Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Pony skeptics Previous entry: 3L: A Story Nobody Wants To Hear

Atheism is an idea more than an identity

Religion

Back from Skepticon and still trying to catch up! Fun was had by all, mostly because of the onstage talks and offstage conversations, but there was a very exciting incident that also happened during the conference. 

For those who can't read it, it says "Skepticon is NOT welcomed to my Christian Business." This was very exciting for we atheists at Skepticon, since clear-cut proof of overt discrimination is so hard to come by in our era of everyone pretending to be tolerant even while promoting intolerance, and almost every blogger who saw this wrote a post about it, except perhaps myself and Lindsay Beyerstein. The owner has since apologized for his hasty actions, and now there's a raging debate over whether or not he should be forgiven or not. I participated a little, since I generally think that we can't move forward on progressive issues if we don't accept sincere apologies from people who've been overtly prejudiced or bigoted, and allowed that human beings can and do grow. But now I realize that I kind of don't give a shit, on a fundamental level. I just don't see this sort of thing as bigotry in the same way that I would see, say, a sign that says "No Muslims allowed" as bigotry. Before you crap your pants and write angry letters, let me explain.

Thing is, I don't see atheism and especially atheist activism as being primarily about protecting the rights of atheists as a group. I think a lot of people prefer that model, because it's a nice, comfortable one that makes it easy to align it with civil rights, gay rights, and feminism. The problem with it is that unlike with those other situations, is that the argument for mutual tolerance, nay, acceptance, is a lot easier to make when it comes to religious groups, racial groups, sexual orientation, and gender. Gay rights is no real threat to straight people. Women having rights isn't anti-male. Black power doesn't mean white people can't hold jobs or go to school anymore. Accepting Muslims into your community doesn't mean you can't be Christian anymore. That conservatives have to lie and claim these things are true just shows how empty their actual arguments are. 

I suppose if atheists were willing as a group to relegate atheism to being just another religious belief, then we could probably limit ourselves to using the oppression/rights model of activism, though it would really seem kind of silly since atheists---unlike women, people of color, or gays---tend to be better-educated and wealthier than the dominant group. But we're not content to allow ourselves to be defined as a religious group. On the contrary, the whole point of atheism is that it's not religious. We tend to argue that there isn't a god or gods. We argue that religion is a hypothesis on how the world works, and we criticize it. While many atheists do in fact get oppressed when they speak out, it's not usually because they're atheists per se, but because of what they're doing, which is criticizing religion. This may seem like a distinction without difference to you, but I really don't think that it is, to myself or to most Americans. I make a similiar distinction between oppression against women and hostility to feminism. They're related in a lot of ways, but that someone on a blog makes rape threats at me because he disagrees with my ideas is different than when some guy sexually harasses me on the street because he can see that I'm a lady. In one case, they're arguing---crudely, unfairly, and pointlessly---with an idea and in the latter they're just hating on me for what I am. These distinctions, by the way, are an excellent way to maintain my sanity.

It's important to understand that atheists scare religious people not because we're different, in other words, but because our beliefs do literally threaten their own. We don't simply present ourselves as another religious group whose beliefs can be kept to ourselves. We openly and unabashedly argue that religion is toxic and we'd like to see it end, just as we believe sexism and racism are toxic and should end. This is an argument over what people believe, not who they are. Religious people frustrate us to no end because they deliberately conflate "what I believe" with "who I am"---this guy with the sign did so---and I think it's a bad idea to do exactly the same thing out of expedience. In order to maintain that narrative, we would pretty much have to shut up about how religion is illogical and stupid, so that we can make this about identity and not arguments. In a narrow sense, this guy was bigoted because he refused to serve the gelato, but as soon as he stopped doing that and apologized, I think "bigotry" is the wrong framework to employ. Now I think it's more valuable to talk about why it is that atheism is such a threat, and the reason is that atheism as an idea is threatening, no matter how much atheists as people can get along with our neighbors in day-to-day interactions. 

Here's some more thoughts from earlier this year on why these distinctions are very important and shouldn't be blurred. Again, Christians are the first to scream "bigotry!" if you criticize their ideas, and so we atheists should be mindful not to imitate the worst aspects of our opposition. 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:14 AM • (83) Comments

I think you’re absolutely right, and it seems like a lot of atheists are open to these distinctions. People actually get a little excited when something like this happens (which makes the simultaneous bigotry claims seem disingenuous).

Personally, incidents like these make me happy: it seems like the message is getting across.

Comment #1: zyxek  on  11/22  at  12:25 PM

We openly and unabashedly argue that religion is toxic and we’d like to see it end

I think this is a presumptive act of claiming to speak for all atheists. Since when is atheism an activist interest group dedicated to ending religion, rather than a descriptor for people who don’t believe in a god/gods?

Comment #2: Tyro  on  11/22  at  12:29 PM

This is a very thought-provoking post.  The one thing I think it glosses over is the fact that I know a lot of atheists who, particularly in their family environments, are afraid to say “I’m an atheist” because it will shock people and provoke a potentially nasty reaction.

That, to me, is pretty classic bigotry.  I’ve never experienced it myself (I’m not REALLY an atheist, even though religious people generally categorize me that way), but it does strike me as something worth trying to overcome with the sort of traditional anti-bigotry playbook.

Comment #3: Ape Man  on  11/22  at  12:33 PM

Another important distinction, which I think you may have mentioned before Amanda, is that most Christians in the US don’t really believe the things that they say.  If they did, their behavior would be very different.

Say what you will about racists, sexists, and homophobes, but they seem to actually believe that they are superior to people of color, women, and gay people.

This puts the atheist in a different place than other oppressed minorities, because you’re trying to help people “come out” as the atheists they already are.  It’s as if ALL fundamentalist Christians were secretly closeted gay people.  (And they can’t all be, right?  Right?  OK, maybe my theory needs some work.)

Comment #4: dopus dei  on  11/22  at  12:40 PM

That is a really great point. Atheism really isn’t about identity (except in the limited sense that your thoughts become a part of you). And atheism as a movement doesn’t really work on the same principles as the civil rights movement. We’re not fighting to have the same rights as anyone else… we want to break superstition’s hold on the human race.

Comment #5: atheist  on  11/22  at  12:42 PM

Religious people routinely refuse to engage in the ideas, preferring instead to attack the people. Take this debate for example. The statement that atheism is grounded in bad experiences with religious people, or being blind and deaf to religious experience is an attack on people rather than belief. In fact, a standard tactic of religious apologists is to dismiss 3,000 years of ideas about non-theistic life and ethics to attack a straw man of amorality. The finding that people are more likely to commit the conjunction fallacy with atheists than with rapists demonstrates that it’s not just a debate about ideas, but prejudices.

Comment #6: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  12:55 PM

Religious people routinely refuse to engage in the ideas, preferring instead to attack the people. Take this debate for example. The statement that atheism is grounded in bad experiences with religious people, or being blind and deaf to religious experience is an attack on people rather than belief. In fact, a standard tactic of religious apologists is to dismiss 3,000 years of ideas about non-theistic life and ethics to attack a straw man of amorality. The finding that people are more likely to commit the conjunction fallacy with atheists than with rapists demonstrates that it’s not just a debate about ideas, but prejudices.

I’d love to have a conversation about ideas, but few discussions can ever get there.

Comment #7: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  12:57 PM

I dunno, I’m married to an atheist, and he does not think that religion per se is toxic and should be ended.  He just doesn’t think god/s exist.  He thinks that religious belief or lack thereof is personal, and he’s not interested in “converting” anyone.  I think there’s a difference between people who don’t believe god exists and people who are activists, trying to convert or convince others (atheism as a belief v. atheism as a movement).  Frankly, I make the same distinction with religious people—are they content to have their beliefs, or do they insist that others must also believe, or at least behave, in conformity with those beliefs?  The former don’t bother me in the slightest, so long as their beliefs aren’t used to justify bad behavior to others.  The latter drive me nuts.

Comment #8: Kit-Kat  on  11/22  at  12:59 PM

Although there is no organisation behind atheism, I think lack of belief should be just as respected as any religious belief. The biggest problem, I think, is the culture of evangelism in the Christian community. Christians are told to go out and ‘save’ others, and I think a lot of them have trouble figuring out that most people of different faiths don’t do the same. So atheism is a challenge to them on two fronts—one, that you’re not one of the faithful, and thus need to be turned towards the light, and two the fear that you will try to convert them in turn.

