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Mandatory retirment for Senators is beginning to look a lot better

Democrats

Between this Harry Reid scandal and months of watching fools like Ben Nelson carry on like shaming “girls in trouble” like it’s 1955 is an acceptable thing to do, I’ve reluctantly come to the conclusion that one reason the leadership of the Democratic party is way more conservative than the actual citizens who vote them in is simply that the old white man-ness of the Democratic leadership is becoming a serious problem.  Not that all old white men are completely out of touch and living in a bubble of privilege that prevents them from realizing or accepting that the world has changed dramatically since their youth—-you see men like Ted Kennedy, and you realize open-mindedness is possible.  But still, it’s clearly not going to happen in many, probably most cases.  We need more fresh blood cycling into the Senate, to inject more of a relationship to the outside world into their thinking and decision-making.  But how to do this?

I’m hesitant to suggest term limits.  I think they’re a bad idea for a lot of reasons, starting with the fact that the existence of senior politicians is often a good thing—-experience and stature helps them get things done. While we were talking about this last night, Marc also pointed out to me that term limits encourage corruption by encouraging the Dick Cheney-style revolving door between holding office and working for corporations. 

So I’m reluctantly forced to conclude that the Senate needs to seriously consider setting a mandatory retirement age, probably around 65.  I think this would go a long way towards fixing some of the problems that we have the with Senate, particularly their resistance to change and the ongoing problem of Democratic incumbents who act like they’re living in the 1950s, even as their voting base wants them to move us into the 21st century.  I say that I’m reluctant, because there are a lot of older politicians like Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd who have demonstrated a flexibility and a willingness to look forward, and I’d like to selfishly keep folks like that around.  I don’t think age inherently makes people more conservative in any way.  What I do think is that being in the Senate, however, encourages people to get stuck in their ways, and when their ways are decades past, this can be a serious problem, as Harry Reid’s racist remarks and Ben Nelson’s over the top sexism demonstrate.  And if we lose good people like Kennedy and Byrd with a mandatory retirement age, I think it’ll be worth it to edge out people like Reid and Nelson. 

But even examples like Byrd and Kennedy show why encouraging a culture where politicians hang onto their seats until they die is a problem.  Kennedy’s tragic death at age 77 left a hole in the Senate that could have very well led to the tanking of health care reform.  I’d argue that his loss is probably a big reason the Senate passed such a weak bill, because he wasn’t there to fight for the left.  Robert Byrd’s ill health continues to be a threat to the bill, one that Republicans are willing to exploit in both praying for his passing and in using procedural nonsense in an effort to make him too sick (or worse, dead) to vote.  It’s true that any of us can be stricken with ill health or death at any time, but the possibility of this goes up exponentially after you’re 65 years old. 

What if, instead of encouraging politicians to hang onto their seats as long as humanly possible, we created an incentive for politicians to groom and root for their successors?  One reason we’re all so scared to see someone like Ted Kennedy or Robert Byrd leave office is we’re afraid of who will take their place, but I think if these politicians were looking forward to retirement instead of waiting for death, that might not be so.  They would have much more of a reason to groom someone suitable for their seat, and help get them elected while they still had the energy to do so.  We could both get better turnover in the Senate while also making sure the voters aren’t left without reliable candidates to vote for under a mandatory retirement system. 

I know that the argument for why conservative Democrats get elected is that they’re from conservative districts.  And I don’t disagree with that.  But the recent months have shown that mere conservatism doesn’t really account for how wildly out of touch Senators like Ben Nelson (age 68) and Harry Reid (age 70) are.  I really do think it’s because they’ve lived in that bubble way too long, and the possibility that they’re going to wake up is slim indeed.  Which is why most people aren’t happy with Reid’s apology.  To quote Matt on this subject:

It’s good that Reid apologized, but at the same time you can’t really apologize for being the sort of person who’d be inclined to use the phrase “negro dialect” and it’s more the idea of Reid being that kind of person that’s creepy here than anything else.

That kind of thing is and probably should be a giant red flag that someone is terminally out of touch.  And I say this as someone who’s come around to respecting Reid a lot more than I used to, because he put up more of a fight than I expected for health care reform.  It’s clear that he has to go, and unfortunately now the only way that’s going to happen is by a Republican beating him in the election.  While his seat is one that would probably be in danger if he simply retired years ago, I’m also forced to point out that his hanging on for dear life has effectively blocked any chance of another Democrat—-one who doesn’t say things like “negro dialect”—-taking the seat. 

Which brings me to my second argument, which is that mandatory retirement would help diversify the leadership in the Democratic party.  When you’re looking at the people over a certain age in the Senate, the vast majority are going to be white guys, because that’s the only group that had a good shot at getting elected when they were starting out in politics.  Cycling more young people in more frequently would help cycle in more women and people of color.  Certainly, the male dominance of the Senate had a huge influence on the abortion debate, especially when you consider how many Senators felt free to discuss women in terms that implied that women are functionally no smarter than beets, and have no more moral character on average than rocks.  The mere presence of more women in the Senate would do a lot to change that, but women are going to have trouble getting more seats if there’s some seats that aren’t going to come up until the seat holders die.  I’d argue that the same dynamics are in play when it comes to racist assumptions that Senators like Reid clearly feel free to hold, because they don’t get challenged much.  The lack of fresh blood cycling into the Senate just makes it harder for people of color to get into the Senate. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:49 AM • (105) Comments

At the very least, Senate Democrats need to get rid of the seniority system for assigning committee chairmanships.  The Senate Republicans are much less respectful of seniority, and it’s one of the big reasons why they’ve maintained more party discipline.  They’re more willing to punish old Senators who stray from the party line. 

Part of the result is that Democrats are stuck with old committee chairs who think we’re in 1962 when some Republicans were interested in working constructively on bipartisan legislation.  The junior Democratic Senators—people like Jeff Merkley and Sherrod Brown—have a much better feel for how politics actually works these days.  (Merkley actually got a pretty ridiculous amount of stuff passed in Oregon with a 31-29 Democratic majority when he was speaker of the State House there.  Can we swap him in for Reid?  please?)

Right now, Tim Johnson from the credit card HQ state of South Dakota is going to ascend to the Banking chairmanship unless Senate Dems put their foot down.  It doesn’t look good.

Comment #1: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  01:15 PM

Old people can indeed be very out of touch. They are also, generally, the wisest among us. By no means is every old person wise, nor is every wise person old, but there’s definitely some correlation.

The Senate has a lot of problems as a governing body, but I don’t know that (totally illegal, btw) age discrimination and structural nepotism are the answer.

Comment #2: Alkaloid  on  01/10  at  01:16 PM

I don’t necessarily disagree, but as with term limits I think that’s still thinking about the wrong end of the problem.

I think progressives ought to thinking about fighting hard for public campaign financing as a solution to these kinds of problems.

Maine, for example, has one of the youngest and most progressive legislatures in the country, despite being an aging, not especially liberal state. I think that’s owed largely to public financing.

It’s a lot easier for young people (and minorities, and women…) to consider running when you don’t have to “know people”, or spend a lifetime sucking up to people or building a personal fortune before you can run for office. All you have to do is get a few signatures and put up a modest amount of seed money. It brings fresh blood and perspectives into the system, all without depriving voters of choices if they want to keep the next Ted Kennedy around for 75 years.

Comment #3: jack lecou  on  01/10  at  01:17 PM

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but your commentary falls into the same category as a lot of the stuff you read on Daily Kos or whatever: it’s logical, and would probably help, but has absolutely zero chance of actually happening.

Yes, you’re correct: even Dem senior politicians are whiter and maler than the average because they’re the only ones who had a chance in politics back then. There’s probably going to be such a lag for most of a generation, and there’s little we can do about it because politicians need to start small and develop. And yes, you’re correct: if we could cycle them out, we’d get more representative and younger blood.

But this is not possible without amending the Constitution. Which is itself next to impossible. The amount of political will to accomplish something has to be absolutely overwhelming to get three-fourths of the states to ratify any meaningful change. And with 28% of Americans firmly believing that Obama is a Muslim socialist, we’re screwed.

Remember, the entire American system of government was deliberately set up to be as resistant as possible to the popular will. The Senate, in particular, is there in order to thwart the desires of ordinary people and to retard social progress as much as possible. You know as well as I do that a voter in Wyoming has something like 20 times the clout of a voter in California—and it was set up that way on purpose, so that elites would never have to bow to the will of what Madison et al referred to as “the mob”. That’s us.

