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Next entry: Amazingly, Fox News Is Wrong Previous entry: Insanity from the mailbag: a new take on the bible, evolution, and Bigfoot

It wasn’t sex-blogging that ruined the economy, but something close to it

I’m going to try to write this without jumping all over anyone’s ass, because I think the male liberal blogging cabal—-while no doubt a conspiracy that has absolutely no relationship to paranoid anti-Semitic myths—-is composed of a group of generally pro-feminist dudes.  But I ground my teeth when reading this post at Lawyers, Guns, and Money and the link to Brad DeLong’s observation:

Moneyblogging vs. Sexblogging

At the moment “Fear of Reese Witherspoon Look-Alikes on the Pill” has 116 comments, while “The Geithner Plan FAQ” has only 89 comments. I confess this leaves me somewhat disappointed: I thought money would be dominating by this point…

And DJW at LGM added:

It’s a fair point. The mockery of Douthat’s all too public sexual peculiarities is a grand internet tradition, but at the end of the day, we all knew that Bill Kristol’s slot would be filled by a ridiculous person, and the particular nature of that ridiculousness is pretty inconsequential.

Everyone understood it at the time that the Douthat quote was shocking not because he was bragging about someone wanting to fuck him, but because it was so nakedly misogynist.  It’s not a “sexual peculiarity” that he was expressing, and sadly it’s not that peculiar at all to see a man like him whose loathing of women runs so deep that he can’t get an erection unless he’s threatening his sex partner’s safety and bodily autonomy.  It’s not even that peculiar that he’d brag about it—-our culture is awash in the message that women deserve to be shat upon for daring to have either sexual desire or independence.  And while it’s true that the slot was reserved for a conservative who is almost surely going to be a misogynist, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t use the opportunity to point out how acceptable this sort of hatred of women is in mainstream culture. 


I’m bothered by the assumption that “sexblogging” (actually, blogging to protest near-violent hatred of women) should garner less feedback than a post about the economy.  This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say that women’s rights are treated like a boutique issue, when it’s an issue that is as important as the economy. This isn’t about saving one old oak from being cut down by developers—-we’re talking about the basic rights of half the human race and the economic and familial well-being of the entire human race, well-being that relies on women having basic control over our bodies that people like Douthat would deny us. 

If anything, I’d say the struggle over women’s rights is actually one reason this country is so deep in manure right now.  Why do I say?  Because without anti-feminism to garner votes from people whose economic interests are better served by Democrats, then there wouldn’t be a Republican party to speak of.  I don’t like it any more than anyone else that Republicans can squeak out electoral victories by scaring people about gay marriage, abortion, and Title IX, but that they can shouldn’t be that surprising, really.  Because these issues are important.  How many children you have, who does the majority of the housework, who gets to make the final decisions in a family—-these things all matter to people as much as the economy.  In a sense, they are economic issues, since much of anti-feminism is about getting women to do more work for less money to benefit men.  But it’s also about something that’s profoundly important to people: identity and the sense of self.  Like check out this guy who commented at Hugo’s place:

How can (men) feel valued as a human being if there’s basically nothing only they can do that women cannot while there’s a lot of things men cannot do that women can’t[sic]? You either get detachment or service in this situation, but service, of couse, is requiring social checks on women - some kind of affirmative action for men, which one may call patriarchy. Which leaves a bit of a problem: reject patriarchy and you’ll get male detachment.

I’m not going to pretend to understand why conservative men are so damn jealous of women’s reproductive and sexual functions, though I can see why they’re scared that women will reject them if we don’t need them.  (Because I myself reject these men out of hand for sucking, and I’m sure they have every reason to believe the women in their lives would, too.)  But there it is, in all its naked glory—-the belief that half the human race needs to be subjected to violence, coercion, and abuse to keep us as a permanent underclass so the other half can feel good about itself.  (Of course, as Hugo points out, it doesn’t even work that way and a lot of men don’t feel good about themselves in this circumstance.) 

I’d bet a very large sum of money that guy voted for Bush, and probably would again even if he sees his savings go down the tube or loses his job.  A whole lot of men share his neurosis, and the Republican party caters to it expertly.  With stuff like this.  Or the gun nut stuff, i.e. the phallic enhancement program.  Or code phrases like “family values”.  Or anti-choice nuttery.  Even libertarianism doesn’t really function without anxious masculinity to fuel it, and Ayn Rand knew it and used phallic fantasies to lure in her followers.  War-mongering is impossible to pull off without appeals to anxious masculinity and the sad hope that blowing some other country with expensive weaponry will make the National Penis that much bigger.  I’d even blame male entitlement for a lot of the bone-headed decisions you see coming out of D.C., because a lot of men, especially Republicans, are so used to being treated like they’re smart because they’re white men that they never actually bothered to develop any intelligence.  But thanks to the patriarchy, everyone is in on the sham.  (My favorite example might be discovering that ex-congressman Duke Cunningham made it so far in life while being unable to write above a 3rd grade level.)  If we actually created a truly feminist society, a lot of problems would cease to exist, but the Republican party would likely be the first to go.  I’m just pleading with liberal male bloggers to remember that when the urge to write off misogyny as a less important problem than others, including the economic crisis. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:36 PM • (115) Comments

Thanks for this post. We’re supposed to be the political movement that can walk and chew gum at the same time. Let’s demonstrate that, eh? We can think about the economy, energy policy, education, health care, reproductive freedom, and criticize rank misogyny, all without needing to spend weeks between topics clearing brush to let our foreheads cool down.

I always hated comment count comparisons, anyway. Why is it surprising that more people have more interesting things to say about misogyny and terrible writing than about the financial crisis? When it comes to the latter, about the best that most of us can do is read the comments of genuinely well-informed people like Krugman, DeLong, and Geithner, and try to get some thin sense of what’s going on. Frankly, the discussions on Douthat were much more interesting, because they were much better-informed.

Comment #1: Llelldorin  on  03/23  at  05:58 PM

I think the male liberal blogging cabal…is composed of a group of generally pro-feminist dudes.

No, a lot of them just tolerate feminist viewpoints, until they display their male privilege (as DJW did) and a feminist criticizes them. Then they start harrumphing about “political correctness” and “no sense of humor” and so forth.

Comment #2: Nobody in Particular  on  03/23  at  06:01 PM

Excellent point, and well worth considering when weighing the relative importance of various issues.  People have a lot to say about sex and gender roles, because these things are incredibly important.  There are a lot of people who would rather burn this country to the ground rather than accept women’s equality, and the sooner we get that, the better we’ll be at fighting them.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  06:02 PM

Nobody, I find that accusing my allies of having poor intentions doesn’t get me very far.  I save that for the real bad guys.  Like Ann Althouse.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  06:03 PM

Great post, Amanda.

Honestly, I read Hugo’s blog a lot, but I don’t comment there often.  However, it seems like he gets guys of a special brand of woman hating crazy over there.

Comment #5: ks  on  03/23  at  06:10 PM

Just to provide a short answer to this implied question…

I’m not going to pretend to understand why conservative men are so damn jealous of women’s reproductive and sexual functions, though I can see why they’re scared that women will reject them if we don’t need them.

Because antifeminism, feminism, and economic progressivism actually all share a similar fear: the fear of being disposable.  Women and feminism have had to deal with being figuratively or literally disposable for countless centuries, and that dehumanizing reality has provided feminism with a great deal of its ideals and impetus.  Self- and/or class-aware members of the producing classes (ie: those of us in this society, blue or white collar, who actually make the society work rather than leech off the work of others) have known this for some time too, and it drives unions, social welfare legislation, and the like.

So-called traditional males, however, are just coming to grips with how disposable they are.  They are willfully blind to being economically disposable, and vote against their interests.  That is a given.  But they are terrified of being romantically and sexually disposable too; that’s what drives so much resentment in the MRA threads, with their endless comments of `the bitch got what she wanted and left’, and so forth.  Their fear channels into backlash and conservatism.  They haven’t quite got a grip on the fact that a more humanistic and feminist approach to their social constructs and their relationships increase rather than decrease the odds of them being “retained”.

Simple fact is, for the first time in a very long time men are disposable and many of that gender can’t get their minds or emotions around the fact, let alone how to rationally handle it.

Comment #6: seeker6079  on  03/23  at  06:10 PM

Nobody, I find that accusing my allies of having poor intentions doesn’t get me very far.

Allies are as allies do. In my experience, there’s no shortage of left-leaning men (offline and online) for whom women’s rights are, at best, an afterthought.

Comment #7: Nobody in Particular  on  03/23  at  06:13 PM

Amanda, accusing nice people of bad things may not get you far, but do you really think pleading will do much better?

I agree with everything you wrote up above, but the naked fact that you do have to ask them, again and again and again, to remember that women are human, is pretty awful. I don’t think that most liberal male bloggers are active sexists, but to be an ally is more than just not being an enemy. To qualify as an ally you have to actually do something. I bet some of them will agree now that you’ve pointed it out, but they have learned that it is okay to make feminists be their conscience, they don’t have to do it themselves. Guys like Jesse and Atrios and all the rest who talk about feminism without being prompted and cajoled and begged into it are absolutely my allies. Some of the others? Maybe not.

Comment #8: sophonisba  on  03/23  at  06:14 PM

Well, I think the point of that remark was somewhat different. Attacking Ross Douthat is merely entertainment—because making fun of people even for horrendous stuff isn’t political activism. While discussion of the pertinent economic issue of the day is not really snark material. The truth is that people like to blog comments on easy stuff, and are avoiding talking about the economic stuff because its too damned depressing and complicated. Everyone had an opinion about douthat because everyone was agreed the guy is an egregious asshole, it was fun to point it out, and fun to see what other people said. Its not the sexism is or is not “as important” as the economy its that *pointing out that Ross Douthat is a sexist, misogynist, light weight thinker being awarded a top slot at the times* is easy while wrestling with the economic misadventures and missteps of our popular president is incredibly demoralizing and difficult.

aimai

Comment #9: aimai  on  03/23  at  06:26 PM

That Douthat is misogynistic comes through clearly in all his opinion writing, there’s no question there.

But with respect to the specific anecdote, I think that kind of story doesn’t trigger immediate condemnation in all men as obvious misogyny.  I think it comes across as kind of sad, immature and pitiable actually.  Mr. Douthat chases a young woman and when the moment comes, discovers it’s not what he wants.  Not all men are actually driven to have sex with new partners, no matter what the evo psych guys would say (likewise, some women prefer familiarity and some like novelty—it takes all types).  The pathetic part is that this then gets channeled by the immature man into wanting to impose his preference on everybody else.  That’s stupid and sad.  But condemning him for realizing it wasn’t what he wanted is also off the mark.

I don’t think the story automatically implies Mr. Douthat can only be happy with a submissive or subservient partner (although that is also consistent with the story, we just don’t know).  It just seems to mean he doesn’t know what he wants.  Doesn’t this happen to young men and women occasionally—chase somebody only to realize it wasn’t what you wanted?  It does make you question the NYTimes for choosing him as their new conservative voice in spite of this apparent immaturity.

I will also agree that as a general rule, the male liberal blogosphere struggles with their implicit bias towards patriarchy.  In spite of their best intentions, they all slip from time to time and need regular (gentle) reminding how pervasive and entrenched sexism really still is.

I read here (andother feminist bloggers) to help fight that bias in myself.  I don’t think the rape-culture is quite as deeply entrenched as Amanda does.  But I could be wrong, so it’s good to ask yourself the question periodically and see.

Comment #10: dram  on  03/23  at  06:29 PM

pointing out that Ross Douthat is a sexist, misogynist, light weight thinker being awarded a top slot at the times* is easy

Easy for you and any other feminist, but people like Matthew Yglesias had a damn hard time noticing it. It’s really not as obvious as you make it sound unless you already agree that sexism is a big deal that’s impossible to overlook, and plenty of liberal bloggers do not agree about that.