Comment #9: Jayn Newell  on  11/22  at  01:12 PM

This is an argument against religious tolerance in general—every religion is an equally direct threat to every other religion.

Comment #10: Punditus Maximus  on  11/22  at  01:19 PM

because our beliefs do literally threaten their own.

In principle, that’s absolutely true of any other religion too.  At most one religion can be “right”.  The U.S. has had marked success in tolerance through not taking religion seriously.  Instead the dominant paradigm is belief-in-belief, with religious communities as little more than social clubs.  Someone else’s social club doesn’t threaten mine.  Taken seriously as religions, they absolutely do.  Atheists take their beliefs seriously, so do seem threatening, because they can’t be put so easily in the “social club that says wacky things without actually believing it” category.

Atheism really isn’t about identity (except in the limited sense that your thoughts become a part of you)

I can accept this, but why then is religious belief considered an identity?  Atheism is a religion the way baldness is a hair color, but they both are assertions about the structure of the world.  Neither is an immutable category like race or sex.

Comment #11: wnoise  on  11/22  at  01:21 PM

I don’t want to end religious belief, except to the same extent I’d like to see hunger, warfare, and hatred end: Those are all laudable goals, but unlikely to be achieved soon, if ever.

At this point, I’d be perfectly happy to be left alone, and to limit the pernicious and destructive influence of religion in our daily lives.

I realize that even that is probably expecting way too much.

OTOH, as long as you aren’t wearing an obviously atheist tee-shirt or something and loudly spouting off anti-religious talking points, how in hell would Mr. Anti-Atheist bigot know who was or was not an atheist in his shop?

Possibly out of necessity I think I can do a decent job of “passing” as religious when needed.  I suspect most atheists could do the same, as required by circumstances. 

It’s sad that such skills are sometimes necessary, but knowing how to get along with the rest of the people we’re stuck with in society is part of our human toolkit for survival…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  11/22  at  01:23 PM

@Jayn: Amanda’s point is that atheism implicitly contains exactly the same culture of evangelism, and it’s very much the weakest part of the post.

Sorry, most people don’t actually believe whatever it is they say they believe.  Religion is just a tribal indicator.  Atheism won’t be any different if/when there are 2nd and 3rd generation atheists, since people who grew up in atheist households will start getting superstitious and unthinking in the same ways as people who grew up in religious households.  Most people aren’t examined, and just because atheism is the (anti)religion examined people convert to doesn’t mean that atheism will remain the same thing once unexamined people start growing up in it.

“Religion” isn’t toxic.  It’s just a stupid excuse for doing whatever was floating around in the culture in the first place.  It’s a place where people who want to follow can go find people who want to tell them what to do, without all the boundaries and good psychological health of BDSM.  Don’t mistake the institution for the behavior; the RCC reacted exactly the same way as the Penn State athletic program, and for exactly the same reasons.  Atheism isn’t against the toxic influence of football, though.

Comment #13: Punditus Maximus  on  11/22  at  01:24 PM

If the gelato he was selling wasn’t made with water buffalo milk, he was doing atheists a favor, Amanda, according to a friend of mine who lived in Italy a while back.

Kit-Kat, I’ve always believed the best vehicle for one’s theistic/non-theistic beliefs is ones’ own life, and as for the ‘religious conformists’ you talk about, it’s covered by this from William Burroughs:

Most of the trouble in the world has been caused by folks who can’t mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has. Now your virus is an obligate cellular parasite and my contention is that evil is quite literally a virus parasite occupying a certain brain area which we may term the RIGHT center. The mark of a basic shit is that he has to be right. And right here we must make a distinction between the hard-core virus-occupied shit and a plain, ordinary, mean no-good son of a bitch. Some of these sons of bitches don’t cause any trouble at all, just want to be left alone and are only dangerous when molested, like the Brown Recluse.

 

Comment #14: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/22  at  01:34 PM

@Comment #13: Punditus Maximus on 11/22 at 01:24 PM

“Religion” isn’t toxic.  It’s just a stupid excuse for doing whatever was floating around in the culture in the first place.  It’s a place where people who want to follow can go find people who want to tell them what to do, without all the boundaries and good psychological health of BDSM.

There’s some truth to this, but religion is unique precisely in that it intentionally subverts the human reasoning process. This is dangerous to a species that has to learn to act more rationally in order to survive.

Comment #15: atheist  on  11/22  at  01:43 PM

You nit has been picked, Tyro. Obviously, I mean activist atheists. Specifically at Skepticon, there were a number of speeches specifically singling out religion for criticism. But even if you are not activist as an atheist, the fact that you don’t believe suggests that you agree with other atheists that religious belief is foolish at best.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  01:43 PM

@11, you know, I agree that it should be in theory, but in practice it seems that denying that any god exists is far more threatening to believers than saying, “This one aspect of your theology is in conflict with mine.” If that weren’t so, you’d see liberal Christians being more overt in their criticisms of fundamentalists than they are.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  01:46 PM

@13: This is a both/and blog. Religion is an excuse for bad behavior, but it’s uniquely good for rationalizing bad behavior because religious beliefs can’t be measured against evidence. In fact, religion is set aside as a special category of false beliefs that it’s taboo to question. Above all other things, the atheist movement is trying to dismantle that special status afforded religious claims and demand that they be subject to the same marketplace of ideas as any other idea.

Personally, the “I don’t believe but don’t care if others do” atheism strikes me as condescending, as if you think religious people are feeble and can’t be held to the same standard of vigorous discourse that you yourself hold yourself to.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  01:50 PM

Atheism won’t be any different if/when there are 2nd and 3rd generation atheists, since people who grew up in atheist households will start getting superstitious and unthinking in the same ways as people who grew up in religious households.

Religion is a lot more than superstition and lack of thought. I might avoid walking under ladders even if my parents didn’t, but I’m unlikely to believe in Zeus or Thor if they didn’t.

Comment #19: junk science  on  11/22  at  01:50 PM

the fact that you don’t believe suggests that you agree with other atheists that religious belief is foolish at best.

Also the fact that you don’t really have to evangelize or bully people into thinking like you. You just sit there with your reasonable arguments and your peace of mind, and it’s just so goddamn annoying.

Comment #20: junk science  on  11/22  at  02:05 PM

speaking for myself as an isolated example, some atheists are content to let other people have their religious beliefs and even accept that religion may serve/have served some kind of social or evolutionary function. i don’t feel superior or inferior to religious people. i am content to let them have their beliefs as long as they don’t trouble me.

Comment #21: JonE  on  11/22  at  02:10 PM

Well, there are times we need to align with civil rights groups to protect ourselves - when someone gets fired, forced to pray or participate in religious actions, or held to a religious standard.  And of course we should always help others with their civil rights problems.

But yeah, for the most part it’s a non-issue.  It’s just something down low on the bullet list.

Comment #22: Crissa  on  11/22  at  02:11 PM

It was a lot more of an identity to me when I lived in a more religious environment, but now I live in a big city where there are a lot fewer of the obnoxiously religious, and few people discuss any religious matters at work. Though at work pretty much everyone is christian besides a few hindus and muslims, and as a white guy with an anglo/scottish last name, anyone who cares pretty much assumes I’m a christian anyway. So it’s mostly a non-issue, though I still like to cross off “in God We trust” on my paper money and I hate the song “God Bless America” (the fact that it’s a shitty song with vapid lyrics made me hate it even before I was an atheist).

Comment #23: Jimmy  on  11/22  at  02:54 PM

I think the claim that other minority ways of being don’t threaten the status quo in the same way as atheism isn’t really accurate. Same-sex marriage is a huge threat to “traditional” woman-and-kids-as-property marriage, black families in the neighborhood are a catastrophe for white people whose self-image depends on being richer and better than folks with darker skin. And gay people and black people pretty regularly have to point that out to bigoted neighbors. It’s just a sign of the deference we still automatically give religion that the similar self-image issues raised by atheism get implicitly treated as credible.

