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Next entry: The Insta-Question Previous entry: Some headlines speak for themselves

Dog whistle evo psych

There’s a couple of links I want to toss up tonight, because I think these are troubling indicators that armchair evo psych “theories” about how women are biologically inferior to men have become so ingrained in our consciousness, that half-baked pseudo-science evolutionary just-so stories don’t have to be made up at all.  Gender essentialist stories are now written, and the audience is free to assume that the measured trends are DNA-based and have no relationship to social conditioning at all.  The first is this article about a kind of “no duh” bit of research that sounds like it has major methodology problems, even as it demonstrates something any random asshole on the street could have told you.

When men are shown images of women in bikinis, the part of the brain they use when thinking about DIY tools and other objects lights up.

At the same time, the region they use to try to tune into another person’s thoughts and feelings tunes down, brain scans showed.

Like Vanessa said, there may be good intentions behind the research, to show that the routine sexual objectification of women does in fact translate to the routine disrespect that ordinary women experience throughout their day.  And like Samhita said, no duh.  While it’s certainly true that some people have a subversive relationship to some kind of pin-up art (think of punk rock re-imagining of the Betty Page imagery), the day-to-day, irony-free function of most girlie pics is to make men feel like women exist for men.  It’s not even about arousal, unless every guy in the country is walking around with a permanent hard-on, because you can’t turn around without seeing cheesecake in our culture. 

Samhita’s post also drew out another aspect, call it dog whistle evo psych nonsense.  Here’s the quote from the original piece:

Asked if women were likely to view half-dressed men in the same way, she said that women tended to rate age and bank balance over looks.

They didn’t say if there was any research, or if she just spouted that off.  But what’s fascinating is that nowhere was it ever stated that these behaviors are evolved traits embedded in DNA.  Because you don’t have to say that anymore—-audiences are trained to infer that.  And infer they do.  It’s only 5 comments in before the armchair evo psych crap starts:

This, to me, only goes to prove the biological differences between men and women. Men look for “good looking” women to further their line as an evolutionary process, more men are likely to want to impregnate a “good looking” woman. Women on the other hand look for men that can provide the necessary nest building materials. These days those materials are experience and money.

I believe Charles Darwin did work in this line.

But of course, the research does nothing of the sort.  But people have been trained to think any social phenomenon measured must be an indicator of unchangeable, genetic traits, and so you don’t even have to dig up David Buss to bullshit for you anymore.  Just in the nick of time, too, because the human genome project is swiftly moving us to a point where we’re going to have to admit there is no “can’t feel like a woman is human” gene in men and “gold digger” gene in women.  So now the topic of “how” can be ignored completely, and people can believe that socially conditioned traits are genetic, and no one will correct them. 

Invariably, when I write about this issue, I get accused of thinking that humans didn’t evolve at all.  Which is, of course, complete nonsense that is wielded by people who are too emotionally invested in proving these stereotypes to see the big gaping holes that occur when you make claims above evolved traits with no real proof to back it up, in a society where there are often millions of pieces of evidence for the social conditioning theory.  The existence of the engagement ring by itself would be enough to argue that women are strongly conditioned to see their social status as dependent, in some cases entirely dependent, on the wealth of their husbands, and this in turn will have an effect on their priorities.  Duh. 

With this sort of thing in mind, I wrote this piece at RH Reality Check about the way that social causes are almost never addressed in mainstream media pieces that reference the gap between the average sex drives of men and women.  Which isn’t to say all men are hornier than all women—-some women are hornier than the average man, some men have very low sex drives, etc.  But it does seem that a lot more women than men just check out of sex, and, as we’ve talked about before on the blog, the stats show that many don’t really care.  (Which says to me that they aren’t getting any other benefits from sex like emotional connection, either, so perhaps a lot of women just have massive relationship issues causing them to want to avoid sex completely.)  But what really bothers me is that people have fallen so far into the habit of thinking all differences or behaviors must be biological and genetic in origin, that you almost never see anyone confront some of the otherwise obvious issues, like women often lose their desires because, as I put it in the article, “women feel overworked, underpaid, underappreciated, understimulated, and shamed about their bodies.”  Sex drives are not etched in stone, and the term “you don’t use it, you lose it” applies.  Read the article to see all the ways I see women not using and therefore losing their desire.

Obviously, the answer to why people lean on evo psych theories and ignore the much more likely social conditioning is because looking at the latter leads directly to challenging male privilege.  To point out that women’s lowered libidos are the direct result of being tapped out and understimulated suggests solutions that will unnerve a lot of men and challenge male power—-more balance in sexual imagery, less bullying women about their bodies, more social permission for female libidos that makes some men fear infidelity, more men picking up housework and treating women with more respect, and even direct changes to what you do in bed so that it’s not all penis-centered.  Sounds like too much of a sacrifice for many, and it’s just easier to push all the blame on women for being fundamentally broken.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:41 PM • (78) Comments

Invariably, when I write about this issue, I get accused of thinking that humans didn’t evolve at all.  Which is, of course, complete nonsense that is wielded by people who are too emotionally invested in proving these stereotypes to see the big gaping holes that occur when you make claims above evolved traits with no real proof to back it up, in a society where there are often millions of pieces of evidence for the social conditioning theory.

This, I think, speaks to the main contribution that evo-psych choads have made to muddying the advance of scientific literacy.  I honestly believe most of them would be happy to be done with discussions of evolution and go back to a full embrace of religious dogma, since it’s so much easier to just say “Gawd willed it to be this way” than to have to tangle with smart feminists equipped with rational, science- and sociology-based arguments.

Comment #1: DonnaDiva  on  02/17  at  09:55 PM

Also worth mentioning, I think, is many people’s inability to distinguish between a phenomenon and an explanation for a phenomenon. That commenter is looking at a phenomenon (that [supposedly] men are attracted to looks, while women are attracted to money) and making argument to explain it (it’s an evolved, genetic difference). He sees an article that, at most, documents the existence of the phenomenon, and claims that it “proves” his argument that the phenomenon is biologically based.

This is like theorizing that trees exist because aliens put them there to spy on us and send them radio signals, and then pointing to an article that mentions the existence of trees and saying, “See!”

Comment #2: em.  on  02/17  at  10:31 PM

This comment is irrelevant, but that photo is really cool!

Comment #3: LauraB  on  02/17  at  10:31 PM

Something about evolutionary “thinkers” are their attitude towards living objects reminds me of the slimy creatures that inhabit and operate the inside of the daleks on Doctor Who.  There is really something repulsive about a mode of “thinking” that will not allow the “thinker” to come into an actual human relationship with another being.  Rather, the type of “thinking” involved in ev. psych. is designed to keep reality—especially its most frightening aspect of all—actual human relationships at a distance.  The “hard” (pseudo) scientific shell of the dalek as machine is meant to keep the slimy creature inside within a protected zone.

Comment #4: scratchy888  on  02/17  at  10:41 PM

It’s only since women got education and the vote (i.e. since they started getting the power to say no to unwanted sex) that scientists and popular culture have gotten the notion that women have less powerful libidos than men. Before then (and sometimes since) it was always the woman who led a man astray, the woman who wore a man out, the presence of women in the cloistered precincts of the academy that brought an end to pure intellectual inquiry, blah blah blah.Heck, women were even supposed to be hornier than pro football players (or at least the players were supposed to abstain during the season lest their vital essences be sapped).

Comment #5: paul  on  02/17  at  10:48 PM

I really liked that article you wrote on RH Reality Check, Amanda! It seems that statistics and “studies” are now being used to make conclusions seem “scientific” even when they’re stuck in the same old evo psych bullshit. I think people are resistant to anything that seems to suggest a societal reason for any human or cultural differences. Now, it’s that women and men have biologically different sex drives and emotion vs. reason capacities. My English professor brings gender studies into a lot of our discussions, and most of the people in my class deny that society has any bearing on how men vs. women behave and see the world (completely ignoring all the findings of social scientists since sociology began).

Of course, evo psych bull was used back in the day to argue that black people were an inferior race, so….

I think in some ways people don’t want to believe that social influences have any bearing on them because everyone wants to believe he or she is an independent, autonomous individual with a unique self identity, and they get uncomfortable to think that they don’t have any choice on how they’ve developed. Biology/genetics is okay, because it can’t change. But like you said, social reasons would mean that people actually might have to rethink cultural values and change something… and who wants that?

(Similar to the individualism philosophy in America and why poor people are blamed for their misfortune rather than taking a critical look at the economic system).

