Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: The wingnut plot against quad development and regular bowel movements Previous entry: Breitbartocalypse, Part 826

Don’t be a slut, you prude

ChoadsSex

Damn you, Jessica Valenti.  I was about to leave the woolly, weird world of Susan Walsh behind after yesterday’s post, but your email tip pointing out that Susan straight up lied (oh no! so surprised!) on Twitter has sucked me back in.  The lie is simple—-Susan was squawking about sluts, so I asked her to tell me how many partners a woman could have before she was a slut, and she demurred, claiming to care not for this tawdry discussion of numbers.  But on her blog, she straight up says you’re a lonely, used up slutbag if that number is too high, and maybe you should consider a little dishonesty to cover up the stink. 

Your number is too high. OK, fine, you don’t want any guy who cares about how many people you’ve slept with. Problem is….that’s most guys. You don’t have to tell anyone your personal data. Just be aware that when you’re making the rounds within a certain community or group of friends, word gets out fast. I don’t think there has ever, ever been a guy who got laid and didn’t tell anyone about it afterwards. If your number is high and that fact is well known, you have every right to find a new pack of males and revirginate reinvent yourself.

I suppose the more generous interpretation is just that Susan’s a man-hater, and thinks all men are uptight yet sleazy at the same time.  Again, I’m not sure why women are supposed to want so desperately the validation of a relationship from men, if men are so terrible, but I guess it’s because we’re accept on faith that they may suck but they are our superiors and we need them to validate us. 

But I link this not just to call Susan a liar, because I did that on Twitter.  I’m linking this because it’s great evidence of a pet theory I’m working on about how skeptical tools often used to debunk horoscopes and psychics can also be used to debunk reactionary dating advice.  In particular, the confirmation bias.  It’s why psychics or astrologers can just throw a bunch of shit out there, and you’ll attach yourself to the one that seems true about you and forget all the rest.  “Do I sense a John that died of something in the heart/stomach region? No…. A name that starts with M….something in the head…. You say Mary died of brain cancer?  Yes, I’m feeling a Mary.”  Or a horoscope that says, “Today there will be some trials, but you will get through them.”  If that’s true, then you remember the horoscope being accurate.  If, in fact, you didn’t get through them, then well, you have other things on your mind, if you still have a mind.  You see how it works.

This link provides a particularly blunt version of this tactic.  Let’s start with the title: “20 Reasons You Don’t Have a Boyfriend”.  Well, I have a boyfriend, so if I was an ordinary reader instead of a feminazi hellbeast bent on revenge, I’d probably skip this article and forget the whole thing.  Things written therein that are true of me won’t be used to disprove the thesis, since I never bothered to do a rigorous experiment to find out if, as Susan suggests, sluts with some too high number that we won’t ever actually name don’t get boyfriends.  (Evasion of specifics is another tactic of charlatans.)  Unfortunately, I’m not an ordinary reader.  Or fortunately, depending on your point of view. 

But let’s dig in to the reasons that you without boyfriends don’t have them.  And no, don’t be all smart with your thinking jokes are funny shit and saying things like, “Because I have a girlfriend who would disapprove” or perhaps, “Because I just threw his shit out the front door and changed the locks.”  Because, if you’ll recall from earlier, jokes are only performed by people who think having fun is clever, and they really should know better.  Also, women who crack jokes never have boyfriends, because jokes put your oxytocin levels at the level where no man can be snagged.  It’s science, people.  I peer-reviewed it, i.e. showed it to some misogynist blog commenters and they liked it. 

1. You’re needy.

Right off the bat, we get that this is straight up bullshit.  If being needy runs the guys off, then wouldn’t the first step be to put down the blog post examining why OMFGURSTILLSINGLEWHATSWRONGWITHU, go out on the town with your girls, pick some guy up, fuck him, and then push him out the front door as soon as he starts getting that I-kinda-like-you smile?  Or at least start by not reading blog posts whose very existence says, “You, the reader, are kind of desperate and needy.”  I suspect, however, Susan Walsh doesn’t want you to stop reading her bullshit.

2. You like players. You say you want a nice guy, but you fall for the same lines again and again. You can’t resist the bad boys, the ones who have dumped on other women.


Confirmation bias in action, with a dose of tautology. Rejection is just part of dating, but every guy who rejects you gets rounded up to a “player” and every guy you rejected gets turned into the one who would have totally been the best boyfriend ever.  It’s easy to be deluded by this, because if you just say yes to every guy who asks, even if you’re not attracted to him, you will have a boyfriend by definition.  But probably not one that you like, which is something Susan doesn’t seem to think matters very much. 

3. You’re a princess. You want a man who will proclaim to the world that he is whipped as butter. He will worship the very ground you walk on. Trouble is, the only men who will happily inhabit a one-down position in a relationship have no balls. Do you really want a guy who will eagerly go to a bunch of chick flicks with you? Wouldn’t you rather accompany him to Transformers from time to time?

This is in there to destabilize premises you have that might make you resistant to her arguments, the main one being the idea that relationships should be built on rapport and mutual admiration.  The princess shit is a cover for the real argument, which is, “You will never actually find a man who you could have a real relationship with, since men and women are completely different in any way.  So drop that love model and accept my relationships-are-transactional model.”

4. You flirt too much…....

5. You’re not in the game. If you’re shy, reserved, or aloof, you are not approachable.

Confirmation bias in action.  Pick one and forget she said the other thing.  (Oh sure, I’m sure she’d say that there’s a happy medium, but of course, has no solid suggestions on what it is.)  These two start to approach what I discovered was the general theme of the post, which is, “To find out what you’re doing wrong, look down your pants.  If you find a vagina there, then you’re bound to be fucking up all the time no matter what you do.”  Much of it was basically setting women up to feel uncomfortable having self-respect or standards, for fear that they’re bitchy, high maintenance, self-absorbed, fill in your misogynist stereotype.  But what was really awesome was the continuing theme of straight up contradictions. 

Like:

16. You’re flaky. A plan is a commitment. Don’t blow someone off when something better comes along…...

19. You’re rigid. You have plans for Saturday night, but his buddies are going to a game that night, would Friday be OK? You say, “No, you made plans with me first. And Saturday is date night.”

So the advice is to make it clear that you’re just an object to be manipulated, right?  He can flake, change plans, and waste your time, but his plans are sacrosanct and your commitments to him should be honored.  So, you need to be like a toy for men, that they can just take off the shelf and play with when they like, but that has no life of her own worth mentioning, right?

No, after insulting your very dignity, she’s going to make it clear that you can’t win.

20. You’re a pushover. You put up with all kinds of crap. You allow yourself to be booty called and stood up.

So, treat his time as sacrosanct, your time as endlessly flexible, your commitments to him as unbreakable, his commitments to you as irrelevant….but don’t be a pushover.  Got it.  Perhaps you should throw darts at this and figure out which one is why you don’t have a boyfriend?  Because a lot of these can’t be true at the same time.

Still, this may have been my favorite of the “can’t win for losing, straight ladies” contradictions:

14. You’re too hard to get. Yes, everyone likes a challenge. No one likes eager or desperate. But employing “The Rules” or some other silly tactic is just going to leave you solo…...

15. Your number is too high.

Don’t be easy, except you should be easy.  Whichever one applies to you, pick it and that’s the reason you don’t have a boyfriend.  Unless you do.

There’s, I suppose, another way to read this list, but it’s no more generous.  She could just be suggesting that having a personality is your problem, and that you should moderate your traits out of existence.  If anything about you starts to form into a “trait”, someone out there probably won’t like it, and so you should get rid of it for fear it might get you rejected.  Of course, “bland” is also a trait. 