Comment #24: paul  on  11/22  at  02:56 PM

“You’d see liberal Christians being more overt in their criticisms of fundamentalists than they are.”

I actually do see a lot of this, but in my personal life, not in print.  My mother, for example, is a liberal Catholic who is harsh and unstinting in her criticism of fundamentalism and conservative Catholicism.  I know several liberal Christians who criticize fundamentalism, but none of them are bloggers or anything, and I only know this because I’ve had conversations with them.  The usual criticisms are that (1) they espouse values and ideas that completely contradict the teachings of the guy they claim to follow, (2) they reject science and reason, (3) they live in a paranoid siege mentality, where the whole world is somehow against them, just because the whole world doesn’t agree with them, and (4) they tend to be bigots of one kind or another. 

I think that at least some liberal Christians, while not exactly threatened by fundamentalists, are annoyed that they ostensibly share a faith and would like to distance themselves from their co-religionists.  How vocal they all are about that, I can’t say, but given that they are less likely to have the kind of missionary zeal that you do see in fundamentalists, I suspect they’re more quiet than not. 

As to the “I don’t believe but I don’t care if others do,” it strikes me as not so much condescending as humble.  My husband’s view is that we just don’t really know, so it’s kind of a dumb thing to fight about.  He is unpersuaded that there is a god, but of course, he can’t say for certain, so he’s happy to let everyone reach their own conclusion.  He seems happy, and he has lots of quite religious friends who also don’t seem to mind his attitude at all.  Again, none of them are of the missionary bent, so they don’t feel the need to persuade him that he’s wrong.  Frankly, I can think of worse things than a world in which we all live and let live.

Comment #25: Kit-Kat  on  11/22  at  02:58 PM

Regarding the story, if gelato-man’s apology was sincere and he understands that discrimination of any form is wrong, you accept the apology (forgive, but don’t forget) and judge him based on the quality of his gelato.

Comment #26: Jimmy  on  11/22  at  03:00 PM

“It was a lot more of an identity to me when I lived in a more religious environment, but now I live in a big city where there are a lot fewer of the obnoxiously religious, and few people discuss any religious matters at work. Though at work pretty much everyone is christian besides a few hindus and muslims, and as a white guy with an anglo/scottish last name, anyone who cares pretty much assumes I’m a christian anyway. So it’s mostly a non-issue, though I still like to cross off “in God We trust” on my paper money and I hate the song “God Bless America” (the fact that it’s a shitty song with vapid lyrics made me hate it even before I was an atheist).”

First of all—yes, that song sucks.  Second—I second the experience that when you live in a more diverse environment, it just doesn’t matter as much.  I’ll occasionally encounter a crusader, but mostly, it’s just a non-issue.

Comment #27: Kit-Kat  on  11/22  at  03:04 PM

I don’t see this as bigotry remotely. The business owner wasn’t singling out atheists but Scepticon-goers, a convention of people who are clearly hostile to his or her way of life. If the business owner was a gay atheist putting up the same notice concerning a right-wing evangelist meeting that would be perfectly fine too (and the evangelicals would similarly hold it up as evidence that they’re oppressed victims of bigotry).

As for the statement that respecting other people’s beliefs is ‘condescending’, well I always assumed it was tolerance. I know I’d prefer people I know with different beliefs to be ‘condescending’ rather than intolerant and irritating.

Comment #28: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  11/22  at  03:18 PM

Since when is atheism an activist interest group dedicated to ending religion, rather than a descriptor for people who don’t believe in a god/gods?

<blockquote>...even if you are not activist as an atheist, the fact that you don’t believe suggests that you agree with other atheists that religious belief is foolish at best.<blockquote>

Not only that; merely by existing and not acting like a raving lunatic about it, being an overt atheist implicitly calls into question the non-atheist’s rationality.  Activism is not required.  In fact, I think it’s easier for the religious to dismiss the obnoxiously activist atheist as being deluded/in thrall to the Evil One than to deal with a calm and rational person arguing from a scientific basis.  Only the most ignorant or hopelessly rabidly religious individuals might avoid unease faced with the latter approach, if they have any sense of intellectual honesty.

Comment #29: liberalrob  on  11/22  at  03:24 PM

Personally, the “I don’t believe but don’t care if others do” atheism strikes me as condescending, as if you think religious people are feeble and can’t be held to the same standard of vigorous discourse that you yourself hold yourself to.

Well, for me it’s more like, “I don’t believe, but I don’t care if others do so long as they don’t start pushing their beliefs on me.” I work at a church, so I practice a measure of tolerance for the belief in magical sky daddies. The church I work for is part of a progressive branch of Xiandom, but it’s still grounded in the illogical dogma of Christianity. No one tries to convert me, but, frankly, no one knows the extent of my disbelief.

But I seriously doubt that the majority of the congregation would be thrilled to learn I was an atheist. In fact, I suspect some would be at least a little hostile, if only behind my back. In my experience, religious people don’t want to be “held to the same standard of vigorous discourse.” You start lobbing logic their way and they put their hands to their ears and go, “La, la, la, la, la.” If that’s “condescending,” so be it. *Shrugs*

Comment #30: adobedragon  on  11/22  at  03:34 PM

Jayn Newell @ #9 Yes.
The biggest problem, I think, is the culture of evangelism in the Christian community. Christians are told to go out and ‘save’ others, and I think a lot of them have trouble figuring out that most people of different faiths don’t do the same.

Unfortunately,  many (or perhaps just the more vocal) of those who speak for atheists share much of that christian worldview—understandably, since many of them have been raised in that culture, or surrounded pretty nearly exclusively by it. If your sole/primary understanding of ‘religion’ is GodSaidItSoIt’sTrue (alt. DoWhatISayOrGoToHell), then yes, ‘religion’ is toxic. But many versions of ‘religion’, especially non-christian religions in the overwhelmingly christian US, are as much about culture and heritage as about any godstories. Even some variations of christianity are more about how to live well/compassionately in the real world than about GodSez.

And the reason I think this matters? Because blaming ‘religion’ as a whole, rather than specific approaches to the world held/supported by some, in a way whitewashes (/protects) those communities which are actively doing harm. And because I’m truly uninterested in godbelief—all I care about is how people act (and teach) in the world. It’s easier to get people to change their actions if you aren’t seen as attacking their beliefs and heritage and moral understanding of the world and… But if you actually are attacking those things, you’d better have something to offer them in exchange. Preferably something which isn’t completely foreign.

Now, if you really do want to do away with godbelief and/or christianity and/or other religions… well, that’s more than a lifetimes’ work, I suspect.  And, once you get beyond christians/former christians/‘nothing’ in a world defined by christians, you’re getting into a different kind of imperialism & cultural privilege.

Comment #31: TiaRachel  on  11/22  at  03:35 PM

Personally, the “I don’t believe but don’t care if others do” atheism strikes me as condescending

That’s odd to me.  Is it any more condescending than “I don’t like Devo but don’t care if others do”?  How does a statement about belief affect me?  As a _belief_, surely it can’t.  If someone _believes_ that the moon was the orbiting remains of a giant space alien (a headline I remember from the Weekly World News), so be it.  If this other person’s belief translates into bigoted, intolerant, harmful action, that’s another matter.

Comment #32: FlipYrWhig  on  11/22  at  03:41 PM

Just my perspective, but modern and post-modern theology has largely rendered those questions to the level of appreciating Devo. Ultimately though, I don’t define my atheism in terms of anti-theism, but in terms of developing meaning, morality, and praxis from materialism. I don’t need to critique 1,001 different theological systems to validate my own view of the world.

Comment #33: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  03:54 PM

Gelato man’s last apology seemed pretty sincere.

But the people who blame and curse religion aren’t doing it because there’s some innocent version - it’s not innocent of promoting magical thinking, us-vs-them, and authoritarian thought.  Not a single religion is innocent of all three.

Comment #34: Crissa  on  11/22  at  04:02 PM

Personally, the “I don’t believe but don’t care if others do” atheism strikes me as condescending

Isn’t this also the mindset desired of people of faith, though? Most of the problems associated with religion would be alleviated if people just minded their own business. As a person of some faith, I don’t like being preached to any more than atheists do, so I have an “I have my own beliefs and don’t care if you share them” mentality. Do unto others and all that jazz. So atheists wit a similar stance simply strike me as modeling expected behaviour.

