Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: National Organization for Marriage Snail Mail DOMA FAIL Previous entry: Cleveland Young Republican teabagger - the stupid, it burns

Creepy contest: Alec Baldwin vs. Caitlin Flanagan

It’s really a toss-up between these two, who have been thrown together because Flanagan was asked to review Alec Baldwin’s new book “Bitches Ain’t Shit”.  Sorry the title is “A Promise to Ourselves “.  I have no doubt that Flanagan was assigned because her editors assumed that she would be behind what appears to be a typical MRA screed that’s just been elevated because of Baldwin’s fame, but a funny thing happens when even the most anti-feminist of women, should they have a single brain cell rattling around in their heads, confronts the seething misogyny of MRAs that is only barely disguised by an obsessive detailing of court interactions that make them sound at times more like they’re recounting sports statistics than compiling evidence for their bullshit case of why women need to roll over and take their shit.  Flanagan isn’t the sharpest pencil, but she is a grade B moron, unlike the grade A-ers like Dr. Helen, who fall over themselves defending men’s inalienable right to be abusive pricks, if they so desire. And while Flanagan tries to believe that Baldwin was done wrong by the court system, she can’t ignore the fact that he acted like a massive, entitled asshole, and his problems with his daughter are his fault, not his ex-wife’s.  So she actually calls him out.

Standing on the street, once again confronted by life’s inability to meet him halfway with his simple desire to be the center of the universe, he snapped. He raved at the child in the ugliest language imaginable, threatening her and calling her terrible names.

Hee.  But worry not, Flanagan’s momentary bout with sanity will soon abate into a frenzy of fundamentalist-inspired hoo-ha.  Which is why I bring to you this question.  Who’s the bigger creep in this article?  Baldwin or Flanagan?

For contestant #1, we have Alec Baldwin, Men’s Rights Activist.  According to even Flanagan, who is predisposed to be overly generous to men while mean and ungenerous to women, Baldwin is a sexist monster.  (Not that Flanagan has any love for Kim Basinger, who she sees as monstrously unfeminine, due to Basinger’s possession of strength and a will.*)  The marriage started off on a sexist foot, with Baldwin making a commitment to Basinger after she’d been taken down a few notches by the court battle, and he could be the richer, more dominant person in the marriage.

The lawsuit was protracted and ugly, and it stirred in Baldwin a sense of protectiveness, changing their relationship’s fundamental dynamic: “The woman who was wealthier and more famous than I was when I met her in 1990 was now bankrupt.”


They had a daughter, and Baldwin snapped into the role of daddy-as-owner of the little girl, while mentally shifting Basinger from the category “lover” to “mother”.  Unsurprisingly, the marriage is doomed, probably in no small part to these factors.  Baldwin, like pretty much every other MRA out there, gets completely discombobulated by divorce, because all of a sudden he cannot control his wife’s every move as easily as he could before.  The child becomes a major point of contention, because she’s his legal stake to lay claim to control what he’s lost control of.  He admits as much on “The View”, suggesting that his abusive rant that his daughter recorded was meant for his ex-wife.

[F]inally he admitted that it had been “improper” of him to use the word and that he had really intended the message for his ex-wife, not his child.

Classic MRA manuevering.  The ex-wife doesn’t have to listen to you scream and call her names any more, and you can’t accept that, so you take it out on your children.  Baldwin has all the other signs of having completely lost his mind over this, including the obsessive recounting of court minutia, something that becomes a focal point for many MRAs, as they sue and re-sue their exes to renegotiate custody, because the alternative—-actually letting go and realizing you cannot control your ex-wife any longer—-is unbearable. 

So that’s contestant #1.  Contestant #2 starts off her portion of the contest on a strong foot of suck, implying that it’s better to call a fat woman a pig than a thin woman.

If you were female and heard that tape recording, you remembered two things about it: the pitch and tenor of the snarling male voice and the use of that word. When a man calls an overweight woman a pig, he is saying she is fat. When he calls a slim and attractive girl—someone like Ireland—a pig, he is using the word in another sense, one that suggests a particularly feminine kind of repulsiveness. It was a horribly crude, almost sexual thing for a man to call his daughter.

The only thing she gets right is that it’s a nasty word, and it does have a weird sexual subtext.  But I actually don’t detect any difference in how it’s used against women, regardless of dress size.  When aimed at women, it’s about implying that there’s something foul and animalistic about female flesh (though the more you have of it, the more likely you are to hear the insult), and it has a side dish of shaming women about having appetites and desires, and not just of the culinary sort. One thing I found interesting in the book “Pledged” was that the run of girls to their new sororities every year at SMU is called the Pig Run, showing that the association between women and pigs is firmly ingrained in our society, even if the term is increasingly being used as a slur against just fat women.

To normal people, what Baldwin’s message clarified was that men in the thrall of patriarchal entitlement end up seeing women and children on the same continuum—-as possessions, albeit ones that you have different uses for, but both under your control and deserving of an abusive dressing down if you lose that control.  Gender came into play because daughters are seen as more subject than sons to fatherly authority, and obviously Baldwin didn’t have a problem using sexist insults to reinforce that.  But, well, Flanagan reads the situation in an entirely different way.  Pointing out that Baldwin is a devoted father, Flanagan then says:

Obviously that devotion is romantic, and here is the reason this scandal has engaged us for so long: its true center is not a particularly lurid and public divorce…...

But a romance doesn’t need sex to flourish, of course, and in his daughter a father discovers a person whose very bloodline ensures that she will be charming to him: at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago! And instead of nattering away about all the tedious things your wife is always going on about, this ravishing new version has been programmed (by you) to talk about and care about all the things you are interested in.

But don’t worry!  It’s not incestuous, because familiarity breeds contempt.

Dad doesn’t get too excited by the sight of Mom in her shimmy anymore, for the same reason Buddy’s never taken a hankering to Sissy: they’ve seen too much. It’s not community censure that has kept incest in check all these centuries; it’s stomach flu.

Which has the unfortunate implication that Dad having sex with Mom is incest, too, but let’s not get distracted from the real creep factor, which is that Flanagan is selling the father-daughter bond as sexual, or “romantic”, which is of course our culture’s euphemism for behaviors that convey erotic love and passion.  Worse, your daughter is hotter than your wife, and so that’s got to spin a guy, right?  Luckily, Flanagan has a cure for this unfortunate love triangle that couples create by breeding.

Fathers routinely (and quite callously) announce to the world that their daughters have a special and particularly feminine claim to their hearts that their wives don’t. It would be a recipe for disaster, were it not for the fact that family life is constructed so that it can contain both romances perfectly. And—as Alec Baldwin may someday come to find out—it’s the larger romance that girls (those cunning observers) really have their eyes on. If your father thinks you’re enchanting, but he’s put your mother out to pasture—well, that’s just disturbing. You have somehow beguiled this powerful, grown man in a way your own mother could not; what’s wrong with you?

How to count the screwed-up assumptions?  First of all, the notion that divorce is about men putting women out to pasture for the crime of becoming middle-aged marks Flanagan as hailing straight from the trophy wife class, because in the real world, women file for divorce more often than men.  Worse is the notion that a young woman can only construct male affection for her as sexual, sorry, “romantic” in nature, though in reality I suspect most kids realize that parental love is parental from both parents.  I’m not disputing that the Daddy’s Little Girl syndrome exists.  We’ve all met men who can’t contextualize loving a member of the opposite sex without dwelling on her as a sex object (even if they don’t actually feel sexually towards her), and so they encourage every little pretty princess behavior imaginable and don’t seem to get that their obsession with their daughters’ looks is creepy.  Jessica Simpson’s dad comes to mind.  But that doesn’t characterize most father/daughter relationships by a long shot, even when divorce enters the picture.  God knows I was more likely to spend time with my dad changing a tire than being treated as girlfriend lite.  (Gross.)  I hate to even write about this, it grosses me out so much, but I think it’s relevant because Flanagan is once again fronting like she’s an intellectual, when actually all this stuff she’s spouting comes straight from Focus on Family-era Christian fundamentalism. 

In other words, Flanagan is being a subtle apologist for the movement that gave birth to purity balls.  In the right wing Christian worldview, it’s not only acceptable but advisable to sexualize your daughter as part of her training in being a good and proper woman who is passed from father to husband, and who regards them as roughly the same except she presumably has intercourse only with the latter.  The asexual, sorry, aromantic relationship between father and daughter is regularly touted by right wingers as the reason that young women have sex outside of marriage.**  I wish I could say I was joking, but I’m not—-it’s assumed that young women date men not in their families because they long for that dating attention that should be provided by their fathers.  Thus, the “Date Your Daughter” movement has become a big deal in the Christian right, because they assume if daddy’s ponying up with the gifts, flirting, and meals, then he can monopolize a girl until he gives her away to a man who actually gets to fuck her.  Most of us are disgusted, but Flanagan’s trying to dress up this dysfunction as the natural order, and even going so far as to suggest that divorce disrupts it and permanently fucks girls up.

