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Next entry: Hearst didn’t have a sled called Rosebud Previous entry: Breaking up with “The Office”

Bamboo Review: The Social Network

Spoilers.

Fun with juxtapositions: Guess what I was doing right before I left the house to go see “The Social Network”?  I was reading about the Duke University woman who gained instant infamy by having a private joke about her sex life leaked onto the internet. I was struck by how overt the double standard was in this case; young men use bragging about conquests (with often way more derogatory commentary about their partners) as a way to score points with friends all the time.  I’m sure many elaborately document it for these purposes.  But they don’t get dragged on TV to apologize.

Then I go to see “The Social Network”, and the opening scene is an apparently true-to-life story of Mark Zuckerberg blogging horrible things about a woman because she dumped him, and his creating of Facemash, which was a “hot or not” kind of site that got him in some trouble with the school board.  Marc and I were annoyed as fuck at the idea that 22,000 hits would crash all of Harvard’s servers, which is a) ridiculous and b) turns out that it never happened.  But that Sorkin and Fincher decided to tack that on points to what I think the movie was trying to say about this incident.  In the movie, unlike real life, the focus in his disciplinary hearings was on the fact that he breached Harvard security and crashed Harvard servers.  He isn’t punished in any way for making misogynist sport out of his fellow students, even though this is objectively the worst thing that he did. 

I was already thinking about double standards, and subsequently I was intrigued by the juxtaposition.  Owen creates an intentionally private joke about her sex life that implicates no one but the direct parties involved, and she’s publicly shamed.  In this scene, we see a man do something much worse—-publicly humiliating a woman for dumping him and taking his anger out on basically all women—-and he ends up becoming a billionaire. 

There’s all sorts of caveats you can attach to this, of course.  The Zuckerberg thing is fictionalized and his financial success was built on something else entirely.  But it was still one that made obvious to me what I think was subtle to a lot of people in the audience, which is that the filmmakers are pointing you in a direction of being appalled that Zuckerberg got away with treating women so shabbily.

There’s a tendency for smart people to watch TV shows and movies, ignore the thoughts that are inspired in us, and instead focus on what we believe the lowest common denominator is getting from a film.  And then we hold the filmmakers accountable for the way we believe the lowest common denominator would react instead of thinking that perhaps our reactions were the point.  I think “The Social Network” has definitely created this problem, especially when it comes to women’s role in all this.  In the movie, smart, capable women are pushed to the sidelines and the main characters—-the various men who created and fought over the ownership of Facebook—-surround themselves with bimbos. And this is aggressively portrayed; at one point, two women in the room ask if they can help on a Facebook-related project, and they’re told they have nothing to contribute (insinuation: you are here to provide orgasms and shut up).  This was the contradictory reactions that arose in me:

My honest feeling about this: “This makes these guys look like assholes and nimrods.  They try a little too hard to prove that they’re Real Men, and in doing so, they deliberately use women as props.  There are a lot of men actually like this in the world, and a lot of media aimed at glamorizing a world where genuinely relating to women is treated as emasculating.  But watching these characters, I feel like they’re pathetic because they can’t actually cope with women who do anything but play the bimbo role.” 

My attempt at reading what the lowest common denominator thinks: “Cool. I wish hot bitches would just shut up and fuck me, too.” 

You often see people who make the mistake of arguing that portraying equals endorsing, which means that they disregard the discomfort they feel when, say, misogyny is portrayed onscreen.  They assume straightaway that their discomfort is wholly theirs, and that the filmmakers didn’t intend to provoke their discomfort. I’ve even made this assumption myself, and have to watch for it. You even see this interpretation when it comes to something like “Mad Men”, where it couldn’t be more obvious that they’re hoping you suck your teeth when the characters do something really sexist or racist.  And when it comes to “The Social Network”, I’m seeing a lot of people assume that the filmmakers had no intention whatsoever of making you question the misogyny they portray onscreen.  The evidence for this is a lack of Strong Female Characters that are central to the story.


Here is why I think that it’s wrong to think that Sorkin and Fincher are trying to do anything but make you uncomfortable with the casual misogyny of the main characters in the movie: it bugs the shit out of everyone who sees it. If they didn’t intend to make a movie that was interrogating toxic masculinity and its effect on women, they managed to make a movie where that theme is the main one that everyone who leaves the theater appears to be discussing.  At a certain point, the thing that is most notable about “The Social Network” might just be the thing that the movie is about.  Or at least one of the things.

It’s not like there aren’t Strong Female Characters in “The Social Network”.  They’re there, but they are mostly hinted at, and one thing they have in common is that they find Mark Zuckerberg and his buddies repulsive.  The one character we see ingratiating herself into their group is openly portrayed as obsessive and probably mentally ill.  The conclusion the audience reaches—-and I suspect this was the point—-was that women who have their shit together know well enough to stay far the fuck away from these guys.  And in case that point wasn’t clear enough, the opening and closing scenes involve Zuckerberg interacting with these women.  Or,  more to the point, being basically shoved off by them. 

Indeed, the last scene in the movie is so powerful, I realized, because it was all focused on two things whose absence is most keenly felt throughout this entire movie about Facebook: women who aren’t bimbos and a human being interacting with Facebook in a way that indicates why it took off like it did.  Up until the last scene, we hear people talk about Facebook.  We see it pulled up on screen.  But we never actually see anyone use Facebook.  It’s not because watching people use software is boring, either.  We have tons of scenes of people coding, and we actually see more shots of someone interacting with the Harvard website and with LiveJournal than we do people actually using Facebook.  I think that the lampshade that’s hung on this for people who didn’t notice it was the scene where Eduardo Saverin admits he doesn’t know how to update his profile on Facebook. 

Thinking about this, I realized that this is a possible read on the film.  It’s about a lot of things: corporate intrigue, clashes between men, etc.  But it’s a movie that’s very much about absence, about what’s not there as much as what is there.

I made a list of the three most important things that motivate the character of Mark Zuckerberg that get almost no real attention onscreen: Facebook itself, smart women, and the final clubs.  We get little hints of those things, but they’re mainly portrayed in ways that emphasize the shutting out of Mark: he can’t walk past the bicycle club at the Porcellian, every interaction with a woman that’s not a bimbo results in her walking away from him after dressing him down, and when we see him interact with the site he built as a user, it’s only because he can’t get Erica to be his Facebook friend.  Also, Mark is shown having one real friend in the world and the entire movie is about him pushing that man out of his life.  There is little to no doubt that we’re supposed to view the character of Mark Zuckerberg as a man who may have billions of dollars, but whose life is void.  And this is driven home by a final scene where he, the founder of Facebook, can’t even get the woman who dumped him to be his Facebook friend.  I think the absence of certain things onscreen was a deliberate choice made to reflect the absence of those things in his life. 

That’s a whole lot of Rosebuds, in other words.

I suppose you could be angry about the lack of Strong Female Characters in a movie that is making a statement about misogyny, arguing that there’s such a lack of good female roles that directors and writers who oppose sexism need to put their efforts into creating those roles.  And that’s a good point, but that suffers from the problem of holding a single movie accountable for all other movies.  From a strictly artistic standpoint, it’s an interesting choice to try to represent absence through absence.  Most of the time, it’s represented by presence.  Most directors would try to drive home the lack of a woman in this character’s life by spending more time on his relationship before snatching it away.  Or they would try to portray his eagerness to get into a final club by showing more than an insubstantial, dialogue-free, dreamy scene that could be taken either for how the club actually is, or how Mark imagines that it is.  It’s fascinating to me that the reason that Sean Parker is able to tempt Mark to follow him is because of absence—-Parker is a hero to Zuckerberg because he created two websites that were litigated out of existence.  What’s not there is more relevant than what is.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:43 AM • (106) Comments

But most everything in the movie is from the mind of Sorkin who is basically saying that nerds are sexless losers who can’t talk to women.