So while ideas like yours are perfectly reasonable and indeed worthwhile, they’re non-starters. Wishful thinking, really—and again, I don’t mean to be disrespectful. I also think you’re making the common Daily Kos-esque presumption that the leaders of the Democratic Party would LIKE to help the people but are prevented from doing so by their own out-of-touchness, or the structure of the government, or the corporate media, or the rump Republican Party, etc. And this isn’t true, either: the Dem Party represents our Owners, not us. Yes, there are individual Democrats (and even a few Republicans) who do represent the people, but they’re always outnumbered and outmaneuvered for leadership roles.

You’re more likely to succeed if you start advocating for real change: the abolition of the unrepresentative Senate and the devolution of its powers to the House—and a vast expansion of the House so that its members will be more responsible to smaller districts. It’s at least as likely to happen, and much more logically compelling an argument.

Comment #4: felagund  on  01/10  at  01:18 PM

More and more, I’m beginning to think we should just get rid of the Senate altogether, or reduce its role to a largely ceremonial one like the House of Lords.  The framers purposely designed it to be a brake on change, which may have made sense in the 18th century. In the modern world it increasingly just looks like an undemocratic roadblock.

Comment #5: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  01:24 PM

felagund: Actually, this is why I keep arguing for changing vote-count methods at a regional level. Since the election methods are determined at the state level, and not at the federal constitution level, it should be easier to get in the changes necessary to support multiple parties (I.e. STV, approval or Condorcet), which would help break up the two-party lock we have now. It might not make for radical change, but it should at least help to diversify the political landscape enough to make at least _some_ change possible.

Comment #6: Left_Wing_Fox  on  01/10  at  01:28 PM

1) Harry Reid is right. Okay, he could have said “ebonics” or “black dialect” or a number of things. But acknowledging that the majority of voters won’t even take seriously someone who doesn’t sound white—and more, midwestern white—should not be called racism. It’s a political reality of a racist country, and failing to take that into account will ensure failure.

2) Men do get more conservative as they age. I’ve seen it everywhere. They have more to lose and become more afraid of it being taken away from them. Women tend more liberal as doors get shut in their faces.

As for retirment age, I dunno. I like the idea. I also like the idea of a lottery style of government service. You get drafted for a term in Congress rather than elected. That would get fresh blood and end campaigning as we know it.

Comment #7: Angelia Sparrow  on  01/10  at  01:33 PM

I’m totally in favor of the felagund/Sidwood ‘Abolish the Senate’ proposal.  Of course, felagund, this is no more feasible than Amanda’s proposal.  It would have to get a Constitutional Amendment sized majority… of Senators.  Not that I mind people talking about it, because it’s a good idea and talking about good unfeasible ideas may inspire good feasible half-measures. 

Merkley is talking about introducing legislation to get rid of the filibuster in 6 years, so it won’t be a naked power grab.  I think that’s a good idea.  Making it easier to pass legislation helps progressives more than conservatives.

Comment #8: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  01:36 PM

“It’ll never happen” is a piss poor reason for not making an argument.  Often, you’re simply wrong.  (Proponents of legal abortion nationwide were told it’ll never happen.)  But more than that, if you don’t ask for the moon, you won’t get shit.  I would hope the health care reform debate demonstrated that.  One man’s “it’ll never happen” is another man’s serious pressure from the left.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  01:43 PM

Angelina, whether or not Reid was right is actually a red herring.  The issue is that the statement was shockingly out of touch, and we are rightfully concerned that someone who would say that is holding high office.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  01:44 PM

Neil, there are two options for passing an amendment, and only one of them involves the Senate. Although I’m not sure if the state legislatures would be any more open to the idea.

Comment #11: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  01:49 PM

We’ve never gotten that one to work, Sidwood, so I tend to not count it.  And on an issue like this, it would be hard to get 2/3 of state legislatures, since it would have to involve small overSenated states voting against their interests.

Comment #12: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  01:55 PM

Neil, we can only hope that constant pressure on this issue will nudge open the window of possibility. Stranger things have happened.

Comment #13: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  02:05 PM

If you don’t like term limits, but want a mandatory retirement age, you are setting up a system where those people who manage to get elected to the Senate at a younger age would be allowed to stay there for multiple terms.  Joe Biden, for example, was elected when he was just 30, and served until he was 66, 36 years, while someone who was first elected when he was 55 would be out after two terms, max.

You’d also be setting up a system in which someone who was 65—or whatever age was picked—and who had never been a Senator, would be ineligible to run for the Senate.

Comment #14: Dana  on  01/10  at  02:14 PM

Fair enough!  And definitely it’s good to talk about it, for Overton Window remodeling reasons.

Comment #15: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  02:16 PM

Left Wing Fox wrote:

this is why I keep arguing for changing vote-count methods at a regional level. Since the election methods are determined at the state level, and not at the federal constitution level, it should be easier to get in the changes necessary to support multiple parties (I.e. STV, approval or Condorcet), which would help break up the two-party lock we have now.

It’s the United States Constitution which prevents this, not the way states count votes.  The Constitution sets up single-member districts, where there is only one winner per district per election.  (Even the Senate, with two members per state, is set up as A and B seats, so there’s only one winner per contest.)  You’d need to go to proportional representation, like countries like Italy and Israel use, for smaller parties to get any representation.  There’s nothing in the federal Constitution which would prevent a state from setting up its government that way, but even that has problems: “at large” voting for municipal elections have been subject to some scrutiny because they tended to reduce the likelihood of minority candidates winning.

Comment #16: Dana  on  01/10  at  02:20 PM

I don’t see the problem with not having people over 65 missing out on starting a new career in politics, Dana.  You can’t just up and do that in the rest of the world, so why should the Senate be different?

The Overton Window is a good reason to have these kinds of posts, and also as we can see here, it’s already started a dialogue about looking at how we can remake the Senate so that it’s more effectively representing the public.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  02:21 PM

Dana, I don’t see a downside to that. I’m in favor of shaking up the Senate a bit more.

Comment #18: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  01/10  at  02:22 PM

Amanda wrote:

I don’t see the problem with not having people over 65 missing out on starting a new career in politics, Dana.  You can’t just up and do that in the rest of the world, so why should the Senate be different?

12.8% of the population is 65 and older; are you saying that they should not even be allowed to vote for a candidate of their age demographic to represent them?  You sure wouldn’t say that blacks (a very similar percentage of the population) shouldn’t even be allowed the chance to vote for a representative who is black.

And, of course, you certainly can up and start a new career after 65: a lot of supposed retirees do it.

Comment #19: Dana  on  01/10  at  02:33 PM

What in the constitution bars multimember districts or STV, Dana?  I’m not seeing it in the stuff on the House.  It says that you have to have 1 representative per X people, but it doesn’t say anything about whether a district has to have X or 5X or 10X people, or what voting system you use. 

I’m actually not too unhappy with the 2-party system, as long as people know that they can take over a party with primary challenges.  But I like STV.  I’d especially love to have it in primaries!

Comment #20: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  02:45 PM

Dana, please cite where the Constitution specifies single-member districts for the House.

In a general sense, please stop posting things which are trivially factually false.  It’s tiring.

Comment #21: Punditus Maximus  on  01/10  at  02:46 PM

Yeah, Dana.  You pretending to be the stalwart defender against prejudice is an argument made in such bad faith that I can’t even deal with it.  Sorry.  If you can find these 65 + folks that want a brand new career in the Senate, please get back to me.  Right now, the people over that age in the Senate are so because they’ve been sitting there for a long time.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/10  at  02:48 PM

The mere presence of more women in the Senate would do a lot to change that, but women are going to have trouble getting more seats if there’s some seats that aren’t going to come up until the seat holders die.  I’d argue that the same dynamics are in play when it comes to racist assumptions that Senators like Reid clearly feel free to hold, because they don’t get challenged much.  The lack of fresh blood cycling into the Senate just makes it harder for people of color to get into the Senate.

It’s more likely that the lack of megabuck funding and political connections is what makes it harder for women and people of color to get elected to the US Senate, not that some 80+ year-old white guy isn’t willing to retire his seat.

Comment #23: CParis  on  01/10  at  02:49 PM

It’s more likely that the lack of megabuck funding and political connections is what makes it harder for women and people of color to get elected to the US Senate, not that some 80+ year-old white guy isn’t willing to retire his seat.

What’s been the easiest route to megabuck funding and political connections for the last couple hundred years in the US? Being a white guy. And once they’re in, they’re hard to displace. In Florida this year, there’s a slim chance that we could get an African-American male into the Senate, but only because it’s an open seat.

