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Next entry: Everything is culture war, default edition Previous entry: Eroded memories, improved accuracy

Buyers and sellers

FeminismSex

We feminists are big on talking about double standards, with the stud/slut dichotomy being a particular favorite, in fact often referred to as the double standard.  But I think one that we tend to circle around in discussion around sex, consent, sex work, etc. is the way that the continuing model of heterosexuality is based on the he's buying/she's selling model.  That's the most obvious when it comes to sex work, where men are literally buying and women are literally selling, but I think that the assumption that men are the choosers and women are the chosen is the functioning one in even more liberal circles.  (And in misogynist circles, the assumption isn't concealed in neat little euphemisms, and the free market ideology causes them to whine that minor girls aren't legally available for sale.)  But generally I don't see feminists tackle this problem directly, unless they're Twisty Faster, and obviously she's talking on an experimental plane that is interesting for provoking thought but doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the lives of those of us who aren't playing footsie with a separationist kind of thing.  

I'd really like to see more discussion of this double standard as a double standard.  I think that it underpins a lot of rape culture and creepy demands from so-called Nice Guys®, because the women are selling/men are buying model of heterosexuality has the side consequence of convincing the public that men are entitled to partner sex.  After all, in our economic systemm, as long as you have the money, it's unheard of to turn you away as a customer, often because of non-discrimination laws.  Now, the price in the heterosexual dating system isn't always money---this is a metaphorical, not a literal economy---but consider the whine of the Nice Guys®.  They paid the price of giving a woman attention and pretending to listen to her, and now she has to sell, right? Most interestingly, since women are considered a product and men the buyers, women are also considered a resource, and arguments about equitable distribution come into play.   

Women, on the other hand, are the sellers in the heterosexual economy.  Our job is to make sure the product is worth buying.  We are no more entitled to partner sex than a company is entitled to move all its widgets when customers aren't buying.  

Dating advice tends to get gendered along these lines.  When women aren't getting any action, it's pretty much standard to tell them to look at themselves and see if they're charging too high a price for the product they have on offer.  The advice from there is to either improve the quality of the product or lower the price.  Granted, upbeat American society being what it is, most of the advice industry aimed at women is about improving the quality of the product.  

But you definitely get your share of people griping that women are too full of themselves and think they deserve more than they do, i.e. that they charge too high a price for a crappy product. Advice to settle isn't as rampant as advice to learn how to suck cock better and tighten those abs more, but it's definitely out there.  The assumption in a market view also is that the seller really has to sell, but the buyer has an option not to buy.  Thus, in our heterosexual dating model, women are often cast as so desperate to get the man to sign on the dotted line and drive off with his new car-wife.  Men are buyers, of course, and therefore are cast as hesitant to spend the money, and thus commitment is seen as a tense negotiation between a woman trying to move product and a man worried that he's paying too much.  Many conservatives warn that because women are willing to have sex outside of marriage now, that has made it all the much easier for men not to buy at all, much like the way that an avid bicyclist is probably going to be that much harder to sell a new car to. 

Men's sex and dating advice tends to be more on the grounds of being a better consumer.  Pick-up artist books and websites aren't interested in teaching men how to improve the product so more women want to buy.  Seriously, PUA guides read like guides on buying a car---show up looking like money, demonstrate to the salesman that you fill out the checklist of requirements to get a car, talk down the price (which PUA guides suggest you do by insulting women, hoping the loss of esteem in their product will cause them to sell at a lower price), and you're done.  Actual improvement of one's self is as strange an idea as suggesting that you have to have good character and a tight waistline to get a car.  You just need to have the cash, the credit rating, and a solid ability to bargain. 

So much of what causes strife and 500 comment threads on heterosexuality online is when feminists challenge this model of heterosexuality, though again,  I think we usually peck at various manifestations of it as opposed to directly attacking this metaphorical understanding of dating. Elevatorgate caused strife for this reason.  In the market model of dating, men are allowed to drive a hard bargain, just like consumers are allowed to haggle. Offense at being told that this is scary resembled the offense one might take if one is thrown out of a car dealership because you weren't wearing a suit---hey, you don't know if he  has the money!  He should be allowed to at least make an offer!  The reason feminists flinch when using the "I have a boyfriend/husband" strategy to get a pest off them is because that's basically saying that you aren't for sale, because someone has already paid for you.  

And of course, the reason that threads about men who buy sex blow up to epic proportions here is that there's always a handful of guys pushing the Sad Unfuckable John myth, i.e. the belief that men who go to sex workers are just sad sacks who can't get laid through normal means and so are forced---because men are entitled to partner sex---to pay for it.  The fact that women don't turn to paying men for sex if they can't get it through normal means isn't even acknowledged.  After all, women are the sellers, and sellers don't have the right to sell in the way that buyers have the right to buy if they can get the money together.  Feminists are told we're supposed to sympathize with the largely mythical (in reality, most johns have wives or girlfriends, don't actually enjoy the paid-for sex in and of itself, and are mainly shoring up their masculine bona fides by proving they can buy and control women) Sad Unfuckable John, because you know, women are a resource and as good liberals we should want more equitable distribution. 

A lot of us feminists who came up online have been promoting a model of sexuality called "enthusiastic consent", and I think that one thing that could strengthen this is tackling the market model of heterosexuality.  Because, to put on my Twisty Faster hat, if we cast men as buyers and women as sellers, that means that women are assumed to be in a perpetual state of consent just as that gallon of milk at the store is assumed to be on sale for anyone who can cobble together the $5 to buy it.  As long as the market model of heterosexuality is in play, the notion that sex should be a mutual exchange between two individuals will not make so much sense to people.  

What brings all this to my mind was reading Tracy Clark-Flory's examination of when "violent sex", aka sex that involves violence without enthusiastic consent, is okay.  To those of us who don't buy into the market model of heterosexuality, the answer is simple: never.  It's  never okay to have sex with someone who isn't saying yes, and it's especially never okay to make someone feel afraid or threatened.  If a man can't get enthusiastic consent for rough sex from an equal, well, too bad.  Clark-Flory comes to these conclusions, but it was heart-breaking to see how much the idea that men are entitled to partner sex infects our ability to see the ethics of these situations clearly.

How should rough (or "brutal") sex be appropriately negotiated? What should we call an encounter where brutality and dominance is not requested, but also not objected to? Is it the responsibility of the aggressor to OK it with their partner, or is it the "receptive" partner's responsibility to object if it's undesirable?

For those of us who don't believe men are entitled to partner sex, but that it should be a mutual exchange between enthusiastic partners, these aren't complex questions: 1) By open communication between two people who put each other's safety first.  2) It's always wrong, and it's often straight up rape. 3) The responsibility is on the person doing the asking, always. People speaking up for themselves is good, but it's not required.  Making sure you aren't assaulting someone is the responsibility of the person pushing for more. 

All of this is obvious if you don't believe men are buyers and women are sellers.  The notion that she's consenting until she says "no" is ridiculous when applied to other social situations.  For instance, we invite people to parties.  We don't tell them where to be at what time and expect them to work up the courage to say no. We especially don't lure people into our homes under false pretenses and then bar the door and demand they plead a little before we let them out. We don't show up at people's houses uninvited, bags in hand, and start making ourselves comfortable unless they throw a fit and toss us out.  Sex is a social situation, and should be treated as one. But instead, it's treated like a market and so we all have to wonder if it's acceptable to pressure an unwilling person as long as that person isn't fighting back.  

Of course, people are notoriously bad at actually communicating during sex -- whether it's outright stating what they want or asking what their partner wants.

I think that this sentence is a clear example of how the notion that men are entitled to partner sex can creep up even on feminists.  Some men are bad negotiators!  Feel sorry for them!  We certainly can't tell them that it's just too bad if they can't charm someone into having enthusiastic sex with them, because that implies they aren't entitled to partner sex.  To be clear, that's not what Tracy's saying by any means.  But the stance of pity towards a man who struggles to get things like consent is rooted in the largely unexamined male entitlement to women's time and affections. 

I actually would say that my ideal is a world where everyone is kind of selling a little, but no one is cast as a buyer.  I think that people's friendships work this way, in fact.  People shouldn't feel entitled to have the time or affection of others, but instead should assume the responsibility of being charming enough to have people give it to them of their own free will. I do see a turn towards this in our culture somewhat, with men actually starting to think a little harder about being what women want instead of just meeting the metaphorical price tag that they are socialized to think is hanging off women.  We just have a long way to go. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:09 AM • (570) Comments

Dating advice tends to get gendered along these lines.  When women aren’t getting any action, it’s pretty much standard to tell them to look at themselves and see if they’re charging too high a price for the product they have on offer.  [...]  Men’s sex and dating advice tends to be more on the grounds of being a better consumer.  Pick-up artist books and websites aren’t interested in teaching men how to improve the product so more women want to buy.  Seriously, PUA guides read like guides on buying a car [...]

Yeeesh!  This really IS the unspoken assumption of dating advice, isn’t it?  Well put.

Comment #1: Richard Goblin  on  07/20  at  10:25 AM

An excellent article, lucidly written. I liked the comparison with friendship that you explore towards the conclusion. In fact, whenever people start feeling “entitled” to something, it’s always bad news for any relationship.

Comment #2: Adriana  on  07/20  at  10:28 AM

I always thought the “I have a husband/boyfriend” line was a kind way of says “you’re not fuckable, go away.”

Comment #3: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  10:54 AM

Of course, people are notoriously bad at actually communicating during sex—whether it’s outright stating what they want or asking what their partner wants.

I think this is true for a lot of people; I know I had to get better over time at sexual communication, and I’ve had partners with varying degrees of communicative skill/ability, although the first principle of consent was a pretty obvious one that we all established first. But even if one has trouble with communicating what she or he wants, it’s incumbent upon that person to improve that, not for potential partners to guess what’s going on.

Comment #4: Linnaeus  on  07/20  at  10:55 AM

(oops, finished too soon)  or does that still assume a buyer/seller scenario? 

I think you underestimate the seller aspect for the man (assuming a hetro-normative setting here).  I remember a lot of guys primping to make themselves presentable as well as getting advice from women friends on making yourself more marketable by picking a particular set of clothes, etc.

Comment #5: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  10:57 AM

Bad cases make bad law.

Drunken men in elevators at 4am is not the model for courtship and love and marriage. It’s not the rule, it’s the exception. Are there whining libertarians who defend the indefensible in matters of love and marriage. Yes. But these people are living in a world rhetorical fancy and fantasy. They would also put us on the gold standard and abolish the 14th amendment.

We shouldn’t take a far right response to elevatorgate and then cite that as evidence that “In our society, men are entitled to sex.” After I read something Ron Paul says, can I then say, “In our society, their is a presumption that we should be on the gold standard and drink un-pasteurized milk.”

If we did a phone survey, how many people in the US would agree that “Men are entitled to sex in our society and women aren’t”? It strikes me as a case of really missing the forest for the trees. It seems Marcotte is fashioning a moral system that assumes the vast majority of men are Don Juans. Actually, it’s a tiny minority. Cads and Don Juans are the exception, not the rule.

The ‘sad sack’ is an easy target for contempt, but the older single men I know are certainly not operating under any kind of ‘presumption that they are entitled to sex.’ I thought prostitution was itself an acknowledgment of this fact - but here we are conflating prostitution with courtship.

Comment #6: KingElvis  on  07/20  at  11:13 AM

This is a really fantastic summary of how I have been describing rape culture for years.  I hate it with the fire of a million burning suns when men who may or may not be genuinely feminist-allied will try to determine just how much coercion is acceptable before it counts as rape.

And if any man comes on this thread and throws a pity party because women don’t objectify men (as much) and that hurts his self-esteem, I will reach through the computer screen and punch him in the balls.  Being objectified is not a compliment.

Comment #7: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:13 AM

“Because, to put on my Twisty Faster hat, if we cast men as buyers and women as sellers, that means that women are assumed to be in a perpetual state of consent just as that gallon of milk at the store is assumed to be on sale for anyone who can cobble together the $5 to buy it.”

Which makes you feel unsafe just walking down a city street, minding your own business. Some days trying to get from Point A to Point B is like running a marathon of male privilege and insults because you have the unmitigated gall to just ignore them. The only reason you ignore them is because you are scared of what they might do to you if you just let go and curse them out.

#5 Woodrowfan, Please! Female friends giving some helpful advice to a guy they want to see happily coupled is not even remotely close to the industry of commercializing female bodies. Yes, guys try to be more attractive to women but if you wear a nice outfit it is not automatically assumed that you did so to impress anyone. If a woman dresses up, it is assumed that she’s putting out signals that she wants to get laid.

Comment #8: serious bette  on  07/20  at  11:15 AM

If we did a phone survey, how many people in the US would agree that “Men are entitled to sex in our society and women aren’t”?

It depends how you phrase it.  On this very blog, one health care worker said that they hire prostitutes to give oral sex to older male patients who can’t masturbate, to keep them calm and happy.  But the idea of hiring male prostitutes to service female patients was never even considered.  It’s not that people think that women aren’t entitled to sex; it’s that it never even occurs to them that most women would even want sex.

And the hard-right position on elevatorgate would be that the woman shouldn’t have gone in there alone and should have brought a male friend along to protect her.  If the creepy guy had in fact raped her, she would have been blamed for it.

Comment #9: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:17 AM

@KingElvis: Nope!  The reason EG was such a big deal was the insistence that EG’s behavior was utterly ordinary and completely excusable, rather than an outlier and cause for concern.

EG was just a loser.  The men (and status-clinging women) defending him were the problem.

Comment #10: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  11:23 AM

KingElvis, what people *say* they think or believe is different from what is demonstrated by their actions in all kinds of ways.  I bet if you took a poll asking “Is it ever acceptable to steal from the government?” the vast majority of people who fudge on their taxes would answer with a resounding “No.”  (As another example, scroll down a few posts to the one about people’s responses to the question of whether they benefit from government social programs—this poll didn’t even ask about what people thought was right or wrong, just what they *actually did*, and people’s responses still weren’t accurate.

So yes, I agree, if you ask people, “Do you think men are entitled to sex?”, everyone who isn’t trolling the poll will say “No.”  But if you look at behavior, you get a different impression.  So the question to ask yourself is, is it easier to lie once with your mouth to a pollster, or over and over all the time, with your behavior, to everyone you meet?

Comment #11: A.  on  07/20  at  11:25 AM

Someone tried to BUY my mom from her boyfriend a few weeks ago. Like, they offered him money and drugs to sleep with her - her consent was not part of the exchange. Commenters and other people I’ve had this conversation with many, many times say that the sexual “economy” is a “fringe” thing but it’s not, it’s something that permeates dating culture as a whole. That guy may have been a shithead but he was a shithead living in a culture where that sort of shit is permissable.

Comment #12: Aria  on  07/20  at  11:31 AM

This entire post is brilliant.

I have nothing else to add.

Comment #13: luxaeturna  on  07/20  at  11:37 AM

And of course, the entire asking a father for permission to marry and the giving away of the bride plays right into this.  Some people pretend it’s just a quaint tradition, but it’s still very transactional.  When I was on vacation in Egypt when I was 18 years old, my dad literally received several offers for me.  I’m not trying to make this out as some backwards culture just being barbaric.  My point is that it’s same thing we have here, only they are more explicit about it and don’t try as hard to pretend it doesn’t exist.  If a man ever asked my dad for permission to marry me, I would automatically turn him down, especially after having been through that experience.

Comment #14: bananacat  on  07/20  at  11:37 AM

I always thought the “I have a husband/boyfriend” line was a kind way of says “you’re not fuckable, go away.”

It’s more “I’m not interested,” either because you actually do have one and thus aren’t looking, or as you said, “you’re not fuckable”.  For many of us, “I’m taken” is the reason we would say no, but we shouldn’t have to give a reason at all!  If I tell a guy “no,” I should not have to back up that “no” with an acceptable reason.  Guys who want one should go fuck themselves—it’s the most they deserve.

Comment #15: Jayn Newell  on  07/20  at  11:37 AM

if you ask people, “Do you think men are entitled to sex?”, everyone who isn’t trolling the poll will say “No.”

A., unfortunately, I wouldn’t even presume that much; I think it depends on whom you polled.  I remember personally knowing too many guys back in college who would have come right out & said yes - & I didn’t even move in the super-entitled-frat-boy circle.  I hope I’m not mistaken in thinking that the term “trolling” implies a measure of dishonesty; because sadly, I think said guys were being completely sincere.  Maybe I went to a particularly screwed-up school, or maybe it was just a different time, but the misogyny there was pretty much in-your-face even from the perspective of a feminism-uninitiated guy like myself.

Comment #16: GSDavis  on  07/20  at  11:37 AM

Punditus: I’m saying the response of the right wing to EG shouldn’t be taken as the norm - I’m sure they insisted it was ‘normal,’ but I’m just saying, consider the source.

A: Fair enough.

Banana cat: There is the ‘gigolo’ but that’s for rich people. I would contend also that in homo culture, you still have sugar daddy/pretty boy thing that happens very often, where one person holds the power and purse strings.

Comment #17: KingElvis  on  07/20  at  11:39 AM

Woodrow, I note at the end that it’s changing. But not without moral panics! Think about how angry people got when the term “metrosexual” was coined. The idea that men treat women’s desires seriously—-that the be attractive as well as simply nice and willing to pay the requisite “price”—-caused a lot of hysteria.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  11:44 AM

It wasn’t the right wing who I saw leaping to the defence of EG. It was a large, male-skewed proportion of the atheist and skeptical communities.

Comment #19: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  11:44 AM

But the idea of hiring male prostitutes to service female patients was never even considered.  It’s not that people think that women aren’t entitled to sex; it’s that it never even occurs to them that most women would even want sex.

There’s also the perception that if women want sex, they can obtain it fairly easily. Not saying that’s true at all, but that perception is out there.

Comment #20: Linnaeus  on  07/20  at  11:46 AM

Great post, Amanda. I long for the day when I can turn gendered expectations around and give the lady in my life sexy rewards for the things she does, but I don’t know when that will be.

(And, babe, if you’re reading this comment, know that I don’t hold anything against you. I blame the patriarchy.)

Re: bananacat @ 9

On this very blog, one health care worker said that they hire prostitutes to give oral sex to older male patients who can’t masturbate, to keep them calm and happy.

WTF!

Comment #21: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  11:52 AM

Linn, if they sell cheaply enough, that is. But actually, our culture has the stereotype of the sex-starved fat woman. It’s a comic trope. But the person who is pitied is not her in comic scenes involving that stock character. Audiences generally pity the man who fucks her, as he’s assumed to deserve better but he underbid.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  11:54 AM

‘How to outsmart a bitch’?

Comment #23: igglanova  on  07/20  at  12:05 PM

King, you’re asking the wrong question.  The polling question would be to ask, “With men and women, who are the buyers and who are the sellers?” That would get you 95-99% responses of people saying women are definitely selling and men are definitely buying.  That leads to “men are entitled to partner sex”, because the idea then is that as long as men cough up the correct price, they get to have what they want.  The focus then becomes on haggling over the price.  PUAs are trying to teach men how to bid low, and dating advice for women are based on trying to get the highest price (an engagement ring—-talk about symbolic payment!). 

I just reject that entire model.  I think it’s toxic.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  12:07 PM

We shouldn’t take a far right response to elevatorgate and then cite that as evidence that “In our society, men are entitled to sex.”

I was unaware that Richard Dawkins qualified as “far right.” The shocking(ish) thing about Elevatorgate was how much rampant male entitlement came out from the LEFT.

Comment #25: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  12:08 PM

Incidentally, this is why “Harry Potter” just isn’t a feminist text.  We’re supposed to root for Ron to get the beautiful, talented, smart, and way-too-fucking-good-for-him Hermione because he’s a nice guy who has paid the requisite price.  He showed up at the dealership, provided his credit score (he’s nice) and came up with funds (he cares for her), and so it’s a sale!  Why would you ever question otherwise?

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  12:11 PM

I saw a question on an advice forum recently that this post makes a lot of sense of. The asker was a very young woman whose boyfriend, not yet divorced from his previous wife, had proposed to her after a serious argument, then given her £50 to go and buy the ring herself because he wasn’t going to go shopping with her for girly shit like rings.

She was really upset - but instead of the more glaringly obvious problems she seemed fixated on the small sum of money and the lack of “romance”. It was really perplexing - but I think you’ve nailed it. In her mind: she was for sale, the auctioneer’s hammer had come down and the final price - her price, her worth - was low, so she was devastated. Of course plenty of commenters then attacked her for being mercenary.

Comment #27: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  12:23 PM

Re: Amanda @ 26

We’re supposed to root for Ron to get the beautiful, talented, smart, and way-too-fucking-good-for-him Hermione because he’s a nice guy who has paid the requisite price.

It’s particularly egregious in the (film) epilogue when we see Ron, tubby and disheveled, still somehow with Hermione who has managed to stay ridiculously put-together and mainstream-beautiful despite having had two (I think) kids. At least Harry appeared to have had the decency to keep his figure.

Comment #28: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  12:24 PM

Powerful post, Amanda. One of your best.

Comment #29: Broce  on  07/20  at  12:28 PM

#28: In a lot of ways, it stole a lot of its plot from Mannequin II: On the Move.

Comment #30: norbizness  on  07/20  at  12:32 PM

It’s more “I’m not interested,” either because you actually do have one and thus aren’t looking, or as you said, “you’re not fuckable”.  For many of us, “I’m taken” is the reason we would say no, but we shouldn’t have to give a reason at all!  If I tell a guy “no,” I should not have to back up that “no” with an acceptable reason.  Guys who want one should go fuck themselves—it’s the most they deserve.

Certainly “no” is sufficient but being given a reason is polite.  And that would apply to male-male, male-female, and female-female. Unless the guy presses (proving he is a jerk or clueless) why not be polite?  It’s not “having” to give a reason, it’s “chosing” to give a reason because the approacher is also a human being deserving some basic respect.
Of course if the other person proves to be a jerk, then all bets are off and “drop dead you creep and go away before I call the bouncer” works fine..

As for Ron/Hermione: maybe she loves him because he’s always got her back, because he makes her happy, because he’s good in bed? 

 

Comment #31: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  12:37 PM

There’s also the perception that if women want sex, they can obtain it fairly easily. Not saying that’s true at all, but that perception is out there.

But in the specific example I was referring to, these were elderly or disabled residents at a long-term care facility, where some of them (men and women) were not even capable of masturbation.  This is a case where old or undesirable women are supposed to just be celibate, not a case where they should have or could have just obtained sex easily.  These were people who couldn’t go out to a club or even leave their bedrooms, but nobody thought of bringing in male prostitutes for the poor, unsatisfied women who can’t even masturbate.

Comment #32: bananacat  on  07/20  at  12:39 PM

This is one of the best pieces I’ve ever read about gender dynamics with respect to dating/sex in our culture, period.  I’m sharing anywhere and everywhere I can.  We have to get out of this toxic market-based view somehow.

Comment #33: chareth cutestory  on  07/20  at  12:42 PM

Woodrowfan, please. It does not work both ways. MANY men act like they are entitled to take a woman’s rejection to some kind of court of appeal. If you are not one of those men you have probably never seen this kind of interaction, but do us the politeness of not jumping to disbelieve our experiences when we talk about them.

Comment #34: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  12:45 PM

Unless the guy presses (proving he is a jerk or clueless) why not be polite?

Wow, I am assuming you have not been hit on by very many men, but in any case you need to take your head out of your ass and stop acting so privileged.  Here’s the thing-a lot of jerks don’t start out acting like jerks from the very beginning.  Most of them will seem polite at first, and they all react differently to rejection.  Many of them will take a polite refusal as a challenge.  In these cases you have to be firm from the very beginning or they just will not take no for an answer.  They will see politeness as a bargaining position.  But there’s no way to know who these men are from the very beginning.  So plenty of times I won’t risk it and I’ll just be very firm and impolite from the beginning.  Waiting until they show signs of being a jerk is usually too late and they only see it as a challenge.  So I take the risk and act like a bitch because that’s the only way to get rid of some of these guys.  Of course I’ll be judged by assholes like you if I’m too bitchy, and I will be judged by other assholes (possibly including you) if I am too polite and then can’t shake the jerk.

Comment #35: bananacat  on  07/20  at  12:47 PM

As for Ron/Hermione: maybe she loves him because he’s always got her back, because he makes her happy, because he’s good in bed?

But of course if Hermione always has his back and makes him happy and is good in bed, and then she got fat, nobody would ever suggest these things and would just tell him to divorce her because she let herself go.  Fat women are never given the same benefit of the doubt.

Comment #36: bananacat  on  07/20  at  12:48 PM

Awesome post Amanda. Thanks for sharing, I’ve really never seen it put so accurately…

Comment #37: James K. Polk, Esq.  on  07/20  at  12:49 PM

Bananacat, you put it better than I did, thank you!

Comment #38: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  12:50 PM

This buyer/seller perspective helps illuminate why the “Girls Rule the World” school of girl-power is unsatisfying to feminists.  It’s a form of empowerment, but it still buys into the prevailing economic model; it says “girls can claim power by withholding their product or inflating the price” but it never questions the underlying assumption of who is selling (and what the product is).

Comment #39: Cris (without an H)  on  07/20  at  12:50 PM

Of course if the other person proves to be a jerk, then all bets are off and “drop dead you creep and go away before I call the bouncer” works fine..

Have you ever actually tried this?  Because it absolutely does not work fine in real life.  He’ll likely get angry and make a big scene, possibly following you out of the bar.  If he doesn’t physically threaten you, there’s not much the bouncer can do.  In many cases he’ll side with the jerk.  And now that this jerk has been publicly humiliated, he has something to prove and he just might want to track you down and make you pay.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  07/20  at  12:50 PM

Bananacat: so you go through life assuming the worst of everyone you meet. that’s pretty fucking sad.

MissPrism: OK, fair enough. But why assume that at the very start?  All I am suggesting is treating another person with dignity for a whole 5 seconds.  Perhaps I’m not the one acting privileged. maybe it’s the person who assumes that HAVE to be a jerk from the very first who is assuming a superior position..

Comment #41: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  12:52 PM

Incidentally there’s a thread over at Man Boobs right now featuring an MRA complaining that women are setting their prices extortionately high when they insist that men wipe their arses.

Comment #42: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  12:53 PM

so you go through life assuming the worst of everyone you meet. that’s pretty fucking sad.

No, I don’t do this.  But I really am damned if I do, damned if I don’t in many cases.  So sometimes I act “bitchy” and maybe it’s the wrong choice but I’m not a fucking mind reader.  And frankly, since you’re gonna judge me anyway, I’d rather try to avoid getting raped if I can help it (which I sadly can’t most of the time).  So my point is I don’t give a fuck what you think about my tone.

So let’s say a young man in a gray hoodie with dark glasses is walking down the street in the middle of the night.  You’re alone and a little tipsy because you’ve just been drinking.  You see this man cross over to your side of the street.  His hands are in his pockets.  Then he comes closer and you see he is about to talk to you.  Do you assume that he just wants to ask for directions until he says otherwise?  Or do you put your guard up and think there’s a chance he might mug you?  I’m sure you won’t be honest with me, but at least be honest with yourself.  You would not give him the benefit of the doubt and be polite until he proved to be threatening.  I know that you wouldn’t.  You would fear for your safety.

Comment #43: bananacat  on  07/20  at  12:57 PM

Have you ever actually tried this?  Because it absolutely does not work fine in real life. 

and saying “fuck off jerk” from the start works better?!?!!?!!?

Comment #44: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  12:58 PM

Jayn Newell: For many of us, “I’m taken” is the reason we would say no, but we shouldn’t have to give a reason at all!

My personal analogy for this is Christian evangelists at my door.  If I say “I’m sorry, I’m not interested” or “I’m not religious,” that is often interpreted as a challenge: I’m a candidate for conversion. But if I say “Sorry, we’re Jewish,” they always bid me good afternoon and move on.

Woodrowfan: It’s not “having” to give a reason, it’s “chosing” to give a reason because the approacher is also a human being deserving some basic respect.

This is a nice ideal, but just like in my missionary scenario, experience tells us that the person isn’t going to take “no” for an answer that easily.  Evangelists and pickup artists and telemarketers are explicitly trained not to take “no” for an answer.  So we get in the habit of expecting that mentality from them.

Is that unfair to the Nice Telemarketers and Nice Evangelists and Nice Guys who are ready to politely accept my first refusal? Maybe. Sorry.

Comment #45: Cris (without an H)  on  07/20  at  12:58 PM

Woodrowfan: Did it occur to you that maybe Bananacat, MissPrism, and many other women - including myself - are “going through life” in such a way that is based on our own repeated experiences? And assuming that someone might be a jerk is not even close to “assuming the worst”.

And believe me, we often do start out by being polite and treating the situation with dignity for five seconds…because that’s often how long it takes for the guy to show we were God damn fucking right to assume negative intentions. So fucking forgive me if sometimes I don’t feel like performing that’s mummer’s show and make my non-interest clear in what are NOT rude or bitchy ways but simply affirmative and adamant ways. If men are allowed to be aggressive in pursuit, I am allowed to be aggressive in refusal.

Comment #46: Alison  on  07/20  at  12:59 PM

Woodrow, when I am cycling past a parked car, I leave enough room so that if a driver thoughtlessly and illegally opens their door without looking, I do not smash into the door and injure myself. Similarly i look both ways before crossing the road even if the green man is showing. I have assumed that all drivers are thoughtless criminals! Horror! Do they not deserve respect?

Sorry, but a firm “No thank you” is not disrespectful. And if it were, I’m afraid that I would still put my comfort and safety above making some male stranger’s evening fractionally more pleasant, ooh I’m such a bitch.

Comment #47: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  12:59 PM

You would not give him the benefit of the doubt and be polite until he proved to be threatening.  I know that you wouldn’t.  You would fear for your safety.

I Have been in that situation and yes, I was polite AND on guard. they are not mutually exclusive..

 

Comment #48: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:00 PM

All I am suggesting is treating another person with dignity for a whole 5 seconds.

Like I said, some men will consider this a bargaining position.  I don’t assume every man will be a jerk, but sometimes I just want to get on with my fucking life and not take the risk.  This is especially true if I’m just riding the subway or in a grocery store or doing errands.  It’s not my duty to take time out of my busy day to convince this random stranger that no, I really truly genuinely am not interested in dating him.  So sometimes I’ll assume he’s the jerk who needs to be given zero leeway and firmly refuse him from the beginning.  And plenty of times I assume right.  And sometimes I probably assume wrong but it’s not my job to make sure that some random dood’z feefees don’t get hurt when he approaches a random stranger who is busy with her own life.  And depending on the city, I especially don’t have time to do this literally multiple times each day.

Comment #49: bananacat  on  07/20  at  01:01 PM

[Er - “that mummer’s show”, it should read. I need to preview…]

Comment #50: Alison  on  07/20  at  01:02 PM

Woodrowfan, no, a firm, unqualified No at the start, progressing to Fuck Off, Jerk if it is safe to do so and the jerk has not by then fucked off of his own accord. So fuck off, jerk.

Comment #51: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  01:03 PM

and saying “fuck off jerk” from the start works better?!?!!?!!?

I’ve never actually said that, but yes, sometimes that does work better.  Of course every jerk is different but most of them will back down if you come on stronger at the beginning.

Comment #52: bananacat  on  07/20  at  01:03 PM

Sorry, but a firm “No thank you” is not disrespectful. And if it were, I’m afraid that I would still put my comfort and safety above making some male stranger’s evening fractionally more pleasant, ooh I’m such a bitch.

perhaps I expressed myself poorly. i was trying to suggest that a firm “no thank you” was fine.  I never suggested that the person approached say something like “sorry you big hunk, I’d fuck you silly if I wasn’t married.”  I simply suggested that while “no” was fine (and should be honored) that maybe adding a “I’m married” or “I’m with friends” or even a “no, thank you” was a bit nicer than a simple “no” and light years away from “no, fuck off creep.”

Comment #53: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:04 PM

Woodrowfan: pls don’t pass this “advice” onto women you actually care about.  kthxbai.

Comment #54: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  01:05 PM

Re: Approaching and being approached

As far as politeness is concerned, I tend to think that all the burden lies on the approacher. That’s the person who has a proactive choice in terms of whether contact will happen or not. It doesn’t seem fair to expect (or even particularly desire) the subject of one’s approach to respond in a particular way. In choosing to approach them, one puts them on the spot, and maybe they don’t want to be.

Comment #55: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  01:09 PM

I’m afraid that I would still put my comfort and safety above making some male stranger’s evening fractionally more pleasant, ooh I’m such a bitch.

I will join in the bitch club.  And I sure as hell won’t add “thank you” to my “no” for some random dood that approached me.

Comment #56: bananacat  on  07/20  at  01:12 PM

Woodrowfan, one thing it seems like you really don’t understand is that a lot - a LOT - of men take “politeness” as an invitation no matter *what* is being said with the polite tone. If a woman says “no thank you” while making eye contact and smiling, many many men simply ignore or don’t even hear the “no” and just see the smile and the eye contact…and for a lot of them, that smile translates to “she wants my dick in her mouth, now let me just persuade her”. If you come off at all pleasant or friendly, they see that as there being a chance for them to wriggle their way in despite your refusal. Refusals are so so often not taken as an ending of possibility but simply as an obstacle to be gotten past, and that happens most especially when those refusals are given in a sweet, polite way. Many women have learned this through experience, and some of that experience has been bad, really fucking bad.

So for me, for my safety, for my well-being, I don’t bother with the sweet smile and the “Oh, I’m sorry, but no thank you, is that okay?” mealy-mouthed pleasant little lady shit. I don’t stand up and scream FUCK OFF AND DIIIIIEEEE in a guy;s face either. I simply firmly and clearly, with no smile and no friendly tone, say “I’m not interested”. If it’s not polite? If it offends his sensibilities or makes hm feel unwanted? Sorry, welcome to the real world, where my autonomy, comfort and safety is more important to me than your penis’s feelings.

Comment #57: Alison  on  07/20  at  01:12 PM

As far as politeness is concerned, I tend to think that all the burden lies on the approacher. That’s the person who has a proactive choice in terms of whether contact will happen or not. It doesn’t seem fair to expect (or even particularly desire) the subject of one’s approach to respond in a particular way. In choosing to approach them, one puts them on the spot, and maybe they don’t want to be.

thank you, a reasoned, non-angry response.  And you make a good point.  I had not considered the question like that.  That does change things.

Comment #58: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:13 PM

Hey now, let’s not get pejorative by implication. It’s easy for me to stay neutral because I don’t have a horse in this particular race.

Always happy when I’m helpful, though.

Comment #59: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  01:20 PM

Woodrowfan, one thing it seems like you really don’t understand is that a lot - a LOT - of men take “politeness” as an invitation no matter *what* is being said with the polite tone.

so I gather. OK, I get that point. 

simply firmly and clearly, with no smile and no friendly tone, say “I’m not interested”. If it’s not polite?

 

But I DO think that’s polite!  I think you’re reading more into “polite” than I intended.  I never meant the person had to smile and bat their eyelashes.  all I am saying is that maybe, just maybe ‘fuck off creep” isn’t always the best initial response!

Comment #60: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:20 PM

I too: yes, you were helpful. I was thinking in terms of a particulate social setting where people go to meet other people, but you reminded me that there were other possible settings.

Comment #61: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:22 PM

Show of hands: how many people think Woodrowfan is the very person who won’t take a polite no for an answer?  (S)He’s so obsessed with this tone argument because (s)he has nothing else to go on.  I really can’t believe that someone is relying so heavily on the tone argument, but I guess nothing I say counts because I said a naughty word.

Comment #62: bananacat  on  07/20  at  01:22 PM

I was unaware that Richard Dawkins qualified as “far right.” The shocking(ish) thing about Elevatorgate was how much rampant male entitlement came out from the LEFT.

Pretty much.

Comment #63: Richard Goblin  on  07/20  at  01:25 PM

Bananacat: both hands raised over here.

Woodrowfan: but you know what? if I feel like just saying “fuck off creep” because I’ve had a shitty day, or I’ve already been approached/pestered by a few guys, or I just had a fight with my SO, or I just got dumped, or whatever fucking reason…I can and will say it, and i *still* don’t care how it makes the person feel. I’m not saying I specifically want to run around and make people feel crappy at random - I’m saying that how I am feeling in that moment matters more to me than how they’re feeling. You can say you don’t think that’s “the best initial response”, and I can say I actually fail to give a fuck what you think.

Comment #64: Alison  on  07/20  at  01:27 PM

BC: when I was young, yes, I was. Then a good (female) friend sat me down and said “look, no means no”  and explained what it was like for a young woman being approached.  After that, yes,  I took “no” to mean no.

Comment #65: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:28 PM

The Patriarchy Hurts Men, Too.  If you’re sad that the women you encounter are stressed or crazy or cannot be polite to you, blame the cause, not the victim.

Comment #66: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  01:30 PM

As for Ron/Hermione: maybe she loves him because he’s always got her back, because he makes her happy, because he’s good in bed?

Or maybe he’s giving her secret cash payments.  Makes more sense than your conjecture, which is still based on the false assumption that women don’t really want someone to set us on fire, but someone to simply come up with the right price.  We don’t know, because all that is extra-textual.

What’s on the page is the cultural assumption that a man who gets the bride price together is entitled to the best product on the market.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  01:31 PM

*hand up*

I have no idea where WRF got the idea that anyone, anywhere was advocating “fuck off creep” as an initial response. It’d be an extremely dangerous thing to say, for one thing. The thing WRF first took objection to was Jan’s statement that a woman doesn’t have to provide a reason for her No, and then (s)he (£5 says he) turned that into ‘fuck off creep” in his own head and kept ignoring what we were actually saying in favour of pitying the imaginary poor rejected fictional doods in his own made-up sweary bitch berates innocent niceguy scenario. Thereby being a jerk.

Comment #68: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  01:32 PM

I did fully expect a man to throw a fit in this thread, by the way.  Whenever you challenge the “women are selling, men are buying” model, someone always does.  In this case, denying the obvious and using his male privilege to simply be right by assertion is the weapon, one of the most annoying tools in the arsenal of derailing tactics.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  01:33 PM

I did fully expect a man to throw a fit in this thread, by the way.  Whenever you challenge the “women are selling, men are buying” model, someone always does.  In this case, denying the obvious and using his male privilege to simply be right by assertion is the weapon, one of the most annoying tools in the arsenal of derailing tactics.

Comment #70: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  01:33 PM

Bananacat: so you go through life assuming the worst of everyone you meet. that’s pretty fucking sad.

Oh, go piss up a rope.  Be a woman for 20 years and then tell women that unless they tolerate assholes and jerks coming onto them at all hours, they are “sad”.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  01:36 PM

PM, true, we are talking about how people react within a system.

And I don’t really have a dog in this fight as I am several decades away from approaching someone for a date, or a drink.

Comment #72: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:37 PM

Also, before you continue pouting and throwing a fit about “politeness”, Woodrow, I recommend this post:

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

The conclusion is that while both men and women understand polite refusals just fine, there’s a cultural narrative that claims men don’t.  And while they do, men who want to pester women—-aka, haggle on the price because of the market model of dating—-pretend they don’t know.  Which is, of course, a common haggling trick.  And it’s perfectly acceptable in an actual market!  But when it comes to sex, it’s inexcusable.  But it’s something that men are encouraged to do.  Not even just tolerated in, but encouraged.  Being a man is often defined as being a good consumer, aka willing to haggle.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  01:40 PM

“throw a fit”?? Amanda, I thought you wrote an interesting post and wanted to talk about it. 

fine, whatever.  you’re determined to stuff me into some predetermined box of stereotypes.  as I told BC, you’re pretty fucking sad…

Comment #74: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:41 PM

This is one reason why I won’t date a man who freaks out at the suggestion that he should pay for the first date. Mind, I’m not a big fan of that tradition in general, and I usually insist on either going Dutch or picking up the check on the second date. But, to a man, the guys who whine about paying and act with barely veiled hostility when the check arrives aren’t doing it out of a deep-seated belief in equality, but are actually admitting that they think no woman is worth that “price”. There also seems to be an unfortunate correlation between that attitude and the guy in question having literally nothing to offer a partner, other than (maybe) his money, making it that much more disgusting when he won’t even offer that much.

While I agree with the overall societal critique, I do think that men who genuinely like women, want to be romantically successful, and know what they’re doing already do “sell” themselves to some degree. The problem is the many men who think they don’t have to do shit for women, and the many women who put up with it.

Comment #75: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  01:42 PM

I apologize for losing my temper, and I’m sorry I stepped on some people’s toes. that was not my intent.

Comment #76: Woodrowfan  on  07/20  at  01:45 PM

Then a good (female) friend sat me down and said “look, no means no”  and explained what it was like for a young woman being approached.  After that, yes,  I took “no” to mean no.

It sounds like you’re talking about men who have had this conversation, while many women have to deal with men who haven’t.  I’ve been very fortunate in this regard, but some women do find that yes, they DO have to give a reason because it’s the only way to get the guy to back off. It’s not just limited to dating either—plenty of people find themselves in similar situations regarding marriage, having kids, talking to estranged family members, etc.

Comment #77: Jayn Newell  on  07/20  at  01:47 PM

Woodrowfan @31 - if a guy hits on a woman who is obviously not looking for a hook up (that would be most of us who are not sending out very overt signals) has already proven himself to be a jerk and doesn’t deserve politeness.

Comment #78: helen w. h.  on  07/20  at  01:53 PM

If there is a buyer/seller relationship in play then it only reflects the balance of sexual desire in any relationship. If the threshold for wanting sex in a relationship is lower for one person than the other, they’ll invariably try and persuade the other party to sleep with them, be it by charm, gifts or, in the worst case scenario, coersion.

As Amanda says, the desirer/buyer in this situation will most often be the man, partly because potential social penalties for ‘sluttishness’ tend to be lower for them and partly because they’re most often the partner who’s made the initial advance. As for entitlement, it does exist but not in as straightforward a manner as it’s presented here. It’s more of a complex mixture stemming from existing cultural tropes of ‘good’ people being rewarded with love and sex, and harmful social ideas about needing to ‘prove yourself’ in order to sleep with women.

Comment #79: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  07/20  at  02:10 PM

Just wanted to say: THIS POST IS FANTASTIC!

Comment #80: wondering  on  07/20  at  02:26 PM

I used to live in a neighborhood where I got approached by panhandlers every time I set foot out my front door. A lot of them would not take “no” for an answer, either, and every once in a while one of them would get threatening. I, too, found that it was best to be polite, but firm with them from the beginning. But if anyone had ever suggested to me that I owed any of these people an explanation for why I said “no”, I’d have said they were out of their mind.

Comment #81: Ridnik Chrome  on  07/20  at  02:35 PM

That the buy/sell model is true can’t be seriously disputed.  Try posting a pictureless message on Craigslist and see what kind of response you get when you post in men searching and women searching. My question then is how do you change that? Per Twisty’s argumet, I have a very vivid memory of the time I talked with my doctor about various STDs, and being told time and again how much worse each infection is for women. It was truly eye opening. And I also have the scary experience of a condom tear and scurrying for a rush doctor appointment and a Plan B pill.
So I have enormous sympathy for women and I understand that they have to be much more careful than men, and that’s before we even touch on the threat of rape. But I do wonder what is the suggested path from here. How do you turn guys into sellers? Will that require abolishing STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and rape altogether? Sign me up for that. But how…

Comment #82: ArielNYC  on  07/20  at  02:38 PM

I used to live in a neighborhood where I got approached by panhandlers every time I set foot out my front door. A lot of them would not take “no” for an answer, either, and every once in a while one of them would get threatening. I, too, found that it was best to be polite, but firm with them from the beginning. But if anyone had ever suggested to me that I owed any of these people an explanation for why I said “no”, I’d have said they were out of their mind.

Comment #83: Ridnik Chrome  on  07/20  at  02:38 PM

I think the word “polite” was unhelpful in this conversation. For example, Alison, I would not have expected at all that what you describe as your response was “impolite,” but apparently you heard “be polite” as a criticism of something you do.

Maybe part of this is that women feel like there’s a higher bar for “politeness” than men do. Maybe women are more likely to think that to be *polite*, they also have to be *nice*. I would love some anecdata on that.

It seems to me like pretty much no one *here* thinks that a firm “No” is inappropriate, or that women are obligated to smile if a stranger approaches them. But some people don’t think that folks are entitled to - in general - open with “fuck off, creep” because it is unnecessarily rude. Is that a fair summary?

I also need to remember that people who say “fuck off, creep” is appropriate may be imagining a different situation than I am. “Man approaches woman” is a very general situation, there are lots of different responses I could imagine are appropriate depending on context.

Comment #84: Benquo  on  07/20  at  02:44 PM

Amanda’s point: That Sex should not follow market transaction rules.

AnoNY’s interpretation of that point: Businesses should totally be allowed to discriminate against Certain Types. I’m sorry, were you saying something about enthusiastic consent? I don’t understand how that fits into my greater point about keeping the black people out of your bodega.

Comment #85: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/20  at  02:47 PM

It’s particularly egregious in the (film) epilogue when we see Ron, tubby and disheveled, still somehow with Hermione who has managed to stay ridiculously put-together and mainstream-beautiful despite having had two (I think) kids. At least Harry appeared to have had the decency to keep his figure.

My God, it’s “According to Jim: The Movie”!

Comment #86: Sour Kraut  on  07/20  at  02:48 PM

WoodrowFan, I’ve met and dated a lot of women, and I’ve never encountered hostility or thought the woman was acting threatened just by my presence. If they are, you’re doing it wrong, or they have a serious problem. If someone treats me impolitely, then that’s on them—those who consistently violate social norms and harm others will eventually find themselves socially isolated. If you think you’re being treated poorly, either that person will end up paying a consequence down the road OR you are just being too sensitive to being brushed off, or it is that YOU are actually the impolite one.

Comment #87: Tyro  on  07/20  at  02:50 PM

But in the specific example I was referring to, these were elderly or disabled residents at a long-term care facility, where some of them (men and women) were not even capable of masturbation.  This is a case where old or undesirable women are supposed to just be celibate, not a case where they should have or could have just obtained sex easily.  These were people who couldn’t go out to a club or even leave their bedrooms, but nobody thought of bringing in male prostitutes for the poor, unsatisfied women who can’t even masturbate.

Ah, I hadn’t seen that comment.

Comment #88: Linnaeus  on  07/20  at  02:52 PM

81: I think you’re getting hung up on the term “free market”. Maybe putting it another way will help:

Commodities are the classic “market good”, since they, as well as the money that pays for them, are fungible. Since sex is not a commodity (because people are usually unique, with unique preferences), it does not admit of commoditization. You can’t just get “sex,” you have sex with a *person.* This means you don’t have the same reasonable expectation that everything is for sale *to you* at a price you can pay.

Comment #89: Benquo  on  07/20  at  02:52 PM

I think this is an extremely valuable insight and should be explored.  I was very disheartened to see a comment elsewhere that the purpose of slutwalks was to “destigmatize promiscuity”.  Your insight here helps explain that reaction—apparently it was inconceivable to him that women’s clothes might not be a method of advertising their availability to all comers.

