Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: From the hard right, “Don’t get pregnant” means “Get pregnant ASAP” Previous entry: Fundies call for exodus from the public schools—again

It’s Just Loving…With Fists

FeminismSex

imageIn case anyone ever wonders why us nanny-state liberals call for a reassessment of gender roles from the youngest ages, with a focus on equality and balance in gender relationships, all one has to do is look at this NYT article about a rise in dating violence.

What’s most bothersome about this rise in violence isn’t just the rise; it’s that it’s based on attitudes imbued from very young ages in both men and women.  Men are told to defend their territory with violence, women are told they’re the territory.  As seemingly perfect as this arrangement would be to protect women from, say, the Huns, it works slightly less ideally when the women decide they’re no longer territory.  Or, hell, when they don’t even break the territorial relationship, but their trip to Big Lots took longer because the power went out, which obviously means that they’re dirty whore sluts who need to be taught how to properly bargain shop. 

You don’t break this cycle by telling fifteen years olds that abusive relationships are never okay, you break this cycle by telling five year olds to respect each other and then telling six and seven and eight year olds the same thing.  You break up paternalistic, patriarchal behavior before it takes root rather than tell young men that it’s really not okay to bring violence into their relationships (really!) and subsequently forcing young women to be constant vanguards against the field of abusive men who were lectured very sternly during study hall to Not Do That Shit.

Or, you know, you could follow The Other McCain’s advice and solve the problem of men treating women as property and abusing them by having men treat women as property and abuse each other.  There’s nothing like solving violence in relationships by inserting violence into relationships!

“Experts say”—and who can disagree with the experts? Our daughter is 19. When she was a kid, we taught her the most important lesson of life: Boys have cooties.

Why don’t they teach that in schools? That is to say, why don’t schools discourage the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing? Girls especially need to be encouraged to develop a sense of independent identity, so that they don’t fall into the all-too-common teenage trap of thinking that their life is meaningless if they don’t have a boyfriend.

Somehow, boys have the ability to develop senses of independent identity without being kept sequestered from girls - in fact, they develop those identities while, in a traditionalist framework, being giant horndogs.  Why can’t girls?  Oh, where there’s a question, there’s a remarkably stupid answer, fair audience:

Whatever happened to dads and brothers chasing off pesky boyfriends? We need traditional values, a la Sonny Corleone:  [insert video of dude beating up another dude to protect the honor of a woman]

So, here’s how we encourage girls to develop their own senses of identity: having every male who’s ever encountered them fight in the streets over who they can and can’t interact with.  It’s much how boys, for centuries, have had their mothers engage in ritualistic knife fights after PTA meetings over who gets which prom dates.  You know, if Mrs. Farnsworth hadn’t brought brass knuckles, I could have gone with the head cheerleader.  And my mom could also remember the alphabet past the letter K. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 12:08 PM • (33) Comments

“We need traditional values, a la Sonny Corleone”

Just…wow.  I guess it makes sense, since the GOP is so interested in traditional business practices, a la Vito Coreleone.

Comment #1: Mikey  on  01/04  at  12:23 PM

Did he watch the movie all the way to the end?  Cause I seem to remember Sonny’s trying to protect his sister was what got him killed.

Comment #2: Stitch  on  01/04  at  12:39 PM

That’s the second time I’ve seen a wingnut praise the family values of the Corleones.  The other time was when Jill Stanek praised Michael Corleone for, you guessed it, beating his wife.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  12:53 PM

Seriously, in case that’s not obvious, Coppola wasn’t praising brawling over women in any way, and he makes a point to show that a culture of violence means violence against women, who are treated like property.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  12:55 PM

It’s remarkable at how gleeful wingnuts tend to get when they see a situation where they can justify the use of violence.  School shootings, terrorism, obnoxious boyfriends, imagined race war - it’s almost as if they would rather have these opportunities than live in a society where violence is absent.

Comment #5: Mikey  on  01/04  at  01:00 PM

That is to say, why don’t schools discourage the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing?

Yeah and push abstinence!  Why don’t they do that?  That’s what we want for our children, after all!  To live sequestered lives independent of the Opposite Sex.  Forever and ever.  Let’s teach them to stay far far away from each other!

Oh wait…they don’t really want that?  They want grandchildren someday?  They want their children to grow up and get married someday?

Well, guess what.  They need to learn how to deal with one another then, and “cooties” isn’t the answer.  Learning to treat each other as fellow humans is the answer—not as one party with “needs” that can’t be controlled and another party who must either “guard the gates” or “put out” depending on the whether or not a ring is involved.

Comment #6: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/04  at  01:24 PM

I was pleased that when my older son got hit with that anvil known as “hormones”, he said something to the effect of “I like a person”.

It was only after I checked out the Mii he constructed in her honor (the Wii system has little avatars called “Mii’s” that you can construct) and called “A Person” that “a person” was female.

I did like that he put it that way though.  He likes “a person”.  She’s human, first and foremost.

Comment #7: Ms Kate  on  01/04  at  01:24 PM

Did someone say ‘ritualistic knife fight?’ (at 2:40)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkq7HLBe178

Just digitally replace the chicken with a vagina.  Righteous.