Comment #11: sophonisba  on  03/23  at  06:31 PM

At the moment ”Fear of Reese Witherspoon Look-Alikes on the Pill” has 116 comments, while ”The Geithner Plan FAQ” has only 89 comments. I confess this leaves me somewhat disappointed: I thought money would be dominating by this point…

The entire premise of the argument is flawed. A difference of less than 30 comments in threads that are probably by now well over 100 comments each is not meaningful.

This strikes me, frankly, as a modified form of the “if you care so much about Y, why aren’t you talking about X?” concern troll.

Comment #12: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  03/23  at  06:34 PM

I’ve been struggling with this idea that we shouldn’t call out our allies for some time.  But in general, the overwhelmingly positive reaction to Douthat’s anointment as the Next Great Male Conservative from those white dude liberal bloggers worries me as a feminist.  It’s clear that it’s not important to Matt or Ezra that this guy does not think of women as human beings worthy of respect.  It’s clear that they think of it as a minor difference.  That’s mostly because of what you mention, Amanda, this idea that sexual/gender politics are not “hard politics” - that they don’t matter so much.  I don’t see how, as a feminist, we don’t have an obligation to call them out on that.  Intentions or no intentions, they aren’t being allies when they applaud his elevation to the national stage.  And Ezra and Matt should be smart enough to know that.

Comment #13: Pilgrim Soul  on  03/23  at  06:37 PM

“I’m bothered by the assumption that “sexblogging” (actually, blogging to protest near-violent hatred of women) should garner less feedback than a post about the economy. “

This is incredibly nitpicking, and I’m not trying to be a jerk here, but on a blog about economic issues by one of the more prominent economists in the United States, I don’t see why that’s a crazy assumption.

Sorry to lead with the criticism. The rest of the post is pretty much spot on. Tolerance of far-right craziness as if it were a valid alternative in an intellectual debate assumes the far right crazies are arguing in good faith. And their not.

Comment #14: John Voorheis  on  03/23  at  06:44 PM

And I can’t spell.

Comment #15: John Voorheis  on  03/23  at  06:44 PM

I think there’s a difference between the left-male bloggers who really are indifferent to gender (and often racial) issues like Yglesias and the guys over at LGM, who tend to be very reliable allies.  The top post there is currently attacking harassment, and highlighting the extremely sexist behavior of the O’Reilly show. 

We’ll see if they respond positively or not, but I do think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #16: Billingham  on  03/23  at  06:52 PM

No, a lot of them just tolerate feminist viewpoints, until they display their male privilege (as DJW did) and a feminist criticizes them. Then they start harrumphing about “political correctness” and “no sense of humor” and so forth.

Comment #17: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  06:53 PM

Oops I meant to comment on that snippet before I blasphemed.  I was going to say “or when the subject of porn or stripping comes up”.

Comment #18: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  06:54 PM

1) DeLong was joking.  It was more an effort to defuse the fact that his commentors were really upset with his Geithner FAQ (which has zoomed past 116 comments)

2) I think the DJW point is poor.  And other type of bias who have had a huge outcry.  The fact Douthat believes 1/2 the human race are less human than he is due to XX instead of XY is a big deal.

3) Douthat may have realized he didn’t want it.  But instead of awkwardly backing out, he blames the women for wanting sex and then uses it to illustrate a greater Madonna/whore point in a book years later.

Comment #19: Robert  on  03/23  at  06:57 PM

On Democratic Underground there was a lot of complaining about the numerous, and lengthy, discussions of Rihanna and Chris Brown.  The complainers, of course, evoked comparisons to the economy or starving Darfurians or whatever to illustrate that the topic was mere celebrity gossip and not worthy of discussion.  But those threads were not about the celebrities involved, but domestic violence in general, and what traps women in abusive relationships.  There were raging arguments over women hitting men and how the law should treat situations where both partners are violent.  Hardly untrammeled ground for lefty sites, but instructive to feminists who mistakenly believe that MRAs are confined to the right.  Thank you for the way you put this in your post, Amanda.  Sometimes when passions flare and people get emotional about a particular subject, it’s actually because it’s an important subject.

Comment #20: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  07:02 PM

Not to shamelessly blog whore, but as a male blogger I felt compelled to write a couple of posts about Douthat because it is astonishing to me that he is 1) taken seriously as a “thinker” by certain liberal bloggers; and 2) being hired by the New York Fuckin’ Times.

http://www.cogitamusblog.com/2009/03/because-callow-prudish-prigs-deserve-a-voice-too-.html

http://www.cogitamusblog.com/2009/03/masticating-in-the-closet.html

As for it drawing more comments than the Geithner plan, it may well be that many of us feel much more confident opining about a ridiculous asshole like Douthat getting a primo spot in a major media publication than we do about what should be done with toxic CDOs.  I’m actually reasonably sophisticated when it comes to investments and I can’t say I have the first fucking clue about what to do with this mess.  Douthat, on the other hand, I totally understand, in a sick, sad kind of way.

Comment #21: Sir Charles  on  03/23  at  07:18 PM

But with respect to the specific anecdote, I think that kind of story doesn’t trigger immediate condemnation in all men as obvious misogyny.  I think it comes across as kind of sad, immature and pitiable actually.  Mr. Douthat chases a young woman and when the moment comes, discovers it’s not what he wants.  Not all men are actually driven to have sex with new partners, no matter what the evo psych guys would say (likewise, some women prefer familiarity and some like novelty—it takes all types).  The pathetic part is that this then gets channeled by the immature man into wanting to impose his preference on everybody else.  That’s stupid and sad.  But condemning him for realizing it wasn’t what he wanted is also off the mark.

Was anyone criticizing him for changing his mind? I’d thought that we were all mocking him for changing his mind and then diverting the blame onto his would-be partner. “I’m sorry, I don’t want to do this,” is almost always a reasonable tack to take. “My manly phallus just softened! Witch! WITCH!!!” really, really isn’t. His article leaned far towards the latter.

Comment #22: Llelldorin  on  03/23  at  07:23 PM

Which leaves a bit of a problem: reject patriarchy and you’ll get male detachment.

Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s threatening that the whole male gender will go Galt on us if women aren’t properly submissive.

GO ALREADY!  Just fucking go.  No one will miss you, and maybe, when you realize you’ve been a complete douche, we might let you apologize and return.  Maybe.

I’m not going to pretend to understand why conservative men are so damn jealous of women’s reproductive and sexual functions, though I can see why they’re scared that women will reject them if we don’t need them.

It’s a zero-sum game for them.  If women gain power; then men must lose power.  They hate women so, and treat them so badly, that the idea of being treated like a woman is terrifying.  Because that’s what they see happening—look at the quote above.  If women aren’t subjugated and marginalized, then men will be.

The idea that everyone would be treated as a human is too alien for them to grasp.

Comment #23: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/23  at  07:27 PM

That may be true that some left-leaning men are hostile to feminism, but I have no reason to think that of Brad DeLong (who was the first male blogger I read who pointed out that Douthat’s misogyny makes him a deplorable pick) or DJW, who comments here occasionally and writes on an openly pro-feminist blog.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  07:27 PM

That’s all true, aimai, but it’s also true that Brad undercut his original point, which is that we should get angry about Douthat, because he is a really hateful person.  And that the hand-waving about how it was going to be some asshole, and just happened to be that asshole is missing the point, which is that this is a teaching moment.  By implying that his own post was fluff, Brad implies that the point—-which is that misogyny is something we should take very seriously and call it out even when there’s no direct benefit for doing so—-is not as heavy-hitting as an economic post.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  07:31 PM

dram, it’s not that he didn’t want sex that makes him a misogynist.  It’s that he was actively turned off by a woman who demonstrated self-respect and self-care.  It’s only hot for him if it’s dangerous for her.  That’s misogyny, and Brad picked it precisely because most men will immediately get how vicious and hateful it is to resent a sex partner for not wanting to risk unintended pregnancy.  I strongly disagree that many men are going to miss the point of using that quote.  It seems loud and clear to me that there’s something deeply wrong with a man who loses his boner when he finds out he’s not going to knock up a casual partner.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  07:34 PM

This is incredibly nitpicking, and I’m not trying to be a jerk here, but on a blog about economic issues by one of the more prominent economists in the United States, I don’t see why that’s a crazy assumption.


Fair enough, and in that context, a lot more forgiveable.  But one thing that I’ve found in blogging is sometimes men who don’t talk about these issues much will get insanely long comment threads when they do stick a toe in and defend women’s rights and dignity.  Because the “hard” political blogging audience is just as obsessed with gender politics as any feminist audience, but they have fewer opportunities to talk about it, so they just go bananas when they do get that opportunity.  If anything, I’m sort of shocked Brad’s post didn’t get more comments, because inevitably there’s a few unrepentant misogynists hanging out in the comments of the Boy Blogs, and a post like that gives them a chance to wax poetic about how much they hate slutty women and why evolution made women like babies more than sex.

See: every time Matt or Ezra defends women, which they do, if not as frequently as say, Atrios.  Matt links to Feministing, and his commenters go fucking apeshit.  But that’s why I’m really uneasy waving off what I think are strong intentions to be feminist allies. If I were Matt or Ezra and I knew what I was getting myself into by writing positively about women’s rights and dignity, I’d probably feel the urge to avoid it altogether.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  07:42 PM

I don’t think the story automatically implies Mr. Douthat can only be happy with a submissive or subservient partner (although that is also consistent with the story, we just don’t know).  It just seems to mean he doesn’t know what he wants.  Doesn’t this happen to young men and women occasionally—chase somebody only to realize it wasn’t what you wanted?

If you read Douthat’s description of the event and didn’t clearly see his disgust and rage directed at the woman, then you really need to do some reading on basic feminist theory and also some introspection.

I’ve been struggling with this idea that we shouldn’t call out our allies for some time.

Everyone fucks up. Genuine allies are grateful when they get called out for it.

Comment #28: PhysioProf  on  03/23  at  07:43 PM

I’m all for calling out and do it all the time.  That’s not the issue. My issue is how you do it.  It’s unfair and untrue that dismiss many liberal male bloggers as pro-feminist men when I know for a fact that they’re supportive of feminist work and write about feminist issues.  Matt used the word “patriarchy” today, after all.  If you start off on the wrong assumption that they’re not our friends, then you’re not going to get through to them.  If you say, look you are a great guy and do good work but this one thing bothered me, you have the benefit of being easier to hear and also you’re telling the truth.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  07:53 PM

Here’s my explanation of the comment difference.  Almost everyone has sex or would like to (I said almost) so they have something to say about sex.  Not everyone understands money or the economy, so fewer people have something substantive to contribute to the conversation.  Lots of blog commenters have been trained out of posting “me too” or “good post” style comments, so comments are not a barometer of how many people are interested in the topic.  A low comment count could mean that fewer people understood the post, or fewer people had something they wanted clarified, or fewer people wanted to disagree with the basic premise of the post.

When someone posts about sex, specifically when it comes to women’s bodily autonomy, everyone is an instant expert (especially when they’re clearly not).  How many of the posts were jagoffs showing up to say something disruptive?  Economic blogs don’t get the same kind of quality trolling that most other blogs get.

Comment #30: Godless Heathen  on  03/23  at  07:56 PM

At the moment ”Fear of Reese Witherspoon Look-Alikes on the Pill” has 116 comments, while ”The Geithner Plan FAQ” has only 89 comments. I confess this leaves me somewhat disappointed: I thought money would be dominating by this point…

Am I the only one who thinks the metrics on this are all wrong?  Since when does “depth of conversation” directly correlate with “number of comments”?  I’ve seen (and been a part of) plenty of comment boards that amounted to

Get bent

Get laid

Blow Me

You’d like that

Eat farts and die!