Starting advice from the position that rejection-avoidance should be your goal above all others, including finding someone compatible or being happy with yourself, is the perfect baseline to hand out reactionary gender ideology and pretend that it’s “advice”.  Conservatism in general trucks in fear as a tactic, so why not when it comes to dating “advice”?  But of course, as Jaclyn noted in her essay that kick started this whole thing, learning to take rejection with aplomb is probably one of the most valuable skills you can have in the real world of dating and sex.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:15 PM • (120) Comments

Wow, guys really don’t come off well here either, do we?

It’s like she’s unable to conceive of people having mature, adult relationships.

Comment #1: Sivi  on  08/03  at  06:38 PM

You know, if you listen to these moral panicking asshats, I shouldn’t be married.  I mean, we hooked up, did booty calls for months, and then decided, yeah, maybe we could give this relationship thing a try.

We’ve been married for 16 freaking years now.

So, tell me again, Susan Walsh, how I’m doing it wrong?

Comment #2: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/03  at  06:43 PM

“Don’t do anything you’re not supposed to do.  Unless it turns out that you were supposed to do it, in which case, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don’t not do it!!”

Who knew Professor Farnsworth’s advice on time traveling is exactly the same as Walsh’s on dating.

Comment #3: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  06:47 PM

She’s wrong about men not being able to tell.  I’ve not told many times.  And I wasn’t even cheating on anyone in those instances.  There’s just no reason to discuss every sexual encounter, since many are blah, some are pretty bad, and even the good ones with loose women are best kept to oneself in many instances.

Comment #4: 3letterjon  on  08/03  at  06:47 PM

I find the princess accusation funny. Real princesses (not Walsh’s lame definition) don’t care if a guy thinks they’re a princess. Every princess I’ve ever known will often state openly to a guy/girl (yes there are lesbian princesses but Walsh probably doesn’t think that’s possible) that they are a princess early in the relationship. I kind of envy that ability to just say, “Here I am. If you don’t like it, move along.” I think it would be very liberating.

I’m surprised not to find a “Don’t be his mother” rule. Along with a matching contradictory rule like “Always worry about his needs first” or some such nonsense.

Comment #5: shakahi  on  08/03  at  06:51 PM

Trouble is, the only men who will happily inhabit a one-down position in a relationship have no balls.

This from the same person whose touts her site as a place where women can “learn helpful strategies for reclaiming the upper hand with boys to get the relationship they want.” Make up your mind, Susan.

Yep, she’s a con artist and a liar.

I’m linking this because it’s great evidence of a pet theory I’m working on about how skeptical tools often used to debunk horoscopes and psychics can also be used to debunk reactionary dating advice.  In particular, the confirmation bias.

You’re onto something here, but I’d broaden the scope. The entire modern American conservative movement runs on the same disdain for humanity as does the average cold-reading “psychic.” It’s all about screwing over enemies and allies alike to come out on top, and confirmation bias is a major tool in this game.

Reactionary dating advice/modesty movement is just one chapter—the same tactic is used in answering the question “why aren’t you wealthy (yet)?,” “why is America losing its superpower status (and how can you help)?,” “why are we in a Great Recession (at least that’s what those defeatist libruls call it)?,” etc. It’s all about distracting people from their real self-interest so that they’ll vote for (or buy the books of, or watch the cable news shows of) the grifters who fleece them.

Comment #6: Gracchus.  on  08/03  at  06:52 PM

Dating is fun.  It is really not that hard.  You look for like minded men.  You make it clear to the ones you like that you like them.  Be yourself, but put your best foot forward.  Don’t take any crap just for the sake of having a boyfriend.  Have sex if you want to, but don’t feel obligated to have sex for any reason if you don’t feel like it. Don’t tolerate assholes who think you are somehow lesser than they are for having the same amount of sex they do.  Be prepared to accept and revel in being single when you are going through a dry spell.  You are not entitled to a boyfriend but, by the same token, the men in your dating pool aren’t entitled to have you either.  Try to avoid too much angst and just enjoy yourself, whatever happens. 

I’m an old married lady, so by Susan’s own definition, my dating life was “successful” and therefore I know whereof I speak.

Comment #7: Laurie  on  08/03  at  06:56 PM

Nope. Guys don’t come off well in this kind of nonsense. But its “true” so that makes it okay. Except it still doesn’t explain why anyone would want anything to do with us, but what evs.

Comment #8: BStu  on  08/03  at  06:56 PM

@Sivi #1 That’s the thing that gets me.  Conservatives talk about how men are these pathetic, dick-led, barely restrained animal-things with no intelligence to speak of, who will rape at the drop of a sunbonnet, yet, we’re the ones who hate men?

The hell?

Comment #9: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/03  at  06:58 PM

“You like players. You say you want a nice guy, but you fall for the same lines again and again. You can’t resist the bad boys, the ones who have dumped on other women. “

Want to spend a deeply dispiriting 5 minutes on the internet?  Google “dark triad”.

Comment #10: B405  on  08/03  at  06:58 PM

Thanks for the post and for fighting the good fight, Amanda!

On top of everything else, this woman is an amazingly shitty writer. I mean, WTF does “revirginate reinvent yourself” even mean? Isn’t she supposed to be some kind of hot-shit MBA writing teacher? I braced myself and scanned a few of her posts, and holy hell, she just should not be let anywhere near any students.

Really, everything she stands for is summed up quite neatly in her blurb where she says she provides “strategic guidance” to “managing sexual interactions.”  I don’t know about her readers, but I really don’t fancy having to “manage” my relationship as if it’s a corporate merger and sexytimes are shares to be purchased. Am I doing it wrong?

Comment #11: elena  on  08/03  at  06:59 PM

For comparison’s sake, here’s what she’s responding to:

http://www.manolith.com/2009/09/23/reasons-youre-single/

Also not particularly classy.

Comment #12: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  06:59 PM

‘I was delighted to learn that there are apparently a significant number of men who want a relationship and need advice. The piece addresses a wide range of typical male weaknesses, including questionable hygiene, douchebaggery and being “too nice.”’

I went over to have a laugh, but this just made me think “wow, that poor woman. What happened to make her hate men so much?”

Buzzkill.

Comment #13: kaje  on  08/03  at  07:00 PM

“Conservatives talk about how men are these pathetic, dick-led, barely restrained animal-things with no intelligence to speak of”

At least they put their money where their mouths are:  John Ensign, David Vitter, Newt Gingrich, etc.

Comment #14: B405  on  08/03  at  07:00 PM

Do you really want a guy who will eagerly go to a bunch of chick flicks with you?

Er, I do in fact like it when my husband eagerly accompanies me to movies I like.  Why would this Walsh person think I would somehow reject my husband for this, I wonder?  (Oh.  Because women are contemptible, and therefore a man is also contemptible if he shows an interest in things women like.  And, even though I myself am a woman, I am supposed to despise my husband if he appreciates things I like.)

Comment #15: Laurie  on  08/03  at  07:01 PM

What ever happened to sheer dumb-fucking luck?  These people who say “I did X and got a husband so you should do X to” or the people who say “I got a million dollars by doing X so you should do X too!” don’t seem to understand that there is ALWAYS an element of luck in the game.

I have a very happy relationship.  Occasionally, my friends not in a relationship ask how that happened.  My answer?  Be at the right party.  There were a million little factors that ended up that I was at Y and not Z and that’s just that.  You can go out and have a life, you can sign up for eHarmony, you can learn to be comfortable in your own skin, but at the end of the day, whether or not you’re in a good, stable, fulfilling relationship is a matter of luck happens.

Comment #16: Antigone  on  08/03  at  07:02 PM

Also this:  http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1002

I’ll start writing real thoughts instead of posting links.

Comment #17: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  07:05 PM

these people just depress the hell out of me.

Not only are they unhappy, self-imiportant losers, but they want to make themselves feel better by making everyone around them miserable as well.

How else do you explain this “advice”?  Short of a straight out con?

Comment #18: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/03  at  07:07 PM

Imaginary Headline:

WHY DO WOMEN WANT BOYFRIENDS?