Comment #24: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  01/10  at  03:02 PM

If people want to wonk out on this issue, there’s a survey from Brookings that goes into why women don’t run for office as often as men.  It turns out that women are as likely as men to win when they do run, but they just don’t run.

Comment #25: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/10  at  03:02 PM

Am I the only one who remembers that Reid had a “mild” stroke a few years ago?  I still think he should retire, but I’m wondering if that could have caused his lack of sense.

Comment #26: Albert Cirrus  on  01/10  at  03:04 PM

I think a better solution than a mandatory retirement age would be for grassroots Democrats to push for a replacement for them (a lot of senators actually begin their careers in their 60s and it would be pointless to have them there for only one term).  Maybe a primary challenge.

Comment #27: Albert Cirrus  on  01/10  at  03:07 PM

“It’ll never happen” is a piss poor reason for not making an argument.

It’s also historically unsound.  One has only to look at how the right has achieved so many things that it has wanted—or not wholly succeeded but moved the reality and the Overton Windows much closer to what they want—by being maximalists.  By contrast the centre and the left both winnow their own objectives down before even advancing them (“that’s not doable” “that’s not reasonable”) and then have them further whittled away as they try to achieve them.

Picture a football field with a 50-yard line but without end to either the right or the left.  Team Right never accepts anything less than 70 yard gains, goes for the long bomb, and succeeds five out of ten times.  Team Left goes for 10 yard gains, and succeeds four out of ten times.  Assuming an equal number of possessions, where’s the ball going to end up?  That’s American federal government since 1981.

Comment #28: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  03:08 PM

I agree with other posters that the solution to out-of-touch politicians in DC is to back their challengers.  That means getting out and voting in every election, not just the Presidential elections.  Start by supporting change in your town council, county boards, school board, state legs, etc.  All of these positions are stepping stones to national office (as the GOP has learned well).

Comment #29: CParis  on  01/10  at  03:15 PM

Amanda wrote:

You pretending to be the stalwart defender against prejudice is an argument made in such bad faith that I can’t even deal with it.  Sorry.  If you can find these 65 + folks that want a brand new career in the Senate, please get back to me.  Right now, the people over that age in the Senate are so because they’ve been sitting there for a long time.

Naturally, when you have no answer for the argument, you simply attack the arguer.  But if it is your concern that the people in the Senate over the age of 65 are there solely because they’ve been there so long, then shouldn’t your position have been for term number limits rather than a mandatory retirement age?

As for finding people over 65 who want a brand new career in the Senate, we can start with Representative Mike Castle of Delaware, who is making his first run for the Senate this year; Mr Castle is 70.  Representative Joe Sestak of Pennsylvania isn’t 65 yet, but he’s making his first run for the Senate this year, trying to unseat Senator Arlen Specter in the Democratic primary, and if elected, he’d be past your suggested retirement age before his first term was up.  Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) had retired from the Senate, but when Robert Toricelli was forced to resign, Mr Lautenberg, then aged 77, wanted—and got—his seat.

Comment #30: Dana  on  01/10  at  03:30 PM

I’d also note that Senator Ted Kaufmann (D-DE) was appointed to fill his former boss’ seat when he was 69 years old; Mr Kaufmann had never held an elective position.

Comment #31: Dana  on  01/10  at  03:41 PM

I’m pretty sure that we actually have a built in mechanism for getting people out who are no longer in touch with the majority of voters. 

Voting. 

While it hasn’t been working terribly well as of late, I believe that’s the angle we have the most control over fixing—and rightfully so.

Comment #32: Ailuridae  on  01/10  at  03:42 PM

Rather than abolish the filibuster, why not RESTORE it: rather than simply declaring a filibuster and going home, a member of Congress should have to actually stand there and actually talk for the whole time.  That would cut way down on the number of “filibusters”, and make for swell political theater.

Comment #33: Dr. Psycho  on  01/10  at  03:42 PM

What does one say instead of ‘negro dialect’? It is a real selling point for candidates; someone who speaks in such dialect, or, in my state, pidgin English, sounds uneducated and not worthy of higher office. Whether they are or not, the ability to speak grammatically proper English will affect a candidate’s electability. I am speaking as a mixed-race Hawaiian who took YEARS ridding himself of his ‘pidgin dialect’.

Comment #34: Mark Temporis  on  01/10  at  03:46 PM

I don’t know about “grooming”, as it gives me kind of a Sith Lord/Apprentice vibe. Maybe we should try to loosen the stranglehold both parties have on the government, and start including third parties in debates and such. after all, many of the dems and repubs good ideas come from various parties classified as “third”.

Comment #35: The Gray Train  on  01/10  at  04:14 PM

@Chet: But the additional minor parties have the effect of shoving the Overton window around, since the “center” of a small left- or right-wing party will of course be to the left or right of the major centrist parties. This leads to things like Socialism not being practically a curse word in Europe (good) though it also lets extremist far-right parties distribute their ideology (bad). Depending on the parties involved these effects might or might not cancel out.

Comment #36: truth is life  on  01/10  at  04:15 PM

You can’t just up and do that in the rest of the world, so why should the Senate be different?

I wouldn’t be too sure about that, especially when there are many nations whose cultures still equate youth with inexperience and that only those with the most life experience should be placed in political/leadership positions.  Such notions are everpresent in our society with minimum age eligibility rules for running for national public office….last I checked 25 for the house, 30 for the senate, and 35 for Prez. 

If anything, one can make the case that one reason why our and many other political systems are so screwed up and insular is precisely because there are too many career politicians who effectively started their careers young with practically no life/work experience outside of working as a politician or they came from a too limited pool of prior careers(lawyers, businesspeople, trust fund scion of political/wealthy families, politician/party staff) as Giuliani’s poking fun at President Obama’s experience as a community organizer has shown. 

Also, not being older than 65 will not ensure that we have politicians who are more in touch, flexible, and open-minded as a recent youngish president supposedly from Texas, an extremely recent Vice-Presidential candidate, or a certain governor whose hike on the Appalachian trail extended far past the equator has proven…..

So I’m reluctantly forced to conclude that the Senate needs to seriously consider setting a mandatory retirement age, probably around 65.

This is an overly broadbrushed approach based more on popular stereotypes of old people all being narrow-minded, set in their ways, and out of touch.  A bit unfair IMO considering I’ve seen the same such traits in all age groups….including the supposedly most openminded adolescents/young adults. 

Better to reform the electoral system to allow much more competition through means such as public campaign financing, amped up civics/US History-politics education for everyone, and engendering a cultural attitude adjustment among the American public at large so they accord politics and political participation enough of a priority/importance so they don’t do things like protest President Obama’s speech because they feel catching the opening season of popular TV show du jour is far more important. rolleyes

Comment #37: exholt  on  01/10  at  04:20 PM

For those advocating mandatory retirement, I would echo the posters who have pointed out that shutting out the elderly from standing for election is unfair; I would add that imposing term limits and public financing would take care of the problem better than an age ceiling would.

The reason why Senators are able to hold onto their seats until they die is because the system is designed to give incumbents a massive advantage through their access to vast insider fundraising resources, for as many elections in a row as they desire.

The system should be designed to encourage politicians to move up the ladder or get out of the way. Not only does that prevent entrenched dynastic government from forming and ensure that new blood is constantly pumped into the body politic, but it also would make it easier for the most talented public servants to rise to the highest levels of power rather than the richest and best-connected.

Comment #38: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  04:21 PM

Kennedy’s tragic death at age 77 left a hole in the Senate that could have very well led to the tanking of health care reform.

“Could”?

Anyway, I recently saw an excellent article on the institutionally schlerotic nature of your government (or rather your governance - individual governments can be fairly good) - alas, I can’t trace it again, although this comes close.

BTW, Amanda, you need to correct the spelling in the title lest you be accused of having your own senior moment 8-).

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  04:31 PM

If people want to wonk out on this issue, there’s a survey from Brookings that goes into why women don’t run for office as often as men.  It turns out that women are as likely as men to win when they do run, but they just don’t run.

“Women who run” is a self-selected sample. Your observation doesn’t mean that there isn’t a bias against women - if as many women as men run, perhaps voters would choose more males.  It does imply that the smaller number of women who have the drive to run despite any bias do well, but possibly due to their own exceptional merits and drive.

Comment #40: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/10  at  04:36 PM

Chet, how do you figure that the ideological makeup of Congress has no effect on what are considered “acceptable” views and policies? Or that increased the visibility of “outside of the mainstream” ideas in political discourse don’t effect what is considered “mainstream”?

