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Next entry: Catholic church strongarms org from hiring anti-Prop 8 priest Previous entry: Bet You Wish You Hadn’t Made All Those Lawyer Jokes Now, Eh?

On feeling ambivalent about reactionary dating advice

FeminismMoviesSex

Update: I want to make it clear that I’m not agreeing with the authors when they say never call, never initiate, never ask a man out.  They’re clearly going overboard. But just that it’s in your own self-interest not to continue pursuing anyone sending mixed signals. And that while the authors go overboard, there is that sliver of truth in there—-there’s so much pressure on women to pursue any lead, no matter how weak, because we’re told You Must Have A Man.

Okay, so there’s a movie coming out based on a dating advice manual that I blogged about irately and repeatedly when it came out, called He’s Just Not That Into You.  (Hat tip.)  Here’s the nauseating trailer of doom:

My working theory now is that reactionary romantic comedies are being deliberately cast with actresses who are appealing because they seem smart and independent, because women in the intended audience—-basically, bridal magazine subscribers who buy patriarchal bullshit hook, line, and sinker—-are still, like more feminist women, attracted (platonically) to intelligence and independence.  So it flatters women who have just submitted quietly to male domination.  Look, these movies say, even the sort of women you think of as role models lose their fucking minds over the mere possibility of wearing a white wedding dress!  So don’t feel guilty for your addiction to TLC programming!

They made a movie based on a dating guide.  Let that sink in.  Here’s an excerpt, if you’re interested.  The very existence of this book made me bananas when it came out, probably because it repackages the same old sexist dating advice and pretends that it’s empowering.  And, I think, the authors Greg Behrendt and Liz Tuccillo actually do like women and want women to be happy (which is not something I get off most dating advice, which seems more interesting in scolding women), which just makes the whole thing more painful.  People who mean well and fail are the most upsetting. But, at least from excerpts I’ve read, the book buys into the same assumptions that guide all reactionary dating advice, assumptions that are harmful to women:


1) That you should want to be married more than anything, and that this goal crowds out other career and social goals.
2) That women’s value is derived from men, and that therefore it’s understandable that you’re eager to get a guy, any guy, to couple up with you.
3) That women are desperate and clingy, but men have no real desire to marry or have relationships, which is the reason that there’s a power imbalance between men and women.  In reality, the power imbalance is due not to women’s greater desire for love, but because men simply have more power in a patriarchy.
4) That therefore the only reason a man will sacrifice his inherent desire to be single is because a woman bowls him over and he loses his senses.  It’s assumed that men would not start relationships unless their will has been compromised somehow.

That said, I really do think the authors mean well.  They accept that men have more power than women, and that this is unfair, which makes them more feminist than 99% of people writing dating advice out there.  And I think what really bothered me when I went on a blogging bonanza about this book is that part of me thinks that the pragmatic aspects of their advice aren’t wrong per se.  Some are—-it’s untrue that there’s no such thing as a man who puts off asking you out because he’s shy or his sense of propriety stops him.  I’ve had a lot of male friends who I’ve seen fall for a woman like crazy, but who couldn’t quite work up the courage to approach her.  Behrendt and Tuccillo puff up men to be these omnipotent beings who never suffer from mortal weaknesses like women, such as shyness, fear of loss, or fear of rejection.  They paint a world where men are so brave they wouldn’t hesitate to hit on an employer, even if it meant lost income.  I disagree with the “men are superhuman” premise of the book.

But, and this is what made me attracted/repulsed to it, I can’t help but think that it’s a good thing if women had some kind of coaching that pushed them away from being desperate or clingy.  Not that all women are, by a long shot, but our culture does admittedly condition women towards this behavior.  And who can blame them?  Every time you turn around, you’re hit with another variation of the message, “You’re nobody until a man—-any man—-chooses you.”  And who doesn’t want to be allowed into the human race?  With that sort of pressure, the more important issues regarding love—-such as, “Do you even like him?” and “Are you a good match?”—-become secondary.  Worse, that sort of cultural belief does reinforce the power imbalance, and men can use women’s desire for acceptance to flatter their own egos, even if they feel nothing for such women.  Anything you can do to get off the carousel of having your self esteem sucked dry to boost someone else’s is a good one, I suppose.  I’m pragmatic that way.  To add the layer of irony, the only realistic way to become the woman that gets that gaga attention from a man because he’s so infatuated with you is to be independent and interesting and send the message that you don’t need him.  Needy, clingy people who have low self-esteem who are motivated less by their own ideas and more by the desire for approval aren’t that attractive.  Getting into the habit of blowing off every single guy who even shows a modicum of waffling about your inherent awesomeness provides immediate results in improving your outlook, attractiveness, and it frees up your time for interesting hobbies.

It’s telling that the authors didn’t just come out and say, “Tell the heteronormative patriarchy to bite your butthole, and live your own life as if it’s worth something regardless of who you sleep with.”  No, in order to get even the smallest sliver of commonsense in, they had to hide it in an insult.  Mustn’t let women think too much of themselves, you know.  It’s not, “You’re too good to waste your time.”  It’s, “Assume that you’re rejected because you’re not that interesting until someone proves otherwise.” 

In a landscape where most dating advice is misogynist, this book sometimes seems like more than what it is, simply by not being misogynist.  The authors believe that women shouldn’t go to great lengths to change themselves to be acceptable to men.  They assume that people’s tastes differ, and if Guy A isn’t into you, that doesn’t mean Guy B won’t be.  This notion that people actually differ and dating is about making a match not verifying your absolute worth is a breath of fresh air.  Too bad it’s laden down with sexist assumptions.

What maybe made it hardest of all for me was that the book basically exposed what is a maddening paradox of being a modern straight woman who is interested in not hating herself—-being assertive and forward is generally a good thing, but for some reason, in dating, you run the strong risk of not empowering yourself, but humiliating yourself.  In all honesty, if I was giving advice to a female friend about dating, it wouldn’t necessarily be a lot different from what’s in this book.  Don’t sit by your phone.  If he doesn’t call you, forget about him, because he doesn’t like you.  If he’s not 110% into you, then he probably never will be, so if your heart’s into it, give up on him.  (Unlike the authors, I think women can be totally casual, too, and so I fail to see why a woman can’t use a guy for sex who is using her, too.)  If he can’t manage to ask you out, he’s not worth your time.  The second he waffles, drop him like a turd that landed in your hands, because this will end poorly.  The only man worth seeing is one who wants you so badly that he would never “forget” to call, who never makes you wait for him to pick you up for a date, whose responses to you are laden with an eager desire to be around you.  I’m not saying that it’s wrong to waste your time on men you just want to have sex with and not date seriously, but my experience strongly suggests that you shouldn’t give a sliver of your heart to anyone who has any feelings about you other than, “My god, she’s so awesome, when can I see her again?”  For your own protection.  Because dating as a straight woman means constantly engaging on a plane where you’re at a social disadvantage, and you have a right to protect yourself.

Is it un-feminist to say this to women?  I don’t think so.  Carving out independence and self esteem in a society that wishes to deprive you of these things isn’t an easy task.  We don’t live in the world we want.  We live in a world where a lot of men feel entitled to use women to boost their own egos, or who don’t have the knowledge or desire to shut down a desperate woman by telling her they just aren’t feeling it.  Women really must work hard not to be desperate, and if that means being overly strict about what you consider a lack of interest from a man, so be it.  But I feel guilty saying it.  I wish you could just tell women to behave as if the world was perfectly equal, and that would somehow make it that way.  But it’s not.

All this said, what little merit the book has due to good intentions doesn’t appear to manifest in the movie in any way.  I’m sure that reviews will come out soon that bolster this prediction. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:02 AM • (148) Comments

That’s great advice Amanda!  It sounds similar to what I’ve told people in the past: you won’t be able to find true happiness until you’re truly happy alone.  Some people never get there though.  Yes, it is very hard to see past the messages “all women want is to be married.”  Once you accept your life is not defined through someone else’s, you are much, much happier.

