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Next entry: This sounds like some rant I’d hear from a paranoid white person in El Paso Previous entry: Avoid The Noid

ABC’s “What Would You Do” tackles tolerance of gay couple at NJ sports bar

LGBTTelevision

In one of its “What Would You Do” experiments, ABC News set up hidden cameras in a New Jersey sports bar and sent in a real gay couple to go in, have some drinks, and act as affectionate to one another as a planted straight couple on the other side of the bar. It was done two ways—one with behavior that would be considered plain jane PDA, and another where they were doing a bit more nuzzling.

ABC also planted one homophobic instigator who muttered anti-gay comments, looking for support from some Joe Six Packs in the bar. Watch and see what happens. Here’s a snippet from The Advocate‘s piece on the experiment.


Overwhelmingly, the real patrons showed intolerance for snide remarks like his, even as the gay couple escalated their touching and affection.

“I would rather have 12 of you than four of him,” said one man apologetically to the couple.

“Seriously, this is not your [expletive] bar!” yelled an emotional woman to one harasser, in defense of the gay couple.

Later, a real patron who did harass the couple seemed to retract his views after the hidden cameras were revealed. An expert interviewed by ABC News attributed his transformation to the surprising peer pressure to be tolerant.

“Tolerance has become an American value,” she said. “People work hard to give others the impression that they believe similarly, even when they don’t.”

Watching that backpedaling harasser didn’t give me any sense that the man was actually tolerant at all; he seemed like a deer in the headlights. It would have been interesting to see his footage played back to him for comment.

While I’m grateful that this couple experienced little more than a few rude comments (that were derided by some patrons), I seriously doubt that the same result would occur in a Bible Belt Good Old Boy bar. That couple would have placed themselves in danger, quite frankly.

The expert who uttered the sweeping “tolerance has become an American value” is smoking something strong or simply wants to believe this to be true. It truly depends on where you are in America. New Jersey is a state with civil unions on the books; there has been discussions about equality issues that permeated the Garden State over the last few years. ABC needs to try that experiment in places where there are no legal protections for that couple, and open intolerance is easier to find—the deep South, “Pennsyltucky,” or rural areas of Ohio or North Carolina, then let’s see what that expert has to say.

If they really want to test American tolerance, how about selecting a interracial or minority gay or lesbian couple to participate in that experiment? Based on the behavior of the McCain/Palin mobs all around the country last year, I have little faith that a gay couple entering a “average Joe” bar under those circumstances would go as smoothly as the one that aired on ABC.

 

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 08:22 AM • (42) Comments

Well, hey, it doesn’t hurt to have ABC reinforce the idea that it isn’t okay for people to hate - or, at least, harass.

In my neck of the woods, interracial woudn’t matter much - but my community had a freeman neighborhood going back to colonial times and is now the sort of place where interracial couples bring up their families.  When we went to a suburban laser tag emporium for my son’s birthday, we seriously diversified the place - and, yet, no body said anything stupid.  Despite extreme examples to the contrary, youth culture in the much of the urban areas has been conditioned to STFU with the hate, and some of this has undoubtably rubbed off on the parents.

Which is exactly what idiots like Brian Camenker fear most - not only are kids learning that there are all types of families including gay ones, they scold their parents.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  09:16 AM

Pam, I fucking hate it when coastal liberals turn their hatred of the flyovers into overblown predictions of intolerance.  It really ain’t that bad out there.

Comment #2: Reece  on  03/26  at  09:37 AM

I wonder if ABC would have gotten the same results in another state like Utah or Alabama.  And where in NJ was the test filmed at?  The NYC suburbs? Or another part of NJ?

My opinion is that the results would not be the same in another part of the country, not that I’m stereotyping or anything.

Comment #3: phinky  on  03/26  at  10:27 AM

Not in Utah phinky - there are no bars.

Comment #4: Ms Kate  on  03/26  at  10:30 AM

Pam’s a coastal liberal? I thought she lived in NC?

...I suppose it has a coast, but it ain’t exactly Ivory Tower Central.

