Many of them are on Medicare…like Medicare…don’t want to see Medicare go away, but are opposed to government healthcare coverage options.

Remember when those crazy liberals were floating “Medicare for All” as a single payer reform option for universal coverage?  Remember how we were told single payer was crazy and would garner too much opposition?  Politically infeasible, they said.  Clintoncare all over again.

*sigh*

I honestly like the idea of Public Option, but the GOP has been absolutely walking all over the debate on this, AGAIN!  It’s like the Return of the Iraq War Debate, but with a thousand times more crazy.  Bullshit lies, hyper-nationalist talking points, a media absolutely in the can for the conservative position…

I’d say this is the fault of those weak-kneed Democrats, but - with the exception of a few wankers like Conrad and Baucus - the party leadership has been doing a good job.  Obama has his bully pulpit out there slapping down the absurd.  Pelosi and Sebilius and McCaskill and even freak’n Specter have been standing up on the policy.  The town halls where the Congressmen get to sell their point of view have been generally successful.

But this is a fucking mountain they’re climbing, trying to negotiate a patchwork of half-fixes in hopes of staying bipartisan.  I can’t help but think a more radical plan would go over smoother if only because it would be easier to explain.  Not that we wouldn’t have the “death panel” nonsense of some sort, but we might not have five different massively complex bills for the GOP to cherry pick to death.

It always saddens me to realize that at least 25% of the citizens of my beloved Republic are idiots.  I always wonder if this has always been so or if its just the omnipresent media letting me see it clearly.

Well, you know what, we’re going to win.  The plan might not be perfect right out of the chute but it will be national health care and it will be this year.  Then they can take their black helicopters and tin foil hats and shove ‘em up their….

None of this craziness has anything to do with health care reform.  What we’re seeing is just pure seething racism.  There’s no way to win this “debate” because it’s driven by fear, not facts.

You know, during the Bush years I was half-jokingly telling some online friends that if things went south, I had an extra room in my apartment they could use to flee the country at any time…

I didn’t think I’d have to extend that offer after Obama got elected.

None of this craziness has anything to do with health care reform.  What we’re seeing is just pure seething racism.

The real eye-jarring stuff is about racism.  But there’s a trillion dollar industry in health insurance.  Racism is just the tool the corporate assholes use to prod the GOP base.  This is all about money.

The real eye-jarring stuff is about racism.  But there’s a trillion dollar industry in health insurance.  Racism is just the tool the corporate assholes use to prod the GOP base.  This is all about money.

“Democracy is the carrot. Fascism is the stick. Either way it’s the same people running the mule.”

Part of me is driven to wonder who the fuck would tear up a poster of Rosa Parks on camera.  Another part of me is driven to speculate that the thief and property-destroyer in question wouldn’t know a Rosa Parks from Adam on sight and just assumed that if she was black, female, and on a poster, he should have a rage-on about her.

I’m not too happy to be raising small children during interesting times.

Why are we still talking about “bipartisan” anything?  GOPers will NOT vote for the bill anyway, so make it a good one and reform HEALTH CARE.  Stop making it a giveaway to insurance companies.

Fuck it all.

Durbin hasn’t even acknowledged my email.  I"m pissed.  He’s my senator, and he’d just better send me a form letter at the very least, or I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I’ll end him.

I’ve been saying for a while that the wingnuts and their leader are anti-american conspirators seeking to overthrow the government by force, but I always kinda meant it as a definitional argument.

Exactly, BadKitty.  I am really distressed and feeling hopeless right now.  Jon Stewart showed a clip of Glenn Beck telling his viewers that Obama’s “health care reform plan” (i.e. insurance reform) = reparations.
People are screaming about “illegals” at these town-halls.  Did you see the clip of the woman at one of the town-halls, crying and demanding “her country” back?  Someone needs to call this out for what it is and stop pretending like the two sides in this “debate” are anywhere near equal.

“There’s no way to win this “debate” because it’s driven by fear, not facts.”

True, which makes it exactly the same as all of the other things Republicans have wanted or wanted stopped over the last 40-60 years. 

