This is why I still subscribe to the Tribune, despite all the cuts and shitty changes that that greedy jerk Sam Zell made to the paper. As long as there are reporters like Howard Witt around, journalism ain’t dead.

What concerns me most is that the ‘unnamed’ cop moved to plant a gun on the victim, with all those people watching him do so.  I mean, what the fucking fuck?

I’m sure that’s what police training drums into cops nowadays. “Don’t worry about witnesses—the jury will believe you because you have a badge. And don’t forget to always drop a gun next to the body so it’ll look like you were defending yourself.”

Police in America are just a legalized street gang.

Police in America are just a legalized street gang.

Another example:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/03/copp_parents_interview.html

And don’t forget to read the end of the article for this gem.

“If I see three or four young black men walking down the street, I have to stop them and check their names. I want them to be afraid every time they see the police that they might get arrested. We’re not out there trying to abuse and harass people—we’re trying to protect the law-abiding citizens locked behind their doors in fear.
—Russell Mills, Homer’s police chief

I honestly cannot believe that this shit STILL happens. Planting a gun on the guy in front of everybody still standing there. Jesus, I mean, not to sound “elitest”, but are these guys in the fucking Klan? These fucking rednecks need to be put down.

“If I see three or four young black men walking down the street, I have to stop them and check their names. I want them to be afraid every time they see the police that they might get arrested.”

...I’m sure that’s a really productive thing to do…instead of looking for actual criminals and such…

Can someone remind me who won the Civil War?  I thought I knew, but now I’m not so sure any more…

Well, this is Louisiana. Not surprised. Disappointed. And my blood boils about cop brutality anyway (we had a case in Montreal rather recently, and this weekend the protests about the police brutality devolved into riots).

On Orcinus, David Neiwert had a story about whites who ‘defended their neighborhood’ during the Hurricane Katrina debacle by going out and shooting blacks. These vigilantes are not in prison.

“With the federal investigation ongoing, I’m sure the truth will come out.”

...maybe.  Kind of depends on how many Bush moles are involved…

“But when the family’s story is so improbable, I have a hard time assuming that the police are lying.”

...just entering your teenage years and not yet familiar with the real world?  Or have you been living under a rock…since you were born…?

What concerns me most is that the ‘unnamed’ cop moved to plant a gun on the victim, with all those people watching him do so.  I mean, what the fucking fuck?

The witnesses were n*ggers.  They weren’t law-abiding citizens locked behind their doors in fear.

If they didn’t have a warrant, they had no business going in the house.  Just wanting to talk to someone, not coming to arrest them, not having any warrant doesn’t give them the right to barge into the house after him.

Or at least it shouldn’t, should we still have our 4th Amendment rights

Mitch, it’s Louisiana.  He may have had it on the porch for any reason, and took it inside at night.  Since the feds are investigating, I’m having a hard time believing the family’s story is improbable.

Cue cookie.

police officers don’t generally go around shooting people for no reason, because officers who do that go to jail.

You must be new to Pandagon.

But you’re not. Is this duplicity typical of you?

“police officers don’t generally go around shooting people for no reason, because officers who do that go to jail.”

Wow. Where do you live? Cause here in Southern California, cops shoot people all the fucking time (don’t come outside at night, just assume that noise is NOT a burglar) and nothing ever happens to them.

He kept a handgun in plain sight on the front porch?  That doesn’t make sense.

Who are you to judge how someone exercises his Second Amendment right to protect his home and family? Does not this man, too, have the right to bear arms, or is that only for “the right people”? Wayne LaPierre warned me about people like you…

“police officers don’t generally go around shooting people for no reason, because officers who do that go to jail. “

Mitchforth, you really, really, really need to go here:
http://www.theagitator.com/category/paramilitary-police-raids/
and here:
http://www.theagitator.com/category/police-professionalism/
and here:
http://www.theagitator.com/category/general-drug-war/
The links are from Radley Balko’s libertarian website, “The Agitator”.

Please also note this story:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061901161_pf.html
where the WaPo notes a very large DC-area PD which kills, wounds and attacks people with regularity and never, ever, ever is held accountable.  The only reason that attention is coming now is that they raided the house of a local mayor, shot his dogs, broke the law in doing the raid, (etc.).

When did “law-abiding citizens” and “young black men” become mutually exclusive? That statement alone is all kinds of fucked up.

I have no doubt that the saddest part of this story is going to be the ending. At best, these guys will be removed from duty, and at worst, they’ll hardly get a slap on the wrist. No justice for this grandfather.

But the officer’s story sounds more likely to be true, and, contrary to whatever your worldview is, police officers don’t generally go around shooting people for no reason, because officers who do that go to jail.

S’how’s the weather these days in Fantasyland?

Way back in 1983, when I was a newly arrived freshman—pre-frosh, actually, as I lived several months on campus during the summer before my first classes started in September—I held a job working for a Geography professor, Dr Ned Munger, whose area of expertise was Africa. I cross-referenced and filed periodical articles (only the ones written in English) from African publications; the vast majority were from South Africa. This was at the height of the various movements in the USA (and elsewhere I suppose) to divest in the apartheid regime; not by coincidence it was also the height of the Reagan Administration’s “Constructive Engagement” policy. The end of the Nationalist (apartheid) government was very far from sight at the time.

I’d come to the job already thinking of South Africa as a classic police state, quasi- (perhaps actually) fascist regime; what surprised me the most, in reading English-language South African newspapers and news magazines (ranging from a tabloid published in Soweto, or at any rate for a Sowetan market, through the mainstream dailies to the Rand Financial Mail, SA’s answer to “The Economist”) was how very normal a lot of it read to someone like me used to typical “small-town” US daily newspapers—or for that matter, compared even to the US national weekly news magazines, which I read pretty diligently at that time. Here I was expecting stuff straight out of Goebbels’s Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment and I was getting pretty much “The Panama City [Florida] News-Herald”, or even the local Pasadena newspaper.

But there was stuff I didn’t expect to see in US papers; stories about the demolition and expulsion of people from their shanty-town homes under Apartheid policies, for instance.

There was one story that totally rocked me back; there was a man named, IIRC, Saul Mkhizie—an old man, acting as spokesman for his fellow villagers—townsmen really, as this was apparently a long-established, fairly “modern” settlement of native Africans (don’t remember the tribe—not Zulu, perhaps Xhosa…) who were being evicted from their homes since their settlement was now zoned as a whites-only area. The newspaper article detailed how he peacefully, respectfully, confronted the police with his plea for his people not to be made homeless—and how they shot him down on the spot.

I was naive then and I’m still a sap now I guess because remembering reading about this brings tears to my eyes again. That, I thought, was something we don’t do in the USA!

Except of course, nowadays I know we damn well do. We tear up shanty-towns; we evict people from long-established homes, and we shoot old black men dead in the streets.

The difference is, our vaunted American free press doesn’t cover it, not even as well as these South African organs under an explicit regime of police censorship did. I wasn’t reading about it the News-Herald, or even Los Angeles Times or Time or Newsweek, but even as I wept over Mr. Mkhizie, American homelessness was building into a tidal wave that eventually everyone would notice, and meanwhile police killings like his were and always had been too “normal” to make the news. (Eventually, in Sonoma County, decades later, I’d learn that that liberal bastion had a higher per capita police homicide rate than Los Angeles or Orange Counties…and it had been that way a very long time…I almost became one of those statistics myself there once…)

I was more right than I knew, seeing the South African papers as being practically interchangable with ours—except that if anything, it seems now they were better.

” the officer more inclined to believe he sees a gun in the hand of a black person, rather than a cell phone? I think that is possible.”
“

Funny how several studies showed that police were actually less likely to see a gun in the hand of a black rather then a cell phone while the common public was far more likely to see the gun and shoot to kill. Oh also it was more then not black civilians and cops who wound up shooting the black guy holding a cell phone.

