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Next entry: The invisible, inaudible Bishop Gene Robinson Previous entry: The End Of An Era

Diamond orgasms are a girl’s best friend

Sometimes when I’m reading stories people send me about the pseudo-scientific claims of evolutionary psychologists,* I’m compelled to ponder the power of a media that can create a “science” almost strictly by its lonesome.  Most sciences evolve from get-your-hands-dirty research-discovery-more-research cycles, but evo psych evolved to meet the need of the media to have a constant influx of stories justifying sexism through “science”.  Because it’s a whole lot easier to get media attention to your work if your conclusions are that women are (fill in misogynist stereotype) and/or men are slaves to certain sexual signals that make it biologically impossible to treat women as they would someone they considered a full human being.**  If you actually did some solid research with physical evidence of bona fide evolved traits in this species or that—-which happens all the time, actually—-there’s very little chance of you getting an article celebrating your hard work in the mainstream media.  If you do some half-assed research and draw some shaky conclusions that make a number of unlikely assumptions, but you confirm someone’s misogynist beliefs, prepare for your phone to ring off the hook.

The latest misogynist stereotype confirmed*** by evo psych wanks is the belief that women are shallow gold diggers that don’t really know what love is.  “Women are born whores,” is quite possibly the favorite sacred belief of evolutionary psychology.  (Hat tip, Roxanne, for emailing me this.)

Scientists have found that the pleasure women get from making love is directly linked to the size of their partner’s bank balance.

They found that the wealthier a man is, the more frequently his partner has orgasms.

“Women’s orgasm frequency increases with the income of their partner,” said Dr Thomas Pollet, the Newcastle University psychologist behind the research.


Wow!  Really?  Well, we always knew that women couldn’t help it—-Marilyn Monroe told me so.

We don’t really need evidence.  We have this song as a lead that says some scientists “proved” it, and that’s good enough.  But for shits and giggles, let’s take a look at the rest of the article.

He and Nettle tested that idea using data gathered in one of the world’s biggest lifestyle studies. The Chinese Health and Family Life Survey targeted 5,000 people across China for in-depth interviews about their personal lives, including questions about their sex lives, income and other factors. Among these were 1,534 women with male partners whose data was the basis for the study.

They found that 121 of these women always had orgasms during sex, while 408 more had them “often”. Another 762 “sometimes” orgasmed while 243 had them rarely or never. Such figures are similar to those for western countries.

There were of course, several factors involved in such differences but, said Pollet, money was one of the main ones.

He said: “Increasing partner income had a highly positive effect on women’s self-reported frequency of orgasm. More desirable mates cause women to experience more orgasms.”

Okay, so they gave some numbers of the total number of women self-reporting orgasms to make this seem very number-heavy, but they didn’t actually show the correlation between income and orgasm, which of course is the relevant data we care about.  But let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and say they showed some correlation, however small.  What they’ve proven is that in China there’s this correlation.  I fail to see how the behavior of Chinese people proves anything about biological programming, since everyone there is subject to the same culture.

Here’s the thing—-you know what else correlates with wealth?  Health.  It’s been demonstrated, and not through hazy surveys but actual physical evidence, that your wealth can have a huge impact on your health outcomes.  People with more money have better food, better housing, better health care, and less stress.  This last one is discussed in a recent Radiolab, where they talked about how a certain gland in your neck was much bigger in the poor because it grew in response to stress levels.  Now, who here thinks that the varying levels of health and stress between income ranges might have an effect on the orgasm rate?  We also know the divorce rate goes down when a community’s median income goes up.  Who here things that satisfaction with marriage due to lack of fighting over money might make it easier for women to achieve orgasm?

But wait!  There’s cross-cultural studies, or something like them!

This is not an effect limited to Chinese women. Previous research in Germany and America has looked at attributes such as body symmetry and attractiveness, finding that these are also linked with orgasm frequency. Money, however, seems even more important.

If you read that quickly, it seems that they’re saying that there’s been other studies about orgasm and income.  But if you actually read it again with care, it seems that it actually says that there have been other studies about other things, but then there’s this study that says that money is more important, a claim that wasn’t, as far as I can tell, even addressed by the other studies.  In fact, this paragraph is more about justifying the existence of evolutionary psychology by pointing out that there’s a lot of studies done that this particular writer vaguely recalls reading about. 

Hey, at least the scientists in the actual study argue that women’s orgasms might be something that exist for women’s pleasure, which would, in turn, encourage women to have sex.  That would seem obvious, but to misogyny promoter David Buss—-who turns up like a bad penny in all these stories—-can’t even go so far as to admit that women’s pleasure might be about women. 

David Buss, professor of psychology at the University of Texas, Austin, who raised this question in his book The Evolution of Desire believes female orgasms have several possible purposes.

“They could promote emotional bonding with a high-quality male or they could serve as a signal that women are highly sexually satisfied, and hence unlikely to seek sex with other men,” he said. “What those orgasms are saying is ‘I’m extremely loyal, so you should invest in me and my children’.”

That’s right, ladies.  Male orgasms are about making men want to have sex.  And female orgasms are about making men want to have sex.  It’s unclear if Buss grasps that women have feelings at all, or if he thinks we’re robots programmed to expertly exploit hapless men who are ruled by their dicks. 

*By the way, every single time I write something on this subject, I get at least one email from a man who feels hurt that I don’t take evo psych claims about how they’re biologically incapable, as men, from seeing women as people, but that’s okay, because biology programmed women to be exploitative monsters.  It’s a puzzling phenomenon.  If it’s true that nature requires them to see me only as a waist-to-hip ratio, why do they care what I think?  I’m only half kidding.  What’s really funny about it is how hurt they are.  One of the major functions of evo psych is to give Nice Guys® blanket permission to act out their masculinity fetishes by being assholes, I guess.

**Look, I’m not the one saying that men can’t feel that someone they’re attracted to is a full human being.  But that’s the subtext of so many evo psych claims. 

***If by “confirmed”, you mean, “not proven at all, but asserted by someone with a title, so I can badger my girlfriend and women at parties with ‘proof’ that they suck, and enjoy watching them quietly take it by utter submission or feeble defenses that are constrained by their social conditioning to be peacemakers”, then indeed it’s confirmed.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:40 PM • (125) Comments

“Scientists have found that the pleasure women get from making love is directly linked to the size of their partner’s bank balance.’ Wow do I ever feel sorry for my poor wife. I only make some 20k a year. :-(

Comment #1: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/19  at  01:48 PM

I’d publish my own findings, which actually suggest an inverse relationship between orgasm and partner income, but my sample size is too small and it’s not considered ethical to experiment on yourself.

It didn’t hurt that the poor guy actually paid attention to what he was doing, whereas the rich guy just kept making it till I faked it.  Worked for him until I dumped his ass.

Comment #2: Kyso K  on  01/19  at  01:52 PM

Wow, Michael, you’ve proven the point of this post, which is that misogynists read the lead paragraph, have their worst opinions about women confirmed, and move on.  And you’ve got an excuse to blame her because you won’t go down, to boot!  Just remember, ladies, it’s not about fear and loathing of women.  It’s about the BAYBEEZ.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  01:55 PM

Oh, come on!  A female orgasm?  Scientists have discovered such a thing?

In all seriousness, I doubt my wife and I are the only ones who realize that we have more—and better—sex when we’re on vacation than when we’re trying to make time for each other in the midst of a busy work week.  As rich people can typically take more time for leisurely pursuits (and don’t have the crushing, stressful fear that Bank of America is going to lower the credit limit on their Visa and raise the interest rate so that they suddenly find themselves over the limit when they thought they were fine), it stands to reason, I think, that rich people (men and women alike, I imagine) would find it easy to relax and have orgasm after orgasm after orgasm.

Comment #4: Bradley  on  01/19  at  01:56 PM

“One of the major functions of evo psych is to give Nice Guys® blanket permission to act out their masculinity fetishes by being assholes, I guess. “

So far, this is its ONLY function.  I wouldn’t suggest holding one’s breath to be proven wrong.  You’ll pass out long before anything of value comes out of Psuedo-science Sexism Justification - uh, I mean, evo psych.