Comment #41: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  04:40 PM

I have no solution to this issue, but it is indeed a problem.  Senators are staying around longer and longer these days and the body as a whole is really old.  I don’t want to sound ageist, but it definitely affects performance.  I’ve had several people who work on the Hill complain that some of these senators, including Reid,  simply lose it as the day wears on—they just can’t stay sharp.

I fear that as people continue to live longer the problem is going to tend to get worse, slowing demographic change in the Senate.

Comment #42: Sir Charles  on  01/10  at  04:56 PM

Chet, I think you are missing the forest for the trees.  The concept of the Overton Window has nothing to say on how the positions of a single Senator will affect those of another single Senator, just as describing the motion of a fluid has nothing to say on the motion of its individual molecules. No one has claimed that it does.

While the election of Bernie Sanders (and other progressives) won’t necessarily affect Ben Nelson’s positions, it most certainly does affect what is considered “mainstream;” indeed, the mainstream is defined by what positions are advocated most frequently. With more progressive voices, the mainstream must shift to the left.  With more conservative voices, the mainstream must shift to the left.  This is why the “mainstream” is constantly shifting, and indeed how any progress is made at all without the use of violence.

On a side note, you’re treading close to the “being a dick” line by calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid.

Comment #43: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  04:59 PM

Correction: “with more conservative voices, the mainstream must shift to the RIGHT.”

Comment #44: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  05:00 PM

I agree with you Amanda.
I despair how much any real reform is going to be possible without campaign finance reform however.
When it costs a million (or a few million) to run for a job that pays a bit over $100K a year things are as upside down as many people’s mortgages.
I also think that we should take steps to prevent people who leave elected office from becoming lobbyists and using the connections they’ve made to influence their former colleagues for moneyed interests.
However, since money is the way Washington DC works how much anything will change in our lifetimes, unless we can get the slacktivists - who think that telling everyone on your Facebook friend’s list your bra colour rather than doing something that actually helps a cause is somehow effective- to start realizing that the changes needed call for far more than blogging about it, then I just don’t know.
Not that I’m saying it’s not possible but it’s something that we need to think and take action on far more than we do.

Comment #45: Danica Lefse Queen  on  01/10  at  05:01 PM

we already have term limits built in to the constitution, they’re known as “elections”.

chet (#46) is correct. however, what he neglects to mention is that senators (and representatives) have an obligation to the country as a whole, as well as to their home-state constituents. that seems to be where the disconnect is.

Comment #46: cpinva  on  01/10  at  05:03 PM

I agree with this idea, though I’d probably up the retirement age to 68 or 70… the reason being, forcing a senator into retirement at 65 is not likely to prevent them from taking a lobbying gig, nor is it necessarily likely to prevent lobbying firms from being willing to hire them.  60 is the new 50, and many people who have the wherewithal to retire at 65 still don’t, simply because they like making money too much.  Look at some of the most prominent billionaires in the world, and consider how many of them are still working… Warren Buffett, Rupert Murdoch, George Soros - all of these men have plenty of money to walk away into the sunset now in their 70s, but none of them have.  A 65 year old senator forced into retirement is probably just as likely to take a lobbying gig as a 55 year old senator forced out of office by term limits.  But push that retirement age closer to 70, and the likelihood of them living out their days on their senate pension increases enormously.

Perhaps this can be the rule… the oldest age in which one can begin serving a six-year senate term is age 65, but allow people to serve their complete term if they are elected before their 66th birthday.  For instance, Senator X is 65 years and 10 months old in January 2010 when their new term starts - they are allowed to serve the full term since they were under 66 at the start of the term, though they will be 71 years and 10 months old at the end of their current term, at which point they will have to resign.

I’m not sure it’s too workable to require a set mandatory retirement age, as that would necessarily lead to expensive special elections having to be run all the time.  If you begin your current term at age 63 and turn 65 two years in, it’s an expensive process for the state to have to put on a special election to replace you for the remaining 4 years of your term.  I think the best option is to create a maximum age at which one can begin a full term of office.

Granted this is all probably just wishful thinking and has almost no chance of happening anytime soon.  It would require a Constitutional Amendment… which is damn hard to do.  So hard that it’s only been done 17 times in the last 221 years.

Comment #47: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  05:19 PM

12.8% of the population is 65 and older; are you saying that they should not even be allowed to vote for a candidate of their age demographic to represent them?  You sure wouldn’t say that blacks (a very similar percentage of the population) shouldn’t even be allowed the chance to vote for a representative who is black.

Your point has some validity, but it is contradicted by the fact that we don’t allow 18-24 year olds to vote for anyone their age for ANY federal office.  18-29 year olds can’t vote for a senator their age.  And 18-34 year olds can’t vote for a president their age.

The reason this won’t happen isn’t because there is an inherent moral wrong which prevents it from happening - we already age discriminate against young adults in terms of what offices they can run for - it’s that those who are 65+ have considerably more money to block such a thing from ever happening.  And let’s not kid ourselves, all laws in this country are bought and paid for.

Comment #48: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  05:37 PM

An age limit would help with the cultural issues you cite but unless and until big money is removed from campaigns we’re still going to have the “millionaires who don’t know shit about regular people’s lives’ problem even if there is more diversity in the makeup of Congress.

Comment #49: DonnaDiva  on  01/10  at  05:37 PM

Again, Chet, your focus here is both entirely too narrow and misplaced.  Policy outcomes are NOT determined by the positions of individual Senators, but by the combined positions of countless people: not only other Senators whose positions help shape the final outcome, but also the positions of each Senator’s coterie of advisors, consultants, handlers, etc. In turn, all of these people’s positions are influenced by and filtered through the sum total of an even larger group’s positions, as determined by polling, focus groups, and (crucially) election results.  All of these people (which by now includes every voter in the country, every think tank, every elected official, every pundit) collectively form the prism through which any individual Senator’s policy proposals must pass.

Politics, just like everything else, does not happen in a vacuum. Nor does the flow of ideas and policies go in one direction; it goes in all directions at once.  Policymakers create policy based on this political zeitgiest, and in turn those policies go on to define the zeitgeist.  To maintain that policymakers are somehow immune from the pressures of the society they live in is to ignore reality.

Comment #50: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  05:38 PM

One of the problems, which applies to Democrats like Obama who came of age in the era of Reagan as well as people like Harry Reid, who is suffering from stage 3 “curmudgeonly grampaism” is that when the ideological zeitgeist of the country shifts and people demand “new leadership,” the people positioned to be in charge are more likely than not the ones who are ideologically at home in a long-past era but just happen to be in the right place at the right time when it comes to take power.

You’re only as young as you feel. The problem is not that we need a mandatory retirement age for politicians. The problem is that we need politicians who are able to adjust to the ideological and cultural needs of the day.

Comment #51: Tyro  on  01/10  at  05:49 PM

Tyro, you’ll only very rarely get politicians who are able to adjust to the ideological and cultural needs of the day.  People are inflexible.  Keep new blood flowing into the system though, and you’ll have the desired effect.

Comment #52: Sidwood  on  01/10  at  05:52 PM

Eh, I don’t think this is a big deal at all.  The one thing that at this point I can still really admire about our President is that, as a smart, biracial man, he has given these things a lot of thought.  He knows that white people say all kinds of stupid things about race.  It’s more important what’s in someone’s heart.  Does Reid hate people because of the color of their skin?  I’d argue that the fact that he supported Obama and encouraged him early on to make the run, proves not.  He was probably worried, as many of us were (I was) that America would not elect a black man.  Or maybe he was talking to someone who had that worry.

Is the phrase negro dialect incredibly racially ignorant? Sure.

But I brushed it off the same way Obama did.

Comment #53: JennyLI  on  01/10  at  05:57 PM

Actions speak louder than words and all that, AnglScarlett?  That’s what I thought when I heard about this. 

That said, it doesn’t make it okay.  Not when we have an entire 2 or 3 generations of people at this point who would never ever say something like “Negro dialect”.  That is such a clearly outdated, out of touch manner of speaking out race that someone who thinks it’s okay to do so needs to put away somewhere and only pulled out for Thanksgiving and Christmas, when we have our defenses up and are prepared to hear outdated racist nonsense from people who quit learning about what’s acceptable in modern society.

Comment #54: stubbles  on  01/10  at  06:25 PM

LOL.  Yeah, I get what you are saying stubbles.  I have a couple of old foggies in my family like this, and I am always cringing over what comes out of their mouths. 