Comment #1: Unstable Isotope  on  01/28  at  11:18 AM

Long ago, mom made me read The Rules, which is guaranteed to drive any liberated woman nuts.  I got the message of “you can’t call him because you’ll chase him away.  You may only sit at home and hope he calls you”.

When He’s just not that into you came out, I enjoyed it much more.  It follows the same basic rules as The Rules, but the message I got out of it was “You’re too important and busy to be coaxing Mr. Wrong into being Mr. Marrying Type.”  That being said, it’s certainly frustrating that a woman has to wait for the guy to make the first move: if I’m into a guy, I want him to know.  Still, when I met my current husband, he certainly announced his interest by calling me the very next day and practically begging to be invited to my apartment.  So in a way, though the book packaged the same rules that drove me nuts the first time, it worked well for me. 

Take this with a grain of salt.  For every woman that testifies the book worked, there will be another that says she called the guy and everything worked out anyways.  But I did like that the book acknowledged that you might actually have A Life and to stop wasting time chasing guys that are too cowardly to tell you straight out that they’re not interested.

Comment #2: Mrs. W  on  01/28  at  11:37 AM

“nauseating trailer of doom” ?  Are you kidding me?  Who here doesn’t relate to the dating troubles of Ben Affleck and Jennifer Aniston and Scarlett johansson…?  Ack!

Comment #3: Soil Creep  on  01/28  at  11:41 AM

I’m in agreement with the notion that when people - gay, straight, male and female - aren’t interested in someone who may be/is interested in them, the non-interested party should communicate how she or he feels.  It’s not always easy to do, and sometimes you end up feeling like shit, but it’s better to do that than string someone along.

That said…

...but my experience strongly suggests that you shouldn’t give a sliver of your heart to anyone who has any feelings about you other than, “My god, she’s so awesome, when can I see her again?” For your own protection.  Because dating as a straight woman means constantly engaging on a plane where you’re at a social disadvantage, and you have a right to protect yourself.

Thing is, as a straight guy, I’ve gotten somewhat conflicting advice that such a feeling would be evidence that I was “trying too hard” and therefore desperate.  It’s a fine line.

Comment #4: Linnaeus  on  01/28  at  11:51 AM

I have a problem with the premise of *any* dating manual that suggests that women should play coy. A great deal of what’s wrong with modern dating is that women feel like they *can’t* put themselves out and risk rejection.

My feeling is—if a man bowls *you* over, ask him out. If he’s the right guy for you, he’ll be flattered, impressed by your strength, and he’ll think that’s totally hot, and he’ll fall for you too. If he’s not the right guy for you, he’ll be put off by it, think you’re desperate, and either try to use you or blow you off.  If he blows you off, you’re done. Don’t pursue any further. If he tries to use you, watch for that and don’t let infatuation blind you to him using you (or, more precisely, because infatuation *will* blind you, don’t let him change your life in any significant way until infatuation wears off and you can see more clearly. Don’t move to be with him, don’t break your lease to move in with him, don’t marry him, don’t have kids with him, and for the love of God don’t give up your friendships for him.) If he’s just using you, you’ll figure it out quick enough.

(Of course, it’s possible that a guy who isn’t right for you—because, say, he likes a kink you don’t, or doesn’t like a kink you do, or he listens to music that you absolutely can’t stand, or some other fairly minor yet deal-breaking quirk you won’t find out until you date him—might still have the appropriate reaction, and think your assertiveness is totally hot. Watch for that, too. But that’s true no matter who asked who.)

Men are trained, very heavily, by society that they *should* be fiercely independent, that they *should* reject female neediness, but the fact is that they need women just as much as women need men (actually, the truth is, they need us more. Studies have shown that while female finances plunge after divorce, male happiness takes just as deep a dive… possibly because women confide in each other, so the loss of your man isn’t the loss of the only person you could talk to about your feelings, but men are trained to *only* do that with women they’re sleeping with if they’re going to do it at all, so losing one’s wife, for a man, is the loss of the only emotional confidante they had.) And many, many men wish they didn’t have to be the ones to put themselves out front all the time.  There are lots of great shy men who won’t be able to bring themselves to make the first move, but could be wonderful boyfriends to a woman who made the move on *them*.

Also, asking men out yourself reduces your vulnerability to predators. Nothing can ever *completely* eliminate your risk, but men who are looking for women to date rape or abuse or dominate won’t have any trouble hitting on the women they’ve targeted. If you’re the one who hits on the guy, then he probably hasn’t targeted you to torture to make himself feel better.

Comment #5: Alara J Rogers  on  01/28  at  11:56 AM

I’m in agreement with the notion that when people - gay, straight, male and female - aren’t interested in someone who may be/is interested in them, the non-interested party should communicate how she or he feels.

Yes, but there are some unspoken traditions/signals that communicate interest/non-interest so that no one has to go through the burden/embarrassment of communicating your feelings to someone you’ve only been on one or two dates with. These are good things, because, like rules of etiquette, they’re a form of social lubricant for the gears of human interaction.

Things like He’s Just Not That Into You appear to me to be guides to help women understand those unspoken signals.

Comment #6: Tyro  on  01/28  at  12:01 PM

I am suspicious of any dating advice that doesn’t account for people of both genders being humans with complex emotions and inner lives.  realizing that men were not demi-gods controlling my romantic aspirations, but humans who might be uncertain or fear rejection changed my dating life and expectations in great ways.  As I get older, I have less patience for waffling and find myself delivering advice as you do, but I think we both do out of a respect for women’s humanity and lack of need for coupling to be valuable.  Why can’t dating manuals consider men and women as real humans?

Comment #7: bethany  on  01/28  at  12:02 PM

Of course, the Rule many guys are taught is “If you’re totally blown away by her awesomeness, insult her and be sorta nasty, because otherwise she’s going to use your infatuation to make your life miserable.”  Because, y’know, relationships are about who wins and gets their way.

Comment #8: paul  on  01/28  at  12:06 PM

Getting into the habit of blowing off every single guy who even shows a modicum of waffling about your inherent awesomeness provides immediate results in improving your outlook, attractiveness, and it frees up your time for interesting hobbies.

O.K., but what if a lack of confidence is not letting your inherent awesomeness show through.  I have a friend who has kind of slipped into a funk since her last long-term relationship ended almost two years ago.  She complains about how no guys seem to be approaching her, but she is not really trying to show her best side or get out among the people.  In addition, she pooh poohs the notion that she might benefit from a casual or “transitional” FWB kind of relationship and is only interested if it is going to be a deep and meaningful BIG DEAL.  Personally, I think that if a guy were to show, even somewhat waffly interest, she would be better advised to, as Amanda says:

...use a guy for sex who is using her, too.

Comment #9: Randomizer  on  01/28  at  12:13 PM

men have no real desire to marry or have relationships

I need to introduce these people to some of my divorced guy friends.  A lot of these guys keep getting into stupid relationships, just because they are desperate to be in a relationship and want to get married again.  Probably explains why so many men subscribe to those dating services, as well.

Comment #10: DrDick  on  01/28  at  12:16 PM

Agreed with Alara J. Rogers.  If you want to date a guy, ask him out.  If he says yes, yay.  If he says no, move on.  This cuts through the game-playing Rules bullshit, and also cuts through the whole situation of having to wonder if he likes you or if he’s just shy.  If it’s just that he’s shy, he’ll say yes when you ask him out.  If he’s not that into you, he’ll say no, or make an excuse.  At worst, you go on one date, and then he doesn’t call back, and then you move on.

