So did this girl, like, beat herself up and carve a B into her own face?

How stupid are these people?

I don’t know…

On one of my favorite dog sites, someone called “Mort” claimed that a black man shaved his legs after he was rendered unconscious.  Mort thinks it was politically motivated.  He’s quite bitter.

(How is he doing, anyway?)

She’s actively campaigning for John McCain.  Alone and at night.  In Pittsburg, Pennsylvania - a Democratic stronghold.

So I doubt this was the only lie she peddled that night.

He’s doing well - going to get a bath today.  I’ll put up some pictures this weekend!

Jesse Taylor on 10/24 at 02:40 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That’s good.  Young dogs like to romp and the healing often takes a lot longer as a result.

Make Pam post pics of her new baby, too.

Wow… it’s gotten so bad that rethugs are terrorizing themselves!

Well, we don’t know the details yet. It’s conceivable that she was attacked and used that as an excuse to make up a story about an Obama influenced mugger. That, frankly, would disgust me even more but its still possible this was a crime of opportunity in another fashion. Maybe she took a bad fall and got bruised badly and an idea occurred to her and she took a nail file to her face.

But yeah, she probably did beat herself up and carve the backwards B into her face. This is really just all very sad. While I see little excuse for her actions and am eager to see her face responsibility for what she’s done, I’m mostly just sorry for her. Sorry that such an awful scheme made sense to her. That this seemed at all acceptable. That’s sad.

Less sad are the McCain water carriers who pushed this story as if it meant anything. That’s just repugnant and vomit inducing. What this woman didn’t isn’t McCain’s fault. But those who rushed to suggest what her fictional attacker did was Obama’s fault, well, their misdeed seems a lot more closely aligned to McCain and is frankly a worse offense. This girl was obviously deeply troubled. Do all those who rushed to use her hoax to bash Obama want to admit the same thing of themselves?

I’d be bitter if I were knee-capped like that, too!  Then they put a satellite dish on his head to intercept transmissions to and from the secret chip implanted under his skin.  Sick!

Ms Kate on 10/24 at 02:43 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It’s that whole “one world government” conspiracy.  It’s always the dogs that suffer…

Check out this post at Men Spew Daily - http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/10/23/mccain-campaign-worker-attacked-and-slashed/

I REALLY wish I knew how to make it so you can see the link in the actual thread.

I want to know EXACTLY what the McSlime campaign was doing to push this “story. That’s the REAL story here.

Don’t worry too much about Ashley Fraud ... I mean, Ashley Todd—the Heritage Foundation or some other wingnut welfare racket probably has a special Liar’s Scholarship waiting for her.

When even Michelle Malkin called BS on this story, you knew how it was going to turn out.

Oh, granted, Pam. She needs to be held to account and she really deserves her national humiliation right now. I’m really grateful that she was so less successful at peddling her racist hoax that Stuart and Smith had been. Her actions were reckless, racist, and completely inexcusable. I’m saddened that kind of mindset still exists and could be employed in such a craven manner. I mean, Stuart and Smith did something horribly wrong they were trying to cover up. This woman… I just don’t know why she could have thought this would work or why it is was worth doing. To do this just to score political points? I’m just trying to hope she’s in a very mentally troubled place right now, because otherwise her actions are really sickening. What I know is more than a tragedy, though, are the McCain backers who tried to use this to attack Obama. We know they were just eager to whip up racist hysteria to serve political ends. We know the McCain campaign itself seemed to be pushing this story. I can’t hold McCain to account for this young woman, but the way his supporters and perhaps campaign rushed to promote the hoax is all on him and its not the least bit pretty.

Jesse,

Really a terrible case. I hope no tall, large black men in the area lost any sleep over this fiend’s false accusations. I hope the law comes down hard on her.

Side question: After this, will Amanda reverse her position that all men accused of rape, or violence against women, are guilty? Figured I’d ask.

I was skeptical as soon as I read it too, but then felt awful for the sheer thought, that someone would make that up seemed ridiculous. I guess not.

“This woman… I just don’t know why she could have thought this would work or why it is was worth doing.”

Because she’s mentally ill?  Even for true believers, letting somebody beat you up and slash your face is pretty much a bridge too far.  Especially if you’re part of the camp that values women first, second, and third for their looks.

The thing that made me think it was a hoax, before I even saw a picture or heard the “B” was backwards or anything else, was that they said she was a member of the College Republicans. There is a long and well documented history of CRs being some of the most aggressive and creative hateful Republicans there are.

Its not the average Republican in a red state that votes against their own interest were CRs, its the Republicans hired by places like The Heritage Foundation that were CRs.

No, Mr. Jones, Amanda and her crack squad of castrating ninja-feminists believe that ALL men accused of rape or violence must be executed on sight. Happy? Now you can go crawl back under your rock.

You just know that Todd is baffled that anyone didn’t believe her. But, but, she said it was a BLACK man! That always works, how could anyone doubt her?

After this, will Amanda reverse her position that all men accused of rape, or violence against women, are guilty? Figured I’d ask.

Granted I’m new around here, but when has Amanda ever said that?  Obviously not “all” men accused are guilty, just the vast, vast majority.  Happy?

This woman… I just don’t know why she could have thought this would work or why it is was worth doing. To do this just to score political points?

I think the “thought” process was:

- I know that Obama supporters are doing bad things, but the stories are being suppressed by the liberal media
- If I provide the “evidence” by claiming to have been attacked by one, then all of the other incidents will be revealed and I’ll be a heroine

Given her age, I’m not that surprised that she would do something stupid and self-aggrandizing on the assumption she would never be caught.  There’s also probably a big honkin’ load of white privilege, in that she assumed that what she said would be taken at face value by the police and not investigated at all because, hey, everyone knows that black men mug helpless white women a hundred times a day, so one more story like that won’t be looked at too closely.

I hope no tall, large black men in the area lost any sleep over this fiend’s false accusations.