Sorry but statiscally a cop is more likely to get shot at or killed by a black person so of course they are more trigger happy it’s a reflex. Honestly people should know to have their hands open without any object in them when they are approched by a police officer. Much less likely to die that way.

Also a loaded gun on the porch where any one including a child could pick it up and use it? Isn’t that something that can get you arrested especially if the gun is stolen?

police officers don’t generally go around shooting people for no reason, because officers who do that go to jail.

No they don’t, because jury rooms are full of people like you who are so desperate to believe the nice officer’s story that they will trip over themselves in a rush to embrace the first even remotely plausible version of events that he presents them.

Sorry but statiscally a cop is more likely to get shot at or killed by a black person

Cite a statistical study as a source for this or STFU.

Sorry but statiscally a cop is more likely to get shot at or killed by a black person so of course they are more trigger happy it’s a reflex

Not acceptable.  Even if your cite-free claim were true, it is unacceptable for a cop to be trigger-happy at all, much less more trigger-happy when confronting black people.

Do you truly not see how incredibly racist your statement is?  And how the racism in it completely destroys any possible defense you were thinking of providing police officers?

——————-
You cannot challenge police officer’s testimony in court.  You cannot call them liars unless you have a case against them for misconduct.  If your lawyer tells the court that the police officer is lying, the jury will side with the cop every time.

One of Chicago’s police officers with the best DUI arrest record was just caught falsifying his report.  A video camera on his dash caught the reality, which was the man was sober, and not falling down drunk as in his report.  The prosecutors, once they reviewed the tape immediately dropped the case, but if that tape had remained “lost” the man arrested would have been found guilty.

Chicago is vigilant about putting up ‘red-light’ cameras to fine motorists.  Chicago is extremely resistant to putting video cameras in cop cars.

Why is that, do you think?

“Sorry but statiscally a cop is more likely to get shot at or killed by a black person

Cite a statistical study as a source for this or STFU.
“

www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf

1976-1998 covers both justified police homicides and police killed by felons.
From the study

The highest rates of justifiable homicide
are of young black males. Of the
Nation’s 3.4 million young black males
(black males under age 25) in 1998, 48
were justifiably killed by police. That
year, young black males made up 1% of
the total U.S. population but 14% of
felons justifiably killed by police. By
comparison, of the Nation’s 18.3 million
young white males, 53 were justifiably
killed. Young white males were 7% of
the population and 15% of those killed
in 1998.

Young black males
murdered police officers at a rate
almost 6 times that of young white
males

Yeah, those 73 year old young males do tend to be mighty dangerous.

” is unacceptable for a cop to be trigger-happy at all, much less more trigger-happy when confronting black people.”

It’s called reality. White cops are far less likely to shot black people then black cops. Black civilians are far more likely to shot black people then white people are.

Sorry but black people are their own worst enemy when it comes to race relations.

Young black males murdered police officers at a rate almost 6 times that of young white males

This may be true, but the man who was killed was an old black male. Old people have almost a 0% chance of killing a cop.

Also, black women have been shot and killed by the cops. Women, of any race, have almost no record of killing cops.

I also wonder how many “justifiable” homicides and “cops killed by felons” are situations like, for example, Mumia Abu-Jamal. The famous death row inmate was convicted of killing a policeman with a lot of irregularities in his conviction and the evidence, but the one thing that no one disputes was that the policeman he is accused of killing was beating the shit out of Abu-Jamal’s brother at the time that he was shot. Now, I don’t know about you, but I have brothers, and if I had a gun in my car and I was driving by and saw a person beating the shit out of *my* brother, I might very well shoot the fucker who was beating my brother. Except, of course, that cops are legally allowed to beat the shit out of anyone, for any reason, and the smallest amount of resistance is considered illegal. If someone is beating you, or has routinely beaten you for tiny infractions or for no infraction at all, or has been routinely beating your family members, would it surprise anyone if you finally snapped and shot the asshole?

It wouldn’t really surprise me that black men might kill cops more often than white men do, given that black men are disproportionately beaten by police, targeted by police, abused by police, robbed by police, and unjustifiably shot by police. At that point, it starts to look like self-defense.

tootired,

go fuck yourself.

“given that black men are disproportionately beaten by police”

Often because they resist arrest or are attacking someone and refuse the order to stop.

“targeted by police”

As being part of a gang or believed to have gang affilations due to intel provided by people in the neighborhood. Funny that to get crime down in areas it’s often very effective to target the gangs who happen to be in black neighborhoods gasp black. It happens in white neighborhoods that have gangs in them the gangs are white.

“abused by police”

Often by people who have no idea what the police can legally do so they just call it abuse.

“robbed by police”

It’s not legal to have drugs or stolen property on you or property acquired by illegal means.

” unjustifiably shot by police”

Well whites have a habit of not reaching their back when approched by the police. If you got pulled over and opened your door you have a high chance of getting shot no matter what color.

“Old people have almost a 0% chance of killing a cop.
“

Dead wrong.

“
Women, of any race, have almost no record of killing cops.
“

Dead wrong. 
“
go fuck yourself. “

Sorry but I am not the one being reamed by reality.

What concerns me most is that the ‘unnamed’ cop moved to plant a gun on the victim, with all those people watching him do so.  I mean, what the fucking fuck?

He obviously thought he could get away with it - that the authorities would take his word over that of a dozen witnesses. Let’s hope he was wrong.

Everybody get a grip.  The race issue is distracting you from the more pressing threats.

American police forces and their officers are almost completely:
* beyond the control of their own internal policies and procedures (where those policies and procedures aren’t screwed up or neutered in the first place);
* safe from any substantive and effective internal investigation of their own wrongdoing;
* safe from any risk of prosecution in those rare cases where an internal investigation results in charges;
* immune from conviction in those cases where they go to trial.

Further, they are becoming increasingly :
* militarized in their equipment and operations;
* militarized in their outlook, planning, psychology and reactions;
* aggressive towards the public;
* more inclined to use both deadly and non-deadly force;
* disdainful of any kind of restraints whatsoever on their behaviour, be it legal or ethical or normal community standards of behaviour;
* hostile to supervision of their activities;
* hostile to even independent observation of their activities.

In each case you can point to a tiny group of non-representational cases where this is not so, but isolated incidents of the law actually working vis-a-vis police doesn’t mean that the law is operating effectively at any other times.

Focus on the race issues and you miss the key issue: your cops are rapidly becoming a lawless, independent, unrestrained, aggressive and often hysterically violent force in your society towards everybody.  The problem may be worse for blacks but all of you in the crosshairs now.

Good grief, tootiredoftheright, your own source contradicts you! Cop-killers are female at a rate of between 1 and 2 percent, irrespective of race according to the document linked (a document based entirely on self-reporting by the police themselves with no measure of reporting bias).

Even if tootrollful’s were posting in good faith, his statistics don’t mean what he contends they mean. For example, if (as we happen to know is the case) police in many jurisdictions stop young black male pedestrians or drivers at a much higher rate than they do young white males, then even if all else is equal—the proportion of each group believed to be felons, the proportion of them armed, the rate at which the police or the suspects escalate to deadly force—you will have a disproportionate number of young black males killed by police officers and a disproportionate number of police officers killed by young black males. Not because they’re necessarily any more lawless, but just because they’re having that many more interactions with police. (Note, for example, that the police chief in the story doesn’t say he hassles groups of young white males walking together just to keep them in line.)

“Not because they’re necessarily any more lawless, but just because they’re having that many more interactions with police.”

Of course said interactions with the police are often in response to calls reporting criminal activity. Sorry but blacks do commit crimes at a rate far higher then their population would dictate if they were actually into being lawfull or at least not being open about their lawbreaking.