Comment #1: Robert  on  10/11  at  11:04 AM

Well, that’s not the point that everyone’s discussing, is it?  Plus, I wouldn’t say that’s true.  He portrays Zuckerberg as a sexless loser.  The only other character that’s actually capable of coding is Sean Parker, and he’s not sexless so much as a big time pig.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  11:27 AM

Well, that’s a huge relief to hear that perspective. I like Sorkin and Fincher, and was really surprised to hear the theory that these filmmakers couldn’t tell Zuckerberg’s more nuanced story through other than a classic misogynist frame. Sure, they gave us A Few Good Men and Fight Club, respectively, but also West Wing and Alien 3. They aren’t intimidated writing/directing strong women.

Comment #3: humanadverb  on  10/11  at  11:35 AM

Slightly off-topic: the guy on The Today Show video posted on Jezebel is saying that the men could sue the people who distributed the list, instead of just the woman who wrote it. “The moment you send somethng out, you’re responsible for the contend being distributed.” Where was this guy when Paladino was just forwarding emails?

Comment #4: colorlessblue  on  10/11  at  11:35 AM

As a feminist nerd, I’m forced to deal with the fact that a lot of my fellow nerds *are* misogynist douches, which would almost be less irritating if they were also sexless losers. I’m tired of seeking hip geek girls treated poorly by guys who fit this description of Zuckerberg to a T.

Comment #5: humanadverb  on  10/11  at  11:38 AM

Sorkin appeared on Colbert’s show last week and addressed the ‘no strong female characters’ issue. He said, besides the couple of women you mention, ‘women are the prizes.’

So, either he’s purposeful in depicting the role of women as accessory and orgasm provider, or he’s smart enough (or coached enough) to point that out now. I suspect the former, but I’m willing to allow that his writing skills with regards to women characters are limited enough to shoehorn him into a screenplay where women aren’t fully realized.

Comment #6: benvolio  on  10/11  at  11:44 AM

I think they could have told this story in 15 different ways.  They chose the “Citizen Kane” framework.  You can quarrel with that as being too presumptuous, but you could also say that since the internet has as much impact on the 21st century as the newspaper industry did on the 20th century, it’s a story that needs to be updated.  Once you decide to go with the anti-hero story—-and it’s worth noting that there’s a tragic hero in Saverin as well as the anti-hero in Zuckerberg—-then the rest of it falls in to place.  Making your anti-hero a misogynist is par for the course.  Making that one of the central themes of his life is where the movie got really interesting.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  11:46 AM

Have you seen it, though, ben?  If you have, you’ll know that the “women are the prizes” thing is a description, quite literally, of how the characters think.  The women who actually get the most lines on screen aren’t prizes.  You have Mark’s girlfriend, his lawyer, Eduardo’s crazy girlfriend, and the Stanford girl that is initially impressed with the fact that she hooked up with Sean Parker, and then she begins to dislike him immediately. 

The more correct assessment of how women exist onscreen is, “Women who aren’t willing to play the role of prizes are not part of these men’s lives, usually by their own choice.”  Which is different.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  11:50 AM

Or, in the case of Eduardo’s girlfriend, “Women who are willing to be prizes probably have something deeply wrong with them that is a direct result of their bottomless need to be validated by male attention.”

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  11:53 AM

Sorkin’s history of writing interesting women leads me to agree with your reading. He seems to go out of his way to include women in positions of power in his TV series, so I don’t think the absence of women here is a result of the default being talking only about men.
Which is why Robert’s comment makes no sense to me. The nerds in Sorkin’s TV series (Sports Night, West Wing, the less awesome Studio 60) have no problems talking to women or getting laid. Jeremy in Sports Night is the geekiest character and dates a woman who is tied with Felicity Huffman for hottest person on the show.

Comment #10: bethany  on  10/11  at  11:53 AM

This is what Sorkin himself says:

http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2010/10/aaron-sorkin-responds-to-commenter-in.html

Comment #11: gwangung  on  10/11  at  11:58 AM

Sorkin’s history of writing interesting women leads me to agree with your reading. He seems to go out of his way to include women in positions of power in his TV series, so I don’t think the absence of women here is a result of the default being talking only about men.

And then there’s this, too.

I think the combination of textural analysis and what he said is kinda definitive…

Comment #12: gwangung  on  10/11  at  12:00 PM

I think the comparison to Citizen Kane is interesting; I additionally think it might be useful to think outside of the “geek/nerd = no girls” box in this case. There are a lot of men out there - with varying and multifaceted relationships with technology, comic books and online gaming - who are just not good at this stuff. They’re afraid of sex. Or they’re incapable of intimacy. Or they have self esteem issues that lead them to be cripplingly shy. Or they’re afflicted with some form of obsession that completely prevents them from forming meaningful relationships. Yes, to some degree these guys are over-represented in the geek community, but the Venn diagram of “men who struggle to have relationships with women” and “computer geeks” does not look like an O.

I haven’t seen the movie, but I think from having read Amanda and Dana’s reviews, plus a few others, the take-away message from the first two scenes is that this guy is not normal<i>. Because frankly it’s just not normal - even for someone who falls in any of the above categories, geek or not - to spend that amount of time and effort just trying to get back at someone. The majority of people in the world, I’d even risk saying the majority of mysoginist assholes in the world, just wouldn’t be bothered to go to all the trouble. Setting up Facebook just because you got dumped is closer to persistant legal harrassement of your ex-wife and Raul Moat-type sociopathology than it is to a common or garden variety sexist snit.

And frankly, I didn’t need this movie to come out in order to have the sneaking suspicion that nobody who actually <i>has friends could have had the time and drive to do this while still at college.

Comment #13: MarinaS  on  10/11  at  12:13 PM

Whoopsie daisy, formatting fail. Apologies.

Comment #14: MarinaS  on  10/11  at  12:14 PM

I’m glad that my sense that the final party was supposed to be a fantasy is right.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  12:14 PM

Insightful observations as usual, Amanda.  The conspicuous absence of powerful women from Zuckerberg’s circle of experience—because they are both excluded by him and self-selected to get stay the heck away from him—is something I hadn’t noticed, but now that you point it out, it’s quite obvious.

My understanding is that the character of Erica is a fiction.  However, glib as it might be, I think the One That Got Away conceit (or, really, the One That Wisely Ran Away) that bookends and runs through the film is very potent, and I’m glad Sorkin and Fincher took that liberty with the story.  There’s something so devastating about Zuckerberg continually hitting refresh to see if one woman—a woman he slandered in public, and didn’t even appear to like that much!—accepts his Friend request.  Notice also Mark’s half-hearted attempt to make nice with Rashida Jones’ lawyer; he makes a lame stab at asking her to lunch, if I remember correctly.  Fincher presents the moment ambiguously: Is Zuckerberg actually trying to treat the strong women that enter his field of vision better and strike up a friendship, or is this just a pathetic stab at yet another conquest?

