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Next entry: The GOP: Not Good At Internets Previous entry: Scenes from an induced misery culture

And we have a winner!

For the most asinine argument against Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize. 

Interesting that she would quote Mother Teresa as a prize-winner, using a quote that I would point out is a barely-veiled threat in a country where the attempts to “stop” abortion involve threats,  harassment, bullying, bombing, and shooting doctors.  So to say that there won’t be peace until we stop abortion in that context is yet another threat, and it’s blaming the victim, too, by saying that anti-choicers are forced to harass, threaten, bully, bomb, and shoot until abortion “ends”.  If they really want peace, they’ll stop showing up at clinics and screaming at women trying to get abortion care, stop calling 40% of American women murderers, stop running websites that give personal information about doctors so they can stalk them and potentially shoot them, and stop encouraging angry, broken men to view women who control their fertility as the source of all their problems.  Which is another thing that Rachel Campos-Duffy is doing.  The anti-choice tendency to hold women who have abortions/use contraception as the source of all evil in world makes space for broken, fucked-up people to hold women, doctors, and the pro-choice community at large responsible for their own personal failures.  That doesn’t do much for peace, as we know, but of course, I’d imagine that Campos-Duffy would suggest that we could all make the pain go away by merely submitting to their demands. 

And that’s why I see the larger cultural tendency to treat anti-choicers like serious people instead of unhinged misogynists and contributing to the rape culture.  Why on earth do we not immediately denounce people who are willing to make arguments that sound a whole lot like, “Give your sex organs to us so we can do what we want with them, or we will keep threatening and occasionally acting out violently, so you know we’re serious.”  I’d suggest it’s because our culture hasn’t completely embraced the idea that a woman’s sexuality belongs solely to herself and no one else.

Of course, that Campos-Duffy blamed women who have abortions for the existence of war itself right in front of Whoopi Goldberg shows how much the anti-choice mentality wipes out any understanding that women are human beings.  Goldberg is a victim herself of anti-choice policies, since she had to self-induce an abortion with a coat hanger in junior high school.  That’s the world where abortion is “stopped”, by the way.  At all times, we must remember when anti-choicers talk about “stopping” abortion, they mean stopping safe abortion.  There must be much more severe consequences for their female scapegoats, and a gruesome death by septic abortion fits the bill.  Wishing that on women in front of a victim of these attitudes is just, yeah. 

Of course, what she’s doing—-beyond blaming all the world’s ills on women who have had abortions—-is engaging the right wing noise machine’s favorite tactic, which is throwing mud against the wall and seeing what sticks.  They don’t really give a shit if their complaints about this Nobel Peace Prize make a lick of sense.  The idea is to create a lot of smoke, so that people mistakenly think there’s fire.  There’s no drawbacks to sitting around generating nonsensical accusations like you were a computer program designed to put words together randomly to see if a sentence is eventually created by accident.  You see how this works on this segment.  Campos-Duffy blames a huge percentage of the world’s women for all war because they had abortions, and instead of saying, “Are you absolutely fucking crazy?  Do you just realize what you said?”, they all murmur about the greatness of Mother Teresa.  There are no consequences for saying something that turns 40% of American women and god only knows what percentage of women worldwide—-and women sitting at that table—-into demons that have the magical power to cause war and strife by not gestating.  Hell, she’ll probably get invited back to spout some more hate speech towards women who have had abortions.  No one is willing to call bullshit, and so wingnuts can spin it all day and night, in hopes of creating the illusion that some of it might have some value.

There’s a dark irony to all this, as well.  If the world suited the anti-choice philosophy, and every woman had as many children as she possibly could, that would be the worst possible thing for world peace.  The mass disease, drought, and starvation that would result as the world’s people grew exponentially past what the world resources could handle would basically force people to wage war on each other to steal their resources for sheer survival.  There’s two ways that nature can control a population so that it doesn’t outstrip resources—-lowered fertility or mass death.  The former has always seemed more humane to me, but of course, it doesn’t do much to demonstrate the virility of permanently insecure men.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:35 AM • (136) Comments

If we have to blame anyone for wars, then it should be the Quiverfull parents.  I mean, they actually refer to their children as arrows, and admit that they are preparing for some eminent holy war.  And even in mainstream families, any unwanted and resented child is more likely to become violent as an adult.

Comment #1: bananacat  on  10/13  at  11:33 AM

Well, there’s not enough of them to really blame for wars.  But it is really rich of people that come from a war-loving right wing mentality to act like they’re an authority on who deserves the Peace Prize.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  11:41 AM

I’m not going to form an opinion until Puck weighs in.

Comment #3: norbizness  on  10/13  at  11:43 AM

Amanda,

I don’t actually blame them.  My point is that if we insist on blaming reproduction choices for wars, then it would make more sense to blame the kind of parents Mother Theresa would want us all to be.  Of course, wars aren’t caused by reproductive choices, but by a bunch of power-hungry adults who want to rule the world by force because they have nothing else to offer.

Comment #4: bananacat  on  10/13  at  11:56 AM

The View.  *shudder*

That righteous, famous 22 minutes that Jon Stewart spent ripping apart Tucker and Begala on Crossfire?  It goes double or triple for The View, and approaches logarithmic progression when Hasselbeck or whatever else conservative celebrity substitute opens their mouth.

Comment #5: idiosynchronic  on  10/13  at  12:02 PM

“Why on earth do we not immediately denounce people who are willing to make arguments that sound a whole lot like, “Give your sex organs to us so we can do what we want with them, or we will keep threatening and occasionally acting out violently, so you know we’re serious.” I’d suggest it’s because our culture hasn’t completely embraced the idea that a woman’s sexuality belongs solely to herself and no one else.”

‘Cause there are too many people like Hephaeston (from the cupcake thread) who pretend to need a good philosophical reason why it’s okay to abort an embryo, along the lines of when “life starts” and “what’s the difference between a 10-minute old newborn and a fetus that will be delivered in 10-minutes”, and other such bullshit.  None of which ever seems to involve any actual, living, breathing, human women except as an incidental vessels.

Not only does a woman’s sexuality apparently not belong to herself, her body isn’t hers either, and, given much of the rhetoric around repealing women’s right to vote and other ridiculous ideas, it seems even a woman’s mind is not her own.

I think this is when the failure of the ERA and the work of hypocritical traitors like Phyllis Schlafly, “Dr.” Laura, Ann Coulter, etc., really pisses me off the most…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  12:02 PM

I don’t think anyone can make an asinine argument against Obama winning the prize since he was given the prize for asinine reasons. It’s not his fault he won, but he should gracefully decline.

Comment #7: Lesly  on  10/13  at  12:11 PM

“I don’t think anyone can make an asinine argument against Obama winning the prize since he was given the prize for asinine reasons.”

Yeah!  Dick Cheney should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize!...

(...hopefully this person has been distracted long enough for the orderlies to give them the injection they missed this morning…)

Comment #8: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  12:14 PM

While we’re inventing completely made-up bullshit reasons why we don’t have world peace, I would like to say that the reason we don’t have world peace is because Duke Nukem Forever never came out. Think of all of that violent aggression that could have been re-directed into a videogame if 3D Realms and Apogee had just stuck to it. Oh, and of course everyone on earth would need a computer capable of playing the game, but hey, if outlawing abortion would completely cease all abortion, then I can declare that everyone on earth could have a nice AlienWare box to play Duke Nukem Forever.

This is fun!