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/26  at  10:39 AM

Still,

I want to believe that “tolerance has become an American value,” even if it is only in parts of America. And I think it is pretty clear that those parts are growing, and the other parts are shrinking. I am from NJ, and when I started reading the post I was worried—It sounds like it had a happy ending. Can’t we just be happy for that?

Comment #6: Ropty  on  03/26  at  10:41 AM

““I would rather have 12 of you than four of him,” said one man apologetically to the couple. “

This seems like an unusually complicated statement - I wonder if he was trying to be nice and couldn’t quite come up with anything.

Comment #7: Billingham  on  03/26  at  10:53 AM

Of course tolerance has become an American value - and it has been for quite a while now, in theory and lip-service. All you have to do is look at all the “I’m not a homophobe, but…” and “deserve equal treatment, but…” anti-gay sentiments. Even the vast majority of the worst of the worst have to have some sort of “not against them, it’s the slippery slope” or “we have to protect the family, even if a few gay people don’t get their way” spins on it in order for it to be publicly acceptable.

What’s heartening is that this is really beginning to trickle down to situations like this one ABC set up. We are right at the tipping point where the majority (who really could care less one way or the other) are switching from sitting quietly when gay people are defended and chiming in when they are harassed to the reverse - and the true bigots will be as shocked when they are suddenly hanging out in the breeze as the true racists were a generation earlier.

I think people need to stop lumping the Midwest in with the Rural south on this. The Midwest is far more gay-tolerant than coastal people seem to assume. It may not (yet) have translated to legislative support, but large parts of the Midwest are pretty okay on a person-to-person case basis. As the national consensus shifts, they’ll be right there.

And yeah, it’ll take a while, and yeah, like racism, it’ll keep simmering away.

Comment #8: Lymis  on  03/26  at  10:57 AM

This seems like an unusually complicated statement - I wonder if he was trying to be nice and couldn’t quite come up with anything.

Probably drunk and feeling sentimental. I think it’s actually kind of sweet, unreduced ratio and all.

Comment #9: junk science  on  03/26  at  11:14 AM

Tolerance my foot, even the ones that spoke up said that they were fine with it because the couple was not being “overly affectionate”.  That is not tolerance.  Straight couples swap spit all the time in public and no one complains if they are “overly affectionate”. All this segment did is prove how far we still have to go.  Even the woman that got upset and ran out of the bar, was like I love gay people. Ummm does that no sound like some kind of fetish to you?  How about you respect the right of gays and lesbians to live lives free of harassment and violence?  This video was 7 shades of yuck.

Comment #10: womanistmusings  on  03/26  at  11:15 AM

...I suppose it has a coast, but it ain’t exactly Ivory Tower Central.

The Research Triangle is.

Comment #11: Ben D.  on  03/26  at  11:18 AM

Even the woman that got upset and ran out of the bar, was like I love gay people. Ummm does that no sound like some kind of fetish to you?  How about you respect the right of gays and lesbians to live lives free of harassment and violence?

Over-analysis of people who say things in bars on cameras has now been acheived.

Comment #12: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  11:18 AM

Lymis—The midwest comprises more than one culture. Hell, even one state will have various cultures of tolerance in it. You can’t compare Michigan to, say, Nebraska. You can’t even compare Michigan to itself (“are you talking about detroit and mid-michigan, or are you talking about western michigan? Or the UP which is a whole ‘nother ballgame?”)

There are parts of the midwest that are gay-positive, but there are parts of the midwest that are so deeply in the religious crazies that I would be afraid if my gay friends had to take a road trip out that way.

Comment #13: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/26  at  11:24 AM

actually, i’m smack dab in the middle of the mid west (southwestern ohio), and it goes both ways here. i’d say about 85% of the time, gay couples are treated exactly the same as straight couples (which does not neccessarily mean that excessive pda is tolerated in anyone). however, we did recently have an incident where a gay kid and his friend were walking across the college campus, met up with some former high school aquaintances, and where subsequently beaten up when said aquaintances realized they were gay. but this was followed the next day by a decent sized student protest, and we have periodic “gorrilla gay bar” nights, to help the city gain a better acceptance of the gay community (which is actually pretty large here).

so, we’re not post-homophobia by any means, but we aren’t exactly living in the dark ages out here either.