Comment #90: crowepps  on  07/20  at  02:55 PM

Woodrow, I wrote a post about models of heterosexuality, consent, sex work, etc.

Your response was, “Blah blah blah, rape consent toxic models of dating, sure, but WHAT ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE SO RUDE SOMETIMES WHEN THEY SAY NO TO GUYS?  ISN’T THAT THE REAL PROBLEM?”

Answer: No.

Also, if men aren’t telling us that we’re saying no too firmly, they’re telling us that we aren’t saying it enough.  No matter how women phrase “no”, they’re wrong.  So instead of assuming the worst of people—-which is what you said makes someone “sad”, making you an incredibly sad person, Woodrow—-how about you assume that the women having this discussion actually aren’t a bunch of hooligans who can’t act right?  Why not extend that benefit of the doubt, instead of concern trolling in order to shut down a discussion about more important issues that just so happen to make you uncomfortable?

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  02:56 PM

Benquo, the first to use “polite” was WRF and it was in this sentence:
Certainly “no” is sufficient but being given a reason is polite.
So, yes, his starting point WAS to say that a firm no is impolite and that strangers who want to shag us deserve better as a matter of, and again I quote, “a human being deserving some basic respect”. All the “fuck off, creep” stuff was a red herring he brought in later in an ineffective attempt to sound a bit less like a jerk.

Comment #92: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  02:57 PM

The discussion on whether it’s polite and expected that a woman give a reason for rejecting an advance reminds me that standard training for salereps includes ‘dealing with objections’.  Salesreps love it when you give a reason to reject a sale because then they are trained to knock down each of your objections, one after another, until the customer is convinced.  Nothing’s worse to a haggler than an unadorned ‘no’ because they’ve got no lever to work with.

The requiring a reason for a rejection reminds me of the old joke “We’ve established what you are and are just haggling about the price”.  Requiring a reason establishes that the proposition/rejection is a transaction where haggling about price and availability is standard.

Comment #93: Nutella  on  07/20  at  02:58 PM

There is an onus on women to be polite at all times, in all interactions. Aggressive men angling for a date, a number, a hook-up do not accept a polite rejection as a a real rejection; it’s just an invitation to push harder. So when you chastise a woman for not being polite to the men who approach her you’re berating her for not using a system that fails in her objective, being left alone, and benefits the aggressor’s, being able to bully their victim perhaps to the point that it gets them some tail. If you want to keep with the commerce metaphors, it’s like harassing someone for not buying Bob’s tires when that person has already had four blowouts on Bob’s tires.

Comment #94: scrumby  on  07/20  at  03:01 PM

The buying/selling thing also (as so many guys have found over the decades without the discovery changing patriarchy or rape culture one whit) poisons even relationships that are or would be otherwise based on enthusiastic consent. Among other things, the milk is supposed to sit there on the shelf to be bought by someone who offers the right price, not jump into your shopping cart (unless you specifically went to the supermarket where part of the charm is products choosing you pre-emptively).

In fact, I sorta think that the “enthusiastic consent” terminology still has the problem of assuming one person as the proposer, the other as the decider, rather than some kind of dance in which both are partners. But I don’t know if that’s important or fixable.

Comment #95: paul  on  07/20  at  03:09 PM

Excellent post. Have you done a post on Cosmo magazine. Nice article there on how to Outsmart a Bitch. WTH?

Comment #96: pitbullgirl65  on  07/20  at  03:13 PM

Plus, WRF missed the entire fucking point, which was that saying “I’m taken” is in and of itself kind of degrading, ESPECIALLY when it isn’t true. When I say “sorry, I’m taken,” what I’m saying is not, “I’m an individual with personal preferences, and my preference at this time is not to fuck you.” What I’m saying is, “too late, someone else already owns me.”

And too often I have found that “I’m taken” is the ONLY thing remotely effective in deterring a certain kind of guy. And too often I have found that “I’m taken” isn’t even enough—it’s just another challenge for the guy to prove he’s a better “buyer.”

Comment #97: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  03:16 PM

93: Thanks for pointing that out.

The exact quote was “Certainly no is sufficient but a reason is polite.” Woodrowfan also revised in 60, including “I’m not interested” in the class of responses he considers polite. That’s still a grade more accommodating than “No,” but Woodrowfan seems to have at least agreed that “No” is not rude. At this point the argument is about very fine gradations of meaning.

Alison in 64 defended “fuck off, creep” as okay if she’s in a bad mood, so it’s not a complete straw man.

I do think that “A is rude, B is polite” can be meant in lots of different ways, it seems like some people heard it as “You MUST do B and MUST NOT do A.” Maybe some people do mean that. I wouldn’t.

Comment #98: Benquo  on  07/20  at  03:17 PM

(In other words, me as a person with the right to decide who accesses my body never even enters the conversation. It’s all some meta-conversation between two men: the one who owns the ladybiz—whether or not he is present, or even exists—and the one who wants to own the ladybiz.)

Comment #99: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  03:18 PM

94: I think that’s another case where the specifics matter a lot. If I really did have one objection, and it could be addressed, then that’s great! “I would love to buy this lamp, but it’s 6 iniches too short.” “Here, have a look at a taller one!”

But when salespeople try to “pin down” targets who aren’t ready to write up a comprehensive list of what they don’t like, it’s rude and excessively manipulative.

I imagine there are guys who try to do the same thing to women: “Not interested? What about me don’t you like?” Now she feels uncomfortable insulting the guy, so she gives an abbreviated list which he tries to argue her out of or “fix”, and then says something to the effect of “you have no more objections, so now you *have* to accept me”.

Is that a thing that actually happens often?

Comment #100: Benquo  on  07/20  at  03:25 PM

Banquo at 99: It’s in comment 31. I cut and pasted it. I am doing so again:
Certainly “no” is sufficient but being given a reason is polite.

I have no idea why you are “correcting” my quote to an incorrect one that means the same thing, but it is irksome.

Comment #101: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  03:27 PM

Is that a thing that actually happens often?

ARGH YES BENQUO THIS IS A THING THAT HAPPENS OFTEN AND WE HAVE SAID SO MULTIPLE TIMES RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT WE WRITE OR IS IT IN SOME KIND OF ESTROGEN INVISIBLE INK FUCKING HELL

Comment #102: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  03:29 PM

This is a great post, Amanda.

I want to say something on the woodrowfan kerfufle. First of all, in general I think I have liked what I’ve seen of Woodrowfan’s other posts—if this is the Woodrowfan who is a Woodrow historian? I think the problem he is having is that he simply doesn’t imagine male sexual approaches as a kind of gauntlet that women run all the time, not only daily but as someone explained upthread almost minute by minute when you are walking down some blocks.

Woodrow’s version of the male approach is some guy approaching you at a cocktail party and politely expressing interest: crowded room, clearly partying people, potential for light flirtation leading to something more.  Perhaps its at the dinner table and you are already on a date?  Context is everything. Sure, I wouldn’t tell some cute guy “fuck off” if he expresses some polite interest in me under these circumstances.  You might say that the circumstance already is socialized and his approach is already contextually appropriate.


But the experiences actual women have are quite different.  You might be hit on ten times a day. You might be approached for sex by some drunken bum who has pissed his pants but still feels entitled (he’s buying) to shout “what’s your problem girly? you too good for me?” You might have guys hang out the window simply shouting “hey, love those boobs!”  Woodrow you probably haven’t had a guy honk at you and then back the car up to try to pick you up? I have!

My point, and the point others have made here, is that Woodrowfan’s experience of trying to pick up women and/or feelign threatened are not at all representative of women’s experiences of being picked up.  When a guy approaches you out of the blue, in a grocery store, on the street, late at night his interest in sex/dating you and your interest have probably already diverged. You don’t owe that person any kind of courtesy because he’s not expressing any kind of courtesy to you. You don’t owe him some kind of “recognition of your common humanity” because he’s not respecting your human right to simply go about your day unmolested by a complete stranger’s fantasy of your sexual availability.

aimai

Comment #103: aimai  on  07/20  at  03:29 PM

102: I forgot the quote was right there in your comment. It was a strange and silly thing for me to do. No disrespect was intended, I just got distracted for a moment and didn’t recheck before hitting post.

It would have annoyed me too if someone did it to me. I will try not to do it again. I’m sorry.

Comment #104: Benquo  on  07/20  at  03:31 PM

I agree that Hermione is way out of Ron’s league in some ways, but it is she who had her eye on him for quite a while in the books, and was just waiting for him to pull his head out of his arse and recognize it. though it is kinda funny that you take the same trope of “getting what you’re worth” to say she basically married down and he should’ve stayed in shape if he wanted to be worthy of her.

meh, love’s a capricious lil shit and follows its own logic

Comment #105: shade  on  07/20  at  03:32 PM

103: I wanted to make sure I’m hearing what you’re *actually saying* and not distorting it through my own preconceptions and biases. I restated it in my own words so that you or someone else could correct me if I misconstrued something.

It seems you heard me as doubting the validity of your experiences, which was not my intention at all.

Comment #106: Benquo  on  07/20  at  03:35 PM

102: In my partial defense whenever I try to select text on this page my web browser goes haywire, so copying and pasting was not an option.

Also, you misspelled my username when you could have just copied and pasted that. Are we even now?

Comment #107: Benquo  on  07/20  at  03:37 PM

I had a conversation with my mom a few years back in which she lamented the rise of so-called “Girl Power,” in which girls were encouraged to claim power by withholding sex or demanding respect before they “gave it away.”  She said it was such a limited idea of what female power meant, that you aren’t really powerful if all you can do is say yes or no when someone asks.  Plus, that sort of power only accrues to attractive women, and only for a while, whereas qualities like intelligence, intuition, integrity, determination, creativity, or discipline, are much more valuable and can last a lifetime.  “Setting your price higher” is not empowerment—not being for sale is. 

That said, I still find it hilarious that my great-aunt used to tell my mom and her sisters and female cousins: “Sit on it or sell it, but don’t give it away.”

Comment #108: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  03:37 PM

@109

Yeah, plenty of sayings make the deal clear, like “Sit on it or sell it, but don’t give it away.” and “Why should he buy the cow if he can get the milk for free?”.

Comment #109: Nutella  on  07/20  at  03:48 PM

So I take the risk and act like a bitch because that’s the only way to get rid of some of these guys.  Of course I’ll be judged by assholes like you if I’m too bitchy, and I will be judged by other assholes (possibly including you) if I am too polite and then can’t shake the jerk.

Comment #35: bananacat on 07/20 at 12:47 PM

Ha! You’re either a rude bitch or you lead them on, right? Surely there’s some tight-wire position of perfect balance but damned if I’ve ever been able to find it. Skipping polite and going straight for bitch just saves time.

Comment #110: snobographer  on  07/20  at  03:51 PM

Amanda’s only making explicit what is implicit in every piece of popular culture dealing with women. Its basically the entire theme of all of Jane Austen—from the line ” A man with a large fortune must be in want of a wife” to all the books. Unmarried women who had no personal fortune had one shot at making a good marriage—they sold their looks and breeding and sexuality and reproductive abilities for financial and social security.  Trading sexuality (or worse, sexuality and reproduction) without “getting” marriage in return was socially fatal.  Men traded money and social status to gain access to these things (to buy them).  When the economic or social valences were changed—when the woman had the wealth then the man in the stories is in the position of a supplicant and he does as he is ordered even to marrying a woman he doesn’t want to marry.

In her book “Law of Desire,” a study of temporary marriage (sig’eh) in Iran refers to a phrase that is used to mean that a woman’s very genitals are being “rented” when she has sex.

Comment #111: aimai  on  07/20  at  03:55 PM

Comment #106: shade —EXACTLY.

I really don’t understand people who (rightly) complain that men are assholes if they leave their wives/girlfriends because they “let themselves go”...and then turn around and claim that someone like Hermione is “too good” for someone like Ron (middle-aged or young version).  Double standard, much?

Plus, is it really that hard to understand that some people value a partner’s loyalty/caring/humor/intelligence/whatever more highly than his/her sex appeal?  Particularly so after a decade+ of marriage?  Furthermore, we all like what we like, sexually speaking.  It’s not anyone’s place to judge what another finds attractive.

And love does not necessarily equal sex.  WTF.

Comment #112: Kirjava  on  07/20  at  03:56 PM

Oh, I wanted to add one more thing.

You can’t understand the buying/selling thing without acknowledging that female sexuality is generally represented as something that can be used up or diminished after first use, or after aging.  This makes the notion that women are “selling” and men are “buying” that much more complex. Because if women were merely “selling” sexuality while men were buying it with more/better sex the situation would be pretty egalitarian. That’s Amanda’s enthusiastic consent model in which sex is traded for sex/joy for joy/pleasure for pleasure. Or we might think of the two parties being so evenly matched that neither has power over the other.

But historically and culturally speaking women and men are using different currency in this joint transaction. Women are seen as selling sex itself, or their whole bodies/lives when those are believed to depreciate over time and with use.  While men are understood to be buying outright with money, or trading money and position (things that appreciate over time) for the privilige of what we in the biz call “usufruct.”  When a woman “gives it up” to a man and then ages/gets fat or is considered a slut the value of what she has sold goes down and the buyer gets disgruntled.  When a woman’s value increases and she can keep demanding more and more rewards she “wins” socially, but if society doesn’t agree with her husband’s valuation of her he’s considered “pussy whipped” and if she sells to more than her husband (has lovers) she has “cheated” on him and cheated him out of his ownership of her sexuality.  Her sexuality desirability is considered compromised by her use of it for her own purposes.  While his sexuality is never at risk and he is never considered to have diminished his desirability unless he turns into a seller and lets her buy him/feminize him by setting the terms of the sale.

aimai

aimai

Comment #113: aimai  on  07/20  at  04:03 PM

Has anybody else been hearing this new het male whine entering the mainstream that heterosexual men are societally shamed for their natural sexuality? Their natural sexuality being to feel entitled to commodify the fuck out of female bodies? I think the last person I heard say this crap was that idiot Piers Morgan, but it’s been coming up with increasing frequency. It’s like the people subjected to this sexuality (women) don’t even exist as far as having any say in the matter. And how ridiculous is it to say het male sexuality is societally shamed when it’s the default state of sexuality in every cultural outlet. It’s not like straight dudes are in danger of being put into burkas or consistently blamed for their own rapes any time soon.

Comment #114: snobographer  on  07/20  at  04:19 PM

Sex is a commodity. It always has been and always will be. No amount of pretty lies will ever change that.

Comment #115: CTD  on  07/20  at  04:32 PM

Benquo: I live a 10 minute walk away from an ice place where I go often to get a small bit of cherry-flavored no-sugar stress relief. 

I have never made this walk without a guy saying something to me as I walk by.

I’m so sick of men assuming women’s beliefs about the world are assumed to be hysteria until proven otherwise.

Comment #116: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:33 PM

Benquo: I live a 10 minute walk away from an ice place where I go often to get a small bit of cherry-flavored no-sugar stress relief. 

I have never made this walk without a guy saying something to me as I walk by.

I’m so sick of men assuming women’s beliefs about the world are assumed to be hysteria until proven otherwise.

Comment #117: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:33 PM

It’s such a low opinion of men.  I mean, most of the guys I know like having sex, and are often thinking about having sex, and yet they are also totally able to relate to women as fellow human beings without viewing them solely as sexual objects—even women who they find sexually attractive!  I mean, who are these guys who can only relate to women as if they were sexual predators or wanted to be?  Sure, I know a couple guys like that (not ones I’m friends with) but it’s certainly not the default.  Seriously, we used to expect men to keep it in their pants and exercise a little self-control, and now it’s like even that is too much to ask.

Comment #118: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  04:35 PM

Ugh, sorry to have jumped on you, Benquo.  But really, if you find yourself asking if women really, truly mean it when they say they experience X, I highly recommend not doing so.  Instead, step back and say, “I’m going to experiment with believing them first instead of making them prove it to me.”  Marinate in what they said the first time they said it.  You’d be surprised how much of a difference that makes.

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:37 PM

@CTD #116 - You mean women. Just say it.

Comment #120: snobographer  on  07/20  at  04:38 PM

Kir, women are socialized strongly not to let themselves go, because women aren’t entitled to love.  That results in dramatic differences in things like weight and plastic surgery—-women are thinner on average and get more plastic surgery.  They also wear make-up, spend more on hair and clothes, and statistically, do more for their partners than average.  In other words, all the statistics show that women work harder on making themselves lovable.  I don’t particularly have a problem with this myself.  I don’t think women should give up and let themselves go.  I just think men should have to work as hard at it.  The result of men trying as hard as women would be a society where people comb their hair, keep clean, look after their own health and care about their partners.

Comment #121: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:44 PM

Kir, women are socialized strongly not to let themselves go, because women aren’t entitled to love.  That results in dramatic differences in things like weight and plastic surgery—-women are thinner on average and get more plastic surgery.  They also wear make-up, spend more on hair and clothes, and statistically, do more for their partners than average.  In other words, all the statistics show that women work harder on making themselves lovable.  I don’t particularly have a problem with this myself.  I don’t think women should give up and let themselves go.  I just think men should have to work as hard at it.  The result of men trying as hard as women would be a society where people comb their hair, keep clean, look after their own health and care about their partners.

Comment #122: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:44 PM

Interesting, CTD.  Can you explain to me then why it’s only women that have this “sex” that is a commodity to sell?  Because clearly women are selling and men are buying.  I do believe men have genitals and can provide sex to women, and yet somehow they’re the ones buying.  Explain, please.

Comment #123: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:47 PM

117, 118, 120: Amanda, if you and MissPrism both heard the same thing in what I said, then it was there, whether I intended it or not, and I need to be clearer next time.

I’m assuming that “Does that sort of thing actually happen?” was the problem - is that correct? Do you think saying “Is that an example of the sort of thing you mean?” would have been clearer and more constructive?

Comment #124: Benquo  on  07/20  at  04:50 PM

I want to print out Nutella’s comment @94 and frame it. Although I will say nothing shuts down an asshole salesperson than saying, “I won’t buy your product because you’re an over-aggressive dick,” or “I won’t do business with you because I’ve heard how shitty your company is.”

Sometimes I love being a bitch.

I’ve discovered through my own* and friends’ experiences that saying “I’m taken” opens a potentially worse can of worms. First, it gives Nice Guys hope that they’ll have a chance sometime in the future, and no one wants to go through that bullshit, trust me. Second, people suffering erotomania will only be MORE encouraged by the existence of a partner, since their disorder is characterized by obsessing over people they don’t have a chance in hell with.

*The sad thing is that I have never used that excuse in this country, but one guy who asked me out ages ago got me confused with a woman who did use that excuse. He went around with the attitude that he could totally have me if I were available. I meanwhile thought he was one of the most revolting people I’ve ever met.

To answer Naquo’s question if hagglin happens often: yes, it does. There have been many instances in my life where the reaction to my rejection is to demand an explanation, followed up with the implicit argument that I have no right to date men I find attractive. Your implicit claim that women are irrational comes from exactly the same place, the idea that bitches ain’t shit.

Comment #125: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  04:54 PM

The discussion on whether it’s polite and expected that a woman give a reason for rejecting an advance reminds me that standard training for salereps includes ‘dealing with objections’.  Salesreps love it when you give a reason to reject a sale because then they are trained to knock down each of your objections, one after another, until the customer is convinced.  Nothing’s worse to a haggler than an unadorned ‘no’ because they’ve got no lever to work with.

This times a million.  I can’t tell you how many times this happened to me when I was approached by random strangers while going about my daily business.  If I lie and say I have a boyfriend/husband, then he’ll either tell me that my boyfriend won’t mind me getting some side action, or that I should leave my boyfriend because this random stranger is obviously a better choice.  I’ve even lied and said I was a lesbian (sorry about the appropriation! I don’t do that anymore), but then he tells me that I just need to try being with a man to test if I’m truly a lesbian, or he wants a threesome with me and another woman.

If I tell him outright that I simply do not think I would enjoy sex with him, there have literally been men who insisted I just needed to give them a chance in bed so they could prove how good they are.  When I insist that I am not physically attracted to him and that I can’t enjoy sex with someone I am simply not attracted to, he will insist that his magical super speshul penis will make up for all of that if only I would give him a chance.  Or occasionally that he’ll just go home and kill himself because I won’t fuck him.  Never, not a single time, has any man said “tell me what you don’t like about me so I can change it”.  I wouldn’t be interested in that man anyway, but that is what is expected of women when they face rejection.  Instead, these men insist that I owe them a chance, although I know that they wouldn’t give me the same chance if I weren’t conventionally pretty*.  And yes, this has actually happened to me, multiple times.  What is considered acceptable really depends on where you live and it was like culture shock when I moved away from that place.

So yeah, giving a reason is frequently counter-productive.

*There seems to be some non-linear relationship between conventional attractiveness and how entitled doodz feel to fuck you.  They are often intimidated by the very prettiest girls/women, but seem to think that slightly less-than-perfect women will be glad to even have the attention.  Then if you get even uglier to the point of being “average” they feel slightly less entitled.  As I gained weight I got a lot more random strangers hitting on me, and I also noticed more unwanted attention when I was wearing sweatpants and had greasy hair.  But once I got to a certain point, the attention waned slightly (although it never goes away completely).

Comment #126: bananacat  on  07/20  at  04:56 PM

Edit: banquo. I knew I shouldn’t post from an iPhone.

Comment #127: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  04:57 PM

well, what?  @ 98 & 100—spot on.  And to elaborate on the “no thanks, I’m taken” line, in my experience it’s often followed up with, “Yeah, but you’re not married!”  You know, because if your man hasn’t made it official that you belong to him for the rest of your life, well then, your goods are still on the market, and that “no” doesn’t really count.  Like the post @ 100 said, it’s really a transaction between two men, and you’re just there to supply the warm body.

Comment #128: Secret Agent Norman  on  07/20  at  04:59 PM

Not to mention, women are socialized to keep up their appearance because they learn early that their appearance is the most important quality they have and if they are not beautiful they are not lovable.  (Sure, this ends up not being true in lots of individual circumstances, but it’s not the cultural message.)

There is also a difference between saying that people should take care of themselves, be thoughtful of their partners, and not get sloppy and complacent, and saying that a woman had better keep up her looks or she’s going to get dumped for a younger, prettier model.  One is based on respect for the other person and the second is based on fear.

Comment #129: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  05:01 PM

I imagine there are guys who try to do the same thing to women: “Not interested? What about me don’t you like?” Now she feels uncomfortable insulting the guy, so she gives an abbreviated list which he tries to argue her out of or “fix”, and then says something to the effect of “you have no more objections, so now you *have* to accept me”.

Is that a thing that actually happens often?

More often than you can possibly imagine, until you experience it for yourself.

Comment #130: bananacat  on  07/20  at  05:02 PM

I also like:

“I have a boyfriend.”

“Must not be too serious if he let you go out alone”/“Well, he shouldn’t have left you alone”/other variant thereof.

Comment #131: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  05:07 PM

“don’t actually enjoy the paid-for sex in and of itself, and are mainly shoring up their masculine bona fides by proving they can buy and control women”  That one link is the best you can do to support this?  More citations needed to convince me of that extraordinary assertion.

Comment #132: elpathos  on  07/20  at  05:09 PM

*There seems to be some non-linear relationship between conventional attractiveness and how entitled doodz feel to fuck you.  They are often intimidated by the very prettiest girls/women, but seem to think that slightly less-than-perfect women will be glad to even have the attention. 

That’s a good point. They may not be able to afford a Mercedes, but they’ve sure as hell earned that Toyota.

Comment #133: junk science  on  07/20  at  05:09 PM

Can you explain to me then why it’s only women that have this “sex” that is a commodity to sell?

Amanda, I can’t. Because I never said that. It’s something you asserted.

The commodity status of sex is independent of the gender of the people involved. It’s a commodity between gay men just as much as it is between heterosexual people.

 

Comment #134: CTD  on  07/20  at  05:09 PM

Yup, Kit-Kat! And remember, “with other women” counts as “alone”, as in “Hey, are are you three alone?”

Comment #135: MissPrism  on  07/20  at  05:10 PM

@126/keshmeshi:

Slightly off-topic, but true story: A few years ago, my mother went into a car dealership to check out some models of SUVs for the company of which she was the CFO and to negotiate a multiple-car discount.  The company rules were that all company vehicles had to be red (and have the company logo on the side).  A salesman approached my mom, who asked him if a specific model came in red.  He responded yes, and then added, “So you just bring your husband on down and we’ll get you into one of these cars right away.”  My mother wisely left, rather than say what she was thinking, which might have gotten her arrested, and later called the dealership manager to explain how he’d lost not one, but six sales because of his Neanderthal salesman.

Comment #136: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  05:11 PM

MissPrism—so true!  I was once out with about a dozen girlfriends, and someone wanted to know why such pretty ladies were all alone.  Huh what?

Comment #137: Kit-Kat  on  07/20  at  05:12 PM

135: CTD -  Not as much. Stop kidding yourself. And never for straight men. Because…?

Comment #138: snobographer  on  07/20  at  05:16 PM

Woodrowfan, I know what you want.  You want more civility between the genders; you want men and women to be able to approach each other without having to carry their “hey-I’m-pissed-off-don’t-stand-on-my-blindside” armor around all the time.  That’s what I want too.  But what women are used to is that their every characteristic and bodily trait and article of clothing and personal preference and last drop of blood is perpetually analyzed, by themselves and by other women and by men, in terms of what it says about their position on the open market.  Upscale or downscale?  High or low maintenance?  High rent or low rent?  Is the guy going to feel that he’s entitled to brag the next day, or is he going to regret having woken up next to a skagg?  Women have to evaluate themselves in this way, and have to know that others are evaluating them in this way, constantly.  And I really do mean at every waking moment.  That has an effect on the disposition.  You can’t expect to be given much leeway by people who are granted none.

Comment #139: bekabot  on  07/20  at  05:16 PM

I thought of another example of negotiation.  I was riding a bus when I overheard one side of a very loud phone conversation.  There was a boy apparently trying to convince a girl to either have sex or to do it without a condom.  She was apparently hesitant, and he actually fucking said “But don’t you want to have kids someday?  Why not now?”  My guess is that she simply wasn’t interested and used the “I don’t want to get pregnant” card to try to convince him, because his poor little fee-fees might be hurt if she simply said outright that she wasn’t interested.  I don’t know if they had had sex before or they had made out or had never had any contact, but that really doesn’t matter.  She didn’t want to, he asked why, she gave a polite answer, and he wouldn’t accept it.  This shit starts young.  If I’m being very generous he could have been a very young-looking 20 year-old, but a more realistic estimate would be 15 or 16 (which is probably why he was riding the bus).  So again, giving a reason doesn’t really help.

Comment #140: bananacat  on  07/20  at  05:24 PM

‘No, thank you’ is polite.  ‘Why not?’ is RUDE.  “Give me a reason’ is RUDE.  Responding to that rudeness by giving a reason results in the asker arguing that the reason is inadequate or unjustified or stupid.  Would anybody claim that a person who is saying no to a request to borrow their car, let someone flop on their couch or loan someone a hundred bucks has to give a reason?  The person of whom any request is made has zero obligation to say anything beyond ‘No’.  The thank you itself is a gracious extra.

Comment #141: crowepps  on  07/20  at  05:42 PM

A reason is not polite.  A reason is an invitation to defeat the reason.  I have a friend with boundary issues, and one of the biggest things I’ve had to help her to learn is that she can simply say, “No.”  No reason need be given.  Whatever’s being asked for, it’s hers, and nobody is entitled to anything but knowledge of what she is doing.

“No, thank you.”  “I’m not interested.”  That’s it.  Don’t invite from people you don’t want things from.

Woodrowfan: I was brought up the way you were, and all I can say is: women are human beings, that they want good sex in exactly the same ridiculous variation of levels of desire and types of desire as men, and everything you’ve been taught about differences between the sexes is pretty much false.

Comment #142: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  05:44 PM

@137:

My mother runs a plumbing company, so she deals with that kind of bullshit all the time. Sales reps will call her and ask to speak to the person in charge of purchasing. She’ll say that that person is her. Inevitably there will be a pause. Then, “Is there a man in charge of purchasing I could speak to?” Presumably the sales rep is thinking, “Haha, silly secretary must have gotten confused.”

And of course my mother always hangs up at that point.

Comment #143: Triplanetary  on  07/20  at  05:46 PM

I once had a roommate who was unkempt, self-pitying and grandiose. The thing I’ll remember him for, however, is how he woke me up one night after I’d been in bed two or three hours already, sound asleep, hauled me out to the living with a terse, “We need to talk,” and proceeded to ramble at me for at least twenty minutes. The end result was that he wanted to tell me he loved me, and he talked about fairy tales and wishes and….and….why he was a great guy. And it occurred to me he was trying to convince me that he had earned me, somehow, that I was a prize. He talked about his fairy tale——his fairy tale. Apparently I was to be some kind of passive thing in this fairy tale, with no fairy tale of my own. The fact that he ‘loved’ me——if he loved me, why didn’t he let me sleep?——meant that he had decided on me and I was just supposed to…...cooperate. ‘Love’ for him did not mean care, cherish, be considerate of, or especially kind to. “Love” meant….I want you, therefore I should get you. It’s like Faith saying (geek alert!) “Want. Take. Have.” The carton of milk analogy is just eerily perfect.

  I had still another guy do this to me but in writing, and it amounted to a guy basically saying, “I want you. Give it up.” He kind of offered me a price in return for turning myself over, in the form of his resume——and his long list of wants, desires, wishes, and hopes….for what he wanted in a girlfriend, which he felt I fit. It was the eeriest feeling. Whatever makes a person that person, they valued that, but not to the extent they still didn’t regard women as rebellious pieces of meat with vocal cords.

The thing about telling some guy that you have an owner is….then he can just feel like he can steal from the other guy. Because that’s basically what they view the ‘boyfriend, husband’ thing. Which is why I’m skeptical when people ask about some loser, “Don’t you have a wife, a mother, a daughter, a sister?” because that’s just endorsing his view that his possessions are sacred, while yours are improperly secured, so it’s okay to take them.  Women, of course, can not own themselves, like the commenter above alluded to when the they cited the guy who approached a bunch of women with, “Ladies are you alone?” Meaning that there was no designed human—-a man—-there.

Comment #144: ginmar  on  07/20  at  05:59 PM

“the Sad Unfuckable John myth”

You really believe that there aren’t any men out there who can’t find a sexual partner?  Sheesh.

Comment #145: B405  on  07/20  at  06:02 PM

I’m 61, and so have weathered a half century of random strangers who were male and felt entitled to my attention (and sex organs) by my near proximity in public places—night and day—in a number of American cities and states, several countries, and two continents.

(Yes, it started that early, and has continued to this month.)

I found that a seemingly polite (but actually disinterested) “No, thank you,” discouraged many (I wrote a guest post to that effect on Hollaback http://www.ihollaback.org/blog/2010/06/18/guest-post-judy-browns-take-on-what-works-in-fending-off-the-harassers/)

But appending a reason to the “No, thank you,” actually prolonged the torture more than the bare bones “No, thank you.”

Because my polite “No” evidentally didn’t mean “no” to a frightening segment of those men over the last half century.

Who then persistantly employed other means that included pestering, insults, following, harassing, bargaining, stalking, and physical assault—a drunken London man on the street actually picked up my arm and bit me, when I tried to escape from him (while in the company of three other women!) 

Add in one date who felt three dates had bought him sex, and “jokingly” threatened to rape me, if I didn’t pay up. And another who who applied physical pressure, and several who “chased” me around a room after I’d made it clear I didn’t want to have sex in the office/on a date, etc.

 

 

 

Comment #146: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  06:06 PM

“Obviously [Twisty Faster is] talking on an experimental plane that is interesting for provoking thought but doesn’t have a whole lot of bearing on the lives of those of us who aren’t playing footsie with a separationist kind of thing.”  I would go farther than that, and say her ideas are counterproductive and harmful.  Saying patriarchy treats women as if they’ve automaticall pre-consented to sex?  Fine.  Saying that because of this, women can’t meaningfully consent to sex?  Eurgh.  This discounts the experience of women who actually do desire and choose to have sex with men, and erases what should be a bright line between rape and consent.

I also find her contempt for all flavors of sex-positive feminism to be pretty toxic. She’d probably accuse this blog of being “funfeminist” for defending sexual pleasure, and for saying that men can be good feminists. It’s very irritating to see a “feminist” blog sniping at things like SlutWalk that are making change, however small, in the real world.  Sorry for the digression—there are good ideas among the bad ones, but it’s always seemed like too much trouble to me to pick them out.

Comment #147: Betoma  on  07/20  at  06:08 PM

Thanks, Benquo @125.  And yeah, I think your other examples of how to ask would have sounded better.  I think that 95% of men asking questions online are asking in bad faith—-they are condescendingly implying women don’t know their own experiences.  And so the 5% get rounded up.

Comment #148: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:08 PM

Women, of course, can not own themselves

And of course this brings up the issue of last names.  While I certainly respect women who choose to change their names when married for whatever reason, I decided long ago that I would keep my own name.  And, I shit you not, one man actually told me that it’s not my name anyway and that I’m only borrowing from my dad.  He said that my dad owns this name and someday I’ll use a name it is owned by another man, my husband.  I can’t have a name in my own right; I’m only borrowing from one man or another.  It doesn’t matter that I’ve had this last name all my life and it has been part of my identity; it’s still just on loan from my father.

Comment #149: bananacat  on  07/20  at  06:09 PM

@B405, no, I believe you exist.

Comment #150: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  06:10 PM

Never, not a single time, has any man said “tell me what you don’t like about me so I can change it”.  I wouldn’t be interested in that man anyway, but that is what is expected of women when they face rejection.

I remember the first time I was rejected, I obsessed for weeks that it was my small chest.  In fact, it probably was. But then I decided that I didn’t care enough to “fix” it, which probably helped set me on a path towards feminist healthiness and realizing that there’s no reason to think that my job in life is to fit some idealized version of the perfect woman.  And then I learned that actually, if you start to treat dating less like a market and more like a meeting of the minds and bodies situation, yo’ure much happier for it.

Comment #151: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:13 PM

“I really don’t understand people who (rightly) complain that men are assholes if they leave their wives/girlfriends because they “let themselves go”...and then turn around and claim that someone like Hermione is “too good” for someone like Ron.  Double standard, much?”

That’s different, because…because…well, just because, alright?!?!?

Comment #152: B405  on  07/20  at  06:17 PM

Of course there are men and women out there who can’t find a sex partner.  The reasons why are unique to each person and, frankly, entirely their problem.  No one else is OBLIGATED to have sex with them.

Comment #153: crowepps  on  07/20  at  06:18 PM

Inevitably, there’s an idiot (or more than one moron) who pretends that the “sad unfuckable John” myth isn’t a myth because he knows one (or is one.)

Which is, of course, arguing against a straw woman: The Sad Unfuckable John myth is, of course,  the myth that women should be sold because there are men who can have them no other way, and so women must save this character.

But those arguing against that strawwoman, somehow never support a Sad Unfuckable Jane myth and straw woman. Where are the brothels moron would set up for those poor dears?

There are any number of unattractive men (see sit coms) who manage to have attractive wives, lovers and girlfriends.

And the customers for prostitutes constitute rather, men who want to control women by purchase.

Comment #154: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  06:18 PM

You really believe that there aren’t any men out there who can’t find a sexual partner?

I do believe that.

I don’t believe, as you seem to, that they are entitled to a sex partner.

I believe men should be treated like women. If someone won’t have sex with you willingly, that is your problem.  The world does not owe you a vagina to prong.  Women who can’t get laid are told to hit the gym, develop some interests, learn to dress better, and be more charming in person.  Men should be told the same thing.  Instead, they’re pat on the head, pitied and offered opportunities to pay in cash.  That’s bullshit.  If men want love and attention, they should think about it like women have to—-what’s in it for someone else to love me?  Think of it like you would getting a friend or a job.  You have to convince them, not just buy them off.

Comment #155: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:20 PM

What about the sad unfuckable women?  Are men obligated to have pity sex with them, lest they be forced to pay for it?  No, of course not.  They’re women so they’re expected to make themselves fuckable by any means necessary, up to including surgery.  That’s where the double standard comes in.  Sad, unfuckable men are never told to take a shower or become bulimic or wear make-up or buy this magazine that will tell you how to become more fuckable.  In their case it’s just those shallow bitches being uppity enough to think they’re entitled to standards.

Comment #156: bananacat  on  07/20  at  06:21 PM

Bet @148: Actually, Jill and I have met in person and get along great. She’s praised this blog and Feministing in the past.  I wouldn’t mistake her philosophical envelope-pushing for actual meanness towards other women and especially not other feminists, and super especially not other feminists who really think about feminism and work on important feminist goals.

Comment #157: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:23 PM

133:  “That one link is the best you can do to support this?”

Amen to that. Talk about seeing only what you want to see.

Comment #158: B405  on  07/20  at  06:23 PM

And as for the man who claimed your last name wasn’t your own, but your father’s—the same could be said of him. His name, not his own, but his father’s, although of course, I doubt he’d think of it that.

I have younger friends who gave their children the mother’s last name, because the dad has been going by a pen name for several decades (neither his own or his father’s.)

Comment #159: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  06:27 PM

“the Sad Unfuckable John myth is, of course,  the myth that women should be sold because there are men who can have them no other way, and so women must save this character.”

Actually, *that* is the straw-man argument.  I doubt that prostitutes go into that line of work because they believe they must save the character of desperate men. 

“But those arguing against that strawwoman, somehow never support a Sad Unfuckable Jane myth and straw woman. “

I didn’t know I was obliged to.  And it would never occur to me that someone would be obtuse enough to deny that there are women out there who can’t find a sexual partner.  I mean, really!

“There are any number of unattractive men (see sit coms) who manage to have attractive wives, lovers and girlfriends.”

You do know that sitcoms aren’t real, right?  I mean, that’s not a controversial statement, is it?

Comment #160: B405  on  07/20  at  06:28 PM

102: In my partial defense whenever I try to select text on this page my web browser goes haywire, so copying and pasting was not an option.

So I’m NOT the only one with that problem! If possible, try a different browser.

I do think that “A is rude, B is polite” can be meant in lots of different ways, it seems like some people heard it as “You MUST do B and MUST NOT do A.” Maybe some people do mean that. I wouldn’t.

Here’s the thing, and this was alluded too a few times, but I state it more explicitly.

Women are, from a very young age, insanely socialized to be polite as absolutely all times to anyone and everyone. To any woman who has lived her whole life under this expectation “X is not polite!” absolutely translates to “You may never do X!” (Or, conversely, “The polite thing to do would be X.” = “You must do X.”).

In most cases when someone tells a woman something is/is not polite they are subtly, but (to the woman) clearly giving a command about how they feel that woman should be behaving.

As such, being told that giving a reason is “polite” RIGHT AFTER it was explained that we shouldn’t have to give reasons set everybody off. And understandably so, when you understand what the pressure on women to be polite actually is.


On top of that, was some fairly textbook Male Privilege. When the topic of these kinds of solicitations came up, he simply picture fairly benign circumstances, ones that (understandably) would not warrant the type of venom the commentors seemed to be displaying. After all, going to singles bar and then getting scandalized when s guy hit on me is just silly.

The problem is that, that was never what was going on here. Women imagined/remembered things like street harassment, over aggressive guys in bars/clubs, or the ever fun complete, random strangers approaching random, uninterested women in, say, a book store, and soliciting her for her phone number/a date/sex/whatever he felt like. And they remembered the amount of times these guys would not take “no” for an answer.

It is genuinely massively offensive to us to say we owe asshole like that anything at all. Especially something that we just finished explaining we DON’T owe them.

But, that’s what Male Privilege does. It allows men to go though their lives completely unaware of what kind of Hell many men routinely put women through. Not to mention blinding them to the pressure to be polite (even to people that don’t deserve it) that women are all put through.

Comment #161: Ruby  on  07/20  at  06:29 PM

Re: Ron and Hermione

In and of itself I don’t have a problem with people liking whoever they happen to like. (Aren’t I generous?) But I think when you’re analyzing a piece of popular fiction, it’s totally fair to criticize it for mobilizing the pernicious trope men need not put in any significant effort to earn or reward the affections of their significant others. Wouldn’t it be better to have a subtext that encourages men to strive for excellence for both their own sake and the sake of the people they love? The filmmakers would have had to have gone out of their way to slip the less helpful message of the two into the epilogue. They could have more easily given Mr. Grint the same sort of makeup and clothes as they gave the other three actors. And, while it’s true enough that Hermione may have perfectly good reasons for staying with Ron, we aren’t presented with any of those. What we are presented with is a relationship that presents rather lopsided levels of effort in terms of personal maintenance.

Comment #162: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  06:33 PM

regarding the browser issue… if you’re using internet explorer 8 make sure you have compatibility view on. it’s the button next to the address bar that looks like a broken page. That has fixed my issue with the scroll going wonky when I highlight text.

Comment #163: Tersa  on  07/20  at  06:34 PM

“Women who can’t get laid are told to hit the gym, develop some interests, learn to dress better, and be more charming in person.  Men should be told the same thing.”

You think they aren’t?  To quote the great Barney Frank, on what planet do you spend most of your time?

“Sad, unfuckable men are never told to take a shower or become bulimic or wear make-up or buy this magazine”

This thread alone contains people railing against how rumpled and dowdy Ron Weasley is, how he isn’t in as good shape or as well-dressed as his wife.  Well, what’s the obvious corollary to that?  He should make himself look better.

And what about the man who DOES lose weight, practice his conversation skills, diversify his interests, etc. etc. etc. and still can’t get anywhere?  People like Amanda Marcotte don’t believe that happens, either, for reasons I haven’t yet comprehended.

“I don’t believe, as you seem to, that they are entitled to a sex partner. “

Straw-man alert, again.  If someone were entitled to a sexual partner, they wouldn’t have to pay for it.

Comment #164: B405  on  07/20  at  06:34 PM

“But those arguing against that strawwoman, somehow never support a Sad Unfuckable Jane myth and straw woman. “

I didn’t know I was obliged to.

It’s not so much that you’re obliged to as it is that you would if you possessed a shred of intellectual honesty.

Comment #165: Triplanetary  on  07/20  at  06:38 PM

That’s actually the best research out there.  Other research is ruined by prohibitionist agendas.  That research comes from people who don’t have much of an agenda besides getting men to stop beating and raping sex workers.  If you think that’s too much of a feminazi agenda, well, I guess that’s more evidence in the pile for “johns are just misogynists who use the Sad Unfuckable stereotype to justify their behavior”.

Comment #166: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:41 PM

So,you didn’t read the post, B4?

Further evidence that you’re just a misogynist—-can’t be bothered to actually listen to a woman before responding—-and not arguing in good faith.

That vaginas are available for purchase if evidence that men are entitled in our society. Women are not offered sex for sale to assuage loneliness.

Comment #167: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:42 PM

Also, B4, a bunch of feminists challenging the status quo cannot, by definition, be used as an example of the status quo.  We tell men to shape up….because everyone else is telling ‘em that women don’t fuck you because they’re shallow bitches and that justifies buying PUA guides or just paying for sex.

Comment #168: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:43 PM

Re: B405 @ 165

This thread alone contains people railing against how rumpled and dowdy Ron Weasley is, how he isn’t in as good shape or as well-dressed as his wife.  Well, what’s the obvious corollary to that?  He should make himself look better.

Just so we’re clear, I’m criticizing the portrayal of a fictional character in a film adaptation of a previous work.

Comment #169: I, too, have an opinion!  on  07/20  at  06:45 PM

There’s also always an idiot who will write “You do know sit coms aren’t real?” to the snarky example of the fat guy/attractive wife sit com example.

The fat guy/attractive wife sit com is recycled endlessly on American TV because the fat husband/attractive wife marriage is a given in our culture, no less among male sit com producers (having written for a sit com, I can attest to that reality, as well.)

The rest of your arguments are equally specious: for instance, I never attested that there were no unattractive women lacking sex partners, just that those men who promote “the sad unfuckable John” stereotype never seem as concerned to assure the poor dears of their opportunity to buy sex.

But your comment started in a lie: that anyone here claimed there were no men so unattractive they found it it difficult to get a woman willing to give it up for free.

I have no doubt there are such men, and as for your defensiveness on the subject, well, it’s telling.

Comment #170: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  06:45 PM

“It’s not so much that you’re obliged to as it is that you would if you possessed a shred of intellectual honesty.”

Well, that clinches it:  by not taking on every single misconception about every person on Earth, I have not a shred of intellectual honesty.  Meanwhile it’s okay for the proprietors of this site to generate or propagate any nonsense belief or willful misinterpretation of a study paper as long as it fits the reader’s preconceptions.

Comment #171: B405  on  07/20  at  06:46 PM

“So,you didn’t read the post, B4? “

I read it.  And I read it again.  Frankly, I think your statement

“And of course, the reason that threads about men who buy sex blow up to epic proportions here is that there’s always a handful of guys pushing the Sad Unfuckable John myth, i.e. the belief that men who go to sex workers are just sad sacks who can’t get laid through normal means and so are forced—-because men are entitled to partner sex—-to pay for it.”

is laughably absurd, for asserting that prostitutes are in that line of work because they believe “men are entitled to sex”. 

“Women are not offered sex for sale to assuage loneliness.”

There are no male prostitutes out there?  If not, don’t blame me.

“Also, B4, a bunch of feminists challenging the status quo cannot, by definition, be used as an example of the status quo. “

Either “women are told to get in shape and men aren’t, and that’s mean!” or “women are told to get in shape, and men are too”.  I don’t care which is the status quo and which isn’t; if you think men aren’t advised to dress better, look better, etc. by anyone at all, then re-think your beliefs. 

“We tell men to shape up….because everyone else is telling ‘em that women don’t fuck you because they’re shallow bitches and that justifies buying PUA guides or just paying for sex.”

I think a person who can’t achieve a sexual encounter—for whatever the reason—has the right to pay a willing prostitute for that sexual encounter.  Other people here seem to have a real problem with the existence of prostitution.  That I find strange, but understandable.  What I find flabbergasting is the trend of blaming men who can’t achieve a non-paid sexual partner for that state of affairs.  Where did this “prostitutes are prostitutes because they believe men are entitled to sex” malarky come from?

“There’s also always an idiot who will write “You do know sit coms aren’t real?” to the snarky example of the fat guy/attractive wife sit com example.”

How is that idiotic?  It’s true, isn’t it?

“the fat husband/attractive wife marriage is a given in our culture”

Yes, there are fat and rich men with attractive wives, and fat and powerful men with attractive wives.  That doesn’t lead logically to “just because a man is fat and ugly doesn’t mean he can’t have a wife!”

Comment #172: B405  on  07/20  at  06:56 PM

And what about the man who DOES lose weight, practice his conversation skills, diversify his interests, etc. etc. etc. and still can’t get anywhere?  People like Amanda Marcotte don’t believe that happens, either, for reasons I haven’t yet comprehended.

No, we still believe you exist. I’m sorry, if even Herculean effort renders you at best a profoundly unpleasant human being, that is a horrible state of affairs. It is not, however, a state of affairs which any vagina on earth, paid or not, is obligated to address.