Followed by an article explaining the advantages and disadvantages of boyfriends.

Comment #19: Kwillow  on  08/03  at  07:08 PM

“Your number is too high. OK, fine, you don’t want any guy who cares about how many people you’ve slept with. Problem is….that’s most guys.”

I thought guys could easily discern the sluts because they’re the ones with no petals on their flowers, right?...

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  08/03  at  07:11 PM

@MikeEss #20 - No, no, no, we’re the ones covered in saliva.

Comment #21: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/03  at  07:14 PM

Ad I just saw here:

Make Him Fall In Love
9 Tips To Instantly Set Off An Uncontrollable Attraction In A Man
somesleazywebsite.com

This crap has been going on so long, I get the feeling that there are probably cave drawings that visually depict dating “advice”. 

Best dating advice?  Don’t listen to dating advice…

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  08/03  at  07:17 PM

What always struck me as funny about “the number” is that it’s not really correlated to the number of times a person has had sex, which is supposed to be the act that uses you up or whatever crap Walsh is telling us.

Someone who goes home with a new partner twice a month for a night of casual, semianonymous sex will run up a number of 24 in a year, and have sex 24 times a year.  A person dating the same partner all year will have a number of 1, but may well be trying to figure out how to have more sex with that partner if they’re only screwing twice a month.

Comment #23: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  07:17 PM

How old is this woman?  the last time a date/potential bf asked me how many men I’d slept with I was in my 20’s.  Maybe that’s her target audience.  If a guy asked me that now I’d give him a “are you kidding me?” look and there’d be no future dates with him.  But no one has asked it.  I can’t even imagine my partner’s reaction if I asked him he wanted to know how many guys I’d slept with before him.

And the simple fact is; I no longer know the number.

At what point do you simply stop keeping track?  I’m in my early 40’s, maybe that’s why this is so astounding to me, I don’t know.

Oh, and for Walsh:  I have a “boyfriend” whenever I decide I want one dear.  I’m sorry to hear of your troubles though.

Comment #24: JennyLI  on  08/03  at  07:17 PM

“Don’t do anything you’re not supposed to do.  Unless it turns out that you were supposed to do it, in which case, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don’t not do it!!”

“Ohhh! A lesson in not changing history from Mr. I’m-my-own-grandfather.”

Shorter Susan Walsh: Fucked and slut-shamed if you do. Fucked (but not in a good way) and lonely if you don’t.

Comment #25: shakahi  on  08/03  at  07:19 PM

It really chaps my ass that so many people insist on framing dating as a motherfucking game. I’ll admit that ANY social situation requires some choreography in the form of manners, basic customs, etc, but I don’t recall a single occasion wherein I thought, “Of course Brad never called! I violated the #15 rule and he would OF COURSE know who’s been in my vagina because he’s a man and they all talk!”

I’m in my mid-twenties and single. It’s difficult to navigate that dating pool without running into approximately 893471937 overgrown frat boys who think Colt 45 is a hilarious and ironic beverage. And yet I STILL manage to meet plenty of men who have expressed interest in spending time with me or even just fucking because they enjoy being around me. It’s rarely the kind of mercenary situation that dating is clearly supposed to be, at least according to Susan Walsh. Amanda has touched on this fucked-up assumption about sex and dating as commodities and it just thrills me when she does. She’s absolutely right.

The best relationship I ever had was in college. He was my supervisor at work and we started sneaking around together specifically to drink pretentious beer and have sex. Except for things like “Pull my hair a little” or “Harder, please”, we never told each other what to do. We had a great time and it was more mutually respectful than any other sexual relationship I’ve had. EXPLAIN THAT, SUSAN.

Comment #26: pajmahal  on  08/03  at  07:25 PM

How old is this woman?

That’s the first thing I wondered. I’m 45, and no one my age cares about this stuff. No. One.

I don’t think there has ever, ever been a guy who got laid and didn’t tell anyone about it afterwards.

I slept with a woman in 1991 and have never told anyone. I also only watch the Transformers movies because my 11-year-old likes them. Does this woman know any actual men? Does she like them?

Comment #27: RickMassimo  on  08/03  at  07:33 PM

@9:

It’s the same thing with religious types who insist women need to dress modestly because otherwise it provokes lust in men.  While I’m chorusing along with everyone else that they’re being male chauvinist assholes, I also wonder if they realize what they’re saying about men.

Comment #28: Sivi  on  08/03  at  07:33 PM

So, who is Mr. Susan Walsh when he’s at home?

Is there a Mr. Susan Walsh, at all?

Surely, no-hookup-means-marriage Susan trapped a hubby with her fine hubby trapping skills?

Nuthin’ about him, or much else, in Walsh’s skimpy “bio,” except an MBA in 1983 from The Wharton School, working the corporation gigs, (which I doubt trains one to be a sexuality or marriage counselor) and:

“I came of age during the 70s and 80s, witnessing (and enjoying) the effects of the sexual revolution.”
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/about-hooking-up-smart/

Translation: I had my fun, but no, no, none for you!”

Comment #29: judybrowni  on  08/03  at  07:40 PM

An MBA in 1983!  She’s older than me and by more than a couple of years.  I graduated high school in 1986.  Wow, that is surprising. 

As Rick just said, nobody in our age group cares about this stuff.  We don’t talk about it, we don’t even think about it.  I can’t even remember the last conversation I had about this, but it was definitely before I left my 20’s. 

This seems like a case of a developmental…impediment.

Very strange stuff.

Comment #30: JennyLI  on  08/03  at  07:48 PM

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/01/hookinguprealities/i-married-a-one-night-stand/

Do as she says, not as she does, ladies.

Comment #31: MissPrism  on  08/03  at  07:51 PM

Walsh’s website seems targeted at younger women - maybe it’s all some digital therapy attempt to erase some mistakes SHE made in her early 20s/teen years.  You know, by putting up a bunch of hopelessly dated advice, marking the specific and unique circumstances of her early relationships as general trends, and otherwise complaining that other people get to have fun in their relationships.

Comment #32: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  07:52 PM

Do you really want a guy who will eagerly go to a bunch of chick flicks with you?

Yes, I really, really do. On Saturday night, my boyfriend and I watched a chick flick that he suggested. I also watch shoot-em-ups with him, and not because I’m doing it to manipulate him. I guess his eagerness to watch films of a certain genre makes him Not a Real Man that no woman would want, but he’s gotten laid plenty over his lifetime. And he’s pretty proud of me for getting after it myself when I’ve had the chance. (And ps Susan, we’re happy together.)

Comment #33: jenofiniquity  on  08/03  at  07:52 PM

@MikeEss #20 - No, no, no, we’re the ones covered in saliva.

Look, I’ve apologised about that.  Your perfume just smelt like bacon, okay?

Comment #34: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/03  at  07:53 PM

Do you really want a guy who will eagerly go to a bunch of chick flicks with you? Wouldn’t you rather accompany him to Transformers from time to time?

See, exactly what I was saying in the other thread. For men, “love” supposedly means “allowing you to be in his vicinity while he watches a movie he enjoys”. Blurgh.

This from the same person whose touts her site as a place where women can “learn helpful strategies for reclaiming the upper hand with boys to get the relationship they want.” Make up your mind, Susan.

Oh, no, see, you’re forgetting that relationships are supposed to be a constant adversarial struggle. He tries to get more sex, she tries to give less sex. He tries to hang on to his money; she tries to spend his money on stupid purses. He tries to retain his freedom and dignity; she tries to force him into emasculating civilized behaviors.

Natch, you don’t want a girly-man with no balls who will give into your evil feminine control without fighting. That would be wrong. It would disrupt the sacred nature of the relationship, which is that you are supposed to pull at opposite ends of a rope your whole lives, deeply resent each other, and this will make you Very Happy.

Comment #35: kristin  on  08/03  at  07:56 PM

Because women are contemptible, and therefore a man is also contemptible if he shows an interest in things women like.