So, I leave it to you, Pandagonians.

Who’s creepier
Alec Baldwin
Caitlin Flanagan
  
pollcode.com free polls

 


*Flanagan trots out Basinger’s court battle with the studio over her refusal to do “Boxing Helena” unless they rewrote the script to make Helena less bitchy.  What Flanagan doesn’t bother to explain is that Basinger was right—-a movie that seems like it’s going to be an examination of male obsession ends up making you wonder why the rapist/kidnapper of the story wants this particular woman, because she’s so awful.  The movie’s a mess, because it can’t decide if it wants to be an examination of obsession or if it wants to endorse the patriarchal script about containing and silencing women. 
**Because it certainly can’t be that women have sexual desire.  Next you’ll be telling me they have orgasms. 

 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:22 AM • (130) Comments

Allow me to be the first to say, “Ewwww.” Partly because incest (real or imagined) creeps me out, and partly because it’s even more creepy when Alec Baldwin is involved. He’s a brilliant comic actor, but I don’t want to think about what makes his bits swell up. Ick.

Comment #1: the matthew show  on  04/22  at  11:46 AM

“But a romance doesn’t need sex to flourish, of course, and in his daughter a father discovers a person whose very bloodline ensures that she will be charming to him: at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago! And instead of nattering away about all the tedious things your wife is always going on about, this ravishing new version has been programmed (by you) to talk about and care about all the things you are interested in.”

Oh. my. god.

Comment #2: preying mantis  on  04/22  at  11:47 AM

I had to go with Flanagan because she creeps me out with her faux feminism schtick. It’s the fact she’s cloaking her analysis in a pro-woman persona that imbues her completely fucked-up analysis of the situation that extra-special creepiness.

Comment #3: annajcook  on  04/22  at  11:48 AM

EWWWWW.
YEURCH.
FTHAK.
Flanagan is creepiest. There’s no love in her worldview, just ownership. Plus something that’s a bit like sexual desire, but joyless and only experienced by men.

Comment #4: MissPrism  on  04/22  at  11:53 AM

Wow. That’s a tough call. I’m casting my vote for Flanagan though. Baldwin just seems to much of a run of the mill MRA.

Comment #5: Mark  on  04/22  at  11:54 AM

I had to vote Baldwin, but it was a close one. Baldwin’s behaviors are sadly commonplace, whereas Flanagan’s are less mainstream, but Baldwin has a media platform that Flanagan can only wish for. So the big dog takes the dinner.

Comment #6: benvolio  on  04/22  at  11:56 AM

Preying Mantis repeats the right quote.  That’s profoundly creepy.

Comment #7: L33tminion  on  04/22  at  11:57 AM

Yeah I’m too jaded by the MRA schtick to be creeped out by it at this point. To be honest, it’s kinda boring.

But Flanagan…just when you think they hit a new low, they prove you wrong.

Comment #8: Karmakin  on  04/22  at  11:58 AM

The spectacular lack of self-awareness of the “oh, noez, my wife is now middle-aged!” argument has never ceased to stun me. Dude, do the math—your wife was young and attractive back when you were… young and attractive. She’s now middle-aged, which makes you… (c’mon, you can do it…)

Comment #9: Llelldorin  on  04/22  at  12:00 PM

Do these people even know what its like to live in a family? I have a fabulous dad—he’s a lovely geek who was a hands on parent. There’s no fucking romance involved in the father-daughter relationship unless the dad is a perv and/or totally uninvolved in the daily raising of children such that his unfamiliarity with this small female creature only allows him to engage her as a sex object. Fucked up and totally Victorian. I’m beginning to think that not only are conservatives more afraid as a subspecies, but also inherently incestuous. Gross! Fail!

Comment #10: Thealogian  on  04/22  at  12:00 PM

I have both a daughter and a son, and in my totally objective opinion, they are both incredibly good looking, intelligent and charming.  Perfect specimens of humanity, really, in every possible way.

I guess I’m bisexual.

Comment #11: Stephen Suh  on  04/22  at  12:03 PM

I’m going to have to echo the “Oh. My. God.” I’m laughing, but mostly in horror.

Comment #12: Alexander  on  04/22  at  12:06 PM

I voted for Baldwin and I was surprised to see only one third did!  Baldwin actually did things, Flanagan only commented on them.

Comment #13: Magis  on  04/22  at  12:08 PM

“But a romance doesn’t need sex to flourish, of course, and in his daughter a father discovers a person whose very bloodline ensures that she will be charming to him: at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago!”

I just wonder how she takes daughters who look like their fathers….. Maybe she just justifies it as looking like his sister instead of him

Ashley, who looks just like her paternal aunt, grandfather, uncles, and father but bears almost no resemblance to her mother.

Comment #14: Ashley  on  04/22  at  12:09 PM

It’s bizarre how the type who’ll say “Get married and have kids or you’ll be a lonely old slut and even your cats will hate you” will also say “But of course men all hate their ugly boring wives! It’s only natural!”

I mean, it’s not bizarre that they’re the same people, because both ideas follow from the belief that women are inherently shit and deserve to be miserable. But it’s bizarre that they openly say both these things and expect us not to notice.

Comment #15: MissPrism  on  04/22  at  12:09 PM

EEEE… I don’t even want to think about the levels of fucked up that are going on in claiming that fathers all have romantic interests in their daughters.

WTF?!

It grosses me out enough that I don’t have anything more to say. How would the kids in that situation feel? I can’t even imagine that family dynamic at all… guck… I mean as a teen I liked the freedom of being able to be myself at home without having to live up to the standards put on us from the outside… I can’t imagine what I would have been like if the atmosphere at home had been even more stifling… but then I have a dad who has said recently:

“I was sure in the 70’s that we were making progress, that my children wouldn’t have to grow up under a glass ceiling with their imaginations and opportunities stifled. I’m so sad that we haven’t managed to come further since then. I hope it won’t take another 30 years to get to where we should have been all along.”

So I had an awesome dad… who would have been just as skeeved out by that idea as anyone on this thread… how can that NOT make you want to shower?

Comment #16: kodiak  on  04/22  at  12:11 PM

He’s a brilliant comic actor, but I don’t want to think about what makes his bits swell up.

Looking in the mirror, I’m guessing. Which is probably how he thinks about his child when she’s disobedient. Bad, piggy reflection of my glorious visage!

Flanagan gets my vote, though, and joins MoDo and Althouse on the list of pseudo-feminists with creepy daddy issues. Baldwin, at least, doesn’t pretend he’s anything other than what he is.

Comment #17: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  12:13 PM

And Flanagan being the one to make the argument that middle-aged==unattractive, and following it with a reverse-2 sublimated-incest argument with a degree of difficulty 3.1, wins her the creepathon, hands down.

Comment #18: Llelldorin  on  04/22  at  12:13 PM

For a while I was hoping that Flanagan was saying this stuff in the third person, to explain just what kind of disgusting creepitude Baldwin was into, but eeech.

The whole idea that being aware of someone’s bodily functions (or dysfunctions) kills “romance”. Also eeech.

Comment #19: paul  on  04/22  at  12:14 PM

“Flanagan only commented on them.”

If by “commented on,” you mean “wrote a paean to how it’s only natural to treat your children as sexbots,” then yes, yes she did.  I mean, just…holy shit.

Comment #20: preying mantis  on  04/22  at  12:15 PM

Ha, I read this story when it was linked on Metafilter, and even after a day or two to try to scrub it from my brain, ew, still so very creepy. Yeah, Baldwin is an MRA prick, but Flanagan’s analysis gave me the shivers, because it’s just so fucked up.

Comment #21: Bella  on  04/22  at  12:20 PM

There’s a difference between creepy and horrible, I think, that gives the vote to Flanagan.  Being an asshole isn’t the same thing as being creepy, and fundamentally, that’s all Baldwin is.  A straight-forward, run-of-the-mill asshole who unfortunately is one of the funniest people on TV.  Flanagan brings it to a different level that makes a chill run up your spine. 

This isn’t by any means saying Baldwin is better, he’s just more easily understood and less ‘creepy’

Comment #22: Billingham  on  04/22  at  12:23 PM

“You have somehow beguiled this powerful, grown man in a way your own mother could not”
1. Boak. 
2. My dad hates my mum. I can deal with this concept with perfect equanimity because I know there’s a difference between parental love and “beguilement”.

And what about when daughters get middle aged? Do fathers stop loving them too, and switch to their “ravishing” grandchildren?

You should hold a separate poll about whether Flanagan’s argument is more spectacularly wrong in a.  the logical or b. the moral sense of the word “wrong.”

Comment #23: MissPrism  on  04/22  at  12:25 PM

So I had an awesome dad… who would have been just as skeeved out by that idea as anyone on this thread… how can that NOT make you want to shower?

I think the only thing that keeps me from wanting desperately to shower is the fact that I desperately want to keep my clothes on.