I wouldn’t call this particularly valuable commentary, even if it does go on for the 27 extra replies necessary to bring a thread from the 89 point functional irrelevancy to the 116 point bastion of discourse.

And that’s not even taking into account the myriad of other variables.  Was there a troll?  What was the time of day?  Was it a weekend?  How long did the thread maintain top billing?

The very notion that sex-blogging is “more popular” than econ-blogging is, I think, fundamentally flawed, at least given the rather thin evidence.  I just don’t know what he’s bitching about.

Comment #31: Zifnab  on  03/23  at  08:00 PM

Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s threatening that the whole male gender will go Galt on us if women aren’t properly submissive.

GO ALREADY!  Just fucking go.  No one will miss you, and maybe, when you realize you’ve been a complete douche, we might let you apologize and return.  Maybe.

That reminds me of the famous Craigslist rant by the “former nice guy” that was fodder for mockery on feminist blogs a while back.  I’m pretty sure it was posted here.

Comment #32: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  08:01 PM

I agree with all of this—the NYT hired a conservative writer, and he was a complete nutjob who hates women.  This is Dog Bites Man, because <i>all conservative writers are complete nutjobs who hate women</a>.  The real story isn’t the story, it’s the fact that it isn’t a story, and that’s a big deal.

Comment #33: Punditus Maximus  on  03/23  at  08:15 PM

As for Douthat, I agree with some of the assertions here that he was making out with a woman, and realized that he wasn’t comfortable with idea of being more intimate with her and latched onto a handy excuse to explain it because the menz are always supposed to be raring to go, knowwhatimean?  That would be forgivable.  But to parlay that into a section of a book where he condemns the use of contraception and blames women who use it for (his) sagging libido is douchebaggery beyond compare.

Comment #34: DonnaDiva  on  03/23  at  08:17 PM

I’m all for calling out and do it all the time.  That’s not the issue. My issue is how you do it.  It’s unfair and untrue that dismiss many liberal male bloggers as pro-feminist men when I know for a fact that they’re supportive of feminist work and write about feminist issues.  Matt used the word “patriarchy” today, after all.  If you start off on the wrong assumption that they’re not our friends, then you’re not going to get through to them.  If you say, look you are a great guy and do good work but this one thing bothered me, you have the benefit of being easier to hear and also you’re telling the truth.

Thank you, Amanda! As a woman who is progressive and a feminist; I really really appreciate that point of view. It’s much needed positivity.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Comment #35: Genine  on  03/23  at  08:24 PM

Amanda, thanks for this post.  You are right about getting more flies with honey, etc.  I am way too vinegar, and have gone apeshit at some of these bloggers as well as liberal activist males I know in real life, especially in the peace movement.

“See: every time Matt or Ezra defends women, which they do, if not as frequently as say, Atrios.  Matt links to Feministing, and his commenters go fucking apeshit.”

Atrios is superb on femism and gender issues.  I don’t consider Ezra or Matt to be even what I would term good.  However, I have not seen Matt link to Femisting and I don’t read them every day, so I definitely could be missing something.  But you mention Matt’s commentors going crazy.  He has some of the most sexist commentors in the liberal blogosphere.  I comment there a couple of times a week, but not every day.  Have you read Atrios’ commentors?  Because they don’t post that kind of shit that goes on over at Ygleasis’ blog.  And I really wonder about that.  Why is Atrios attracting so many non-sexist males, while Matt is attracting the really sexist ones?  Does the blogger set the tone with what he posts, or doesn’t post?

Comment #36: Lady Vader  on  03/23  at  08:25 PM

“It’s a zero-sum game for them.  If women gain power; then men must lose power.  They hate women so, and treat them so badly, that the idea of being treated like a woman is terrifying.  Because that’s what they see happening—look at the quote above.  If women aren’t subjugated and marginalized, then men will be.

The idea that everyone would be treated as a human is too alien for them to grasp.”

It might not even be that, for some of them.  There are a lot of “Give me supremacy, or give me death” type of guys, where the idea of not being in charge is just as bad as the idea of being subjugated, marginalized, or truly abused.  Just the thought of having to negotiate shit with your partner instead of being able to demand it is as infuriating as the thought of having them be able to demand things from you.

Comment #37: preying mantis  on  03/23  at  08:26 PM

Amanda, though, I’ve been reading Matt and Ezra for a long time and to be perfectly honest, I’ve never, ever seen either of them deal honestly and thoroughly with feminist criticism of what they do and how they do it.  When they do that I’ll be less wary of calling them allies, but until then, their silence to me speaks volumes.  I’m sure they’re nice guys, but we need them to be more than nice.  We need them to put their good intentions into practice, and one or two mentions of the word “patriarchy” doesn’t cut it.

I’m not saying we should take the gloves off, but Christ, why are they all out there applauding Douthat’s brilliance?  Why hasn’t one of them qualified their “endorsements”?

Comment #38: Pilgrim Soul  on  03/23  at  08:43 PM

Well, yes, criticize them for it.  I do and did.  I’m just saying that going all, “You’re a sexist and NO DIFFERENT than conservatives” is not the way to go about it, which I do see people doing.  (I don’t think you are, to be clear.)  J. Smooth has a really good video on this.  His basic advice—-avoid saying what people are and stick to what they said—-is something that I think would make these conversations much, much easier.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  08:47 PM

“He has some of the most sexist commentors in the liberal blogosphere.  I comment there a couple of times a week, but not every day. “

He also has a bunch of quite racist commenters. But I doubt his post have attracted them.

Comment #40: _IM_  on  03/23  at  08:47 PM

For the liberal bloggers that get sexist or racist commenters, I don’t think it’s what they post that attracts that kind of crowd. It’s what they don’t post. By not putting something like feminism (or anti-racist activism) front and center and writing about other things, they attract a readership that feels more comfortable in a space where those things aren’t discussed. Which is not to pull a “what you SHOULD write about.” But just that’s how you end up with a readership that is liberal in some ways but doesn’t accept basic tenants most of us here take for granted. In some ways, I think this gets back to the question Amanda had a bit ago about whether Pandagon was a liberal blog or a feminist blog and what that would even mean.

As for the actual number of comments on the posts:

As for it drawing more comments than the Geithner plan, it may well be that many of us feel much more confident opining about a ridiculous asshole like Douthat getting a primo spot in a major media publication than we do about what should be done with toxic CDOs.

This. And speaking even more generally, the vast majority of us are in relationships and have sex and know other people in other relationships having sex with other people. So we all get to have an opinion. Economic policy is a lot trickier. Even if something I read sounds good or sounds not quite right, I’m going to be a lot less likely to weigh in because I just don’t have the chops to really debate it.

Comment #41: chingona  on  03/23  at  09:13 PM

Matt has a bunch of kooky konservative kommenters because he often writes trenchant, liberal political analyses. They insult him, his posts, his intelligence, etc. I see way more posting critical of Matt on his blog than I see of Ezra on his blog, or Amanda here, etc. The idea he is attracting these people by writing conservative talking points or something similar is just silly.

I think the tact Amanda demonstrated here is right. It is a gentle reminder that the sum of politics isn’t just economics and what is typically covered by public policy discussions. I bet it gets heard and thought about by the audience she was addressing.

Comment #42: Don N  on  03/23  at  09:18 PM

“GO ALREADY!  Just fucking go.  No one will miss you, and maybe, when you realize you’ve been a complete douche, we might let you apologize and return.  Maybe. “

Caren, you are my hero.

Comment #43: denelian  on  03/23  at  09:22 PM

Caton, I think it’s somewhat tone-setting, but actually I think it’s a matter of how a blogger gets regulars.  Atrios set up an explicitly liberal blog with a hearty fuck-you attitude.  Matt was writing for a magazine that had more conservative voices than liberal ones, so he pulled from that group as well.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  09:31 PM

Policy wonking is also the kind of field that’s subject to a fair amount of macho tripping.

Comment #45: paul  on  03/23  at  09:47 PM

Sexblogging.. Who knew? I feel new.. LOL
Do they have twittersex? If you can build it, some twisted fucker will find a way to beat-off to it.

Comment #46: Nix  on  03/23  at  09:51 PM

I see way more posting critical of Matt on his blog than I see of Ezra on his blog

Although that recent anti-semitism kerfuffle…damn.

Policy wonking is also the kind of field that’s subject to a fair amount of macho tripping.

QFT.

Comment #47: Auguste  on  03/23  at  10:01 PM

“Matt was writing for a magazine that had more conservative voices than liberal ones, so he pulled from that group as well. “

That’s a good point, and I hadn’t considered it.  That definitely would explain at least some, maybe most, of his commenters.  Because sometimes I can’t believe some of the crap they post.

Comment #48: Lady Vader  on  03/23  at  10:10 PM

Thanks, Amanda, for a fabulous post.  This one has me thinking a lot.  Your desire to make this about what people say rather than what people are is profoundly helpful in reorienting the discussion.  Obama can make a joke about Special Olympics and, damn, I just shudder at that, but it isn’t about who he is, it is about a stupid thing he said.  You _have_ to point out this shit to make people see it, but it makes a lot of men uncomfortable.  This isn’t about “gotcha.”  It’s about thinking through the deeply ingrained biases and modes of thought.

Comment #49: nashe  on  03/23  at  11:21 PM

I’m all for calling out and do it all the time.  That’s not the issue. My issue is how you do it.  It’s unfair and untrue that dismiss many liberal male bloggers as pro-feminist men when I know for a fact that they’re supportive of feminist work and write about feminist issues.  Matt used the word “patriarchy” today, after all.  If you start off on the wrong assumption that they’re not our friends, then you’re not going to get through to them.  If you say, look you are a great guy and do good work but this one thing bothered me, you have the benefit of being easier to hear and also you’re telling the truth.

Let me also say that I think this comment by Amanda is key.  No one is the “perfect” progressive; I don’t mean that as an excuse for people’s behavior, but rather to say that we all fall short in some way.  When I criticize someone who is, on the whole, an ally, I always try to remember that I’m just as susceptible to error as that person and hence just as open to criticism.

Comment #50: Linnaeus  on  03/24  at  01:07 AM

Nashe:  “...I just shudder at that, but it isn’t about who he is, it is about a stupid thing he said.You _have_ to point out this shit to make people see it, but it makes a lot of men uncomfortable. “

It seems to me that pointing out that someone said something stupid makes a lot of women uncomfortable to.  Thinking that such discomfort is confined to men might be an example of “...deeply ingrained biases and modes of thought;” though maybe you meant something else.

Comment #51: shawn214  on  03/24  at  01:44 AM

Pointing out that ‘someone’ said ‘something stupid’ is one thing, and depends on the someone and the something.  Pointing out that ‘someone who just got hired to write a twice-weekly column for the New York Times’ says ‘lots of stuff that is viciously anti-woman in what seem to be attempts to bolster his own masculinity’ is maybe a bit different, yes?  Or does that make you uncomfortable?

Comment #52: kaninchen  on  03/24  at  01:52 AM

As I understand it, Douhat decided to mock a woman he’d been physically involved with for her appearance. That’s not just misogynist, that’s what we used to call “unbecoming of a gentleman.”  And maybe that’s a patriarchal concept in itself, but I think, in pre-feminst times, it was the most elegant language people had to express the concept “What a dick.”

Comment #53: typist  on  03/24  at  02:00 AM

Let me also say that I think this comment by Amanda is key.  No one is the “perfect” progressive; I don’t mean that as an excuse for people’s behavior, but rather to say that we all fall short in some way.

