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Next entry: Why conservatives who want more conservative shows won’t get their wish Previous entry: Bamboo Review: Kick-Ass

Invisible female labor

EconomyFeminismFashion

I’ve been thinking a lot about Amanda Hess’s blog post about how women have to walk through this social political maze when it comes to beauty.  She observes something I’ve written about before, about how there’s pressure on women to put forward a lot of effort to be beautiful, but to conceal that effort from men in order to make it seem you were just born that way.  Much of the pressure to conceal comes in the form of jokes about how frivolous and stupid girl stuff is.  Women are mocked for spending time on their bodies, hair, and faces, for having medicine cabinets teeming with products, for being obsessed with clothes and shoes.  But if you decide to react to all these messages about how you’re a bad person for caring about this stuff by not caring about that stuff, you’ll be considered and even worse person, probably a “man-hater”.  Choosing to say no to even a little of it gets the attention of the NY Times, for fuck’s sake. So clearly, the ideal is to do all the work but hide it from men.  But as Amanda points out, you also need to make the effort not to hide it from other women.  If “effortless perfection” looks too effortless to other women, they can start to resent you for it.  It’s a fucked up situation.

The use of jokes to shame women about doing work they can’t opt out of without getting it worse is all over this New York Daily News story.  In horror, the Daily News reports that women spend an average of three years of their lives shopping, and then proceeds to make fun of women for being incapable of finding useful ways to spend our time.  (Hat tip.)

“I think it would be more than three years,” laughed Sandy Mahadeo, 20, a sales clerk from Richmond Hills, lugging a huge bag from Macy’s. “I love everything about shopping.”

“She goes every day!” interrupted her fiancé, Nicholas Ragbir, 20, echoing the belief of many men who feel women spend way more time than that shopping.

 

Ha ha!  I will mock her for working so hard to look good for me! Ah, Sandy.  Stop beating up on yourself and tell your man that if he doesn’t like it, you’ll wear nothing but mom jeans and kitten-bedazzled sweaters, and he’ll shut up.

Respondents said they make an average of 301 shopping trips - which add up to 399 hours and 46 minutes - every year.

“I think that’s really unfortunate,” said Marci Bykat, 31, a Brooklyn potter, suggesting there are more productive ways to spend time. “But it’s true.”

They then imply that 299 of those 301 trips involve searching for the perfect purse.  But if you think it’s fishy to suggest that the average woman goes clothes shopping after work on all but 64 days of the year, you’d be right.  They bury this in the last line of the story.

It isn’t just hunting for accessories or clothing that sucks so much time - each year, women spend nearly 95 hours shopping for groceries, the study showed.

Oh.  In fact, if you read the actual press release, you’ll find that women do in fact go to the grocery store more than to Macy’s.

Women also dedicate 90 shopping trips a year to keeping up appearances - shopping for clothes 30 times, shoes 15 times, accessories 18 times and toiletries 27 times.

So, the purse-hunting is down to 18 times a year, and even then, it’s buried in looking for belts, jewelry, etc.  Considering that you have to wear clothes every day, this doesn’t seem that excessive.  Every time you stop by Threadless, it counts towards this final number of 90.  Clothes shopping edged out grocery shopping in time, but only by a little, which makes sense.  Grocery shopping is less time-consuming, because you know exactly what you’re looking for. 

But let’s be clear.  What this survey showed isn’t that women are frivolous consumption machines who are incapable of enjoying the higher things in life.  (Hell, 31 hours a year are spent shopping for books!)  What this survey showed is something we all already know on some level—-consuming is hard and mostly thankless work, and so it falls on women’s shoulders.  The pollsters certainly thought so.

Buying household essentials and keeping the family fed and clothed means the typical female shops for a staggering 25,184 hours and 53 mins over a period of 63 years.

But even when we’re talking about clothes shopping, is it really evidence towards women’s fundamental stupidity and frivolousness?  I think not.  Performing femininity, as I noted, isn’t really experienced as optional by many women.  For instance, if I’m thinking about how to look before I go to an event where my picture is going to be taken, I usually opt for a full face of make-up, because I’m not unaware of how pictures will show up on the internet, and I’m going to be judged by how I look.  And we’re so used to seeing women with full faces of make-up that not having one will often make people think you look tired or haggard.  (Look at how even the most beautiful women in the world are held up to mockery for looking “ugly” when they don’t wear make-up.)  Clothes, hair, shoes?  Most of the time, if you want to project a “pulled-together” image, much less an attractive one, you have to have a lot of these things, and coordinating them is a lot harder than it is for men.  Which means more trips to the store.  For instance, I try really, really hard to buy mostly shoes that will be flexible with a lot of outfits, but once in awhile, you buy a dress or skirt and nothing goes with it and whoops!  It’s time for another trip to the store. 

What’s depressing to me is that I have to justify this by necessity.  That fashion is pleasurable for many women is why it’s considered “frivolous”, due to the long-standing cultural belief that if a woman is feeling pleasure, something must have gone wrong.  So I look to the cultural pressure to look good to explain why women are stuck in this catch-22, where they’re supposed to shop and pull themselves together, but they’re shamed if they enjoy it.  If there was nothing but pleasure and shame in it, a lot more women would give it up, I think.  That women insist on taking pleasure in clothes shopping while being shamed over it is admirable.  It’s not like the world’s greatest act of bravery to continue applying lipstick after a man snits at you that he prefers “natural” beauty, but it does take self-assurance.  (Or, if you want to move up a level of bitch, echo Dolly Parton in “Steel Magnolias”: “There is no such thing as natural beauty.”)  I admire the courage of women who say no to beauty standards, but I also admire the women who decide to take audacious pleasure in femininity.  Both are rejections of the restraints of femininity, one of the standards themselves, and one of the taboos against women showing their work or taking too much pleasure in it. 

I want to add an observation Marc made when I told him about this survey.  He noted that it was weird not to research men’s shopping habits, and he felt like if you did, you’d find that a shocking amount of men’s time is spent shopping—-especially since they included window shopping.  Men’s shopping, he pointed out, is imagined as interesting and useful and not even really shopping in our culture.  Whereas shoe buying is considered frivolous, reading tech blogs all day as they wank off about this new consumer product or that isn’t treated as evidence that someone is a bimbo.  On the contrary, you’re considered smart for being able to understand all that shit, though it’s not all that more complex to consider the different kinds of processors and memory capabilities on a computer than to consider the difference between fabrics, sizes, cleaning requirements, etc. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:05 AM • (174) Comments

Thank you. God, that article pissed me off, because I knew the second I looked at their numbers that they must be lumping in:

- grocery shopping for households
- buying clothes and school supplies for children
- doing shopping associated with family festivities or observances (Christmas and Eid both have a reputation for being shopping-intensive)

even leaving out that it’s an enormous amount of work in presenting an acceptable female appearance on one’s own behalf. I got mad at my first job that people who caught me shopping for shoes online on my lunch break would make “Tee hee, caught you!” kind of comments like I was slipping out for a nooner or something, when I had been required by my boss to find more formal shoes despite wearing an outlandishly hard-to-find shoe size and having a passel of orthopedic requirements that make buying anything that’s not running shoes hell.

Re: Marc’s comment, I also think it’s interesting that female-gendered consumption seems to be, at least in my observation, more likely to be judged guilty for labor abuses and environmental damage then male-gendered consumption, even though clothing and computers are both likely to be produced in exploitative conditions and are high-turnover products that produce a lot of waste, with bonus heavy metal contamination and mineral wars in Africa on the side of computers.

Comment #1: purpleshoes  on  04/18  at  12:37 PM

I am inspired by the celebrities without makeup results - pale, washed out, contorted, squinting, not looking at the camera - it’s like looking at photos of myself but with better jawlines and cuter hats.  I am also sloppy about leg shaving - I’m lazy and razors are expensive.  And I find that surprisingly large numbers of people really don’t care, but the of the ones that do a fraction are going to make sure, in great detail and large volume, to tell you exactly what they think.  And it only takes a couple of those guys before you want to punch things.

Comment #2: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  12:43 PM

I like how toiletries is lumped in with the “frivolous” keeping up appearances category. Cuz, you know, men just wipe their asses with their hands so they can keep attending to serious matters like fantasy baseball, action movies, and the perpetual itchiness of testicles.

Comment #3: alysia  on  04/18  at  12:44 PM

Let me spill the secret that Marc apparently didn’t want to let you in on.  Men don’t shop.  Seriously, I’m a man, living alone*, and it’s astonishing to me that more people don’t know this.  I go to the refrigerator or pantry, and lo and behold, it’s full of food.  Magic.  Like fucking magnets or something.  Clothes appear in my closet.  Shoes too.  Books and magazines just show up.  And when I needed a new microphone for my computer, I just opened up a drawer and there it was.  Since that’s true, I can only conclude that people (women) who shop do so because they want to, not because they actually need or want the stuff.  Stuff just magically appears.

*It does occur that if I weren’t living alone, this might not work as parody.  For a lot of men in marriages with traditional gender roles (my grandparents, for example) things like food and clothing really did appear as if by magic.

Comment #4: libdevil  on  04/18  at  12:47 PM

ven leaving out that it’s an enormous amount of work in presenting an acceptable female appearance on one’s own behalf.

Fucking hell, no kidding.  Last month I bought a pencil skirt, and I wanted a blouse with French cuffs to go with it.  Grey, blue, stripes, whatever.  But ruffles are in so you can’t find the basics like that without them.  Three stores, each 30-45 minutes away from my house and each other, and at least a half an hour combing through department stores which are organized by brand, which means what you want is probably clustered in kind of the same place but no guarantees.  Finally, I just decided to use the internet and pay for shipping.  But that’s it’s own problem - shopping on the internet takes experience and care, and you’ll waste a lot of time before you start saving it.

Comment #5: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  12:49 PM

I resent all the time I have to spend finding “acceptable” clothes when my husband could basically wear interchangeable polo shirts and khakis/slacks every day at work without an eyebrow being raised. Because I work with mostly women, I actually feel more pressure—there’s judgement if you wear the exact same five outfits every week, so I have to have enough seasonal clothes to mix it up. (when I was working with mostly men, they usually didn’t notice repeating outfits. Irony).

I push at the edges because of this; I own maybe 4 pairs of work shoes, and that only because they wear out, and I tend to wear sweaters or pants juuust until they’re too frayed to be acceptable. But, if I wanted to get ahead at work, I would actually have to drop that and invest in more professional jacket and slacks/skirts combos and better shoes. And probably color my hair, and remember to wear earrings every day. And maybe even wear makeup again.

It’s exhausting and expensive, especially as I could do my job, which doesn’t involve meeting clients, in blue jeans and t-shirts equally well. But that upsets the workplace landscape.

The only exeption would be if I worked in IT, where butch-ness or at least non-femme-performance seems to count against you less, judging by the women I know there.  One of the many reasons I wish I’d been less of a liberal-arts major and pursued an IT career.

Comment #6: emjaybee  on  04/18  at  12:50 PM

Salient point about how men shop - that is, spend money on consumer goods they absolutely do not need - and yet, somehow, don’t have the media finger of blame pointed at them for Wasting Money and Time on Frivolous Pursuits.

Comment #7: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  12:55 PM

The other funny thing that the survey failed to think about, mention, or attempt to quantify, is how much time women spend doing shopping for men.

I’ve shopped with/for probably every guy I’ve dated seriously. Sometimes I’ve just bought them clothes outright. And when they do do the shopping themselves, they usually want me to come with.

I don’t mind, because—frivolous though it may be—I enjoy shopping for men’s clothes and being helpful, but shit, women spend a TON of their shopping time buying things for other people.

Comment #8: m_leblanc  on  04/18  at  01:01 PM

But what about that muscle car with the hemi? And knowing which engine has more horsepower is great, because you can take apart your own engine, just for kicks. You can install your own killer sound system - the sub woofers make the windows shake!

And a big screen TV so large the football players are life size! Which is useful in getting into high-minded discussions about whether that ref was totally biased.

Also you can watch more than 1 game at once, if you spring for the satellite package. You need to see all the games to see how well you are doing in your fantasy league.

And those recliners with a fridge built in them - you save the time to walk to your kitchen.

None of these things are frivolous, unlike you ladies with your shoes and your gossip.

Comment #9: bay of arizona  on  04/18  at  01:01 PM

I want to add an observation Marc made when I told him about this survey.  He noted that it was weird not to research men’s shopping habits, and he felt like if you did, you’d find that a shocking amount of men’s time is spent shopping—-especially since they included window shopping.

But men are shopping for important things like iPods and digital cameras, while women are shopping for silly, frivolous things like food and clothing.  I really don’t understand why you can’t see the vast difference between these two kinds of shopping.

Comment #10: Mnemosyne  on  04/18  at  01:02 PM

It is awfully suspicious that they left out men shopping as a perspective on female shopping. Isn’t the 18-30 year old male market the one that advertisers lust after the hardest? I had been told that that is why such a large amount of television programming sucks so hard. It seems an odd choice for profit-seeking corporations, given that men don’t go shopping.

Comment #11: alysia  on  04/18  at  01:02 PM

Kyso K, I am learning to sew partially in self-defense because I can count on one hand the number of brick-and-mortar shopping trips that haven’t ended with me miserable and stuck with something that will never fit me correctly. (And those were all at small sporting goods stores in a town where it was acceptable to show up for work looking like you had just breezed in from a game of frisbee golf). On the one hand, I like having control over the textiles that cover my nakedness, it’s nice to have a skill, it’s a good outlet for creativity and builds spatial abilities and so forth. On the other hand, it’s kind of a Michael Pollan, do-it-like-your-grandmother-did approach to the social ills of clothing shopping, and I am intensely aware that it’s not exactly side-stepping the Patriarchy to take on more household tasks.

Comment #12: purpleshoes  on  04/18  at  01:07 PM

@ kyso k:

You demonstrate precisely how the industry makes clothes shopping for women an endless task. Styles change so much that anyone without a Standard Fashion Industry Figure (thin, tall, no hips, no tits) can have YEARS in the wilderness where practically nothing in any high-street store fits properly, suits their figure or appeals to their taste. I remember a point in the mid 90s where every single shop had everything in the same limited colour palette of stone, lime green and ... beige. I looked awful and felt uncomfortable in it all and subsequently spent many an afternoon searching every single shop for the odd garment in a colour that didn’t wash me out, clash with my hair etc. Then there was the ultra lowrise pants era, designed to reduce long-waisted me to tears in dressing rooms when even my then skinny body wouldn’t fit into a single pair of pants in most shops and finding a single pair that did fit took multiple shopping trips. If fashion were not predicated on idealised figures and on completely changing women’s styles as much as possible as fast as possible to keep turnover consistant I wouldn’t have had that problem. Right now I can’t find a skirt length I like. It’s all these ridiculously impractical maxi dresses or above-knee froufrou babydoll shit. Both look like ass on me and frankly, most people. Unlike me of old though, this just means I don’t even try to wear skirts or dresses. I don’t spend any time at all running around trying to find the one garment that fits. Fuck the industry, it’s pants until they regain their senses. I have the privilege of saying this due to a lifestyle that does not require me ever to skirt-up for survival purposes. Some don’t and that’s shit.