Comment #24: Billingham  on  04/22  at  12:25 PM

I actually vote for Chrisopher Cahill, who wrote the sidebar “review” that’s linked on the first page of the Flanagan article.  If Baldwin’s book is “Bitches Ain’t Shit,” Cahill’s review is “Bitches, man . . . they’d bake your kids in a pie and feed it to you if they thought they could get away with it.”

What is with the Atlantic, anyway?

Comment #25: vlad  on  04/22  at  12:25 PM

Shower? I want to shower in neat Dettol.
Boiling Dettol.
With some steel to scrape the squick off.

Comment #26: MissPrism  on  04/22  at  12:27 PM

But a romance doesn’t need sex to flourish, of course, and in his daughter a father discovers a person whose very bloodline ensures that she will be charming to him: at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago! And instead of nattering away about all the tedious things your wife is always going on about, this ravishing new version has been programmed (by you) to talk about and care about all the things you are interested in.

Good lord, she’s the Bizzaro Sigmund Freud!

Comment #27: Alex, FCD  on  04/22  at  12:29 PM

Okay, Flanagan is creepy here, but really, she’s the enabler. Baldwin is the actor and architect of the fundamental creep, so he gets my vote for creepiest.

I so don’t understand this sexualized view of father-daughter relationships. I share the gut-rumbling ewwww response to all of this.

Comment #28: Phoebe Fay  on  04/22  at  12:29 PM

It’s bizarre how the type who’ll say “Get married and have kids or you’ll be a lonely old slut and even your cats will hate you” will also say “But of course men all hate their ugly boring wives! It’s only natural!” 

The idea is to use your beauty to lure some man into having you, and then hoping he’ll keep you because no one else will do his laundry. And to be grateful for the opportunity, because the alternatives are worse.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  12:33 PM

Baldwin gets my vote in the poll but Flanagan for the win for the from-another-planet-entirely rationale that your brother seeing you barf is why he doesn’t want to hump you.

..for the same reason Buddy’s never taken a hankering to Sissy: they’ve seen too much. It’s not community censure that has kept incest in check all these centuries; it’s stomach flu.

Remember ladies, you’re just one bad bowl of clam chowder away from ‘Buddy’ getting all up in your pants.

Comment #30: mir  on  04/22  at  12:33 PM

While Alec Baldwin was being/is a complete asswipe, you asked about “creepy,” and Flanagan takes THAT contest in a cakewalk. Gahhh.

Comment #31: MH  on  04/22  at  12:34 PM

Considering the range of Conservative worries and panic attacks, I have to conclude that these Fundies actually are incestuous homosexual bisexual socialist gun-hating secular-humanist atheist Canadian feminist man-hating abortion-loving divorce-loving castrating French literate cosmopolitan traitorous Islamic anti-Americans who barely keep that roiling, hideous cauldron of transgressive desires in check by constant prayer.

I mean, seriously.  People who are actually any of the above things don’t spend a hundredth of the time worrying about and/or enjoying said transgressive behaviors as these Conservatives do.

Comment #32: tannenburg  on  04/22  at  12:34 PM

A straight-forward, run-of-the-mill asshole who unfortunately is one of the funniest people on TV.

I think that often being a real-life arsehole (or being seriously screwed up in some other way) is a pre-requisite for being one of the funniest people on TV (which he is).

What is with the Atlantic, anyway?

They’ve been tinkering with their business model as they transition from dead-trees to a primarily on-line platform. Part of it seems to be going to a blog model in various topic verticals, which has led to some bad decisions regarding regular contributors (e.g. making Teabagger-apologist Megan Mcardle their flagship economics columnist).

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  12:35 PM

You have a point, Billingham.  I may have spiked it for Flanagan by using the word “creepy”.  That said, calling your daughter a pig is creepy.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  12:41 PM

    ..for the same reason Buddy’s never taken a hankering to Sissy: they’ve seen too much. It’s not community censure that has kept incest in check all these centuries; it’s stomach flu.

This is extremely freaking weird.  And as someone who panics about the hook-up culture, well, shouldn’t Flanagan realize that most college students have seen their friends ralph from time to time, and yet, still find them sexually desireable?

Comment #35: Billingham  on  04/22  at  12:44 PM

Yeah, Baldwin plays the asshole Jack Donaghue with such aplomb because he’s channeling something inside of himself.  One of the things that makes “30 Rock” uncomfortably brilliant is that Fey taps something inside most of the actors when writing parts for them.  The one exception, I suspect, is that Jenna isn’t so much a parody version of Jane Krakowski as she is a parody of Maya Rudolph.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  12:44 PM

you know, I hadn’t thought about purity balls in a while (mercifully), but seeing the phrase in the post triggered a hideous conjunction of ‘purity balls’ with ‘teabaggers’...  ew.

and, we all know only SLUTS have orgasms!!!

I really can’t decide who is creepier.

Comment #37: mingo  on  04/22  at  12:48 PM

This is extremely freaking weird.  And as someone who panics about the hook-up culture, well, shouldn’t Flanagan realize that most college students have seen their friends ralph from time to time, and yet, still find them sexually desireable?

No, you’re misreading that line. She’s not talking about a LITERAL stomach flu, she’s referring to the sick, grossed-out feeling people (who aren’t Cate Flanagan) get when thinking about incest.

Comment #38: MH  on  04/22  at  12:51 PM

And aren’t your children the people you see vomit most often of all?  I only met my friend’s new baby last weekend, and I’ve already seen him vomit more times than I’ve seen my boyfriend do so. Wouldn’t parental “romance” be killed by familiarity far more quickly than between any two adults?

Oh, wait - a Real Manly Father will never have changed his daughter’s nappy or stayed home with her when she’s got flu. Only in her teens, when she gets pretty enough, will she be worthy of his attention.

Comment #39: MissPrism  on  04/22  at  12:51 PM

... at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago!

Does the fact that Kim Basinger at 54 is still hotter than a four-balled tomcat not negate some of these idiotic ‘middle aged’ arguments? I mean, shit, the dude married her when she was 40 not when she was 18. Sorry Caitlin, but young Ireland has 25 or 30 years of maturing before she resembles the ‘unlined face’ Alec Baldwin fell in love with 15 years ago.

Comment #40: Sarcastro  on  04/22  at  12:51 PM

The one exception, I suspect, is that Jenna isn’t so much a parody version of Jane Krakowski as she is a parody of Maya Rudolph.

Not to de-rail too much, what makes you suspect this? I ask because two different people who spent significant time on the SNL set both mentioned that Maya (with whom I was acquainted many years ago) seemed to consider herself a “special” in comparison to the rest of the cast and crew.

Comment #41: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  12:52 PM

Baldwin’s an asshole and a creep, but Flanagan wins the creepy contest.  I don’t mean to minimize Baldwin’s assholitude, but his assholitude is (sadly enough) pretty garden variety MRA stuff.  So, as far as creepy goes, he’s nailed the standard floor routine in workmanlike fashion.  Flanagan, however, completely spikes it on her freestyle.  I mean, for crying out loud—not only did she eroticize the father-daughter relationship in a way that seems to almost excuse Baldwin for his assholery, but she also manages to work in ageism, brother-sister incest and vomiting.  That takes talent.

Comment #42: nolo  on  04/22  at  12:53 PM

No, you’re misreading that line. She’s not talking about a LITERAL stomach flu, she’s referring to the sick, grossed-out feeling people (who aren’t Cate Flanagan) get when thinking about incest.

No, I don’t think I am - the whole sentence is a comparison between why middle-aged married couples lose some of their sex drives:

  Dad doesn’t get too excited by the sight of Mom in her shimmy anymore, for the same reason Buddy’s never taken a hankering to Sissy: they’ve seen too much. It’s not community censure that has kept incest in check all these centuries; it’s stomach flu.

Comment #43: Billingham  on  04/22  at  12:56 PM

You can tell by the fact that Krawowski is imitating her pretty faithfully, and also if you peruse SNL skits, Rudolph is always finding opportunities to sing.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  12:57 PM

This is extremely freaking weird.  And as someone who panics about the hook-up culture, well, shouldn’t Flanagan realize that most college students have seen their friends ralph from time to time, and yet, still find them sexually desireable?

Silly Billingham, don’t you realize that if you see your sex partner as a real human being with human traits and failings it’s a totall desire-killer? Who wants a partner who isn’t a plastic representation of a person with only the thoughts and ideas that are vetted beforehand by the manly-man partner. Perfect partners don’t sneeze or fart or blow their noses, they don’t get fevers or have a bad night’s rest, they are always perfectly coifed and never have to cover a blemish. Anything less is likely boring and middle aged and in no way sexy!

/wingnut

Comment #45: kodiak  on  04/22  at  12:57 PM

I have to echo the sentiment that Flanagan wins the “Who’s creepier” contest. Baldwin’s just being a raging, controlling asshole. Flanagan’s comments on incest… Dear god, that was disturbing to read.

Comment #46: Prodigal  on  04/22  at  12:57 PM

Bill, I think she was joking.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/22  at  12:59 PM

Oh - never mind then.  The logic centers of my brain have been reduced to jelly by that article.