Comment #14: akzidenzgrotesk  on  03/26  at  11:39 AM

i meant to say “guerilla gay bar,” but spell check got me.

Comment #15: akzidenzgrotesk  on  03/26  at  11:41 AM

I can honestly say that this has been seen first hand by me in Texas.  Grand Prairie, TX as a matter of fact, home of that Republican Club idjit. 

My parents are regulars at a local townie bar, working class, Avg Joe.  My sister has brought her girlfriend(s) to various family functions held at the bar (birthday/anniversary parties and the like) as she should, and nary a word is said by the other patrons.  We’d kick someone’s ass if they did.  My sister dances to slow songs, holds hands and pretty much acts just like I do with Keith.  We’re not a big PDA kinda family but she does what any of the rest of us do and gets the same indulgent “aren’t they a cute couple” and “isn’t it so nice seeing young love” grins that Keith and I get.  (It’s embarrassing and annoying and patronizing but in the usual “God! Aren’t parents just aggravating!” kind of way.)

But, I wonder if that’s because she’s the daughter of regulars.  You know, “one of ours” kinda thing.  I wonder if the reaction would be the same if it were a gay male couple and folks who are not related in any kind of way to a regular.  (And any kind of PDA beyond a peck on the lips would be considered inappropriate in ANY sort of couple in this place.)

Comment #16: ChristinaM33  on  03/26  at  11:42 AM

On ‘overly affectionate’: I think the reality is most of us ARE annoyed at ‘overly affectionate’ straight couples, however there is a societal taboo on speaking up here because Love is Sacred, as long as it is heterosexual. Now when a coupling that DOES NOT have this sort of special rights afforded by social customs do the same annoying shit most people don’t like, they are willing to kick a fuss. It’s not that they necessarily dislike it more coming from gays, but that there is no social convention telling them to shut the hell up in this case.

Furthermore, I think of this comment as maybe in some cases coming out of genuine ignorance and the fact that stereotypical gays are thought of (by people who never met any… well, knowingly) as way more flamboyantly in your face than that. So it could just be a ‘oh, but they’re NOT actually being inappropriate like I thought they would necessarily be’ realization. Maybe somebody opened their mind a little. (To be fair, if the only time I saw any heterosexuals was on TV during Mardi Gras, I’d probably think breeders are pretty silly…)

The pace of social progress is maddeningly slow indeed, womanistmusings. I’ll take what little hope I can get.

Comment #17: BlackBloc  on  03/26  at  12:07 PM

Pam, I fucking hate it when coastal liberals turn their hatred of the flyovers into overblown predictions of intolerance.  It really ain’t that bad out there.

What is Reece smoking? I live in NC! I don’t have to drive too far outside of the Triangle to find stars and bars, gun racks and intolerance. One trip I made to Maggie Valley in the mountains several years ago was downright terrifying; a souvenir shop I went into had T-shirts with burning crosses on them, and some patrons didn’t seem to like my presence there for some reason.

The whole point is that parts of states in flyover country are tolerant, and others are quite frightening. And that also goes for Blue states. I’m sure that people from California and New York could mention towns they would be concerned about the safety of that couple in the experiment.

Comment #18: Pam Spaulding  on  03/26  at  12:14 PM

Pam: A few years back when I was still living in Philly, I’d take my motorcycle out on weekends to and head west on the state roads. During one really lovely drive through the mountains, I was having my “why do I have to live in the city and kill myself in that rat race? Could I throttle back my life and get a job out here and live in this lovely setting… how would I do that?” and just as I was beginning to seriously think of saving up for a move out of the Big Complicated City I passed by a party store where a dude had stalled his pick-up truck in the driveway so that he could get out and adjust the confederate flag that was hanging in the bed so that it would fly straight and I thought…. “well, back to the city I go!”

I did get my happy ending eventually, I was able to find a smaller pond that’s still very liberal and up in beautiful mountainous country, but damn.

Comment #19: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/26  at  12:25 PM

I don’t have to drive too far outside of the Triangle to find stars and bars, gun racks and intolerance.