When I start thinking about getting all self-righteous with an otherwise reasonable male liberal who’s just said something stupid about gender, I stop and remember all of the times I’ve said really stupid shit about race thanks to my extremely sheltered white suburban childhood.  I’m in no position to start attacking someone on his blind spots as though I have none of my own. 

It helps keep things reasonable to remember that I, too, am a dumbass sometimes.

Comment #54: Mnemosyne  on  03/24  at  03:07 AM

Okay, this post has been sticking in my craw all evening.  Not Amanda’s post so much, but Douthat’s bizarre assessment of his drunken make-out session with a fellow college student.  I say ‘drunken’ because it’s important.  A lot of men use a woman’s drinking as an excuse to take advantage of her sexually.  Douthat was less concerned with his date’s inebriation than he was with his boredom with her and the fact that she disclosed that she was using contraception.  What is he saying, really?  “I don’t care if the bitch is drunk as long as I can knock her up!”  And then what?  Dump her because she’s a floozy?  It’s like the most exciting element of the situation was the possibility of ruining her life

89 kinds of fucked up and an indication that the NYT made a very bad call in selecting him to be a columnist. 

I second typist’s assessment:  “What a dick”

Comment #55: DonnaDiva  on  03/24  at  03:25 AM

In my ongoing effort to be relentlessly honest with the Pandagon readers, I’d like to say that although I hardly consider myself vanilla, I came back to this post at least 20 times to read the comments before I finally realized how the image Amanda chose related to sexblogging.

Comment #56: Auguste  on  03/24  at  03:34 AM

a lot of men, especially Republicans, are so used to being treated like they’re smart because they’re white men that they never actually bothered to develop any intelligence.

Reminds me of last week’s 30 Rock.

Comment #57: keshmeshi  on  03/24  at  04:13 AM

I don’t understand why that commenter thinks women can do so many things that men can’t do.  We can menstruate, but I don’t think men want the ability to do that.  And we can have babies, but we still can’t do that without a man co-operating for at least 15 minutes.  It’s even technically possible for men to breastfeed under the right circumstances.  Other than that, what else can women do that men can’t?  Also, even if half of all people can’t do something, that doesn’t make you very special, since half of people can still do what you do it.  Instead of making men or women feel valuable, we should care more about making individuals feel valuable.  If this particular commenter would try to excel at is career or start a charity, he’d be valuable to society.  That doesn’t require that half of people give up their opportunity to do those things.  I’d think it’s extremely silly to say that since women can have babies and men biologically can’t, that men should get to pick something that they can do and women socially aren’t allowed to do.

Freud got it all wrong when he said that women have “penis envy”; it’s the reverse.  I think that some men have “womb envy” because they are afraid that no woman willingly have a child with them.  It’s amazing how much misogyny boils down to simple insecurity.

Comment #58: bananacat  on  03/24  at  09:22 AM

Oh, jesus, the “tone argument.” Yes, we must by all means make sure the poor, beleaguered darlings aren’t offended at all when we point out that they’ve fucked up.

GMAFB.

Comment #59: Nobody in Particular  on  03/24  at  09:59 AM

Ross was unable to get it up, so he blames it on the dirty, dirty whore who got in bed with him, and then asks for our sympathy.

The i-bankers were unable to get it together, so they blame it on the dirty, dirty borrowers who got in bed with them, and ask for our sympathy.

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  10:16 AM

I can understand that activists get annoyed at the ‘tone’ argument, but it’s based on a real conundrum/dilemna that arises in radical politics. If the system (whether you’re arguing against patriarchy or capitalism or whathaveyou, the argument is similar) has made it so that only discourse that engages it under its own assumptions and axioms is ‘polite’, it is because this gives you a fool’s choice between :

a) agreeing with the underlying premises by ‘toning down’ your discourse, thus perpetuating the system by not questionning its bases
b) alienating yourself from potential allies and being rendered powerless to make social change, perpetuating the system through lack of an effective pushback

I don’t see it as particularly helpful for any person, who is forced to choose between strategy A and strategy B, to have an issue with people who picked the other strategy, given that both of these have been declawed per the workings of a self-perpetuating system. This divide is the debating equivalent of the violence/non-violence divide. ‘Toning down’ the discourse in the context of that particular argument is to use only non-violent methods…

This is why anarchists call for diversity of tactics. Each situation is unique and at any given time either of these strategies might be superior to the other.

Comment #61: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  11:05 AM

In my ongoing effort to be relentlessly honest with the Pandagon readers, I’d like to say that although I hardly consider myself vanilla, I came back to this post at least 20 times to read the comments before I finally realized how the image Amanda chose related to sexblogging.

If it makes you feel any better, without your assistance, I would never I have seen it at all. I thought that meant sisterhood is powerful.

Comment #62: chingona  on  03/24  at  11:18 AM

Kaninchen: “Or does that make you uncomfortable?”

Not at all.  That was my perhaps badly made point: the criticism is necessary and important, especially when directed at those whom we consider allies.  When I was 20, I held a lot of ingrained, unexamined and problematic assumptions about gender in addition to a lot of things.  It was often “uncomfortable” to be critiqued and disabused of those, but it was important and beneficial.  Now I’m a lot older and (I hope) have a better understanding, but that doesn’t mean I won’t still make mistakes and shouldn’t still be held accountable.

Mnemosyne’s comment above more directly expresses the point.  We aren’t perfect, but we only get better by being called out on things, and the act of calling us out should not be reduced to “self-righteousness” and therefore more easily dismissed.

Comment #63: nashe  on  03/24  at  11:26 AM

Nobody, I’m glad it makes you feel better to call men who actually give a shit sexists and no better than conservatives, but I’m saying it’s not useful. I really do recommend watching that J. Smooth video.  It’s a question of whether or not you want to be a) truthful and b) effective or if you want to lash out ineffectively, which might make you feel better but has no advantages, productivity-wise.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  11:36 AM

kan, I don’t really understand your point.  I do think busting out both guns on Ross Douthat is relevant—-he is a bona fide misogynist prick, and a lost cause.  I’m not saying that at all.  I’m saying that it is useful and based in evidence to differ between genuinely feminist guys who make easy mistakes (like the ones above) from blatant misogynists like Douthat.  I spit on Douthat and his hatred of women.  I don’t see your point.

Comment #65: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  11:38 AM

Great post, Amanda, but as a quasi-libertarian feminist I feel like I have to defend libertarianism a little bit here. Seems to me that culturally, feminism and libertarianism overlap a lot. Certainly when it comes to reproductive rights that’s the case - feminists and libertarians both believe that what a woman does with her body ought to be her own damn business. For a further example, the idea that a woman should be able to wear whatever she wants without having violence visited upon her seems like a libertarian idea as well. And so on.

Certainly from an economic standpoint libertarianism and feminism are frequently at odds, but I’d still hesitate to call libertarianism “anti-feminist.” A libertarian feminist might respond that the problem with a patriarchal society is that men (and women) with conservative gender roles have too many avenues of power that they can use to inflict those roles upon women, and the best way to combat this for good is to eliminate these avenues of power altogether…

Comment #66: Jeff  on  03/24  at  11:39 AM

Auguste, it’s the feminist power fist.  I don’t think it has much to do with vanilla….

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  11:39 AM

Jeff, most Rand-reading libertarians I meet are anti-choice.  They make an exception for women’s rights, every time.  In fact, that’s what draws a lot of libertarian men to the philosophy.  I think there’s a genuine belief that the government is out to emasculate them by protecting women’s rights.  They aren’t wrong that the government does have to step in and offer protection against the patriarchy—-the high levels of rape, domestic violence, and discrimination prove that.  The government isn’t very good at it, but they’re paranoid, I guess.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  11:43 AM

The problem of Libertarianism is that it is anything BUT libertarian. It’s becoming a lot harder to express myself as a ‘libertarian socialist’ without people misunderstanding, so from now on I’ll use the original French (libertaire socialist) which was coined by left-wingers, and leave the corrupted English version of the term to the Propertarians/gLibertarians to abuse as they see fit.

Comment #69: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  11:47 AM

Auguste, it’s the feminist power fist.  I don’t think it has much to do with vanilla….

I know. I was sort of reverse-trolling myself, [which is also not very vanilla, I must say, ba-dum.] It was late at night and I was punchy.

Comment #70: Auguste  on  03/24  at  11:52 AM

So-called left libertarians need to give up the dream that is that word.  It’s over.  Ron Paul was the nail in that particular coffin.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  11:53 AM

Sure, politesse can be and is integral to discourse, and to potentially swaying someone who is ambivalent, ignorant or apathetic on an issue over to your ‘side’. Personally the tone of my response is different when I’m correcting an aged family member on using ‘Oriental’ vs ‘Asian’ than it is if a peer says something casually, brutally racist.

But anger and self-righteousness have their place, and their uses. Particularly when it comes to an oppressed class responding to those who rule it. Yes, “men who actually give a shit” are potential feminist allies. But they still benefit from privilege, they’ve still been basted in the same sexist, racist culture we all have. Sometimes a big “Fuck off, if you want my respect on this issue, earn it” is a rational, healthy response. Especially with our peers.

Otherwise, if we must all be patient and civil all the time, we’re still just the nice ladies begging sweetly for a place at the table.

Comment #72: mir  on  03/24  at  11:59 AM

Well, Paul was a right-libertarian who just happened to pull a lot of support from left-libertarians out of default. After the truth about his staff’s racist rantings came out, pretty much every left-lib I know abandoned ship.

Jeff, most Rand-reading libertarians I meet are anti-choice.

There’s a difference between Rand’s objectivism (executive summary: I’m right, you’re wrong, nanny nanny boo boo) and libertarianism in general. There are several different motivations for becoming a libertarian - many libertarians have adopted the philosophy because they feel that the greatest good for the most people is done by government staying out of the way in most cases. Clearly you have met others whose motivations are very different. So perhaps it’s a subset of libertarians that are anti-feminist, and not all libertarians in general?

Comment #73: Jeff  on  03/24  at  12:16 PM

I don’t like it any more than anyone else that Republicans can squeak out electoral victories by scaring people about gay marriage, abortion, and Title IX, but that they can shouldn’t be that surprising, really.  Because these issues are important.  How many children you have, who does the majority of the housework, who gets to make the final decisions in a family—-these things all matter to people as much as the economy.  In a sense, they are economic issues, since much of anti-feminism is about getting women to do more work for less money to benefit men.  But it’s also about something that’s profoundly important to people: identity and the sense of self.

I think probably the most valuable part of this blog for me has been all the arguments for exactly this point. I have sometimes tended to dismiss ‘culture war’ issues as being part of an ancient, baffling, seemingly crazy and intractable conflict, and to focus on other things. It is valuable that you point out the logic within the madness, the goals, strategy and tactics of both sides, and the reasons this conflict ought to be considered as central, in its own way, as the struggles to end wars, or for economic justice. A very good argument could be made that the relation between maleness and femaleness is more deeply important than the relationship between states, or between the social classes.

Comment #74: atheist  on  03/24  at  12:26 PM

But anger and self-righteousness have their place, and their uses. Particularly when it comes to an oppressed class responding to those who rule it. Yes, “men who actually give a shit” are potential feminist allies. But they still benefit from privilege, they’ve still been basted in the same sexist, racist culture we all have. Sometimes a big “Fuck off, if you want my respect on this issue, earn it” is a rational, healthy response. Especially with our peers.

I don’t disagree; anger at inequality, injustice, etc. is well-justified.  Different people communicate in different ways and you need these varied approaches.  To me, though, there’s a difference between harshly criticizing a peer or ally and saying they’re not an ally.  Sometimes when you consider a person’s views and actions in their totality, you see they aren’t a peer after all.  That’s different from someone who screws up from time to time.  Even something like “fuck off, earn my respect” carries with it the implication that the critic is willing to look for improvement.

