Somewhere in some far away land, I believe there is an argument for a partial ban on abortions (maybe even a universal ban) that doesn’t make you sound like an ignorant rube with mommy issues and a partisan worldview that blinds away common sense.

I hope that one day we’ll get to hear such an argument and that, when we do, it isn’t immediately preceded or followed by a pack of screeching howler monkeys flinging poo.

Kevin Burger’s argument - burdened as it is by his fifty pound woody he hold for Saint Palin and kids - doesn’t seem to fit the bill.  But I encourage him to keep trying, if only because we get to hear more awesome smack downs like the above.

Caren is right. When Ms. F was four months along, we went and had an ultrasound: the technician measured the ratio of the width of the back of the fetus’s neck to its overall length. Apparently DS babies have wider neck-backs or something. At any rate, the tech was right. So there wasn’t genetic testing involved.

I was really hoping they would drag up my favorite anti-science earmark jihad form a few years ago.  Some place in Chicago IIRC, was doing a study on female sexual arousal.  And getting a government grant for it.  It was the perfect storm of wingnut hatred: government money to learn something, pornography for arousal (makes it titiliating to talk about and holier than thou to condemn at the same time!), and the possibility that women can get sexually aroused (myth!).

Caren is right. When Ms. F was four months along, we went and had an ultrasound: the technician measured the ratio of the width of the back of the fetus’s neck to its overall length. Apparently DS babies have wider neck-backs or something. At any rate, the tech was right. So there wasn’t genetic testing involved.

But if markers had been seen, genetic testing would have been recommended. Nobody gives a true Down’s diagnosis without the genetic test—and if Palin knew about it in advance, the amnio or cvs was done.

the National Review published an article claiming that the nation has turned on Sarah Palin because she didn’t have an abortion

So where does that leave people like me who think Palin is a twit for flying across the country and back while 9 months pregnant with a special needs baby?  If she had given birth on that plane, her child would have been in grave danger.

I’ve come to accept that there actually is no floor with regard to how stupid Sarah Palin is, but are more than about 8% of Americans going to laugh at the idea of fruit-fly research?

For God’s sake, my entire scientific career consists of two weeks with a biology student in 1992, and I know that fruit flies are basically the Dry-Erase board of genetics.

This is totally confusing to me. My neighbor, who has a Palinesque mind set, refused to do an amnio because she knew she wouldn’t abort no matter how bad the result. I can’t understand why someone who’s against abortion in all cases would put their fetus at a small but pointless risk by doing the test. Wouldn’t she be more “heroic” if she refused the amnio? If you refuse the benefits of modern medicine, why assume the risks?

I work in Early Childhood Intervention (services for kids under 3 with disabilities) and thank you P.A.T. we’ve been having this discussion in our office for weeks.  No OB/GYN’s I know would have approved that flight and they would never have agreed to flying back with her water broken and her FIFTH child. As for the testing she probably had a quad screen blood test which came out high and then she was likely sent for a high level ultrasound.  I still don’t know why she would go to all that trouble if there was no way she would abort.  Maybe that’s why she hasn’t released her medical records.

So where does that leave people like me who think Palin is a twit for flying across the country and back while 9 months pregnant with a special needs baby?  If she had given birth on that plane, her child would have been in grave danger.

My colleague things that Palin was intentionally reckless around Trig’s birth in order to increase the possibility that he wouldn’t survive.  She called it an Irish Abortion.

I still don’t know why she would go to all that trouble if there was no way she would abort.  Maybe that’s why she hasn’t released her medical records.

Because she was over 35, and all that trouble is considered basic pre-natal care at that point?

I was 30, and I had to deal with my OB giving me grief for turning down the quad screen, and I still suspect that they reported abnormalities on my basic ultrasound and ordered a level II simply because I turned down the quad screen.

I have friends over the age of 35 who had recently had babies, and cvs, the quad screen, and an automatic level II were presented to them as required tests, not optional tests.

Down Syndrome isn’t a genetic disorder. But the general point is a good one.

I saw both the post-abortion syndrome article and the fruit flies. Can’t say which pisses me off more.