Yeah, you just have to go to an NCSU frat party.

(I’m a NCSU grad student…)

Comment #20: Jeff  on  03/26  at  12:41 PM

Pam wrote:

While I’m grateful that this couple experienced little more than a few rude comments (that were derided by some patrons), I seriously doubt that the same result would occur in a Bible Belt Good Old Boy bar. That couple would have placed themselves in danger, quite frankly.

In a blog that prides itself on trashing stereotypes, you have just posted a stereotype.  Run the experiment first, then tell us the results.

Comment #21: Dana  on  03/26  at  12:51 PM

a Bible Belt Good Old Boy bar

What’s the stereotype here? Are you saying these don’t exist?  I can point you to a few around here if you’d like, and my Birmingham, Alabama-born wife can as well. Heck, I can tell you a good one about our own impromptu experiment in intolerance that occurred right in downtown Birmingham in a McDonalds.

Comment #22: Pam Spaulding  on  03/26  at  01:00 PM

I don’t want to speak for anyone, but I would guess it’s less that these bars exist and more the “would have placed themselves in danger” that’s offensive.  Sure it’s a possibility, but “would have” does imply an amount of certainty ... maybe “might have” would be more accurate.

Comment #23: BonAppetit  on  03/26  at  01:12 PM

Sigh… Even in Seattle I’ve had to become more and more militant about telling the bigots to back off.  It’s rather discouraging to find myself yelling at an older POC to mind his own damned buisness and stop following and harassing some poor lesbian couple who are doing nothing more than holding hands.

I’m getting too damned old for this and these damned “conservative” kids need to get off my damned lawn.

Comment #24: cynickal  on  03/26  at  01:20 PM

Looks like the bar is in Somerset County, NJ, which is in Central New Jersey. I was surprised that it wasn’t further south or west, since there weren’t any people of color in that bar. I thought “Where are they that there are no black people?” I think that part of the state is still considered part of the NY metropolitan area, but that’s a technicality. I mean, it’s closer to NYC than it is to Philly, but it’s not like a suburb of NYC. You can’t see NYC from Somerset County. So maybe there would have been a different reaction if they were further south or west, or maybe even in Sussex county (represented by *ew* Scott Garrett).

Comment #25: Emily  on  03/26  at  01:46 PM

In a blog that prides itself on trashing stereotypes, you have just posted a stereotype.

Define Good Old Boy Bar. Then compare with Pam’s. (I’m sufficiently satisfied that we all think Bible Belt is a description, not a stereotype).

Comment #26: gwangung  on  03/26  at  02:16 PM

BonAppetit identified my point correctly.

Comment #27: Dana  on  03/26  at  02:18 PM

Those of you who are deriding Pam’s comments:

Do any of you get out to the country in Jesusland?  Because, um, I have family out there.  I would never conceive of running this experiment in the bars in their towns, because I would not believe it to be ethical to subject the gentlemen doing it to the danger they would face.

Comment #28: Punditus Maximus  on  03/26  at  02:34 PM

There is also a dramatic schism in what people will “tolerate” (I’ve always hated that term when it is used to talk about difference) in public and what they will say in private.

Progress is not an either/or situation. While it is heartening that some people don’t feel as comfortable with overt hatred towards same sex couples, I am hesitant to see it as an indication that there is an overall change in opinion.

Comment #29: HooksInMyHead  on  03/26  at  02:38 PM

Dana, you make a good point, but the likely outcome of the experiment can be predicted by existing results. For example, as has been pointed out earlier, New Jersey is among the most tolerant of environments for gay couples (they have civil unions and anti-discrimination laws about which you have blogged before). Meanwhile, most Southern bible-belt states are not particularly tolerant - AR, for example, passed spiteful legislation last year preventing gay couples from adopting by a 58-42 margin. Now let’s say a gay couple walks into a bar in Secaucus and another gay couple walks into a bar in Blytheville. Who’s more likely to run into homophobes?

Sure, anti-gay hate crimes occur in Newark, NJ as well as in Newton, NC. But given the known geographical distribution of anti-gay sentiment, what locale is more likely to generate a homophobic incident? And given the justification for anti-gay sentiment most often given by homophobes is religious - would you expect homophobia out of a more religious or less religious community?