ASKING HIM OUT is a much simpler solution to the problem than waiting to see if he asks you out and assuming he’s not into you if he doesn’t.

The whole “you have to wait for him to call and ask you out because otherwise you won’t know if he REALLY likes you” is just exactly the same freaking thing as “you have to wait for him to propose because otherwise you won’t know if he REALLY wants to get married.”  It makes my head explode.

Comment #11: snowmentality  on  01/28  at  12:27 PM

or every woman that testifies the book worked, there will be another that says she called the guy and everything worked out anyways.

Well, obviously they’re taking it way too far.  Not calling is stupid.  But make one phone call, and do not follow up.  If he doesn’t return it in 24 hours, mentally write him off.  Even when guys would call a couple days later, I felt like they’d already sent the signal—-they want sex, a way to waste time, but obviously they weren’t ever going to be a boyfriend of any sort, so I didn’t invest anything in them besides having fun, if I was in the mood.

Frankly, the existence of email has made it even easier to know when you’re getting blown off.  If your email box and your phone show no signs that he can’t wait to see you again, give up on him. There’s nothing that breaks my heart more than a woman who wants it so bad she clings to illusions.  There’s so much pressure to be coupled up, that no matter how feminist you are, you feel it at times.  Guarding yourself against it is just, in my mind, sanity preservation.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:28 PM

oh noooo, we’re heading into the territory of “men have more social power (less at risk) and so should take more responsibility for initiating….”

Comment #13: Randomizer  on  01/28  at  12:30 PM

My feeling is—if a man bowls *you* over, ask him out. If he’s the right guy for you, he’ll be flattered, impressed by your strength, and he’ll think that’s totally hot, and he’ll fall for you too.

I don’t disagree.  I hope it didn’t come across that way.  Obviously, this book goes overboard. 

But I would say to any woman who did this, if he seems anything less than stoked, then it’s going nowhere.  Go out with him and have fun, but know it’s going nowhere.

I don’t agree with the authors’ extremism, but it’s not completely untrue that if you’re desperate, a lot of people will string you along for sex and to waste time, but drop you like a hot potato the second someone they really want comes into the picture.  I guess both men and women suffer from this problem, but women seem to want the advice more, probably because we’re under so much pressure to get a guy.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:30 PM

Studies have shown that while female finances plunge after divorce, male happiness takes just as deep a dive… possibly because women confide in each other, so the loss of your man isn’t the loss of the only person you could talk to about your feelings, but men are trained to *only* do that with women they’re sleeping with if they’re going to do it at all, so losing one’s wife, for a man, is the loss of the only emotional confidante they had.

I’ve seen this happen in person, and frankly I think that this is what fuels a lot of the bitterness that produces the MRA movement.  But becoming depressed because you miss your wife is emasculating for men who are invested in gender roles, and so they repackage their feelings as anger over finances, etc. instead of going into therapy and dealing.  The victims end up being their children, who are used as pawns to punish the ex-wife.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:34 PM

All so goal-oriented. There’s a huge middle ground between “just” (ahem) using each other for sex and being in a Deep Important Relationship. Plenty of people go out regularly with the same person, in relationships where sex is only one component, without any thought that This Is The One.

Of course they’re probably not the people at whom one would target dating manuals.

Comment #16: paul  on  01/28  at  12:38 PM

” If he doesn’t return it in 24 hours, mentally write him off.  Even when guys would call a couple days later, I felt like they’d already sent the signal”

The problem is a number of men think that calling within 24 hours is a sign of stalking and that a few days is best to determine if another date should take place.

Comment #17: tootiredoftheright  on  01/28  at  12:38 PM

This book annoyed me more than “The Rules” as, like you said Amanda, it seems to want to be helpful (but fails) where The Rules was just condescending, baseless, nonsense. I always said I wanted to write a retort book for “He’s Just Not That Into You” entitled “Then Grow a Pair and Say So.” Men continue to get a free pass when it comes to not being up front or honest with women and think it’s OK to ignore someone until she goes away. Many women are not blameless when it comes to missing some very obvious clues (and demanding better treatment) but it still irritates me and the cycle is perpetuated because of the silly, disingenuous dating games these books (and society) encourage.

For the record, I met my fiance online and was the first to make contact. Preaching to the choir on this site, but it IS all a total load of bunk. Being honest about who you are and knowing what you want will net you the desired result, whether or not that means finding a mate. It’s not a requirement to being a happy, productive individual.

Comment #18: TexasKaren  on  01/28  at  12:40 PM

I dunno, I do think that the book had one valuable message:  you can’t make someone love you, so no amount of “Rules”-style manipulation is going to create an emotion that isn’t there.  Either he really likes you or he doesn’t, and if he doesn’t, don’t waste your time.  (Which is, not incidentally, good advice for guys, too.  I went out on a second date with my now-husband the day after I had massive food poisoning and was still feeling pretty queasy because I really wanted to see him.)

That’s a pretty radical message, which is probably one reason they had to gussy it up with all of the other crap advice.

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  01/28  at  12:42 PM

Of course, the Rule many guys are taught is “If you’re totally blown away by her awesomeness, insult her and be sorta nasty, because otherwise she’s going to use your infatuation to make your life miserable.”

PHMT.  (Patriarchy hurts men, too.)  The only men I know who are happy with their relationships are the ones who got past this.  If you “beat” her and get her to accept a relationship where you constantly show your dominance and she shudders under it, you’ll lose all respect for her and won’t like her anymore. Most famous example: John Lennon, who moved on from a miserable marriage based on this dominance model to an egalitarian one that made him happy.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:44 PM

But make one phone call, and do not follow up. If he doesn’t return it in 24 hours, mentally write him off.  Even when guys would call a couple days later, I felt like they’d already sent the signal

Taking into account tootireoftheright’s statement about men generally feeling that calling back within 24 hours might be taken the wrong way, this advice is basically good: because guys go through a “I wonder if she’s just not that into me” line of thought as well. If a woman calls a guy after a date because she really likes him, the guy suddenly knows that the entire endeavor is going to be worth his while.

Comment #21: Tyro  on  01/28  at  12:44 PM

Confession - I kinda sorta don’t hate the overarching concept of the book He’s Just Not That Into You.  Mainly because I personally have a tendency to get involved with people who are emotionally unavailable, have different goals for the relationship than I do, etc.  I also get bad crushes on people who are NEVER GOING TO GO OUT WITH ME EVER, and refuse to be honest with myself about this. 

I kind of need to develop a ruthlessly self-aware streak that is able to say, “hey, um, this guy you’ve been flirting with for 6 months but who’s never so much as asked for your number?  HE’S NOT INTERESTED.  MOVE ON,” or “this guy who loves sex with you, but doesn’t know your birthday?  Probably not serious relationship material, so don’t get hung up about that kind of thing with him.”  So the book is “right” in that regard. 

But I do hate the LTR focus of it, and how if you’re sleeping with someone, and things aren’t “developing”, this is a bad thing. I also think there’s a little bit of stealth recycling from The Rules, especially the emphasis on avoiding taking an active role in pursuing someone, because obviously any guy who would touch you with a ten foot pole would be all over you within 30 seconds of setting eyes on you, and if he doesn’t, you have no chance, so why bother.

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  12:47 PM

Randomizer, your friend might benefit from some casual sex and fun, but not until she believes it, I’d guess.  I think there’s nothing wrong with either men or women dating for the fun of it, enjoying flirting and casual sex.  You’re right—-it can be a huge boost to your self esteem if you don’t let yourself get attached to guys who are not and will never be attached to you.  Maybe if you phrase it that way?

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:50 PM

Men continue to get a free pass when it comes to not being up front or honest with women and think it’s OK to ignore someone until she goes away.