Seriously, I can’t imagine that Palin stayed awake in high school biology or ever went to a science fair or could tell you what a Punnett’s Square is. She and McCain are so….science-adverse that it’s not funny.

Required is kind of a strong word, though, I mean what would they have done if she refused? Not delivered the baby? I would imagine they’d give her grief, but that is also protection for themselves in cases of wrongful birth suits. They wouldn’t want her to turn around and say that she wasn’t really told that her child would have Downs, especially as noted, the skin folds test only represents a possibility, not a definite diagnosis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/19/60minutes/main559472.shtml

oh right! a chromosomal disorder is different from a genetic one. probably still has something to do with genetics though…tendencies for meiosis to fuck up and such. Downs Syndrome is trisomy 21, in case people didn’t know.

Ajay,

Down’s Syndrome is indeed a genetic disorder.  It results from three copies of Chromosome 21 being present, rather than the normal two.

Amancay: I used the same argument anytime someone brings up Palin as a pro-choice hero. Apparently, the fact that I’m having a (currently, and hopefully temporarily; I’m a recurrent miscarrier, so come 2nd trimester I should be safe) high risk pregnancy and would never get an amnio because I wouldn’t terminate over something that was compatible with life (and you can see things like lack of brain on an ultrasound) means nothing because I’m an evil pro-choicer.

The ideas they have about us are totally insane. A friend of mine was shocked, shocked i tell you when I told her I wouldn’t force my hypothetical pregnant teenage daughter to abort. Now, she’d disown hers, but my response would be “Well, what do you want to do?”  And I’m the evil one.

Also, if the pro-lifers are so damn concerned about “post-abortive syndrome” why do they never once mention the real mental anguish a woman goes through after miscarriage, stillbirth, or medically necessary termination of a wanted pregnancy?

Never understood that one.

Tenya,

I’m guessing that by required they presented the test as “ok, so you’ll get this done on x date, and that done on y date” not “would you like to have this done?”

I have my 8 week prenatal appointment on Thursday and I strongly suspect I get to spend a bunch of it refusing tests. And I’m 24. No needles in the stomach for me, thank you very much.

...Palin wouldn’t have found out that her baby was going to be born with Down’s syndrome, and then wouldn’t have had the choice to consider abortion, and then wouldn’t have been able to carry on and secure her status as an anti-choice martyr.

It’s funny, when you really look at it, just how little respect a lot of wingers have for the lives of people with disabilities.

A lot of them seem to believe, after all, that Palin’s decision not to abort makes her so unique and so heroic that - damn it, and by gum! - she deserves to be Vice President based on the strength of her character alone.

“Also, if the pro-lifers are so damn concerned about “post-abortive syndrome” why do they never once mention the real mental anguish a woman goes through after miscarriage, stillbirth, or medically necessary termination of a wanted pregnancy?”

Because they’re assholes?

I can’t understand why someone who’s against abortion in all cases would put their fetus at a small but pointless risk by doing the test.

I believe there are a bunch of attendant complications of Down Syndrome that make it a good idea to know ahead of time even if you do intend to carry to term, because you can have the equipment on hand and your doctor prepared to look for the signs of those complications right away.

I’ve also heard that there are a lot of early and possibly even pre-natal interventions that can reduce the risk of those complications. So there are plenty of reasons why you might want to know.

Thanks Caren. The thing is, I’m currently being treated as a high-risk pregnancy. I’ve had 3 beta HCGs, one progesterone, an ultrasound (measured on target and had a heartbeat!), a prenatal appt. and I’m going in for my 2nd ultrasound and prenatal on Thursday. All in the past 3 weeks (8 weeks today). Hopefully it scales back after this week and everything’s still fine. I’m betting because of my history they’ll want me to do the amnio, and needle in the belly ow! not gonna happen.

Luckily, my OB is very natural birth friendly, so I’m not too worried about that.

Back on topic, totally not buying Palin’s flying around after her water broke. Considering I know women who went from inactive labor to crossing her legs to keep the baby in in, seriously, less than 2 hours, no sane woman would risk something like that.