All fear, all the time.  “They” (Russians, terrorists, Negroes, immigrants, Liberals, etc.) are coming to kill you and your family in your bed, and if you don’t die, you’ll be forced to become one of “Them”, which would be a Fate Worse Than Death!

“They” don’t fight fairly, so all rules of civilized behavior are rescinded to give us Real Americans a chance to Stop This Existential Threat…

“People are screaming about “illegals” at these town-halls.  Did you see the clip of the woman at one of the town-halls, crying and demanding “her country” back?”

Which one?  There seem to be one of these ladies—possibly the same ones, given the bussing going on—at every mob-scene.

This one.

I can’t get the video URL but it’s at the top of that post.

I can understand why this scares you Pam, but it mostly amuses me.  These things are so far out against what mainstream and even most right-wing people believe in, so very anti-american, it puts their whole “movement” (as in bowel movement) into question.  They make even the people who peacefully spout ignorant talking points out of fear look bad.

I mean, I mind find it amusing if the misinformation and propaganda wasn’t convincing people to turn against Obama’s proposal.

“I can understand why this scares you Pam, but it mostly amuses me.”

I’d be less apprehensive if the television-based media was actually reporting on this shit with any measure of accuracy.  A dude flipping out so bad about a picture of Rosa Parks that he commits a misdemeanor in front of a billion recording devices and a passel of security personnel is going to set off the Bull Connor alarms.  A brief, unspecified fracas between supporters of different political ideologies, not so much.

What preying mantis said—we have a media so interested in pursuing “the story” that they’re not able to call this shit for what it is. They’re feeding the revolutionary fantasies of these jagoffs (I mean, where was the media support for the outrage over the stolen election of 2000? Oh, right, they sided with those angry shouting jagoffs then, too). And because of this, shit is escalating and people are starting to bring guns to the townhall meetings because it fits into their revolutionary eliminationist fantasies.

It doesn’t matter if “most people” feel that these people are isolated cranks if someone gets shot and killed at a townhall meeting.

Me, personally, if it were me who were shot and killed at one of these meetings—it would suck—but the logic of “at least then people would realize what a bunch of dangerous criminals these people are” doesn’t even apply, because the media would spin it as “look at these passionate revolutionaries. They’re just so angry and we really need to pay attention to what they’re saying and we ignore them at our own peril!”

Hm. Sort of like how bitches deserve to be shot in their fitness clubs for not fucking every man who comes onto them, now that I think on it.

The giveaway to me is on the rare occasions when anyone is asked to point to the part of the bill that establishes “death panels” and forced euthanasia and such. The answer is always “Well, it’s not actually in there ... but you KNOW those people; they’ll do it!”

That’s what takes this from a discussion of policy - even a loud, ignorant discussion of policy - into a pure temper tanrum, possibly a seditious one. It’s not “The Democrats are going to kill your baby and your grandma because it says so in this bill”; it’s “The Democrats are going to kill your baby and your grandma because that’s just who they are and what they like to do.”

And why suich people get on national TV for any reason other than so the host can point this out explicitly is beyond me.

the thief and property-destroyer in question wouldn’t know a Rosa Parks from Adam on sight and just assumed that if she was black, female, and on a poster, he should have a rage-on about her.

Yeah, I was somewhat impressed that he’d even recognize her.  I’m not entirely sure I could.  If he did know who she was, it was probably out of some pathology, like he’s memorized all the “enemies” of racist bastards such as himself.

Fear not, because that’s exactly what these lunatics want you to do. They want everyone to be as angry, delusional and as afraid as they are to set off the “race war” they have been talking about since “Birth of a Nation”.

Also, notice the age of most of these people—in twenty years (or less) they will all be dead. Notice that their sons and daughters (the folks in the 18 - 64 age range) aren’t showing up in large numbers at these events. Why? Probably because they don’t have health insurance and don’t want to be seen publicly disagreeing with their parents. Their kids may be just as racist as they are and angry because they believe the lie that a public option will cover illegal immigrants, but the bottom line is they want to live. And since they don’t have Medicare like their raving mad parents, they’ve been somewhat quiet on this issue.