Women do this, too, and that’s totally ok. Women will dodge men’s calls or come up with excuses why they can’t make a date, and that’s generally regarded as a signal that the woman isn’t that interested.

frankly I think that this is what fuels a lot of the bitterness that produces the MRA movement.  But becoming depressed because you miss your wife is emasculating for men who are invested in gender roles, and so they repackage their feelings as anger over finances, etc. instead of going into therapy and dealing.

I became much more at peace with myself and my dealings with women when I accepted that I actually like being in a relationship and am much happier that way and that it was just a matter of meeting the right person and that this was something I actually wanted. Weird, I know, but it took me a while to figure this out.

Comment #24: Tyro  on  01/28  at  12:54 PM

There’s a huge middle ground between “just” (ahem) using each other for sex and being in a Deep Important Relationship.

I think younger people these days actually get this more than previous generations.  Thus the Friends With Benefits category, and hooking up.  Of course, that’s true of Gen Xers in more urban environments, too.  And I’m definitely a beneficiary of that.  But it is nice to have a boyfriend, and I’m not going to bash someone for wanting that.  I would tell them to hang out and have fun and date a lot of guys, but simply don’t give your heart to someone who isn’t all over you.  I’ve definitely had FWB situations that I thought could evolve into something more, but you know what?  They never, ever did.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  12:55 PM

“Of course, the Rule many guys are taught is “If you’re totally blown away by her awesomeness, insult her and be sorta nasty, because otherwise she’s going to use your infatuation to make your life miserable.”

Word on this and on PHMT.  One of the worst bits of conditioning that girls/women get is to think of emotional boundaries as lines to be breached rather than things which must be respected.  They are often brainwashed into thinking that if they are let through one door then they must naturally move to the next one, get him to let you in, then the next, repeat the process ... and so on and so on,because that’s how relationships “progress” and become more important.  That’s destructive nonsense in so many ways, not least of which is it puts the responsibility solely on women for developing the emotional intimacy.  I’ve known a lot of acquaintances and clients and friends who simply never unlock the first doors because they’re terrified of the inevitable demands to to go through the others.  Word of advice?  Male or female, if your romantic partner has boundaries, respect ‘em.  If it’s working, then they’ll invite you through.  If it ain’t then you move on.  It sucks for both you and him if you get out the bloody jemmy and start forcing your way through, or guilting him into unlocking doors that he doesn’t want—or isn’t ready—to open.

Which naturally brings us to the whole FWB and adult relationship thing.  I can’t speak for others but I’ve always hated—and found immature and limited—the societal / entertainment/ metaculture notion that EVERY relationship is a progressive, linear one starting at DATE! and ending in LIFELONG COMMITMENT!  Sometimes just being lovers or being FWB or some variant thereon can provide all the romantic/sexual happiness that people need, and it doesn’t have the corresponding disadvantage of being in each other’s bloody hip pocket all the time.  Excessive proximity is often a real relationship-killer.

/rant

Comment #26: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  12:56 PM

tootired, I’ve heard that.  But it’s never actually been the case in my experience.  I’ve never had a guy who actually liked me wait more than a day to email or call.  I don’t think it’s been 24 whole hours even—-usually you go out once in the evening, and I had a phone message or email from him by mid-afternoon the next day if he was super into me.  Every single time. 

Obviously, people have to work and may not have time during the day to get back to you.  But I’ve had a few boyfriends and I’ve had a lot of male friends, and I’ve never even caught a whiff that any have believed anything but, “Call her the next day if you want her to know you really like her.”

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  01:00 PM

Tyro, that’s fair but more often than not, it’s women who get flack for not taking the hint. This book isn’t telling YOU (the collective you, not you personally) to take the hint and stop being so clueless. Women get called “psycho” or “needy” if they miss the signs and pursue a guy while men who pursue a woman ardently are just doing what society expects of them. I’m not trying to place blame, as I said, none of us are blameless. But, society does tend to punish women a bit more than men when it comes to dating faux pas.

Comment #28: TexasKaren  on  01/28  at  01:03 PM

Weird.
I’ve seen Greg Berhendt’s standup act, and it was pretty clear that he wrote He’s Just Not That Into You as a tongue in cheek response to The Rules, et al. He told the story of getting the idea for the book when one of his female co-workers was recounting her miserable experiences with the guy she was dating, with all the games and signals and “rules”. His response to her was “Well, maybe he’s just not that into you.” 

I don’t know about the co-author or the publisher, but it seemed like the book was addressing women who had bought into the BS and giving them a step out rather than trying to get all other women to buy into it.

Comment #29: Dorothy  on  01/28  at  01:05 PM

I have a friend who has kind of slipped into a funk since her last long-term relationship ended almost two years ago.  She complains about how no guys seem to be approaching her, but she is not really trying to show her best side or get out among the people.

I’ve been in this situation before, and my advice would be that the thing you need to realize when you find yourself there is that there’s more to life than being in a relationship.  Pull yourself out of your funk by enjoying the rest of your life, not by waiting around for a man.  Happy people are a lot more attractive than miserable people.  Find a hobby.  Take a class.  Set a goal.  Do something fun that will cause you to enjoy yourself on your own terms. 

Even if you don’t “meet someone”, you’ll still be happy and have fun and feel more fulfilled.  And it’s hard to argue with that.

Comment #30: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  01:08 PM

“Weird, I know, but it took me a while to figure this out. “

this doesn’t strike me as “weird” at all.  There’s the (totally bogus, btw) romantic notion the “loner” dude who just doesn’t need anyone - least of all women.  Mr. Lee refers to it as the Wanna-be Clint Eastwood syndrome.  It makes sense then that guys might take a while to realize that’s not what they want (if it isn’t), given all the constant pressure.

Comment #31: Gypsy Lee  on  01/28  at  01:08 PM

Yeah, I guess that’s what I’m saying, Dorothy. It’s obvious to me that Berhendt actually means well.  That’s what makes the inevitable sexism more painful.  Because I don’t think he’s wrong to give the advice of not giving your heart to someone who is never going to reciprocate.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  01:08 PM

But I’ve had a few boyfriends and I’ve had a lot of male friends, and I’ve never even caught a whiff that any have believed anything but, “Call her the next day if you want her to know you really like her.”

You see, this is the kind of useful stuff I learn here. I was always under the impression that calling back within 24 hours labelled you as desperately clingy and needy. However, I know jack shit about dating…

How the hell do people learn this stuff?

Comment #33: Dunc  on  01/28  at  01:13 PM

Completely agreed on the “make a phone call and if he doesn’t return it, move on” situation.  The only thing that really irritates me about the book is the “Don’t ever ever call a guy” business.  That’s what moves it from good advice to annoying.

It’s funny, because I have seen a lot more guy friends go through the whole “Does she like me or doesn’t she, will she call, I am going to sit by the phone” business than I’ve seen women.  Maybe I just hang out with a different kind of guy.  (Yes, a lot of them have done Nice Guy time.  Nice Guys need a “She’s Just Not That Into You, And No, She Doesn’t Have To Date You Anyway.”)

PERSONAL ANECDOTE TIME.  The guy who’s now my fiance is honestly pretty shy.  We didn’t have a standard “ask on a date” relationship progression—we started hanging out in a group, then one-on-one (not datey dates, literally just chilling out watching TV), then decided to be a couple.  I called him up to hang out one-on-one the first time, and I initiated the conversation about whether we were a couple (which he answered by kissing me, awww).  In between, it was clear that he was really into spending time with me, and would call me up to hang out too.  I think that’s the key—it was obvious that he was excited about me, although he’s not an aggressor/pursuer type in relationships.

Of course I also proposed to him eight years later, so by some dating books’ standards, I clearly fail.  He clearly never wanted to be with me and doesn’t really want to marry me, or he would have asked me on a datey date the first week of college and would have proposed within 6 months.