Comment #13: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  01:14 PM

This thread is going to get derailed so fast, and it’s largely my fault, but here we go - OMGYES!  I hover on the boundary between Plus and Not-Plus sizes, and can assure you they both suck.  The worst was about three years ago when garishly patterned kimono tops were all the rage, and above a size 12 it was practically the only option.  Posters everywhere of happy, airbrushed fat women looking great in these awful tops, and every time I tried one on it made me look like a pregnant woman hiding 5 pounds of potatoes in a 2 pound bra.

It is literally easier to go to the mens section, buy whichever shirt buttons over the boobs, and get it tailored down everywhere else.  However, I’m a student and therefore don’t yet have a personal tailor picked out, and there won’t be room in my apartment for the sewing machine until the roommate leaves.

I despise clothing shopping because I usually know exactly what I want, and that thing should exist, yet for some reason a 15 minute purchase never takes less than an hour, and that’s if the clothing houses have decided that what I want gets to exist that year.  Kudos to women who can train themselves to enjoy that shit.

Comment #14: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  01:27 PM

Isn’t the 18-30 year old male market the one that advertisers lust after the hardest? I had been told that that is why such a large amount of television programming sucks so hard. It seems an odd choice for profit-seeking corporations, given that men don’t go shopping.

I can only imagine that advertisers have to work so hard reaching these guys because their prudence and level-headed frugality make them tough nuts to crack.  That has to be it, right?

Comment #15: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  01:35 PM

Kyso K, part of the problem in the clothing that Normal People Can Afford - and most of plus-sized clothing regardless of price point, from what I hear from people on the other side of the (fairly near to me) no-cotton-for-you cutoff line - is made of crap materials these days, because materials generally cost more than labor and it’s worth it to manufacturers to skimp. I really think the popularity of rayon-cotton tissue knit is what led to the rise of Spanx. (And then there’s the problem of cutting one style for everyone’s body - since I started learning the sewing, I discovered that my problem is that half my torso is an inch shorter than standard clothing and the other half of my torso is an inch longer, and of course nothing fits even if it’s my size, because the vertical alignment is all off.)

The expectation in men’s clothing is that the more money you’re willing to spend, the more the clothing will be remade to fit you. The expectation in women’s clothing is that the more money you can spend, the more you’re supposed to remake yourself to fit the clothing. It makes me crazy. I really wonder if this dynamic is precisely because men’s tailoring is, historically, a profession and taken seriously, where sewing for women fell primarily into the category of unpaid, low-status labor in the home.

Comment #16: purpleshoes  on  04/18  at  01:36 PM

You know, I want to like clothing shopping.  I really, really do, because I do generally enjoy most of the trappings of femininity.  But, like kyso, I’m on that boundary between just a bit too big for the non-plus sizes and just a bit too small for the plus sized clothes, plus I’m tall and shaped like a slightly bottom heavy hourglass.  And while buying clothes can be fun, it is usually frustrating to the point of tears because things like pants that fit or a simple, knee length, dark brown A-line skirt or sandals that are comfortable and yet still look nice with a skirt and that come in the size I need for my giant feet, are simple requests and should, in principle, be relatively easy to find, but it’s just so damn impossible.

And back on topic, I do most of the shopping for my family.  I do almost all of the grocery shopping, buy all clothes, shoes, etc., for the kids and myself, and buy a lot of other odds and ends as well.  The husband buys his own clothes, because I refuse to do it, and he’ll gladly shop for “manly” things that come from the hardware store or Best Buy.  He also will do random pick ups of things we need from the grocery store and such, but still, I do the vast majority of all the shopping and probably 80% of it is for the family as a whole or someone other than me.

Comment #17: ks  on  04/18  at  01:44 PM

I hate shopping for clothes with a passion, and I’ve never learned how to use makeup.

I think this has a big part of why I headed into the kind of career where you mostly simply don’t HAVE to wear “smart clothes” - not every day, not just to go t owork .It’s considered perfectly acceptable for me to show up in jeans, t-shirt, and jersey top, five days a week - I do own one smart suit for those occasions where you actually want to wear something that ISN’t jeans - and taking trouble to “dress for work” is something that in my line of work is a two-edged sword: sure, you get the usual points for looking “effortlessly attractive” - but you can also lose points in the “oh you’re a GURL, you won’t understand this” game.

Basically, Wearing The Right Clothes is a game that I long ago worked out I couldn’t win. I mean literally seriously I can’t. I’m too tall and too fat to look good in conventionally feminine clothing: attempting to look good and failing just makes you look worse: buying expensively made-to-fit clothing is something I have just never been able to afford: as well as the factor on top of that oif being the only woman doing a “technical job” in a mostly-male department or team, that means if you take the trouble to look good you win and you lose simultaneously. (The best tester I knew at my last job, was a young woman who dressed for success - and all the guys in her department were spreading nasty gossip about how she was having an affair with the department head, precisely because she looked good.)

It is a lot simpler just to go into a men’s shop and pay for much-cheaper and much-better-quality wear and look “casual” ... and of course this means you don’t get taken seriously on yet another level.

Comment #18: Jesurgislac  on  04/18  at  01:54 PM

She observes something I’ve written about before, about how there’s pressure on women to put forward a lot of effort to be beautiful, but to conceal that effort from men in order to make it seem you were just born that way.

And, boy howdy, do some men have temper tantrums when they find out that you’re NOT just born that way.

I had the misfortune of dating one such in college.  It didn’t last long - three weeks? - because he turned out to be so painfully oblivious.  One afternoon, before heading out for something or other, I pulled out my lipstick, and he said “Oh, don’t.  You’re SO much prettier without any makeup!”  Which was a stupid statement, because he’d never seen me without makeup. (I used to be a bit of a minimalist, just powder, mascara, a little blush, lipstick.)  So I told him to hold on a sec, went off to the bathroom, and washed my face.

The whining about how he felt “deceived” was phenomenal.  I told him to hit the road.

Comment #19: MaggieB  on  04/18  at  02:14 PM

The snark on this thread is fantastic.  Top notch effort.  libdevil @ #4 deserves an internets or two.  “Magic.  Like fucking magnets or something.”

Comment #20: themann1086  on  04/18  at  02:24 PM

@ KS

I have the same problem. I am 5’10” and where a size 12 shoe, which basically doesn’t exist. I rarely ever go shopping without having to have a good long cry afterwords. I think this is why “women and their shopping…” type jokes really really get to me.

Comment #21: alysia  on  04/18  at  02:24 PM

Yes about being expected to look a certain way (designer clothes/shoes, beauty-shopped hair, designer bags, expensive jewelry) in corporate settings, even if your pay doesn’t even remotely approach covering the costs associated with looking that way. 

Women that I’ve worked with, who I knew for a fact were making much the same salary as I was, would have Louis Vuitton bags, Gucci shoes, designer clothes, manicured nails, you name it.  I could only conclude that they were getting into massive amounts of debt to obtain all of these things, which of course is yet another thing to be ashamed for.  And if you finally get into too much debt and have to declare bankruptcy, who’s going to feel the slightest bit of compassion for you, because you “wasted” all of your money on looking good?

It’s a lose-lose game, and I refuse to play it.

Comment #22: Rumblelizard  on  04/18  at  02:25 PM

I has having dinner with some friends, all girls, and they started talking about how their boyfriends don’t know that: they dye their hair, that facial hair or nipple hair does exist in women and they have it and remove it, that they go twice a month to have done something to their cellulite, and many others.  A lot of work and money.  They said “there are some things a partner doesn’t need to know”, with a knowing smile, but I saw fear there (they wouldn’t admit it).  I don’t perform feminity so much, and I don’t understand their game that insisting, among good friends and without any man around, that it doesn’t piss them off the least to work so much in their “effortless beauty” and to keep talking about that enthusiastically.  If I say what I really think, that I don’t like it and I’d rather not do much of it, I get a lot of harsh comments from them.  If I fake it and go with their conversation I feel awful afterwards.

@MaggieB yes!, I know too many men who are convinced that the minimal-looking make-up is no make-up at all

Comment #23: proserpina  on  04/18  at  02:36 PM

alysia, you may already know this, but you know how to get around a lot of problems with sizes and quality? Buy men’s clothing. Especially for ‘casual’ clothes like shirts or shoes. 

persek - sounds like your “friends” are very threatened by the idea that you are capable of living differently than they do without being miserable.

And what MaggieB said @19. I always laughed at the guys who would be furious if they found out (or suspected) that a particular favorite stripper had breast implants. Never mind that there’s no such thing in Nature as a woman who has no discernable body fat except in her breasts, or that the normal female breast doesn’t defy gravity. They wanted a look that only comes with surgery but were angry angry angry if somebody rubbed their nose in that fact.

Comment #24: mythago  on  04/18  at  02:44 PM

alysia, I see you a size 12 and raise you a size 12 narrow and no option to wear heels. I admit to harboring violent thoughts towards people who see me on Zappos and think I’m engaging in Lighthearted Female Fun instead of, you know, a painful fight to the death with footwear.

Comment #25: purpleshoes  on  04/18  at  03:26 PM

The whining about how he felt “deceived” was phenomenal.  I told him to hit the road.

It was your own fault for bragging so much about how you don’t wear makeup, you lying harpie.  Wait?  You didn’t?  Oh, then. 

I’m semi-hiding a crap ton of acne scars, so I have foundation, concealer and powder on every day, and it doesn’t stay pristine all day so I look a lot better in the morning than the evening, and of course I reapply if I go out.  But the only makeup the guys I work with seem to see is eye makeup.  If I want to be assumed as going natural, I just have to skip the eyeshadow (ha, ha, just kidding - there’s a a simple seven step procedure for “natural” eyes, featuring just a mere three shades of eyeshadow, highlighter optional).

And if I’m doing all that work, hell yeah I’m having fun with it.  Cat’s-eye retro eye makeup in metallic blue on Monday morning if I want, dammit.

Comment #26: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  03:26 PM

Right now I can’t find a skirt length I like. It’s all these ridiculously impractical maxi dresses or above-knee froufrou babydoll shit.

I’m in roughly the same boat.  I much prefer hems that hit somewhere between just below the knee and tea length, but I’m having a hell of a time finding such things.  Even Torrid, my usual go-to for dresses, has only above the knee stuff right now.  It seems to be in for us fat chicks to show off our legs?

I needed dresses, though, so I bought a couple cute cocktail dresses, and wore one the other night when I took my son and his girlfriend to the theater.  My not-quite 18 year-old son WHISTLED at me!  Can’t complain too much when your teenager looks at your fluffy self in a short skirt and declares you hot, I guess.

It was awfully breezy, though.

Comment #27: MaggieB  on  04/18  at  03:40 PM

Just have to pop in here to this thread to tell you ladies who hate shopping to try out a lot of the catalog/online sites. I shop mainly from Chadwicks/MetroStyle/NewportNews/Speigel. There’s a range of clothes from conservative to trendy and many of the styles ranging from 2-20 and there’s a large selection of Women’s sizes, too.

I also enjoy shopping at QVC and HSN. Was a time when most everything on the shopping channels was gross ugly and tacky but believe or not they actually have cute, fashion-forward stuff now. But what’s appealing about a lot of the shopping network stuff is because they have to appeal to such a wide audience, most their clothes are appropriate for most figure types, from petite to full-figured.

OK, popping back out now. Continue!

Comment #28: Vacuumslayer  on  04/18  at  03:45 PM

I think the same sort of thing happens with breast implants/plastic surgery in general. Women are supposed to have huge tits, but if you get implants you are a horrible wannabe barbie (not that I think women should get implants, just that they shouldn’t have to and you can’t blame someone for wanting it). The naturally large breasted are to be celebrated and the rest should just live with their shame in silence. The same goes for dieting—you need to eat pizza and drink beer to be fun, but absolutely no fatties!

Comment #29: alysia  on  04/18  at  03:48 PM

Catalog shopping only works well if you have a good idea how a certain brand fits you, and if that brand is consistent, though.  And even then….I can’t buy jeans online, for instance.  Jeans are so hinky that you can’t even try one pair on, say it fits, and buy another just like it.  You have to try every fucking pair on.  And have “fat days” ones and “skinny days” ones.  I’m liking NYC because wearing skirts and dresses all the time is 100% acceptable here, which means the “which jeans fit today” emotional shitstorm of having to get dressed is optional.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/18  at  03:51 PM

And if I’m doing all that work, hell yeah I’m having fun with it.  Cat’s-eye retro eye makeup in metallic blue on Monday morning if I want, dammit.

Sing it, sistah!

I gave up minimalism a long time ago, and I’m quite in love with dramatic eye makeup.  My (now) husband once remarked “You don’t need to wear that for me”, and was quite shocked to hear “I don’t wear it for YOU.” in response.  It had never occurred to him that some women actually like makeup.

Comment #31: MaggieB  on  04/18  at  03:57 PM

alysia:  Same here.  I turned it into a game where I harass smarmy shoe sales guys:  “Do you carry anything in a size for me?”

I know I spend more time than that grocery shopping, but I like food, so I spend time reading labels and make extra trips to get fresh vegetables.

Comment #32: Crissa  on  04/18  at  04:00 PM

Amanda, it’s not just jeans. I’ve bought multiple pairs of the same pants of the rack to find that each was slightly different. I know others who’ve had the same experience with other garments - skirts, blouses etc.

Btw, I actually found a pair of jeans that fit me perfectly this weekend and I’m still in shock. First pair in two years that didn’t either cause a sausage-casing thigh effect, give me crotch droop or have my buttcrack fall out the back or be six inches too long and no, I don’t know anyone who can do jeans tailoring. All this from a cheap high street shop too.

As a UK 16 (US 12?) cheaper shops are pretty much my only option anyway, bar M&S;which lately has been really, reallyy good about flattering designs and colours in a wide range of sizes, styles and price-points. Most shops don’t really seem to want my money even when I’m willing to fork over large amounts of it. I’m not plus-sized but I may as well be if I want to shop in posh shops. Have we all noticed how the higher up the so-called quality/expense chain we go, the more ‘fatties’ need not apply?  I just saw an article about how the owner of Jigsaw, a UK top brand, is a OMGWHATTHEHELLFATSORRYCURVY UK size 16 like me and still doesn’t really cater much to her own size in her own bloody shops!

Comment #33: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  04:09 PM

Seconding the sewing thing - if you have the skills, time and resources, you can make clothes that fit better and are higher quality for less money than you’d have to pay for ready-to-wear.  And you can (within the limits of your skill) create clothes in shapes, styles, and colours that you like.

In my own experience, sewing has increased my spatial reasoning skills - I blew my father-in-law’s mind by being able to figure out the shape to cut a piece of laminate flooring to fit a tricky corner.  He turned to my husband and said, “She’s smart!” in a really surprised tone of voice.  Yeah, thanks.