Chris Matthews yesterday interviewed the racist libertarian who brought a gun to one of these meetings. Chris Matthews is now as irresponsible as Glenn Beck, and should apologize to America.

The real eye-jarring stuff is about racism.  But there’s a trillion dollar industry in health insurance.  Racism is just the tool the corporate assholes use to prod the GOP base.  This is all about money.

Exactly. These Know-Nothing protests aren’t grassroots, they’re astroturf. It’s important to demonstrate that these protests are backed by the same sort of wingnut welfare outfits (like Freedomworks) that brought us the Teabaggers, and are reported on with all the objectivity of a Rick Santelli or a Megan McArdle..

People are screaming about “illegals” at these town-halls.  Did you see the clip of the woman at one of the town-halls, crying and demanding “her country” back?

I actually find this part sort of heartening, because the GOP neoCon/moneyCon establishment, with its addiction to cheap labour, really doesn’t want the Know-Nothings getting too riled up about the “immigration” issue.

Pam I really believe this is what Obama wants.  I think he is taking a calculated risk in bringing out the real bat shit crazy on the right.  All of us knew this wouldn’t go smoothly, but Obama has made sure that a) not single Black or Latino ever thinks of getting under the tent with these people again b) Left Democrats can know the right is actually populated by these people and not just a fiction and finally c) that center right/left people who voted for Obama who may have growing doubts look at these people and say “those people are FUBAR, I aligned myself with that in 2004?” 

You know the GOP establishment is worried when Ann Coulter has to take to the TV to call Birthers crazy.

Ken

“Part of me is driven to wonder who the fuck would tear up a poster of Rosa Parks on camera.  “

That sounded like a clear majority of that crowd applauding him for doing so too.

Sure these racist oldsters like MEDICARE FOR THEM, just not healthcare for YOU, or illegal aliens (who aren’t covered in the bill), or the abortion hungry bitches (also not covered in the bill), or any of the lazy, scary brown people.

Even if this bill covered commonsense Medicare for All, astroturfers would be ginning the crazees up about something else not in the bill—as a for instance, the opportunity to create a living will as death panels on granny.

And no, I don’t think Obama (or any other Dem) is playing 12th dimensional chess calling out the crazees to look crazee for some political purpose—if so, they’re idiots. Not only have the polls plummeted and the mainstream media sucked it up like soda, but we’re on the thin edge of someone being killed by a fringer driven mad by this nonsense.

A Dem reverend has already had his sshoulder dislocated by the wingnuts at a town hall…not satisfied with that?  There’s more on the way, we’re only halfway through August.

“Also, notice the age of most of these people—in twenty years (or less) they will all be dead.”

Yeah, that’s the only thing I take heart from.

I agree with Judybrowni, this was not strategy on Obama or any other Dem’s part.  This was a badly fucked up roll out of health care.

I can’t believe Obamabots are STILL dragging out the old 11-dimensional-chess excuse. His handling of the health care issue, and especially of the message war, has been pretty much a total clusterfuck. He’s a very smart man- he has to know damn well that he fucked up, and he’s trying to figure out how to unfuck it. Good luck with that.

“And no, I don’t think Obama (or any other Dem) is playing 12th dimensional chess calling out the crazees to look crazee for some political purpose—if so, they’re idiots. Not only have the polls plummeted and the mainstream media sucked it up like soda, but we’re on the thin edge of someone being killed by a fringer driven mad by this nonsense. “

“I can’t believe Obamabots are STILL dragging out the old 11-dimensional-chess excuse. His handling of the health care issue, and especially of the message war, has been pretty much a total clusterfuck”

Judy and Steve.  Did you honestly believe we would get universal health care in four months?  For you to say that Obama didn’t handle this well is to assume that the mega billion dollar transnational corporations were just going to roll over as of Jan 20, 2009?  How naive are you?  It’s not happening.  This has nothing to do with health care. 

And calling anyone an Obamabot is just idiocy.  Exactly who on the left is pleased with Obama at this point?

Did you honestly believe we would get universal health care in four months?

Did you honestly believe you could change the subject and nobody would notice?