Prostitution as it is largely practiced in this world—the real one, not fucking HBO—is a horrible and degrading and mostly (admittedly not entirely) coerced institution. No man’s poor sad wang is worth what trafficked women and CHILDREN go through on this planet to appease them.

Comment #173: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  06:57 PM

“for instance, I never attested that there were no unattractive women lacking sex partners”

I never said you did, but go ahead and call ME “specious”.

Comment #174: B405  on  07/20  at  06:57 PM

Sex is a commodity. It always has been and always will be. No amount of pretty lies will ever change that.

Sex for the purposes of reproduction may have been, but humans have moved past that point.

On a purely biological level, sure, one can make the argument that sex is a commodity subject to negotiation, but that argument is fairly limited: a female (especially most mammals) wants to make damn sure that the male is good enough in order for her to put up the investment in offspring. A male is interested in making sure that happens, and that the offspring are his.

But humans don’t just do sex for reproduction and it’s not just since the pill that we’ve separated the two: look up the history of the herb silphium and why it’s extinct these days. And how old condoms are. We do sex for social reasons, for interacting with people that has nothing to do with either party wanting to have offspring. And because it’s a social interaction, the rules that should apply should be much closer to those of other social interactions, as Amanda mentioned. I don’t have the right to demand a friend to go out with me to a hockey game and have people support me when I get all pissy because he decided that he didn’t want to right then, or he doesn’t actually like watching hockey, or that he really isn’t my friend at all and rather drive nails into his feet than be seen with me. If I tried to make myself look more impressive so he’d want to go to a game with me, people would probably think I was nuts. And rather sad, to be honest.

If hockey magazines constantly had articles and entire issues devoted to “How to get your friends to ask you to the game”, or “How to convince some random stranger to go with you through the playoffs”, people would consider that a joke.

Yet if I’m trying to pick up a woman for sex, well, people will rush to my defense and offer advice on how to do that, or belittle the women who said no. And point me to the magazines and books that were all about that.

Comment #175: KeithM  on  07/20  at  06:59 PM

“ALWAYS A HANDFUL OF GUYS PUSHING THE SAD UNFUCKABLE JOHN MYTH .... ”

is laughably absurd, for asserting that prostitutes are in that line of work because they believe “men are entitled to sex”.  [/quote

Comment #176: stubbles  on  07/20  at  07:00 PM

is laughably absurd, for asserting that prostitutes are in that line of work because they believe “men are entitled to sex”.

No, moron. Prostitution EXISTS because men believe they are entitled to sex.

Prostitutes are mostly in that line of work because they are raped and beaten by pimps (or imprisoned by traffickers) who force them into it.

Fucking…read many many years worth of Nicholas Kristof and don’t say one more goddamn word about prostitution until you do.

Comment #177: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  07:00 PM

In #175 Another lie from B405: who has already conveniently “forgotten” his comment in #165.

Comment #178: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:00 PM

“ALWAYS A HANDFUL OF GUYS PUSHING THE SAD UNFUCKABLE JOHN MYTH .... ”

is laughably absurd, for asserting that prostitutes are in that line of work because they believe “men are entitled to sex”.

Who is asserting that prostitutes are in this line of work, again? 

Honestly, no one here has a problem believing that you can’t get laid.  The only difference is that we’re pretty happy about it.  No woman deserves you.

Comment #179: stubbles  on  07/20  at  07:01 PM

“Your comment started in a lie: that anyone here claimed there were no men so unattractive they found it it difficult to get a woman willing to give it up for free.”

What, then, does this statement mean:

“And of course, the reason that threads about men who buy sex blow up to epic proportions here is that there’s always a handful of guys pushing the Sad Unfuckable John myth, i.e. the belief that men who go to sex workers are just sad sacks who can’t get laid through normal means and so are forced—-because men are entitled to partner sex—-to pay for it. “

Is “the myth” in that line the myth that people are entitled to sex?  Fine, that is rightly called a myth.  But if that’s what’s being said here, why call it “the sad unfuckable john myth” instead of the “entitled to sex” myth?  Help me out here.

Comment #180: B405  on  07/20  at  07:02 PM

@ stubbles: every time he pops up on a thread I thank some nonexistent deity that he is STILL complaining about never getting laid. The day he gets laid is a sad day for someone somewhere.

Comment #181: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  07:02 PM

And as for the prostitutes “willingly” in the game, a large percentage were raped as children. As were most sex workers.

Comment #182: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:03 PM

“And of course, the reason that threads about men who buy sex blow up to epic proportions here is that there’s always a handful of guys pushing the Sad Unfuckable John myth, i.e. the belief that men who go to sex workers are just sad sacks who can’t get laid through normal means and so are forced—-because men are entitled to partner sex—-to pay for it.”

is laughably absurd, for asserting that prostitutes are in that line of work because they believe “men are entitled to sex”. 

There’s your problem. Amanda wasn’t talking about prostitution itself. She was talking about discussions of prostitution. Specifically, the way men will defends the practice of men going to prostitutes on the grounds that ‘they can’t get sex (which they are <u>entitled</u> to) any other way’.

Amanda’s point was that, statistically, that’s not actually the case. As shown by the research she linked to.

The motivations of the prostitutes themselves for entering that line of work was never part of what was being discussed.

Comment #183: Ruby  on  07/20  at  07:07 PM

As for B405’s reading comprehension problem: as much as you’ve tried muddy up what has been written here about the “Sad Unfuckable John” Myth, it’s still a straw man argument.

For all the very clear points, made by everyone else but you.

Comment #184: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:07 PM

“Prostitutes are mostly in that line of work because they are raped and beaten by pimps (or imprisoned by traffickers) who force them into it.”

Look:  people who traffic other people do it for a quick buck, not as some larger social point about what men are entitled to.  If you want to stop human trafficking, understand it first.


“In #175 Another lie from B405: who has already conveniently “forgotten” his comment in #165.”

Which lie would that be?

“Who is asserting that prostitutes are in this line of work, again?  “

I think we all believe that prostitutes are involved in prostitution.

Comment #185: B405  on  07/20  at  07:08 PM

Look:  people who traffic other people do it for a quick buck, not as some larger social point about what men are entitled to.  If you want to stop human trafficking, understand it first.

Which has nothing at all to do with thinking of women as saleable commodities instead of people. Nooooooope.

God damn I don’t know if you’re irretrievably stupid or appallingly evil. But either way, I hope nobody ever comes within 10 feet of you ever again in your life.

Comment #186: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  07:09 PM

I’ve been following this blog for years and finally registered.  Great posts and a great community with real discussions.

Something else that is tied up with the buyer/seller metaphor (as Amanda has pointed out several times elsewhere) is the idea that men always want sex and women never do.  I.e., men are “created” as buyers and women as sellers.

Comment #187: ScottInOH  on  07/20  at  07:10 PM

And what about the man who DOES lose weight, practice his conversation skills, diversify his interests, etc. etc. etc. and still can’t get anywhere?  People like Amanda Marcotte don’t believe that happens, either, for reasons I haven’t yet comprehended.

Finding a partner is a numbers game.  For most mortal humans, it’s really difficult, no matter how much effort they put into it.  That said, I have not once met someone who could not under any circumstances find a willing sex partner where it wasn’t crystal clear why they couldn’t.  And it usually has nothing to do with their own desirability so much as unrealistic standards on their part or a crippling fear of intimacy, usually both.

I think a person who can’t achieve a sexual encounter—for whatever the reason—has the right to pay a willing prostitute for that sexual encounter.

I think you’re making the mistake of assuming that men who can’t find women to fuck them want to go to prostitutes.  They largely don’t, because most of what keeps them from making a romantic or sexual connection with ordinary women similarly keeps them from seeking the services of a sex worker.

And FYI, intelligent and successful men are more likely to go to prostitutes; it might have something to do with how their boldness in their professional lives translates into being bold enough to buy an intimate act from another human being even when they don’t “need” to.

Comment #188: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  07:12 PM

“Specifically, the way men will defends the practice of men going to prostitutes on the grounds that ‘they can’t get sex (which they are entitled to) any other way’.”

I don’t think anyone is entitled to sex, but if one person wants to sell it and another person wants to buy it, let them do what they want. 

“Amanda’s point was that, statistically, that’s not actually the case. As shown by the research she linked to.”

Actually the study she linked to said nothing remotely like that.  I mean, just because two people are married or in a relationship doesn’t mean they are having sex.

Comment #189: B405  on  07/20  at  07:13 PM

Talking to B4 for a few comment rounds makes it pretty obvious he can’t get laid. But I don’t think that entitles him to pay for it.  I think he should work on being less of an asshole to women, to start.  Also, self-pity is a really unattractive trait. Basically, B4, by relying on prostitutes you are turning yourself into a worse and worse person.  For your own sake, you should want to not suck so much and get women to want you for yourself.

Comment #190: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  07:14 PM

In 173# B4, you’re arguing against your own points, or something. Whatever you’re trying to convey, doesn’t make sense even as an argument for your arguments.

When you’re not also misquoting some other commentor, that is.

Huh? is about all I can muster.

Comment #191: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:14 PM

Prostitution exists because there’s demand.  Some women choose it, some are forced into it, but just like McDonald’s, it wouldn’t exist without buyers.  There’s demand because men are socialized to believe they’re entitled to sex.  Just as McDonald’s exists because people are socialized into believing they deserve cheap beef.

Comment #192: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  07:16 PM

“Which has nothing at all to do with thinking of women as saleable commodities instead of people. Nooooooope. “

Sigh.  I never said that it’s wrong to think of prostitution in terms of treating women as commodities to be bought or traded or sold. 

“God damn I don’t know if you’re irretrievably stupid or appallingly evil. But either way, I hope nobody ever comes within 10 feet of you ever again in your life.”

LOL at you.  Yeah, nothing says “evil” like being against human trafficking.

Comment #193: B405  on  07/20  at  07:16 PM

“This is one reason why I won’t date a man who freaks out at the suggestion that he should pay for the first date.”

If I was on a date with a woman for the first time, I would find it really strange and retrograde if she expected me to pay for the whole thing, unless I had invited her along the lines of “let me buy you dinner” or whatever. And I would probably be fairly likely to assume that this was a harbinger of other reactionary tendencies, and I’d likely choose not to go on a second date.

That might be a matter of my social context, though.

“The result of men trying as hard as women would be a society where people comb their hair, keep clean, look after their own health and care about their partners.”

Well. Women certainly try harder than that, don’t they? I comb my hair and wash regularly and I still have big pores, dry elbows, and an oily nose—all of which would be considered obvious examples of slovenliness on a woman. (FWIW, I also try to do something about those for my own sake, but I wouldn’t be socially judged for not doing it.)

What you describe (combed hair, clean, fit) is much closer to the professional male standard than the standard female one. “Trying as hard” would mean extensive shaving or depilation, expensive skin and hair treatments, even more expensive cosmetics, intentionally uncomfortable but ‘attractive’ clothing, etc.

Comment #194: Djur  on  07/20  at  07:17 PM

I doubt B4 is even relying on prostitutes. He just whines and whines in hopes that some woman will fuck him out of overwhelming pity. If he actually WENT to a prostitute, what would he have left to bash women with? And winding himself up into a froth about eeevil feminists who won’t pity him with their vaj is more satisfying than any kind of sex could ever be.

Comment #195: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  07:18 PM

I think women should be allowed to sell sex. That men who buy it are pathetic pieces of shit doesn’t mean I think the women they hire should be thrown in jail.  Strawman.

Comment #196: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  07:18 PM

Keshmeshi, a recent, major study has come to other conclusions about why men buy prostitutes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Comment #197: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:21 PM

@B4: if you’re pro-prostitution in this, the real world, rather than merely in the theoretical realm, then you are NOT anti-trafficking. Full stop. I won’t go so far as to say you’re pro-trafficking, but you are NOT. Anti.

Your complete failure to comprehend just about anything that anyone ever says to you suggests that you fall instead on the “irretrievably stupid” side of the scale anyway.

 

Comment #198: Well, what?  on  07/20  at  07:21 PM

“In 173# B4, you’re arguing against your own points, or something. Whatever you’re trying to convey, doesn’t make sense even as an argument for your arguments.”

You’re wrong. 

“There’s demand because men are socialized to believe they’re entitled to sex. “

There we go again.  Men who go to prostitutes do so because they want sex, not because they think they are entitled to it.  It’s a subtle distinction, but real. 

You seem to be very angry at the idea of men being entitled to sex, which is fine.  But don’t apply that to places where it isn’t appropriate.

And your entire comment #191 is just ridiculous.  If you can’t make a point without absurd and untruthful accusations, then try again.

Comment #199: B405  on  07/20  at  07:23 PM

<blockquote>Something else that is tied up with the buyer/seller metaphor (as Amanda has pointed out several times elsewhere) is the idea that men always want sex and women never do.  I.e., men are “created” as buyers and women as sellers.<blockquote>

I’m glad you signed up and joined us.  And I think this is a really fantastic point.  A big part of it is simply that the male gaze is the default.  Most men don’t find male bodies particularly attractive, so of course a woman could never find the male body attractive.  And since most women aren’t attracted to other women, men assume that they simply aren’t attracted to anyone or anything, that we’re all just asexual and have no desire.  And it can really fuck up a young girl’s mind when she suddenly realizes she’s attracted to boys and then is told by everyone that women simply don’t do that.  And it can also fuck up a boy’s mind when he has been told that women have no sexual desire but suddenly some girl desires him.  I have known a man who was just outright confused when I asked him to take off his pants after I had already taken mine off.  He actually said something like, “What?  You want to see my ass?”  It’s kind of humorous in retrospect but kind of sad that he just couldn’t conceive of me desiring him.

Comment #200: bananacat  on  07/20  at  07:27 PM

“Your complete failure to comprehend just about anything that anyone ever says to you suggests that you fall instead on the “irretrievably stupid” side of the scale anyway. “

Pitiful.

Comment #201: B405  on  07/20  at  07:29 PM

“And winding himself up into a froth”

Right, I’m the one winding myself up into a frenzy here.  Sheesh.

Comment #202: B405  on  07/20  at  07:30 PM

@b405 So pursueing something that is illegal isn’t a way to say to the world that “i deserve this and will have it by any means necessary because i’m entitled to it”? If there wasn’t a sense of entitlement I would think the law would be a better detterent that it has been.

Comment #203: Tersa  on  07/20  at  07:35 PM

B405: your arguments started as straw men and devolved from there to misqouting and gibberish.

And that’s being kind.

 

Comment #204: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  07:35 PM

Complete anecdata:

My former roommate’s friend is a misogynistic asshole. The classical kind who feels he has a right to cheat on a monogamous partner, but that his SO totally does not have that right. And he does cheat. Constantly. He’s incredibly successful at hooking up with women, and his rate of doing so does not decline when he’s in a relationship.

And occasionally he hires a prostitute. So figure that one out.

Comment #205: Triplanetary  on  07/20  at  07:36 PM

Going back a little (and sidestepping B405’s incoherent ramblings), Djur, I understand where you’d be coming from regarding the paying for dates thing.  I actually take the opposite step myself and generally ask to split the check on a first date, precisely because I don’t want the guy to think I’m some weirdo who expects dinner in exchange for her company (or, god forbid, anything ELSE).  This is also my way of weeding out which guys freak out about this and insist on paying the whole bill, because then I know they have some kind of lady issues.

Comment #206: chareth cutestory  on  07/20  at  07:57 PM

Going back to the entitlement issue: 1/3 of the men surveyed in the below study believed that the prostitutes they’d bought were trafficked.

In other words, believed they were entitled to a virtual slave:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Comment #207: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  08:03 PM

My mistake, MORE than a third of the men believed a prostitute they’d bought had been trafficked.

That they were entitled to an actual slave:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Comment #208: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  08:07 PM

This is one of the best of your many great posts, Amanda. Bookmarked, shared, and thank you for your analysis. Thanks too to all the great comments. I learn so much here. Really, sometimes I think it’s better than therapy.

I have had a terrible time on Daily Kos threads on rape, trying to express some of the ideas captured here. The comments there have been so painful to read/respond to. I think the commoditizing of sex and the understanding of who is a buyer and who is a seller—and all of the millions of ways that understanding (conscious or not) gets played out—is foundational. I am tired of being seen as a commodity. And I’m tired of having to convince others that I, along with all women (and children!) are not things to be purchased or used. Nor do we devalue over time. Aimai’s second comment (#112) was brilliant wrt to the role of how women’s value as the embodiment of sex devalues while the purchasing power of men increases in value. Different currency. Excellent point.

Comment #209: tookish  on  07/20  at  08:15 PM

If I was on a date with a woman for the first time, I would find it really strange and retrograde if she expected me to pay for the whole thing, unless I had invited her along the lines of “let me buy you dinner” or whatever.

Thank you for not bothering to read my entire comment.  I have a problem with men who are exceedingly *hostile* to the idea of paying, not with men who reasonably suggest going dutch.  But I’m probably giving you way too much credit since you followed up that point with shitting on women for trying too hard.

Comment #210: keshmeshi  on  07/20  at  08:33 PM

The oxygen in this thread is getting sucked up by the prostitution debate. But I would have really liked to step back and look at the big picture of this post. What does it mean to change the women/sellers men/buyers model? I figure Hugo Schwyzer would say that men have to step up and become worthier of women or some such, and I think Amanda alluded to this. I’m just trying to wrap my brain around what exactly the crux of this debate is. Is that a matter women not pursuing men because men in their current constitution are not attractive enough? Not presentable enough? Not social enough? There was an OKcupid study showing that women perceive 80% of men as below average (vs a normal distribution for women). 

Lastly, regarding the advice men get. From reading The Game (guilty pleasure), I remember a part about the Inner Game concept, which is all about self-improvement - working out, dressing up well, etc. Now, you could argue very persuasively that the devil is in the details (e.g. stylish vs clownish, confident vs arrogant etc), and I’m not here to defend the ramptant mysogyny in the game community. But that’s a different conversation than “Pick-up artist books and websites aren’t interested in teaching men how to improve the product so more women want to buy.”

Comment #211: ArielNYC  on  07/20  at  08:34 PM

Anyone else seeing the link between the prostitution setup and the arguments against RPG’s allowing players to flat out buy advantages instead of having to earn them through game play?

Comment #212: scrumby  on  07/20  at  08:35 PM

The oxygen is being sucked up, as I said in the post, by dudes who don’t like their entitlements challenged.  I figured as much, but am glad there was a decent discussion before dudely butthurt completely took over.

Comment #213: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  08:35 PM

  Prostitution allows sad unfuckable johns to stay unfuckable johns while still getting fucked.  In a perfect world, nobody would have sex without wanting to, and sad unfuckable johns——who usually come across as angry, entitled unfuckable johns——-would have to be reasonably considerate and kind in their dealings with women, because women simply wouldn’t have to so much as tolerate them.

Comment #214: ginmar  on  07/20  at  08:40 PM

Djur @195: I was trying to employ understatement as a rhetorical device. 

In reality, if men were held to women’s standards, they would look waaaaay better on average, but just as importantly there would be a lot more generosity.  Women would be better cared for emotionally.  We’d start seeing women gain the benefits that only men currently get from marriage: higher salaries, better health, etc.

Comment #215: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  08:43 PM

@206: It makes perfect sense.  Research on johns shows that being a john is about the power that buying a woman gives you, the feeling of masculinity.  It’s not an act of desperation for most johns, who, like your acquaintance, have girlfriends or wives.

Comment #216: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  08:46 PM

@217 Amanda, do you have any links to that research? I’d be interested in reading it.

I’ve been kind of interested in the reasons men seek prostitutes for a while, because while I can buy (heh) that it’s desperation or curiosity for some, it clearly does not seem like that’s the case all the time. Especially, I doubt that’s the case for men who are otherwise partnered who still seek out prostitutes on a regular basis. I could see desperation or rank curiosity being a reason more for men who do it just one or a couple of times.

But I know for me that as a woman, the idea of hiring a prostitute doesn’t appeal to me specifically because of what it would symbolize: that I couldn’t get a guy on my own appeal. Which is obviously not how men think of it for themselves.

Comment #217: luxaeturna  on  07/20  at  08:51 PM

Your concerns are noted, Ariel.

Comment #218: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  08:52 PM

In the post, lux.  Johns report not really enjoying the actual sex very much and most have wives and girlfriends.  Having your friends goad and encourage you plays a big role in whether men pay prostitutes.  Obviously, there’s diversity in the group we call “johns”, but the stereotype that they are just sad sacks who can’t get laid is false.  The average john is a partnered man who believes in the sexual double standard and enjoys the thrill of paying someone so that he basically “owns” her for a time.

Comment #219: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  08:55 PM

bananacat @ 201: Totally.  Seeing sex as a transaction really screws with people’s minds and emotions.

ArielNYC @ 212: I didn’t understand most of what you said, but as to the question of What Is To Be Done, I thought Amanda’s last paragraph was pointing in the right direction, and some other posters picked up on it, too.  Don’t think of sex as a transaction or as dominance but as part of a friendship.

Comment #220: ScottInOH  on  07/20  at  09:12 PM

The research demonstrates all sorts of things, Amanda:

The unexpected results, said Shively and Martin Monto, a University of Oregon sociologist who studies prostitutes and their clients, offer a window into the minds of the roughly 20% of American men who researchers believe will pay for sex sometime in their lives. The numbers from San Francisco and San Diego suggest that far from being hardened deviants, most johns—especially those who have had few encounters with hookers—are surprisingly malleable creatures susceptible to the full-frontal assault of john school.

“Most of these guys fall into one of three basic categories: Sad sacks who are looking for a girlfriend-like experience; those who don’t want to deal with the emotional component of a relationship and just want the sex; and thrill seekers. Only a very small number are actual sociopaths,” Shively said. “A lot of the themes in the classes appeal to these guys’ sense of empathy and self-preservation.”

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/26/local/me-john-school26/2

Of course San Francisco and San Diego aren’t representative of conditions throughout the country, but this I found interesting as it comes from researchers, not cops or an advocacy group.

ginmar, word, I’ve always thought the world would be better off if there was no demand for prostitution.

 

Comment #221: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/20  at  09:17 PM

@ScottInOH

Let me try to rephrase that. In Amanada’s words, we should strive for a world where “everyone is kind of selling a little, but no one is cast as a buyer.” And I heartily agree. So my question, how do we get more men to sell and more women to buy? I think that as a guy you uphold the existing model not necessarily because you want to, not necessarily because you enjoy the chase,  but because you learn that this is how our society works. If you want to be with a girl, you’ll have work for it (that is, assuming you’tr the average guy). If you sit on your hands, nothing will happen. If you wait for women to contact you on the internet, you’ll get nothing. If you wait for a girl to approach you at a bar, you’ll get nothing. So there’s social conditioning that’s baked into the cake.  So I’m wondering how this dynamic is going to change.

Comment #222: ArielNYC  on  07/20  at  09:44 PM

And what about the man who DOES lose weight, practice his conversation skills, diversify his interests, etc. etc. etc. and still can’t get anywhere? 
Comment #165: B405 on 07/20 at 06:34 PM

He can go someplace private and jerk off.

Comment #223: snobographer  on  07/20  at  09:49 PM

@b405 So pursueing something that is illegal isn’t a way to say to the world that “i deserve this and will have it by any means necessary because i’m entitled to it”? If there wasn’t a sense of entitlement I would think the law would be a better detterent that it has been.
Comment #204: Tersa on 07/20 at 07:35 PM

Also pursuing something that involves a human being who was most likely trafficked into that abusive situation when she was about 12 years old, raped and otherwise brutalized on a frequent and regular basis ever since, and is at least as likely to have PTSD as a combat veteran. Sexxxay!

Comment #224: snobographer  on  07/20  at  10:00 PM

Say that reminds me. My favorite part of the Sad Unfuckable John myth is that prostitutes provide *companionship.*

Comment #225: snobographer  on  07/20  at  10:05 PM

Ariel, it’s come up several times in threads on Pandagon: there are studies that show men are well aware when they’re crossing the line from courting to harassing/coercing women.

Comment #226: judybrowni  on  07/20  at  10:05 PM

Dudely Butthurt would be an excellent name for a band.  They could open every show with a cover of “No-Pussy Blues.”

Comment #227: Sour Kraut  on  07/20  at  10:08 PM

Ariel, the research indicates men actually do know, and your claims they don’t are likely being offered in bad faith. 

Like I said, if you stop thinking of women as objects to buy and start approaching women with the same respect you have for people you want as friends, it’s not that hard!  But I think men already know that; the model of men buying and women selling offers so much privilege that they just “unknow” what they know.

Comment #228: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  10:51 PM

@226 he just can’t get off the idea that men are entitled to sex, and that if they fill out a checklist, they should be given a pussy, just the way that if you pass the credit score and come up with the down payment, you should get the car.  Women are objects that are attained, not people whose feelings deserve respect.  They’re a lot like items you win in a video game by finishing the challenges, in fact!  And paying for sex is like buying a fancy cheat code.

Comment #229: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  10:55 PM

126: Keshmeshi, it was not my intention to imply “women are irrational.” (Except insofar as “women” is a subset of “humans,” which I imagine you would find a less objectionable sentiment.) Would you do me a favor and point out what part of my comment sounded like I meant that, so that in the future I can avoid whatever infelicitous phrasing I used?

Comment #230: Benquo  on  07/20  at  10:55 PM

146 and 212 point out something very important. This is definitely a case of “sexism hurts men too.” I wish I’d been taught this stuff earlier. For one thing, the idea that you have the power to change yourself in a way that makes you more attractive is a message a lot of men need to hear.

Despite all the bravado and pretensions to elite knowledge and skills, PUA often seems to serve as remedial socialization for a lot of men who were never forced to learn this stuff earlier. It would probably be better if these positive messages (you can make yourself more attractive to women by improving a set of personal traits/skills) were coming from more directions, not just the PUA world.

Comment #231: Benquo  on  07/20  at  11:12 PM

Sorry, that should have been 156 and 212

Comment #232: Benquo  on  07/20  at  11:13 PM

“Thank you for not bothering to read my entire comment.  I have a problem with men who are exceedingly *hostile* to the idea of paying, not with men who reasonably suggest going dutch.  “

OK, I apologize for misunderstanding you. Are we talking about someone who offers to pay in the first place but then groans and whines about it? That’s certainly unpleasant behavior. What I’m saying is: if I asked someone “hey, want to get some drinks?” and we went out and got some drinks, I would expect that both of us would pay our own way. If the bill came to the table and I started working on divvying up the bill and got a negative response suggesting I was expected to pay the whole bill, I would probably not be super happy about that, no.

“since you followed up that point with shitting on women for trying too hard.”

My intention there was to suggest that there is next to no space in our culture for men to try as hard as women do, unless we introduce high heels and makeup for men. We can’t achieve equality just by raising the standards for men. The standards for women need to drop as well. That’s all I meant.

Comment #233: Djur  on  07/20  at  11:13 PM

Woodrowfan, 41:

Bananacat: so you go through life assuming the worst of everyone you meet. that’s pretty fucking sad.

I don’t get the impression bananacat is “assuming” anything; my understanding is that she’s experienced this.

It doesn’t match my experience, because I’m not a woman and people don’t think I am, but she’s not describing behavior totally out of line with attitudes I’ve observed humans to hold.

I disagree with Amanda that you’re demonstrating male privilege in arguing by assertion; I think you’re primarily demonstrating it by assuming that a woman who seems to have different experiences from yours as a man is exaggerating or delusional or speaking entirely in hypotheticals.

Woodrowfan, 48:

You would not give him the benefit of the doubt and be polite until he proved to be threatening.  I know that you wouldn’t.  You would fear for your safety.

I have been in that situation and yes, I was polite AND on guard. they are not mutually exclusive.

The problem is that “polite” is defined in different ways for men and women. Most pertinently, men are not expected to demonstrate our non-snobbery by interacting with everyone who demands it; we can ignore Schroedinger’s mugger even if he directly addresses us and not automatically lose our claim on politeness.

In society—perhaps not the ideal society, but the one I, at least, live in—the burden to care about other’s feelings falls more heavily on women than on men. Which is probably why a lot of the women on the thread are taking issue with your tone trolling about how they need to be polite; I imagine they have the belief, and it’s neither an unreasonable nor an arbitrary one, that you are telling them not to be indifferent to the feelings of those who accost them.

And yes, we’re not talking about meet-market type places, and it’s a little disturbing that even once the grocery store was mentioned in so many words it took you several comments to work that out. Not that anyone owes anyone else an explanation in a meet market either. With the possible exception of when the reason doesn’t boil down to “you just don’t interest me in that/any way.”

Trip, 144:

My mother runs a plumbing company, so she deals with that kind of bullshit all the time. Sales reps will call her and ask to speak to the person in charge of purchasing. She’ll say that that person is her. Inevitably there will be a pause. Then, “Is there a man in charge of purchasing I could speak to?” Presumably the sales rep is thinking, “Haha, silly secretary must have gotten confused.”

You’d think in sales the problem would be self-correcting.

bananacat, 201:

A big part of [the idea that men want sex and women don’t] is simply that the male gaze is the default.  Most men don’t find male bodies particularly attractive, so of course a woman could never find the male body attractive

Part of it is that and the Two Rules; part, I think, is that if I go out and a random woman and I have sex (disregarding that I’m in a relationship), it is more likely to end badly for her and not me than the other way around (even taking into account that I’m not going to beat or rape her) and it is more likely to end well for me and not her than the other way around. So I suspect women are far less likely to experience—certainly to display—unguarded desire or desire without apprehension. The benefit may be the same, but her cost is higher.

Or, y’know,not. I’ll go to the mat for the Two Rules explanation, though.

Comment #234: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/20  at  11:29 PM

“Most pertinently, men are not expected to demonstrate our non-snobbery by interacting with everyone who demands it”

I think body language is a huge part of it. Women are expected to make eye contact, to smile, to turn toward the person and position their body in a welcoming manner, to deliver bad news (like “no thanks”) with a sympathetic expression and maybe a pat on the arm. Otherwise they’re cold bitches.

I’ve actually seen a little natural experiment in this. I had left work and was waiting for a ride. A dude comes up to me and asks if he can bum a smoke. I keep my nose in my book and say “no man, sorry”. He says “cool” and wanders off. A bit later, a female coworker leaves the office and is walking to her car. The same dude approaches her and asks the same question. She says “sorry, I don’t smoke” and walks past. What do I hear when she leaves and the guy is still wandering around? “Ice queen,” and a few elaborations on that theme.

Comment #235: Djur  on  07/20  at  11:39 PM

Women are schooled to be “attractive” and the word is practically synonymous with “pretty”, but you can see the problem if you think about it. Once upon a time women might have been desperate to attract men, but most of us don’t live in Jane Austen’s world any more. Perhaps some women still do, and it does look like quite a few men think they do.

P. Z. Myers linked to an article by Jennifer Ouellette about the miserable treatment of women in professional settings. Even I could sympathize with the point about being interrupted. I once realized that our sales and marketing guys were pulling that shit on me, taking advantage of my politeness despite the fact that I was one of the owners of the company. My eventual response was to go alpha male on them (privilege has its advantages), but it did sensitize me. I found having more women in senior management improved the atmosphere markedly.

Comment #236: bad Jim  on  07/20  at  11:51 PM

What makes this even more toxic is the fact that in our culture there is a really nasty dominance paradigm built into the whole buyer/seller dynamic. I’ve been thinking about this lately, having recently gotten a minimum wage job in retail. A lot of people take the attitude that their money not only entitles them to whatever they’re buying, it also entitles them to treat the person selling like shit and still get a smile and a “Thank you, come again!” You would not believe how many people think that giving me eight dollars entitles them not only to see a movie, but also to say varying levels of nasty bullshit, bitch me out about things obviously out of my control and to have me coo and apologize until they are placated. I’m expected to do this well beyond the normal standards of what is polite. I feel that this translates over into the buying/selling sex paradigm as well.

Comment #237: Triste Morningstar  on  07/21  at  12:04 AM

From the anecdata I’ve heard, men are much likelier to be openly rude to women when they reject them sexually. Women at least try to be polite most of the time, whereupon they get criticized for not being polite enough. But I should of course remember that men’s feelings matter and women’s don’t.

Comment #238: junk science  on  07/21  at  12:04 AM

Triste, the customer is always right.

Comment #239: junk science  on  07/21  at  12:05 AM

@JudyBrowni & Amanda


I’m not sure which part of my post you’re referring to. Please point me where I argued that men don’t know the difference beteween courting and coercion, or that being the “buyer” is a license to be a predator, and I’ll correct myself.

As for approaching sex\romance as you would a friendship, that’s totally fine with me. My point was about who intiates. To change model of men pursuing and women being pursued, the dynamic would obviously have to shift. Which why I alluded to the whole idea in feminist circles that men have to step up and become more worthy. That’s the debate I wanted to have. I’m not sure how this ended up being about disputing clear boundaries and consent.

Comment #240: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  12:08 AM

One of the ads at the bottom of the screen when I wrote my previous comment illustrated my first point: “How to attract men.” Amanda’s point is that, when hungry, both men and women are, or of right ought to be, both fishing for one another. Too many men, as unaware of their privilege as fish are of water, think nothing has changed since their parents or grandparents were born, while the rest of us are nostalgic for the future.

Comment #241: bad Jim  on  07/21  at  12:11 AM

@238:

Oh, no question. It’s a really nasty intersection between consumerist capitalism (ie, being a paying customer entitles them to be treated like a king/queen), and classism (ie, you work for wages, ergo you’re a subhuman piece of shit).

Adding another intersection in terms of not only the way women in general are dehumanized, but the way sexually available women are treated like commodities to which any given man feels entitled, must make the dynamic incredibly disturbing for sex workers.

(In fairness, I’ve read blog posts and such from sex workers themselves who claim that they deal with a wide range of customers, many of them not unpleasant, and I’m inclined to believe them, obviously. But as with working in a retail setting, the way you get treated by your absolute worst customers tends to stick with you and make you feel like shit for a long while.)

Comment #242: Triplanetary  on  07/21  at  12:13 AM

“Dudely Butthurt”?  You mean B405, Amanda?

Comment #243: Older  on  07/21  at  12:14 AM

B405 at #161: I think you forgot to add,

“Enjoy.”

“Enjoy.”

If you want to sacrifice the appearance of having basic reading comprehension at the altar of Stroking Your Misogyny With A Bunch of Unwilling Ladies that’s how it’s done.

Amanda: This post was utterly freaking fabulous. I read Twisty’s post yesterday and have thought a lot about it, so thanks so much for adding to this discussion. Personally the buyer/seller trends you described had always seemed obvious to me but I didn’t know how to express it. But if you’d suggested a marketplace metaphor I would have identified women as buyers and men as sellers since at bars and flirty places they’re peddling their penis door to door until they get a taker. But this makes more sense overall.

Like, men “girl-watching” on the street are window-shopping since they’re unwilling or unable to pay. Reminding you you’re for sale. And especially aimai’s description of female sex-commodity depreciating over time or being used up. If a man is still paying full price (attention, etc) to a woman who is used up or depreciated he should logically just get a new model right? Gah!

Judybrowni @147 Thank you! It’s like the longer you engage with that one particular type of man, the more of a chance he has to imprint on you like some psychotic duckling and then you cannot ditch him. Very scary. I’ve been lurking on this blog for a long time btw, and I always enjoy your comments.

Comment #244: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  07/21  at  12:17 AM

too many different points here:

1. Seems to me the main problem with the societal model is how gendered it is—women have to be the sellers, parting with something they don’t want to give up. That’s sexist and leads to all ythe problems Amanda points to.

2. Prostitution actually isn’t all males buying females. Women buy gigolos and male strippers, and gay males (or more accurately MWHSWM) buy males.

3. The problem with the enthusiastic consent model is a lot of sex is transactional. People do trade it for other things. People marry rich people for money. They refuse to consort with people of lower social classes. They divorce over financial difficulties. People following Dan Savage’s GGG formula do things they don’t like to please a partner who does things for them.

Since sexuality, in reality, is often traded, a theory of sexuality that says you can never buy it is unworkable.

What may be workable, however, is a system where women (1) aren’t always assumed to be the sellers and (2) are treated fairly and equally in any transaction.

Comment #245: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  12:32 AM

@127 bananacat: The non-linear attractiveness thing I’ll have to mull over. I’ve heard people say most men are intimidated by “perfect” looking women. But I’ve always thought of it as part of the Madonna/whore complex. Being magazine thin and pretty makes you a Madonna in society, and ideal woman. So men approach them in a Madonna way, through church or mutual friends, “respectfully” or whatever (not all the time, of course). And if you fall on the “whore” side of the equation they approach you like a whore: by hollering at you for sex on the street or skeeving on you at a bar. But maybe I’m wrong and it’s just an intimidation thing.

Comment #246: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  07/21  at  12:33 AM

2. Prostitution actually isn’t all males buying females. Women buy gigolos and male strippers, and gay males (or more accurately MWHSWM) buy males.

Yes, because women hiring men happens exactly as often as men hiring women and the two things are treated and viewed the same way in our society, amirite?  Women do this thing that men do a tiny fraction of the time so clearly there’s no double standard!  We can all go home now, Ladies.  We’ve been assured that we are no longer in a sexist society.

Comment #247: bananacat  on  07/21  at  12:38 AM

You know what I’ve never gotten, ever since I first learned what prostitution was as a kid? How having to pay someone to fuck you puts you in a superior position to someone you’re willing to pay for the privilege of fucking. How the hell did things get twisted around so badly? If a man were so attractive that women were willing to pay to fuck him, he would think he was awesome. Yet a “whore” is the worst, lowest thing a woman can be. That’s some high-definition projection there.

Comment #248: junk science  on  07/21  at  12:39 AM

@249 junk science
sorry for posting so much but that’s always been a brain twister for me too! I guess this amazing comment from Twisty’s post says it all: “If I get my dick in you, you lose.” Dick goes in woman, woman loses. Dick goes in man, man loses. Man pays to put dick in prostitute, prostitute loses. I guess?
Ok, I’m going to bed now.

Comment #249: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  07/21  at  12:45 AM

@127 bananacat: The non-linear attractiveness thing I’ll have to mull over. I’ve heard people say most men are intimidated by “perfect” looking women. But I’ve always thought of it as part of the Madonna/whore complex. Being magazine thin and pretty makes you a Madonna in society, and ideal woman. So men approach them in a Madonna way, through church or mutual friends, “respectfully” or whatever (not all the time, of course). And if you fall on the “whore” side of the equation they approach you like a whore: by hollering at you for sex on the street or skeeving on you at a bar. But maybe I’m wrong and it’s just an intimidation thing.

Full disclaimer: I was only describing my personal experience and I don’t know if it applies to all women.

But even at my hottest, men still approached me in a whore way.  I was never treated like a Madonna, probably because I had gigantic boobs that sprouted when I was 9 years old.  I was never actually magazine thin either; I’ve always had pretty extreme hips to go with the freakishly large breasts, and I never wore smaller than a size 8, largely because “juniors” clothes simply did not account for curves.

But my point was that I got hit on all the time when I was performing femininity adequately, but then when I tried to be less attractive, I got hit on even more.  Like I said, this has varied widely depending on the city that I’m in.

But what I did notice is that when I was less than ideal, men were much more rude when I turned them down.  They would make a point of insulting me and telling me how unfuckable I was, literally minutes after they had apparently so astounded by my beauty that they had to stop me, a random stranger in public, and ask me to fuck them.  I really do think that this was a simple case of me seeming more approachable, because a fat woman or a woman with greasy hair and sweatpants should be grateful for any attention she gets.

That’s just one anecdote, but I never felt like they viewed me as a Madonna and more as a mean girl.

Comment #250: bananacat  on  07/21  at  12:46 AM

By the way, on the trafficking issue, as long as prostitution is cheap and illegal, trafficking will be edxtensive (much like drug prohibition keeps smuggleres in business)..

There’s a lot wrong woith how Nevada and Amsterdam regulate the trade, but making it legal and expensive reduces trafficking. It’s also better for the non-trafficked sex workers, and prices out some of the cheaper, perhaps more misogynistic customers.

Comment #251: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  12:50 AM

#248:

Only the rest of my post contradicted your snark.

Comment #252: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  12:52 AM

It’s also better for the non-trafficked sex workers, and prices out some of the cheaper, perhaps more misogynistic customers.

Why would richer men be less misogynistic than poorer men?

Comment #253: junk science  on  07/21  at  12:53 AM

There is a pattern I keep detecting in the way that Western men understand women—especially outspoken women like feminists. Some common tropes are the reversal of cause and effect in terms of determining which party (eg. male or female) is “to blame”; the attribution of psychological disturbances to the female party; the attribution to the female party of having a gender identity disturbance, the defence of the male party as being reasonable and sincere, despite appearances to the contrary and various levels of sexual threats made against the female party.

http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com/2011/07/rebecca-watsons-privilege-delusion.html

Comment #254: scratchy888  on  07/21  at  12:53 AM

#254

More like an expensive escort’s clientele is likely to include less of the guys who Amanda seems to be railing against and more people who aare buying a sexual fantasy, couples looking for threesomes, actual companionship, etc.

Also, I wonder where the bright lines are here. I already got attacked over gigolos, but seriously, should they be illegal? What about gay male prostitution (which is really common)? What’s the theory there? How about dominatrixes who charge for a session in their dungeons?

It seems to me there’s one transaction that really bugs people here but it’s actually part of a genre of transactions, many of which have different gender valences than heterosexual female sale of sex does.

Comment #255: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  01:03 AM

We’re supposed to root for Ron to get the beautiful, talented, smart, and way-too-fucking-good-for-him Hermione because he’s a nice guy who has paid the requisite price.  He showed up at the dealership, provided his credit score (he’s nice) and came up with funds (he cares for her), and so it’s a sale!  Why would you ever question otherwise?

The impression I always got was that Hermione wanted Ron just because she wanted him, whether for his pretty face and his hot ass or because endlessly bantering with him turned her on. I never saw the attraction being one-sided on either part, though I understand others did.

Comment #256: junk science  on  07/21  at  01:03 AM

This post was incredible. It might even help with my issues: I *HATE* haggling, I even hated it in frickin’ WIZARDRY!

Comment #257: Mark Temporis  on  07/21  at  01:06 AM

less of the guys who Amanda seems to be railing against and more people who aare buying a sexual fantasy, couples looking for threesomes, actual companionship, etc.

Amanda is railing against guys trying to buy companionship as if it’s a commodity or trying to fulfill the fantasy of buying and controlling a woman. Did you think she only had a problem with crackhead johns who beat and rape prostitutes?

Comment #258: junk science  on  07/21  at  01:07 AM

Also, since you apparently need clarification, I don’t think boys should be raped from the age of 12 and trafficked into sexual slavery so that women can pay to fuck them.

Comment #259: junk science  on  07/21  at  01:09 AM

#259

I actually think that Amanda has several disjointed thoughts on this issue, and would benefit from figuting oout exactly which forms of transactional sex she is opposed to and why. Because her current theory is overinclusive and would seem to sweep in a whole bunch of transactions that don’t fit within her reasoning as to what is wrong with the buyer /  seller model.

Comment #260: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  01:13 AM

“More like an expensive escort’s clientele is likely to include less of the guys who Amanda seems to be railing against and more people who aare buying a sexual fantasy, couples looking for threesomes, actual companionship, etc.”

Yes, sexual fantasies like Eliot Spitzer wanting to bareback with a call girl. What a step up.

Comment #261: Djur  on  07/21  at  01:15 AM

#260

That’s my point though. If that is the problem (and it is a problem),, then the problem isn’t that it is wrong to buy and sell sex, because plenty of transactions don’t involve that.

On the other hand, if the problem is buying and selling sex, then all sorts of transactions that do not feature the gender inequality that Amanda identifies just got equivalenced with trafficking 12 year olds.

Comment #262: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  01:16 AM

#262:

How many people are allowed to go bareback at legal brothels in Nevada?

Comment #263: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  01:18 AM

Men don’t pay for sex because they can’t get the kind of sex they like.  Paying for sex IS the type of sex they like.  Same deal with rape.

Comment #264: bananacat  on  07/21  at  01:33 AM

During summer in Southern California, even while we’re enjoying cooler weather than the rest of the country, people dress for comfort, so men and women are fairly skimpily attired, partly for comfort and partly because it’s what everyone else does. For that reason I find it hard to understand why anyone would ever say “If you dress like that it’s clear what you have in mind and it’s you’re fault if anything happens to you.”

We’re a culture in transition and I’m actually encouraged by the repeated use of “bitch” on this thread. Neither men nor women actually ought to have to act like assholes, but, for now, women who act like well-behaved men are probably going to be perceived as “bitches” and probably called that from time to time, mostly behind their backs but occasionally to their faces. Unfair as it is, it’s best to be strong and claim that title as a token of strength. (I say that with trepidation because I’ve seen what it costs a friend of mine, a very competent professional, even to pronounce the word. She also wore dresses and heels in our t-shirt and jeans environment. Make of that what you will.)

That means, for now, that we have to do more work than we should because we’re bringing a new world into existence. Women need to toughen up, not because they ought to be tougher, but because there remain obstacles to overcome, one guy at a time. (My nephew, who recently moved in with his brilliant and loving girlfriend, thanked me for urging him to do his share of housework. The credit is due entirely to Pandagon and its commentariat.)

Comment #265: bad Jim  on  07/21  at  01:53 AM

Because her current theory is overinclusive and would seem to sweep in a whole bunch of transactions that don’t fit within her reasoning as to what is wrong with the buyer /  seller model.

There’s two different issues getting mixed up.

There’s sex in general being treated as a commodity buyer/seller relationship. And there’s prostitution specifically which clearly is a buyer/seller relationship with something sexual, which may or may not involve actual intercourse, as the commodity.

Sex does not equal Prostitution, anymore than, say, competition shooting at a range (or an Inuk hunter getting food for his family) equals a firefight between two gang members who are spraying and praying with submachine guns. The latter may involve some of the same actions as the former, using the same tools in the general same way (there are, after all, only so many ways to point and shoot a gun), but the setting makes them two completely different activities. And people should know to approach them in two different ways.

Prostitution, as far as I’m concerned, falls into the same spectrum of activities as phone sex lines, people visiting S&M clubs, or any other activity where you are explicitly paying someone to satisfy a sexual kink without anything other than the explicitly paid-for service forming a connection between buyer and seller. Some parts of the spectrum might be so offensive and abusive (kiddie porn with real people, as one obvious example) that they cannot be allowed in a functioning society; others, such as straight old-fashioned hooking, might in theory be okay if consensual but have so many issues that it might never be morally resolvable; others like phone-sex lines might be kinky but seen as relatively harmless, it doesn’t matter. The motives don’t matter. Who’s doing what to whom doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is that you cannot confuse the buyer-seller relationship there, which is entirely appropriate, with the buyer-seller relationship people and/or society imposes on sex in general, which is completely inappropriate.

So bringing up prostitution as a counterexample as to the argument why a buyer-seller dynamic about sex in general is wrong is disingenuous.

Comment #266: KeithM  on  07/21  at  02:05 AM

#265:

That’s an assertion. Amanda says it too, but the studies about why people go to prostitutes and the self-testimony of sex workers doesn’t support that assertion.

