Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: The red herring of bad parenting Previous entry: Bamboo Review: The Walking Dead

C’mon, we can do this acting like grown-ups thing

Crime

Update: Julian Assange has been arrested.  Again, I must point out that if we treated rape seriously even when the accused aren’t people that are embarrassing the U.S. government, rape would probably be far smaller of a problem.

When I was in junior high school, one of my classmates got pregnant on accident.  The rumor spread quickly—-who knows if it was true—-that she was having sex with her boyfriend, the condom broke, she begged him to quit and he wouldn’t.  Even at the tender age of 13 years old, I knew that there was no way on earth that this was morally acceptable, or even close to it, and the proof was in the pregnancy that she (purportedly) begged him not to inflict on her against her will.  Again, this was a rumor.  No way of knowing if it was true.  But what I do know is that my friends and I who were horrified were 100% right.  What is amazing to me is when grown adults can’t wrap their minds around what childish virgins understand, which is that it’s wrong to fuck a woman who has withdrawn her consent, no matter when she does it.  It’s assault.  It’s rape, even if it’s not legally rape.

Interpol is using a rape accusation that resembles this one to put Julian Assange on their most-wanted listAs Lindsay points out, this is just silly.  Sex crimes are never actually taken this seriously—-we feminists wish!—-and I’m annoyed to see rape used in this way, considering that rape apologists are already eager to suggest that rape accusations are about some evil bitch with ulterior motives.  Indeed, as Lindsay notes, the usual rape apologist tropes are being employed, this time by people who should know better.  Jill has more on why forcibly fucking a woman who has withdrawn her consent because the condom conditions weren’t met is in fact rape, and it should always be legally treated as such.  The key here is “consent”, which was withdrawn.  That means that the woman was non-consenting.  Having sex with a non-consenting person is rape. This shouldn’t be so complicated.

I don’t know if Julian Assange is guilty, of course, but I’m deeply disturbed by the people who aren’t content with suggesting that Interpol is politicizing a crime that shouldn’t be politicized, but instead slurring the victims with the usual course of rape apologist tactics, including accusing a victim of the high crime of being a “radical feminist”.  I suppose we should find this evidence against her, instead of evidence that Assange has sex with other people in the community of political radicals to which he belongs. I’m sorry, but why on earth is it so hard to believe that Assange is the kind of guy who power trips on women by promising to use a condom and then slipping it off during sex?  This is one of the most common kinds of sexual assault there is, and a favorite way for guys with power issues to get cheap thrills at the expense of women, who they often feel are contemptible and weak.  Are we to assume that someone who clearly gets a rise out of making the most powerful nation on the planet scramble around in a chickens-with-heads-cut-off manner doesn’t have a tendency to ego trip?  Are we to assume someone who risks life and limb for this isn’t the kind of guy who might get smaller kicks out of smaller, less internationally interesting power trips?  Why are we to assume that?

I’m not commenting either way on the Wikileaks documents and what they mean and how important it is that they’re released.  I’m just annoyed at people’s black-and-white thinking—-believing that because they support Assange’s actions in this one case, that means that his motivations must be pure as the driven snow and he must generally be above reproach.  It doesn’t work that way.  If anything, my experience says to me that men on the radical political fringes are quite often big assholes with power issues that they take out on women.  I’ve definitely seen with my own eyes the way that anti-war demonstrators who devote their lives to the cause often have the women in the kitchen making sandwiches while the men sit around on their asses bullshitting.  And I’ve heard more than one story about anarchist communes and how the women are, despite all the lip smacking about radical politics, relegated to very unradical gender roles, which are, in turn, justified by some high-falutin’ rhetoric.  Certainly in punk communities where there is contempt for state power, you often see women treated like shit in ways that exceed how badly they are treated in less radical spaces.  I’m not saying everyone or all the time.  Just noting that it’s completely silly to think that leftists, especially in the fringe, aren’t capable of being massive dicks about women’s right to things such as bodily autonomy.

We can be grown-ups here.  We can entertain the idea that Wikileaks is performing a valuable service while acknowledging the strong possibility that Julian Assange is himself an asshole who treats women like they’re objects he can exert his massive power issues on.  We can criticize Interpol for treating these alleged sex crimes more seriously than they ever treat sex crimes and maintain sympathy for women who reportedly were quite afraid they had been exposed to unintended pregnancy or worse.  Maybe we can even do one better than that, and accept that more than a few men who consider themselves liberals or even leftists—-or may even claim to be feminists—-still act like women’s concerns should be dismissed and our rights can be transgressed with ease.  I’m not accusing Assange of anything, but I seriously think it’s silly to think the accusations couldn’t be credible.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:45 AM • (178) Comments

You have no idea how grateful I am to you for pointing this out, Amanda.  The level of rage directed against Julian Assange’s accuser are incredibly disturbing; he makes my skin crawl, and whether or not Wikileaks is of value (I personally have some real problems with the site), Assange himself comes across as pretty skeevy.

I’ve also noticed that once again the old leftie misogyny is coming to the fore in the wake of the elections, not only in some of the writing against Sarah Palin but in the calls for Obama to resign, be impeached, or face a primary opponent.  People don’t seem to realize that Ginsburg almost certainly won’t last until 2016, not to mention Scalia and Thomas.  A Republican president *will* appoint hard line conservatives to replace all three of these justices, and if that happens, say good-bye to Roe v. Wade and Griswold v. Connecticut.  Of course the activists will only scream if Miranda or one of the prayer/creche decisions is overturned…..

Comment #1: Ellid  on  12/07  at  09:53 AM

Exactly. My first thought when I heard about the accusation was that he didn´t get where he is respecting boundaries. And while I find wikileaks a great project, that way of thinking could make him awful to meet.

Comment #2: Maria  on  12/07  at  10:03 AM

I’m not completely up to speed on this story, but apparently Julian Assange was arrested in the past few hours in London.

I’m not sure exactly what I think of the whole Wikileaks business, but I’ve been amused by wingnuts screeching that Assange should be tried for treason, obviously unaware of the legal definition of treason.  As he is an Australian citizen, it is impossible for him to commit an act of treason against a country to which he has no allegiance, namely the United States of America. Regardless of how slimy the guy might be - and at least in regard to the rape allegation he seems pretty slimy - it’s truly frightening how many wingnuts in the media have openly suggested that Assange should be assassinated by our government.

Comment #3: DTGslu2K  on  12/07  at  10:10 AM

I was also of the opinion that, whether the accusations are true or not, they weren’t concocted out of whole cloth by the CIA or whomever but that Interpol probably cynically made them a top priority whereas if Assange hadn’t been a pain in the ass of the most powerful country on the planet, nobody would have made much waves about his rape accusations and he’d have most likely walked.

Comment #4: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  10:16 AM

Fine analysis, but I wonder why you decided on this comment:  “We can be grown-ups here.”  As you pointed out in the beginning of the piece, it’s not as if non-adults can’t make a similar analysis and, alas, the metaphor has become a kind of reflexive Republican trope “Let’s have a grown-up conversation” they say, seeming to mean “We’ll talk, you’ll listen and then give us what we want.”

Comment #5: elisabeth51  on  12/07  at  10:18 AM

I find some children can sometimes be more adult that most adults.  This is probably one such case.  Also, everything Ellid says in 1.  That guy makes my skin crawl just seeing him on tv, and major power trip vibes just roll off the screen.
@3: it doesn’t suprise me that so many people don’t know the meaning of the word treason or are unaware of Assange not being a USA citizen and so not able to commit treason against it, but I continue to be disgusted by the fact.

Comment #6: helen w. h.  on  12/07  at  10:25 AM

The pretense that the international effort to haul his ass in front of a court is just because! we swear! he’s been accused of a sex crime has been making my eyes try to roll out of my skull since they started it.  If the various law enforcement agencies involved put a tenth of the time and effort into less politically-convenient investigations—or hell, took less politically-convenient charges a tenth as seriously—as this one, we’d see far fewer serial rapists racking up dozens of victims before being caught on sheer chance.  It’s galling to watch everyone go through this big act like they always devote these sort of resources to apprehending accused rapists.

“I’m just annoyed at people’s black-and-white thinking—-believing that because they support Assange’s actions in this one case, that means that his motivations must be pure as the driven snow and he must generally be above reproach.”

God, yes.  Especially given the amount of internet-commentary offering a perfectly viable alternate narrative (right thing, wrong reasons) and carving out mental space for people who wouldn’t necessarily get there on their own to think “What he’s done is important, and this sort of thing needs to be protected, but man, that dude is personally a super-sketchy, megawatt asshole.”

Comment #7: preying mantis  on  12/07  at  10:28 AM

I don’t think we’ll ever be able to discern an absolute truth in this case. There’s a clear political motive coupled with a very good likelihood that events occurred exactly as stated. It’s a well-known fact that radical infogeeks can be misogynistic and even dangerous assholes - See Hans Reiser = https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hans_Reiser -  for the extremes of this phenomenon, but it happens all the time. There are very hairy stories that are circulated regarding the conduct of particular leading lights of the free software movement, for example. It’s also clear that this would not have been given anywhere near the profile it has been if it weren’t for Assange’s little US government problem. I mean, come on - an Interpol warrant for rape that allegedly didn’t involve excessive violence? That doesn’t happen. In the end this boils down to an old-fashioned he-said/she-said case, with a slightly higher chance of the she-said side prevailing for once for all the unfortunately wrong reasons.

Comment #8: katydid  on  12/07  at  10:36 AM

I remember earlier in the year, Al Gore was accused of sexual harassment and later it turned out to be bogus.  Like you said, Assange might be guilty, he might not be.  But if I was to choose a side right now, I would fall on the “it’s bullshit” side.  If he’s guilty, fuck him, but I have to call skepticism now.

Comment #9: Albert Cirrus  on  12/07  at  10:37 AM

I’ve also noticed that once again the old leftie misogyny is coming to the fore in the wake of the elections, not only in some of the writing against Sarah Palin but in the calls for Obama to resign, be impeached, or face a primary opponent.  People don’t seem to realize that Ginsburg almost certainly won’t last until 2016, not to mention Scalia and Thomas.  A Republican president *will* appoint hard line conservatives to replace all three of these justices, and if that happens, say good-bye to Roe v. Wade and Griswold v. Connecticut.

I am very worried about this possibility. I understand the frustration with Obama, because after yesterday’s complete capitulation to the whims of Sen. McConnell and our incoming Orange-American Speaker of the House on the Bush tax cuts, it’s getting harder to defend this Administration.

Having said that, realistically one of two things will happen in 2012; either President Obama will get re-elected, or a Republican (Palin? Romney? Huckabee?) will become our 45th POTUS in January 2013. In a perfect system, primarying a president who isn’t delivering to his/her base should be a viable option. Unfortunately, this isn’t a perfect system, and primarying incumbent presidents has proven disasterous throughout American history. What ultimately happens is that the party suffers a bitter divide, and whoever wins the nomination is set up to fail, because they can’t even count on all of their party base to vote for them.

If you want to support a primary challenge for Obama, that’s fine. But I guarantee that if any serious contender emerges to actually challenge Obama for the party nomination in 2012, the Republicans will absolutely take back the White House in the general election, regardless of who the Democratic nominee is.

I’m feeling pretty gloomy right now, because extending tax cuts for the ultra rich is only going to increase the deficit (which Republicans will immediately blame on President Obama), and it’s ridiculous to think the extension is going to lead to millions of new jobs. They had these cuts for the past decade, and yet we’re still near 10% unemployment (nearly 17% when you include those who have stopped looking for work).

Sure, if things turn around, Obama can win re-election, but I’m a lot less confident today about things turning around than I was two years ago. If the unemployment numbers don’t get noticeably better between now and November 2012, Barack Obama is a one-term president.

President Obama has my vote in two years, because regardless of how milquetoast I may think he is, I know that his GOP opponent will be worse. But a lot of voters may not vote, if the best thing they can say about President Obama is that he’ll be less crappy than whoever his opponent is. Democrats lost bad last month because all they could say about themselves was that Republicans are worse. If President Obama is perceived as nothing more than “the lesser of two evils” by the base voters, get ready for the Reichwing to take back the White House.

I’m still hoping for Palin to get nominated by the teabaggers, because I think that she’s just so ridiculously unqualified and dangerous that Obama could beat her even if the economy is still in the toilet. That said, if she actually does run and win the GOP nomination, and then goes on to win the general election, I will defect to Canada, even if I have to sell a kidney to make it happen. There’s just no fucking way I’m gonna stick around if someone who makes George W. Bush look like a sensible moderate is in the Oval Office in two years.

Comment #10: DTGslu2K  on  12/07  at  10:46 AM

Yes, elisabeth. It’s a rhetorical device—-like helen was basically pointing out.  Children are often better grown-ups than grown-ups.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  10:49 AM

I remember earlier in the year, Al Gore was accused of sexual harassment and later it turned out to be bogus.  Like you said, Assange might be guilty, he might not be.  But if I was to choose a side right now, I would fall on the “it’s bullshit” side.

Did it, Albert? I mean, it’s much harder to believe in Gore’s case, but “dropped the case” is not the same as “proved that the accuser was a liar”.  Do you have this proof that she was lying?  I never saw it!  I would have thought the proof she was lying would have been big news.  I don’t take “dropped the case” as proof.  That’s proof, at best, that they didn’t have enough evidence, and it’s often proof—-google “Ken Buck” and “rape”—-that the prosecutors think rape victims deserve it.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  10:53 AM

Anything that results in the equivalent of a $700 fine probably doesn’t warrant even a mention on Interpol in most cases, so there’s obviously something wrong there.  As for the crime, I heard two counts: one where he said he used a condom but didn’t and the other was where he used one that broke but continued.  The allegations are serious, but the police action seems at least a bit out of proportion.

And as an aside, am I the only man in existence who has never had a condom break during sex?  Is it common for others?  Maybe I’m too good at reading instructions and expiration dates (just found a pack that expired this year while cleaning out a drawer—and threw them away.)  Maybe there’s a benefit to being a lifelong nail biter, but there’s probably something more.  Lubrication?  Putting them on too tightly?  What goes wrong?

Comment #13: 3letterjon  on  12/07  at  11:04 AM

The problem here is (as you note) that there’s not enough information about the case against Assange, which seems dodgy and weak (too dodgy and weak for an Interpol red notice). The original Swedish prosecuter in Stockholm pulled the case, it was re-filed with another one who’s (unusually for a prosecutor) avoiding engaging with Assange’s attorney. And now Assange has turned himself in, which indicates he thinks he can beat the rap.

I can see him being a slimy guy—lots of high-profile men think they exist outside the rules. Your point about his being a risk addict is also informative. And he’s definitely become addicted to media attention, which never reflects well on a person’s character. But even so, the story behind the case is shaky. From the linked Ms. Magazine article:

he is wanted by a national jurisdiction–in this case Sweden–not for his document dump but because two women alleged that he refused to use a condom, or [refused to?] withdrew after a condom broke.

It’s reported that both women asked him separately to take a test for STDs, and when he refused they went to the police, who considered his actions a sex crime under Swedish law. One woman was “especially anxious about the possibility of HIV and pregnancy,” according to the Daily Mail.

And from the less credible Counterpunch article, stripped as much as possible of the site’s usual leftist dudebro misogynist nonsense:

She had invited Julian Assange to a crayfish party, and they had enjoyed some quality time together. When [complainant] discovered that Julian shared a similar experience with a 20-year-old woman a day or two later, she obtained the younger woman’s cooperation in declaring before the police that changing partners in so rapid a manner constituted a sort of deceit. And deceit is a sort of rape. The prosecutor immediately issued an arrest warrant, and the press was duly notified. Once the facts were examined in the cold light of day, the charge of rape seemed ludicrous and was immediately dropped. In the meantime the younger woman, perhaps realizing how she had been used, withdrew her report.