Mmemosyne expressed my own mindset when I enter discussions like these:  especially when dealing with peers/allies, I try to keep in mind my own errors.  Put another way, if I’m going to dish it out, I better be ready to take it in.  I’m not saying we have to soft-pedal our arguments or that people don’t sometimes deserve a metaphorical smack to the forehead.

Comment #75: Linnaeus  on  03/24  at  12:30 PM

pull a lot of support from left-libertarians out of default

I haven’t seen any of this left-libertarians support for Ron Paul, unless again we’re discussing the left-wing of the Libertarian party rather than the genuine libertarian left, for whom cries of ‘Socialism!’ usually are replied to with ‘Yes we are, want to make a deal of it?’.

But there are lots of people who have a tough time differentiating socialism and populism (and some people got a book deal out of that ignorance, aka Jonah Goldberg).

Comment #76: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  12:50 PM

I’m amused at how many people seem to think I’ve got a problem calling out liberal men in a post where I call out liberal men.  Sorry, it’s just odd.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  12:51 PM

Jeff, I disgree that there’s a difference.  The true meaning of the word is located in the consensus use of it.  You may get nit-picky and say, for instance, that a collection of various grasses and weeds that I just mow over isn’t a lawn, because you define lawns as being these things that were created by laying sod.  But most people are going to call it a lawn, and so it is a lawn.

Comment #78: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  12:54 PM

I’ve actually had dudes tell me that I shouldn’t play hockey because men need to be able to do things women can’t do. They think puking blood out of your crotch once a month is so fucking awesome that it doesn’t leave room for any more awesomeness in your life. Well guys, it sure ain’t liquid gold that’s coming out of my vagina. Yes, I have a uterus. Get the fuck over it, weirdos.

Comment #79: Entomologista  on  03/24  at  01:09 PM

Personally, I cringe whenever I see the “women and men are differ-ENT” argument bandied about.  We’re one of the least sexually dimorphic species around.  Adjustments for muscle mass, body type, and so forth are completely irrelevant given the narrow range of abilities.  The most critical organ which differentiates humans from other species is our brain, and in that there’s no significant difference between men and women.  None.  Pretty much everything beyond babies and periods is all cultural.

I think that’s where the constructs break.  It’s essential for many people to hold the difference-between-men-and-women line hard; every challenge to it is shattering.  In many ways the obvious sexist asses are the easiest to deal with - the Quiverfull movement, for example - because the average person looks at that and feels squicky about the basic arguments.  No, the ones which are more irriating are the semi-scientific ones which “feel” right, the Men-are-Mars-Women-are-Venus discussions where social constructs are taken as givens, not as creations.  “Gee, chicks dig shoes ‘cause they gathered berries in the veldt” sort of arguments back-project current acculturation to the unknowable past.

As for me?  I’m a flawed person, as stuck in the mire of my upbringing and culture as anyone else.  I’ll never be able to “feel the pain” of others no matter how touchy-feely empathic I’d like to be.  I can’t speak FOR my wife or other women, but I can LISTEN to them and learn.  That’s about it - and try to do my best not to influence my daughter to make choices because of the lingering cultural baggage I know I’m carrying around.

Comment #80: tannenburg  on  03/24  at  01:22 PM

Certainly from an economic standpoint libertarianism and feminism are frequently at odds, but I’d still hesitate to call libertarianism “anti-feminist.”

The problem is, the most hardcore and prominent libertarians are so narrowly focused on the economic aspect that not only do they brush aside the social aspects as “nice to have, but not central,” but also their viewpoint that every bloody activity, including male-female relationships, is a financial transaction leads to some extremely misogynistic views. Amanda has chronicled numerous examples of these, but those hilarious Randian personal ads she posted a while back are a good, if extreme, example of the general mindset at work.

Worse yet, the most prominent voices of economic libertarianism in America are actually Rotarian Socialist/crony-capitalist ones, rather than real Austrian School stuff. The broader and more intellectually honest points of view you see in places like Reason magazine are not what comes to mind when you look at most pundits who profess “libertarian” leanings.

Comment #81: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  01:23 PM

Gracchus, I guess I’m a little warped then - most of my libertarian friends are in the Reason/Cato crowd, so that’s what I think of when I think of libertarian…

And the idea of Randian personal ads sounds hilariously awesome. I’m gonna have to look that up.

Comment #82: Jeff  on  03/24  at  01:33 PM

Gracchus, I guess I’m a little warped then - most of my libertarian friends are in the Reason/Cato crowd, so that’s what I think of when I think of libertarian…

It’s not that you’re warped, it’s just that your friends are (somewhat) more intellectually honest than the short-sighted greedpig clowns that are the mainstream face of American Libertarianism. If you want that perception changed (specifically on the issue of anti-feminism), that’s more your task than Amanda’s.

And the idea of Randian personal ads sounds hilariously awesome. I’m gonna have to look that up.

Here’s the link:

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/objectivists_seeking_love/

Comment #83: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  01:43 PM

I don’t think Amanda or anyone who agrees with her is saying that liberal men should not be called out for what they do. Amanda just did it in her post. It’s good to call out our allies if they slip up because we all slip up. I think how we communicate with our allies is important.

My communications style with people depends on the individual. There is a huge range of communication options between “Fuck off you racist/misogynistic/homophobic pig!” and “Could you please not say that? Pretty, pretty, pretty please with a cherry on top?” The former is highly appropriate for someone like Ross Douhat and the latter isn’t appropriate at all.

Communication isn’t limited to those two choices.

Comment #84: Genine  on  03/24  at  01:44 PM

The true meaning of the word is located in the consensus use of it.

If that were true, then the word ‘atheist’ would mean “evil meanie childkiller communist”. And I wouldn’t be laughing my head off at people trying to have us all refer to each other as ‘Brights’.

“Libertaire” was coined by anarchists. Anarchists have always historically been part of the socialist movement, until Rothbard tried to coopt the word by removing all sort of historical context from it. Libertarian was a translation. It means anti-authoritarian, and if anyone is trying to tell me that property (in the ‘capital’ sense of the word, rather than in the ‘private possessions’ sense) is an anti-authoritarian concept, I have to disagree vehemently.

Now I’m willing to say that I think recuperating the word is out of our hands because it’s been corrupted beyond repair, but I’m not going to say that the *real meaning* is the one that was created by the purposeful throwing out of any sort of historical context to the Memory Hole.

Comment #85: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  02:00 PM

Good luck with that, Black.  I’m going to continue to use libertarian with the meaning understood by most people who read this blog.  By the way, most of those people don’t understand “atheist” in the way that you describe.  I think there’s a value to reclaiming some words, but you have to pick your battles.

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/24  at  02:06 PM

Gracchus:

The problem is, the most hardcore and prominent libertarians are so narrowly focused on the economic aspect that not only do they brush aside the social aspects as “nice to have, but not central,” but also their viewpoint that every bloody activity, including male-female relationships, is a financial transaction leads to some extremely misogynistic views.

Could you tell me who, specifically, you’re thinking of when you mention “the most hardcore and prominent libertarians”? (Obviously, I don’t need an exhaustive list, but some representative examples would help.) It’s easy to talk about your impression of amorphous groups, but I suspect that discussing specific people might be productive for mutual understanding. In part because I also suspect that your list of “the most hardcore and prominent libertarians” might be different from the list that people who are more directly involved in the libertarian movement would offer.

Comment #87: Rad Geek  on  03/24  at  02:12 PM

Which leaves a bit of a problem: reject patriarchy and you’ll get male detachment.

Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s threatening that the whole male gender will go Galt on us if women aren’t properly submissive.

I believe he is saying that if the women don’t play nice he will takes his balls and go home. :D

(Yeah, I’ve got nothing constructive to add today.)

Comment #88: Bagelsan  on  03/24  at  02:28 PM

I am often snarly of late, and my aim is often poor.  My apologies.

Comment #89: kaninchen  on  03/24  at  02:30 PM

... why conservative men are so damn jealous of women’s reproductive and sexual functions, ...the belief that half the human race needs to be subjected to violence, coercion, and abuse to keep us as a permanent underclass so the other half can feel good about itself.

The hallmark of the conservative male is his insecurities. Most conservative men are beta (or lower) males. Powerless in real life, they adopt the positions of their superiors, hoping they will be credited with their power. This is how an unlicensed plumber’s apprentice can adopt the concerns of those who make more than five times what he does. That’s why the middle class IT drone identifies with Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. (Also why small children are fascinated with dinosaurs; creatures powerful enough to devour their parents with one gulp.) Anything that threatens the conservative male’s illusion of being in control, threatens the core of his being.

And face it: if a man feels impotent in his daily life, he will hardly be able to get it up in the bedroom, unless his partner carefully feeds his ego by maximizing her submissiveness. The hussy in the Douthat story was the aggressor; no wonder his little winky winked out of existence. Thus conservatves cannot simultaneously have sex and apply the basic definition of feminism—only treating the woman as if she were sub human would allow him to maintain his erection.

Insecurity also explains why so many conservatives own SUVs, and why the doubling of gas prices last summer caused them to flock to McCain, lured by his mantra of “Drill Baby Drill!” They would feel naked in a Prius, vulnerable as a slug. Here’s a clip from the Washington Monthly’s review of Bradsher’s High and Mighty: SUVs :

According to market research conducted by the country’s leading automakers, Bradsher reports, SUV buyers tend to be “insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors and communities. They are more restless, more sybaritic, and less social than most Americans are. They tend to like fine restaurants a lot more than off-road driving, seldom go to church and have limited interest in doing volunteer work to help others.”

He says, too, that SUV drivers generally don’t care about anyone else’s kids but their own, are very concerned with how other people see them rather than with what’s practical, and they tend to want to control or have control over the people around them.

Comment #90: Hector B.  on  03/24  at  04:09 PM

I suspect that discussing specific people might be productive for mutual understanding. In part because I also suspect that your list of “the most hardcore and prominent libertarians” might be different from the list that people who are more directly involved in the libertarian movement would offer.

First, I’m talking about public perception by non-libertarians, here, not wonks or insiders. In other words, I’m talking about the people we see on TV, in newspapers, in books, in politics, in public protests, in the A-list blogosphere, in Pandagon’s comment section—people who claim “My politics? I’m a more of an independent libertarian at heart” because it sounds a lot better than saying they belong to the GOP.

So I’m talking about the Libertarian Party (the dopes who put on those pathetic protest stunts). I’m talking about the Free-Stater and “Going Galt” fantasists. I’m talking about “goldbug” hucksters and “I kin go it alone” survivalists and NRA executives. I’m talking about every dickhead pundit on CNBC (e.g Rick Santelli) and Fox News (too many to name) who waves around his copy of Atlas Shrugged and decries any government interference in the so-called “free” market as the bloody Road to Serfdom. I’m talking about the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal (as well as its new owner). I’m talking about Charles Murray and Ron Paul, who use their libertarianism as a cover or justification for racism and xenophobic populism. I’m talking about bloggers like Instapundit who style themselves as libertarians. And, in our own little corner of the blogosphere, I’m talking about commenters like “middleagedliberal” and the fool who defended “upskirt” porn, who show up a lot more often with economic libertarian justifications for misogyny (and MRA and evo-psych) than do thoughtful commenters like Jeff and yourself.

Now you may argue these aren’t “true” libertarians (or Scotsmen, if you will), and I’d even agree (they’re more incomplete libertarians). But they call themselves that (at least insofar as economic issues are concerned) and they’re readily accepted by their audiences and presenters as such. So while someone from Cato may pop up now and again as a panel guest or opinion piece writer, or I might happily link to a particularly well-written piece on reason.com, or recommend a Hernando de Soto lecture, the fact remains that this is not what most Americans think of when the word “libertarian” is spoken or claimed.