I personally am with the poster way up top who said that more and more they are thinking it’s time to get rid of the Senate all together.  I agree, and for exaclty the reasons they lay out.

With this though, I guess that we’ve seen so many really vicious racists with meaness in their hearts, that an ignorant comment from a guy who was actually encouraging Obama to run for President, just kind of leaves me flat.  I don’t know.

Comment #55: JennyLI  on  01/10  at  06:31 PM

I have a proposal: we pass an amendment saying that Senators are appointed for life, and that the Senate will be as powerless as the House of Lords.  95% of the Senators will trade actual influence over the political process for a lifetime seat that will get them prestige and time on all the Sunday morning teevee shows.  They don’t actually care about passing laws anyway.

Comment #56: The Main Gauche of Mild Reason  on  01/10  at  06:50 PM

(a lot of senators actually begin their careers in their 60s and it would be pointless to have them there for only one term)

I certainly don’t think it’s the norm… 17 of our 100 U.S. Senators began their service in the Senate over the age of 60, and it should be noted that 4 of them were originally appointed, not elected, to their offices.  Roland Burris, Ted Kaufman, and Paul Kirk were all appointed to fill the seats of former Senators Obama, Biden, and Kennedy, and none of these three is running for re-election this year.  Daniel Akaka was appointed to fill the vacant seat of deceased U.S. Senator Spark Matsunaga in May 1990, but he has been re-elected 5 times.

So only 13 current U.S. Senators began their Senate careers above age 60 after having been originally elected rather than appointed to serve.

Only four current U.S. Senators were first elected (not appointed) to the Senate over the age of 65 - Lautenberg, Bunning, Risch, and Sanders.

Nine of our current U.S. Senators were first elected to office under the age of 40, though there are no U.S. Senators under the age of 40 currently serving.  Only three of those nine were first elected in the last 20 years.  Only one person in the past decade was first elected to office under the age of 40 - Mark Pryor (D-AR).

The vast majority of current senators began their careers in their 40s and 50s - 74% of current senators began serving in this age range.

The current youngest U.S. Senator - George Lemieux (R-FL): 40 years, 234 days
The current oldest U.S. Senator - Robert Byrd (D-WV): 92 years, 51 days

Assuming there are no changes to the current makeup of the Senate between now and the end of the 111th Congress, this is how old the U.S. Senate will be on January 2, 2011:

0 - Number of senators under 40
7 - Number of senators in their 40s
28 - Number of senators in their 50s
35 - Number of senators in their 60s
25 - Number of senators in their 70s
4 - Number of senators in their 80s
1 - Number of senators in their 90s

Nearly half of the U.S. Senate will be over 65 years of age in January 2011.  Nearly 2/3 will be over the age of 60 at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_Senators_by_age

Comment #57: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  06:51 PM

I hate to say this, but I agree with Dana here. People over the age of 65 have concerns that might not be adequately addressed without at least a representative percentage of their peers holding public office.  I’m not in favor of reducing representation for already marginalized groups, especially a group that has such intersectionality with the disabled community.

I liked jack lecou’s suggestion of public campaign financing.  I think it would be easier to implement and also more popular.

Comment #58: Godless Heathen  on  01/10  at  06:54 PM

I’m saying we shouldn’t say “negro”, corwin.  Every population has their own dialect and rednecks are going to hate on people who don’t sound “normal”.  So it makes sense to address it and say something like “the uneducated masses who cling to guns and religion aren’t going to accept someone as president who doesn’t sound like they came from an upper crust, white bread neighborhood.”  Like I just did, you can say that without bringing up how black people do and do not talk and put the onus where it belongs:  on the people who want someone who sounds like them.

Comment #59: stubbles  on  01/10  at  06:55 PM

In Florida this year, there’s a slim chance that we could get an African-American male into the Senate, but only because it’s an open seat.

VERY slim chance.

Should Crist survive the teabagging effort to get him primaried out, Meek probably doesn’t have a prayer - Crist will probably win in a landslide according to just about all available polling.  Should Rubio manage to knock Crist out in the GOP primary, the general election would be a lot more interesting, but even against Rubio, Meek is still coming up on the short end of the stick in most of the current polls.

I’d say there’s about an 80% chance that the Florida U.S. Senate seat stays in Republican hands in 2010.  It’s not ranking among the more competitve races like Missouri, Ohio, and New Hampshire.  Nate Silver at 538.com has it currently ranked #14 of his 15 most competitve senate races.

I certainly hope Kendrick Meek wins… but I’m not ready to put any money on it at Intrade at this point.

Comment #60: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  07:21 PM

“at large” voting for municipal elections have been subject to some scrutiny because they tended to reduce the likelihood of minority candidates winning.

On the other hand, IRV with preferential ranking for multiple candidates in a multi-seat at-large election fixes many of those problems, but that’s really limited to municipal elections.

One important reform which would could be made without any constitutional changes would be simply doubling or tripling the size of the house of representatives. You’d have smaller districts that are less expensive to run in.

Reid apparently still uses the term “negro” and makes references to the “negro dialect.” McCain has never used a computer or e-mail. Obama still thinks that Republicans are a group of well-meaning intellectually honest people whose philosophy is merely an understandable reaction to “liberal overreach.” All these things are tolerable from your older uncle on Thanksgiving, but unacceptable to someone claiming to represent voters. Many voters, older ones in particular, belabor on the mistaken belief that the job of a politician is to represent people like them when their job in fact is to represent a large number of voters of many different generations and keep up with modern standards. I think this may well be incompatible with the structure of the senate. So turn it into the house of lords… or just keep it around for approving treaties and confirming judges and cabinet members. Given them a very junior role in passing legislation and treat the senate as the sort of place you send aging politicians when you want to put them out to pasture to ensure that senators don’t start getting any strong ambitions or delusions of increased power.

Comment #61: Tyro  on  01/10  at  07:22 PM

I’d also note that Senator Ted Kaufmann (D-DE) was appointed to fill his former boss’ seat when he was 69 years old; Mr Kaufmann had never held an elective position.

Poor example.  Ted Kaufman was appointed with a pretty explicit understanding that he would only serve as a seatwarmer, having pledged up front not to seek re-election in 2010.  While I realize that there is nothing to legally prevent him from running again, consider who he was before he took the seat - Senator Joe Biden’s Chief of Staff.  Kaufman was appointed specifically so that Beau Biden could run for the seat in 2010.  Kaufman is an old friend to the Biden family - I doubt he would screw over his old boss and renege on his promise.

Personally, I wish there was a way to constitutionally mandate that all appointments to the Senate to fill vacancies be given to placeholders, and that they be automatically barred from running for their office while they are serving as an appointed senator.

Comment #62: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  07:29 PM

You know, I just can’t get upset about Reid’s comment.  It was an ignorant way to put things, but his concerns were meaningful.

Comment #63: Punditus Maximus  on  01/10  at  07:31 PM

I might also add that term limits have been an unmitigated disaster for California: legislators have no time to gain experience understanding issues and the process of legislating and dealing with the consequences. As a result, legislators are effectively owned by the staff and their campaign funders, so they’re effectively automatons of the party and well-connected lobbyists.

What we seem to have settled on is a compromise where we tolerate aging Senators who are far removed from relevant modern concerns because we want a “voice from the past.” There is some good for this (Moynihan, Byrd, Kennedy) and bad (Helms, Thurmond). What we may need to do is relegate the 65+ crowd from positions of power: Sen. Reid’s statement would be a nothingburger (and I don’t think it’s much of a story beyond, “old white man in senate speaks in old white man dialect”) were it not for the fact that he’s majority leader. Sen. McCain should not have been running for president. Sen. Helms should not have been Chairmain of the Foreign Relations committee. Is it really any surprise that an institution for which even its most fervent supporters regard as a point of pride for the fact that it is out of touch with american society is, in fact, out of touch with american society?

Comment #64: Tyro  on  01/10  at  07:42 PM

The Godless Heathen wrote:

I hate to say this, but I agree with Dana here.

My work here is done.  smile

Comment #65: Dana  on  01/10  at  07:47 PM

Rather than abolish the filibuster, why not RESTORE it: rather than simply declaring a filibuster and going home, a member of Congress should have to actually stand there and actually talk for the whole time.

Oh, brilliant. So instead of Republicans simply blocking bills that can’t get 60 votes, they can block one bill that can’t get 60 votes and all subsequent bills, even the ones that could pass cloture. Even the ones that have unanimous support!

Wow. You’re a genius.