The only indication I’ve seen from the story is the arsehole move of (allegedly) having a penchant to pressure women he’s having sex with into ignoring condom use. Further, only one of the women in question (the remaining complainant) may have withdrawn consent when he said he wouldn’t use a condom or in the middle of the act when the condom broke and he wouldn’t withdraw before his climax. If either was the case, it was indeed a non-consensual act by Assange, but given his surrender I’m guessing that he believes that the case against him, while it may have a credible basis under Swedish law, will come down to an all-too-common “he-said/she-said” situation.

In short, the only thing that’s clear here about this case at the moment, and the only thing that should be focused on, is that it’s been outrageously politicised by governments and shadow governments who are livid at having their communications networks exposed and compromised.

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  11:16 AM

And as an aside, am I the only man in existence who has never had a condom break during sex?  Is it common for others?

This is somewhat of an aside, but I’ve been wondering how obvious it is when a condom breaks during sex. I’ve never had it happen. As a woman, I can’t always tell whether there IS a condom or not, so I can totally believe that a man could trick a woman into thinking he’s wearing one when he’s not. But if it breaks during the act, is it clear to either partner that it broke? I sort of thought you’d find out afterwards, when pulling out. At least, given that I can’t really feel the condom in the first place, I don’t think i’d notice if it broke, but I’m asking if its typically easy for the man to feel that it broke. (I guess if you pull out in the middle to change positions, or something, then you’d notice, but that wasn’t how it sounded to me when they described him continuing rather than resuming.)

Comment #15: geogami  on  12/07  at  11:25 AM

geogami, there’s definitely a difference between wearing one and not wearing one, but I could imagine it being subtle enough for a man not to notice.  Plus, some are thinner or fit better than others.  And although I’ve never had one break during sex, I would imagine it would make a difference where on the condom it broke.  I’ve heard that many men wear them without any extra room at the end (is it a pride thing? “Look honey, I fill the whole thing!”) and have failures as a result, but I never tried that seeing as how I wear condoms so they actually, you know, protect.  Short answer: yes, it’s possible to not notice, but much more likely for the man to notice.  Until things are done, in which case it should be more obvious to the woman (assuming heterosexual sex.)

Comment #16: 3letterjon  on  12/07  at  11:40 AM

Really, we should have known that any man who was that blonde was probably evil. (Standard TV Tropes warning applies.)

Comment #17: mr_subjunctive  on  12/07  at  11:42 AM

This news scares me. I think your post is totally right Amanda and it’s important that one make it, and vilifying Assange’s accusers is a sign of misogynistic black-and-white thinking, yes yes yes… But there’s been a concerted effort by everyone of importance to CRUSH Wikileaks. Many countries have been putting pressure on service providers to stop hosting them, Mastercard is blocking money transfers to them, they’re US DNS provider blocked them (“because” they were getting so many DDOS attacks it was compromising the other sites, there’s that too), Assange’s bank account has been frozen, Australia is thinking of cancelling his passport...

And now he’s been arrested, I can perfectly imagine the Swedes holding him as long as they can while the US scrambles to find some illegality he committed and then extraditing him. Or would they even bother ? They could just call him a terrorist. I hope I’m being paranoid here but I thought Assange was being paranoid when I read about how secretive he was.

So let’s say everything is true and Assange is a dirty rapist and people defending him are exhibiting misogyny. It isn’t half as important as the war on free speech that’s going on at the moment.
As far as I’m concerned, forget Assange. He’s been arrested, whatever, see how the trial goes. If it’s fair, great.

But if Wikileaks disappears as a result of the concerted efforts of every government in the world, how confident will you feel about freedom of speech and the reliability of the information coming to you ? Who will dare build the next whistle-blowing website ? This isn’t about the pertinence or danger of Wikileak’s information; it might be an issue, but that’s not why the government is trying to sink them. And if they succeed I’m pretty sure Perfectly Ethical Whistle-Blowing websites will have trouble too. And it’s not like the US media have been awesome watchdogs lately.

Comment #18: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  11:46 AM

Geogami @ 15

On the topic of this particular aside, I’ve had a condom break once and I couldn’t tell until he pulled out at the end.  On another occasion, the condom came off during the act and again, neither of us noticed until the end.  Granted, I was in high school on both occasions and was probably doing something wrong, as it hasn’t happened since, but in my experience it wasn’t at all noticeable during the actual act. 

That said, if it did happen in this case and if he (or she) did notice and he refused a request to stop, or if he refused a request to stop for any (or no) particular reason, then that makes him a grade A asshole and, while I don’t know whether legally it is wrong, although it should be, it is definitely morally and ethically wrong.

Comment #19: ks  on  12/07  at  11:47 AM

Amanda, failing a polygraph test, as the massuese in question did, isn’t proof of lying, but there was no DNA evidence which is probably the major reason the charges were dropped:

The complaining witness, Molly Hagerty, stated that she was sexually abused during a massage session at the Hotel Lucia when Gore was in Portland.

Hagerty failed a polygraph test during the course of the investigation, and there was no DNA evidence on the pants she claimed she wore during the alleged incident, according to investigators.

..............................................................


Multnomah County District Attorney Michael D. Schrunk issued a statement summarizing the deficiencies in the case:

  1. Ms. Hagerty, who has red hair, states she called Mr. Gore immediately following the alleged incident and told him to “dream of redheaded women” seemingly in contradiction to her assertions that she was terrified of Mr. Gore. Two days after the alleged incident Ms. Hagerty also sent an email to the Hotel Lucia stating that she appreciated the business referrals she received from the hotel. She did not mention any problem with Mr. Gore;

  2. Witnesses at the hotel where the alleged incident occurred state they do not remember seeing or hearing anything unusual—-directly contradicting Ms. Hagerty’s published claim in the July 12, 2010 of the National Enquirer that she was “shaking and in shock” and “rushed down the hall and to the lobby where the front desk clerk noticed she was upset was asked if she was OK”;

  3. Forensic testing of pants retained by Ms. Hagerty as possible evidence are negative for the presence of seminal fluid;

  4. Ms. Hagerty has not provided as repeatedly requested medical records she claims are related to the case;

  5. Ms. Hagerty has also failed to provide other records related to the case;

  6. Ms. Hagerty failed a polygraph examination;

  7. It appears Ms. Hagerty was paid by the National Enquirer for her story; and

  8. Mr. Gore voluntarily met with detectives and denied all of the allegations.

#8 wouldn’t hold any weight with me, but clearly this case was problematical on several grounds, YMMV.

Comment #20: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/07  at  11:55 AM

The politicization of this case is disturbing.  Not just the Interpol involvement, but the fact that the case was revived.  Unless I’m getting my creepy Julian Assange cases mixed up, the charges were initially dismissed, but were filed again after he embarrassed the US.  Is the prosecutor having his strings pulled from across the ocean?  Were the charges refiled because the alleged perpetrator suddenly had a higher profile and would constitute a bigger feather in the cap of law enforcement?  Were they refiled because of new evidence or complaints by the victim(s)?  Why did this all come up after the US document dump?  Until I have the answers to those sorts of questions, I’m going to be a little uncomfortable about this whole thing.  There may be legitimate reasons for the timing (though I can’t really imagine a legitimate reason for the Interpol most wanted move), but it smells political.

Saying that it’s political isn’t a commentary on guilt or innocence, or on whether guilt can be proven to whatever standard the Swedish courts use.  It’s just an opinion that I don’t think we’d be having this conversation if not for the document dump.  He may be paranoid, but people really are out to get him.

Comment #21: libdevil  on  12/07  at  12:00 PM

Whether or not you can tell if a condom breaks is a red herring, being employed here to turn the discussion from questions of sexual assault to 3letterjon’s ever so important penis.  It actually doesn’t matter why a woman withdraws consent.  Once consent has been withdrawn, continuing is rape.  If she believes, true or not, the condom has broken, it is your moral and should be legal obligation to pull out immediately.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  12:07 PM

Mastercard is blocking money transfers to them

Annnd I just found out, Visa too. So much for credit cards then.

Comment #23: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  12:08 PM

Except for the polygraph, I think a couple of those are good reasons, Dark.  Relief to know, since unlike Julian Assange, it’s hard to picture Al Gore as some kind of rapist.  But polygraph machines should be banned, seriously.  They don’t work for shit.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  12:09 PM

This is at best a rerun of “ZOMG the Taliban oppress women! We must invade them!” And yeah, it seems pretty likely that Assange is not the nicest guy around. But I’m take the charges seriously simply because a) going to the police about a sex crime committed by an otherwise-consensual partner can’t be fun, even in Sweden, and b) these women had to know that they were in for a huge amount of pain reporting Assange in particular. Unless you want to posit that both women are CIA/NKVD/Mossad sleeper agents, that part of the conspiracy theory makes no sense.

Does anyone have statistics on how often this kind of sexual assault is perpetrated and prosecuted in Sweden? (I can imagine that prosecutors in the future are going to have an interesting time if they try to ignore such cases.)

(And yeah, have broken condoms on a few occasions—usually noticeable, sometimes not. One brand in particular was prone to breakage, which was unfortunate.)

Comment #25: paul  on  12/07  at  12:17 PM

Regarding the governments of the world’s attacks on WikiLeaks: WikiLeaks documents must be all over the Darknet by now so their continued existence, at least, is guaranteed. The obvious problem is that access to the general public instead of a small clique of in-the-know tech geeks isn’t guaranteed.

Comment #26: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  12:19 PM

“Relief to know, since unlike Julian Assange, it’s hard to picture Al Gore as some kind of rapist.”

I sense some sort of prejudice here.  Yes Julian looks a little creepy and his lifestyle might make him an easy target, but that doesn’t make him a rapist.

Comment #27: Albert Cirrus  on  12/07  at  12:26 PM

3letter—Condoms can break for a lot of reasons due to poor education on how to use them. A few I can remember off the top of my head include not pinching the tip on application to provide a well, snagging with nails, using inappropriate lube (vaseline), or putting on more than one condom because it will make you that much more safe. These are all very common problems for people who have not received appropriate comprehensive sex education and have to fill in the gaps with television and bullshit they hear from friends.

It seems that men have a really hard time with the withdrawal of consent idea. I really like the sexual-intercourse-as-houseguest analogy. If you ask a guy to picture himself letting a friend into his home, there are going to be particular caveats to letting that friend into your home that are expected: it can be that they take off their muddy shoes, it can be that they don’t shout, it can be that they don’t steal shit or otherwise wreck the place, or talk smack about your partner. If you let someone into your house and then they start shouting at the top of your lungs about what an asshole your partner is, you have every right to eject them from your house. Hell, it might not even be something that they do: You might suddenly feel sick or something and need privacy. The point is, if they don’t leave when they have been asked, it’s trespassing and you can call the police because they’re committing a crime. Now imagine your house is your body—which is even more personal and intimate than property is, and how much of a violation it would be to have someone violate the terms of being a guest inside your body.

Having a condom break isn’t just about pregnancy, it can be a life-threatening thing if one of you has a STI.

Comment #28: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/07  at  12:26 PM

When I first heard about this, I thought “Wow, so this is what it takes for a rapist to be prosecuted”.  Now if only we could make all rapists enemies of various governments, then we’d finally start getting some conviction rates.  It’s a sad statement that I am this happy that at least one rapists will get what he deserves.

Comment #29: bananacat  on  12/07  at  12:27 PM

I’ve also just realized my comment could be construed as - okay, is - an attempt to derail from a feminist topic. It is certainly not my intention to imply that left-wing misogyny isn’t an important issue. But reading Greenwald’s last post and hearing about the arrest on the radio really freaked me out and I thought “hey, Pandagon has a post about Assange up, I can talk about it there”. And, well, I do think that although rape allegations are an important issue in their own right, this specific one is a piece of misdirection to distract from something much more important.

Comment #30: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  12:30 PM

MP, I think the house guest analogy is a fantastic one, and it goes even further.  It’s also something that most rape apologists can understand.  If you invite someone to a party one weekend, that doesn’t mean they can come the next party you have, and it certainly doesn’t mean they can enter your house whenever they want.  If you invite one, one hundred, or 1 thousand people to your house, that absolutely does not mean that any other person can just come in without permission.  If you leave your doors hanging wide open with an aromatic buffet and a comfy couch, that doesn’t mean that any person can just walk in because they’re tempted.  It goes on and on, and it’s sad that many people have more respect for property than for women’s bodies.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  12/07  at  12:36 PM

I sense some sort of prejudice here.  Yes Julian looks a little creepy and his lifestyle might make him an easy target, but that doesn’t make him a rapist.

It doesn’t for sure, but please don’t be so condescending. You aren’t a woman and you don’t have to always be gauging men for their trustworthiness, and therefore you haven’t developed the skill set here.  Creepiness is a big red flag.  There are others, but while it doesn’t make Assange a rapist, it sure does—-in the experience of someone like myself who has been threatened and raped and has to be on guard simply due to my gender—-raise the odds.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  12:46 PM

Caravelle, I wasn’t responding to your comments about whether or not the arrest is appropriate, under the circumstances.  That is wide open.  I’m shutting the door to people trying to confuse the issue with “sometimes you don’t know if the condom broke!!!!!”  That’s not the issue here.  The question is, was consent withdrawn and/or were conditions deliberately not met?  The case seems to be yes, and thus instances where someone makes an honest mistake—-or what 3letterjon feels we need to know about his penis—-are completely and utterly irrelevant.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  12:50 PM

I agree w/BlackBloc. The guy is an asshole, but the only reason there treating this seriously is because he fucked with the federal government. This should be a lesson for future people that want to do something like this though—if you’re going to screw with the US government (or the government of any major power, you better have a clean, pristine past and keep it that way.


@Caravelle

It was bad even before this. Ever read the HuffPo comments section? You can cut the misogyny there with a knife.

Comment #34: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  12:58 PM

I emailed <a >Interpol</a> for some data on the annual number of red notices based on rape warrants from member countries. We’ll see if they provide it.

Comment #35: ema  on  12/07  at  12:58 PM

I mean, come on - an Interpol warrant for rape that allegedly didn’t involve excessive violence? That doesn’t happen.

Yep, I agree.  Which is not to say that I don’t believe/support the accusers.  Everything Amanda wrote about Assange being on one big power trip makes sense.  But the timing is really interesting to say the least.

Comment #36: Kristen from MA  on  12/07  at  12:59 PM

Really, we should have known that any man who was that blonde was probably evil.

Yeah, he does look like Draco Malfoy’s creepy meth addict cousin.

Anyway, thanks for distilling this so neatly, Amanda.

Comment #37: KristinMH  on  12/07  at  01:02 PM

Plus the warrant is from the Swedish government. Suggesting that Sweden, a neutral, left-wing European country is some lackey/puppet of the US is beyond absurd.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:03 PM

It’s interesting that some of the same journalists and bloggers who were making excuses for Roman Polanski are now acting as though Assange’s (alleged) much less serious crime on the same spectrum is the WORST CRIME EVAH!  I guess it’s okay to sexually assault someone as long as you’re rich and powerful and have the right friends, but Assange doesn’t get the same privilege.

But, as with Polanski, you can think that the guy is an asswipe and still think he does good or valuable work.  The two are not mutually exclusive.

Comment #39: Mnemosyne  on  12/07  at  01:05 PM

@BenD: The kind of people who are willing to go against a major government are very unlikely to be squeaky clean. Hell, the majority of us don’t have something majorly wrong like rape in our closet but I expect that we all have something that a malicious government could use to dirty us if put in the ‘right light’. There are things I am willing to talk about myself (being in an open relationship, practicing BDSM occasionally, being bisexual) in certain friendly public settings that could very easily be distorted to discredit me in the media. Hell, just the fact that I’m a ‘radical feminist’ or an anarchist is probably enough.