Economic libertarianism has been co-opted by a variety of conservatives and Objectivists to justify their own programmes. Meanwhile, arguments for social libertarianism (e.g. drug legalisation, gay marriage, feminism) are left in the hands of self-identified liberals or progressives or anarchists—with little support (and often outright hostility) from people who call themselves libertarians. So to express “concern” that someone like Amanda is mischaracterising libertarianism is ignoring the real culprits who’ve appropriated and debased the label.

So there are some specific names and organisations.  Now let’s hear your list of prominent mainstream representatives of more intellectually honest and broad-based libertarianism in the popular mind. The only ones who come close in my mind are the late Robert Heinlein, who’s seen mainly as a SF writer but is sometimes used as a touchstone, and Rockwell and Rothbard, who are about as well known as Radley Balko or Matt Welch. I guess you can throw Friedman and Greenspan in there, although that’s not going to help your case much—those who refer to them don’t really care about social libertarianism, either.

Comment #91: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  04:11 PM

Gracchus - you actually named two of who I think of when I think of libertarianism - Balko (whose blog I read religiously) and Welch. Throw in Nick Gillespie and Megan McArdle for good measure. Here in NC we have Mike Munger, who seems reasonable as our politicians go. All of them address social issues and economic issues from the same small-gov direction and recognize the importance of the former, though clearly they all have their specializations. (Balko on police malfeasance and the drug war, for example.) Rockwell and Rothbard are racist hacks, IMHO, who use libertarianism as a shield for their hate.

But yeah, if you asked 100 different people who they thought of when you mention “libertarianism,” you’d probably get 90 different responses, and Barry Goldwater might be the only one mentioned multiple times - and Goldwater’s not much of a libertarian. Perhaps you’re right that libertarianism has become something of a floating signifier in the popular imagination, leaving it open to the sort of corruption you mention. However, the word has real meaning, and that real meaning is important. To say that the public thinks of Glenn Reynolds when they think of libertarian isn’t to say that Reynolds is a better rep of the philosophy than Radley Balko. It’s to say that most people don’t know what they’re talking about on this subject.

Man, I have no idea if what I just wrote makes sense or not.

Comment #92: Jeff  on  03/24  at  05:20 PM

I’m sorry, but the libertarian failure to bolt the Republican Party during the Bush power abuses simply puts the lie to the idea that there is a libertarian “philosophy” other than support for already-extant power structures in the hope of being thrown a financial bone occasionally.

There is no such thing as libertarianism.  It’s window-dressing for selfishness and power worship.  People who think otherwise will figure it out eventually.

Comment #93: Punditus Maximus  on  03/24  at  06:08 PM

Gracchus - you actually named two of who I think of when I think of libertarianism - Balko (whose blog I read religiously) and Welch. Throw in Nick Gillespie and Megan McArdle for good measure. Here in NC we have Mike Munger, who seems reasonable as our politicians go.

I like Gillespie, and don’t know enough about Munger to comment. I’m not particularly impressed with McCardle—her libertarianism is based in large part on pre-existing privilege, and allows the economic aspect to overshadow the social one. And, because he came to mind in another thread, I’d add John Taylor Gatto to the list of libertarians I respect.

But (again) I’m talking about public perception by non-libertarians, and these people don’t appear on the general public’s radar like the others do.

if you asked 100 different people who they thought of when you mention “libertarianism,” you’d probably get 90 different responses, and Barry Goldwater might be the only one mentioned multiple times - and Goldwater’s not much of a libertarian.

I disagree with your main contention. If you asked 100 people were average Americans, 90 of them would mumble something about free ‘Murkin markets and the damned interfering government and then cite one of those “incomplete libertarians” I mentioned above in support of that view.

Goldwater (and to a lesser extent Wm. F. Buckley) falls into the same category as Heinlein—they are no longer the first names people think of in connection with what are thought to be the core precepts of libertarianism.

To say that the public thinks of Glenn Reynolds when they think of libertarian isn’t to say that Reynolds is a better rep of the philosophy than Radley Balko. It’s to say that most people don’t know what they’re talking about on this subject.

Very true. So it seems that you Reason-able libertarians have a big perception problem on your hands. But defending your political philosophy from Amanda (who’s likely a social libertarian herself) doesn’t get to the root cause of that problem. You want to defend libertarianism from a link with misogyny, your more effective course is to take it back from those who made that link possible and all too plausible.

Comment #94: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  07:12 PM

Punditus Maximus:

I’m sorry, but the libertarian failure to bolt the Republican Party during the Bush power abuses [...]

What about libertarians who were never in the Republican Party to begin with?

If you’re starting out by using the word “libertarian” to mean the smaller-government types and “fiscal conservatives” within the GOP, well, then, I agree that there is little or no consistent philosophy behind what those people say or do, other than apologia for a certain subset of actually-existing power structures (e.g. softer or harder versions of bail-out capitalism, American nationalism, patriarchy, white supremacy,  and law-‘n’-orderist violence against immigrants and minorities).

I would like it, though, if you recognize that other people might use the word differently, and, in particular, that many self-identified libertarians use it very differently from the way that you’re using it.

Comment #95: Rad Geek  on  03/24  at  09:41 PM

Gracchus:

First, I’m talking about public perception by non-libertarians, here, not wonks or insiders. In other words, I’m talking about the people we see on TV, in newspapers, in books, in politics, in public protests, in the A-list blogosphere, in Pandagon’s comment section [...]

Why?

I mean, this is all very interesting as a discussion of, for example, why libertarians might have a public image problem among self-identified liberals and progressives. But the conversation began with some remarks that were supposed to offer insight into the motives behind libertarianism as a political movement, and it seems to me like if that’s the goal, then it would be far more useful to consider insiders’ perspectives on who the movement is and what they do then an impressionistic survey of what “public perception” (or the perception of liberal or progressive bloggers) indicates about a grab-bag of people who have nothing really in common even with each other (e.g. Lew Rockwell, Radley Balko, Bob Barr, the NRA, orthodox Objectivists, and nWo-conspiracy theory survivalists). I don’t expect people who aren’t libertarians to follow much, or to care much, about the different origins, or different views, or weird internecine feuds that go around within the libertarian movement, but I would suggest that not knowing about them will undermine the insightfulness of analysis about what libertarians as a group really care about or what motivates them. I mention this not only as a libertarian but also as a radical feminist—as someone, specifically, who’s spent more than enough time for one life trying to deal with the bizarre notions that people concoct about the motives, goals, and intellectual structure of feminism based on “public perception” and some random grab-bag of figures that happen to have popped up in the malestream media (say Gloria Steinem, Kim Gandy, Hillary Clinton, something they saw on TV once about the Miss America protests, and maybe something that they heard at a party once about a column that somebody once wrote about Catharine MacKinnon). Having tried to have these discussions in the past, I have invariably found that they tell you a lot more about TV, newspapers, books, political debate, and the A-list blogosphere than they tell you about feminism. And I think that the same is true of libertarianism.

As for my own list: you originally asked for “the most hardcore and prominent libertarians;” now you’re asking for “prominent mainstream representatives of more intellectually honest and broad-based libertarianism in the popular mind.” These seem to be different requests, since the first one stressed being ideologically “hardcore” and the second one now stresses being “mainstream,” even though the most mainstream views are typically quite different from the most “hardcore” views. Be that as it may, I would say that if you’re looking for representative examples of libertarianism, for the purpose of understanding libertarian motives (rather than, say, understanding the selection biases that determine which libertarians are most likely to get heard in public debate), I’d suggest some of the following: Will Wilkinson, Kerry Howley, Radley Balko, Lew Rockwell, Sheldon Richman, Roderick Long, Brad Spangler, Kevin Carson, Carol Moore, William Gillis, and, if we’re going to throw dead people into the mix, there’s also Karl Hess, Murray Rothbard, Bob LeFevre, Benjamin Tucker, Voltairine de Cleyre, Lysander Spooner, Isabel Paterson, Rose Wilder Lane, and (God help us all) Ayn Rand. (I am not at all a fan of Ayn Rand, and I wish she were less representative of libertarian thought than she is, but if you think that she is narrowly concerned with economic issues to the exclusion of any other issues of social or cultural import, then I wonder how much of her work you’ve read.)

Comment #96: Rad Geek  on  03/24  at  09:47 PM

[...] Note that the people I named are all very different people, with very different takes on libertarianism and on broader cultural issues. Most of the ones I’ve mentioned are people I’d consider to be on the right side of the broader cultural and social issues that they write about; others I consider to be mixed bags at best or open enemies at worst (how bad Rockwell gets depends a lot on the subject that he’s writing about; one some subjects he can get very, very bad). Maybe some of these people don’t count as “prominent” or “mainstream”; I’m sure that several of them don’t count as “in the popular mind.” Many of them are prominent only among libertarians and are not known by much of anyone else; some of them are prominent only among certain groups of libertarians (e.g. most libertarian anarchists know something about Roderick Long, Lew Rockwell, and William Gillis; very few minimal-statists, Constitutionalists, or whatever know much of anything about any of them, unless they found out about Lew Rockwell through his anti-war work or his work in the Ron Paul campaign). But, again, if the discussion is about libertarianism rather than about the popular mind I’d question which selection criteria are the most relevant here—prominence and deference among libertarians, or prominence and deference among outsiders looking in. I certainly agree with you that if the contours of your experiences with self-identified libertarians are set by what you see in the mass media or on the blogs you read, then you’ll get a lot of people who are heavily focused on economics, maybe on civil liberties a little, and on not much of anything else. (For one thing, libertarian economists are some of the only libertarians whose views are ever printed in major newspapers or solicited by the television news; hence the outsize influence of, for example, Milton Friedman.) But I would like to suggest that there is more going on in libertarianism, as a political and intellectual movement, than what you are likely to see emphasized in the venues that you mention.

Comment #97: Rad Geek  on  03/24  at  09:48 PM

Why?

Why? Because that’s the context Amanda is discussing this issue within. She’s not talking about internal philosophical debates, she’s talking about public displays.

But the conversation began with some remarks that were supposed to offer insight into the motives behind libertarianism as a political movement.

No, she’s offering insights into what attracts misogynists and her patented NiceGuys® (long story; basically bright passive-agressive mopes) to the prevalent mainstream form of economics-focused libertarianism.

it seems to me like if that’s the goal, then it would be far more useful to consider insiders’ perspectives on who the movement is and what they do then an impressionistic survey of what “public perception”

Which “insiders”? The comparitively small group of libertarians who read Reason, understand who some of the people on your list are, and see beyond the economic facet? Or the much larger group of self-professed libertarians who are beta-grade Gordon Geckos looking to save their future imaginary millions from the tax man?

I don’t expect people who aren’t libertarians to follow much, or to care much, about the different origins, or different views, or weird internecine feuds that go around within the libertarian movement

You’d be wrong in that expectation. While I flirted with libertarianism when I was younger, and have long abandoned it as an all-encompassing philosophy, I still find those feuds fascinating and informative. But that makes me a wonk, along with a lot of others here.

trying to deal with the bizarre notions that people concoct about the motives, goals, and intellectual structure of feminism based on “public perception”

And yet this is where newcomers to a movement arrive from. Public perception counts, and so do those incumbent insiders who define and dominate that perception.

As for my own list: you originally asked for “the most hardcore and prominent libertarians;” now you’re asking for “prominent mainstream representatives of more intellectually honest and broad-based libertarianism in the popular mind.”

I’ll agree that “hardcore” was imprecise. “Vociferous and prominent” would have been better. I ask something different of you, because you seem to be arguing that there are equally prominent people who better represent your strain of libertarianism. While many of the people on your list would indeed be worthwhile representatives of “Reason-able” libertarianism (always good to see Lysander Spooner’s name. Add Albert Gallatin to the list of proto-libertarians as well), I’d wager you that, with the exception of Balko, Rockwell, Rand, and (perhaps) Rothbard, none of those names would be familiar to most libertarians, let alone most Americans.