Comment #9: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  12:21 PM

“Not only does a woman’s sexuality apparently not belong to herself, her body isn’t hers either, and, given much of the rhetoric around repealing women’s right to vote and other ridiculous ideas, it seems even a woman’s mind is not her own.”
Bingo!
If only we childless, abortion-hungry ladies could all be constantly pregnant with our 6th child and announcing it on the View (they are not going to hire you no matter how many f-ing babies you have, rachel) then we would really understand how *nothing compares* to the *total miracle* of *creating life* and how *utterly fulfilling* life becomes when you *do nothing but change diapers and wear dirty sweatpants all day* while married to a fellow *douchebag ex-Real World scab.*

Comment #10: JulieSunday  on  10/13  at  12:21 PM

Yeah, if this idiot looked at Whoopie Goldberg, and told her that it’s blacks on welfare that cause all the wars, the audience would whoop and yell, not because they’re all outraged, but because they’ve been trained to believe that’s not acceptable.

However, this woman does the same thing.

She needs to be told right there that there is no God, and only a blithering idiot would prattle on in the name of an invisible cartoon character. Mother Theresa, although charitable in her life, was seriously misguided in her beliefs.

There, wing-nut, stew over that while we go to commercial, and when we come back from break, we’ll discuss why your God wants 9-year-old boys to be ass-raped in front of their fathers in Iraq, and actually lets it happen. Is your God some kind of sadistic pervert who nurses a galactic stiffy over that?

Close-up on the outraged wingnut.

Jesus, only 6 kids? If she’s so fucking conservative, why is she out doing TV talk shows instead of standing in front of a stove, cooking for her 14 kids and her infallible husband, as Jesus obviously has ordered her to do, and whom she’s sinning against by actually opening her mouth.

Comment #11: I Heart Puppies  on  10/13  at  12:24 PM

Well yeah to the main point and I’d go further. It isn’t the idea that women have independent sexuality and consent that are the main bafflement on the right. It’s the idea that women have agency and rights. These are people who still view women as property and have difficulty letting that go (see fuss over “traditional marriage”). Of course there should be consequences if your property thinks it’s a person and tries to have sex or have ambitions and there should be nice lodestones called children to keep them busy while you bang your office property (secretary). They have difficulty with the idea that women exist and are in fact human beings. Racists have the same problem with blacks who they envision as some kind of renegade tractor and/or autonomous weaponry.

On your last sentence, that’s also why they hate peace. War allows a handy way to demonstrate the virility of perpetually insecure men. You don’t even need to risk one’s own self to achieve that masculinity as long as you support it and you can tell poor men that it’s the only “real” way to demonstrate their virility as long as they don’t come back and start bawling about the senseless slaughter.

It’s why it’s funny seeing them freak out over the prize. They hate peace and they were getting so close to a perpetual hard-on machine and then Obama told them no and the world basically said, I like that, now keep telling them that and now their favorite toy the media actually has to talk about the hard-on machine like it’s a bad thing in reporting on this and they can’t flat out say “but our hard-ons” without revealing the massive insecurity. Thus flak and sputtering.

Comment #12: Cerberus  on  10/13  at  12:25 PM

Well they tried that whole “force women to have as many babies as possible” thing in Iran and you see how well that worked. Part of the reason there were so many protests there this summer is that those children who the government thought they could control decided instead to take to the streets and fight for their right to vote. That’s what is waiting for the Quiverfull parents—at least one of their kids will be an atheist, or gay, or marry someone outside of their race or have an abortion. The statistics all but guarantee it.

Anti-choicers like this blithering idiot don’t pay enough attention to what is actually going on in the world to realize that societies with the most oppressive treatment of women are the ones that turn out the most terrorists. Or maybe they do know that and they are hoping that by ending abortion rights they can create more Timothy McVeigh’s and Eric Rudolph’s.

Comment #13: DC Fem  on  10/13  at  12:26 PM

Now I’m pissed.

The normal wingnut would answer my query with, “It’s not up to us to understand God’s reasons for wanting 9-year-old boys ass-raped in front of their fathers”.

However, if that’s the case, why do wingnuts worship a deity they can’t possibly understand? If they are so clueless, maybe they’re worshipping an inter-galactic being who is pure evil, and needs to be stopped. They can’t possibly understand if that’s the case, so maybe they should just stop. Just sit down on the curb for awhile, and stop talking. Stop preaching.

Maybe this misogynistic, invisible being grows stronger from prayer, and if we stop praying, all wars between competing religiously motivated populations would stop, and this evil spirit would wither and go away. Find another planet to haunt, and tell guys who waited well into their 100’s to have a kid, to kill that kid just to make sure they “believe” in that Him.

And people were actually burned at the stake for questionning this bullshit.

That woman should be punched in the face, and made to explain why God wants her punched in the face.

Comment #14: I Heart Puppies  on  10/13  at  12:34 PM

I saw this a few days ago, on a site called “Emails from crazy people”.
———

‘David writes, “This was an email in response to our University’s latest mailing of our Alumni Magazine. I have removed all specifics to protect the guilty.”

I’m skeptical of this gentleman’s assertions, but he seems so sure of himself. I think I’m going to have to listen to the ladies a bit more carefully. Who are they, really?

You should know that before I throw in the trash your stupid “alumnus” magazine, some of us have good education and recognize evil when we see it. Where is the report questioning the awarding of degrees in Sociology, Women’s Studies, and the like? Where is the article questioning the renaming of the Business Administration school to something from outer space like management? There isn’t such a thing as “management”, it’s just a title awarded to employees instead of giving them a pay raise. Come on Uof__, get with reality. Jeepers. You’re looking like a bunch of fools.

Look, its time to realize that woman aren’t people. They just repeat yesterday all over again each day. If you listen to their conversations, you will note the absence of verbs. They can’t do life. They can’t do Earth. You shouldn’t have all your staff positions occupied by non-humans. It shows in your Alumnus magazine. Fake nonsense is not a good idea.

Class of ‘65
Submitted By: David’
< http://emailsfromcrazypeople.com/2009/10/06/women-dont-verb-good/ >

——-
Now I realize David is of the older generation soon to die, being that he graduated college when I was 2, and I’m a *grandmother*, but still, the idea that this kinda attitude still exists? Scary. Here’s hoping his ideas die with him.

Comment #15: KMac  on  10/13  at  12:51 PM

I really, honestly think we should just quit acting as though the anti-choicers and wingnuts are looking for reasonable debate.  They aren’t.  They’re trying to be as inflammatory and horrible as possible while maintaining a thin veneer of civility (in some cases, very thin).  I’ve started according them as much respect as they accord me, and if that gets me called a bitch and a commie, so be it.  I’m just sick of acting as if they have anything useful to contribute to the discourse.

Comment #16: GeekGirlsRule  on  10/13  at  01:06 PM

Changing the subject somewhat; if they’re going to have a Nobel Peace Prize, why can’t they have a Nobel Freedom Prize as well? Give one to FDR and Churchill for winning WW 2, Truman for the Marshall plan, and Reagan for winning the Cold War.

Needless to say, Jimmy Carter wouldn’t come within a light year of winning such a prize ...

Comment #17: EricJG  on  10/13  at  01:12 PM

...and from an alternate universe where up is down, blue is read, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength, comes our old friend EricJG…

Comment #18: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  01:18 PM

Changing the subject somewhat more, why does my ear hurt when the filling in my top right molar hurts? I wonder if Estes Kefauver had that problem?

Comment #19: I Heart Puppies  on  10/13  at  01:18 PM

Of course, EricJG, getting the Israelis and Egyptians to sign a peace treaty shouldn’t count for a freedom prize, as war is freedom, after all…...................................

Comment #20: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/13  at  01:19 PM

This actually made me wish that petulant soak Christopher Hitchens had made a sudden appearance and given this superstitious harridian both barrels.  Sure, Hitchens is a drunken misogynist and unrepentant neocon creep, but he harbors a legendary, well-researched contempt for Mother Theresa and boneheaded religious mysticism and it’s been years since he put a deserving target in his crosshairs.