Comment #40: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  01:08 PM

I fully support wikileaks and the disclosure of these documents.  I agree with the rest of your post completely.  (I especially agree with your take on leftist men in the peace movement, that has been my experience with them exactly) I have been tearing my hair out trying to get liberal men in atrios’ and Digby’s comments sections to see this.  How hard is it?

Then I went to the huffpo and read Naomi wolf’s piece (she linked to the piece charging this woman with being a “radical feminist” as backup for her position), and I almost had a heart attack.

That woman has finally gone round the bend.  Luckily, lots of men who hate feminists are rushing to sign in and tell Naomi how many “new fans” she has. 

It figures the HP published that trash.

Comment #41: Lady Vader  on  12/07  at  01:09 PM

@#9 Agreed, Albert Cirrus.  Waaaay tooo “convenient.”  Wasn’t there an American soldier, critical of the Middleeast American acts of aggression, who was smear campaigned with pedophilia charges?

The charges,  as I’ve read it reported, is that either, Assange didn’t stop when the condom broke - OK, so the prosecutor in that case would not only have to prove when the condom broke, but that Assange knew when it did - good luck with that one.

Comment #42: phylosopher  on  12/07  at  01:10 PM

I emailed Interpol for some data on the annual number of red notices based on rape warrants from member countries. We’ll see if they provide it.

Actually, I think it’s fairly common if a member country asks them to facilitate the arrest.  Roman Polanski had a red notice on him for years.  I think it often has more to do with one’s fugitive status than specifically with the crime committed.

But they were suspiciously prompt in following through with this particular case.

Comment #43: Mnemosyne  on  12/07  at  01:10 PM

I’ve had condoms break a couple of times. In both cases, I totally noticed—the difference is really obvious—but she did not. I stopped because it seemed dickish to continue.

I’ve read all the links now and can’t say I’m any closer to any idea as to what Assange supposedly did that rises to the level of something worthy of international prosecution. He sounds like the kind of entitled chunp who will tell a woman whatever he thinks she wants to hear in order to get her into bed. Which makes him an ass, but an international criminal? If I were a prosecutor, I would be torn about a case where a woman reports a story where the condom broke and the guy wouldn’t stop, because no matter how credible she was, it would be at best a crapshoot in front of a jury due to the lack of meaningful evidence and the innocent until proved guilty standard. You’re always going to get a jackass on the jury who thinks, “Well, she let him into the house; it’s her fault he wrecked the kitchen,” and at least one more who’s going to refuse to convict because there’s no proof outside of testimony. And probably another one who thinks all women are liars.

But even if we assume he’s slipping off his condoms with criminal intent, the search to brand and prosecute him is obviously political and vastly out of proportion. The guy is a hero—and like most heroes, a narcissistic sociopath—for exposing the lies of the system, so not only should we not be surprised when it turns out that he himself is a giant liar, but we should also be extremely skeptical about conveniently evidence-free charges being brought against him by that very system.

Comment #44: felagund  on  12/07  at  01:15 PM

Yes, but those things aren’t illegal. I’m not talking about being different, but committing violent crimes or evading taxes (though I admit the IRS and their foreign equivalents could probably find a technical violation on just about anybody if they looked hard enough).

I just hope this incident doesn’t cause the Congress to pass some anti-free speech bullshit like the UK State Secrets Act.

Comment #45: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:15 PM

Not having a squeaky clean past does not equal being a rapist. Sorry. I have drug use and partying and general rowdiness/anti-authoritarian/leftist activities in my past. So not squeaky clean. But fuck anyone who claims that is the same as being a rapist. That excuse just smacks of the ‘boys will be boys’ aspect of rape culture.

Comment #46: sizzle  on  12/07  at  01:18 PM

BTW am I the only won who thought the diplomatic cables a bit anti-climactic? The US wasn’t even the country that looked the worst in all of this, I think that “award” goes to the Gulf Arab States or Russia.

Another odd thing was that the Chinese didn’t come out looking all that bad, either.

Comment #47: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:19 PM

That post at 41 is me, I have several different computers, and for some reason, different sign ins on them.  I guess I couldn’t remember my pw or something, whatever.

I just want to add that, even though I have been having arguments with liberal men about this, I actually am far more suspicious than I think Amanda is about these particular charges.  I mean, they have done everything to this guy.  There’s no way they wouldn’t phony up a rape charge.  But, here’s the thing; if you get yourself on the enemies list of the US Government, the first thing they are going to do is go through your underwear drawer.  Now, if there’s no coke in it, they’ll plant some. But, if there is coke there, saves them the trouble.

So, first they searched for anything damaging they could find on this guy.  THat means, the charges could be true.  However, if they didn’t find anything, they definitely would plant something.  SO, I am very suspsicious of the charges.

My problem has been not iwth saying you are suspicious of the charges in this case - that’s fine! - but with the guys who are mocking the actual charges themselves.  The very issue of consent is being tossed aside, or worse, laughed at.  “Sex by surprise” has become a hysterical joke in some liberal circles.  And the idea that a man continuing sex after his condom came off and the woman has told him to stop is forced sex, rape, is being laughed at.

See, those things are not fucking funny.

Comment #48: Daisy  on  12/07  at  01:28 PM

@Daisy

Do you really think the Swedes of all people are puppets of the CIA? Really? It’s not quite as laughable as saying the Swiss are, but it’s close.

Comment #49: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:30 PM

You mean the Swiss who shut down Assange’s swiss bank accounts, those swiss?

I think that when the CIA wants to fuck with you, they are gonna get shit done.  That’s what I think.  Yeah.  If you closely at this case I don’t believe it’s possible to claim that the Swedish authorities have acted in the same manner they would have acted in had this been an unknown person.

Comment #50: Daisy  on  12/07  at  01:37 PM

“I’m shutting the door to people trying to confuse the issue with “sometimes you don’t know if the condom broke!!!!!” That’s not the issue here.”

Seriously.  If there’s a predicate for sex (birth control use, protection, no STDs) and neither of you are aware that the predicate wasn’t actually met (neither noticed a broken condom, the recent STD test had a false negative, the doc fucked up your vasectomy/implanon procedure), that sucks, but it’s largely an artifact of living in an imperfect world.  Nobody set out to mess with the standards there, or failed in due diligence to ensure standards were met.  That’s not even close to what’s under discussion.

Comment #51: preying mantis  on  12/07  at  01:39 PM

I agree with Paul at #25: if the United States government wanted Julian Assange arrested, they could have found any number of pretexts. But arresting him on a rape charge is intended to divide his potential supporters on the left.

Comment #52: Ridnik Chrome  on  12/07  at  01:39 PM

So, first they searched for anything damaging they could find on this guy.  THat means, the charges could be true.  However, if they didn’t find anything, they definitely would plant something.  SO, I am very suspsicious of the charges.

If it was a secret plot to take Assange down, shouldn’t they have planted something a little more serious than the equivalent of a misdemeanor that doesn’t even carry any jail time, only a fine?

The very smallness (relatively) of the crime actually makes it more plausible to me.  It’s like arresting him for jaywalking—something illegal, but usually not prosecuted.  If he was being accused of violently raping a 12-year-old, then I would be a lot more suspicious.

Comment #53: Mnemosyne  on  12/07  at  01:40 PM

Mnemosyne, they only needed to get him into custody.  He is being denied bail.  You dismiss the charges as frivilous, but it’s just breaking now - he’s been denied bail.

They’re not letting this guy go.  He will eventualy be extradited to the US to stand trial under the espionage act.  Holder is fine-tuning the charges as we speak.

Comment #54: Daisy  on  12/07  at  01:44 PM

Ben D. :

Do you really think the Swedes of all people are puppets of the CIA? Really? It’s not quite as laughable as saying the Swiss are, but it’s close.

They don’t need to be puppets of the CIA. The United States has a lot of clout in the world, it’s kinda the most powerful country in the world, economically and militarily. I’m sure the US has lots of economic and diplomatic exchanges with Sweden. I’m sure that all things being equal, Sweden would prefer the US to be well-disposed towards it. And I’m sure Sweden’s government, being a government, finds it just as well if everything they did didn’t end up publicly available on the internet.

In other words, you don’t have to be a client state to be talked by the US into doing something you probably don’t object to doing all that much in the first place.

Comment #55: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  01:44 PM

I think people are also forgetting here it wasn’t only the US government he embarrassed. Do you think Putin is happy about this? Berlusconi? Cameron? The Saudi King? Ahmadenijad (he even suggested that the leaks were planted by the CIA!)?

Comment #56: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:45 PM

Daisy :

He is being denied bail.  You dismiss the charges as frivilous, but it’s just breaking now - he’s been denied bail.

How significant is this in the UK ?

Comment #57: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  01:47 PM

Tiger Beatdown is on this also.

Comment #58: mr_subjunctive  on  12/07  at  01:49 PM

In other words, you don’t have to be a client state to be talked by the US into doing something you probably don’t object to doing all that much in the first place.

Well I do think that ALL governments in general don’t like Assange. You’re right, not even the Sweidsh government would want their secrets online. Read my above comment as well. No major country came out of this unscathed (which is also why it is a little facile to say Assange is merely “anti-American”).

Comment #59: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  01:49 PM

Ridnik - that may very well be true.  There’s a great way to avoid letting that be succesfull. 

Don’t be a rape apologist (not that you are).  You see how suspicious I am of these charges?  I don’t believe them.  But, I can’t know for sure, they may be true.  Here is what is important; I am always very clear that it’s rape the second a woman withdraws consent.  That it’s very possible Assange is an asshole.  That’s it’s even possible that he’s a rapist.  That the phrase “sex by surprise” is not a fucking joke.  That continuing sex after a condom has come off, against he expressed wishes of a woman, is not a fucking joke.

But as far as Assange goes - doesn’t matter - no one is denything the authenticity of the documents.  So his character is not on trial.  No one is asking that we believe his word, the documents speak for themselves.

Wikilieaks needs to be bigger than one man.  What if the charges are true?  What if it ended up he raped a dozen women?  WHere would we be then if we put all of our eggs in defending Assange against these charges?  The two things need to be separated.  Everyone must keep their heads.  It can be done.  Like Amanda said, we can do this and be adults about it.

Comment #60: Daisy  on  12/07  at  01:49 PM

I think Wikileaks and what it does is enormously important to the health of our democracy and of all democracies, since our so-called free press has been asleep at the switch at best—or in active collusion/conspiracy with governments and corporations at worst—for the last 40 years. Without the active scrutiny of a completely un-co-opted press, democracy is impossible—and we can see from our own grim experience what happens when a nation’s press is no longer doing its job.

That being said, I don’t for a moment rule out that what the women say is true. It’s certainly possible for all of the reasons Amanda laid out (and for the very good reason that two women have said he is) that Julian Assange is a rapist.

I also don’t rule out the possibility that the whole thing is politically motivated. As distasteful and distressing as I find it to entertain the rape-apologists’ arguments, I have to point out that it’s true that Assange has desperately pissed off some of the most powerful people and nations in the world. He’s a marked man, and as a result, this is far from a typical case. I find the circumstances of how the case has been handled thus far to be troubling, and I very much doubt the motives and sincerity of all of the governments involved.

I just hope that whatever happened, truth and justice prevail in the trial. 

I also hope that whether Assange is found guilty or innocent, that Wikileaks survives and keeps holding the bastards’ feet to the fire. They’re doing really important work.

Comment #61: Rumblelizard  on  12/07  at  01:52 PM

@sizzle: The fact that to the governments of the world rape WAS the same as mere indiscretions like those is *the problem*. I think we’re on agreement on that. That’s the whole fuckedupness of this issue: assuming Assange truly did these things, he’s a scumbag, but it is also true that nobody in power gave a shit until he made a nuisance of himself via WikiLeaks, and it is as fucked up that if it was anybody else who was not a rapist who had been behind WikiLeaks they would have spent as much efforts into destroying him or her. Because TO THEM the rape was only a weapon they could use against Assange and not any more significantly wrong than, say, adultery.

Comment #62: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  01:53 PM

If he was being accused of violently raping a 12-year-old, then I would be a lot more suspicious.

But if he was being accused of/plead guilty to violently raping a 12-year-old then he’d never be extradited, and certainly the Swiss would never have frozen his bank account. [/end tangential rant]

Amanda, I really appreciate this post. The actual charges (as far as I understand them - rape in the face of withdrawn consent) make total sense and I would not normally consider them fishy. The prosecution on the other hand seems crazy suspicious. It’s difficult to keep those two factors separate.

Comment #63: rivki  on  12/07  at  01:54 PM

Ben no I haven’t forgetten that, you are right - and in fact, I think that it may very well be when it became clear that he had stuff on BOA and BP that his fate was really sealed.  I should have mentioned that. 

come on, we know who is running everything these days don’t we?

Comment #64: Daisy  on  12/07  at  01:54 PM

Does anyone have statistics on how often this kind of sexual assault is perpetrated and prosecuted in Sweden?

Probably perpetrated fairly often, considering it seems to be a catch-all offence. Here’s more info on the criminal offence in question:

Assange’s London attorney, Mark Stephens, told AOL News today that Swedish prosecutors told him that Assange is wanted not for allegations of rape, as previously reported, but for something called “sex by surprise,” which he said involves a fine of 5,000 kronor or about $715.

[...]

“We don’t even know what ‘sex by surprise’ even means, and they haven’t told us,” Stephens said

[...]

the current prosecutor, Marianne Ny, who re-opened the case against Assange, has been active in the proposed reforms of Swedish rape laws that would, if passed, involve an investigation of whether an imbalance in power between two people could void one person’s insistence that the sex was consensual.

So it seems to be a prosecutorial alternative for more clear-cut cases of sexual coercion (e.g. violent sexual assault, blackmail, child molestation). If found guilty of, say, continuing to have sex despite your formerly consenting partner asking you to stop, you’re publically humiliated and pay $715, but that’s it. “Misdemeanour sexual assault,” if you will—I find it an odd concept, but I’m not Swedish.

I’m guessing the prosecution stats for an offence like this are dependent on who in the establishment has been offended in one way or another the defendant. And I doubt that a government is going to ask Interpol to put out an international APB on someone who doesn’t want to pay a $715 fine without other considerations being involved.

If it was a secret plot to take Assange down, shouldn’t they have planted something a little more serious than the equivalent of a misdemeanor that doesn’t even carry any jail time, only a fine?

It goes to the mentality of the offended parties in the establishment: “Assange has the capability to embarrass us, we can do the same to him and destroy that capability in the process.” They’re so focused on personality and media image that they don’t take into account the acephalous nature of operations like Wikileaks. As BlacBloc notes, this isn’t going to stop because Assange is out of commission for a while—the guy refused bail and is willing to sit in the clink while this plays out, so he’s clearly not worried that the op he cares so much about will grind to a halt.

But arresting him on a rape charge is intended to divide his potential supporters on the left.

There’s something to this. However, for various reasons dividing potential supporters on the left isn’t so easy as trying to do so with right-wingers.

BTW am I the only won who thought the diplomatic cables a bit anti-climactic?

If you’re interested in this, read the article I linked to earlier—the specific revelations contained in the cables and in the Iraq war documents aren’t the point of this effort.

It’s not news to anyone who cares about international affairs that the House of Saud or the government of Pakistan aren’t really the West’s allies in the GWOT. It’s not news that Karzai is a corrupt tribal warlord or that Iraq never had a chance of becoming anything resembling a democracy post-Saddam. It’s not news that the concept of Muslim unity, absent a common enemy like the U.S. or Israel, is a total joke. And it’s not news that Russia is a corrupt oligarchy.

It isn’t even news that the U.S. government knows these things but pretends otherwise. Assange’s offence, in addition to forcing a debilitating “auto-immune” response in establishment communications networks, is that he provided solid evidence that their public proclamations on such issues are little more than BS. That is unforgivable in their eyes.

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  01:55 PM

But polygraph machines should be banned, seriously.  They don’t work for shit.