We’re not hating on religious Southern country folk here. We’re just stating the obvious - that a bar filled with religious Southern country folk is going to be more likely to have an anti-gay nutball in it than a bar in suburban Jersey (or even eastern PA, for that matter).

And who said we like to trash stereotypes, you… you… OK, I’m struggling to think of stereotypes for Pennsylvanians here… screw it, I’ll just go back to my fried chicken and mint julep.

Comment #30: Jeff  on  03/26  at  02:39 PM

I don’t want to speak for anyone, but I would guess it’s less that these bars exist and more the “would have placed themselves in danger” that’s offensive.  Sure it’s a possibility, but “would have” does imply an amount of certainty ... maybe “might have” would be more accurate.

Oh, shut the fuck up. Really. Some of us have been there and been in that danger. You’re the one that’s talking out your ass.

Comment #31: asdf  on  03/26  at  02:41 PM

OK, I’m struggling to think of stereotypes for Pennsylvanians here…

Cheesesteak-eating revolution primates?

Comment #32: asdf  on  03/26  at  02:45 PM

If they really want to test American tolerance, how about selecting a interracial or minority gay or lesbian couple to participate in that experiment?

I’m turned off by the idea of “testing” American tolerance.  You never know who is going to walk into a bar in any town in any state.  It’s one bar on one night.  Can we really extrapolate a national attitude toward homophobia based on it?  I suppose so, but I’d rather we not, and instead use something more reliable and credible, like voting patterns.

Comment #33: deep6  on  03/26  at  03:07 PM

I’m turned off by the idea of “testing” American tolerance.  You never know who is going to walk into a bar in any town in any state.  It’s one bar on one night.  Can we really extrapolate a national attitude toward homophobia based on it?

This, thank you.

This isn’t science. This whole report is just made-for-TV fluff.

Would a southern Bible Belt bar accept gays? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the location, depends on the population, depends on the couple. Depends on how many drinks people have had that night. Depends on a million things. Saying that one NJ bar was tolerant-y at one time means nothing.

Comment #34: Essie Elephant  on  03/26  at  03:26 PM

This was a very interesting talk about cheating and societal norms, which I imagine would extend to deciding which norms to enforce (or, in the case of shouting down the bigot, which enforcements should be vetoed):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUdsTizSxSI

Another difference by region with this experiment:  Having lived in NYC and Chicago, I’ve noticed that vocally enforcing norms is more common in NYC.  This can range to fairly harmless (for example, believing that someone talking in a normal voice on a cell phone on public transit is an encroachment of your space, even though a conversation at the same volume with another person actually present wouldn’t be considered an issue) to having a real impact on other’s day to day lives (as in the example in this post).  This is completely anecdotal, though.

Comment #35: NY Expat  on  03/26  at  03:36 PM

Straight couples swap spit all the time in public and no one complains if they are “overly affectionate”.

I do.  Get a room!  Ugh.

Comment #36: keshmeshi  on  03/26  at  03:39 PM

About the only things you’re going to get most New Jersyans to get hostile over are property taxes and auto insurance.
When the Leg repealed the Death Penalty in 2007, the rightwingnuts predicted the populace would be horrified - Nope - if it doesn’t raise my property taxes or make my auto insurance increase - I’ve got too many other things to worry about to care.

Comment #37: CParis  on  03/26  at  04:42 PM

CParis: That’s about accurate.

FYI, all ya’ll, WWYD did the same experiment in - I believe - downtown Birmingham, AL, on a public bench in broad daylight. I don’t remember the episode too well, as it’s been a while, but several people called the police (who, of course, knew what was going on). OTOH, there were several people who defended them, as well.