Comment #5: Gypsy Lee  on  01/19  at  01:56 PM

of course, people are also going to misconstrue the term phrase “during sex” as meaning, in fact, “during exclusively penetrative intercourse.” these are conditions under which most women will not, in fact, have orgasms.

Comment #6: prof anon  on  01/19  at  01:57 PM

What a load of pseudo-scientific rubbish.

More interestingly….

There were 1,534 women with male partners whose data was the basis for the study.

They found that 121 of these women always had orgasms during sex, while 408 more had them “often”. Another 762 “sometimes” orgasmed while 243 had them rarely or never.

So just over a third of the reporting women had orgasms during sex either “always” or “often”  while almost 16% NEVER had them.

I am hoping this is not typical in China, or anywhere else for that matter.  And what about the chinese women with female partners?

Comment #7: Randomizer  on  01/19  at  01:58 PM

Wow, Michael, you’ve proven the point of this post, which is that misogynists read the lead paragraph, have their worst opinions about women confirmed, and move on.  And you’ve got an excuse to blame her because you won’t go down, to boot!  Just remember, ladies, it’s not about fear and loathing of women.  It’s about the BAYBEEZ.

Amanda Marcotte on 01/19 at 11:55 AM

I was trying to be funny. I should know by now that I am not funny whin I am trying to be funny. :-(
I do not think women are so shallow Amanda.

Comment #8: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/19  at  01:59 PM

Here’s the thing—-you know what else correlates with wealth?  Health.

True.  Know what else correlates with wealth?  Age.  This is just me thinking out loud, mind you, but it seems to me that you will find a large wealth differential between your average 20-year-old male and your average 40-year-old male.

And YMMV, but it also seems to me that experience is a great teacher in all things, including skill at sex.

Comment #9: elmo  on  01/19  at  01:59 PM

Did they control their findings for the woman’s income? Women in China work, usually. And we all know that having money makes you a lot more comfortable and relaxed and able to orgasm; as does being an equal earning partner in a relationship. But maybe they didn’t bother testing that… after all, how relevant is women’s independence to evo-psych?

I love the final conclusion in that article about how orgasms in women must have evolved to send a signal to men. The most obvious explanation to me is “more orgasms=more sex=more chance of having kids”, which would seem a pretty strong evolutionary pressure, but no! It would appear the egg-heads in evo-psych central have decided its because orgasms signify female loyalty!

Also Amanda, that comment about chinese women’s equality and orphanages seems an awful lot like a racist throwaway line to me, a stereotype that really isn’t needed and probably isn’t true.

Comment #10: flashheart  on  01/19  at  02:00 PM

Richer people are likely to have more free time, and therefore can have more fufilling intercourse.

Richer people are likely to be more empowered to choose their partner, resulting in a more satisfying sex life.

Richer people are more likely to be more open to a variety of sexual practices, making sex better.

Richer people are likely to just be plain better educated on how to have good sex.

I could probably come out with a dozen more if I wanted. But hey, we all know correlation equal correlation and it must be the sweet smell of old $10 (1000 yuan?) notes.

Why bother to even think about confounds or do anything else expected from real science? So long as the media lap it up the money keeps rolling in!

Comment #11: Tinter  on  01/19  at  02:00 PM

All you seem to do is ramble and grumble.

If you have some evidence that the scientists that conducted this are frauds or their methodology is faulty, please say so.

Comment #12: Papertiger  on  01/19  at  02:00 PM

Hm, I could have been such a cheap date, I guess, but my husband married me all the same. If only he’d read that article sooner.

Did Forbes magazine get a Cosmo editor or something? I can see the article title on the cover next to a cheesecake pose of Warren Buffett.

“Make your woman crazy in bed—our financial guide to bedroom success!”

“Is that a Benjamin in your wallet, or is she just happy to see you?”

“Your wealth and her pleasure: move over, simple prostitution!”

Comment #13: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/19  at  02:01 PM

Correlation equals causation, stupid me with my rant on and typing without thought =(

Comment #14: Tinter  on  01/19  at  02:02 PM

Dude, you were screaming in other threads about how you want to take away my basic right to bodily autonomy because of my sexual choices, Michael.  I’m not the one taking out my issues on the basic rights of others, so fuck off.

papertiger, I’m about to take a stick rule poll on you, because you might be the dumbest motherfucker who ever trolled this blog.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:03 PM

rich people can typically take more time for leisurely pursuits

But, but, I thought rich people were rich because they work harder than the rest of us!

Comment #16: Auguste  on  01/19  at  02:03 PM

flash, China is better than us in some ways, and worse.  But I’m not going to pretend they aren’t a patriarchy just as much as the rest of us.  And I’m not going to pretend that they don’t have massive amounts of poverty.  I stated as much in the post.  Sexism and poverty are realities in most places, and they influence choices.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:05 PM

Pollster: “How often do you orgasm during sex?”
Spouse: “With my husband or the pool boy?” / “With my wife or the secretary?”
Pollster: “Uh… let’s just take the average.”

Maybe its just because I’m a middle-income twenty-something guy, but this sounds a lot less like “Women are whores” and a lot more like “Sucks to be poor, suckers!”  To the men, it says that the new Porche you just bought yourself is all your woman really needs.  To the women, it says “Quit looking for real love, just fuck the biggest bank account, and you’ll be happy.”

It’s an exercise in shallow idiocy based on the flimsiest of evidence that might still be taken seriously.  And it all boils down to “Rich people are better (than you)”.  At any rate, it hits me much more as classism than sexism, but that’s just from my angle.

Comment #18: Zifnab25  on  01/19  at  02:06 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but I googled “stick rule” and didn’t find anything that looked like it might apply.  What is the stick rule?

Comment #19: Rumblelizard  on  01/19  at  02:07 PM

Well, I agree that’s the likelier explanation, Zif, but the article’s conclusion was that women are born to be gold diggers.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:07 PM

You have to be as smart as this stick to comment here.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:09 PM

“If you have some evidence that the scientists that conducted this are frauds or their methodology is faulty, please say so.”

Papertiger, have you thought of READING and COMPREHENDING the article?  Amanda listed the things that the article in question did not address, making their study meaningless.  But, I guess like most idiots I’ve come across, you read only what you want to read.

Comment #22: Ursula  on  01/19  at  02:09 PM

Oh for fuck’s sake.

What our thick-as-a-stick troll calls “rambling and grumbling” -  suggesting alternative explanations for findings, pointing out unjustified or unstated assumptions, questioning the wider applicability of results drawn from a particular set of observations - IS SCIENCE.  In this post, Amanda is doing pretty much what I as a scientist get paid to do, with a bit less stats and a lot more wit.

Comment #23: MissPrism  on  01/19  at  02:10 PM

LOL, thanks Amanda!  I thought it might be something like that, but it’s best to be sure.  :D

Comment #24: Rumblelizard  on  01/19  at  02:11 PM

Every time you post one of these evo psych debunkings, the first thing the pops into head is, “wait a minute, when did psychology become a science?”

Comment #25: Todd  on  01/19  at  02:12 PM

My “stick rule” vote:

Dumber. Waaaaaaayyyyy dumber.

Comment #26: atheist  on  01/19  at  02:13 PM

“All you seem to do is ramble and grumble. “

Or, in other words, paper tiger’s unending privilege resulted in a comfy, carefree and coddled life which has rendered him incapable of empathy or, oddly enough, reading comprehension.

He’s desperate for your attention though, Amanda. I think he LIKES you, likes you.  wink

Comment #27: Gypsy lee  on  01/19  at  02:15 PM

“But, but, I thought rich people were rich because they work harder than the rest of us!”
Auguste


Don’t be silly.
They’re worth more because they’re worth more.
Reread Atlas Shrugged and it will all be clear again.
Alan Greenspan said so.

Comment #28: smartalek  on  01/19  at  02:15 PM

Todd, there are psychologists who do legitimate research, but it’s a lot more intense and controlled than, “Women married to rich men have more orgasms, therefore it’s an evolved and biological trait.”

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:18 PM

>>So just over a third of the reporting women had orgasms during sex either “always” or “often” while almost 16% NEVER had them.

>>I am hoping this is not typical in China, or anywhere else for that matter.