Also: Erica’s line—paraphrasing “You’re going to spend your whole life thinking women don’t like you because you’re a nerd, when they really don’t like you because you’re an asshole.”—is pretty much a universal Nice Guy retort, and I was pleased to hear it in the first five minutes of the movie.

My own take on the film:

http://gatewaycinephiles.com/2010/10/05/you-like-this/

Jim Emerson’s posts on the film are really exceptional, if you have the time.  He’s particularly interested in the theme of codes and the film’s visual language:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/the_social_network/

Comment #16: Caustic Ignostic  on  10/11  at  12:15 PM

humanadverb, I’ve never thought of Ripley as a strong female character, only as a strong character.  The few scenes where she did “womanly” things (act maternal to Newt, strip down to her underwear, call the Alien Queen a bitch) were all things that could have been done by a man, though the underwear would probably have been of a different cut.  In the Alien movies it’s always her mind, not her sex/body, that keeps her alive.  It’s also what kills her, but that’s by choice.  There are some obvious analogies to Alien 3 and control of bodies, but the corporation seems more plutocratic than misogynist, though it’s still the same patriarchy.

(And I have nothing to add about The Social Network, as I haven’t seen it.)

Comment #17: 3letterjon  on  10/11  at  12:26 PM

From the interview gwangung linked to: More generally, I was writing about a very angry and deeply misogynistic group of people. These aren’t the cuddly nerds we made movies about in the 80’s.

I am annoyed that cuddly 80s nerds were pretty much off the market when I was dating. (I found, like, one. He’s an exception, and a self-professed feminist, and I still can’t take the level of misogyny on his multiplayer servers, which pisses me off. P.S: Does anyone have a minecraft server where I won’t have to deal with brodouchery?).

I think it’s worth noting what Sorkin notes, which is that this movie is taken from a real-life blog almost verbatim, and that he didn’t pare down the misogyny and lie about what these guys are like in order to make them appealing. That’s very interesting to me.

Comment #18: purpleshoes  on  10/11  at  12:29 PM

p.s. I do want to note that I’m not saying that there weren’t guys my age who were enlightened - just that I’m super pallid and nerdsome and it was hard to find guys who were similarly committed to avoiding fresh air who would watch Buffy with me.

Comment #19: purpleshoes  on  10/11  at  12:32 PM

3letterjon at #17, I think your point is a good example of why she is a strong woman. The original Alien script had intended a male lead, but wrote all the parts as gender neutral, and then it just ended up that way. Cameron saw an opportunity to create an action hero mom (which he does).

In Alien 3, I think Fincher saw an opportunity and took it, completing the Triple Goddess. Sexless virgin in the first one, Mother in the second, and Crone in the third—the Death Goddess comes and destroys their world. So, I’m reading too much into it, maybe. Still, I she’s a strong character who happens to be a woman. Which… is a good thing.

You can’t say any of the filmmakers had to dumb Ripley down because she has a vagina.

Comment #20: humanadverb  on  10/11  at  12:38 PM

As a male nerd, I completely endorse purpleshoe’s experience.

Lots of nerds are good guys. I’m not even sure if a majority of them are misogynists, but they are definitely loud and obnoxious enough in their insecurities that it poisons the culture. There is still a lot there that is fun, and I participate. But fuck those guys. They definitely exist, and they aren’t, generally, exeptions to the rule.

Comment #21: humanadverb  on  10/11  at  12:41 PM

Facebook was born during a night of incredibly misogyny….

More generally, I was writing about a very angry and deeply misogynistic group of people. These aren’t the cuddly nerds we made movies about in the 80’s. They’re very angry that the cheerleader still wants to go out with the quarterback instead of the men (boys) who are running the universe right now. The women they surround themselves with aren’t women who challenge them (and frankly, no woman who could challenge them would be interested in being anywhere near them.)

Sorkin on his film, pretty much saying Amanda got it right.  Sorkin’s not a misogynist; he made a movie about misogynists—and not to praise their misogyny.

Comment #22: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/11  at  12:46 PM

I might wait for netflix on this one. The combination of meta-blog commentary and “based on a true story” put this firmly in the category of films I’m reluctant to pay >$20 to see.

Comment #23: CBrachyrhynchos  on  10/11  at  01:15 PM

I doubt you’ll ever find large online games without the brodouchery.  The best you can hope for is to find small, welcoming communities.  I used to play on a MUD with maybe 200 players.  The admins would simply ban anyone who was an asshat.  Worked out well for a small gaming community.  I’m playing World of Warcraft now, and the misogyny and homophobia can get pretty bad in the game at large, but I’ve found a series of guilds that just don’t tolerate it, and that works out well for me.  One way to find those communities is to remember that we have code language too - look for language that shows an awareness of gender issues.  And if that’s not working, be more explicit yourself.  When I was looking for a new raiding guild, I put something like “I won’t tolerate racism, sexism, or homophobia.  If your guild chat includes comments like, ‘That’s so gay,’ or your members use racist or sexist slurs on your vent channel, I’m probably not the potential recruit you’re looking for.”  It worked, as far as I could tell.  I got a few responses from guilds that like to spam their recruiting info to everyone with a pulse, but most of the replies were from guilds that had explicitly adopted policies like what I was looking for.  Works out best for everybody that way.  Had I joined a group of douchebags, it wouldn’t have been good for me, but it also wouldn’t have been enjoyable for the douchebags.  All but the most sociopathic don’t want to deal with drama.  They want to be douchebags without being called out on it, and they’ll gravitate towards others of the same mindset.

Comment #24: libdevil  on  10/11  at  01:27 PM

Sometimes throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a good idea.  I won’t name any names, but someone crapped in the tub.

Comment #25: 3letterjon  on  10/11  at  01:41 PM

libdevil, my partner used to run one such guild that would just plain ban people who used homophobic language after one warning, so I know they’re out there. Right now he’s on the Fark server, though, which is way more dudely. I’m from the Lady Internet, also known as fandom, where dudes are scarce and feminism is standard, so it’s always jarring to run into those Other Nerds and get a faceful of their community standards.

The troll above me is unaware that those bimbos are actually part of a secret Bimbo Guild that is lacing his orange juice with sterilants for the protection of the human race. The ones that aren’t cyborgs bent on destroying him, at least.

Comment #26: purpleshoes  on  10/11  at  01:47 PM

It’s an amusing idea that the gender supposedly incapable of acting like decent human beings should be the ones to stay instead of go ...

Comment #27: kristin  on  10/11  at  01:56 PM

Stik Rewl,

That’s why you’re a talented, successful filmmaker and Aaron Sorkin is just a misogynist douchebag spewing bile on the internet.  Oh, wait…

The troll above me is unaware that those bimbos are actually part of a secret Bimbo Guild that is lacing his orange juice with sterilants for the protection of the human race. The ones that aren’t cyborgs bent on destroying him, at least.

Just give away the whole store, why don’t you, purple?  wink

Comment #28: Sour Kraut  on  10/11  at  02:11 PM

Though now that the secret’s out, maybe we can get J.J. Abrams to make “Brozilla Vs. MechaVagina.”