Yes, it’s not like no one has ever lied about a black man, say, murdering his wife and unborn child.  Or claimed that a black man kidnapped and murdered her children when she had done it herself.

Why on earth would black men be afraid of being falsely accused of a crime when the police have such a wonderful record of fully investigating these kinds of claims before making an arrest?

John Moody, executive VP of Fox News:

If the incident turns out to be a hoax, Senator McCain’s quest for the presidency is over, forever linked to race-baiting.

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/23/jmoody_1023/

I wonder if the toady intends to stick by his own words.  Man am I glad the conservative media decided to blow this thing up all over the place yesterday… they would have been so much smarter to not touch this thing with a 50 foot pole from the get go, until more information was fleshed out.  Alas, it will now blow up in their faces, and that makes me happy.

Olbermann and Maddow are gonna have a field day with this one tonight.

“But the B looked perfect when I was looking in a mirror…”

I love how the wingnuts keep pulling the big race panic trigger, only to find out the chamber and clips is empty.

This is the best election ever.

I’ll just unfurl my Mission Accomplished banner and take my leave then.

After this, will Amanda reverse her position that all men accused of rape, or violence against women, are guilty? Figured I’d ask.

I knew it was coming. I’m shocked it took so long.

Do you think she should be prosecuted for her false accusation?

I still can’t help wondering how she got a black eye.  Did she fall off her bike?  Did she really hit herself in the face? 

Or did she get punched and then persuaded by Mr. Punchy to add a “B” to the mix and trot out this story for the greater good of the homeland?

Cause it’s still quite possible someone hit her .... just not a black, Obama supporter someone. 

After all, Susan Smith and Charles Stuart invented Scary Blackamoors! in order to cover up something else.

She will have the book thrown at her. Police don’t look kindly on filing false reports. It both wastes their time and taxpayer money, while at the same time diverting said resources to solving REAL crimes.

Sorry, MikeEss, I should’ve known better.

Er, diverting FROM.

Oh, this is rich…

http://townhall.com/blog/g/dca1000e-7c29-4ba7-a665-0ccac4f69c9f?comments=true#comments

Now the running theory in the wingnutteria is that Ashley Todd is in fact an Obama supporting plant, posing as a College Republican, concocting this whole story knowing it would get a lot of attention, and then confessing the truth to have it all backfire on John McCain.

These people need straight jackets.  Thank God they are about to have their asses handed to them in 11 days.

Given her age, I’m not that surprised that she would do something stupid and self-aggrandizing on the assumption she would never be caught.  There’s also probably a big honkin’ load of white privilege, in that she assumed that what she said would be taken at face value by the police and not investigated at all because, hey, everyone knows that black men mug helpless white women a hundred times a day, so one more story like that won’t be looked at too closely.

Why do we assume that women are equal to men in trying to game the system by making false accusations in all arenas except sex?

If this woman had not drawn that “B” on her face, and instead claimed a sexual assault, do you think you would have been more likely or less likely to believe her?

If her claim about a black man was racist, how about a statement like “Can’t a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it?”  Is that racist or not?

Also from the Moody blog, before the hoax was revealed:
If Ms. Todd’s allegations are proven accurate, some voters may revisit their support for Senator Obama, not because they are racists (with due respect to Rep. John Murtha), but because they suddenly feel they do not know enough about the Democratic nominee.
I just—there are no words.  Even if this woman’s story had been true, how would it in ANY WAY reflect on Senator Obama, let alone how much we “know” about him?  They’re not even bothering to pretend their innuendos make sense anymore.

Now the running theory in the wingnutteria is that Ashley Todd is in fact an Obama supporting plant, posing as a College Republican, concocting this whole story knowing it would get a lot of attention, and then confessing the truth to have it all backfire on John McCain.

God damn, their cognitive dissonance is meta.

Granted I’m new around here, but when has Amanda ever said that? 

Not that I know of, but it’s probably something the Amanda Marcotte that lives in his head said, the “Amanda Strawcotte” if you will.

And no worries, MikeEss.

Nicole, you know that, when one black person does something, all black people have acted.  Didn’t you know that they have a hive mind?

The victim IS an A-hole and I hope she hangs for this.

On the brighter side, I needed a cheap costume for Halloween.  I can be Ashley Todd for the price of 3 McCain/Palin buttons, an A&M;sweatshirt, deep plum eye shadow and a red Sharpie marker.

But yeah, she probably did beat herself up and carve the backwards B into her face.
I don’t think she did that much self mutilation.

The black eye is an obvious fake. The white of her eye is clear instead of red with burst capillaries and there’s no hint of swelling. It wouldn’t be that black if it only just happened—it would be more red. So mascara was the culprit there. Also the backwards B looks too perfect—and was obviously scratched in, not carved in with a knife.

But I feel sorry for her. An obvious bid for attention. I’d feel more sorry for any black man she would have tried to finger for the “crime” if the cops hadn’t been so vigilant.

Grrr, I just posed that Halloween costume idea to my friend at work!  But I called it “cheap and inappropriate.” 

This is the same shit these same people pulled in previous generations to get innocent people killed. This lying bitch is no different from the woman who got Emmett Till murdered.

That’s okay, they’ll just release her to the custody of her brother Sweeney. He’s a real working-class kind of guy I hear.

*facepalm*

Then again, at least she’s so discredited nobody will believe her anymore.  Makes the business go that much smoother, doesn’t it?

This lying bitch is no different from the woman who got Emmett Till murdered.

Grendel72, this thread could have gone perfectly well.  It could’ve been a good way for us to get our snark going on this liar and her claims.

And then you had to open the can of worms.

Thanks loads.