There’s nothing to discuss.  People on the right are cracker jack psycho nazi jesus freaks.  Do you have something to add? Let’s move on.

Also, notice the age of most of these people—in twenty years (or less) they will all be dead.

Shhh! Remember, we’re trying to convince them that we won’t euthanize them!!!

The giveaway to me is on the rare occasions when anyone is asked to point to the part of the bill that establishes “death panels” and forced euthanasia and such. The answer is always “Well, it’s not actually in there ... but you KNOW those people; they’ll do it!”

Oh, like those idiots even care. People with disabilities are just another political prop for them. 

There’s a private member’s bill in parliament right now (Canada) that would permit ‘death with dignity’ – essentially physician-assisted suicide – for gravely ill people who request it. I haven’t had a chance to review the content of the bill yet, but some disability-rights advocates are up in arms because “dignity” and “suffering” are not well-defined within the language of the bill. (Some of their claims – and these are legitimate concerns – are outlined here: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Death+with+dignity+take+away+choice/1876485/story.html)

Hubby and I were talking about whether to write our Members of Parliament once we’ve reviewed the bill, but neither of us could bring ourselves to be too angry about it. We’ve both had our share of real, measurable suffering as the result of disability. If that suffering were guaranteed to grow worse and worse through the progression of a terminal illness, we both agreed good palliative care would include comfort measures (such as additional morphine etc.) that may otherwise shorten our lives.

Of course, that’s not the same as setting a specific date on which someone is determined to die. We don’t believe in that sort of thing for ourselves, though we recognize some people would be most comfortable with that option – it would allow them to gather their families and to control how they meet their own ends.

This bill, and the debate around it, isn’t the result of our having universal healthcare, though: “Death With Dignity” acts have been on the table in certain US states as well.

These legislations have been abused in countries where they pass, but that’s what it is – abuse. It’s the same sort of abuse that occurs regardless of whether PAS is permitted by law.  And, ironically, this sort of abuse could be controlled quite well through the establishment of properly balanced ethics panels that review each case.

That, in my opinion, is a far more humane way of handling this sort of thing than are the for-profit “death panels” – and, with all respect to the people in those jobs, that’s precisely what they are – that withhold insurance coverage based solely on how an expensive medication or surgery would impact the company’s bottom line.

I can’t believe Obamabots are STILL dragging out the old 11-dimensional-chess excuse. His handling of the health care issue, and especially of the message war, has been pretty much a total clusterfuck. He’s a very smart man- he has to know damn well that he fucked up, and he’s trying to figure out how to unfuck it. Good luck with that.

Steve, while I agree with the substance of what you’re saying, I wish you wouldn’t use that word. It does nothing to build solidarity on the left. And it is especially offensive to people who volunteered on the campaign, with the hope of improving their communities, who still have a personal connection and a vested interest in the outcome of that volunteer work.

Criticize the guy. Don’t criticize those who have little more than optimism left.

Dailykos has a list of talking points responses.  Some of these folks are just insane racists, but many of them are just regular kind racists who are dragged along for the ride by their insane racist culture.  You can break through, or at least get some kind of connection.

Separately, Obama’s numbers have gone up since this business started.

asdf @33: fair enough, that was an error on my part which I will take care not to repeat.

Thank you asdf: that tells you everything you need to know about “Steve Labonne.”  Talk about changing the topic. If I’m wrong so be it, but don’t call me an Obamabot.  It’s childish and it takes away from the important matters at hand.  We are about to lose the healthcare debate and all “Steve Labonne” can do is hurl insults.

On the contrary, I know a great deal about Steve Labonne from many threads here, and I probably wouldn’t have asked nicely if I didn’t already respect him.

Jesus tapdancin’ Christ, Caren, you’ll “end him?”  Leave the death threats to the wingnuts, they don’t belong here, and I certainly expect better from somebody who’s been around here long enough to know better.

Great, now we have cable networks specifically requesting that teabaggers demonstrate with “lots of energy and lots of anger.”