Comment #34: KristinMH  on  04/18  at  04:15 PM

Well, since no one on this thread so far seems to like shopping, I’ll go first and say I LOVE shopping.  Seriously, there is almost nothing I would rather do.  It’s a creative outlet for me, because I love creating my own personal style out of vintage clothes, current fashions, and cool one of a kind shit made by local designers.  And that’s just the clothes - I also love puttering around record stores and book stores for at least half an hour at a time.

Yeah, if you totalled up all my shopping time, it would be a lot - but so what?  How is that more “a waste of time” than zoning out on the couch and watching American Idol?

Also, many of my boyfriends have shopped A LOT, but they don’t really consider it shopping, because they’re doing something serious like comparing the features on electronics.  Which of course they don’t really NEED, any more than I need a new pair of shoes, but whatever…

Comment #35: nico  on  04/18  at  04:15 PM

Men don’t shop. ...  Clothes appear in my closet.  Shoes too.

Libdevil, I know you were making a joke, but this is something that HORRIFIES me. 

My mother buys all my stepfather’s clothes*.  It’s possible that he needs to be included when it comes to shoes, but my guess is that she probably has to be there, too, and probably does a lot of the legwork.  And I know that other women buy all their husbands’ (and sometimes sons’!) clothes, too. 

I really hope this is a vestige of old school pre-second-wave shit, because damn if I am EVER going to do that.  Once you’re old enough to have a credit card in your own name, you buy your own goddamn clothes, sorry.

*Weird thing: my father handles his shit himself.  Totally OT and probably an overshare, but it fascinates me how my parents’ marriage (70s - 90s) was relatively egalitarian, whereas my mom’s second marriage (she remarried in 2001, if I recall correctly) is a total Mad Men throwback.

Comment #36: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  04:18 PM

Styles change so much that anyone without a Standard Fashion Industry Figure (thin, tall, no hips, no tits) can have YEARS in the wilderness where practically nothing in any high-street store fits properly, suits their figure or appeals to their taste.

This is why thrift shopping is key.  Even though some of the hipper places curate their inventory to feature things that are currently in style (as opposed to the Salvation Army where they put out anything and everything), usually you have a wide choice of colors, fabrics, and styles.

Comment #37: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  04:24 PM

alysia, you may already know this, but you know how to get around a lot of problems with sizes and quality? Buy men’s clothing. Especially for ‘casual’ clothes like shirts or shoes.

But here’s the thing—what if us hard to fit women with big feet want to have feminine clothes.  I’m tall and a bit heavy and have giant feet and I don’t want to wear men’s clothes.  I want pretty shoes and skirts and dresses and all of that, and trust me, it isn’t going to be found in the men’s department.  And it isn’t like I come in an uncommon size—except for the height, a lot of women are more or less the same size as me.

Comment #38: ks  on  04/18  at  04:25 PM

Styles change so much that anyone without a Standard Fashion Industry Figure (thin, tall, no hips, no tits) can have YEARS in the wilderness where practically nothing in any high-street store fits properly, suits their figure or appeals to their taste.

As someone who actually is practically as thin as a model and has no tits (my AA bras are slightly big on me), I assure you that clothes are not made for my body type either. I have never, ever, ever been able to find clothes that fit properly, and this thread’s many descriptions of crying in frustration in the dressing room ring very, very, very true to me. And good luck trying to find a work wardrobe with this body type; actual adult work clothes hang off me and make me look like a child playing dress-up in my mommy’s clothes, while buying clothes that fit slightly better (but still not great) from the juniors department doesn’t exactly make me look like a mature professional either.

Comment #39: Lauren O  on  04/18  at  04:32 PM

As a 6’ 300 lb linebacker-bodied butch who wears 13EE shoes, I figured out a long time ago that any amount of time spent on prissy femme garbage was time (and money) wasted.  I have no need to impress anyone; I am me, either take me or leave me.  I don’t wear makeup.  I don’t dye my hair.  I don’t shave my legs.  I own exactly 3 pairs of shoes, no more & no less- and none of them are “fashionable.”  I would sooner gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon than go clothes shopping; having to deal with sneering anorexic salesbots (in stores that don’t carry my size anyway) is something I don’t tolerate very well.  I wear something until it falls apart, then spend the least amount of time possible searching for a replacement.  I don’t care one bit about fashion- I’m all about COMFORT.  As long as it covers me to the point I’m not gonna get arrested for public indecency (and it’s comfortable), I don’t care what it looks like.  If someone has a problem with that, tough shit.

Comment #40: Zephira, Queen of the Space Weasels  on  04/18  at  04:34 PM

I go everywhere sans makeup.  Not because it is some statement against the machine but because ever since puberty my skin absolutely rejects makeup.  The sight of makeup will make my skin break out much less slathering it on my face.

But I’m happy I’m a New Yorker in this regard.  A lot of women here ignore makeup, much more than the fashion rags admit.

Comment #41: Melponeme_k  on  04/18  at  04:34 PM

@ Lauren O - I don’t think anyone but professional fit models (the people whose job it is to be measured by clothing companies in order to create the patterns and sizes) can just waltz into a store and buy pretty much whatever with no stress. 

Well, maybe if you are absolutely devoid of any aesthetic sensibility and shop only to fulfill the human need to cover the body against the elements.  But women in our culture are raised specifically not to be like that (and most men don’t succeed at it, either). 

I’ve stopped feeling bad about the fact that grooming and clothing myself is a chore.  I refuse to feel like there is something wrong with my body because it sprouts hair, breaks out, expands and/or contracts, and wasn’t built to Banana Republic’s specifications.  Fuck it.

Comment #42: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  04:39 PM

Opponax, not really. Not when you’re a tricky size/shape and have to look a certain way at the office. I used to be able to shop successfully in charity shops when I was a very skinny student. Tiny vintage stuff fit. Designer stuff, which only comes in small sizes, remember, fit and was actually affordable. Now? I’m older, lumpier, plain old bigger and I’m shit out of luck. Most anything interesting is too damn small. Anything my size is either worn out, just not my style, not my colour or if it is my style and colour, not my size and it’s all priced so as I may as well just buy something new from a cheaper high-street store. Maybe it’s different in the USA, but here, charity shop shopping is something I only do for books. It’s an exercise in complete pointlessness for clothes and offers far less choice than a normal store as far as I’m concerned.

Comment #43: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  04:40 PM

having to deal with sneering anorexic salesbots

I find shopping to be an irritating chore as much as the next person, but there’s no need to be insulting.  I’m neither sneering nor anorexic, but I had to work retail jobs to make ends meet all through college (and have no illusions that I won’t find myself back there eventually).  For the most part, we’re just trying to do our jobs and move on, just like anyone else.  I’ve left toxic sales situations where the whole staff (or worse, the management) were haughty and shallow and hated anyone else who wasn’t the same - but by and large retail sales people are trying to do their jobs and pay their bills just like anyone else.

Comment #44: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  04:46 PM

Lauren, I get that the skinny have issues with fit and styling too. I’m just going on my own experience of going from skinny teen and 20-something to ‘fat’ (not even plus size, just at the high end of ‘normal’ sizing!) 30-something and finding the problems in finding clothes that fit just increased exponentially in a way I had never, ever imagined as a skinny person. Until I gained weight, it just did not occur to me that things could get worse than they already were in terms of dressing room trauma or lack of wearable styles. Believe me when I say they do.

Comment #45: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  04:50 PM

I’m yet another who’s on the cusp between misses’ and women’s sizes.  Here is what I do:

1.  Most of my regular clothes are from the Salvation Army.  I’ve found many things that I like and that fit there.

2.  Macy’s women’s section.  Believe it or not, they actually have some nice stuff, particularly in their house brands (Style & Co. and JM).  I watch the sales, use my Star Rewards discounts, and stock up twice a year.

3.  When all else fails, I make my own.  Just finished a nice skirt from a Guatemalan ikat, and will be making another in the near future.  I watch the sale racks and go yard saling, too.

4.  A non-chain shoe store may be able to find shoes for the hard to fit.  The only brands that don’t make my feet hurt are Clark’s, Naturalizer, and Easy Spirit. 

5.  Bargain outlets.  Yes, they often sell last year’s styles, but unless you’re an ultra-hip fashionista, who cares?

I plan out what I need in advance and go in like I’m making a commando raid, and I do it maybe 5-6 times per year.  The rest of the time I shop for books or groceries….

Comment #46: Ellid  on  04/18  at  04:58 PM

killerrobot - I find a lot of the basic “high street brand” clothes in thrift stores.  If you can fit clothes at Old Navy or Ann Taylor in the mall, you can fit them in thrift stores, with the added bonus of having a wide variety of seasons and styles all in one place.  Some stores (especially the more hoity-toity places) carry a narrow range of sizes, but I wear a size 8 and often find that most things I like are too big for me in the more down to earth thrift shops. 

It’s probably not a great place to shop if you wear a very obscure size, because you’re at the mercy of the people who donate or trade in or whatever.  But I’ve found a lot of good things in thrift shops when regular stores all seemed to carry crap that looked terrible on me.  And I am by no means teensy tiny - I wear very average sizes in most clothes.

Comment #47: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  04:59 PM

I am also sloppy about leg shaving - I’m lazy and razors are expensive.  And I find that surprisingly large numbers of people really don’t care, but the of the ones that do a fraction are going to make sure, in great detail and large volume, to tell you exactly what they think.
Comment 2—Kyso K

As with so much else (primarily in politics), I wonder how much people are conflating loud complaining with widespread—how much a few people kvetching a lot is seen as a lot of people kvetching.

I mean, I don’t pay enough attention to women’s legs to even know if they’re shaved or not, it’s certainly not something I ever remember knowing (even, sometimes, when I’ve been explicitly told; even, occasionally, with a tactile as well as visual inspection). So even if I wanted to have a preference, I couldn’t. I suspect that’s the default. But oone or two people vociferously complaining is a lot more noticeable

And, boy howdy, do some men have temper tantrums when they find out that you’re NOT just born that way.
Comment 19—MaggieB

I almost hate to ask, but what must he have done when he saw someone fist thing in the morning, either right after or even before she woke up? Even if you didn’t spend the night with him (assuming you didn’t) someone must have.

if you have the skills, time and resources, you can make clothes that fit better and are higher quality for less money than you’d have to pay for ready-to-wear.
Comment 34—KristinMH

“Time” is the key word here. You’re paying for the labor as well as the materials; if you spend time sewing you could spend doing something you like doing more, the benefit is lessened a bit.

Comment #48: Hershele Ostropoler  on  04/18  at  05:03 PM

BTW: Women’s shoes. What’s with the toe boxes on those things? It’s like they think women don’t have toes. We do. Really.

Comment #49: shannon  on  04/18  at  05:07 PM

I mean, I don’t pay enough attention to women’s legs to even know if they’re shaved or not, it’s certainly not something I ever remember knowing (even, sometimes, when I’ve been explicitly told; even, occasionally, with a tactile as well as visual inspection). So even if I wanted to have a preference, I couldn’t. I suspect that’s the default. But oone or two people vociferously complaining is a lot more noticeable

The weird thing, in terms of body hair, is that the only people in my life who have EVER made a stink about it are my family - especially my brothers and my mom.  I now shave if I’m going to visit them in the summer.  And aside from occasional maintenance for comfort purposes (socks tugging at my ankle hairs, armpit hair inching down past the sleeves of my t-shirts), that’s really the only time I ever shave.

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  05:09 PM

@ shannon, #49:

I just bought my first pair of Doc Martens since I was a teenager—oh my god, my toes actually get to move around!  It’s a unisex dream come true, I tell you.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  05:11 PM

This seems connected: a book about how the author and her partner gave up shopping (sorta) for a year:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/18/857551/-ECSTASY:-Not-Buying-It!

Here’s another stop to shopping: freecycle.org—you can either advertise about shomething you want to give away (free) or for something you need (and others in your city/town/country) might be willing to giveaway for free.

I’m all sorts of weird sizes, and I actually prefer thrift stores, the range is always interesting, as long as you ignore size tags, and try on everything that looks like it might fit.

Also works, if this season’s colors, styles at the mall don’t work for you: you’ll have a range of seasons and stylings to choose from.

And then there’s ebay: I wear a 5 1/2 which just doesn’t turn up much in each shoe store, and yeah, I’m tired of sales clerks who don’t want to be bothered with me.  So I go to the local Nordstrom’s which stocks more often, try on, and then order the same thing cheaper from ebay.

Also: it ain’t just men slut shaming for wearing makeup: I got a couple huffy comments from the makeup shaming brigade on this blog during an earlier diary about cosmetics, although I made it clear that I wore makeup because at 48 and now at 60, it held off the ageists at work, by basically helping me look like my younger self.

Comment #52: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  05:12 PM

Until I gained weight, it just did not occur to me that things could get worse than they already were in terms of dressing room trauma or lack of wearable styles. Believe me when I say they do.

Yo, I have actually been fired from a job partially for reasons related to this issue. I don’t think it could get much worse than that. Maybe if I get a boob job, being skinny will help me find work clothes that fit. Until then, I am inclined to believe that factory-produced clothing does not fit me any better than it fits anyone else.

Comment #53: Lauren O  on  04/18  at  05:16 PM

As for English “charity shops” that don’t carry other than the small sizes: that may be in the ritzy neighborhoods, but you might find different at a Salvation Army in a more middle class area.

Nordstrom’s department store prides itself on carry the otherwise unlikely shoe sizes for women: hie yourself there, but if you don’t like the prices, then search for the same thing online.

Comment #54: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  05:21 PM

As for QVC and HSN, yes they tend to carry a very, very wide range of sizes, andyes the quality of their clothing has improve, but the prices have also gone up, so check out their merchandise on ebay (which will be from a couple seasons earlier, and much cheaper.)

Comment #55: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  05:28 PM

At 60 I’m insistent on shoes that are comfortable, no way I’m breaking a hip for 5-inch heels.

But you’ll also find uggs that have room in the toe box, crocs (and no I don’t by the ugly clog version), Sofft brand is even more stylish, yet very comfy (except for some of their highest heels.)

Comment #56: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  05:33 PM

With this sucky economy, my current job is for Major Clothing Inc.  A few weeks ago a male customer comes in and spends $60 on a couple pairs of shorts for himself.  About 15 minutes later, he returns to the register with his wife so she can make her purchase.  She spends $90 and he proceeds to gloat about how much more economical he is as a shopper and basically trying to make her feel like some frivolous bitch.  The look on her face was heartbreaking and I wanted to punch him in the balls. 

Oh, did I mention that every single item she purchased was for their kids and not anything for herself?

He was an asshole, no doubt, but he was merely reflecting our cultural understanding about women and shopping that this article reinforces.  The fact that women do the bulk of household shopping and probably spend no more time on personal shopping than do men is irrelevant to this narrative.  Women at all time should feel guilty for being frivolous and daring to think they should be allowed to care about themselves (even if doing so is conforming to the beauty standard).

Comment #57: history_mom  on  04/18  at  05:34 PM

We have Gabriel Brothers around here, which is a few steps up the distribution line from thrift stores, and they get regular shipments of clothes from ritzier stores.  And it’s always the small ones, sizes 2 through 6 that are way overstocked.  I always assumed it was because even the ritzy stores didn’t have as many size 0 customers as their designers would want, and the 8 - 16’s are off the shelf at retail prices so there’s never any in overstock.  Just like I have a common shoe size, so I frequently find stores don’t have any of a certain shoe left in my size.