Comment #48: Billingham  on  04/22  at  01:00 PM

hotter than a four-balled tomcat

What the huh?

Comment #49: kaninchen  on  04/22  at  01:02 PM

Flanagan wins creepy. But Cahill really earns his inclusion in an asshole poll with his piece about “parental alienation syndrome.” I mean, this:

The combination of these delusions with a family-law system, corrupt and incompetent at its norm and ever so slowly emerging from the feminist time warp in which it robotically seeks to give belated remedy to long-vanished problems, is a toxic social recipe.

is chock full of wrong.

Comment #50: vladimir  on  04/22  at  01:06 PM

What the hell is it about arguably liberal, A-list male actors jumping on the MRA train?  Baldwin, Farell…this is starting to be like Scientology.

Comment #51: Antigone  on  04/22  at  01:15 PM

Vote for Flanagan. Baldwin’s an asshole, but Flanagan’s way creepier, with a seriously warped idea of Victorian sexuality. I haven’t read Baldwin’s book, and don’t intend to, but I hope he can salvage a decent relationship with his daughter, and separate his rage at his ex-wife (whether it’s justified or not) from how he treats his daughter.

With regards to Flanagan’s idea of a daughter replacing a spouse in a father’s eyes—I have an 8-year-old daughter. The idea that I’d view her in a sexual way at all is so repulsive I can barely stand to type it.

Comment #52: Norsecats  on  04/22  at  01:18 PM

1. Eeeeewwww, the squick factor is overwhelming.

2. I am going now to call my father and thank him for being a sane, rational, caring, non-creepy dad who helped raise me without any hint of creepiness or MRA- style control.

3. Again, eeeeeewwww.

Comment #53: Awkward  on  04/22  at  01:30 PM

I also had to give my vote to Flanagan:  garden-variety MRA whininess just can’t compete with ultra-creepy incest fantasies.

Comment #54: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  01:39 PM

I read the article.  That was supposed to be a book review?  I must have missed the part where she, oh, actually talked about how the book was written.  All I got from it was that Flanagan has some severe daddy issues.  I was abused by my father and don’t have a mindset like *that*.  Ewwwwww.

Comment #55: Tyche  on  04/22  at  01:49 PM

I had to go with Flanagan because Baldwin’s creepy is just so garden variety.  Flanagan’s creepy is much more outlandish and shocking.

Comment #56: GumbyAnne  on  04/22  at  01:56 PM

Ewwwww….

Comment #57: Arakiba  on  04/22  at  02:07 PM

She even gets the cause and effect wrong:  Because incest disrupts normal family dynamics, it is highly discouraged in almost all known cultures throughout human history.

Part of that is the ‘stomach flu’ feeling which is a form cf cultural conditioning which know-nothings assume that it’s a ‘natural reaction’ to certain circumstances.

There was a profile of Baldwin in Esquire about the time he got married to Kim that painted him as a tough, smart guy, but now I’m sorry I ever felt he was someone to look up to in the first place.

Brecht said it best in his Life of Galileo:

Andrea: “Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero.”

Galileo: “No, Andrea: Unhappy is the land that needs a hero.”

Comment #58: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/22  at  02:19 PM

1. What’s wrong with men’s rights?  Or advocating them?  Are you saying men shouldn’t have rights?  Or that they already have all of them?  No doubt there are more and less assholy ways to advocate whatever it is you’re advocating, but avoiding vast generalizations might be a good practice for all sides to follow.

2. Have you noticed that people whose relationships are crashing rarely act their best, for reasons that are usually unclear to themselves and to most people who know them, though completely and utterly crystal-clear to people who don’t know them at all?

3. Related to that, consider your worst behavior in a relationship, ever.  Do you really want to be judged forever, exclusively, on the basis of that isolated incident?  Sister Helen Prejean made a pretty big point of not reducing someone to the worst thing s/he ever did.

4. Who cares about these people?  Why is anyone asking which of these media chimeras is more of a creep?  There’s actual important stuff going on, people torturing in your name and walking free, bankers stealing your children’s yet-uninstalled fillings—remember the Proverb for Paranoids that says, “If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”

Comment #59: MixedContent  on  04/22  at  02:27 PM

Maya (with whom I was acquainted many years ago) seemed to consider herself a “special” in comparison to the rest of the cast and crew.

Her Wikipedia page rather gratuitously mentions the fact that she’s friends with Gwyneth Paltrow, so yeah, she seems to have some issues.  Perhaps Tracy Morgan’s character has a bit of Maya in it too?

Comment #60: BABH  on  04/22  at  02:32 PM

Who cares about these people?

You do, obviously, because you took the time to write a 4-point response to Amanda’s blog post and only ranked the above point 4th.

Comment #61: Stephen Suh  on  04/22  at  02:34 PM

Voted Baldwin though Flanagan’s incest stuff is really creepy! Ewww

I didn’t vote for her because think she captured a couple of things well: How abusive fathers hurt daughters (and sons ) deeply.  How daughter Ireland has to live in the middle of this dispute, knowing at once that her father loves her and that her father is an abusive prick. And how Alec Baldwin was showing his abusive temper even so many years ago, when his daughter was born.

I didn’t read her article as her disparaging Kim Bassinger, she seemed to me that she made clear that she was telling us Alec’s side of the story, and she seemed to be hinting we should listen to it with a <s>grain</s> boulder of salt. The entire article seems like she is trying to make a sympathetic article to Baldwin but she just can’t bring herself to do it because he is such a douche.

I also feel very sorry for the kid. Poor girl must be going nuts with all this.

Comment #62: Renmiri  on  04/22  at  02:35 PM

Thanks for your concern, MixedContent!

Comment #63: kaninchen  on  04/22  at  02:39 PM

Mixed content:
1) There’s nothing wrong with men having rights.  I’m a man and I kinda like having rights.  But the Men’s Rights Movement isn’t about men’s rights, it’s about punishing women.
2) There may be all sorts of excuses for emotionally abusing your daughter at a difficult time in your life, but I can’t think of any good excuses.
3) I think that knowing the depths I can sink to if I’m not careful is valuable knowledge, though I could never be proud of how it was won.  Perhaps the measure of a person is not in the mistakes themselves, but in how they respond to their mistakes.  Do they learn from them, or repeat them?  Does Alec Baldwin apologize for his behavior, or try to excuse it?
4) Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time, and many of us are interested in serious moral questions, illustrated with real-life examples.

Comment #64: BABH  on  04/22  at  02:41 PM

I understand why people are voting for Flanagan as the creepiest because, well, gah what a creep!  But I’m a little disappointed to see all the “Alec Baldwin is just a run of the mill MRA asshole” comments.  Like his entitled attitude and abusive behavior are mild annoyance, or that we really shouldn’t expect better from the menz.  That’s exactly the attitude that has allowed the MRA culture to flourish.  Obviously the use of the word ‘creep’ skews it toward Caitlin with her incest ruminations but what if the question were “who is the biggest entitled asshole?”  Baldwin would win, hands down.

Comment #65: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  02:45 PM

I knew about the purity balls, but this is the first I’ve heard of the date your father movement.  God knows I could have gone longer without knowing about it.  There just are no words.

Comment #66: Lady Vader  on  04/22  at  02:47 PM

MixedContent - I’ll let you in on a little secret.  “Men’s rights” doesn’t mean what you think it means.  Actual men’s rights are important, but misogynist men use it as a code phrase to mean “I’m not getting my way and it’s all a woman’s fault!”  It’s like pretending to be “pro-life” when you only care about punishing sex.

Comment #67: bananacat  on  04/22  at  02:53 PM

Hokay, so I was originally intending on voting for Baldwin, because Cait has her awesome moments (not too many people manage to render Stephen Colbert speechless), but this is fucking creepy. Like, I thought her review of Twilight was kind of creepy (had its points, but failed to mention that Edward is a grade-A abusive twerp), but this is seriously creepy. So now I’m tied.

Frankly, the notion of a father-daughter relationship being different from a father-son relationship *at all* strikes me as creepy, probably because my dad treats me like a bro, complete with what is apparently, in the rest of the world, “how to be a Real Man” advice (be aggressive, take risks, if you want something just ask for it ‘cos the worst they can do is say no, and for god’s sakes don’t stand with your arms folded like you’re afraid to take up space!). But maybe that one’s just me.

Comment #68: thecynicalromantic  on  04/22  at  03:00 PM

EEEE… I don’t even want to think about the levels of fucked up that are going on in claiming that fathers all have romantic interests in their daughters.
WTF?!

Two words:  Ball.  Purity.

Comment #69: Smartpatrol  on  04/22  at  03:05 PM

I had no idea there was a date your father “movement” but I clicked on the link and dear lord jesus mary, joseph and a camel, that was GROSS. But this was especially telling:

You want to date her and win her heart early, so you can give it away when it is the right time.