Lou,
Exactly right. That “black eye” is obviously no genuine shiner or mouse. She’d get an “F” in Hollywood makeup class for that attempt. The backward B is even worse, looks like a superficial scrape with a butter knife while looking in a mirror. That she’s a College Republican from Texas makes her seem less like a disturbed individual and more like someone calculating a smear that would get her in the news. The scenario writes itself - Good Republican girl from Red State Texas heads up to eeeevil northeast city and gets mugged by equally eeevil Big Black Buck who wants to punish her for her patriotic McCain/Palin bumpersticker. I’m just surprised she didn’t have him say, “Where’s my motherfucking iced tea. bitch?”. She may be disturbed, but calculating and legally sane.

This is the same shit these same people pulled in previous generations to get innocent people killed. This lying bitch is no different from the woman who got Emmett Till murdered.

Is she any different from Crystal Mangum?  If so, how?  If not, what does that say about this site’s avid defense of Mangum?  Did that defense become racist?

anon, may I suggest you go find a nice hole to crawl into?  Somewhere far away?

Damian,
Grow up. Our ugly history is why this sort of smear often works, even in court. Ignore it, and you let it happen again and again, perhaps without the same ugly results (black men have served time in prison for rape and assault that were innocent and eventually were exonerated, and some probably still are in prison even though innocent because evidence was not kept or was tampered with). Snark has its place, but there is something behind this that is far too serious to snark about.

papa zita, let me tell you something: First, you don’t EVER tell me what to do.  EVER.  Do I make myself perfectly clear?  Second, just because this is a serious matter doesn’t mean we can’t have a good laugh at the expense of a liar being exposed for lying.  Third, my point was that Grendel72 called the liar a “lying bitch”, which doesn’t fly around here.

I would suggest you shut the fuck up, sit down, and let the adults talk without your self-righteous nattering, thank you very fucking much.

“Now the running theory in the wingnutteria is that Ashley Todd is in fact an Obama supporting plant, posing as a College Republican, concocting this whole story knowing it would get a lot of attention, and then confessing the truth to have it all backfire on John McCain.

God damn, their cognitive dissonance is meta.”

Actually, I was kinda expecting them to come up with this one as soon as I heard Assley Todd had confessed to making up the whole story. The scum are nothing if not predictable.

Third, my point was that Grendel72 called the liar a “lying bitch”, which doesn’t fly around here.
What the fuck ever. Hopefully we can count ourselves lucky and no black men have been murdered by the psycho-racist lynch mobs the McCain campaign has been drumming up, but this fucking liar isn’t helping matters any. This is the exact same model people like her used in the past to rile up mobs to murder innocent people.

Hey, lay off everybody- I’m sure she’s beating herself up about this already….

Hi-yo!  I’ll be here all week!

Do you think she should be prosecuted for her false accusation?

I think she clearly needs psychological help, so that’s probably what she should be sentenced to.

Oh, and I love how the fact that Crystal Mangum was not raped by those specific men has magically transformed her into someone who lied about the whole thing, despite, you know, the DNA evidence in the rape kit that cleared the kids.  You do remember that’s how they were cleared, don’t you?

Crime victims do sometimes make mistaken identifications.  Nice to know that you think rape victim Jennifer Thompson should be prosecuted because she identified the wrong man as her rapist from her hospital bed.

What the fuck ever. Hopefully we can count ourselves lucky and no black men have been murdered by the psycho-racist lynch mobs the McCain campaign has been drumming up

Yeah, Damian, didn’t you know it’s OKAY to be a sexist ass as long as you’re doing it to yell at RACIST asses?

where’s that eyeroll smiley…

Oh, and I love how the fact that Crystal Mangum was not raped by those specific men has magically transformed her into someone who lied about the whole thing, despite, you know, the DNA evidence in the rape kit that cleared the kids.  You do remember that’s how they were cleared, don’t you?

She didn’t lie about the whole thing during the entire 18 months when she kept on changing her story?

The dna in the italics rape kit that didn’t belong at all to the students or back up her story in anyway?

That’s what makes Amanda’s statement not racist and not sexist?

Regarding Thompson, purposefully made false accusations should be prosecuted.  Mistaken identification is not the same thing, as you, et. al., point out all the time.

Why is it easy for me to say that rapes should be prosecuted to the fullest AND that false accusations should also be prosecuted, and yet, no feminists can do anything more than mumble that false accusations are rare, and should be addressed with psychological help, and not jail time?

That’s not gender equality.  That’s condescending and patronizing to women.  And it’s sexist behavior and very convenient.

Why does it always have to be a black guy who gets blamed in these hoaxes?  Are we all so racist that saying it was a black man is supposed to make it seem more likely?  I wondered what happened to this thread yesterday.  I was reading it and then I had to do something else, and when I came back to Pandagon it was gone.  I thought I was losing my mind.

papa zita, let me tell you something: First, you don’t EVER tell me what to do.  EVER.  Do I make myself perfectly clear?  Second, just because this is a serious matter doesn’t mean we can’t have a good laugh at the expense of a liar being exposed for lying.  Third, my point was that Grendel72 called the liar a “lying bitch”, which doesn’t fly around here.

I would suggest you shut the fuck up, sit down, and let the adults talk without your self-righteous nattering, thank you very fucking much.

Ooh, fight! fight!

Internet Tough Guy = fail

My kid and I were sitting at my Mom’s dinner table last night when this story hit the local ‘Burgh news…of course, I doubted the hell out of it, but it was the 16-year old who hollered “BULLSHIT!!!!” before I could even say a word. Bless her heart.

And isn’t it *really, really sad* that this shit has become so fucking *predictable*?? That when something like this comes out, we can be 99% sure that it’s a crock of shit??

God, how the fuck did we *get* here???

This just destroyed McCain’s already slim chances in PA, and Murtha will now hold onto his seat.

Hey she already admitted to lying…Still…

Just to keep the local chapter of NOW happy, they should round up the Men’s Lacrosse team at the University of Pittsburg.

Sockpuppets fail harder.

Trolls.

The dna in the italics rape kit that didn’t belong at all to the students or back up her story in anyway?

You know, there was a reason I brought up a previous case where a rape victim misidentified her rapist.  If you think real, real hard, you might be able to figure out what I think that has to do with the Duke fiasco.