These numbers don’t seem atypical to me. That’s what my ex partners self-reported regarding their sex lives prior to meeting me. I won’t discuss what the numbers were after meeting me, as here is not the place to brag. raspberry But it’s surprising how just a little consideration for women as human beings rather than sex dolls tend to dramatically increase those numbers.

The general numbers, though, are very depressing. I think men typically enjoy ‘often’ or better rates of orgasms, so hearing what the numbers are for women might be shocking to a lot of them.

Comment #30: BlackBloc  on  01/19  at  02:19 PM

From “30 Rock”:

Dr. Spaceman: Have I given you my new book? It’s about having a satisfying love life, for life.

(Holds up book titled “You’re Doing It Wrong”.)

Dr. Spaceman: My techniques guarantee male orgasm.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:23 PM

Todd, there are psychologists who do legitimate research, but it’s a lot more intense and controlled than, “Women married to rich men have more orgasms, therefore it’s an evolved and biological trait.”

Worth noting, when you are born your father is usually a lot richer than you are.  So this could just be an expression of the Oedipus complex.  Quick, someone book me on the Today Show.  I am now a pop psychologist.

Comment #32: Zifnab25  on  01/19  at  02:23 PM

I know Amanda, everywhere is sexist, but I think when one comments about countries which are very different to and very far from your own, one liners about the status of women just come across as racist. For example, I don’t know much about china but I’m under the impression that the phenomenon you mention is a problem only in poor rural areas of the South; it’s typically a problem in farming communities and it reflects a very real and difficult choice for those parents in the face of a very harsh Government policy (the one child policy) which is not intended from a necessarily particularly patriarchal perspective. I also suspect your information is old. China is too vast, diverse and rapidly changing for women’s rights there to be summarised by a western blogger in one sentence, and unless really strictly necessary it just doesn’t come across well.

Women’s income is highly correlated with their partners. I find it really amusing that these people are talking about the man’s, and not the household’s, income.

Comment #33: flashheart  on  01/19  at  02:25 PM

re: David Buss Quote (”“They could promote emotional bonding with a high-quality male or they could serve as a signal that women are highly sexually satisfied, and hence unlikely to seek sex with other men,” he said. “What those orgasms are saying is ‘I’m extremely loyal, so you should invest in me and my children.”)

What an incredibly convoluted explanation for something that seems so simple.

What’s next? How about: Why does fat taste good?
Because early humans developed to have an interest in culling herds of fatty animals to prevent overgrazing, and practiced proto-agriculture by eating nuts and seeds, thus limiting certain plant species from taking over. Thus, humans developed a taste for fatty foods as an evolutionary strategy to control their physical environment.

Comment #34: dogcat  on  01/19  at  02:25 PM

Also worth noting…  As a man and a Catholic, I can achieve orgasm by seeing images in a piece of burnt toast or a dented car fender.  Admittedly, if I actually have an orgasm, I go straight to hell.

Comment #35: Zifnab25  on  01/19  at  02:26 PM

Well, it’s not intended, and I went out of my way to point out it’s different in different places. I guess I should have gone with a generic, “Cultures differ and this is a culture-specific study,” but it felt intellectually dishonest and dodgy.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:29 PM

If it’s that giant of a distraction from the main point, I’ll take it out.  I’ll value clarity over trying to tease out every possibility.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:29 PM

“They could promote emotional bonding with a high-quality male or they could serve as a signal that women are highly sexually satisfied, and hence unlikely to seek sex with other men,” he said. “What those orgasms are saying is ‘I’m extremely loyal, so you should invest in me and my children’.”

Incidentally, I had an insecure partner who preferred me NOT to orgasm because he felt it meant I was more likely to cheat and be disloyal. Because if you like sex, you will like sex with anyone, not just your lifemate.

That used to be the Official Christian Doctrine of many churches, before female orgasm became too popular to keep trying to deny it.

But, oh yeah, I still have psychological scars from the experience, thanks, Christianity.

Comment #38: Essie the Elephant  on  01/19  at  02:34 PM

hmm, so what’s the deal if we can have orgasms all by ourselves?
We like our own bank accounts?

Comment #39: tinat  on  01/19  at  02:35 PM

“They could promote emotional bonding with a high-quality male or they could serve as a signal that women are highly sexually satisfied, and hence unlikely to seek sex with other men,” he said. “What those orgasms are saying is ‘I’m extremely loyal, so you should invest in me and my children.”

One could make just as good an argument that female orgasms would signal to males that the women were highly insatiable, and therefore dangerously un-controllable and disloyal. There are definitely traditions which take this point of view on female orgasm. This Buss guy isn’t too impressive.

Comment #40: atheist  on  01/19  at  02:37 PM

For what it’s worth, I have very little doubt in my mind that Americans would slip into the same female abandonment problem given the same circumstances.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:38 PM

So if women are now officially hardwired to be goldiggers, I suppose men just have to put up with it, and like it smile

Comment #42: Michelle  on  01/19  at  02:39 PM

And, incidentally, my best (and current) partner is the highest earner I’ve been with. I think, besides the reasons Amanda listed, there’s one other valid reason to consider, which is that the qualities that set him apart in his office set him apart in general (imaginative, hard work, willingness to listen).

Comment #43: Essie the Elephant  on  01/19  at  02:41 PM

...the first thing the pops into head is, “wait a minute, when did psychology become a science?”

When it’s to your advantage, of course.

It’s the APA and all those brilliant scientists’ decision that is trotted out when discussing homosexual rights.

Of course, when it’s not to your advantage such as this study…....not so much.

Comment #44: Papertiger  on  01/19  at  02:41 PM

Bye, paper.  You haven’t, not once, actually engaged any real arguments made, and as such, you’ve violated the stick rule and the thread jacking rule too much.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:42 PM

Yes Amanda. My friends and I if we could would take away a woman “right” to have an abortion or to use some forms of contraceptives. I dont doubt that many here would call me a misogynist. All fine and good. Feel free to tell me to *%&# off as much as you like.  I may not like it yet this is your blog.

Just understand pls that I dont think women are shallow creatures who solely seek out a m8 due to the size of their partner’s bank balance.

Comment #46: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/19  at  02:43 PM

“Also Amanda, that comment about chinese women’s equality and orphanages seems an awful lot like a racist throwaway line to me, a stereotype that really isn’t needed and probably isn’t true.
flashheart on 01/19 at 12:00 PM”

Ooh, someones been taking the Republican correspondence course in developing a wedge issue between progressive voices. Like in Prop 8, its all the Black Folks fault. Let’s push that Faux News as much as possible; get Dan Savage in a heated moment shoot himself in the foot. Blacks vs. Gays (forget that there are Black Gays). So, now you’re pushing, Flashheart, that Amanda is racist for pointing out that Chinese orphanges are mostly for girls. Let’s see, of the four families I know who have adopted Chinese Babies and of all the Amnesty International reports (let alone popular media, like Dateline), have I ever seen/heard of an orphange in China with a ratio of girls to boys that reflects the general population? Wait, NO, NO ONE HAS! Crazy, maybe its not some racist stereotype but an actual demographic representation of orphanges in China! Wow, the fact that all of these girls are Chinese doesn’t somehow do away with the ingrained misogyny and undervaluation of women and girls. We undervalue women and girls too, don’t get me wrong, that’s because we live under patriarchy, just like the Chinese! We’re onto you, Wedgitarians—you showed your hand early in this round of rebranding/media manipulation of the Right.

Comment #47: Thealogian  on  01/19  at  02:43 PM

I’ve no doubt it’s not a distraction and it’s just me grinding my own little axe. Western liberal politics is too prone to dismissive comparisons of “their” rights with “ours”, which is challenging enough when comparing Canada and the US, let alone somewhere as opaque to western observation as China. I sometimes lose sight of the main focus of an article when I see this process in action…:(

atheist, I’m sure that the argument you just presented could be used equally well by evo-psych nutters to argue that women are bad and men must control them. There’s no way that Buss guy was going to reach any other conclusion - the body of his argument is really just irrelevant fluff, like all evo-psych experiments.