Actually, if you bothered examining the history of the filibuster, you would see that it was a far more effective and a not as often abused tool prior to the rules revision in the mid 1970 which enabled a filibuster to be called merely by getting 41 senators on one side of the debate.

The simple fact is, very few people would actually be willing to carry out a traditional floor filibuster.  Why?  Because it’s no fun to stand and talk and wear an adult diaper in front of 99 of your colleagues for dozens of hours on end.

A floor filibuster does not allow the speaker to step away from the podium for ANY REASON.  Not to pee, not to shit, not to eat, not to sit down for a moment… nothing.  They literally must stand in place speaking non-stop to keep the filibuster alive.  Strom Thurmond is one of the few to actually do this… he went nearly 24 hours in the 1950s to try to prevent Civil Rights legislation from moving forward, and during his speech, he never once went to the bathroom.  Because you aren’t allowed to, and if you do, you have just ended your filibuster.

Prior to the 1975 rule change, cloture was never voted on more than 25 times in any session of Congress, when the floor filibuster rules were still in place.  At the end of the 110th Congress, cloture voting had taken place a record 112 times for the session.  I’m sure the record will again be shattered in the 111th Congress that ends in January 2011.

If you brought back the pre-1975 rules requiring a floor filibuster, odds are that calls for filibuster would be far fewer, because it makes a filibuster a much more tedious activity for the party attempting the filibuster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuster#U.S._Filibuster_History

Comment #66: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  07:48 PM

Stubbles wrote:

I’m saying we shouldn’t say “negro”, corwin.

There’s a very popular, politically liberal Philadelphia blogger who goes by the pseudonym the Field Negro.  I think that most of the Pandagonistae would like his site.

Comment #67: Dana  on  01/10  at  07:50 PM

Shut the fuck up, Dana.

Comment #68: asdf  on  01/10  at  08:06 PM

Angelina, whether or not Reid was right is actually a red herring.  The issue is that the statement was shockingly out of touch, and we are rightfully concerned that someone who would say that is holding high office.

You mean just the word “Negro,” right? Because the substance of his observations—that Obama would benefit from being relatively light-skinned, and would benefit from not exciting racial stereotypes by his speech patterns—like the observation that he would benefit from allowing white people to think about race as little as possible—was not at all out of touch.

Comment #69: asdf  on  01/10  at  08:19 PM

If you brought back the pre-1975 rules requiring a floor filibuster, odds are that calls for filibuster would be far fewer, because it makes a filibuster a much more tedious activity for the party attempting the filibuster.

It also pisses off the other party a hell of a lot more when you hold up all of the senate’s business for your filibuster. With the pro-forma filibusters, it’s just a small procedural issue, and to the majority party, “it’s just business.” To do an old-school filibuster, you had to be willing to burn some bridges and some goodwill with your colleagues, which carried with it a threat of retaliation down the road.

Comment #70: Tyro  on  01/10  at  08:20 PM

There’s a very popular, politically liberal Philadelphia blogger

Dana, on a regular basis, I hear middle aged right-wing men lament the fact that they can say “the n word” while blacks use it among themselves and in rap songs all the time. It’s a trite observation that creates a neon sign above the head of the speaker that says, “I am an boorish idiot.” It’s an act of using a set of ignorant talking points for white men to bond over, and since I’m white, they think it’s a great observation that will cause me to sympathize with them, when it fact it marks the guy as a provincial ignoramus.

Comment #71: Tyro  on  01/10  at  08:25 PM

It is a real selling point for candidates; someone who speaks in such dialect, or, in my state, pidgin English, sounds uneducated and not worthy of higher office.

, said Mark Temporis.

Mark, up here in Quebec Jean Chretien (who was PM for about ten years) had real trouble with many francophone voters because (amongst other things) his French was very old-fashioned folksy `way old guy on the small town street’ kind of French.  There’s often a real disdain for a politician who doesn’t sound posh/educated.  Even Rene Levesque—probably the most real “just an ordinary guy” politician Canada has produced in the past fifty years or more—spoke excellent, polished French (perhaps in part because of his past as a radio reporter).  Ask BlackBloc.

Comment #72: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  08:30 PM

I’m sure many of you know the likelihood of asking elderly men to pass regulations that cause them to give up their power and perks is essentially zero.

They don’t have to be elderly.  Note, for example, that here in Ontario mandatory retirement—long held to be constitutional—was legislatively removed around the time that large numbers of boomers were approaching 65.  When that went through I blessed my decision to return to the legal profession rather than to go back and go for a Ph.D.: the only reason that ANY jobs would be opening in universities up here was the prospective of mass retirement of the boomers; with that removed the tenured dead wood are now safe from the axe and the chances of finding a spot anywhere were next to zero.  (At one time in Ontario something like only 4% of professors were under 45.)

Comment #73: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  08:43 PM

Neil’s right, if we want to get rid of dead wood in congress, we should start by reforming the committee assignment rules. We need to look at various ways to reduce the advantages of seniority/incumbency. I wonder if there’s a way to sever the link between being on a committee and being able to raise money. A committee assignment is a goldmine because all the vested interests with business before the committee shower you with campaign contributions. The combination of the power of being on a committee plus the fundraising advantage contributes to the quasi-feudal character of the Senate.

Comment #74: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/10  at  08:47 PM

Lindsay, Didn’t LBJ ditch the seniority system when he was Senate Majority Leader?  Wasn’t doing so a wonderful tool for encouraging party loyalty and galvanizing efforts?

Course, there hasn’t been a Dem Senate Majority leader since with 1/100th the backbone and drive and ideological commitment of LBJ since, so THAT may have something to do with it.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  08:59 PM

Tyro, did you do something really radical and follow the link?  The site is politically liberal—probably moreso than Pandagon—and you might even like it.  He has a YouTube in his sidebar, featuring Malcolm X, explaining his choice of pseudonyms.

Comment #76: Dana  on  01/10  at  08:59 PM

Dana, the behavior I was discussing wasn’t referring to the proprietor of the blog. I was referring to you.

Comment #77: Tyro  on  01/10  at  09:06 PM

I’m not convinced that age makes much of a difference.  As long as the US Senate is the point of the American political system where anything good for the people—as opposed to corporations—and as long as Senators need to wholly sell themselves to Big Money donors in order to have even a hope in hell of being elected then no real reform will occur, even with age limits: the corporations and industries will just buy younger people.  Santorum was 36 when elected, for example, and he was a rabidly reactionary and pro-corporate douche.

Comment #78: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  09:11 PM

“Field Negro” was being ironic. That makes a huge difference.

Comment #79: Norvegica  on  01/10  at  09:12 PM

typo:
“where anything good for the people—as opposed to corporations—”
should be:
“where anything good for the people—as opposed to corporations—is smothered in its crib”

Comment #80: seeker6079  on  01/10  at  09:13 PM

Age limits can’t solve the problem that is capitalism. They may to a degree cope with entrenched racism and sexism, though.

This doesn’t have to be a law, either. It could simply be a policy of the Democratic Party: if you’re running and you’re over 65, you will not receive any support from the Party apparatus.

Comment #81: asdf  on  01/10  at  09:19 PM

I would not crucify Reid over “Negro dialect” for two reasons: First, I believe that only African-Americans have standing to object to remarks with racial content that are not intentional slurs. Second, when you get older than, say 55, you often find yourself searching for words, especially if you are trying to formulate your thoughts in words for the first time. The words you learned first are the most accessible.  Obama is an African-American man who does not sound like a stereotypical African-American, although his years on the South Side of Chicago enabled him to learn how to sound like a local.

Comment #82: Hector B.  on  01/10  at  09:33 PM

Angelina, whether or not Reid was right is actually a red herring.  The issue is that the statement was shockingly out of touch, and we are rightfully concerned that someone who would say that is holding high office.

You mean just the word “Negro,” right? Because the substance of his observations—that Obama would benefit from being relatively light-skinned, and would benefit from not exciting racial stereotypes by his speech patterns—like the observation that he would benefit from allowing white people to think about race as little as possible—was not at all out of touch.

That’s pretty much how I view this whole kerfuffle.

The problem with what Reid says wasn’t that his statement was substantively incorrect, it was that he said it in an incredibly racially insensitive way.  While it would likely have still ruffled some feathers if he had said “ebonics” instead of “negro dialect”, I think far less of a big deal would be made of the whole thing.

And, as can be easily observed by the way much of America still regards black leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (who agreed with Obama that this really isn’t a huge deal), a huge part of why Obama was able to win is because he campaigned as a “politican who happens to be black” rather than as a stereotypical “black politician”.