(I am not at all a fan of Ayn Rand, and I wish she were less representative of libertarian thought than she is, but if you think that she is narrowly concerned with economic issues to the exclusion of any other issues of social or cultural import, then I wonder how much of her work you’ve read.)

Please point out where I said Rand herself is narrowly concerned with economic issues. I was discussing her modern-day followers, and not just the “Going Galt” yahoos.

The sad fact is that the American libertarian movement’s public face is currently funded and guided in large part by greedpigs like Grover Norquist, Richard Melon Scaife, and the Koch family (which, in addition to backing that ridiculous astroturf “Tea Party” movement, also funds Reason).

Comment #98: Gracchus.  on  03/24  at  10:23 PM

It is truly amazing how a blog comment I made years ago keeps rising from the grave, over and over again.  I am powerful on the Internets.  Hear me roar.

Comment #99: Mandos  on  03/24  at  11:43 PM

Jeff,

A while upthread, you apparently put your notion of the essential core of “libertarianism” as you see it in this nutshell; correct me if I misunderstand:

Heck, I think it’s best if I quote:

...many libertarians have adopted the philosophy because they feel that the greatest good for the most people is done by government staying out of the way in most cases.

And a bit before that, this specific example of what you mean:

Seems to me that culturally, feminism and libertarianism overlap a lot. Certainly when it comes to reproductive rights that’s the case - feminists and libertarians both believe that what a woman does with her body ought to be her own damn business. For a further example, the idea that a woman should be able to wear whatever she wants without having violence visited upon her seems like a libertarian idea as well. And so on.

Certainly from an economic standpoint libertarianism and feminism are frequently at odds, but I’d still hesitate to call libertarianism “anti-feminist.” A libertarian feminist might respond that the problem with a patriarchal society is that men (and women) with conservative gender roles have too many avenues of power that they can use to inflict those roles upon women, and the best way to combat this for good is to eliminate these avenues of power altogether…

Now personally, I have my own simplistic view; I think people should stop being mean to each other. Can you see though, that your notion of “eliminate avenues of power altogether” is even more simplistic and doomed to fail?

I’d be very interested to hear sometime from BlacBloc, and somewhat from you, what your positive vision of a good society would be. I was very impressed by the “Odonians” in Ursula LeGuin’s The Dispossesed. But the vast majority of what has passed for “libertarianism” in the English-speaking world at any rate has suffered from the myopia of supposing that “Power,” insofar as it is a bad thing, is something rooted in “The State,” “government,” totally ignoring the obvious reality of equally abusive power that isn’t state-based at all. If we seriously think about “eliminating” all forms of potentially abusive power we would have to totally eliminate all social interaction in any form whatsoever. Put briefly, we’d die, because we are social—hence political—animals.

In Truth or Dare Starhawk made the useful distintion between three aspects of what we lump together in the word “power.” First there is “power-to;” human ability in all forms. Then “power-with;” we humans greatly multiply our individual power via cooperation. Finally there is “power-over;” the ability to compel others against their will.

The thing is, “power-over” is not some object you can destroy or substance you can filter out and eliminate; it is a manifestation of the other two forms, cultivated by a specific set of societies that are robust and have been around several thousand years. Our “power-with” is channeled via “power-over” and to overthrow the sorts of societies that value “power-over” one must learn, develop, demonstrate, and teach alternative ways of securing cooperation.

The vast majority of “libertarians” I have ever run into in print or face-to-face think “the market” is the new alternative. I don’t; I think at best it’s a clumsy though somewhat effective mechanism, and it is intertwined necessarily with “power-over” mechanisms that betray its origins and commitment.

LeGuin envisioned a very different way, and she subtitled the novel “An ambiguous Utopia” because from the point of view of your mission statement, “eliminate coercive power!” they failed. Any human society is organized, any organzation implies the potential for coercion. It happened on the Odonian-run moon Annarres. The thing is, Odonians also believed in “the permanent revolution;” they understood it was the responsibility of all individuals to assert themselves in a responsible, considerate way to make things reasonable.

In other words—politics and some sort of government are a core part of our humanity; we can quarrel over forms, but at the end of the day we should be fighting over what is good government, not fantasizing about there somehow being none.

And we should be less mean to each other.

Comment #100: Mark Foxwell  on  03/24  at  11:47 PM

Well first of all I would say that my idea of a good society existed in transitory forms that were squashed at various points of history, in particular in revolutionary Spain before Franquist forces took it back, or the Paris commune. One could consider this a failing of anarchism, except that there has been a long history of democratic revolutions that got drowned in blood and the fact numerous democracies that arose were a compromise and a mix in different parts of new democratic reforms with old monarchist systems, yet here we are today with actual democracies in place. At any other time in the past democracy, as an ideology, could have been seen a failure. Hell, one might say it’s only after WWII that democracy could truly have been seen to have triumphed (mostly) as the new world order.

I will not hide my disdain for most of American anarchism, in particular the heavily mystic-influenced strains evidenced by writers like Hakim Bey or Starhawk. I’m a pretty orthodox form of anarcho-communist, European-style (still the most popular form on the old continent). This means I get called a crypto-Leninist in anarchist forums. raspberry I have an issue with any theory that does not base itself on materialist analysis.

I’d like to remind you that LeGuin’s Anarres anarchist community was a failure because of material conditions, as is said directly in the book. Anarres was too ressource poor to allow the reduction of toil that was talked about in Kropotkin’s The Conquest of Bread, which is necessary in order to allow the reorganisation of the labor force in which play-work is the main part of productive activity and toil-work is relegated to a few hours a week when distributed justly between all members of the community (instead of the current system where a fulfilling job is the luxury of only those who aren’t living hand to mouth, while we have an organised class of people whose work is entirely lobotomized by Taylorisation).

I do not agree with power-over being a manifestation of power-to and power-with. It is, by definition, its antithesis. To have power-over is to deny power-to and power-with to others.

As for whether it is concentrated in the State, I must say first of all that the distinction between State and capital is mostly spurious. The most sincere libertarians understand this. They loathe big corporations as well as big government and believe they can only exist through state subsidy (which is mostly true). Their problem is one of praxis, where they naively think that the projects they’re shooting for will *remove* state interference instead of *changing its nature*, and that by removing the state they will somehow eradicate large capital accumulation. The likely outcome of their projects, if they were to miraculously pass a ballot to eliminate all forms of state interference in the economy *including* both social welfare and corporate welfare, would be that the already large accumulations of capital would spend a fraction of it to take back control of the state and pass a new initiative reinstating corporate welfare… as for social welfare, that the sincere libertarians would cut in addition to corporate welfare because of their *principles*, they will surely gain some measure of moral victory when the corporate masters will accept not to reinstate *those*.

Comment #101: BlackBloc  on  03/25  at  03:06 AM

Fun with Ayn Rand and Conservatism.

Comment #102: atheist  on  03/25  at  09:59 AM

The most sincere libertarians understand this. They loathe big corporations as well as big government and believe they can only exist through state subsidy (which is mostly true). Their problem is one of praxis, where they naively think that the projects they’re shooting for will *remove* state interference instead of *changing its nature*, and that by removing the state they will somehow eradicate large capital accumulation. The likely outcome of their projects, if they were to miraculously pass a ballot to eliminate all forms of state interference in the economy *including* both social welfare and corporate welfare, would be that the already large accumulations of capital would spend a fraction of it to take back control of the state and pass a new initiative reinstating corporate welfare…

Good point.

Comment #103: atheist  on  03/25  at  10:03 AM

...many libertarians have adopted the philosophy because they feel that the greatest good for the most people is done by government staying out of the way in most cases.

They may be operating off of what they think is best for people, but they should understand that I think they’re nuts and I will fight them.

Comment #104: atheist  on  03/25  at  10:09 AM

First off, apologies for the threadjack, Amanda.

Anyway, in response to Mark Foxwell, you’re right that most libertarians are naive when it comes to power structures. They tend to oppose government power while ignoring corporate or non-governmental power. (This fact is actually what keeps me from being a full-fledged libertarian - I personally think that corporate power needs to be balanced out by government power somehow.)

The problem, of course, arises when corporate power becomes government power, something that BlackBloc hinted at and something that seems to happen a lot in our society, especially when Republicans get into power (think mining execs on the MHSA, etc.). Most honest libertarians recognize the need for some sort of regulatory state, especially when it comes to obviously dangerous things like mines, but they fear regulatory capture that would merely make the state an organ of corporate power. The point here is that if “power-over” exists, it can and will be used to hurt people as well as help people - and we must not try to eliminate “power-over” but to minimize the harm it can do when used unwisely.

And Mark, I appreciate this:

And we should be less mean to each other.

But do you honestly think that’s gonna happen? I mean, we’re in a world populated by Rush Limbaughs and Glenn Becks - can we really expect people to be less mean to one another and base a system of government around that expectation?

Blackbloc:

Their problem is one of praxis, where they naively think that the projects they’re shooting for will *remove* state interference instead of *changing its nature*, and that by removing the state they will somehow eradicate large capital accumulation. The likely outcome of their projects, if they were to miraculously pass a ballot to eliminate all forms of state interference in the economy *including* both social welfare and corporate welfare, would be that the already large accumulations of capital would spend a fraction of it to take back control of the state and pass a new initiative reinstating corporate welfare…

Fair worry - which is why we need to mitigate the possibility for corporations to use the government to exert power over us. One of the things I’m seeing in common between you and Mark Foxwell is that you believe to some extent that if you’re not at the top of the power structure you’re powerless. I don’t think that’s true at all. Those who have “power-over” above them still have to accept its existence and assent to it to some extent. If we maintain as little of that power as possible to have a just society, that power which large pools of capital can buy becomes as close to harmless as it gets. I’m not saying libertarianism is perfect, just saying that it kinda makes sense in certain lights.

Comment #105: Jeff  on  03/25  at  11:16 AM

which is why we need to mitigate the possibility for corporations to use the government to exert power over us.

Discussing this with libertarians brings to mind the chapter from Jack London’s The Iron Heel where the socialist protagonist has to confront the Grangists. Libertarianism is just warmed over Grange politics.

Libertarians live in the air. They have thought up a political system but they have devised it independant of the current order. There is no praxis there (praxis is the combination of theory *and* practice… libertarianism is about 100% theory). How to you get from point A to point B? The state by its very nature as a top down hierarchical entity favors the concentration of powers into a few hands, and that makes it highly susceptible to takeover by economic powers. There are so many filters between the will of the people and the ultimate decision makers that they are isolated completly from our demands. The working class does not have any political power whatsoever. To fight on that front is foolish, like a small insurgency trying to fight a conventional trench war. It can’t be done. The best we got from the vast expenditure of ressources, both monetary and labor, from the Left last election was Obama (that’s still lightyears ahead of the last administration, but still…).

What we have is our bodies and our labor force, and our possibility to organize locally in our communities to create dual power. The anarchosyndicalists called for the General Strike, but the basic concept can also be applied outside of the unions. The very definition of the working class is that we don’t have capital but we have our labor on our side. So instead of trying to fight a war on capital’s grounds (buying the state, which is basically what electoral politics is all about), let’s work outside the state system to build the infrastructures needed.

Comment #106: BlackBloc  on  03/25  at  11:54 AM

Libertarians live in the air. They have thought up a political system but they have devised it independant of the current order.

So true. Whenever I question the value of the free market system, a libertarian will point out that we have never truly had a free market system in recorded history.

Comment #107: Hector B.  on  03/25  at  12:15 PM

Gracchus:

No, she’s offering insights into what attracts misogynists and her patented NiceGuys® [...] to the prevalent mainstream form of economics-focused libertarianism.