Comment #21: Sour Kraut  on  10/13  at  01:20 PM

DC Fem, Iran has never had a quiverful movement.  The religious leadership adopted family planning with alacrity during the mid-eighties.  Thus, the rest of the post doesn’t really make sense.

Comment #22: shah8  on  10/13  at  01:26 PM

Why am I not surprised that Mother Theresa, the “charitable” “saintly” woman who denied the poor pain medication and told cancer patients their pain was Jesus kissing them, can be trotted out to support a worldview that denies women are human beings?

The warped old bat probably found something profoundly “holy” and “beautiful” in the prolonged death of women from botched abortions, with their wombs septic and their innards hanging out their vaginas. The fact that women women would die in childbirth and by botched abortions wouldn’t be a bug or even an incidental benefit for her and her kind, it would be the main feature.

Comment #23: kristin  on  10/13  at  01:27 PM

Hey, EricJG?  You knew already that George Marshall was given the Nobel Peace Prize for the Marshall Plan, right?  Because if you didn’t, that would mean you were, like, spouting off stuff in complete ignorance.  And that couldn’t possibly be, right?

Comment #24: KeithM  on  10/13  at  01:35 PM

Just to nitpick, “nature” doesn’t control population size with reduced fertility. Populations increase in size until they reach the carrying capacity of the environment unless they are prevented from doing so by outside forces. Population size is controlled through density-dependent and density-independent factors. Density-dependent factors include things like food availability while density-independent factors include things like the weather. We have the unique ability to control our own population size through reduced fertility. So more accurately, either we can control our own population size via lowered fertility or we can let nature do it for us by allowing people to starve and die of disease.

Comment #25: Entomologista  on  10/13  at  01:38 PM

Well, Carter would come a lot closer to winning such a prize than any of the other folks listed, since Nobel prizes aren’t awarded to the dead, like that rotting pile of evil Ronnie Ray-gun.

Comment #26: libdevil  on  10/13  at  01:47 PM

if they’re going to have a Nobel Peace Prize, why can’t they have a Nobel Freedom Prize as well?

And why can’t they have a Nobel Pie of the Year Prize, either?

I know the historical context behind the Nobel prizes means absolutely nothing to you, ericJG, but really, why even attempt this ridiculous chain of “logic” simply to express your view that Reagan was better than Carter?

I know you’re petulant because that bum Carter won an existing Nobel prize that he deserved while St. Ronnie didn’t win a non-existent Nobel prize he might have deserved, but is it really worth making yourself look like an idiot?

Now I don’t really agree with the Nobel Committee’s decision re: Obama, but that objection doesn’t need to rest in the slightest bit on idiotic contentions like yours or like that of this dope on The View. That’s the reason that, unlike the MSM, we’re happy to call BS on you and your partisan hobbyhorses.

The fact is, the one legitimate point that conservatives might make against the Committee’s decision—that this was more a repudiation of Bush/Cheney than an honour for Obama—is one most wingnuts won’t touch because they’ll find that most people in the world would agree that it’s actually a legitimate reason.

Comment #27: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  01:51 PM

“So more accurately, either we can control our own population size via lowered fertility or we can let nature do it for us by allowing people to starve and die of disease.”

We are on course for that latter aren’t we? Always the drama option.

Comment #28: pharmakos  on  10/13  at  01:52 PM

shah 8, they adopted family planning in the 80’s AFTER they realized what a huge drain over population is on the resources of their country.

Comment #29: DC Fem  on  10/13  at  01:59 PM

Amanda,

Yesterday I was reminded how polluted the public conversation about abortion has become.

I was watching a DVD of the third season of Dexter. Dexter’s girlfriend is pregnant, and they both agree that there are no advantages to having the child, only downsides. But the women nevertheless deciides to have the child. Here’s a show in which the protagonist is a SERIAL KILLER, and yet abortion is deemed too controversial to be allowed in the story.

Comment #30: tesseral  on  10/13  at  02:06 PM

tesseral—we haven’t started third season but that’s fucked up. I knew Dexter was going to be a dad because I’ve seen the ads of him holding the baby all over the place, and I expected a degree of Dexter whinging and whining about how he doesn’t have feelings and how being a daddy would be such a bad idea, but considering how much he cares for Paul’s kids, it’s not really a stretch to see him realizing that he would probably love his own just as much as he loves Aster and whats-his-face.

But if the writers honestly made it about him not wanting a new baby and Rita not wanting a new baby and deciding to go through with it anyway because it’s not like they’re a lot of work or anything then I’m not going to watch the rest of the series because that’s some pretty damn lazy writing.

Comment #31: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  02:20 PM

Infants are a plot complication that last over several episodes (and seems to be the theme of this season of Dexter so far); abortions are plot complications for one episode, tops. Because then, life goes on as before, right? So I can see it from a dramatic structure desirability point of view, even as I agree it’s a lazy device to achieve said dramatic structure.

But back to the View—Nobody bothered to counter with the by-now-famous chapter in Freakonomics that posited that the plummeting crime rate of the late 90s -Aughts can be attributed to legal abortions beginning in the 70s? Missed opportunity, that.

Comment #32: benvolio  on  10/13  at  02:39 PM

“Here’s a show in which the protagonist is a SERIAL KILLER, and yet abortion is deemed too controversial to be allowed in the story.”

...well, Dexter’s just a serial killer.  It’s not like he got a blow job in the White House while POTUS or was POTUS when a bunch of Iranian students stormed the US Embassy in Teheran and held the Americans there hostage until Ronnie Reagan was sworn in, or once knew a guy who was an anti-war protestor before you were 12-years old and then you later became POTUS — those are things to be deeply ashamed of.

And were talking about abortion, which great minds agree is the single most awful thing evah!

You know who else had an abortion?  Adolf Hitler, that’s who!  And he probably would have received the Nobel Peace Prize too, if it had been invented yet…

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  02:46 PM

“him not wanting a new baby and Rita not wanting a new baby and deciding to go through with it anyway because it’s not like they’re a lot of work or anything”

Can’t remember exactly how it works but I think a lot of Rita’s ambivalence was Dexter is “nice but can be pretty inconstant so…...” rather than “oh shit” and dexter is more “whatever keeps the show on the road but in a way that doesn’t make it obvious that I pretty much don’t care”. In season 4 the child is a Lot of work.

Comment #34: pharmakos  on  10/13  at  02:47 PM

So, wait.  Abortion being the cause of all war?  Is that like how gays cause hurricanes and atheists create earthquakes?

Comment #35: Zifnab  on  10/13  at  02:52 PM

“Is that like how gays cause hurricanes and atheists create earthquakes?”

Yes, except that abortion causes some people to pretend to be gay, which causes God to become very angry and make hurricanes and earthquakes.  So in the end it’s still abortion that causes it all…

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  03:03 PM

What is it about Obama’s stance on abortion that is “radical”?

Secondly, with respect to what Mother Teresa accomplished, abortion never has (and never will) be a factor in why wars or genocides occur. The most pious of nations (e.g. 16th Century Colonial Spain vis-a-vis the Vatican) are perfectly capable of all manner of atrocities (e.g. the invasion and enslavement of native Mexicans).

Comment #37: CHV  on  10/13  at  03:17 PM

In season 4 the child is a Lot of work

You do realize I was being snarky, which is part of the Pandagonian mission statement, right?

Comment #38: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  03:28 PM

“The most pious of nations (e.g. 16th Century Colonial Spain vis-a-vis the Vatican) are perfectly capable of all manner of atrocities (e.g. the invasion and enslavement of native Mexicans).”

In all seriousness, that illustrates a big problem right there.  The Catholic obsession with “saving” human “souls” outweighed all other considerations.  So they believed they were doing good, regardless of how many people suffered and died in the process.  So they didn’t see what they were doing as being “atrocities”.  And they really didn’t see the aboriginal Americans as truly being people either.