Comment #6: ArtOfMe  on  02/17  at  10:49 PM

em, it’s not that men are attracted to looks, but the more specific finding that your average man, when confronted with a sexualized image of a woman, finds his ability to empathize with women as human beings reduced.  In theory.  All it really found was that men who look at pictures of women in bikinis fire off neurons associated with tool use and stop firing off as many neurons associated with empathy.  But reading FMRIs is barely past the palm-reading stage, from what I understand.  They can make good guesses, but they can’t even get close to a definitive conclusion one way or another.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  10:51 PM

I honestly believe most of them would be happy to be done with discussions of evolution and go back to a full embrace of religious dogma, since it’s so much easier to just say “Gawd willed it to be this way” than to have to tangle with smart feminists equipped with rational, science- and sociology-based arguments.

I’m not so sure.  Most evo psych proponents I’ve talked to have been very pro-science.  They may not understand the rigor required of the scientific method, or the gaping flaws in the studies they cite, but they love, love, love the truthiness that a sciencey-sounding explanation provides.

Comment #8: jackalopemonger  on  02/17  at  10:51 PM

But reading FMRIs is barely past the palm-reading stage, from what I understand.  They can make good guesses, but they can’t even get close to a definitive conclusion one way or another.

There is this crazy idea that maybe—just maybe—there is more going on than just what area of the brain lights up when you perceive something.  For more on this, see the works of Gerald Edelman.

Comment #9: LauraB  on  02/17  at  11:00 PM

I’m not so sure.  Most evo psych proponents I’ve talked to have been very pro-science.  They may not understand the rigor required of the scientific method, or the gaping flaws in the studies they cite, but they love, love, love the truthiness that a sciencey-sounding explanation provides.

Yet they sound so much like Creationists when defending it.  They love the science-y sounding truthiness that seems to validate their thesis, but they don’t like actual science when it is used to test it.

Comment #10: DonnaDiva  on  02/17  at  11:10 PM

“It’s only since women got education and the vote (i.e. since they started getting the power to say no to unwanted sex) that scientists and popular culture have gotten the notion that women have less powerful libidos than men.”

...no, no, no!  It’s because men hadn’t invented EvoPsych yet.  They needed a really powerful-seeming tool with which to further reinforce what they already thought was happening…or some such crap…

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  02/17  at  11:27 PM

Any non-foolish evolutionary psychologist will tell you that it’s not “bank balances” that women find attractive, it’s social status.

Unfortunately, non-foolish evolutionary psychologists tend not to be as vocal.

Note that it is not true that evolutionary psychology doesn’t stand up to experiment.

Comment #12: Doug S.  on  02/17  at  11:39 PM

Any non-foolish evolutionary psychologist will tell you that it’s not “bank balances” that women find attractive, it’s social status.

There’s also a wealth of social evidence that demonstrates that women are traditionally economically disadvantaged, which would lead to a logical conclusion that they would be “attracted” to men with money, with or without any genetic programming to be so. 

Your link, while admittedly an interesting observation on parental grief, doesn’t prove anything with regard to human sexual attraction.  If anything, it seems to contradict the conventional wisdom that Everything People Do Is To Perpetuate Their DNA, Always.

Comment #13: DonnaDiva  on  02/17  at  11:52 PM

Evo-psych is classic “scientism”, which is on the flip side of the record that is religious fundamentalism

real advocates of science understand the limits of scientific explanation, and have some minimal appreciation of the humanities, art, and literature as ways of understanding the world

scientism thrives in a culture dismissive of the idea that art (elite or popular) has meanings that can be explored in depth

it’s my students getting upset at my pointing out the gender or religious or political implications of an image or piece of literature - stop overanalyzing, they whine

evo-psych’s appeal is that you can pretend you’re educated and rational while being in abject ignorance of 10,000 years of human civilization, let alone the social sciences and critical theories that have developed in the West in the last 15 decades or so

(where are the advocates for free will? why is it only a few feminists who smell a rat when anyone reduces the human being in all her complexity to a mechanics of self-replicating protein strands?)

Comment #14: wapsie  on  02/17  at  11:58 PM

Doug S., if they could compare women’s reactions in an egalitarian society, where social status is conferred by yourself and not your man, I bet that “natural” attraction to higher status men would evaporate.  But we can’t know—-there’s no non-patriarchies to look at.  But what’s interesting is that in some parts of our society, women’s attractiveness rises with their social status.  Guess which ones!  Yep, more liberal ones.  I know that it got to be easier to get a date as I made a little more money and had more status, but this sort of thing is less true of women I know in more conservative communities.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/18  at  12:10 AM

And assuming that humans are inexorably driven toward reproduction WHY must that = Boot on Women’s Necks?  It would seem to me that when females are healthy, free, and non-brutalized, they are better able to care for their offspring.  Evo-psych appears to defend the worst sorts of situations, in terms of the survival and thriving of progeny: rape, polygyny, multiple children with limited resources.  A lot of it seems so counterintuitive.

Comment #16: DonnaDiva  on  02/18  at  12:22 AM

But what’s interesting is that in some parts of our society, women’s attractiveness rises with their social status.  Guess which ones!  Yep, more liberal ones.  I know that it got to be easier to get a date as I made a little more money and had more status, but this sort of thing is less true of women I know in more conservative communities.

Well, even in more conservative ones.  Elizabeth I of England had no dearth of men all lined up.  In such cases, of course, it’s the assumption of power said men are after, thinking that once they get the ceremony over with the little lady will leave the important matters to the men (probably the reason Liz never married, although Virgin Queen my ass).

I know myself, I’ve always tended toward attraction to intelligence and independence (no surprise that I married a woman with a post-secondary education in a primarily academic field and her own career).  The idea of having a woman dependent on me is annoying, and, I think anyone who finds the dumb barefoot and pregnant bimbo in the kitchen as something they want in real life is utterly insane.

Comment #17: KeithM  on  02/18  at  12:37 AM

Wait a minute, here. A photo already objectifies its subject. So they’re claiming that a photo objectifying scantily-clad women is interpreted by the brain as such. Well, duh.

Comment #18: weirdnoise  on  02/18  at  12:46 AM

As someone whose career is based on the reality of biological evolution, this “evo psych” arrant bullshit really pisses me the fuck off! There is absolutely no fucking way that we could possibly distinguish the relative contributions of genetics and environment—including social environment—to complex social/psychological behaviors like human relationships even if that distinction were itself coherent. The entire fucking fake-ass “discipline” is scientifically bankrupt.

Comment #19: PhysioProf  on  02/18  at  01:03 AM

Wait a minute, here. A photo already objectifies its subject. So they’re claiming that a photo objectifying scantily-clad women is interpreted by the brain as such. Well, duh.

See, the thing is, weirdnoise, if the manly men aren’t provided with an endless supply of photos objectifying women, they’ll forget how to use tools.  Even though objectifying women and tool use are hardwired into their DNA.  Never you mind about that.  Women aren’t human, even though they play the pivotal role in civilizing men.  Even though men are biologically incapable of being civilized and also incapable of perceiving women as human and forming reciprocal relationships with them.  This still doesn’t mean that women are off the hook from being desperately concerned with forming relationships with men who are a) incapable of seeing them as human, b) incapable of being civilized, and c) incapable of forming reciprocal relationships wherein the ‘civilization’ could occur. 

Confused?  Well, that just means you don’t accept evolution and science!

Comment #20: DonnaDiva  on  02/18  at  01:17 AM

Doug S., if they could compare women’s reactions in an egalitarian society, where social status is conferred by yourself and not your man, I bet that “natural” attraction to higher status men would evaporate.  But we can’t know—-there’s no non-patriarchies to look at.  But what’s interesting is that in some parts of our society, women’s attractiveness rises with their social status.  Guess which ones!  Yep, more liberal ones.  I know that it got to be easier to get a date as I made a little more money and had more status, but this sort of thing is less true of women I know in more conservative communities.

And when has “social status” not been a factor in female attractiveness, in recent history?  How “good looking” a woman is (at least in developed nations) has largely depended on her access to resources (dental and health care, nutrition, exercise, etc.).  “Social status” has probably been as big of a deal to men as women for far longer than developments that produced the more egalitarian state we have today would allow.

Comment #21: DonnaDiva  on  02/18  at  01:59 AM

Were the men handling the photographs? Tool use, and handling objects like photos, magazines, or slide show forward buttons, seem like they ought to be both firing MANIPULATOR neurons.
Further studies suggests men should be shown landscapes or other neutral photos AND talk to women in bikinis, to see if the subject of the photos or the format was the reason for the results.