“For example, if (as we happen to know is the case) police in many jurisdictions stop young black male pedestrians or drivers at a much higher rate than they do young white males,”

So what is the problem when those areas are often high crime areas that have happen to have a large black presense in them? Of course blacks are going to get stopped at a rate higher then whites it’s because whites don’t travel through those areas that much.

“(Note, for example, that the police chief in the story doesn’t say he hassles groups of young white males walking together just to keep them in line.)
“

Lets see groups of young male blacks walking together these days or idling around usually does indicate a gang or drug trafficking. Sorry but that is the truth. Back in the 1950s and 1960s it was indeed white kids who got hassled for doing that but then that was the race of the troublemakers according to police agencies in that era so it makes sense they were targeted.

“For example, if (as we happen to know is the case) police in many jurisdictions stop young black male pedestrians or drivers at a much higher rate than they do young white males,”

So what is the problem when those areas are often high crime areas that have happen to have a large black presense in them?

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2008/12/galveston_false_arrest.php

“your own source contradicts you!”

No it doesn’t. The claim was there was almost no record and I said dead wrong meaning there is a record.

tootired, “almost no record” and “there is a record” are not mutually exclusive.  The latter means that there is a record; the former means that what records exist are next to none. 

Shootings of police by the elderly certainly happen; there was an appalling one in Texas, iirc, where an elderly rancher gunned down a police officer live on his cruiser camera.  But they are very, very rare.

I’d note, also, that if there as a gun on the porch and it troubled the officer then there was nothing to stop him picking it up and saying, “I’ll just hold on to this while we talk”, then unloading it and leaving it when he departed.

Of the
Nation’s 3.4 million young black males
(black males under age 25) in 1998, 48
were justifiably killed by police.

In 2000, an LAPD officer shot a man in the back four times through the window of a house where a Halloween party was going on.

The shooting was ruled justified because the victim was holding a gun as part of his Halloween costume.

A year later, an LAPD officer shot and killed a 55-year-old homeless woman who argued with him when he stopped her to check if her shopping cart was legal. 

The shooting was ruled justified because the officer claimed she lunged at him with a screwdriver and the only way he could stop a 5-foot-tall homeless woman was to shoot her dead.

Police shootings are always ruled justified.  Good luck finding one that’s not.  Even when a BART officer shot an unarmed man in the back while he was being held down by officers, only the fact that it was captured on videotape led to him being arrested, much less tried.  And he’ll probably get off, because people like you will sit on the jury and say, “Well, he must have thought the guy was dangerous.  Good thing the officer killed him and protected the rest of us.”

The LA shooting story that Mnemosyne links to has this little gem of dark, dark humour:

Lt. Horace Frank told the Times the shots in the back could be explained. He added the department would first need to review the autopsy report.

Translation: We gotta see what the autopsy says so we can craft our bullshit story to conform to it.

Lets see groups of young male blacks walking together these days or idling around usually does indicate a gang or drug trafficking. Sorry but that is the truth. Back in the 1950s and 1960s it was indeed white kids who got hassled for doing that but then that was the race of the troublemakers according to police agencies in that era so it makes sense they were targeted.

You racist fucking piece of shit. Groups of young black males usually indicates gangs or drug trafficking? Because some young black males take part in illegal activities, you think it’s justified to paint all of them with the same brush? Even though every demographic contains criminals? Gee, I wonder why young black men might turn to crime when constantly faced with people like you assuming they’re criminals. Congratulations. You’re officially part of the problem.

Incidentally, do you really think that in the 50s and 60s white kids were targeted by police more than black kids? Really?

Part of the problem, Mitchforth, is that American police as a class have gradually whored away their credibility by bad shoots, brazen lies and disdain for truth and oversight.  Worse, the ones that don’t act like thugs either actively or passively cover the asses of those that do.  They let the bad cops flourish, then whine that people treat them like they’re all bad cops.

Let’s assume that these cops that shot an elderly man in his own yard are telling the truth.  When you put on the uniform you accept the bad with the good, and the bad is simply this: American police forces have gone so far downhill so fast, so visibly and so arrogantly [see my 10:12pm] that they really aren’t in a position to complain when people are incorrect in assuming the worst.  They want to be taken seriously again?  Be taken at their word again?  It’s not our responsibility to make it so, it’s theirs to make it happen.

Shorter Mitch: “That n***er had it coming and cops are perfect and always right, so shut the fuck up, you n***er-lovers!”

Shorter what-I’d-say-to-Mitch-were-he-standing-right-here: “Get up off my floor and get out of my house.”  I’d post my whole diatribe against him, but I’d surely offend everyone here and be banned permanently for it.

Oh, and tooracistfortheright?  I suspected you were a troll some time ago, and now I’ve got my confirmation.  Go back to whatever troll site you crawled over from and tell them how stupid we obviously are.

Sorry but black people are their own worst enemy when it comes to race relations.

Here we go, troll—so all black people are the problem. We’re all gang-bangers and hoods. Jesus H. Christ, I guess the country is being led by someone who is “part of the problem” too. What racist bullshit. You’ve made the point about implicit bias (and explicit bias). Any law-abiding black person you encounter is under suspicion that you believe is justified before they’ve opened their mouth. Yes, racism is dead.

“Incidentally, do you really think that in the 50s and 60s white kids were targeted by police more than black kids? Really? “

Yes the records do show that white kids during the 50s and 60s were more of a target and concern then black kids.

After all most gangs, crime syndicates originating in the US till recently were predominatly white.

“The shooting was ruled justified because the victim was holding a gun as part of his Halloween costume.”

Was this a real gun or a toy gun? How was the officer supposed to know it was a prop and not a real gun that the person was going to use to kill people in the party? What was the person doing with the gun was he pointing it at people? Tell me what the public reaction would have been if the cop hadn’t shot and the person had killed several people in the party? The public would have condemened the police.

“Yes, racism is dead.”

So blacks aren’t racist? Sorry but blacks are incredibly racist especially in the south.

Tell me if blacks didn’t have a cultural movement towards glorifying criminals would the black community have so many people turning towards a life of drug dealing? Funny how many blacks admit that they admire that lifestyle and want to become those people even while admitting it will lead them to their graves and in the end isn’t worth it.

Tell me if blacks actually respected the police and used the proper channels instead of rioting or making baseless accusations and well actually become police officers in record numbers would the police interactions be far more non violent since well it would black officers patrolling the black community and interacting with them rather then whites who would become racist due to interactions with black racists?

That is what I mean by black people are their own worst enemy when it comes to race relations. You have large numbers of blacks who proclaim conspiracy that a black will never win say a contest over a white man and proclaim a conspiracy that when the black person wins said contest.

My former brother-in-law was a police officer for a large Upstate NY city. I remember hearing racist comments from him that shocked me and would have gotten him fired from the force had they been made in a public forum. I also remember him stating that in his precinct, the same 20 to 30 people accounted for better than 80% of the crime. Witnessing the daily tide of urban violence, I believe police officers unconsciously develop an emotional scarring that inures them to the human suffering that fills their typical workday.  While I don’t condone his racism, I understand how a cop’s outlook may be distorted by daily contact with a violence born of poverty and hopelessness. Unfortunately, most police departments take better care of their weapons and equipment than the men and women charged with policing the community.

“The practice of violence, like all action, changes the world, but the most probable change is a more violent world.” Hannah Arendt, Reflections on Violence

“I also remember him stating that in his precinct, the same 20 to 30 people accounted for better than 80% of the crime.”

Many police officers would tell you that when they catch a guy he had likely done dozens more crimes then he would be convicted for. Often times without any witnesses to press charges or testify they have to let the perp go and the guy often brags about doing these crimes so why wouldn’t the cop get enraged about it?

Yes the records do show that white kids during the 50s and 60s were more of a target and concern then black kids.