Your masterful(mistressful?) summary of the situation has that combination of poetry and plain-spokeness that I’ve found in many native Texans.

Oh, they might help in an investigation if all your suspects are ‘dumb shits’ as my mother used to say, and believe in the polygraph, but they should be left to history along with Lombroso’s theories about the inheritance of criminal traits.

Oh, and call me DA, that’s less typing grin

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/07  at  02:00 PM

I just tried donating to Wikileaks by bank transfer - they say I’ve passed my limit on bank transfers, which is ridiculous. I tried transferring the same amount to my mother - no problem. Whut ? o_O

Comment #67: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  02:11 PM

The kind of people who are willing to go against a major government are very unlikely to be squeaky clean. Hell, the majority of us don’t have something majorly wrong like rape in our closet but I expect that we all have something that a malicious government could use to dirty us if put in the ‘right light’. There are things I am willing to talk about myself (being in an open relationship, practicing BDSM occasionally, being bisexual) in certain friendly public settings that could very easily be distorted to discredit me in the media. Hell, just the fact that I’m a ‘radical feminist’ or an anarchist is probably enough.
Comment #40: BlackBloc on 12/07 at 12:08 PM

Having raped someone is very common.  Getting a victim to step forward is harder, of course, but it can be done.  This is convenient for police and prosecutors in the same way as broken taillights and speeding.

Leaving it unprosecuted most of the time means men’s guard is down and then boom they can be brought up on charges for doing what everyone else was doing.

I think maybe this is what some men are thinking when they say that any woman could claim she’s been raped.  It’s more like they think they’re an average guy and they know there was this one time, so if rape was really prosecuted every time, every man (because every man is like them) will be in jail.

Of course not all men are like that.

The charges, as I’ve read it reported, is that either, Assange didn’t stop when the condom broke - OK, so the prosecutor in that case would not only have to prove when the condom broke, but that Assange knew when it did - good luck with that one.
Comment #42: phylosopher on 12/07 at 12:10 PM

It’s not clear to me whether he didn’t stop after the condom broke and the women knew about it and said “stop,” or if they didn’t know it broke until after but believe he knew and didn’t stop.  The latter would be hard to prove here, but it might be different in Sweden.

Condoms do break unintentionally.  It’s happened once or twice to me (well, partners of mine).  But there are guys who intentionally damage the condom when putting it on, so it will break when they use it. 

Generally they do this in a casual encounter/one-night-stand, because if it always broke, it would become obvious what’s going on.

The creepnis, it never ends.

Comment #68: oldfeminist  on  12/07  at  02:16 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/7/glenn_greenwald_julian_assange_arrest_and

Here’s Amy Goodman interviewing Glenn Greenwald this morning.  I think it’s a really interesting read.  BTW Greenwald calls Sweden “subservient to the US”.  So that is interesting.

Comment #69: Daisy  on  12/07  at  02:17 PM

Wikilieaks needs to be bigger than one man.  What if the charges are true?  What if it ended up he raped a dozen women?  WHere would we be then if we put all of our eggs in defending Assange against these charges?  The two things need to be separated.  Everyone must keep their heads.  It can be done.  Like Amanda said, we can do this and be adults about it.
Comment #60: Daisy on 12/07 at 12:49 PM

Exactly perfect.

I work in IT in a position where the systems I support have to be available 24/7.  We used to have a structure where different people had different responsibilities.  If X was broken, “we need to call Smith, she’s the only one who knows how to fix it.” 

Except then Smith takes a buyout, gets hit by a bus or wins the lottery and we’re screwed.  We actively fight against having a single point of failure now, and while that’s hard to do in a lot of situations like Wikileaks where it’s a one-man kind of shop, it doesn’t mean it can’t be done.  Someone will always spring up to fill the shoes, or there’s no real movement, just a guy with a grudge.

Comment #70: oldfeminist  on  12/07  at  02:33 PM

This thread moves fast!

Ben D, and everyone else who thinks it’s totally impossible that Sweden would let the US tell it what to do, let me as a Swede tell you that you are actually completely wrong. We’ve been helping out in your bullshit war on terror for years, and we’re also letting you spy on us from the American embassy (illegal surveillance cameras). Here (http://svt.se/2.22620/1.2257703/bildt_har_begransad_politisk_formaga), for example, is a news item about some Wikileaks documents (from 2007), detailing how president Bush was advised to be sure to thank prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt for his cooperation in the war on terror, which according to the documents has to be kept on the downlow due to the internal political climate (they don’t quote the original English, but that’s the gist). There have been incidents of, for example, handing over people to oppressive governments even when they are likely to be tortured (that’s against the Geneva convention btw), just because the US asked us to. This has caused some scandals, but nothing major enough to stop them from doing it. Reinfeldt’s government, reelected this September, is very open to American influence. You seem to simply assume that you know how Swedish politics work. Why? I smell mansplaining…

Comment #71: phoenix  on  12/07  at  02:42 PM

Also we do NOT, repeat NOT, actually have a crime called “surprise sex”! I have no idea who made that up, but it’s absolutely not true. We do have a crime that’s basically a sexual misdemeanor, but that’s for, like, people who expose themselves. Right now I can’t find any updates on what he’s being accused for, but originally it was rape and sexual assault/coercion, if I recall correctly. Those carry prison sentences, not small fines.

Comment #72: phoenix  on  12/07  at  02:59 PM

Phoenix I’m conviced that the phrase “sex by surprise” was introduced into the conversation in order to make the whole thing into a big joke.  I have no idea who first started it, but it took off like wildfire in comments sections on any discussion of Assange.

Comment #73: Daisy  on  12/07  at  03:05 PM

(#72: accused of, grammar fail)

Also, I notice that national media has published almost no details of the accusations against him, and nothing about the victims. If I didn’t read international feminism blogs, I’d have no idea that there’s a huge international controversy about consenting to sex with condoms but not without. I’d guess our local misogynist blogosphere is all over it, though I’m not about to check, but at least there’s no victim-blaming going on in real media - for the moment.

The women’s lawyer, Claes Borgström, used to be “JämO” (“equality between the sexes ombudsman”, a pretty powerful anti-discrimination office). He’s really feminist, somewhat controversial, and all-around progressive. He’s stressed the severity of the crimes Assange is being accused of, and also said that the conspiracy theories surrounding these women are ridiculous. I think they are in good hands.

Comment #74: phoenix  on  12/07  at  03:24 PM

@phoenix

I’d find it difficult to believe because from what I can observe Sweden seems to be a country that traditionally prizes its neutrality. Ex. Sweden is not part of NATO, and it didn’t join the <Strike>Neue
Deutsche Mark</strike> Euro.

If the US could get European allies (never mind neutrals) to do what it wants just be demanding it, don’t you think there would have been widespread European involvement in the Iraq War instead of token forces from second tier countries, just to give one example?

Comment #75: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  03:24 PM

I read the accusations on MSNBC just now and there are more than I realized. Ex. he also allegedly raped her while she was sleeping.

Comment #76: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  03:38 PM

@BenD: Canada did not enter the Iraq War either and we pretty much always ask “how high?” if the USA asks us to jump. The Iraq War was just such a stupidly pointless proposition that even tight-knit allies refused to participate. Not really the best example you could pick.

Comment #77: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  03:43 PM

oldfeminist :

Someone will always spring up to fill the shoes, or there’s no real movement, just a guy with a grudge.

My worry is that Wikileaks will work fine without Assange, but it won’t work fine without a website, servers or money. Which is why I’m bothered to see all this emphasis on Assange (I don’t mean here specifically) as opposed to things like this : http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/06/wikileaks/index.html (visa has also blocked transfers)

As BlackBloc said the existing documents can survive on the Darknet whatever that is, but aside from not being available to the public, it won’t be available for future whistleblowers either. Or not as available.

Comment #78: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  03:59 PM

@Ben

So what do you actually know about Sweden except that we have a carefully cultivated reputation for being nice? You may find it “difficult to believe”, but you can babelfish that link I posted and read for yourself. It’s real. It’s causing a nice little scandal right now. The largest two of our four parties in government (a center-right alliance) are pushing for NATO membership. Before the election they talked quite a lot about joining the EMU as well, though I haven’t heard anything official about it in a while. A lot of major players have been calling for a new national-wide vote on EMU membership.

Comment #79: phoenix  on  12/07  at  04:00 PM

@BlackBloc

Canada does participate in Afghanistan though (and unlike most NATO countries, in front line comabt w/the US) and Sweden does not.

But A better example would be the various US-EU trade disputes where the EU (rightly, in most cases) tells us to go pound sand and there’s nothing we do about it except write strongly worded letters.

And if Assange had been arrested in Canada (didn’t Harper publicly say Assange should be assassinated?) I’d find the US plot theory way more believable.

Comment #80: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  04:02 PM

phoenix, does this sound about right to you? (from a Swedish blog)

[T]here is no such crime as “sex by surprise” in Sweden. Assange is charged for rape, sexual harassment and duress, and this is, what is called in Swedish legal terms, on “sannolika skäl;” a classification that means that the prosecutor has enough evidence to make her believe it is likely the verdict will be in her favour. There is fairly strong evidence, then, it is not charge pulled out of thin air. “Sex by surprise” or överraskningssex as it would be translated in Swedish is slang for rape. It is a term that is used when speaking about rape, but jokingly, or keeping it light, a word that brings with it positive connotations, which makes the word inappropriate in itself, but it is nevertheless synonymous with rape.

Comment #81: ema  on  12/07  at  04:45 PM

@Ben D. : All I know about Sweden I learned reading about the Pirate Bay trials and I haven’t followed that in a while, but at the time I gathered that what stood between them and the RIAA was Sweden’s judges, not its government.

Comment #82: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  04:47 PM

#32 Amanda

I’m sorry about your personal situation.

But still there is a prejudice about stereotyping certain creepy-looking people as potential rapists.  I also think it’s wrong to also stereotype “anarchist communists” and “anti-war demonstrators” in that same way about not respecting women.  It somewhat reminds me of painting Muslims as terrorists because a handful have done it.

Comment #83: Albert Cirrus  on  12/07  at  04:50 PM

Why do you think we’re not in Afghanistan? We are. It’s supposed to be a “peace-keeping” mission or something like that, but we do have soldiers in Afghanistan. I have to go make some pancakes now, but you really should stop acting like you know anything at all about Sweden or Swedish politics.

Comment #84: phoenix  on  12/07  at  04:52 PM

Assange is a curious figure—he was also involved in the big Climate"gate” dustup, so I’m not entirely convinced he’s all that selective about the information he puts out. But here’s the thing: if he’s guilty of sexual assault, he’s guilty, hero or not. (IIRC that was the entire point of the otherwise unremarkable movie Snake Eyes—Nic Cage’s character was a dirty cop who became a hero, but he was still dirty and wound up doing his time without a huge fight.) I’d like Assange to be innocent, but Amanda’s right—someone that cocky isn’t likely to be good with boundaries.

Comment #85: BrianX  on  12/07  at  04:54 PM

I’m probably not the first person to mention this in the thread (don’t have time to read all the comments right now), but one of the really big practical problems in this case seems to be that a disproportionate amount of the “reporting” of the “facts” seems to be nothing more than the media regurgitating statements made by Assange’s lawyers.

The whole idea that Assange wasn’t charged with rape, but rather with “sex by surprise,” seems to be nothing more than something that his lawyers said to the press.  His lawyers have also made statements like this one: “consent of both women to sex with Assange has been confirmed by prosecutors.”  That is a clear distortion of the allegations, which involve him ignoring withdrawals of initial consent.

Comment #86: sacundim  on  12/07  at  04:58 PM

Ben, how can you find “the diplomatic cables a bit anti-climactic” when less than 0.4% of them have been released?  (960 out of 251,287, according to the current WikiLeaks page.)  WikiLeaks is releasing them only as fast as their mainstream media “partners” are releasing and redacting them.

And, no, Stephen Harper hasn’t called for Assange to be murdered.  A (former?) advisor did.

Comment #87: Trackless  on  12/07  at  05:05 PM

#42: phylosopher

You are thinking of Scott Ritter.  It’s not unusual for sex allegations to be used as a weapon when someone steps over the line.  Hence my skepticism.

Comment #88: Albert Cirrus  on  12/07  at  05:08 PM

While I generally dislike Taki immensely, he does sceptically examine the sequence of events here.

Comment #89: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/07  at  05:10 PM

The whole idea that Assange wasn’t charged with rape, but rather with “sex by surprise,” seems to be nothing more than something that his lawyers said to the press.  His lawyers have also made statements like this one: “consent of both women to sex with Assange has been confirmed by prosecutors.” That is a clear distortion of the allegations, which involve him ignoring withdrawals of initial consent.

That is indeed shameful.

Comment #90: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  05:13 PM

I read the accusations on MSNBC just now and there are more than I realized. Ex. he also allegedly raped her while she was sleeping.

A $715 fine clearly doesn’t cover that kind of behaviour. It’s odd if they’re not charging him with rape based on these allegations (which include pinning a woman down while she says no).

The women’s lawyer, Claes Borgström, used to be “JämO” (“equality between the sexes ombudsman”, a pretty powerful anti-discrimination office). He’s really feminist, somewhat controversial, and all-around progressive.

Assuming Borgström’s not a prosecutor, how do these things work in Sweden? Does a complainant’s own attorney get to sit at the table along with the prosecutor in a criminal case?

I appreciate your input in this thread. You’d think the MSM would come up with experts on this stuff, but apparently not.

We do have a crime that’s basically a sexual misdemeanor, but that’s for, like, people who expose themselves.

Is it a mis-translation, perhaps? I can see how flashing might be clumsily translated as “sex by surprise.”

How a misdemeanour charge would apply to the allegations against Assange is something Prosecutor Ny should really explain—you put out a well-publicised international APB, you owe the international community an explanation of the charges. They’re really bungling this.

If the US could get European allies (never mind neutrals) to do what it wants just be demanding it, don’t you think there would have been widespread European involvement in the Iraq War instead of token forces from second tier countries, just to give one example?

There are other ways for the U.S. to get its way, without being a puppetmaster. For example…

From what I’ve read, Prosecutor Ny (acting in good faith) wants to make some sort of misdemeanour sex offence currently on the books applicable to a wider group of alleged offenders. We also have a complainant who seems to agree with her ideological goals.

Nothing necessarily wrong with that so far, but idealists often are the raw material for what Lenin called “useful idiots.” The U.S. establishment is looking for dirt against Assange, and they find this old case against him. After that, it’s one or two clubby calls to old colleagues from G20 meetings.

And before you know it, someone in the Swedish justice ministry tells Prosecutor Ny “hey, you know that sex case with Assange that was dropped down in Stockholm? We want you to re-open it and pursue it full-bore. We’ll back you up completely—Interpol red notes, the works.”

Prosecutor Ny’s not going to pass that up. She probably sees the high-profile case as a boon for her effort, but given that Assange is planning to fight it out it might backfire in a number of ways.

We actively fight against having a single point of failure now, and while that’s hard to do in a lot of situations like Wikileaks where it’s a one-man kind of shop, it doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

From what I’ve read, it isn’t a one-man shop. There’s been dissension within the org over whether it should hew closer to the wiki ideal by giving ordinary users more editorial power (as with Wikipedia), but there seems to be a geographically dispersed group of core editors and support staff who can go on in the absence of Assange.

Where Assange made an error was succumbing to the lure of celebrity and making himself the “face” of Wikileaks. Headless orgs, even ones working with the media, should not by definition have a face.

My worry is that Wikileaks will work fine without Assange, but it won’t work fine without a website, servers or money.

For all the personal attacks on and calls for assassination against Assange, here is the real shame that most can agree on: the U.S. government leaning on private ISPs, e-payment companies and banks domestic and overseas. I was talking about this with a client who’s basically a moneyCon , and even he’s disgusted—they may play the patriot card with the rubes, but the moneyCons really don’t like that sort of government interference (even the bailouts are only good if there are no strings attached).