At least he doesn’t try to hide what exactly this is. Young women have no agency and daddy’s gonna sell you off when it’s the right time. Count me among those young women happy as hell my father didn’t believe in this bullshit.

I voted for Flanagan cause, yeah, the question was about “creepy” and ever since my motherly bluntly told me what “incest” meant there has never been anything creepier in my mind (shudders at the memory).

Comment #70: UltraMagnus  on  04/22  at  03:08 PM

“I knew about the purity balls, but this is the first I’ve heard of the date your father movement.  God knows I could have gone longer without knowing about it.  There just are no words.”

I think omfg actually has it covered.  Because, with all due respect to DonnaDiva’s post @ 1:45, that’s about the first thing that’s made me think “Well, at least those other families are just having purity balls.” “Date Your Daughter” takes that creepiness and turns it all the way up to eleven.

Comment #71: preying mantis  on  04/22  at  03:17 PM

Flanagan definitely wins the creep factor.  I’m desperately searching for brain bleach as I write this. 

I was also pissed that she goes on to say “but at least Ireland knows that her father REALLY loves her since he is willing to take the time and continue being abusive to her rather than just disappear from her life.”  WTF?

Comment #72: history_mom  on  04/22  at  03:20 PM

Dad doesn’t get too excited by the sight of Mom in her shimmy anymore, for the same reason Buddy’s never taken a hankering to Sissy

This is just factually wrong.  Of course there are cultural factors against incest, but it seems there is also a biological factor.  It’s not about spending a certain amount of time with a person that makes them sexually repulsive, it’s growing up with that person that causes that reaction.  People tend to develop and aversion to anyone they lived with as a child, including adopted siblings and step-siblings.  It’s not just about seeing too much of someone. 

This whole daddy-dating-daughter thing freaks me out.  It’s like they started with a great idea (encouraging fathers to spend more time with their children, especially daughters who they might value less), and just took it to a really, really creepy level.  Incest doesn’t have to be physical to have an affect on a kid.

Comment #73: bananacat  on  04/22  at  03:20 PM

The only thing she gets right is that it’s a nasty word, and it does have a weird sexual subtext.  But I actually don’t detect any difference in how it’s used against women, regardless of dress size.  When aimed at women, it’s about implying that there’s something foul and animalistic about female flesh (though the more you have of it, the more likely you are to hear the insult), and it has a side dish of shaming women about having appetites and desires, and not just of the culinary sort.

Yeah, and a woman’s body is always up for criticism whether she’s genuinely fat or not.  People, mostly men, always fall back on the same three insults to take down a woman:  Fat.  Ugly.  Bitch.  Whether the woman is a fat, ugly bitch is totally irrelevant.

...in the real world, women file for divorce more often than men.

I would really love a study examining who really is responsible for the end of those marriages.  All of the divorces I’ve seen were initiated by the wife, but most of those marriages were, with absolutely no doubt, torpedoed by the husband.  It really seems like a lot of men have a big problem with taking the final steps in ending a relationship and will just leave it as another chore for women to take of.

Her Wikipedia page rather gratuitously mentions the fact that she’s friends with Gwyneth Paltrow, so yeah, she seems to have some issues.

Aww, so she and P.T. Anderson are just perfect for each other.  That’s so sweet.

Comment #74: keshmeshi  on  04/22  at  03:22 PM

The spectacular lack of self-awareness of the “oh, noez, my wife is now middle-aged!” argument has never ceased to stun me. Dude, do the math—your wife was young and attractive back when you were… young and attractive. She’s now middle-aged, which makes you… (c’mon, you can do it…)

Silly person, don’t you realize that men are never middle-aged?  It’s the natural way (or God’s way, if you prefer) for men to care only about looks and domestic duties and for women to care only about money and presents and having someone to provide for her.  Women lose their looks at middle-age but men can continue making money for a long time.  And since women don’t care about looks at all, men never have to worry about looking old.

Comment #75: bananacat  on  04/22  at  03:26 PM

But I’m a little disappointed to see all the “Alec Baldwin is just a run of the mill MRA asshole” comments.  Like his entitled attitude and abusive behavior are mild annoyance, or that we really shouldn’t expect better from the menz.

Since Alec Baldwin has been running around whining about his evil ex-wife for at least a decade now, I think the reaction is more, “Is he still going on about that?”

Let’s face it:  he put a book out back in September and it flopped.  Badly.  Now he’s desperately trying to get some—any—attention for his run-of-the-mill, garden-variety whining about his evil ex-wife.  So desperate that he’s turning to Caitlin frickin’ Flanagan for the attention he craves.

We’re dismissing him because, frankly, he’s not very important.  He can’t even manage to get other MRAs to buy his book or take him seriously, much less the rest of the media.

Comment #76: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  03:31 PM

hotter than a four-balled tomcat

What the huh?

Well, I thought “hotter than two foxes fucking in a forest fire” was a bit too uncouth.

Comment #77: Sarcastro  on  04/22  at  03:37 PM

People, mostly men, always fall back on the same three insults to take down a woman:  Fat.  Ugly.  Bitch.

Yeah, I’ve been called fat or ugly a few times when a man hits on me and I’m not interested, or if I want to break up with a man I’ve been dating.  It’s weird because if he asked me out, then his insulting me is basically implying that he either has no standards or he thinks he can’t do any better than a fat, ugly bitch.  Usually I’ll just say something like, “If you think I’m fat, then why did you hit on me in the first place?”  I’m not sure why some guys get so angry about it anyway.  I mean, I understand what it’s like to be turned down, and it’s not pleasant for anyone to experience that.  But it’s not like I intentionally try to make them feel bad; I try to be as nice about it as possible.

Comment #78: bananacat  on  04/22  at  03:38 PM

“MixedContent - I’ll let you in on a little secret.  “Men’s rights” doesn’t mean what you think it means.”

I think of it as a lot like the “if we can have black pride why can’t we have white pride” canard.  I don’t have the patience to engage it anymore.

Comment #79: Lady Vader  on  04/22  at  03:38 PM

And since women don’t care about looks at all, men never have to worry about looking old.

Yet these same women become amazingly “visually oriented” when it comes to beautifying the spheres assigned to them - themselves and their surroundings.  No, seriously, that visual acuity that is mysteriously absent when evaluating men emerges in a big way when women are scrutinizing themselves in a dressing room mirror or arranging the furniture in the living room.  With men, it’s the inverse of course.  The menz can’t tell teal from aquamarine and can’t see the dandruff flakes on their sport coats but they can assess your waist-to-hip ratio from 100 yards away.  Evo psych is magic!

Comment #80: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  03:41 PM

Really?  You know, I’ve gotten the fat thing a lot from women, but only online.

Comment #81: Lady Vader  on  04/22  at  03:42 PM

I’ve gotten the fat thing a lot from women, but only online.

I think the “fat” thing is more universal, but the “ugly” and “bitch” stuff seems to come more from men, but that’s just my own experience, so take it for what it’s worth.

Comment #82: keshmeshi  on  04/22  at  03:45 PM

I abstained. Can’t decide between the two.

A copout, I know, but just when I think I’ve made a decision, I find something about the “winner” that’s even more perverse.

Comment #83: I Love Rock'n'Roll  on  04/22  at  03:46 PM

Yet these same women become amazingly “visually oriented” when it comes to beautifying the spheres assigned to them - themselves and their surroundings ... Evo psych is magic!

But don’t you remember that evo psych nonsense a few weeks ago that “proves” that women don’t care about what they look at; they just want people to enjoy looking at them (and by extension their creation of a beautiful couch-table-lamp combo).  And they only want people to admire their looks so that they can get money out of it.

Comment #84: bananacat  on  04/22  at  04:18 PM

He can’t even manage to get other MRAs to buy his book or take him seriously

That would likely be because he’s an outspoken (and usually spot-on) liberal, while most MRAs seem to be entitled conservatives—mostly the libertarian and neoCon variety, since the Know-Nothings are more about “traditional families” (where the man is assumed to have all the rights).

Comment #85: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  04:28 PM

I had to vote for Flanagan.  Baldwin’s only parroting the programming he received from society.  Flanagan is… that gave me full body shudders and a desperate urge to hug my father for not being a creepy, virginity obsessed freak. 

Also, Mixed Content, I would like to congratulate you on the “Concern” Quadrifecta.  I am impressed.  I’ve never seen anyone hit all four of those talking points in one reply before, but I’m young.  My favorite, however, will always be “there are real things to be concerned about.”

Comment #86: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/22  at  04:36 PM

I haven’t voted yet, so I’ll put in my vote for Baldwin.  Just because he’s the more common type doesn’t make him any better.  Someone who would verbally abuse their own child, and then cry about not getting custody of that child is really scary.  Also, reading this sort of makes me wonder how Flanagan’s relationship was with her own father, and if that has influenced her views.  I hope for her sake that her father didn’t have mental incest with her, but how else did she not only come up with this idea, but think that it’s perfectly normal?