#267

I agree with much of what you said. The problem is that it is Amanda who ropes prostitution (and other forms of transactional sex) in with the problem of women being seen as “sellers”. The reality is that they are different. (And further, that within the category “prostitution” are different practices that raise different issues.)

Comment #267: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  02:57 AM

But prostitution is really an offshoot of the sex as commodities thing. It’s exists because sex is a commodity even if it’s ideally the proper regulation of the sex item. I brought the game comparison earlier. If you spend forty hours slaying monsters and completing quests to earn the magical shield of awesomeness you benefit not only by whatever the shield gives you but also in experience and skill gained from the time you put into playing. Now there’s another player with cash to burn that doesn’t want to waste time earning the MSA (because that’s so fucking boring man) so they just buy it. They never get the same skills and are worse players because of it, which might just hurt them but it also could hurt any group they’re playing in; lazy players don’t pull their weight. That’s your daters vs.your johns. One group is put a little time and effort into getting something valuable and the other just wants the prize because it’s a prize and they should have it. Prostitutes are the people who sold moneybags up there the MSA. They put in the time and skill to get it and now they’re going to sell it for as much as they can get. You can’t really blame them for wanting to make actual money off something intangible and infinite as a item in a computer game or a sexual favor but their existence depends on there being douche-bags who would rather hand over some cash then actually work toward the objective of something they’re doing for fun in the first place.

Comment #268: scrumby  on  07/21  at  03:37 AM

The assumption of women as asexual is pretty interesting to me, since I am.

The reason it’s interesting is that the reaction to learning about my sexuality is usually shock and horror.  There’s always the, “But men need sex!” thing (no, no one ever died from not having sex), wherein it’s implied that I am somehow bashing men by not catering to their supposed “needs,” particularly by guys who equate “attractive” with “has loads of sex.”  I don’t know how many times I’ve heard that it’s impossible for me to dislike sex because I’m attractive.  Too many, I guess.

You would think with the common view being that women give/sell sex and men buy/take it that people would just be like, “Oh, well, all women hate sex anyway,” when they find out I’m not interested.  But usually they start asking lots of proddingly inappropriate questions and telling me how unnatural and disordered it is to lack sexuality.  (Also I am apparently disallowed from using makeup, nice clothes, jewelry, or any appearance enhancing items because that indicates to men that I am sexually available ... or something.) 

Basically, it’s just another one of those ugly situations where you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.  If you’re a woman who has sex you’re abnormal because women aren’t supposed to be sexual.  If you’re non-sexual, you’re abnormal because “everyone loves sex!” 

Somehow I get the sense that the “everyone loves sex” translates to, “Women need to perform sex for men” and that it’s not so much about individual desires or lack thereof.  Kind of like when my mom, in her most horrified voice, asked me, “You mean ... you won’t have sex even if your husband wants you to?????” and then got mad when I said I wouldn’t have sex no matter what my hypothetical husband wanted.

But I don’t have a lot of evidence for that.  For the most part the reaction is just more along the lines of, “But all women like sex!  Why don’t you??  OMG HORMONE DAMAGE ABUSE MOLESTATION!!”

Comment #269: BonAppetit  on  07/21  at  05:41 AM

Well, I imagine the problem with you being asexual, as far as the patriarchy is concerned, is that you’re still asserting that you have a right to sexual autonomy. Sure, the patriarchy says, women hate sex, but they’re expecting to offer it up as a commodity in exchange for whatever it is sexist dudes are supposed to be offering (financial security, validation, whatever the fuck, it’s all sexist nonsense anyway). By identifying as asexual you’re declaring that you’re not going to do that, which makes you as much a threat (if not more) to the patriarchal way of life as a promiscuous “slut.”

I mean in a perfect world it wouldn’t matter what the patriarchy thinks about your sexual identity, but you’ve already described the kind of reactions you get as a result of it.

Comment #270: Triplanetary  on  07/21  at  06:13 AM

Going back to the entitlement issue: 1/3 of the men surveyed in the below study believed that the prostitutes they’d bought were trafficked.

In other words, believed they were entitled to a virtual slave:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

God, that article is disgusting and depressing.  But almost worse is the comments - either men failing reading comprehension so hard I can only assume it was willful blindness, or comments consisting basically of “hurr hurr men want sex, men buy sex, hurr hurr”.  And this from the comments to a supposedly leftwing readership.  Ugh.

Comment #271: Katherine  on  07/21  at  07:13 AM

I want to go back to something Arlie said upthread:

Let me try to rephrase that. In Amanada’s words, we should strive for a world where “everyone is kind of selling a little, but no one is cast as a buyer.” And I heartily agree. So my question, how do we get more men to sell and more women to buy? I think that as a guy you uphold the existing model not necessarily because you want to, not necessarily because you enjoy the chase,  but because you learn that this is how our society works. If you want to be with a girl, you’ll have work for it (that is, assuming you’tr the average guy). If you sit on your hands, nothing will happen. If you wait for women to contact you on the internet, you’ll get nothing. If you wait for a girl to approach you at a bar, you’ll get nothing. So there’s social conditioning that’s baked into the cake.  So I’m wondering how this dynamic is going to change.
Comment #223: ArielNYC on 07/20 at 09:44 PM

I think part of a real change would be not merely “everyone’s selling a little bit and everyone’s buying” but the right of both parties to be autonomous actors at alltimes be recognized. In other words the right of the commodity (women) to choose and choose again be recognized as not only natural but desirable.  Under the current model not only are women always “selling” to choosy buyers who view them as a utility (another factor) but, as I said way upthread, the object (women) are seen as not entitled to refuse and as losing value the more “owners” or “users” they have had.  There’s also clearly a cultural bias against “renting” out your sexuality because it depreciates.

I think, to some extent, we are already moving rapidly towards a more equitable situation.  Open dating, pre-marital sexuality, multiple partners prior to marriage are much more widely accepted than when I was young.  The previous hard and fast “you broke the hymen/you bought it” model is pretty much dead except in some ethnic groups and for some hard liners. 

When women are not only recognized but celebrated for being enthusiastically into partner sex, able to ask for what they want without fear of social opprobrium, we’ll be in a good place socially.  Until then merely shifting to guys dressing better or coaxing more isn’t all that meaningful.

aimai

Comment #272: aimai  on  07/21  at  07:29 AM

In Amanada’s words, we should strive for a world where “everyone is kind of selling a little, but no one is cast as a buyer.” And I heartily agree. So my question, how do we get more men to sell and more women to buy?

I think you missed the “no buyers” bit.

Comment #273: Katherine  on  07/21  at  07:48 AM

Benquo, are you completely socially clueless or is English your second (or third or whatever) language?

Comment #274: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  08:44 AM

helen w.h., English is my first language and yes, when I ask questions it’s generally because I do not know the answer.

Maybe this has never happened to you because you are some kind of communication savant, but sometimes perfectly normal human beings fail to perfectly understand one another.

Can you be more specific about where I’m still being clueless?

Comment #275: Benquo  on  07/21  at  09:14 AM

Fantastic post; and great comment thread, too.

I think another thing inherent in the mercantile model of sex, which some people have alluded to but not addressed directly, is the notion that women don’t have a subjective sexuality - they don’t ever want to have sex for the sake of having sex. Inside of the mercantile paradigm that makes sense: people don’t sell things because they enjoy the act of selling, they do so in order to make a living. So there is no expectations of “seller satisfaction” in the way that there’s an expectation of “customer satisfaction”.

It might seem like a minor point, but I think it’s actually at the bottom of how we solve this problem - and it’s also where I depart from Twisty Faster, whom I otherwise idolise, on questions of consent. Because the best and surest way to topple the idea that you’re buying something from someone is to point out that actually, that person is buying that thing from you.

If we build a culture in which women enjoy and demand sex, rather than just passively and unwillingly perform it, then the whole edifice collapses willy nilly, since it’s functionally impossible to exploit someone by giving them what they want (well OK it is in the case of e.g. addiction, but work with me here). Which means that being pro-sex and pro women enjoying enthusiastic sex is not just superficially rebellious, but seriously dangerous and undermining to the P.

Comment #276: MarinaS  on  07/21  at  09:40 AM

Amanda, can I just tell you again how much I love it when you take down Nice Guys(TM)? And of course the ludicrous assertions of constant female availability.

Personally I despise it when a guy KEEPS PUSHING despite the fact that I have made it abundantly clear that I’m not interested. And boy, does it ever take the cake when he proceeds to MAKE DEMANDS of me.

I’ll be honest, it’s a HUGE turnoff. The former preschool teacher in me has the wicked urge to put him in time-out, because the way in which he’s being a demanding pest is very similar to some of the small children I’ve taken care of over the years.

Except those kids were KIDS. Adults have no excuse whatsoever. It is not my problem if a guy is socially unaware/clueless/whatever. I have a hard time socially, too, a fact that is never acknowledged even when I point it out. (I know I’ve ranted about this before, so I won’t go into it again now.)

I’ve run into this ‘demand’ issue with an acquaintance of mine. We were set up by a friend, went on one date, and….meh. He was okay, but we had jack-all in common. We saw each other at school every so often, and said hi, but I’d get these text messages every once in a blue moon demanding to know why I hadn’t texted him back (I’m notoriously terrible at getting back to people). I was like…”....really?” And the thing is, it annoyed me so much I didn’t respond at all. So his pushing really had the opposite effect.

@Ginmar: I’m sorry he put you through that. What a selfish douchenozzle!

I’ve had similar experiences, notably one guy who was a net acquaintance. I met him twice in real life. We talked and laughed and had a great time—and somehow he became convinced that I was The One. Except I didn’t feel that way about him, which I was honest and forthcoming about.

At first he accepted it, but later on, when I felt ready to start dating men that weren’t him, he behaved very coldly towards me and basically told me to “Have a nice life”. Because doncha know, HE was FIRST IN LINE. He had DIBS. He’d already PAID for me through months of acting like a friend, dammit! (The fact that I had also been a friend to HIM and yet did not behave as if he owed me something was never taken into consideration, though. Fascinating!)

He stopped talking to me completely after that. Frankly, I don’t miss him.

Comment #277: Chai_Latte  on  07/21  at  10:08 AM

I guess I’ve never really had a problem with the idea of “not dateable? go get a hooker”. However, that only applies if you’re going to give the sex worker the same respect as you would give anyone else who you were hiring for a specific job. That kind of puts the lie to the “entitled to sex” thing, since probably an uncomfortable number of people who would follow that logic aren’t likely to even do the basic things like take a shower and wear a condom, never mind treat a sex worker as a professional rather than a fucktoy.

Comment #278: BrianX  on  07/21  at  10:33 AM

The discussion on whether it’s polite and expected that a woman give a reason for rejecting an advance reminds me that standard training for salereps includes ‘dealing with objections’.  Salesreps love it when you give a reason to reject a sale because then they are trained to knock down each of your objections, one after another, until the customer is convinced.  Nothing’s worse to a haggler than an unadorned ‘no’ because they’ve got no lever to work with.

Heh. And this is how my husband somehow always ends up getting cornered by some vendor and buying crap when we go to countries where haggling and aggressive vendors are the norm.  Polite nos. My tactic is that a couple of firm and non-polite NOs to the first couple of vendors who approach in the the area tend to lead to the rest of the vendors leaving you alone as you browse. Then if you find something you really like, you’re in control of opening up the negotiation.

 

Comment #279: hp  on  07/21  at  10:56 AM

Somehow I get the sense that the “everyone loves sex” translates to, “Women need to perform sex for men” and that it’s not so much about individual desires or lack thereof.

I think I was wrong to say that society views women as asexual.  Instead they view us as not desiring men, but still desiring sex with men for a variety of reasons, most commonly validation and gifts.  It’s a really big idea in the Patriarchy/Quiverfull circles, then men desire women and women just love to be desired by men.  They have little interest in the men themselves, but they get turned on by knowing that men desire them.  They claim that this is why some women dress “immodestly” and why it’s their fault if men rape them.  Sadly, this view isn’t limited to ultra-conservative Christians.  It’s the common trope that women get turned on by endless compliments.  This is also why “sluts” are said to have low self-esteem.  It couldn’t be because we enjoy sex for its own sake, and since we’re not demanding commitment or shiny rings it’s not transactional, so it could only be that we are doing it for constant validation that society deems us fuckable.

So by being asexual and and being satisfied without sex, you are giving a giant middle finger to the misogynists because you don’t need external validation to feel good about yourself.  (Although you probably still enjoy compliments in other contexts just like everyone else but the misogynists don’t see that).

Comment #280: bananacat  on  07/21  at  11:02 AM

Tersa, thank you for the helpful note.  I can now go back to copy/pasting here at work were i “must use” explorer.

Comment #281: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  11:11 AM

@aimi

I think we’re on the same page overall. I really don’t have anything to add regarding autonomy and respecting boundaries, couldn’t agree more. I was hoping you could elaborate on one point:
“When women are not only recognized but celebrated for being enthusiastically into partner sex, able to ask for what they want without fear of social opprobrium, we’ll be in a good place socially. “
Could you elaborate on this? Are you referring to slut shaming in general, on society looking down on women who intiate sex? I’m interested in the lived experience of women and understanding how this dynmamic plays out from their perspective, especially in more liberal circles.  From my own limited experience, I can say that slut shaming is a difficult issue to navigate when you date young women, especially if you don’t see a potential for a relationship but would be happy just to hook up. In an ideal world, you would just say that, the woman would take up the opportunity for fun meaningless, mutually-satisfying sex, everyone willl be one experience richer, and life will go on. In the real world, you have to accept that at least some women will react very negatively to that. For example. a girl once asked me after one date if I wanted to see her again. I said I would be up for an NSA thing. At which point she freaked out, complained that I didn’t want anything more serious with her, and moaned about how she must be giving the slut signal or some such. I spent the next 10 minutes trying to calm her down and clarify that it’s nothing to do with any slut signals,  that we’re just not compatible as a couple, and that I just didn’t think it should necessarily preclude any sexual relations, etc. She felt like crap, and I felt like crap.  I’ve had a few more variations of this conversation, and they never turn out well. I would have loved to give every woman a Feminism 101 anti-slut shaming crash course, but it’s not my place. Furthermore, I have no right to tell a woman what her authentic sexuality is. Which I guess i long-winded way of saying that fostering a more transparent and role-free sexual paradigm is hard.

Comment #282: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  12:48 PM

@262—actually, condom use is required in legal Nevada brothels.  Seriously, those places are regulated to the hilt, and the women are required to be tested before and during their work.  Plus, there’s a truckload of security, and the owners do NOT want to lose their licenses, so I suspect that any customer demanding unsafe sex or otherwise mistreating the prostitute would find himself out on his ass in a hurry. 

@281—part of the self-esteem myth is that women do actually use sex as a way to gain companionship or a sense of value, because they really don’t see themselves as having value independent of their attractiveness to a man, and they don’t see themselves as valuable enough to demand anything in return for the sex.  But yes, there’s this idea that a woman who wants and pursues sex outside of a committed relationship is damaged in some way, rather than possibly just being a woman who, at the moment, wants sex without strings attached.  Because women are supposed to use sex transactionally, to get something from men (money, commitment, etc.) and not for its own sake.

Comment #283: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  12:54 PM

@283—What if you tried saying, “You’re really attractive, but we wouldn’t be compatible in a relationship.”  In which case, she can say either, “Okay, bye” or “Who said anything about a relationship?  I don’t want one either.”  Seriously, just don’t make the sex explicit.  Give the woman some space to express what she wants.  You’re not going to educate people by ignoring where they are at at the moment or lecturing them.  If you know that women are prone to feeling anxious about being labeled a slut, try not to do things that, in their view, imply that you think they’re a slut.  It’s not going to help.  The work of fostering better views about desire takes place all the time—how you talk about women in front of your friends, what words you use to describe the women you’ve dated or slept with, how you treat those women before, during, and after you’re sleeping with them, whether you speak out against slut-shaming when you witness it.  It doesn’t happen in the moment that you’re propositioning them.

Comment #284: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  01:10 PM

@ Kit-Kat

To piggyback on your point, the idea of a conventionally-attractive woman hitting hard on a guy conjures the image of prostitution or some tourist trap. And that’s because that goes against the norm, and however a guy may be flattered by this kind of attention, he would be wondering who is this woman following a completely different social script than the one he’s familiar with.

Comment #285: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  01:11 PM

They have little interest in the men themselves, but they get turned on by knowing that men desire them.

So men aren’t ever turned on knowing their partners want them? Their desire for sex doesn’t have any kind of validation mixed in? They never think “God I’m awesome” at any point? They just stare at the tits and pump away until they get off? I would love to know how people who sit around psychoanalyzing “sluts” actually experience sex themselves, or how they claim men experience it. There are so many different reasons to want sex and to enjoy it that I wonder which ones they think apply to men.

Comment #286: junk science  on  07/21  at  01:27 PM

I’ve read blog posts and such from sex workers themselves who claim that they deal with a wide range of customers, many of them not unpleasant, and I’m inclined to believe them, obviously. But as with working in a retail setting, the way you get treated by your absolute worst customers tends to stick with you and make you feel like shit for a long while.

Comment #243: Triplanetary on 07/21 at 12:13 AM


Most of them don’t have Internet access. And even for the ones who have it “good,” relatively speaking, it would be bad for business to talk about all the shit they get.

Comment #287: snobographer  on  07/21  at  01:32 PM

@ Kit-Kat


I think your feedback makes some sense, and I appreciate the advice. I’d only note that this space that ambiguity affords is a double-edged sword. If I don’t come clean about what it is I want, what my boundaries are, the girl can develop expectations that will be painfually disappointed. She can interpret what I say as meaning that I would be open to a relationship later on, that maybe she could just be “friends” with me and that way we’ll get closer, etc. Basically, the Nice Girl syndrome.  It’s tricky.

Comment #288: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  01:39 PM

#279: BrianX on 07/21 at 10:33 AM

Just the idea that a guy “has to” buy sex from a prostitute if he can’t get a date belies male entitlement. If you need sexual release, you can take care of that yourself like women do all the time. You don’t *need* to put your penis into another person’s orifice(s).

Comment #289: snobographer  on  07/21  at  02:01 PM

Benquo - when everything people say is phrased so that they look like either asses or prigs, that generally points to them being socially clueless or operating in other than their native language.  I just wondered which you were as every time you comment you are getting slambed for being obtuse (if English is your native language, frankly I would say rightly so).

Comment #290: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  02:08 PM

^+@290 - and don’t tell me having some poor sod to fuck you* for drug or grocery money does something for your self-esteem or provides you with companionship because that’s fucking ridiculous.

*general ‘you’ - not trying to pick on BrianX, just Johns and entitled dudes in general.

Comment #291: snobographer  on  07/21  at  02:13 PM

@snobographer

I think the prostitution discussion becomes a lot more contentious onec you abstract away all the real-life evils that come along with it (coercion,abuse, trafficking, etc). I don’t have a bone in this fight, but I do find it a bit provocatiev to say that my desire to have sex is by itself a form of entitlement. Furthermore, the idea that women don’t do it so men shouldn’t either just erase the possibility that women should be free to do that too. This is a bit analogues to Dan Savage’s observation that 20th century marriage morphed from infidelity is ok for men to infidelity is not ok for anyone, rather than everyone.

This actually reminds me a bit the oneline discussiosn regarding mismatched libidos in a relationship.  You sometime see this hand-waving attitude of “eh, just masturbate.” Which strikes me as misguided and callous, whether applied to men or women. You’re basically asking people to repress normal human desires.  Again, that doesn’t mean anyone owes you anything, but it does mean that you have a right to ask for it, look for it,  bend a relationship thru respectual negotiations, break a relationship if necessary etc. Whether you have the right to buy it comes with real-world consequenecs that open a whole new can of worms, but the idea that sexual repression is a panacea is problematic.

Comment #292: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  02:20 PM

But prostitution is really an offshoot of the sex as commodities thing. It’s exists because sex is a commodity even if it’s ideally the proper regulation of the sex item. I brought the game comparison earlier. If you spend forty hours slaying monsters and completing quests to earn the magical shield of awesomeness you benefit not only by whatever the shield gives you but also in experience and skill gained from the time you put into playing. Now there’s another player with cash to burn that doesn’t want to waste time earning the MSA (because that’s so fucking boring man) so they just buy it. They never get the same skills and are worse players because of it, which might just hurt them but it also could hurt any group they’re playing in; lazy players don’t pull their weight. That’s your daters vs.your johns. One group is put a little time and effort into getting something valuable and the other just wants the prize because it’s a prize and they should have it. Prostitutes are the people who sold moneybags up there the MSA. They put in the time and skill to get it and now they’re going to sell it for as much as they can get. You can’t really blame them for wanting to make actual money off something intangible and infinite as a item in a computer game or a sexual favor but their existence depends on there being douche-bags who would rather hand over some cash then actually work toward the objective of something they’re doing for fun in the first place.

The thing is, I don’t see how this is any different than a lot of jobs. Clergy have their jobs because a lot of immature douchebags want to live forever. Criminal defense lawyers have their jobs, at least in part, because of a lot of guilty douchebags want to get off or get off light. Many accountants have their jobs because a lot of douchebags want to pay less than their fair share in taxes.

Yes, making money off of douchebags is a prominent feature of a capitalist economy. You figure out what people want to buy and you sell it to them. Unless we are going to go to a full blown Marxist system, I don’t see how this is going to change. You would have to show why selling sex to a douchebag (or a non-douchebag, such as a couple who wants the thrill of a threesome or a gay male who can’t come out in his conservative community but wants a same-sex sexual contact or a seriously disabled guy who wants to lose his virginity) is somehow wrong in a way that selling other things that douchebags want is not.

What is, unfortunately, also a feature of a capitalist economy is exploitation of labor. And the way you deal with that is with regulations that make it more difficult to exploit labor. As I said, the regulations in Nevada are far from ideal (they are way too anti-sex worker for my taste), but they at least demonstrate that it is possible to use the law to make prostitution expensive (so that sex workers earn a fair wage) and safe.

If you instead respond to exploitation of labor by banning the entire industry, you make the exploitation of labor problem worse. Drug dealers, the mafia, and illegal prostitution operations often basically enslave their workforce and use extreme acts of violence to force people to do their bidding. In any enterprise where you need to have an extreme capability of violence merely to exist and resist the actions of the government to put you out of business, it becomes very easy to utilize that same capability to oppress your workers.

This whole discussion is the discussion of middle and upper class women who don’t like the idea that THEY might be perceived to be engaging in transactional sex. And that’s a valid concern—a world where women are always perceived as the sellers produces precisely the harms that Amanda identifies in her post.

The problem is it neither accurately describes a world where a lot of sexual activity (including lots of things other than PIV sex between a female prostitute and a male john) IS explicitly or implicitly transactional, nor does it identify the actual ethical problems with certain forms of transactional sex.

Comment #293: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  02:21 PM

continuing myself from #291: So, comment 99, 101, 107, 108, all were varyingly offensive.  I got to #125 and wondered if we were dealing with a non-native speaker, which then allows, in my mind, for more leeway and patient explaining.

Comment #294: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  02:23 PM

Oh, and what ArielNYC said.

Comment #295: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  02:23 PM

The Ron and Hermione example is really off.  Theirs is a different world where physical courage really matters.  There is embodied evil and you have to fight it.  Ron, for all his other faults, is courageous as hell.  He didn’t know he’d live through sacrificing himself in the chess game or confronting his worst fear in giant spiders.  Some of the other boys would no doubt be better matches in our world.  But in Hermiones life having a man who she knows will fight to his death to save her matters a lot. 

Now this also plays into the adolescent boy’s fantasy that the only thing that matters is courage and that should win you the lady.  But in a world as dangerous as Rowling’s that quality is actually important, and you can expect fighting together and watching their friends die would keep them together, even if they aren’t so well suited.  Its not like they met in NYC bar and just happened to fall for each other.

Comment #296: rivelino  on  07/21  at  02:39 PM

This actually reminds me a bit the oneline discussiosn regarding mismatched libidos in a relationship.  You sometime see this hand-waving attitude of “eh, just masturbate.” Which strikes me as misguided and callous, whether applied to men or women. You’re basically asking people to repress normal human desires. 
Comment #293: ArielNYC on 07/21 at 02:20 PM

<blockquote>And on the other side, you have somebody having to fuck when they’d rather not. This is a far graver problem. Your “natural human desire” to unload can be taken care of by your hand. The other person’s natural human desire to not fuck when they don’t want to can only be taken care of by not fucking when they don’t want to.

Comment #297: snobographer  on  07/21  at  02:43 PM

This whole discussion is the discussion of middle and upper class women who don’t like the idea that THEY might be perceived to be engaging in transactional sex.
Comment #294: Dilan Esper on 07/21 at 02:21 PM

Nice try, but johns and pimps don’t typically cruise upscale gated communities.

Comment #298: snobographer  on  07/21  at  02:47 PM

And on the other side, you have somebody having to fuck when they’d rather not.

This statement depends entirely on the premise that someone who is willing to fuck you for X amount of money is someone “who would rather not”.

Would Jackie Kennedy “rather not” have fucked Aristotle Onassis?

Nice try, but johns and pimps don’t typically cruise upscale gated communities.

I think you managed not only to miss my point, but to miss Amanda’s as well.

The concern expressed in the OP is about how a world where sex is perceived as something that women sell and men buy has bad consequences for women who are not interested in selling sex (i.e., women with conventional middle class and upper class bourgeoisie values). Which is quite true. And which doesn’t depend—one bit—as to whether the johns and pimps are located in any particular neighborhood.

That said, I would also say that your statement is laughably wrong. If you live in any reasonably populated town, city, suburb, or exurb in America, someone is probably explicitly selling sex within a 2 mile radius, and most probably many people are.

Comment #299: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  02:55 PM

So women of lower income backgrounds are “unconventional” and more interested in selling sex than women from middle and upper-class backgrounds is what you’re saying? On what exactly are you basing that?

And money is not a substitute for consent and Jackie Kennedy had plenty of money of her own without having to fuck Aristotle Onassis.

Comment #300: snobographer  on  07/21  at  03:01 PM

“I do find it a bit provocatiev to say that my desire to have sex is by itself a form of entitlement.”

Did I miss something?  Who said that?  There’s nothing wrong with desiring to have sex.  There is something wrong with thinking that you are entitled to have sex.

Comment #301: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  03:22 PM

@snobographer

“And on the other side, you have somebody having to fuck when they’d rather not. This is a far graver problem. “

What part of “that doesn’t mean anyone owes you anything” was I not clear about? Nobody owes you sex and nobody owes you sexual repression. If there’s no meeting of the minds, then a couple should part ways rather than torture each other.

Comment #302: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  03:23 PM

So women of lower income backgrounds are “unconventional” and more interested in selling sex than women from middle and upper-class backgrounds is what you’re saying? On what exactly are you basing that?

And money is not a substitute for consent and Jackie Kennedy had plenty of money of her own without having to fuck Aristotle Onassis.

I don’t think its possible to misread things more than you are doing right now.

It isn’t that women of lower income backgrounds have any particular viewpoint on selling sex. It’s that the perception that women are the “sellers” of sex is most damaging to women, such as Amanda and other middle and upper class women, who are able to participate in the relatively egalitarian dating and relationship world that prevails in major urban centers in America. For other women, with different backgrounds, this is either low on the list of priorities or may even be something that some of them are able to take advantage of.

As for Jackie and Aristotle, you might want to read up about the reasons—which were well publicized at the time—why they got together. (Among other things, compared to the lifestyle she felt she had to lead as a President’s widow, she really didn’t have anywhere near the money you think she did.) Let’s just say that the model of “enthusiastic consent” basically offers no descriptive accuracy whatsoever as to their relationship.

The point is, if you define any sex that is procured as part of a transaction as “nonconsensual”, which you have to do to make the argument that you made, i.e., “Your “natural human desire” to unload can be taken care of by your hand. The other person’s natural human desire to not fuck when they don’t want to can only be taken care of by not fucking when they don’t want to.”, then you are basically defining a whole bunch of consensual sexual acts, perceived by their participants as consensual, as quasi-rapes. That just doesn’t work.

Once you take away the assumption that someone who is compensated to have sex with you doesn’t “want” to have sex with you, your argument fails.

Comment #303: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  03:24 PM

“Nice try, but johns and pimps don’t typically cruise upscale gated communities.”  True, but only because they’re probably using the Internet.

Comment #304: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  03:25 PM

“And on the other side, you have somebody having to fuck when they’d rather not. This is a far graver problem. “

What part of “that doesn’t mean anyone owes you anything” was I not clear about? Nobody owes you sex and nobody owes you sexual repression. If there’s no meeting of the minds, then a couple should part ways rather than torture each other.

Comment #303: ArielNYC on 07/21 at 03:23 PM

The part where you spend about a hundred times more words and page space expressing concern about the pronger being deprived than about the prongee taking an unwanted pronging.

Comment #305: snobographer  on  07/21  at  03:35 PM

@ Kit-Kat

”  “I do find it a bit provocatiev to say that my desire to have sex is by itself a form of entitlement.”
  Did I miss something?  Who said that? “

I was referring to line “If you need sexual release, you can take care of that yourself.” The way I read it, it says that masturbation is sufficient to quench sexual desire, and if you’re not satisfied with that you’re entitled.
So I guess it depends on whether you think “I’m not happy just masturbating” is a form of “thinking that you are entitled to have sex.”

 

Comment #306: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  03:35 PM

No, you’re only entitled if you think that you’re entitled to sex with anyone other than your hand.

Comment #307: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  03:39 PM

So women of lower income backgrounds are “unconventional” and more interested in selling sex than women from middle and upper-class backgrounds is what you’re saying? On what exactly are you basing that?
Comment #301: snobographer on 07/21 at 03:01 PM

I don’t think its possible to misread things more than you are doing right now.

Comment #304: Dilan Esper on 07/21 at 03:24 PM

women who are not interested in selling sex (i.e., women with conventional middle class and upper class bourgeoisie values).
Comment #300: Dilan Esper on 07/21 at 02:55 PM

Once you take away the assumption that someone who is compensated to have sex with you doesn’t “want” to have sex with you, your argument fails.

If they wanted to fuck you, you wouldn’t have to pay them to do it.

Comment #308: snobographer  on  07/21  at  03:40 PM

Having been at the lower income scale, really low, as a pre-teen and teen girl, no, having people not assume that just because I was female my sexuality was for sale was not low on the list of priorities.  It would have been really damn nice.  Dilan, you are now being a classist ass as well as a sexist one.  I know you are not trying to be, ‘cause you have history here.

Comment #309: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  03:47 PM

Dilan is just another John desperately trying to rationalize his nasty habit of purchasing human beings.

They’re faking their enthusiam, Dilan, no matter their social strata. That’s what you’re paying for, along with being able to fuck someone who was raped as a child.

Comment #310: judybrowni  on  07/21  at  03:48 PM

So Dilan Esper seems to be complaining (or mansplaining) at great length that Amanda is wrong to say all heterosexual sex is transactional because, outside of her cozy middle class world with quaint ideas like ‘consent’, sex IS transactional.  OK.  Amanda says it’s buying and selling, he says it’s buying and selling, why is he wasting so many words disagreeing with the OP?

Comment #311: Nutella  on  07/21  at  03:53 PM

@kit-kat

“No, you’re only entitled if you think that you’re entitled to sex with anyone other than your hand.”

Your tautlogy doesn’t really clarify anything. Do you diagree with the way I read the statement to mean that masturbation is good enough?

Comment #312: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  04:07 PM

Because he is saying that in some instances buying and selling are okay, just doing so in a really, and becoming progressively more, offensive way.

Comment #313: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  04:07 PM

It means that masterbation is all you are entitled to, that you don’t deserve more just because you want more.  Only if the other person wants more, and that more with you, are you entitled to more.  Grow the fuck up, twit.

Comment #314: helen w. h.  on  07/21  at  04:09 PM

@helen w. h.

I was critiquing the statement that one should just masturbate to mean that masturbation is good enough and if you’re not happy with that, if you want more, then this desire is by itself is a form of entitlement. I argued this is attitude is misguided, and that while nobody owes you anything,  you do have every right to want and ask. To quote the sociologist Clint Eastwood, “Deserve’s got nothing to do with It.”

You’re welcome to disagree with the way I read the statement. Nice talking to you.

Comment #315: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  04:26 PM

@315 helen w.h. - But I WANT chocolate ice cream!

Comment #316: snobographer  on  07/21  at  04:28 PM

@316 0 Want in one hand and jerk off with the other. Problem solved. Next!

Comment #317: snobographer  on  07/21  at  04:50 PM

Dilan is just another John desperately trying to rationalize his nasty habit of purchasing human beings. They’re faking their enthusiam, Dilan, no matter their social strata. That’s what you’re paying for, along with being able to fuck someone who was raped as a child.

First of all, I don’t have any such nasty habit. I’m actually more interested in creating a world where sex transactions are fair for women. If I were a John, in contrast, my interests would definitely not lie in drastically increasing the price of prostitution and the compensation of prostitutes (which I favor).

Second of all, again, lots of people fake their enthusiasm. In the sexual context, how many people fake orgasms? How many people pretend to be into sex they aren’t into to please their partners? How many people have sex with rich people they aren’t really attracted to because they want the lifestyle that comes along with it. The point is, these encounters are CONSENSUAL. They aren’t rapes, even if one person is pretending to be excited.

Third, while it is definitely true that many sex workers were abused as children, the current legal regime and the ethical condemnation behind ensures that they will continue to be abused as adults.

Comment #318: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  04:53 PM

you do have every right to want and ask.

So what? We’re not talking about wanting or asking. If you need validation that badly, get a dog.

Comment #319: junk science  on  07/21  at  04:56 PM

So Dilan Esper seems to be complaining (or mansplaining) at great length that Amanda is wrong to say all heterosexual sex is transactional because, outside of her cozy middle class world with quaint ideas like ‘consent’, sex IS transactional.  OK.  Amanda says it’s buying and selling, he says it’s buying and selling, why is he wasting so many words disagreeing with the OP?

Amanda thinks the solution to the problems she is complaining about is, in part, to condemn the transactional aspects of sex (and sometimes to make them illegal).

I think—and I think ArielNYC agrees with me—that the solution is to recognize that sex will often be transactional and to try and make the terms of such transactions far more favorable to women.

Amanda’s solution will benefit primarily middle class and upper class cosmopolitan women who suffer the injury of being taken as sellers of sex (a real injury). My solution will benefit a lot of women, including women of all social classes, who could benefit from their sexual transactions being negotiated with fairer terms.

Comment #320: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  04:57 PM

Because legally commodifying women decommodifies women… somehow.

Comment #321: snobographer  on  07/21  at  04:58 PM

In the sexual context, how many people fake orgasms? How many people pretend to be into sex they aren’t into to please their partners?

I like how “women” are suddenly “people.” I can just imagine the uproar if someone suggested men fake orgasms to please female partners who can’t get them off. Men’s sexual pleasure is not to be toyed with.

Comment #322: junk science  on  07/21  at  05:04 PM

@junk science

“you do have every right to want and ask.
So what? We’re not talking about wanting or asking. If you need validation that badly, get a dog.

Youre equating the basic human desire for sex with the companionship of a dog.
For the unmpeenth time, this is what I objected to:
“If you need sexual release, you can take care of that yourself”
I argued that this implies that masturbation is good enough, and wanting more is a form of entitlement.

If you actually have something constructive to say, great.

Comment #323: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  05:12 PM

“I was critiquing the statement that one should just masturbate to mean that masturbation is good enough and if you’re not happy with that, if you want more, then this desire is by itself is a form of entitlement. I argued this is attitude is misguided, and that while nobody owes you anything,  you do have every right to want and ask.”

I disagree with how you read the original statement.  I can’t see it as saying that wanting sex is itself a form of entitlement.  You have every right to want.  You have the right to ask, with some limitations, because sometimes even asking is demonstrating entitlement, if you ask in a way that is threatening, or if you ask someone who has already expressed, either directly to you or in some other way, that they do not wish to be asked or that they are not interested (for example, the Rebecca Watson elevator guy incident), or otherwise asking someone in a totally inappropriate context or manner.  But you have zero right to believe that you are entitled to a “yes.”  Ever.  Because no one is.

Comment #324: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  05:13 PM

And actually, I think a lot of lower-class women suffer from the double standard of the OP.  It’s no less an injury for a poor woman to be treated like a prostitute than it is for a middle-class woman to be so treated.  Not all poor women sell sex, but many poor women are trapped in the same structure of sexual relations in which they are presumed to be for sale to any man who can pay the price (and men often expect that their price should lower than that of an middle-class woman.)

Comment #325: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  05:17 PM

Youre equating the basic human desire for sex with the companionship of a dog.

No, I’m suggesting that if you need feminists to hold your hand and tell you it’s okay to want sex, you’d get better validation from a dog. As it is, you’re annoying and don’t have much to contribute yourself.

Comment #326: junk science  on  07/21  at  05:20 PM

I’ll put my neck on the prositution chopping block again:

I think the dispute is about whether, in a world where every prostitute was afforded safety and good pay, we would still outlaw prostitution because of the way it would tar women as a whole as sellers of sex, encourage debasement of women, etc (negative externalities, if you will). And it ties in with consummerization of sex in general.
I think I understand where opponents come from, but I’m also reminded of sexually-conservative women who think that promiscuous women/women who perform conventional femininity put pressure on them to be more sexual and how unfair that is. It’s not really a perfect analogy, but something to think about in the context of slut shaming.

Comment #327: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  05:36 PM

Because legally commodifying women decommodifies women… somehow.

You need to be less snarky and actually make an argument.

It’s SEX that is commodified, not women. Note that the sex industry includes quite a lot of men who have sex with men. (I’ll leave out the gigolos and the male strippers, because somehow the fact that there are fewer of those is taken here as some sort of proof that they are irrelevant.) And it is commodfiied, and will continue to be commodified, whether or not prostitution has any particular legal status, because we are human beings and as human beings we often engage in sexual relations for transactional reasons.

Seriously, you can no more stop humans from engaging in transactional sex than the religious right can stop humans from engaging in non-marital sex. Any general theory of sexuality has to deal with that fact and not suppress it.

Now, women are commodified too—but only under a legal regime where all commodified sex must be operated in a quasi-legal or illegal fashion. This creates a situation where prostitutes can be abused and enslaved.

What needs to be done is to separate the transactional nature of sex from the transacting of women, and then to use every tool at our disposal to make sexual transactions fairer to women.

I like how “women” are suddenly “people.” I can just imagine the uproar if someone suggested men fake orgasms to please female partners who can’t get them off. Men’s sexual pleasure is not to be toyed with.

http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/columns/nakedcity/n_9882/

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23263473/

There’s plenty of evidence men fake orgasms too.

In any event, my point about fake orgasms—which actually have interesting feminist implications that I am not really trying to address—was simply that the presence of fake orgasms is not necessarily an indicator that sex is nonconsensual or that there is something morally wrong about it.

Comment #328: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  05:44 PM

“It’s SEX that is commodified, not women.”

HA HA! You’re cute!

Comment #329: snobographer  on  07/21  at  05:45 PM

Unfortunately, even where prostitution is legal, Holland, for instance—the women are trafficked:

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/netherl.htm

So legalization alone doesn’t stop the buying and selling of what amount to sex slaves.

Comment #330: judybrowni  on  07/21  at  05:51 PM

Dilan,

You are so disingenuous about enthusiastic consent.  I explained it to you repeatedly, for example on the Creep thread, and you *never* engaged with my posts, directed to you by name.

Enthusiastic consent is how you measure whether or not you are raping or sexually assaulting someone.

Enthusiastic consent does not require, for example, that a woman thinks that her partner is a combination of Richard Feynman and Ryan Gosling, and has Chris Evans’ abs who she cannot physically restrain herself from sexing all the time.

Enthusiastic consent is a way to tell if the person is truly consenting to sex, that is to say, not just refraining from saying no, or only saying no a few times, or having a PTSD epidsode.  It is full, uncoerced participation.  It is a yardstick to tell whether the person is actually consenting, it is not a requirement that the person love you or even like you, it is that they are consenting, affirmatively, energetically, and enthusiastically through their words and actions. 

Enthusiastic consent is an act or set of acts and words.

Basically, the point is that the default is “no” and if you want to make sure your partner is not in the default state of “no” you look for enthusiastic participation, desist if their participation ceases or could possibly be a result of even perceived coercion.

So to analogize, let’s say I want to find out if a coworker is consenting to a division of labor on a project.  Because I am a good coworker.  And I say, hey, can I do x and you do y?  If I care about my coworker, and they say “okay” but in a sort of down tone, not being an asshole, I would ask “oh, is that too much given the rest of your workload?  Or would you rather do x?”  And then have a conversation from there. 

If I don’t clarify, I don’t know if my coworker really is consenting to x, or feels like they don’t have a choice.  In the workplace, if I were a jerk, I wouldn’t care.  But if I were trying to find out what was in their head, we all know what I would do to find out.

Enthusiastic consent merely applies that same principle of “trying to understand what people are thinking” to sex.

It ain’t rocket science.

Comment #331: Ismone  on  07/21  at  05:55 PM

Ismone:

I agree with that. Indeed, there was a New Jersey rape law that was a popular topic when I was in law school, that required affirmative, freely given consent (i.e., a “yes”, rather than just the absence “no”), for sexual activity. As I recall, I was one of maybe 3 people in a 100 person, mixed gender criminal law classroom who defended the law.

But I don’t see how that besmirches transactional sex acts. In other words, if a person is enthusiastic about doing something for someone because he or she is receiving something valuable in return, how is that not enthusiastic consent?

It would be in my book. But my reading as to how Amanda defines “enthusiastic consent”, and how many commentators define it, is that it would not be. If it’s a transaction, then ergo, one partner doesn’t want to do it, and ergo, there’s no enthusiastic consent.

Comment #332: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  06:07 PM

Let me try to rephrase that. In Amanada’s words, we should strive for a world where “everyone is kind of selling a little, but no one is cast as a buyer.” And I heartily agree. So my question, how do we get more men to sell and more women to buy? I think that as a guy you uphold the existing model not necessarily because you want to, not necessarily because you enjoy the chase,  but because you learn that this is how our society works. If you want to be with a girl, you’ll have work for it (that is, assuming you’tr the average guy). If you sit on your hands, nothing will happen. If you wait for women to contact you on the internet, you’ll get nothing. If you wait for a girl to approach you at a bar, you’ll get nothing. So there’s social conditioning that’s baked into the cake.  So I’m wondering how this dynamic is going to change.
Comment #223: ArielNYC on 07/20 at 09:44 PM

Men and women aren’t separate species.  They can actually be friends!  And do things together!

If you know women, and are not a jerk, one will almost certainly find you interesting and show some interest.  If you aren’t noticing this, either you may be a jerk, or you’re not noticing the women who are interested in you for some reason.

Comment #333: oldfeminist  on  07/21  at  06:08 PM

@ismone - He thinks accepting money is the same thing as enthusiastic consent. There’s no talking to him.

Comment #334: snobographer  on  07/21  at  06:16 PM

He thinks accepting money is the same thing as enthusiastic consent. There’s no talking to him.

You misread everything, don’t you?

I think accepting money (or more accurately, the transactional nature of sex acts—not all transactional sex acts involve money) is generally tangential to enthusiastic consent. It’s possible to enthusiastically consent to acts that are transactional in nature.

Comment #335: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  06:20 PM

In other words, if a person is enthusiastic about doing something for someone because he or she is receiving something valuable in return, how is that not enthusiastic consent?

Comment #333: Dilan Esper on 07/21 at 06:07 PM

Duh! You’re not enthusiastically consenting to getting fucked, you’re consenting to taking money which, if you’re a prostitute, you probably need to placate your pimp, and/or feed yourself and/or your children, and/or assuage your drug habit.

Think, boy, think!

Comment #336: snobographer  on  07/21  at  06:20 PM

Money is not a substitute for consent. Learn it.

Comment #337: snobographer  on  07/21  at  06:21 PM

Because you and others keep saying that some men can never get enthusiastic consent, because they aren’t exciting.

That isn’t true.  If you can’t get enthusiastic consent, it is because someone doesn’t want to fuck you.

So the idea that men buy prostitutes because they could get “consent” but not “enthusiastic consent” is a nasty, rapey one.

You seem to be making two points (1) some sex that does not involve explicit selling but that is transactional cannot be enthusiastically consented to, (2) explicitly sold sex cannot be enthusiastically consented to.  I disagree.  Since enthusiastic consent is a standard for making sure you aren’t raping, not for mindreading. 

With regard to transactional sex, which you normalize, I don’t, and I don’t think Amanda has problems with it because we think someone cannot express enthusiastic consent under those circumstances.  As an ethical matter, entirely separate in my mind from enthusiastic consent, I don’t think it is okay to use things to obtain sex from people.  Sometimes because it is coercive, but other times because it is not respecting the person as another whole person, an equal partner in the sex act.  So it is a different, but related, norm.

Enthusiastic consent is a yardstick for communication.  If you want to talk about other ethical issues involved in causing people to communicate enthusiastic even though they don’t want to—well, that is a related issue, but NO ONE on this thread has taken the Twisty position on sex.

This has to do with another feminist issue—PROSTITUTES/SEX WORKERS CAN STILL BE RAPED.  So, in the context of transactional sex, as you call it, or sex with a prostitute or sex worker, there is still a matter of what that person is willing to sell.  And the customer has the obligation (perhaps even a higher obligation, because of the power dynamic in the relationship) to ensure that he or she is obtaining something that the seller is willing to sell, which once again, is measured through signs of active, non-coerced participation.

The reason you pissing all over enthusiastic consent provokes such a strong reaction is because you are basically misdefining it in such a way as to argue that it isn’t really the yardstick.  And if you honestly, truly don’t want to rape someone or don’t want to encourage someone else to rape someone, well, PLEASE STOP DOING THAT.

Enthusiastic consent is a FAR BETTER anti-rape and anti-sexual assault standard than “S/HE DIDN’T SAY NO.”  If you care about people not being harmed, whether or not they are having transactional or non-transactional sex, you should support that standard.

PS—This applies to women interacting with men, too.  I don’t want to do something that makes my male partners uncomfortable, whether they are the love of my life, or (more often) not.  I don’t want to cause someone to flash back to an unpleasant prior experience, sexual trauma, or to even go along with something that is unpleasant for them.  It is called giving a fuck.  It is for everyone, not just the ladeez.

Comment #338: Ismone  on  07/21  at  06:24 PM

I disagree with others who conflate enthusiastic consent with true desire, because I think that gets into false-consciousness issues.

While they are interesting, and important, and while I do not think that prostituted sex is usually consented to freely from an agency standpoint, and that customers abuse their power, I would like to separate that issue from the very basic one that follows:

Do I know that, for whatever reason, the person I am engaging with consents to this activity and isn’t just all frozen up?

If the answer is no, you stop.

If the answer is yes, in my mind the second step would be to ask whether the consent that is being communicated is being freely given.  You seem to think it doesn’t matter.  I think it does, but I think it is a level beyond measuring consent.

Comment #339: Ismone  on  07/21  at  06:28 PM

Can I just say that after reading through 340 comments, including two of my own, Dilan Esper and ArielNYC are really fucking creepy people?

aimai

Comment #340: aimai  on  07/21  at  06:43 PM

1. Again, I agree that enthusiastic consent is a far better anti-rape and anti-sexual assault standard than “s/he didn’t say no”. That was what I was trying to put forth by pointing to my law school experience.