Worse from a liberal/progressive POV, Droopy Dawg just started making noises on Faux about investigating the NYT for espionage.. I’d like to think that this would prompt the MSM to start examining the government’s repulsive behaviour, if only out of self-interest. But that’s like expecting the Dems to hew to their stated core values to get liberal and progressive votes—or indeed like expecting the Dems to welcome more transparency in democracies.

Comment #91: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  05:22 PM

@78: The Darknet is what people call the patchwork of parallel networks that are accessible via the Internet but not through the usual methods available to the average user. It’s sort of a parasitic outgrowth of the actual Internet.

For instance, to access Pandagon you would ask a DNS server for the IP of the hosting computer, and it would relay traffic through a bunch of nodes to your own computer.

Now some enterprising genius might connect a computer to the Internet and host a site on it but not give it a DNS entry (security through obscurity, rather basic) so you’d have to be in the know (have the actual IP address) to access it. Sort of like if you opened up your own computer to provide a service but only told your friends about it. But that’s very basic secrecy and once the secret is out then law enforcement can learn about it (say, if you’re running a child porn ring and the ‘wrong’ person learns about it and gives you up to the Feds). In real world term, imagine the difference between a shop with a permit and an address in the Yellow Pages, and some guy selling stuff off the back of his truck.

Another few steps above that would be to run something similar to TOR where your computer is registered as part of a peer-to-peer network and sets up a bit of room on your computer to host sensitive files, but it would be heavily encrypted, only parts of it would be on your node, those parts would have redundant copies elsewhere on the network, so that any access to the files would involve what looks like perfectly legitimate traffic to a few hundred machines run by anonymous users, any single machine being destroyed or taken out of the system wouldn’t disrupt the availability of the file, and so on.

Take a couple dozens or hundreds of these ad hoc parallel networks and that’s the Darknet.

Comment #92: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  05:23 PM

But polygraph machines should be banned, seriously.  They don’t work for shit.

Your masterful(mistressful?) summary of the situation has that combination of poetry and plain-spokeness that I’ve found in many native Texans.

Oh, they might help in an investigation if all your suspects are ‘dumb shits’ as my mother used to say, and believe in the polygraph, but they really should be left to history along with Lombroso’s theories about the inheritance of criminal traits.

Call me DA in the future, that’s less typing grin

Comment #93: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/07  at  05:26 PM

Why do you think we’re not in Afghanistan? We are.

Ok, you have a peace-keeping force of 500. Not exactly the same thing as what the UK or Canada is doing.

Ben, how can you find “the diplomatic cables a bit anti-climactic” when less than 0.4% of them have been released

I didn’t realize there were more to be released. The NYT and Guardian said he was planning to dump them all by this past Sunday.

Only surprises I’ve seen so far: Hillary Clinton has an obsession with spying on the UN and China is so fed up with North Korea they wouldn’t mind a Korea under the South even with an American military presence there.

The rest? Either suspected or already know. Ahmadenijad is a a borderline insane anti-semite. Chavez alienated even Lula. Berlusconi is a right-wing asshole. Putin is a mobster. The Gulf Arabs fund Al Qaeda will egging us on to attack Iran. Canada has a chip on it’s shoulder. The British Royals misbehave. China hacks US computers.

Yawn!

Comment #94: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  05:33 PM

I have to go make some pancakes now, but you really should stop acting like you know anything at all about Sweden or Swedish politics.

Never did claim to be an expert on them, it’s just that based on what I’ve been able to observe “US puppet” doesn’t come to mind when I think “Sweden”.

But, I guess Sweden is just a puppet that does what Washington wants.

Congratulations?

Comment #95: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  05:40 PM

Take a couple dozens or hundreds of these ad hoc parallel networks and that’s the Darknet.

Thank you. I’d read about the Darknet so it isn’t like I had no idea what it was, but I felt that just mentioning the Darknet with no qualifier would make it sound like I knew what I was talking about, which I definitely am not smile

Comment #96: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  05:44 PM

That is indeed shameful.

That is a defence attorney acting like a defence attorney. Distortion in zealous representation of their client is second nature to them. Before you challenge me, let me tell you a little something about Chewbacca...

The question is, why aren’t the Swedish prosecutors issuing a statement explaining the charges, which are a matter of public record? If he’s being charged with the equivalent of felony sexual assault, say it and be done. That they’re hemming and hawing in the face of a major international news story and letting stand the claim that this is a “sex by surprise” misdemeanour charge doesn’t bode well for an image of prosecutorial competence.

The MSM doesn’t seem motivated to ask that question, either, taking the word of Assange’s British attorney as gospel. That’s shameful as well.

Comment #97: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  05:46 PM

But still there is a prejudice about stereotyping certain creepy-looking people as potential rapists. 

I’m singling this out to point out how women are put in a double bind.  When we get raped, we are scolded for not taking precautions.

But if we take precautions, such as learning to read men and assess their characters, we are scolded as well. We should instead treat every man, no matter what signals he’s giving off, as completely trustworthy.  That way, when he rapes us, we can enjoy the scolding for being so stupid.

Whatever you do, you are wrong.  It’s the vagina field.  It makes all choices incorrect.

Comment #98: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/07  at  05:50 PM

But, I guess Sweden is just a puppet that does what Washington wants.

Ere-a yuoo soore-a thet yuoo’re-a nut theenking ebuoot a pooppet thet deed vhetefer Jeem Hensun und Frunk Ooz vunted?

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  05:51 PM

That is a defence attorney acting like a defence attorney. Distortion in zealous representation of their client is second nature to them.

I thought of bringing that up, but I figured that if distorting the truth in ways that perpetuate prejudice and oppression is in the nature of defense attorneys then that’s something wrong with the nature of defense attorneys and it wouldn’t make it less shameful.

That the MSN are reporting on something badly doesn’t surprise me much. I figure it’s only been 12hours, as the days go more information will become available.

Comment #100: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  05:53 PM

A big LOL@Gracchus 99.

Comment #101: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  05:55 PM

He turned himself into the police. There’s really no more Assange can do.

I will note that that’s more than US war criminals have done, since the US tried their hardest to make sure those cases didn’t go anywhere.

His accusers will get his day in court. That he turned himself in is a good thing, is it not?

Comment #102: Seebach  on  12/07  at  05:56 PM

Ben D, you’re being childish. You came into this thread, claiming that it was “beyond absurd” and “laughable” to believe that Sweden wouldn’t be completely neutral, and when I asked why you thought so, you said it was because you found it “difficult to believe”. I, an actual Swede (who tries to be politically aware, as well), have replied to you several times explaining how this is wrong, and you have mansplained back to me that this can’t be true, based on what you feel you know about Sweden (apparently nothing). Our government has been cooperating with the US for years. This Assange thing has happened between two major political scandals regarding exactly that, the first being illegal surveillance around the American embassy and the second being a Wikileak showing just how deep the rabbit hole goes - we’re far, far from neutral in your “war on terror”. And if you don’t believe we’ll take orders from the CIA, just ask Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_of_Ahmed_Agiza_and_Muhammad_al-Zery

Now please stop explaining to me what the current political climate in my native country is like.

Comment #103: phoenix  on  12/07  at  06:10 PM

The rest? Either suspected or already know.

You were not surprised by the detailed list of key infrastructure and resources vital to our national security?

Comment #104: ema  on  12/07  at  06:16 PM

From the Guardian’s Wikileaks liveblog :

Freedom of Speech - priceless. For everything else, there’s MasterCard.

@Ben D. : phoenix is right. I don’t get why you’re insisting on this anyway - your first post seems to indicate you agree that the US government had something to do with this (“If you intend to mess with the US government you’d better have a pristine past”, paraphrased), so… what point are you trying to make exactly ?

Comment #105: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  06:20 PM

By the way, Daisy talked about Assange being denied bail and I asked what this meant in the UK upthread. Afua Hirsch on the Guardian liveblog explains :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates

“Lawyers representing people suspected of rape – either for domestic or extraditable offences – try to secure a suspect’s freedom by offering conditions that would make prison custody unnecessary.

In Assange’s case, a surety of £180,000 – money placed in court that would be forfeited if Assagne absconded – was offered. The defence also said they were willing to consider further conditions, such as the requirement to remain at home during certain hours, or even to wear an electronic tag.

But the fact that Assange does not have a permanent address in the UK – he is currently staying with friends – made bail far more unlikely.
(...)
As in many extradition cases where a suspect is not based permanently in the UK, Riddle said there was a risk that Assange would fail to surrender were he released on bail. (...)”

So it turns out there may be some good faith in that respect at least. Or at least precedent.

Comment #106: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  06:28 PM

If people are lashing out against Assange’s accusers because of the accusations (and these links make it look like at least some people are stupid enough to do just that) then they’re assholes.  Plain and simple.

However, I’ve seen a lot more people view the accusations as a proxy attack designed to get Assange into custody indefinitely.  Accuse him of rape, because he can’t just wave that off as political.  Then arrest him and make him fight a long legal battle to prove his innocence.  Then level more legal charges against him - maybe on espionage, maybe on tax evasion, maybe on jaywalking, who cares - and keep him locked up.  Put him in Gitmo.

Given the aggressive action against Wikileaks - both legal and illegal - by the US Government, I think the odds are fairly good that the accusations are bogus, or at the very least greatly exaggerated.  Perhaps Assange really did sleep with these two women.  But what happened after that isn’t going to matter.  What’s going to matter is punishing Assange for crossing powerful people.

This has absolutely nothing to do with rape, and using rape allegations as a fig leaf to cover up the kind of government thuggery that would make George Orwell blanch is the central problem here.  The women who are central in persecuting Assange are either complicit in this government thuggery or victims themselves.  And that’s the question that keeps me from leveling judgement against either of them just yet (because if they got a fraction of the hammering Assange has taken, I wouldn’t completely blame them for carrying the nails to his crucifixion).

Either way, wielding rape charges as a weapon in an espionage case doesn’t do a lick of good for rape victims.  Just the opposite - it makes the rape charges look corrupt.  Just another cudgel to use in a political dispute.  Not to be taken seriously in and of themselves.

Comment #107: Zifnab25  on  12/07  at  06:29 PM

phoenix, if you’re saying Sweden is a really a banana republic that does whatever the US wants I guess I have no reason to doubt you.

Comment #108: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  06:30 PM

So let’s say everything is true and Assange is a dirty rapist and people defending him are exhibiting misogyny. It isn’t half as important as the war on free speech that’s going on at the moment.

Because a pervasive culture of rape and misogyny in no way negatively impacts freedom. For, oh, slightly more than half the world population. Not at all. (Y’know what’s a “war” on free speech? Fucking raping people all the damn time and calling them lying sluts if they open their mouths about it. It’s fucking ignoring and dismissing the words of more than half the world ‘cause someone stuck a dick in them once. But I guess one blond dude with an ego and a website is more important than that.)

More specific to this case, assuming the rape accusations are true (and I’ve not heard any compelling reason to think otherwise) what are people proposing the prosecutors do? Tell the accusers “ah gee, sorry ladies, I totally would pursue your case but your bodily integrity is gonna have to take a backseat to the very very srs bizness of dudes publicly embarrassing dudes going on here”? I’m not saying it’s so straightforward as your typical non-politicized rape case, but I’m freaking hating the “yeah yeah, rape’s bad, BUT...“ing going on too. Doesn’t do a lot of good to say “shush, women, we’re trying to protect free speech here!”

Comment #109: Bagelsan  on  12/07  at  06:33 PM

To everyone discussing Swedish rape laws: that thing about “surprise sex” is completely, totally made up. It’s not a mistranslation, it’s a lie or a sick joke (I disagree with that blogger that “surprise sex” is an established slang term, it’s just a thing an asshole might say). It’s not even a Swedish lie - no one here is claiming that Assange “surprise-sexed” someone. I don’t even think anyone, journalist or lawyer, is aware that some Brit or American or whatever is calling it “surprise sex” and talking about small fines. I haven’t followed this closely, but I’ve been googling like crazy for a couple of hours now, and every time an article mentions the charges against him they call it “rape” or “sexual assault/coercion” or using any other word for a serious sex crime, though there seems to be an unwillingness to use any strictly defined terms or go into any details about the case - I think the official charges haven’t been made yet. He’s being arrested due to suspicions, this is as far as I know not the same as making the official “We are prosecuting you now and this is why” statement. Anyway, the Swedish media is treating the accusations seriously.

Comment #110: phoenix  on  12/07  at  06:34 PM

phoenix, if you’re saying Sweden is a really a banana republic that does whatever the US wants I guess I have no reason to doubt you.

Does whatever the US says != banana republic
Sweden is a banana republic != what phoenix said
Sweden does whatever the US says != what phoenix said

Again, what’s your point ? If you’re claiming Sweden was completely uninfluenced by the US (and if you aren’t then why the argument ?) why did you say imply that Assange was getting arrested because he went against the US government ?

Comment #111: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  06:35 PM

@Caravelle—

That was referring to Interpol mysteriously giving this case such high priority. That probably had the hand of the US and other governments in it.

What I was saying is that the CIA didn’t command the Swedish government to trump up rape charges against Assange or some such thing.

Comment #112: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  06:35 PM

Let me put it this way:

If Assange had just been a normal computer geek, I believe he would have still been accused of rape in Sweden. This difference is, after fleeing to the UK, Interpol wouldn’t given NEARLY as much manpower or attention to finding him as they do since he crossed several governments.

Understand?

Comment #113: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  06:38 PM

Such strong, conflicting emotional reactions to the word “rape” on the part of people who would normally support Assange & Wikileaks.  But thanks to the scary word, they’re unwilling to defend him, or believe his claims of innocence.

Rape charges were probably selected as the “crime” by the various governments just to get Liberals arguing amongst ourselves, to hinder us protesting the extraordinarily convenient appearance of the type of crime we “Liberals” are known to abhor.

I bet they discussed child molestation charges for a while…or a hit & run on Assange’s part. Rape was decided on as the way to make his arrest more palatable to those of us who would otherwise protest it LOUDLY.

Comment #114: Kwillow  on  12/07  at  06:38 PM

It’s not a mistranslation, it’s a lie or a sick joke (I disagree with that blogger that “surprise sex” is an established slang term, it’s just a thing an asshole might say).

I don’t know about in Sweden, but “surprise sex” is an established rape joke in the USA. It’s definitely a way of making light of rape—but it sure isn’t used in actual serious (or legal) discussions of rape. It’s more like a sick joke, like you say, or a meme (for example, it might caption a photo of a very surprised/disturbed looking cat with another cat behind it…) And I’ve certainly heard it used in liberal circles, though it’s kind of a college kid thing I think.

Comment #115: Bagelsan  on  12/07  at  06:42 PM

Because a pervasive culture of rape and misogyny in no way negatively impacts freedom. For, oh, slightly more than half the world population. Not at all. (Y’know what’s a “war” on free speech? Fucking raping people all the damn time and calling them lying sluts if they open their mouths about it. It’s fucking ignoring and dismissing the words of more than half the world ‘cause someone stuck a dick in them once. But I guess one blond dude with an ego and a website is more important than that.)

Whatever. I’m actually gratified it took almost hundred comments before someone interpreted my post that way.

More specific to this case, assuming the rape accusations are true (and I’ve not heard any compelling reason to think otherwise) what are people proposing the prosecutors do? Tell the accusers “ah gee, sorry ladies, I totally would pursue your case but your bodily integrity is gonna have to take a backseat to the very very srs bizness of dudes publicly embarrassing dudes going on here”? I’m not saying it’s so straightforward as your typical non-politicized rape case, but I’m freaking hating the “yeah yeah, rape’s bad, BUT…“ing going on too. Doesn’t do a lot of good to say “shush, women, we’re trying to protect free speech here!”