Comment #22: Samantha Vimes  on  02/18  at  02:29 AM

Amanda, I didn’t at all mean to suggest that men are (primarily or particularly) attracted to looks, or even that that’s what the study is about––I was just referring to the quoted commenter’s misinterpretation of it.

Comment #23: em.  on  02/18  at  02:30 AM

Wait a minute, here. A photo already objectifies its subject. So they’re claiming that a photo objectifying scantily-clad women is interpreted by the brain as such. Well, duh.

Actually, this is funnier:  “the region they use to try to tune into another person’s thoughts and feelings tunes down, brain scans showed”.

Yeah, well, you know, not believing in psychic powers and such, I’m pretty sure I don’t try to empathize with a photograph either.  It can’t possibly be because when faced with an inanimate object, the brain might not waste the glucose on worrying about its feelings.

Comment #24: KeithM  on  02/18  at  02:31 AM

When men are shown images of women in bikinis, the part of the brain they use when thinking about DIY tools and other objects lights up.

While I can’t deny that I find pictures of scantily clad women arousing, I think the part of my brain that thinks about “DIY tools” is completely inactive.

Comment #25: Lamenter  on  02/18  at  02:37 AM

I just looked up a more detailed description of the research, and what the newspaper report mentioned above failed to note are some very important qualifications concerning the results, which changes my criticism of it that I just made.

What the paper fails to mention is this:

Fisk also tested the men for levels of sexism and found a surprising effect those who scored high on this test, “...the hostile sexists were likely to deactivate the part of the brain that thinks about other people’s intentions. The lack of activation of this social cognition area is really odd, because it hardly ever happens. It’s a very reliable effect, that the medial prefrontal cortex comes online when people think about other people, see pictures of them, imagine other people.”

In other words, men who are sexist and would be more likely not to consider the feelings of women and view them as objects…are the ones most likely to not have their empathy portion of their brain working and to view women as objects.

This really takes it into the “Well, duh” category.

Comment #26: KeithM  on  02/18  at  02:43 AM

I don’t know about methodological problems, but if the first blockquote you provide is any indication, the authors of this, um “study” (if that’s the word to use for it), are really shitty writers and even worse social scientists. I’m a man, and I guarantee you that if you show me pictures of women in bikinis, I won’t be thinking about tools or objects.  Neither will I be thinking about women. Or bikinis.

Moreover, if the simple equation that they seem to be trying to set up (that heterosexual men equate “women” and “object”), then it should also follow from that fact (if it is, in fact, a fact) that if heterosexual men are shown pictures of tools and other objects, they should think of women. Which I tend to doubt is what happens.

Comment #27: Michael  on  02/18  at  02:46 AM

I really do wonder how much of it is association with context. Mind you, that doesn’t explain the power tools, but it does explain the lack of empathy since images of women in bikinis comes virtually exclusively from media which is designed to objectify the women. Could the men be associating the images with the context they are ordinarily seen rather than independently reacting to the image? Or are the two intrinsically linked? Is it possible in theory to pair bikini images with a context which challenges men to empathize? Would a greater prevalence of such imagery counteract the prevalent contexts or is it a lost cause? Or is it just not worth recontextualizing at all?

This is admittedly dovetailing with something I was already wondering about although in an outside the mainstream context, so I don’t want to thread jack, but I wonder if these kinds of social conditioning scenarios could be, if not reprogrammed, perhaps repurposed. Or is that just a needle you can’t thread? Is it really the image alone that objectifies and no alternative context can genuinely exist?

Comment #28: BStu  on  02/18  at  02:47 AM

I think KeithM hits the main point that the researchers found and this article leaves out: that this phenomenon does not occur in men generally and is actually rare in anyone but does consistently occur in men already identified by other means as sexist.  Hostile sexists, as they put it.

Before I read that, I had a couple of other thoughts, none too serious: I wondered if it was related to the fact that every tool manufacturer uses women in bikinis or otherwise scantily clad in virtually all of their promotional material.  Have you ever been in an auto shop that didn’t have the latest Snap-On calender or sexy tire posters?  That by itself could at least partially explain an association of “picture of woman in bikini” with “DIY tools.” 

Interesting choice of words that.  “DIY tools” evokes masturbation, right?  As do pictures of near naked women?

But seriously, KeithM’s point shows that once again, it’s not the researchers, it’s the dumbass reporting.  Hostile sexists think of sexy women as tools, in contrast to how everyone else does.  Imagine that.

Comment #29: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  02/18  at  04:30 AM

I’ve just scanned the comments, and it doesn’t seem that anyone has mentioned that calendars featuring power tools and naked models are very common, or at least used to be. Makita comes to mind, but I seem to recall more industrial brands as well. I would have expected the associations to run the other way - show me a cordless drill and I’ll imagine a clothesless woman - but whatever.

Comment #30: bad Jim  on  02/18  at  07:06 AM

Okay, I missed RobW, obviously. I used to work in a manufacturing environment in which such calendars used to be ubiquitous and treasured (and there are some I remember fondly). Models in bikinis continue to be used to sell all sorts of things to men. So what? Flowers seem to be used to sell nearly anything to women.

I’ll say three bad things about evolutionary psychology:

0: Whatever PhysioProf said.

1: Primates are less specialized than other mammals. We have fewer different cell types, hence fewer chromosomes, fewer genes. We’re more general purpose, and chiefly rely upon post-partum programming.

2. Ev-psych arguments of an economic sort, such as the different costs born by the father and the mother and their implications for different strategies for males and females are as easily explained by culture as genetic inheritance.

3. With respect to the endlessly entertaining spectacle of man as polygamous and woman monogamous, it may be worthwhile to note that it isn’t entirely clear what we actually do. Men report much higher levels of sexual activity than women. Unless we men are mostly screwing each other, and we’re certain we aren’t, then both parties are lying.

In short, one of the key ev-psych issues is either void or involves pets or domestic animals.

Baaah. Humbug.

Comment #31: bad Jim  on  02/18  at  07:56 AM

Who took that picture?  It gets me all, what’s the word, objectifying?

Comment #32: knowdoubt  on  02/18  at  08:43 AM

KeithM - thanks!

That was the first question I had. If this HAD turned up in the general population, did they follow up and do a separate analysis to separate the subjects by some other measure of empathy outside the test and see how the results matched up. In other words, were some men more subject to this than others. 

Now that it turns up that it was already done and this effect turned up in sexist men - well, as you said, duh.

Comment #33: Lymis  on  02/18  at  09:48 AM

This ‘study’ didn’t even bother to test women looking at attractive men in (the bottom half of) bikinis.  Also, how did they decide which pictures to use?  I wonder if the men would have reacted the same way to Roseanne in a bikini.

Anyway, the trend of women caring about men’s social status more than physical appearance is highly dependent on the woman’s social status and independence.  For example, I always knew that I would go to a good college and get a high-paying job, and I have never cared about money or social status when it comes to men.  And I have never been attracted to older men.

If there is a difference between men’s and women’s libido, I haven’t experienced it.  It’s probably at least partly due to the fact that women put so much more effort into being sexy than men do.  A smelly, hairy person would turn anyone off.

Comment #34: bananacat  on  02/18  at  10:20 AM

“It’s only since women got education and the vote (i.e. since they started getting the power to say no to unwanted sex) that scientists and popular culture have gotten the notion that women have less powerful libidos than men.”—paul

Something strange about that… almost sounds like what they’re actually saying is this: “She said no! How dare she! Well, it can’t be *my* fault… there must be something wrong with her. She just doesn’t want sex. Yes, that must be it.”

Comment #35: KMac  on  02/18  at  10:28 AM

1: Primates are less specialized than other mammals. We have fewer different cell types, hence fewer chromosomes, fewer genes. We’re more general purpose, and chiefly rely upon post-partum programming.
...
bad Jim on 02/18 at 02:56 AM

WTF!?!

Your opening and closing sentences are reasonable, sort of, in a broad, vague way.

The stuff in the middle is insane. Fewer cell types, fewer chromosomes, genes? Where do you get that?

Our “unspecialization” is genetically/structurally speaking, both cause and effect of our ginourmous specialization in a great big brain. And the fact that we spend a very long time post-partum nurturing a baby until it can accomplish basic stuff like walk and chew food isn’t because we are born some kind of amorphous lump either—it’s because a big brain doesn’t do much good if it comes pre-programmed, considering that the selective advantage was being able to comprehend and thus master a great diversity of environmental situations—that puts a premium on flexibility and thus an amorphous, unshaped _mind_, which of course is also easier to produce than appropriate pre-programming.

I dunno, I’m not a biologist, but I find your assumption that we have less in the way of genes than your average cat or porcupine bizarre and incredible.