Comment #87: bananacat  on  04/22  at  04:42 PM

I would really love a study examining who really is responsible for the end of those marriages.  All of the divorces I’ve seen were initiated by the wife, but most of those marriages were, with absolutely no doubt, torpedoed by the husband.  It really seems like a lot of men have a big problem with taking the final steps in ending a relationship and will just leave it as another chore for women to take of.

Heh. Reminds me of my stupid stupid marriage. Constant almost begging him- now obsessed with work and probably some chick online to TALK to me about what was going on. Him suddenly announcing that he’s moving out - giving me less than a month to come up with rent on the old place- while trying to find a new place of my own that I could afford in Seattle (not easy). Then NOTHING. For 6 months. I waited it out- still wanting to at least be spoken to like a human being. Not knowing WTF was even going on. Then served with divorce papers - which was a relief but also very angry making.
Meh.
Stupid stupid marriage.

Comment #88: Danica Lefse Queen  on  04/22  at  04:51 PM

I need this now.  The article actually killed my appetite.

My mother grew up in a household where she was molested, and I was lucky enough that I had a father who was, you know, not a disgusting, creepy asshole, so this squicks me on a personal level both in that it is a nasty glorification of a worldview that ultimately ends in what happened to my mother (seriously, my grandfather raped her because he didn’t want her to be a “slut” like his sisters) and in its disgusting interpretation of what was, while not the best, a solid (and currently very good) relationship I shared (and share) with my father.  Flanagan by twenty miles.

Comment #89: Atheist Feminazi  on  04/22  at  04:54 PM

Well, I was about to say Baldwin, because “abusive asshole” trumps “disturbing electra complex” in that her particular genre of crazy affects fewer people, but then I read INTPagan’s comment. Flanagan it is.

Comment #90: Theaetetus  on  04/22  at  04:58 PM

After reading the article I vote for Flanagan.  She did come up with one paragraph that read true to me, about the effect of Baldwin’s repeated temper tantrums on the treatment he received by the California Family Court.

Baldwin’s fury at the system emanates from his belief that the institution is reflexively anti-father. Yet he also admits to having a terrible temper, and to having displayed this protean force in front of the very people authorized to decide his fate. Family court is charged with protecting the physical and emotional safety of children, and if you tend to rave during depositions, you’re not going to like the custody orders you get.

When I first heard the recorded rant at his daughter I thought, dude those anger management classes aren’t working; you are completely out of control.  Of course, learning that Kimmy leaked the recording to the press, thus ensuring that the daughter would not only be upset at her father’s ranting but also be humiliated in front of the world, put Basinger high on my creep list, too.  Jeez, lady, stick it up his ass in court; don’t parade it in public.

I also felt sad because I’ve long admired the work of both Basinger and Baldwin.  I keep making the mistake of thinking that dramatists’ talent at depicting the human condition means they have insight and can apply it to their own lives.  I made that same mistake with Woody Allen.

  “A straight-forward, run-of-the-mill asshole who unfortunately is one of the funniest people on TV.”

I think that often being a real-life arsehole (or being seriously screwed up in some other way) is a pre-requisite for being one of the funniest people on TV (which he is).

Gracchus on 04/22 at 11:35 AM

I guess that’s true, but still I end up overestimating them.

Comment #91: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/22  at  05:06 PM

I don’t have the patience to engage it anymore.

Caton

Come on, Caton, don’t you know that Rights are a zero sum game?
If you have rights then you’ve infringed on the inaliable right indowed by our creator that all men get to oppress those not equal to being men.

Comment #92: cynickal  on  04/22  at  05:14 PM

So, MIddle-aged Liberal, how do you feel about Baldwin’s decade of bullshit against Basinger? But, no, they’re both just as bad.

Baldwin is a liberal when it comes to mens’ issues. Women? What’s in it for him?

Comment #93: ginmar  on  04/22  at  06:00 PM

Everytime I see something by Flanagan, I think, “How does she keep getting work??” (I know the answer. But still.) Alec Baldwin may have only a minimal amount of value as a human being and/or a progressive, but at least he’s a decent actor. For unmitigated awfulness as a person/primate/vertebrate, Caitlin gets my vote.

Comment #94: Liz212  on  04/22  at  06:16 PM

I so don’t understand this sexualized view of father-daughter relationships. I share the gut-rumbling ewwww response to all of this.

While I’m used to reviewers seeing everything through the lens of their own experience, this took the cake. Flanagan wins.

I would like to hear Kim Basinger’s side. Descending as I do from two families of yellers, Baldwin’s voicemail was nothing startling to me.

Comment #95: Hector B.  on  04/22  at  06:34 PM

But I’m a little disappointed to see all the “Alec Baldwin is just a run of the mill MRA asshole” comments.  Like his entitled attitude and abusive behavior are mild annoyance,..

I think you have something there, D.

On another point, don’t miss one of the scariest parts of the original article:
“Caitlin Flanagan is the author of To Hell With All That (2006). She is at work on Girl Land, a book about the emotional life of pubescent girls.”

s.

Comment #96: slg  on  04/22  at  06:45 PM

Hector B, I wasn’t “startled” by Baldwin’s voicemail either. It just gave me flashbacks.

Comment #97: Liz212  on  04/22  at  07:02 PM

Baldwin is creepy by nature; Flanagan is creepy by training.  In that sense the honors are even.  But I vote for Flanagan because evey observation I’ve ever taken of her suggests that she’s participated avidly in said training, and has therefore colluded in her own creepiness. 

Baldwin is a man who was born creepy; Flanagan is a woman who has elected to embrace creepiness in (evident) preference to having it imposed upon her.  It’s not that I can’t sympathize, marginally, that kind of a decision, but still.  It’s a decision which places Flanagan in a category of creepiness entirely different and superior to Baldwin’s.

Flanagan wins.

(It’s lucky that today I actually do have stomach flu, because that lays down a baseline of physical sickness that it’s not really possible for me to exceed.)

Comment #98: bekabot  on  04/22  at  07:04 PM

So, MIddle-aged Liberal, how do you feel about Baldwin’s decade of bullshit against Basinger? But, no, they’re both just as bad.

ginmar on 04/22 at 05:00 PM

I really don’t rank them relative to each other.  I didn’t mean to imply her assholery was equivalent to his.  I’d like to read his book to see just how big a tool he is, but I’ll wait until it’s in a library somewhere or is available used, since I don’t want to contribute to his royalties.  I don’t blame her for striking back at him, but I do blame her for multiplying the potential damage to the kid by going public with the story.

Comment #99: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/22  at  07:09 PM

n his daughter a father discovers a person whose very bloodline ensures that she will be charming to him: at the precise moment that his wife is fading into middle age, her beauty resurges in the daughter—there’s that unlined face you fell in love with so long ago!

Flanagan, even if you buy her “it’s not incest” argument, is still arguing that all men are pederasts and that no man finds a woman middle-aged or later sexually attractive. 

That’s the kind of fucked up that gets my vote.

———-

Ashley, who looks just like her paternal aunt, grandfather, uncles, and father but bears almost no resemblance to her mother.

Goddammit Ashley!  It’s people like you who go screwing up great points made by intellectual giants like Flanagan and that evo-psych dorks who claims that women will naturally evolve to look more like Barbie while men naturally evolve to look like Ken.

Why oh why won’t genes play fair and control all the submissive behaviors and put them on the X chromosome?!?!?!111!

Comment #100: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/22  at  07:44 PM

It’s people like you who go screwing up great points made by intellectual giants like Flanagan and that evo-psych dorks who claims that women will naturally evolve to look more like Barbie while men naturally evolve to look like Ken.

It’s okay—I make up for Ashley by looking like my late mother’s twin.  It was very bizarre to watch home movies of her and realize I look exactly like her when she’s been dead for 30 years.

Comment #101: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  07:46 PM

Oh, wait - a Real Manly Father will never have changed his daughter’s nappy or stayed home with her when she’s got flu. Only in her teens, when she gets pretty enough, will she be worthy of his attention.

No, that would be a Real Pervy Father. Changing diapers and cuddling babies is not embarrassing. the way that thinking that your daughter is finally pretty enough would be.

Which reminds me of when a middle aged woman I met at a party raved, in effect, about how sexy her teenaged son was. C-R-E-E-P-Y.

Comment #102: Hector B.  on  04/22  at  08:00 PM

(As posted at the poll site, with grammar edits:)

Baldwin is a horrible person who is willfully ignorant of himself, and whose psychological problems baffle his own explanation, which he essentially dismisses with classic denial.  It little matters how he explains himself, or how creepy he makes it, for it is, at its core, denial.

Flannigan wins the creepy vote because she makes a great and creative effort to explain Baldwin’s behavior all by herself. Whatever references may be sounding in her head, her locus is the social construct that celebrities are to be celebrated and urges must be natural. Since celebration must be positive, any urges from the celebrated must be positive as well, and naturally so. Thus, she spent her time typing out an explanation that in the hands of Swift or Graham Chapman, would be hilariously absurd—but taken as if meant seriously would reduce the concept of a family to that of an animal brood, or a circle of Hell.