After all most gangs, crime syndicates originating in the US till recently were predominatly white…

tootiredoftheright on 03/17 at 02:53 AM

The latter doesn’t at all imply the former, you know. It assumes what you need to prove which is, “that police are rational, neutral agents of justice and order who act evenhandedly and proportionately against all theats to public safety.” I know plenty that flat contradicts what you claim “the records,” whichever “records” you might be citing, show.

If I stipulate you might actually have records that appear to bear out your claim, I can think of many forms of selection bias at work:

1) a major dimension of modern US racism, one well-evolved by the 50’s, was and is geographical segregation. If you look at the records of a gazillion “Mayberry RFDs” which tend, historically, to have been “sundown towns” where Americans of color long ago learned it was dangerous for them to go, it would be easy to swamp the records of those jurisdictions where they were allowed to live in the first place.

2) divergent reporting standards: It was, and we here generally contend still is, typical for police to have very different standards of interaction with white and non-white people, and so it is entirely likely that comparable instances of violence against respective persons from each group got reported differently.

Of course the geographical factor would interact—jurisdictions that patrolled non-white populations could have had, and I believe did have, very different standards both in their behavior and their reporting of same overall. But I also think that double standards in handling and reporting particular cases within jurisdictions were and are the norm, not the exception.

3) Overall of course, “minorities” tend to be in fact minorities—there are generally lots more “white” people. So if you say “records from the 50s and 60s show more concern with white crime than non-white” well, they had better—there are more white criminals in any category! The same is true today of course but noting that would undermine your point. “Until recently” indeed!

Which leads me to the real doubts I have—I don’t trust you or your “records” on this point at all.

“if you say “records from the 50s and 60s show more concern with white crime than non-white” well, they had better—there are more white criminals in any category! The same is true today of course”

Sorry but data on gangs says otherwise. Until the 70s most gangs in the cities were predominatly white. The mafia and other criminal groups didn’t accept blacks. Black gangsters were a rarity outside of Harlem.

This is not only from who research the history of gangs but the police, press etc. Sorry but reality states that blacks are far more likely to commit crimes and be involved with gangs then whites. Far far higher number then percantage of population would dictate. Also poverty doesn’t seem to be the differational factor since you have the Amerind tribes living in far worse conditions and crime isn’t as prevalant while suicide is much higher.

Lets see groups of young male blacks walking together these days or idling around usually does indicate a gang or drug trafficking. Sorry but that is the truth.

Fuck you.

“Fuck you.”

Sorry but it is the truth fucking you. Even blacks admit they do not want such groups in their neighborhoods or around their stores or around their children.

I think somebody just overstayed their welcome… a couple threads past, but this just takes the cake. If you’re ‘too tired of the right’, why are you parroting their talking points?

Wow.

If every interaction a cop has with a suspect is potentially dangerous, then it must also be true that every interaction a suspect has with a cop is potentially dangerous. So if you’re trying to justify that cops as “trigger-happy,” you have to justify that inclination on the parts of the suspects too, no?

Of course, the onus here is on the cops to not escalate things, since they’re the ones with training and backup. Yes, mistakes happen, but *more* mistakes happen when the civilian half the population has good reason to believe the cops are inclined to abuse of authority and infliction of physical damage.

This discussion reminds me of discussions I’ve had at work (years ago) about rape and its causes.

Despite the 100% moral clarity of rpe being wrong, there’s always somebody who claims the victim was wearing the wrong clothes, was in the wrong place, had consumed alcohol, was out too late, etc.

For some people, the rape victim always shares at least some blame for their rape. 

How somebody can hold this morally repugnant view is really difficult for me to understand.  When I look at these situations, the line between proper and wrong is clear and bright.

Mitchforth and tootired seem to live in that world where the victims of racism are always at least partially responsible for the racism aimed at them.  And this is justified because some minority individuals are in gangs, or sell drugs, or involved in other crimes, or are racists themselves.  And this excuses the racist attitudes of some police officers.

Sorry guys, the rest of live in the real world.  The world where a guy is shot in Oakland by the BART cop kneeling on his back and holding him to the ground, just like a gang execution.  The world where Rodney King had the living shit beat out of him because he didn’t stop his car at police command.  The world where the first words spoken when the Katrina tragedy began to unfold were “Why won’t they get out, I guess they’re too stupid to leave,” followed by claims that the football stadium was a war zone of barbaric people acting like barbarians.  The world where a guy can shoot his wife and then claim it was a black gang who attacked them.  A world where the white kids at a school can hang nooses off a tree on the campus, but the black kids get in trouble because of it.

And finally, a world where we have a black president — who was elected (despite his intelligence and accomplishments) only because the Republicans fucked things up so badly and ran such a poor ticket they couldn’t ride 300-years of racism into office, just like any other time.

I will not blithely live in a world where the police are allowed to be judge, jury, and executioner.  I will not live in a world where too many people believe there would be no racism if only those negroes would shuttup and know their place.  I won’t live in a world where having a different skin color, or different hair texture, of differently shaped eyes is license to treat somebody differently.  So I will fight to take this flawed world I actually live in and work toward making it what it should be.  And I know I’m not alone.

If Mitchforth and tootired want to take the scales from their eyes and join us, great.  If not, then please step aside, keep your mouths shut, and let the rest of us do what needs to be done…

“why are you parroting their talking points”

Reality is not a talking point. The reality is that cops are far less likely to shot an innocent person then a civilian especially a black civilian would. The reality is that cops are a target due to their uniform and role and since they are a target they become reactive to such a degree the chance of a mistake rises. If they don’t react they die and several civilians would also die. Would you rather the police be at arms ready to react to such situations or just be sitting ducks and die along with several civilians?

No one with sense would make a grab to something on their body when faced by the cops since guess what 99 times out of a 100 a person doing such a grab or movement is reaching for a weapon and if the cop doesn’t fire then the cop or somebody would be injured or killed. Do you think it is unwise for the police to not react quickly to what appears in the blink of an eye to be a reach for a weapon? Said movement and the only reaction to it that can be done in the blink of an eye is to fire upon the person.

When someone is told to get on the ground and they don’t do it why complain when the person then gets restrained? You were warned you disregarded it and paid the price. You only have yourself to blame.

“followed by claims that the football stadium was a war zone of barbaric people acting like barbarians. “

My sister was at the convention center due to the company that was paid by the hospital she worked not being able to get them out. She said it was far worse then the news report let on. She was with tourists that being from Australia and other places due to how they were treated by the blacks during Katrina will never be comfortable around black people ever again and after being rescued by a swat team had to be taken in by a white sheriffs family since they would have freaked being in a shelter with blacks.

Sorry but a lot of racist cops were never racist till they began to get racism from the black neighborhoods they patrolled. Dealing with prisoners turns liberals into racists who beat up prisoners for kicks. Guess what was the cause the prisoners rebuffed the liberal and lied to him among other things.

Gosh, if the cops had planned ahead and brought enough guns to plant, they could have shot the whole family.

Bastards.

I can’t take the racism from commenters such as tootired anymore.  I’m done with this site.

In 23 years the Montreal police force has shot over 40 unarmed people. There have been no convictions for murder or man slaughter. Not one. No sanctions either.

Police protect their own. This is the reality. Just from the stats you could expect at least one of those shootings to have been unjustified. Doctors are sued, and lose, for malpractice all the time. Even good doctors make mistakes. Police? Never.

This is why people don’t buy your crap. We know the KKK and far right outfits recruit in the local police (and the military… plenty of articles about that have come out in recent years). We know many cops have blue uniforms by day, and white sheets by night. We’re not fucking stupid.

Police are not your friends. They’re an occupying force.

“Sorry but a lot of racist cops were never racist till they began to get racism from the black neighborhoods they patrolled. Dealing with prisoners turns liberals into racists who beat up prisoners for kicks.”

It’s telling that you equate people in black neighborhoods with “prisoners”.  Sure seems like a Freudian slip to me.  I also like the implication that cops are innocent liberals until they have to deal with the public (some of whom are not white) and then they become fascist — and somehow this is justified in your mind.