Comment #29: Sour Kraut  on  10/11  at  02:17 PM

I think the most that it’s worth pointing out what happened in real life is to interrogate why Sorkin and Fincher decided to diverge.  Why show Facemash as being only about women, when in real life, men were included?  The obvious answer is: Because they were interested in portraying this character as motivated by bitterness turned into misogyny.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  02:24 PM

Have you seen it, though, ben?  If you have, you’ll know that the “women are the prizes” thing is a description, quite literally, of how the characters think. [snip] The more correct assessment of how women exist onscreen is, “Women who aren’t willing to play the role of prizes are not part of these men’s lives, usually by their own choice.” Which is different. I haven’t yet, so I take your word for it. But I don’t think Sorkin’s comment, abbreviated for the purposes of a four-minute discussion with an in-character cable host is all that different from your conclusion. They were tracking the same territory (that Women, in the abstract, are nothing more than prizes for these dudes, and as such, Real, Actual women don’t really exist/don’t want to exist in their dude-iverse.), and that’s how he summed it up.

So: how’s the soundtrack?

Comment #31: benvolio  on  10/11  at  02:27 PM

Please do not respond to the troll.  He will be deleted soon enough, and it screws up the thread when he’s responded to.  He almost surely didn’t see the movie, and I don’t think he interacts with women in the real world.  He appears to have no time for anything but trying to find ways to post on Pandagon. Just ignore him.  I’ll delete him.  He means nothing he says; his only motivation in life appears to be annoying people that are better than him.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  02:29 PM

Chet, aggressively disrespecting the wishes of a woman who said she doesn’t want contact with you?  Not “growing up”.  But that you think so is fascinating.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  02:31 PM

Stick Rule’s got a new IP address.

What I don’t get is why he hates men so much?  That was a particularly nasty attack on the intelligence and decency of the male gender.

Why so hateful, trolly-troll?

Comment #34: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/11  at  02:34 PM

Please don’t give him attention.  He’s a broken person who has an unnatural craving for it, and when you feed him, you feed that.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  02:40 PM

I’m really torn about seeing this film.

On one hand, the real life Zuckerberg wasn’t the guy portrayed in the movie.  Facemash was about men and women.  Erica is fabricated - Zuckerberg has had a steady girlfriend (now fiancee?) since before Facebook took off.  And acquaintances from his days at Harvard say he wasn’t particularly interested in the Final Clubs.

But also, as Amanda points out, the film tells a compelling story about a tragic character whose douchery makes him miserable even as he achieves his ambitions.  There’s simply not enough exposure of douchery in Hollywood.

It just bugs me that the writers would take so many liberties with the facts.  Was it to have a “better” story?  To make a political/sociological point?  To allow them to write more hot co-ed bimbos into the film?  Some combination of the above?  There’s just something a bit icky about it.

Comment #36: Dave Fried  on  10/11  at  02:44 PM

As pointed out on the Daily Beast, the early party scene was a figment of Zuckerberg’s imagination - a world of “exclusivity” where the apparently unavailable become easily available to those who have means.

In his mind women desire worlds of exclusvity (such as clubs) where they can easily separate the rabble, perverts etc. from the “real men”.

The original web (sites such as this) are anonymous - a threatening “club” where “anyone” can attend.

Facebook is non-anonymous and “exlusive”.  It is no accident that it has been most popular with women.

Of course, noone will actually pay for Zuckerberg’s exclusivity, as the underlying code could be more or less replicated by another site.  Which is why Facebook has inevitably become an open book to advertisors and the world.  Search the site open book for “I hate my boss” if you want an example.

Comment #37: jsmithsen  on  10/11  at  03:03 PM

I was just listening to Aaron Sorkin be interviewed on British radio, by Mark Kermode & Simon er, Something, who are famous for being interested in horror films, action flicks and the like, and scornful to the point of disgust of anything chic-flicky. My point being that they were never going to ask him anything about the portrayal of women in the movie because they probably haven’t noticed that there were any yet.

He managed to work in the “these are not the cuddly ‘80s geeks, they’re angry that women still want to date the jocks” into the answer to the first question, and repeatedly referred to Zuckerberg’s lack of social skills.

I’m beginning to think that he actually really cares about the mysoginy aspect of things here - it’s not some emergent property of the “real” story, he’s worked it in with intent. Which is kind of cool.

Comment #38: MarinaS  on  10/11  at  03:38 PM

And I think it captures an essential Facebook experience - friending your ex’s. (Chet)

Chet, aggressively disrespecting the wishes of a woman who said she doesn’t want contact with you?  Not “growing up”.  But that you think so is fascinating.

Not to mention that women being bullied and stalked on facebook and other social networks, by abusive ex-boyfriends/husbands is a common occurrence.

Comment #39: colorlessblue  on  10/11  at  03:41 PM

colorlessblue, including the fact that people don’t always realize that real-name-using services can identify you to third-party sites - and once your real name is tied to your present location, any aliases you use, etc, it’s indexed in the bowels of the internet forever. This has recently happened with the livejournal/facebook tie-in and with Google Buzz.

Comment #40: purpleshoes  on  10/11  at  03:49 PM

What troubles me about the movie though is it is not clear to me that Zuckerberg is the misogynist depicted by Sorkin.  In fact he is in a relationship of long standing with a woman who is a third year medical student—a relationship that goes back to some of the time depicted in the film.  Facebook’s Chief Operating Officer is a woman and has described her working relationship with Zuckerberg as close and collaborative.  There is a New Yorker profile of him that leads me to believe that Sorkin has in many respects created a very fictionalized Zuckerberg to act out this ugliness.

To what end, other than making what is a pretty entertaining anti-hero, I’m not sure. 

Oops, I see Dave Fried just made many of these same points. 

I think Sorkin has crated a kind of fantasyland Harvard that I don’t think beears much resemblance to the real thing.  I’m not sure what to do with that.

Comment #41: Sir Charles  on  10/11  at  03:53 PM

The story rang false to me.  As it turns out, Mark Z. in real life is probably not nearly as awful as he’s portrayed in the movie.  It did a disservice to both geek males and females by using a story that was *not* as bad as that to make a point about misogyny.  It had to airbrush geek women out of a story that in real life actually had female participants…in order to make a point about misogyny.  Does anyone not see the irony in that?

The media is essentially fascinated with the poorly adjusted nerd, when in real life, most male nerds are not actually that poorly adjusted.  That’s not to say that all is well in the world of computer science—-it is most certainly not—-but neither are the bulk of male nerds emotionally defective stereotypes, and successful entrepreneurs almost by definition *can’t* be like that.

And remember, they had to take the females out of the story to make this point.

Comment #42: Mandos  on  10/11  at  03:59 PM

purpleshoes, I’m aware of the several privacy fails that happened and keep happening (it’s almost like these sites/companies so completely don’t care that they just never look at the past and do anything better, like, not fucking it up completely in the same way they did before…)
I just thought I’d point out that apparently Chet thinks friending your ex is something a nice person would do. Of course I’m not talking about a break-up that happened in a peaceful way - I have friends I used to date or hook up with - but for example, while I’ve never been cyberstalked and this ex’s problem was more on the purposeful neglicence side, I felt that him, friending me on the early years of Orkut was an offense against the word friend itself. You don’t get to treat people like that and then approach them all OH HAI as if nothing happens. If you’re already friends with your ex you don’t need to go search them online in that way, and if you’re not, it’s never a good move.

Comment #43: colorlessblue  on  10/11  at  04:02 PM

43: Charli Capenter over at Lawyers, guns & money makes that same point. In order to make this a parable about misogyny they edited actual women involved with building Facebook out of existence.