But it’s all Obama’s fault for not anticipating every move the MSM and corporations would make!!1!!11!11ii

libdevil—I’m pretty sure nobody was talking about killing anybody over not getting a form letter.  It was a statement of anger and a desire to see his political career come to a close.

Hah! Muddy the waters; confuse divide & rule.  Especially since they lost the election.  “They” aren’t the voters, or just the GOP, but also the Korpocracy that tried so hard to usurp democracy (& did the last 2 goes).  The Masters of the previous Administration’s Kovert Korporate Koup are terrified of losing ground to the people, those underlings to whom democracy is technically supposed to belong.  Could Obama take back some, any, of their hard bought gains?  Could he force a fairer, more just society on them, or reduce Korporate welfare?  But they should be the legitimate overlords, they are the Wealth Supremacists!  They can still dupe the masses thru their magnificent blazing FoxNews in living rooms across the land, they can still disguise themselves as lobbyists (instead of in white sheets) in the seats of power, they can claim not to be racists, because the untermensch are all races if one is a wealth supremacist.  Middle class America?  Blue collar America?  Pah!  Take the crumbs & get thee gone!

These things are so far out against what mainstream and even most right-wing people believe in

You’re absolutely right about this.  About 75% of Americans want health care reform, and the wingnuts actually use specific tricks to make it seem like they have more support than they really do.  However, I’m still scared rather than amused.  Let’s not be too quick to forget the murder of Dr. Tiller.  While these people likely won’t be successful in getting their way politically, they are most certainly a threat in other ways.

@libdevil - it’s a quote from firefly; I don’t think it was meant to be taken literally.

Criticizing him for that seems to be beside the point.

Well, that’s a matter of judgment. My judgment FWIW is that, due to poor strategy and and inexcusable lack of preparedness for the utterly predictable propaganda barrage from the right (both general failures by the party as a whole and not just Obama’s fault, though he deserves a healthy share of the blame), things really are not going at all well and prospects for a bill that isn’t fatally watered down are fading fast. Time will tell, and it should go without saying that I hope I’m wrong.

The point in saying this is not to point fingers, but rather that doing better in the future- on this issue if worst comes to worst, and certainly on other issues- required a frank assessment of what went wrong. In my opinion Obama and the Dem Congressional leadership simply did not start out with a realistic view of the political landscape and in particular of the (nonexistent) possibility of any kind of cooperation with the Republicans, leading to the same old Democratic error of negotiating, and pre-emptively compromising, with themselves. They should have known they were in for a hell of a fight yet that seems to have taken them by surprise.

The general strategy of the news corporations is 99% predictable. We know their goals, we know their styles, we know who owns them and we know their <strike>journalists</strike> <strike>reporters</strike> talking heads are lazy.

The smarter things Obama has done have been to buy prime time slots and speak directly to the public, and to push for a bill before the August recess. The dumber things have been to let the Republicans participate, to shut off all discussion of single-payer, and to insinuate that he might sign a bill without a public option.

Everything he allows as a possible compromise becomes an absolute demand, and an insistence for further compromises. That much should have been obvious.

asdf just said what I was trying to, only much better.

Democrats control everything but the court.  This should be easy, but it will be arduous because both parties are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Health Care - Industrial Complex. 

As for the protests, they are simply payback for the protests against W.

Everytime I watch the news I want to cry. The manipulation that that is going on is appalling. And I’m getting really tired of the extreme right going right to violence anytime they don’t like what they think is going on. Whether it be abortion, gun control, health insurance, there’s bound to be someone on the extreme right threaning someone. And usually the one pulling trigger is so off base about what is actally going on it would be laughable if people weren’t being killed. Tiller wasn’t running around killing babies willy-nilly, Obama isn’t taking away your guns, & the government isn’t going to kill your grandma. Is it going to take a presidential assassination to get people to realize how wrong it is to encourage this behavior? The right should read a history book, cause if my memory serves me right, John Wilkes Booth didn’t solve all South’s problems.

The dumber things have been to let the Republicans participate, to shut off all discussion of single-payer, and to insinuate that he might sign a bill without a public option.