I don’t know about “people”. I’m not proposing the prosecutors do anything other than prosecute this charge as fairly as the would normally do. What I am proposing is that people on the internet and the media talk less about Assange and more about the campaign against Wikileaks.

Comment #116: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  06:45 PM

Kwillow :

Such strong, conflicting emotional reactions to the word “rape” on the part of people who would normally support Assange & Wikileaks.  But thanks to the scary word, they’re unwilling to defend him, or believe his claims of innocence.

It’s not the scary word, sweetheart. It’s the despicable act the word refers to.

I bet they discussed child molestation charges for a while…or a hit & run on Assange’s part. Rape was decided on as the way to make his arrest more palatable to those of us who would otherwise protest it LOUDLY.

Yeah because child molestation we’d be fine with. I was going to laugh and then I suddenly wondered if you actually meant that.

Comment #117: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  06:52 PM

Claes Borgström, a human rights lawyer (who has also handled several other high-profile cases) who used to hold the position of (basically) being Sweden’s appointed feminist, and who is now the two women’s attorney, states his opinion here (this is from today), babelfish it or read my paraphrased transcript below http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/borgstrom-till-attack-mot-assange-1.1223302

Borgström says that Assange is lying when he says that the women are conspiring against him together with the US. He then goes on to say that that they are two everyday young women who admired Assange for his work, and they are now under huge pressure from all the media attention. He explains that many people think rape is a crime when a man jumps out from behind a bush and rapes a woman using brutal force, but that there are other ways to coerce people into sex, and they have happened to thousands of women. He finishes with saying that he wants Assange prosecuted, and the court will have to judge what kind of crime this is about (“which crimes we’re dealing with”, something like that).

So basically he seems to acknowledge that it’s not really clear what they will charge him with? But that he, being awesome, thinks it’s a serious crime even if it’s not “traditional” rape? That’s how I read it.

Comment #118: phoenix  on  12/07  at  06:59 PM

Because a pervasive culture of rape and misogyny in no way negatively impacts freedom.

You know, it’s funny.  Cause Saddam reserved a set of rooms specifically for sexually assaulting political dissidents.  The so-called “Rape Rooms”.  A beautiful intersection of free speech persecution and rape culture.

At the end of the day Assange isn’t on the hook for rape.  The case against Assange was only initiated after the first batch of leaks and initially dropped because it was so thin to begin with.  Even if Assange was a serial rapist murder, prosecuting him now won’t mean a damn thing for victims of rape.  On the contrary, the next time a government is deciding whether to institute a policy of sexual-abuse-as-state-sanctioned-punishment, it will have one fewer anarchist hacker to worry about leaking their existence.

This is the sort of shit you get, minus the Julian Assanges of the world.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3977702&page=1
“—Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR—”

Comment #119: Zifnab25  on  12/07  at  06:59 PM

Complete threadjack…

Elizabeth Edwards has just died, not even 24 hours after the announcement that her treatments were no longer working.

So sad.

Comment #120: DTGslu2K  on  12/07  at  07:01 PM

Its a frame up.

Comment #121: Kwillow  on  12/07  at  07:05 PM

What I don’t understand is why the CIA-feminist-illuminati didn’t just make up a charge that would be easier to stick? Why not just tell their minions to accuse Assange of date rape or murder? Since he was accused back in August, why didn’t our overlords arrest him BEFORE the dump?

I think it is obvious that these woman would have accused him of rape even if he was just some no name swedish dude. What happened is that Assange pissed off a bunch of very powerful people who then found away to get back at him after the fact. And instead of calling out the powerful douchebags who helped bring Assange down—interpol, Mastercard, the US and the myriad other governments Assange made a fool of—vast swaths of the left have chose to shit all over powerless rape victims. Really shows our true colors.

Comment #122: alysia  on  12/07  at  07:11 PM

Its a frame up.

Just because it’s a frame up doesn’t mean you didn’t do it.

Elizabeth Edwards has just died, not even 24 hours after the announcement that her treatments were no longer working.

:(

Comment #123: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  07:14 PM

I hope the Swedish judicial system is better than US judicial system, so Assange gets only the punishment for the specific crime of rape if he is found guilty in a fair trial. Both sides of this are going to get massive pressure put on them.

I’m glad to hear the accusers lawyer sounds credible, but I guess we’ll see what a nightmare this will become.

Comment #124: Seebach  on  12/07  at  07:16 PM

Just because it’s a frame up doesn’t mean you didn’t do it.

Right. See: OJ Simpson.

Comment #125: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  07:19 PM

#111: Caravelle
Come on. Sweden is even shaped like a banana! Case closed.

#113: Ben D. 
I don’t think he would be prosecuted at all if he’d just been a computer geek. He might not even have been arrested. Like every other country on earth we have a huge problem with rape going unreported, uninvestigated, unprosecuted (is that even a word?) and unconvicted (definitely not a word!). It’s estimated that only about 10% of rapes are reported to the police. Julian Assange is white and apparently middle-class and educated. The assaults weren’t violent, and it’s a “he said/she said” case. Had he not been internationally wanted and extremely famous, the police would just have dismissed the case due to lack of proof.

Comment #126: phoenix  on  12/07  at  07:21 PM

I don’t think he would be prosecuted at all if he’d just been a computer geek.

I know rape is often underreported so that was badly phrased. I should have said IF the rape was reported and IF they moved forward with the prosecution and he fled to the UK, I don’t think Interpol would have looked for him very hard.

Interpol is where the hand of the US government and others enters into this I think, not the original allegations. IOW the women accusing him aren’t secret CIA plants or being duped by the US government.

Comment #127: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  07:26 PM

And let me say being famous while being accused of a serious crime can have its “upsides” for the defendant too, though. It’s very much a double-edged sword.

Comment #128: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  07:31 PM

Fucking cancer.  And a hearty fuck you to John Edwards, too.  The stress he put her through surely didn’t help.

On Assange, fine, he’s a potential rapist and ignoring that fact is an insult to women.  Let him be prosecuted.  But you also can’t ignore that the timing of these charges is very very convenient to those who are trying to shut him up, not only because of the Iraq/Afghanistan and diplomatic cable leaks, but to deter future leakers as well.  That’s what this is all about.  You want to make it about rape, fine, but be aware that getting your pound of flesh comes at a price.  This could be Eliot Spitzer all over again.

Comment #129: liberalrob  on  12/07  at  07:32 PM

Amanda sez:
“C’mon can we do this acting like grownups thing?”

Zinfab in 119:
“Nope.”

Seriously, I’m capable of believing that 1.) Wikileaks is good 2.) It’s founder/media face could be a rapist 3.) The charges are getting pursued more vigorously than they would be if the possible rapist in question wasn’t sticking his finger into powerful eyes.

At the end of the day Assange isn’t on the hook for rape.  The case against Assange was only initiated after the first batch of leaks and initially dropped because it was so thin to begin with.  Even if Assange was a serial rapist murder, prosecuting him now won’t mean a damn thing for victims of rape.  On the contrary, the next time a government is deciding whether to institute a policy of sexual-abuse-as-state-sanctioned-punishment, it will have one fewer anarchist hacker to worry about leaking their existence.

Nobody is irreplaceable and Wikileaks can’t be just Assange. If he actually committed more than one sexual assault, that’s mostly on him no? A useful asshole is still an asshole.

Comment #130: witless chum  on  12/07  at  07:39 PM

It will actually be interesting to see a trial between The Patriarchy and The Shadow Government. Which is more powerful?

Comment #131: Seebach  on  12/07  at  07:47 PM

WikiLeaks is not Assange. He’s just the most visible spokesperson. The ironic part in all this is that even IF this is all a CIA frameup, it wouldn’t affect WikiLeaks’ ability to function one iota…

Now the persecution they’re seeing from the big corporate firms trying to deny people donating money or trying to deny hosting to WikiLeaks… that might actually drive it to the Darknet, and at that point only a handful of the already converted to the Church of Cryptoanarchy will get to see it.

Comment #132: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  07:55 PM

(I’m a non-practicing Cryptoanarchist myself. wink)

Comment #133: BlackBloc  on  12/07  at  07:57 PM

Now the persecution they’re seeing from the big corporate firms trying to deny people donating money or trying to deny hosting to Wikileaks… that might actually drive it to the Darknet

I found a nice summary of those at the Guardian by the way :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-under-attack-definitive-timeline

Comment #134: Caravelle  on  12/07  at  07:58 PM

#98 Amanda Marcotte

I distinguish “creepy-looking” from “creepy-acting.”  If someone is acting creepy, then it is normal to assume they might be trouble.  But it sounded like you were prejudging Julian on the company he keeps and statements like: “Relief to know, since unlike Julian Assange, it’s hard to picture Al Gore as some kind of rapist.”

Comment #135: Albert Cirrus  on  12/07  at  07:58 PM

I’m not accusing Assange of anything,

...but just let me relate this anecdote from my junior high school years about how one of my classmates was raped, in a way very similar to how Assange is alleged to have done it.

I don’t know if Julian Assange is guilty, of course,

...but let me just underscore what a type-A asshole he is and how common it has been in my experience that such assholes rape women.

Are we to assume that someone who clearly gets a rise out of making the most powerful nation on the planet scramble around in a chickens-with-heads-cut-off manner doesn’t have a tendency to ego trip?  Are we to assume someone who risks life and limb for this isn’t the kind of guy who might get smaller kicks out of smaller, less internationally interesting power trips?  Why are we to assume that?

Indeed!  In fact, why not assume just the opposite, that he’s in fact guilty as charged?  We have just as much actual evidence, plus we have all this anecdotal evidence and hearsay, and the unimpeachable testimony of the victim(s); clearly it’s easier to assume he’s guilty than that he might not be!  Why bother with all this rigamarole of assembling evidence and going to court and proving the charges beyond a reasonable doubt; he even looks like the kind of creepy guy who would do this!  What more evidence do we need?  Right?

-He’s a man, and men rape women
-He’s creepy-looking, and creepy-looking men rape women
-He’s an egotistical asshole, and creepy-looking men who are egotistical assholes rape women a lot
-A woman accused him of rape

Case closed!

Well, I sure hope you’re right.

Comment #136: liberalrob  on  12/07  at  07:59 PM

Nobody is irreplaceable and Wikileaks can’t be just Assange. If he actually committed more than one sexual assault, that’s mostly on him no?

Certainly, it looks like Wikileaks is getting along without Assange’s hand at the wheel.  That said, “If he actually committed more than one sexual assault” is a HUGE if, given the circumstances.  Senators - namely Joe Lieberman - have been aggressively pressuring businesses to stop printing the leaks.  Someone has launched an aggressive DDOS attack against his site and domain.  His criminal defense fund has been frozen at both Paypal and his Swiss bank account (... because Nazi cash and US tax cheats we’ll protect, but Assange…) and now even Visa and Mastercard are refusing to process transactions that lend Wikileaks support.  This is a monster of a move by both governments and private enterprise.

I know suggesting that rape allegations could have been faked is virtually anathema to this site’s very core, but this is one of those situations were rape allegations really, truly could have been faked.  To say the burden is on the defense here is a huge understatement.  It’s not like the CIA is above faking a little evidence, bribing a few judges, or just calling in an air strike on the dude’s house.

This is a country that continues to run a series of secret and not-so-secret prisons filled with uncharged, unaccused torture victims TO THIS DAY.  But, by all means, let’s assume Assange is guilty until proven innocent because that’s just how America operates these days.

Comment #137: Zifnab25  on  12/07  at  08:09 PM

Amanda, being a woman has nothing to do with whether you judge men for trustworthiness.  And I would state that if you only look towards men as the problem, that’s a serious deficiency in your defenses.

Of course, the caveat is that I’ve been harassed by more women than men - men don’t care if you fit their preconceptions of women, they’ll just ignore you if you don’t.  Women will get you kicked out of the office.  Do you know how humiliating it is?

Anyhow, I think catgirl @ #29 has it in the shorter.

PS, liberalrob, she’s not talking to you, she’s talking to those who would jump to his defense because how trumped-up the response is.  Your response is totally out of context from what Amanda said.

Comment #138: Crissa  on  12/07  at  08:18 PM

I’ve had condoms break and neither I nor my partner noticed it until after I withdrew. I stopped buying the polypropylene type after that pack was used up.

Why doesn’t Assange just pay $715 and have it done with?

Comment #139: pablo  on  12/07  at  08:27 PM

Rape charges were probably selected as the “crime” by the various governments just to get Liberals arguing amongst ourselves, to hinder us protesting the extraordinarily convenient appearance of the type of crime we “Liberals” are known to abhor.

Well, they couldn’t get to his computer - so there’s little chance of hardcore child porn suddenly appearing on it.  Remember Scott Ritter? Eliot Spitzer?

I dunno if he did it, if the women in question blew up something far less to “get revenge”, or whether it was a CIA sting.  Irritating as it is given my deep desire to go jumping in with uninformed opinions, we have to hold our opinion in suspension - we just don’t know.

It’s interesting that the people here most wedded to the “conspiracy” theory are men, especially those with a history of mansplaining, and the people most wedded to the “rapist” theory are women, especially those who seem to have a previous history of similiar abuse.  As always, we can’t seperate our interpretation of events from our own experiences, much as we might consider ourselves “objective”.

Comment #140: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/07  at  08:32 PM

Amanda went a little overboard as usual, but frankly after reading the idiot, Naomi Wolf, I think this defense was needed. 

But i still say that at the end of the day it comes down to this:

First, they peekd at all of his unmentionables.  IF they found something, you bet they used it. Whether it’s drugs or sex assault.  If they found nothing, next thing they do is make some shit up.

Which is this? 

Who the hell knows?  Anyone claiming they know, either way, is just being stubborn.  YOu don’t know this is a CIA setup anymore than someone else knows it isn’t.  We’ll likely never know.


Don’t turn the guy into Batman because in real life there are no heros.  Everyone has flaws.  If he is a a rapist that has nothing to do with the release of the documents.  And one guy cannot be the face of wikileaks.  So if you invest everything you have in him, and he turns out to be a rapist, where are you then?  You have to be able to keep separate thoughts in your mind and nothing is black and white, hero or villian. 

The End.

Comment #141: Daisy  on  12/07  at  08:46 PM

she’s not talking to you, she’s talking to those who would jump to his defense because how trumped-up the response is.  Your response is totally out of context from what Amanda said.

Totally out of context?  When fully 3 out of 5 paragraphs are devoted to explaining how plausible it is that Assange really is a rapist, with examples, and only in paragraph 4 (I don’t count the “Update” at the beginning) do we finally get a grudging admission that “I’m just annoyed at people’s black-and-white thinking—-believing that because they support Assange’s actions in this one case, that means that his motivations must be pure as the driven snow and he must generally be above reproach.”  Well thank you for that, for a while there I was worried you were trying to make a point about how common this kind of rape is and how Assange fits the profile.  Speaking of black-and-white thinking.  “Sex crimes are never actually taken this seriously—-we feminists wish!—-and I’m annoyed to see rape used in this way,” which indicates that Amanda has some doubts as well.  But that’s only one sentence out of the entire post, which is mostly taken up explaining how possible, maybe even likely, it is that Assange is guilty.

Maybe he is guilty.  Who knows, besides him and the victim(s)?  I see two things to watch for as this unfolds:  1) whether he actually stands trial in Sweden, 2) whether he is extradited, be it to the United States or anywhere else.  Because if he doesn’t stand trial, and/or he gets disappeared somewhere, we’ll know the game is up.

Comment #142: liberalrob  on  12/07  at  09:00 PM

I dunno if he did it, if the women in question blew up something far less to “get revenge”, or whether it was a CIA sting.