It also seems like you are buying in to some teleology or other that says that someone or something pre-programmed evolution to produce us generic superbrains. If a Designer of some kind were kludging around, They might decide “hey, We’ll just make these humans more generic and simplify!” (But They’d have to put more genetic diversity back in for the brain, so it is not clear this wouldn’t be a wash.) But natural selection has no agenda; it isn’t an optimizing engineer. There is no reason to think that random mutations that happen to meander toward larger-brained primates would also purge and simplify cells, tissues, organs, and the whole organism.

Not even the mechanism of neoteny can justify this. Many species adapt by the relatively simple trick of retaining juvenile characteristics into adulthood; perhaps this good trick was applied again and again in human evolution. But just because the expression of genes for more adult characteristics (as typical in the parent population, that is, before the neoteny) gets muted or completely suppressed, doesn’t mean the genes have the courtesy to just vanish. They are still there, perhaps riding free as “junk DNA.” It seems more likely to me that actually they still even have expression, just more subtly; after all they were selected for in the first place for some advantage that was important to the parent population; retention in some form seems a likely compromise outcome. There is a good chance that rather than just becoming junk genes, they will work their way back into useful expression.

Why you would ever think for a moment we’d be getting by with fewer cell types is completely beyond me.

Comment #36: Mark Foxwell  on  02/18  at  10:47 AM

Thanks, Chet.  I think the evo psych proponents actually use the good intentions of pro-science people to bully us into accepting their evidence-free theories. I won’t lie; walking the line is hard. But a fun challenge.

I love that they measured “hostile sexists”, because only about 1% of that group will even admit that they’re sexist.  Think about our resident dimwit Dana—-he thinks of himself as an eye-twinkling grandpa, but he’s admitted that he treats his wife and daughters like pets and servants and he’s mildly obsessed with me because I’m an outspoken woman.  A clear hostile sexist, but would never, ever admit it.  I wonder what they used for a test.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/18  at  11:12 AM

Evo-psych seems like an attempt to bring back behaviorism and while biology probably has some effect on behavior it is unlikely that it drives all behaviors to the point that we are all just spectaters in our own lives.

Comment #38: John Rove  on  02/18  at  11:25 AM

I agree with KMac, there is something strange about it….

“It’s only since women got education and the vote (i.e. since they started getting the power to say no to unwanted sex) that scientists and popular culture have gotten the notion that women have less powerful libidos than men.”

Comment #39: TinaNanez  on  02/18  at  11:32 AM

Any non-foolish evolutionary psychologist will tell you that it’s not “bank balances” that women find attractive, it’s social status.

And any non-foolish social scientist will tell the non-foolish evolutionary psychologist that this is because women are raised practically from birth to look for a “provider”. 

My mother started with the “marry well” bullcrap starting at puberty, every “classic” work of literature women are supposed to like stresses the same sorts of ideas (*cough*Austen*cough*), and most media portrayals of romance go along with it, as well.  An aunt of mine disowned my cousin for marrying the assistant manager of a local video store, something she thought was “below” her daughter.  If you’re a woman who in any way wants to eventually settle down with someone (of either gender, probably), especially if you are middle class, it’s a form of social conditioning that’s practically impossible to escape.

If this was genetic, there would be no need to heavily propagandize it and force it on women.  Nobody had to convince me to have grey eyes, or straight brown hair, or my grandmother’s nose.

Comment #40: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  11:35 AM

But what’s interesting is that in some parts of our society, women’s attractiveness rises with their social status.  Guess which ones!  Yep, more liberal ones.  I know that it got to be easier to get a date as I made a little more money and had more status, but this sort of thing is less true of women I know in more conservative communities.

Though in more conservative communities, social status that is conferred by family magically makes a woman just as attractive as social status conferred by achievement does in more liberal ones.  It’s kind of amazing how all the guys at my Catholic high school inevitably thought that the rich girls were more attractive than the poor ones.  I got out of there after that, but I’d guess that ultimately it’s still true as people get older.

Men look for status, too.  They just couch it in “attractiveness”.

Comment #41: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  11:47 AM

Any non-foolish evolutionary psychologist will tell you that it’s not “bank balances” that women find attractive, it’s social status.

I always find these “studies” to be extremely annoying, because they rarely take into account the events and experiences of the intervening 20-30 years between the time when our genes were determined and the moment that they interview us.

And I’m not just talking about social conditioning.

I’m a woman. In apparent agreement with evo psych, I happen to be attracted to older men with money and high social status! I also just happen to have severe physical disabilities of the sort that means that I and any children I have will need a mature caregiver who comes equipped with good medical insurance and a decent nest egg in case one or both of us ever gets fired / laid off / incapacitated in a manner not covered by disability leave / etc. I’ve known this from a VERY young age.

Which basically means that my time and efforts can go towards supporting myself, or they can go to a person who wants to help me support myself, but they definitely can NOT go to an emotionally immature person who wants/needs me to contribute 100% of the money and effort around the house so that they can play XBOX all day. When I am not interested in certain men who fit this mold - regardless of how wonderful their personalities can sometimes be - it irks me that the Evo Psychs nod their heads sagely and say, Ah-ha! She doesn’t care about his personality, she just wants a walking wallet.

To clarify - I’m not looking for someone to take care of me. But when I DO look for a life partner, I want someone who can at least pull his own weight, as I’m unlikely to be able to support both myself and him. And, ideally, he can support both of us, in the likely chance that I will become more permanently disabled in the future - otherwise, I’d rather stay single because I don’t want to bring the person I love down into abject poverty with my medical bills. And I definitely do not want to have children without being reasonably certain that they will be medically cared for if they inherit my disabilities.

Whether this is selfish or not (I prefer to think it prudent), it’s definitely NOT evolutionary. Unless you want to argue that the strain of genetics that causes my disability ALSO comes packaged with a strain of genetics that causes me to seek companionship only with responsible caregiver types. Which is possible, but don’t use me as a tool to club the rest of women out there - Essie is evolutionarily programmed to seek a caregiver, therefore you must, too!

Comment #42: Essie Elephant  on  02/18  at  12:40 PM

every “classic” work of literature women are supposed to like stresses the same sorts of ideas (*cough*Austen*cough*)

I’m afraid I’m going to have to call bullshit on that one.

Elizabeth Bennett refuses not one but two marriage proposals, both from highly “eligible” men - one of whom will inherit her eventual home and virtually guarantee financial security not just for herself, but for her family as well.

Emma Woodhouse rejects the wealthy, fashionable Fank Churchill for the much less fabulously rich and exciting Mr Knightley.

Eleanor Dashwood marries Edward Ferrars after he was disinherited by his mother and can offer her only a clergyman’s income with few prospects.

Fanny Price refuss to have anything to do with the independent and rich Henry Crawford, cleaving instead to her cousin Edmund, a second son and, again, a clergyman of relatively modest means.

Katherine Moreland falls in love with yet another clergyman second son, Henry Tilney, without knowing anything about his means; she goes on to accept his hand in marriage while his future financial status is highly uncertain.

Ann Elliot spurns two wealthy, convenient and socially acceptable matches in favour of her long lost love, who is a professional man and not a pamepred gentleman.

Apologies of this is seen as thread-jacking, but I get just as fed up with people ignorantly piling accusations on Jane Austen as I do with them piling justifications onto my DNA. The humanities deserve the same high standard of proof and information as the sciences do, and have just as much to teach us about the human condition (well, in fact I would argue they have more, actually). Failure to grok this fact and engage with the complexity of art is exactly the source of the kind of lazy scientism that looks to FMRI scans to explain away human interactions and attitudes.

Comment #43: MarinaS  on  02/18  at  12:56 PM

I read some briefs of that study and found it disturbing because it’s pretty in line with what I’ve heard anecdotally from men who are trying to stop objectifying women: that there are some men for whom their ability to empathize goes down as their arousal goes up. What this says to me is not that men are evolutionarily programmed to see women they want to have sex with as subhuman; if there’s any basis for this study at all it would seem to me to be that the society we live in is so damaging to men that it apparently causes some of them actual brain damage. But this is partially because I’ve talked to men who are trying to stop objectifying women, and several of them have told me that this is actually a reversible process with effort and less porn.

Comment #44: purpleshoes  on  02/18  at  01:22 PM

<blockquote>if there’s any basis for this study at all it would seem to me to be that the society we live in is so damaging to men that it apparently causes some of them actual brain damage.<blockquote>

No, don’t make jumps like that.  It’s not brain damage.  There’s a difference between parts of the brain not activating because it just doesn’t, and not activating because it can’t.