I’m guessing that for every “liberal” cop there are 5-10 not-liberal cops.  The kind of guys who were raised in a culture of racism so common they don’t even notice it.  Combined with an us-versus-them attitude, a bunker mentality, and the last 8-years of regular fear-mongering from the government, you have the makings os a nice fascist police state.

This is how you build the Fourth Reich…

“Guess what was the cause the prisoners rebuffed the liberal and lied to him among other things.”...what?...

I was talking about two groups here. Prison guards and staff who are the most liberal will turn racist after dealing with the prisoners.

You wonder why blacks don’t get served by black wait staff? It’s because the black wait staff refuses to serve them because their work has taught them that most blacks don’t tip, they will complain to try to get free food, they will steal stuff from the restaurant, they will get harrassed by the black customers. So they fob these people off on the white waiters. If you ever hear shouts of I hate N@#@#@ers and I am never serving N****ers in a restaurant and follow the sound to the shouter you will see it will be one of the black wait staff and all the other black wait staff will vocally applaud that statement.

Blacks cops hate black civilians far more then white and asian cops do. Black prison guards hate black people because that is who they get the most abuse from in the prisons. They admit they would join the KKK if they allowed black people in. If the KKK opened it’s doors to other races you would see an overnight increase of their numbers by several hundred percent with it mostly comprising black and asian waiters, black and asian cops, black and asian prison staff.

“In 23 years the Montreal police force has shot over 40 unarmed people.”

What was the race of those people? Funny how a lot of blacks state they like going to Canada since they don’t see any racism from the police or people.

Every racist has some kind of justification in their minds as to why it’s okay to hate.  That doesn’t make the hate right.

At least we’ve demonstrated Pam’s overarching theme, that racism is most certainly not dead in America, and it will take a hell of a lot more than just electing a black man as president to make it disappear…

“that racism is most certainly not dead in America,”

Everyone is a racist. It will never die. It has always existed. Also what the hell do you call Blacks who state that Black people cannot be racist?

Can we get pictures of bunnies yet?

Or a disemvoweling?

Normally I like trollbait and the ensuing flame wars, but racist fuckwits make me sick quickly.

Everyone is a racist.

Projection much?

“Projection much? “

Go take one of those tests say the Holocaust Museum or Harvardgives out. The vast majority showed overt signs of racism even if they didn’t consider themselves racist or other people consider them racist.

Several studies using those tests show that 80% of white people harbor negative feelings towards blacks. Even blacks have negative feelings towards blacks.

“Go take one of those tests say the Holocaust Museum or Harvardgives out. The vast majority showed overt signs of racism even if they didn’t consider themselves racist or other people consider them racist.”

...some of us are embarrassed and/or morally outraged by that and want to improve ourselves and our culture — instead of either embracing the racism or thinking that racism is inevitable and sliding into apathy…

I love tootired because I will always treasure his comments that women aren’t represented in construction jobs because we won’t do the work without pink hard hats. Ahh, good times.

It’s getting tiresome, though, and I DO think a disemvoweling is in order.

Incidentally, jackass, I was a server for many, many years. There was absolutely no difference in the tip percentages I got from various different races, and we had a lot of them. In my experience, the only “doesn’t tip well” diving lines are age (the elderly sometimes have trouble with the cognitive dissonance that a dollar just isn’t worth what it used to be) and religion - Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians are terrible tippers, which is why Sunday afternoon is the worst shift in the wolrd, despite the busy schedule.

Race lines - blacks/whites tip the same, complain the same, and steal the same. Which is to say, pretty much everyone tips well, pretty much no one complains, and pretty much no one steals. There is always a bad apple who doesn’t follow the norm, of course, but to generalize that “they” are all “that way” is ridiculous.

So quit saying “black servers” this and that and the other when you are clearly NEITHER.

This is a tragic story, one of way too many that happen in our country.  I hope that justice is served, but I’m doubtful that it will be.

Tootired, you’re a racist fuck.  Your head is filled with garbage.  You sicken me.  Pam, Jesse, Amanda, somebody please ban this shitbag.

Incidentally, everything you write - tootired - comes off like you’ve never left your basement. Ever.

If you ever hear shouts of I hate N@#@#@ers and I am never serving N****ers in a restaurant and follow the sound to the shouter you will see it will be one of the black wait staff and all the other black wait staff will vocally applaud that statement.

I have gone to restaurants multiple times a week, my entire life, and have worked at several on a daily basis, and I’ve never heard “shouts” of ANY kind, let alone of this particular kind.

Do you claim to live in an area where this is a common occurance? Shouting waitstaff who are applauded (appluaded? WTF?) by other waitstaff?

Essie,

I hear that people shout “Where’s my M-Fing iced tea?!” in black restaurants.  It’s true, I saw it on teevee!!!!

As a black man who worked as a server for over 8 years: tootired?  You are FULL of shit.

As if that wasn’t well apprent all ready…

This is absolutely unbelievable. Why are cops held to LOWER standards than the rest of us? Any idiot can fire a weapon - aren’t these men and women hired and trained to be more than just walking trigger fingers?

I’d note, also, that if there as a gun on the porch and it troubled the officer then there was nothing to stop him picking it up and saying, “I’ll just hold on to this while we talk”, then unloading it and leaving it when he departed.

seeker, exactly! There’s so many different things they could have done, but no, gotta turn into John Wayne every time! Why be reasonable and calm (sissy/girl things) when you can be a big manly macho guy! Besides, maybe that elderly black man was secretly a ninja in disguise…you know those ninjas, they’re tricksy!

I’d like to point out that if they are treating one group of people as more of a threat than others based solely on race, police actually make themselves MORE vulnerable.

It’s the “I can’t believe this happened in such a nice neighborhood” syndrome. Read articles about violence perpetrated by whites in predominently white areas and you’ll see that sentiment come up again and again.

BTW- I was a server for several years in both California and Georgia and I worked with people of many races and ethnicites. I don’t know where you are getting your theories from but they’re both racist and untrue. I know this seems like a small point among many, but as one I had direct experience with I felt it needed saying.

TTOR-As to your other arguments; get off your ass and do the work. I am sick of having to put effort into undoing the sloppy thinking of small minded people.

Tootired is racist and unwilling to examine his prejudices.  Congratulations to those of who managed to not only notice this, but turn the entire thread into an indepth analysis of this fact!

Specifically, a shout-out to those commenters on this thread who engage in the same logical fallacies they accuse tootired of.  I mean, really, generalizing about all police because of the brutal actions of some?  Are there problems with police structure, militarization, and all the excellent points raised by people like seeker6079 and MikeEss?  Of course.

However, on behalf of those hard-working police *I’ve* encountered who have responded with patience, forebearance, and extreme courtesy in extremely difficult situations involving helping people in mental health crisis, I have only one thing to say to people like Scott, who within *three posts* came up with this gem:

“Police in America are just a legalized street gang.”

Fuck you.

More on topic: 

Obviously the increased militarization of police and resistance to oversight are enormous problems that have been discussed extensively at sites like theagitator.com.  I do not mean to imply in any way, shape, or form that the documented problems represent anything but a pervasive sickness in our local law enforcement.  The trending of local police units into de facto SWAT teams in terms of deployment and equipment is enormously disturbing, and I personally feel effective oversight is only going to come from federal intervention (the report of an investigation begun on this repugnant incident is heartening, even if at this point I am not optimistic), or in some cases state governments where political will exists.