Purposeful false reports should be prosecuted, but many people think that people like Tory Bowen should be prosecuted because her rapist’s case ended in a hung jury.  If he wasn’t convicted, then clearly she (and the two women the judge refused to allow to testify) maliciously lied about the whole thing and should go to jail, right?

anonytroll, how about that in this case there’s really obvious evidence that she was making it up? I think we’d have the same reaction if a woman told police that a guy raped her in front of security cameras, when the tapes showed no such thing. There is no such really obvious tipoff in most rape cases.

Hey, what about the O.J. Simpson Trial? I’m sure this is related to that somehow, too! /snark

Hey anon (too much of a coward to even use a name?), the difference is that the law investigates and finds evidence or lack thereof. The crazy-assed lynch mobs the McCain campaign has been riling up don’t give a shit.
No matter how much you try to deny historical precedent, the big difference here is race. This country has a long and horrific history of murdering black men based on spurious charges. We also have a long and horrific history of blaming the victim whenever there is a charge of rape.
It’s notable that this false charge was not a rape charge- because the fucking lying scum who made up this bullshit knows there is a double standard. There is no reason other than intellectual dishonesty to even pretend this case is even remotely similar to the Duke case. Well that and being a worthless misogynist moron.

A commenter on Washington Monthly remembers that this isn’t exactly the first time College Republicans have faked being assaulted.  Here’s the one that happened at Princeton, and here’s the one from the University of Michigan.

You’d think that the fact that these two got caught would stop other people from trying the same thing, but hope springs eternal, I guess.

No takers? Darn.

Well, former Republican Mass Governor and Romney supporter in the primaries William Weld has carved a “B” onto his face (metaphorically), endorsing Obama and calling it a “no brainer”.

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/10/24/more-republicans-jump-ship-weld-mcclellan-support-obama/

Do you think she should be prosecuted for her false accusation?

Well, that depends. If, as the article linked suggests, she has a history of mental illness, I believe that prosecution should only be used to compel her to get medical attention. I don’t care what side of an issue a person is on - if they have a mental illness that is driving them to do stupid, destructive things, we should cut them some slack. I don’t think she or anyone else would be well served by her doing jail time over this. A suspended sentence under the condition of mandatory treatment, with the consequence of going straight to jail should she either not get treatment or do something like this again - I think that would be just.

Oh Jesus fucking Christ. Of course purposeful false police reports should be prosecuted—but that doesn’t mean that everyone who isn’t able to get a conviction should be thrown in jail. For the love of God, that’s what trials are for. Nobody would ever report any crimes EVER if they were afraid they might go to jail for having done so.

What have I said that’s remotely misogynistic?  In fact, I’ve advocated treated men and women of all races equally.  It’s you, mnemosyne, and others that are here to claim that women that make false accusations are poor frail things that need psychological help and not jail time.

I think we’d have the same reaction if a woman told police that a guy raped her in front of security cameras, when the tapes showed no such thing.

Rebecca, I think you’re right about that.  In fact, if you google it up, there’s a fun case of a video of a woman complaining a cop groped her, when the cop’s dashcam shows nothing like that occurred.

My point is that we have all of this evidence that women are JUST like men, and will game the system when they can, and will purposefully make false accusations for revenge (and other reasons) when they can, so as I asked earlier, why is there any difference between when a woman does this in terms of sexual assault?

Why are we told to pretend that women would not do that?
Why are we told that women should not be prosecuted for malicious false accusations, but should be given psychological help?

Why can’t we say that rapes should be prosecuted AND that malicious false allegations of rape should be prosecuted?

Look at the stock market melting down.  What happens to bad behavior when we reward for bad behavior?  What happens to good behavior when we reward for bad behavior?

And why do the victims of malicious false allegations of rape and sexual assault deserve less care from society than the victims of malicious false allegations of other crimes?

I see what you did there, calling me anonytroll.  Pretty clever really.

I’m just so annoyed that people are using this as an excuse to make the argument that rape should be basically legal.

Fortunately, this story didn’t end with some young man having his life ruined. And “the lying bitch that got Emmett Till killed”? What the fuck is that? Two men murdered Emmett Till—way to absolve them of any responsibility, jerkoff.

Can we all get back to what a crappy makeup job Todd did? The backward B was priceless. And it’s the same color as her lipstick.

How DARE you Obama extremists doubt the word of a WOMAN who’s been assaulted!

This just shows what a bunch of MISOGYNISTS you are!!

Just having to read this site is an assault on me, and on ALL WOMEN!!

Help!  I’m being assaulted by Obama supporters!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me too!!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

In fact, just the existence of black men is an assault on my delicate femininity… let alone having to tolerate one as Presdient!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anonytroll (Bagley? Hi), you’re setting up a strawman. Malicious false accusation of rape =/= rape accusation that failed to win a conviction. I think we can all agree that the former should be prosecuted, just like in this case, where it’s not that evidence failed to win a conviction, but where there was actually evidence that she was lying with malicious intent.

Wow this thread got ugly…

This thread is going down the toilet, much like John McCain’s campaign.

Anon: Near as I remember, after Crystal Magnum’s accusation against the Duke lacrosse players fell apart, I remember hearing that she had a history of mental illness (schizophrenia, if I recall correctly). Like many people living with a severe mental illness, it wasn’t so incapacitating that she needed to live in a supportive living facility or was on SSI; she was able to go to college and hold down a job to support her daughter.

In my past experience working with people with mental illness, a traumatic event (like being raped) can cause previously well controlled symptoms (like hallucinations and delusional thinking) to break through. When this happens, the individual in question may not be able to give a clear and accurate account of what happened to them. Furthermore, they will continue to believe that their delusions are an accurate recollection of events despite all evidence to the contrary. This is what I believe to be the case with Crystal Magnum. The evidence from the rape kit strongly suggests that she was raped. I believe that she was. However, the evidence shows that Duke Lacrosse guys weren’t the ones who did it. It’s a shitty situation all around.