Comment #35: Jayn Newell  on  11/22  at  04:21 PM

Not a single religion is innocent of all three.

How do you define ‘single’? According to which standards? Be wary of the fundamentalist argument here, where the entirety is defined by the worst/loudest/self-proclaimed ‘most real’...

And is ‘religion’ (again, how defined?) the exclusive source of these evils? If not—if any/all of your three categories of thought exists independent of ‘religion’, or if ‘religion’ can exist without one or more—then you need a stronger/more widespread analysis.

Comment #36: TiaRachel  on  11/22  at  04:39 PM

My husband’s view is that we just don’t really know, so it’s kind of a dumb thing to fight about.  He is unpersuaded that there is a god, but of course, he can’t say for certain, so he’s happy to let everyone reach their own conclusion.

That’s roughly me - also known as “agnosticism”. I don’t believe the existence or non-existence of a deity is something that can be absolutely proven/disproven by human reasoning. I don’t believe that there’s some mystical omnipotent sky fairy keeping a list of whose been naughty or nice, but I don’t claim to know with certitude that there is no divine being in the universe. I don’t believe it is possible to know for certain whether or not “god/s” exist. I lean towards the atheist agnostic position - I don’t really think that there is a god, but I’m open to the possibility that I could be wrong.

Comment #37: DTGslu2K  on  11/22  at  05:35 PM

Been busy, but…  You can kick me out, but I don’t care what other people choose to think and believe…  as long as their beliefs do not impinge on my life.  How people choose to live their private lives is their own concern.  I want the public space secular.

Comment #38: James  on  11/22  at  05:57 PM

I think it’s worth noting that atheism - unlike race, religion, gender, or sexuality - is a very covert characteristic.  It is unlikely that you could pick an atheist out of a line-up, for instance.  The Gelato Store owner likely wouldn’t have been able to keep Skepticon attendees out, unless said attendees came in jabbering about the Con or wearing matching t-shirts or something. 

An atheist, because s/he isn’t easily identifiable, doesn’t get subjected to the kind of bigotry and vitriol that a black or Muslim or female peer would experience.  If s/he was, I suspect we’d see a heavier history of atheist persecution - “No Jews, Dogs, Negros, or Atheists” signs in parking lots or anti-atheist voting laws or pogroms to evict atheists from universities and industry or some such. 

Because we don’t have a history of that kind of shared bigotry, it’s easy to think “who I am” and “what I believe” are different questions.  But if the consequences of bigotry - that I can’t eat at a lunch counter or travel in public without being harassed - are the same, I’m not really clear why we should treat the problem any differently.

Every belief system looks for converts.  I don’t think that really excuses an individual’s desire to treat his neighbor as less than human.

Comment #39: Zifnab  on  11/22  at  06:07 PM

When you have atheist kids, this distinction that Amanda talks about becomes more clear.  People who were handing out religious tracts, and having their kids hand out religious tracts, got really, really upset when my sons attempted to play the “you shared yours, now I’ll share my thinking” game.  It was somehow completely acceptable for their child to “witness” to my kids and hand them dreck ... but not okay for that same marketplace of ideas to lead my sons to explain the reasons why they did not believe in God.  I’ve had parents of their peers hate on me for the same reasons - that their kid started spouting off about god and sin and hell was okay, but that my kid got them questioning those same certainties was not.

The point isn’t identity politics - the point is a free marketplace of ideas.  We don’t have that marketplace when certain types of Christians play the persecution card every time their prosletyzing is met with entreties to reason or sharing of another belief system.

Not that I am averse to my boys receiving and reading Jack Chick tracts, as they have grown to covet them for their cheeze, sleeze, and leaps of logic all on their own ...

Comment #40: Ms Kate  on  11/22  at  07:04 PM

Re:  Comment #36: TiaRachel on 11/22 at 04:39 PM

Really?  What did you think your picking at a single word would gain you?  What position do you espouse?  Because your comment stated none of those things.  And just because A can exist without B does not mean B cannot exist without A.  Your comment is a logical failure.

No, my statement wasn’t about tarring a whole religion with nut picking.

Comment #41: Crissa  on  11/22  at  07:56 PM

I think that this post really gets at the heart of the difference between “mean” atheists and “nice” atheists that so often starts flame wars on this and other blogs. A lot of atheists (myself included) are perfectly content to let people believe whatever stupid shit lets them sleep at night so long as atheists are respected and able to “come out” as it were to friends, family, employers, etc and not fear reprecussions and religion is kept mainly a private matter. The idea that atheists by definition have to argue down religion is a huge obstical to people who just want to be atheists in peace. And I think just about every religion directly threatens the validity of every other religion; either the pope is god’s mouthpiece on earth, or just pedophile in a silly hat: it doesn’t matter whether the opposition is protestant, taoist, or hindu. In fact, I figured out that religion is bull because I lived in a multi-culti college town and new that the muslim, hindu, and christian kids I knew couldn’t all be right.

I am really glad you wrote this post, and I think your observations about identity vs idea are spot on and recognizing the different view points can help move beyond the butthurt to actual discussions about how to proceed.

Comment #42: alysia  on  11/22  at  08:59 PM

I have often wondered why white-d00d atheists in a predominately christian society consider it so important to view themselves as equivalent to black americans under jim crow.

Comment #43: PhysioProf  on  11/22  at  09:26 PM

To me atheism is a lot like abolitionism.  Instead of fighting against literal slavery, atheists fight against a form of mental slavery.  And there is a lot of overlap between the two, many 19th Century atheists or secularists were also prominent abolitionists too.

Comment #44: Albert Cirrus  on  11/22  at  10:23 PM

Because it’s the only form of oppression white dudes face.

Comment #45: stubbles  on  11/22  at  10:38 PM

@stubbles, other than of course the Patriarchy, homophobia, etc. 

Comment #46: Punditus Maximus  on  11/22  at  11:15 PM

How many atheist politicians do you know of?

I think that’s why, PhysioProf.  Not only can Athiests be invisible - so to can their oppression.

Comment #47: Crissa  on  11/23  at  12:46 AM

Like, say, a billboard company refusing an ad for an atheist group:
http://midohioatheists.org/?p=1120

It’s usually invisible.  But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Comment #48: Crissa  on  11/23  at  12:54 AM

#47

At a national level I know Pete Stark, but I’m sure that there are maybe a handful of others who are in the closet about their atheism.  I’m sure when my generation starts to run for office, more of them will be non-religious as the older generations start to lose power.  But until then, atheists will for awhile still be the only group that it is socially acceptable to bash.

Comment #49: Albert Cirrus  on  11/23  at  07:01 AM

Because we don’t have a history of that kind of shared bigotry, it’s easy to think “who I am” and “what I believe” are different questions. 

“Atheist” is a poorer marker of identity than “skeptic,” someone who doesn’t believe for belief’s sake. If Loki or Zeus showed up at our doorsteps tomorrow, we would give more weight to the god theory. Atheism gets all the attention because religion happens to be the most powerful woo out there, but atheism really isn’t the point, and someday it’ll be as uncontroversial as acceptance of germ theory. If religious thinking survives, its strongest proponents will be the most stubborn permanent-agnostic types, who aren’t doing any real harm on their own. Most people will be atheists because everyone else is, without ever having to learn to think for themselves or be in a minority.

But most people probably won’t ever become skeptics, and there will always be people who are threatened by others doubting or disagreeing with their unquestioned beliefs. Of course, hating people for disagreeing with you is harder than hating them for being godless hellbound infidels, so they’ll just have to adapt.

Comment #50: junk science  on  11/23  at  07:35 AM

This is great and has definitely helped me articulate why (particularly as an atheist in the UK where being an atheist isn’t really any kind of issue for -most- people until you start writing about it on the side of a bus) I was so uncomfortable with the ‘help help we are being oppressed’ tone from several bloggers, as being atheist can often be an indicator of someone having buttloads of privilege in many other ways.