On the local scale, many communities across America are working hard to “disarm” many necessary and important police functions, as seen in (admittedly imperfect implementations of) “sanctuary cities” (on paper, at least, attempting to serve legitimate needs of residents regardless of immigration status, though as we’ve seen, several cities still provide assistance to ICE at a higher level), homelessness outreach officers in San Francisco attempting to resolve so-called quality of life issues by referral to services instead of citations and/or incarceration, intensive training of particular officers in responding to mental health crises correctly and appropriately, and so forth.  I personally find this model of community-oriented policework (or whatever you want to call it) something to be encouraged and strengthened, and would be very interested in others’ thoughts on the subject and/or relevant materials that I might not be aware of.

To put it more succinctly:  law enforcement will always be a necessary evil.  I’d much rather hear about and discuss effective ways to constrain and oversee such, rather than blanket statements that seem to aim towards the abolishment of all such powers, which to me seems prelude to a poorly-thought out libertarian or anarchist viewpoint with what should be fairly obvious drawbacks.

Either tootired is removed, or I remove him myself.  I’m tired of this shit.

As for you, S&S;: If you don’t like how cops are being portrayed, work to fix the system instead of whining about us.  Nobody’s saying we should get rid of police, just that our current ones are, by and large, corrupt and untouchable.  Don’t put words in people’s mouths, or you’ll go the way of tooracist and other slimebags.

Signals, I get what you’re saying, but it’s enormously frustrating to live in one of those places where something needs to be done, and the police are fighting it. No matter how many independent auditors the city council appoints, no matter how many reviews each case is given, when the leaders of the police force are fighting the oversight every step of the way, even though they know that it was on their watch that (in my town’s case) officers were raping women for years, threatening them to keep them silent, it’s very hard for the public to trust the force as a whole. I like individual police officers, but I can’t trust a force that worked together to hide rape and that has leaders who think their right to autonomy is greater than women’s right to safety. After years of watching the battles, it’s awfully hard not to get frustrated and just curse the entire force. While I intellectually know that law enforcement is necessary, some days I just want the police disbanded and to start over from the ground up.

I’d guess, on the basis of that avalanche of gobsmackingly stupid stereotypes, psuedo-factoids and cliches, that old “tootired” doesn’t actually know any black people personally.  Not a one.

I used to be kind of like that, though not so cocksure nor nearly so hostile, way back when I was an ignorant nine-year-old.  Ooh, ooh, black people, scary!!! up until the day when the Federal government forcibly integrated Belleair Elementary School in 1964.  Try actually talking to a black person some time, “tootired”!  They’re people. They won’t bite you.

Nobody’s saying we should get rid of police

Somebody is, and that somebody is me. There has been a lot of research into alternate forms of justice, like reparative justice, and while we will all be agreed that some sort of security or protection is necessary in society (it would be a lot less if crimes of necessity were made obsolete by anarcho-communism…), the idea that the *police* (which I define as a professional caste of unelected and unrecallable people given special powers by the state to prosecute criminals) is necessary to assume that function is to me as ludicrous as people from previous centuries claiming religion was necessary to society because it was the church that ran the schools and hospitals.

Sorry but it is the truth fucking you. Even blacks admit they do not want such groups [of young black men] in their neighborhoods or around their stores or around their children.

Their children are such groups you sack of shit.  Their neighborhoods are such groups.

Some people might think that the presence of children at Bernard Monroe’s house makes his murder all the more disgusting.  TooTired thinks the children indicated gang activity, and if the cops got scared and blasted them all to hell, well heck, you can’t blame police for getting twitchy with all those spooks around!  They should consider themselves lucky to be alive, and stop doing suspicious things like associating with other black people.

Again, fuck you.

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, I’m rather rushed on a project and am responding one at a time.

“If you don’t like how cops are being portrayed, work to fix the system instead of whining about us.”

Wow, it’s like you didn’t even read my posts.  The first one, granted, was snarkiness about trolls, and me taking personal offense about blanket statements.  But in the second one, I did sort of bring up the concepts of oversight, and talked about actions being taken in various locales.  Kudos to you for missing that.

And as it happens, I DO work to fix the system, have participated in police oversight committee meetings, and have worked with COPWATCH in responding to police calls with recording equipment (fortunately, none of the calls I worked on resulted in anything as horrific as all the examples that have been brought up).  I would have preferred you to infer that I had some direct experience from the offense I took at some comments, and the specific situations to which I referred, or at least evidenced some curiosity about my experiences.

Instead of whining about you (plural), I’ll whine again about you (singular)—a person who jumped to the wrong conclusion and make sweeping generalizations about my uselessness in society.  And just to make sure I’m not misjudging you, what exactly, pray tell, are YOU doing, other than posting insulting comments on blogs?

“Nobody’s saying we should get rid of police…Don’t put words in people’s mouths, or you’ll go the way of tooracist and other slimebags.”

“Somebody is, and that somebody is me.”

I’ll let that speak for itself.  But thanks for calling me a potential slimebag (at best!).  Appreciate how you treat a first-time poster, even one as sarcastic and long-winded as I am.  If this is the general feeling in this commenting community, please let me know and I’ll go elsewhere…

To be fair, my definition of police is broader than BlackBloc’s.  I define *police* as, to parallel BlackBloc’s statement:  a professional caste of people given special powers by the state to maintain order in communities, answerable and accountable to elected officials and the members of that community. 

BlackBloc (directly): I feel like we’re simply in an issue of semantics at the moment.  However, as you’ve stated it I completely agree with your analogy to the “necessity” of religious organizations in community services.  I think I also wasn’t very specific in my definition of “police”, since I consider that term to cover an extremely wide range of legal and enforcement activities.  For example, I consider the failure of the legal system (i.e. DA’s, courts, legislatures, juries, ...) to punish actions like the one covered in the original post reprehensible, and tend to lump this in when I talk about “police”.  Perhaps naivete on my part, but as I see it (a) reigning in rogue police officers/organizations is necessary, (b) local law enforcement is either unable and unwilling (or both, really) to handle that responsibility,  (d) our *elected* leaders are completely failing us in regards to legislation and enforcement priorities. 

Case in point:  I live in San Francisco, and I’ll use the notorious example of “Fajitagate”, where the son of the police chief assaulted a citizen in order to confiscate the food he was carrying, injuring the man in the process.  It took overwhelming citizen outrage and nonstop local journalism to OVERCOME the local political establishment even to get the officer restricted to a *desk job*, let alone removed from the force.  I put the failure for lack of reaction squarely on the mayor of San Francisco for enabling and conspiring in protecting the offending officer, and on the District Attorney, who right of the bat declined to prosecute.  While this case is not nearly as brutal as some, I think it very clearly illustrates the power dynamic you were talking about BlackBloc, and you’re absolutely right about how frustrating it is to see the leadership failing to take any responsibility or work to correct the problems.

Shorter version:  our elected officials are failing us, repeatedly and with full knowledge of what they do, and must be held accountable by the electorate before anything is going to fundamentally change.  Plus, media coverage (a whole different topic, but obviously a big one).

So in apology, this became much longer and more rambling than I wanted it to, and if I had time I’d go back and neaten it up and get rid of the constant repetition of themes.  If I see a reason to respond to further comments, I’ll do that in future.

Av0gradro (love the name, btw)—your point is well taken, and I think I really gave a bad impression out of frustration with particular posts.  I guess I feel that there’s really no practical way to scrap and rebuild, and that the only way to actually reform these institutions is through supporting (a) local efforts to improve performance (terrible way of putting it, but I’m in a rush), and (b) holding our elected officials accountable for who they appoint and who they enable.  I know in some cases the police chief is elected, and that’s a very direct pressure that can be applied by the electorate, but in many, leverage is extremely difficult to get at because the chief serves at the pleasure of the mayor/city council/board of supervisors/what-have-you.  Therefore, citizen oversight boards, even if only advisory, are an absolute MUST; if nothing else, they can serve as a place of record and inquiry for abuses that have taken place, which can at least be used to support reform down the road.

Finally, If someone could point me to a reference for formatting of comments on this site, I’d appreciate it.