Just so we’re clear, besides being a radical feminist I have also been corresponding with Amanda since she was at Mouse Words. You don’t need to spell out basic terminology for me.

That said, I do not think it’s at all obvious that a statement like this:

Even libertarianism doesn’t really function without anxious masculinity to fuel it, and Ayn Rand knew it and used phallic fantasies to lure in her followers.

is in fact a statement about libertarianism as publicly perceived rather than a statement about libertarianism as internally understood. If it is, then, again, it seems to me that there’s a basic problem in trying to figure out what “fuels” libertarianism based on public perception and that insiders’ understandings of the movement are, in fact, more useful than “public perception” in figuring that out. You, of course, have been clear that you’re talking about “prominent” libertarians throughout; but “prominent” is not a univocal term.

If you want to say that there are lots of self-identified libertarians with a superficial understanding of libertarianism, and those people are often exclusively concerned with a specific range of economic issues, to the exclusion of other important social and cultural issues, then I’d agree with you.  I complain about and argue with them all the time. This certainly justifies a claim about “libertarians I see on the TV” or “libertarians I deal with in my blog comments.” But it doesn’t justify a claim about libertarianism, which like any movement has more and less peripheral figures, and which like any philosophy has more and less consistent and well-informed advocates. As for whether it justifies a claim about prominent libertarians, the “prominence” of those people is not necessarily prominence within the particular community you’re trying to address; and it’s often the case that the intellectual or social structure of non-“mainstream” movements are not very well understood by trying to glean something based on the figures who are most prominent among people outside the movement, because the reasons for their prominence (and for the prominence of the specific things about them that are prominent outside the movement) typically has little to do with what “fuels” the movement, and a lot to do with what fuels the institutions which are choosing who to report on and who to engage with.

Comment #108: Rad Geek  on  03/25  at  02:22 PM

Gracchus:

<blockquote>Which “insiders”? The comparitively small group of libertarians who read Reason, understand who some of the people on your list are, and see beyond the economic facet? Or the much larger group of self-professed libertarians who are beta-grade Gordon Geckos looking to save their future imaginary millions from the tax man?

1. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting to pay taxes.

2. A lot of libertarians read Reason. As far as I know it is the highest-readership libertarian magazine currently being published.

3. I don’t know who this amorphous group of polemically-defined libertarians is, and I don’t know any way of reckoning how many of them there are compared to other groups. I do know that you get a better idea of what a philosophy is by looking for the most consistent and best informed advocates of it, and you get a better idea of what a movement is by looking for the most influential people within it. There are other criteria that you also may want to weight: for example, influence among the least consistent and well-informed, or among newcomers to the movement, may be less important than influence among the more consistent and better-informed, or among people who have spent years or decades working within the movement. Movements are structured social entities, not just heaps of people, and if you want to make statements about a movement it’s often a tricky matter trying to get a grip on that structure—a matter which is certainly not well served by simply depending on what’s most visible in the media or in your personal corner of the Internet. Of course there’s an easy way around this: to talk about specific people’s views rather than about the views of a movement as a group. Part of the reason I think it would be useful to talk more about that—what motivates Ayn Rand (certainly, there’s a lot of misogyny there), or Lew Rockwell (certainly, there’s a lot of patriarchy there), or (ugh) Bob Barr, or Will Wilkinson (a feminist), or Kerry Howley (a feminist who has written a lot about libertarian feminism), or Carol Moore (a radical feminist who has written a lot about libertarian feminism)—and less about what “fuels” amorphous collections of people, especially amorphous collections that are defined by polemical terms or by contestable and easily-shifted terms like “prominent” or “mainstream.” (Of course, the fact that, as a radical and an anarchist, I happen to think that the most consistent libertarians are typically the least “mainstream,” is part of the reason for my disliking that as a criterion for selecting who to discuss.)

Me:

trying to deal with the bizarre notions that people concoct about the motives, goals, and intellectual structure of feminism based on “public perception”

Gracchus:

And yet this is where newcomers to a movement arrive from.

Well, no, not necessarily; I arrived at ideological feminism from conversation with friends of mine who were themselves feminists, not from newspapers or A-list blogs. But in any case, where “newcomers to a movement arrive from,” while interesting, is not necessarily more interesting than where they end up after they have kicked around the movement for a while and thought more deeply about the things that they believe.

Public perception counts, and so do those incumbent insiders who define and dominate that perception

Counts for what, specifically? What’s the specific problem you think that libertarians need to solve by fixing “public perception” and by (somehow or another) changing out the “incumbent insiders” who happen to be prominent in media outlets and other institutions that operate according to criteria that are largely outside of our control.

Comment #109: Rad Geek  on  03/25  at  02:38 PM

BlackBloc:

Their problem is one of praxis, where they naively think that the projects they’re shooting for will *remove* state interference instead of *changing its nature*, and that by removing the state they will somehow eradicate large capital accumulation. The likely outcome of their projects, if they were to miraculously pass a ballot to eliminate all forms of state interference in the economy [...]

BlackBloc, I agree with you about this, more or less entirely. That’s part of the reason why, besides being an anarchist, I am specifically an agorist, and why I advocate means of social change other than electoral politics. But what makes you think that libertarians as a group are committed to electoral politics as a means of change? Certainly the Libertarian Party is, but not all libertarians are involved with the Libertarian Party, and historically many prominent American libertarians have been specifically opposed to electoral strategies for checking, rolling back, or abolishing the State. (I actually disagree with a lot of the non-electoral strategies that have been proposed by folks like Nock, Chodorov, Read, LeFevre, et al.—but for reasons quite other than thinking that they are naively putting their trust in electoral politics.)

Hector B.

So true. Whenever I question the value of the free market system, a libertarian will point out that we have never truly had a free market system in recorded history.

Well, but we haven’t, have we?

Whether or not that’s an appropriate response depends of course on the argument that it’s made in response to. If you’re trying to use historical, empirical examples to question the value of a free market system, then surely it does matter how far, and in what aspects, the examples you’re citing actually are empirical examples of a free market, n’est-ce pas?

Comment #110: Rad Geek  on  03/25  at  02:38 PM

President of the United States:

Libertarian votes, 2000: 384,431
Libertarian votes, 2004: 397,265

That’s not a ton of movement away from President George W. Bush toward the Libertarian Party there.  The interesting thing is this:

Libertarian votes, 2008: 523,686

Apparently, once Bush was off the ballot, the Republican Party became significantly less attractive to libertarians.

It is possible, I suppose, that the libertarian commenters here are the One True Libertarians, but overall, I’m pretty clear on what the movement means.

Comment #111: Punditus Maximus  on  03/25  at  09:57 PM

There will never be a free market, ever, since one basic assumption of a free market is of participants each with an infinite quantity of information and infinite computation time.  Said persons are also perfectly aware of future events (or their probabilities) and are never at any time liquidity constrained.

Seriously, the economic models of free markets require this.  These are enumerated assumptions for the mathematics, and without them, the models simply do not work.  Libertarians are people who believe that these assumptions could under some circumstances be valid.

Comment #112: Punditus Maximus  on  03/25  at  10:00 PM

Punditus Maximus:

That’s not a ton of movement away from President George W. Bush toward the Libertarian Party there.

As if the only options of which libertarians might partake were (1) voting for the Republican presidential candidate or (2) voting for the Libertarian Party candidate. In 2000, I voted for Ralph Nader; in 2004, I voted for John Kerry, and in 2008, because I had given up on both third-partyism and lesser-evilism and, in fact, electoral politics as a whole, I voted for nobody at all. In fact, many libertarians reject electoral politics and don’t vote. None of this, by the way, has to do with insisting that I am (or that other non-GOP-voting libertarians are) the One True Libertarian; it has to do with the fact that you made a blanket statement about libertarian political behavior which actually has nothing to do with the political behavior of many actually-existing libertarians. If you want to sit around and complain about so-called libertarian GOP voters, feel free to do so—I do so all the time, and, hell, I also complain about most so-called libertarian LP voters. But don’t pretend as if this is a meaningful indictment of libertarianism as a philosophy, or the libertarian movement as a whole.

Apparently, once Bush was off the ballot, the Republican Party became significantly less attractive to libertarians.

Actually third party vote totals are affected by a lot of different things, including the fact that absolute number of votes for all parties tends to rise from one election to the next (since the total voting population is constantly growing). It’s also dramatically affected by the peculiarities of the candidate in any given year (Badnarik was a much less competent campaigner than either Browne or Barr), by how many other prominent third party candidates are in the race, by how close the general election is likely to be (slam-dunk elections tend to favor third party candidates, since fewer people are worried about trying to tilt the outcome for their less-hated big party candidate), etc. In percentage terms, Barr’s miserable failure in 2008 was about equivalent to Harry Browne’s miserable failure in 1996; the difference in the interim had little to do with some special fondness for George W. Bush and his “compassionate conservatism” or bomb-the-world antics, and a lot to do with a bunch of minor factors that can have little effects that seem large only because we are dealing with such a small number of voters to begin with.

Punditus Maximus:

There will never be a free market, ever, since one basic assumption of a free market is of participants each with an infinite quantity of information and infinite computation time.  Said persons are also perfectly aware of future events (or their probabilities) and are never at any time liquidity constrained. Seriously, the economic models of free markets require this. [...]

No, they don’t. You seem to be confusing the neoclassical general-equilibrium analysis (especially modeling of markets under the ideal conditions of so-called “perfect competition) with free market economics. But these are two separate topics: freed-market economics per se are not the same thing as perfect competition or general equilibrium modeling. Some free market economists make use of the neoclassical modeling; but many, notably those associated with the “Austrian School” in economics, do not, and in fact specifically criticize that kind of idealized reasoning about competitive markets as some sort of frictionless plane. For a broad overview, you might read over the essays in the Austrian School section of David Prychitko’s Why Economists Disagree. In fact, if you look at Mises’ and Hayek’s work on the role of price as a decentralized information network, or Israel Kirzner’s work on entrepreneurship, you’ll find that Austrian economists (typically among the most radical of free-marketeers) generally think that the facts of imperfect information, limited time, and uncertain futures are central to the case for economic freedom (because knowledge problems are inherent in any form of resource allocation, and because the decentralized, trial-and-error processes of the market provide a way to move ahead in spite of uncertainty and ignorance, in ways that centralized bureaucratic planning, which depends on an unrealistic faith in the capacity to discover and aggregate information about people’s wants and needs, cannot).

Libertarians are people who believe that these assumptions could under some circumstances be valid.

If your notion of libertarianism is such that Ludwig von Mises or Murray Rothbard wouldn’t count as a libertarian, then your notion of libertarianism probably needs to be revised.

Comment #113: Rad Geek  on  03/26  at  04:02 AM

But there it is, in all its naked glory—-the belief that half the human race needs to be subjected to violence, coercion, and abuse to keep us as a permanent underclass so the other half can feel good about itself.

Thanks Amanda… I don’t know how pressuring half the population into becoming a permanent underclass (being pressured to do considerably more labor for less) is NOT an economic issue. These go hand-in-hand. It’s almost as if some of the incorrigible, dishonest (I know, right?) media coverage over the election campaign over women’s issues as some small dividing issue in who gains the “women’s vote” has been swept entirely… ENTIRELY under the rug.
And at the same time, I don’t particularly understand it because most of the reporters and anchorpeople I’ve seen repeatedly cover economic correspondences have been very admirable women.
It’s this blatant, yet unspoken hypocracy that makes me want to have beer shots around during the five o’clock news, waiting for the phrase “troubled/rough economic times” when other, even similar stories could be covered.

Comment #114: TheMadChild  on  03/26  at  06:01 PM
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