That and the insistence on NOT accepting an apparently sincere apology and the decrying of those who have as being ‘accommodationist’?  I’ve never been much of a fan of the honey/vinegar argument but for many oppressed groups, holding to such a take-no-prisoners stance just isn’t a real option the way it is for activist atheists - and most assuredly a lot of the people making this argument - who are insulated from many of the typical repercussions by the aforementioned (chances are) privileges.

Comment #51: aligorami  on  11/23  at  09:06 AM

@34: some strains of Quakerism and Unitarian Universalism?

Comment #52: vim876  on  11/23  at  09:20 AM

@42 i like to say “im an atheist, not an asshole.”  i live in a state where it’s perfectly acceptable for the second question a complete and total stranger to ask you is “where do you go to church?”  i smile and nod and it’s annoying but seeing as i dont know them from adam, im not about to tear into this person, because, well, it would make “us” look bad. 

however, next time im in springfield, i will make sure not to patronise this establishment.  andy’s frozen custard is awesome anyway.

Comment #53: gardenom  on  11/23  at  11:09 AM

Personally, the “I don’t believe but don’t care if others do” atheism strikes me as condescending, as if you think religious people are feeble and can’t be held to the same standard of vigorous discourse that you yourself hold yourself to.

I dunno. I don’t hold other people to the workout schedule I hold myself to. or the book devouring. I understand there are many people out there who had to fight for their non-belief, but I also think there are many like me who were simply raised without. my parents never took me to church and I have to say I was fascinated for a long time by religion because I couldn’t figure out what it was that made people believe like that. I’d go to churches to see if the spririt moved me and once ended up in bible camp for a couple weeks when my mom needed someplace to put me while she worked. when the preacher called for…what do they say? when you go up and pray?...I went up to the altar and got on my knees and prayed. nothing.

but that was the 70’s before people started getting really batshit crazy about their religion. maybe it was because I was a kid, but it just didn’t seem to matter as much then. some people went to church - fine. some didn’t - fine. then the 80’s came with the moral majority and everything went to hell. and xians were called upon to start this stupid crusade to save the US from the bogeyman. and those are the jerks that piss me off. so you can say that they started the war, but does that mean I have to fight too? can’t I just turn the other cheek? live and let live?

 

Comment #54: shade  on  11/23  at  12:46 PM

This post is crap, as this is a dead-on example of discrimination. It doesn’t matter if a lot of atheists happen to be upper-middle class and/or educated. Blatantly banning someone for NOT believing in a fairy tale is unequivocally a prime example of bigotry. This isn’t CNN so we don’t expect to see that miserable “both sides” bollocks.

Comment #55: FYouMudFlaps  on  11/23  at  01:36 PM

Crissa @41: My main point is that you’re speaking from a position of majority-culture privilege. Yes, even though you’re not ‘christian’ in a predominantly christian culture. Chances are, you’d feel quite comfortable with the same culture absent all the hyper-christianity. Also, the idea of what ‘religion’ is varies somewhat among cultures. By insisting on an undefined understanding of ‘religion’, which is then condemned, you’re both falling back into your own culturally-based ‘everyone knows’ mental space, and potentially stepping on the ‘everyone knows’ mental space of those with a different culturally-inherited understanding. The stomping-out of ‘religion’ can also be heard as a stomping-out of cultures which do not have the comfort of being in the majority.

My other point is that, if ‘religion’ (however you define it) is not entirely and exclusively responsible for whichever evil(s) you’re targeting, then there are other factors involved. These need to be looked at, if you’re serious about eliminating or lessening their impact.

(and the ‘single’ business—there are christians who’ll deny that other versions of christianity are the same religion, and people who’ll insist that the ‘Abrahamic” religions are essentially identical. Depends on what they consider the ‘essence,’ of course. Which ties right into my main point.)

Comment #56: TiaRachel  on  11/23  at  02:42 PM

You’re being awful presumptive, Tia.

Culture ≠ Religion.

Undefined?  I just don’t understand religion enough?  But everyone knows?

Fuck.

Fuckity fuck.  I already told you I wasn’t nut-picking.  I don’t care if it’s a single church, a parish, the vatican, or the most remote buddhist monk on a mountaintop - or the statue seated at the base of my front walk.  Not a single one doesn’t suffer from one of the three on my list.

You’re a fucking tool to come and pretend your great knowledge shows how overbearing and bigoted I am for saying there is a fault to religion.

Fuck you.  There’s a fault to lots of things - that means you should be aware of the faults, not that the things should be eliminated entirely.  Not that Religion is Culture.  It’s not.  So don’t pretend that you’re better and I’m bigoted because I pointed out the fault of RELIGION, this concept with A DEFINITION in a dictionary.

Fuck.

Comment #57: Crissa  on  11/23  at  04:18 PM

@ TiaRachel

Do you think a culture or religion, any culture or religion, should be protected, specifically: protected from non-violent no-force criticism, not “stomping out” by government or force, when it promotes magical thinking, us-vs them mentalities, and/or authoritarianism?

Also: what religion doesn’t promote magical thinking?

@ PhysioProf

I’ve never encountered a white atheist so ignorant to think that their oppression by religious people is the same as being black under jim crow. While I’ll accept that such people do exist I’m wondering if you know where on the net I can find these kinds of atheists? I want to read their writings and despair.

And are you sure you aren’t taking the examples of atheists replacing references to themselves in a statement made by religious people with other groups to highlight the bigotry as examples of white atheists really believing themselves to be as oppressed as more disadvantaged groups?
—-

While I’m at it, this is in general not meant to be directed at you PhysioProf, atheists make up about 9% (even if they don’t identify specifically as atheist, not believing in a deity makes one defacto atheist) of the population in the US. This is not reflected in positions of power, such as in government legislature or other elected positions, and I think can only be explain by bigotry and oppression. With so much as two atheists in a group of over a hundred religious figures to meet with President Obama being enough to send religious people into a tizzy is, I think, a notable illustration of the hatred of atheists in the US. That is, on top of that infamous poll that shows that the population of the US especially hates atheists.

Furthermore the actions of governmental bodies, including in the military, to include prayer at the beginning of their sessions or affirmations of a god (exclusively the Christian version of god) is an expression of bigotry and oppression meant to push groups that are not Christian, which include atheists, out of the government by creating a hostile environment.

Comment #58: R.T.  on  11/23  at  10:01 PM

what religion doesn’t promote magical thinking?

Zen Buddhism.

Zen is a school of Mahāyāna Buddhism founded by the Buddhist monk Bodhidharma. The word Zen is from the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese word Chán (禪), which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyāna, which can be approximately translated as “meditation” or “meditative state.”

Zen emphasizes experiential wisdom in the attainment of enlightenment. As such, it de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge in favor of direct self-realization through meditation and dharma practice. The teachings of Zen include various sources of Mahāyāna thought, including the Prajñāpāramitā literature, Madhyamaka, Yogācāra and the Tathāgatagarbha Sutras.

The emergence of Zen as a distinct school of Buddhism was first documented in China in the 7th century CE. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, and east to Korea and Japan. As a matter of tradition, the establishment of Zen is credited to the South Indian Pallava prince-turned-monk Bodhidharma, who came to China during the rise of Tamil Buddhism in Tamilakam to teach a “special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters.”

  It both is and is not;
  neither is, nor is not.

      —Siddhartha Gautama

Comment #59: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/23  at  10:16 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

The thing with magical thinking is that it assumes a cause to actions that are not actually intertwined with cause and effect or with things that even exist, such as prayer accomplishing real acts, god or supernatural entities intervening in a car accident in which the victims escape unscathed, breaking a mirror causes one to have 7 years of unfortunate events, and so on.

I don’t understand how Zen Buddhism escapes magical thinking based on the assumption of conclusions through certain actions, like spiritual transcendence through meditation and self-realization.

However I’m no expert on Zen Buddhism, so I could be misinterpreting the teaching, but it does appear to me that magical thinking is at the core of the belief system.

Comment #60: R.T.  on  11/23  at  11:31 PM

Buddhism does invoke magical thinking.  Duh.  Prayers, reincarnation, chakras, energy.

As much as I love buddhist aesthetics and management of emotions, it’s still filled with spiritual mumbo-jumbo.

Comment #61: Crissa  on  11/24  at  01:20 AM

i agree that atheism is more an idea, i think that this is damn true..