In the case of current events, where the film version is likely to become more “real” in most peoples’ minds than the actual one, I don’t think that “they’re trying to make a story about theme X” is a good excuse for serious inaccuracies.

I’ll state up front that I don’t know how accurate or not the film is. I’m just uncomfortable with the folks who expressed a general indifference to the whole question of accuracy because “they decided to make a movie about misogyny”. That sounds like endorsing truthiness.

Comment #44: Nobody  on  10/11  at  04:15 PM

Also, if you’re interested (and most people should be) in encouraging women in technological spaces, then reinforcing a view of computer science that’s even worse than the (not so great) reality doesn’t exactly do much to address that goal.  Is the movie actually constructed to change the world of computer nerdery, or does it just reinforce a stereotype that does no one good?  After all, for all his misogyny, movie-Zuckerberg got rich.

Comment #45: Mandos  on  10/11  at  04:20 PM

Recently got back in touch and FB friended a high school classmate who attended Harvard is involved in the movie business.  She made a FB posting saying that the movie really took her back to her Harvard despite graduating a few years before FB came out. 

Haven’t seen the movie….but the remark about Final Clubs is interesting considering it is said he was eager to join one.  If that’s the case, that’s at odds with my friends’ experiences at Harvard as well as my own observations whenever I was on campus. 

Nearly every nerd/intellectual/computer geek I knew at Harvard disdained the Final Clubs so much that anyone who even mentioned having an ambition to join them would instantly lose their nerd/geek/intellectual cred.  Final Clubs are considered havens for the intellectually dull legacy types and rich jocks….not surprising as they are Harvard’s closest equivalent of fraternities…albeit more exclusive and elitist.

Comment #46: exholt  on  10/11  at  04:23 PM

Some of Zuckerberg’s best friends are women!

Comment #47: kristin  on  10/11  at  04:31 PM

Haven’t seen the movie yet, but I can’t help but be flabbergasted by the disgusting enormity of Zuckerberg’s wealth… Forbes estimates his net worth at roughly of $6.9 Billion. As far as I know, even Bill Gates didn’t have that degree of financial success at 26, even when adjusting for inflation.  I imagine Zuckerberg’s probably the wealthiest 26 year old in history. Just recently, Facebook surpassed both Google and Yahoo in terms of the total amount of time spent on a single site by all Internet users on earth - 10% of all Internet usage hours are spent on Facebook.

That Zuckerberg epitomizes the douchey Nice Guy™ is hardly shocking news. Not that having that sort of wealth and clout is an excuse, but I imagine it’s probably hard to find many billionaires under the age of 30 who aren’t self-important pricks. Hell, there aren’t many billionaires over the age of thirty who aren’t pricks…

Comment #48: DTGslu2K  on  10/11  at  04:34 PM

Some of Zuckerberg’s best friends are women!

Doesn’t matter who is friends are…but connecting his success to what misogyny he may have is exactly what the movie did.  It made success contingent on his misogyny.  Doesn’t anyone see the problem with that?

Comment #49: Mandos  on  10/11  at  04:37 PM

@Mandos, which women? The lawsuits around which the movie is actually structured were indeed all among men, and I think they may have actually added women via the composite characters of the female lawyers. Who were the women who were edited out, and what was their role in the creation of The Facebook (as it was then)?

Comment #50: MarinaS  on  10/11  at  04:44 PM

Hey Amanda—as an artist whose also committed to supporting social movements and who constantly frets about how my work will be received by the movements I support, I really appreciate your caution abt assuming a lowest-common-denominator reading.

I really like your analysis abt the presence of absence also.

I did, though, find the “crazy” girlfriend character troubling—I felt like she was played almost entirely for comedy, drawing upon a lot of bullshit abt feminized aggression and jealousy and possesiveness—it felt sexist as well as ableist, without much critical space inside the narrative for the audience to recover her as a complex individual. I guess what I mean is, it didn’t feel like Mark and Eduardo were doing this to her, it felt, in her case, like the film was.

I’d be interested in hearing your reaction to Rashida Jones’s character—she did seem like the one competent female character to engage Mark at greater length, and she seemed to exhibit some empathy for him, as well as, I thought, a sort of dismissive bemusement abt how mundane his whole situation really was.

Comment #51: Tim Jones-Yelvington  on  10/11  at  05:02 PM

“who is basically saying that nerds are sexless losers who can’t talk to women”

What’s controversial about that?

Comment #52: B405  on  10/11  at  05:03 PM

Re: Final Clubs at Harvard
Exholt@47 is spot-on.  I was there from ‘95-‘97, and nobody I knew would have been caught dead near one.  There were actually frequent protests against them and the privilege they represented, stories about the rampant sexism (i.e. how most of them required women to enter through the rear for parties rather than using the front door), etc.  They were pretty much reviled unless you were in the sort of social set which could afford the hefty dues required to join.  And since Harvard is one of the more sociologically diverse college campuses, most students wouldn’t have been able to.

On the other hand, Harvard was a pretty miserable place for students back then, and if you were looking for a “traditional college social scene” (keg parties, random hookups, etc.) then maybe you’d try to weasel your way in out of pure desperation?  I don’t know.  It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing a bunch of Applied Sciences nerds would have been interested in.  I mean, *I* was, but it was a heck of a lot easier (and more fun) to transfer to Big State U for beer and chicks than to try to sell my soul to some crypto-frat.

Comment #53: Dave Fried  on  10/11  at  05:14 PM

It just bugs me that the writers would take so many liberties with the facts.

Fear of this is why most biopics suck.  Fiction =/ real life.  Human lives do not have themes or are a point of social commentary.  We are too deep and ever-changing.  When filmmakers try to draw a theme out of someone’s life while sticking to the facts, they get a gooey mess.  But if they tell a traditional narrative, they can arrive at deeper truths.

It’s not controversial when it’s “Citizen Kane”.  The only reason it is now, it appears to me, is some people are touchy about Harvard and/or Facebook.  Or they’re too damn literal.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  05:33 PM

I mean, literally with biopics you have a choice: Are you “fair” to the subjects, ruthlessly factual, and therefore telling a story that has no greater meaning than, “This person lived out a life that, like real lives, is up and down and chaotic but has no larger meaning,” or do you tell a story that is about something and explores a theme?  To do the latter, you often—-I’d say with the record on biopics sucking, always—-have to follow the “Citizen Kane” model and use your person as a starting point for what is fundamentally a fictional narrative.

“Mark Zuckerberg” =/ Mark Zuckerberg.  If you can get that through your head while watching the movie, instead of worrying about the real world facts, I think it’s a lot more interesting and relevant of a film.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  05:38 PM

Also, if you’re interested (and most people should be) in encouraging women in technological spaces,

Probably the best way to do this, if this is your main goal, is not to start by being a writer or director working your way through Hollywood so that one day you get the budget to write a you-go-girl film about how great it is for female computer programmers.  Probably that’s an inefficient way to go about it.  You should, if this is your goal, work on that goal.  Filmmakers are often going to find storytelling is their main motivation.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  05:40 PM

I don’t much care about Zuckerberg one way or the other (he has his billions to console him anyway).

But when a film claims to portray real (and important) current events and someone claims that it’s inaccurate in major ways, then

“No it’s not inaccurate. The way events are portrayed in the film is substantially how it went down, and the changes are mostly cosmetic.” Is a fine answer.