One thing to keep in mind (and I say this as someone who supported and voted for Obama, and think he’s better than Idiot America deserves): I don’t think he and many of the Congressional Dems ever wanted single-payer, and weren’t particularly motivated to put in a public option, either.

We have to stop operating on the assumption that Obama is anything other than what he is: an American centrist politician who’s spent a good part of his intellectual and ideological life deeply engaged with Chicago School economics. He’s not as bad as McCain, or Hillary Clinton, or most DLC Dems in his devotion to neoliberal economics, but a neoliberal he is. And that economic position precludes a public “competitor” to the private insurance companies (unless the public option is intentionally hobbled from the start), let alone a single-payer system.

Does this mean we let Obama slide? Of course not. But shock and dismay because he didn’t deliver on progressive expectations aren’t good starting points. We’re not naive about the motivations of the MSM (spectacle!), the GOP (power!), or the astroturf rackets (money!) and their marks (hate!), so let’s not be naive about Obama’s motivations, either—they may be less toxic and more productive, but they’re still not going to come close to delivering the kind of single-payer system we’d like to see.

I dunno about “succeeding in stopping any meaningful reform.”  Screaming and yelling turn into white noise (ahem).  I don’t think it’s moving any votes, because it all turns into “blah blah blah socialism blah death panel blah blah Wolverines!”  Politician hosts event, politician gets yelled at about nonsense, politician ignores it, curses what a waste of time it was.  I think the rage has gotten too loud to be heard.

As for the protests, they are simply payback for the protests against W.

You mean against the war?

I’m curious about one thing: if Obama is Hitler and is about to start up a new Holocaust, what does this say about the majority of the American people? Are we just “Good Germans” willing to go along with it, or are we being duped, or what? It’s saying quite a lot if you believe that the President is willing to kill millions of people, but not only that, all of Congress and a majority of the American people are just willing to go along with it as well. What’s the narrative here?

I don’t think he and many of the Congressional Dems ever wanted single-payer, and weren’t particularly motivated to put in a public option, either.

He wanted single-payer in 2003, and indeed was so forthright about it that he had to lie about it at his most recent town meeting to cover his tracks.

I’m curious about one thing: if Obama is Hitler and is about to start up a new Holocaust, what does this say about the majority of the American people? Are we just “Good Germans” willing to go along with it, or are we being duped, or what?

I think it’s a little of both.  They think that liberals and progressive know about and fully support it.  They already thought we were evil before this.  They also think that the majority of moderate or centrist people really are being duped, and they think if they can just get the message out that Obama is a secret Muslim Kenyan or that he wants to kill your Granny and use her blood for a voodoo ritual, that everyone will suddenly side with them.  The problem with their plan is that those things aren’t actually factual.

I believe I wrote earlier that if these nutballs weren’t fired up about healthcare “death panels” there would be some other lie, and lo and behold:

“They aren’t going to stop with the birthing and the soylent green. The crazy knows no bounds. As we speak, they’re already working themselves up into their next frenzy:

Savage says “internment camps being planned.”

http://www.digbysblog.blogspot.com/

He wanted single-payer in 2003, and indeed was so forthright about it that he had to lie about it at his most recent town meeting to cover his tracks.

He was speaking to a labour union—he wasn’t going to get into a nuanced discussion of his reservations vis-a-vis how it would impact private insurance companies with that audience. He also strenuously avoided specifying a public option. The fact that he had to lie about even that statement indicates the level of deterioration in public discourse.

What he’s calling for now (without the “scary” liberal terminology) is really a health insurance mandate for all citizens that preserves a role for the for-profit insurance companies, probably with government-imposed standards for billing and governance (but no public option except perhaps for a deliberately sub-standard and ghettoised one).

It’s “universal” only insofar as it demands that, with certain hardship exceptions, every American system get on a plan. And it’s “single-payer” only insofar as all the participating insurers adhere to certain government regulations (which has worked so well with the banking industry, to name but one). Read over that speech again, and he has plenty of wiggle room.

These “internment camps” were the same ones being staffed under Bush. Back when their man could do no wrong.