Not just things women like, but if he actually appears to like a woman.  There are some things, like movies, that are activities many of us enjoy most with a companion.  If I’m in a relationship (you know, with someone I actually like spending time with) I may choose to engage in some of those activities even if they’re not my personal favorite.  I’m not going to do something I find loathsome, but go see a movie* she wants to see - why not?

*For example - this can be whatever sort of activity one person actively enjoys and the other doesn’t mind.

Comment #36: libdevil  on  08/03  at  07:56 PM

#34: PiaToR

Actually, it smells like cookies.  My husband defined his wishes about my perfume thusly several years ago:  “Boys don’t like flowers.  Boys like cookies.  Smell like cookies!”  Then he bought me a bottle of Vanilla perfume.

Comment #37: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/03  at  08:08 PM

GGG@37: My favorite perfumes (and the ones Mr Kristin likes best) are pretty musky. Does this mean he likes women who smell like animals?

Comment #38: kristin  on  08/03  at  08:13 PM

More projection than a multiplex.

That’s what I see here.

Comment #39: Karmakin  on  08/03  at  08:16 PM

Well, all the women I’ve met are animals, so it seems like a fairly reasonable smell to like.  Few members of either sex smell like plants or spices naturally, after all.  Though I understand the appeal.

Comment #40: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  08:16 PM

Omigod!

Susan Walsh not only married her One Night Stand, she did all the stuff she warns against in that period: including hooking up with a variety of guys at the same time chosen only for their foreigness: a trip around the world, sexually.

All from the same social circle as her One-Night-Stand, all of whom could have had big mouths and warned Mr. One-Night-Stand that Susan Was a Whore.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/01/hookinguprealities/i-married-a-one-night-stand/

She chased Mr. Hookup Guy, and had another One-Night-Stand with him after her’d ignored her for weeks on end, just ‘cause she thought he was hot (such low-self-esteem you had, Susan, according to middle-aged, finger-wagging Susan.)

And despite breaking every other rule of middle-aged Susan, and basically, having herself a good ole time whilst doing so, Mr. Hook Up married Then Slut Susan.

Also despite the fact that they shared some of the same cultural interests, even tho he was a Man!

Not only is middle-aged Susan a hypocrite, she must be aware she’s dealing out spectacularly bad advice, since Acting Like a Slut is precisely what led her to becoming A Married Woman, that holiest of grails.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2009/06/01/hookinguprealities/i-married-a-one-night-stand/

Comment #41: judybrowni  on  08/03  at  08:20 PM

Wow, Susan’s romantic life is bizarrely at odds with her advice.  I’ve lost all sense of where she’s coming from.

Comment #42: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/03  at  08:24 PM

Kristin #38 Actually, his favorite is a vanilla with musky undertones, or as he calls it, “You smell like sexy cookies!” 

He’s also a cook, so pretty food obsessed to begin with.

Comment #43: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/03  at  08:28 PM

Yow, in the comments to the reveal of her arguing against her own history, Middle Aged Susan still can’t acknowledge that Slut Susan is what got her the husband.

“In a way, my story sounds a little like winning the lottery or something. I got to be the exception, how often does that happen? I hate looking at it that way because it seems like it’s all totally out of your control…”

So, when you think about it, falling in love passionately is the exception, not the rule. Maybe love is the exception.”

Yeah, Susan, that sounds like a plan for the girls Not You: play by The Rules and get guy you don’t love and who doesn’t love you—but hey, you’ll be In Control of a relationship you don’t enjoy.

Comment #44: judybrowni  on  08/03  at  08:36 PM

Wow, Susan’s romantic life is bizarrely at odds with her advice.  I’ve lost all sense of where she’s coming from.

Does she have a brick-and-mortar “counseling” business for which her blog is essentially an advertisement? If so, the answer is that she’s coming from $$-land.

Comment #45: Steve LaBonne  on  08/03  at  08:37 PM

Kristin #38 Actually, his favorite is a vanilla with musky undertones, or as he calls it, “You smell like sexy cookies!”

Tell me, how many times has he seen “American Pie”?  Does he ever act in a suspicious manner when you catch him alone with baked goods?  Have you ever discovered icing on his collar?

Comment #46: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/03  at  08:47 PM

I love that list.  I read the guy one she based it off of, too.  Basically the premise seems to be that if you have any character flaw at all, as both lists pretty much covered every single one of ‘em, you will be single forever.  So by extrapolation, we must assume that only perfect people have boyfriends/girlfriends and therefore if anyone has a boyfriend or a girlfriend, then we know he or she IS perfect.  I am overjoyed to know that not only at many times in my life have I been perfect, I am in fact perfect RIGHT NOW.  ::bliss::

Comment #47: Lisa KS  on  08/03  at  08:48 PM

Who asks for the number? It would be less awkward to ask for a girl’s SAT, college GPA, and an employer’s recommendation*. And how does one tell if she is being truthful? I suppose you just check out the notches in her bedpost. But what if she doesn’t have bedposts?!?
*Though in fairness, I might actually care about this.

Comment #48: John Joel Glanton  on  08/03  at  09:00 PM

I’m gay so not exactly a target of Ms. Walsh’s fingerwagging, but I guess I’ve slept with about 250 different dudes in my sex life and that’s with being a very ordinary looking guy.  I’ve known hotties that had numbers like 3,000.

So does that make us sluts?

Comment #49: Henry Holland  on  08/03  at  09:20 PM

@John Joel Glanton

Well, clearly you shouldn’t date girls without bedposts.  I certainly consider that a mark against - there’s all sorts of uses for those raspberry

Comment #50: Sivi  on  08/03  at  09:45 PM

“I read the guy one she based it off of, too.  Basically the premise seems to be that if you have any character flaw at all, as both lists pretty much covered every single one of ‘em, you will be single forever.”

The guy one I can see some rationale behind; pretty much everything on it is stuff that’s widely considered personality flaws or considerable impediments to dating.  Working on yourself before diving back into the dating pool can help.  The Walsh list really does seem to be more like “Are you a lady?  Then there you go.”.

Comment #51: preying mantis  on  08/03  at  10:13 PM

You know, all this would be so easy to resolve.  Let’s just go back to the way things were when married couples stayed married: a girl was a girl who belonged to her father until her father gave her to her husband.  If something happened to the husband, the woman would revert back to the property of her father.  If he wasn’t available, her brother.  If THAT wasn’t available, then she had a roughly six-month window to find another husband, preferably one who was in the six-month, find-a-wife mode as well.

And if she insisted on staying single and controlling her own property, society could condemn her as a witch.

Hey, it worked for the Puritans.  On the other hand, the Puritans prized the idea that husbands “satisfy” their wives (“Satisfied” women conceive more easily, doncha know?  Large families are a sign of a “good” husband, if you know what I mean.).  Divorces were granted for wives who claimed their men didn’t get the job done.

Comment #52: algebrateacher  on  08/03  at  10:13 PM

Advice to young men who had wasted their youth in riotous living—“Smell thee out a wife a wee bit tainted” Puritan divine William Gage 1535

Comment #53: revrick  on  08/03  at  10:45 PM

Who asks for the number? It would be less awkward to ask for a girl’s SAT, college GPA, and an employer’s recommendation*. And how does one tell if she is being truthful? I suppose you just check out the notches in her bedpost. But what if she doesn’t have bedposts?!?

Who…especially in the US asks these types of questions?!! This sounds like a potted stereotype of what dating may be like in East Asia….but even they don’t go that far in actual practice as questions of that type are usually limited to name of college attended and one’s major. 

The only people I know who ask this of girls/women are dudes who are trying to gauge whether their perceived intelligence as judged by those factors would be overshadowed and thus. their own egos/self-image would be permanently undermined….though instead of “employer’s recommendation”....it is much more likely they’d ask what college she attended/graduated from and degree(s) obtained.