It has also been my experience that people with severe mental illnesses, male and female alike, are especially vulnerable to sexual assault. Aside from the fact that predatory individuals consider people with a severe mental illness to be easy pickings (what with the whole ‘the crazy bitch is lying’ excuse being built right in), their cognitive impairments can make it especially hard for them to pick up on the enviormental cues in a situation that set off the most people’s warning bells. Just a little food for thought…

And naturally the McCain campaign was directly pushing this racist lie on the media.

Just a little food for thought…

Unless you’re going to spoon feed it, and it says exactly what they want it to say, they will spit your food for thought on the floor. Hence why we say…

don’t feed the trolls.

I don’t know who Bagley is, sorry.

I think we can all agree that the former should be prosecuted,

I think you’re mistaken about that.  I think a survey of the main feminist sites (pandagon, shakesville, feministing, feministe, broadsheet) shows that time after time, deliberate and malicious false accusations are treated as occurring so rarely as to be almost an ignorable problem.  In fact, they are considered a myth, because we are told that reporting rape is so strenuous and that there is nothing to gain by reporting rape, and that reporting rape is so humiliating, that no women would report a deliberate false accusation.

I think you’d find many statements to that effect, and that punishing women who make deliberately make false accusations will in fact make it harder for true victims of rape to report rape.

I think you’d even find statements that feminists like Jeralyn Merritt of TalkLeft was somehow not a real feminist because she called out the Duke rape early on as nonsense.

I truly don’t believe in comparing suffering, but you’d find many statements that what a victim of a deliberate false accusation of rape goes through is nothing like what the rape victim goes through.

I think you’d find racist and sexist statements like Amanda’s that fly in the face of what we know occurred.

You’d find statements like Samhita’s that what the Duke Students went through, they deserved, and in fact, was a good experience, because it shows them what black men go through everyday.

So I think you’re mistaken.

I think civil libertarians, once associated with liberals, are concerned about rape as well as malicious false accusations of rape.  I think it’s pretty clear that modern feminists poo-pooh the issue and downplay it and try to rationalize it. 

It’s one reason why I don’t consider modern feminism to be in close alignment with progressive liberalism, where we fight for the human rights of all.

Check out: www.buttheadpolice.com

Vote for buttheads like Palin and McCain to get asses stamped on their already assy heads.  And pass it on!!

Hey anonycoward, still refusing to acknowledge that the liar in this case didn’t claim sexual assault?
There is a reason the liar in this case didn’t make that claim, you know. Because if she had people would have been questioning her immediately, she would have been treated like a criminal even by people who believed her story.

Unless you’re going to spoon feed it, and it says exactly what they want it to say, they will spit your food for thought on the floor. Hence why we say…

How is that saying what the anon-a-troll is trying to get me to say? He’s implying that she’s a liar who had a financial motive. It’s pretty obvious to me that she was raped and furthermore, she will probably never see justice served for the man/men who did indeed rape her. It’s pretty fucking tragic and it pisses me off.

It’s also not unlike the Central Park rape - not being able to identify your assailant doesn’t mean that the rape didn’t happen. Identifying the wrong person as your assailant, doesn’t mean that the rape didn’t happen. However, a lot of rape apologist have made exactly that claim. In both the Duke and the Central Park cases, the women who were raped were dragged through the mud by the people supporting the accused. In the the Central Park rape, the implication what that the woman was in the park to buy drugs. In the Duke case, the implication was that she was she made false accusations with malicious intent.

Malicious accusations of rape, anonytroll, are indeed so uncommon as to be almost negligible. That does not mean that they should not be prosecuted when they occur, and you haven’t proven that anyone thinks otherwise.

You’re also ignoring my point that a malicious accusation of rape, where there is evidence to back up the argument that it was deliberately contrived, is not the same thing as a regular accusation of rape, where there is not enough evidence to win a conviction.

I think a survey of the main feminist sites (pandagon, shakesville, feministing, feministe, broadsheet) shows that time after time, deliberate and malicious false accusations are treated as occurring so rarely as to be almost an ignorable problem.

I notice you’re not providing any evidence to counter this statement you feel the feminist sites promulgate.

Moreover, you apparently are not defining “deliberate and malicious false accusations” very well.

More precision, please.

Hey anonycoward, still refusing to acknowledge that the liar in this case didn’t claim sexual assault? ...Because if she had people would have been questioning her immediately, she would have been treated like a criminal even by people who believed her story.

That’s not what the anecdotal evidence shows.  For example, Crystal Mangum, or Nick Kiddle, or really, any of the stories you can read weekly in the papers about women who maliciously falsely accused men and who are defended by modern feminists.

And really, if the woman here hadn’t scratched that “B” in her face, but had claimed sexual assault, are you telling me that no one here would have defended her?  Seriously?

Echolalia, I just saw your post.  My understanding of the rape kit shows she had sex with multiple partners, but apart from that, didn’t show evidence of rape.  The evidence from witnesses is that she did falsely and maliciously accuse the students.  Is she mentally ill?  Perhaps.  That could be a reason not to charge her and should be a mitigating factor during sentencing if she was charged.  If she is that mentally ill, that she doesn’t understand right from wrong, I do hope they have removed her child from her presence.

<blockquote> That’s not what the anecdotal evidence shows <blockquote>

Anecdotal evidence is not data. Not given the large numbers of people in this country.

More precision, please.

From:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/borderline-campaign-disorder-b-hoax.html

Friday, October 24, 2008
Borderline Campaign Disorder: The “B” Hoax

On a cold night in Pittsburgh, a disturbed young woman committed an act all too common—she called in an attack on herself, stating that she had been attacked by a black man who had robbed her, and, seeing the McCain sticker on her car, in a fit of social activism somehow compatible with his immediately previous psychopathy, slashed a “B” into her face.  That the B was, in fact, backwards—as would be the case if one was putting it on themselves while looking into a mirror—was no doubt meant as a literary irony, such as the “Amerika” of earlier social radicals, while the lightness of the scratching—despite the “attacker’s” cited “rage”—was no doubt a signal of his electoral ambivalence in this tight race.