2. You are right that our disagreement is that I think transactional, consensual sex is normal. (I don’t think I “normalize” it; I think it is normal whatever I might think about it, but that’s a quibble.) And bear in mind, that category is broad. Yes, female, PIV prostitution is a form of transactional sex. So is a “happy ending” at a massage parlor. So is gay male prostitution. So is a lap dance at a strip club. So are gigolos and male strippers. So is paying for a dominatrix to take you into her dungeon. So is paying to be a part of a swingers’ gangbang. So is making porn videos—of all sorts, including lesbian and feminist porn. So is “gold-digging” (a word I hate for its sexist implications, but which I think you know what I mean). So is taking on a “sugar daddy” (ditto on the fact that I hate the word). So are many acts that partners perform for each other as part of Dan Savage’s manifesto of being “GGG”. So is a lot of marital and relationship sex (believe it or not, plenty of people perform sex acts in exchange for favors that are done for them within the relationship, or withhold sex from someone who is being lazy).

So yeah, I think a fair amount of the consensual sex in the world is transactional. In some of those interactions, both partners enjoy it anyway. In many others, only one partner does. But it’s still a transaction.

As a result, I think a good theory of sexuality has to account for all the transactional sex out there and impose a consent standard that consensual transactional sex can meet.

3. I think you are being way overbroad when you say someone can’t enthusiastically consent when compensation is on the table. As I said above, do you think Jackie Kennedy could not enthusiastically consent to fuck Aristotle Onassis? Do you think, more broadly, that in every situation ever where money was explicitly or implicitly part of the change, there’s no way that enthusiastic consent could ever happen?

That strikes me as a denial of female agency. I understand that this is not how prostitution works in most places now (again, I think, due in large part to the fact that it is illegal and controlled by violent slave-masters), but are you saying that a woman can never decide that fucking someone is worth a specific sum of money? How about a gay man? Can he never decide the same thing? Are you saying that they don’t understand the transaction? That the money will always unduly influence them?

And if money is inherently coercive, why is that not seen that way when we are talking about any other form of labor? We can consent to run the risk of black lung disease and work in a coal mine in exchange for money. We can consent to run the risk of fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan in exchange for money. Is money inherently coercive in those situations? What is it about a sex act that makes it different?

4. Here’s the thing—I think you are constructing a bunch of straw men in arguing against me. I think prostitutes can be raped and are raped all the time. And the justice system treats them terribly. But you know what? I think a major reason for that is that prostitution is illegal. It’s not the only reason for it—I am not sure, for instance, how the Amsterdam police or the Thai police treat claims of rape at their brothels or after-hours rapes of sex workers. But it’s definitely worse if (a) the prostitute doesn’t even want to go to the police because she is doing something illegal and her pimp might take retribution if she does, (b) the police don’t believe her because prostitution is considered disreputable and/or that she “deserved” it because they assume she tried to charge the guy a fee and he refused to pay, and (c) prosecutors won’t prosecute because they are afraid the jury would never believe a prostitute claiming rape. And all those things are more likely to happen in places where prostitution is illegal.

There are a bunch of sex workers in this world who are getting absolutely shit on by legal systems that start from the premise of the immorality of selling sex and do little to address the consequences of that position. As a result, millions of people around the world are enslaved, performing a service cheaply and under appalling conditions that should be expensive and carefully regulated. I have to think there’s a better way.

Comment #341: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  06:45 PM

Ok, one more thing to say. I don’t want to be accused of essentialism but I would like to try out this analogy so I’ll try it out without genders.

Someone wants a baby really badly. A little little baby. And he/she can’t have one themselves.  Somewhere else a woman in dire poverty gives birth to a baby. She loves her baby and wants to keep it. The first person comes to her and offers her money for the baby and under duress—she’s starving, her family is starving, she’s threatened with death if she doesn’t give up the baby—she gives up the baby.  And she accepts money for the baby.

It seems to me that this is exactly the scenario that Dilan Esper and Ariel NYC are ok with when the desired “thing” is sex. But I’m really sure that they wouldn’t be so all fired libertarian-ist (that is: my money gives me the right to buy things which otherwise are not for sale) about this transaction. 

aimai

Comment #342: aimai  on  07/21  at  06:47 PM

“True, but pimps and johns don’t usually cruise gated communities.”

Crap. I went looking for both comments and lost them both, but here’s the response.

“No, but that’s probably because they’re cruising the internet. “

This is THE POINT…..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................This is YOU.

And here’s B405: “So you don’t believe there are men out there who can’t find sexual partners?”

It’s not that they can’t find sexual partners. It’s that they’re not entitled to them.  A sexual person to use as a masturbation aid is not a right enshrined in the constitution.

I’m amazed at the dudes who act like telling them to masturbate is way worse than them using whatever means to coerce a partner into sex.

Comment #343: ginmar  on  07/21  at  06:48 PM

It seems to me that this is exactly the scenario that Dilan Esper and Ariel NYC are ok with when the desired “thing” is sex. But I’m really sure that they wouldn’t be so all fired libertarian-ist (that is: my money gives me the right to buy things which otherwise are not for sale) about this transaction. 

It’s a characterization difference. (And I honestly think this may be at the very heart of the dispute.)

If you characterize prostitution as a sale of a woman, then I agree, it’s almost exactly the same as selling a baby (the only material difference being that you could still argue that an adult woman has a right to sell herself while nobody has the right to sell a child).

But if you characterize prostitution as the sale of LABOR, it’s totally different. Then the analogy is to other labor markets—especially illegal ones—where there is a ton of exploitation, and the solution is to regulate away the exploitation rather than prohibit the sale.

Comment #344: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  06:54 PM

Comment #343: aimai on 07/21 at 06:47 PM


Better analogy: Dilan Esper is broke. Broke as the day is long. Lost his job, hasn’t found another one in over a year, his employment compensation’s run out, he doesn’t quite qualify for welfare or food stamps, has nobody he can borrow from, and he’s already spent everything he has and sold everything of value he owns.
A dude saunters up and kindly offers Dilan the opportunity to suck his knob for $1000. Desperate and starving and on the brink of being evicted, Dilan accepts.

Dilan wants to call that consent.

Comment #345: snobographer  on  07/21  at  07:00 PM

^Actually, make that $20, because that’s more like what Dilan wants for women.

Comment #346: snobographer  on  07/21  at  07:01 PM

@345 “But if you characterize prostitution as the sale of LABOR, it’s totally different.”

If you dehumanize prostituted women, it totally makes it sound okay. :D

Comment #347: snobographer  on  07/21  at  07:10 PM

Dilan,

I clearly DIDN’T say someone could not express enthusiastic consent if there was money on the table.  My entire criticism of you is that you are creating a false definition of enthusiastic consent, and rejecting it in ALL circumstances, because you claim it doesn’t pertain to transactional sex, which you further posit is okay.

My response is simple:

1)  Enthusiastic consent, a standard of communication, can occur even in transactional sex;
2)  Transactional sex is highly problematic for reasons having to do with whether that consent is *valid* or not, not with whether the standard of communicating consent is met;
3)  Enthusiastic consent and the validity of consent are related, but IMO not coextensive concepts;
4)  For the sake of justifying transactional sex, which I and many others think is morally horrible, you misdefine enthusiastic consent, which means you LOWER THE BAR FOR CONSENT;
5)  Lowering the bar for consent is really, really horrible, and I am asking you to stop.

Please.  Stop.

Comment #348: Ismone  on  07/21  at  07:11 PM

+^@346 & 347- And it wouldn’t be Dilan who’s commodified in that situation, it would be SEX! Or labor or whatever. Right, Dilan?

Comment #349: snobographer  on  07/21  at  07:13 PM

Dilan,

Here is what I think is really your problem with enthusiastic consent.  It makes an issue out of the bought person, and their agency.

Once you acknowledge that the bought person has agency to be respected, then you have to start wondering about how free that agency is.

Instead, you prefer to ignore those questions altogether, and to treat prostitution/sex work like it is labor, without presenting any evidence that it is like any other form of labor.  Considering the fact that so many prostitutes start out underage, or as rape and molest victims, or trafficked, or all of the above, it clearly is not.  Considering the high rates of PTSD, assault, and sexual assault, it clearly is not.

And yes, I would have almost as much of a problem with labor of any kind that someone “chose” because they were abused or forced into it at the age of 12.

We know that sex work is different, because when we listen to sex workers experiences and when we look at the data about their well-being, and hell, when we look at the legal liability they are exposing themselves to by being sex workers, we can see that all of these factors make them vulnerable.

By taking the view that “transactional sex is okay” you are ignoring all of that.  And that is super, super convenient for you. 

THE TRANSACTIONAL MODEL, IN AND OF ITSELF, DENIES THE HUMANITY OF THE PERSON BEING TRANSACTED.  That is why we have a problem with it.  That is what Amanda is attacking in this post—that you cannot treat people, or their sexual expression, like a commodity.  Because it is harmful. 

That does not mean that we have to prove that it is equally harmful in all contexts, or that there aren’t some sex workers that really enjoy sex work.  The point is that enthusiastic consent, and the norms that flow from it, start down the slippery slope that requires the BUYER to BEWARE that they may be harming another human being.

All you are saying is that because sexuality is transactional in some situations, it should be.  And we should shape our expression of consent around transactions.  What I am saying is that people have a universal obligation not to harm other people, and that people who harm other people should not be given license to do so, and we should have norms about how harming people, or being blind to the possibility of harm in the face of overwhelming evidence, is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Comment #350: Ismone  on  07/21  at  07:21 PM

I clearly DIDN’T say someone could not express enthusiastic consent if there was money on the table.  My entire criticism of you is that you are creating a false definition of enthusiastic consent, and rejecting it in ALL circumstances, because you claim it doesn’t pertain to transactional sex, which you further posit is okay.

My response is simple:

1)  Enthusiastic consent, a standard of communication, can occur even in transactional sex;
2)  Transactional sex is highly problematic for reasons having to do with whether that consent is *valid* or not, not with whether the standard of communicating consent is met;
3)  Enthusiastic consent and the validity of consent are related, but IMO not coextensive concepts;
4)  For the sake of justifying transactional sex, which I and many others think is morally horrible, you misdefine enthusiastic consent, which means you LOWER THE BAR FOR CONSENT;
5)  Lowering the bar for consent is really, really horrible, and I am asking you to stop.

Please.  Stop.

1. I don’t want to lower the bar for consent. So long as the standard enthusiastic consent allows for transactional sex if the consent is clearly there, I’m fine with it. Bear in mind, I would take this position even if I thought transactional sex were immoral—simply because a lot of people engage in it. I don’t want to label the consensual activities of millions of people as a form of rape.

But if we aren’t doing that, I definitely DO want the standard for consent to be high and definitely AGREE that it should be about “yes” and not the absence of “no”. I have consistently taken that position for a long time.

2. I don’t think you can say, across the board, that transactional sex is “morally horrible”, without saying WHY it is morally horrible. And without dealing with forms of it that I think clearly are not morally horrible (e.g., especially the types of transactions that don’t involve explicit prostitution).

3. I think I can criticize your moral reasoning about transactional sex without backing away from a strong standard for consent to sex.

Comment #351: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  07:24 PM

Here is what I think is really your problem with enthusiastic consent.  It makes an issue out of the bought person, and their agency.

Once you acknowledge that the bought person has agency to be respected, then you have to start wondering about how free that agency is.

You are assuming your conclusion here. The labor is bought, not the person. That is a key dispute here. In situations where the person is bought, I agree, that’s wrong (and I’m not too interested in arguments that people are allowed to sell themselves into slavery either).

But part of my argument is that the illegality of prostitution increases the amount of slavery in the business.

Instead, you prefer to ignore those questions altogether, and to treat prostitution/sex work like it is labor, without presenting any evidence that it is like any other form of labor.

I think this both overstates things and understates things. Prostitution and other forms of sex work are like many other forms of labor, in that people are paid to render services. They are also different than many other forms of labor. But they aren’t sui generis, either. For instance:

Considering the fact that so many prostitutes start out underage, or as rape and molest victims, or trafficked, or all of the above, it clearly is not.  Considering the high rates of PTSD, assault, and sexual assault, it clearly is not.

I suspect that many of these things are also true of Hollywood acting (many people start as teenage runaways and have huge family problems), boxing, jockeys at racetracks, enlistees in the military, and a large number of other professions. And of course, these things are also true of many forms of non-prostitute sex work.

And, as I keep noting, one of the reasons for all the trafficking is precisely that the sex trade is illegal. That’s also a big factor in the assault and sexual assault rates—they are much higher among street prostitutes who work for pimps in Los Angeles than they are among workers at legal brothels in Nevada.

And yes, I would have almost as much of a problem with labor of any kind that someone “chose” because they were abused or forced into it at the age of 12.

As would I. But that’s a public policy question, not a theory question. How do we prevent people from being abused and forced into prostitution as young children. And that gets us back to regulation of the market—i.e., the same way we prevent children from working in coal mines.

We know that sex work is different, because when we listen to sex workers experiences and when we look at the data about their well-being, and hell, when we look at the legal liability they are exposing themselves to by being sex workers, we can see that all of these factors make them vulnerable.

I think you are generalizing too much here. Obviously, sex work is often very hard. But (1) there may be a difference between legal and illegal sex work, (2) there may be a difference between different types of sex work, (3) there may be a difference between highly compensated sex workers and insufficiently compensated sex workers, and (4), most importantly, it isn’t as though these concerns are absent at the other jobs available to your average sex worker.

In other words, a lot of sex workers are not people with other sets of huge, valuable skills in the marketplace. The sex work may be the least shitty job available to them, or it may be the one job available that pays well. You aren’t saving them from a shitty existence by disallowing them from working. In many cases, you are either (a) making their job even shittier or (b) forcing them into a shittier, poorly paying job.

By taking the view that “transactional sex is okay” you are ignoring all of that.  And that is super, super convenient for you.

Actually, not. The reality is that of all the forms of transactional sex, my argument on prostitution is probably the most instrumental. In other words, if I didn’t think that legal prostitution with higher prices was a better deal for sex workers, I’d probably oppose it or at least wouldn’t favor it. And I can think of situations where I would not favor legal prostitution at all, for basically feminist reasons.

The reason I say that transactional sex is OK is actually because of ALL THE REST OF THE TRANSACTIONAL SEX that I basically think is OK. I don’t think it’s wrong for someone to marry someone else for their money. I don’t think it’s wrong for someone to reward her husband with a blowjob because he did something really nice for her. I don’t think it’s wrong for swingers to pay $150 to get into a party so they can fuck each other. I very much think Dan Savage’s “GGG” manifesto is basically right about sex in relationships.

Comment #352: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  07:45 PM

THE TRANSACTIONAL MODEL, IN AND OF ITSELF, DENIES THE HUMANITY OF THE PERSON BEING TRANSACTED.  That is why we have a problem with it.  That is what Amanda is attacking in this post—that you cannot treat people, or their sexual expression, like a commodity.  Because it is harmful.

And your mistake is thinking that treating sex as a commodity is the same as treating people as a commodity.

It’s the same mistake you would make if you said that treating coal mining as a commodity is the same as treating coal miners as a commodity. Or that treating soldiering as a commodity is the same thing as treating soldiers as one.

In each case, you are dealing with intensive labor that a lot of people might not want to do. But in no situation are we denying the humanity of the people who transact it. The only reason we deny the humanity of people who transact it is if we decide that that’s what we want to do.

That does not mean that we have to prove that it is equally harmful in all contexts, or that there aren’t some sex workers that really enjoy sex work.  The point is that enthusiastic consent, and the norms that flow from it, start down the slippery slope that requires the BUYER to BEWARE that they may be harming another human being.

The problem, though, is the slope isn’t really slippery. People accept transactional sex. They engage in it in their own lives. They don’t think it’s wrong. And they don’t think that it will lead to the justification of all these forms of human exploitation.

Now, perhaps they are wrong. But to prove that, you would have to establish what is wrong with ever engaging in sex as part of a transaction. And you haven’t done that.

All you are saying is that because sexuality is transactional in some situations, it should be.  And we should shape our expression of consent around transactions.  What I am saying is that people have a universal obligation not to harm other people, and that people who harm other people should not be given license to do so, and we should have norms about how harming people, or being blind to the possibility of harm in the face of overwhelming evidence, is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Actually, what I am saying is as follows:

1. Because sexuality is transactional in some situations, and there is no valid moral objection to at least some of that transactional sex, any good theory of sexuality should account for that.

2. It’s important to have a strong, affirmative norm of consent, but it’s also important that the consent norm fit into the paradigms of how people actually have sex, which includes transactional sex.

3. If there is something wrong with prostitution (and there is actually a lot wrong with it), it does not stem from its status as a transaction involving sex but instead stems from many of the specific awful aspects of the sex trade.

4. Intensive regulation of prostitution as a problem of exploitative labor will likely be far more effective at addressing the problems that are at the heart of prostitution than simply condemning it as a form of per se rape that can never satisfy a standard of enthusiastic consent.

Comment #353: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  07:45 PM

God DAMN that’s a lot of bullshit rationalizing!

If you have to be paid to fuck somebody, you don’t actually want to fuck that person and you just need the money.

If you have to pay somebody to fuck you, that person doesn’t actually want to fuck you and just needs the money.

There’s your transactional model blah blah horseshit.

Comment #354: snobographer  on  07/21  at  07:50 PM

You assume, without warrant, that sexuality is an alienable form of labor.

The harms that disproportionately befall sexworkers, whether the sexwork is legal or illegal, belies that.

And again, you keep focusing on whether it is okay for the “weaker” party to give into the transaction, as if I were challenging that.  I am not.  I am saying it is wrong to use power to coerce, if you know or should know that you will cause harm.

The harm in sex work is so widespread that those who purchase access to another person’s body are taking a risk that morally is too high.

Your discussion of legality/illegality is entirely beside the point because this is a discussion about how, morally, people should view sex.  How we translate that or in the alternative, how we harmonize that with the best public policies for sex workers are two different issues.  Sex workers being safer under legalization (which assumes the only prostitutes under legalization are legal prostitutes, which is not true) does not mean that their *agency* is any different.

Comment #355: Ismone  on  07/21  at  07:52 PM

So no, it is not okay to lie about sexual agency, even if you could prove that it would lead to better working conditions for sex workers.  In short.

And you haven’t proven that, not at all.  All of the evidence cited is against that, you are engaging in rank, baseless speculation that is flatly contradicted by the evidence regarding sex-worker well being.

Comment #356: Ismone  on  07/21  at  07:54 PM

1. If other forms of dangerous labor are alienable, then there’s no reason other than religious condemnation / superstition why sex would not be. The logic that says “sex is dangerous, therefore it is not alienable” would apply equally to military service or coal mining.

2. Sex worker well being is the key issue. I thought I made this clear, but if not, I’ll spell it out again—I would very much favor a ban on prostitution if I thought it was best for sex workers. I don’t—in the context of the United States at least—but if someone could establish that it was, I’d favor the ban.

3. I really don’t deny anything you are arguing about the health of sex workers. What you seem to be ignoring is the way that prohibition makes things worse for them.

4. As far as how people should view sex, your argument proves too much. Either any form of transactional sex is immoral (in which case the Jacqueline Kennedy-Aristotle Onassis marriage was a moral abomination) or only certain forms are immoral (which gets us back to ensuring that the transactions that take place are fair to women.

I think the former position is untenable, given the reality of transactional sex, and that leaves the latter position….

Comment #357: Dilan Esper  on  07/21  at  08:00 PM

If you truly want to be a feminist ally, then if there is any doubt that something is coercive, you should not do it.  Your desire to not rape should be more important than your desire for sex.  If your priorities don’t work that way, then you should stop trying to be a feminist and just become an MRA.  If you want to pretend that your sexual desire is more important than not coercing women into sex and you still want to convince us that this is line with a feminist view, then you’re just plain trolling.

Comment #358: bananacat  on  07/21  at  08:13 PM

1.  We don’t have child soldiers in this country, it is not illegal to be a soldier, soldiers are only at high risk for trauma if they actually fight a war, etc.  And I am not talking about the ethics of selling, I am talking about the ethics of buying. So the right comparison is, when is it right for people to *send* others to war?

2.  If sex worker well-being is something you care about, then stop saying transactional sex is morally neutral.  It is not.

3.  Saying that treating sex transactionally is morally wrong for a *buyer* is not the same as saying prohibition is good.  It does, however, entirely change how you go about deciding whether decriminalization is good or not.  And whether it should be one-sided.

4.  Using power to get sex that someone doesn’t want to give up is immoral.  Does it happen?  Yes.  But the moral model is trading sex for sex.  I don’t know if any given marriage is “an abomination” because I don’t know whether she would have had sex with him anyways.  But if he used his financial power within the marriage to extract sex from her that he knew was hurting her, then he would be a monster.  This isn’t about the marriage being immoral, or transactions being fair, this is about NOT HURTING PEOPLE.  VIEWING SEX AS A TRANSACTION WHERE $ IS EXCHANGED FOR SEX OR POWER IS EXCHANGED FOR SEX HURTS PEOPLE IF THEY WOULD NOT OTHERWISE HAVE THE SEX.  Plus JKO wasn’t just sleeping with him, she wasn’t a mistress.  She formed a household with him, which is a different matter.

Basically, you are forcing a harmful frame (transactions) on sexuality, and saying that our only option is to make that frame more fair.  Amanda and I and everyone else who disagrees with you is saying the frame is abusive, because it doesn’t treat people like people, and it causes measurable harm.  Therefore, the frame is wrong, because applying the frame LEAVES OUT IMPORTANT FACTORS, LIKE THE WELL-BEING OF (OFTEN) FEMALE-BODIED PEOPLE.  If you say “it is just a commercial transaction” you leave out the lived experiences of those being transacted, who in a given transaction or situation, tend to be at the BOTTOM OF THE KYRIARCHICAL HEAP.

In short, the transactional model of sex says two things:  (1) it is okay to use power, or at least monetary power, to secure sexual acquiescence, and (2) it is *realistic* to treat sex as a transaction and nothing more.  Amanda’s ENTIRE POST points out how the transactional model causes abuse not just of the participants in that model, but causes the abuse of women and any person, frankly, who does not want sex if that sex is transactional, and who are blamed for not being willing to transact sex the way that social norms say they should.

Do you see the problem with that?

Comment #359: Ismone  on  07/21  at  08:24 PM

“In each case, you are dealing with intensive labor that a lot of people might not want to do. But in no situation are we denying the humanity of the people who transact it. “

You’re not actively denying their humanity.  You just ignore it.

All your talk of sex work as a transaction ignores the people in the transaction, at least, it ignores the sex worker.  The customer is relevant as the one who decides what he wants to do.  The sex worker does it (or not, if able to refuse). 

“It’s the same mistake you would make if you said that treating coal mining as a commodity is the same as treating coal miners as a commodity. Or that treating soldiering as a commodity is the same thing as treating soldiers as one.”

I can’t help but wonder at these examples—coal mining and soldiering are rife with abuse of the coal miners and soldiers.  It is because those activities are treated as commodities that those who are involved in providing that service become commodified.

Comment #360: oldfeminist  on  07/21  at  08:34 PM

1.  Sex isn’t dangerous, for one, purchased sex is dangerous.  Or abusive, coercive sex.  And if we had child soldiers or child coal miners, you would have more of a point.  The problem isn’t just the danger, it is the danger plus the coercion.  Also, you keep conflating the sale of the labor with the purchase of the labor.  It is my position, quite clearly, that it is okay to sell but not okay to buy.  Because the buyer is buying a significant non-zero chance that they are hurting somebody.  And nobody has the right to buy that.  The analogy is to people who send the soldiers into war for corrupt reasons, not the soldiers themselves.

2.  I am not talking about a ban on prostitution.  That is a complete red herring.  I am talking about the moral framework with which we should approach any public policy discussion.  A ban or decriminalization or laws surrounding prostitution look very different if you treat the buying as unethical and coercive as compared to if you treat it as an equal transaction (like the law currently does).  Public policy should be more concerned with the well-being of the party in danger.

3.  Again, prohibition is the public policy.  We are discussing ethics here.

4.  Using money or any other form of power to coerce someone into sex is wrong.  Being coerced is not.  The test for coercion is whether the person would do the same thing in the absence of the coercive force.  Neither you or I can know whether a given rich person uses money to extract sexual favors that are non-consented to from a partner.  If that person does, though, they are horrible.

You are picking the wrong frame.  You assume that the transactional model is okay, because some sex is transactional.  But you ignore the evidence that transactional sex is coercive, harmful, and ignores the agency of the purchased person.  You also ignore the entire point of this whole post that Amanda wrote, which is that if you say it is okay to transact sex, and make that *the* norm, that *all* sex is transactional (not that people treat it as transactional, but that it is an *accurate description*) you are justifying and justifying the behavior of people who punish (usually) women for refusing to transact and who only wish to have *non-transactional* mutually respectful, consented-to sex. 

So there is a huge difference between describing specific sex acts as transactional, and saying that it is appropriate to usually describe sex as transactional, when it is not.  It completely erases (again, usually) women’s sexual desire and agency and right to be free from abuse.

Comment #361: Ismone  on  07/21  at  08:34 PM

291, 295: Thanks for trying to think of legitimate reasons I could be offensive without intending it, even if it turns out that I don’t really have the excuse you thought I might have. I aspire to interpret others’ comments with the same sort of charity.

I do think that on topics where people have strong feelings and very different assumptions and experiences, miscommunication is a natural outcome.

If you feel like spending another minute or two giving me a remedial clarity-on-the-internet lesson, it sounds like you think I made more errors than I’ve noticed so far, and I would be thankful if you’d point out the ones I’ve missed:

99 contained a boneheaded, unforced error on my part (repeating a quote, and incorrectly), which I understood was annoying as soon as I noticed that I did it. Was there something else offensive about 99?

For 101, again, the only part that’s been pointed out to me as offensive was the last sentence, which took a few minutes for me to see, but in hindsight it’s obvious to me what’s wrong with it. I don’t think it’s an uncommon error to make on the internet, though, to forget that tone doesn’t get transmitted along with the words, and you couldn’t see the look of confusion and dawning horror on my face as I realized yet again what assholes people (in this case some men in particular) can be.

I don’t see at all what was wrong with 107.

108 was an attempt to explain that, contrary to appearances, my bizarre quotation mishap was not a gratuitous attempt to annoy MissPrism. The “You misspelled my name too” part was maybe a little peevish and not nice, but I didn’t think it was extremely obnoxious.

Comment #362: Benquo  on  07/21  at  08:57 PM

In the case of coal miners, the risk is that the inanimate coal mine might collapse on them.
In the case of prostitutes, the risk is that their employers and clientele will make the conscious decision to beat them and/or rape them and/or get them addicted to drugs and/or infect them with STIs and/or rob them and/or just plain kill them when they’re naked and defenseless and lacking in legal and societal recourse because they’re just whores. Not to mention the indignity of having to fuck and blow dude after reprehensible dude and pretend they like it.
Anybody who thinks prostitution is a job like any other should go out and do it himself.

Comment #363: snobographer  on  07/21  at  09:07 PM

Ariel@303 “Nobody owes you sex and nobody owes you sexual repression.”

So, this part of the thread has talked about masturbation if someone doesn’t have a willing, enthusiastic partner.  What part of engaging in masturbation instead of inserting penis into vagina equals “repression”?  I notice that when a woman masturbates because she doesn’t have a handy penis-bearer to satisfy her, we don’t refer to her as “sexually repressed”.  Far different expectations, here. Almost sounds like… feelings of entitlement.

Comment #364: StarWatcher  on  07/21  at  10:44 PM

snobographer:

I’ve said this about porn before, and it goes for any kind of sex work. I have no ethical problem whatsoever with sex work as long as everyone involved is consenting and happy to be there. If that means that the prostitution community is reduced by 95%, so be it. Prostitution should be legal, but that means taking human trafficking and slavery all the more seriously so that people can’t be forced into it. In that regard, prostitution is a sex practice like any other, as well as one of the tougher jobs out there. Like I said, that also means that the john should be treating the prostitute as a professional conducting a transaction. If you’re not going to shower or use a condom, or if you just think women in general are subhuman, not only do you not deserve to get laid, but in any ideal situation, the prostitute would be well within her/his rights to tell you to take a hike. In that regard, it’s no different from sluthood—just because someone may be asking for it doesn’t mean they want it from you.

The simple fact here is that it’s possible to give informed consent to being exploited. Any discussion of sex work needs to keep that in mind; there are sex workers who actually enjoy their work and would take offense at people telling them that they shouldn’t be doing it.

Comment #365: BrianX  on  07/21  at  11:17 PM

@364—not to take a side in this, but part of the risk of being a coal miner is that the mine owner will choose to actively disregard worker safety and intentionally subject the miners to an unnecessary risk of death in order to maximize profits—a la Massey.  I don’t think it’s helpful to get into “which job is worse” contest, because there are other jobs in which people are treated like crap because their employers don’t care about them as people and because the people lack the resources to demand better treatment and respect.  Frankly, we view a lot of labor as a commodity, much to the detriment of the laborers, and its incredibly dehumanizing.  The idea that you can separate labor from the person doing the work is a fundamentally dehumanizing notion.  You cannot separate your housekeeper from her cleaning of your house, your nanny from her care of your children, a prostitute from the sex she gives you.

Comment #366: Kit-Kat  on  07/21  at  11:26 PM

@StarWatcher

Here’s my full quote:
“Nobody owes you sex and nobody owes you sexual repression. If there’s no meeting of the minds, then a couple should part ways rather than torture each other.”

To which you respond with “What part of engaging in masturbation instead of inserting penis into vagina equals “repression”?...Almost sounds like… feelings of entitlement.”

Let me make it as simple as possible. Per my example, you have a couple with mismatched libidos, and the person with the higher drive is very uhappy about this. One approach says that the person with higher drive should just suck it up, because that’s unfair to the significant other,  life is tough, and sex is not that of a big deal anyways, just masturbate. I argue that you’re asking that person to sacrifice their sexual needs if that person doesn’t find masturbation a good substitute. That person may compromise and accept some sexual repression nevertheless because overall the relationship is worth it,  or ultimately decide to just leave and find a better match. And no, rape is the answer here or ever.  If you want to take issue with this, go ahead.

Btw, by your logic, if Marcus Bachmann tells a poor gay soul to avoid those dirty homo acts and just masturbate, that’s not a form of sexual repression. I mean, there’s sexual release, right?

Comment #367: ArielNYC  on  07/21  at  11:48 PM

No, Ariel, one model doesn’t just say “suck it up.”  One model says there is no entitlement.  If it isn’t worth it to the higher libido partner, and if they cannot negotiate their sexual relationship with the lower libido person such that both of their needs are met, that is called being incompatible.  One model (the no-entitlement model) recognizes the incompatibility.  The other model (the commodity model) treats sex as something the low libido partner should give over in exchange for companionship.

Comment #368: Ismone  on  07/22  at  12:29 AM

To respond to what Dillian in #294 said about my comment at #269

My comparison wasn’t an argument against prostitution but a way to observe the forces around it. A person selling sexual service (and if there is one thing I fucking cannot stand, it’s when anyone refers to selling sex as though it’s and object being rented or handed over) of their own free will in a safe, regulated, and respected environment should be able to do that without hassle from anyone.

While almost any profession has a dark side that caters to jerks, prostitution is almost completely fostered by assholes’ need to have a space to act horrible. That’s what I think Amanda is saying and her research supports it. The solution isn’t to end the whoring and punish all those people who depend on it (but it’s nice of you to assume that) but to alter the game entirely so that everyone has a better chance of accessing healthy sex of their liking without transactional framing or an actual transaction. Couples looking for a third for fun should be able to ask a friend or post an ad on Craig’s List. Homosexuals shouldn’t have to bury themselves in the closet. Disabled folk should have the same access to love, lust and life as the rest of us. Welcome to progressiveism Dillian, it’s a beautiful place!

Comment #369: scrumby  on  07/22  at  12:49 AM

I’m not sure we’re disagreeing. But I’m curious how you would describe negotiation in this scenario. If you say that sex must never be treated like a good, or a favor, or an exchange, there’s nothing to negotiate.  The wife shouldn’t consent to more sex than she would otherwise prefer in exchange for anything. Which is her right, obviously.

Comment #370: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  01:14 AM

At over 370 comments I’m sure this has already been said, but I’ll put it out there again:

I use the “I have a boyfriend/husband” technique after the guy ignores my flat out rejection, indicating that he is a danger to me.  He obviously doesn’t respect women, so I appeal to his respect of men. Not a feminist action, but the best way to get this creep to actually accept the rejection without risking his anger.  I can see why some would cut the chase and skip straight to this technique, especially when they’re approached in a way that indicates lack of respect for women’s boundaries.

Comment #371: Opaline  on  07/22  at  03:17 AM

*TO the chase :/

Comment #372: Opaline  on  07/22  at  03:18 AM

Dilan, your argument is fucking stupid.

You say that Amanda’s theory of sexuality is ‘inadequate’ because it doesn’t take into account that loads of sex is transactional, not just prostitution.

Well, that argument was the ENTIRE POINT OF THE ARTICLE which you somehow missed. Amanda describes how this underpins sexual behaviour as is, and then talks about what to aim for.

You took the ‘what to aim for’ and then said it was inadequate because it didn’t describe sexuality as it is.

Then you try to say, look at all the poor people who might not have the same opportunities
to view sex in a non transactional manner. Despite noting that this make them disadvantaged, you say this is an argument for why transactional sex is fine?

The transactional model is what fucks up pretty much everything about male female sexual relationships, and homosexual as well when they participate in the same models of sexualised commodified dom/sub roles.

Just because loads of people do it, and some people have less opportunity to escape it than others, does not mean it is all that we should aspire to and that it’s all fine and dandy.

Prostitution is just one example, but it promotes damaging views of gender and sexuality on all levels.

Why is that so hard to understand, the distinction between descriptions and goals?


@ marina S.
‘If we build a culture in which women enjoy and demand sex, rather than just passively and unwillingly perform it, then the whole edifice collapses willy nilly, since it’s functionally impossible to exploit someone by giving them what they want (well OK it is in the case of e.g. addiction, but work with me here). Which means that being pro-sex and pro women enjoying enthusiastic sex is not just superficially rebellious, but seriously dangerous and undermining to the P.’


I also used to believe this, and it is indeed an important part. Unfortunately, enjoying sex does not stop men from viewing it as his personal victory and your personal loss when he gets his dick in you.
It just makes it easier for him to achieve that and laugh about what a dirty slut you are behind your back. This is why sex poz feminism is so unthreatening to men… nothing about their view really changes, they just get laid more often.

Also, the notion that women enjoying sex means you are ‘liberated’ is often used to manipulate women into doing things they don’t feel comfortable with… cos if you turn it down, you get ‘oh what, thought you LIKED sex, doesn’t everybody? Guess you’re just a frigid prude like all the others…’ kind of bullshit. The idea that you want to be ‘liberated’ in itself, in this way, becomes an internalized compulsory sexualization.

It does not stop men objectifying women. It only stops you objectifying yourself, and even then it’s imperfect.

You say you can’t exploit someone by giving them what they want. What I want is to enjoy sex and still be respected like a human being and not a fuck toy. I can achieve the former but less frequently achieve the latter.

Most of the time the only thing you achieve is the orgasm, not the respect. That is why focusing only on ‘celebrating female sexuality’ is not enough.

Comment #373: Rididill  on  07/22  at  07:44 AM

To go back to the politeness thing, I think it ties in with the entitlement of selling/buying model of sex.  Using politeness as a bludgeon is a way to manipulate people into doing what they want others to do.  It’s a common tactic - someone says “no” to a manipulative person, and the manipulative person automatically argues that the rejecting person is “rude” (or otherwise insults them), in the hopes that they argue the point by doing what the manipulative person wants.

It’s not so much that women are be seen as “nice”, it’s that the manipulative person is using guilt and shaming to get their way, and it works well on people who have been trained to respond positively to guilt and shame.  Hence the “you’re a bitch” and “you’re being rude” response to “no”.  I would argue that women are trained to respond to guilt and shame - it’s the mechanism that holds up rape culture and they are pretty powerful tools.  “No” on its own is perfectly polite, nobody needs to explain further.  But manipulative people don’t want to hear it, so they press, and they’re actually the rude ones.

I would say it’s analogous to someone wanting to buy a possession of yours that you’re not selling - they want to buy it, but you have absolutely no intention of selling it.  And they keep pressing, because they think that you’re just holding out for a higher price, when the truth is, it’s yours, and you’re not selling it.  They can’t understand why you won’t sell it to them, because you can always get another with the price they’re offering - leaving out the main important fact that it’s not for sale.

And it’s really sad that our culture has that kind of model for sex, because sex is fun and shouldn’t be a chore or duty, which is a side effect of thinking like this.

Comment #374: SporkeyO  on  07/22  at  08:03 AM

ArielNYC @ 316,
You are equating the right to want with the right to have that want fulfilled.  If that is not what you mean to be saying, you really need to work on your communication skills. 
Wanting to have sex is perfectly fine; insisting because you want to have sex that you should be able to have sex is not fine at all.  Unless someone else also wants to have sex with you, you are shit out of luck; just like a woman who wants sex but doesn’t have someone she wants to have sex with want to have it with her is out of luck.

Comment #375: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  08:10 AM

Dilan Esper said

So is paying to be a part of a swingers’ gangbang. So is making porn videos—of all sorts, including lesbian and feminist porn.


amidst a bunch of other possible situations. 
I do not agree that the first of these is transactional sex.  This is transactional sex only if some of the people are hired specifically to have sex (or coerced via other means to do so).  This is no more than paying to attend the party, just like a bar cover charge.
I disagree that all porn is defacto transactional.  People actually make amature porn for themselves and/or their friends for fun.  While I would agree that most to nearly all porn is transactional sex, it is not necessarily so.

Comment #376: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  08:28 AM

And @ 371 we come to the real problem many of us have with ArielNYC. 
What the hell makes you think it is the wife who should suck it up and do it in exchange for something?  We are, and have been repeatedly telling you that women often have to just do without if there is a mismatch the other way (cause women are sellers who don’t really like sex for sex, amirite). 
You are implying that only men want more sex and women should be willing to give it to them for getting nice things from them.  If that is not what you intend to be saying, see my previous comment @376.  If it is what you mean, just ick.

Comment #377: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  08:50 AM

@helen w. h

Notice that I used a gender neutral languge in a previous post. It is true that when you read about these cases, it tends to be more often about a low-libido women than men , but I my point should be applied regardless of gender, and nothing I wrote should be construed as saying that men and women have different sexual needs and so should be treated differently.

Point me to where I said that the wife, or husband, have to do anything, or that women don’t like sex (seriously?). My point was that a couple should communicate their sexual needs openly and try to resolve them through compromise. If that’s not possible, the couple should be honest about and break up the relationship, rather than stew in anger and resentment. 

Which leads to two questions:

1. What does it mean to compromise on sex in this case? Is it possible to compromise without treating sex as some form of transaction or exchange?

2. How problematic is is if one partner uses the leverage of the relationship to ask for concessions - i.e. either we engage in more sex, or I’m out. It’s easy to see how this pressures the the less enthusiastic partner into more sex.  I think this the point that lots of people have an issue with.  I know I was a bit glib about it, and I’m trying to think it thru in more sensitive terms rather than just brute logic, which is work in progress. Anyways, my impression was that there’s a strain of thought on feminist boards that says that the desire of the higher-libido partner for more sex puts undue pressure on the low-libido partner, and so we should cut the Gordian knot and have the high-libido partner just masturbate. Which I argued is a recepie for unhappiness on all sides.

Comment #378: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  10:10 AM

I also thought this was a fantastic post. Another problem is that, according to the market dating model, women “depreciate” as they age, which only intensifies their inequality and disempowerment on the dating scene (speaking as a 53 yo).

Comment #379: lifelongactivist  on  07/22  at  12:15 PM

BrianX, scrumby, etc. - You’re not going to create a humane “sexual services industry.” You need to blow up the one we’ve got and everything we think we know about men’s “needs” and women’s “natural state” and about sex itself.

Comment #380: snobographer  on  07/22  at  12:25 PM

Ariel #379: “Notice that I used a gender neutral languge in a previous post.”

And then your mask slipped.

Also, anyone who quotes Dan Fucking Savage on matters of consent instantly fails. Savage is a privileged douchebag with a record of rape apologism and who has said that “feminism inadvertently destroyed marriage.” The “good, giving, game” mentality dismisses and belittles any concerns that might be inconvenient to one partner getting their rocks off.

Comment #381: Nobody in Particular  on  07/22  at  12:34 PM

#374: Rididill - What she said!

Comment #382: snobographer  on  07/22  at  12:35 PM

Snobographer: Yeah, except for that “sex-poz” reference. I’m sure she still uses “sex-pox” in private, however, to refer to “gender traitors” like me who actually enjoy BDSM and porn.

Comment #383: Nobody in Particular  on  07/22  at  12:44 PM

snobographer:

Just because we may not achieve that in total, does that make it pointless to try? Like I said, not all sex workers are doing it under duress. Starting by making it so sex workers don’t have to hide when they’re raped, enslaved, or otherwise abused is still a huge step in the right direction.

Nobody #382:

And both of those cases involve a lot of subtext. Whether he’s right or wrong (and the Bristol Palin bit is a bit dodgy; I understand his position since Palin works for a movement where lying is fundamental to what they do, though), you’re drastically oversimplifying what he’s saying in those matters. As for GGG, you’re missing the opposite side of the coin where he’s repeatedly told people whose partners don’t respect boundaries to dump those partners. Now stop quote-mining and debate like a grownup.

Comment #384: BrianX  on  07/22  at  12:49 PM

Just because we may not achieve that in total, does that make it pointless to try?

The only way to try that’s ever going to get anywhere is to stop regarding the bodies of women and girls as salable commodities. That means blowing the porn and prostitution industries to smithereens. Just to start. Legalizing prostitution has never done a damn thing for prostitutes, despite sex-poz delusions to the contrary. Look into how women and girls - prostitutes and otherwise - are treated in places where prostitution is legal. Seriously.

Comment #385: snobographer  on  07/22  at  01:02 PM

snobographer:

Neither one is ever going to go away. Even if we take every reluctant and unwilling sex worker out of the industry, there will still be people who want to be there and have made that decision willingly and with full understanding of what they are getting into. (And don’t tell me otherwise, because real, unstaged amateur porn does exist in large quantity, and there are people out there who occasionally turn a trick or two just for fun. If they exist, statistically there will also be people who want to do that as a profession.) Are you going to tell them that they (however small in number they may be) are not entitled to do whatever they wish with their bodies, as long as they understand and take seriously the risks involved?

Like I said, I’m all for ending sex trafficking and telling people that they don’t have to be sex workers. But that’s a long damn way from telling someone they can’t when they actually want to.

Comment #386: BrianX  on  07/22  at  01:11 PM

@379

I think this:

“either we engage in more sex, or I’m out”

can be absolutely coercive—esp. when we know that women are often economically dependent on men and made more so when they have children. So, the whole issue of consent and how someone might arrive at how no sex can be consensual starts to make some sense. Although, to be clear, I do NOT believe that to be true—just that arriving there is not as absurd as it sounds on its face.There are many ways in which our patriarchal norms (both codified and culturally communicated) hobble women and prevent them from developing true autonomy and independence. Due to that fact, and the fact that they have historically been the sex class (of course those two things work in tandem and by design), we have a pretty significant problem wrt what consent actually looks like on an ethical level (setting aside the problem within a legal or policy framework). The questions you and other men are asking, while upsetting to some degree, are also in my mind welcome (I presume sincerity) b/c they are an indication that you are thinking this through logically and leading yourself through the, “well if this is true, then what about that…” which, as I said, illuminates just how problematic consent, sex positivity, and non-transactional sex are to imagine in practice within a heavily patriarchy normed culture. When enough men start to grapple with these very difficult and more subtle yet profoundly problematic realities, that will indicate a real shift toward eliminating transactional sex and all the violent, dehumanizing, vile ways that women suffer from commodified transactional sex.

Comment #387: tookish  on  07/22  at  01:20 PM

Ariel @ 379 - your comment, direct copy paste:

I’m not sure we’re disagreeing. But I’m curious how you would describe negotiation in this scenario. If you say that sex must never be treated like a good, or a favor, or an exchange, there’s nothing to negotiate.  The wife shouldn’t consent to more sex than she would otherwise prefer in exchange for anything. Which is her right, obviously.

Comment #371: ArielNYC on 07/22 at 01:14 AM

That this is what you meant was coming through loud and clear, whatever it was you thought you were saying, from the time you started commenting. 
You hear about over libido men and under libido women because in a women as seller/men buyer world such as ours, the opposite is not considered a problem and if a woman dares to complain about such a thing she is just some crazy nympho-slut who should be shunned by society, in general.

Comment #388: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  01:22 PM

tookish:

Yes, it can be abusive, but it’s not inherently so. It really depends on the case—for one couple it’s a symptom of sexual incompatibility, but for another it’s blatant emotional manipulation.

Comment #389: BrianX  on  07/22  at  01:23 PM

@Nobody in Particular

Apparently when I say that the principles I support apply equally to all genders, use gender-neutral language, but then mention one gendered example, I nullify everything I say. Because Slipped Mask. If you actually want to debate something rather than read my soul, you’re welcome to it.

Since you mention Dan Savage, I wonder what your problem iswith GGG is. Saying we should respect the “coconcerns” of one partner doesn’t really tell me much.

Comment #390: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  01:24 PM

Feminist arguments about prostitution that ignore sex work performed by wives are pretty classist. 

From my perspective, my mother loved and respect my dad and he felt the same about her.  I also had a bedroom next to my parents’ room, and can attest that they had a fun, active sex life that my mother seemed to enthusiastically consent to.

My mother was also an upper middle-class housewife who didn’t earn her own money.  She also agreed with the idea that women shouldn’t refuse sex when their husbands want it.  How was this not transactional sex?  The only difference I see is that only one john is paying her. 

I agree with Twisty completely.  Consent, enthusiastic or otherwise, is meaningless in a patriarchy.  I think Dan Savage’s GGG model will be really great guidelines for how relationships should be conducted after the feminist revolution.  Until that time occurs, it’ll probably mostly be used to coerce women who are cohabitating with men to have sex they’d rather not have.

Comment #391: stubbles  on  07/22  at  01:28 PM

@helen w. h. #389

“the opposite is not considered a problem and if a woman dares to complain about such a thing she is just some crazy nympho-slut who should be shunned by society”

Do I say that? Does Dan Savage say that? Do you regularly read advice columns where women are told to STFU and put up with sexless or quasi-sexless marriages, while men are told to man up and demand what’s their God-given right? I would hope that if this thing exists it’s limited to some fundamentalist religious groups.  I’d be very curious to see a link to a mainstream publication that promotes this view. Really, I would.

Comment #392: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  01:40 PM

Now stop quote-mining and debate like a grownup.

Shove your patronizing attitude up your ass, BrianX.