“Who cares if it’s accurate or not? They wanted to make a story about X.” is a problematic answer.

Citizen Kane didn’t literally claim to be about Hearst, although the parallel was obvious. The Social Network does claim to be about the actual founding of Facebook. I think the distinction is significant.

Comment #57: Nobody  on  10/11  at  05:44 PM

Nobody, can you point me to where the filmmakers claim that they told the story exactly how it happened, and didn’t use poetic license to take liberties?  I’m curious, because this entire debate is interesting to me.  If, in fact, they are representing this as a no-fictional-elements, no-liberties, no-poetry biopic, then that changes my opinion greatly.  Most of what I’ve been seeing is them explaining why the made choices to diverge from reality when they did.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  05:47 PM

According to this site

http://www.businessinsider.com/aaron-sorkin-the-facebook-movie-is-absolute-non-fiction-2010-10

Sorkin called the movie “absolute non-fiction”.

Comment #59: Nobody  on  10/11  at  05:56 PM

I know I’m coming off like I have a stick up my ass about this, but I just think the blurring fact and fiction in this way (and not being forthright about it) is never an innocent thing to do, even if it’s done in an ostensibly good cause like exposing sexist douchebags.

Comment #60: Nobody  on  10/11  at  05:58 PM

So, how do you feel about “Citizen Kane”, then?  For some, it’s the greatest film of all time.  But it violates this extremely important rule to not blur fact and fiction, so by your measure, it really can’t be.  It’s just a bad movie that misleads people.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:01 PM

“I know I’m coming off like I have a stick up my ass about this, but I just think the blurring fact and fiction in this way (and not being forthright about it) is never an innocent thing to do, even if it’s done in an ostensibly good cause like exposing sexist douchebags. “

The above should be qualified with “assuming that there really are serious inaccuracies”.

Comment #62: Nobody  on  10/11  at  06:02 PM

I’m also not angry at “Deadwood”, “The Tudors”, “Elizabeth”, “Young Guns”, or “Silence of the Lambs” for taking real people’s lives, fictionalizing them, and using them to tell a bigger story.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:04 PM

It’s not controversial when it’s “Citizen Kane”.

Citizen Kane was extremely controversial when it came out, Zuckerberg just doesn’t have a media empire at his disposal to trash/kill The Social Network.  And Mankiewicz and Welles at least had the decency to change the name of their protagonist.

Comment #64: keshmeshi  on  10/11  at  06:05 PM

You should, if this is your goal, work on that goal.

Nice tautology there.  Only slightly dripping in privilege by implying that the way to encourage more women in technological spaces is to simply work harder at it.

Comment #65: boring old dude  on  10/11  at  06:08 PM

It’s not controversial when it’s “Citizen Kane”.  The only reason it is now, it appears to me, is some people are touchy about Harvard and/or Facebook.  Or they’re too damn literal.
Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte on 10/11 at 04:33 PM

Wasn’t Citizen Kane controversial in it’s time?  I’m pretty sure that William Randolph Hearst wasn’t that happy with it.  I haven’t seen The Social Network yet, so I skipped most of the comments about it.  The story of the Duke woman was really overblown because she only intended three of her friends to see her list.  The guys on her list were very popular from what I get out of the stories, “socially prominent,” one said.  Some of them are on the Lacrosse team.  Private communications between friends shouldn’t be made public.

Comment #66: G Porgey  on  10/11  at  06:09 PM

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte

I’m a little angry at The Tudors.

Comment #67: G Porgey  on  10/11  at  06:11 PM

I actually am angry about “The Tudors”. But that’s just because the story it tells is so rubbish.

Comment #68: MarinaS  on  10/11  at  06:11 PM

“So, how do you feel about “Citizen Kane”, then?  For some, it’s the greatest film of all time.  But it violates this extremely important rule to not blur fact and fiction, so by your measure, it really can’t be.  It’s just a bad movie that misleads people. “

Not at all. “Citizen Kane” is about the life and times of Charles Foster Kane, a fictional character. If people see a clear parallel with the non-fictional William Randolf Hearst, that’s fine. Audiences and critics draw all sorts of parallels between fiction and real events.

It’s the claim to be depicting real events substantively as they occurred that I think imposes some responsibilities on a writer/filmmaker.

Comment #69: Nobody  on  10/11  at  06:15 PM

Put another way, I wouldn’t remotely care about any of this if The Social Network were about “Henry Zuckerman” and the founding of “Friendbook”.

Comment #70: Nobody  on  10/11  at  06:22 PM

Hearst saw enough parallels with his own life in “Citizen Kane” that he wouldn’t let any of his papers write about it.  There was quite a bit of controversy before the release of the film, and Welles cut several minutes to satisfy Hearst’s and the studio’s lawyers.

Comment #71: G Porgey  on  10/11  at  06:23 PM

Chet, your powers of projection are beyond mere mortals.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:38 PM

Chet, if you are such an asshole that you create a whole site just to get revenge on a woman who dumped you, and just your behaving after-dumping is so assholish that it’s safe to assume she had good reason for dumping you, you can bet she doesn’t want you in her life, and a single friend request is an aggressive disrespect, and creepy.

Comment #73: colorlessblue  on  10/11  at  06:38 PM

Only slightly dripping in privilege by implying that the way to encourage more women in technological spaces is to simply work harder at it.

I didn’t say “work harder”.  I said work on that goal.  Start organizations to educate women about computer science.  Do research that helps streamline women into computer science.  Become a teacher that encourages women in computer science.

I’m just saying the job of “screenwriter” is quite literally, and for good reason, a different job than “activist for gender diversity in the sciences”.  Thus, conflating them is a problem.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:40 PM

“Mark Zuckerberg” =/ Mark Zuckerberg.  If you can get that through your head while watching the movie, instead of worrying about the real world facts, I think it’s a lot more interesting and relevant of a film.

The problem with that approach is that this movie is being presented as the story of the creation of Facebook.  “Lawrence of Arabia” =/ Lawrence of Arabia also, but nevertheless it was presented as being close enough to presenting the actual historical events.  Not that the creation of Facebook is in any way as historically significant as the Arab Revolt…

I think the “real world facts” are important and worthy of worrying about.  I know you (Amanda) would like to see depictions of Mark Zuckerberg types as a misogynist assholes, and the stronger the better; but that’s because you have an agenda that colors your thinking.  It’s confirmation bias.

Comment #75: liberalrob  on  10/11  at  06:40 PM

Wasn’t Citizen Kane controversial in it’s time?

Absolutely.  History has given us the hindsight to see that those people who were upset about it were being douchey.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:41 PM

That, or your eagerness to see that “type”—-again, I don’t think that there was a single type represented—-makes you judge the movie unfairly, liberal, due to your agenda of defensiveness about the fact that misogyny does, in fact, exist.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  06:43 PM

Why is it that a misogynistic characters make up so many main characters in movies?  The average person isn’t going to come away thinking this guy is abnormal or should be abnormal.

Comment #78: Crissa  on  10/11  at  06:52 PM

I also think that the move of friending your ex is even more assholish because it takes advantage of the pressure on women to be polite and peacemakers, because if you refuse a request, even from the ex who treated you so badly you had to start therapy to rebuild you ego, you’re called a bitch who needs to get over it, afterall it’s only facebook, it doesn’t mean real friends, can’t you even be nice? Add him and then put him behind some privacy setting if you’re so sensitive, come on, what does it cost you…

Comment #79: colorlessblue  on  10/11  at  06:53 PM

Well, Citizen Kane is technically a film à clef and not a straight biopic, although its satire wasn’t appreciated by Hearst and everyone saw through it. It shines by being masterfully constructed. Most biopics are both shitty biographies and shitty stories. And my bad taste regarding the genre was developed retrospectively looking back on my school experiences of lazy teachers promulgating biased historical myths by using them uncritically to teach, although what gets passed for historical and scientific documentary work these days is also pretty risible.