Of course, the event, implausible as fact even to the most rabid fictionalists on the right-wing, was a hoax. Anyone who understands the diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder is well aware of what happened here. Extreme needs for attention combine with physically destructive behavior—most often seen in cutting one’s own skin—in an act meant to bring outer love and attention as it attacks inner self-hatred.

The act is rarely carefully planned. One of the key features of Borderline Personality Disorder is impulsivity. The act is usually spurred by rage. As a result, they spring to action, in order to address the immediate need, without any consideration of how the behavior will later unravel. There is an intense desire to address a powerful sense of abandonment with an impulsive and ultimately self-destructive action.

In a supreme irony, these characteristics mirror the tactical efforts of the McCain/Palin ticket throughout this campaign: impulsivity, an emphasis on the grand gesture that is poorly thought through, and that is ultimately self destructive.

Perhaps the act was wiser than it seems.

Perhaps it was meant as homage.

UPDATE: Woman has been identified as having as history of mental illness. That this would be used by media and, if so, by the campaign is reprehensible

Cite:
Head of State
http://headofstate.blogspot.com/2008/10/borderline-campaign-disorder-b-hoax.html

You’re also ignoring my point that a malicious accusation of rape, where there is evidence to back up the argument that it was deliberately contrived, is not the same thing as a regular accusation of rape, where there is not enough evidence to win a conviction.

Oh.  Well I agree 100% with that.

Regarding your other point and gwangung’s point, I think you folks are being disingenuous, or not reading the above blogs if you are really claiming that your modern feminists don’t paper over deliberate and malicious false accusations all of the time.

Just look at Samhita and Amanda’s comments about Duke, stated by them AFTER charges were dropped and after the AG took the very unusual step of declaring them innocent.

Heh, when in this forum, I’ve explained the several times during a custody battle that my ex made deliberate and false accusations against me, I was called a wifebeater and a pedophile.  I was told that if someone could figure out who I really was, they would call my employer.

If you want to argue that the problem of deliberate false allegations is so low as to be ignorable, that’s one thing, and we can discuss that.  To pretend that time after time, modern feminists aren’t papering over the problem isn’t even worth a discussion.

As I said above, the argument is usually NOT that modern feminists don’t paper over the problem, the usual argument is that it is necessary to ignore the problem in order to make sure real rapes are reported.

Get real.

The backward “B” was kind of the give-away.  An “O” would be easier to carve and make more sense for a Obama supporter.  The backwardness of the B makes one think of a mirror image, as in being done whiole standing in front of a mirror. Sad person working for an even sadder campaign.

Stories like this demonstrate that the MRA fear of false rape accusations is so much fucking hogwash.

It’s hard to make false accusations and make them stick.  Most people are horrible liars.  In order to come up with a lie, a plausible story has to be concocted in the first place.  All contingencies have to be accounted for.  The lie has to be as simple as possible so the liar can stick to it, and the liar cannot under any circumstances forget or embellish any element of the lie.

When most people lie, they don’t think that far ahead.  They say things that are implausible from the get-go, concoct stories that are way too complicated, make stuff up as they go along, contradict themselves, and ultimately dig their own graves.  Just like this woman.

This is why false rape accusations are so rare in the first place and why they rarely gain any traction.  The Duke Lacrosse case would not have gone on for more than a month if it hadn’t been for that overzealous prosecutor who ignored all the obvious evidence of contradictions, backtracking, and lying by the accuser.  And it should be noted that most investigators and prosecutors are not that zealous.  Their knee-jerk reaction is not to believe the accuser and put her under such scrutiny that even natural inconsistencies or forgotten details (that always happen to victims of violent crimes) become evidence of lying.  That is why there are so few false accusations, and that is why so few real accusations result in prosecutions.

So, in short, go fuck yourself, anon.

Heh, when in this forum, I’ve explained the several times during a custody battle that my ex made deliberate and false accusations against me, I was called a wifebeater and a pedophile.  I was told that if someone could figure out who I really was, they would call my employer.

Ding, ding, ding!  Liar alert!  Liar alert!  Proof or it didn’t happen, asshole.  In order for a lie to work it has to be plausible and can’t draw on overused tropes and stereotypes, kind of like how Ms. Todd shouldn’t have accused a big, black buck of assaulting her and you shouldn’t have accused your ex (if you ever had one) of leveling charges of domestic violence and pedophilia.

Liar, liar, pants on fire.

My understanding of the rape kit shows she had sex with multiple partners, but apart from that, didn’t show evidence of rape.  The evidence from witnesses is that she did falsely and maliciously accuse the students.

I would like to see that evidence of malice on her part, please.  Now.  Otherwise, I will have to assume you’re a liar.

Please note that statements from the now-disbarred Nifong don’t count as “proof” since he’s already been prosecuted for lying repeatedly about the case.

Change the subject at all cost! We mustn’t talk about an outrageous racist lie that was pushed by the McCain campaign!

Mnemosyne, according to the wiki, “The strip club’s security officer said that Mangum told co-workers four days after the party that she was going to get money from some boys at a Duke party who had not paid her, mentioning that the boys were white.”

“Stories like this demonstrate that the MRA fear of false rape accusations is so much fucking hogwash. “

Thanks keshmelshi for proving my point.  Rebecca, Grendel72, I hope you are reading.  As I said, it’s rare to find someone take your point, that modern feminists are actually concerned about false accusations.  Almost all the time the point is different, “no we don’t care, because a) the problem doesn’t exist, or b) it’s necessary to ignore them to make sure all real rapes are reported.”  Keshmelshi takes the well refuted (a) position.

By the way (b) should be understood to go against what statistics tells us about type I and type II error.