By my standards I think we pretty much win, though.

Comment #34: snowmentality  on  01/28  at  01:19 PM

I have not read the book, nor do I expect to see the movie. 

I agree in principle with firmly rejecting someone who is interested in you but not the reverse.  However, my personal experience as the rejectee leads me to think it has to be done very carefully or else it may backfire.  Even though I’ve moved on, am married with children, and am happy with my life (especially my kids!), I sort of feel that had she (the rejector) just quickly dated me and then dumped me I might not still be harboring feelings for her fifteen years later.  The fact that she’s a part of my social circle I’m sure keeps my feelings alive.

I’m not saying she should have done that!  I’m just saying had it happened that way perhaps I wouldn’t still pine for her regularly.  How do you reject a friend’s romantic feelings without ending the friendship?

Comment #35: Lefty  on  01/28  at  01:24 PM

I can’t help but read the advice here as “men aren’t superhuman, but that should still be the standard by which we judge them.”  (In that uncertainty, shyness, being made to feel subhuman if one can’t find a partner, etc. is all acknowledged and then promptly discarded.)

The comments pretty much confirm my suspicions that “the grass always looks greener on the other side”; gendered dating roles and “power grab” relationship analyses suck for just about everyone.

Comment #36: jfpbookworm  on  01/28  at  01:33 PM

You see, this is the kind of useful stuff I learn here. I was always under the impression that calling back within 24 hours labelled you as desperately clingy and needy. However, I know jack shit about dating…

I dunno, I’m in your camp.  I don’t call The Very Next Day after getting someone’s number, and don’t expect a call the very next day if I give my number.  If I meet someone and give them my number, I feel like if I hear from them, cool, if not, whatever.  It’s way too soon to get worked up about.  Even if I really, really liked them.

Comment #37: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  01:38 PM

Dunc, I don’t think it’s a secret that you learn.  I honestly think men I’ve known took advantage of the male privilege of not overthinking this.  They want the woman, they let her know, and if she’s down, she’ll respond eagerly.  I jokingly call it acting like you’re a white guy.  It seems to me that women might be better served by it—-if you want to call a guy, do, but take rejection in stride, and see rejection when it’s there, even if you don’t want to see it.  Which is the good advice this book has, though there’s too much noise around it. 

My dating life got a million times easier and more fun when I realized that being rejected ain’t no thing.  In fact, practicing it is probably good.  After you’ve had a couple guys not call back or wait too long to call back, you begin to realize it’s not a statement on your inherent worth, but just that it’s not a match.  I got to a point where I was relieved when some guy wouldn’t call for 3 days, because then I’d know okay, I have a date for Friday night and it’ll be fun, but I can safely write him off as anything more than fun.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  01:39 PM

Lefty, I think in cases where friendships turn to one person pining and the other rejecting, you have to put the friendship on hold until the piner really, truly gets over it.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  01:42 PM

I realized that there is an inherent flaw in my experience-based advice—-I’m attracted to alpha dogs as lovers and friends, and so lack of confidence hasn’t really entered into my equation.  If someone is a boisterous loudmouth, rest assured I’ll be standing there giggling as he or she carries on.  With rare exceptions, these are folks who see no gap between wanting and asking, but if you’re shy, that might make it harder to pick up a phone the afternoon after a date and ask for another one.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  01:48 PM

Not being a 30- or 40-something woman, I’m not the target market for these self-help books. But goodness knows, I dated enough women to see the results: a culture of desperation and game-playing one-upsmanship. This was especially sad to see in NYC, where the women I dated were usually very accomplished and confident.

It’s as if the Human Resources Culture that infects America’s corporations isn’t content to wreck people’s work lives, but is pushing its way into personal lives, too via the MSM. I suppose this “He’s Not Into You” book is a tonic in that it offers women a way to opt out and cut losses, but it still operates in the bogus fairy-tale context that seeker describes @10:56AM. If I recall correctly, one of both of this book’s authors were involved in the production of Sex and the City, which also tried to have its (wedding) cake and eat it, too.

Thus the Friends With Benefits category, and hooking up.  Of course, that’s true of Gen Xers in more urban environments, too.  And I’m definitely a beneficiary of that.  But it is nice to have a boyfriend, and I’m not going to bash someone for wanting that.

Agreed. I’ve been going the FWB route for a long time now, and (after some initial trial and error) it works for me. But I realise most people want a BF/GF, and that’s just fine, too. The problem is the aura of despair and drama that makes dating such a needlessly miserable and stressful experience.

A lot of these guys keep getting into stupid relationships, just because they are desperate to be in a relationship and want to get married again.

Forget the divorced guy friends, you should see some of the ones who are sticking it out in horrible marriages for the same reason.

How the hell do people learn this stuff?

Just think in terms of common courtesy and honesty and respect for others’ time. For example, if I have a good first date, I just drop her an e-mail the next day saying I enjoyed the evening and hope we can have another one. If she responds positively, great; if not, c’est la vie—life’s too short, and there are too many attractive, smart and confident women out there to start stressing over this stuff.

Comment #41: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  01:57 PM

Amanda, that might explain something - I overthink everything. wink

Comment #42: Dunc  on  01/28  at  01:58 PM

“..but my experience strongly suggests that you shouldn’t give a sliver of your heart to anyone who has any feelings about you other than, “My god, she’s so awesome, when can I see her again?” For your own protection.  Because dating as a straight woman means constantly engaging on a plane where you’re at a social disadvantage, and you have a right to protect yourself.”

Thing is, as a straight guy, I’ve gotten somewhat conflicting advice that such a feeling would be evidence that I was “trying too hard” and therefore desperate.  It’s a fine line.

Agreed.  I’ve overheard many female colleagues who snarked about how guys who did this had the “scent of desperation” hanging over them while male colleagues joined in the snarkfest by dismissing them as overeager idiots who revealed their “weakness” of being really into the women they were dating. 

“ If he doesn’t return it in 24 hours, mentally write him off.  Even when guys would call a couple days later, I felt like they’d already sent the signal”

The problem is a number of men think that calling within 24 hours is a sign of stalking and that a few days is best to determine if another date should take place.

There are also some “dating guides” which state that calling so soon after a date…especially at the beginning of a relationship is a rank sign of deep insecurity, desperation, and overeagerness.  48-72 hours were the maximum time benchmarks I’ve seen from those “guides” from what I’ve heard from many colleagues. 

Women do this, too, and that’s totally ok. Women will dodge men’s calls or come up with excuses why they can’t make a date, and that’s generally regarded as a signal that the woman isn’t that interested.

Had someone pull this on me after an only date several years back.  Felt really angry about the duplicity at the time until a college classmate asked me straight-out “Do you really want a relationship with someone who refuses to be straight and honest with you?” She also followed that up by saying that I was lucky to have dodged a bullet in that regard.

Comment #43: exholt  on  01/28  at  02:00 PM

I have seen a lot more guy friends go through the whole “Does she like me or doesn’t she, will she call, I am going to sit by the phone” business than I’ve seen women.  Maybe I just hang out with a different kind of guy.

Yeah - to me the part where I have to watch out is not the Who Makes The First Call thing, it’s the part where I start to notice that I’m the one who initiates every single thing, every single time.  I call him, every time.  I make every plan for every date.  I remember every social occasion, while he drops the ball on birthdays, holidays, etc. Every Single Goddamn Time.  I get involved with his life outside the relationship, while he barely knows what I do for a living or how many siblings I have.  He always makes excuses not to hang out with my friends or be there for my “stuff” (performances, openings, wrap parties…).  That’s the point where I need to realize he’s “just not that into me”. 

It has nothing to do with who called who first.