Comment #8: Sour Kraut  on  01/04  at  01:39 PM

It’s not often I rise in defense of Santino Corleone, but I think he deserves a limited reevaluation here.

Amanda’s quite right to say that Coppola holds up Sonny’s brutal rages to demonstrate the baseness and violence of the mob culture.  Indeed, in both the movie and (IIRC) the Puzo books, it is Sonny’s predictable lashing out against slights to Connie that gets him killed.

But Sonny is not, as the wingnut would have it, “chasing off pesky boyfriends.”  What gets Sonny going is that Carlo is violently abusing Connie—beating her to within an inch of her life.  Obviously the answer to that is not the bloody and uncontrollable vigilantism that Sonny indulges in.  But it seems to me that the instinct to stand up for a family member who’s being violently abused in a relationship is closer to Jesse’s ideal than the Other McCain’s.

Comment #9: southpaw  on  01/04  at  01:41 PM

Teach your children that members of the other sex have cooties.  That’s a real good idea. End Sarcasm mode. They’ll grow up to be perfect wingnuts that way. 

I say we add certain martial arts to PE curriculums.  The refined Asian ones that involve dodging, and that “Battle not fought” ethos as opposed to the “Bad situation exists, shred opponent like a wet kleenex” styles.  Aikido is a good one.  100% hit free*

*Aikidoists do learn punches, kicks and chops for training purposes, but such techniques are not part of the art.

Comment #10: Flying Fox  on  01/04  at  01:50 PM

jesse,

I can’t believe you fell for one of these patented NYT fake trend stories.

It opens with a murder by dismemberment(WTF?!?) and then talks about a trend for which there is no evidence.

This is not to belittle the issue or anything - whether it’s increasing or not it’s something that should be dealt with - but I hate to see you give credence to trash journalism like this.

Comment #11: mario  on  01/04  at  02:10 PM

What gets Sonny going is that Carlo is violently abusing Connie—beating her to within an inch of her life.

No he doesn’t.  He just beats her good for fussing at him for having affairs while she’s pregnant.  Of course, he had his girlfriend call her to set up the beating b/c of his deal with Barzini.  Had to be done while Vito was in the hospital and couldn’t talk Sonny out of it.

I don’t think Sonny cares about the degree of the beatings; he resents petty thief and only half-Sicilian Rizzo for striking Connie at all.  Which would be nice if he really thought of Connie as a person, but none of his other relationships with women show that at all.

Vito doesn’t like it either, but Connie’s Rizzo’s property, so he won’t get involved and talks Sonny down.  It’s more Sonny’s own familial pride than true concern for a woman, though he probably is fond of his baby sister.

Anyway, if Vito had taught Michael, Fredo, and Sonny that girls had cooties, none of this would have happened.  If Connie thought boys had cooties, Sonny would still be alive.  The Five Families would still be in charge of New York, and honor among criminals would be the rule.

Comment #12: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/04  at  03:17 PM

Well, guess what.  They need to learn how to deal with one another then, and “cooties” isn’t the answer.

Marry FIRST, learn to deal with each other SECOND!

Comment #13: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/04  at  03:39 PM

Or the reichwingers could just break down and admit that, among the men at least, they almost all really prefer each other anyway…
If they’d just own that (first with themselves, then with each other, finally with the world at large), things would be a lot better for people of all genders & orientations.

Comment #14: smartalek  on  01/04  at  05:56 PM

Mario, do you have any evidence that this is a “fake trend story” because the studies cited in the article seem to suggest it isn’t “fake” and given that it hasn’t been studied before the last decade (but was clearly present) it is hardly a “trend.”

Or do you just think domestic violence just magically appears in adult relationships out of nowhere?

Comment #15: history_mom  on  01/04  at  06:15 PM

One thing that really jumped out at me in the story was the part about how teenage boys get “macho” when they start having relationships with teenage girls—as though they somehow have to compensate for wanting female companionship.  Now where does that come from, I wonder? /sarcasm

I blame the patriarchy.

Comment #16: nolo  on  01/04  at  06:22 PM

Heh - as I recall, Carlo was Sonny’s friend - it was Sonny matched them up in the first place.

Comment #18: Fcb  on  01/04  at  07:33 PM

It’s remarkable at how gleeful wingnuts tend to get when they see a situation where they can justify the use of violence.

I remember reaching an age (early teens) when I lost any pleasure in reading The Chronicles of Narnia because of this trait.

Also the religious proselytizing.

Comment #19: sara  on  01/04  at  08:57 PM

Mario, you seem to be saying the trend isn’t occurring because they lead with a sensational example of the trend.  That doesn’t make, er, sense.

Comment #20: Jesse Taylor  on  01/04  at  09:03 PM

In case anyone ever wonders why us nanny-state liberals call for a reassessment of gender roles from the youngest ages…

In a free nation, we regulate behavior and try not to indoctrinate.

Beating a spouse is certainly dispicable, but indoctrination has baggage. In your quest to get the results you wish, you disregard the long term problems of this form of mind control.