Comment #48: flashheart  on  01/19  at  02:44 PM

Well, you want to force women to bear children against their will.  It’s sort of tautological.  Next you’re going to tell me that defending segregation isn’t necessarily racist.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:45 PM

Thea, please drop it.  I changed the post.  I’m not really interested in giving sexists ammo to claim that feminism in America is irrelevant because it’s worse elsewhere concern troll concern troll.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:47 PM

Yes Thealogian, I’m just driving a wedge here. I think that’s very clear from my tone, yes! You on the other hand aren’t foaming at the mouth at the chance to call the Chinese sexist, not one little bit.

Comment #51: flashheart  on  01/19  at  02:48 PM

done! (Sorry)

Comment #52: flashheart  on  01/19  at  02:48 PM

The first rule of statistical studies is never, but never, assume that correlation indicates causation.  It makes you twice as dumb if you make the assumption while there are obvious confounding factors looking over your shoulder, drumming their fingers and making pointed comments about your conclusions.

The study’s authors are hacks, and they’re making actual psychologists look bad.

Comment #53: Robert M.  on  01/19  at  02:49 PM

I mean, if the post was about China and not evo psychology, then that might be a different issue.  I don’t think there’s any doubt that they have major human rights issues that go back to sexism in their culture, but that’s not really what this post is about.  It is actually possible for a culture to be sexist and still prize women’s sexual satisfaction, anyway.  Some really sexist/traditionalist strains of Judaism come to mind as an immediate example.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  02:50 PM

Only if “bank balance” is a metaphor for something else.  A wallet is not the only thing a man generally keeps in his pants, you know.

Comment #55: ShortWoman  on  01/19  at  02:52 PM

Only if “bank balance” is a metaphor for something else.  A wallet is not the only thing a man generally keeps in his pants, you know.
ShortWoman

not one funny but two funny grin

Comment #56: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/19  at  02:54 PM

IP MASKER: KILLSCRIPT

Comment #57: Papertiger  on  01/19  at  02:57 PM

Incidentally, I do like the Monroe song, though. It makes some good points about financial security and independence being necessary for a woman’s happiness, even if that security and independence has to come from a man due to the time period.

Plus, I like the way she uses the song within the confines of the movie to undercut her loving-boyfriend-who-hires-spies-to-watch-her-every-move. She’s basically saying, Since you’ve already decided I’m a gold-digger, then I’ll accept it, revel in it, and throw it back in your face - which she does, pointedly, when she tosses the “diamond” stage prop at him. The derision in her eyes is quite cutting.

Of course, they end up together, anyway, because it’s Hollywood, but the way in which the end up makes it clear that SHE is calling the shots and he is at the mercy of her and his father (who admits - in surprise - that Monroe is really quite smart) and the story becomes less Hawt Women Fulfilling Male Fantasy and more Hawt Women Using Men to Get What She Wants.

It’s rancid, but it’s less (in my opinion) rancid than a lot of the silent submissive roles in movies today.

But that’s just me.

Comment #58: Essie the Elephant  on  01/19  at  02:58 PM

Only if “bank balance” is a metaphor for something else.  A wallet is not the only thing a man generally keeps in his pants, you know.

There is a “Chinese men have small penises” joke in this article that everyone here has seriously overlooked.

Comment #59: Zifnab25  on  01/19  at  02:59 PM

Amanda, I’m sorry I took the bait.

Bottom line: whether a certain population/individual wants to justify its misogyny using some ancient, all knowing text or pseudo science, the aim and the results are the same—Women aren’t fully human beings because X, Y & Z say so; men can’t be expected to control themselves around these not fully human creatures because of A, B, C and thus the order is restored, useful stereotypes are recast, so say we all.

peace

Comment #60: Thealogian  on  01/19  at  02:59 PM

I like the song because it rhymes “stiff knees” with “Tiffany’s.” You’ve got to admire that kind of nerve.

Comment #61: MissPrism  on  01/19  at  03:00 PM

“As a man and a Catholic, I can achieve orgasm by seeing images in a piece of burnt toast or a dented car fender.  Admittedly, if I actually have an orgasm, I go straight to hell.”

...I thought you just had to go to Confession.  Wow, that Catholic thing is really rough…

Comment #62: MikeEss  on  01/19  at  03:02 PM

Yeah, “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” is a more clever script that it seems initially.  The original books are even funnier.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  03:03 PM

I’m not really interested in giving sexists ammo to claim that feminism in America is irrelevant because it’s worse elsewhere concern troll concern troll.

Shorter Amanda: “You don’t agree with me. You’re a troll.”
Papertiger on 01/19 at 12:57 PM

Amanda didn’t call me a troll—she just asked me to stop in that particular line of argument because it wasn’t helpful for the discussion nor did it directly relate to the main point of the article (which was dodgy pseudo science was being used to fulfill sexist stereotypes of relations between men and women). I’ve been a long time reader/commenter and one thing I’ve noticed about Amanda is that she can predict rhetorical moves of opponents (and wedges or distractions) several comments before they manifest. Like a good chess player, I guess. So, she saw where this discussion could go and it wasn’t where she wanted it (her blog, her rules). So, I respect that.

Comment #64: Thealogian  on  01/19  at  03:06 PM

hmm, so what’s the deal if we can have orgasms all by ourselves?

In science we call those waste orgasms. They’re just a meaningless by-product of the ability to have real, man-created orgasms.

Comment #65: tb  on  01/19  at  03:06 PM

Ha, tb.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  03:08 PM

“In science we call those waste orgasms. They’re just a meaningless by-product of the ability to have real, man-created orgasms.”

...which is a good start on a new EvoPsych meme, but to really kick it into high gear you have to make some sort of claim that non-man-created orgasms are actually mentally and physically debilitating.  The write a book or two and then => Profit!...

Comment #67: MikeEss  on  01/19  at  03:11 PM

OK, I’m going to go ahead that I didn’t read the entire article of all of the comments, but I wanted to highlight something:


“He said: “Increasing partner income had a highly positive effect on women’s self-reported frequency of orgasm. More desirable mates cause women to experience more orgasms.””


NO NO NO NO NO.

When will people finally learn that correlation DOES NOT equal causation.

There are a million ways of explaining this finding. Some of them are misogynistic, others are actually quite feminist. I don’t think we should throw out the finding entirely just because the popular reporting on it is massively irresponsible.

A few alternate explanations off the top of my head:

1. Women with wealthier husbands may also be better educated and/or more empowered, leading to greater sexual empowerment.

2. Alternately, wealthy couples in China may have a greater power differential between husband and wife, leading wives to feel pressured to report more frequent orgasms.

3. Wealthier couples may have fewer environmental stressors, leading to a higher quality couple and sex life.

4. Wealthier couples may have greater access to contraception, thus leading to less sex-related anxiety.

5. Wealthier couples in China may have greater exposure to liberal Western values, including sexual mores, which in turn leads to a higher self report of orgasm.

I could easily go on, but I think I made my point. As a psychologist, this kind of stuff makes my skin crawl.

Comment #68: swarmofseals  on  01/19  at  03:11 PM

...I thought you just had to go to Confession.  Wow, that Catholic thing is really rough…

I’d have to check, but I’m pretty sure jizzing at the sight of the Virgin Mary is a mortal sin.

Comment #69: Zifnab25  on  01/19  at  03:12 PM

Sex with my bf is better on the weekends when we simply have the time to go that second, or third round than when we have to quit so we don’t stay up all night, and are too tired to work in the morning. If we had the kind of wealth were we could while away our days getting busy, then yeah, I’m sure I could say I have more orgasms. This whole article is bunk. Can’t believe this study was published.

Comment #70: Laureli  on  01/19  at  03:12 PM

Thank you Robert M. - that’s a major criticism of this study that can be made even without pointing out the number of confounding factors, possible cultural issues and so on. So female orgasms are positively correlated with the income of male partners - so what? Monthly national soda sales are positively correlated with the monthly national murder rate, and no one that I know of has ever argued that drinking soda causes people to flip out and kill each other.

I also share the bemusement of others who think that comparing the reported number of female orgasms to the male partner’s income (instead of, say, the income of the person actually reporting the damn orgasms, or the combined income of the household) is a bizarre decision to make about data collection, given concern about confounding factors and, oh, the REALITY of how most straight households earn and manage incomes.