Comment #54: exholt  on  08/03  at  10:52 PM

Laurie at #7: I can safely say from personal experience that for some people dating or even approaching potential dates is an extremely hard thing to do. The last time I tried flirting with a women, a guy punched me in the face. The woman was mortified and berated the guy but I really could have done without the punch to the face, which was rather hard. Than there was the time I flirted with a woman at a bar and when I finally got the courage to ask for a phone number, it turned out she was married and her husband was the bartender.

  Some people have very tragi-comic love lives. I won’t begrudge people there fun but I hate it when they assume that the fun comes easily for everybody. It doesn’t.

Comment #55: Lee  on  08/03  at  11:24 PM

Holy shit, judy, that post you linked to is awful.  The “UGH” vs. “AWWW” lists are unbelievably shallow.

My mom plays a version of this “fucked if you do, fucked if you don’t” game, except with clothes.  Whatever you are wearing my mother will find fault with it - too tight, too loose, too dressy, too casual, not the right colour, too short, too long, heels too high, shoes are flat and dowdy - and will talk about it loudly enough to be embarrassing. 

She doesn’t do this to me, or to people she actually knows.  Only total strangers.  It took me about six weeks after leaving home to realize “Wait, normal people don’t do this?  SWEET!”

Comment #56: KristinMH  on  08/03  at  11:53 PM

@10:  Great example of confirmation bias, actually.  The fact that people would take a finding like “psychopaths, narcissists and other dangerous people are unusually good at manipulating people to have sex with them” and generalizing it to “bad boys get the girls” is monumentally stupid, yet perfectly intelligent people accept it without question. 

People with NPD and psychopathologies are good at manipulating people to give them money, too, but no one ever says “bad boys get the money.”  There are other ways of getting things than manipulating people.

Comment #57: Ape Man  on  08/04  at  12:09 AM

@exholt

I was really just making a joke about socially inept date questions. Though I wouldn’t think a person too horrible for judging a person (at least initially) on college prestige. SATs and recs? Yeah, that would be a bit much…

Comment #58: John Joel Glanton  on  08/04  at  12:16 AM

To join the chorus of those wondering why Susan Walsh still cares about any of this stuff when she’s gotta be pushing 50:

Ick.

Just.  Ick. 

I’m 42 and about the last thing on my to-do list is “obsessively analyze and attempt to micromanage the sex lives of women decades younger than I am”.  WTF??  What a creep.

Comment #59: DonnaDiva  on  08/04  at  12:43 AM

Since I’m seriously socially dysfunctional (Asperger’s has been suggested), I don’t get many dates, so I might not be the best person to suggest this, but it seems to me that the rule is “Don’t spread disease, don’t break hearts, don’t tie down a player, don’t play someone monogamous, have fun.” Seems so sensible, no? Anyway, I’ve come to think of the term “slut” as being largely neutral to positive, though it’s not to be thrown around lightly as not everyone agrees. (“Skank” is still negative, but I’m finding it’s hard to come up with a meaningful definition that distinguishes it from “self-destructive mental case”.)

Henry @49:

The question is not so much whether you are, as whether you should care whether you are or not. (That answer would be no.)

Comment #60: BrianX  on  08/04  at  12:48 AM

Is it just me, or is her whole game a repackaging of typical Christian dating advice for women minus the Jeebus?

Comment #61: jenlillith  on  08/04  at  01:09 AM

@Lee:  I can relate.  I’m in a 3-year dry spell that’s been hard to shake.  I hate large crowds of people I don’t know, and my many male friends are willing to give lip service about how awesome I am but I don’t see them dating me or passing along recommendations.  It sometimes takes a lot of willpower to exert yourself just to get burned again, and when I can take my mind off it I am often pleasantly surprised just how much I enjoy being single.

Comment #62: Kyso K  on  08/04  at  01:14 AM

Is it just me, or is her whole game a repackaging of typical Christian dating advice for women minus the Jeebus? 

Nope, not just you.  Evo Psych is a secular Bible for reactionaries.

Comment #63: DonnaDiva  on  08/04  at  01:25 AM

“People with NPD and psychopathologies are good at manipulating people to give them money, too, but no one ever says ‘bad boys get the money.’ “

Behind every great fortune there is a crime.
—Honore de Balzac, 1841

Try not to giggle at the name “Balzac” like I do.

Comment #64: B405  on  08/04  at  01:30 AM

Funny how advice to the lovelorn is the same for both genders yet not quite the same.
“Why oh why am I alone?” the advice-giver mouths, speaking for his or her imagined readers.
To men (via PUA channels): “Because women suck.  Here’s how you can scam them.”
To women (Walsh is only the latest of many): “Because women suck.  Focus on your suckiness and resolve to change.”
Though I must say Walsh adds a fresh twist, as others note, by having done exactly the opposite of what she advises AND crowing about how perfectly it worked out.

Comment #65: Unree  on  08/04  at  01:37 AM

“Also, women who crack jokes never have boyfriends, because jokes put your oxytocin levels at the level where no man can be snagged.  It’s science, people.  I peer-reviewed it, i.e. showed it to some misogynist blog commenters and they liked it.”

I’m so glad I wasn’t drinking water when I read this or it would have come out my nose I was laughing so hard. I really needed that after being called a “river troll” and feminist “under-boss” by her followers today. 

You rock my world, Amanda.

Comment #66: Leahbee  on  08/04  at  01:38 AM

Everything food related gets a love of love from the Paris Metbloggers, and we have a decent collection of cookbooks between us.
ugg boots kaufen
links of london accessories
classic cardy boots
gucci watches

Comment #67: q1111  on  08/04  at  04:20 AM

You know, I would not really want a man who would sit through chick flicks - because I HATE CHICK FLICKS. (I would not really care if he watched them on his own time, but he’d better not expect me to sit through Sleepless in Seattle or Titanic if he didn’t want me throwing something through the TV screen.) On the other hand, I saw both Transformers films at midnight screenings although they are clearly not as good as Transformers: Animated or Beast Wars.

I’m guessing ‘don’t be geeky!’ would also be on Susan’s list if she had noticed that lady geeks exist, and yet somehow I have no trouble finding men who want to spend time with me and my encyclopaedic knowledge of RPGs and Doctor Who.

Comment #68: AnneS  on  08/04  at  04:49 AM

#2 and #3 on the list work together as a neat tautology.  If you date an assertive, macho guy and it doesn’t work out, it’s your fault for falling for “bad boys.”  If you date a shy, sensitive guy and it doesn’t work out, it’s your fault for picking dickless wimps.  Either way, accepting a date from a guy reflects something fundamentally wrong with you.  But if you ever turn a guy down, you’re too picky or a “princess,” plus that guy was probably the one acceptable man in the universe.

Count me among the people who do indeed want to be with a guy who can enjoy, or at least tolerate, the occasional girly activity.  I’m not the chick-flick type*, but neither do I have any patience for the double standard where women are supposed to be good sports about appreciating “guy stuff” while men are expected to throw giant hissy fits and break out in hives over the mere possibility of exposure to “girl stuff.”  Don’t get me started on Walsh trying to convince me that pretending to enjoy something my man likes is way more fun than actually enjoying something I like.


*This, to me, is the definition of love: at the movies, my husband skipped “Iron Man 2” so we could watch my pick, a documentary on the making of “Troll 2.”  Rest assured we did eventually see “Iron Man 2.”

Comment #69: Shaenon  on  08/04  at  05:31 AM

Perhaps I’m being charitable here but after looking at both lists, what I took away is: well-rounded people find it easier to settle down. Perhaps dating a ‘bad boy’ or a ‘nice guy’ will work but if you keep seeing people who fit into this category and it’s not working out for recurring reasons, maybe these guys aren’t right for you. I’m not sure the article was meant to be read as a catch-all guide for everyone, more as a list of maybes.

You’re right about the contradictions though, that was a laugh.