And, of course, they aren’t the only group who allows the ends to justify any means.  Look at the NeoCons and the war in Iraq.  You think even one of those bastards lost an hour’s worth of sleep over the deaths and misery they’ve caused?

If you’re so focused on the righteousness of your ultimate goal that you can’t see the harm you’re doing here and now, then there’s no hope of getting you to understand how wrong what you’re doing really is…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  03:34 PM

Reagan didn’t win the Cold War, Gorbachev ended the Cold War. If a hard-line Stalinist had been in power in the USSR during Reagan’s second term, I shudder to think how that would have ended.

Of course you hate Gorbachev because he deprived you of the biggest Wargasm of All Time by not going out in a blaze of thermonuclear glory.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  03:38 PM

Oh, and the people of Eastern Europe and the USSR ended it, too, at least they had a bigger role in it than Ronnie Ray-gun. But even then if a hard-liner had been leader of the USSR he just would have sent the Soviet tanks into crush them in 1989, and that would have been that.

Comment #41: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  03:40 PM

Give one to FDR and Churchill for winning WW 2

But not Stalin, eh?

We have the unique ability to control our own population size through reduced fertility.

Maybe we’re the only species that makes a conscious choice to control our own fertility, but there are many species out there that control their fertility.  Numerous mammalian predators only allow the alpha male and/or alpha female to mate.  Granted, this is usually because a pack/den of this species can’t raise more than one litter of pups/cubs at a time (and is not directly an attempt to control population) and they do it as a result of natural selection, but the result is the same:  their fertility is minimized.

Comment #42: keshmeshi  on  10/13  at  03:47 PM

Give one to FDR and Churchill for winning WW 2
But not Stalin, eh?

Fun fact: The Soviets lost as many men just at the Battle of Stalingrad as the UK and the USA did in the entire war, on all fronts, combined.

Comment #43: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  03:52 PM

Wow… that WAS fun!

Comment #44: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/13  at  03:55 PM

wang-chung, sweetie, it’s okay if you have a crush.  This isn’t grade school any more; you don’t have to pull hair and put frogs in pockets.

Comment #45: Punditus Maximus  on  10/13  at  03:57 PM

Reagan didn’t win the Cold War, Gorbachev ended the Cold War.

That would be the same Gorbachev who’s the 1990 Peace Prize Laureate, while Reagan got nothing. Oh, the injustice!

You STILL have to defend Obama’s Nobel prize?

The simple fact that you must continue to defend the decision speaks volumes.

It’s more that we’re pointing out that the wingnut objections on Obama’s Nobel prize are based (quite unnecessarily) in ridiculous assertions like the one in the video, or like EricJG’s insistence that the Nobel committee create brand new prizes to reward extreme free-marketeers.

Also, am I correct that you’re the same wangchung with the extreme reading comprehension problem whose main thesis in an earlier thread was “you’re a fatty-fat-fatso!”? I’m thinking the theme of this thread will be “you’re a commie-pinko traitor.”

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  04:10 PM

MikeEss @ 39:

Well, the Vatican claiming to want to “save souls” in pre-colonial Mexico was just an excuse. Rather, the chief reasons Spain invaded were three-fold: gold, property, and a source of cheap slaves.

Comment #47: CHV  on  10/13  at  04:18 PM

Reagan didn’t win the Cold War, Gorbachev ended the Cold War.

Yes.  Yes!

Comment #48: Kristen from MA  on  10/13  at  04:29 PM

But not Stalin, eh?

Oh, if only Patton had convinced FDR and Churchill to keep rolling east in 1945, he’d have won the prestigious Nobel Freedom Prize, too.

Things must be lovely in ericJG’s alternate universe, where things like war-weariness, logistics, realpolitik, and treaties make no difference to national leaders. If you want to highlight one of the few significant differences between Hitler and Stalin, it’s that these things ultimately did make a difference to the latter and not to the former.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  04:34 PM

You STILL have to defend Obama’s Nobel prize?

The simple fact that you must continue to defend the decision against wing-nut conspiracy theories speaks volumes.

Comment #43: wang-chung

There, fixed it for you.

Comment #50: cynickal  on  10/13  at  04:36 PM

“Rather, the chief reasons Spain invaded were three-fold: gold, property, and a source of cheap slaves.”

Very true, but I think the veneer of legitimacy provided by the enlightenment of the savages made it all so much easier.  It was a good thing for the Europeans to rape and savage these new lands (and the people populating them).  After all, they came here to the Americas for good, moral, reasons! 

This effort to ascribe religious motivations to base actions was so successful that, for example, even today it’s fairly controversial to suggest that someone like Junípero Serra, who is advancing on the sainthood track, might not have had the best interests of the aboriginal Americans in mind.  People as notorious as Hernán Cortés have their criminal and immoral actions dismissed all too easily.

Mel Gibson made a whole movie that seems aimed at justifying the European subjugation of the Americas because of the “evil” of the native Americans and their .

And since so few aboriginal Americans are around to dispute the “truth” of these ideas (especially on the West Coast which was Serra’s territory), they get accepted all too easily…

Comment #51: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  04:43 PM

“him not wanting a new baby and Rita not wanting a new baby and deciding to go through with it anyway because it’s not like they’re a lot of work or anything”

Can’t remember exactly how it works but I think a lot of Rita’s ambivalence was Dexter is “nice but can be pretty inconstant so…...” rather than “oh shit” and dexter is more “whatever keeps the show on the road but in a way that doesn’t make it obvious that I pretty much don’t care”. In season 4 the child is a Lot of work.

As far as I recall, Rita was actively negative; all of the babies stink and cry and take up too much time and so on. When they finally sit down to decide the fate of their relationship Rita is extremely relieved when Dexter states he is willing to be a supportive partner in raising this child.  I think at that point we are supposed to realize that Rita REALLY wanted this baby and her doubts were really more of the case of A) testing Dexter, better him to flake now than in nine months time and B) preparing herself in case Dexter honestly believed he could not be a parent.  Still it does feel that the avoidance of the abortion topic was a little strenuous.

More on topic, I too would like to know was a radical abortion position is?  In this case it seems to mean any opinion on abortion that doesn’t stop and end with “illegal”.

Comment #52: hypatia  on  10/13  at  04:44 PM

Very true, but I think the veneer of legitimacy provided by the enlightenment of the savages made it all so much easier.  It was a good thing for the Europeans to rape and savage these new lands (and the people populating them).  After all, they came here to the Americas for good, moral, reasons!

“Universities like [my university] seek to diminish the importance of Christianity in the founding of the United States, but they will never win that battle,” [name] said. “American Indians knew not Christianity, and thus lacked the bedrock to construct a great United States of America as we know it today. Columbus, however, was their saving grace.”

Yeah, protesters at my school = fail.

Comment #53: Rebecca  on  10/13  at  04:48 PM

”Give one to FDR and Churchill for winning WW 2
But not Stalin, eh?”

I understand why the right and Americans in general downplay the USSR’s contribution in WW2.  Strongly disagree with it but I understand why its done

But for the life of me I cant figure out why the right thinks Churchill is some kind of military genius

In WWI he stole a Turkish battleship despite the overwhelming capital ship advantage the RN had over the Germans, which caused Turkey to jump into the war on Germany’s side, cutting off the Med supply route to Russia
Then pushed for the disastrous Gallipoli campaign to reopen it

Then in WW2 he meddled in planning and helped lose in Norway and France
And spent the rest of the war advocating squandering allied resources in Dieppe style raids and Aegean adventures

Comment #54: jefft452  on  10/13  at  04:52 PM

In WWI he stole a Turkish battleship despite the overwhelming capital ship advantage the RN had over the Germans, which caused Turkey to jump into the war on Germany’s side, cutting off the Med supply route to Russia.