I don’t see the flying-after-your-water-broke thing as intending to harm the baby.  I think it’s more of a control-freak worldview that says, “I’m competent and in charge and I’ve had 4 healthy kids, so I know what I’m doing and I’ll stick to my plan and nothing bad will happen.”  Magical thinking at its finest - just what I want in a national leader.

Or, well, I guess, “I’m doing God’s will, so he’ll take care of me and my kid.”  Same basic idea, either way.

Why does Sarah Palin hate farmers? Aren’t farmers the backbone of the Real America? (TM)

From UCDavis.edu: The rapid invasion of California by the olive fruit fly poses a severe economic threat for the state’s commercial olive growers. The olive fruit fly is considered the most devastating insect pest of olives in the Mediterranean region, where it has occurred for over 2000 years. The larvae (maggots) of the olive fruit fly feed inside the fruit, destroying the pulp and allowing the entry of secondary bacteria and fungi that rot the fruit and impair quality or flavor of the oil. Feeding damage can cause premature fruit drop and reduce fruit quality for both table olive and olive oil production. Large numbers of rotting fruit on the ground can create an unwelcome mess, especially in landscape and backyard trees.

In areas of the world where the olive fruit fly is well established, it has been responsible for losses of 100% of some table cultivars and up to 80% of oil value. For table olive growers, the presence of even a few infested fruit can lead to rejection of an entire crop. Some infestation can be tolerated in olive fruit used for oil production as long as the fruit are not rotten.

I still think it’s her daughter’s baby.  And medical records WOULD reveal that—unless they were completely fabricated.

So, yes, I believe that her daughter is pregnant with her second child now.

Devil’s, it really is appalling how disrespectful this whole thing is.  This whole election has really shown how wingnuts think disabled people are political props for anti-choice guilt trips and apparently nothing more.

I think it’s more that wingnuts think of disabled people as guilt trips, period, because they themselves think so seldom of them or how they exist in day to day life.

Wingnuts and Science - bad combination.

Go to:  www.buttheadpolice.com

and Vote your favourite winger - Palin, Dubya, McCain - to get an ass stamped on their head.  Spread the word!!!

wakeupUSA, we only get to pick one?  Awwww…

Women can’t crank out babies like that, even very young ones.

“Irish twins” and “Vatican twins” are slang terms for siblings who are not actually twins, but rather, were born less than 12 months apart [2] – possibly in the same calendar year and/or school year. It refers to the perception that Irish Catholic families have many children, often with little time between births. It is sometimes considered derogatory. Similarly, “Irish triplets” refers to three siblings born in two years.

My great-grandmother had two daughters as Irish twins, and I’ve known of families that had several sets of siblings who were IT.

So where does that leave people like me who think Palin is a twit for flying across the country and back while 9 months pregnant with a special needs baby?

She may not have, you know.

Down’s Syndrome is indeed a genetic disorder.  It results from three copies of Chromosome 21 being present, rather than the normal two.

If what I remember from genetics is right, I think others were right to have made the distinction - generally “genetic disorder” refers to illnesses that are caused by specific alleles of genes, and are therefore heritable (along the traditional Mendelian or sex-linked patterns), as opposed to chromosomal abnormalities arising from meiosis like trisomy 21, which typically cannot be inherited. So, by those definitions, Down’s syndrome is not a genetic disorder, it’s a chromosomal disorder.

Similarly, the test for Down’s is not strictly a genetic test - that is, determining the presence or absence of a certain allele at a given gene - but rather sampling amniotic fluid for abnormal hormone levels.

She’s not that drunk and not that dumb.

Not <u>now</u>.

“I’m beginning to wonder if a lot of the people who love that theory just want to believe women quit fucking at 40.”

In this case, given the furor over Palin’s hotness, probably not that many.  I think it’s more a combination of her actions being so reckless and otherwise inexplicable—even if you exclude danger to the baby, it was hardly a safe thing for her personally to have done—and the relatively common past phenomenon of underaged, single mothers’ babies being passed off as their siblings and raised by the grandmother.  It does present an alternative that doesn’t raise the rather grim specter of a woman courting a stillbirth or neonatal death in order to avoid raising a child she doesn’t want without having to admit that abortion isn’t just the domain of evil sluts.