Comment #70: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  08/04  at  06:14 AM

Any person you’re considering dating who asks how many people you’ve slept with should immediately be on total probation, and the only answer s/he should get is “Why do you ask?” 

In my opinion, the only reason someone would ask you that is to judge/slut-shame you.

Comment #71: Rumblelizard  on  08/04  at  07:17 AM

Kyso K at 69: I do horribly at places where people are supposed to meet people like bars.

Comment #72: Lee  on  08/04  at  07:34 AM

RE: Susan Walsh and her horrible commenters
Savannah Ancestry

Also, I don’t know if anyone looked at this, Six Things that Make a Woman Bad in Bed, but I had the misfortune of doing so.  Not only does it have the incredibly useful advice of not texting or taking phone calls during the act, but she also claims (correctly, I guess…) that men don’t like women that are passive.  Her definition of not being passive is basically any movement at all, but even so, some guy comes in not liking that: “Seems to me if she can bounce around he’s not taking much control.”

Honestly (as has already been said a lot), if men like that think she’s got dating and relationships all figured out, why on earth would any woman want to win that prize?

Comment #73: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/04  at  08:00 AM

Can I just say, the next person to self-diagnose as Asperger’s because they’re shy/socially awkward is going to get SUCH a dose of whoop-ass.

This promiscuous flinging around of the Autism label for anyone who is a little off the centre of bland, plastic, formulaic “social skills” stereotypes severely itches my butt, people. There is nothing wrong with you if you’re not as extrovert and people-oriented as reality show contestants, OK? Being an actual person with actual PERSONAL preferences in social interaction is not a disease!

It’s like this Susan Walsh article, but a bajollion times worse: if your life doesn’t confirm to some imagined “standard” (that you’re supposed to want for mysterious but universal and unassailable reasons), not only are you DOING somethign (everything) wrong, there is something actually wrong WITH YOU. Gah.

Comment #74: MarinaS  on  08/04  at  08:02 AM

Just logged on to say that ‘feminazi hellbeast bent on revenge’ needs to be a t-shirt.

Comment #75: Skreeboop  on  08/04  at  08:35 AM

TheLady: Word.

If I had to write a “why you’re still single/why you can’t keep a relationship” article, it would sound a little more like “examine yourself carefully and figure out what’s important to you, and then find someone who meets that criteria, understanding that those same criteria will be important to them, too, and disregard everything else. So for example, if you really want someone who’s totally hot, you’re probably going to have to be totally hot yourself in order to land said hottie. But if you want someone who’s funny and nice, maybe you should consider giving the balding guy who’s a little on the short side a chance. Furthermore, be prepared, if you’re spending more time valuing the physical stuff (looks, fashion, money) that you’re probably not going to find someone who’s not particularly invested in the deep sensitive stuff. Which is fine, if you don’t want that either.”

Comment #76: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/04  at  09:30 AM

Smell like cookies!

This, and the short thread of posts following it, had me giggling to start my morning.  Thanks very much for sharing and getting my day off to an amused start.

Comment #77: libdevil  on  08/04  at  09:40 AM

The reason I don’t have a boyfriend is because I just dumped the last one for using me as his emotional dumping ground for the last two months. Now that we’re broken up he still does it, and at the same time begs me to come back.
Wonder where that puts me on her ridiculous list?
It’s quite impressive how she manages to contradict herself all the time.

Also, no-one has asked me how many people I’ve slept with in ages, and I’m only 21. As far as I’m concerned, it’s no-one’s business but my own.

Comment #78: Froufrou  on  08/04  at  09:41 AM

She has a lot of asshole male commenters on that site, which remarkably, force her towards arguing the (relatively) feminist position - notably to a guy who describes women wanting orgasms as ‘gynocentricity’.  Why are they her site in the first place?  The link in #73’s post is really a depressing comment thread.

Comment #79: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/04  at  10:01 AM

Gnyocentricity?  What the hell does that mean? 

Oh he sounds very attractive.  I may go over there and set my cap for him.  No, no ladies - I saw him first!

Comment #80: JennyLI  on  08/04  at  10:15 AM

Wow.  20 reasons women don’t have boyfriends and not once does the possibility that maybe they haven’t met a guy with whom the attraction is mutual and strong enough to set up the level of commitment called “boyfriend/girlfriend” enter into it.

Occam’s Razor, people.  Use it for a closer shave.

Comment #81: DBK  on  08/04  at  10:21 AM

My head is spinning from all the back and forth in her “logic”. Will you please deconstruct more of her articles? Your take on her b-s is the biggest laugh I’ve had in weeks. I wish you were over my shoulder reading womens magazines every time I get my hair done so I could laugh some more.

Comment #82: DC Fem  on  08/04  at  10:30 AM

Google is running ads for “Free Christian Dating” here.  They might need to tweak their filters a little bit before advertising religious monogamy to a website whose posts go up with the verb “blaspheme”

Comment #83: Loch Ness Monster  on  08/04  at  10:34 AM

There’s only one reason why I don’t have a boyfriend: I don’t want one.  I’m hetero and love sex with men, but I just don’t want a boyfriend at this point in my life, especially after reading lists like this that make it seem like such a horrible fate.  I read stuff like this in teen magaines when I was in high school and I decided that if this is what it takes to snag a boyfriend, I’d rather not have one.  Yes, I now realize that most men really aren’t so stupid that they’ll run away when they find out about my sexual history, but ironically I think lists like this actually played a small part in my decision to have casual sex in the first place.  If I have to choose between having a dull, judgmental boyfriend and having lots of casual sex with several different guys, I’ll always choose the more sex option.

Comment #84: bananacat  on  08/04  at  10:51 AM

What does she say to someone who’s been turned down because her (perceived) number is too LOW? Because I’m living proof that that happens.

Also, what DBK said. Though as I meet more people, I find that there really is a type of person who can fall in love with just about anyone…so there’s only half of the “mutual” part to worry about. There’s also the type of person who never really feels any strong feelings for ANYone, and therefore regards dating as merely ticking off tolerability boxes.

I think this type of person must be the type that writes these idiotic articles.

Comment #85: Well, what?  on  08/04  at  11:34 AM

Walsh is a jerk trying to convince women that they don’t have boyfriends, assuming they want them, because there is something wrong with them as women.

Comment #86: DBK  on  08/04  at  12:10 PM

not once does the possibility that maybe they haven’t met a guy with whom the attraction is mutual and strong enough to set up the level of commitment called “boyfriend/girlfriend” enter into it.

No—clearly women who don’t have boyfriends failed to walk the tightrope between complementary errors. The “happy medium” is a knife-edge that will slice you to ribbons.

Amanda did not point out the phoniness of the nice guy/player dichotomy, which from other than the NiceGuy (TM) point of view is the difference between the clueless guy who hopes mere proximity to an incomprehensible female creature will lead to a place to sheathe his penis, and the guy who can actually speak to women and treat them as fellow human beings.

Comment #87: Hector B.  on  08/04  at  12:21 PM

You’re a princess. You want a man who will proclaim to the world that he is whipped as butter. He will worship the very ground you walk on. Trouble is, the only men who will happily inhabit a one-down position in a relationship have no balls. Do you really want a guy who will eagerly go to a bunch of chick flicks with you? Wouldn’t you rather accompany him to Transformers from time to time?

This… makes no goddamn sense. Any of it. The words are syntactically correct but the sentences are semantically meaningless.

As nearly as I can translate it, she’s saying, “You’re a woman who wants to be dominant in a relationship. You want a man who will declare to the world that you dominate him. He will worship you. The trouble is that any man who lets a woman dominate him is emasculated, weak, impotent, unattractive, and uninteresting. Do you really want a man who shares your hobbies or at least enjoys your company enough to enjoy them with you? Wouldn’t you rather have a guy who belittles anything you do that’s stereotypically feminine because girls have cooties, who demands that you participate in his hobbies instead?”