Maybe he did do it.  (He certainly fits the profile!)  But the fact that the charges were dropped, then miraculously reinstated after he became an inconvenient person, and suddenly he became Public Enemy #1 to boot, stinks to high heaven.  THAT’s what’s got me so worked up about this.  It’s just too much of a coincidence.  Yes rapists should be punished.  And yes his arguably noble efforts in other areas should not make any difference in his prosecution if he committed a crime.  Eliot Spitzer was guilty!  But I’m not just annoyed to see rape accusations used as a political tool to silence dissent, I’m angered to see it used this way.  I wish there were some way to punish the people responsible.  If Assange is guilty, throw away the key; but he shouldn’t be the only one going down.

As always, we can’t seperate our interpretation of events from our own experiences, much as we might consider ourselves “objective”.

QOTD.

Comment #143: liberalrob  on  12/07  at  09:21 PM

Just a pet peeve of mine: innocent until proven guilty is a legal term. It just means the burden of proof is on the prosecution in the courtroom. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a PERSONAL opinion on someone’s guilt/innocence! That’s something completely different.

Comment #144: Ben D.  on  12/07  at  09:24 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20101206/pl_dailycaller/leftistbloggerspointtociaconnectionsinassangerapecase_1

“Julian Assange’s chief accuser in Sweden has a significant history of work with anti-Castro groups, at least one of which is US funded and openly supported by a former CIA agent convicted in the mass murder of seventy three Cubans on an airliner he was involved in blowing up,” wrote FDL’s Kirk James Murphy on Saturday. The rest of his piece, much like the Counterpunch article it draws from, is dedicated to listing the many clandestine activities of Luis Posada Carriles, a man who Ardin allegedly knows from her work in Sweden and a visit to Cuba.

Nothing to see here folks.  Just one of those crazy co-inky-dinks.

Comment #145: Zifnab25  on  12/07  at  09:34 PM

Comment #97: Gracchus on 12/07 at 04:46 PM

The question is, why aren’t the Swedish prosecutors issuing a statement explaining the charges, which are a matter of public record? If he’s being charged with the equivalent of felony sexual assault, say it and be done. That they’re hemming and hawing in the face of a major international news story and letting stand the claim that this is a “sex by surprise” misdemeanour charge doesn’t bode well for an image of prosecutorial competence.

Um, they have made careful, measured statements at various points.  You’re not asking the important question: why is the media so uncritically regurgitating all the stuff Assange’s lawyers say?

Comment #115: Bagelsan on 12/07 at 05:42 PM

I don’t know about in Sweden, but “surprise sex” is an established rape joke in the USA. It’s definitely a way of making light of rape—but it sure isn’t used in actual serious (or legal) discussions of rape. It’s more like a sick joke, like you say, or a meme (for example, it might caption a photo of a very surprised/disturbed looking cat with another cat behind it…) And I’ve certainly heard it used in liberal circles, though it’s kind of a college kid thing I think.

I can second all of that, but let’s not lose track of the fact that one of Assange’s lawyers claimed that he was charged with “sex by surprise” and not rape.  I don’t know how that relates to the “surprise sex” meme.

I said this at #86, and I’ll reiterate it: the media have been loudly and copiously reprinting every single line of bullshit that Assange’s lawyers can come up with, and they’re being repeated unquestioningly.  Gracchus’s contributions to this thread, frankly, is a prime example.


Comment #121: Kwillow on 12/07 at 06:05 PM

Its a frame up.

And they picked one of the hardest crimes to prosecute and convict on, where the alleged victims are routinely vilified by the public?  Yeah, brilliant plot to frame him.  How exactly stupid do you think the conspirators are?  Like, to the degree of ten trillion, or a hundred trillion?

Comment #146: sacundim  on  12/07  at  09:42 PM

And they picked one of the hardest crimes to prosecute and convict on, where the alleged victims are routinely vilified by the public?

Only if you’re assuming the goal is to stick him in jail.  If the goal is to discredit him, the stink of “accusations of rape” do really really well.  Almost as good as kiddie-fiddling.

Comment #147: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/07  at  10:09 PM

Comment #147: Phoenician in a time of Romans on 12/07 at 09:09 PM

Only if you’re assuming the goal is to stick him in jail.  If the goal is to discredit him, the stink of “accusations of rape” do really really well.  Almost as good as kiddie-fiddling.

Yeah, because the public routinely believes those and shows great outpourings of sympathy for the accuser.  Oh, wait.

Comment #148: sacundim  on  12/07  at  10:12 PM

Um, they have made careful, measured statements at various points.

When you’re calling for international police forces to apprehend a high-profile foreign national and extradite him to your country, a clear and exact statement of what the charges are is called for, if not in the Interpol bulletin than in public once it hits the news. According to phoenix’s post, even the personal attorney for the two women, Mr. Borgström, has no idea what the legal charges are.

Suppose Saudi Arabia asked Interpol to put out a red note for “sex crimes” on an American celebrity who had visited and later dissed the Kingdom—would anyone find that acceptable?

I don’t blame Interpol, by the way—they’re required to issue these notes at the request of a member nation’s police force. Whichever Americans whispered in the ears of their Swedish counterparts about the desirability of re-opening the case no doubt took this into account.

copiously reprinting every single line of bullshit that Assange’s lawyers can come up with, and they’re being repeated unquestioningly.  Gracchus’s contributions to this thread, frankly, is a prime example.

Yeah, especially the part where I said:

The MSM doesn’t seem motivated to ask that question, either, taking the word of Assange’s British attorney as gospel. That’s shameful as well.

You tell ‘em! I did in fact ask the important question in almost exactly the same words you just used—about 50 comments back.

If the MSM were more aggressive in asking what the charges were, or the Swedish prosecutor more forthcoming about their nature (even going to the extreme of finding phoenix, apparently one of the few English-speaking Swedes on Earth, to provide a translation), it would have made it more difficult for Assange’s attorneys to do their job. As it is, they’ve run the PR show as surely as Johnnie Cochran ran Judge Ito’s courtroom.

Comment #149: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  10:12 PM

Catgirl: I’m not sure how good the houseguest analogy is. Or perhaps it’s good at getting people to understand the idea of withdrawal of consent. But it seems to me to get quickly tied up in almost exactly the same set of things that make some people freak out about prosecution of withdrawal-of-consent rape cases. Are you actually going to call the cops on that acquaintance who promised to behave and is instead drunkenly groping your other guests between bouts of throwing up out in the bathroom? Or the friend who needed a place to stay and is now in week six on your sofa? (And then of course there are the people who once you’ve invited them to a party, even if you’ve subsequently thrown them out, assume that they’re welcome anytime.)

Maybe it’s that when withdrawing consent from houseguests you usually have the luxury of time and other people who can be called in to help handle things firmly with police intervention. Or may it’s just a big whack of male privilege speaking here.

Comment #150: paul  on  12/07  at  10:19 PM

And they picked one of the hardest crimes to prosecute and convict on, where the alleged victims are routinely vilified by the public?

No kidding. Stupidest frame up ever. He’d probably get fewer defenders from a trumped up pot charge, let alone something like a murder or even terrorism charges. And if it’s a sort of unlikely/incompetent CIA conspiracy, that means that a good deal of the “it must be a conspiracy!” stuff hinges on the idea that the female accusers are lying, such as:

I dunno if he did it, if the women in question blew up something far less to “get revenge”, or whether it was a CIA sting.

Let’s narrow it down. The first one seems perfectly likely, as rape is really fucking common, the second is basically a misogynist myth (as false reports of rape are really fucking uncommon), and the last is kinda dumb. The CIA can’t do better than that? Hell, the last two options are fairly unlikely and the first option is fairly likely for the same reason ie. no one actually gives a shit about rape.

Long story short, I don’t think there’s any reason to think the rape charges are untrue, at least not more than any other rape charges. The CIA can do better than that. Hell, a woman with a grudge could do a better frame up than that. (Or wait, maybe that’s what they want us to think—!!?)

Comment #151: Bagelsan  on  12/07  at  10:47 PM

Paul, yes the rude houseguest can be dealt with over time at the party, with friends escorting him or her out, or yes with the cops if things get weird.

With sex obviously there aren’t usually friends around helping to monitor the behavior of the person who is continuing to “party” inside the hostess.  So what’s a hostess to do? Just let the fella continue to thrust away after she’s withdrawn consent? She can’t well cause a pause to happen, the fella won’t stop. Perhaps not a perfect analogy, but still a strong one and one to get people thinking about why a house is more sacrosanct than a body.

Comment #152: JulesAboutTown  on  12/07  at  10:51 PM

You’re not asking the important question: why is the media so uncritically regurgitating all the stuff Assange’s lawyers say?

Because they always do that.  You might as well ask why you can scare the cat.

Comment #153: Crissa  on  12/07  at  11:30 PM

Long story short, I don’t think there’s any reason to think the rape charges are untrue, at least not more than any other rape charges.

I would agree, and go so far as to call three of them rape charges even if the Swedish prosecutor’s office won’t (or if the translation doesn’t allow—perhaps phoenix can enlighten us). From the Guardian:

Gemma Lindfield, for the Swedish prosecutors, said the first involved complainant A, who said she was the victim of “unlawful coercion” on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

The second charge alleged Assange “sexually molested” Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her “express wish” one should be used.

The third charge claimed Assange “deliberately molested” Miss A on 18 August “in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity”. The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on 17 August without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

If the prosecutor’s office had made these felony-level charges clear when the Interpol bulletin was sent or earlier, Assange’s lawyer’s statement about “sex by surprise” and misdemeanour fines (assuming that he wouls be stupid enough to make it in that situation, which isn’t the case) would have been dismissed and challenged immediately by even the most slavish press stenographer. As it was the statements as to charges up to this point matched the lack of substance still embodied in charge three, above.

I have no doubt about the sincerity of the complainants. I have no doubt that the prosecutor wants to see some sort of justice done for them, on the basis of an enlightened view of what constitutes non-consensual sex.

I also have no doubt that the prosecutor was encouraged to re-open a shaky “he-said/she-said” case at this time by higher-ups, who were in turn encouraged to do so by Americans who are upset with Assange. This isn’t about CIA conspiracies and manufactured evidence, this is about the American government doing opposition research and taking the opportunity to drag an apparent skeleton (any ugly one would do) out of Assange’s closet.

Comment #154: Gracchus.  on  12/07  at  11:42 PM

I distinguish “creepy-looking” from “creepy-acting.” If someone is acting creepy, then it is normal to assume they might be trouble.  But it sounded like you were prejudging Julian on the company he keeps and statements like: “Relief to know, since unlike Julian Assange, it’s hard to picture Al Gore as some kind of rapist.”
Comment #135: Albert Cirrus on 12/07 at 06:58 PM

If I said I couldn’t picture Richard Nixon looking comfortable with a Black person in the room, it wouldn’t be because he has a particular face shape or dresses a particular way. Don’t focus on a ridiculously static and two-dimensional interpretation of the word “picture.”

And why are you questioning women’s right to make any judgment of men based on their looks and actions?  Do they need to have two witnesses and a lawyer?  It is perfectly within my rights to think someone’s creepy.  The risks I run if I guess too generously are dire.

Comment #155: oldfeminist  on  12/07  at  11:47 PM

Why do the accusers need to be lying for the charges to not be part of a CIA plot?

Comment #156: Crissa  on  12/08  at  12:08 AM

Here’s an article in the NYT about Sweden’s rape laws. Interesting stuff on what happens in a society where the Patriarchy is weakened. Relevant to the discussion of charges:

If Sweden’s current criminal code is not much stricter on sexual offenses than those of other European countries, the Swedish laws may be more nuanced, by differentiating among three categories of rape and, unusually, invoking the concept of “unlawful coercion.”

There is a category identified as “severe rape,” which involves a high degree of violence and which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison for the perpetrator; another known as “regular rape,” which may involve some violence and calls for a maximum sentence of six years; and a third called “less severe rape,” which may not involve violence but still includes the imposition of sexual intercourse on a person against her will.

According to the Guardian article, Assange is not charged in any of the categories of rape described above, but instead with “sexual coercion” as described in this Interpol summary:

A person committing sexual coercion (sexual act forced by unlawful coercion that is not considered as rape) can be sentenced to imprisonment for at most two years. If the crime is considered as aggravated sexual coercion the offender can be sentenced to imprisonment for at least six months and at most four years.

There are also charges of “sexual molestation” mentioned in the Guardian article, but since this term in Swedish law refers to a crime committed against a minor, it was probably a mis-translation on the part of the prosecutor. It might also refer to a breach of the peace, e.g. refusing to leave the complainant’s property, but that’s not a sex-specific charge.

Bottom line: we’re definitely not talking about misdemeanours that’ll be resolved with $715 fines. They may not be considered legal rape, but these charges none-the-less may result in time in the slammer.

Comment #157: Gracchus.  on  12/08  at  12:10 AM

I dunno if he did it, if the women in question blew up something far less to “get revenge”, or whether it was a CIA sting.

Let’s narrow it down. The first one seems perfectly likely, as rape is really fucking common, the second is basically a misogynist myth (as false reports of rape are really fucking uncommon),

A statistical generalisation doesn’t apply when examining the circumstances of a particular case; at best, it can only inform.  Have you read up on the details of the on-again, off-again rape charges? (Forget Taki’s generally stupid editorial comments; look at the sequence of events he highlights)

and the last is kinda dumb. The CIA can’t do better than that?

It’s working quite well, isn’t it?  It’s tying him up in legal knots, discrediting the organisation he is associated with, and sending a clear message to any other would-be leakers.  Define “better” - should this be a smear, it seems to be more effective in its own way than Putin’s recent hijinks with polonium.

I can’t come to any conclusion one way or another from this - it’s not so much that we don’t know enough, but that what we do think we know is so easily twisted by agendas.

I have come to the conclusion that it would be wise to keep one’s dick well and truly zipped while visiting Sweden, though, should one be so engendered.

Comment #158: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  12:31 AM

I have come to the conclusion that it would be wise to keep one’s dick well and truly zipped while visiting Sweden, though, should one be so engendered.

I have come to the conclusion that it’s a little terrible hearing someone say that the strictness of a country’s rape laws is the reason they keep their dick to themselves… smile

But snarky smears to your character aside, yes, I am merely using statistics to inform my opinion. It’s certainly not sufficient to convict, but it’s sufficient to cast “he raped at least one woman” as my personal null hypothesis, with the “no, it’s a conspiracy!” crowd having the burden of convincing me otherwise. Saying that the rape charges are purely invented by the CIA is, in my opinion, a more extraordinary claim than the possibility that a rapist also started a <strike>self-</strike>important website. (And that the CIA is very happy about the rapist part, sure, I believe that too. It’s totally irrelevant when evaluating whether rape(s) occurred though, imho.)

Comment #159: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  01:02 AM

Just followed your link—which, ps, fuck you very much for subjecting me to that; whoever wrote that needs to die in a fire good lord :p—and I still don’t buy that the accusers acted suspiciously. In fact, minus the editorializing (and without the editorializing there isn’t much there) the consensus really does appear to be that a rape occured.

The piece included this quote from one of the accusers:

“In both cases, what started out as voluntary sex subsequently developed into an assault. The other woman wanted to report rape. [The] responsibility for what happened to me and the other girl lies with a man who has a twisted attitude to women and a problem with taking ‘no’ for an answer.”

And the post’s “author” refuted this position thus:

Online accounts vary wildly about exactly what was alleged to have happened with Assange, the girls, and the condoms: Some say he gruffly ignored their requests to use condoms; others say he intermittently used them; others say the rubber gloves broke during sex but that he continued; yet others say he purposely and inscrutably poked holes in the jizzbags and continued happily pumpin’ along anyway.
...
Did you catch that? For both girls it was consensual, but suddenly it wasn’t consensual, but he wasn’t violent, but then again he wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer, but neither of them are afraid of him, anyway, even though he’s twisted.
...
Somehow, what happened doesn’t quite sound like “rape” to me, at least as I’ve been led to understand the term in America.