That said, there is one thing that study doesn’t address which might be relevant.  Viewing another person as an object to be used and not having any empathy for them is sociopathy (or whatever the currently accepted term is), which leads to an actual interesting question: are some of the more sexist (but not necessarily violent) men inherent sociopaths who have women as the primary focus of their disorder, or are they just imitating the symptoms of sociopathy because they are so sexist?  Or the combination?

The difference is important: if it’s learned behaviour, like racial bigotry, then it can be unlearned.  If it’s symptomatic of an actual disorder, then that’s different.

Comment #45: KeithM  on  02/18  at  01:51 PM

But, TheLady, every one of those Austen heriones rebelled against the expectations of the era, which were made explicitly clear in every one of her novels.

Comment #46: DonnaDiva  on  02/18  at  03:01 PM

KeithM, a useful distinction, I haven’t taken any kind of neuroscience class (bless geology 101) and neither have many of the people reporting on this, I think. I’m trying to figure this out as I go along. Like I said, I’ve talked to men who reported experiencing this process and finding it reversible.

The sociopathy connection was something I did consider. Whatever the science turns out to be, I think it might be useful to be able to articulate that this is a sociopathic view towards other human beings. Rhetorically, if nothing else.

What’s really distressing about this study is how I’ve seen it greeted with a lot of “amirite, ladies?”. It’s amazing how studies like this about men end up being about women and how we Just Shouldn’t Expect Too Much. Like being able to be naked and a person at the same time.

Comment #47: purpleshoes  on  02/18  at  03:03 PM

TheLady I too, dearly love Austen and always found it interesting how she juxtaposed the conventions of her society of which she was a sharp observer, with the choices of her heroines to flout those conventions, with everyone around them trying to force them into accepting the conventional. The only character that comes to mind who HAD to marry for convention is Charlotte Lucas, in “Pride and Prejudice,” who marries the boor William Collins, because for her the choice is between a marriage of convenience and sliding into spinsterish poverty.

What people who give Austen a cursory reading seem to come off thinking is that Austen was in agreement with her society’s conventions, completely missing the subtle criticisms she offered in the often comedic twists of her characters’ relationships.

Austen’s subtleties often go over people’s heads, which is why it’s often mistaken that she is obsessed with having people marry well.

Comment #48: LCforevah  on  02/18  at  03:22 PM

But when I DO look for a life partner, I want someone who can at least pull his own weight, as I’m unlikely to be able to support both myself and him.

Yep.  Obviously permanent physical limitations are one really good reason to come to this realization early in life, but I think it’s a reality for a lot of women, and it probably should be the reality for most people.  For me, the main reason for this is my own career and the basic realities of my life.  I’m an artsy creative type with a BA in a social sciences field.  It’s very unlikely that I’m going to wake up tomorrow and discover that I’m a millionaire.  It’s very unlikely that I will ever be able to completely support a spouse.  Of course, I’m also not looking for a partner who would support me, either.  But the reality that I just don’t have room in my life for someone who wants to sit home and play xBox all day is something I’m very aware of.

Comment #49: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  03:36 PM

<i>I’m afraid I’m going to have to call bullshit on that one. <i>

Have you actually read Austen?

I mean, sure, she tends to write about independent women who want to have a certain degree of control over who they ultimately marry, many of whom choose someone who will be a good match for them without necessarily going for the biggest bank account.  Her heroines aren’t “gold diggers” or anything like that.  Austen’s books are very well-written, anyhow, and it’s obvious that she was rather liberal for her time, bla bla bla yadda yadda.  I made that reference not to point out how horrid and reactionary Jane Austen’s work is, but simply to mention that the vast majority of “classic” books that women are supposed to like tend to deal with the need to obtain a good marriage.  Austen and her peers aren’t exactly famous for writing tales of rich women who married paupers out of pure and simple love, or ran away with gypsies, or went to medical school, or decided they’d rather starve in the gutter than marry a man who could provide for them.

It would be unfair to pretend that Austen and other 19th century novelists writing about middle class and wealthy women’s lives did not portray their characters as living in a world where it was important to choose one’s husband well (which definitely included material means).  That’s really all I was saying.

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  03:57 PM

because for her the choice is between a marriage of convenience and sliding into spinsterish poverty.

Every Austen character I’ve ever come across has been in the same boat.  The difference is that the spunky independent characters we identify with land a really great catch they happen to be delighted with.  They would have to marry someone either way - they just all get lucky and find someone they want to marry.  The only possible exception is Emma Woodhouse, who has a few chapters going on about how she’ll never marry, just stay with her father as a spinster.  But the only reason it’s even an option for her is that her older sister has married well, and it’s likely that her sister’s husband would agree to support Emma as well after their father died, considering the huge fortune he’ll inherit from her side of the family.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  04:04 PM

Austen is always a touchy subject.

Or, for another work, look at Jane Eyre. It’s not a particularly feminist piece - read it today and you’ll think that it’s okay for men to keep their insane wives locked in the attic, for them to sexually harass the help and treat them like shit in order to provoke sexual tension and jealousy, and that it’s perfectly acceptable for missionary men to condescend to complete strangers, as long as they are women.

For the time, however, you could argue that the piece was a radical piece of feminism in that the insane wife was treated as kindly as possible (and he even risked his life to save her from a fire she herself started) and that the hired help (and complete stranger) was not brutally raped early and often.

I don’t know how you get around this. When I read Austen (English degree over here), I tried to appreciate the “feminist” elements for the time. When some of my English major peers read Austen, all they took away was how super-dreamy the assholish men were and OHMIGAWD I WANT TO MARRY AND HAVE CHILDREN NOW.

I tend to think that Austen et. al. is just something that can fall either way on the feminist scale, depending on how you chose to view it. And I think both views are correct.

But, oh man, Opo, I would have loved it if Austen had written “run off to be a gypsy” stories instead. I kind of like Moll Flanders, so that’s something I guess.

Comment #52: Essie Elephant  on  02/18  at  04:04 PM

Lots of women have never had good sex.

Isn’t it like 33% of women have NEVER had an orgasm during sex?

Comment #53: angulimala  on  02/18  at  04:05 PM

Just follow up on what PhysioProf said, I’m an evolutionary biologist too, and I find most of evo-psych to be based on overblown claims with poor experimental design (not to mention some dodgy statistical inference).  Worse, there’s no notion of basic evolutionary concepts like norms of reaction, and phenotypic plasticity.  That isn’t to say we can’t (or don’t) find genetic correlates with behavior, but these have to be really rigorously assessed.  Typically, in evo-psych, they’re not.

Comment #54: Mike the Mad Biologist  on  02/18  at  04:10 PM

Have you actually read Austen?

Are you actually trying to start a flamewar?

Austen and her peers aren’t exactly famous for writing tales of rich women who married paupers out of pure and simple love, or ran away with gypsies, or went to medical school, or decided they’d rather starve in the gutter than marry a man who could provide for them.

It’s unclear who you mean by Austen’s “peers”. Her contemporaries, such as for example Mrs. Radcliffe, who she freely lampooned in Northanger Abbey, for the most part wrote titillating Gothic fiction, big on the billowing nightgowns and fetishised rape, not so big on self actualisation or mature, considered affection.

If by “peers” you mean the likes of the Bronte sisters, well then first of all they wrote a generation after Austen’s death, and secondly they weren’t exactly radical proponents of playing Happy Families, either. Agnes Gray gets raped, Jane Ayre is abused, duped and almost falls into bigamy, and as for Catherine Earnshaw, well!

Or were you thinking of Elizabeth Gaskell? Because she’s not exactly overflowing with Prince Charming tropes, either. So, I say again, I’m not sure who you’re trying to genralise about and what your generalisation entails. There are other, more subtle ways to criticise social mores than writing about running away to the circus.

There are, as it happens, characters in Jane Austen’s novels who do not necessarily make the choices that are expected of them, or the ones that are seen as most expedient in their social circle and circumstances. We are not told, for example, why Miss Bates (like Jane Austen herself, incidentally) chose to remain single and sink into comparative poverty - but she did. Lady Russel and Lady Catherine De Bourgh (rich) and Mrs Dashwood (poor) also choose not to remarry, despite all of them apparently being reasonably young when widowed. Mrs Frances Price, Lydia Wickham and Maria Rushworth (as well as the latter’s sister Julia, to a lesser degree) all make radically dissident choices, but suffer very different degrees of consequences, not all of them as punishingly predictable as you’d perhaps expect.