Comment #44: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  02:03 PM

I realized that there is an inherent flaw in my experience-based advice—-I’m attracted to alpha dogs as lovers and friends, and so lack of confidence hasn’t really entered into my equation.

I don’t know if the flaw is quite there, because you seem to be talking more about extroverts (“boisterous loudmouth,” “no gap between wanting and asking”) than alphas. And even so, confidence is a more neutral characteristic that comes more from being comfortable in one’s own skin. Unfortunately, a large part of popular culture is devoted to ensuring the opposite—for both genders.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  02:07 PM

Well, I liked “he’s just not that into you.” I thought it was screamingly funny and kind of important. Because, and this is just my take on it, I feel like many people I know (male and female) don’t have a good, natural, idea of how they should be treated by potential mates. The book doesn’t say *everyone* needs a mate, or every woman, but just if that is where you are putting your energy try to figure out that special rules don’t apply to mates. That is—its not the case that “love never means having to say you are sorry.”  People who screw you over, throw up in your bed, stand you up, treat you badly in fact are trying to tell you something that you are just refusing to listen to. In that way I put it right up there with “the gift of fear” as a book that actually tells women (and men if they read it from a female perspective) to trust your instincts and your right to be treated like a human being. Don’t put up with shit because maybe X is “Mr. Right.”  By definition, if he treats you a certain way, he’s mister wrong.

aimai

Comment #46: aimai  on  01/28  at  02:10 PM

you seem to be talking more about extroverts (“boisterous loudmouth,” “no gap between wanting and asking”) than alphas.

Gracchus, that’s an insult to extroverts, because they’re not all “boisterous loudmouth[s].” But Amanda’s comment does actually help us gain a better understanding of where she’s coming from with respect to these matters.

Comment #47: Tyro  on  01/28  at  02:10 PM

This blog post is a firm reminder of how bad some women have it, which is why the crumbs of self-respect this book offers were sucked up like it was chocolate cake presented to someone who hasn’t eaten in a weeks.  Obviously, the men on this show are an extreme, but I think it’s a good illustration of how women are conditioned to be very desperate, and to put up with all sorts of abusive treatment in order to hang onto a man, because being single is just that terrible a fate.  The woman in the video whose boyfriend brags about having trained her to be his maid for free accepts a proposal of marriage from him, and why?  They clearly hate each other, but she is just that disempowered. 

Most women aren’t in that low a place, but we’re affected by similar cultural pressures, and I really do think in its own fucked up way, there was a semblance of trying to address that in this book.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  02:11 PM

“Do you really want a relationship with someone who refuses to be straight and honest with you?”

Then again, do you really want a relationship with someone who doesn’t do nuance well and has to spell Every Single Thing out, Every Single Time, and who potentially cannot understand the nuances you send in their direction?

If we go out on one date and I didn’t have a good time, I’m much more likely to simply never be available ever again and/or stop returning calls than I am to say, “you know, I think you’re a boring twit with bad taste in music, and you’re an awful kisser to boot!”  Because that’s just rude.  And I know that I would be hurt if I got the latter rather than the former.  I know what it means when someone doesn’t call back or repeatedly dodges invitations.  I don’t need the exact nature of their disinterest explained.

I guess this is just one of those mutual compatibility issues.

Comment #49: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  02:15 PM

Had someone pull this on me after an only [one?] date several years back.  Felt really angry about the duplicity at the time until a college classmate asked me straight-out “Do you really want a relationship with someone who refuses to be straight and honest with you?” She also followed that up by saying that I was lucky to have dodged a bullet in that regard.

In other news, people aren’t always “doing well” when asked “How are you?”, they don’t actually like your dress, and that son of a friend of the family does not actually want your daughter’s phone number.

There are certain levels of politeness, and one of those is simply not using a single date as an excuse to have an emotional conversation about why someone really isn’t interested. We are expected to acknowledge these statements of being “too busy”, etc. as statements that the person doesn’t have a continued interest. And that’s ok. Yes, I have been frustrated when I woman I met held my elbow and pressed her number into my hand only to later blow me off when asked for a date, but these things happen and situations change even in the few days between after you’ve met someone. It’s not a statement of your inherent worth, and it’s not even a statement about his/her inherent worth, either.

Comment #50: Tyro  on  01/28  at  02:23 PM

Gracchus, that’s an insult to extroverts, because they’re not all “boisterous loudmouth[s].”

Please, I understand that. My point was that those who are “boisterous loudmouth(s)” (to use Amanda’s term) are also extroverts (but not necessarily alphas).

Comment #51: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  02:24 PM

I’m with Dorothy: I thought I recognized the name; Behrendt is an old-school alternative comedian who was with Margaret Cho, Janeane Garofalo, and the Mr. Show crew (he was roomies with David Cross back in the day and has a few cameo appearances). I don’t know about his writing partner, but I’m guessing that the book has to be at least partly subversive relative to the Modern Bride dreck out there.

Comment #52: norbizness  on  01/28  at  02:39 PM

Tyro, I guess I have a bit of trouble with the idea of a honesty equating to an “emotional” conversation. As someone who did not take this sort of thing to heart (and you’re right, it IS NOT a measure of the worth of either party), I expected more than I usually got with regard to courtesy and straightforwardness. I always told people I was not interested in a second date if I was not and was always a bit flummoxed when I was told someone would call me if they were not going to do so. My life doesn’t end if you don’t call, I promise. So, why bother? You’re not doing me any favors and I resent anyone thinking they need to “shield” me from such woeful rejection.

Maybe that’s what is at the core of ALL of this. If we all stopped playing games and making assumptions, it would all be considerably easier. And, echoing the comments of several other posters, I learned along the way that almost without exception, a guy will QUICKLY call you if he is interested.

Comment #53: TexasKaren  on  01/28  at  02:39 PM

As for the movie-ization, the director of License to Wed meets the writers whose last real credit was Never Been Kissed 10 years ago, AND with Ben Assface? Count me the fuck in!

Comment #54: norbizness  on  01/28  at  02:41 PM

If we go out on one date and I didn’t have a good time, I’m much more likely to simply never be available ever again and/or stop returning calls than I am to say, “you know, I think you’re a boring twit with bad taste in music, and you’re an awful kisser to boot!”

There’s a middle ground. I get that you’re exaggerating for comic effect, but saying something like “I don’t think we’re a good match” or “I don’t see it working out between us” will effectively shut someone down without assigning blame to them. Or if they have some obnoxious habit that they don’t know about, letting them know gives them the opportunity to change it.

If you are stopping any further contact with someone anyway, why does it matter whether they get nuance or not?
=========

We had a thread here a few weeks ago where we talked about how a lot of dating behavior was dependent on whether people were in some community where they have a reputation to maintain (and hence tend to be conservative in what they do) or not, where they could take more risks because the only thing hurt by rejection was their own self-esteem.

There’s an alternative to someone “not being into you” - they may be at a point in their life where they can’t really be in a relationship at all (due to emotional or time commitments elsewhere) but not know it. If they don’t call for three days because they’re working 18 hours or caring for elderly relatives, then they’re not good dating material for anyone.

A lot of dating advice guidance seems to be about blame - the Rules seem to about how it’s YOUR FAULT that any individual date doesn’t turn into a lifelong relationship. But dating often doesn’t work out for reasons that aren’t anyone’s fault at all, and accepting that will make everyone happier.

Comment #55: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  02:44 PM

Ugh, Lefty, I wish there were an easy answer to that question. I wish there was a guide on how to indirectly reject a man/woman without harming his/her ego.
I went on a couple of dates with this guy, and I realize that I’ve been giving him mixed signals. But that’s basically only because I was afraid to reject him because I know what it feels like to be rejected. But it probably would have been more fair to him to let him know early on that I just really…wasn’t that into him. And now I’ve probably ruined the friendship and will never be able to talk to him again. Great.
(Or should he have taken the same advice given to women—and stopped pursuing me because I wasn’t totally 100% infatuated with him? Or did he think I was just being coy? I don’t know.)