Are you talking about the Goeben and the Breslau? If so, that’s not accurate on a number of levels. Gallipoli, yeah, a good deal of that falls on Churchill.

During WWII, Churchill was a military genius only in the sense that victory depended not only on what happened on the traditional battlefield, but also what happened on the home front, in the world of intelligence and R&D;, and in the arena of international alliances and diplomacy. If you’re talking about leadership of naval and ground forces strategy, then agreed: unimpressive. But in the other areas, he had the stuff.

Sorry for the history geek derail.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  05:05 PM

I understand why the right and Americans in general downplay the USSR’s contribution in WW2.  Strongly disagree with it but I understand why its done

I can understand why it was done during the Cold War, but after? We need to get over that. It’s perfectly safe for us to play up the Soviet’s role in winning WWII now that they, you know, don’t exist anymore. And before anyone says anything, the USSR != Russia.

Comment #56: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  05:12 PM

and in the arena of international alliances and diplomacy.

Well, even there, you have to ignore Churchill’s downright 19th Century views on colonialism. He really, seriously thought, in the mid-20th Century, that the UK could somehow hold onto India as a colony. Don’t ever talk up Churchill to an Indian!

Comment #57: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  05:22 PM

Rebecca @ 54:

>>>>American Indians knew not Christianity, and thus lacked the bedrock to construct a great United States of America as we know it today. Columbus, however, was their saving grace.”

Are you being facetious above, or did some lunatic actually say this?

Comment #58: CHV  on  10/13  at  05:25 PM

Dedicated to Ms. Campos-Duffy:

My Father sells condoms to sailors
My Mom pokes the heads with a pin
My sister performs the abortions
My God how the money rolls in

Comment #59: Sour Kraut  on  10/13  at  05:28 PM

“Are you talking about the Goeben and the Breslau? If so, that’s not accurate on a number of levels. Gallipoli, yeah, a good deal of that falls on Churchill”

No, HMS Agincourt
Built for Brazil then sold to Turkey b4 completion as “Sultan Osman II” (if I remember the Turks name correctly with out looking it up), completed Aug 1914, Turks sent a crew out to sail it home from the British builders (Armstrong IIRC).  Churchill kept the Turkish crew waiting until the final payment was made, then seized the ship for the RN and sent the Turks home empty-handed

SMS Goeben was stuck in the Med with no hope of escape.  Original plans were to run to Pola and join the Austrian fleet in event of war.  After Agincourt was stolen, Goeben headed for Contantinople and was handed over to the Ottomans. 

Message to Turkey - the British steal from you, your good friend the Kaiser gives you presents

Hope nobody is offended by history geek derails, I kind of enjoy them

Comment #60: jefft452  on  10/13  at  05:29 PM

“I can understand why it was done during the Cold War, but after? We need to get over that. It’s perfectly safe for us to play up the Soviet’s role in winning WWII now that they, you know, don’t exist anymore. And before anyone says anything, the USSR != Russia”

Yeah, but still undercuts the whole John Wayne won the war single handed USA! USA! trope

As I said, I disagree, but at least I understand why its done

Comment #61: jefft452  on  10/13  at  05:34 PM

Thanks, jefft—forgot about that part of the story. That was definitely one of the contributing factors that got the ball rolling.

Comment #62: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  05:39 PM

I can understand why it was done during the Cold War, but after? We need to get over that. It’s perfectly safe for us to play up the Soviet’s role in winning WWII now that they, you know, don’t exist anymore. And before anyone says anything, the USSR != Russia.

Old habits die hard. I was in Russia last year, where the Great Patriotic War is still with them in ways that it just isn’t here. They still don’t really discuss the Western role in Hitler’s defeat, whether it’s D-Day or the Arkhangelsk/Murmansk Convoys. To a degree it’s understandable, certainly more so than our own lack of attention to their sacrifices and contributions.

The only place either side comes close to an acknowledgment of the co-operative effort is the happy-happy camera opp of the US and Red Armies meeting at the Elbe.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  05:47 PM

Well, even there, you have to ignore Churchill’s downright 19th Century views on colonialism.

Yes, but when it came to the concept international alliances and diplomacy, at the time so did they!

Comment #64: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  05:50 PM

“Thanks, jefft—forgot about that part of the story. That was definitely one of the contributing factors that got the ball rolling.”

The South American naval arms race always fascinated me as a topic in international relations
(well, that, and also that Dreadnoughts are just plain cool)

When the coffee market crashed and Brazil couldn’t afford to finish the ships then building, then Argentina and Chile didn’t have to bankrupt themselves trying for parity

At one point in 1912 no fewer the 7 modern battleships were for sale or expected to go on the market soon

If you had the cash, you could become a naval power overnight

This touched off a diplomatic scramble to prevent balance of power shifts (example, Germany didn’t want them because of logistic problems with ammunition, but had to try to buy them to keep them out of Russian hands)

Comment #65: jefft452  on  10/13  at  05:54 PM

Yes, but when it came to the concept international alliances and diplomacy, at the time so did they!

Touche. And it is true that when it comes to the great three questions of the 20th Century (Nazism, Communism [Stalinism if you prefer], and Imperialism/Racism) it is very rare to find a great historical person who was on the right side in all three questions. It’s usually 2/3 at best.

Comment #66: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  05:58 PM

>>>>American Indians knew not Christianity, and thus lacked the bedrock to construct a great United States of America as we know it today. Columbus, however, was their saving grace.”

Are you being facetious above, or did some lunatic actually say this?

No, no, I’m dead serious. My uni changed Columbus Day to Fall Weekend and it’s really brought the crazies out. The wonderful rally also featured such positions as:

“As the ultimate politically correct move</v>, the naive, arrogant, haughty [university] faculty last year decided to side with American Indians, <b>less than 1 percent of Brown’s student body, and change the name of Columbus Day weekend to Fall Weekend.”
(president of Campus Republicans, of course - yes, the same group that showed Obama burning on their tableslips)

“Several speakers…said though they did not condone Columbus’ transgressions against Native Americans, they did not believe those misdeeds detracted from the explorer’s successes. [One] said finding fault with Columbus was ‘an attempt to attribute 21st-century conduct to a 15th-century explorer.’ Because slavery and brutality were more common in those days, Columbus was just following cultural norms, [he] said.”

“What [university] forgot — or ignored and gave no consideration to — is that Christopher Columbus is also a symbol of pride to Italian Americans…Now he’s going to become this great symbol of evil.”

Comment #67: Rebecca  on  10/13  at  06:00 PM

comment fail!

Comment #68: Rebecca  on  10/13  at  06:00 PM

The Columbus Day controversy is especially stupid because Columbus wasn’t an American (duh), he didn’t set foot on any part of what is now the United States, and at the time he was working for uber-Catholic Spain, the sworn mortal enemy of our mother country, England.

Comment #69: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  06:02 PM

So what I’m saying is, I don’t understand why we ever celebrated Columbus as a person in the first place.

Comment #70: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  06:03 PM

There’s two ways that nature can control a population so that it doesn’t outstrip resources—-lowered fertility or mass death.
With all the talk about going green, and reducing our carbon footprint, you almost never hear that the best thing to do is not have kids, or limit the number you have.

Comment #71: pitbullgirl65  on  10/13  at  06:38 PM

I really, honestly think we should just quit acting as though the anti-choicers and wingnuts are looking for reasonable debate.  They aren’t.  They’re trying to be as inflammatory and horrible as possible while maintaining a thin veneer of civility (in some cases, very thin).

YES. I was(am) so very disappointed and angry with President Obamas trying to play both the prochoice and pro fetus sides.  This is not the change I’d hoped for.

Comment #72: pitbullgirl65  on  10/13  at  06:50 PM

With all the talk about going green, and reducing our carbon footprint, you almost never hear that the best thing to do is not have kids, or limit the number you have.