Comment #62: mutuelle  on  11/24  at  03:13 AM

Buddhism does invoke magical thinking.  Duh.  Prayers, reincarnation, chakras, energy.

I don’t understand how Zen Buddhism escapes magical thinking based on the assumption of conclusions through certain actions, like spiritual transcendence through meditation and self-realization

Well, crissa, if you read the article I linked to instead of reflexively posting off the top of your head, you’ll find that Zen Buddhism doesn’t involve believing/performing prayers, chakras, energy, etc. 

Duh!

RT, the claims of attaining/getting to satori aren’t based in the supernatural.

Comment #63: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/24  at  05:30 AM

#13 Punditus Maximus, as a Penn State alum I have to correct you:  Penn State football is a religion, at least for some.  I’m not saying the rest of your post is wrong, but spend some time in the area and you’ll see passion and irrational reverence equivalent to that of the most zealous fundamentalist.  That’s why the fans are losing it - their icons are under direct attack from outsiders (here defined as anyone who does not accept the sanctity of Joe Pa).

I think it’s been said here before that a lot of cultural identity is religious in nature, e.g. “market fundamentalism.”  Part of why I like the using skeptic instead of atheist is that - as an umbrella term - it includes critiquing of non-theistic faith claims.  Is there a term that encapsulates both explicitly and implicitly religious fervor?  I think that’s a meme we should get going.

Comment #64: copper  on  11/24  at  07:03 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

Magical thinking isn’t limited to supernatural things, it’s basically attributing causes to effects or effects or events to causes that are not actually linked together.

Reading more about Zen Buddhism, I still think magical thinking is part of its core system. It makes claims about meditation leading to things that meditation doesn’t lead to, or has not been shown to exist.

Comment #65: R.T.  on  11/25  at  12:08 AM

Reading more about Zen Buddhism, I still think magical thinking is part of its core system.

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/25  at  06:12 AM

But there are those who consider Zen a philosophical entity than a religious belief, and it (Zen) doesn’t make any special claims for satori(which, being a mental attitude, is hard to understand in the first place).

It makes claims about meditation leading to things that meditation doesn’t lead to, or has not been shown to exist.

Meditation has been demonstrated to allow Tibetian Buddhist monks who practice a form handed down through an oral tradition to drop their oxygen use by 67%,  or to raise their body temperature so that they can keep warm in a cold environment.

Now, does that mean that what the monks believe in is true?  No, but it does have results that Western science can’t replicate in ordinary people, even given the fact known to physiologists for decades that any bodily function/reflex can theoretically under conscious control.

Meditation will never cure cancer or many of the ills the flesh is heir to, but I suggest you do some more reading before coming to a premature conclusion in the first place.

Comment #67: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/25  at  06:24 AM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

Zen Teachings:

Zen asserts, as do other schools in Maha-ya-na Buddhism, that all sentient beings have Buddha-nature

Assertion without evidence.

transcendent wisdom

Transcending what? The typical idea of what is wisdom? Humanity? Material? The universe? Transcending the concept of wisdom?

Buddha-nature is nothing other than the essential nature of the mind itself.

What is the essential nature of the mind?

The aim of Zen practice is to discover this Buddha-nature within each person, through meditation and practice of the Buddha’s teachings. The ultimate goal of this is to become a Completely Enlightened Buddha

So, in order to discover something that no evidence for has been presented nor defined, we’ll sit and think to go beyond… something, and sometimes do rituals. Hopefully we’ll be awakened to knowing the TRUTH.

^^ This is magical thinking.

Anyway Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein, you show me how Zen Buddhism doesn’t encourage magical thinking if you are going to continue claiming that it does not.

By the way there are all sorts of people who have control over their bodies in the way Buddhist monks do who are not Buddhist. If controlling your body is the goal, which is not the goal of Zen Buddhism as the article you’ve linked to states, than one doesn’t have to be a Buddhist. I have no idea what you are trying to say or prove by bringing that up.

Comment #68: R.T.  on  11/25  at  07:33 AM

Assertion without evidence.

Yes, what’s known in logic as an axiom:

In traditional logic, an axiom or postulate is a proposition that is not proven or demonstrated but considered either to be self-evident or to define and delimit the realm of analysis. In other words, an axiom is a logical statement that is assumed to be true. Therefore, its truth is taken for granted, and serves as a starting point for deducing and inferring other (theory dependent) truths.

Transcending what? The typical idea of what is wisdom? Humanity? Material? The universe? Transcending the concept of wisdom?

The concept of satori, which I’ve mentioned several times, and which doesn’t seem to your logical mind to be worth investigating.

In the Zen Buddhist tradition, satori refers to a flash of sudden awareness, or individual enlightenment, and is considered a “first step” or embarkation toward nirvana.

................................................................................

Satori in the Zen tradition does not actually happen to an individual, rather it is a realization out of all concepts including the individual. Practitioners of Zen Buddhism, however, work to realize the true nature of existence. The student’s mind often must be prepared by rigorous study, with the use of koans, and with meditation to clear the mind of all attachments to the physical world.

It is therefore customary to use the word satori, rather than kensho, when referring to the realization of the Buddha and the Patriarchs with Bodhisattvas; these figures recognized that “all things are Buddha things” and therefore any separation between self and the universe is illusory.

According to D. T. Suzuki, “Satori is the raison d’être of Zen, without which Zen is no Zen. Therefore every contrivance, disciplinary and doctrinal, is directed towards satori.”[1]

To paraphrase Einstein, the transcendental wisdom you ask about is simply the realization that any feeling of separation between an individual and the universe is an illusion, albeit, a stubborn one.

What is the essential nature of the mind?

Alan Watts, who was a ‘popularizer’ of Zen in the 1950s and 1960s, would tell you that mind is the universes’ way at looking at itself.


If you enjoy having “mondo” or enlightening dialogue - these CD’s are for you. In them Watt’s personality comes across clearly and his philosphy rolls from him naturally. If you’re not already familiar with Watts its hard to describe what you’re missing. What I can say is this collection is worth the cost. In it Watts speaks in a manner that is recognizably truthful and attempts to present a new ‘mythology’ by which we can see the world as it really is.

So, in order to discover something that no evidence for has been presented nor defined, we’ll sit and think to go beyond… something, and sometimes do rituals. Hopefully we’ll be awakened to knowing the TRUTH.

^^ This is magical thinking.

There are no rituals involved, to characterize Zen Buddhism in such a way demonstrates a lack of knowledge or understanding of what meditation, koans, etc, are about.

There’s no ‘chant your way to satori’ in Zen, R. T.  I thought even a biased observer such as yourself would figure that one out without my input.

By the way there are all sorts of people who have control over their bodies in the way Buddhist monks do who are not Buddhist.

I know, I’m one of them, and what I also have in common with those you mention is that I can’t teach you or anyone else how to do it.  All I would have to offer would be training in some ‘baby steps’, like breathing exercises, that you would undoubtedly label ‘hocus-pocus’.

I have no idea what you are trying to say or prove by bringing that up.

Simply put, that these monks have developed a transmissible tradition of bodily control that arose from their teachings, and our ‘modern science’ is able to study it, but not replicate it.

Scientism is as much a philosophical conceit as any religion created by humanity, IMHO.

Comment #69: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/25  at  08:29 AM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

Throwing out words isn’t explaining. I looked up what satori meant in relationship to Zen, it’s more than an attitude, it’s part of a process.

To paraphrase Einstein, the transcendental wisdom you ask about is simply the realization that any feeling of separation between an individual and the universe is an illusion, albeit, a stubborn one.

Which of course, doesn’t “transcend” anything. Why use the word then?

Alan Watts, who was a ‘popularizer’ of Zen in the 1950s and 1960s, would tell you that mind is the universes’ way at looking at itself.

That makes it seem like the universe is an agent, but really says nothing about the mind.

I could state that mind a product of the laws of physics, and be as right and devoid of meaning at the same time.

Neurology, biology, and chemistry can tell us much more about mind than that.

There are no rituals involved, to characterize Zen Buddhism in such a way demonstrates a lack of knowledge or understanding of what meditation, koans, etc, are about.

The article you link to says otherwise.

There’s no ‘chant your way to satori’ in Zen, R. T.  I thought even a biased observer such as yourself would figure that one out without my input.