Comment #58: Kyso K  on  04/18  at  05:39 PM

It’s not that they don’t carry stuff in some larger sizes. It’s that they don’t carry enough - and especially not of the high quality garments - to the point where there’s actually less real choice than in a normal shop. I live in an area with a metric bloody fuckton of charity shops from the upscale ones that only take designer clothes and charge a fortune for them to the more down-at-heel ones. Both types I’ve found are mostly useless to me in terms of clothing purchases.

Lauren, I am not attempting to tell you that you don’t have problems finding clothes because you’re skinny. Everyone has problems with fit because we all have different body types regardless of weight and build. I am telling you that from my personal experience as a skinny to fat woman that those problems increased even more when I gained weight and I really didn’t anticipate that. I have also been the victim of an utterly humiliating lecture at work in the past (when I first gained weight and had no idea how to dress for it) for not having a certain item of clothing fit right*, so I sympathize with that too. I am not bagging on you for being thin; I am not saying you do not experience problems with finding clothes or prejudice pertaining to that - I am saying that *in my experienc*e, the more you deviate from the fashion industry ideal of the slender female figure, the less choice and more problems you tend to have in finding appropriate flattering clothing.

Comment #59: killerrobot  on  04/18  at  05:46 PM

The naturally large breasted are to be celebrated and the rest should just live with their shame in silence.

As someone who “developed” quite early and has been a 36D for about 20 years, uh, no.  Unless “celebrated” means having strangers hoot at you on the street when you wear a tank top and having the boys in your algebra class sexually harass you because big boobs must mean that you’re a slut.

Breasts aren’t celebrated unless they’re created surgically because those celebrated breasts are only possible to get through surgery.  Everyone with natural breasts, large and small, gets the short end of the stick.

Comment #60: Mnemosyne  on  04/18  at  06:00 PM

And it’s always the small ones, sizes 2 through 6 that are way overstocked.  I always assumed it was because even the ritzy stores didn’t have as many size 0 customers as their designers would want, and the 8 - 16’s are off the shelf at retail prices so there’s never any in overstock.
As I said above, all through college I worked in retail.  One of my jobs was at this obnoxious designer-wannabe chain which sold extremely overpriced clothing in ridiculous size ranges.  I was very thin at the time, but I wore a size 10 in their clothing (I think I wore a 4 or a 6 at most other stores, back then?).  The largest size they carried was a 12.  On the sales floor, they wanted us to have several items on the rack between 0-8, and only a few 10’s and 12’s.  The clearance rack at the back was basically ALL tiny sizes, while we sold out of the “larger” sizes very quickly.  There was also a heavy reliance of only 1 or 2 colorways, often colors that very few people can wear well, like acidic yellow-green.

Our clientele was mostly upper middle class and wealthy women who, while they tended not to be obese, were by no means microscopic or anything.  I personally got a lot of complaints from people outside the extremely narrow target body type that there was nothing in the store that fit them.  And, again, these were well-off “fashion forward” women, people who should have been our target market.

Never understood this business model, At All.  It was like the store was designed to make women feel inferior rather than to sell clothing and thus make money.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  06:04 PM

Ah, yes, dudes who prefer “natural” beauty.  It’s been said before, but 99 out of 100 guys have NO IDEA when a woman is wearing makeup.  What they usually mean is that they don’t like OBVIOUS makeup - like bright lipstick and colored eyeshadow - but if you go out without ANY they’ll tell you that you look “tired” or ask if you’re sick.
The makeup I wear is pretty minimal and natural-looking, but it’s occured to me before that this kind of makeup is actually more insidious than the flashier kind - it’s the perfect example of invisible female labor, because it’s so ubiquitous and so subtle that women are now just expected to look like that naturally.
I’ve wondered if I should rebel by not wearing any, but frankly I can’t stand being told I look “tired” six times a day.

Comment #62: nico  on  04/18  at  06:05 PM

Yes, I agree that there’s less range to choose from in the larger sizes in thrift stores: however, in my (gotten ritzier) neighborhood Lane Bryant has been phased out, Forever 21 doesn’t bother to carry the larger sizes, nor do even the department stores.

Even Ross discount stores have way cute stuff for the smaller sizes and name brands, but tacky, cheap material and ugly in the larger sizes.

So I actually do better at the local thrift stores, than in the local stores in my area.

Comment #63: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  06:05 PM

Ugh, sorry for the horrid formatting up there…

Comment #64: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  06:09 PM

And all that is just for the clothing/makeup that the world at large might see. I recently had to lecture a dudely friend on the subject of fancy underwear.

Him: “but…but doesn’t it make you feel, you know, like a woman?”
Me: “The boobs do that just fine on their own, actually.”

He seemed genuinely chagrined. Maybe he’s bought a lot of lacy underthings for ladies in his time, who knows…

Comment #65: Well, what?  on  04/18  at  06:14 PM

Something I’m trying to learn in order to not get so frustrated with shopping and clothing issues is that a store doesn’t really need to have a fuck-ton of things I love, look good in, fit me well, etc.  I don’t need to personally identify with their brand, or go into throes of ecstasy every time I pass the place. 

Obviously, a store that doesn’t have anything that works for you is to be ignored in favor of a store that does work for you. 

But I’m over feeling inferior because 90% of the store is skinny jeans.  I didn’t come here to buy everything in the store, I came here to buy 1 thing.  As long as I find my one thing, everything else could be size 0 acid green jeggings, for all I care.

Comment #66: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  06:15 PM

That’s another reason I started wearing makeup in my ‘40s: being told I looked sick or tired, without it.

No less the sin of appearing to be old.

Comment #67: judybrowni  on  04/18  at  06:19 PM

The Opoponax, @ 51:

I just bought my first pair of Doc Martens since I was a teenager—oh my god, my toes actually get to move around!  It’s a unisex dream come true, I tell you.


Seconded! I love my DMs so much. I hardly ever wear anything else.

I’m lucky: I’m an academic, so no-one really cares what I’ve got on my feet (or, for that matter, whether I wear any make-up. So I don’t bother). My commute also involves several miles’ walk per day, so I’d probably crippled by now if I wore heels…

As to the thread topic: I love shopping - for books. Clothes shopping bores me senseless, alas, so I try to do it as little as possible.

Comment #68: Nic_C  on  04/18  at  06:22 PM

Without makeup and fussing with my hair, I look like the improbable love child of Jay Leno and Sam Kinison.  Once I get my face on and my hair straightened out, I look like a super-fat Drew Barrymore.  Yeah, I got your “natural beauty” right here.

I’m a women’s US size 30.  In order to find a piece of clothing large enough to fit me, I have to plan a day trip to the nearest Catherine’s ten miles away so I can walk in there and hopefully find that one piece of clothing in my size under $50.  You know, I’m gonna get a lot of “beggars can’t be choosers” if I complain about how shitty Catherine’s clothing looks, but fuck it, it’s dowdy fugly polyester shit that nobody should have to resort to.

If I’m not going out, I wear pajamas all day long because I don’t have enough actual clothing to last the week.

Just sewing my own clothing isn’t an option because I can’t afford the specialty sewing patterns made for size fat, let alone the extra yardage of fabric.  And fuck it, I don’t want to take on more unpaid labor.  I don’t think that’s hard to understand.  I don’t want to grow my own food, sew my own clothing, or bake my own bread.  If I were a man, nobody would bat an eye at that.

Comment #69: Godless Heathen  on  04/18  at  06:25 PM

Can I pile on to reinforce Amanda’s second-to-last paragraph?  Yes, we’re all under social pressure to do all this appearance stuff, etc etc.  But it’s also maddening that some activities that go beyond the purely functional are acceptable or even respectable kinds of pleasure, but things like fashion are ‘frivolous’. Stuff like watching sports, restoring cars, buying fancy tech products are fine, right? (And coded as male, though plenty of women do them.)  There are plenty of gender-neutral non-frivolous activities, like maybe traveling or going to music concerts or something.  So it’s not like people really get judged for everything they do that’s not 100% productive and functional.  But I have a sneaking suspicion that if we were to make a Venn diagram of “pleasurable leisure-time activities” and “things that are seen as feminine,” the space where those two combine would be labeled “frivolous wastes of time,” like make-up or clothes shopping.  You can enjoy stuff as long as it’s not girly, and you can do girly stuff as long as you hate it and it’s a chore.  But god forbid you actually find some enjoyment in that girly shit, because if you do you must be an empty-headed waste of space.

(Hoping the sarcasm came through in the last bit there!  TBH I see no reason why fashion should be any less a valid arena for pleasure and self-expression than cooking, or music, or writing video games.)

Comment #70: ladybronwyn  on  04/18  at  06:54 PM

here are plenty of gender-neutral non-frivolous activities, like maybe traveling or going to music concerts or something.  So it’s not like people really get judged for everything they do that’s not 100% productive and functional.

Maybe I just know a lot of joyless assholes, but as someone who prioritizes travel, it’s surprising how often I’m shamed about how “frivolous” it is to “waste money” traveling when I could be doing something else more sensible with my savings.  Even among people who think nothing of spending what I would on an overseas flight on a handbag or a couple pairs of shoes.

Comment #71: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  07:08 PM

Then again, I don’t know anyone who thinks that wanting to travel makes one an “empty-headed waste of space”.  So I suppose it would be worse if I were into makeup.

Comment #72: The Opoponax  on  04/18  at  07:10 PM

I’ve been feeling this lately.  I was able to go through my youth as a student keeping that pleasant, sexist illusion that women don’t HAVE to be obsessed with clothes and appearances, it’s just a choice.  But now that I’m trying to appear grown-up and get a job/career and such… I’ve realized, the truth is you really do have to be obsessed with how you look in order to fit the cultural proscriptions of how a woman should look.  And for most jobs, you don’t get to choose if you want to fit those proscriptions.  And for a lot of the better jobs, you then stack on the (infuriatingly vague, for women) requirements to look “professional,” while still looking good but not slutty but not frumpy either.  And then men have the nerve to act like it’s just natural for women to put all this effort into how they look, or even be offended that they don’t get as much room for ” personal expression ” in their appearances….!

I’ve been feeling this pressure in a stressful way, but really, I’m lucky.  I have a pretty average body type (around size 10, no unusual proportions, boobs that can fill out most things without looking “trashy”), so shopping is frustrating but not impossible.  I live in Seattle, which is a really casual city as far as fashion expectations go.  I’ve never been given grief for not wearing makeup, though again I am lucky to have long eyelashes and a complexion that’s clear without interference.

But… yeah, the invisibility drives me nuts.  Guys will act pretty surprised if you point out to them that there are girls that find the task of dressing up to look like a “pretty” girl just as daunting as they would.  That skill at fashion and makeup does not actually come naturally to all of us, and we resent the time and money we are expected to spend to look acceptable.  I spent about half a day preparing for the last interview I had, and I was complaining to my dad about how stressful it was, and how a guy could just shave and put on their one nice suit and business shoes and be done.  I don’t think it would have gotten through to him if it had been anyone talking but me - we’re very similar people, and he KNOWS I’m not one to obsess about looks at all.  Though he usually laughs off my feminist addresses, I think it actually gave him insight into the kind of unfairness and pressures women are subjected to in those situations.

Comment #73: Jennifer S.  on  04/18  at  07:21 PM

@ #60

I wasn’t trying to imply that their is no downside to having big boobs, I am a (natural) D-cup myself. I know that there is gawking and harassment and saggyness and all the rest, but there is also the ideal that women should have large breast and a lot of shaming to women who would get implants. And as a late bloomer, I know that men treat you differently and you have different privileges with bigger tits.

Comment #74: alysia  on  04/18  at  07:22 PM

I listen to quite a lot of comedy music—Dr. Demento type of stuff—and as a result I’ve become familiar with one particular artist, Kip Addotta. I’d never found his humor to be especially interesting—his “Wet Dream In The Gulf Stream” is moderately amusing if you like cascades of fish puns—but most of it is either mediocre or just plain misguided (two routines in particular, one called “The Frolic Room” and another about a threesome that I can’t remember the title of, seem to be based on the “but wait, I’m a man…” theme). Upshot is, the guy gets a bit tiresome after a while.

Anyway, he has a lot of… babblings… on his website, and one is on the subject of shopping. In it, he claims that “shopping” is a euphemism for “going out to cheat on you”, going so far as to claim that if a guy tells a woman he’s going shopping she’ll get insanely jealous and intrusive.

Needless to say, his politics lean rather conservative…

Comment #75: BrianX  on  04/18  at  07:28 PM

I almost hate to ask, but what must he have done when he saw someone fist thing in the morning, either right after or even before she woke up? Even if you didn’t spend the night with him (assuming you didn’t) someone must have.

I pity the poor woman who eventually had to train/beat his idiocy out of him.

We never got to the “sleep over” stage - and really, I think I dodged me a bullet there.  I’m grateful for my pickiness.

Comment #76: MaggieB  on  04/18  at  08:08 PM

People often think I’m unspeakably strange because I’m a young woman who doesn’t really give a damn about clothes, fashion, or jewelry, and I consider clothes shopping to be a form of torture.

Comment #77: Sadie Morrison  on  04/18  at  08:16 PM

Well, since no one on this thread so far seems to like shopping, I’ll go first and say I LOVE shopping.  Seriously, there is almost nothing I would rather do.

Depends on the shopping.  I adore shopping for food and housewares.  Turn me loose anywhere near dishes and flatware, and you can’t drag me out for love or money.  Makeup shopping, too, is always great fun for me - for one, there’s a cute fella at Sephora who always remembers that I love Urban Decay, and will cheerfully park me in the chair and put all sorts of new things on me to see how I like them.  He earns his commissions, no doubt about it.

Clothes shopping, on the other hand, is such an exercise in sheer frustration that I want to sit down on the floor and tear my hair out strand by strand.  I really hate it.  It’s a pain in the ass to find pretty clothes that make me happy, so I don’t shop for clothes unless I have to.  I’m self-employed, so I can stick to my wardrobe of funky-cute jammies most of the time, and save myself a lot of headaches.

I’ve recently started taking my son clothes shopping with me.  He has a knack for finding things that look good on me.  I will be a sad muppet when he runs off to culinary school next year.

Comment #78: MaggieB  on  04/18  at  08:32 PM

i must say, the whole ” ’ which jeans fit today’ emotional shitstorm” has ruined my mood many a time before work, a date, anything. it’s amazing. i’m nearly six feet, so of course it takes significant time and effort to find a decent pair. when i switched to wearing dresses and skirts all the time, though, friends and even minor acquaintances somehow found it was okay to make jokes about how “girly” i am. or how i was some sort of slut for wearing short skirts. the fact that it’s rather obvious i’m a bit of a giant, which means the occasional skirt looks skimpy, is apparently my fault.

i enjoy clothes. i really do. i just wish the rest of the world wasn’t so prepared to yell at me about any and every aspect of my relationship with the clothes. and as for the shopping, i wouldn’t need to go so often if they made clothing last longer. planned obsolescence in terms of fashion or function means i have to go to the store and get more panty hose, a new button-down where the buttons stay on, a new dress without a rip, etc. or something that looks like i didn’t buy it ten years ago.