Holy shit - tootiredoftheright was about as bad a troll as I’ve ever seen on here. I hope he was nuked. You didn’t know where to begin to respond to that POS. But he hit all of the “right” notes.

But what happened to cookie, or does a Taser have to be the weapon of choice to get him into the comments?

But what happened to cookie, or does a Taser have to be the weapon of choice to get him into the comments?

Dollars to dogshit says he’s got someting set up to alert him whenever there’s a Taser story.

S&S;: Nope, sorry, I didn’t “miss” anything.  On the contrary, I saw your attempt to paint yourself as superior.  You fail.  (By the way, formatting is done with HTML here - there’s your answer.)

the idea that the *police* (which I define as a professional caste of unelected and unrecallable people given special powers by the state to prosecute criminals)

You sound a whole hell of a lot like an extremist right-winger screaming about “activist unelected judges”.  I think you need to cool off - say, in my killfile next to S&S;and tooracist.

tootiredoftheright (My ass); you are a useless fucking racist piece of shit. please darwin yourself post haste.

<i>Lets see groups of young male blacks walking together these days or idling around usually does indicate a gang or drug trafficking.</ik>

walking down the street while being black is a crime? die in a fire, you fucking idiot. you are too stupid to live. go back to your fucking KKK until you can learn how to use the brain that you obviously have to have in order to keep you alive.

Blue Fielder—thanks for the html info, will use it in future as warranted.

As to the rest… I confess I’m a little shocked.  Maybe I’m too sensitive for the frontier of blog comments, but I did find it somewhat insulting being directly compared to racist trolls, then being condescendingly told to “do something” when in fact I already am trying to do just that!

But, as you have not addressed anything of substance in my (too-long) posts, or my question to you, I’ll just operate under the assumption that you’re a jackass until other people tell me otherwise.

Cheers!

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/wml3/pdf/Black_White_Tip_Norm.pdf

So Essie the Elephent fuck you. There have been numerous studies done by not only sociologial professors but the Resturant and Hotel Industry itself. These studies found that servers hated serving blacks and often 90-94% reported that black servers refused to serve blacks since they could get whites to serve the black customers since the whites would be considered less likely to refuse in order to not be called racist.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_37_36/ai_91821430

“Why are cops held to LOWER standards than the rest of us?”

They aren’t at all. Cops are trained and have procedures to follow when shootings occur to determine what happened. Those things take time. Guess what the police officer is removed from duty for a time and has his gun turned over but apparently according to the comments of many such a thing doesn’t happen and they want instant action instead of the investigation that occurs.

The truth is that civilians in such a situation are far more often to shot an innocent unarmed person then a police officer would.

“some of us are embarrassed and/or morally outraged by that and want to improve ourselves and our culture “

Yet those same little studies and tests show you cannot ever get rid of it entirely. It’s always in you and guess what those little tests show I am one of the least racist people. Oh when 80% of people have racist beliefs and 50% of those have it strongly no matter wheter they are black or white that means I am far less racist then you. Liberals btw often are very deeply racist and the anger they show at being confronted with truth shows that hatred buried deep inside them. It’s reverse racism in action instead of being a non racist often outspoken liberals such as you are often as racist as the KKK.

That’s one bitter cracker.

<i?>When someone is told to get on the ground and they don’t do it why complain when the person then gets restrained? You were warned you disregarded it and paid the price. You only have yourself to blame.</i>

TADA, we have pure unadulterated victim blaming. if you tell me you don’t think rape victims deserve it too, tootired, i’ll call you a fucking liar. please remove yourself, no one here wants your disgusting words infecting this site.

“walking down the street while being black is a crime? die in a fire, you fucking idiot.”

It is when the blacks are wearing gang colors. You aware right the police who stop such groups usually have them be under surveliance for quite a while and that usually there are several known gang members in these groups. Why shouldn’t the police monitor such groups when said groupings of that nature have a known history of criminal activity?

Why shouldn’t such groups be stopped and questioned as to what they are doing when their nature is suspicious? Funny how such police actions that you are proclaiming to be racist are well known to be very effective at breaking up gangs and stopping criminal activity.

Also loitering is a crime.

Wow.

tootiredoftheright = bitter old white man

How was the officer supposed to know it was a prop and not a real gun that the person was going to use to kill people in the party?

wow, so in your world all cops are incompetent. because sorry, any cop worth his salt should be able to do something beyond shooting. when did all cops become pussies who shoot and tase at issues that we expect them to be able to deal with? you see cops as incapable of doing anything but firing a gun. you don’t have a very high opinion of cops yourself, troll.

“bitter old white man “

Sorry I only look older then I actually am. As for being bitter most people who If I feel like telling them my life story openly admit they would have killed themselves after dealing what I have had to during my life. Also guess what the vast majority of people who have lived around me are black, I live in the Bible Belt in one of the most modern areas, guess what black mayors, black police cheifs, black teachers etc. There are drug dealings occuring in my neighborhood as does prostitution, it’s an open joke that if you just want a prostitute go to a certain Krispy Kreme, or that chop shops operate often for weeks. People have been shot to death a block or two up from my house. It’s not uncommon for several blocks to be sectioned off by the drug dealers who have vehicles stop in the middle of the street for the deal to take place as well as have scouts and runners on several blocks to report if the police cars are coming or passing by.

” because sorry, any cop worth his salt should be able to do something beyond shooting.”

Funny that a cop will tell you that legally shooting was the justified response due to the info the police officer would have. It’s either that or risk people being shot as well as the officer. Split second decisions require action wheter it be the correct or incorrect result the action would be the correct one.

It’s not the first time a police officer has shot someone through a window who was holding a gun. Guess what in those cases it was a real gun and the person who was killed was threating to kill or had killed people. The gun was being pointed at other people at close range,  talking to the person is not the correct response if you want to save lives because the person will just fire their gun

“when did all cops become pussies who shoot and tase at issues that we expect them to be able to deal with?”

Because they realized that doing stuff like the movies show will get them and numerous innocent people killed.

Ever seen the movie bit where the cop puts his gun down on the ground when talking to a suspect holding a hostage? Cops are told not to do that since there is nothing holding the suspect back from shooting the police officer and then the hostage. Nor do they talk to the suspect in such a face to face manner they are at far greater risk of getting the hostage and themselves killed by attempting to talk in such a manner.

“It is when the blacks are wearing gang colors.” Holy sh*t, I had no idea that it was illegal to wear certain colors in America! I could be arrested at any moment! Though it sounds like it’s legal if you’re white, so maybe I’m okay.
“You aware(sic) right the police who stop such groups usually have them be(sic) under surveliance(sic) for quite a while and that usually there are several known gang members in these groups.(sic)” I have another question: have you *completely* missed the point of this thread, or are you deliberately being obtuse in the hopes that we’ll forget what we were talking about long enough for you to sneak away with your tail between your legs?
“Also loitering is a crime.” Thanks. I think you just made my day.

““Also loitering is a crime.” Thanks. I think you just made my day.”

It is a crime in numerous cities and locations around the United States. It’s often refered to as trespassing violations.

“I had no idea that it was illegal to wear certain colors in America! “

http://www.lapdonline.org/get_informed/content_basic_view/23468 Do you want gangs to congregate in your area? Why do people oppose the breaking up of gangs when the gang members scream they are in a gang by what they wear? Personally I believe open season should be declared on gang members with the only cost being a minor fee to pay for disposing of the human garbage. After a few weeks of hunting you would find the gangs wiped out and the cities a whole lot safer.

“Everyone is a racist.”

that’s debatable, but not everyone revels in it like you do, tootired. you’re a proud racist shit.

“It is when the blacks are wearing gang colors.”

backpedal faster, reject. you said black. you repeatedly refer to ‘black people’ as if there’s one monolithoic group. that is the essence of racism. why are you still here, you piece of shit?

disposing of the human garbage.

Holy fuck.  Why is this being allowed to stay?