I know, I’m so “biased” because I expect claims to conform to observational reality and be backed with evidence.

I know, I’m one of them, and what I also have in common with those you mention is that I can’t teach you or anyone else how to do it.  All I would have to offer would be training in some ‘baby steps’, like breathing exercises, that you would undoubtedly label ‘hocus-pocus’.

I would call it BS if you said putting a red ball in your pocket would help you control your breathing without showing evidence that a red ball has an effect on breathing. The fact that you can’t teach it doesn’t mean it can’t be taught, I’ve seen it taught to someone with no background in controlling one’s body and they had immediate results, if not the same as the person doing the teaching.

Simply put, that these monks have developed a transmissible tradition of bodily control that arose from their teachings, and our ‘modern science’ is able to study it, but not replicate it.

You don’t understand science. The method takes pains to accurately make and explain observations and replicate those observations. Monks aren’t anything special.

Scientism is as much a philosophical conceit as any religion created by humanity, IMHO.

What’s it like to be so wrong?

Comment #70: R.T.  on  11/25  at  06:55 PM

To add: you haven’t defended your claim that Zen Buddhism doesn’t promote magical thinking.

And I’ve done my homework, which I shouldn’t have had to do, to investigate your claim because you don’t appear to know what you need to know to defend any claim. The articles you link to say something you say they don’t, so you are wrong or the article and their linked articles are wrong, and I’ll bet on the former.

Comment #71: R.T.  on  11/25  at  07:11 PM

Which of course, doesn’t “transcend” anything. Why use the word then?

Transcend, in the sense of being a lone ego adrift in the universe, and transcending that sense of individuality.

Neurology, biology, and chemistry can tell us much more about mind than that.

Mind as an emergent process that allows the Universe to look at itself.

The article you link to says otherwise.

The liturgy used is a tool to allow the practitioner to transcend the old conceptions of self and other. In this way, intimate liturgy practice allows one to realize emptiness (sunyata), which is at the heart of Zen Buddhist teachings.

OMFB, they used Buddhist liturgy as a tool!

You really caught me out there, R.T.

not.

I know, I’m so “biased” because I expect claims to conform to observational reality and be backed with evidence.

As we used to say in the 60s’, eat shit, a billion flies can’t be wrong.

Perhaps if you were to read more observations and the literature of Zen Buddhism, that would be your evidence.

Or remain ignorant if you please, after all, writing something off based on the content of some article on the subject in the Wikipedia and a book review, or does your research conform to observational reality?

I would call it BS if you said putting a red ball in your pocket would help you control your breathing without showing evidence that a red ball has an effect on breathing. The fact that you can’t teach it doesn’t mean it can’t be taught, I’ve seen it taught to someone with no background in controlling one’s body and they had immediate results, if not the same as the person doing the teaching.

I’m talking about little parlor tricks, like holding ones’ breath for a couple of minutes, and you still couldn’t teach them to reduce their oxygen consumption by 67% or demonstrate the same control over their physiology that has been documented in laboratories studying Tibetan Buddhist monks.

That’s the point you’re missing here.

You don’t understand science. The method takes pains to accurately make and explain observations and replicate those observations. Monks aren’t anything special.

Replicate the scientifically documented, evidence-based accomplishements of Tibetan Buddhist monks yourself and/or with others, and then you’ll have reason enough to feel smug.

What’s it like to be so wrong?

I dunno, you tell me.

Religion and philosophy

Philosopher of religion Keith Ward has said scientism is philosophically inconsistent or even self-refuting, as the truth of the statements “no statements are true unless they can be proven scientifically (or logically)” or “no statements are true unless they can be shown empirically to be true” cannot themselves be proven scientifically, logically, or empirically.


Pace one Kurt Godel

The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an “effective procedure” (e.g., a computer program, but, may be any any sort of algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the relations of the natural numbers (arithmetic). For any such system, there will always be statements about the natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system. The second incompleteness theorem, a corollary of the first, shows that such a system cannot demonstrate its own consistency.

To add: you haven’t defended your claim that Zen Buddhism doesn’t promote magical thinking.

I hope I’m worth all the effort and time you’ve spent in this thread so far.

Zen does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes.” 

“To be angry about trifles is mean and childish; to rage and be furious is brutish; and to maintain perpetual wrath is akin to the practice and temper of devils; but to prevent and suppress rising resentment is wise and glorious, is manly and divine.”

Alan Watts

Yes, that’s a real example of magical thinking.

I’ve done my homework, which I shouldn’t have had to do, to investigate your claim because you don’t appear to know what you need to know to defend any claim.

I’ll let the peanut gallery here be the judge of that.

 

Comment #72: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/25  at  08:55 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

You can’t explain by personal fault or because the facts contradict your claim that Zen Buddhism doesn’t promote magical thinking so you accuse me with ignorance and bias. I just wanted evidence and your words, not wishy-washy definitions and special pleading, and the expectation that I investigate your claims to your satisfaction instead of you meeting the burden of proof.

I do not have a case to make as all I had was a question, you’ve made a claim and you’ve failed to show your claim. You mistake me being unconvinced with me trying to refute you.

“Scientism” slays me, like it’s a fault and bias to expect that things claimed to exist be observed to exist.

Comment #73: R.T.  on  11/25  at  10:08 PM

You can’t explain by personal fault or because the facts contradict your claim that Zen Buddhism doesn’t promote magical thinking so you accuse me with ignorance and bias.

I find it interesting how the defense of rationality can lead one to such irrational tactics as ‘poisoning the well’ and engaging in emotionalism instead of sticking to facts and logic.

I just wanted evidence and your words, not wishy-washy definitions and special pleading, and the expectation that I investigate your claims to your satisfaction instead of you meeting the burden of proof.

Then you should’ve had no problem in being specific in where I have engaged in wishy-washy definitions and identify where I’ve used special pleading in my posts on this thread.

I do not have a case to make as all I had was a question, you’ve made a claim and you’ve failed to show your claim. You mistake me being unconvinced with me trying to refute you.

Yes, you’re so unconvinced that you expend a great deal of empty rhetoric in making that fact apparent to all who read this thread.

“Scientism” slays me, like it’s a fault and bias to expect that things claimed to exist be observed to exist.

More unspecific complaints, it makes your case so much better and puts me in a bad light

not.

You’ll believe what you want to believe, R. T.

Mundus vult decipi

 

 

Comment #74: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/25  at  10:51 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

Show me evidence, of observable, testable things if you want to convince me of your claim.

Appealing to philosophy, including the philosophies of mathematics doesn’t show me a fact. Calling me smug because I don’t accept special pleading for Buddhist monks doesn’t show me a fact. Using a word that means different things for different sects, even religions tells me nothing even if it means something to you.

“Transcendence,” “spiritual/spirituality” are red flag words and need to be defined. These words are in the article you linked to and in the quote you use. Saying something is philosophy instead of religion doesn’t mean it lacks magical thinking. And why at my question about religion bring up Zen Buddhism, then say it may be more a philosophy instead of religion? It’s like you’re trying to change the definitions of the words you use.

If you want to know the reason why I’m continuing to write with you it is because I’m interested in your claim. I’m genuinely interested in knowing a religion that doesn’t promote magical thinking, but then Zen Buddhism isn’t a religion anymore a few post after it is indicated that it is.

If you’re trying to convince me of your claim and I remain unconvinced, faulting me (rather than yourself for failing) for that is like faulting me for even being in a dialogue with you. If you just want to assert whatever you want without inquiry from others, just say so.

Comment #75: R.T.  on  11/26  at  02:02 AM

Show me evidence, of observable, testable things if you want to convince me of your claim.

You do realize that I can’t demonstrate a MRI or use other physical means to demonstrate that sartori has taken place in anyone.

“Transcendence,” “spiritual/spirituality” are red flag words and need to be defined.

I did so for the first term, but you didn’t want to accept it, and I suspect that any definition I gave of the latter term wouldn’t be up to your standards, no matter what.

These words are in the article you linked to and in the quote you use.

Yes, because if I can’t define all the words used in a Wiki article about a given subject, you have reason to doubt what it says.

Saying something is philosophy instead of religion doesn’t mean it lacks magical thinking.