Avenger, my sons’ godfather is an Irish Triplet ... his brother is 10 months older, his sister 11 months younger.

That said, Trig was born in May and Bristol’s child is due to arrive in December/January, while Trig Palin was born in late April.

If Bristol was Trig’s mother, she could not have gotten pregnant before about mid-May.  My son conceived in mid-May was born in Mid-February.  There just aren’t enough months there.

Yes, it’s clear to me that we simply don’t deserve to breathe the same air as Sarah Palin, which is why I for one will be happy about her imminent departure from the national stage.

Ms. Kate, how do we know that Bristol’s baby will be born in December or January?  I think if the birth happens then, and the child is big enough to be full-term, we’ll have reason to think the Daily Kos rumor was a lie.  Until then, given Palin’s refusal to share medical records, no birth certificate disclosed, late announcement of the pregnancy, Bristol’s long absence from high school, the weird story about flying out of Texas leaking amniotic fluid and so on, I’m neutral on who gave birth to Trig.

Irish abortion?  Nice. Does he call coat hangar, back alley abortions “Jew abortions” because they save money?

Tell your acquainbtance he/she is a bigot.

Again, Unree, this is our business?  How?

Sarah Palin has made her reproductive proclivities part of her case for John McCain. She’s made her “honesty” part of her case for John McCain. She’s certainly made skepticism and inquiry about private family matters a part of her own campaigns.

I don’t see that it’s off-limits. I wouldn’t think any less of her for adopting another person’s child - concluding, perhaps, that her teenage daughter was unequipped to parent a special-needs child -  but she’s chosen to run for the second-highest office in the land. How much privacy is she really entitled to? Almost none, as far as I can tell.

OK, just some “too many mystery book reading” connect the dots speculation here:

1) photos of Palin “not showing” at seven months - although she sure did with previous pregnancies

2) Bristol off school for months (I’ve had mono - 5 weeks, tops)

3) That irresponsible flight back to her “own” (ed) doc in AK - with a preterm, high-risk child

4) Baby Trig’s size - uhm that’s one big kid, especially for a supposedly breastfed one, he’d be what 7 month’s now?

Possible explanations
1) Trig’s real birthdate is actually a few months earlier and he is Bristol’s
2) Not Bristol’s but not Palin’s either - she does tend to use her kids as props you know?  If you don’t have one….

Why is it our business?
1) see props above
2) her anti-choice stance is part of her campaign - and something is fishy about her personal  
  story which she touts as supporitng said stance
3) her “working mom/self-made woman pose” (not honest about all the paid and unpaid help she gets)
4) if she was preggers and in labor, that flight shows some real character flaws like:
      - reckless endangerment of child
      - disregard for fellow passengers whose flight would have been made REAL interesting. forced  
      to land, etc.

Further fantasy about how it played out:
(months before Trig’s birth)
Bristol: Mom, Dad, I’m pregnant.

Family aghast, Bristol wants to either abort or marry Levi - NO says family.  Remember, Bristol lived with aunt for quite a while.  She’s forced to have kid and give it to mommy to raise.  With parental attention elsewhere, she manages to get back with Levi, and get pregnant again.  The second pregnancy is a further act of rebellion on Bristol’s part, desperately seeking to get out of the Palin home/control.

Then there’s the Track vandalism speculation.  If true, and they sent kid off to Michigan and military to avoid questions, it speaks about a pattern of coverup of kids out of control -Palin’s “ability to keep a secret” has been touted by friends.

It is again our business because Palin is held up as representative of that feminist ideal that women can do it all and do it all successfully and simultaneously - thus ANY woman can do it, without help.  Yeah, only if the stars align pretty darn well (money, support network, proximity, health, work accomodations, etc).

Bristol off school for months (I’ve had mono - 5 weeks, tops)

Yeah, I don’t know about that. Maybe you had a light case but months-long cases of mono aren’t unheard of. A buddy of mine missed six months of class with mono and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t just an excuse for him to hide a pregnancy.

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