Obama is to politics what Tiger Woods was to golf (prior to the revelation of his extramarital affairs)... the most obvious racists are still gonna hate him no matter what, but people who are not so obviously racist (often even to themselves) are much more open to people like Obama, because he doesn’t fit the common stereotypes that a lot of sheltered white people have about African-Americans.  Namely that he is “clean and articulate”, as Vice President Biden once stupidly said about his boss.

Comment #83: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  09:36 PM

This is akin to Reid saying something like:  he was as gay as a bluejay when Obama was elected.  Yeah, we all would get his point, but that wouldn’t change the fact that he just told the country that he’s so out of touch he’s not even capable of using language the way most people do.  That’s not how people discuss happiness anymore and “Negro dialect” isn’t how we discuss ethnic/regional differences in word pronunciation.  I also wouldn’t vote for my 70 year old uncle who brags about how good he is at “n*gg*r rigging” things, even though he genuinely is quite possibly a genius when it comes to fixing his washing machine with a wire hanger.  There are a ton of people capable of fixing a washing machine, why not hire the guy who can conduct himself appropriately in modern society?

Comment #84: stubbles  on  01/10  at  09:50 PM

“Negro dialect” isn’t how we discuss ethnic/regional differences in word pronunciation.  I also wouldn’t vote for my 70 year old uncle who brags about how good he is at “n*gg*r rigging” things

Somebody alert the United Negro College Fund that their name is now considered offensive:

http://www.uncf.org/

Comment #85: Hector B.  on  01/10  at  10:00 PM

Stubbles, your comment cracks me up.

Comment #86: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/10  at  10:01 PM

Hector, the names of institutions are fossils—a glimpse of how the language was spoken when the organization was founded.

The United Negro College Fund started up in 1943, when “negro” was a neutral, socially acceptable term. Times have changed.

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People got its start in 1909. That doesn’t make “colored people” acceptable in casual conversation today.

Comment #87: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/10  at  10:13 PM

Somebody alert the United Negro College Fund that their name is now considered offensive:

http://www.uncf.org/

I don’t know Hector… I agree that the word “negro” isn’t inherently offensive in every possible context, but there aren’t many contexts left in which it is socially acceptable.

I mean, if you worked as a teacher at an inner city school with mostly African-American students, would you tell your friends that most of your students were “negroes”?  Would you say, “There’s this incredibly bright young negro woman taking my literature course”?

It’s just not a word that American society is comfortable with in 2010 in the way it was in the 1940s and 1950s.  UNCF was incorporated in the 1940s, when the word “negro” was socially acceptable to the point that it was the Associated Press standard for describing African-Americans in print journalism.  That they have retained the name they took in 1944 is likely due to the value of a brand image that gets built over decades, not so much tacit approval for everyday usage of the word “negro” in casual dialogue.

I mean, you could make a similar argument for the NAACP to a lesser extent, but I think a white person referring to a group of African-Americans as a “group of colored people” would probably get a similarly uncomfortable reaction as referring to them as a “group of negroes”.

Comment #88: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  10:20 PM

Ben Nelson doesn’t live in Vermont society, he lives in Nebraskan society. The reason that we talk about “two Americas” is because those are very much not the same society.

I’m pretty certain that the phrase “two Americas” has little to do with the cultural, political, and economic differences between Nebraska and Vermont (or Nebraska and any other state), and everything to do with the difference in the standard of living of our wealthiest citizens in comparison to everyone else.  It was a fundamental theme of John Edwards 2008 Presidential Campaign.

And it doesn’t have much of anything to do with Nebraska, Vermont, California or any geography at all.  Though there are a larger number of billionaires in New York than anywhere else in America, one of the richest persons on earth lives in Omaha… Nebraska.

Also, a senator’s constituents are not necessarily limited to only those people residing in that senator’s home state.  Sure, those are the only people who get a vote, but without campaign funds, it doesn’t necessarily matter how many people might potentially vote for a particular politician, but rather how effective that politician is at getting his or her name at the front of potential voter’s minds.  Which takes money.  The more, the better.  Thanks to our current campaign finance structure and online advocacy and fundraising, there are plenty of politicians and political causes getting funded from the other side of the country, depending on whether or not there’s something potentially useful to the donor.  Campaign contributions are not limited by state borders as much as they used to be.  Al Franken is not my senator, but I threw $20 his way during the recount process, because I wanted to see him seated.  And that’s pretty tiny potatoes.  30 or 40 years ago, very few average citizens would have really even considered donating money to a campaign for a politican that didn’t directly represent them in Congress.

As has been pointed out above, committee assignments can play a huge role in a senator’s future, depending on which corporate sector that senator’s committee can impact.  If you are the chair of a committee that helps decide defense contracts, you may represent New Mexico, but you’re likely going to be getting a shitload of contributions from Maryland (among others), where Lockheed-Martin’s global HQ is located.

Comment #89: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  10:52 PM

Um, no, I’m pretty sure “ebonics” is way more racist than “negro dialect.” I’ve never heard anybody but racist white conservatives call it “ebonics”.

Read some history.

Though it is used condescendingly by some white conservatives, the word was coined by Robert Williams in 1973, Professor Emeritus of Psychology, African, and African-American studies at Washington University in St. Louis.  He was one of the founding members of the Association of Black Psychologists.

Saying it’s racist is as stupidly uninformed as saying that Kwanzaa is racist because ignorant white conservatives often make fun of that holiday.

Comment #90: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  11:01 PM

Conservatives misrepresented ebonics as a plan to teach kids black English in public school. It was actually a proposal to teach kids Standard Written English more effectively by taking into account the fact that they were speaking the Black English Vernacular at home. Some of the grammar of BEV is consistently different from that of Standard Written English. Like the rules for negation. (Didn’t have any… vs. Didn’t have no…)

Comment #91: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/10  at  11:16 PM

Back to the retirement-age thing: I think that Bernie Sanders may be the perfect counterexample. Not just because of how old he is now, but also because of how he got to the senate. First he was an organizer, then he was mayor of a medium-sized city, then he was a representative, finally he got to the senate. Being on of the hundred people who can make or (more usually) break all of the nation’s legislation shouldn’t, ideally, be someone’s first or second job in politics. (This may sound suspiciously like “paying your dues”, but I think it’s more about gaining enough experience not to be immediately rolled by colleagues, staff and hangers-on.)

Fixing the seniority system would help a bit, but only a bit, because if you don’t have seniority you have some other way of choosing committee chairs (who have to be around for a fair amount of time to know what they’re doing), and that has its own consequences.

I’m going to make a different proposal: equally untenable, but perhaps with just the right degree of randomness: no publicly-paid healthcare for sitting representatives or senators. You come down with something that could kill you, or even just make your life hell, you pay for it yourself, or you get your care paid for 100% once you leave your seat. Maybe once you’re better you could run again, maybe not. I can’t think offhand of something not a straight lottery that would miimic the morbidity/mortality profiles that were around when the senate was created.

Comment #92: paul  on  01/10  at  11:41 PM

Right, but I can read Ta-Nehisi Coates use the word “nigger”, and I know that it’s interpreted entirely differently depending on whether it emerges from the mouth of a black person or a white person. “Ebonics” is surely the same way. And it sounds like such a ridiculously racist and derogative term, too.

Well, I assume we can agree that the word “nigger” is probably the most offensively racist term for African-Americans there is.

And whatever one thinks of the word “ebonics”, one thing is absolutely certain… the word “negro” is a hell of a lot closer etymologically to the word “nigger” than the word “ebonics” is.

Ebonics may be a very racially insensitive word.  I’ve certainly heard it used in racially insensitive contexts.  I’ve also heard the word “Canadian” used in a racially insensitive context to describe African-Americans, though I don’t feel the least bit racist in saying that BlackBloc is a zany anarchist Canadian.  I’ve also heard the word ebonics used in completely non-insensitive, non-ironic contexts, for instance by one of my African-American professors in a course on media and culture - it was used as Professor Williams originally intended it to be used to describe African-American Vernacular English.

Except as it is used by an organization like UNCF, I think the word “negro” is probably far more racially insensitive to most people than is the word “ebonics”.  As a matter of fact, outside of its use by UNCF, I can’t think of any particular context in which a white person using the word “negro” would be acceptable, except if they are discussing the word itself as a cultural artifact as we presently are doing.