If you can’t extract this moral variety from just six relatively sohrt books, then you stand very little chance of desyphering the complexity of real life and actual human emotion. Jane Auten may have had a narrow canvas on which to paint, but she did so with great variety and attention to details, and significantly more subtelty than the majority of the “it’s all hard-wired” crowd can uster. That, as well as my (rather verbose, I’m afraid) passion for Austen is what moved me to call you on your original implication that she is somehow responsible for the social trend towards marriage as an economic necessity, rather than commenting on it and criticising it.

Comment #55: MarinaS  on  02/18  at  05:31 PM

Or, for another work, look at Jane Eyre. It’s not a particularly feminist piece - read it today and you’ll think that it’s okay for men to keep their insane wives locked in the attic, for them to sexually harass the help and treat them like shit in order to provoke sexual tension and jealousy, and that it’s perfectly acceptable for missionary men to condescend to complete strangers, as long as they are women.

I call bullshit on THIS.

Have you read “Jane Eyre” lately? I adapted into a play - because it’s so fucking feminist. And not just for its time.

Rochester was not a perfect person. But what was he supposed to do with his violently insane wife? Seriously. What were the options for a man married to an insane woman in those days. Charlotte Bronte inadvertently embarrassed Thackeray by dedicating “Jane Eyre” to him - because he had an insane wife. And he also had a mistress. The difference was that Bronte has Jane refuse to live with Rochester while he is still married. She refused to be his mistress. And she only goes back to him once she is financially independent - and his wife has died.

Comment #56: Nancy  on  02/18  at  06:17 PM

and that it’s perfectly acceptable for missionary men to condescend to complete strangers, as long as they are women.

You could not be more wrong. Go back and read the book.

Comment #57: Nancy  on  02/18  at  06:19 PM

I call bullshit on THIS.

Have you read “Jane Eyre” lately? I adapted into a play - because it’s so fucking feminist. And not just for its time.

Yes, I have, thank you. smile

It can be seen as a feminist piece, yes. I said that. However it can also be seen as a very sexist piece, depending on your viewpoint. And, as I pointed out, both views are valid.

If you want some examples of un-feminist moments in Jane Eyre, I happily point to the following:

1. Rochester’s complete unwillingness to treat Jane like an equal. Seriously, he manipulates her throughout the novel. He pretends to flirt with other women in order to try to manipulate Jane into a jealous “acceptance” of her feelings for him. He isn’t honest with her about his insane wife, in spite of the fact that Jane’s life is demonstrably in danger just being in that house with her (she DOES burn the house down, after all, and after several “close calls”).

2. Bronte is quite adamant that being a happy mistress in this situation is completely immoral. Bronte deserves to have this opinion, but I wouldn’t call it “feminist” or at least not “humanist”. The insane wife is unfortunate, but there is no reason that Rochester and Jane shouldn’t take care of her for the rest of her life AND be happy and guilt-free. Bronte sets up a situation in which Rochester is blameless (or nearly so), but Jane treats him like a leper for the mere fact that he’s married against his will to an insane woman. Way to go Jane.

3. Missionary boy is a complete control freak and Jane (and Bronte) resist the sisters’ attempts to point out that he is almost literally sucking Jane’s life force from her. She leaves to go be with Rochester, but it’s clear that she does not begrudge MB for treating her like a servant with no will of her own worth considering.

And that’s just three major ones. If you want to be insulting, feel free, but I submit that - having written a play on the topic - you are not sufficiently emotionally divorced from the topic to be unbaised.

Comment #58: Essie Elephant  on  02/18  at  06:42 PM

I don’t know how you get around this. When I read Austen (English degree over here), I tried to appreciate the “feminist” elements for the time. When some of my English major peers read Austen, all they took away was how super-dreamy the assholish men were and OHMIGAWD I WANT TO MARRY AND HAVE CHILDREN NOW.

Yeah, and that’s sort of what my point was.  Not so much to say that Austen’s work is reactionary (it wasn’t at all, in its day, and, yes, there’s a wink and a nudge about what Austen really thinks of the system she portrays), but that it, along with the work of other similar writers, is often put out there as Great Literature For Chicks.  While obviously many of us can read this stuff with nuance, or critique it politically and then move on to enjoy other aspects, a lot of women take the OMIGOD MR KNIGHTLEY IS SO DREAMY stuff to heart.  And while I don’t think 19th Century Women’s Novels ought to be banned, I do think we should be aware of the way they’re used in our culture.

Comment #59: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  07:00 PM

It’s unclear who you mean by Austen’s “peers”.

I meant other female writers who are often lumped into the same category with her - the Brontes, for example.

Comment #60: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  07:01 PM

well then first of all they wrote a generation after Austen’s death

I’m not sure if you knew this, but even a generation after Austen’s death, well off women were still expected to marry men who could materially provide for them.  Which is the only reason I brought up Austen - as a writer who wrote “classic” literature which stresses the MARRY A PROVIDER meme (as does the vast majority of art/culture, both high and low, aimed at women even now). 

And not in a judgmental way, at all—that was the reality of her time, and the next generation’s time, and pretty much every generation’s time until the 20th century.  And it’s something that, by and large, you still see vestiges of.  As a woman in the early 21st century I can go out and get a job and support myself.  And yet my mother started me on the “marry a provider!” bullcrap at age 13.  It would still shock a lot of people if I never married at all (or if I married well below my social class, or married someone I knew could not contribute materially to the household, etc etc etc).  So informing me that the Bronte sisters came after Jane Austen chronologically is kind of beside the point.

Jeeebusssss…  Remind me never to type the word “Austen” into any blog comment, ever again…

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  02/18  at  07:10 PM

Jeeebusssss… Remind me never to type the word “Austen” into any blog comment, ever again…

Or “Jane Eyre” or “Bronte”. smile

But, seriously, one hits this EVERY time the “feminism” of literature and movie works are considered, particularly ones that are products of their time.

Is “Bride Wars” or whatever tripe is out this weekend feminist? No, because it insists that a wedding is necessary for a happy ending. Is such-and-so 19th century author feminist when her books all end in a happy ending ordained by marriage? Depends on how you define feminist, relative to what was acceptable at the time.

Fluid definitions. smile

Comment #62: Essie Elephant  on  02/18  at  07:29 PM

Well, of course we men find social status attractive, too. We just don’t always admit to it. (For example, it isn’t a Photoshop-perfect body that put Tina Fey on lists of the world’s sexiest women.) And it’s not like finding social status attractive is stupid. Who wouldn’t want to have a mate that everyone else looks up to and respects, instead of some loser who, well, plays video games in his parents’ basement all day? (Generally speaking, if humans have something in common with other primates, there’s probably at least some genetic basis for it - and I’d be very surprised if female chimpanzees don’t have at least some preference for alpha males.)

It’s very easy to get confused when trying to reason about evolutionary psychology. What natural selection operates on and what people care about are two completely separate things.

Comment #63: Doug S.  on  02/18  at  07:59 PM

From Doug S.‘s link:

Consider, O my readers, this sordid and joyful tale:  A man and a woman meet in a bar.  The man is attracted to her clear complexion and firm breasts, which would have been fertility cues in the ancestral environment, but which in this case result from makeup and a bra.  This does not bother the man; he just likes the way she looks.  His clear-complexion-detecting neural circuitry does not know that its purpose is to detect fertility, any more than the atoms in his hand contain tiny little XML tags reading “pick things up</purpose>”.  The woman is attracted to his confident smile and firm manner, cues to high status, which in the ancestral environment would have signified the ability to provide resources for children.  She plans to use birth control, but her confident-smile-detectors don’t know this any more than a toaster knows its designer intended it to make toast.  She’s not concerned philosophically with the meaning of this rebellion, because her brain is a creationist and denies vehemently that evolution exists.  He’s not concerned philosophically with the meaning of this rebellion, because he just wants to get laid.  They go to a hotel, and undress.  He puts on a condom, because he doesn’t want kids, just the dopamine-noradrenaline rush of sex, which reliably produced offspring 50,000 years ago when it was an invariant feature of the ancestral environment that condoms did not exist.  They have sex, and shower, and go their separate ways.  The main objective consequence is to keep the bar and the hotel and condom-manufacturer in business; which was not the cognitive purpose in their minds, and has virtually nothing to do with the key statistical regularities of reproduction 50,000 years ago which explain how they got the genes that built their brains that executed all this behavior.

To reason correctly about evolutionary psychology you must simultaneously consider many complicated abstract facts that are strongly related yet importantly distinct, without a single mixup or conflation.

Comment #64: DonnaDiva  on  02/18  at  09:44 PM

You seem to believe that “novels that contain events that are not pro-feminist” = “this novel does not have feminist sensibilities.”