Look, if somebody busts into my shedroof townhouse and I don’t know who they are, I’m grabbing my sjambok and kukri, cops or not.

Shambok beats a gun at ranges less than ten feet. Both the sjambok and kukri are illegal to carry outside your home in Texas. Why can’t I get a sjambok permit?

I live in a high crime area. If cops came with a no-knock warrant I would assume home invasion. I would probably incapicitate two with the sjamboks before they shot me.

Good thing I’m white and the secret grand jury witness in an arson investigation.

so now cops shoot first, and never try to get a suspect to cooperate? fuck that, then, i guess we should all be terrified of cops if that’s the regs now.

i think tootired is trying to pull some rorshach shit. i hope it’s only his FANTASY to kill every black person in the US. he obviously has no shame in thinking every black person is to be suspected of a crime, and that all police shootings are justified. hey, what’s one old black man, he only counts as 3/5 of a person, right? tootired, darling, the only human garbage around here is you, and guess what, i don’t know or give a shit what your race is. stupid is as stupid does, i know all i need to know about you from your comments.

oh, and according to tootired, shooting an unarmed man is just as justified as shooting someone who’s seen with a gun. as long as he’s black, who cares, he’s got to be a criminal worthy of death.

“backpedal faster, reject. you said black. you repeatedly refer to ‘black people’ as if there’s one monolithoic group”

And what groups of black youth do you think the police are targetting when they said they have the right to stop such gatherings? Each and every time a police cheif says that they do not have to clarify which groups they mean when their own guidelines on such a procedure say why the officer has the right to break up the group. It’s called fucking sense that police officers will disperse groups of young people gathering when they are trespassing on private property or businesses. Guess who often loiters in inner cities? You never complaints when groups of white kids are dispersed for loitering and that happens far more then groups of young black men.

Why do people do a complaint fest when they hear a police chef saying the reason their high crime units were active in black communities was due to the area where the crimes are being commited? Would you rather the police abandon the black communites or go in where the high crime rate areas are and bust the criminals in the most effective manner? Personally I think the police should just declare that no police cars, no fire and rescue personall should enter a community that voices opposition to the police. Let the community police it’s own since it often claims it can do the job better then the police can. Let’s try that social expirement and see if it has any supporters after a five year period.

Anti-loitering is one the most effective tools. If the police don’t haul them away the drug dealing, turf marking, harassement of innocent people continues.

Sorry but the law states that loitering is a crime especially when the loitering is to foster criminal activities. Also most businesses have anti-loitering ordances as do many public housing, parks etc. They can have the police disperse groups of people that congregrate on the area. It’s legal. It’s withstood constitutionality requirements. Why do you take the side of criminals or those who enable criminals?

“shooting an unarmed man is just as justified as shooting someone who’s seen with a gun”

If the police officer has reason to believe that the person is reaching for a weapon they are legally allowed to defend themselves and the public. Sorry but even civilians will shot someone they deem suscipious who reaches for something behind their back or in their pockets when told to remain still so the police can come to sort the matter out. Also people who unarmed can still kill people or injure them and legally a police officer has the right to kill that person in order to save lives and prevent harm.

“Holy fuck.  Why is this being allowed to stay?”

Funny when asked most people would describe child molesters as human garbage same with rapists. Gang members are often found to have commited both crimes and many other crimes. Tell me if a criminal brags about their crimes and they cannot be found guilty due to lack of evidence even if they made what counts as a confession why should they not be considered garbage? They commit crimes because they know the vast majority of what they do will never be punished.

“And what groups of black youth do you think the police are targetting when they said they have the right to stop such gatherings?”

uh, all of them, according to you. your comment is there in black and…pink, you don’t actually get to come back later and say you only meant gang members when you did not say that or mean that. no takesies-backsies on words immortalized on the page.

“If the police officer has reason to believe that the person is reaching for a weapon they are legally allowed to defend themselves and the public.”

okay. what reason did they have to believe an old man in the house, that they couldn’t see well apparently, was reaching for a weapon? because…wait for it…he was black.

“lso people who unarmed can still kill people or injure them and legally a police officer has the right to kill that person in order to save lives and prevent harm.”

NO fuckwit. they do not have the right to kill an unarmed person who is walking out of a house. police are not above the law.

tooracist: Get out of here, get off this site, and get lost.  You are surplus to requirements.

Mitch: How, exactly, do you babble so much with your lips around the collective cock of these cops?

So what if old holmes had a gun? Shit’s goin down in a high crime area and you don’t know what’s up, you’re coming out fighting with all you got. Cops should know that and elect for a passive siege.

I slept many days on my couch 2nd time someone broke my grille slats to try to steal my engine shroud. I have a badass VW Golf GLS. Engine shroud will fit GLS and GTIs from 1998-2005. During my vigil I saw a guy torch his own car. If it had been my car I would have sjambok-ed him near death before he lit thefire.

“they do not have the right to kill an unarmed person who is walking out of a house.”

How do you know the witnesses are correct in what they saw or are in fact being honest?

Wouldn’t be the first time a family has lied about the crimes taken place in front of their eyes. Also a rookie cop notice the words rookie cop did the shooting. You weren’t there and I have to tell you this but if you were there you would have done the same thing as the rookie did.

“did they have to believe an old man in the house, that they couldn’t see well apparently, was reaching for a weapon?”

More likely because in such a situation that a family member is being arrested that somebody would be reaching for a gun. That kind of shit has happened before when police go to serve warrants. If it is a high crime area do you think the police aren’t going to be on edge?

“do you babble so much with your lips around the collective cock of these cops?
“

This is an ironic statement considering your name of Blue Fielder.

“Actually, it appears that the guy was pointing a gun at the officers.  Pam is mistaken in believing he was unarmed.”

‘appears’ according to whom? links or it didn’t happen.

“How do you know the witnesses are correct in what they saw or are in fact being honest? “

how do you know they’re not? oh, right, racist cracker knows all.

“Also a rookie cop notice the words rookie cop did the shooting. You weren’t there and I have to tell you this but if you were there you would have done the same thing as the rookie did.”

HAHAHAHAHAHHA BITCH SIT THE FUCK DOWN. you don’t know shit about any of this, LEAST of all me. you weren’t there either, you don’t know me from adam, and you really need to stop talking out your ass. you are literally making shit up. you may have made the same ‘mistake,’ but that’s got fuck all to do with me. seek therapy.

tootired, about cops being on edge, and rookies? maybe they shouldn’t be sending little boys to do a man’s job. just sayin’.

“maybe they shouldn’t be sending little boys to do a man’s job. just sayin’.
“

You are apparently unaware that the police are often understaffed and have to send out rookies due to a variety of conditions.

“you don’t know me from adam”

You obviously you would react differently because you apparently just watch a bunch of cop movies.

“oh, right, racist cracker knows all. “

Ah history and numerous studies show that eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable.

“links or it didn’t happen. “

Just search for the inital newsreports dating back to Feb. The initial testimony mentions the guy apperead to have been pointing a gun at the officers. It also mentions the rookie was the one who fired.

“Ah history and numerous studies show that eyewitness testimony is incredibly unreliable. “

but the testimony of some random guy on the internet who knows nothing more than the rest of us is more reliable? good one.

This indiscriminate shooting by a rogue cop is all kinds of fucked up, and the attempt by the “second police officer” to intentionally rearrange the evidence to justify the execution (because that’s what it was, undeniably) is just the rancid icing on this thoroughly corrupt cake.

I’m reminded of the Amadou Diallo shooting in NYC, in which four cops emptied their pistols into an unarmed man—a incredible total of 41 bullets fired.  The four cops in question were later tried and acquitted of all criminal charges.

Bearing that in mind, I don’t hold out much hope that there will be any real justice in the Louisiana shooting.  The cops involved might even get a promotion and a raise in pay.

-A