Nice lying, anon, again.  Do you know how to do anything else?

No, my point wasn’t that there are no false rape accusation, but that they are easily found out.  Now go lie your worthless ass off somewhere else.

“Change the subject at all cost! We mustn’t talk about an outrageous racist lie that was pushed by the McCain campaign!”

Aren’t you the one who brought up the “lying bitch” stereotype?  The one that’s like an engraved, personalized invitation for rape-denial trolls to line up and tell the world about how bitches are always plotting to do men wrong and you might as well stick your dick in a bear trap because sometimes they even have sex with you just so that they can later have you charged with rape?  Which is pretty much guaranfuckingteed to derail any thread, because those trolls are persistent as only those with no lives can be and will, if necessary, just post “Duke!  Nifong!  Duke!” over and over again until banned?

keshmeshi,

Why should we think that deliberate false accusations of rape, molestation have any different rate than that for other crimes?  The FBI says that rate is 8%.  We have seen many studies say that deliberate false accusations of rape range from 20% to 40% to higher.  But modern feminists tend to push a debunked Brownmiller estimate of 2% and then do as you do, and say that anyone that cares about these cases are filthy MRAs.  As opposed to just being progressive liberal civil libertarians.

Any of those figures are above the principle in our country that we don’t throw the innocent in jail.  Better that 100 guilty go free than jail on innocent….

But the charges don’t have to stick to do their damage do they?  And that’s due to the abuse of temporary restraining orders and ex-parte hearings.  Where one party makes the accusation in an affidavit.  A judge grants the TRO.  And weeks later the charges are overturned.  But in the meantime, kids are taken away, and people are kicked out of their homes.

And the charges, even when found out, are typically coupled with some sort of female sentencing discount, right?  Where the women are found to be mentally ill, or given a fine, or a few days in jail, while the man falsely accused of rape is given years in jail, and dragged through the mud.

Once again I ask, why is it that your MRA types want to prosecute rape AND want to prosecute deliberate false accusations but that modern feminists like you can only deride the idea by claiming there is nothing to fear about?

If the rate is so low, if deliberate false accusations are so easily found out, what’s your worry?

Isn’t the liberal civil liberties point of view one that wants to protect the innocent, regardless of gender?  Why isn’t that the modern feminist view?

Mnemosyne, according to the wiki, “The strip club’s security officer said that Mangum told co-workers four days after the party that she was going to get money from some boys at a Duke party who had not paid her, mentioning that the boys were white.”

So you have one person who only worked at the club for four months with no corroborating witnesses who claims this and it’s definitive proof that she lied about being raped at all?  Please also note the timeline:  she didn’t say ahead of time that she was going to lie about being raped.  She said this after the incident and even showed the guy her hospital bracelet from the emergency room.

You may be shocked to hear this, but most women who lie about being raped will not go within a hundred miles of a hospital where they could be examined by people who would catch them in the lie.  The fact that she went to the hospital the night of the incident and immediately reported that she’d been raped is more indicative of a rape having occurred than of someone who’s faking the whole thing.

Again, the fact that she was not raped at that party by those lacrosse players doesn’t mean no one raped her that night.  The physical evidence gathered by the police points towards a rape having occurred, not against it.  The problem is that she’s not a reliable witness because of her existing mental problems and issues with drugs.  Unless there’s a DNA matchup years later (as in the Central Park Jogger case), we unfortunately will never know what actually happened to her.

Oh, and did you know the guy was a criminal?

Thomas said he worked as security manager at the club from January through April. He said he had little to gain by coming forward because of a pending cocaine possession charge.

Wow, that’s some A+ proof there, ace.

Aren’t you the one who brought up the “lying bitch” stereotype?
I’m the one who referred to the lying scumbag as exactly what she is, yes. that is no excuse for these assholes who are changing the subject so they can get their troll-points from the McCain campaign.
The issue here is that we have a lie, the exact same lie that has historically been used to drum up lynch mobs to murder innocent black men in this country, and that lie was actively pushed by the McCain campaign. You can allow the lying bigots to change the subject if you want to, I suppose, but they can’t change the facts. The McCain campaign was actively pushing a racist lie that had a strong potential to result in violence against innocent people.

There’s no evidence she was raped, she admitted having consensual sex with at least three people in the preceding days and she certainly wasn’t raped by the students.  Which is of course what makes Amanda’s and Samhita’s post both sexist as well as racist.

Cocaine possession makes this guy an unreliable witness?  You’re a hoot.  She once stole a taxi and tried to run over a cop.  In her new online book, she still claims she was assaulted in the house.

Your loyalty to her is admirable, but it seems far more clear that you just cannot admit how wrong most feminists (Jeralyn Merritt excepted) got it wrong and so you are forced to spin and rationalize.

Bringing up a rape case that happened two years ago where the guilty parties were punished and the innocent men set free with an apology certainly shows the dangers of feminism, because buh?

You are a lying scumbag, anon.  And you still haven’t addressed your lies about being accused of DV and molestation yourself.  Were you lying about the accusations completely or about your innocence?

It’s nice to know that FBI statistics aren’t good enough for you.  And thank you for not providing those “studies”.  Really a good way to prove that you’re not a fucking liar.

Restraining orders aren’t relevant to accusations of rape, false or real.  Try to keep your MRA bullshit straight.

The idea that false rape accusations are that damaging is fucking laughable.  Most of those accusations never get publicized.  I hate to break it to you, but, for the most part, the press doesn’t give a shit about petty lowlifes such as yourself.

As far as men being falsely convicted of rape.  In all of those cases, a rape did occur but the wrong person was prosecuted for it.  Prove me wrong, asshole.  Oh, but of course you won’t because you’re a pathological liar.

There’s no evidence she was raped ...

You mean other than the evidence the police gathered from her?  The police who were actually there and took her statement said that they did think she had been raped, but that she was incoherent and unable to identify her attackers.  I guess if a woman can’t identify her attacker(s), that means she lied about the whole thing even if there’s physical evidence, right?