Comment #93: DTG in STL  on  01/10  at  11:46 PM

Back to the retirement-age thing: I think that Bernie Sanders may be the perfect counterexample. Not just because of how old he is now, but also because of how he got to the senate. First he was an organizer, then he was mayor of a medium-sized city, then he was a representative, finally he got to the senate. Being on of the hundred people who can make or (more usually) break all of the nation’s legislation shouldn’t, ideally, be someone’s first or second job in politics. (This may sound suspiciously like “paying your dues”, but I think it’s more about gaining enough experience not to be immediately rolled by colleagues, staff and hangers-on.)

More importantly, it goes some ways to reducing the “out-of-touch” syndrome common to politicians whose whole life was spent in politics and/or coming from a wealthy family and/or occupations that are far removed from those of most of us (i.e. Attorney, political/party staff, corporate business exec, etc). 

One should keep in mind the following when we think about using overly blunt broadbrushed approaches to reduce opportunities to run for political office to certain demographics:

Also, not being older than 65 will not ensure that we have politicians who are more in touch, flexible, and open-minded as a recent youngish president supposedly from Texas, an extremely recent Vice-Presidential candidate, or a certain governor whose hike on the Appalachian trail extended far past the equator has proven…..

Comment #94: exholt  on  01/11  at  04:03 AM

“Whether they are or not, the ability to speak grammatically proper English will affect a candidate’s electability.”

But Reid wasn’t talking about “the ability to speak grammatically proper English”. Look at the context in which he made that statement. He was comparing Obama to other accomplished black people in politics who could possibly try to run for President. I think it’s safe to say that almost every single one, if not all of those people speak “grammatically proper English”. They just sound black as they do it. According to Reid’s “standard”, someone who sounds exactly like MLK wouldn’t make the cut.

Comment #95: Plantsmantx  on  01/11  at  04:41 AM

I propose 75.

Comment #96: Ursula  on  01/11  at  05:14 AM

But Reid wasn’t talking about “the ability to speak grammatically proper English”. Look at the context in which he made that statement. He was comparing Obama to other accomplished black people in politics who could possibly try to run for President. I think it’s safe to say that almost every single one, if not all of those people speak “grammatically proper English”. They just sound black as they do it. According to Reid’s “standard”, someone who sounds exactly like MLK wouldn’t make the cut.

True.

But do you fundamentally disagree with that argument?

I sure as hell don’t.  As has been pointed by Pam many times here… we just ain’t that “post-racial” yet.

Jesse Jackson speaks perfectly intelligible English.  As does Al Sharpton.  And their personal politics and demons aside, I think one of the biggest reasons neither of those men could ever become POTUS today is because they sound “too black” for most white people to be comfortable with.

I mean, look at many of the attacks against them… more often than not, it isn’t just their left-leaning positions being assailed by their critics, but their very blackness.  Even a lot of white people on the left who consistently vote Democratic feel uncomfortable by their mere presence in any situation.  I mean, consider what happened to Jesse Jackson when he was caught by a live mike on Fox News last year saying “I want to cut Barack’s nuts off.”  He was frustrated by Obama’s total unwillingness to passionately discuss issues relating to racial inequity on the campaign trail.  Truth be told, Obama didn’t talk about race more often because HE COULDN’T… not if he wanted to actually win the election.  And he knew that.  The one time he ever directly addressed the issue of race in America head-on was in response to the whole brouhaha over Rev. Jeremiah Wright in March 2008, when he knew he had to come out and say something, or it might have cost him the Democratic nomination.

Reid was an idiot for using the racially insensitive words “negro dialect”, but his observation in general wasn’t incorrect.  Sure, it makes us uncomfortable as hell to acknowledge that race relations haven’t progressed nearly as much as we sometimes want to tell ourselves.  We don’t like to hear that we white people aren’t quite as collectively tolerant as we want to give ourselves a pat on the back for being.  But the statement that Harry Reid made could have just as easily been by someone like Chris Rock, and we’d all be chuckling and nodding in complete agreement.  Rock wouldn’t have sounded like such a tool in saying it, but he basically could have said, “America ain’t ready to elect a president who is too black for white people to be comfortable with”, and everyone would agree with that argument.

There are a decent number of African-American politicians who still have no realistic prayer of ever being elected president, and that’s largely due to the fact that their blackness would be used against them by much of the white electorate.  Maxine Waters and Chaka Fattah both come to mind.  It isn’t just that their politics lean arguably more left than any of our recent presidents, it’s also that they “sound too black”.

Reid’s choice of words show that he is out of touch with what sort of language is publicly acceptable in 2010… but they also show that he isn’t completely naive to where we really are in terms of race relations today, Obama’s election notwithstanding.

Comment #97: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  11:54 AM

“Negro” isn’t great but at least it’s not referring to the President as “boy.”

Uhh, ok.  Let’s try that out…

“Barack Obama, the boy from Chicago who would become president.”

vs.

“Barack Obama, the negro from Chicago who would become president.”

Which sounds worse?  Obviously, both are offensive, but if you actually have to think for more than two seconds about which is more objectively offensive, then you’re a fucking moron.

Comment #98: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  12:00 PM

Semi-related to this…

Rod Blagojevich apparantly said, “I’m blacker than Barack Obama” in an interview with Esquire magazine.

Oh Lordy.

Comment #99: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  12:56 PM

Leading African-American scholar Michael Eric Dyson just had this to say about President Obama on MSNBC in regard to the whole Harry Reid fiasco:

“This president runs away from issues of race like a black man runs away from cops.”

FWIW, Dr. Dyson is a strong supporter of President Obama in general, but he’s frustrated by the fact that Obama has never really used his position to directly tackle issues of racial inequity that still exist in the United States today.

Most left-leaning African-American pundits I’ve heard talk about the Reid debacle seem to be saying that while Reid’s words were insensitive and poorly chosen, the gist of what he said wasn’t fundamentally untrue.

And to answer a point made above: no, unfortunately I don’t think someone like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. could get elected to the presidency of the United States today.  We ain’t there yet.

Like I said before… Barack Obama is the Tiger Woods of politics (Tiger Woods pre-Thanksgiving 2009, that is).

Comment #100: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  01:20 PM

I despair how much any real reform is going to be possible without campaign finance reform however.
When it costs a million (or a few million) to run for a job that pays a bit over $100K a year things are as upside down as many people’s mortgages.

This is, IMHO, half of the problem.

The other half isn’t term limits and it isn’t the age of the senators.  The other half of the problem is the lack of civic engagement by the public on political issues.  If people do not take the time to articulate and critique their own political values and goals, research the positions and records of their representatives, and then vote accordingly there will be no change. 

Neither term limits nor retirement ages would not solve the revolving door between the capital and K Street.  Even campaign finance reform will only go so far unless people are willing to pay attention to what their elected officials are doing.  They must then at a minimum* vote to reward or punish these officials.

* and voting is the absolute minimum when it comes to civic engagement.

Comment #101: Richard Goblin  on  01/11  at  02:01 PM

You’re right, the word “boy” is so much more offensive than the word “negro”.

You’re a fucking moron.

And as someone stated above, you’re being a dick.  A real smarmy and obnoxious one at that.

Comment #102: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  03:31 PM

I woulda said something like “black vernacular” or, if I wanted to emphasize accent and not other aspects of his diction, offered a specific example:  “He doesn’t sound like [Jesse, Ta-Nehisi, etc.].”  I too have only heard “ebonics” used by white racists in recent years. 

DTG, your argument in #116 is so persuasive!  Do try calling a young male adult African American “boy” and get back to me.

Comment #103: Josh  on  01/12  at  11:31 AM

Too bad for me that I come late to this conversation.

Some of you might be interested in this article by linguist John McWhorter. I suspect that the author might have taken for granted certain knowledge from his audience, but I thought it was excellent.

The article is further discussed in this post at Language Log.

Comment #104: Rhus  on  01/12  at  01:26 PM

Mandatory retirement at 65 in the Senate is about as dumb, short-sighted and prejudiced an idea as I’ve ever seen on this blog.  The following progressive-blocking, obstructionist, doddering Senators would be immediately dismissed:  Boxer, Feinstein, Dodd, Harkin, Mikulski, Kerry, Leahy and Rockefeller. 

How about a literacy test?  Or an IQ test?

How about recognizing that when your party is in control of the House that you don’t like how slow and obstructionist the Senate seems and when the other party is in control of the House you are highly grateful that the Senate wouldn’t pass right wing legislation.


Sheesh.

(IMO, Reid is not suddenly too stupid to lead.  I always thought he was.  But it doesn’t have anything to do with his age.)

Comment #105: MiddleageLiberal  on  01/13  at  05:55 PM
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