Comment #56: AW  on  01/28  at  02:46 PM

Amanda, I cannot count how many times I have given girls the same advice you give in this post.
This book came out when I was in college & I didn’t read it but the title was pretty much the answer to every problem my girl friends had with the guys they liked. He does these things that bug you and hurt you not because it’s just how bugs are but because he doesn’t care about you as much as you care about him and therefore should be dropped.
All the girls in my school felt the best way to get a guy was to “be cool” which basically meant letting the guy do whatever he wanted & do whatever he says and never voice a negative opinion cause no one likes a downer. If he wants to have sex with him, do it he’ll like you more!

Comment #57: AmandaPanda  on  01/28  at  02:52 PM

Then again, do you really want a relationship with someone who doesn’t do nuance well and has to spell Every Single Thing out, Every Single Time, and who potentially cannot understand the nuances you send in their direction?

On the serious relationship-related issues, why not? Sensing your partner’s moods doesn’t require “doing nuance” well (although it helps), but what adult needs the bloody “does she like me like me” high-school games and all the associated drama. Flirting is fun, but that’s not serious stuff.

If we go out on one date and I didn’t have a good time, I’m much more likely to simply never be available ever again and/or stop returning calls than I am to say, “you know, I think you’re a boring twit with bad taste in music, and you’re an awful kisser to boot!” Because that’s just rude

I haven’t been quite so blunt, but I have ended a couple of first dates dates early because there was clearly no chemistry or common interests, and stated as much (in a very polite and matter-of-fact way, with “blame” apportioned equally, if not more to me). They were a little startled by the blunt (and very unemotional) honesty, but why go through the motions? I’d rather she go home and entertain herself telling friends about the arsehole she just dated than waste another awkward hour or two with me.

was always a bit flummoxed when I was told someone would call me if they were not going to do so. My life doesn’t end if you don’t call, I promise. So, why bother? You’re not doing me any favors and I resent anyone thinking they need to “shield” me from such woeful rejection.

Exactly. If you’re gonna call, do it—no need for a theatrical trailer at the end of the date. The fact that “I’ll call you” has become the cop-out concluding phrase to 90% of first dates in this country tells us how well the MSM has done its job of promoting insecurity in our society.

Comment #58: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  02:57 PM

Then again, do you really want a relationship with someone who doesn’t do nuance well and has to spell Every Single Thing out, Every Single Time, and who potentially cannot understand the nuances you send in their direction?

The Opoponax,

Keep in mind this happened to me several years ago when I had practically no dating experience as I couldn’t afford it financially until I was in college and I was concentrating on my studies…partially so I don’t risk losing the near-full college scholarship if my GPA took a nosedive….especially when I saw so many classmates lose their scholarships, get placed on academic suspension, or even expelled because they allowed their non-academic lives to overwhelm their academic obligations.  There was no second chance for me if I had lost that scholarship as there was no way my parents could afford paying even state U tuition back then.

Didn’t really start dating until I started working professionally as that was when I finally had the financial wherewithal to do so.

Comment #59: exholt  on  01/28  at  03:01 PM

Cut myself off:
Amanda, I cannot count how many times I have given girls the same advice you give in this post.
This book came out when I was in college & I didn’t read it but the title was pretty much the answer to every problem my girl friends had with the guys they liked. He does these things that bug you and hurt you not because it’s just how bugs are but because he doesn’t care about you as much as you care about him and therefore should be dropped.
All the girls in my school felt the best way to get a guy was to “be cool” which basically meant letting the guy do whatever he wanted & do whatever he says and never voice a negative opinion cause no one likes a downer. We’d think, if he wants to have sex with him, do it he’ll like you more! If you don’t he’ll get bored and move on to the next girl. Reality, he’s moving on to the next girl no matter what you do. If he sleeps with your roommate, don’t let him know your hurt! If he ignores you at a party, just wear something sluttier next time! It was nuts. We would bend over backwards trying to show how cool we were while still crying ourselves to sleep because they won;t be our boyfriend.
It took meeting a great guy to make me realize this. When I met my boyfriend he would call me as soon as he got out of class, he wanted to spend every free second with me. There were no games, he was smitten and he let it show. I have no problem with girls initiating but if you have to initiate everything take the hint.
A friend of mine who was the poster girl for letting guys walk all over her, continued to persue a guy who admitted he only slept with her the first time on a bet. She downloaded every song by his favorite band, bought movies she knew he liked so they could watch it together, bought revealing tops to parade around in when he came over, and then still would force herself on him whenever he was drunk, and he laugh at her behind her back the entire time. She wouldn’t listen to any of us when we’d try to get her move on because she was convinced even if he didn’t like her now, he would. She wasted almost a year on this guy. And whenever we’d talk about her doormat qualities and how miserable her behavior made her she would brush it off saying “I just need a man more than most girls.” Not a good man, just a man.

Comment #60: AmandaPanda  on  01/28  at  03:10 PM

On the serious relationship-related issues, why not? Sensing your partner’s moods doesn’t require “doing nuance” well (although it helps), but what adult needs the bloody “does she like me like me” high-school games and all the associated drama. Flirting is fun, but that’s not serious stuff.

Also, the high school dating life and dramatics I keep hearing about from the MSM, college classmates, and colleagues was so far removed from my own high school experiences.  Though a minute number of people dated, the vast majority of classmates at my high school were too busy concentrating on achieving high GPAs, becoming leaders of co-curricular/extracurricular activities, and doing whatever else was necessary to hopefully gain admission to an Ivy/Ivy-level school. 

Heck, we had to cancel our junior prom because most students were simply not interested.  Every college classmate, friend, or colleague had a hard time believing that….but it did happen.  rolleyes

Comment #61: exholt  on  01/28  at  03:22 PM

One danger of “nuance”:
Sometimes that sort of vagueness and provision of conflicting messages is deliberate.  It allows a person to send mixed signals, create uncertainty, pick and choose the responses they like and engage in snap-back on the ones they don’t.  It’s game-laying, control-freakism and best avoided.  Some creeps really get into it, a sort of dating-game version of a sick bastard constantly moving the furniture on a blind person.

Comment #62: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  03:26 PM

Sometimes that sort of vagueness and provision of conflicting messages is deliberate.  It allows a person to send mixed signals, create uncertainty, pick and choose the responses they like and engage in snap-back on the ones they don’t.  It’s game-laying, control-freakism and best avoided.  Some creeps really get into it, a sort of dating-game version of a sick bastard constantly moving the furniture on a blind person.

Yep.  I’ve encountered younger male and female co-workers who believed that saying they have a girlfriend or boyfriend to someone they’re interested in would somehow make them more attractive…and then become crushed when their respective person(s) of interest was suddenly far less eager to pursue anything more than being platonic friends.  Though I just listened along….my mind was screaming “WTH did you expect was going to happen?!!”

Comment #63: exholt  on  01/28  at  03:35 PM

And now I’ve probably ruined the friendship and will never be able to talk to him again. Great.

One of the more liberating realizations I had in life was that “I have enough friends.” If some crossed signals occur such that I don’t/can’t maintain a friendship with someone I had a few dates with that didn’t go anywhere, who cares?

I had a couple of dates with someone whom I had crossed paths with a while ago, but we never got a chance to spend time together. Finally I got her contact info and met up. We had a lot in common, and I really thought she was awesome. After going out a couple of times, I just wasn’t getting any signals or response from her direction. I enjoyed her company enough that under normal circumstances I’d have wanted to see her again, but why bother? The enthusiasm wasn’t there on her end, and while it was a bummer for me, I know that pining over the issue is worse. We paid our respects to each other after dinner and I haven’t worried much about it since then, outside of a few thoughts of, “hm. yeah, too bad about that.”