Comment #393: Nobody in Particular  on  07/22  at  01:48 PM

ArielNYC:

There are nevertheless frustrated women in sexless marriages; it’s not talked about anywhere near as much, but it does happen. The solution to any situation like that, though, is usually a lot more complex than “stop whining and spread”, since it frequently indicates either one partner’s dysfunctionalities (like trauma or abuse) or a general sexual incompatibility between the two partners.

Comment #394: BrianX  on  07/22  at  01:52 PM

Nobody #394:

Why should I? You’re the one ignoring the greater context of what you’re arguing against.

Comment #395: BrianX  on  07/22  at  01:54 PM

“Greater context,” my butt. It’s not “quote-mining” when I supplied you with links to everything in context. And Savage’s concept of “boundaries” are a lot looser than what should be any feminist standard. He’s basically another privileged affluent white cis dude who thinks that being gay is his Get Out Of Being Considered A Jerk Free card.

Comment #396: Nobody in Particular  on  07/22  at  01:59 PM

@BrianX

I don’t think we disagree. I never said that women, or men, should “stop whining” and just put out.

Comment #397: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  02:02 PM

Nobody: I’m talking about the overall context of what Savage says to people in general, which is why I’m accusing you of quote-mining. His entire message to everyone he deals with is based on the idea of asserting your own personal autonomy while being sensitive to the needs of your partner(s). And yes, sometimes he’s wrong.

Look, take whatever you want from it. But you’re not arguing against some holy dogma; you’re arguing against one influential human being who has been wrong in the past, has admitted it, and has evolved in certain aspects over the years. Debate the whole message, not just the parts of it you don’t like.

Comment #398: BrianX  on  07/22  at  02:09 PM

ArielNYC @ 393:
212 - Nothing too obviously offensive, but PUAs are just socializing clueless men?  Reeeeally.  So, do a, b and c and women will want you - like women are a car to just start by turning the right key and pushing the right buttons - is already problematic. 
223 - Answered by Amanda @ 229 - and basically dismissed by you at 241 with a hint of how dare you suggest I think pushing boundries is okay (becaue of your praise of PUA, by the way).  “This is how society works, man.”
241 - other than that, most of what you said was “us poor men always have to initiate” with and finished “I’m not sure how this ended up being about disputing clear boundaries and consent.”  *
283 answereing aimai at 273, then total proving for the rest of the thread that no, you are not, as you claimed “I’m interested in the lived experience of women and understanding how this dynmamic plays out from their perspective, especially in more liberal circles.” by seemingly refusing to believe what anyone says.
286 - gee, it sounds like you support that norm. “...a conventionally-attractive woman hitting hard on a guy conjures the image of prostitution or some tourist trap.” Figure out why a large number of us find it problematic that.  If this were an appropriate setting of equals (you know, between people who know each other, not some random stranger on the street, blind date, whatever) where it is not assumed the woman is for sale or selling use of her body, this makes no sense.
293 is where you go off the rails, claiming that anyone had said that desiring sex was entitlement.  No, assuming because you desired it that you could insist on it without the other person being interested, or coercing them to comply with those desires very much is - as you were then told, repeatedly, with varying degrees of politeness, several times within the next 100 comments.  And you refused to see the difference.
So I’ll stop here with your “poor me” conversation.
* Gee, from the OP:

Because, to put on my Twisty Faster hat, if we cast men as buyers and women as sellers, that means that women are assumed to be in a perpetual state of consent just as that gallon of milk at the store is assumed to be on sale for anyone who can cobble together the $5 to buy it.  As long as the market model of heterosexuality is in play, the notion that sex should be a mutual exchange between two individuals will not make so much sense to people.

 

Comment #399: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  02:28 PM

Ariel,

The negotiation is over—what can high-libido partner and low-libido partner do differently that meets both of their needs?  For example, if different sex acts would satisfy high-libido partner, and low-libido partner would enjoy participating in them at a higher frequency than what is in their current sex life, that would be a way to deal with it.  Or if doing things that turned on low-libido partner helped.  Or if removing stressors from low-libido partner.  Any number of things.  The point is to communicate, and see if there is a way to do things differently that satisfies both sets of needs.

stubbles,

Just because one partner has more money and a higher sex drive doesn’t mean that the sex in that marriage is sex work.  For example, if the sex was engaged in because the lower-earning partner wants to bond with the higher-earning partner.  Now, if sex was seriously uncomfortable or emotionally traumatic for the dependent partner, and the wealthier partner used financial power to pressure the dependent into sex the earner could tell the dependent didn’t like, yup, that is more analogous to sex work.  And analogous to the worst things about sex work.  And could possibly spill over into straight out marital-rape territory, depending upon how the coercion was applied.

Also, what does it mean to not turn down a partner for sex?  Does it mean you care about the person enough to get in the mood, or enjoy going along with it because it pleases them?  Because that seems okay to me.  Although personally, I would think the better thing to do would be for the partner initiating sex to make the other person want it. 

And also, there are men and women who are high earners who stay in virtually sexless marriages for a whole host of reasons.

So, in short, if financial coercion is applied in marriage to obtain sex, that is really fucking evil.  But if two married people balance out their libidos by the less-interested partner having sex that they are willing to have, but not over the moon about, I would think that is probably okay.

PS—by your definition, my ex husband was a sex worker. 

Comment #400: Ismone  on  07/22  at  02:29 PM

@ 393
Again, from your own quote, you just use (marginally) more polite language.

@ Kit-Kat

To piggyback on your point, the idea of a conventionally-attractive woman hitting hard on a guy conjures the image of prostitution or some tourist trap. And that’s because that goes against the norm, and however a guy may be flattered by this kind of attention, he would be wondering who is this woman following a completely different social script than the one he’s familiar with.

Comment #286: ArielNYC on 07/21 at 01:11 PM

Comment #401: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  02:31 PM

Even if we take every reluctant and unwilling sex worker out of the industry, there will still be people who want to be there and have made that decision willingly and with full understanding of what they are getting into.

Like six of them. Who gives a shit.

Comment #402: snobographer  on  07/22  at  02:32 PM

PPS—speaking as someone who is pretty much always the higher libido partner in a relationship, I try very carefully to structure things so that I don’t put pressure on my partners to have sex they don’t want.  I don’t want to put them in the position of having to reject me or go along with something they don’t like, so I tend to look for signs of receptivity or interest or ask if since we are doing y, want to do y+1?  Sure, I want more sex than they do, and it would be cool if I could get all the sex I want all the time, but I am in a relationship with that person because I want to be with them and want that person to want me back.

Comment #403: Ismone  on  07/22  at  02:34 PM

snobographer:

Six of them or six million, they do. So don’t presume to speak for them.

Comment #404: BrianX  on  07/22  at  02:35 PM

I think Dan Savage’s GGG model will be really great guidelines for how relationships should be conducted after the feminist revolution. 
Comment #392: stubbles on 07/22 at 01:28 PM


As long as one partner is GGG about the other’s disinterest in sex at any given time. That concept isn’t even on Savage’s radar. Ariel here is still struggling to comprehend it.

Comment #405: snobographer  on  07/22  at  02:37 PM

Comment #405: BrianX

Quit pretending “sex workers” like Furry Girl are representative of the “sex work industry.” It’s fucking delusional.

Comment #406: snobographer  on  07/22  at  02:39 PM

snobographer:

I’m done with you. If that’s all you get from everything I wrote, than you haven’t paid attention to a single goddamned thing I’ve said.

Comment #407: BrianX  on  07/22  at  02:41 PM

@Ismone

“For example, if different sex acts would satisfy high-libido partner,...or if doing things that turned on low-libido partner helped.”
  Good point.  To be honest I don’t even know why this intrigues me so much, since I’ve been fortunate enough to be in mutually-satisfying relationships. Maybe I just dread the specpter of age and a sexless marriage and wonder how that fate can be avoided.

Comment #408: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  02:49 PM

I have paid attention to what you’ve said. Sorry you don’t like the fact that it’s apparent you haven’t looked into the “sex industry” any farther than the part you’re personally comfortable with. It gets much much uglier from there.

Comment #409: snobographer  on  07/22  at  02:50 PM

@snobographer

You can’t be Good, Giving and Game without giving. It’s in the actual name of the concept.  And you may well decide that GGG is not for you. I’m not sure what I’m not comprehending, as you’re not actually presenting any argument.

 

Comment #410: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  02:53 PM

Ariel:

That’s what I think people aren’t getting about GGG—it’s not just a principle in and of itself. It’s also a benchmark of communication between partners. If it gets to the point that someone can’t be GGG for a partner, that may indicate a real incompatibility that needs to be addressed somehow, either through couples therapy, going outside the relationship (with the consent of both partners), or breaking up. Really it all comes down to communication and mutual respect and doing what’s right for the relationship.

Comment #411: BrianX  on  07/22  at  02:56 PM

@411 - “You can’t be Good, Giving and Game without giving.”

Right, so in the spirit of giving, one should leave somebody the hell alone when they don’t want to perform a particular sexual act.
Sorry you still haven’t grasped the concept of mutual consent. It’s a toughy for a lot of dudes apparently.

Comment #412: snobographer  on  07/22  at  02:56 PM

snobographer:

If you missed the point where I support cracking down on coercion in the sex industry (and in sexuality in general), then you weren’t paying attention. Plain and simple.

Comment #413: BrianX  on  07/22  at  02:59 PM

BrianX,

I think you are arguing in bad faith to say that snobographer is presuming to speak for anyone.  Snobographer is talking about the industry as a whole, and the problems that infect it.  The fact that not every single sex worker in the industry is oppressed doesn’t mean that the structure isn’t oppressive.

Snobographer says we have to “blow up” the industry as it exists.  And I agree. I think we do.  Because *so many* of the people in the industry are coerced, and because of the attitudes of those purchasing sex *so many* of the purchasers are entirely complicit in abusing these workers.

The model, the very frame is fucked.  For the reasons that Amanda explains in this post.

Comment #414: Ismone  on  07/22  at  03:00 PM

@ 390 BrianX:

The fact that coercion wrt sex in marriage is not “inherently so” is more about hypotheticals than reality. Is it *never* the case that actual consent can be given within a marriage where women are not the wage earners and to leave or be left would mean economic, parenting, and emotional devastation? Is it even meaningful to discuss those miniscule-in-number situations in which it isn’t? How would we even meaningfully determine if they weren’t?

To my mind, it’s far more meaningful and instructive to consider the way the vast majority of marriages are constructed around things like economic viability and independence wrt gender, what trends we can see happen when women are divorced and become single parents, who suffers greater levels of poverty, what about when age is a factor, etc…? And when all those easily trackable and knowable trends are clear—and when we couple them with patriarchal norms that tell women from the time they are little girls and with increasing intensity as they age into womanhood that they shouldn’t /don’t want sex for pleasure’s sake and are to use sex as a way to gain security, value and love, I think someone with empathy can pretty easily see that in most situations it is reasonable for women to experience sex as a coercive and necessary act to ensure the stability of their lives. That they sometimes feel sexual, want to have sex, and enjoy it while having it is not the same thing as the fact that these situations I describe and the trends that accompany them are vile, toxic, and happen on a very large scale (both in frequency and across time).

Comment #415: tookish  on  07/22  at  03:03 PM

@414 - Coercion is about 99.999999999999999% of the sex industry. You want to pretend the remaining 0.000000000000001% defines the industry.

Comment #416: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:06 PM

^+ 417 ...because that makes your dudely het self feel better about the whole thing.

Comment #417: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:08 PM

Ismone:

I hope I’m not arguing in bad faith. My point is predicated on my impression that snobographer seems to think it’s impossible to consent to performing sex work for money, which to me essentially completely defies logic. I don’t mean to come off as minimizing the bad parts of the sex industry; as I said, I feel very strongly that any sex act, whether for money or for pleasure (or both), requires informed consent, and if a person wants to engage in sex for money, it is possible and reasonable for some people to give informed consent. Most people will not want to and therefore should not. But please don’t tell me that the people who are in it because they actually enjoy the work don’t know what’s going on in their own heads; I mean, there is a vast gray area between a young teenage girl being forced to work the streets in Thailand and a successful porn star who runs her own studio, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t people who give enthusiastic consent to exploiting their own sexuality.

As I said before, I’d shed no tears if the sex industry shrunk overnight by 95%, as long as the people left are the ones who want to be there. Consent in any form of sexuality is crucial. Most people in sex work probably shouldn’t be there. But that doesn’t give us license to ignore the concerns of those who freely choose it.

Comment #418: BrianX  on  07/22  at  03:15 PM

What defies logic is the idea that if you genuinely consent to sex you’d require payment for it.

Comment #419: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:18 PM

And you don’t have to go all the way to Thailand to see exploited women and girls. The USA is chock fucking full of them.

Comment #420: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:19 PM

Also, what does it mean to not turn down a partner for sex?  Does it mean you care about the person enough to get in the mood, or enjoy going along with it because it pleases them?  Because that seems okay to me.  Although personally, I would think the better thing to do would be for the partner initiating sex to make the other person want it.

It means that you have sex when your husband wants it.  Fortunately for my mother, it seemed like my dad chose to be GGG and got my mom in the mood.  If he chose not to be, then (according to her) she would still have sex.  What would her options be? Asking him to change?  Why would he do that since he has all the money and she’s bargaining through the belief that she doesn’t have a right to refuse sex anyway?

PS—by your definition, my ex husband was a sex worker.

Perhaps.  Marriage is a contract between two people to establishes a financial household and secure inheritance rights*.  If one person has the means to monetarily support the other, what is the other party offering in return?

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Straight-Gay-Marriage-Families/dp/0807044326

Comment #421: stubbles  on  07/22  at  03:25 PM

#420:

Because no one ever tries to make money doing something they enjoy? Yes, sex is a lot more intimate than cooking or painting, but the same principle applies.

As for Thailand, I could just have easily picked Romania, Congo, Paris, or a truck stop outside Atlanta. Your point is irrelevant.

Comment #422: BrianX  on  07/22  at  03:35 PM

Also, I am not ignoring the large bad parts of the sex industry. I’m saying that the entire industry should be run like the small good parts. You’d really have to be pretty blinkered to not see that’s what I’m saying.

Comment #423: BrianX  on  07/22  at  03:38 PM

Nobody enjoys getting stuck by every random dude who has a few dollars to offer. Stop deluding yourself.

Comment #424: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:46 PM

@424 - There are no good parts. Pull your head out of your privleged dude ass and look into it.

Comment #425: snobographer  on  07/22  at  03:47 PM

@helen w. h. #402

I think I understand where you’re coming from.  Let me try be more precise. When you bend the gender script, you incur suspicion. If you’re a very attractive woman, and you’re at a bar making an aggressive pitch for sex with a total stranger, the most common frame of referene will be that you’re likely trying to drive a financial transction. Because we don’t normally think of very attracrive women acting this way. It may well be that she’s just horny and wants to get some, and she’s happy to be aggressive about it. And that’s fanstastic, more power to her.

My point was it’s that it’s not unreasonable to be suspicious in certain situations given reality as it is. When the revolution comes and very attractive women aggressively pursuing men in bars becomes the new normal, the perceptiopn will change. And yes, I do think this would be a better society than the one we have.

Comment #426: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  03:50 PM

also re: #420:

Argument from incredulity. Fail. At least I justified the reasons I believe that there are people who want to be in the sex industry.

Comment #427: BrianX  on  07/22  at  04:02 PM

The transactional model is what fucks up pretty much everything about male female sexual relationships, and homosexual as well when they participate in the same models of sexualised commodified dom/sub roles. Just because loads of people do it, and some people have less opportunity to escape it than others, does not mean it is all that we should aspire to and that it’s all fine and dandy.

I don’t think it’s all fine and dandy. Quite the opposite. I think a lot of these transactions are deeply unfair to women. But I also think (1) transactional sex is completely inevitable, so we best figure out how to level the playing field between men and women who engage in it, and (2) transactional sex between equal bargaining partners who fully and enthusiastically consent to the transaction IS fine and dandy.

Sex isn’t dangerous, for one, purchased sex is dangerous.  Or abusive, coercive sex.  And if we had child soldiers or child coal miners, you would have more of a point.  The problem isn’t just the danger, it is the danger plus the coercion

But that was the point of my reference. We DID have child coal miners. And many places have child soldiers. And our response to that is—correctly—to have pretty strict restrictions on children entering coal mines or military service, while allowing adults to take the risk.

That was exactly my point. This is labor that involves a lot of exploitative elements. We have a lot of experience as a society with how to handle such forms of labor, and we should apply that experience to sex work.

A ban or decriminalization or laws surrounding prostitution look very different if you treat the buying as unethical and coercive as compared to if you treat it as an equal transaction (like the law currently does).

Not really. Banning buying bans the transaction just like banning selling does. If government is going to be able to step in and regulate the transaction, it has to be legal.

And banning buying is awful for the sex workers themselves. Even if it works, it works by depleting their income.

Using money or any other form of power to coerce someone into sex is wrong.  Being coerced is not.  The test for coercion is whether the person would do the same thing in the absence of the coercive force.

I fundamentallly don’t think money is coercive. If it is, then we basically have to adopt a Marxist economy, because all sorts of services—including degrading, backbreaking, dangerous work—is paid for with money.

Comment #428: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:04 PM

All your talk of sex work as a transaction ignores the people in the transaction, at least, it ignores the sex worker.  The customer is relevant as the one who decides what he wants to do.  The sex worker does it (or not, if able to refuse). 

This is wrong. I favor whatever public policy is best for sex workers. If someone can convince me that opposing a transactional sex model would be better for the welfare of sex workers, I would favor it. I really don’t care if prostitution is legalized except that I think that it would benefit them if it was.

Comment #429: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:06 PM

BrianX,

So if you seem to agree that about 95% of the industry is fucked, would you further agree that part of what is so fucked up about it is the transactional model of sex?  That it is commoditized, instead of, say, treated like a skilled service?

Snobographer did not say that individual sex workers were incapable of consenting, s/he said they were vanishingly small.  You don’t support the existing rules based on the exception to those rules.  And you misrepresent what s/he said by stating that s/he is saying no one can consent.

Comment #430: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:07 PM

#430:

That’s how all vice laws should be approached. Too bad our country is obsessed with punishment.

Comment #431: BrianX  on  07/22  at  04:08 PM

Stubbles,

I think that your explanation explains why marriage is not sex work, inherently.

And guess what, financially coerced sexual exploitation in marriage would be fucked, too.

Comment #432: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:09 PM

If you truly want to be a feminist ally, then if there is any doubt that something is coercive, you should not do it.  Your desire to not rape should be more important than your desire for sex.  If your priorities don’t work that way, then you should stop trying to be a feminist and just become an MRA.  If you want to pretend that your sexual desire is more important than not coercing women into sex and you still want to convince us that this is line with a feminist view, then you’re just plain trolling.

I don’t think men have any “right” to visit prostitutes. As I said, if a stance against prostitution would truly benefit sex workers, I would favor it, despite the fact that I think that the critique of the transactional model of sex is wrong.

At any rate, I agree with you I’m not the right tribune for this, but it’s worth noting that plenty of feminists agree with my stance (e.g., Susie Bright, Nadine Strossen, etc.). It’s not exactly as though there is a monolithic feminist opinion on this issue and it is non-negotiable and non-debatable.

Comment #433: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:09 PM

Dilan,

You are not justifying the transactional model here.  You are explaining why, as a matter of fact, some sexual exchanges are transactional. 

Amanda’s ENTIRE FUCKING POINT is that applying it across the board leads to women being abused.

And the fact that you can show that other labor is coercive and abusive suggests that it, too, should be banned.  We don’t have child coal-miners any more.  And we don’t allow people to sell themselves into indentured servitude any more.  Does this mean certain families that could make money from these activities suffer financially?  Abso-fucking-lutely.

And once again, you keep arguing from the standpoint of what we should let the seller do.  Bullshit.  This whole piece is about how being a *buyer* is unethical.

If you cannot or will not defend the buyers, you are not defending transactional sex, not really.  Which makes me wonder why you are trying to.

Comment #434: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:12 PM

Dilan,

If you think that men don’t have the right to visit prostitutes, that the transactional model of sex is immoral, *THAT* is what you should be spilling ink (pixels?) over.  THAT is the revolutionary message that needs to be heard.  Even if you convinced one man to treat a lover or sex worker or one night stand more like a person, you would be doing a good thing.

So, why again, are you defending transactional sex as an acceptable moral model for sexual interaction?

Comment #435: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:14 PM

Ismone:

I don’t think snobographer was all so clear about that. As for the transactional model… yes and no. It is fucked up, but it applies to a lot more than just paid sex, as the PUA culture proves. Ethically speaking, I don’t have a problem with the transaction itself, but it seems like one of those things that’s symptomatic of deeper problems. Everything in context.

As for treating it like a skilled service… yes, yes, yes, a hundred thousand trillion times yes. Just like the bottom should have all the control in a BDSM relationship, the sex worker should have all the control in any encounter. This sort of exists in the porn industry, though it only really works out for the successful performers, since the newbies frequently need to be willing to do nearly anything no matter how much they dislike it in order to break in. The same goes for prostitution—a streetwalker is going to have a lot more trouble saying no to a john than a call girl. Yes, it’s inherently dangerous and frequently degrading work, and as I said most people who do sex for a living probably shouldn’t be in the sex industry. But someone who works as a prostitute shouldn’t have nowhere to go if s/he gets robbed or raped simply because society looks down on what s/he does. Criminalizing sex work means taking the bad parts of the life and making them worse.

My benchmark is Julissa Brisman—why is it that she had to be murdered by some tabloid-bait serial killer in order to be treated as a human being in the media? In a world where sex workers were understood to be skilled entertainers and not just subservient, disposable fucktoys, she might still be alive. In some parts of the world, the stigma has started to disappear, although it’ll probably remain for a long time to come.

Comment #436: BrianX  on  07/22  at  04:24 PM

Ismone:

There’s a demand for coal. I could certainly see trying to reduce our coal consumption for CO2 related reasons, but if you know anything about energy policy in major regions of this country, we aren’t going to eliminate it in the near future. And the way you mine coal is by sending humans into the ground into very dangerous places that screw up their short term and long term physical and mental health and which carry huge risk.

You can’t eliminate that. And people are willing to do it because they need the money. What you can do is regulate the shit out of it and pay people a lot of money to do it. That’s the correct public policy outcome.

If we banned coal mining, it wouldn’t reduce the demand for coal. Instead, it would create a black market of mining probably staffed by illegal immigrant labor and maybe some slaves. Just like the sex worker market.

With respect to the transactional model, I thought I was clear. I: (1) think that it is inevitable that consenting adults will engage in transactions involving sex and (2) don’t think that this activity is per se immoral, though certain forms of it clearly are. Note that none of this is framed as a “right”. I don’t think people have the “right” to engage in sexual transactions any more than they have the “right” to coal mine. They simply will do it, and the proper response is to try and deal with that reality, and that involves separating more morally troublesome and less morally troublesome versions of it and using regulatory power to curb abuses.

As for why I am defending transactional sex as an acceptable moral model, I thought I answered that as well. Because it is an acceptable moral model. The problem with a $20 blowjob from an abused child prostitute is not that there is a payment made in exchange for a sex act, but that the price is too low, the coercion level is extreme, and the female participant is being abused and exploited. In other words, a $20 blowjob from an abused child prostitute is very different from a $600 sex act performed by two adults using condoms in a Nevada brothel, just as it is different from a wife agreeing to give her husband, whom she very much likes, a blowjob that she really doesn’t enjoy very much because he spent the entire weekend repainting the house.

There is nothing INHERENTLY coercive about transactional sex. It happens that many sexual transactions are coercive, especially in the arena of prostitution. So I want to go after coercive forms of transactional sex, while leaving alone non-coercive ones, both because (a) it will give women more bargaining power and (b) because it is futile to go after non-coercive transactional sex anyway. But I don’t view any of this as a matter of “right”—it isn’t that I think that the category (b) sex acts are acts that people have a “right” to engage in; I just don’t think they are going away and don’t think they are particularly troublesome.

And where I think you go wrong is that the argument as to why transactional sex—ALL transactional sex—is morally troublesome isn’t really developed. You say it, but I’m not convinced. You say that this is like buying a woman, or depriving her of her humanity, but I don’t see it. And the reason I don’t see it is because while I CAN see the argument that the $600 protected sex act in Nevada is a form of buying a woman (I don’t really buy that, but I definitely get the argument), I don’t at all see why the husband who gets the blowjob after painting the house is buying his wife. And I don’t at all see why Aristotle Onassis was buying Jackie Kennedy either, really. So I just can’t grasp the idea that all transactional sex is immoral. It doesn’t fit with lived experience. And nor does it provide a real solution for all the inequities in the lives of sex workers.

Comment #437: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:29 PM

Dilan:

Expanding on what I said earlier, the problem with the transactional model isn’t so much the transaction itself as what it represents. You’re right that any transaction can be coercion but isn’t inherently so, but there are certain things that often represent red flags. In any relationship involving transactional sex, more scrutiny will be required because it is so often coercive. It’s how people recognize pickup artists, for example. (To say nothing of the more blatant coercion embodied in the phrase “pimp hand”.) It’s less a Bad Thing and more of a “watch your back in there” kind of thing.

Comment #438: BrianX  on  07/22  at  04:35 PM

Dilan,

Amanda is talking about in our culture, generally treating all sex as if women are selling and men are buying.  As if women have no intrinsic sexual desire.

How are you missing the point that this general social attitude is REALLY REALLY PROBLEMATIC?

And all transactional sex is worrisome because it is trading money/power for sex.  It is coercive.  And I can show you that using money/power/any other force to get sex from someone is inherently damaging.  Not just because “having sex is dangerous” (like “coal mining is dangerous”) but because “having transactional sex is dangerous.” 

Your arguments really disturb me because they normalize existing depersonalization of women.

I will say again:  they normalize existing depersonalization of women.

Yes, you don’t see it.  That is exactly it.  You don’t see these women as moral agents, so you don’t understand why having that bought from them is problematic.

Comment #439: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:39 PM

BrianX,

Thank you—I think that is exactly it.  That people who have more power (and money is power) have to be really aware of how their use of that power might hurt someone with less power.

Comment #440: Ismone  on  07/22  at  04:43 PM

also re: #420:

Argument from incredulity. Fail.
Comment #428: BrianX

Surely you love sex. Go out and take it up the ass for money.

Comment #441: snobographer  on  07/22  at  04:46 PM

.  Not just because “having sex is dangerous” (like “coal mining is dangerous”) but because “having transactional sex is dangerous.”

Your arguments really disturb me because they normalize existing depersonalization of women.

I will say again:  they normalize existing depersonalization of women.

Yes, you don’t see it.  That is exactly it.  You don’t see these women as moral agents, so you don’t understand why having that bought from them is problematic.

Actually, I do see adult women who consent to sexual transactions as moral agents. Which is why I want their transactions to be as fair as possible, rather than assuming they are all the equivalent of child sex slaves who are being exploited and are incapable of thinking for themselves.

That people who have more power (and money is power) have to be really aware of how their use of that power might hurt someone with less power.

This is true. But which is most likely to be harmful to a woman:

1. A man who has money and purchases a $100 “happy ending” massage from some Korean massage parlor staffed with immigrants who were trafficked and whose passports were stolen?

2. A man who has money and purchases a $600 sex act from an experienced sex worker at a Nevada legal brothel?

3. Aristotle Onassis offering Jackie Kennedy complete financial security if she marries him.

Comment #442: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:57 PM

Oh, and by the way, am I the only one who finds some of snobographer’s comments borderline homophobic?

Comment #443: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  04:58 PM

I know it is 438 comments in, but I want to see if I can thread a needle here.

It’s hot, and my brain isn’t working so good, but I am going to try.

I interpreted the original post to be about how applying the transactional model as the base, core assumption underlying how all heterosexual sex is viewed is deeply screwed up and causes a huge number of problems. It also gives a useful frame for seeing where many of the other double-standards we see in how men and women are viewed sexually come from.

Amanda, and many others reading, are saying this blanket underlying assumption is bad because it leads to all these other terrible mindsets and consequences.

Dilan appears to be saying “Wait. You can’t say that no sex is ever transactional or that all aspects of transactional sex are bad, because that is not true for these reasons.”

I am going to assume everyone is on the side of good here and doing their best. If so, then Dilan is arguing against a misunderstanding that the OP was saying no sex can ever be transactional, and is not saying the transactional model is what sex should be viewed as.

If that’s the case, then the core of Amanda’s point as I understood it (and she may of course sweep in and point out I misread it completely), is agreed to by pretty much everyone here. The casting of heterosexual sex as by default and at its root as transactional is deeply harmful and a source of many of the other double-standard tropes in society concerning men and women which we all want gone. That individuals may choose to engage in transactional sex is separate from the point of this problem of the transactional frame as the core frame for all.

Is that it? Or am I just in heat stroke?

Comment #444: LC  on  07/22  at  05:10 PM

And I see while I was typing that, Ismone seems to have gotten to it already.  *grin*

(Ismone, btw, I’ve really enjoyed reading you on this thread.)

Comment #445: LC  on  07/22  at  05:11 PM

Dilan,

If you really want to be as fair as possible, treat it as a professional service, not a commodity.  Treating sex as an alienable commodity, instead of a service provided by a person, is depersonalizing, too.

And as for which is more harmful, I don’t give a fuck.  The overarching point of Amanda’s essay is that all sex, not just transactional sex, is treated as transactional.

You keep skipping the parts of my comment that deal with that.

As far is which would be most harmful, it depends upon how the buyer uses the power that, in your example, he has.

Comment #446: Ismone  on  07/22  at  05:14 PM

444 - Still haven’t addressed that egregious classism in comment 300 I see.

Comment #447: snobographer  on  07/22  at  05:15 PM

447 - “You keep skipping the parts of my comment that deal with that.”

That’s because he’s deeply invested in this system. Because he benefits from it.

Comment #448: snobographer  on  07/22  at  05:17 PM

Thanks, LC.  And I think you make an excellent point regarding how people are . . . disagreeing with Amanda, even though when really pressed, they don’t disagree.

I don’t understand why people are trying so hard to defend transactional sex, when Amanda explains that it is being applied to all female sexuality.  That all female sexuality is for sale, and the only way to get access to female sexuality is to buy it.  Which normalizes abuse (her whole “pussy vending machine” analogy) and also completely erases female desire.

Dilan,

It is not homophobic to suggest that purchased penetrative sex for women is like purchased penetrative sex for men.  Also, women do peg.

Comment #449: Ismone  on  07/22  at  05:17 PM

And as for which is more harmful, I don’t give a fuck.  The overarching point of Amanda’s essay is that all sex, not just transactional sex, is treated as transactional.

And I said that I agreed with that point way upthread.

My dispute is with saying that the REMEDY for that is to detransactionalize sex, rather than to ensure that any transactional sex is fair to the women involved. I think Amanda’s remedy is unworkable and overbroad.

As for treating it as a professional service, I think I said that I agreed with that upthread too. Indeed, to go off on a bit of a tangent, part of the reason why you have words like “slut” and “whore” thrown at all women is because sex work, rather than seen as a skilled, professional service involving intense work and which should be highly compensated, is seen as some trashy, debased, dehumanized thing that only the lowest sorts of creatures engage in. (That, by the way, gets to what I DON’T like about Nevada—they place huge restrictions on the sex workers reminiscent of the way India traditionally treats the Dalits.) So the worst sort of insult that you can call a woman is to imply she is a sex worker. That’s awful, and its harmful to all women as well as the sex workers themselves.

Comment #450: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  05:19 PM

It is not homophobic to suggest that purchased penetrative sex for women is like purchased penetrative sex for men.  Also, women do peg.

Ismone:

I think you missed what snob is doing. Take a look at comments 346 and 347, as well as 442. Snob is implying that any male who makes any sort of an argument justifying prostitution needs to engage in same-sex sexual relations, as if that is some sort of base thing for a male to do. I’d say it’s borderline homophobic. (In contrast, you have been quite respectful and civil in this entire thread.)

Comment #451: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  05:22 PM

Dilan,

Most purchasers of sex are male.  I read those comments.  The physical danger that inheres in being a female prostitute with male clients is not the same as the physical danger that inheres in being a male prostitute with female clients.  Oral sex performed on a male has a greater risk of causing an STI than oral sex performed on a female.

Comment #452: Ismone  on  07/22  at  05:25 PM

Dilan,

The problem I have with your comments is they are *all* a tangent.  And they are a tangent that reinforces and supports some very harmful ideas about women.

Amanda’s entire post is how treating consensual, non-transactional sex as transactional in our society leads to abuse.  That it is morally wrong.  Even though, after being berated, you acknowledged that there are moral problems with *true* transactional sex, you still threadjacked to talk about prostitution.  When this is really a post about how all women are treated as sellers with no sexual desire or agency.

How could you miss that?  I mean, really.

I had to berate you about enthusiastic consent in order to get you to agree to that.

Basically, you seem to be arguing that because prostitution exists, the way we talk about all sex should be in that framework.

That is ludicrous.  And saying that sex shouldn’t be transactional allows for better ways to discuss sex for sale, i.e., the one where women are treated as professionals performing a service, not simply vendors of a product.

Comment #453: Ismone  on  07/22  at  05:29 PM

And I said that I agreed with that point way upthread. [...] I think Amanda’s remedy is unworkable and overbroad.</i>

Dilan. Did you mention somewhere you are a lawyer?

I ask because it feels to me like you took this theme, which you say you agree with, and went right to the edge cases to check it for being overbroad and have been arguing from there (I’m not actually convinced Amanda argued no sex should ever be transactional, but I’ll put that aside for a second.) while others are arguing from the point of the validity of the core premise. (Because most people don’t jump to edge cases.)

The result is that it sounds (reads) like you are trying to defend transactional sex as a core premise, not testing the bounds of what happens if you say “all transactional sex is bad”.

(And, for the record, I am more in line with what I think both Ismone and BrianX said earlier - that transactional sex always needs to be looked at harder and double-checked, because the potential for abuse and harm is massive there, even if not always present.)

Comment #454: LC  on  07/22  at  05:33 PM

Dilan,

I mean, really, do you know what it is like to have someone want to buy sex from you?  I do.  I mean, explicitly buy.  And communicate that to you?

Do you know what it is like to have your sexual desires erased in a relationship?  Many, many women do.

The double-standard that Amanda references means that these experiences are common.  Changing the framework away from that has great results.  Supporting it with argument, like you have done here, hurts real people.  Assuming you were at all persuasive.

Comment #455: Ismone  on  07/22  at  05:34 PM

And again I cross-post with Ismone, who adds in the crucial point that if one does change the core frame, it allows for a better way to address those cases where transaction does come into it. (As the exception, rather than as “Well, that’s just the way men and women are.”)

Comment #456: LC  on  07/22  at  05:35 PM

Most purchasers of sex are male.  I read those comments.  The physical danger that inheres in being a female prostitute with male clients is not the same as the physical danger that inheres in being a male prostitute with female clients.  Oral sex performed on a male has a greater risk of causing an STI than oral sex performed on a female.

I think you are dead wrong about this. Really, telling any male who makes an argument about prostitution “go suck some dick for $20” or “go get fucked in the ass” is pretty much reaffirming every stereotype about “homosexuality = bad” that there is. (It’s also juvenile and inappropriate and unedifying, like most snark is. But I’ve found that people who like to use snark don’t care about such things, because using snark makes people who can’t make good arguments FEEL smart, so I’ll stick to pointing out it is homophobia.) It’s basically the equivalent of calling women sluts—it’s implying that the worst possible thing that you can say about a man is that he might be gay or have sex with other men. It has no place in civilized discourse, let alone feminist discourse, and the fact that you may disagree with my positions doesn’t justify it one bit.

Basically, you seem to be arguing that because prostitution exists, the way we talk about all sex should be in that framework.

Wrong. I am arguing that because lots of transactional sex exists (not just prostitution), and lots of it (especially OUTSIDE the realm of prostitution) is not actually immoral, talking about this issue as though the problem is that sex is exchanged for things, rather than that sex is exchanged for things in ways that are unfair to women, gets the issue wrong.

Comment #457: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  05:35 PM

And I must depart as I have to leave work, melt in the heat, and test out my new camera.

I suspect this thread will still be on-going when I get back to it. smile

Comment #458: LC  on  07/22  at  05:38 PM

@ helen w. h. #400

“PUAs are just socializing clueless men?”

Where did I say that? did you miss the part where I said I wasn’t going to defend the rampant mysogyny in the PUA community?  Let me quote that to you: “I’m not here to defend the ramptant [sic] mysogyny in the game community.” At this point, I can say black, and you’ll accuse me of saying white. I really don’t know what more I can tell you.

“223 - Answered by Amanda @ 229 - and basically dismissed by you at 241 with a hint of how dare you suggest I think pushing boundries is okay (becaue of your praise of PUA, by the way).  “This is how society works, man.””

I think you read me as saying that “society conditions men to push boundaries and harass women without realizing it”, or that I endorse the PUA ideas about pushing boundaries, which is not anything I meant in the least bit.  My point about PUAs is that they do endorse men changing themselves to become allegedly more attractive, rather than just “lowering the price”, as Amanda claimed. Some of the advice is neutral (work out more, don’t be needy), some of it extremely offensive (be a douchebag and don’t take a no), and some of it is debatable. I honestly didn’t realize I was implying I endorsed pushing boundaries.

“241 - other than that, most of what you said was “us poor men always have to initiate” with and finished “I’m not sure how this ended up being about disputing clear boundaries and consent.”  *
I don’t think I said anything about how being a man is unfair.

283 “answereing aimai at 273, then total proving for the rest of the thread that no, you are not, as you claimed “I’m interested in the lived experience of women and understanding how this dynmamic plays out from their perspective, especially in more liberal circles.” by seemingly refusing to believe what anyone says.”

I was offering my own lived experience to illustrate a problematic aspect of out slut-shaming sex norms.  I was also saying that I’m interested in the experiences of others.  I’m sorry if that bothers you.

“286 - gee, it sounds like you support that norm. “...a conventionally-attractive woman hitting hard on a guy conjures the image of prostitution or some tourist trap.””
If a scary-looking guy approached you at night on the street, should you be judged for upholding the norm of being cautious and walking away, even though that guy may be completely harmless and just wanted to know the time? And before you object, no I don’t think prostitutes are dangerous in the way that a rapist is dangerous.

“293 is where you go off the rails, claiming that anyone had said that desiring sex was entitlement.”
I said that saying “If you need sexual release, you can take care of that yourself” is dismissive and suggests that not being content with masturbation makes you entitled. I linked that with the notion that a higher-libido partner should just give up his desire for more sex and said it was problematic. To which snobographer at #298 objected that the desires to the low-libido person trump that of the high-libido person and so the high-libido person should just take care of this own business.  That was precisely the position I was arguing against. So, yes, there’s a perception here that not being content with masturbation when you’re in a relationship is a form of entitlement, and that you should just defer to your low-libido partner rather than ask for compromise or leave. Not everyone is down with GGG.

Comment #459: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  05:42 PM

Dilan,

You keep ignoring large swaths of my posts, in favor of misleadingly quoting small parts of it so you can quibble.  So I will repost, in context, points you should address that you have not, so here is 454.  The only part of it you addressed is where I characterized your beliefs.  Fine, maybe I’m wrong about htat, but deal with the rest:

The problem I have with your comments is they are *all* a tangent.  And they are a tangent that reinforces and supports some very harmful ideas about women.

Amanda’s entire post is how treating consensual, non-transactional sex as transactional in our society leads to abuse.  That it is morally wrong.  Even though, after being berated, you acknowledged that there are moral problems with *true* transactional sex, you still threadjacked to talk about prostitution.  When this is really a post about how all women are treated as sellers with no sexual desire or agency.

How could you miss that?  I mean, really.

I had to berate you about enthusiastic consent in order to get you to agree to that.

Basically, you seem to be arguing that because prostitution exists, the way we talk about all sex should be in that framework.

That is ludicrous.  And saying that sex shouldn’t be transactional allows for better ways to discuss sex for sale, i.e., the one where women are treated as professionals performing a service, not simply vendors of a product.

Comment #460: Ismone  on  07/22  at  06:06 PM

#442:

You’ve kind of run out of anything to say at this point, haven’t you?

Comment #461: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:10 PM

Really, telling any male who makes an argument about prostitution “go suck some dick for $20” or “go get fucked in the ass” is pretty much reaffirming every stereotype about “homosexuality = bad” that there is.


It’s only a grave indignity when it’s suggested to a straight man, right? Does he have to be white and middle-to-upper class bourgie too?

Comment #462: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:15 PM

#462 - It’s just a job like any other. And it’s doing something you love. What’s the problem? Seriously, I’m asking.

Comment #463: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:16 PM

#463: It’s an indignity when suggested to anyone who isn’t into that sort of thing. Which I’m not—not my kink. You’re really having a lot of trouble with this whole “only those who actually want to be there” concept, I think.

Comment #464: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:18 PM

If a scary-looking guy approached you at night on the street, should you be judged for upholding the norm of being cautious and walking away, even though that guy may be completely harmless and just wanted to know the time?
Comment #460: ArielNYC on 07/22 at 05:42 PM

Define “scary-looking.” Ted Bundy scary looking? Scott Peterson scary looking?

All you dudes in here have a lot to unpack and you need to STFU until you get your heads on straight.

Comment #465: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:20 PM

@465 - Except you and Dilan and Ariel are the ones insistently glossing over the fact that far and away most of the women and girls in prostitution have been coerced into it and are some of the most marginalized people there are. Even in Denmark and Nevada! Shocking but true!

Comment #466: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:23 PM

Ismone #441: Dan Savage actually has a principle on that too—the Campsite Rule. Leave your partner in better shape than you found them. He usually applies it to relationships with large age differences, but it really applies to all relationships.

Also:

#449 fallacy of composition, ad hominem, appeal to motivation
#462 JAQing off
#463 hasty generalization

And somewhere in there is a pretty classic Courtier’s Reply too, but I’m too lazy to go looking for the post number.

Comment #467: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:29 PM

Ariel - at the end of 460 we come to the central point on which we disagree.  If the high-libido -partner is going to insist on getting sex the other partner does not want, they are by definition not GGG.  Stop.  No one should have sex they really do not want to have just because some one else does.  Is it just a blow job?  Maybe sex at lunch during the work day?  Outside?  With an extra person?  Allowing someone to tie them up?  See why this becomes seriously problematic, even before you get to the typical power diferential.
Oh, and your lived experience?  You talk about young women, but the specific person is then a “girl”.  Huge issue.  Unless you think she should be able to refer to you as a boy, you are either: 1) involved with a woman way too young for you, or b) speaking like a paternaliztic ass who thinks women are children.  Also used “girl” fr potential partners in 223.
That tipped your hand as NOT being sincere or not having examined where you are arguing from.
I hardly need to illustrate more directly that sexually active or forward woman = crazed nympho whore to you than by quoting back your own suspisions of any even moderately attractive woman who comes on to a man.  That proves YOU already believe that, just in nicer terms.
So, are you arguing something your phrasing indicates you don’t believe?  If so, learn how to communicate better.  Seriously.

Comment #468: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  06:30 PM

#467: Now you’re just outright lying about what I said. Lame.

Comment #469: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:30 PM

“PUAs are just socializing clueless men?”

Where did I say that? did you miss the part where I said I wasn’t going to defend the rampant mysogyny in the PUA community?  Let me quote that to you: “I’m not here to defend the ramptant [sic] mysogyny in the game community.” At this point, I can say black, and you’ll accuse me of saying white. I really don’t know what more I can tell you.

Um, the part you took is out of the middle.  It’s the first and last sentence that give that impression.  See below:


Lastly, regarding the advice men get. From reading The Game (guilty pleasure), I remember a part about the Inner Game concept, which is all about self-improvement - working out, dressing up well, etc. Now, you could argue very persuasively that the devil is in the details (e.g. stylish vs clownish, confident vs arrogant etc), and I’m not here to defend the ramptant mysogyny in the game community. But that’s a different conversation than “Pick-up artist books and websites aren’t interested in teaching men how to improve the product so more women want to buy.”

Comment #470: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  06:33 PM

helen 469:

That’s where negotiated nonmonogamy comes in. It’s not for everyone, but for a lot of people in that sort of situation it might be worth a shot. (Of course, GGG also includes “well, if you think it’s a bad idea, then it probably is”.)

Comment #471: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:33 PM

So, at this point, I can show you where you are giving the impression you are an entitled douche and you will just go “la-la-la, am not!” and partially quote.  Good job, dude.

Comment #472: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  06:34 PM

Hey, all I’m saying is that nonmonogamy is an option. The rules about respecting your partner don’t stop applying just because one partner wants to open things up; going out and getting laid without your partner’s approval is cheating by any definition. It’s something that both partners have to be on the same page with or it shouldn’t happen.

Comment #473: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:38 PM

Ismone:

I didn’t ignore it. I think I addressed everything you said at some point in the thread. Thus, I am responding to the parts of your posts that I think mischaracterize my argument or which are for some reason more interesting.

I didn’t threadjack—the prostitution talk started way before I got here, and my argument was a (partial) defense of transactional sex, not prostitution, anyway.

I have said many times that I think part of the cause of the problems Amanda identifies is that transactional sex (especially in its NON-prostitution forms) gets a bad rap, and that the terms of such transactions are slanted against women. You may not agree with that argument, but I think it answers Amanda’s point. And I also observed that even if the problem IS transactional sex, there’s really no way to prevent it from happening.

On enthusiastic consent, this may not describe you, but many of the commenters (including sometimes Amanda) have taken the line that because a man is compensating a woman for sex, ergo, she wouldn’t want to fuck him otherwise, ergo, there cannot be enthusiastic consent. That’s the form of the theory that I object to. Again, I said this up above.

And the rest of your comment I addressed earlier.

Comment #474: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  06:38 PM

It’s only a grave indignity when it’s suggested to a straight man, right? Does he have to be white and middle-to-upper class bourgie too?

Actually I don’t give a crap about what your comments say about me. I do give a crap about what they imply about gay men.

Comment #475: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  06:39 PM

#470 - And you’re lying to yourself that there’s such a thing as the Happy Hooker. They only act like they like it because you pay them. And you know it.

Comment #476: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:44 PM

@476 - Go take one up the ass. See if you can get $50 for it.

Comment #477: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:45 PM

#477 tu quoque

Comment #478: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:45 PM

By the way, negotiated nonmonogamy IS indeed another topic entirely (and is itself a form of transactional sex, when you think about it), but one of the reasons why Savage’s thoughts on sexuality seem to me to be compelling is precisely because without some amount of both GGG and negotiated nonmonogamy, it seems to me you could have very few long-lasting relationships, simply because people’s sex drives change over time.

Saying “well you can masturbate”, to me, sounds just like the religious right telling women who don’t want to get pregnant “well, you don’t have to have sex”. Well, sure, you don’t have to, but many people want to. Notice—they aren’t “entitled” to. They want to. And one of the premises of the pro-choice position is that this is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do and not something that someone should just be told to live without.

So if the only ethical choices for a couple where one partner’s sex drive changes over time vis-a-vis the other partner’s are (a) masturbation (and note—some people don’t even like it when their partners masturbate, especially if pornography is involved) or (b) breaking up, you are going to get a lot of (b) and a lot of conduct defined as unethical (i.e., cheating) as well.