I think in many cases the message is better served by just doing fiction. Hairspray IMO works better as a critique of musical segregation than Cadillac Records, which simultaneously takes dramatic liberties and fails to deliver on them. And when the inaccuracies appear to be linked to questionable political causes, we can certainly call them out as such. The conflict in Amadeus was invented posthumously by German and Austrian nationalists. Night and Day is a fanciful cover for Porter’s homosexuality. The Overton Window is obviously bullshit claiming factual description.

Comment #80: CBrachyrhynchos  on  10/11  at  07:03 PM

I know you (Amanda) would like to see depictions of Mark Zuckerberg types as a misogynist assholes, and the stronger the better; but that’s because you have an agenda that colors your thinking.  It’s confirmation bias.

Well, and then there’s Sorkin himself who says Facebook was created in a night of misogyny, and that the characters in his movie are assholes who can’t deal with strong women. 

Is it confirmation bias when the director agrees with you?

Comment #81: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/11  at  07:16 PM

The average person isn’t going to come away thinking this guy is abnormal or should be abnormal.

Yeah, I addressed that issue in the post.  Maybe it should be called the “Movies Should Only Be Made For Stupid People” argument.  I’ve made it myself, which I regret.  I don’t enjoy movies that hand-hold me, even though I think they might be the only kind idiots could get.

Comment #82: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  07:26 PM

#51: I’m given to understand (from LGM) that a woman named Tricia Black was involved from the beginning, and was VP of Sales until she left the company.  Also, he wasn’t single and sexless throughout all of this—-Priscilla Chan was his girlfriend from early on, and apparently she’s fairly well involved in the business from, again, very early on.

This is not to say that it’s happy happy joy equality in the world of computer nerd startupdom.  Far from it.

Comment #83: Mandos  on  10/11  at  07:27 PM

Oooooh, “Amadeus” is a really great example.  Great film, totally bullshit if you want to be a literalist about it, but spoke to powerful, larger truths.

Comment #84: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/11  at  07:29 PM

Here’s a post from the Geek Feminism blog that discusses some of the problems with it: here and, as background, here.

Comment #85: Mandos  on  10/11  at  07:41 PM

Has anyone been watching Boardwalk Empire? In a similar way that portrays sexism as it was then and its like that feeling of uncomfortable on Mad Men to the power of a 100. It has a bit with a politician making fun of a female black servant because she isn’t up on current affairs and he actually says"har har har, that’s your women’s vote” and an on stage comedian telling my girl is so dumb jokes. I think its the only time I’ve shouted when watching something alone. I shouted “shut up you fucking dickhead” and “not right on” just to be clear.

Comment #86: pharmakos  on  10/11  at  08:04 PM

Pharma: Hopefully your voice will travel through the space-time continuum, thereby shaming the people on whom these characters were based and causing them to rectify their behavior, which will then create a space-time paradox that will collapse the known universe. HAPPY?!?

Comment #87: norbizness  on  10/11  at  08:07 PM

Thanks for your input, I hope it made you feel as smug as it made you appear

Comment #88: pharmakos  on  10/11  at  08:10 PM

@87: Oooooh, “Amadeus” is a really great example.  Great film, totally bullshit if you want to be a literalist about it, but spoke to powerful, larger truths.

Sure, but the fact that we’re dealing with a “history” that is about as truthful and serves the same purpose as Birth of a Nation or The Protocols should be a part of the discussion around that film.

Comment #89: CBrachyrhynchos  on  10/11  at  08:13 PM

@norbizness:

I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle…

Comment #90: Sour Kraut  on  10/11  at  08:34 PM

“On the other hand, Harvard was a pretty miserable place for students back then, and if you were looking for a “traditional college social scene” (keg parties, random hookups, etc.) then maybe you’d try to weasel your way in out of pure desperation?  I don’t know.  It doesn’t seem like the kind of thing a bunch of Applied Sciences nerds would have been interested in.  I mean, *I* was, but it was a heck of a lot easier (and more fun) to transfer to Big State U for beer and chicks than to try to sell my soul to some crypto-frat. “

Most of my Harvard attending friends had no problems enjoying their time there.  Granted, the party scene on campus was pathetic, but they had other campuses in the Boston area.  MIT, BU, and Wellesley were three campuses where they frequented the most to get their college partying fix.  In that context, the Final Club scene seemed stodgy and dead in comparison. 

What’s more amusing is that your description of Harvard is far more applicable to my midwest-based SLAC….minus the great Boston/Cambridge location and the lack of random hookups.

Comment #91: exholt  on  10/11  at  08:52 PM

serves the same purpose as Birth of a Nation or The Protocols

The original play was subtitled “A fantasia on themes from Mozarts’ life.”

Comment #92: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/11  at  09:10 PM

The average person isn’t going to come away thinking this guy is abnormal or should be abnormal.
Yeah, I addressed that issue in the post.  Maybe it should be called the “Movies Should Only Be Made For Stupid People” argument.  I’ve made it myself, which I regret.  I don’t enjoy movies that hand-hold me, even though I think they might be the only kind idiots could get.

I know.  But I don’t think my sentence can be torn from its context:  That they only seem to make movies about misogynists.

I don’t think it’s probably a bad movie.  But they took a real life and turned it into misogyny and then celebrated that.  Why add this to the story and pretend it really is that way?  It’s like they took all the ads about gamers and geeks being misogynists and made it real.

Comment #93: Crissa  on  10/11  at  09:13 PM

<blockqute>I don’t think it’s probably a bad movie.  But they took a real life and turned it into misogyny and then celebrated that.  Why add this to the story and pretend it really is that way?  It’s like they took all the ads about gamers and geeks being misogynists and made it real. </blockquote>

Yep.  ‘Zackly.  They *inserted* misogyny where none was required to make a point that is progressive on the surface, but really not underneath.

Comment #94: Mandos  on  10/11  at  09:48 PM

Grr, stupid typos in tags.

Comment #95: Mandos  on  10/11  at  09:49 PM

Apparently, Zuckerberg is a Nice Guy (TM). That’s what seems to transpire from what I read here and there by people who knew him during the Harvard times.

Comment #96: Bernard SG  on  10/11  at  11:39 PM

Is it confirmation bias when the director agrees with you?

It’s confirmation bias when, before having said director’s “agreement” pointed out to you, you make the leap from “this is a movie about the creation of Facebook” to “this is a movie about what a misogynist Mark Zuckerberg is.”  And Sorkin didn’t say that his movie was about Mark Zuckerberg’s misogyny.  That is only one part of the movie; but to Amanda, it’s immediately the main thing we’re to take away from it.  It would be like a Gay Rights activist watching a movie about Alexander the Great and saying that the main point of the movie is Alexander’s homosexuality and what a great thing it was to see such a strong homosexual leader portrayed positively on screen.  It’s taking the aspect of the movie that best fits your agenda and promoting that as the most important thing in it.  Which I guess is not surprising or unprecedented, but I think it’s worth pointing out.