Comment #71: grolby  on  01/19  at  03:13 PM

Don’t take this away from me, Marcotte! Theories and studies like this are the reason I give myself for the fact that women don’t enter Thunderdome-style death matches to see who gets the right to blow me first. If none of that is true, that means the reason has something to do with me.

Comment #72: Michael  on  01/19  at  03:18 PM

It is quite unfortunate this study did not seem to control for education level(regardless of income), rural/urban origins, nor allowances for regional cultural differences.  The study also neglects to mention that some major factors for the rise in consumerist materialism in China among EVERYONE, especially in the newly created middle/upper classes which adds more complications to their study:

1. Only about two decades ago, China’s economy was starting from the extreme bottom after two+ decades of ill-conceived Maoist policies which privileged political ideology and hackery above everything else….such as coherent economic policies, professional skills/competence, or even ensuring the populace has access to education and the benefits of social, scientific, and technological research. 

2.  Once the Cultural Revolution/Maoist era ended, Deng Xiaoping implemented market oriented reforms in the hopes of creating a foundation for rebuilding China’s economy.  There was a frantic feeling among both the ruling elite and many Chinese that China needed to do all it can to catch up economically to gain the respect of the World (Actually First World)...especially after Maoist attempts have failed.  Some parallels can be drawn with Japan both during the Meiji era and in the Postwar period after 1945. 

3. While successful in rebuilding China’s economy, it has also caused rapid and dislocating social and economic changes which fueled rapid rise in the newly created middle-upper classes and their rampant consumerist behavior while everyone else, especially the rural poor who end up making up most of the “migrant worker” population ended up getting screwed in the process.  Doesn’t help that many of the older members of those middle/upper-classes were persecuted as “capitalist roaders” and “counter-revolutionary intellectuals” during the Cultural Revolution when those same worker/peasant classes were highly privileged so there isn’t much sympathy for their situation.  If anything, many of the Chinese middle/upper classes I’ve met are arguably greater at the “I have mine, screw everyone else” mentality than the most cold-hearted capitalist-minded Americans. 

4. Though sexism existed throughout the Maoist period, it was far more subdued in many ways than what existed during the 1950’s-1970’s in the US or parts of Western Europe.  Unfortunately, the brutality in the enforcement of many social reform policies combined with the discrediting of Marxist-Maoist policies after the mid-late 1970s meant that there was a great backlash against those reforms. 

It also doesn’t help that Jiang Qing, Mao’s wife is widely reviled by most Chinese for being a key figure in encouraging the brutal persecutions of intellectuals or anyone judged a “counter-revolutionary” or “capitalist roader”.  Though much of this reviling is justified judging by what historians know of her role so far in the Cultural Revolution, this reviling often seriously neglects to note that Mao placed her in that position and that she was most likely acting with his full and total authorization.  This is due to a mix of modern day political convenience among the CCP along with sexist backlash that has had a long tradition in Chinese historiography from Empress Wu Zetian to Dowager Empress Cixi

Comment #73: exholt  on  01/19  at  03:34 PM

atheist, I’m sure that the argument you just presented could be used equally well by evo-psych nutters to argue that women are bad and men must control them. There’s no way that Buss guy was going to reach any other conclusion - the body of his argument is really just irrelevant fluff, like all evo-psych experiments.

Flashheart, you’re absolutely right on that. I’m sure it has been used as an argument for control of women somewhere, actually. The reason I pointed it out (and Essie the Elephant pointed out the same argument at the same time, I see) was to show how shallow and one-sided Buss’s argument seems when you think about it. As you said, just fluff which decorates his bias and makes it look prettier.

Comment #74: atheist  on  01/19  at  04:06 PM

Even if, in this case, correlation equals causation (and that’s a big and completely unproven if), how does that lead immediately to “women are hard-wired ...”?  Because cultural factors play no role in human behavior whatsoever?  Haven’t we killed this evil zombie leap in logic yet?  Please?

Comment #75: carovee  on  01/19  at  04:41 PM

You know what else correlates with wealth, especially in a place like China? EDUCATION. Particularly Western education, as many upper class Chinese men and women are educated in the US or Europe. Places where one is much more likely to find reliable information about the location of the clitoris. I’d alos like to see the woman’s level of education in these studies, as I would guess that those with a college degree or more are likely to seek out partners who are, you know, PARTNERS. This is always what happens when people trained in hard sciences try to wade into the tangled mess of culture. Their linear thought process leaves out a huge amount of possible contributing factors.

When I first read the headline of the study, my thought was, “Huh. Well, I guess maybe wealthier guys are more ambitious and success-driven as a group. Maybe that translates to the bedroom.” But it’s pretty clear that they measured nothing that any of us trained in those “fake” social sciences would find important.

Comment #76: Liz  on  01/19  at  04:43 PM

One thing about this study that nobody has mentioned is that women married to a good meal ticket generally have help with the grunt work, meaning they’re not preoccupied with things like dirty laundry piling up and cobwebs multiplying on the ceiling (again? so soon?) while Himself is playing with his favorite toy.

Another thing it failed to mention is that the better the meal ticket, the more motivated a woman is to be an actress. 

Alas, they’re right about one thing, something that investment bankers losing their shirts are finding out the hard way: some young trophy wives do marry them for their money.

Comment #77: Warpster  on  01/19  at  04:44 PM

Progressives are similar to communists in the regard that they believe wealth should not equal more privileges.

Whether you’re vacationing or fucking, it seems that having some money doesn’t hurt.

Comment #78: DogBreath  on  01/19  at  04:57 PM

After having read the whole article, I notice that there is no mention of this research actually being published anywhere, like in a peer-reviewed journal. Which indicates to me that it likely didn’t make the cut, or someone decided he’d rather talk to the press about it than other scientists. Highly suspicious. He’ll probably write some horrible book bolstering ideas of privilege that will sell a million copies, but be derided in academia for years to come, like “The Bell Curve”.

Comment #79: Liz  on  01/19  at  05:05 PM

Evolutionary Psych obviously does not consider the Celtic culture on northern Europe which so stongly influences western culture. Not only did the women fight alongside their man, the Romans considered the women more frightening. Celtic women would also take on any task they thought themselves capable of. Certain tasks such as guiding a plough very few women could perform. Women just did not have the upper body strength to steer an ancient plough. There were women smiths though… and female Druids.

BTW if anyone follows the link on my comment, I didn’t post it OK, my sister put it on the blog. No lynch mob please, Sally was being ironic.

Comment #80: Ian Thorpe  on  01/19  at  05:11 PM

Progressives are similar to communists in the regard that they believe wealth should not equal more privileges.

We’re also Mexican Muslim Fascist Abortionist New World Orderists. It’s quite a life.

Comment #81: atheist  on  01/19  at  05:16 PM

When I read the first part of the article you quoted, I thought it meant how often a woman orgasms during one sex session! Like, if you are with a poor guy, you might only get one or none, but with a rich guy, you get 10 or 20! Apparently they are of the opinion that even rich guys only give their women 0-1 orgasms every time. (orgasms “most of the time”). But they never mention really how many orgasms these women were having, so I’m not sure how they can reach the conclusion they did. I mean, if I have sex one day and get no orgasms, but then the next day have sex and get 2, does it average out to “every time”?

My anecdote: my guy makes about the same amount of income I do (not much at all), and I not only orgasm every time, I orgasm MULTIPLE times every time.

Comment #82: Kat  on  01/19  at  05:25 PM

You know what else correlates with wealth, especially in a place like China? EDUCATION. Particularly Western education, as many upper class Chinese men and women are educated in the US or Europe.

True…..though at least speaking in the US context, that depends on what stage of higher education we’re talking about…..

1. If Chinese students who are not immigrants are coming as undergrads, that’s almost always because they come from wealthy families able to pay full international student tuition rates and fees and were unable to score high enough on the Chinese national college entrance exam to even get into a second/third tier university….much less a first tier school like Beijing or Tsinghua Universities.  As admission to even Ivy/Ivy-level schools are far less cutthroat than admission to even a second/third tier Chinese university(More than half of all national college entrance examinees failed to gain admission to ANY university in 2007), this route is considered by many Chinese grad students who did their undergrad in China as taking a gold-laden backdoor to undergrad prestige….and a reason many of them had some contempt for their undergrad compatriots.  Doesn’t help that in math & science, the level of undergrad instruction in the US…even at Ivy/Ivy-level institutions is considered far below the level of what they received back in China when they compared their own undergrad experiences with the curriculum of US undergrad math & science courses they were TAing. 