1. Rochester’s complete unwillingness to treat Jane like an equal. Seriously, he manipulates her throughout the novel. He pretends to flirt with other women in order to try to manipulate Jane into a jealous “acceptance” of her feelings for him. He isn’t honest with her about his insane wife, in spite of the fact that Jane’s life is demonstrably in danger just being in that house with her (she DOES burn the house down, after all, and after several “close calls”).

Rochester is no saint. Jane is aware of this but loves him anyway. She forgives him. And Rochester pays for keeping the insane wife around. When Jane returns to him, he is dependent on her. None of this is anti-feminist. Unless to forgive is anti-feminist and to present non-perfect characters in a novel is anti-feminist.

2. Bronte is quite adamant that being a happy mistress in this situation is completely immoral. Bronte deserves to have this opinion, but I wouldn’t call it “feminist” or at least not “humanist”. The insane wife is unfortunate, but there is no reason that Rochester and Jane shouldn’t take care of her for the rest of her life AND be happy and guilt-free. Bronte sets up a situation in which Rochester is blameless (or nearly so), but Jane treats him like a leper for the mere fact that he’s married against his will to an insane woman. Way to go Jane.

Clearly you don’t understand the socio-economic underpinnings of Jane’s situation. If she went off with Rochester to France as his mistress, she would be completely economically dependent on him, without even any legal protections of marriage. A huge issue for Bronte was women’s right to be self-sufficient.

As Lucasta Miller, in her critique of Polly Teale’s adaptation remarked: When the madwoman is discovered and the wedding between Jane and Rochester broken off, the implication of the Shared Experience production (of Teale’s adaptation) is that Jane runs away because she cannot face her own passions. We are left feeling that she should have followed her instinct and united herself with Rochester anyway - that it was only fear and repression that stopped her from becoming his lover. However, this suggests a rather anachronistic view of sex outside marriage. In the original text, Jane’s escape from Thornfield is presented not just as tragic self-denial but as an act of empowering self-assertion.

Comment #65: Nancy  on  02/19  at  01:43 AM

3. Missionary boy is a complete control freak and Jane (and Bronte) resist the sisters’ attempts to point out that he is almost literally sucking Jane’s life force from her. She leaves to go be with Rochester, but it’s clear that she does not begrudge MB for treating her like a servant with no will of her own worth considering.

Really? Then why does this appear in the book?


“No.  St. John, I will not marry you.  I adhere to my resolution.”

The avalanche had shaken and slid a little forward, but it did not yet crash down.

“Once more, why this refusal?” he asked.

“Formerly,” I answered, “because you did not love me; now, I reply, because you almost hate me.  If I were to marry you, you would kill me.  You are killing me now.”

His lips and cheeks turned white—quite white.

“I should kill you—I am killing you?  Your words are such as ought not to be used: violent, unfeminine, and untrue.  They betray an unfortunate state of mind: they merit severe reproof: they would seem inexcusable, but that it is the duty of man to forgive his fellow even until seventy-and-seven times.”

I had finished the business now.  While earnestly wishing to erase from his mind the trace of my former offence, I had stamped on that tenacious surface another and far deeper impression, I had burnt it in.

“Now you will indeed hate me,” I said.  “It is useless to attempt to conciliate you: I see I have made an eternal enemy of you.”

A fresh wrong did these words inflict: the worse, because they touched on the truth.  That bloodless lip quivered to a temporary spasm.  I knew the steely ire I had whetted.  I was heart-wrung.

“You utterly misinterpret my words,” I said, at once seizing his hand: “I have no intention to grieve or pain you—indeed, I have not.”

Most bitterly he smiled—most decidedly he withdrew his hand from mine.  “And now you recall your promise, and will not go to India at all, I presume?” said he, after a considerable pause.

“Yes, I will, as your assistant,” I answered.

A very long silence succeeded.  What struggle there was in him between Nature and Grace in this interval, I cannot tell: only singular gleams scintillated in his eyes, and strange shadows passed over his face.  He spoke at last.

“I before proved to you the absurdity of a single woman of your age proposing to accompany abroad a single man of mine.  I proved it to you in such terms as, I should have thought, would have prevented your ever again alluding to the plan.  That you have done so, I regret—for your sake.”

I interrupted him.  Anything like a tangible reproach gave me courage at once.  “Keep to common sense, St. John: you are verging on nonsense.  You pretend to be shocked by what I have said.  You are not really shocked: for, with your superior mind, you cannot be either so dull or so conceited as to misunderstand my meaning.  I say again, I will be your curate, if you like, but never your wife.”

Again he turned lividly pale; but, as before, controlled his passion perfectly.  He answered emphatically but calmly—

“A female curate, who is not my wife, would never suit me.  With me, then, it seems, you cannot go: but if you are sincere in your offer, I will, while in town, speak to a married missionary, whose wife needs a coadjutor.  Your own fortune will make you independent of the Society’s aid; and thus you may still be spared the dishonour of breaking your promise and deserting the band you engaged to join.”

Now I never had, as the reader knows, either given any formal promise or entered into any engagement; and this language was all much too hard and much too despotic for the occasion.  I replied—

“There is no dishonour, no breach of promise, no desertion in the case.  I am not under the slightest obligation to go to India, especially with strangers.  With you I would have ventured much, because I admire, confide in, and, as a sister, I love you; but I am convinced that, go when and with whom I would, I should not live long in that climate.”

“Ah! you are afraid of yourself,” he said, curling his lip.

“I am.  God did not give me my life to throw away; and to do as you wish me would, I begin to think, be almost equivalent to committing suicide.  Moreover, before I definitively resolve on quitting England, I will know for certain whether I cannot be of greater use by remaining in it than by leaving it.”

Comment #66: Nancy  on  02/19  at  01:55 AM

There is no doubt that dealing with St. John IS a struggle for Jane. Her character is a devout Christian and his is a minister as well as a charismatic and handsome. But this exchange clearly refutes your claim that Jane does not begrudge St. John. She says he would KILL HER. For Jane’s character to even have enough self-possession to talk to a minister that way was radical for the time. And one of the reasons why, in spite of the fact that Jane looks to us like a total fundamentalist, “Jane Eyre” was accused of being anti-Christian.

Comment #67: Nancy  on  02/19  at  01:55 AM

Oh yes, and the novel closes with news of St. John’s death in India.

Comment #68: Nancy  on  02/19  at  01:56 AM

I submit that - having written a play on the topic - you are not sufficiently emotionally divorced from the topic to be unbaised.

Why would you think that? And I thought the book was feminist before I adapted it, that’s why I adapted it. One reason, at least. In addition, I wrote the adaptation over a year ago. How long after adapting a novel is one then sufficiently divorced from the topic to be “unbiased” - or is this a life-long sentence? From now on my opinions of “Jane Eyre” are not to be trusted since I adapted it into a play?

Comment #69: Nancy  on  02/19  at  01:59 AM

I find it intensely amusing that we have moved from this:

NANCY: Have you read “Jane Eyre” lately? I adapted into a play - because it’s so fucking feminist. And not just for its time.

to this:

NANCY: For Jane’s character to even have enough self-possession to talk to a minister that way was radical for the time.

Which is pretty much why I said in my first post:

ESSIE: For the time, however, you could argue that the piece was a radical piece of feminism

I will totes hold my breath while I await your sincere apology for insulting me by insisting that I clearly hadn’t read the book because you didn’t like the fact that someone else has an opinion about your most favorite novel. THAT is why you are “unbiased”. Not because you wrote a play or three. *eyeroll*

Comment #70: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  11:47 AM

Quoth The Opoponax:

I’m not sure if you knew this, but even a generation after Austen’s death, well off women were still expected to marry men who could materially provide for them.

Srsly, dude, why all the sarcasm? I’ll still think you’re plenty intelligent and deserving of engaging with (as I plainly have been) if you’re pleasant.

a writer who wrote “classic” literature which stresses the MARRY A PROVIDER meme (as does the vast majority of art/culture, both high and low, aimed at women even now).

All literature stresses this. Classic, modern, Shakespeare, Nora Ephron, all of it. That’s because all literature from the bible onwards has been written in a patriarchal context. To expect a novel to radically depart from that paradigm is a bit like trying to be a fish out of water at the bottom of the ocean . So to call one writer out for “stressing” that paradigm is also meaningless - her characters can either acquiesce in it or rebel against it, but they can’t transcend it. I suppose what you had originally been thinking of is that not enough of Austen’s characters rebel, but as I’ve shown this is not the case, so unless you disagree specifically with the way I’ve read one of the characters, then the discussion is kind of stuck, no?