Chris Matthews yesterday interviewed the racist libertarian who brought a gun to one of these meetings. Chris Matthews is now as irresponsible as Glenn Beck, and should apologize to America.

Tweety is a douchebag for giving that asshole airtime, but to be fair, Matthews wasn’t treating the man as a rational opponent in the debate, he was talking to him like he was a completely unhinged lunatic (which he clearly is).  Had the dude been a guest of Beck’s, Glenn would hav been talking to him like he was a great American patriot.  You could tell Matthews thought this guy was out of his mind.

These “internment camps” were the same ones being staffed under Bush. Back when their man could do no wrong.

I hear Obama has an internment camp out in Cuba, where he pays a communist country to hold them in detention indefinitely.

I don’t think he and many of the Congressional Dems ever wanted single-payer, and weren’t particularly motivated to put in a public option, either.

He wanted single-payer in 2003, and indeed was so forthright about it that he had to lie about it at his most recent town meeting to cover his tracks.

It is true that Illinois State Senator Barack Obama (who wasn’t known by 99.99% of the U.S. population) was a big propoenent of single-payer healthcare in 2003.

But, like every other Democrat before him who rose from relative obscurity to national prominence, he arrived on the Hill in January 2005 to join the 100 most elite citizens in America who aren’t the president, and his once fairly progressive views were rapidly moderated.  And it’s far worse with U.S. Senators, who have a lot more spotlight, than U.S. Representatives, who can still enjoy some degree of national anonymity.

Hell, look at Bernie Sanders the Congressman versus Bernie Sanders the Senator.  He’s still a pretty strong champion of left-leaning causes, but Dennis Kucinich he is not.

I think simply being sworn in as a U.S. Senator tends to pull people sharply to the right in their political views, at least in terms of what they try to promote.

One thing to keep in mind (and I say this as someone who supported and voted for Obama, and think he’s better than Idiot America deserves): I don’t think he and many of the Congressional Dems ever wanted single-payer, and weren’t particularly motivated to put in a public option, either.

Even if this is correct, it’s just stupid to take your bargaining chips off the table. You have to demand more than you’re willing to settle for.

What he’s calling for now (without the “scary” liberal terminology) is really a health insurance mandate for all citizens that preserves a role for the for-profit insurance companies, probably with government-imposed standards for billing and governance (but no public option except perhaps for a deliberately sub-standard and ghettoised one).

Well, that’s worse than the current system. Maybe I should go to a town hall and scream.

Even if this is correct, it’s just stupid to take your bargaining chips off the table. You have to demand more than you’re willing to settle for.

That part I’ll agree with. It’s negotiation 101, and as with so many Dems before him he’s failed that course, even when he walks in with an advantage. If I’m disappointed in Obama, it’s not because he’s not promoting something he’s not comfortable with, and it’s not because he’s not playing 12-dimensional chess—it’s because he’s not playing hardball with his enemies.

Well, that’s worse than the current system. Maybe I should go to a town hall and scream.

You’re a liberal like me—you don’t scream about it like an idiot in a town hall or in the streets, you politely write your representative and talk about it in places like this. And outside of “The Daily Show” and Bill Maher, we remain invisible to the MSM.

Since I’m all about greater efficiency and standards, I wouldn’t say that it’s worse than the current system, but it ain’t much better either.

Also, you’re not screaming because you don’t have a political sugar daddy like the Koch family who’s willing to supply you with talking points, Web sites, professionally designed signage, and media access.

We know that Obama reads The New Yorker, and at one point they printed a piece discussing how different countries achieved universal health care coverage.  The moral of the piece was that each country had to start with what they already had, and I believe that’s what Obama is doing.  A public option could lead to single payer down the road, if it’s competitive.

A public option could lead to single payer down the road, if it’s competitive.

Alternatively, if it fucks up and gets rorted by the insurance companies, if they figure out ways to abuse the system, and when it suffers the inevitable mistakes and failings of any complicated system, the wingnuts and their enablers will be screaming that health care reform doesn’t work, and the next time your country elects a Bush-type, it gets gutted.

Or worse - “updated to be more business friendly”.