Um… if you like to be dominant in relationships, why would you want a man who belittles your hobbies and insists that if *he* is not dominant in everything you have cut off his penis? This seems to be suggesting that *no* woman could possibly enjoy a relationship with a man she dominates, because any man who would actually take orders or even suggestions from a woman or even enjoy “feminine” activities with her is a worthless hunk of turd that no woman could possibly want; therefore, ladies, even if you think you’d enjoy being dominant in a relationship, you really wouldn’t be, because only worthless, useless, pathetic worms pretending to be men would actually *let* you be dominant, and really you’d be much happier with some guy who treats you like you have cooties unless you cooperate with everything *he* wants.

Now, I am a geek. I have never seen a chick flick in my life (although I would happily skim through one on fast forward if I found out that John de Lancie had a five minute scene in it someplace.) If nothing is blowing up, odds are, it’s not the movie for me. And I did actually see Transformers. But it is actually a source of pain to me, and I feel like I was sold a bill of goods, that when I met my husband he liked fan fiction, and part of the reason I *met* him was bonding over fan fiction, and he even read *my* fan fiction, and now he won’t read it and he nags me to stop writing it so I can write professionally publishable work. (To be fair, he nags me because he knows I *want* to write professionally publishable work and writing fanfic gets in the way; but it just means I don’t talk to him about my fanfic anymore, and since that’s like 90% of my life outside work, kids and household, that really hurts.) And as geeks, we share *many* hobbies… but the one I do that’s most important to me is also the most stereotypically female, and the one he’s least interested in, and damn, that does hurt. I can’t imagine living life with a man who wasn’t interested in *any* of my hobbies.

Men being publicly misogynist toward the women they privately claim to love because only by a public display of dominance and disdain for women can they maintain their manly status *disgust* me, and if those were the only kind of men available, and I was too afraid of uncloseting myself to take up with a woman, I’d be celibate. Love is not worth being belittled and disrespected. I can’t even imagine why anyone would think for a minute that it could be.

If the man who supposedly loves you won’t participate in *any* of your hobbies, he doesn’t love you. If the man who supposedly loves you isn’t willing to let you take charge in public, he doesn’t love you. Any man who loves his status as a Manly Dominant Man more than he wants to make you feel happy and loved and accepted and respected does not love you. And why would you *ever* want to be in a relationship with a man who doesn’t love you *and* doesn’t respect you? I mean, a friend with benefits who likes you but he couldn’t say it’s actually love, sure, as long as he respects you, but a man who doesn’t *respect* you can only do you harm… why would you want to be in the same room as one, let alone have sex with him?

Comment #88: Alara J Rogers  on  08/04  at  01:18 PM

Alara, when my wife and I began dating, she liked opera and I had no interest in it, but I took her to an opera because she liked it and I thought she would enjoy that and I would try to take an interest.

La Boheme.  Very nice traveling company production in Red Bank, NJ at the Count Basie Theater.

I loved it.  After we married, we used to go to four operas a year at the Met.  Don’t anymore (moved to the midwest).  I miss the Met.

Comment #89: DBK  on  08/04  at  03:01 PM

I think the crucial line is this one; “I hate looking at it that way because it seems like it’s all totally out of your control…”

No, it’s not totally out of your control. Just mostly. And a good thing too. I’m thinking about the women I dated with serious planning and malice aforethought, you know, the ones who on paper looked like we would be just right together. Nuh-uh. The ones who were more like “what the hey, this could be interesting” worked out much better.

Comment #90: paul  on  08/04  at  03:49 PM

At last, a troll! You’re so slow on the uptake it’s almost charming, except that it isn’t.

Comment #91: Well, what?  on  08/04  at  04:37 PM

OTOH, KWI is a karate champion, skeet-shooting marksman, and the manly kind of man that many women wish for in a boyfriend.

Comment #92: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/04  at  04:39 PM

OTOH, KWI is a karate champion, skeet-shooting marksman, and the manly kind of man that many women wish for in a boyfriend.

Yeah, but he can’t get a girlfriend because he’s a nice guy and the gals all go for jerks instead of him.

Comment #93: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/04  at  04:42 PM

Girls only like guys who have good SKILLS. You know, nunchaku skills, bow-hunting skills…Luckyyyyy.

Comment #94: Well, what?  on  08/04  at  04:45 PM

@King Water Ice

I am not sure that I would look to Susan Walsh for “higher.”  Her husband can’t be all that great if at 25 years, she doesn’t know what happens to a penis after sex.  (Sorry everyone, I spent way too much time reading comments over there.)

Luckily, one of the “nice” men on the blog found her a Wikipedia article.

Sadly, there is only one of you, so I guess the rest of us will have to make do. ::sad, pouty, appropriately feminine sad face::

Comment #95: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/04  at  05:08 PM

At least he seems to ascribe the same bizarre marketplace mentality to men as he does to women.  It’s not about how happy you are with the person - remember, the envy of others is like currency in heaven!

Comment #96: Gavel Down  on  08/04  at  05:11 PM

“Not exactly the kind of guy that will make other women green with envy”

Okay, going with the catty hivemind stereotype you’re painting here, isn’t the type of man that makes other women envious the kind of man that they’ll constantly attempt to steal? Isn’t attachment to a not-so-flashy model* conducive to a longer term, monogamous relationship, the end goal of every psychologically healthy women?


*Not referencing the men mentioned - don’t know much about them - as much as I am KWI’s characterization of their “type”

Comment #97: Selena777  on  08/04  at  05:32 PM

Very clearly delineated, AM.

So, do you suppose she methodically maps BOTH sides of concept, and then simply writes two opposing suggestions?  It’s a technique, I guess.  If you have no actual ideas.

Comment #98: Eric_RoM  on  08/04  at  06:08 PM

“Who asks for the number?”
If I remember right, Hugh Grant in Four Weddings and a Funeral. And when Andie MacDowell replied with 32 (?), he got penis insecurity and thought he was a loser at a measly 8 and that because he had less experience than her he’d forever be unable to satisfy her sexually. I don’t remember if revenge slut-shaming followed the number because I watched it before I started menstruating, though.
Or, a friend of mine. He asked his girlfriend just for idle curiosity, and she replied something above Andie MacDowell’s number, and he said “Woah, you rock. I’m so lucky I love someone who’s not afraid of sex.”

#4: “loose women”?
*spocks*

Comment #99: colorlessblue  on  08/04  at  07:18 PM

Dear Susan Walsh:

I do not think that every woman wants a life partner, or that every woman who wants a life partner wants a life partner who is a man.

However, I am happily married (for ten years now) to a man who does not give one metric rat’s ass that my “number” is over 100, while his is 5.

And in case you missed Joanna Trollope’s flapping her jaws about how women are too picky, she chastises women for having “this absurd Vera Wang shopping list which says of a man that he has to earn £100,000 a year, that he has to be able to cut down a tree, play the Spanish guitar, make love all night and cook me a cheese souffle.”

My husband can and does do all of those things (except he plays the acoustic pop guitar, not flamenco).  Of course I can and do do all those things too, except I play woodwinds, not the guitar.

So amazingly enough, I have what all the anti-feminist scolds tell me is the Holy Grail—a loving, supportive, handsome, sexy, fun, brilliant, professionally successful, talented husband—despite NOT LISTENING TO ANY OF THEIR FUCKING STUPID ADVICE ABOUT HOW I NEED TO BE LESS FEMINIST TO FIND SUCH A MAN.

In other words, people who are looking for male partners, be yourself and if you’re lucky you will find someone awesome who loves you for yourself.  Don’t listen to the slut-shaming, anti-feminist scolds.