Baldwin doesn’t much care what we think of him, but Flannigan has obviously written this to encourage our acceptance.  She expects to be liked, too.  This is clearly creepier, and categorically the more immoral position.

Though The Atlantic might have earned a listing on pederasty and incest watchlists for publishing it. Their irresponsibility is a force multiplier in creep and evil, and would win the poll if they were a third choice.

Comment #103: Yamara  on  04/22  at  08:14 PM

Contested divorces with custody issues look painful.  If the parent with primary custody doesn’t like the parent without primary custody, the kids are going to pick this up.  I don’t think any of the MRA’s proposed legal reforms would change matters. It isn’t really a matter of the wisdom of the custody decision so much as the fact that there is a custody decision.

Comment #104: lemmy caution  on  04/22  at  08:38 PM

If the parent with primary custody doesn’t like the parent without primary custody, the kids are going to pick this up.

I think kids are pretty savvy.  An angry, bitter ex might be able to alienate the kids from the non-custodial parent over the short term, but I’m very skeptical, in the event the non-custodial parent is really supportive and loving, that the kids would be duped for very long.

Comment #105: keshmeshi  on  04/22  at  09:29 PM

An angry, bitter ex might be able to alienate the kids from the non-custodial parent over the short term, but I’m very skeptical, in the event the non-custodial parent is really supportive and loving, that the kids would be duped for very long.

With some exceptions, pretty much. Custody issues can be a complicated mess. But it’s fair to say that a certain segment of men involved in contentious custody disputes didn’t spend much time bonding with their kids before, are extremely concerned about property (kids) and control (wife) issues, and find the revealing of their not particularly close relationships with their kids in court to be extremely humiliating. Having an official finding that they’re not superstar dads with support staff known as wives pisses them off. It is maddening to deal with these men. The people who make a living promoting “parental alienation syndrome” are pretty close to scum of the earth in my book. These guys need serious therapy, not validation of their sense of entitlement.

Comment #106: vladimir  on  04/22  at  10:35 PM

Was there ever any confirmation of who released the tape? Because it sure was popular to blame in on Basinger.

Comment #107: ginmar  on  04/22  at  10:37 PM

Yeh, the date your daughter thing is yucky ... except that it does define a standard of treatment for chattel that may raise her standards.

Or it may just mean she goes for the quick fuck with douchebags and then marries the good guy when she’s ready to stop being a douchbag herself.

———————————————————

Whenever I hear that Baldwin call trotted out, I can see two sides to it ... like it is a facet of a very complicated situation.  He’s angry that she was a brat and didn’t keep her appointment as required for the nth time.  But he’s way too entitled about it and goes totally overboard with the verbal abuse, and Basinger was right to pull the recording and trot it to the judge.  If you care about your kids and and want to be with them, you don’t treat them like an entitlement.  Reminds me of my brother’s account of the last time his fiance’s abusive ex got to visit with the kids unsupervised.  Biodad, whose only interest in the kids was as pawns to punish their mother for kicking him out after years of abuse, threatened to spank one of the teen girls because she didn’t do some trivial thing immediately.  Her teen sister said “spanking a teen girl ... would that be form xxxx report of physical abuse?  Or form yyyy report of sexual abuse?”

Comment #108: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  11:16 PM

Being verbally and emotionally abusive makes Alec a crap dad and a crap human being: an entitled asshole. But the question was creepy, and Flanagan wrote creepiness that Edgar Allen Poe would envy. Only, creepily, she thinks she’s writing about good and natural relationships.

Once again, I am glad my father didn’t treat me differently for being a girl. There’s nothing ‘romantic’ about practicing baseball or basketball, or being shown how to check oil levels or fill out tax forms. But they were good skills to have, taught me I could do what I wanted to, and gave me a sense of fatherly guidance and approval that wasn’t based on gender conformity and looks.

Comment #109: Samantha Vimes  on  04/23  at  02:03 AM

I voted for Baldwin because I don’t really know Flanagan (though she does seem to be a bit creepy), but Baldwin did those Hulu commercials and he was plenty creepy.  At the very least, he’s a creep.

Comment #110: liberalrob  on  04/23  at  04:06 AM

You don’t get to complain about your rights when you already run everything. Think about listening to a slave master complain about how hard it is to be a slave master.

Comment #111: banisteriopsis  on  04/23  at  04:11 AM

“He’s angry that she was a brat and didn’t keep her appointment as required for the nth time.”

I’m uncomfortable with calling a child/teenager a brat for wanting to avoid contact with a verbally or emotionally abusive parent.

Comment #112: preying mantis  on  04/23  at  08:37 AM

Why oh why won’t genes play fair and control all the submissive behaviors and put them on the X chromosome?!?!?!111!

Because men also have an X chromosome, and it would be too complicated to put all the genes on the Y chromosome that are necessary to suppress the submissive behavior genes.  Also, the Y chromosome is too small to fit all of those suppression genes and all of the manly genes.  It’s really much easier to just train people from infancy to act a certain way (until you get a few cheaters who have to go and change everything).

Comment #113: bananacat  on  04/23  at  10:44 AM

“The terrifying thing to remember here is that Caitlin Flanagan has a son…”

Efreaking gad. I hope his soccer coach, or someone can be a positive role model. His mom, as has been pointed out before, thinks we menz are stupid, untrainable beasts. Kinda like a bison with less hair. His dad is a guy who thought having a kid with Caitlin Flanagan was a good idea.

I 765th the ‘ewwww’ on Flanagan.

Thank the randomness that I ended up with with a sane, feminist mother and a dad who wasn’t too proud to do laundry.

“You don’t get to complain about your rights when you already run everything. Think about listening to a slave master complain about how hard it is to be a slave master.”

Rap that and you can win an Oscar.

Comment #114: witless chum  on  04/23  at  11:41 AM

“The terrifying thing to remember here is that Caitlin Flanagan has a son…”

I just hope that he doesn’t start to become handsome at the same time his father becomes noticeably old…

Comment #115: bananacat  on  04/23  at  11:59 AM

The terrifying thing to remember here is that Caitlin Flanagan has a son…

actually, she has twin boys…

double the creepiness.

Comment #116: sophiefair  on  04/23  at  01:29 PM

One Person: Also, Mixed Content, I would like to congratulate you on the “Concern” Quadrifecta.  I am impressed.  I’ve never seen anyone hit all four of those talking points in one reply before, but I’m young.  My favorite, however, will always be “there are real things to be concerned about.”*

Shorter: “Oh Gawd, you’re so uncool”.  Too bad “shallow” only ever gets up to a unifecta.

Another Person: 1) There’s nothing wrong with men having rights.  I’m a man and I kinda like having rights.  But the Men’s Rights Movement isn’t about men’s rights, it’s about punishing women.

OK, well, if so, then it’s fucked up.  But the idea that a woman couldn’t possibly abuse a man’s rights, or that cultural stupid is always and only pro-male, and never the opposite—that seems unlikely on its face.  And in fact, men have, less so now, but historically, been prevented from any but financial involvement (which was coerced by law) in their children’s lives following a divorce.  Some men actually don’t like that pure sperm-donor (and money-donor) role.

2) There may be all sorts of excuses for emotionally abusing your daughter at a difficult time in your life, but I can’t think of any good excuses.

When you say, “emotionallly abusing,” do you mean, “yelling insulting things on a phone message?”  Because on the spectrum of emotional abuse, I think that’s near the bottom end.  Was it correct parenting?  Obviously not, and I’m pretty sure Baldwin cops to that, though consistent with #4 in my list, I admit to not following the story in obsessive detail.

3) I think that knowing the depths I can sink to if I’m not careful is valuable knowledge, though I could never be proud of how it was won.  Perhaps the measure of a person is not in the mistakes themselves, but in how they respond to their mistakes.  Do they learn from them, or repeat them?  Does Alec Baldwin apologize for his behavior, or try to excuse it?

Well, sure, and especially if you’re copping to that potential within yourself.  This article strikes me more as a kind of hyperventilating, attack-of-the-vapors scapegoating.  Sure, maybe Alec Baldwin’s an asshole, I don’t know the whole story or its context, but maybe he is.  Some people make that observation and feel a little better about themselves, at least for a few seconds.  As if Alec Baldwin were able to take on, in a way, some of whatever moral stain they believe they themselves carry.

As for Baldwin’s apologies or excuses, they’re nothing to me, because the man’s a stranger to me. Is his daughter really going to suffer relative to the average person in the world, or even in the US, due to having a volatile sometimes-butthead for a father?  If so, then others should perhaps become involved, but I think that should start with her mother and the courts.  Now, if *that* isn’t happening correctly, then something is seriously f’d up, even if not particularly surprising.

But I am suspicious of paying attention to the lives of prominent people as if they had anything to do with our own lives.  An awful lot of that is vanity and projection.

4) Most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time, and many of us are interested in serious moral questions, illustrated with real-life examples.