2. Chinese students coming as grad students, especially the majority at my grad institution who attended undergrad in China tend to come from a broader cross-section of China’s socio-economic spectrum because China’s universities were free up until the late 1990’s…and even afterwards…far less expensive than US undergrad tuition rates even before scholarships are accounted for.  Secondly, many come as fully-funded PhD students from US universities and/or from the Chinese government/scholarship foundations.  From what I gathered from talking with the Chinese student community on that and other campuses….the most prestigious respectable route is to complete undergrad in China…especially at a first-tier institution….and then apply to study in the US or Europe. 

In some ways, this mentality is similar to that held by most of the Japanese grad students where there was a strong prevailing preference to do undergrad in Japan…especially at topflight institutions like Tokyo or Waseda….and then come to the US/Europe for grad school.

Comment #83: exholt  on  01/19  at  05:30 PM

Yeah, I’m seeing a very simple explanation: Wealth means less stress and better overall health, thus more orgasms.  Nothing gendered about it.

The thing I don’t understand is, why didn’t they look at the same numbers for males?  (I dread/suspect they may be working on the assumption that men always orgasm, which is just poor science.)

Comment #84: realityfighter  on  01/19  at  06:04 PM

“The thing I don’t understand is, why didn’t they look at the same numbers for males?  (I dread/suspect they may be working on the assumption that men always orgasm, which is just poor science.) “

No, no, no.  It’s because evo psych’s sole purpose (according to our media) is to give barely coherent scientific-sounding justifications for bigotry.  They didn’t focus on men because it’s much more edgy and new to blame women. For everything.

Comment #85: Gypsy Lee  on  01/19  at  06:11 PM

Yeah, wow, that is just some poor reporting on some lousy science.  I guarantee you that one you control for hours spent doing housework/childrearing and/or other measures of stress, you’ll get precisely zero correlation—if not negative.

This did have the pleasant effect of reminding me of the Onion article, linked to in my name:

“CEO’s Marital Duties Outsourced to Mexican Groundskeeper”

Comment #86: Punditus Maximus  on  01/19  at  06:11 PM

The Chinese economy still being in the industrial period (cf. U.S. 1850-1950), poor women probably are actually hungry and tired, and having orgasms from sex is a pretty low priority compared with survival. I woudln’t be in the mood after working in a factory for 16 hours a day.

Comment #87: sara  on  01/19  at  06:12 PM

Are there that many rich people in China ? It seems to me in China there are differences so vast in income that HAVING a bank account might mean the difference. Wives / partners of people with a roof over their heads and money to buy imported milk for their babies have the energy and attention span to relax in bed, the others can barely survive.

Seriously, this study looks like an old wealthy man’s dream in writing and if it was true there would be no pool boys having a good time and old man being cheated on by their prize wives.

Comment #88: Renmiri  on  01/19  at  06:13 PM

Are there that many rich people in China?

You’d be surprised.

“(2006)Now, China is embracing them. More than 300,000 Chinese have a net worth over $1 million, excluding property, and mainland millionaires control some $530 billion in assets. Film producer Wang Zhongjun is one of them, shown here in the sculpture garden of his house just north of Beijing.”

Comment #89: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/19  at  06:29 PM

Other thing that’s missing from this study is frequency of sex. (But yeah, the main one is that especially in an unstable economy like china’s, there’s going to be a strong correlation between money and the low stress level conducive to good sex.) Also, in China, as in many developing countries, you may tend to have more couples in what are effectively long-distance relationships, which means that sex is concentrated (for better or worse) during the periods when they’re together and have a modicum of privacy.

Comment #90: paul  on  01/19  at  06:30 PM

Lesse…...

It takes a study to find that if you have a great income, you get more ‘tang.

Comment #91: DogBreath  on  01/19  at  06:37 PM

“(2006)Now, China is embracing them. More than 300,000 Chinese have a net worth over $1 million, excluding property, and mainland millionaires control some $530 billion in assets. Film producer Wang Zhongjun is one of them, shown here in the sculpture garden of his house just north of Beijing.”

Not to mention there are many more people who may not be millionaires but who would still be considered upper/upper-middle class because the Renminbi’s official exchange rate is still below what its actual purchasing power in China would indicate along with the fact average incomes of even highly educated professionals like engineers would be considered poverty-level wages by US standards if they were earning those amounts here. 

There are plenty of hundred thousandaires along with those millionaires you mentioned whose cash flow is enough to ensure they can pay $45-$50k+/year full tuition to send their daughters and sons to private Ivy/Ivy-level schools….especially if their kiddies failed to score high enough to get into a second/third-tier Chinese university on the Chinese national college entrance exam and/or set them up to be a consumer market pool corporations can only dream of.

Comment #92: exholt  on  01/19  at  07:14 PM

“The thing I don’t understand is, why didn’t they look at the same numbers for males?  (I dread/suspect they may be working on the assumption that men always orgasm, which is just poor science.) “

You’d probably find the same kind of relationships between wealth and erectile dysfunction for males (which like not orgasming can have pysiological and psychological determinants).

Again, as has been noted, health and wealth go hand in hand.  There is no reason to think that healthy sexuality should be the exception to this rule.

Amazing that without dealing with all the confounds, wankers can jump to such overwhelmingly unsupportable conclusions that just happen to reinforce their existing biases.

Quite a coincindence that </snark>

Comment #93: Randomizer  on  01/19  at  07:45 PM

Poor women in any country, but especially third world countries, often rely on men for their very survival, in which case, I would imagine that many poor women in China aren’t too satisfied with their boyfriends or husbands.  They can’t leave, they can’t say no to sex (at least not on a permanent basis).  Is it any surprise that poor Chinese women aren’t enjoying the sex they’re having?

This reminds me of the study that shows that better educated women have less sex.  Could it be that less educated women have to have a man around for support and, for various reasons*, those women can’t refuse sex to those men?

*One obvious reason is that those women don’t refuse sex out of fear of losing their boyfriend’s/husband’s financial support.  Another possible reason is that less educated women may have more antiquated ideas of a woman’s relationship “duties” and so don’t feel empowered to say no.

Comment #94: keshmeshi  on  01/19  at  07:57 PM

My own experience is this:  When I am feeling very competent, and as if I’m on an adventure of my own free choice, my libido starts to fly.  When I am exposed to the very degrading notions of ev. psych. that suggest I have no free will, and that I am attracted to morons, my libido plummets.  When I lose my interest in the representations of men, when I lose my self-esteem, when my irritation grows, I feel no sexual interest. 

These ev. psych. types are putting up a very libido-diminishing representation of masculinity out there.

It should serve to curb the population growth, with any luck.

Comment #95: jennifer cascadia  on  01/19  at  08:08 PM

Minor correction: the Radio Lab piece talked about how the gland was *smaller* in the poor because stress depressed the immune system, so when doctors saw normal glands in SIDS infants, they thought they were enlarged and irradiated healthy infants to shrink their glands.  Direct opposite of your reference, although the larger principle holds.

Comment #96: Kua  on  01/19  at  08:40 PM

Amanda seems to reject both the “findings” of the “study” - namely, that there is a correlation between a husband’s wealth and his wife’s sexual satisfaction - and the “study’s” attempt to explain that correlation via women-are-evolutionarily-programed-to-be-shallow-gold-digging-so-and-so’s.

But a lot of commenters have made good arguments as to why a slightly-different version of the correlation might be true. That household income might correlate to both partners’ sexual satisfaction due to more/better health, leisure time, etc. To me this makes a lot of intuitive sense.

But of course stated that way, the correlation doesn’t lend itself to the women-are-walking-manipulative-ovaries explanation. Which leads me to believe that the “researchers” in question *wanted* to get to a women-are-walking-manipulative-ovaries explanation.