By the same token, living in the South myself, there are places where my wife and I hold hands, places where we don’t (most of them) but feel free to otherwise be ourselves, and - outside the metropolitan areas - places where we don’t linger after dark. I personally know folk who weren’t as circumspect and paid the price - either verbal harassment or, in several cases, getting beaten. My wife was harassed and refused service at a metro area gas station; the proprietor shoved her out the door of the store, hurling epithets. (No, she did not instigate; she did, however, ask politely if she could just get some gas, please, after he told her to get her brown, gender ambiguous self out of his store, since he didn’t serve people like that.) She called the police, who happily arrested him, since he proudly admitted to what he did.

For better or worse, I’m so white/straight/conservative looking that no one gives me a second glance if I’m by myself. Usually, I wind up hearing bigots speak openly to me assuming I agree with them. It’s chilling. I’d like to say that I always speak up, but often I just don’t feel safe - or maybe I just don’t have the balls, so to speak.

Comment #38: madinscriber  on  03/26  at  05:02 PM

Jersey Rocks! just sayin’

The population of every part of Jersey except the SE part, where the Pine Barrens are (beautiful place, btw) consists of a mishmash of ethnics who’s families came over from NYC or Philly, taunting each other about our heritage is SOP growing up, I think that sort of immunizes us from getting vicious about this. Everyone wants to avoid being called the dumb mick, dimwitted polack, simple-minded wop, block headed nazi, macho hispanic, or worst of all, a redneck. Didn’t know what a cracker was ‘till I moved to FL, god, I’ve had dogs that were smarter than some of the people I run into. Well, I shouldn’t say that, a HS diploma here is probably equivalent to parochial school 8th grade in Bayonne. lack of opportunity does not equate with dim bulbs.

Comment #39: The Pale Scot  on  03/26  at  05:07 PM

That is what I miss about the metro NY/NJ area - so many different people squashed together have to learn to get along, or annihilate one another, so there’s a good deal of tolerance, if not actual acceptance (which is harder to come by, in general). Alas, it’s about the only thing I miss about living up there.

Comment #40: madinscriber  on  03/26  at  05:56 PM

I had an interesting conversation today with someone on the phone at work today.  Work for me is a part-time job at a Christian church in Albuquerque.  It’s a fairly tolerant church (I’m an atheist) and a decent sort of place to work.

Anyhoo, I get a call from a guy who just moved to the area and is looking for a church.  He says he has a few questions, and I cringe because I figure he has theological questions, and the pastor is out of the office, leaving me, the resident godless infidel to stammer stupidly on the phone.

Instead he asks about the church’s politics, using the words “liberal” and “conservative,” and I think I detected a touch of distaste when he says liberal.  He notes that he is conservative.

So I say, “Well, I wouldn’t call the congregation liberal, but conservative would be a big stretch.”

As this point, he pauses, and then begins, cautiously, in a stage aside voice, “Well, see I’m from Fort Collins, and I recently attended a church here, and,” and pauses, and continues, sort of nervously, “everyone was gay.” 

Ah, so that’s the problem, I think, “teh gay.”  I tell him, “Well, we do have a couple of gay couples, but the majority are heterosexual.”  Meaning, you probably won’t catch the gay kooties.

Realizing I probably wasn’t an ally, he stammers, “Well, it’s not that I have a problem with gays in church.  It just makes me feel uncomfortable.”

Snerk.  Now if I wasn’t at work, I would have had to say, “Ah, you don’t have a problem with gays in church, so long as it’s not your church.  Perhaps you should look into why the mere presence of gays makes you uncomfortable.  I bet it’s kinda dark in that closet, eh?”

Instead I just reiterated the fact that some gays do attend the church (one is a minister who sometimes does guest preacher duty.)

Anyhow, I found it simultaneously heartening and very disheartening.  I’m glad he at least had the good sense to recognize that he had to pad his bigotry with “I don’t…but,” and yet, he was still a bigot.

Comment #41: adobedragon  on  03/26  at  07:34 PM

I’m reminded of white people complaining about the n-word: that’s what you find objectionable? That she suggested there are parts of the country that aren’t bastions of tolerance? Not the fact of it, but the suggestion? It’s a great way to make the conversation about something other than that people in the next state, the next county, the next block, the next room might be homophobes. No, the really objectionable thing is that Pam had the temerity to say so.

Comment #42: Hershele Ostropoler  on  03/26  at  08:57 PM
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