No love,

JupiterPluvius

Comment #100: JupiterPluvius  on  08/04  at  08:45 PM

I’m 27, and I’ve been in a relationship for 4 years, but before that I don’t ever recall anyone asking me my number. I don’t even KNOW my number, frankly. I think the only time I know of anyone asking me how many people I slept with was my boyfriend when I was 17… and I only knew the answer because it was 0. And sometimes girl friends in a conversational sort of way, like when one was trying to write out a list of everyone she had fooled around with. Seems most of us don’t really know our number anymore.

Also, I think my number has been higher than every single guy I’ve ever been with, except my first bf, because we were both virgins. The last two boyfriends I’ve had had a number of 0 until me. (I guess I’m attracted to shy guys).

Comment #101: slingshot  on  08/04  at  09:17 PM

The phoenician wrote:

Look, I’ve apologised about that.  Your perfume just smelt like bacon, okay?

Well, who wouldn’t want a girl like that?

Comment #102: Dana  on  08/04  at  09:34 PM

I just want to know which perfume, exactly, smells like sexy cookies.

Comment #103: Cornpone Down Under  on  08/05  at  01:37 AM

Wouldn’t you rather accompany him to Transformers from time to time?

If you’re dating a guy who liked the Transformers movies, then maybe you should be considering all the opportunities a single life has to offer you.  I mean, yeach.

I am not sure that I would look to Susan Walsh for “higher.” Her husband can’t be all that great if at 25 years, she doesn’t know what happens to a penis after sex.

Wait, what?!  Don’t just leave that hanging there, and don’t make me look at the comments myself!  Please be kind and expand on that.

Comment #104: Kyso K  on  08/05  at  10:36 AM

In my opinion, the only reason someone would ask you that is to judge/slut-shame you.”

I’ve asked, but for reasons more along these lines:

He asked his girlfriend just for idle curiosity, and she replied something above Andie MacDowell’s number, and he said “Woah, you rock. I’m so lucky I love someone who’s not afraid of sex.”

AND, I would like to hear stories. With details. Pictures, if she’s got ‘em.

But, to be a bit more serious, how exactly does one arrive at a number? Now we’re into “what is sex?” category. My girlfriend is bi. Do we not count all the women she had sex with (by her definition)? ‘Cause, you know ... stories!

Comment #105: Vir Modestus  on  08/05  at  02:59 PM

@104

Basically, she was going on and on about oxytocin and bonding, etc. Someone pointed out that oxytocin, among other things, may be responsible for the fact that men have “downtime” between orgasms, which wouldn’t do much to promote “bonding” with women who typically suffer from no such inconvenience.

Her response was that she had never heard that penises did this.  A male commenter, who appeared to be a regular, confirmed that it was true and sent her here.  She didn’t have anything on the topic after that.

Now, she is married and has a child, so I am sure that she has, in fact, seen a penis.  I just pictured her husband as the male version of a woman who would never let ANYONE see her without her makeup on (husband included).  Not attractive to me, but then, I have a partner who probably would also fail to satisfy our troll.

Comment #106: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/05  at  04:12 PM

#103 - Hellcat by Black Phoenix Alchemy Lab.  Totally smells like sexy cookies.

Comment #107: GeekGirlsRule  on  08/05  at  06:36 PM

I know it’s not really related but I already was ranting about oxytocin on the previous comments page, which is sorta quiet. So here’s this boatload of quotes about the hormone which Susan Walsh thinks is the bees’ knees.
http://www.scarleteen.com/blog/heather_corinna/2010/08/04/pump_up_the_voleume_talking_oxytocin

Looking at that list up there of situations in which oxytocin can purportedly rear it’s oxytociny head, let’s apply the same kind of logic some do with statements about sex and oxytocin to some of these other situations. Let’s also use the same broad brush and total certainty in making them.

If we did, we might say things like:

  * Mothers who deliver by C-section or who do not breastfeed will not be able to bond to their children.
  * Post-menopausal women have a decreasing ability to bond with other people. (Grannies are gonna love that one.)
  * Massage therapists can’t pair-bond because they touch too many people.
  * Mothers who deliver or breastfeed more than one child will be less and less able to bond to subsequent children.
  * Because birth apparently creates the biggest oxytocin surges we know of, women may bond with anyone involved in their birth. Good news for obstetricians!
  * People who have and care for pets will be less able to bond with other pets or people.
  * People who sing in choirs or bands may as well be having orgies for all the oxytocin they’re hurling around.
  * People with autism may not be able to bond to anyone, ever.

Comment #108: artiofab  on  08/05  at  07:00 PM

Mothers who deliver by C-section or who do not breastfeed will not be able to bond to their children.

I’ve heard this one said in dead seriousness on a sort-of-feminist blog. It was part of some granola-y diatribe against any medical care being provided during pregnancy and labor (“Western medicine has done nothing for pregnant women and babies!”) that rapidly took a turn for the particularly fucking ridiculous. Ugh. (That’s why I love Pandagon—it’s feminist and rational.)

Comment #109: Bagelsan  on  08/05  at  08:34 PM

@108:

There’s some evidence (study is linked on Wikipedia) that oxytocin actually inspires a host of negative emotions like envy and schadenfreude.

I don’t know where there is a study for it (because I heard it from someone I trust), but oxytocin may also be a reaction to losing.  (Maybe this is why women, at least according to people like Walsh, have more of it after heterosexual—it’s always heterosexual, of course—sex. /sex-hating straw feminist)

Comment #110: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/05  at  09:39 PM

There’s some evidence (study is linked on Wikipedia) that oxytocin actually inspires a host of negative emotions like envy and schadenfreude.

Schadenfreude isn’t a negative emotion.  At least not when I’m feeling it…

Comment #111: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/05  at  11:04 PM

Woot! Thanks, GGR!

Comment #112: Cornpone Down Under  on  08/06  at  02:56 AM

@PIATOR

Are you singing the song?  It is only positive if you’re singing the song.

Comment #113: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/06  at  03:02 AM

@106: I went in search of this discussion you mentioned about the refractory period, and I haven’t found it yet, but I found her saying that many of the boys abused by catholic priests were willing participants (because men always want sex, I assume?), and it’s only rape because of statutory rape laws.

Comment #114: colorlessblue  on  08/06  at  06:36 AM

@114: Um..they don’t appear to be threaded anymore, which makes some of the comments seem really out of place and much harder to follow.  They are all chronological now, so you should be able to find it from this (comment page 8?):

Susan Walsh says:
August 4, 2010 at 11:07 am

1. Please link to evidence suggesting that oxyt. promote envy. I’ve never heard that.
2. Also, a link to the origin of the need for the male to “recharge” before a second orgasm.

This was the first response (now on comment page 9, I think):

Vjatcheslav says:
August 4, 2010 at 11:57 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractory_period_(sex)

And as a male, I can attest from first hand that we have a refractory period. Women seem to be much less encumbered by this, by the way.

Hope that helps.

Comment #115: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/06  at  08:10 AM

This was from the Walsh piece on Jaclyn Friedman discussed before the dating advice one here.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/08/02/hookinguprealities/deconstructing-the-sluthood-of-jaclyn-friedman/

Comment #116: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/06  at  08:13 AM

@115: I ended up finding it later, but I’m still boggling that she thinks men are such horny animals that even raped children want sex all the time, even when they don’t know what sex is yet.

Comment #117: colorlessblue  on  08/06  at  01:26 PM

@117 Part of me thinks that every blogger, if they have an “About Me” or an “About this Blog” page, should list their most-divisive opinions directly on that page. That way, people can immediately read that page and figure out whether the blogger is worth trying to dialogue with.
So, for Susan Walsh, her “About Me” section would mention that she thinks human beings are controlled by hormones, that sluts are real and awful, and it’s mostly okay to rape and molest underage males.

Comment #118: artiofab  on  08/06  at  02:49 PM

@118 And that she believes she knows what she is talking about when it comes to sex, hormones, and feelings despite the fact that she had never heard of the most elementary (and observable) effects of male ejaculation.

Comment #119: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/06  at  06:28 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.