... she admitted having consensual sex with at least three people in the preceding days ...

Even prostitutes can be raped, asshole.  Having sex, even having it more than once, doesn’t give someone permission to rape you because, hey, you’re such a slut and it’s not like anyone will believe you anyway.

... and she certainly wasn’t raped by the students.

Because those 24 students whose DNA was tested were the only people present within a 5-mile radius, so there’s no possible way she could have been raped by anyone else.  Uh-huh.

Your loyalty to her is admirable, but it seems far more clear that you just cannot admit how wrong most feminists (Jeralyn Merritt excepted) got it wrong and so you are forced to spin and rationalize.

Yes, pointing out that the police on the scene believed she’d been raped is all just spin.  Riiight.

Damian,
I won’t ever tell you to grow up again. Be forever Peter Pan, and fly to Neverland.

What’s Ashley Todd’s connection to the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, given that in the pictures in the article to which the post links she’s wearing a sweatshirt from the same university where Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit just so happens to be a professor? Just wondering.

Note that if Duke were located in Wasilla, AK, those boys might have stood trial rather than be exonerated.  That’s because there may not have been a rape kit done if the cost competed with her ability to buy her kid food.

Now now, Ms Kate, that’s not true. The case would never have come to trial because of lack of evidence. *eyeroll*

I think one of the questions that needs to be asked here is, “What does the McCain campaign know about this, and how did they know it before the police report?”

Blimey, ‘Es answered me and I can’t see ‘is answer! ‘E fell in the bloody killfile, ‘e did. And I ‘avent got the gloves to fish ‘im out.

Stupid girl
All you had you wasted
All you had you wasted

Stupid girl
You stupid girl
Cant believe you faked it
Cant believe you faked it

(That should have been the theme song for her perp walk).

Garbage

Anon: the modern feminist argument is not that false and malicious rape accusations are permissible, but rather that they are negligible. 8%, as you yourself stated. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and trust that the FBI has the most reasonable statistics there are, and is not a bastion of crazy feminism.

Ok, so what does this tell us? Well, for every 23 real rapes, 2 women will accuse men of rape that did not occur. Reprehensible, to be sure. But those men—and there are such men, not including yourself—who seek to discredit rape in general, who assume women are pathological liars or that rape is deserved, will tend to discuss the incidence of false accusations. Therefore, when someone tends to take any discussion of rape and turn it into a discussion of false rape accusations, a cloud of suspicion naturally falls on his frequently-male head.

They occur. They need to be dealt with, properly—as was during the Duke case—and promptly—as was not during the Duke case. At the same time, if a woman comes into a police station and reports a rape, a preponderance of chance is on her side. That is, she’s far more like to have been raped than to not have been. So the reflexive assumption that she’s telling the truth is logically valid! Logically valid. Yes, it might be safer to never comment on a case until it was decided, but that would deny a voice to the victims (probable victims) for months, and, in the event of an acquittal, forever.

So it’s not that feminists see “malicious and false accusations of rape” as a nonexistent problem. Instead, they see it as negligible beside the problem of, you know, real rape. And they tend to assume that women who claim to have been raped are telling the truth. And finally, they tend to assume that those who dwell on false accusations are arguing in bad faith. Of course that’s not always justified, but can you blame them?

Erl,
That 8% being negligible or not depends on something - how many of those false accusations are acted upon by law enforcement and how many men are arrested and convicted on those false accusations? What is the race balance on the false accusations? Are they more prevalent in certain parts of the country? In certain social settings? If those 8% of accusations lead to less than .5 percent arrests and no convictions, I’ll agree that it’s negligible. Otherwise, I will call it minor but troubling. See, when you say 2 in 23, I see 1 in less than every 12 is false. As with any crime, I want to see the guilty get punished, but do not want to see innocent lives ruined (or ended). It’s already happened too often.

I didn’t say negligible in general, and I agree—nobody should be punished for a crime they didn’t commit.

I said negligible “beside the problem of, you know, real rape.”

Now, what I mean by that, is a feminist looks at the justice system. They see a world where—assuming false rapes and real rapes are prosecuted and convicted equally, an unwarranted and overreaching assumption—there are two problems. One is that women are a) raped, b) assumed to be liars because they claim to have been raped, c) demonized and insulted for having been raped, and d) denied justice in no small part because of the relevant social stigma and perception of rape as different from other crimes. The other one is that men are wrongfully convicted.

They see that one of these problems happens eleven and a half times as much as the other. (By the way, slight numbers note. 2 for every 23, not 2 IN 23. 2 IN 25. Not that it’s a big deal, but I wanna keep it straight.)

Can you, again, blame them for putting emphasis on the prosecution of rapists? Can you blame them for assuming that a woman making an accusation of rape is telling the truth? Because that’s what we’re talking about here. Not about having a woman come out and say “yes, I was lying,” and the feminist establishment responding with “no you weren’t.” That would be a case of the crazy, not of the mainstream.

And, finally, they see that all too often the people the people responsible for sub-problems b, c, and d of rape justify their actions by talking about the false conviction rate. Which, again, is so much rarer than real rape. So of course the assumption of bad faith occurs. This is not because they hate men, don’t trust men, or whatever. This is because when people (men, but also women) say “yes, yes, rape, but let’s talk about FALSE ACCUSATIONS. Why aren’t we talking about FALSE ACCUSATIONS?” they tend to be talking in bad faith. I’ll repeat that. People who raise this topic tend to actually be talking in bad faith. This is not a feminist delusion.

Can you see where they’re coming from, then?

And one more thing - 8% is, as has been mentioned, the statistic for falsely reported rapes, and it’s close to the false-accusation rate for other crimes. But you’re forgetting the huge number of rapes - very many more than robberies, etc. - that go unreported.

That’s not what the anecdotal evidence shows

Anecdotes ARE NOT “evidence”.  Geeze.