Comment #79: thefeistysweetheart  on  04/18  at  08:32 PM

Godless Heathen wrote: <quote> You know, I’m gonna get a lot of “beggars can’t be choosers” if I complain about how shitty Catherine’s clothing looks, but fuck it, it’s dowdy fugly polyester shit that nobody should have to resort to. </quote>

Yeah, except you’re not a beggar, you’re a *customer*, paying your own hard-earned money for what they’re selling.  Fuck yeah, you should have a choice.

Comment #80: A.  on  04/18  at  08:39 PM

Yeah, except you’re not a beggar, you’re a *customer*, paying your own hard-earned money for what they’re selling.

Ha, actually…I’m pretty sure our culture does, in fact, consider the customer a beggar.

Comment #81: Well, what?  on  04/18  at  08:43 PM

Lucy and Desi managed to point out these conundrums all the time on I Love Lucy, and do it with era-appropriate—and much more respectful—humor.

Who will produce this century’s equivalent to their Star Trek?

Comment #82: Yamara  on  04/18  at  08:46 PM

“The naturally large breasted are to be celebrated….”

or, not.  As breasts without implants tend to droop.

“And as a late bloomer, I know that men treat you differently and you have different privileges with bigger tits. “

You know, dealing with the crap that’s get’s thrown at you for having breasts - large or otherwise - at age 30 is not the same thing as dealing with that same crap at age 10.  The “privileges” of having bigger boobs at age 20 are not the same as the “privileges” of having big boobs at age 12.

I get that for you, after having to deal with being shamed for quite the opposite, it might have been a bit of a relief to be worthy of catcalls.  But, for me - and likely many other early bloomers -  having gotten my first catcalls (and worse) - usually from boys and men much older than me - when I was not yet even technically a teenager, the attention strangers pay to my breasts will never feel anything other than threatening.

Comment #83: jennygadget  on  04/18  at  08:49 PM

G*d how I used to love shopping. Zabar’s, Gourmet Garage, the freezer room at the uptown Fairway (now there’s man shopping: a room you have to put on a coat to go into, with 25 and 50-pound hunks of beef and pig racked up), the hardware and surplus stores on Canal St. Sometimes J and I would just wander through Dean&Deluca;gazing at the museum-quality fruits and vegetables. Now we have to make do with catalog porn.

But since I’m a guy, none of that counts as shopping. It’s research, or stocking up for Important Projects, or cultural anthropology. And if you’re a guy, being a gourmet cook is a sign of deep philosophical stature rather than a frivolous waste of time…

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that one of the reasons for this is the “male gaze”. If you’re a guy, virtually everything you do outside work is a form of shopping: all the things and people in the world, after all, are there for you to look at and judge: “yeah, I’d buy that”, “nope, don’t want that”, “love to do her”, “wouldn’t want to get near her”, “that’s a cool/stupid suit/car/building/dress/neck/burger/drink”. So it’s pretty natural that women would be accused of shopping as a frivolous activity, because even a whole 5 percent of their time judging stuff and deciding whether to buy it or not is too much.

Comment #84: paul  on  04/18  at  09:01 PM

wow. Paul for the win.

Comment #85: Well, what?  on  04/18  at  09:09 PM

amen, paul.

that point, and amanda’s post, takes me back to the awesome “dude rock” post at tiger beatdown this week. truly, the only shopping i really love is for books. sometimes the only thing i know about a city are the bookstores i’ve heard about, and so i make it my mission to visit them. of course, that and grocery store visits are not what people pay attention to when they talk about women shopping. it’s really frustrating how whatever men do, be it food like you said, or gadgets, or music, or books, is made to seem serious and intelligent, and the word “shopping” just doesn’t appear. it’s gourmet. it’s culture.  but when it comes to women, the study is just determined to say “women shop so much and are so frivolous. please don’t pay attention to how she stopped by the grocery store to get her boyfriend medicine or her mom flowers or donuts for work. and don’t pay attention to when she shops for music and books. and if we have to well, isn’t it darn cute? she thinks she’s smart. she wants to be a chef. she has opinions about music. how adorable. and now, please go try on some shoes so we can feel superior”.

Comment #86: thefeistysweetheart  on  04/18  at  09:09 PM

My mother doesn’t weark make up or fancy clothes and has natural grey hair.  But she’s not much of a feminist.  My father has always (since I can remember, at least) made occasional scornful remarks on how ugly and unkempt she can be, but also has always ridiculed as frivolous any attempt at meeting the beauty standards.  And also complains about how much time she spends shopping when it is her who buys his clothes (and even shoes!), and are clothes that are sometimes hard to find.  I wish she had the guts to divorce him, but she can’t, because she works for him and she doesn’t work legally, and it would be difficult to find work at her age.  Ok, I’m getting angry.

Comment #87: proserpina  on  04/18  at  09:12 PM

as someone who prioritizes travel, it’s surprising how often I’m shamed about how “frivolous” it is to “waste money” traveling when I could be doing something else more sensible with my savings.  Even among people who think nothing of spending what I would on an overseas flight on a handbag or a couple pairs of shoes.
Comment 71—The Opoponax

I think it’s more that whatever you do is judged frivolous, because a woman is doing it. If you bought handbags, people would say “why are you wasting money on that when you could be travelling?”

Comment #88: Hershele Ostropoler  on  04/18  at  09:22 PM

Yes, we’re all under social pressure to do all this appearance stuff, etc etc.  But it’s also maddening that some activities that go beyond the purely functional are acceptable or even respectable kinds of pleasure, but things like fashion are ‘frivolous’. Stuff like watching sports, restoring cars, buying fancy tech products are fine, right?

Well, the difference is that restoring cars is somewhat of a creative act. One of the things I realized was that in the midst of a lot of work I had to do, I lost track of the other things going on in my life and the only outlet I had was essentially consumptive: the only interesting things going on involved stuff I was going to purchase. And that’s no way to live, whether it’s fashion or gadgets. It’s actually one of the drawbacks of the iPhone and iPad: they don’t help people Create anything new: they just serve as a platform for people to consume applications. So yeah, there’s a reason shopping is seen as a “frivolous” pleasure, even when it’s unfair.

But this is one of the advantage men have with fashion—styles have remained relatively static over the past 100 years, with only a few tweaks along the way. Odds are that a man’s business attire will remain relatively in fashion over the course of his entire lifetime. Since business clothes are essentially a uniform that demonstrates servitude—things you wear when interviewing for a job, dealing with your upper-level superiors, or begging for investment money/sales—we don’t have to spend our lives paying a “clothing fee” every year for the purpose of being able to do our jobs. Thankfully, though, it looks like business casual is becoming the norm for most white collar professionals.

Comment #89: Tyro  on  04/18  at  09:27 PM

he fact that it’s rather obvious i’m a bit of a giant, which means the occasional skirt looks skimpy, is apparently my fault.

Seriously.  I’m pretty tall myself and yeah, sometimes skirts are short.  It’s a function of the length of the leg and the fact that it’s damned difficult to get anything made long enough for my almost 6 feet tall, 35 inch inseam self.  Most things are made for shorter people than me and well, tough luck if you don’t want to look at my legs in summer, because I really dislike pants (horribly uncomfortable, even besides the fact that they are never long enough) and as soon as it gets warm enough, I break out the skirts and dresses. 

Nobody really says anything much to me these days, but back in the day, I used to rock the babydoll dresses a lot and got to hear all sorts of crap about how my skirts were too short and how much of a slut was I to show so much leg.

Comment #90: ks  on  04/18  at  09:31 PM

“Well, the difference is that restoring cars is somewhat of a creative act.”

Whereas painting a new face twice a day or choosing what colors and textures to put on a moving piece of performance art, eh, that’s not creative at all.

I think you’re right, Tyro, about the gizmos: with relatively few exceptions (some of the people who write code for them) they’re a cognitive sink rather than a source. (Albeit this differs from a lot of previous-generation macho shopping areas: cameras were always supposedly about making great images, hifis about creating the perfect sound, or at least perfect enough to get laid…)

Comment #91: paul  on  04/18  at  09:49 PM

Whereas painting a new face twice a day or choosing what colors and textures to put on a moving piece of performance art, eh, that’s not creative at all.

Of course not, unless it’s a dude doing it. David Bowie’s face and hair = Art. Lady Gaga’s face and hair = target of tabloid ridicule. 

Or just Paul again FTW.

Comment #92: Well, what?  on  04/18  at  09:52 PM

Ks-
Nothing drives the point home that you are freakishly tall like going shopping with a shorter friend. What is a dress on them is a tunic on you. It really, really depresses and infuriates me.

Comment #93: lemur  on  04/18  at  09:59 PM

I get that for you, after having to deal with being shamed for quite the opposite, it might have been a bit of a relief to be worthy of catcalls.  But, for me - and likely many other early bloomers - having gotten my first catcalls (and worse) - usually from boys and men much older than me - when I was not yet even technically a teenager, the attention strangers pay to my breasts will never feel anything other than threatening.

I was going to reply to #74, and then jennygadget said exactly what I wanted to say.  When your nickname from ages 11 to 15 is “Jugs,” it’s hard to see what “privileges” I was receiving by having large breasts.  And if they came later in my life, I missed out on those, too, because it was a lot safer to be fat than it was to have big tits.

(And that’s probably going to start up a whole other shitstorm since I know that not everyone chooses to be fat, but I did, because I couldn’t deal with the constant harassment.  So sue me.)

Comment #94: Mnemosyne  on  04/18  at  10:06 PM

I just want to say I didn’t mean to start a boob war, and I know for sure that those who feel the duty to publicly judge a woman’s breast will find fault no matter what. The point i was making is that woman who get breast implants do so to meet societal expectations, and then are judged by society for trying to meet said expectations. Just like how women are expected to never age, but judged for getting botox. you are supposed to not age naturally or just accept that you are a failure of womanity without trying to alter it.

Comment #95: alysia  on  04/18  at  10:12 PM

The problem with the breast conversation is the term “big.” “Big” breasts to #74 might mean a large B or C, or maaaaaaaybe a small D (but I doubt it.) Any larger than that, and big breasts (without benefit of surgery) are just as unacceptable as small ones.

Moreover, very large breasts mean you code as “fat” regardless of the rest of your body, so you get to add in all that wonderful fat hatred that our culture loves so, so much, in addition to the general slut-shaming and “oh my but large breasts are just so TRASHY. So LOW CLASS and SLOPPY.”

Comment #96: Well, what?  on  04/18  at  10:16 PM

wow, yeah, the male gaze idea of paul’s is right on. The whole world is an oyster served up for men to accept or reject. Not frivolous at all, just their due. This makes everything make so much sense now.
Thanks.

Comment #97: Shiny  on  04/18  at  10:18 PM

Paul, so right on…

Comment #98: teabea  on  04/18  at  10:25 PM

I’ve chosen fairly actively to embrace a lot of things that get coded as feminine, and I will still say that learning this stuff is a bizarre and frustrating experience.  Makeup isn’t just a problem of finding colours that suit, but learning to apply, learning which brands are worth the price, learning what your skin will tolerate, and what it won’t—and what cleansers and moisturizers have to be layered underneath.  It’s a skill, and unless you learn young, you have to be willing to waste a lot of money experimenting.  Even when you do know, every season the tints change, and everything but the absolute basics has to be re-selected.

Clothes, for me, are worse, and I actually like clothes.  I like textiles in general—I play with fabrics, threads and yarns as a hobby.  I like the textures and the colours and the different ways base materials can be manipulated.  But shopping for clothes is torturous because I know full well going in that anything nice will be overpriced, the construction on cheap stuff is usually shoddy, and the cuts are never flattering.  I still do it because there are lots of things I don’t want to spend my time making, but I know it’ll take me three to four hours of work combing through the racks and trying things on before I find something that suits me, fits, and doesn’t cost half my spare cash.

My first year roommate seemed almost inhuman to me because, even with the kind of close-up sharing a double room brings, she seemed to know all this stuff by instinct.  She had ten million photos of herself looking gorgeous, she claimed it was totally comfortable to sleep in her makeup (which, okay, ick, I’d get sick if I tried), and she had the perfect outfit for every occasion, the sum total of which took up less space in her dresser drawers than my pajamas did in mine.  It made no sense.  It was like rooming with someone off Desperate Housewives: the College Years.  I still haven’t figured out how she did it.  For that matter, I still haven’t figured out the group-think that meant every other girl on my floor (including the international students) wore tank tops and cotton bottoms for the slumber party, when I knew damn well I was not the only girl who thought pajama bottoms were invented by someone with a fetish for midnight wedgies, and so owned only nightgowns.  And yet this roommate thought it was so weird that I knew how to mend a fallen hem.

Comment #99: fluffster  on  04/18  at  11:03 PM

Ha, actually…I’m pretty sure our culture does, in fact, consider the customer a beggar.

The fat customer especially.  How dare I have a body that doesn’t conform to their need to have only 1 fit model from which they base their clothing.  The nerve, I should just wear a potato sack until I die!  A polyester potato sack, with a hideous floral print.

*sigh* I’m gonna go stare longingly at the Beth Ditto domino dress they have at Evans and cry because I’m too big for plus sizes.

Comment #100: Godless Heathen  on  04/18  at  11:04 PM

Reading this thread, I have just started to wonder if the fact that I wore khakis, an oxford shirt, and docs to work every day has anything to do with the fact that I’m now unemployed.  I mean half of my still-employed colleagues wore the exact same thing, but…thinking back, yup, it was the half with penises.

Comment #101: A.  on  04/18  at  11:35 PM

Ugh. Just bought bras tonight, since I’ve needed new bras for months now and just finally managed to get myself to the store.

I think buying a bra is almost worse than buying jeans, at least for me. I’ve always been on the busty side, so bras have never been optional. And I’ve gained weight in the last couple years, so I had to try them on to figure what size I’m up to now, and which brands are fitting best these days, since they all change. Oh ugh ugh double ugh. There are few places I hate more than fluorescent-lit changing rooms.

Once I found a size, I bought four bras in different styles to try on later. I’ll return at least two later this week. It’s a mild inconvenience, but better for my mental health.

Comment #102: Phoebe Fay  on  04/19  at  12:00 AM

You know, we have the technology to custom-tailor clothing for people in sixty minutes or less: full-body scanners to measure the body, computer-aided pattern drafting, fabric printing (putting the tracing lines on the fabric?), automatic cutting—a few machine seams, some hemming, and five minutes of fiddly work putting in zippers and buttons, and you’d have a pair of jeans that fit you in both the waist and the butt, or a button-down shirt where the buttons are actually placed properly, or a suit jacket that manages to fit both your shoulders and your hips, or a skirt that actually hits you just above the knee where the fashion magazines tell you it’s supposed to fall, or (and this will be the Killer App) a bra that actually accounts for four variables (rib cage circumference, breast volume, underwire length, and between-breast span) instead of the two-variable (rib cage circumference and overall bust measurement) system we have now. 