You have yet to demonstrate this ‘magical thinking’ in Zen Buddhism specifically after I demonstrated that the Buddhist liturgy is a tool in Zen Buddhism, not magical thinking.

Do you think I was so stupid as to not notice that fact?

And why at my question about religion bring up Zen Buddhism, then say it may be more a philosophy instead of religion?

I prefer to approach it as a philosophy, but approaching it as a religion is equally valid with or without definitions.

It’s like you’re trying to change the definitions of the words you use.

Lots of accusations, but little specificity as to where I have done these intellectually indefensible things.

You think intelligent people don’t notice that about your responses to me here? 

If you want to know the reason why I’m continuing to write with you it is because I’m interested in your claim. I’m genuinely interested in knowing a religion that doesn’t promote magical thinking, but then Zen Buddhism isn’t a religion anymore a few post after it is indicated that it is.

After asking me what it’s like to be so wrong, you want to continue the discussion on your terms.

I’m sorry, I’m so wrong, I can’t engage with you on your terms.

If you’re trying to convince me of your claim and I remain unconvinced, faulting me (rather than yourself for failing) for that is like faulting me for even being in a dialogue with you.

No, I’m faulting you for defending rationality with such irrational tactics.

If you just want to assert whatever you want without inquiry from others, just say so.

False dichotomy.

If I’m wrong, why are you so het up about it?

That’s the question for the peanut gallery to answer, not you or me.

It’s been fun by the way, I always enjoy it when someone displays the panic and irrationality one would expect of a Southern Baptist confronted with irrefutable evidence that the world is more than 6,000 years old.

Comment #76: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/26  at  03:03 AM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

I’ll continue this conversation tomorrow as my sleeping drugs have kicked in and I have trouble writing my thoughts down once that happens.

If you want it: I apologize for being mean to you, I was wrong to be mean to you and instead of losing my patience I should have explained things and my objections more clearly and more neutrally to you. I want a discourse with good faith on both sides. Could you, in return, stop talking down to me and stop insisting that I am to investigate your claims and belief systems when you bear the burden of proof?

Comment #77: R.T.  on  11/26  at  06:06 AM

Could you, in return, stop talking down to me and stop insisting that I am to investigate your claims and belief systems when you bear the burden of proof?

I’m sorry, but you’ve had a shot to falsify what I’ve stated about Zen and have not done so in this thread.

Do you realize that you’re asking me to do what no Zen master or any of the Zen Patriarchs have never done in recorded history, which is to provide a logical, consistent, sensible account of how Zen works?

I’ll leave you with this Zen quote to ponder, along with a link to the Wiki article about Ten Bulls and the hope that you slept well where ever you may be living right now:

Before we study Zen, the mountains are mountains and the rivers are rivers. While we are studying Zen, however, the mountains are no longer mountains and the rivers are no longer rivers. But then, when our study of Zen is completed, the mountains are once again mountains and the rivers once again rivers.

Original Face

The pictures, poems and short pieces of prose tell how the student ventures into the wilderness in his search for “the Bull” (or “Ox”; a common metaphor for enlightenment, or the true self, or simply a regular human being), and how his efforts prove fruitless at first. Undeterred, he keeps searching and eventually finds footprints on a riverbank. When he sees the bull for the first time he is amazed by the splendour of its features (‘empty and marvellous’ is a well known phrase used to describe the perception of Buddha nature). However, the student has not tamed the bull, and must work hard to bring it under control. Eventually he reaches the highest Enlightenment, returns to the world and ‘everyone I look upon becomes enlightened’.

Ten Bulls

 

Comment #78: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/26  at  09:14 AM

Is it not magical thinking to make assertions about the nature of something of which you refuse to learn anything?

Comment #79: Ms Kate  on  11/26  at  09:54 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

I don’t have to refute/falsify a claim if I don’t accept it, if you think I have to, then you’re expecting more than someone who’s making a claim gets. I can refute a claim made to me if I deign to; I can accept it if it meets certain criteria; and I can also simply not accept a claim because I’m not convinced of its veracity or because I feel I don’t have the information that I’ll take as evidence.

I also feel that asking me to evaluate a claim about a philosophy from within that philosophical paradigm, as your quote indicates to me, rather than without is beyond the bounds of fair discourse.

To me, you seem like you’re not trying to back a claim but instead evangelize by employing that tactic.

I’ve read what you’ve presented to me and more about Zen Buddhism from neutral and pro positions and am not convinced of your claim. There’s no reason to have a problem with me over that. If you have more to offer that might convince me I’ll read what you have to say and you would not wasting your time or my time as I am interested in evaluating such claims even if I’ve yet to be convinced.

You mention that Zen Buddhism hasn’t ever been laid out in a logical manner that would show it doesn’t encourage magical thinking. So, then maybe it isn’t possible to convince that it doesn’t encourage magical thinking, but philosophies with magical thinking isn’t always a bad thing. Moral systems themselves are essentially built on magical thinking, as there is no encompassing objective framework to inform us of right and wrong other than what we choose is right and wrong. Systems can be laid on top these choices and their logic then explained, but at their most reductionist, these systems are just ones of choices and values and make no-logic leaps and associations and assumptions, but encouraging magical thinking to get people to do the right or fair or just thing, like in anti-oppression activism, isn’t the wrong thing to do.

Comment #80: R.T.  on  11/26  at  10:59 PM

I don’t have to refute/falsify a claim if I don’t accept it, if you think I have to, then you’re expecting more than someone who’s making a claim gets. I can refute a claim made to me if I deign to; I can accept it if it meets certain criteria; and I can also simply not accept a claim because I’m not convinced of its veracity or because I feel I don’t have the information that I’ll take as evidence.

Lots of words, but your semantic content is close to 0 here.

You’re the one who made that claim that Zen Buddhism involves magical thinking, and you’ve yet to give an example that would hold up to scrutiny and demonstrate your assertion is true.

You mention that Zen Buddhism hasn’t ever been laid out in a logical manner that would show it doesn’t encourage magical thinking.

Please, again, demonstrate where I have done what you say I have done.

So, then maybe it isn’t possible to convince that it doesn’t encourage magical thinking, but philosophies with magical thinking isn’t always a bad thing.

See what I mean folks?

I also feel that asking me to evaluate a claim about a philosophy from within that philosophical paradigm, as your quote indicates to me, rather than without is beyond the bounds of fair discourse.

Nope, I was asking to you educate yourself a little more on the subject than what you’ve read in a Wikipedia article and a few more references before making any such evaluations from without of Zen Buddhism.

To me, you seem like you’re not trying to back a claim but instead evangelize by employing that tactic.

You can’t explain by personal fault or because the facts contradict your claim that Zen Buddhism doesn’t promote magical thinking so you accuse me with ignorance and bias.

Pot,  meet kettle.

I’m sorry, R. T., but that I don’t respond as you would like me to doesn’t mean you can engage in intellectual dishonesty here and not have others notice, as Ms. Kate has already.

I’m not going to respond any further to your posts on this thread, because you aren’t interested in making a point, you’re interested in beating me over the head with a claim about Zen Buddhism without specifying a concrete example of that claim that I could defend or acquiesce in.

Given your poor logic and irrational defense of ‘rationality and non-magical thinking’, I’d advise you to be very careful at zebra crossings.

Comment #81: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/27  at  12:17 AM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

”Bodhisattavas never engage in conversations whose resolutions depend on words and logic.” -Shakyamuni Buddha

I wish knew this before inquiring about a claim (now a not-claim) about Zen Buddhism from you.

Comment #82: R.T.  on  11/27  at  01:19 AM

Didn’t I just tell you that one a while ago, R. T.?:

Do you realize that you’re asking me to do what no Zen master or any of the Zen Patriarchs have never done in recorded history, which is to provide a logical, consistent, sensible account of how Zen works?

I wish knew this before inquiring about a claim (now a not-claim) about Zen Buddhism from you.

Btw, that quote doesn’t make Zen Buddhism mystical, just because it avoids logic and words.

I realize the idea of non-duality isn’t in vogue since Pascal, but your dedication to that philosophical notion(duality) is most illuminating.

 

Comment #83: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/27  at  09:06 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.