Unrealistically, I’d really love to see Obama say “fuck it”, withdraw the bill, and present essentially France or Germany’s system, as closely modeled as possible.  Then let the bastards scream.

Alternatively, if it fucks up and gets rorted by the insurance companies, if they figure out ways to abuse the system, and when it suffers the inevitable mistakes and failings of any complicated system, the wingnuts and their enablers will be screaming that health care reform doesn’t work, and the next time your country elects a Bush-type, it gets gutted.

On the off-chance that they allow a public option, it’s going to be set up for failure from the start. A truly competitive public option would have even the mildest neoliberals complaining about “unfair government competition with the private sector.”

Of course, that “unfair” situation would only occur if the public option were so attractive that enough consumers chose it (y’know, in the marketplace) that certain economies of scale were achieved. And such a plan would only be attractive if it eliminated the hassle that comes with dealing with a for-profit alternative while offering the same basic benefits.

So any non-profit public option is going to have built-in “fairness” provisions to make sure those helpless private insurance corporations don’t lose a dime in profits.

Unrealistically, I’d really love to see Obama say “fuck it”, withdraw the bill, and present essentially France or Germany’s system, as closely modeled as possible.  Then let the bastards scream.

Always a compelling fantasy that we harbour about our liberal American Presidents (YouTube Link). But yeah, once an American President starts a negotiation from a position of unnecessary weakness and even a slight ideological sympathy with the enemy, we wake up to reality.

It’s saying quite a lot if you believe that the President is willing to kill millions of people, but not only that, all of Congress and a majority of the American people are just willing to go along with it as well. What’s the narrative here?

Well, we already did it once, when we decided to invade a sovereign national and overthrow their government because Saddam looked at us funny.  I’m not surprised that the people who vocally supported the Iraq war are convinced the government would do it again.  Ninety percent of their lives is spent worrying about the backlash against their actions, which is why they have all of their fantasies about reparations and roving gangs of killer lesbians.  After all, they wouldn’t hesitate to murder their enemies, so why would their enemies hesitate?

In other words:  projection.  It’s always projection with conservatives.  Always.

Truly an [adjective here] time. I though of using interesting, but it just doesn’t capture what is going on. I went to my town hall meeting with Rep Rick Larsen (D, 2nd WA state) yesterday. It was civilized, polite, and multiple opinions were expressed. No one shouted another speaker down. Many of the questions asked were what you see in MSM and hear on talk shows. Larsen did a great job of explaining and listening. What appeared clear to me (my opinion of course) was that no one was familiar with the actual content of HR3200 and HR676, two of the 5 or so competing bills for consideration. The two bills, which I have read twice, are light years apart in their approach. They also, in my opinion, don’t sound much like anything the President talks about in his press conferences or town hall meetings. The problem is that only the final bill out of conference which House and Senate will vote on will actually give us a glimpse of reality. Until that point, the bills are proposals from many different committees. And yet, the media and web sites proclaim “truth” about these bills as if it were objective fact. We then argue about these facts. I am left with a profound case of brain freeze as how to proceed. I don’t have much hope that the bill, and one will be passed, will really improve our system.

Wow, DTG, you’re calling for people to harass a man in his own home by giving out his private phone number? Really?

@ DTG: This is a matter for the courts, and not for random assholes who wish to visit their own extra-legal version of “justice” on some old dumbass. It doesn’t matter if his contact information is public; if you call that guy at home merely to harass him, you’re crossing a Malkinesque line.

Fair enough.

Pam, can you scrub my comments regarding Mr. Winfrey’s publicly listed information?

Durbin hasn’t even acknowledged my email.  I"m pissed.  He’s my senator, and he’d just better send me a form letter at the very least, or I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I’ll end him.

Caren, he hasn’t written me either, and his office is usually really good about sending out at least the form letters you mention. I’m going to assume he was inundated with letters like the ones you and I sent, Illinois being so very blue and unionized and all. I’m waiting for my form letter, but even more so I’m waiting for him to issue a public statement clarifying his support for the public option.

I’m in the same place; I’ve had previous highly positive experiences with Durbin back when I lived in Illinois.