And yes, it would cost more (especially at first), and it would first come to the big urban centers and take several years to trickle down to mid-size cities (and probably a couple of decades to be as widespread as Wal-Mart).  And yeah, those of us who are privileged enough to a) afford it and b) live in/travel to New York/LA/DC/Chicago/Atlanta would become even more privileged for a time.  But it would mean that for the first time since the 1950s a non-trivial portion of the female population could get 90% of their clothes shopping done in an hour several times a year. Say, 2-4 % of women. Twenty years ago, less than 1% of Americans had Internet access.

So why hasn’t a venture capitalist started a line of technotailors? I’m not sure.

Comment #103: Maureen  on  04/19  at  12:05 AM

Maureen @103, I too am baffled that there isn’t more custom clothing. When I was a teenager, I got bathing suits at a store where you picked out the fabric and style you wanted (bikini, one-piece, whatever), stood in front of a scanner, and then in a few days you came back and picked up a bathing suit that fit you perfectly and cost the same as retail - because, of course, the store didn’t need to stock ready-made. Nowadays I can order salwar kameez from India for about what I would pay for a shirt and jeans here; you pick out the fabric, you send them your measurements and you get a gorgeous outfit back.

Also, somewhat superfluously, what Paul said.

Anyone who has spent five minutes playing video games would get the idea that shopping is primarily a male activity. Players will spend hours and hours of their time and money (sometimes real-world money too) to get the ‘right’ look for their avatar, or to make sure everything is colored with rare dyes. But that’s different.

Comment #104: mythago  on  04/19  at  12:29 AM

So why hasn’t a venture capitalist started a line of technotailors? I’m not sure.

Shoes.  Shoes will be first.

Comment #105: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/19  at  12:47 AM

The fat customer especially.  How dare I have a body that doesn’t conform to their need to have only 1 fit model from which they base their clothing.  The nerve, I should just wear a potato sack until I die!  A polyester potato sack, with a hideous floral print.

On the other hand, I found life to be somewhat simpler when I was somewhat limited to Avenue, Lane Bryant, and Target plus size racks.  Now that I wear the most common sizes, I not only find them out of stock more often than not but I don’t even know where to start shopping ... or if this store’s petites are really one size smaller, etc.

Bra shopping is a fucking nightmare, too.  At least more places carry 38DD, but too few manufactures seem to understand that a true DD bra NEVER has only two hooks and the same side coverage as a C cup.

Comment #106: Ms Kate  on  04/19  at  01:03 AM

Mythago @ 104 - wait, they had this already and it’s not universal?  WHY, UNIVERSE, WHY?

I’ve considered going the eShakti/Amazon salwar kameez route before, but the stuff on eShakti doesn’t really fit my aesthetic and while I love salwar kameez, they’re not yet acceptable courtroom attire in U.S. courtrooms.  (Hopefully global warming will influence American courts to adopt some of the sartorial standards of our sister Common Law jurisdictions.)

Comment #107: Maureen  on  04/19  at  01:20 AM

It is possible to order custom-sewn-to-your-measurements blue jeans, also sewn in India: http://www.makeyourownjeans.com/  Despite the implications of the URL, you are not expected to actually make them: you choose the style, rise, fabric, etc., and send in your measurements. They are not cheap, especially with shipping, but they are not outrageously expensive, either.

Comment #108: Naomi  on  04/19  at  01:32 AM

...Although, if you’re looking for courtroom attire the jeans will not work any better than a salwar kameez. However, the makeyourownjeans people also do dress pants, jackets, shirts, etc., and if you have something you like that’s wearing out (or that you want to have in a selection of colors) they will make copies.

Comment #109: Naomi  on  04/19  at  01:35 AM

I couldn’t imagine not shopping for my own things. I thought this was something people learned after asking Santa for, say, Killy Mcstabbington III for Playstation and a pair of wicked bad Docs, and instead recieving Lawn Bowls 1996 for SNES and a pair of running shoes under the tree isntead. Not that it’s all horribly decadent capitalist filth anyway, but even the parasitic bourgeois deserve to have choices (can’t you just tell I’m a snarky prole?). Plus, I’m quite fond of clothes shopping, and even coating my face so it doesn’t look out of place in a morgue/Halloween mask shop. But that’s definitely more frivolous than the usual reason makeup is used.

@ Paul: OK, I can gather that as a male I’m privileged enough to internally judge what I observe by individual/societal standards. Trouble is, what should be neutralised and which should remain? People are always going to have their preferences. Still, I realise even expressing my attraction is far more of an imposition than a compliment. Maybe implementing government-mandated grey coveralls that must be worn at all times will be a step towards enlightenment, instead of a step towards totalitarianism.

Comment #110: DarkDecapodian  on  04/19  at  02:04 AM

How does all of this clothing-magically-made-in-India stay cheap? Same way as the big retailers do it?

Comment #111: Bagelsan  on  04/19  at  02:15 AM

Honestly I’d be stoked to wear grey coveralls every day smile

Mmmm, comfy!

Comment #112: teabea  on  04/19  at  02:20 AM

It depends on the shade of gray and the construction of the coverall. Also, are accessories allowed?

Comment #113: Maureen  on  04/19  at  02:43 AM

alysia,  I do agree with your last post, and the part of your initial post on the subject that was just simply about that, and I think that it was a good point to make, and I’m glad that you made it.

I wasn’t annoyed/pissed because you were trying to claim your pain was equal to or greater than mine - I’m not interested in oppression olympics; the patriarchy hurts us all.  I was initially just a little annoyed that your marred such a good point with such a (imho) stupid and beside the point comment.

and THEN I got extremely pissed when I read your later comment; as I usually do when people talk about big breasts resulting in positive attention as if this is true for every girl or woman who has big breasts.  Because even when the attention I get now could be remotely construed as “positive” it’s still usually rather triggering for the borderline (and occasionally arguably crossed-the-line) sexual abuse I received as an early bloomer.  It’s one thing to talk about breast sizes and harassment with regards to women, it’s another to bring fairly young children into the mix (which you did with your response to Mnemosyne) and not consider how that changes the dynamic of sexual harassment.  That’s a completely different level of silencing someone else’s pain.

I think that’s as an important point to make as well.

Also, what Well, What? said.

And Mnemosyne, I think I pretty much convinced myself that I *was* fat in high school (when I was really just large breasted while not skinny to slightly bigger than “average”) in large part because hiding behind roomy shirts was sooooo much easier than any other alternative I could come up with at the time, so I generally looked the part.  (the doctors that were obsessed with my BMI did not help either)

***********

And lastly, I have to join in the Paul love.

And on the topic of d00ds assuming that the world is there for you to judge, my brother does this thing where he states that he dislikes something.  Completely out of the blue.  Just because it’s in his field of vision.  And 9 times out of 10 it’s something that is actually marketed to women or girls.  Or just happens to be something some woman is wearing.  I got into an insanely huge fight with him last time he visited about something that Disney is doing that is marketed to little girls.  And he tried to hide behind it being a bad influence on them (which has some truth to it, bc hey, it’s Disney), but the contempt for anything that is super feminine - and therefore not even remotely meant for him at all - was clearly hiding behind his annoyance.  And I called him on it.  He kept trying to move the goalposts, but I was having none of it.  This is one of the few Nice Guy type things he still does and I swear to god I am going to break him of this habit if it kills us both.  (at least, break him of doing it while he’s around me, in any case)

Comment #114: jennygadget  on  04/19  at  02:46 AM

or, not.  As breasts without implants tend to droop.

Actually, not necessarily. Doing literal push ups prevents this.

Comment #115: scratchy888  on  04/19  at  02:54 AM

@ Paul: OK, I can gather that as a male I’m privileged enough to internally judge what I observe by individual/societal standards. Trouble is, what should be neutralised and which should remain? People are always going to have their preferences. Still, I realise even expressing my attraction is far more of an imposition than a compliment. Maybe implementing government-mandated grey coveralls that must be worn at all times will be a step towards enlightenment, instead of a step towards totalitarianism.

I’m not really sure what you mean here.  Compliments are generally nice, in the appropriate context and without qualifiers.  Telling a date “you look nice” or “those are cute glasses” or whatever is just being nice, unless you’re secretly saying it to indoctrinate your date into pleasing you.  And you’re right that people can’t avoid expressing their preferences when they state that they like or dislike some aspect of another person’s behavior or appearance.

When someone says “you look really nice, not sloppy like those vegan granola chicks” on a date though, that someone is moving a lot closer to indoctrination.  And when someone comes into a thread on beauty standards on a feminist blog and says “yeah, I hate skinny chicks” or “yeah, I hate women that fuss about body hair,” it detracts from the conversation about the bigger issue, and just serves to make the women who you described feel worse.

I’m (explicitly) not talking about anything you’ve said, DarkDecapodian, but you seem to be expressing frustration at the perception that saying something nice about a particular woman or a class of people can be received negatively in some contexts.  And I know for me, as a guy, it’s sometimes hard to step back and realize it’s not about me in some contexts.  There have been threads, here and elsewhere, about beauty standards, and guys came in to agree that Beauty Standard X was bad, and people who observe or fit that beauty standard are in fact unattractive.  And those guys kind of expect to be praised for bucking the system, and are hurt (and sometimes get angry) when they’re told they’re being jerks for piling on women who, by choice or not, fit a conventional beauty standard.

Similarly, in a private context, guys can sometimes rag on other women, in an effort to compliment the woman they’re talking to.  The granola chick “compliment” I used above.

Again, I was just trying to answer what seemed to be your question, to my best guess.  I don’t want to derail this thread, as it’s been a really interesting discussion of the bind women are in to look good, but not appear to want to look good, and how the system’s rigged to make even doing it right really hard.  I don’t have a lot to add, other than “yeah that looks like it sucks, and yet again I’m lucky to be a guy and have almost everything working in my favor.”

Comment #116: Ferox  on  04/19  at  02:54 AM

I’m wondering also how much of this has to do with past historical perceptions related to fashion and its role in history?

From a few European history classes I took in high school and college, one theme I recall clearly was that one way Louis XIV undermined the nobility’s independent power was to encourage greater fashion consciousness among the nobility at Versailles with the rapid fashion changes so said nobles not only have no spare funds to build up independent power bases, but also to cause them to go deeply in debt and thus, make them more beholden to the King and his central government. 

Any resident European/French historians to agree/disagree/expand on this?

Comment #117: exholt  on  04/19  at  03:46 AM

You can do “lateral push ups”—or any other exercise you like—until the cows come home, but your natural breasts will droop no matter, big or small,  as you age (and they already droop fechingly in a natural manner, no matter your age, compared to the plastic.)

As a middle-aged woman, who has seen the breasts of other middle-aged women, natural or not, I’m kinda an authority on this.

Also knew an art director who in trying to get a photo for a magazine cover of a chocolate covered breast (don’t ask) of a woman lying down, who finally gave up on even teenage models because the natural droop in natural breasts didn’t give the shot she needed.

Finally, a transexual model was hired whose breasts stood up firmly off her chest because of the implants.

Comment #118: judybrowni  on  04/19  at  04:25 AM

@ Ferox: Looking at that jumbled platter of word salad, I’m not entirely sure what I intended to express either. The closest sentiment I can come to is that, after thinking about it for far too long, I can’t help but wonder whether any personal standards of attraction are, even at their most benign, at the core unfair and oppressive. Even expressing an opinion could contribute to a woman’s low self esteem if she didn’t fit the mould described. And if she did happen to fit the criteria personally, as an observer, what right do I have to approve of or feel good about it? I suppose, in a way, I almost fit the mindset of the same men you describe, but instead of forcing women to abandon social beauty standard, I believe that the path to absolution means revoking one’s own desires as much as possible. Thing is, it isn’t, or at least is very hard to do. So I guess my opinion amounts to futile zealotry, but it could be a much worse kind of futile zealotry (hey there, Freddy Phelps!).

Tl;dr: Angst with angst topping.

Comment #119: DarkDecapodian  on  04/19  at  04:43 AM

What a useless factoid!!!  Unless it’s contrasted against how long MEN do their shopping, what’s the point?

It’s useless on many other layers too, but I gotta hit the hay…....

If “shopping” is code for “frivolous activity”, maybe it should be contrasted with “watching sports on tv”.  Feh.

Comment #120: Eric_RoM  on  04/19  at  05:03 AM

You can do “lateral push ups”—or any other exercise you like—until the cows come home, but your natural breasts will droop no matter, big or small, as you age (and they already droop fechingly in a natural manner, no matter your age, compared to the plastic.)

I’m 41, and so far no signs of drooping.

Comment #121: scratchy888  on  04/19  at  05:07 AM

“Actually, not necessarily. Doing literal push ups prevents this. “

scratchy, as you have not seen my breasts, I suggest you shut the fuck up as to whether or not their sagginess (or lack thereof) is in any way a result of my not putting enough effort into making them pleasantly perky for anyone - whether by means of surgery or exercise.

MY breasts have sagged from the moment I got them.  Being a discus thrower rather than a soccer player would not have prevented this.

(asshole)

“I’m 41, and so far no signs of drooping. “

Kindly speak for your own damn self then, and not for all of womankind.

(asshole)

Comment #122: jennygadget  on  04/19  at  05:36 AM

I know it’s a sidetrack and has already been said, but OH YES I would love to spend less time shopping for clothes and shoes. It only takes ages because the clothes all suck so much. In a better climate, I’d joyously give up on clothes entirely and daub myself with mud and woad.

During the Great Trouser Drought of 2008, when by royal decree no pair of trousers or jeans could have more than three centimetres vertical distance between hip and waist, I went round every shop in a huge city centre looking for something to wear on my lower half. I utterly failed to find trousers or jeans that fit, and by “fit” I do not mean “matched the contours of my body attractively” but “went on and stayed up”. I resorted to buying drawstring trousers a size too big, which looked daft and caught in my bicycle wheels, but luckily I’m an academic so nobody gives a shit if I dress like a clown that’s been attacked by oily Jack Russell terriers. Fuck knows what I’d have done if I had to look smart or if I already wore the largest size available.

Commenters who sew - how much work is it and how much practise do you need before you can make things worth wearing? I reckon I might enjoy that - it looks like a pleasing mix of art and applied geometry.

Comment #123: MissPrism  on  04/19  at  05:43 AM

HI Jenny Gadget, whatsup?

Comment #124: scratchy888  on  04/19  at  06:51 AM

Scratchy, I’m sure you don’t mean it, but I agree with jennygadget that you were sounding like a presumptuous, smug git with your MY BOOBS IS GRATE! YORES CAN BE TOOOO! and I suspect that is whatsup.

Comment #125: MissPrism  on  04/19  at  06:59 AM

I’m sorry, that came out nastier than I intended. But in a thread about how much work women are supposed to do on our looks, the suggestion that if only women worked harder, they’d keep their looks, might have been predicted to set some backs up.