There’s plenty of breathing room between “men are entitled to have sex” and “men who want to have sex need to just masturbate and get over it”. (And same for women, of course.) The truth lies somewhere in between.

Comment #479: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  06:48 PM

@476 - Keep moving those goalposts so you don’t have to address your misogyny, classism, and male entitlement. Atta boy!

Comment #480: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:48 PM

@480 - You’re overcomplicating things. If somebody wants to fuck you, they’ll fuck you. If not, leave them the fuck alone.

Comment #481: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:49 PM

#481 Ooh, the back end of a Gish Gallop.

Comment #482: BrianX  on  07/22  at  06:51 PM

@482 - Go suck a dick.

Comment #483: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:52 PM

Comment #483: BrianX - See comment #300.

Comment #484: snobographer  on  07/22  at  06:54 PM

@helen w. h. #471

My point about PUAs was that they do support transformation. It’s just that this transformation can be problematic. You may decide you need to work out and be more confident,  and you can also decide to be obnoxious and inconsiderate, and much worse. I think I’m more in agreement with Clarisse Thorn on this than Amanda as to how much usefulness there is in the game concept, despite its very grave shortcomings. But either way, my point was to disproves the idea that men are told to stay as they are and just manipulate women’s self- esteem. I understand it’s a rather narrow point, I guess I could have made it a bit clearer.

So mea culpa. But I still find your reading comprension severely lacking If you can claim that I portayed PUAs as innocuous despite my explicit acknowledgement of the mysogyny in the community.

Comment #485: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  06:59 PM

Dilan,

That simply is not an accurate summary of our conversation.

(1) I have repeatedly explained, repeatedly, that the problem is the transactional model is applied to ALL SEX.  ALL OF IT.  And women who are engaging in non-transactional, consensual sex are described and/or treated as though they are selling sex.  That is Amanda’s point, too.  You are, as LC pointed out, trying to criticize Amanda’s argument by pointing to extreme cases. 

(2) But even with transactional sex, I and many others have shown, and gotten you to agree, that treating it as commodity instead of, say, a service, is bad.  That treating it as a commodity that should be *expected* from women is bad.

(3) This is a discussion about morality, not public policy.  And even in public policy land, a public policy informed by the idea that (1) women have sexual agency, sex is not something they *always* sell, it is something they participate in, (2) sex is not a fungible commodity that you can “buy” from a sex worker or a non-sex worker by simply providing an asking price, you have to ensure that they are communicating consent, (3) sex workers are professionals providing a personal service, not sellers of a commodity, and should be treated as such. 

You have never addressed the point numbered one.  Not once.  Not even close.  I don’t think you have answered 3 adequately, and with regard to 2, you haven’t explained why, if this is so, you are still arguing with Amanda’s position.

Comment #486: Ismone  on  07/22  at  07:04 PM

I think it’s officially getting a little intense here…sometimes I wonder what the real life conversation would be like if you were to pluck 10 random commenters and throw them into a room for an hour.

Comment #487: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  07:04 PM

Ariel,

I’ve been being pretty mellow with you, but you are kind of being a jerk.  I mean, you were talking about structuring sexual norms around consent for low and high libido partners based on the fact that in the hypothetical future, you would be sad if you were in a sexless marriage.

Potential-future sexual deprivation, and how you think you would feel about it, does not trump the lived experience of actual people who have been pressured for sex, and abused by that pressure.

Comment #488: Ismone  on  07/22  at  07:07 PM

Ismone:

1. I don’t think the fact that the transactional model is applied to all sex is a problem with the model. I think it’s a problem with how a sexist society applies the model to the detriment of women.

2. I am still arguing with Amanda’s position because (a) from previous posts, I know she takes a view of enthusiastic consent that would exclude transactional sex, and (b) I don’t think that it is inherent in the recognition that there is transactional sex that you have to assume that women (or indeed, any providers—remember men who have sex with men are involved too) are commodities.

3. I don’t know why you think I haven’t answered 3 adequately; we’ve been discussing it for a couple of hundred posts now.

Comment #489: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  07:08 PM

Dilan,

1.  So, you think it is accurate that sex always involves a buyer and a seller?  Really?  It is never a mutual participatory act?  Again, Amanda’s problem is that the transactional model is applied to *all sex.*  Amanda’s problem is not that you want to call transactional sex transactional.  (Although I have a problem with that frame, see below.)

2.  I see your quibble with what you say Amanda’s notion of enthusiastic consent is, but you still haven’t justified a transactional model over a professional/service model.  And of course, a professional/service model would be specific to transactional sex, not non-transactional sex.  Or, if applied to non-transactional sex (I am going to treat my sex partners with the same dignity and respect I would a hired professional) it would still be superior to the transactional model.

3.  Nope.  You really haven’t.  People have repeatedly pointed out that non-transactional framing of even purchased sex is better than transactional framing, and you have kind of agreed, and then gone back to defending the transactional model.

Comment #490: Ismone  on  07/22  at  07:46 PM

This post is right fucking on all the way through.

My question to the people defending transactional sex: Assuming for the sake of argument that someone can consent to exchange sex for money, how in the world would the “buyer” be able to distinguish between situations where the sex worker is genuinely enjoying this expression of their sexuality from situations where coercion exists? When you’re mutually engaging in sex for the pleasure of all participants, you can use the enthusiastic consent standard. But if you’re paying someone to do something they won’t do for free, and that something is faking enthusiasm for sex, how could you ever know if they’re doing it because they want to or because they feel they have to in order to make a living?

I know I only want to have sex with people who also want to have sex with me. I don’t want to pay someone to fake wanting to have sex with me. This is why I think Amanda’s probably right about johns - I can’t even comprehend why someone would want to bribe someone else into having sex with them unless they feel entitled to have a sexual fantasy performed exactly the way they want it to be done, without having to worry about the enjoyment of the other person, and thus desire transactional sex because it is precisely the kind of sex where they are in full control of the encounter and where the other person’s desires are irrelevant. That’s a really fucked up way to relate to other people.

Comment #491: reverie  on  07/22  at  07:51 PM

Btw, I keep seeing my namesake invoked in reference to supporting real world prostitution with its parade of horribles. I never made any such claim. I actually did read that Guardian article and thought it was horrific. So no, I’m not here to defend real-world johns either.  I lean toward legalization with strict regulation, but I’m also aware this this far from perfect.

What I am curious about is trying to undetstand the underlying reason we oppose or support prostitution as a matter of abstract morality

So let’s take a very far-fetched hypothetical
1. All prostitution was effectiverly outlawed, except for extremely high-end services
2. There’s an equal number gigolos and female prostitues, and they earn the same high income
3. Perfect safety and consent (I know this one is really contentious, but let’s say so for argument’s sake)

I think most here would still oppose this model because they oppose transactional sex. The reasoning as I understand is that transactional sex degrades all sex and sexual relations, and it’s inherently impossible to maintain healthy sexual norms so long as it exists. i think that’s the point Amanda is making. The opposite point is that you as a free agent are allowed to sell sexual services and maximize your earning potential as someone who is skilled and talented in this particular regard. Another point would be that we draw a somewhat arbitrary line between what kind of pleasure is permissible. It’s perfectly legit for a masseuse to rub someone all over with body oil. It’s not legit for that rubbing to apply to   private parts. We endow the touching of sexual organs with special meaning. Which is to say, pleasure and sex can be quite fluid.

Anyways, what I find surprising is that no one seems to just come out and say “I find the upholding of certain sexual norms more important that the free will of consenting adult individuals.” Which is a perfectly legit argument if you accept that the transactional sex cannot be compartmentalized and people can’t hold two different ideas in their heads at the same time. I guess I’m something of a sexual utopian and so I’m inclined to think that there’s enough potential in sex positivity to have our cake and eat it too.

Comment #492: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  08:06 PM

1. No. And I agree that with respect to non-transactional sex, Amanda’s frustration is well-founded. It’s just not caused by the existence of rhetorical frameworks to describe transactional sex. It’s caused by general misogyny and standard-issue denials of female sexual agency.

2. I think a professional service model should be used with respect to commercial transactional sex. (Not sure how it applies to my hypothetical wife giving her house painting husband a blowjob or Jackie Onassis, but it applies well to sex work.) So I’m not sure how we disagree on that.

3. I defend the transactional model as descriptive of some sorts of sex, and normatively nonproblematic with respect to a subset of those forms of sex. I don’t defend it as describing or prescribing all sex acts.

Comment #493: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:15 PM

Anyways, what I find surprising is that no one seems to just come out and say “I find the upholding of certain sexual norms more important that the free will of consenting adult individuals.”

I have the same objection, but I don’t find it as surprising. We are socialized from the get-go that sex is basically different from anything. That’s a central precept of just about every major organized religion in the US, and it lurks behind the puritanistic sexuality that forms the backbone of US history.

So whenever someone says “no, sex really isn’t different from X, or Y, or Z”, it runs against the felt intuitions of many Americans, and not only religious people.

I am not the right person to speak for sex-positive feminism (actually Amanda has a much, much better track record than I do on it), but it does seem to me that at the heart of it has to be some sort of skepticism at the belief that sex is special and different from everything else, and a conviction that these sorts of arguments are bad for women and gender equality. And that that’s why all sorts of traditional, patriarchal rules regarding sex that religion, government, and society imposed should be carefully reviewed and often opposed.

But that can create cognitive dissonance when it runs up against people’s felt, often socialized, intuitions that sex really is its own special category.

Comment #494: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:25 PM

@ Ismone

“you were talking about structuring sexual norms around consent for low and high libido partners based on the fact that in the hypothetical future, you would be sad if you were in a sexless marriage.”

Why wouldn’t I be sad? Why would I be a jerk if god forbid that did happen to me? You seem to be assuming that sexless marriages are not a common problem in society, and that we shouldn’t think of ways to ameliorate that. I want the kind of sexual norms that make everyone as happy as possible.

“Potential-future sexual deprivation, and how you think you would feel about it, does not trump the lived experience of actual people who have been pressured for sex, and abused by that pressure.”

You’re assuming that I endorse abuse. Besides, I raised the very question of pressuring your partner by threatning to break the relationship. My point was that even if you are not a manipulative jerk, even if you do care about your partner, but you also care about your sexual needs, then deciding that it’s better to leave is a form of pressure. You can say the most sincere and regretful goodbye, and it will be a form of pressure. And that’s something I’d be happy to hear from people who did have to endure this scenario, and I certainly don’t mean to dismiss their very real pain. I already said before that I was a bit glib about this and that I was hoping be more sensitive and not just apply brute logic. It’s very different when you write anonymously on a discussion board then when you say something to one’s face, and in reflecting on my tone I do realize why my words could rub someone the wrong way.

Comment #495: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  08:25 PM

1.  The framing of all sex as transaction is the very misogyny she is complaining of.  In other words, she is saying, people, talking about sex between men and women as transactional *is itself* misogynistic.  And inaccurate.  In other words, it is misogynistic to speak as if all women are engaging in sex not out of desire, but obligation.  Misogyny happens through language and moral framing, in this instance.

2.  Then why have you been defending transactional sex at all?  Why didn’t you say, Amanda’s right, the transactional approach is bad, but I think when discussing commercial sex, the professional model is better. 

3.  Then why are you arguing with Amanda?  Her very point is we shouldn’t act as if all sex is transactional, and all women are sellers.  That this demeans women and denies their sexual agency.

Comment #496: Ismone  on  07/22  at  08:27 PM

#492:

I guess I would answer that by saying your model assumes an either/or. Can we really assume that Jackie Onassis didn’t want to have sex with Ari? She probably didn’t want to do it if he didn’t offer her financial security in exchange, but she might have been enthusiastic about doing it if he did.

And once you insert that into the paradigm, I think you have the answer to your question. If the person is not interested in having sex for you given the explicit terms of the transaction, it’s still wrong to attempt to coerce the person or cajole the person into saying yes. On the other hand, if he or she says “hell yes! you bet I’ll fuck you in exchange for $15,000!”, that’s a different matter.

Comment #497: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:30 PM

Ismone:

I think at this point we are going around in circles. I explained what my objection to Amanda’s framing is, and also what I agree with her on.

Comment #498: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:31 PM

ArielNYC at 493,

The only norms I am endorsing are ones that say you have to treat people with respect.  I happen to think that the abuse and power inequalities inherent in sex work now, as it stands in the real world, make it so that buying sex cannot be ethical.

But that is not the point.  The point is that treating sex as a product to be bought and sold in non-commercial circumstances, as we do, is deeply dehumanizing to women.  Not only that, but I have gotten most people to agree that it is bad for actual sex workers to treat sex as a product.

The language and framing and moral treatment of sex as an alienable commodity causes actual harm.  It denies that women have sexual agency.  That is a huge problem.

The only moral objection I have to purchasing prostitutes isn’t to the sex of it—it is to the power imbalance.  I don’t mind that the prostitute is selling sexual services, I mind that the morally, you guys aren’t saying that they buyer has to try and treat the person selling sexual services like a person who they are in a position to harm because they have more power.  And becaused purchased sex, in the here and now, leads to measurable trauma in those doing the selling.

Comment #499: Ismone  on  07/22  at  08:32 PM

Dilan at 495,

You have shown no such thing.  I have repeatedly said that if the harms inherent in sex work (i.e., PTSD) are in other occupations, they should be banned too. 

And, at 499,

I don’t think we are going around in circles.  I think when you answer specific questions, it is clear that we don’t really differ, and you just want to say that Amanda is wrong because you illogically believe that we should define the rule based on the exceptions.

I will say again—the ideas you are supporting, such as by undermining enthusiastic consent and saying that because some sex is transactional, describing all sex as transactional is not misogynistic, harm real people.  You should think about that before making them.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I would rather go chat with a man who doesn’t see sex, with me or anyone else, as transactional.

Comment #500: Ismone  on  07/22  at  08:37 PM

You have shown no such thing.  I have repeatedly said that if the harms inherent in sex work (i.e., PTSD) are in other occupations, they should be banned too. 

I answered this upthread. You can’t. So long as society consumes coal, there will be coal mining. So long as there are hostile nations, we need a military (although we certainly could be less imperialist with the one we have). So long as we eat vegetables, someone’s going to have to be out there picking lettuce in 100 degree heat in the Salinas Valley. And so long as there are people who want to purchase sexual services, there will be sex workers.

There will always be harsh occupations. But they don’t HAVE to be dehumanizing, and they don’t HAVE to be underpaid, and they don’t HAVE to be the realm of criminals and slave-traffickers. That only happens because we, as a society, let these people down.

Comment #501: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:42 PM

It’s funny, because if someone told me, “Go finger a girl for $20”, I wouldn’t see that as an “indignity”, despite the fact that I’m straight, nor would I necessarily see it as homophobic. Makes me wonder if the real objection is feeling emasculated by being cast as potential “sellers”.

Comment #502: Liz212  on  07/22  at  08:47 PM

It’s funny, because if someone told me, “Go finger a girl for $20”, I wouldn’t see that as an “indignity”, despite the fact that I’m straight, nor would I necessarily see it as homophobic. Makes me wonder if the real objection is feeling emasculated by being cast as potential “sellers”.

Actually, it’s because the social valence of saying that a woman is interested in other women is different from the social valence of saying that a man is interested in other men.

The better analogy is if someone told you “go suck someone’s dick on Sunset Blvd. for $20”.

That said, as I said upthread, I don’t really care what snob thinks of me. I do care that she uses insults that imply that there is something debased about a man having sex with other men. (And I also care that her posts are 99.9 percent juvenile snark and 0.1 percent argument.)

Comment #503: Dilan Esper  on  07/22  at  08:54 PM

Argument from incredulity. Fail.

Not really.  It’s not about not believing that sex workers cannot love their jobs, it’s about the nature of labor - and the dangers of conflating labor with leisure time just because the mechanics involved are similar.

Even when you love your job, there is a reason that people pay you to do it, and that’s because you are never going to always love every bit of it at the exact time that you are asked to do it.  The point is not that sex workers can never give meaningful consent to the sex they get paid for, the point is that

1) sex workers are consenting becausethey are getting paid - ie, they are consenting to provide a service for a fee - not to have sex with someone in the non-labor idea of the word.  Like artists working on commission, they are (generally) doing it for the money, not because they have an overwhelming desire to paint that particular portrait.  And even when the patron gives the artist a lot of leeway, there are still (sometimes unspoken) limits as to what the artist can do and still retain patronage.  The same is true of sex work.  This doesn’t make it not-consent, but it is not “enthusiastic consent” as it is generally defined because enthusiastic consent is about women (in general) having desire too, not just about if the act is legal or morally above board.  If one party is more likely to self-censor because they fear they may not get paid, that may still be consent but it is not enthusiastic consent.

2) when you use language that defines the transaction as a thing being sold rather than a service (or, better yet, expertise), you dehumanize the people who are doing the selling and reduce them to their bodies.  Which in turn makes it much harder for them to bargain safely.  When you do this in the context of a heteronormative culture that defines all sex as a transaction, you are also helping create limits on what kids of sex can be sold.  The point of snobographer’s comments about “sucking it” or “taking it” is not to try to get anyone to panic at the thought of gay sex (rolls eyes) but that even in homosexual sex work it is generally the person “sucking it” that is getting paid and the one that is getting sucked, etc. that is doing the paying.  So, even among men, the idea of sex as a commodity and not a service places severe cultural informed and heternormative limits on what kinds of services sex workers can attempt to offer and still expect to get paid.  -tl,dr:  treating all (hetero) sex as a transaction makes it harder for people (of all orientations) who do actually take money for sexual services to do so safely and in ways that make them happy.

Comment #504: jennygadget  on  07/22  at  09:07 PM

jennygadget:

Strictly speaking this is all true, though I admit to glossing over it for simplicity’s sake. It should still be up to the worker, and no one else, whether to be involved in it or not.

Comment #505: BrianX  on  07/22  at  09:17 PM

@Dilan Esper #480

Pretty much what I meant. And I also point again to my example of Marcus Bachmann treating gays with masturbation therapy. For some reason there’s a reluctance to draw a link between these issues. I think it’s confusing “Sex is very important to me as a human being” and “I am allowed to coerce someobody to have sex with me because I need sex” and “I’m allowed to express my need for sex with relationship partner even if it means that there’s an implicit pressure of terminating the relationship if these needs cannot be met.” This goes back to whether sex can be treated as a wholesome quid-pro-quo. I’m actually wondering what the enthusiastic consent model says about doing things you’re not enthusiastic about but that you know make your partner happy and how that intersects with GGG.

Comment #506: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  09:27 PM

@ Ismone #497

1.  “The framing of all sex as transaction is the very misogyny she is complaining of”

  Trust me, my eyes roll whenever I read something like the notorious Liz Jones piece in the Daily Mail. Maybe I’ve just been very lucky to have shared my life with very sexual and sex positive women, but I’m sure I’m there are many more out there. I’m actually wondering what the statistics are as far as how many people think that women don’t like sex and just do it as a transaction.

2. “2.  Then why have you been defending transactional sex at all?  Why didn’t you say, Amanda’s right, the transactional approach is bad, but I think when discussing commercial sex, the professional model is better.  “
My main reaction to Amanda’s piece was trying to understand what it would take to transition to a society where there’s no perceived one-way path of sexual desire and pursuit. I’m for enthusiastic consent., though I’m not sure about how it compares with GGG. I’m also allowing space of transactional sex in my framework, though obviously I’m much more conflicted about the latter.

3.“Then why are you arguing with Amanda?  Her very point is we shouldn’t act as if all sex is transactional, and all women are sellers.  That this demeans women and denies their sexual agency.”
I’m all for sexual agency and liberation for everyone. My argument was that I can say that I don’t accept the social script, but the script doesn’t just change thru my sheer (at least individual) power of will.  I’m still going against a huge wall of social norms that I have to accept it if I don’t want to be alone.  That’s why just telling a young woman you want to hookup instead of date may be honest and encouraged in theory, but in practice this sort of transperancy comes with tons of baggage (a female friend actually forwarded me a feminist piece with precisely this type of advice).  In practice, men are just more blase about sex than women for all sorts of good and bad reasons (higer STD risk for women = good reason. Slut-shaming=bad reason).

Comment #507: ArielNYC  on  07/22  at  10:06 PM

Men are much more likely to find anonymous no-strings-attached sex appealing than women are.  If you have ever lived near a gay bar you will routinely see guys who have hooked up engaged in sex in alleys near by.  For the most part women don’t behave that way or don’t find that appealing.  There may be some exceptions but by and large that’s true.  If you place an M4M ad looking for quick sex you will get a ton of replys, its highly doubtful that a W4W or a M4W ad would generate many serious replies.

Because men have a desire for no strings sex that creates a natural market for prostitutes.  They are providing a service that many men are willing to pay.  There is a reason why its ‘the oldest profession’.  There is a demand for it and for low skilled women it pays better than working at 7-11 or McDonalds. 

I would argue that a man soliciting a woman with money is far more ethical than leading a woman on pretending he is interested in a relationship when he just wants someone for sex.  In that way I think Eliot Spitzer and David Vitter are sexually far more ethical than Bill Clinton or Newt Gingrich. Its not even close.  With Vitter and Spitzer the appeal was a no strings liaison, and Ashley DuPre was well compensated for the services she provided.  It would strain credulity to think that she was any sort of victim.

Comment #508: Brian7  on  07/22  at  10:35 PM

Assuming for the sake of argument that someone can consent to exchange sex for money, how in the world would the “buyer” be able to distinguish between situations where the sex worker is genuinely enjoying this expression of their sexuality from situations where coercion exists?

How do I know that the landscaper I hired who worked in 90 degree weather for three hours enjoyed the expression of his landscaping services and took pride and satisfaction from his work?

How do I know that he accepted my offer not for love of landscaping but because he needed the money because he has a daughter with asthma and needed to pay doctors bills?

People engage in all sorts of work for money and make a living in all sorts of ways.

Comment #509: Brian7  on  07/22  at  10:52 PM

Brian7:

Legitimate, yes, but considering the risk involved in prostitution particularly (other forms of sex work less so) it might be more reasonable to compare with someone working in a mine.

Comment #510: BrianX  on  07/22  at  11:30 PM

Wow, this is still going on.

Comment #511: LC  on  07/23  at  12:04 AM

Except that lawn work and sex aren’t the same thing. Lawn work is not by nature a social relationship of mutual pleasure. The plants aren’t inside your body and you don’t have the possibility of emotional connection with the plants. The cultural narratives regarding gardening are not nearly as intimate or powerful as they are in the case of sexual activity. In the worst case scenario where your gardener hates their job, there is still no risk that your lawn worker will feel sexually assaulted.

This analogy only works if you assume that a significant portion of lawn workers are trafficked or otherwise intimately coerced. If that’s the case, then you should obviously mow your own fucking lawn.

My question was about how you can feel comfortable that, in buying sex, you are not assaulting someone. You did not address that.

Comment #512: reverie  on  07/23  at  03:27 AM

Also - my post was not questioning that some people might have a genuine interest in selling; my point is that those people are indistinguishable from those who are being victimized, or at least it’s very hard to tell the difference.

Comment #513: reverie  on  07/23  at  03:30 AM

Brian7: “Because men have a desire for no strings sex that creates a natural market for prostitutes.  “

That assertion would make sense in a universe where most prostitutes are men.

It’s not male desire that creates prostitution. It’s male presumption that men are entitled to buy sex.

Comment #514: Jesurgislac  on  07/23  at  04:07 AM

Because men have a desire for no strings sex that creates a natural market for prostitutes

That assertion would make sense in a universe where most prostitutes are men.

Heterosexual men generally aren’t sex workers because there isn’t a market demand for their services. So many men would be willing to provide said services for free and you don’t have nearly the same level demand it would be impossible for a man to support himself let alone any dependents.  Its like in the porn industry male performers are paid significantly less than female performers and its all but impossible for a man to make his way into the adult entertainment industry unless he does gay porn.

It’s not male desire that creates prostitution. It’s male presumption that men are entitled to buy sex.

It is precisely male desire</i> that creates the demand for prostitution services.  Women (or gay men) then seek to exploit that desire and do things like place ads on the internet so men with those desires will pay them to engage in sex acts.

Comment #515: Brian7  on  07/23  at  05:08 AM

Re Comment #513 and 514 Reverie

Every job has its own challenges, risks, and unpleasantness Sex work is dangerous and that danger is aggravated by it being criminalized for the most part.  I think it would be better for the workers if the activity was decriminalized so the workers who wished to leave the work would have access to police protection without putting themselves in legal jeopardy.

If a sex worker is an adult, speaks English, is reasonably articulate, and the transaction isn’t done via a pimp the presumption has to be that you are dealing with an adult who knows what sex is, and is willing to sell her sexual services. Its rather patronizing to assume that someone doing what most people is unpleasant is a victim.

No one should be forced into sex work but neither should a sex worker be denied the right to earn a living.  Would a sex worker rather engage in sexual services for money or would she prefer a potential patron to masturbate because some people don’t approve of transactional sex?

Comment #516: Brian7  on  07/23  at  05:55 AM

Also, if you force someone to do lawn work, you will only be charged based on the force you used and not the actual lawn work.

Also, a child can perform lawn work for an adult legally. There is no age of consent for lawn work.

You are not naked infront of your employer (i.e completely vulnerable) during lawn work.  This matters, because if shit happens you’d be less restrained from running off as opposed to being afraid of a bunch of strangers seeing you naked and your clothes are left in the room/ having to find a way to get home when naked. People seem to not realize how hard it must be to even get naked infront of a stranger in any situation.

It’s a lot harder for an employer to directly force you do perform certain lawn acts, i.e there is no “cum on a girl’s face against her will” or “stick it in her ass and don’t take it out even if she begs” or “choke her” or “push her head down really hard on his cock”  equivalent in lawn work.  You do not have to deal with an employers genitals or bodily fluids, them touching you, etc in lawn work.

It’s legal to do lawn work in public.

It’s legal to have your child do lawn work for you, even to force your child to do lawn work for you.

And, obviously, there is not a “rape culture” in relation to lawn work that says that lawn owners are entitled for you to perform lawn work ( by any means necessary, whether you like it or not ). A culture that breeds resentment and hatred of lawn workers because of said entitlement.  A culture that says that lawn owner’s dominance over lawn workers makes them who they are. That makes a world of difference.

I don’t know if that stuffs been addressed, because I skip over comments to stop my day from being messed up, but you cannot see “sex” in an abstract, as if it’s just a word that represents doing something.

Comment #517: rawwesthide  on  07/23  at  07:59 AM

“Heterosexual men generally aren’t sex workers because there isn’t a market demand for their services. So many men would be willing to provide said services for free”

Sexual orientation has nothing to with sex work.

A heterosexual man could perfectly well function as a sex worker providing sex on demand to anyone interested in paying him. He would probably not have sex with the people he actually desired: most sex workers don’t. Your presumptin that “so many” heterosexual men would be willing to perform sexual acts with people they did not desire, without themselves experiencing any sexual pleasure, for free, is moronic to say the least.  Seriously, how many straight men do you know who hang out at the local gay bars willing to provide sexual services to gay men for free? That’s the model you seem to be envisaging - straight men longing to perform sexual services for anyone, for free.

“It is precisely male desire that creates the demand for prostitution services.”

Nope. Male desire by itself just creates erections. It’s the male belief that they’re entitled to buy sexual services.

“Women (or gay men) then seek to exploit that desire and do things like place ads on the internet so men with those desires will pay them to engage in sex acts.”

Sex workers exploit (if that’s the word) the male belief that they’re entitled to buy sexual services, by offering to provide them.

Comment #518: Jesurgislac  on  07/23  at  08:30 AM

Lol. Most guys have such a masturbatory view of sexuality that, when being paid to SERVE someone sexually, they actually believe that they can get pleasure from it!

Picture this:
You are getting naked in front of a stranger, who is judging you on every aspect of your body. The come up to you and touch and feel you like you’re a dog, make comments and act in a way that would be conventionally rude.

The number 1 prerogative is to please the girl in every way you can. In your looks, the way you talk, the way you act, everything.  She does not acknowledge your free will, or your own desires.

You guys do missionary,  she makes a bunch of odd demands on how she wants you to hit it “just right” You get bored, you get tired, you can’t do it as fast or as hard as she wants you to anymore, but you keep going and act like you’re having the greatest time of your life. It’s not about what you want.

You don’t get oral sex,  or if so done in an aloof way, like she’s playing with a toy. She gives you minuscule fleeting pleasure but misses things that you know would get your off, but you shut your damn mouth because it’s not about you. You tell her what you’d like and she looks up at you angrily, if she wanted to care about someone else’s preferences and desires SHE WOULDN’T HAVE GOTTEN A PROSTITUTE (hint hint ). Right now, she wants to wiggle your dick like it’s a joystick and press your balls like it’s buttons, and it really turns her on,  and you damn well better look like it turns you on too. No matter how bored and uninterested you are.

This person who seemingly has such little respect for you opens her legs and tells you to get down there. Suddenly, it looks a bit disgusting, smells a bit smelly, and this is not the porno fantasy anymore. You have to make this girl cum in the exact way she wants to cum, follow every one of her orders with no praise. She pushes your face down into it to the point you can barely breathe, it’s all around uncomfortable for you, but you hear her moaning and having a great time. If you take your head away she complains that you ruined it and that she was “almost there”.

So , she tells you to get on the bed and rides you in a way that’s obviously very uncomfortable to you, as it would be for anyone, but it’s like she doesn’t even know you’re there. But it turns her on, so you have to act like you like it. She cums and gets off, and puts her clothes on. Maybe smacks your ass while you’re still naked, and then leaves. She never considers that you didn’t cum.

Now, hey hey, Maybe this is all wrong. I don’t deny a possibility that because women are so conditioned that they’ve always got to serve men in some way that a girl would try to “do good by” a male prostitute. And I don’t deny that some girls might pay somebody to be Macho Man or whatever, but the onus is still on him to pleasure her over everything else in the exact ways that she wants to be pleasured, regardless of his feelings.( just like if a guy got a girl and told her to “dominate” him). Under the same metrics of what prostitution is for female prostitutes, this is what it’d probably be for male prostitutes. How many guys would still want to do it under these conditions?

Comment #519: rawwesthide  on  07/23  at  11:12 AM

Whoops , I wrote that last paragraph with the implication that the guys who play “macho man” parts in porn and prostitution are “being themselves ” and not acting. They’re probably acting just as much as the women, and they have to play that part no matter what and show no humanity.  They have to accept that they’re being judged physically be people who aren’t nearly as good looking as them (assuming they’re muscular )  but feel entitled to them, and their best possible abilities, act like they’re totally into everything, do what they don’t want to do, etc.

Comment #520: rawwesthide  on  07/23  at  11:42 AM

Rawwesthide has done most of the heavy lifting in answering Brian, but I do have a bit to add.

Brian, can you imagine paying someone to be your friend? Would you get any enjoyment out of going to the bar, a movie, dinner, playing mini golf, or whatever it is you do for fun - with someone who is only pretending to be your friend because you pay them? Imagine you get to choose every movie, every restaurant, every activity whatsoever. You often end up choosing things the other person hates, but they pretend to like sushi and stupid action flicks because you’re their boss. Wouldn’t that obviously be a hollow imitation of what true friendship is?

This is why Amanda’s point that sex is a social relationship is so important. A fake friendship is deeply unsatisfying compared to an actual friendship. Similarly, a sexual encounter in which one person’s desire is forged is both lacking in any true connection and exploitative. Sex is fundamentally a social connection that brings mutual pleasure, and if you have to pay someone to fake pleasure, you’re doing it wrong. I’m not saying you have to be totally head over heels in love with someone to have sex with them, but you have to at least kind of give a shit about them while you’re with them. You’re not even doing the bare minimum of giving a shit if your social relationship is transactional rather than reciprocal.

Personally, I try to limit my participation in exploitation; I may not be able to fully escape it in the work place but I sure as hell don’t exploit my friends or sex partners, because *that* I can control. (I still try to reduce the exploitation of actual economic transactions, obviously.) Why would anyone forgo genuine sexual connection and disregard the possibility that they’re exploiting someone, unless they get off on the power of making someone fulfill their fantasies precisely as they are dictated, without regard for the other person’s desires?

Comment #521: reverie  on  07/23  at  02:13 PM

@reverie #522

“Why would anyone forgo genuine sexual connection and disregard the possibility that they’re exploiting someone, unless they get off on the power of making someone fulfill their fantasies precisely as they are dictated, without regard for the other person’s desires?”

I can’t touch on the exploitation part because I think you mean lack of true consent and I certainly don’t support that. But if your question is about how can you be happy with fulfilling your sexual fantasies without any genuine sexual connection, my answer wpuld be that people are run the whole gamut of sexual rainbow, and what you want on Monday is not what you want on Thursday, or when you’re 25 or 35.
People hook up all the time without any super-special connection. Some people like having wedding cakes thrown on their faces. Some people like dressing up in diapers. I think we have to be very careful when discussing prostitution to distinguish between “This is not the sort of sexuality I like, and therefore it’s weird and wrong” and “this type of sexuality is actually harmful to society.”

Anyways, at the end of the day I don’t think we really all disagree on the main points of the piece. Maybe I’m naive, but I think the vast majority of people do want the kind of genuine connection with another person that’s not based on a transactional view of sex. The majority of people does want social skills required
to form mutually satisfying relationships. Do even right-wing Christian men like to think that their wives have sex with them because they bring home the bacon or because they’re afraid that otherwise they’ll be abandoned? I admit I could be totally wrong on this one, but I certainly hope I’m not.

The friction comes into play when you argue that this social aspiration can co-exist with a decidedly less idealistic view of sex as a transaction, be it compensated with money or with marital bliss or whatever. The question of how these two approaches interact and spill into each other is something worth exploring.

Comment #522: ArielNYC  on  07/23  at  03:11 PM

473 was @ Ariel, not you, BrianX.  I’ve generally got no problem with you, actually, even when we disagree, which we don’t re non-monogamy.

Comment #523: helen w. h.  on  07/23  at  05:06 PM

And I thought you got it, Ariel, but then, nope.  To paraphrase:
“Just because some people think I’m being a sexist ass, and it gets work over time…oh, well maybe I worded that badly, but you still can’t read for shit.  Yeah, that’s it.  Great non-apology acknowlegdgement of your really poor commmunication skills there, bud.  So, I now know exactly how much to consider what you post for next time. 
Just so you can’t claim to be clueless about where did I say that -

I understand it’s a rather narrow point, I guess I could have made it a bit clearer.

So mea culpa. But I still find your reading comprension severely lacking If you can claim that I portayed PUAs as innocuous despite my explicit acknowledgement of the mysogyny in the community.

Comment #524: helen w. h.  on  07/23  at  05:37 PM

worse, not wrok; drat.

Comment #525: helen w. h.  on  07/23  at  05:38 PM

It should still be up to the worker, and no one else, whether to be involved in it or not.It should still be up to the worker, and no one else, whether to be involved in it or not.

No, because we tell people they can’t do stuff all the time for their own sake.  I think the biggest danger of criminalizing sex work is that one cannot regulate it on behalf of the workers, allow workers to join unions, etc.

Would you get any enjoyment out of going to the bar, a movie, dinner, playing mini golf, or whatever it is you do for fun - with someone who is only pretending to be your friend because you pay them?

Depends on the context?  I do get what you are saying, but this kind of argument seems to be saying that consensual sex work is impossible, rather than close to impossible in our current culture.

There are all kinds of jobs that require people to be my “friend” - or make some kind of pretense of emotionally caring for me in some way - even over a long period of time.  That they tend to be female dominated professions like teaching, nursing, etc is not a coincidence. Neither is it an accident that in the arguments surrounding the current push to cut teacher benefits, etc. there is an assumption that the care-taking is the major point of the job, that the job does not require much skill, and the care-taking is not actual labor but something that women just do.  Personally, I think most workers in female dominated professions - from sex work to nursing to teaching - would be better off if society did a better job of acknowledging that what they do requires skills beyond emotional work AND that the emotional work also requires skill and labor and recognition.

I don’t think that soothing men’s egos needs to be part of sex work; I think we make it an integral part of sex work for the same reason we act like kindergarten teachers live off of the adoration of their students rather than the salary they make.

Comment #526: jennygadget  on  07/23  at  05:43 PM

I’ve come over by way of Pharyngula, and I’m glad PZ linked here.

Thank you, Amanda Marcotte for a brilliant post. The buying/selling model works well to explain behaviors I’ve never been able to understand before. Also, thank you for mentioning the boyfriend/husband strategy. It always made me uncomfortable and I could never figure out why until now.
I think you may have been a little hard on Tracy Clark-Flory, though- the way I read that sentence was as a segue between the necessity of consent and the ways to bring the issues up for either refusal or consent, given that most of us in this society have a hard time talking about sexual desire especially once we leave the abstract and are talking personally. That’s not to say that I disagree that such pity exists: it does.

Thank you to missprism, bananacat, Cris, Alison, Ruby and the wonderfully named I, too, have an opinion! for not only explaining why it is better not to say more in refusal than “No” or “No, thank you,” but addressing the differences in how people understand the term polite. (For instance, I personally think “No, thank you” is very polite, “no” is neutral, and “fuck off” is impolite, but sometimes necessary.) Cris- “I’m an atheist but I’d be happy to point out the flaws in your theology” seems to work pretty well with missionaries, too.
Missprism should by all rights win at least one (1) internet for the biking analogy.
I, too, have an opinion!- thank you for the point about the approacher having what I shall henceforth call the burden of politeness.
Nutella- one of Emily’s coworkers said the milk one to her while we were dating and Emily’s response was that she wanted to try before she buys.
Snobographer- the tight wire of rejection. What is it with all of the great analogies?
Betoma- “Saying patriarchy treats women as if they’ve automaticall pre-consented to sex?  Fine.  Saying that because of this, women can’t meaningfully consent to sex?  Eurgh.  This discounts the experience of women who actually do desire and choose to have sex with men, and erases what should be a bright line between rape and consent.” QFT
Amanda Marcotte- when you say that women should be allowed to sell sex, is it for similar reasons as the pro argument for legalizing currently illegal drugs for pharmacies to sell? Is it to regulate the industry and make it safer for those who work in it? Would regulating sex as an industry reduce trafficking?
Luxaeturna- As a man, I want to say that isn’t an absolute difference by sex: if I had to hire someone, it would be a declaration that I was not appealing enough in and of myself for someone to be willing.
Djur- I agree. The standards of ‘professional’ is a harsh dual bind on women while being a negligible accomplishment for men.
Junk science- Projection observation FTW.

Thank you all. I know it is entirely unintended, but this thread makes a good Feminism 102 course. (Including derails and privileged whining)

Comment #527: DavidByars  on  07/23  at  10:23 PM

And where I think you go wrong is that the argument as to why transactional sex—ALL transactional sex—is morally troublesome isn’t really developed. You say it, but I’m not convinced. You say that this is like buying a woman, or depriving her of her humanity, but I don’t see it. And the reason I don’t see it is because while I CAN see the argument that the $600 protected sex act in Nevada is a form of buying a woman (I don’t really buy that, but I definitely get the argument), I don’t at all see why the husband who gets the blowjob after painting the house is buying his wife. And I don’t at all see why Aristotle Onassis was buying Jackie Kennedy either, really. So I just can’t grasp the idea that all transactional sex is immoral. It doesn’t fit with lived experience. And nor does it provide a real solution for all the inequities in the lives of sex workers.
Comment #438: Dilan Esper on 07/22 at 04:29 PM

We’re just saying that most sex is coded as transactional, and imposed transactional sex is a problem for the “seller” side.

And hey, you don’t “see it” because you’re not defined to be in the position of the seller in transactional sex.

Really, telling any male who makes an argument about prostitution “go suck some dick for $20” or “go get fucked in the ass” is pretty much reaffirming every stereotype about “homosexuality = bad” that there is. (It’s also juvenile and inappropriate and unedifying, like most snark is. But I’ve found that people who like to use snark don’t care about such things, because using snark makes people who can’t make good arguments FEEL smart, so I’ll stick to pointing out it is homophobia.) It’s basically the equivalent of calling women sluts—it’s implying that the worst possible thing that you can say about a man is that he might be gay or have sex with other men.
Comment #458: Dilan Esper on 07/22 at 05:35 PM

No, actually, it’s saying, go have sex you don’t like for money.  And see how honored that practice is.  It’s the opposite side of the coin “oh honey when you do that for me it’s beautiful”—“filthy cocksucker!”

Most men would say that sex with a woman who’s not terribly attractive is still not bad.  Most men don’t have sex they don’t like very often.  It’s an attempt to find something you don’t like sexually and say, hey, try doing that for money.  That’s the experience of women in the seller role in transactional relationships.

And lots of women are cast in the seller role in transactional sexual relationships.  And they have a majority of their sex be sex they don’t like.

You are again confusing cause with effect.

Comment #528: oldfeminist  on  07/23  at  11:49 PM

There’s plenty of breathing room between “men are entitled to have sex” and “men who want to have sex need to just masturbate and get over it”. (And same for women, of course.) The truth lies somewhere in between.
Comment #480: Dilan Esper on 07/22 at 06:48 PM

If a relationship is initially negotiated as monogamous, and not just sex-for-money, what is wrong with one person in a relationship asking the other person in the relationship who wants more sex than his/her partner to masturbate?  If they don’t like that, then they can renegotiate either for nonmonogamy or separation/divorce.

Relationships don’t always give you everything you want, especially the long-term kind.  People sometimes make a commitment and then end up on the short end with no intent to shortchange by the other party.  You don’t always just give up because you’re paying a dollar and only getting 50 cents back.  Maybe in a year or two you’ll only be able to “pay” a quarter or the other person will be able to “pay” two dollars.

Casting such relationships as innately transactional is poisonous.  Should a wife stop giving the blow jobs if her husband is disabled and can’t paint the house?

Comment #529: oldfeminist  on  07/24  at  12:15 AM

So whenever someone says “no, sex really isn’t different from X, or Y, or Z”, it runs against the felt intuitions of many Americans, and not only religious people….all sorts of traditional, patriarchal rules regarding sex that religion, government, and society imposed should be carefully reviewed and often opposed.

But that can create cognitive dissonance when it runs up against people’s felt, often socialized, intuitions that sex really is its own special category.
Comment #495: Dilan Esper on 07/22 at 08:25 PM

Maybe you would understand why sex is different for women in this society if you were a member of the sex class and you couldn’t escape being defined as the source or seller of sex. 

This makes it sound like women have this silly socialized idea that sex is holy and sacred.  In fact, pragmatically, if you are a woman and you “give it away,” you experience real-world consequences.

Which is again how transactionalizing sex poisons things.

Comment #530: oldfeminist  on  07/24  at  12:21 AM

Off tangent…  *wave*  I registered to ask about bananacat’s reference:

On this very blog, one health care worker said that they hire prostitutes to give oral sex to older male patients who can’t masturbate, to keep them calm and happy.

Would someone be kind enough to link to this?  I seem to be failing at searching for it.

Comment #531: Pteryxx  on  07/24  at  05:06 PM

This is one of those rare essays that will change the way I think and talk about this issue into the future.  Thanks, Amanda.

Comment #532: LKL  on  07/24  at  09:25 PM

Dammit, Amanda, when you’re on, you’re on.

<blockquote.A heterosexual man could perfectly well function as a sex worker providing sex on demand to anyone interested in paying him. He would probably not have sex with the people he actually desired: most sex workers don’t.</blockquote>

Jesurgislac got it in one, and exposed a rather nasty assumption Brian7 is holding and which is pretty common: that secretly, sex workers secretly enjoy all that sex and only sell to customers they find physically attractive. Apparently it never occurs to Brian7 that a sex worker might be a lesbian, or might simply put aside whatever preferences they have to provide sexual services. Which, you know, is something a straight man could do just as easily; I doubt it’s any more difficult for a man than a woman to croon “Oh, honey, I love it when you do that to me”. 

But Brian7 doesn’t want to believe that, because women are the sex class. The idea that a grown man might actually do something he finds sexually unlikeable, or even repulsive, in exchange for money is too horrible to contemplate.

Comment #533: mythago  on  07/24  at  10:12 PM

reverie #513 and #514

Except that lawn work and sex aren’t the same thing. Lawn work is not by nature a social relationship of mutual pleasure. The plants aren’t inside your body and you don’t have the possibility of emotional connection with the plants. The cultural narratives regarding gardening are not nearly as intimate or powerful as they are in the case of sexual activity.

Also - my post was not questioning that some people might have a genuine interest in selling; my point is that those people are indistinguishable from those who are being victimized, or at least it’s very hard to tell the difference.

I agree lawnwork is different from sex work.  My point though is I presume that those who choose to engage in their work do so voluntarily and do so based on their marketable skillsets and how they can profit.  I don’t believe that sex workers have an easy job and I think they should be fairly compensated for their services.  I just don’t patronizingly view those who choose to engage in sex work as victims.  My presumption is that those in the developed world who choose to engage in sex work do so voluntarily unless there is a reasonable basis

If there is no reasonable basis on believing a sex worker has been trafficked (ie doesn’t speak English, or the arrangement is via a pimp) there is nothing unethical in a man who desires a no strings sexual tryst in engaging a woman who is willing to provide those services.  Obviously fundamentalists and others would disagree with me.

Comment #534: Brian7  on  07/24  at  11:16 PM

Re Comment #518: rawwesthide

Also, a child can perform lawn work for an adult legally. There is no age of consent for lawn work.

True for lawn work but for most labor there is a minimum age requirement.  The presumption I was working on was someone engaging the services advertised on a sex worker who was over the age of consent.

You are not naked infront of your employer (i.e completely vulnerable) during lawn work.  This matters, because if shit happens you’d be less restrained from running off as opposed to being afraid of a bunch of strangers seeing you naked and your clothes are left in the room/ having to find a way to get home when naked. People seem to not realize how hard it must be to even get naked infront of a stranger in any situation.

Sex work is different from lawn work.  That is not a fact in dispute.  If sex work was legalized and regulated that would mitigate but not eliminate much of the unpleasantness of the work.

t’s a lot harder for an employer to directly force you do perform certain lawn acts, i.e there is no “cum on a girl’s face against her will” or “stick it in her ass and don’t take it out even if she begs” or “choke her” or “push her head down really hard on his cock”  equivalent in lawn work.  You do not have to deal with an employers genitals or bodily fluids, them touching you, etc in lawn work.

Legalization and regulation would reduce some of those issues.  Many escort ads have provisions that say “No Greek” (Anal).  If sex work was regulated and especially if sex workers were unionized those issues could be negotiated before hand.  I’m not naive enough to think that would satisfy the fundamentalists but I’m not one who cares about pandering to them.

It’s legal to do lawn work in public.

I’m not sure of the relevance of that.  Many things are illegal or legal on the basis of what is public.  Many things are ethical or unethical on the basis of what is public. 

It’s legal to have your child do lawn work for you, even to force your child to do lawn work for you.

So?

And, obviously, there is not a “rape culture” in relation to lawn work that says that lawn owners are entitled for you to perform lawn work ( by any means necessary, whether you like it or not ). A culture that breeds resentment and hatred of lawn workers because of said entitlement.  A culture that says that lawn owner’s dominance over lawn workers makes them who they are. That makes a world of difference.