Comment #97: Andrew  on  01/19  at  08:49 PM

Poor women in any country, but especially third world countries, often rely on men for their very survival, in which case, I would imagine that many poor women in China aren’t too satisfied with their boyfriends or husbands.

keshmeshi,

FYI, I doubt China can be considered a “Third World” nation, especially since the mid-1990s when their economy has flourished up until this year.  Even with this economic recession….their economy is still expended to grow barring a dramatic catastrophe. 

I’m also a bit concerned at the widespread automatic assumption that higher socio-economic status of men/women == better sex/relationships. 

From my own(and I’m betting others’) observations of relationships within my and other families along with those of classmates, friends, and acquaintances, this isn’t always true.  While higher-incomes can provide a better foundation for better sex/relationships, that’s also predicated on the assumption one or both individuals in the relationship aren’t incompatible or misanthropic assholes…..a pretty big assumption to make, especially among those with high socio-economic privilege. 

If this assumption was axiomatically true, then I wonder why is it that I’ve encountered a multitude of highly paid i-bankers, corporate execs, and corporate lawyers who have been divorced multiple times during my time in the halls of corporate America?

Moreover, I’ve came across too many accounts of unhappy/disastrous relationships/marriages among wealthy couples/families as a staple theme over the last several hundred years of Chinese first-person accounts, novels, and cinema/TV for such experiences to be a mere fluke.

Comment #98: exholt  on  01/19  at  08:57 PM

Wow, Andrew, reading comprehension?  You’re doing it wrong.

I accepted that a correlation might exist, though I’m skeptical of its strength because they were afraid to report it.  But I said assuming that it’s there, social reasons are a better explanation.  You can read the post and assure yourself that it’s in there and nope, I’m not so dumb.  Damn.  Maybe next time.

Comment #99: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  09:32 PM

exholt, no one is saying money automatically makes a good relationship.  But here’s the thing—-good relationships can sour on stress, and money is the big one.  Here’s a chart to show what people are arguing:

Bad relationship + money stress=bad relationship

Bad relationship + no money stress=bad relationship

Good relationship + money stress=bad relationship, over time

Good relationship + no money stress=good relationship.

Now, that’s oversimplifying it.  But assuming rich and poor alike start off with good relationships 50% of the time, the rich will be able to keep their relationships good much more than the poor because they’re not fighting about money as much.

Comment #100: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/19  at  09:36 PM

But assuming rich and poor alike start off with good relationships 50% of the time, the rich will be able to keep their relationships good much more than the poor because they’re not fighting about money as much.

Though being wealthy can provide a stronger foundation for a better long-term relationships, it does not necessarily mean that money stress/fighting over money goes away/decreases. 

Only difference in money stress/fighting over money is that it is motivated by other reasons and takes on different forms judging by the massive amount of legal documents I’ve come across when assisting attorneys on cases involving wealthy couples/family members bickering over money even when their net worth precludes having to worry survival or even ample financial security.  Saw similar behaviors among wealthy families of classmates and colleagues. 

In short, being wealthy can lay a foundation for a better long-term relationship…..or become another form of money stress/fighting over money…..though for different reasons and ways….

Comment #101: exholt  on  01/19  at  09:49 PM

“This reminds me of the study that shows that better educated women have less sex.  Could it be that less educated women have to have a man around for support and, for various reasons*, those women can’t refuse sex to those men?”

Or it could be that less-educated women use sex as a stress-relief mechanism and have more sex due to experiencing more stress, be it from limited employment options, limited financial means, etc.  Less-educated women could also be saying yes more frequently to sex that’s a bad risk—partner might be infected, birth control might be unreliable—due to inadequate or incomplete sex ed.  Or a melange of similar social factors, none of which evo-psych peddlers seem at all able to grasp, probably because our plains-roving ancestors derived some benefit from being deliberately obtuse.

Comment #102: preying mantis  on  01/19  at  09:51 PM

Amanda, I really think you misread my tone. Or perhaps I communicated it poorly. Either way, if I gave credit to commenters that properly belonged to you, I’m more than willing to stand corrected.

Comment #103: Andrew  on  01/19  at  09:52 PM

And I’m sorry, but where exactly is it that I’ve given you the impression that I’m somehow out to show that I think you’re stupid?

Rude in this case, but certainly not stupid.

Comment #104: Andrew  on  01/19  at  09:56 PM

I’d just like to mention, I’ve been looking at the title of the post, and “Diamond Orgasms” sound fucking awesome. I’d love some bright, clear, hard-edged orgasms that sparkle like constellations and never break. And I’d love to inspire them too!

Comment #105: atheist  on  01/19  at  10:06 PM

*One obvious reason is that those women don’t refuse sex out of fear of losing their boyfriend’s/husband’s financial support.  Another possible reason is that less educated women may have more antiquated ideas of a woman’s relationship “duties” and so don’t feel empowered to say no.

The less-educated women you are talking about must live in the few extremely isolated rural areas that were not really affected by Maoist political initiatives from 1949 until the mid-1970s.  Though those areas do exist, they are extremely rare considering the initiation and implementation of Maoist policies in China were quite totalitarian in their level of reach and effectiveness, even in most isolated rural areas. 

Though there’s much to criticize in Mao and policies initiated by him/his political allies during this period…..one of the few good things was their efforts to stamp out old gender and social norms and to encourage more women to become educated/trained for highly skilled jobs/leadership positions.  Though patriarchy still existed during this period, China during this period was actually far ahead in terms of gender equality than the US/parts of Western Europe during the same period. 

It was one reason why some Chinese women who lived through the Maoist period and later came to the US to study were quite shocked that many US parents encouraged their daughters to become cheerleaders….something they regarded as an example of how US women were valued more for their looks rather than their character/capabilities as they experienced growing up in Maoist China. 

Due to the discrediting of Mao’s policies after the Cultural Revolution combined with the inundation of Globalized consumerist-encouraging mass media, however, there has been some backtracking…..though not to the extent of how China was in the first half of the 20th century and before.

Comment #106: exholt  on  01/19  at  10:10 PM

Urban-rural differences are likely to be great. Social attitudes toward sex are so different - conservative, often rural, Chinese women may not want to admit that they have orgasms, whereas urban women with some small amount of disposable income are exposed to Western ideologies stating that women are expected to have orgasms.

Now, what REALLY happens with these women? Who knows - maybe the rural women are getting good sex, the urban women are frustrated, but to satisfy local propriety, both lie about their experiences.

OFF-TOPIC
Another reason that Chinese undergrads (and a few graduate students) in the US may be suspect to other Chinese graduate students is that the weaker students sent over are often political informers on the other students.

Comment #107: NancyP  on  01/19  at  10:22 PM

I have a book of photos from the time of Imperial China, and one of Cixi’s pastimes was to dress up and pose as the Goddess of Mercy,  Guan Yin, for the Court Photographer.

The human propensity to lie about personal, and especially sexual matters is apparently ALWAYS discounted by evolutionary psychologists whenever they want to “prove” one of their idiotic theories - because a self-reporting survey is the cheapest, easiest research method ever developed.

Comment #109: Nancy  on  01/20  at  12:34 AM

i’m a bit surprised; do not one think about how maybe the wives of rich women feel compelled to *lie* about how often they have orgasms, and maybe they claimed a higher rate, because they maybe feel it is part of their job to have an orgams, and so fake it or whatever?
i, sadly, know women who DO feel required to have, or at least fake, and orgasm *every time*.

Comment #110: denelian  on  01/20  at  01:02 AM

I don’t see any sign of the research mentioned in the news story on either of the coauthors’ sites. Nettle and Pollet have another study concerning “selection on wealth” for men, using data from the National Child Development Study in Great Britain. They find a positive correlation between income and number of children for men, a negative correlation for women. There’s no mention of orgasms in this paper, which is available at:

“Natural Selection on Male Wealth in Humans”
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/daniel.nettle/amnat.pdf

The fallacy in drawing inferences from the correlations to claims about genes or evolution is that only in particular social setups does having a wealthy partner make sense as a good or as the best strategy for female reproductive success—rather than, say, accumulating wealth for oneself. The authors themselves note that the strength of the correlation, though it is always positive for men, varies a great deal across cultures, and that it is highest in polygynous societies where the number of wives depends on holdings of land and cattle.