Cause in the developed world, this has already happened. People have 0-2 kids usually. In India I’m sure they hear that message much more.

Comment #73: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  06:59 PM

They want everyone except the Anglos to hear the small family message.  If white women are not keeping their “quivers” full, then baby Pat Buchanan and widdle Glenn Beck cry…

Comment #74: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  07:27 PM

Of course, EricJG, getting the Israelis and Egyptians to sign a peace treaty shouldn’t count for a freedom prize, as war is freedom, after all..<<<


If Carter should have won, it was in 1980, not 2002. The Nobel that year went to “Somebody who wasn’t George W Bush”.

Comment #75: EricJG  on  10/13  at  07:36 PM

The real reason that we have strife in the world is due to my appetites not being satisfied.  Didn’t I mention I wanted CHOCOLATES!  I also want to be well attired, and for people to respect my presence the minute I walk into a room.  I want a freeflow of money coming in.  I want comfort and hot spas.  Until then, there will be no world peace.

Comment #76: scratchy888  on  10/13  at  07:42 PM

And why can’t they have a Nobel Pie of the Year Prize, either?
I know the historical context behind the Nobel prizes means absolutely nothing to you, ericJG, but really, why even attempt this ridiculous chain of “logic” simply to express your view that Reagan was better than Carter?
I know you’re petulant because that bum Carter won an existing Nobel prize that he deserved while St. Ronnie didn’t win a non-existent Nobel prize he might have deserved, but is it really worth making yourself look like an idiot?<<<


Well, Reagan won two elections in landslides, whereas Carter barely won one by one percent over Ford, who pardoned Nixon. Reagan won the Cold War, whereas Carter won nothing.

Face it - Carter was the Neville Chamberlain of the 1970’s.

Comment #77: EricJG  on  10/13  at  07:48 PM

“The Nobel that year went to “Somebody who wasn’t George W Bush”. “

...that’s just wrong.  Obviously it should have gone to Rush “I’m An Addict But My Peeps Don’t Care” Limbaugh, “Biggest” Dick “In The World” Cheney, Doug “Stupidest Fucking Guy On Earth” Feith, Bill “Wrong Way” Kristol, Chuck “The Cabbage Hammer” Krauthammer , Jonah “Fascism is Liberal Is Fascism” Goldberg, or “Li’l Annie Schutzstaffel” Coulter. 

There are so many worthies in the Reichwing it’s really hard to decide…

Comment #78: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  07:53 PM

“Face it - Carter was the Neville Chamberlain of the 1970’s.”

In the Ever Fearful Land of Wingnuttia, there are so many Next Hitler’s and so many Neville Chamberlain’s it’s a wonder you all don’t just blow your brains out and have done with it.

Seriously, think about it. 

Maybe the pain will stop…

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  10/13  at  07:57 PM

Sorry to be OT, but a PS in re SMS Goben

HMS Agincourt was broken up after the war to comply with the Washington Treaties

But Goeben was sold for scrap iron when I was in high school

I realize that between “Brand New” and “Rare & Valuable Antique” things go through a long period as “Just an Old Piece of Crap”

But you would think that by the mid 70’s a Great War Battlecruiser would have been worth preserving as a museum ship

What a shame

Comment #80: jefft452  on  10/13  at  08:14 PM

Sorry for the late response. Work and all that.

Yeah!  Dick Cheney should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize!…

(...hopefully this person has been distracted long enough for the orderlies to give them the injection they missed this morning…)

Why not Cheney? What has Obama done to deserve the Nobel peace prize? His lack of belligerence? His refusal to belittle traditional allies? I know the Bush years were bad but this isn’t exceptional behavior—it’s expected of rational leaders. He’s working on a missile treaty reduction? So did Reagan.

Obama’s not in the same league as Martti Ahtisaari. The prize is pointless. Cheney’s a great recipient.

Comment #81: Lesly  on  10/13  at  08:21 PM

Ok, obviously the Right are bogarting all the good drugs.  I knew that DARE crap was a front for keeping all the good scores to themselves. 

“Cheney’s a great recipient,”  hee hee heeeee!

Comment #82: GeekGirlsRule  on  10/13  at  08:33 PM

“But not Stalin, eh?”


Please. Stalin was as evil as Hitler. In an ideal world, both Stalin and Hitler would have lost, and the West won. We liberated Western Europe, Stalin enslaved Eastern Europe. That was an unfortunate end to WW 2.

Comment #83: EricJG  on  10/13  at  08:43 PM

Do wingnuts know any historical period besides 1936-1939? I mean, really.

Next he’s going to tell me how Saddam Hussein was just like Hitler cause of the Mufti of Jerusalem, cause he saw it on the History Channel!

Christ on Friday, and people wonder why we need more history majors…

Comment #84: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  08:44 PM

EricJG, lemme guess, in your dream world we would have allied with Hitler against Stalin, right?

Comment #85: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  08:45 PM

“We liberated Western Europe, Stalin enslaved Eastern Europe. That was an unfortunate end to WW 2”

Franco says hi

Comment #86: jefft452  on  10/13  at  08:46 PM

“You do realize I was being snarky, which is part of the Pandagonian mission statement, right?”

I have literally no idea where you think I am misinterpreting you. You said if they do things this way I will be annoyed and I responded they don’t and it looks this way instead. Unless you think I am not aware that you know children are time consuming. I wanted to point out that show also knows and they actually use this to move the plot forwards instead of doing a baby episode and forgetting the whole thing except for when they bring it up for continuity the way a lot of shows might do. Sorry I thought you might find that interesting.

“As far as I recall, Rita was actively negative”

She may have said negative things but she did want the child. Or at least that’s my memory. I felt it was obvious that she would go for an abortion if dex got out fast but I got the sense that if dex wanted to stay but without having a child of his own she also might have gone for that one. It was just for that to fly I think she needed him to actually bring it up. Maybe he saw that chris rock thing or he thinks act conservative and you will blend or people don’t like talking about things that cause them anxiety so shut up about anxiety objects but whatever it was he was not bringing it up. Anyway, just how it struck me at the time but its hard to read what Rita wants because usually we see her in scenes with dexter. Screw it. I am going to rewatch.

Also Reagan thread?

“Face it - Carter was the Neville Chamberlain of the 1970’s.”

Does anyone remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1wSZBTAXRs

you have to go 2 minutes in

Comment #87: pharmakos  on  10/13  at  08:49 PM

Franco says hi

António de Oliveira Salazar, Fascist dictator of Portugal. Also. As Palin would say.

And you can add Northern Ireland for good measure.

Comment #88: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  08:49 PM

Carter, that Neville Chamberlain who first funded the Afghan resistance to the Soviet invasion…fail, Eric, fail.

Comment #89: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  08:50 PM

EricJG @ 84:

>>>Please. Stalin was as evil as Hitler.

Actually, due to Stalin being in power for longer than Hitler he was able to inflict more damage on those around him - not to mention Stalinism was the driving force behind more than one genocidal dictatorship (e.g. The Khmer Rouge, North Korea, Pinochet) following his death in 1953.

So even after he died, Stalin was dangerous (and arguably still is) where he inspires fellow psychotics with delusions of power.

Lesly @ 82:

>>>Cheney’s a great recipient.

Maybe Cheney can make his case for winning the peace prize next year while he’s waterboarding the election committee in Norway.

Comment #90: CHV  on  10/13  at  08:57 PM

CHV, I’d argue Stalin and Stalinism are slightly less evil than Nazism. Just slightly less evil, but still less evil.

When Stalin killed people, they were “class enemies” or political opponents. Hitler killed millions of people, even infants, just for being members of a certain race. Both are evil, but Nazism is more so.