Comment #126: MissPrism  on  04/19  at  07:20 AM

what do you guys think as far as tattoo’d make up goes? On the one hand it makes makeup more of the norm in more places than is now the case, on the other hand, less work after the first (painful) application.

I fall on the against, but we had a long discussion on another board I frequent and I have new appreciation for the other sides arguments.

Comment #127: Leah Jaclyn  on  04/19  at  09:08 AM

Yeah, it should be obvious by comment 120 in a thread on female maintenance that all of us are too busy/exhausted from constant maintenance of everything ELSE to work in an extra type of push up just for Teh Bewbs.

And really…so they fucking sag. Everyone can just manage to find a way to continue living their lives, in spite of my sagtacular ta-tas. I have faith that it can be done.

Comment #128: Well, what?  on  04/19  at  09:12 AM

You know what’s really messed up?

Reading through the comments instantly brought on guilt that I’m mostly slim-to-average in all dimensions and, 23 years old in postgraduate study, don’t find clothes shopping too arduous.

The patriarchy: it gets us coming, it gets us going.

Comment #129: Lachaise  on  04/19  at  09:32 AM

This thread makes me sad.

I thought we were mostly done with this shit. I thought that women could get away with going to work without makeup, wearing men’s shoes, and spending the minimal possible time on clothes shopping by finding a pair of dress slacks that fit and then buying nine of them. I realize from reading this thread, however, that this has been my experience only because I was fortunate enough to go into IT.

In IT, the rules change. Performing femininity proves that you don’t have what it takes. The nicely dressed women are either the secretaries (not taken seriously) or the managers (not technical, and therefore not taken seriously). Of course that’s another form of policing of women, and it would totally suck for a girly girl who loves makeup and frilly clothes and also is a hotshot programmer, and it’s a side effect of the lack of women in IT and in fact the perception that women =! technical (I suspect that female soldiers and female construction workers are also under pressure to *not* perform femininity.) But it actually makes it a lot easier to deal with than if you worked in an environment which was more inclusive of women and therefore pressured you more to dress like a girl.

I’m not sure what a technical manager who is female would look like (ie, someone who rose up the ranks from the IT department herself rather than someone who got placed in charge of the programming team even though she’s not technical.) I’ve never actually seen one. Although, my manager is a business analyst, like I am, and business analysts fall into a gray zone where we *can* be femmy if we want to, because it’s the women’s ghetto of IT (business analysis is only as technical as the analyst wants to get, and it requires the mindset of a programmer but the ability to talk to customers—it’s more client facing—and does *not* require having actually learned a programming language, so it seems to be a comfortable fit for women who probably would have been programmers if they’d been born men, but the “girls don’t program” mentality kept them from pursuing programming as a career.) My manager dresses very femmy. But even though she *has* technical skills, she never gets to use them because she’s too busy being a manager, and I feel like she is kind of treated the way non-technical managers are… whereas, say, the manager of the programmers, who is a guy, *also* doesn’t have time to do tech stuff himself but is treated by IT as one of them.

I do do a lot of shopping, but 90% of it is for my kids, or groceries, or is for stuff we need around the house. And I feel like I would be very comfortable demanding that my husband do half of it if he could drive, but he can’t. My mother couldn’t drive, so my father did all the grocery and toiletries shopping in our house, but my mom would bum rides off her mother and go out and do all the clothes shopping for the kids and herself and my dad anyway. My husband has much more of a fashion sense than my dad and would be happy to shop for his own clothes, if he had transportation, but I still have to drive him there… so while he does do all his own shopping for shoes and suits, after I’ve dropped him off at Men’s Wearhouse or something, I do pick him up underpants and socks and casual slacks and all the other things that are very generic for even guys who dress nice.

I do wish we lived in a city with better public transportation, though. If he could get to the stores easily on his own I would totally insist he do his own shopping, and buy the boys clothes, too. Someday Baltimore will be a real city, but not today.

Comment #130: Alara J Rogers  on  04/19  at  10:33 AM

Hate shopping?  Dude, it’s all about TJMaxx.  Huge variety, many racks of plus sizes (their business is in seconds, so they have all the oddballs sizes that other stores can’t always sell - it’s harder to find clothes there as an average size than as a very small or large person), usually right on the season in terms of style, carry everything from business casual to gym rat clothes.  Even bought my snowboarding gear there.  Love it.  Hate shopping elsewhere, love shopping there.

Also: bras.  Find one that fits you awesome and looks like it’s made to survive the apocalypse - just need one.  Then find the make and serial number and order 10 of them off the internet.  That’s yer everyday work bra.  Maybe a few others for outfits that can’t fit the industrial style underneath.  That’s what I’ve done (same style, though had to go down a size when I lost weight) for about 7-8 years now, and I haven’t regretted it at all.  Got about 15 of the damn things at the moment: that’s laundry every two weeks by the rate-limiting step of dirty bras, and I never have to try those suckers on in a store until the tragic day when the company stops making them.

Comment #131: skylanda  on  04/19  at  10:45 AM

Jenny gadget at #114

Yeah the relative advantages of boobs was not at all apart of the point I was trying to make. When I made my second comment I was not trying to minimize the very real damage that unwanted sexual attention could bring upon a minor (or anyone really), I was trying to say that it was irrelevant to my point. I ended up sounding like an ass in my second comment, but I think i finally got out my point in my 3rd comment. Sorry for the confusion.

Comment #132: alysia  on  04/19  at  10:45 AM

Despite the implications of the URL, you are not expected to actually make them
Comment 108—Naomi

Though at least that way I can be confident the putter-together is fairly compensated.

There have been threads, here and elsewhere, about beauty standards, and guys came in to agree that Beauty Standard X was bad, and people who observe or fit that beauty standard are in fact unattractive.  And those guys kind of expect to be praised for bucking the system, and are hurt (and sometimes get angry) when they’re told they’re being jerks for piling on women who, by choice or not, fit a conventional beauty standard.
Comment 116—Ferox

I’m glad to see someone other than me saying this. The point isn’t that non-mainstream beauty stadards are better than mainstream ones, or any one set is better than any other, the whole concept is harmful.

I can’t help but wonder whether any personal standards of attraction are, even at their most benign, at the core unfair and oppressive.
Comment 119—Dark Dec

Actually, there I’d have to say not really, as long as you recognize that they are personal standards, not objectively right or good, and that women who don’t fit them are not valueless. Basically, if you can restrict them to their proper context and not get any on anyone else.

Comment #133: Hershele Ostropoler  on  04/19  at  11:46 AM

mythgo @24:
Not true. At 18, I weighed 115# at just under 5’6” and wore a 32C. It absolutely sucked because “ideal” of 36-24-36 or not, NOTHING fits that.  I couldn’t even go to mens clothes then because they would not fit over the hips or bag hugely at the waist, not close over the bust or balloon everywhere else (shoulders, neck, waist).  My ideal weight, clothing-wise, is in the mid140s because then I can go with mens casual and look pulled together.  As I am now 10-20 over that, I still go with mens casual, but it doesn’t look as together. 
Being an engineer who spent time working in the field and avoiding as many meetings as possible with anyone not in the same career path means I can get away with the same casual and semi-casual stuff as the guys with no big hit.  That is both more comfortable and cheaper, even not counting time wasted trying to buy stuff that may not even exist for me.

Comment #134: helen w. h.  on  04/19  at  11:46 AM

Melponeme_k @ 41:
I do miss that about working in NYC.  At least here in MA I’m not alone in being totally sans the paint, but no one ever even looked twice in NYC.  I haven’t felt compelled to explain the eye swelling and occational lip swelling anywhere outside the south and Asia though, at least not since high school.

Comment #135: helen w. h.  on  04/19  at  11:59 AM

Aw.

And I’d just like to add on the custom-tailored clothing side: for men who care about suits but don’t have work requirements (!) to wear a label, it’s been the case pretty much forever that in most major cities there will be visits from some nice tailor from india or hong kong a few times a year where you can get measured and pick your favorite fabric. My father used to do that, so we really are talking forever…

But the problem with robo-tailors is that robots really aren’t up to sewing quite yet. Things that stretch or flex as they’re being assembled are a Difficult Problem, and as long as nimble-fingered poor people are widely available, it would be a tough sell. (I bet you could build a robotic knitting machine to do this, or use some other method of joining seams.) (Interestingly for a lot of reasons related to this thread, Gizmodo has a piece up on the use of a quasi-robo-tailor to make costumes for Iron Man 2—they did a scan of Downey and then used a 3-D printer to make custom-fitted parts.

Comment #136: paul  on  04/19  at  11:59 AM

@DarkDecapodian

I hope you can find someone else to call you whaaaambulance, because I sure am not going to. I’m sorry you find your life so very very difficult, but maybe next time you could not make it all about your Very Important Man-Feeeeeelings.

Comment #137: morningface  on  04/19  at  12:08 PM

Phoenician, right now I am reduced to driving to saddlemakers’ shops, befriending them, and asking if they know any old guys who make shoes. Please bring on the cobblers, for it has been a long time since I had shoes that fit me.

Comment #138: purpleshoes  on  04/19  at  12:10 PM

I agree with lachaise.  I used to have a very easy body to fit, 5’4”, 115 lbs., small boobs.  I liked shopping.  I now weigh around 165, bigger boobs, lumpier body, harder to fit for sure.  But even though I still don’t really mind shopping, I very much do mind the impossible expectations society places on women and the condescending attitude that everything we do is frivolous - frivolous but, you know, pretty close to mandatory!

Patriarchy hurts ALL of us - men, women, the conventionally attractive and the not-so, the fat, the thin, the big-boobed and the flat-chested. 

On a personal note, when I was in high school I obsessed over makeup and had hundreds of dollars worth of products (I worked after school and instead of saving my money I spent it at Target on beauty crap! sigh) and never left the house without a FULL face of makeup.  When I was 16 I went to Europe for the first time, on a study abroad program, and was told by my new friends there that I shouldn’t even be wearing makeup at my age, and I noticed few 16 year olds wore even lipstick.  It was SUCH A DAMN RELIEF to realize that makeup was optional.  I really had not thought of it as a choice, since I was in 7th grade.  When I came back to a more makeup-mandatory culture, I felt much freer to just say “fuck that” and ditch the makeup, knowing that it wasn’t, like, a universal phenomenon.

So anyways, my point with that is that the more diversity we encounter and appreciate in beauty standards, the more empowered we can be in choosing how much femininity to perform, IMO.

Comment #139: teabea  on  04/19  at  12:17 PM

I am reduced to driving to saddlemakers’ shops, befriending them, and asking if they know any old guys who make shoes.

Custom made shoes are expensive, but custom shoemakers can be found in NYC, London, Paris, and Hong Kong. Some of them will even take a picture of a shoe and duplicate the style measured to your foot. Even though the upfront cost is high, the shoes can be repaired and refurbished for up to 20 years, so the total cost might average out over time. Like many things related to custom clothes, I assume that men have more options in this space.

Comment #140: Tyro  on  04/19  at  12:21 PM

I flat out cannot get over the female body hair taboo. Intellectually I think it’s stupid and oppressive, but I can’t get over my need to have smooth legs and underarms. I shave, I pluck, I wax and it hurts and is expensive, but it’s worth it so I don’t repulse myself. I’m pretty amazed by how strong that taboo is for me.

One thing I don’t think has been mentioned yet is how shopping is often a group activity. In my experience, clothes shopping is something I do with other women. I wonder if shopping became such a valued female activity (valued by women I mean) because it’s the perfect, nonthreatening excuse to socialize.

Comment #141: rivki  on  04/19  at  01:07 PM

skylanda @131 - Your TJMaxx can send my TJMaxx their overstock of plus sized clothes any time.  Around here it’s fifteen racks of juniors and the “Women’s Department” consists of two stretched-out size 16 sweaters and a day-glo polyester muumuu.  I exaggerate, but only slightly.

About the only thing I’ve found in that place is snow boots.  I loved Ross Dress-For-Less (same type of store) but I live on the wrong coast now.

Comment #142: Thena, Sultana of Stale Raisin Bread  on  04/19  at  01:07 PM

scratchy888 @115:
Pushups will NOT keep DDs from sagging; up to Cs, yeah, that helped for a time.  Trust those of us who have ever dealt with the DDs and up.

Comment #143: helen w. h.  on  04/19  at  01:08 PM

Alara JR @130:
We have a couple of women engineers who’ve worked into management. They run the gambet from tailored suits, both skirted/girly pant and man-styled to a step down from business casual (jeans with sweatshirts or ratty sweaters in winter jeans with tees/polos in summer), just like our women engineering staff do.  The younger ones seem more likely to go fem as staff, the older in management - but that may be just the specific personalities involved rather than a trend.

Comment #144: helen w. h.  on  04/19  at  01:20 PM

Tyro, yeah, right now making friends with saddlemakers is easier than getting to New York (... or London). There are four or five tailors in my town, but cobblers are thin on the ground.

Comment #145: purpleshoes  on  04/19  at  01:40 PM

Incidentally, I’ve known a few men who were really into their appearance and shopped- for clothes, shoes, etc.- all the time. I buy all of my clothes at thrift stores, even the stuff that looks good/expensive/fashionable. They could not believe it and put a good bit of time and effort into trying to come up with some hypothetical situation in which my secret love of fashion and shopping would be revealed. One of them, an ex-boyfriend, would be constantly sending me links to stuff he thought would look great on me that I would never, ever wear and it was always hyper-feminine (at least for me). I don’t like shopping for a lot of reasons, but it almost seemed like they thought they should be some kind of awesome catch because they ‘were into shopping, like women are’, although when it turned out I wasn’t, they tried to make me do it all the damn time.

Comment #146: pixelpaper  on  04/19  at  02:17 PM

To scratchy: you may be 41 with no signs of drooping (to your eye), my large breasts hadn’t by then, either.

But I’m 60 right now, here to tell you no matter the exercise God you pray to, your small breasts will deflate and/or droop, and especially, large breasts will droop.

Yeah, I wasn’t crazy about it either, but it’s a fact of nature. (And probably one of the main reasons that keep plastic surgeons in business.)

The excercise you do may have other benefits, and I understand your denial (not me, I won’t age!) but in the end, you’ll pay either nature’s price or a plastic surgeon.

Comment #147: judybrowni  on  04/19  at  02:49 PM

The excercise you do may have other benefits, and I understand your denial (not me, I won’t age!) but in the end, you’ll pay either nature’s price or a plastic surgeon.

Or the price for a good bra, which is much less expensive than plastic surgery.  grin  I don’t care what my boobs do at home as long as they’re hiked up off my stomach in public so I look like I have something that vaguely resembles a waist.

Comment #148: Mnemosyne  on  04/19  at  02:57 PM

I hope this will make many feel better about hair removal… Throughout history in all sorts of cultures, hair removal has been a big deal—Mohawks anyone? Anyway, cultures that made some kind of hair depilation important, usually had the time to let their members do it in peace and quiet. This is more problematic in our go-go-go culture.

I take a morning shower before going to work, but I would never shave then since it would be too stressful to add more time to my routine. I usually do whatever needs to be done before bedtime, so I can relax and be meditative about it.