As often happens, the way a tendency plays out depends greatly on the context in which it is manifested. Nothing much follows about either men or women, or about just what their mating tendencies amount to, in abstraction from social arrangements.

Comment #111: DDC  on  01/20  at  01:26 AM

Wow. My vibrator is rich?! AWESOME

Comment #112: RacyT  on  01/20  at  01:35 AM

Urban-rural differences are likely to be great. Social attitudes toward sex are so different - conservative, often rural, Chinese women may not want to admit that they have orgasms, whereas urban women with some small amount of disposable income are exposed to Western ideologies stating that women are expected to have orgasms.
Now, what REALLY happens with these women? Who knows - maybe the rural women are getting good sex, the urban women are frustrated, but to satisfy local propriety, both lie about their experiences.

Not to mention a smidgen of Neo-Confucian along with residual influences from European Christianity and Maoist notions of discussing sex as a form of “bourgeois decadence” may have added to the reluctance to discuss sex honestly….especially those from rural areas. 

OFF-TOPIC
Another reason that Chinese undergrads (and a few graduate students) in the US may be suspect to other Chinese graduate students is that the weaker students sent over are often political informers on the other students.

Good point….especially considering the younger generations of Chinese grad/undergrad students (late teens to mid-20s) tend to be far more uncritically patriotic than their older counterparts. 

I have a book of photos from the time of Imperial China, and one of Cixi’s pastimes was to dress up and pose as the Goddess of Mercy, Guan Yin, for the Court Photographer.

Editor, title and publisher? wink

Comment #113: exholt  on  01/20  at  01:42 AM

Wow. My vibrator is rich?! AWESOME

LOL!

Comment #114: Nancy  on  01/20  at  02:47 AM

Authors:

Clark Worswick (Author), Jonathan D. Spence (Author)

Introduction by Harrison Salisbury

Title:

IMPERIAL CHINA:  Photographs 1850-1912

Publisher:  Scolar Press (October 25, 1979)

This book also has as the back cover photo 3 women on a Shanghai street in a cangue.

Our ancestors had a wonderful sense of humor, exholt smile

I’m also a bit concerned at the widespread automatic assumption that higher socio-economic status of men/women == better sex/relationships.

I’m not making that assumption.  I’m assuming that poor women can’t leave unless they want greater misery for themselves and their children.  It’s also pretty difficult for them to demand more respect, better sex, and better treatment if their very survival hinges on the favor of the men in their lives.  And is there really any question that men and women in, say, the United States and Europe have better sex and relationships than men and women in, say, Africa?

The less-educated women you are talking about must live in the few extremely isolated rural areas that were not really affected by Maoist political initiatives from 1949 until the mid-1970s.

No.  I’m talking about women in the U.S.  Studies have shown that the more education an American woman has, the less sex she has.

Or it could be that less-educated women use sex as a stress-relief mechanism and have more sex due to experiencing more stress, be it from limited employment options, limited financial means, etc.

I guess that’s possible, but it kind of flies in the face of what many people here are arguing as to why wealthier Chinese women report more orgasms—that the less stress they have leads to better sex.

Comment #116: keshmeshi  on  01/20  at  05:07 AM

Bottom line is these scientists ran an experiment and came up with these results.

Now, what passes for ‘feminism’ today can’t let this stand. Not because their methodology is flawed, but for political reasons.

Damn the science. FULL SPEED AHEAD!

Comment #117: DogBreath  on  01/20  at  10:13 AM

“Bottom line is these scientists ran an experiment and came up with these results. “

no, diddums.  Someone mashed together something that sounded vaguely scientific and because it conforms to your bigot worldview, you swallow it hook, line and sinker without even a moment’s thought.  We understand.  That’s just how bigots operate.

Comment #118: Gypsy Lee  on  01/20  at  10:43 AM

And is there really any question that men and women in, say, the United States and Europe have better sex and relationships than men and women in, say, Africa?

A problematic question to ask, especially when the US & European MSM tends to continue the centuries old habit of portraying Africa and other non-Western societies monolithically as “backward” “primitive” others to “prove” Western societies in US and Europe are more “civilized” and “enlightened”.  Please also keep in mind that Africa is a large continent with a great diversity of cultures and societies…..let’s not fall into the same trap of geographical and cultural cluelessness exhibited by the most ignorant of McCain-Palin supporters this past election.  wink

Especially when this very blog has covered many ways in which many regions of the US and Europe can be quite retrograde in this regard…..including some regions that I’ve visited/lived.

Comment #119: exholt  on  01/20  at  11:10 AM

A possible factor: wealthy women in China would have more privacy that poor women in China. A person at the bottom of the economic scale wouldn’t have his/her own bedroom.

Comment #120: LynstHolin  on  01/20  at  01:33 PM

You’ve made some potentially valid criticisms of this study, but to say that “evo psych evolved to meet the need of the media to have a constant influx of stories justifying sexism through “science”” is stunningly ignorant.  And whatever you think of evolutionary psychology, labelling it “evo psych” is a childish way of discrediting a discipline to which many scientists of both sexes have devoted a lot of work. 

It is true that the media tend to find it easy to latch onto studies of evolutionary psychology in order to generate sensationalist headlines, but that generally has a lot more to do with the nature of the reporting media than with the scientists.  Try reading Steven Pinker—really actually reading his books, critically rather than defensively—and then get back to me.

Comment #121: nas  on  01/20  at  02:09 PM

<i>You

Comment #122: DogBreath  on  01/20  at  03:21 PM

I was just thinking the other day that evolutionary psychologist folks who try to use biology to justify misogyny aren’t really that different from eugenicists.  I mentioned this thought to my spouse, who said, “And we need to weed them out so the next generation won’t have to deal with them!”

Comment #123: Sara Anderson  on  01/20  at  04:53 PM

And whatever you think of evolutionary psychology, labelling it “evo psych” is a childish way of discrediting a discipline to which many scientists of both sexes have devoted a lot of work.

It’s like how when I say I’m majoring in “bio” instead of biology, I’m secretly disrespecting the field! 9.9 (Also, I don’t think you really need to do *this* close a reading to figure out Amanda’s feelings on the issue. She doesn’t exactly tiptoe around about it… :p)

As for the title, my first thought was “damn, I guess diamonds really *are* a girl’s best friend!” along with a brief sigh of admiration for all the varied materials people use to make sex toys nowadays. :D

Comment #124: Bagelsan  on  01/20  at  06:46 PM

<i>I was just thinking the other day that evolutionary psychologist folks who try to use biology to justify misogyny aren

Comment #125: DogBreath  on  01/20  at  07:05 PM

“I guess that’s possible, but it kind of flies in the face of what many people here are arguing as to why wealthier Chinese women report more orgasms—that the less stress they have leads to better sex.”

Only if you assume that sex is pointless if you don’t always or almost always reach orgasm.  Less stress, generally speaking, leads to better sex, but it doesn’t automatically follow that the sex you have when you’re stressed is a negative or pointless experience.  It’s kind of like how if you’re pining for a steak, but all you can get is a cheapie burger; you’re not going to be nearly as happy as if you’d had the steak, but the burger is going to make you happier than a bowl of beef-flavored ramen.

If I had money on it, I’d guess that it’s a combination of at least a half-dozen factors, from generalized economic coercion to fewer available fulfilling leisure-activities.

Comment #126: preying mantis  on  01/20  at  08:47 PM

  <blockquote> Or it could be that less-educated women use sex as a stress-relief mechanism and have more sex due to experiencing more stress, be it from limited employment options, limited financial means, etc.

I guess that’s possible, but it kind of flies in the face of what many people here are arguing as to why wealthier Chinese women report more orgasms—that the less stress they have leads to better sex. </blockquote>

Also depends a lot on what you mean by “stress-relief mechanism” and for whom.

But ultimately I don’t see that much of a contradiction. At one point in my life, I was in a commuting relationship; parts of it were very stressful, and also accompanied by lots of sex during the 48 hours every few weeks that we were together. Not particularly satisfying sex, but lots of it, because two or three or four weeks without contact is a long time.

Less-stressed periods of that relationship had less sex (narrowly defined) but the sex was more fun, and so was the not-sex.

Comment #127: paul  on  01/21  at  11:01 PM
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