Oh, well, serious moral questions, guv’na.  I’m, sorry, I must have been in the Gents’ when you were having that conversation.  I thought we were talking about which Media Kewl Kid was creepier.

*(I’d do the cool “surround text w/a rectangle” thing if I knew the secret handshake…)

Comment #117: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  04:26 PM

You don’t get to complain about your rights when you already run everything. Think about listening to a slave master complain about how hard it is to be a slave master.
banisteriopsis on 04/23 at 03:11 AM

I guess you’re referring to “men’s rights,” because I didn’t find anything in the comments thread that seemed to give your comment any more context, but come on, this isn’t the 1970s.  If “men” “run everything,” especially “white men,” then presumably I should be able to hit up Bill Gates, as a fellow “white man,” to spot me a mil for this thing I want to do…

“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.” —Proverbs for Paranoids, Thomas Pynchon.

“Men run everything” is the answer to one of those wrong questions.  But if that’s not the slave master you mean, please clarify.

And I have to quibble: “when you already run everything,” you get to do whatever the hell you want, y’know?

Comment #118: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  04:43 PM

Some men actually don’t like that pure sperm-donor (and money-donor) role.

Then either keep it in your pants, or make arrangements so that the sperm-donor role becomes irrelevant.  Since medical science seems unlikely to come up with a safe, efficient, male contraceptive in a pill or implant, deal with the reality of the situation.

As for the money-donor role, the cost of stupidity is never cheap.

FWIW, it’s called blockquote.

Comment #119: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/23  at  04:46 PM

Some men actually dont like that pure sperm-donor (and money-donor) role.

Then either keep it in your pants, or make arrangements so that the sperm-donor role becomes irrelevant.  Since medical science seems unlikely to come up with a safe, efficient, male contraceptive in a pill or implant, deal with the reality of the situation.

What “arrangements” are you referring to?  How does a sperm-donor role become irrelevant?  What are you actually saying here, that a child ought to belong, always and only, to the mother, and the father should go fuck himself?  My, that’s enlightened.

I’m not talking about unintended pregnancies, I’m talking about children conceived consensually, or at least brought to term in a spirit of shared commitment.  Some people stay together over the next 18 or so years, and some don’t.  Of those who don’t, some are able to separate without demonizing their partners, and some aren’t.  Of those who aren’t, it used to be that pretty much all of them got a decree from the court awarding custody to the mother and very limited visitation rights to the father, while the father was saddled with significant child support obligations.  The court said, you can’t ever see your child, or rarely—you’re pretty much just a source of money.

These days, it’s increasingly recognized that fathers have a role to play in their children’s lives beyond the night (or day) of conception.  A role as a person, not just as a bank account.

As for the money-donor role, the cost of stupidity is never cheap.

What stupidity?  Are you saying that only a stupid man would ever become a father?  It’s tempting to say that in your case the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, but I’m trying not to be nasty, so I won’t say that.  Because I’m sorry you were raped and abused by your father, and that every male of your species that you’ve ever met has treated you like crap.  Really, I can see it’s had a bad effect on you.

Blockquote.  I don’t know how much you know about html, but blockquote doesn’t universally act the way it does here.

Comment #120: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  05:18 PM

When you say, “emotionallly abusing,” do you mean, “yelling insulting things on a phone message?” Because on the spectrum of emotional abuse, I think that’s near the bottom end.

I realize this may not be clear: when I say “bottom end,” I don’t mean the most despicable, I mean the weakest, the least burdensome or problematic.

Comment #121: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  05:30 PM

MixedContent: And in fact, men have, less so now, but historically, been prevented from any but financial involvement (which was coerced by law) in their children’s lives following a divorce.  Some men actually don’t like that pure sperm-donor (and money-donor) role.

Huh. Then you’d think “some men” might participate in their childrens’ lives. Or is this that “divorced women prevent their good-hearted exes from seeing their children” thing? Because that’s pure horseshit. Please, no anecdata about your friend with the crazy ex who keeps the children, the poor, fatherless children, from their very own daddy out of pure woman-evil!!1!

MixedContent: What “arrangements” are you referring to?  How does a sperm-donor role become irrelevant?  What are you actually saying here, that a child ought to belong, always and only, to the mother, and the father should go fuck himself?  My, that’s enlightened.

Men, as has been pointed out to you, have the full agency of being human. This may include, but is not limited to, the (absolutely cost-free!) ability to maintain a relationship via telephone, email, text messaging and in person with their offspring. It mght include such things as visiting, housing, tending to, caretaking and seeing to the needs of their children, without their mother present. As, you know, fathers.

Comment #122: mir  on  04/23  at  10:29 PM

you’d think “some men” might participate in their childrens’ lives.

Um, some me do.  On my planet, anyway—I suppose yours may be different.

Or is this that “divorced women prevent their good-hearted exes from seeing their children” thing? Because that’s pure horseshit. Please, no anecdata about your friend with the crazy ex who keeps the children, the poor, fatherless children, from their very own daddy out of pure woman-evil!!1!

OK, wasn’t planning on it, especially the more worked-up part at the end, but sure.  And by the same token, no denial on your part that such a thing has ever happened, because no woman has ever, in the history of the world, been other than angelic.  No claim that all evil in the world resides in the Y chromosome.  Deal?

Men, as has been pointed out to you, have the full agency of being human. This may include, but is not limited to, the (absolutely cost-free!) ability to maintain a relationship via telephone, email, text messaging and in person with their offspring. It mght include such things as visiting, housing, tending to, caretaking and seeing to the needs of their children, without their mother present. As, you know, fathers.

?? Your point is…?

Full agency of being human, can communicate in various ways, might include, etc.  w/o mother present.  Which speaks to what?  Who disputes any of this?  What does this have to do with a sperm-donor role becomeing irrelevant, or were you making some other point?

“I know of men who are assholes” is not the same statement as “All men are assholes.”  “I know of men who father children, take no responsibility for them, and have to be tracked down by the law” is not the same statement as “men, in every instance, don’t give a rat’s ass about their children.”  Or the same statement qualified with “following a divorce.”  I don’t doubt the first statement (of either set) for a microsecond.  The second (& third) statements are just plain wrong.

Comment #123: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  11:39 PM

“some men do”.  Me and my fat fingers.

Comment #124: MixedContent  on  04/23  at  11:40 PM

Yeah, that’s nice, MC, but it’s not reality. BTW, ‘OMG, not all men are evil, YA KNOW!’ is classic MRA bullshit.

Comment #125: ginmar  on  04/24  at  12:49 AM

Yeah, that’s nice, MC, but it’s not reality.

Sure it’s reality.  You make a sweeping generalization with no backup, and I make one in return.  Fantastic fun.

BTW, ‘OMG, not all men are evil, YA KNOW!’ is classic MRA bullshit.

Well, it’s an obvious, innocuous, true statement.  How does that become bullshit?  Other than by the person hearing it being insane I mean.

Comment #126: MixedContent  on  04/24  at  03:45 AM

“Since medical science seems unlikely to come up with a safe, efficient, male contraceptive in a pill or implant, deal with the reality of the situation.”

They did, at least a few years ago.  Unfortunately, medical capitalism has deemed male HBC a non-starter.

Comment #127: preying mantis  on  04/24  at  09:10 AM

It’s a classic dodge, MC. Not that you’re debating this in good faith. Your sweeping generalizations, by the way, are much in the vein of whites whining, “But there’s no NAAWP!”

  “Not all men are evil, YA KNOW!” is whipped by MRAs who think women will cringe at the thought of being hairy-legged, man-hating, ball-chomping feminazis, when in fact nobody’s said they hate all men, and it’s pretty clear that the discussion is limited to assholes. Guys who secretly suspect that they’re assholes or that men in general are in fact assholes respond defensively. See also: rape discussions.

This is a feminist site, MC. I don’t need to re-invent the wheel for some n00b. You could read through the damned archives if you had any interest in feminism or, you know, reality, but instead you’re mouthing MRA bullshit.  Lemme see, what kind of impression does that make?

Comment #128: ginmar  on  04/24  at  06:56 PM

You don’t seem to like that you can’t find a coherent logical response to what I’ve said, so you want to call me names and say stuff that’s utterly irrelevant.

What’s a classic dodge?  If it’s so classic, surely you have a response worked out by now, other than slinging labels and insults. 

And as for sweeping generalizations, I’m pointing them out in what other people say.  How about if you pick something I said, that you think is a “sweeping generalization,” and say what you think is overgeneral.  Then I can respond in some way.  I know, so old-school, this rational discussion stuff.

By “this is a feminist site,” do you mean that it’s for spewing vitriol without regard for whether it makes any sense?  For espousing only approved opinions?  Because I know that’s how a lot of the Limbaugh crowd would like to think about feminism, but it’s strange to hear coming from someone who (I gather) would self-identify as a feminist.

The impression it makes, since you ask, is that you’re trying to appear as kind of an idiot, whether you are one or not.

Comment #129: MixedContent  on  04/25  at  11:27 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.