It’s terribly selfish of you, Marie.

Comment #21: Dodge Ram  on  01/04  at  10:43 PM

Yeah, Marie, how dare you not want to be beaten?  It’s every person’s god-given right to beat a woman and have every one make excuses for him.  Why on earth we would want to influence society…

except of course that we influence this sort of society in the first place, but that’s just the Natural Order of things, and not at all like indoctorination.

Comment #22: Antigone  on  01/04  at  11:19 PM

In a free nation, we regulate behavior and try not to indoctrinate.

When you’re dealing with 5- and 6-year-olds, all social training is indoctrination.  The question is what you indoctrinate them with

Beating a spouse is certainly dispicable, but indoctrination has baggage. In your quest to get the results you wish, you disregard the long term problems of this form of mind control.

Which are?  What, exactly, are the dangerous future implications of this:

telling five year olds to respect each other and then telling six and seven and eight year olds the same thing.

Comment #23: Seraph  on  01/04  at  11:55 PM

Beating a spouse is certainly dispicable, but indoctrination has baggage. In your quest to get the results you wish, you disregard the long term problems of this form of mind control.

Seems to me the long term problems of indoctrination include teenage boys who think they have to be “macho” and control their girlfriends.  Or am I missing something about indoctrination?

Comment #24: nolo  on  01/05  at  12:00 AM

Ms. Kate:
color me all shades of impressed. i bow at your parental feet. you should teach other parents how to teach their children how to treat all other children as PEOPLE.
this is not snark, or sarcasm. i am 100% in awe. i used to (and will again, when i can walk dependably) mentor young teens, and the boy/girl dynamic was always always ALWAYS the hardest to talk to them about, let alone fix issues with. boys were always afraid that “liking” a girl meant that they would be considered “pussys” by other boys. (the levels of WRONG in that thought….. argh!)
what’s your secret? i bet its something along the lines of constant reinforcment of the idea that “girls are people the same as, and equal to, you” - but was there more?

Comment #25: denelian  on  01/05  at  12:28 AM

It’s remarkable at how gleeful wingnuts tend to get when they see a situation where they can justify the use of violence.

For real. Their faces shine when they talk about beating people up to protect their women folk. It’s creepy.

Comment #26: Entomologista  on  01/05  at  02:43 AM

In a free nation, we regulate behavior and try not to indoctrinate.

Which, by definition, means we don’t live in a free nation, because we indoctrinate kids every day.  What do you think “Blue’s Clues” is?  Or “Veggie Tales”?  Or “Sesame Street”?

Or is your argument that early intervention is useless so the only thing we can do is punish the behavior created after years of indoctrination?

Comment #27: Mnemosyne  on  01/05  at  03:40 AM

OK, I totally thought “Marie” was supposed to be some insulting diminutive of “Amanda” that I had never heard of, but now that it’s being directed at Jesse I’m just confused. Is “Marie” the panda’s name?

you disregard the long term problems of this form of mind control.

Who says we have to “mind control” kids to get them not to be assholes? Of course, that you mention “this form of” mind control pretty much answers my question. It’s only your form of mind control that’s good for kids and will keep them from growing up as self-loathing lonely prats.

Comment #28: junk science  on  01/05  at  10:49 AM

what’s your secret? i bet its something along the lines of constant reinforcment of the idea that “girls are people the same as, and equal to, you” - but was there more?

I’m pretty amazed myself - and also amazed that it didn’t immediately occur to me to ask if “a person” was male or female.

He has been going to Unitarian Universalist’s Our Whole Lives program, which does help, but I have to say that he had strong friendships with girls from earliest memory and that has probably helped shape his view of the world.  That, and we thoroughly supported him when he did befriend girls and preferred their company at certain stages and didn’t bat an eye when he wanted to try wearing dresses or do “girly” crafts or liked “girly” colors.  I think that might have helped him with the notion that “male” things were not superior to “female” things, just different?  I don’t know.  The kid has always been resistant to peer crap, which probably helps.

But hey, thanks anyway.

Comment #29: Ms Kate  on  01/05  at  02:58 PM

Elementary schools should downplay the boyfriend/girlfriend thing. High schools probably can’t reasonably do so.

Comment #30: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/05  at  11:49 PM

Ms. Kate;
i adore the UU and all of it’s programs. i can’t have kids and would be a lousy parent, but i take my niece to the UU. i have another niece and a nephew, being raised by my mom, and i try to get her to take them to the UU and buy BOTH of them BOTH “boy toys” and “girl toys”.
i’m going to copy our exchange and email to my mom… if she can see someone who has had success, she might be less fatalistic about my younger niece. if it’s ok with you?

Comment #31: denelian  on  01/06  at  03:10 AM

Dating violence is bad but there is no hard statistics in the NYT article that is rising.

Comment #32: lemmy caution  on  01/06  at  05:59 PM

om4nBN pgopsuyluumo, cfhmfuslohbm, [link=http://cnxrbqqcaoya.com/]cnxrbqqcaoya[/link], http://qoyieroqvklw.com/

Comment #33: vomvezs  on  01/06  at  11:52 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.