...you judge the movie unfairly, liberal, due to your agenda of defensiveness about the fact that misogyny does, in fact, exist.

The only things I have to judge the movie on is what has been talked about in this thread.  I have not seen it nor do I plan to.  I merely note that your review of the movie seems to have been rather conveniently in agreement with your thesis that misogyny is everywhere, QED by this movie.  As far as my “agenda of defensiveness,” that’s your pot calling my kettle black.  Of course we all have our agendas; but I’m not reviewing a movie and citing it as support for my apparent position that since certain men are demonstrably misogynist assholes, the burden of proof lies with all men to somehow prove that they aren’t before you will consider them worthwhile people.  Isn’t that what all this boils down to in the end?

Comment #97: liberalrob  on  10/11  at  11:50 PM

Most of my Harvard attending friends had no problems enjoying their time there. 

In my experience, Harvard students simply didn’t know any better about what they were missing out on, which is why they were satisfied with the poor social quality-of-life. The finals clubs were desired not because they held the promise of a better party scene but because in a heavily class-stratified school, the finals clubs promised access to “the elite of the elite.” (whereas in fact it was mostly some relatively nice jocks or otherwise friendly people who wanted a more frat-like experience) I didn’t personally know any hardcore geeks at Harvard that wanted to be a member of them, but I can imagine some might have a “I hate them but secretly kind of wish I were a member of them” attitude. Even though I rail against excessive fictionalization in the more recent thread, I can see this being added as a worthwhile plot device.

Comment #98: Tyro  on  10/12  at  12:26 AM

“... the party scene on campus was pathetic, but they had other campuses in the Boston area.  MIT, BU, and Wellesley were three campuses where they frequented the most to get their college partying fix.” MIT! As an alumni, I’m amazed. MIT was never considered much of a party school. Back in the early 1970s two MIT women described their sexual experiences with perhaps two dozen MIT men, whom they named, in an article in one of the school newspapers. The big reaction was that no one could believe anyone had sex at MIT.

Comment #99: Kaleberg  on  10/12  at  01:44 AM

In my experience, Harvard students simply didn’t know any better about what they were missing out on, which is why they were satisfied with the poor social quality-of-life. The finals clubs were desired not because they held the promise of a better party scene but because in a heavily class-stratified school, the finals clubs promised access to “the elite of the elite.” (whereas in fact it was mostly some relatively nice jocks or otherwise friendly people who wanted a more frat-like experience)

Regarding the first, they were either unusually socially inhibited, extremely unadventurous/lazy, and/or exceedingly elitist in who they chose to party/hang out with.  IME, most Harvard undergrads made it a point to avail themselves of what the Boston/Cambridge area had to offer….including attending campus parties on more socially active campuses as often as possible.  This included high school classmates who were mostly STEM majors or STEM-humanities/social science double majors.

MIT! As an alumni, I’m amazed. MIT was never considered much of a party school. Back in the early 1970s two MIT women described their sexual experiences with perhaps two dozen MIT men, whom they named, in an article in one of the school newspapers. The big reaction was that no one could believe anyone had sex at MIT.

One thing I kept hearing from high school classmates who attended Boston area schools was that MIT students, especially the frats threw some of the best campus parties in the area.  Got to experience this firsthand as a fresh college graduate working in the area when I was invited to a few thanks to those classmates and had a blast.  Work hard, play hard is a really apt description to describe MIT students.

Comment #100: exholt  on  10/12  at  02:16 AM

I suspect Sheryl Sandberg might disagree with the premise that Mark Zuckerberg only sees women as prizes rather than people. (Interesting trivia: she also served as chief of staff to then-Treasury Secretary, future Harvard ex-President, and renowned Winklevoss humiliator Larry Summers.)

Comment #101: halfspin  on  10/12  at  06:05 AM

The original play was subtitled “A fantasia on themes from Mozarts’ life.”

Actually, the original play was Pushkin’s Mozart and Salieri from 1831. The problem is that the central theme of both Mozart and Salieri and Amadeus doesn’t come from Mozart’s life. While the two competed, there’s ample evidence of mutual admiration and friendship between them. The entire idea of a spiteful and jealous Italian sabotaging a German genius was a nationalistic narrative created later.

Comment #102: CBrachyrhynchos  on  10/12  at  10:49 AM

Tyro & Exholt:

A little of column A, a little of B.  Student organizations threw okay parties, but it was the same people over and over again.  DAS and pre-med students *didn’t* have much time (typically) for socializing outside of schoolwork, though pure and social sciences were completely different.  But even the admins understood things were a little messed up; they commissioned a study a year or two after I left to find out why students were so miserable.

And honestly, I was joking before - “beer and chicks”/party scene was not why I left.  I had a steady girlfriend.  I could go hang out with my buddies at Northeastern any time I wanted.  Bars in Boston were basically off-limits to the under-21s, but I would have turned soon enough.  Big State U just offered a lot more in my major and the extracurrics I was interested in - plus a lot less meaningless workload so I could actually spend time doing what I wanted.  That the social scene was so much better than Harvard was just icing on the cake.

Comment #103: Dave Fried  on  10/12  at  02:31 PM

I should also add something about geeks at Harvard: in the mid-to-late ‘90s, I found there were a lot of awesome women geeks, and at least two of them helped me pass classes I was woefully unprepared for, using their amazing, enormous brains.  One of the bigger disappointments about Big State U was that, although it had a significantly better, significantly larger computer science department, there were a much lower percentage of women in the program.

So I’d say that for the budding female computer geek, going to a school like Harvard might actually be a better choice, regardless of what movies like “The Social Network” portray.

Comment #104: Dave Fried  on  10/12  at  02:40 PM

I was actually working for Harvard at that time and, no, 22,000 hits would have been par for the course for weeding out the spamulation.

Comment #105: Ms Kate  on  10/12  at  06:05 PM

Student organizations threw okay parties, but it was the same people over and over again.  DAS and pre-med students *didn’t* have much time (typically) for socializing outside of schoolwork, though pure and social sciences were completely different.  But even the admins understood things were a little messed up; they commissioned a study a year or two after I left to find out why students were so miserable.

Yeah, that’s what my friends said about the Harvard campus parties.  As for DAS/pre-med students not having much socializing time, that is true for the most part.  However, the a sizable chunk of high school friends attending Harvard were pre-meds or DAS majors(EE/CS) and the schoolwork wasn’t daunting enough to prevent them from heading off to the MIT frat parties once or even twice a week during the semester.  Didn’t seem to affect their academic performance as every pre-med made it to med school on the first try…including Harvard med and the DAS majors ended up doing grad work at Stanford or Berkeley. 

I should also add something about geeks at Harvard: in the mid-to-late ‘90s, I found there were a lot of awesome women geeks, and at least two of them helped me pass classes I was woefully unprepared for, using their amazing, enormous brains.

Plenty of awesome women geeks at nearly every Boston area school I visited….especially at Harvard, MIT, Tufts, and Wellesley.  Incidentally, the DAS students among them all said if they had to do it over again, they’d opt to attend schools with a more hardcore engineering program like MIT, Caltech, Stanford, CMU, or Berkeley.  They kept ranting that DAS and its students were treated like overshadowed neglected stepchildren of Harvard in relation to their more dominant FAS counterparts.

Comment #106: exholt  on  10/12  at  11:37 PM
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