Comment #91: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  09:05 PM

“António de Oliveira Salazar, Fascist dictator of Portugal. Also. As Palin would say.
And you can add Northern Ireland for good measure.”

Not to offend any Finns (They tend to be understandably touchy about the “co-belligerent” status during the continuation war)  but Mannerheim wasn’t exactly a lover of town hall democracy neither

Comment #92: jefft452  on  10/13  at  09:07 PM

If Carter should have won, it was in 1980, not 2002.

G-d forbid that someone should win it years after the fruits of their accomplishment were well-documented as having a lasting effect, and when they did something after their Presidency besides go to Japan and make speeches for millions of dollars…..............................

Comment #93: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/13  at  09:10 PM

“not to mention Stalinism was the driving force behind more than one genocidal dictatorship (e.g. The Khmer Rouge, North Korea, Pinochet)”

Pinochet????

Comment #94: jefft452  on  10/13  at  09:11 PM

Not to offend any Finns (They tend to be understandably touchy about the “co-belligerent” status during the continuation war) but Mannerheim wasn’t exactly a lover of town hall democracy neither

True, however, Finland isn’t really western Europe. I fucking love Finland after visiting it, but they’re not really western European. Kind of half eastern, half western.

Comment #95: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  09:18 PM

Or more specifically, half-Scandinavian and half-Slav. Which makes them really interesting.

Comment #96: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  09:22 PM

It’s so fucking annoying when you’re billed a conservative because you don’t agree with everyone else.

Maybe Cheney can make his case for winning the peace prize next year while he’s waterboarding the election committee in Norway.

Well, the committee is supposed to influence us, not the other way around.

Comment #97: Lesly  on  10/13  at  09:24 PM

Pinochet????

Dude, didn’t someone tell you fascism is the new communism? Ask Jonah Goldberg!

Comment #98: Lesly  on  10/13  at  09:25 PM

“Or more specifically, half-Scandinavian and half-Slav. Which makes them really interesting.”

Haven’t met many, but those that I have, yeah

And I meant that about not offending them, although I do detect some white-washing of their history, its more in tone then in fact
And they were between a rock and a hard place at the time

Comment #99: jefft452  on  10/13  at  09:31 PM

Maybe the Dexter folks didn’t want an abortion because then everyone would understand that only serial killers and their partners have abortions…

Comment #100: paul  on  10/13  at  10:07 PM

If Carter should have won, it was in 1980, not 2002. The Nobel that year went to “Somebody who wasn’t George W Bush”.

Again, an ignorance of the prize’s history. Sometimes, as with TR, the prize is given immediately for brokering a conclusive international or internal or regional peace settlement. In 1978 (not 1980—correcting once again for your profound ignorance of history) they decided to give the prize to Begin and Sadat for taking the first steps.

Just as often, it’s sort of a life-time achievement award for an individual’s or organisation’s long track record of promoting peace or trying to eliminate a catastrophe of man’s own making. That’s why Carter got the award.

And do you seriously think George W. Bush, who was already demanding that the most powerful nation on Earth invade Iraq under false pretexts, was ever a serious candidate? I disagree with the decision to give Obama the prize, but even he’s far more deserving of it that Prince Bush.

Well, Reagan won two elections in landslides, whereas Carter barely won one by one percent over Ford, who pardoned Nixon. Reagan won the Cold War, whereas Carter won nothing.

Look, EricJG, we aren’t operating under high school rules, where all that counts is winning the big game (or, to use a HS metaphor you’d be more familiar with, winning the debate club championships).

I don’t think that Carter was a particularly effective President, but I do think he carried out the job with more genuine goodwill toward all the American people and the cause of world peace in one year of his tenure than Ronald “We Begin Bombing in 5 Minutes” Reagan did in two whole terms.

I do hope you continue to comment here, Eric—it’s rare to talk with someone who gets his history via Rush Limbaugh.

Comment #101: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  10:08 PM

Haven’t met many, but those that I have, yeah

If you visit Finland, you’ll fine that to be true in just about all Finns. Which is why I really liked that country. The Scandinavian standard of living with the cool-but-cynical attitude towards life of the Slavs. Also, they can drink any American right under the table.

Comment #102: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  10:17 PM

Another cool thing about Finland is that there are surprising number of American Civil War geeks there.

Comment #103: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  10:19 PM

“Another cool thing about Finland is that there are surprising number of American Civil War geeks there.”

My brother and nephew did ACW re-enacting, (yeah, I come from a long line of geeks)
they once met a Korean tourist who told them that they actually have ACW re-enactment groups in China


Once when I was doing American War of Independence/French & Indian war re-enacting, a group of excited Russians were hovering around us.  Turns out they were a Napoleonic drill team from the Soviet Union.  Their “muskets” were plastic and sheet metal, they would drop a lit “lady finger” firecracker down the barrel to simulate firing

We let them fire a few volleys from our brown bess’s and they were as happy as kids in a candy store

Comment #104: jefft452  on  10/13  at  10:45 PM

As somebody who normally doesn’t like to thread-jack,

Wow, we’ve been all over the map on this one, and I’m one of the worst offenders

Comment #105: jefft452  on  10/13  at  10:49 PM

”Again, an ignorance of the prize’s history. Sometimes, as with TR, the prize is given immediately for brokering a conclusive international or internal or regional peace settlement”

My personal opinion is that Admiral Togo did more to end the Russo-Japanese war then TR did, but I understand that you cant really give him the peace prize for sinking the Pacific and Baltic fleets

Comment #106: jefft452  on  10/13  at  10:58 PM

My brother and nephew did ACW re-enacting, (yeah, I come from a long line of geeks)
they once met a Korean tourist who told them that they actually have ACW re-enactment groups in China


Wow. I’m a Virginia boy and as self-centered as we are, I’m still always surprised by the amount of interest in the ACW shown around the world!

Comment #107: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  11:07 PM

Changing the subject somewhat;

Aaaand…. that’s where I lost interest.

Comment #108: Tyro  on  10/13  at  11:17 PM

In all of the papers, you see “ I was defending Virginia[‘s right to hold slaves]” or “I was defending Georgia[‘s right to hold slaves]”. It was not some national government that motivated these people.

FTFY.

Comment #109: Tyro  on  10/13  at  11:19 PM

Wang-chung, I drect you to “Apostles of Disunion”. Look it up on Amazon.com.

Buy it. Read it.

Comment #110: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  11:25 PM

”Wow. I’m a Virginia boy and as self-centered as we are, I’m still always surprised by the amount of interest in the ACW shown around the world!”

Well, it does make a kind sense, if you ask a history geek what time periods would interest him, mid 19th century has to be high on the list
You have revolutionary technology in its infant stages, yet you still have colorful uniforms and Napoleonic tactics

Comment #111: jefft452  on  10/13  at  11:27 PM

Well, it does make a kind sense, if you ask a history geek what time periods would interest him, mid 19th century has to be high on the list

Absolutely. 1815-1914 was a very interesting period. And the ACW was the most harrowing military conflict of that ear in the Western World, by far.

BTW I’d recommend Apostles of Disunion to any liberal that hasn’t read it, as well. It’s very good ammunition against the myth that the Confederacy fought for some esoteric bullshit about “states’ rights”.  No, they fought for White Supremacy and Slavery, and that book uses the very words of secessionist leaders in 1860 to smash the myth of the “lost cause” to bits. Excellent book.

Comment #112: Ben D.  on  10/13  at  11:32 PM

Ben D
Ever read “Chinese” Gordon’s account of the Ever Victorious Army in the Taiping Rebellion?

Topic was interesting but not very well written in my opinion, to the point of making large parts of it boring
but still worth a read

Comment #113: jefft452  on  10/13  at  11:40 PM

FWIW, I *love* the history thread jacks.

Comment #114: Samantha Vimes  on  10/13  at  11:48 PM

”FWIW, I *love* the history thread jacks.”