Of course, I have no spouse and no children, so it’s easier for me. I’m just suggesting to do this the night before it’s necessary for that interview or big meeting so you can have a chance to relax about it.

Comment #149: LCforevah  on  04/19  at  03:27 PM

alysia

It’s all good. smile  That’s what I figured.  I wasn’t trying to pile on you on my second reply to you, I was just trying to clarify as well.

“Scratchy, I’m sure you don’t mean it, but I agree with jennygadget that you were sounding like a presumptuous, smug git with your MY BOOBS IS GRATE! YORES CAN BE TOOOO! and I suspect that is whatsup. “

yup.  This.  Especially seeing as how the quote of mine you pulled out was not only clearly spoken in the context of a conversation about larger boobs, but also a comment in which I was talking about ppl judging my boobs back before I could even see a PG-13 movie without my parents. (Which, I will repeat, did not magically defy gravity even then.

Regarding the first: push-ups may help some, but they sure as fuck will not “fix” all.

Regarding the second: seriously?  Could you try next time to consider the context in which you are making your point?  And how you are going about doing so?  I wasn’t the only one who talked about boobs sagging; you could have easily addressed us all by not quoting anyone specifically.  But instead you quoted me.  AND you quoted something I said right before I went on to talk about being harassed and abused as a young child.  AND you replied to it by saying, essentially “on, no.  if you do (did?) push-ups your breasts would never sag!”  Seeing as how sagging breasts was one of the things I was self-conscious about as a child/teen, and one of the things I felt ppl were pointing at (even if, from the perspective of adulthood, I’m pretty that really wasn’t it) your comment was just beyond victim blamey to me.

Comment #150: jennygadget  on  04/19  at  04:13 PM

Breasts are essentially bags of tissue.  They are held up by skin.  They aren’t a muscle.  There is no way that exercising a muscle under the breast will do anything but push it upward somewhat.  The bigger the breast, the sooner and more dramatically this will happen.

As has often been said of another non-muscle organ:  You can’t shoot pool with a rope.

Comment #151: oldfeminist  on  04/19  at  04:51 PM

Editing fail:

Breasts are essentially bags of tissue.  They are held up by skin.  They aren’t a muscle.  There is no way that exercising a muscle under the breast will do anything but push it upward somewhat.  They will eventually droop because skin stretches.  The bigger the breast, the sooner and more dramatically this will happen.

Comment #152: oldfeminist  on  04/19  at  04:53 PM

Last month I bought a pencil skirt, and I wanted a blouse with French cuffs to go with it.  Grey, blue, stripes, whatever.  But ruffles are in so you can’t find the basics like that without them.  Three stores, each 30-45 minutes away from my house and each other

But of course all that running around and trouble is *your* fault for being a silly, frivolous, picky woman, and we all know men don’t worry about details like French cuffs vs. ruffles.

Except Mr. Kristin won’t wear ringer tees or any long sleeve tees with cuffs at all, or sweatshirts, or sweaters, or sneakers, or any jacket that’s not leather. Or briefs. Or trouser socks. And his brother won’t wear anything but plain black tees and crewneck sweaters with black cargo pants. And his best friend wouldn’t be caught dead in jeans that are blue or indeed any denim pants at all that look like jeans. But you know, men aren’t as picky about what they wear as we are and they don’t notice the details of their clothing. *eyeroll*

Comment #153: kristin  on  04/19  at  05:25 PM

Time to reread Naomi Wolf’s “The Beauty Myth”.  One of the things that really struck me was the time and financial penalty that many professional women pay when you compare wardrobe, grooming, etc versus their male co-workers.

Comment #154: CParis  on  04/19  at  05:27 PM

But the problem with robo-tailors is that robots really aren’t up to sewing quite yet.

True—but they can do custom cutting easily enough, and I’m willing to pay $10 more for the person who sews my custom-fit jeans to have a living wage.

Comment #155: Maureen  on  04/19  at  05:44 PM

Interior breast tissue also becomes less dense as you age: which is why it’s more difficult for technicians to read mammograms for younger women, but hella easier to spot potential problems in the mammograms of older women.

Or so was explained to me by the mammogram tech (another middle-aged woman) when I expressed interest in seeing my mammogram (which I now do religiously, after a Kaiser mamo a dozen years ago where they didn’t bother to inform me about a dime-sized cyst.)

By the by, although I know womean who’ve gone the implant and reduction route, I’ve just invested in industrial strength bras.

Especially since one of each of those women insisted on showing me the results: frankly, I didn’t want to go the route of either basketball or Frankenstein tits (black, blue, purple, green bruising and scars.)

Surgery on my breasts is

Comment #156: judybrowni  on  04/19  at  05:48 PM

scratchy888:

Perhaps that is true at some sizes, I would not know because it is not true at an H cup.  In fact, they literally get in the way of doing push-ups.

Comment #157: bellacoker  on  04/19  at  06:02 PM

“Buying household essentials and keeping the family fed and clothed means the typical female shops for a staggering 25,184 hours and 53 mins over a period of 63 years.”

Sorry, keeping the family fed & clothed also includes cooking, doing the dishes, and doing the laundry, which I’m sure triples that estimate.

Coming late to this thread, but I read through it and had these various other comments to make:

1)  For odd shoe sizes, I’m told Zappos.com ships free, including returns!

2)  For bras—find yourself a fitter.  In a real shop, not in some chain store.  Real bras that actually work might cost more (mine sure does) but if you calculate it out in cents per day, it is such a life-saver.

3)  Maureen, I can’t think about robo-tailors without remembering the scene in Sleeper.

4)  Shaving…gah.  Every time I pick up a razor (rarely!) all I can think of is the endless woman-hours wasted on shaving…we could have cured cancer and solved the Middle East peace crisis by now, even in heels.

5)  Godless Heathen, I love you.

Comment #158: Roving Thundercloud  on  04/19  at  08:34 PM

“scratchy888:

Perhaps that is true at some sizes, I would not know because it is not true at an H cup.  In fact, they literally get in the way of doing push-ups. “

ha!  Yes, this.  smile

I mean, I still try to do them sometimes, but lifting weights works so much better.

Comment #159: jennygadget  on  04/19  at  09:09 PM

The other thing about breasts is that the actual mammalian apparatus of the breast continues to develop and complexify until menopause. A youthful breast has a much higher ratio of fat to glandular tissue; as the ducts and alveoli develop and increase in number, the breast tends to start to hang not just because the skin and tendons stretch but because there’s just plain more going on in there. This is another place where I am made aware that our culture hates being reminded that bodies do things.

Comment #160: purpleshoes  on  04/19  at  09:53 PM

helen @134 and others - sorry if I came across as suggesting that men’s clothes can solve all your apparel needs (believe me, as somebody who has to wear suits, I know it doesn’t). But for things like casual shirts and sneakers, men’s clothes not only have larger sizes, they are better made.

On shopping for men - one reason women may do this is that it’s so much goddamn easier to judge men’s sizes. If I pick up a pair of Levis with the correct waist and inseam, it’s going to fit him. He doesn’t have to try it on. There is no question of one manufacturer having a size 8 which is the same as another manufacturer’s size 4.

Comment #161: mythago  on  04/19  at  10:38 PM

@130

Yeah, this thread makes me sad too. I feel sorry for everyone who does these things when they don’t want to.

Oh, and I’m 5’ 6”, skinny, no hips, no tits. Nothing fits me either folks, unless it’s from the juniors section.

Comment #162: kiki  on  04/19  at  10:40 PM

Here’s my solution:

Dress how you like by buying several of the tops/bottoms that you are happy with. Tell the busy bodies at work that you were in a biking accident and can no longer remember details relating to clothes/ makeup / etc…  As a bonus you can also use this reason for not getting involved in conversations about diet and weight loss. Tell them you just can’t discern those kind of changes anymore and keep your conversation focused on the person themselves and not their appearance. I am not kidding, its worked for me like a charm and I used to be one of those women who eveyone assumed was fucking her way to the top. When its your time to opt out, this is one easy way to do it.

Comment #163: kate_sc  on  04/19  at  11:30 PM

kate_sc @163: “worked for me” != “would work for everyone”.  I don’t think that implying you sustained a closed-head injury that impaired your mental functioning is necessarily the best way to get ahead at work, either, but perhaps that’s just me.

Comment #164: mythago  on  04/20  at  12:55 AM

i’m in IT as well, and i wear a “uniform.”  black dockers, blue, green, or white “fitted” button down shirt tails out, and black danskos.  i wear no makeup and don’t style my hair.  i am quite overweight, though i am losing now, and i just can’t handle wearing skirts, dresses or whatever.  to be honest, i’ve pretty much been REALLY good about telling people who say i should girly up to fuck off.  now, i do henna my hair, but that is the only female thing i do-i don’t even shave anymore.  when i was younger (will be 42 in a couple of weeks) i did dress up-to rather amazed reactions, in fact-i wore a miniskirt to a party once and was asked where the hell THOSE had been.  really, i’m just too lazy and uncaring to work too hard to look the way they do in the magazines.  moreover, i’m not classically (or at all) pretty.  and i’m ok with that. 
as far as unwanted sexual attention-you don’t have to have breasts early for that, trust me.  hey, i want to mention, too-i really like this site.

Comment #165: rengeko  on  04/20  at  02:08 AM

@ 137: No whaambulance for me, just trying to find a personal solution to a social problem. But I guess you believe the only correct solution would involve copious amounts of pellet mouthwash, hmm? Spare me your pettiness.

Comment #166: DarkDecapodian  on  04/20  at  07:56 AM

Mythgo, for me the men’s clothing is definately the way to go for most of my needs.  Even the polo shirts tend to have better work and materials.  Why are men’s tees and henneys of softer, thicker cotton then women’s, even when under the same brand?  It’s maddening.  Ditto jeans and sturdier, more comfortable cloth.

Comment #167: helen w. h.  on  04/20  at  09:21 AM

Why are men’s tees and henneys of softer, thicker cotton then women’s, even when under the same brand?

Because women are supposed to run out and buy a whole new wardrobe every time the fashion trends change in order to stay current, so there’s no need for their clothing to last any real length of time.  What do you mean, you ‘can’t afford it’?  Loser.

Now if I were really cynical, I would say that women’s shirts are made of thinner material to make nipples easier to see.  If I were really cynical.

Comment #168: Sour Kraut  on  04/20  at  10:57 AM

I truly, truly love performing femininity; I love high heels, I love make-up, I love beautiful, well-made clothes.  It’s an art form, this performance, and I am an artist.  However, I’m not remotely of the opinion that just because I like it (and have the privilege money, time, and race-wise to perform it within western male ideals of beauty) everyone should.  I’m also uninterested in men who mock it, because they’re clearly looking for reasons to hate and dismiss women.

But in all this discussion, I’m surprised not to see a mention of the extra work black women have to do to conform to the US beauty standards:  Relaxing hair, weaves, wigs - these all cost huge amounts of time and money.  The beauty standards do not make exceptions for black women - the standard is white, white, white.  So add skin lightening, the extra time to find make-up designed for black skin, and the fun of seeing almost every beauty trend reduce you to a narrow “exotic” stereotype.

When survival in the workplace is contingent on expensive hair alteration and conforming to a beauty ideal that does not even acknowledge you, it’s pretty depressing to be mocked for shopping.

Comment #169: attack_laurel  on  04/20  at  11:35 AM

Heh, being a grad student I really don’t have to worry about this stuff (thank goodness!) except to the extent that I have a hole in my favorite t-shirt and my jeans are getting thin in awkward places, which is gonna necessitate a shopping trip at some point… but I can identify a little bit just from the whole grad interview process. I had to go find all that stupid heels-purse-suit-white shirt-earrings crap basically from scratch (my only bag at that point was old-‘n-patchy jeans-fabric and had Naruto keychains :p) and it was a total ordeal involving multiple stores over the course of 2 weekends. My mom (naturally) also had to waste her time helping me out, so that’s double the lost female-hours.

And once I’d found some decent high-heel boot things and schlepped across the country for my interviews, I found the same thing for most of the female students; young women looking awkward in nice pants and uncomfortable shoes we largely weren’t super adept at walking in. But we’d all heard the horror stories about what would happen if we didn’t dress for success, so when our interview coordinator said “oh, don’t worry about dressing up for the interviews! Just wear comfy shoes for walking” we all laughed politely and then showed back up the next day in the exact same shoes, ‘cause we’re nerds but we weren’t raised by wolves and that extra 2 inches and the 20 minutes spent figuring out the mascara was going to be our whole hope at “professionalism” that trip. And as girls we needed to look older than we were (“so, you’re still an undergrad? ...hmm…”) and competent as possible.

Comment #170: Bagelsan  on  04/20  at  06:12 PM

I have decided to rebel against the unspoken rule that women must wear a different outfit each day. I wear the same thing two days in a row. And I don’t care if anyone cares. It’s great! There are now only three days in the week instead of five that I have to agonize over what to wear to work.

Comment #171: Maria H  on  04/20  at  11:36 PM

I admire the courage of women who say no to beauty standards, but I also admire the women who decide to take audacious pleasure in femininity.  Both are rejections of the restraints of femininity, one of the standards themselves, and one of the taboos against women showing their work or taking too much pleasure in it.

Thank you for this, Amanda! I’ve always had issues with expressing my own femininity. I’m interested in fashion (mostly of the vintage-inspired, somewhat hipster variety), and I used to feel that the only way I could “rebel against the patriarchy” was by not dressing the way I wanted. I think reading “Whipping Girl” by Julia Serano was the first thing that made me realize the most subversive thing I could do would be to dress for ME, the way I like, and not worry about what anyone else thinks. The fact that I like feminine clothes (as well as T-shirts from Threadless.com), bright colors, and neat jewelry, and that I enjoy wearing lipstick, does not make me a slave to cultural expectations of women. I don’t dress to be a sex object, and in fact most of my clothing is “modest” (though I hate the religious associations of that). I can be feminine and still be a feminist. Other styles work for other people.

Having large breasts is supposed to be the goal in our society. But as a 36 DD, shopping for clothes can often be a hassle. I have a large chest but small waist, so clothes are typically too tight for my chest or too baggy and shapeless around my stomach. I always have to try clothes on. And shopping for swimsuits sucks because most of them are bikinis, which don’t work for me. I’d say most clothes are probably made for B or C sized breasts, not D or DD.

I found a place online that I love, though. Delias.com (it’s for teens and college-aged women though). Everything in a M that I’ve bought from there fits me. I’ve never had that experience finding so many clothes that fit me and that I like before.

Comment #172: ArtOfMe  on  04/23  at  11:25 AM

173 posts about shopping. I don’t see this as a good thing. We are not about the things we buy. We are about the people we are, men and women, both.

Comment #173: AuntieMay  on  04/23  at  11:35 PM

AuntieMay,

that may be true, but we’re discussing the study here, and how it relates to what this website is about. It’s no different than discussing anything else that relates to our lives here. Shopping is as much a part of social structures as anything else.

Comment #174: ArtOfMe  on  04/24  at  02:01 PM
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