I’m not sure how criminalizing or shaming those engage either those who choose to engage in sex work or those who patronize the services of sex workers reduces that.  My view (obviously a minority view here as well as a minority view on christian fundamentalist sites) is that people are free to engage in whatever occupations they want as long as they don’t hurt others and people can hire those people to engage in said services.

 

Comment #535: Brian7  on  07/24  at  11:33 PM

Re Comment #519: Jesurgislac


I wrote..

Heterosexual men generally aren’t sex workers because there isn’t a market demand for their services. So many men would be willing to provide said services for free

and you replied

A heterosexual man could perfectly well function as a sex worker providing sex on demand to anyone interested in paying him. He would probably not have sex with the people he actually desired: most sex workers don’t.

I realize most sex workers aren’t attracted to the majority of their customers.  That is not in dispute.  I just don’t think that there is that much demand for many heterosexual sex workers. There are not many women willing to pay them in excess of what their non sexual services fetch on the market.

Your presumptin{SIC] that “so many” heterosexual men would be willing to perform sexual acts with people they did not desire, without themselves experiencing any sexual pleasure, for free, is moronic to say the least.

Most men are repulsed by morbidly obese women.  However some men have a fetish and are attracted to morbidly obese women.  I would be willing to wager that if a woman place a W4M ad on craigslist saying she was 5’3 and weighed 320 pounds looking for meaningless sex with a guy that she would find a taker.  [A similarly morbidly obese man would not find many women willing to satisfy his carnal desires for free.] That would make it much more difficult for a male sex worker to make a living.  Even if he would be ok attempting to satisfy a woman he wasn’t attracted to,  its likely that another man would be willing to do the ‘work’ for free.

Seriously, how many straight men do you know who hang out at the local gay bars willing to provide sexual services to gay men for free?

None but there would be gay men willing to that for free.  That would make it difficult for a male sex worker to make a living that way.  There would likely be a gay guy willing to do the job for free.

 

 

Comment #536: Brian7  on  07/24  at  11:54 PM

RE Comment #520: rawwesthide

I won’t quote except to say that I agree with most of what you say.  Sex workers have an awful job with horrible risks.

I think that sex workers should be treated fairly and compensated for their services. 

I just think that demonizing either sex workers or those who engage in adults who freely choose sex work is wrong headed.

Comment #537: Brian7  on  07/24  at  11:57 PM

Comment #522: reverie

Brian, can you imagine paying someone to be your friend? Would you get any enjoyment out of going to the bar, a movie, dinner, playing mini golf, or whatever it is you do for fun - with someone who is only pretending to be your friend because you pay them? Imagine you get to choose every movie, every restaurant, every activity whatsoever. You often end up choosing things the other person hates, but they pretend to like sushi and stupid action flicks because you’re their boss. Wouldn’t that obviously be a hollow imitation of what true friendship is?

I agree its a poor substitute for the real thing.  That is not in dispute.

I think on most PUA discussion boards that men who hire prostitutes are viewed as sexaul losers. Most guys don’t seem very manly if they brag about women they had sex with that they had to pay.  Its not exactly a bragging point.

I just think though that if a man desires a no strings sexual encounter and a woman is willing to provide that for him for a price it is more ethical for that transaction to take place than not.  It is far more ethical for a sexaul liason to be negotiated before hand than for a there to be a married man to present himself as single and available and entice a woman to engage in carnal acts when she would only do that with a man who wanted a serious relationship with her.

Comment #538: Brian7  on  07/25  at  12:04 AM

Comment #534: mythago

esurgislac got it in one, and exposed a rather nasty assumption Brian7 is holding and which is pretty common: that secretly, sex workers secretly enjoy all that sex and only sell to customers they find physically attractive.

Please show me where I said that sex workers only service customers that they are attracted to?

Apparently it never occurs to Brian7 that a sex worker might be a lesbian, or might simply put aside whatever preferences they have to provide sexual services.

That possibility occured to me.  I highly doubt that a 25 year old female sex worker who has a BMI of 21 is attracted to a 57 year old man with a BMI of 37 with bad breath and no teeth.  I’m sure every sex worker has routinely engaged in sex acts with a partner they find repulsive.  I’ve never implied otherwise.

But Brian7 doesn’t want to believe that, because women are the sex class. The idea that a grown man might actually do something he finds sexually unlikeable, or even repulsive, in exchange for money is too horrible to contemplate.

Since female sex workers are paid on average much more than male workers, I don’t think that most men would be able to make more doing sex work than what they currently make. 

 

Comment #539: Brian7  on  07/25  at  12:25 AM

I don’t believe that sex workers have an easy job and I think they should be fairly compensated for their services.  I just don’t patronizingly view those who choose to engage in sex work as victims.  My presumption is that those in the developed world who choose to engage in sex work do so voluntarily unless there is a reasonable basis

If there is no reasonable basis on believing a sex worker has been trafficked (ie doesn’t speak English, or the arrangement is via a pimp) there is nothing unethical in a man who desires a no strings sexual tryst in engaging a woman who is willing to provide those services.  Obviously fundamentalists and others would disagree with me.
Comment #535: Brian7 on 07/24 at 11:16 PM

What about those who don’t choose to engage in sex work?  Because there are a lot of those around right now in the US and other Western countries.  They don’t have to be unable to speak English or have bruises from a pimp for them to be unwillingly in the sex trade.

Nice little rhetorical trick suggesting that women who don’t close their eyes and pretend that most sex workers are Happy Hookers are equivalent to anti-sex fundamentalists.  No one’s buying it.

I just think that demonizing either sex workers or those who engage in adults who freely choose sex work is wrong headed.

No one’s demonizing sex workers.  In fact it was suggested that criminal penalties attach only to the buyer and not the seller, a suggestion that was thought to be irrelevant.  I can assure you that a sex worker who isn’t going to get arrested for sex work would find that pretty relevant to her or his interests.

I just think though that if a man desires a no strings sexual encounter and a woman is willing to provide that for him for a price it is more ethical for that transaction to take place than not.  It is far more ethical for a sexaul liason to be negotiated before hand than for a there to be a married man to present himself as single and available and entice a woman to engage in carnal acts when she would only do that with a man who wanted a serious relationship with her.

Those are the only options?  Why?  You don’t think women want NSA sex?

Oh but yeah.  A lot of single women who would be okay with NSA sex with a single man think men who have sex outside a supposedly monogamous relationship are shits and don’t want to have sex with them.  They’re not upset because they can’t “score” a long term relationship.  They just don’t like fucking unethical men.

For you there’s nothing wrong with that transaction, paying a woman who would otherwise probably think the guy is a shit to have sex with him.  Also I guess nothing wrong with using money that could go to shared finances instead go to cheating on his wife.  Because if the wife really was okay with it it would be relatively easy for the woman in question to confirm it.  Swingers do it all the time.

So, Brian7, how long have you been married and how long have you been hiring sex workers?  You’re posting at the times most men use the internet to hide their activity from their wives, late night or very early morning.

Comment #540: oldfeminist  on  07/25  at  12:34 AM

“I just think though that if a man desires a no strings sexual encounter and a woman is willing to provide that for him for a price it is more ethical for that transaction to take place than not. “

Ethical how? As oldfeminist notes, if the man is single or in an open relationship, and willing to make himself sufficiently appealing that a woman wants to have no-strings sex with him, he always has that option - same as a woman does. If a man is married and his wife thinks they’re monogamous, then either he behaves ethically, or he has a variety of ways to cheat, one of which is to find a sex worker. 

All defenses of sex work from men always, invariably, come down to the man thinking he’s entitled to partner sex, whether it’s because he likes the power trip of being a customer who gets to buy what he wants, or because he’s a lying cheat who wants to screw women other than his wife.

Comment #541: Jesurgislac  on  07/25  at  07:58 AM

Brian7 @540: Jesurgislac already pointed out where you said that. You argued that straight men aren’t sex workers because there is no ‘market demand’ for their services - in complete contradiction to your earlier comment that men have no-strings-attached sex all the time, and that there is a market for gay male porn actors. Why do you have difficulty wrapping your head around the idea that heterosexual men could sell their services to other men? “Gay for pay” is not new in the porn industry; nor have you shown that, if the sexual services of male prostitutes were widely available, that women would not use them.

You don’t seem to understand that one of the reasons buyers pay a sex worker is not simply to get something wet and warm, but to get a particular kind of partner - a blonde, a domme, a tall thin brunette, and so on.

By the way, cute attempt to conflate ‘porn actors’ and ‘sex workers’ when pretending that women make more than men, btw.

Comment #542: mythago  on  07/25  at  10:10 AM

I see this thread will never die, so let me just add this.

We keep having two separate debates

1. What is the best way to eliminate the real-world evils of prostitution (abolish or regulate)
2. Is it inherently immoral to transact sex

Honestly, the more I read about regulating prostitution, the more I learn that it doesn’t really work. Apparently it feeds more demand and trafficking, though I still don’t really understand the feedback dynamics of it and it’s definitely something I’d like to read more about. So I remain somewhat agnostic regarding (1).

But as far as (2), I’m curious as to the objection to fulfilling one’s sexual fantasies.
Mythago in #543 points out that “one of the reasons buyers pay a sex worker is not simply to get something wet and warm, but to get a particular kind of partner - a blonde, a domme, a tall thin brunette, and so on.” Isn’t that an argument in favor for prostitution? Nobody is entiteld to have sex with Kim Kardashian. But if one’s fantasy is to have sex with Kim Kardashian (or more likely, a look alike), why is it wrong to pay someone for this fantasy? I don’t think that the argument of “if you pay someone who looks like Kim Kardashian to have sex with you, you won’t learn how to be the kind of man who can have sex with someone who looks like Kim Kardashian fore free” is applicable here. I think the response would be that wanting to have sex with an extremely attractive person is a form of privilege conditioned by social views of attractiveness, and that the enlightened approach should be to be happy with free enthusiastic sex with jane doe. Which as a norm is perfectly right. But what if you want to spice up the norm? I’m wondering what the argument against that is.

Comment #543: ArielNYC  on  07/25  at  11:17 AM

You don’t seem to understand that one of the reasons buyers pay a sex worker is not simply to get something wet and warm, but to get a particular kind of partner - a blonde, a domme, a tall thin brunette, and so on.

Comment #543: mythago

They really do it because they get off on lording over women http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/19/us-prostitution-survey-idUSTRE76I73F20110719

Comment #544: snobographer  on  07/25  at  02:55 PM

For you there’s nothing wrong with that transaction, paying a woman who would otherwise probably think the guy is a shit to have sex with him.
Comment #541: oldfeminist on 07/25 at 12:34 AM

It’s what women are for. The natural order of things, oldest profession and all that donchaknow.

Comment #545: snobographer  on  07/25  at  03:01 PM

Sex is fundamentally a social connection that brings mutual pleasure, and if you have to pay someone to fake pleasure, you’re doing it wrong.
Comment #522: reverie on 07/23 at 02:13 PM

I’ll do you one better. If you’re paying someone, you’re not having sex. At best you’re using a human being as a masturbatory device.

Comment #546: snobographer  on  07/25  at  04:38 PM

“But if one’s fantasy is to have sex with Kim Kardashian (or more likely, a look alike), why is it wrong to pay someone for this fantasy? ... I’m wondering what the argument against that is.”

hat no one ought to think themselves entitled to have sex with someone who isn’t interested.T

I believe this has been said to you multiple times, Ariel: you just don’t seem to get the idea that partner sex is not something people are entitled to.

Comment #547: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  04:31 AM

@Jesurgislac

You don’t address the argument at all.  If Kim Kardashian wants to take my money in exchange for sex, and Kim Kardashian is an adult free of coercion, then what difference does it make what you or
I think about entitlement? It’s a categorty error. You confuse “owed” with “allowed”

You sneer that no one is “entitled to have sex with someone who isn’t interested.” Which would be a great rejoinder to “I think Kim Kardashian is hot, and I’m a man, therefore the world owes me sex with Kim Kardashian even if she’s not interested.” If you want to argue that it’s metaphyiscally impossible to give consent based on financial motives,  and that alone is sufficient to deny a free agent the liberty to engage in sex work, you’re welcome to flesh that argument out. But you choose instead to completely ignore the stipulation that Kim Kardashian is agreeing for a monetary exchange. So let me turn the tables. Why are YOU entitled to deploy the coercive apparatus of the state to deny Kim Kardasian the right to control her body and exchange money for sex?

Look, obviously in rea life Kim Kardashian is not going to do tricks on street corners for $10 and nobody will traffick her to some helllacious brothel in Cambodia and there are tons of moral and social ills involved with real-world sex work that I abstracted away. But the point of this exercise was to understand the underlying moral objection. 

“you just don’t seem to get the idea that partner sex is not something people are entitled to.”
Isn’t that the argument that Rick Santorum makes about gay sex? That nobody is entiteld to have consenting adult sex behind closed doors? Merely stating that you’re not entitled to something is not an argument as to why you’re not allowed to do it, nor does it define the conditions under which the activity would be legitimate.

Comment #548: ArielNYC  on  07/26  at  11:41 AM

The problem isn’t a person wanting to sell sex, ArielNYC.

It is with the person wanting to buy sex.  To buy compliance that they cannot earn.  To buy the right to completely disregard the sexuality and sexual desires of their “partner.”  No one is entitled to that.  And considering the fact that so many women have survived prior sexual trauma, including a disproportionate number of women in sex work, by buying sex, the purchaser is taking a significant, non-zero risk that s/he is harming someone who needs to have the utmost control over sex and how it happens in order to feel safe and not be traumatized.  That is just a shitty thing to do.

BTW, my other comment, upthread, was directed to Dilan.  But your reply was entirely beside the point.  Amanda is discussing the framework in which we discuss sexuality, and whether the transactional framework is disrespectful to women.  And so you want to talk about prostitution, which is somewhat topical, but you completely fail to discuss the bigger issue.  I don’t know why, maybe prostitution is a turn-on for you (it seems to be).

This is just such a blinding example of unaware privilege.  We want to talk about how women and their sexuality is erased and disrespected through the discussion of sex as a transaction, and you focus everything on justifying men’s “right” to buy women.  Because clearly, that is the most important thing to discuss here.  Ugh.

Comment #549: Ismone  on  07/26  at  12:38 PM

“If Kim Kardashian wants to take my money in exchange for sex, and Kim Kardashian is an adult free of coercion, then what difference does it make what you or I think about entitlement?”

Ariel, it’s just possible you are a sweet naive little rich thing with no notion about how when someone who has more power insists on buying, the ability of the powerless to refuse to sell is meager.

But I suspect you just don’t want to understand. Class and money are two things Americans often just don’t want to talk about.

“If you want to argue that it’s metaphyiscally impossible to give consent based on financial motives”

Metaphysical? Nope. Power expressed in financial terms isn’t metaphysical, and only a naive little rich kid would think it was.

“Why are YOU entitled to deploy the coercive apparatus of the state to deny Kim Kardasian the right to control her body and exchange money for sex? “

Why are you trying to pretend that the real life issues of people with money and power buying access to other people’s bodies just don’t exist?

“But the point of this exercise was to understand the underlying moral objection.  “

You’re not going to do that by just “abstracting away” the underlying moral objection, are you now, sweetiepie? Assuming, that is, that you WANT to understand the moral objection, since what you actually seem to want to do is “abstract it away” so that you can pretend there’s nothing really wrong with it.

“isn’t that the argument that Rick Santorum makes about gay sex?”

No.

Comment #550: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  12:52 PM

“it’s just possible you are a sweet naive little rich thing with no notion about how when someone who has more power insists on buying, the ability of the powerless to refuse to sell is meager.”

““you actually seem to want to do is “abstract it away” so that you can pretend there’s nothing really wrong with it.”
It’s just possible that you’re an entiteld little thing with no notion about what real-life sex workers actually want. Read the critique of the Swedish Model at Feministe. You want to speak as the mouthpiece of sex workers, and you’re not. At the very least admit that it’s not there perfectly non-naive people in this world who know a thing or two about the real problems of prostitution and they don’t necessarily agree with you about how to amelioriate that. Your entitlement is frankly quite breathtaking.

“Why are you trying to pretend that the real life issues of people with money and power buying access to other people’s bodies just don’t exist?”

You’re either obtuse or you don’t want to argue in good faith. I specifially made a distinction between the ills of real-world sex work vs the abtract principles involved. So yes, economically disenfanchised women are a real-world problem. Saying that there are separate moral objections to sex work other than these real-world problems DOESN’T MEAN I DENY THESE PROBLEMS. For instance, if you’re a religious Christian, your view of sex will be informed in a very specific way separate from the ecnomic opportunities afforded to poor women. That Christian person can object to sex work as exploitation of women as well as view sex as strictly bounded within marriage. These are two SEPARATE issues. Saying that religious Christians reject extramarital sex doesn’t erase the real-world problems of sex work. 

Look, I understand where you’re coming from. You want to scream DON’T YOU FEEL BAD FOR CAMBODIAN SEX SLAVES?! from the rooftops until you’re blue in the face. You want to argue the trivial propsition that coercing people into sex is inherently wrong. Fortunately for you, it’s a very easy debate. Unfortunately for you, this is not the debate we’re having.

Snark aside, I think the argument you want to make is “given the world as it is, with all its inequities, real consent to commercialized sex is impossible.” The weankess of this argument is that its erases the experiences and expressed wishes of real-world sex workers, who by no means speak with one voice (see again that Feministe piece). You want to gloss over that and luxuriate in your self-righteousness, but alas life is more complicated that.

Even worse, you would need to agree with radical feminists like Twisty in saying that ANY CONSENT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Kim Kardashian can’t consent to the most mundnae sexual encounter because of the patriarchal superstructure of any social interaction. In other words, if any given woman can’t give true consent for paid sex, she can’t give true consent PERIOD.

Comment #551: ArielNYC  on  07/26  at  01:34 PM

“It’s just possible that you’re an entiteld little thing with no notion about what real-life sex workers actually want.”

Entitled. Your rich-kid school obviously figured you could hire someone to spell for you.

Ariel, sweetie, that’s what we call moving the goal post.

You want to know what’s the moral case against people thinking they’re entitled to buy sex. I explain it to you. You get all rich-kid angry and start trying to claim that what you REALLY care about is the working conditions of the sex workers. Now it’s true that’s a very important issue. But it’s not the topic of discussion here.

“I specifially made a distinction between the ills of real-world sex work vs the abtract principles involved.”

Specifically. Tsk.

I specifically pointed out to you that trying to “abstract away” the moral problem of people with money and power buying access to the bodies of people who need the money and have little power, ensures you won’t be talking about the abstract principles involved - you’ll be ignoring them.

“Look, I understand where you’re coming from.”

No, sweetie, you really, really don’t.

“Kim Kardashian can’t consent to the most mundnae sexual encounter because of the patriarchal superstructure of any social interaction.”

Mundane. Tsk tsk. You’re still trying to move the goalposts. We’re discussing the ethics of men who think they’re entitled to buy.

Kim Kardashian, whoever she may be, can consent to sex with whomever she pleases. But the man who wants to buy sex from a person who needs the money and has less power than the man doing the buying, is not concerned with ethical consent: he’s concerned with getting what he thinks he’s entitled to.

Comment #552: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  02:22 PM

@Ismone

I really want to address your specific points, and yet I keep having to go meta. For some reason there’s this huge intellectual objection here to discussing two hypothetical free agents engaging in paid sex as seprate from the real world. It seems to be rooted in the idea that it’s impossible to discuss moral issues in the abstract. And yet we surely can. Of cours that discussing abstractions doesn’t capture the complexity of the real world. But it does help us disaggregate the different moral dimensions involved. Your absolute refusal to even entertain a situation where anybdy would give true consent to paid sex is telling. Like other commenters here you don’t want to have this argument.
You categoritcally refuse to accept that you seek to proscribe the liberty of sex workers, because you assume as a given that they’re all slaves anyways.

You want to debate sex work as a complex and hugely problematic phenomenon with lots of different agents and regulary frameworks and cofounding variables and incomplete data. It’s a worthy discussion,  but its a whole separate question of the moral principles of sex work. If you think paid sex is inherently immoral no matter what becuase, for the sake of argument, God says so, then related issues like sex trafficking and drug dependency are at best marginal to your bedrock principle.

“To buy the right to completely disregard the sexuality and sexual desires of their “partner.””
You’re still begging the question. Why is it inherently immoral for someone to provide a paid service that pleasess another party but not themselves? Sexual trauma is terrible, but has nothing to do with whether or not a john pleases a sex worker (as opposed to abuse. I think we can agree that failture to please is not morally equivalent to abuse, just like the masseuse that rubs my back and who doesn’t get a rub in return).
Besides, you just assume that. Did I say “I want to have spiteful sex with Kim Kardashian and deny her any pleasure?” It’s probably true in many if not most cases that johns aren’t concenred whether a sex worker got off or not. But can you make reasoned argument that disregarding a sex worker’s feeling is an inherent part of the action? Again, I’m not arguing about the statistics here, and I’m not here to portray johns and down-on-their-luck men with hearts of gold. But if you want to argue that paid sex has inherent and inalienable properties that at the very need to be proven. Saying that lots of bad people abuse sex workers doesn’t illuminate the nature of sex work itself. Mobsters exploit the banking system to launder money. And yet we don’t abolish banking.  Maybe in some banks 70% of money is laundered. Is that an argument that banking itself is immoral?

“This is just such a blinding example of unaware privilege.  We want to talk about how women and their sexuality is erased and disrespected through the discussion of sex as a transaction, and you focus everything on justifying men’s “right” to buy women. “

You have no problem erasing the expressed wishes of real-world sex workers who don’t agree with you. You have no problem disrespecting sex workers by saying that none of them are free agents and therefore you’re entitled to override their decisions. You have no qualm with and saying that we shouldn’t believe sex workers when they say they don’t want any criminalization of the sex trade (see the Feministe piece on the Swedish Model). Funny that.

Comment #553: ArielNYC  on  07/26  at  02:23 PM

You can mock my typos all you want. One day you’ll publish a tome erasing the voices of real-world sex workers, and I’m sure you’ll do a fine job dotting all the i’s and crossing all the t’s. And however much you don’t want to believe it, plenty of people in good faith, both inside and outside the sex industry, disagree with you. You can sneer and psychoanalyze me to your heart’s content. Doesn’t change a fig.

“But the man who wants to buy sex from a person who needs the money and has less power than the man doing the buying, is not concerned with ethical consent”

“Needs” is a very nebulous term. Maybe the woman needs to feed her family. Maybe her need is a Birkin bag. No, I’m not joking:
http://gawker.com/279893/are-birkin-bags-the-root-of-evil

Now, to you and me, a birkin bag is not worth paid sex work. And I’m sure you could analyze this consumer mentality till the cows come home. But in a liberal society, we don’t automatically prohibitt actions just because we deem them profoundly daft. We don’t ban poor people from buying luxury goods. We’re certainly hysterical about it, but I don’th think anyone is so paternalistic that we would mandate that only people making 6 figures would be allowed to buy a Birkin bag. The point of it all is that you want to limit people’s freedom, including sex workers. You just don’t want to admit that because it complicates your moral righteousness. It’s a lot easier to hate on abusive johns than to act paternalistic to women who want you to butt out.

Comment #554: ArielNYC  on  07/26  at  02:45 PM

“Sex workers” don’t actually want to fuck you, Ariel, et al. If they did, you wouldn’t have to pay them to fuck you.

Comment #555: snobographer  on  07/26  at  02:57 PM

Ariel, I apologise for mocking your typos. Seriously.

“One day you’ll publish a tome erasing the voices of real-world sex workers”

I think you’re suffering from a comprehension problem. Initially I wrote a “reading comprehension problem” but it’s clearly wider than that.

You are not interested in the voices of real-world sex workers. You admit it yourself: you want to erase all of the issues raised by real-world sex workers, and all of the abstract moral problems raised by men who think they can buy access to other people’s bodies for sexual satisfaction, in order to discuss your pornified conception of sex work.

“And however much you don’t want to believe it, plenty of people in good faith, both inside and outside the sex industry, disagree with you.”

I’m not sure if you can understand what “people in good faith” look like. You’ve shown remarkably little good faith in your arguments.

“The point of it all is that you want to limit people’s freedom”

No, honeycakes. No, rich kid with the comprehension problem. Pointing out the ethical difficulties with men who have money and power using that to buy access to poorer and less powerful people’s bodies, may eventually limit the freedom of the men with power and money to do what they wish with the bodies of the poorer and less powerful. But not directly and not immediately. It is a question of name and shame. You want to try to distort the issue, to erase the experiences of sex workers (who, as snobographer succinctly points out, do not actually want to fuck you) and try to make it all about an issue of a man’s “freedom” to put down his money and buy sex, and then claim that if we’re against his claimed entitlement to buy we’re against fffffffffffffffreeeeeedom, as if you were William Wallace on the rack in Braveheart and we were all tormenting you.

We are discussing why men think they have the right to buy. You don’t want to talk about that. Don’t try to move goalposts and pretend we’re not interested in discussing abstract moral issues or erasing the voices of sex workers. You’re not interested in discussing abstract moral issues. You’re not interested in the real world experience of sex workers. You just want to justify to yourself why it’s perfectly OK and normal for a man to buy sex.

Comment #556: Jesurgislac  on  07/26  at  03:26 PM

ArielNYC,

The reason it is offensive to discuss abstract issues is because this thread is about the real-world implications of all women’s sexual agency being dismissed because all sexuality is discussed transactionally.

But instead of dealing with that issue, which is huge, and has caused harm to FEMALE-BODIED PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD, you want to talk about how it is you think “abstractly” that it can be okay for men to purchase sex from women because otherwise we are denying NON-COERCED sex workers agency.

In short, instead of talking about the real harm—sex being transactionalized—you want to justify the buyer’s access to bodies—that is, we said “framing sex as transactional is wrong and degrading” and you instead want to talk about to what extent it is okay for you to transact for sex.

Get it?  You are falling headfirst into the trap, which is that the ONLY discussion of women’s sexuality you want to have is WHEN MEN BUY SEX FROM WOMEN.  I mean, WTH, you aren’t being meta, you are focusing in on a minor fucking point that is emblematic of the whole problem.  And it is emblematic only because you are so fucking clueless or disingenuous, take your pick.

I will not discuss prostitution with you, because you keep misrepresenting my arguments, and because the point of what I am saying to you, on a meta level, is that you are missing the entire point of this post.

Comment #557: Ismone  on  07/26  at  04:42 PM

Jesurgislac

“We are discussing why men think they have the right to buy. You don’t want to talk about that. Don’t try to move goalposts and pretend we’re not interested in discussing abstract moral issues or erasing the voices of sex workers. You’re not interested in discussing abstract moral issues. You’re not interested in the real world experience of sex workers. You just want to justify to yourself why it’s perfectly OK and normal for a man to buy sex.”

This.  Absolutely this.  This is what ArielNYC is refusing to talk about.  He wants to go abstract when we talk about real women being harmed, but specific when he finds some sex workers who agree with him.  He wants to go abstract when he can abstract away the harms, but concrete when he wants to tar us with some failed decriminalization scheme that we aren’t even advocating.

And BTW, haven’t seen you around these parts in a while (maybe I’m the one that’s been gone) good to hear what you have to say.  smile

Comment #558: Ismone  on  07/26  at  04:45 PM

Wow, lots to digest.

@ Jesurgislac & IsMone

When I say that people in good faith, including sex workers, don’t agree with you, that’s not something I’m pulling out of my ass. I actually referenced an example from another feminist website. If you’re a serious person as opposed to a troll or a 10 year old, you would grapple with that. You may decide that it affects your way of thinking. You may dismiss it on account of whatever. But snark alone doesn’t make for an argument. 

Frankly I wasn’t going to wade into the sex work debate, but I was amazed by your insistence to completely erase women from the equation and make it all about what guys are entitled to, as if the argument is whether men have a right to coerce women into sex. When you make it all about men, YOU DENY WOMEN ANY AGENCY. And true, many women in the sex industry are coerced and it’s a real problem that needs to solved and ameliorated. But you want to clump all sex workers into one tragic monolith. When women in the industry are saying stop, you’re not helping me, you’re not speaking for me, I’m a free agent, leave us be, you just erase their experiences because it doesn’t fit your narrative. And when you assume that all sex work is coerced, you get to avoid the tricky issue of limiting the freedom and economic power of women who don’t conform to your expectations. 

So, to sum up:
1.You don’t listen to sex workers who disagree with you.
2. You don’t explain why women in the Patriarchy are free agents when it comes to unpaid sex but not in the context of paid sex
3. You categorically refuse to admit that you reject the right of sex workers to control their own bodies in the name of a higher principle.

Which is weird. If you think all paid sex work slavery, then just say that. We don’t allow individuals to sell their freedom. We see freedom as an inalienable right. If you believe that no sex worker can express her true wishes and agency, that her words, when not convenient to you, must be discounted on account of emotional damage or false consciousness, and the woman should be treated like child who can’t make decisions for herself, say it. If you believe that in principle sex work is legit but in practice it is abused by coercion and therefore not legit, say it. Own up your beliefs.

“We are discussing why men think they have the right to buy. You don’t want to talk about that.”
Why do men think they have the right to have sex? Just because they can find a bedroom and consenting a partner doesn’t mean they’re entitled to have sex, right?. Seriously. Just ask Rick Santorum, he’ll tell you. Oh, what’s that? That’s not the issue? The consent is the issue? Then let’s talk consent. Feel free to address points 1-3.

You just don’t want definitional clarity. What does it mean to buy? to exchange money for uncoerced sex? to rape? What does it mean to sell? to provide a consensual sexual service? to be enslaved by a pimp? What is coercion? force? threat? economic exigency? legal discrimination? the mere existence of the patriarchy regardless of individual circumstance? Merely being a woman and thus oppressed?

I can’t give you an answer if you don’t tell me what it is you’re arguing for or against. It makes no sense to argue whether men have a right to buy a sex without asking if women have a right to sell and whether women can give consent to paid sex (heteronormativity assumed for simplicity’s sake).  If women have the right to sell uncoerced sex, men have the right to buy uncoerced sex. If not, then not.  Whether we decide by matter of law that the real-world abuse is such that we must limit these rights is a separate issue. It’s prefectly ok to say that people have the right for paid sex, but the social imperative to minimze abuse is an overriding right.

I try to abstract away the real world ills of sex work so I can understand if you guys object just to these real world ills or the very essence of sex work, and you protest that I’m not dealing with the real world ills.  To draw an analogy, I’m trying to understand whether you oppose abortion but are ok with contraceptives, or whether you oppose all forms of reproductive rights and think that life ends at birth. I ask about condoms, and you talk about how sacred the life of a baby is. It’s absurd.

“Don’t try to move goalposts and pretend we’re not interested in discussing abstract moral issues or erasing the voices of sex workers.”
But you don’t. You say nothing about those sex workers other than complaining they don’t agree with you, and you don’t deal with any abstract issues at all. You think that “men are not entitled to have paid sex!” is this amazing swiss knife of reason and a dispositive statement about sex and sex work.
You complain that I don’t address real world problems, which besides being incorrect (how many times do I need to repeat that real-world sex work is rife with abuse and coercion?), is the opposite of treating the issue as an abstract moral question.

Comment #559: ArielNYC  on  07/26  at  09:13 PM

#123 Amanda—

I’m afraid I do have a problem with this, because think of all the money and time that’s going into social survival and fulfilling a bunch of primal human needs instead of what really makes humanity special and worth it—art, music, adventure, science, etc.

In fact, human nature is such that you too often can’t get these things unless you fulfill the “loveability” thing first. Some people never get to the top of this permutation of the Maslow pyramid, because working on themselves and their loveability eats up all their resources. This has not made me feel anything but despair, for myself and for other people.

Comment #560: Lucy Montrose  on  07/26  at  11:14 PM

#123 continued; as well as #130 Kit-Kat

Ummm… “men trying as hard as women”, in light of what Amanda said earlier in that same paragraph, sounds a great deal more involved than just “combing their hair, keeping clean, looking after their health and caring about their partners”.
Kit-Kat: thanks for spelling out that distinction. All too often we hear “I like a woman who takes care of herself”, and then get the frowns of disappointment and disapproval when we merely show up with clean hair and clean clothes, instead of looking like we stepped out of a glamour shot.

Clearly the harder one “tries”, the better, right? How many people find plastic surgery and thinness more “loveable” than just keeping clean? All that beautification costs a lot of money, which means that the privileged are inherently favored, too.

If relating to other people is as such that we must prop up a system that rewards the wealthy and the conformist, as most able to purchase charm and loveability, than that makes me even more jaundiced about what it takes to live as a social being. Something may be “the way things are”, but I draw the line at being expected to join the crowd in carrying on the way things are.

Comment #561: Lucy Montrose  on  07/26  at  11:14 PM

#163—actually, I saw that as a flaw on the part of the makeup artists. They failed to make Emma Watson look like a 40-year-old woman… whereas even epilogue-Ginny (head-turning beautiful when young) either was skillfully made up to look her new age (still beautiful though clearly older), or was played by a different actress. If anybody “let themselves go” there, it was Hermione’s makeup squad.

Comment #562: Lucy Montrose  on  07/26  at  11:16 PM

Ariel:

Do you think that sex workers, for the most part, want to fuck the people who they are payed to fuck? Do you think the frequency and intensity of that desire to not fuck those people matters? Do you think that the fact that they don’t want to fuck that person but will do it for money matters? Is it harmful to them? How does this reality affect their agency? Does it matter to the person who is paying them (iow, most people recognize that when we do particularly harmful things to others—abusive, traumatic, triggering, violent—that our own humanity is often harmed in the process)? On an ethical basis? On a humanistic basis? On a “reinforcing patriarchal and transactional frames” basis? Do you think that sex workers distinguish between what they do and sex? Why? Do you think that women arrive within the field of sex work because of free agency? Do you think the frame Amanda describes as transactional sex is real? What do you suppose it means? What aspects of transactional sex, and how we use that as a way to understand sex in our general culture do you imagine might contribute to that lack of agency for sex workers, culturally if not on a woman by woman basis? You have begun this conversation in the wrong place. The fact that you have begun in where you have is preventing you from seeing and understanding what oldfeminist, snobographer, Ismone, Jesurgislac, and others are saying. You literally can’t get here from where you are. You have to go back to the beginning and start by answering some of these questions. And consider the possibility that you really aren’t getting what we’re trying to say. I’d be curious about what you imagine was argued on another feminist website regarding sex workers and transactional sex. Perhaps you could link to it or explain it. It may be that what you read is a very tangential issue to all of this or far more nuanced than you realize. You have a blind spot that’s really really big. And if you could imagine the truth of that for a moment, what questions might you ask to clarify what we’re saying.

Your list here:

1.You don’t listen to sex workers who disagree with you.
2. You don’t explain why women in the Patriarchy are free agents when it comes to unpaid sex but not in the context of paid sex
3. You categorically refuse to admit that you reject the right of sex workers to control their own bodies in the name of a higher principle.

is deceptive. I don’t see where anyone is arguing against the rights of sex workers. Sex workers are perfectly within their rights to sell their service. No one is arguing against that. We are saying that such acts aren’t really sex. They are transactional and harmful to many of the women who enter into sex work through highly coercive and abusive avenues.
I don’t understand what you mean by #2. You’ll need to explain that a bit more.
#3 is just false. Sex workers are totally supported by every commenter here who has engaged with you. No one is arguing that they shouldn’t have control over their own bodies. We aren’t seeking to control them. We are describing the ethical implications of those who seek to purchase them for their services.

Comment #563: tookish  on  07/26  at  11:27 PM

#562: come to think of it, I think a better way of saying it would be “earn charm and loveability”.

Comment #564: Lucy Montrose  on  07/26  at  11:35 PM

Re: Comment #541: oldfeminist

What about those who don’t choose to engage in sex work?

They should cease engaging in sex work and seek out the help from the organizations that help them stop from that.  Nothing I or others here have written have suggested that sex workers should be forced into that work.

Nice little rhetorical trick suggesting that women who don’t close their eyes and pretend that most sex workers are Happy Hookers are equivalent to anti-sex fundamentalists.  No one’s buying it.

Where did I suggest that most sex workers are “Happy Hookers”?  I’ve never described sex work as appealing.  I imagine a minority of sex workers enjoy their work,  some feel trapped into it and hate it, and the majority probably dislike it but find that is pays more that whatever marketable skills they have and freely choose to engage in it. I don’t believe life is like “Pretty Woman”.

No one’s demonizing sex workers.  In fact it was suggested that criminal penalties attach only to the buyer and not the seller, a suggestion that was thought to be irrelevant.  I can assure you that a sex worker who isn’t going to get arrested for sex work would find that pretty relevant to her or his interests.

Assigning criminal penalties to the customers of sex workers harms the workers.  It increases the liklihood of abuse and even in the ‘best case’ scenario would make it more difficult for a sex worker to earn a living. If someone is dissuaded from relpying to an advertisment from a sexworker harms the sex worker who would otherwise profit.  Suggesting otherwise is about as intellectually honest as those opposed to abortion who say that criminal penalties should only be placed against abortionists and not against women who need abortion services and then protest that they are not anti woman or their advocacy of sanctions against abortion providers harms women. 

Those are the only options?  Why?  You don’t think women want NSA sex?

I think that a M4W ad looking for an anonymous hookup would generate far fewer interested replies than a W4M ad or a M4M ad.  Do you dispute that?  I think that men are much more wired for anonymous sexual encounters.  For anyone who has lived near gay bars will attest to you will far more likely find men there engaged in hookups in alleys or parks behind those bars than women.  A gay man can put the GRINDR app on his phone and find a hookup.  That kind of thing isn’t as appealing to gay women. Straight men looking for hookups are wired quite similarly as gay men.  With some exceptions straight women don’t want that kind of hookup and demand compensation for those acts.  There is a reason that prostitution has existed in every society and in every era.  I think that steps can and be taken to make life better for sex workers that don’t include criminalizing the activity.

Oh but yeah.  A lot of single women who would be okay with NSA sex with a single man think men who have sex outside a supposedly monogamous relationship are shits and don’t want to have sex with them.  They’re not upset because they can’t “score” a long term relationship.  They just don’t like fucking unethical men.

That’s why earlier I stated that David Vitter and Eliot Spitzer were sexually more ethical than Bill Clinton or Newt Gingrich.  It certainly wasn’t in praise of Vitter and Spitzer.  Its just that legality aside I think that approach is generally preferable. It has much fewer misconceptions.

For you there’s nothing wrong with that transaction, paying a woman who would otherwise probably think the guy is a shit to have sex with him.

I’m sure there are lawyers who view some of their clients as shits.  I’m sure there are physicians and nurses who view some of their patients as shits.  I’m sure there are people working at McDonalds who view their bosses and customers as shits. I’m sure there are hairdressers who find their customers shits Doing a job with shits is part of life.  Sex workers are not exempt from that reality.  A client or customer of any service may be viewed as a shit and should be aware that the business partner wouldn’t have anything to them if they weren’t being paid.

QUOTE[Also I guess nothing wrong with using money that could go to shared finances instead go to cheating on his wife.  Because if the wife really was okay with it it would be relatively easy for the woman in question to confirm it.  Swingers do it all the time.

I agree that individuals in joint relationships shouldn’t misuse joint funds.  Its highly unethical but certainly not just related to procuring sex workers (I know you never suggested it was)

 

Comment #565: Brian7  on  07/26  at  11:53 PM

Re Comment #541: oldfeminist

So, Brian7, how long have you been married and how long have you been hiring sex workers?  You’re posting at the times most men use the internet to hide their activity from their wives, late night or very early morning. ]

Ah the ‘when did you stop beating your wife question’.

I don’t go to sex workers.  Unless you want to count the time I go to strip clubs. That’s maybe a once every 18 months thing.  Three of the times was with my wife, one was part of a lesbian bachelorette party (one of her best friends is a lesbian).  I can’t post on internet message boards when I’m at work and had a full weekend and had to help a friend move.  Moreover I hardly think that defending commercial sex transactions on Pandagon would be a method or pursuing something illicit.  My wife would be mind numbingly board with most of my online activities.

I’m also in favor of the decriminalization of marijuana though I haven’t toked in over 5 years as well as the decriminalization of cocaine and I’ve never had cocaine.  I’m also in favor of gay marriage but have no desire to marry a man.  I also support the right of Muslims to build a mosque wherever its fine to have a church though I would never go into the mosque.  Just because someone believes that an action should be legal does not mean that the individual engages in those acts.  The people on this board are of a significantly higher intelligence than most internet boards and I presumed that went without saying.

Comment #566: Brian7  on  07/26  at  11:57 PM

@tookish

“I don’t see where anyone is arguing against the rights of sex workers. Sex workers are perfectly within their rights to sell their service.”
Have you been paying attention at all? This has been the crux of the whole debate. Many commenters here believe that consent for sex work is inherently impossible. And if you don’t think that sex work can be consensual, then you don’t believe that people have a right to engage in sex work. But since you do believe that sex workers have a right to sell sex, then maybe you can clarify to me if buyers
have a right to buy the sexual services being sold, because I’ve been hearing countless times now how the idea that you can pay for sexual services being piched to you is a form of male entitlement and that nobody is entitled to paid sex.

“We are saying that such acts aren’t really sex.”
I think I missed that part in the debate. Maybe you think that way, but I don’t recall anyone else pushing this argument. Either way, I think sex workers would say that they do sell sex, rather than your idiosyncratic definition of whatever it is they provide.

” They are transactional and harmful to many of the women who enter into sex work through highly coercive and abusive avenues.”
Coercive sex is bad, no argument there.
“I don’t understand what you mean by #2. You’ll need to explain that a bit more.”
I was referring to the radical feminist critique of sexual consent as proffered by Twisty and which Amanda referenced. Basically, my question was how we define sexual consent, whether this consent can be granted under our patriarchal system, and if so, why this consent, predicated upon the free agency of women, is impossible in the context of sex work.

“#3 is just false. Sex workers are totally supported by every commenter here who has engaged with you. No one is arguing that they shouldn’t have control over their own bodies. We aren’t seeking to control them.”
Any form of criminalization of sex workers or their trade limits control over their bodies. If they want to sell sex and the law puts restrictions on them, that’s a form of control. And perhaps a totally legit and necessary form of control. But to deny the implications is disingenuous. And again, if you don’t believe sex workers have true agency, then your form of support - abolishing or restricting sex work -
is not necessarily one sex workers would welcome. That’s the whole point of the Feministe piece I referenced:
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/07/23/on-the-swedish-model/

“We are describing the ethical implications of those who seek to purchase them for their services.”
And I’m glad to debate that. My goal was trying to isolate the basic attributes of paid sex from all the real-world epiphenomena associated with it. There’s no point arguing about the ethics of having sex with a cambodian sex slave. I was trying to construct a plausible scenario that would involve paid sex that would be morally acceptable. The response was to raise hell that I wasn’t addressing Cambodian sex slaves. Or that I wasn’t acknowledging the real-world injustices that taint the consent of sex workers. But that’s the whole question. Either consent is possible or it isn’t. If it is, then whether a sex worker has the most intimate and mind-blowing sex or she thinks about watering her flower garden is not determinative. We can try to mind read the collective psyche of sex workers, but this is futile exercise. Is it ok for Japanese women to sell sex to buy luxury goods? I’m not a position to say that their calculus is wrong, however ridiculous I find the allure of the Birkin bag.

I think there’s great umbrage on this board that johns would inflict themselves on consenting sex workers. There’s no argument that a sizable number of johns are abusive, and debating the ethics of raping a sex worker is not something I’m going to engage in. But as far as non-abusive johns, what do you want them to feel? l sense that you expect them to feel despicable for making a sex worker suffer them, and feel guilty and pathetic and what not. You’ll need to ask a john about that, but I’d guess that most people don’t see themselves as a pshychic punishment. So, no, I don’t expect that the average john will be thinking about how he’s causing great harm and suffering to the sex worker. Unless he’s an abusive piece of shit.

Lastly, does paid sex corrupt sexual norms? I think sexual norms have vascillated quite radically thru the ages, and yet sex work has always been a constant no? I’m just not sure how you can demonstrate that what happens in the paid sex realm shapes the mainstream mores of society, but I would be curious to read your analysis.

Comment #567: ArielNYC  on  07/27  at  03:00 AM

Ariel,

It is not erasing sex workers at all to focus wholly on whether the purchaser’s actions are moral or not.  It is erasing *ALL WOMEN’S* sexual agency, by framing discussions of sex as transactional.

I don’t know if you are trying to miss the point, or just have a gift for it, but none of the rest of your supposed response to me is at all on point.  You are simply making unsupported ad homs.

Shame on you.

Comment #568: Ismone  on  07/27  at  03:06 AM

Ariel:

So there are two aspects to this business of how we view sex work. Ismone mentioned the two of them previously: the public policy side of things and the ethical side of things. Public policy models are discussed in the Feministe post. And ethics are mentioned, but that is not the main gist of the post. Here, we are discussing the ethics of sex as a transaction and how that harms women. That is related to but not the same as what our public policies should be wrt sex workers. However, since you brought sex work into the mix, I am interested in this part of your response:


But as far as non-abusive johns, what do you want them to feel? l sense that you expect them to feel despicable for making a sex worker suffer them, and feel guilty and pathetic and what not. You’ll need to ask a john about that, but I’d guess that most people don’t see themselves as a pshychic punishment. So, no, I don’t expect that the average john will be thinking about how he’s causing great harm and suffering to the sex worker. Unless he’s an abusive piece of shit.

There is no such thing as a non-abusive john b/c women don’t enter sex work, in the vast majority of instances, with free agency. So a john using another human being as a masturbatory body is being inherently abusive. That isn’t a public policy argument—that’s an ethics argument. And this whole post was asking us to look at and consider the implications of sex-as-transaction as it relates to and affects women—ALL women—not just sex workers. But we can see that women who enter sex work, as it currently stands in a lot of unregulated glory, and even when regulated, isn’t the bastion of health and well-being for women who do that work.  It’s really hard for me to understand how you can argue that the fact that I am calling johns unethical douchbags (all of them) is evidence that I am anti-sex worker.

Ethical, meaningful consent isn’t possible in sex work, in most but not all instances, b/c of all the answers to the questions in the first part of my post that I notice you conveniently avoided answering.

If all women had other ways of earning money, if all women were protected from sexual abuse, rape, and sexual trauma in infancy/childhood and were not raised from infancy in a culture that treated them as the sex class, if all women knew that they had value outside of how attractive they are to men and whether they are able to attract them, how many would choose freely to sell sexual service to anyone with $100?

Comment #569: tookish  on  07/27  at  03:58 AM

Also, this:

Is it ok for Japanese women to sell sex to buy luxury goods? I’m not a position to say that their calculus is wrong, however ridiculous I find the allure of the Birkin bag.

is not as important as the men who are purchasing their services. What kind of men do this? Unethical human beings who don’t see the humanity in the women whose services they are purchasing. Stop thinking about what the women should or shouldn’t be doing for a minute and think about the implications of what the men with the power and $$ are doing.

Comment #570: tookish  on  07/27  at  04:10 AM
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