I’m relieved to hear that
I feel guilty for doing it but some days I cant resist

Comment #115: jefft452  on  10/13  at  11:56 PM

Ever read “Chinese” Gordon’s account of the Ever Victorious Army in the Taiping Rebellion?

It took a lot of Red Bulls and Adderalls (often in combination), but I finished it. And it was worth it.

Comment #116: Ben D.  on  10/14  at  12:10 AM

”It’s called PATRIOTISM. You just haven’t seen this much in your circles. ”

Ummm … Finns and Chinese are interested in the ACW because they’re patriotic???

OK, if you say so

Comment #117: jefft452  on  10/14  at  12:24 AM

”We let them fire a few volleys from our brown bess’s and they were as happy as kids in a candy store”

PS
“Brown Bess” is a misnomer for this period, but “2nd pattern land service musket” just doesn’t have the same ring to it

Now I REALLY feel guilty for history geek thread-jacking

Comment #118: jefft452  on  10/14  at  12:31 AM

FWIW, I *love* the history thread jacks.

I fell so much better now! smile

Comment #119: Ben D.  on  10/14  at  12:33 AM

Look, EricJG, the Nobel prizes are not given for being popular in America, or for being good for America, they are given for things which affect the *world* favorably.  You know, the WORLD?  Of which the US is only a part?

Comment #120: Older  on  10/14  at  01:06 AM

yes, the US is only a *part* of the world.
and overly powerful. it’s totally fucked up, how the rest of the world responds to the US.


OT of the post (i read a lot of the comments. and feel sad that my area of “historical expertise” is the 1600s… ah, well.)

someone please explain to me *HOW* Obama’s “abortion policy” is “radical”? PLEASE?


because as far as i can fucking tell, his policy is CONSERVATIVE. he wants there to be no abortions, and seems to really feel that the *only* “reason” for an abortion is “physical health of the mother”. seriously. he votes “pro-choice” (or, rather, vote-ED) because he is a Dem. that’s about it.

now I, *I* have a “radical abortion policy”. or rather, a “radical birth control policy”.
if it weren’t for the fact that it *WOULD* be abused, i would push like hell for the policy i want:
which would be a system in which one could *not*, as in be physically incapable, of getting pregnant if they didn’t want to, and the father didn’t want to. i would decouple reproduction from sex entirely, so that it didn’t matter what one did sexually - one could not have a child that they did not want to have.


but, i have to say, not being willing to out-right ban a necessary medical procedure is *NOT* radical.

Comment #121: denelian  on  10/14  at  02:49 AM

Just to add my 2 bits to the Ronald Reagan-ended-the-Cold-War meme that appeared above: this is a claim that only seems to be accepted as established fact among American conservatives and right-wingers. It doesn’t seem to have (as much) currency in Europe. Indeed, in many of the ex-socialist and southern European Catholic countries the equivalent conservatives and right-wingers make a similarly spurious claim with regard to Pope John Paul II.
Of course, giving Gorbachev credit is closer to the truth (and again, this seems acknowledged much more in Europe), although it’s silly to say any one individual deserves responsibility for the end of the Cold War. Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders at the time just saw the writing on the wall, i.e. the USSR was economically and politically unsustainable as it was, and diffusing tensions with the U.S. was just one aspect of their eleventh-hour attempts to save their country. We all saw how that worked out…

Comment #122: EdoBosnar  on  10/14  at  08:35 AM

“Look, EricJG, the Nobel prizes are not given for being popular in America, or for being good for America, they are given for things which affect the *world* favorably.  You know, the WORLD?  Of which the US is only a part?”

Heresy!!!

“i would decouple reproduction from sex entirely, so that it didn’t matter what one did sexually - one could not have a child that they did not want to have.”

denelian, could you be thinking of something like this?...

Comment #123: MikeEss  on  10/14  at  09:25 AM

“Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders at the time just saw the writing on the wall, i.e. the USSR was economically and politically unsustainable as it was, and diffusing tensions with the U.S. was just one aspect of their eleventh-hour attempts to save their country. We all saw how that worked out…”

I figured at the time, and I’ve seen nothing that strongly indicated otherwise, that the Soviet Union collapsed on its own, basically because an iron fist was required to keep people under control and keep the economy simmering, but there hadn’t been any real hardasses in power since Stalin.

The Chinese were able to withstand the loss of Mao by substituting a sort of collective hardassedness at the top in his wake.  There really have been no real “name brand” leaders since Mao’s death.  Plus they were smart enough to keep the totalitarianism they liked and give enough on the economic issues to keep people reasonably happy with things.

Of course, we Americans believe that Capitalism and Democracy won out over Communism, and that Capitalism is entirely incompatible with Communism.  But since the “communism” practiced by the Soviets and Chinese was less socialism as envisioned by Marx/et al than is was a totalitarian dictatorship not much different from what you would find in a banana republic or a post-colonial African republic, it’s hard to say that Capitalism/Democracy proved superior.

In fact, the Chinese success with bringing capitalist elements into their economy while keeping much of “communism” (mainly extreme social control), demonstrates that “capitalism” is just an economic system and reasonably independent of the political system it lives under…

Comment #124: MikeEss  on  10/14  at  09:48 AM

“hy would anyone who loves America wish it to be weak and subject to the socialist governments of Europe and others? “

You mean the ones with the highest quality of life on the planet?  Oh noes!  Please not that!  No, let’s keep America dumb, sick and poor.  That’s best.

Comment #125: Gypsy Lee  on  10/14  at  10:14 AM

“I think this sums up the far left’s disdain for their own country.”

No, it doesn’t, but making that statement surely demonstrates your disdain for reason, logic, and human intelligence in general, not to mention that it leans strongly in the direction of sociopathy.  Ultimately it tells us far more about you than it does about any “point” you’re trying to make…

Comment #126: MikeEss  on  10/14  at  10:22 AM

Please stop feeding the troll.

Comment #127: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/14  at  10:35 AM

See, I just deleted everything he said and it screws up the flow.  If you can hang in and ignore him until I get around to deleting him, then it makes more sense.

Comment #128: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/14  at  10:37 AM

Amanda, please feel free to delete my last comment as well (and this one too).  No troll, no comment needed…

Comment #129: MikeEss  on  10/14  at  11:40 AM

Cause in the developed world, this has already happened. People have 0-2 kids usually. In India I’m sure they hear that message much more.</i>
*However* the developed world, particulary the U.S, we consume far more resouces per person.

Comment #130: pitbullgirl65  on  10/14  at  12:13 PM

China has decided recently to create a universal health care system adopting the European models. I don’t think it’s escaped their attention that a universal system makes it easy for women to utilize comprehensive contraception and bring the birthrate down without coercion. Most of Western Europe has near zero population growth. Nobody can make an Italian woman give birth when she doesn’t want, and Italy has the lowest birth rate in all of Europe. I find it delicious irony that with the Vatican right in the city of Rome, those child molesting clowns can’t make Italian women breed.

The righties are correct given their sexist opinions to try to destroy universal healthcare. Comprehensive universal care would eliminate any chance to foist their women as breeders view on the rest of American citizens.

Campos-Duffy has no understanding of any of this, and no comprehension of conclusions her rhetoric would take her. She’s the requisite dumb bunny of The View.

Comment #131: LCforevah  on  10/14  at  04:37 PM

”OT of the post (i read a lot of the comments. and feel sad that my area of “historical expertise” is the 1600s… ah, well.)”

Why sad?
The 1600’s is another period that is fascinating because it is in between two worlds, the end of the high middle ages and the beginning of the modern nation state (I love the fact that the early plantations in Virginia were still called “Hundreds”)

Unfortunately I’ve never read much original source material from 17th cen

Comment #132: jefft452  on  10/16  at  01:22 AM
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