Rejoined Essie Elephant:

Is “Bride Wars” or whatever tripe is out this weekend feminist? No, because it insists that a wedding is necessary for a happy ending. Is such-and-so 19th century author feminist when her books all end in a happy ending ordained by marriage? Depends on how you define feminist, relative to what was acceptable at the time.

Lumping Bride Wars in with Mansfield Park because they’ve both got weddings in them is like saying that your tropical fish screensaver is the same as a Jacque Cousteau program because they’re both underwater. Either we have to throw all of art and literature out the window completely (a radical but internally consistent stance) and figure ourselves out from the ground up, or we can engage with the culture we are steeped in and extract such feminist content from it as we can. But if we do the latter we have to make sure that we do it in a thoughtful, meaningful, intelligent way, not just looking at superficial plot devices and generalising from those.

To bring all of this back to the original blog post, and at least marginally on topic: to “blame” Jane Austen or any other writer for the marriage-centric culture we a re steeped in is not only wrong, it’s very dangerous. The reason being, it erases details and subtlety, which can cut both ways and undermine the feminist argument: if, after all, there really is little or not difference between a great work of literature and a sexist ad during Superbowl, then how do you deconstruct the sexist ad? You lose your credibility as an analyser of the text, and the conversartion deteriorates into a juvenile shouting match of the “it’s sexist! you’re a pig” “it’s funny! you’re frigid!” variety - and before you know it, people are falling back on bullshit evo psych for its comforting illusion of being able to resolve the ambiguity.

Comment #71: MarinaS  on  02/19  at  01:22 PM

I will totes hold my breath while I await your sincere apology for insulting me by insisting that I clearly hadn’t read the book

But I posted evidence from the novel itself of Jane’s attitude towards St. John Rivers, which clearly demonstrates that your statements about her attitude towards him were dead wrong.

I notice you avoided addressing that.

But maybe you did read the novel - but just have a huge reading comprehension problem.

Comment #72: Nancy  on  02/19  at  03:54 PM

I find it intensely amusing that we have moved from this:

  NANCY: Have you read “Jane Eyre” lately? I adapted into a play - because it’s so fucking feminist. And not just for its time.

to this:

  NANCY: For Jane’s character to even have enough self-possession to talk to a minister that way was radical for the time.

Which is pretty much why I said in my first post:

  ESSIE: For the time, however, you could argue that the piece was a radical piece of feminism

I will totes hold my breath while I await your sincere apology for insulting me by insisting that I clearly hadn’t read the book because you didn’t like the fact that someone else has an opinion about your most favorite novel. THAT is why you are “unbiased”. Not because you wrote a play or three. *eyeroll*

Yes, I guess it’s a reading comprehension issue. My saying that “self-possession to talk to a minister that way was radical for the time.” in no way invalidates the fact that the book as a whole is still feminist for all time.

Or do you fail to see the difference between one aspect of the book - attitudes towards religious men - and the book as a whole?

Comment #73: Nancy  on  02/19  at  03:56 PM

writer who wrote “classic” literature which stresses the MARRY A PROVIDER meme

All literature stresses this. Classic, modern, Shakespeare, Nora Ephron, all of it.

Oh my god, it’s intervention time. Get thee to a Barnes and Noble and buy some Atwood, and fast. Start with Edible Woman - it’s net her best, but it IS a fantastic piece that shows that “marrying a provider” can in fact be the worst fate for a woman, and her heroine narrowly escapes an unhappy marriage and an unhappy rebound relationship with a new man. After that, may I suggest House on Mango Street by Cisneros, and - oh yeah - almost every piece of serious literature written by a woman in the last 40 years.

I’m sorry, not trying to be sarcastic, but saying that “all literature” stresses the “marry a provider meme” basically tells me that you haven’t read ANYTHING past Brit Lit 101 in high school. And we totally need to rectify that because, hey, Austen is okay, but Atwood is BETTER. smile

Comment #74: Essie Elephant  on  02/19  at  08:48 PM

Essie Elephany: Oh my god, it’s intervention time.

Can we mention Tiptree? I’m unsure how “The Women Men Don’t See” or “The Screwfly Solution” could get any further away from the “marry a provider” meme.

Comment #75: grendelkhan  on  02/19  at  11:48 PM

I haven’t taken Lit 101, Essie. That’s because I a) actually read without being made to and b) have not been educated in the US. In other countries, they actually have names for courses, not just numbers; and they also, and I obviously have to stress this again because the first time didn’t take, teach you how to read into a work of art, as opposed to just reading the plot.

You can be snide and sarcastic at me all you like (what is it, some kind of local hobby?), and condescend to me and patronise me and assume that if I don’t agree with you it’s just because I simply don’t know or understand what you are educated and intelligent enough to know or understand[1], but that will not change the fact that you’ve cherry picked one single line from a long list of arguments and are just shooting it down instead of dealing with the substance of the debate.

At which point, I’m rather inclined to give up. Slinging matches are boring and pointless. Moving the goalposts to include new parameters is no substitute for engaging with the original argument. I’m not learning anything from you, and you’re not even challenging me to help me clarify my own thoughts.

I leave you to make your own mind up about whether or not I have really, genuinely never heard of Margaret Atwood. You will doubltless make whichever judgement suits you best - my ability to sway your opinion with reason and fact seems to be hopelessly lacking, which I decline at this time to use as a basis of forming an opinion of your erudition and intellect in general (a courtesy I dearly wish you could have extended to me).

TFP. HAND.

++++++++++++++++


[1] I was going to put some sarcastic little remark[3] there along the lines of “how like an X!”, but couldn’t decide between “man”, “creationist” or “republican”. Ho hum.[2]

[2] Oh and by the way, this is called a “footnote”. In real books without pictures, writers sometime use them to make a point that is important but not congruent with the immediate flow of the narrative or argument. I would expect this to be a puzzling concept to you, since your sum total of interest in a text seems to be the plotline. Feel free to ignore these like you have been ignoring the substance of the rest of my arguments.

[3] Bad manners are obviously contagious. I can only apologise.

Comment #76: MarinaS  on  02/20  at  08:46 AM

Damn!  Like the middle child that I am, I suppose I must sweep in with my (usually fruitless) efforts at conciliation.  Essie I know and admire from my many months of lurking (all this working business has seriously cut down on my own posting) and TheLady, although I don’t entirely agree with you regarding the importance of money in connection with the marital choices of some of Austen’s heroines, I agree with you entirely that a close reading of Austen’s work reveals that she disagrees entirely with the social/financial conventions (and inheritance laws) that imprison her heroines.

But it pains me to see the two of you start such a fascinating conversation, and then become so unkind, and even condescending to each other.

First of all, TheLady, in Pride and Prejudice, both Jane and Eliza marry men far wealthier than “the odious Mr Collins,” whom Charlotte Lucas weds out of financial necessity (as it was pointed out upthread), and it is Mr Darcy’s wealth that is used to bribe Whickham into ever marrying Lydia.  It is made quite clear that Mr Bennet did not have the means to effect such a marriage.

In Sense and Sensibility, Willoughby, although he loves Marianne, marries for money, and she is left to the much wealthier, older, and more sedate (or as a friend and professor would say, dour and utterly depressing) Colonel.  Lucy Stone manages to get Edward disinherited because she is so poor, which causes the family to settle cash on the younger son (which cannot be taken away) and then she marries him.  She is hardly a heroine in the book, but if you think about it, she is even in more need of a wealthy partner than the Misses Dashwood.  And Elinor’s Edward is poor, but there is at least the possibility that he will be reinherited. 

As for Emma, Frank Churchill never proposes to her!  He was engaged to Jane all along!  So I am really surprised that you mention him at all.  Emma receives a proposal from the Rev Mr Elton, who is very far below both her and Mr Knightley in social status, and eventually accepts the offer from Mr Knightley, who is quite wealthy.

Regarding Anne Elliot, although Capt. Wentworth initially did not have money and as a result did not lead the life of a leisurely gentleman, he has a lot of money, which is something her other suitor did not—which is why he wanted to win Anne and secure the title.

So the books are full of characters marrying for money, those who do not are the exceptions.  Now this does not mean that Jane Austen herself approved of it—but reading about the women in these times without getting Ms. Austen’s subtlety in her criticism of the social and financial issues (i.e., women not inheriting, which is central in P&P;as well as S&S;) DOES reinforce the provider meme.

Comment #77: Ismone  on  02/20  at  04:52 PM

Edit—they may not be marrying for money as such, but they usually end up with the wealthy men.

Comment #78: Ismone  on  02/20  at  04:56 PM
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