Yeah, that’s an airtight defense right there. :p “Okay, so it sounds like the guy kept going when he was told to stop, just like the accusation states… but come on, that’s not, like, rape because bitches is crazy is why!”

Comment #160: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  01:24 AM

According to this link, interpol has made 3000 red notices this year, with 146 of them related to sex trafficking.

http://www.interpol.int/public/News/2007/3000Notices20071214.asp

Comment #161: Indy  on  12/08  at  02:47 AM

@ catgirl at #31

If you leave your doors hanging wide open with an aromatic buffet and a comfy couch, that doesn’t mean that any person can just walk in because they’re tempted.

The problem is, the kind of person you’d have to use this analogy with would probably turn right around and claim that you were just asking to robbed. I mean, come on, you let just any old person come into your house, what’s the problem with just one more even if he wasn’t invited? And you left your door unlocked, so it’s not like you’re concerned about your safety or anything. Obviously, you should always lock your doors and never, ever let anyone inside your home or else you’re begging to be robbed. If you were really concerned about your safety, you would have a big, strong man to protect you and your house from miscreants. Or, failing that, a big dog, a handgun, and/or a can of Mace with which to fend off the robber you practically invited in.

And the sad part is, I know people who will make that argument and absolutely believe every word of it and never consider, even for a moment, that this might make them horrible people.

Comment #162: Sea-Saw  on  12/08  at  03:28 AM

“I didn’t realize there were more to be released.”

Ben, if you don’t realize that not all cables have been released, then you’ve never looked at the WikiLeaks “cablegate” pages, which suggests that you (like the rest of us) not only can’t comment on the unreleased cables, but are also in no position to summarize the tiny fraction of cables that have been released.  There’s a lot more in (even) that tiny fraction of cables than in your attempt at a summary, but if you’re not curious enough to look for yourself, that’s not my problem.

Comment #163: Trackless  on  12/08  at  06:38 AM

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/valdtakt-som-kan-ge-fyra-ars-fangelse-uppfyller-kraven-for-overlamnande-1.1223659
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/usa-vill-se-assange-utlamnad-1.1223589

These were published a couple of hours ago. The first says that Julian Assange is suspected of “less severe rape”, which could render him up to four years in prison. That means that Sweden can request that Britain hands him over for investigation. A court will have to formally decide to grant that request (or not), but that’s not the same as proving him guilty, it just means that he will be sent to Sweden to be tried for rape. If they decide that Assange should be extradited, he can appeal and possibly drag this process out for months.

If the US wants him, they will have to define which crimes he’s supposed to have committed, and they must be illegal in Sweden as well, and carry a minimum sentence of one year in prison. If the speculations that he’ll be charged with treason or espionage are true, that would probably do it. But he can’t be extradited to the US while the Swedish rape investigation is going. The second article quotes The Independent, claiming that the US has requested informally that Assange is extradited. However, our minister of foreign affairs, Carl Bildt, denies this. Claes Borgström tells the press that he thinks the chance of Assange going to court for rape is “more than fifty-fifty”.

Comment #164: phoenix  on  12/08  at  10:04 AM

The first says that Julian Assange is suspected of “less severe rape”, which could render him up to four years in prison

Thanks again for the info and clarification. Perhaps the phrase “molestation” mentioned in the Guardian article at #154 was a mis-translation of “less severe rape.” Also, misunderstanding of non-rape “sexual coercion” seems to be the source of confusion (deliberate or genuine) over the idea of “misdemeanour sexual assault,” which as you noted really doesn’t exist in Swedish law.

If the US wants him, they will have to define which crimes he’s supposed to have committed, and they must be illegal in Sweden as well, and carry a minimum sentence of one year in prison. If the speculations that he’ll be charged with treason or espionage are true, that would probably do it.

For Assange, it would have to be espionage, since he’s not a U.S. citizen. Since Joementum is squawking about investigating the NYT for that same offence, that’s probably how the U.S. will approach anything Wikileaks-related. If successful, these prosecutions would essentially destroy investigative journalism and whistleblowing in the U.S., of course, but for anti-free-speech corporate toadies like Lieberman that’s a feature and not a bug.

How likely do you think it is that the Swedish government would accept this twisted definition of “espionage”?

fuck you very much for subjecting me to that; whoever wrote that needs to die in a fire good lord

Oh, that’s just Taki. He’s the sort of fellow who to this day heaps praise on the Nazi officer billeted with his family during the occupation of Greece because, hey, the man was an aristocrat (like himself, dontchaknow?).

Taki embodies the concept of privilege to a level that would seem like parody if he wasn’t completely sincere in his feudal outlook.

Comment #165: Gracchus.  on  12/08  at  10:42 AM

Thank you phoenix for posting updates on the situation. I quoted you on Balloon Juice I hope that’s all right with you.

Comment #166: Caravelle  on  12/08  at  02:57 PM

Jeebus Crass. They’re going to go after the NYT for *espionnage*?

I thought the USA devolution into fascism would at least wait for the next GOP mandate.

Comment #167: BlackBloc  on  12/08  at  03:51 PM

Taki embodies the concept of privilege to a level that would seem like parody if he wasn’t completely sincere in his feudal outlook.

IMHO, he totters on the thin line between parody and seriousness about his viewpoint.  He may sorta stray over the edge when he thinks he isn’t getting enough hate mail.

Comment #168: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  08:48 PM

Just followed your link—which, ps, fuck you very much for subjecting me to that; whoever wrote that needs to die in a fire good lord raspberry—and I still don’t buy that the accusers acted suspiciously.

After Ardin arrived back home on Friday the 13th, she and Assange went out for dinner, then returned to her apartment for some hot, naked, Aussie-on-Swede action.

The following day, Assange delivered a 90-minute speech about how war’s first casualty is truth. If Ardin was upset by the previous night’s (and that morning’s—woof-woof, Julian!) sexual liaisons, she hid it well. Appearing reasonably untraumatized, Ardin can be seen sitting stage right at about 0:10 of this video. Only ten feet in front of her, facing the stage with blonde hair and a pink sweater, sat Sofia Wilen, her eventual co-accuser against Assange.
[...]
Wilen says she tried calling him on the 15th but his phone was turned off. Assange and Wilen met up on Monday the 16th, and she paid for both train tickets back to her apartment in Enköping. She’d later complain that during the train ride, “He paid more attention to the computer than to me….The passion and attraction seemed to have disappeared.” Still, Assange mounted her that evening and—way to go, Bro!—again in the morning, apparently condomless that time. Wilen was so devastated, she went out to buy food, cooked him a sizzlin’-hot breakfast, and joked while they were eating that he may have made her pregnant. She bought his return ticket to Stockholm, asked him to call, he said he would, but he never did. He even screened her incoming calls—always a big mistake with any one-night stand in a foreign country.

By the 18th or 19th Wilen had grown frustrated that Assange wasn’t returning her calls, so she phoned that nice organizer lady she met at the seminar—Anna Ardin— inquiring about Assange’s whereabouts.

As the conversation took the sort of turns that conversations between ladies usually take, both Ardin and Wilen realized they’d both had sex with their Hacker Heartthrob during the previous week

It should be stressed there that, quite apart from his dickheaded comments, Taki is getting his sequence from the British tabloid press (cue significant eyebrow-waggling). But are you saying that those bits don’t at least make you wonder?

This remains a case for the courts and court testimony, assuming Assange doesn’t “accidentally” stumble in front of a bus or fall down stairs or forcefully back himself onto a sharp comb handle 47 times, now that he’s been tied down to one place.

Comment #169: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  08:59 PM

So (assuming none of these events are just bald-faced lies, which is still totally possible) she had sex with him at least once, continued to be around him afterwards for a while, and mentioned the possibility of pregnancy/that there was no condom used. She then tried to contact him later and after talking to another woman (who apparently also had unprotected sex with the guy) they both filed charges.

‘Cause like I said earlier, without the colorful commentary there isn’t much there. Take this bit:

Still, Assange mounted her that evening and—way to go, Bro!—again in the morning, apparently condomless that time. Wilen was so devastated, she went out to buy food, cooked him a sizzlin’-hot breakfast, and joked while they were eating that he may have made her pregnant.

Pared down to the facts (without the bro-fiving and the extremely loose interpretations) all it says it that the two of them had sex and afterwards she made breakfast (which rape victims do every day for their attackers, so no real indication how she felt from that) and verbally alluded to a possible pregnancy (all this really does is confirm that there was no condom used at least one time.) None of that really tilts it for or against there having been coercion during the sex act(s), it just claims that she was not acting upset. But just because there was no rending of clothes and weeping doesn’t mean no rape took place.

If you look at the timeline, there seems to be:

sex - sex - conference/hanging out - sex - attempted affection on the train - condomless sex - he leaves - she tries to contact him - she talks to another woman - charges filed

It could very well be that she was fucking head over heels for the guy the entire first 90% of this, and then he picked their last sex act to mess with her (if he’s leaving soon after, that’s the perfect time to cross the line, right?) and then it took her a while to nerve herself up to press charges. I’m not saying that’s what happened, obviously, but my story fits the scanty facts just as well as a story with no rape in it.

Comment #170: Bagelsan  on  12/08  at  09:46 PM

Still, Assange mounted her that evening and—way to go, Bro!—again in the morning, apparently condomless that time. Wilen was so devastated, she went out to buy food, cooked him a sizzlin’-hot breakfast, and joked while they were eating that he may have made her pregnant. [my emphasis]

Yeah, I know that this is an unreliable re-report of a set of allegations that have been reported very unreliably, but that bolded bit is one hell of a succinct nugget of creepiness: “Haha, I may have impregnated you against your will.”

Comment #171: sacundim  on  12/08  at  10:22 PM

Except, sacundim, the comment was (supposedly) made by Wilen, not Assange.

If you look at the timeline, there seems to be:

sex - sex - conference/hanging out - sex - attempted affection on the train - condomless sex - he leaves - she tries to contact him - she talks to another woman - charges filed

There are 2 women - woman 1 is rumoured (note, tabloids again) to be a bit of a nut on sexual harassment charges and to have blogged about ‘seeking revenge” before meeting Assange.

Sex (woman 1) - Sex (woman 1)(*) - conference/hanging out - flirting (woman 2) - party and tweeting (woman 1) - attempted affection on the train (woman 2) - sex (woman 2) - condomless sex (woman 2)(*) - joking about said sex and buying him train ticket (woman 2) - tries to contact him (woman 2) - woman 1 and woman 2 compare notes - charges filed.

The astrisked bits are, AFAICanTell, the offending acts.

There’s another timeline here, thankfully without Taki’s remarks.

Comment #172: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/08  at  10:37 PM

OMG!I cant believe if convicted for rape and molestation he would only get up to 2 years in jail! Move to Sweden if you want to be a criminal folks!

Comment #173: BeanS  on  12/08  at  11:53 PM

#9 It wasnt that Al Gore was found not guilty its that there wasnt enough evidence to bring to the trial. She often didnt want to work with the police because she didnt want to become a public spectacle and have her life put out in the open. I think you bring your unwarranted biases here (ie, Al Gore didnt do it because he’s a lefty hero). Mother Jones did an article on Assange and he has a criminal record even before starting wikileaks. He uses his hacker abilities to take down sites as punishment for not cooperating with him (like visa.com). He has also penned homophobic rap songs (suck very bad). From what I’ve read, I think he totally did it.

Comment #174: BeanS  on  12/09  at  12:13 AM

Yes #19 that makes him a rapist if he refuses to stop when she says no even if she consented ahead of time. Consent isnt renting her body as property for a short amount of time and using it in ways that are against the persons will.

I also have to agree with some of the commenters whove expressed amazement at the proliferty of condoms breaking or sliding off. Again, I have not had that happen and cant understand how a condom could slide off during sex (unless you use lube on the penis and then put the condom on).

Comment #175: BeanS  on  12/09  at  12:41 AM

The problem in this particular case is that the accusations are very politically convenient for the US, and the US has been engaging in other dirty tactics to shut down WikiLeaks: launching hacker-style cyber-attacks against its websites, pressuring Internet hosts and banks, and screeching that disclosures that have merely embarrassed them and exposed their own misdeeds as some sort of criminal or terrorist enterprise. 

So the idea this is a frame-up is within the realm of reasonable possibility, and it is an issue separate from taking rape claims seriously.

Comment #176: Luke  on  12/09  at  01:38 AM

The accuser with the CIA anti-Castro ties put me over the top.  What are the chances of running into someone like that in Sweden of all places?  I’m almost ready to move this from skepticism to calling bullshit.

Comment #177: Albert Cirrus  on  12/09  at  11:12 AM

I think I might go ahead and put this in my Power Point presentation of successful psy-ops.

Comment #178: norbizness  on  12/09  at  11:21 AM

Everyone should be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Even rape victims. Even if they are feminists. Let’s not assume they are lying crazy man-hating sluts or CIA plants unless there’s an actual reason to believe that. And, no, simply saying Assange may be a rapist is not a sufficient reason. Also, don’t believe every rumour you hear about someone who took the risk of accusing one of the world’s most respected men of the world’s least respected crime.

Comment #179: phoenix  on  12/09  at  11:44 AM

Again, I must point out that if we treated rape seriously even when the accused aren’t people that are embarrassing the U.S. government, rape would probably be far smaller of a problem.

Not to deny that the U.S. government has long arms, but let’s not automatcially assume that Interpol and various foreign governments are all hopping to our tune.  Take another look at those Wikileaks docs.  Julian pissed off half the governments on the planet.  Just as one example, how happy do you think that the King of Saudi Arabia is having his request to the U.S. government to bomb Iran exposed to the world - and especially to Shiite minorities in his country and his neighbors and Shiite majorities in Iraq?  And he’s got far fewer constraints on doing something about it than President Obama does.

I’m thinking there’s a whole lot of people who’d like to kill this guy, especially since they can assume that the U.S. will be blamed for it.

The reactions overall are pretty interesting.  I remember during the Duke rape case lots of people saying “If a woman says she’s been raped, believe her.” - including plenty of people here.  Of course, those were white college football players, not a leftist hero, so I guess the same standards don’t apply.  Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton could tell you all about that, though.

Comment #180: RonF  on  12/09  at  03:24 PM

“We can be grown-ups here.  We can entertain the idea that Wikileaks is performing a valuable service while acknowledging the strong possibility that Julian Assange is himself an asshole who treats women like they’re objects he can exert his massive power issues on. “

That’s kind of in question. You’re arguing that the fact that Julian Assange is willing to help provide that “valuable service” makes him the kind of evil guy who is likely to rape women, as are a number of comments on this post and on other websites. If anything, that’s the precise opposite of entertaining the idea that Wikileaks is providing a valuable service.

Comment #181: makomk  on  12/09  at  07:03 PM

Interesting, regarding “there is fairly strong evidence, then, it is not charge pulled out of thin air. “Sex by surprise” or överraskningssex as it would be translated in Swedish is slang for rape. It is a term that is used when speaking about rape, but jokingly, or keeping it light, a word that brings with it positive connotations, which makes the word inappropriate in itself, but it is nevertheless synonymous with rape.”

I suspected it might have been a dodgy translation somewhere. Apparently, the prosecutors should’ve given his lawyers details of the charges against him in English, but said lawyers seem to have had difficulty getting any actual information at all. A lot of the time they seem to be finding out about stuff first through leaks to the press (which are legally questionable in themselves, but there you go).

Comment #182: makomk  on  12/09  at  07:20 PM

gracchus,
How in the world is that an example of when the patriarchy is weakened? The maximum is only 10 years for violent rape-in a swedish prison!In America you get longer especially for a violent rape. Also it is a somewhat offensive system of rape “categorizing” that is not at all sophistocated. Its even what Warren Farrell calls for in his book, “The Myth of Male Power.” I think their rape laws are actually backwards.

Comment #183: BeanS  on  12/09  at  07:40 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.