It took meeting a great guy to make me realize this. When I met my boyfriend he would call me as soon as he got out of class, he wanted to spend every free second with me. There were no games, he was smitten and he let it show.

This is a bit easier for guys to pull off in high school and college because they’re less risk averse. Most people are nursing a broken heart or two by the time they get older. I know plenty of people who were like this, too. They loved their SO’s. Really. And they got their hearts broken, not that I blame the people who broke up with them. It’s just that really loving someone takes a lot of emotional investment and I think by the time people are well into adulthood, there’s a lot more caution involved.

Comment #64: Tyro  on  01/28  at  03:38 PM

Also, the high school dating life and dramatics I keep hearing about from the MSM, college classmates, and colleagues was so far removed from my own high school experiences.

I was at an oddball private school filled with geeks and bohemian types, so the “dating scene”  more resembled what goes on at a college campus (including, I’m afraid, student-teacher relationships). One of the things I’m most grateful for in life was being spared a typical HS experience.

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  03:48 PM

That said, I really do think the authors mean well.  They accept that men have more power than women, and that this is unfair

Hmm… when I was a teenager it seemed that women had all the power. Somebody should have told me that the tables would eventually turn. smile But women were mysterious to me, and a dating guide—as long as it wasn’t total bullshit—would have helped. So I think dating guides have value—it’s nice to be in a relationship even if it’s not your primary objective in life.

And you can’t have a relationship without equality of power, openness, and honesty.

BTW, the trailer—which has been taken down but is readily googlable—made the movie seem like a light frothy thing, not a doom fest. Maybe I’ll go see it with my sweetie.

Comment #66: Hector B.  on  01/28  at  03:54 PM

This is a bit easier for guys to pull off in high school and college because they’re less risk averse.

They also have a lot more free/flexible time than most working professionals who not only have to work 8+/hrs a day, but also work in environments where the use of company/personal cell phones for personal calls during the workday is strongly discouraged….if not prohibited altogether.* 

Moreover, even if there is no prohibitions on personal phone calls beyond the lunch hour, the heavy workloads may be such that one has little/no chance of stepping out to make a phone call without a risk of a strong reprimand/possible dismissal. 

Especially in this economic environment, being seen as someone who makes/receives “too many” personal phone calls during the workday is also perceived as a sign the employee is “not serious” about his/her work and justification enough to place them on the “first to lay off/fire” list.  Only exception to this is if you are well-liked by senior management/HR for whatever reason (i.e. Great ass-kisser.). 


* I’ve worked for some corporations which banned cell phone usage supposedly for corporate/legal confidentiality concerns.  It really was motivated by a few old-fashioned senior VPs who felt too many “young’uns” were wasting away the workday gabbing on the cellphone rather than applying themselves to their work.  rolleyes

Comment #67: exholt  on  01/28  at  03:56 PM

aying something like “I don’t think we’re a good match” or “I don’t see it working out between us” will effectively shut someone down without assigning blame to them.

To me, that’s second or third date territory.  If we’ve actually established some kind of ongoing connection, and one person realizes they’re not interested, then, yes, something needs to be said, and it should preferably be as polite and straightforward as possible.

But if I go on one date with someone and don’t have a good time, I’m not obligated to have a frank conversation about why I’m not interested in a second date.  A simple failure to say “we should do this again” or “I’ll call you”, and future deferral/avoidance, is enough.  Now if the other person is REALLY not getting the message, and is dense enough to think I’ve just been “busy” every single day for the last three months, it might come to that.  But I expect most people to take a hint, so to speak, if we’ve not established any real connection aside from exchanging phone numbers and going out for one round of drinks.

Comment #68: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  04:01 PM

A simple failure to say “we should do this again” or “I’ll call you”, and future deferral/avoidance, is enough.

This won’t work with nerds; nerds are literal, and assume you really are extremely busy.  (What if you are extremely busy, but like the other person? What do you say, then?)

Just say “Meh, I don’t think we should do this again.” If the other person starts to argue with you, just say, “See, I was right.”

Comment #69: Hector B.  on  01/28  at  04:18 PM

I was at an oddball private school filled with geeks and bohemian types, so the “dating scene” more resembled what goes on at a college campus (including, I’m afraid, student-teacher relationships). One of the things I’m most grateful for in life was being spared a typical HS experience.

Gracchus,

Sounded like your high school was far more interesting and fun than mine. 

Though we had a few artistic bohemian types, my high school had far more kids who were hardcore aspiring scientists, engineers, computer scientists, medical doctors, lawyers, and i-bankers*.  Come to think of it….it was pretty pathetic in that regard. 

Though I am also grateful to have been spared the typical US high school experience, the experience at my public urban magnet high school is certainly not for everyone, especially those who cannot withstand 4 years of teacher/administration encouraged ruthless cutthroat academic competition among classmates and the psychological and emotional stresses which come with it. 

It is one reason why I’ve advised any potential applicants and their parents to carefully evaluate themselves to see if they can cope with the pressure cooker environment that was my high school.  Though many can prosper in such an environment, many others end up falling by the wayside because they end up being overwhelmed by the workload, the pacing of the teaching, and the high expectations from teachers and fellow classmates.  My high school graduating class started with 950 incoming students who were admitted out of around 14,000 applicants.  By the time graduation rolled around, more than 250 opted to leave because they couldn’t deal with the workload and the pressure.  Considering all of this, it is a wonder that any dating goes on….

* When I came back to visit as an alum not too long after graduating undergrad, the first question a former teacher asked me was whether I was a “bigshot i-banker” working for Lehman Brothers or Goldman Sachs.  He looked quite disappointed when I replied in the negative.  rolleyes

Comment #70: exholt  on  01/28  at  04:26 PM

Keep in mind this happened to me several years ago when I had practically no dating experience

I take no issue with your behavior in your anecdote—everyone has to be young and inexperienced and unsure of the proper social cues at some point.  I still have to ask for advice on the various conventions of traditional hetero dating, because so much of my relationship experience falls outside of that norm. 

My main point was that your friend gave you pretty miserable advice (though, then again, it was probably good moral support at the time).  Someone who doesn’t call to explain why they don’t want to go out on a second date with you is not a dishonest asshole—they’re, at worst, someone who you’re not terribly compatible with if you expect 100% total candor at all times.

Though I’ll also say that I’ve managed to “date” and have relationships even when I was really, really broke.  It doesn’t have to be an expensive undertaking.  There were a lot of “dates” that involved Chinese takeout and a six-pack of PBR, or going for a walk in a public park.

Comment #71: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  04:29 PM

Lefty, Amanda has it.  You basically have to accept that it’s Totally Not Happening, which requires separation for a period of time combined with some kind of ritual or event that puts it to bed.

Comment #72: Punditus Maximus  on  01/28  at  04:48 PM

“Getting into the habit of blowing off every single guy who even shows a modicum of waffling about your inherent awesomeness provides immediate results in improving your outlook, attractiveness, and it frees up your time for interesting hobbies.”

On the other end, this advice would have ruined my marriage. I met the man who would be my husband shortly after getting out of a REALLY bad long term relationship. We hit it off right away, and there was obviously something strong going on between us. That said, I knew as soon as I started getting to know him that if we started dating we’d turn serious, and I wasn’t sure I was ready for that. Thus, I inadvertently sent him some rather obnoxious mixed signals, not because I wasn’t certain he was awesome (I was) but because I didn’t know what I was ready for yet. As soon as I decided that I was ready for something more serious, I stopped the mixed signals and it worked out beautifully.

In short, what just about everyone else above has said about people being complex.

Comment #73: Ashley  on  01/28  at  04:52 PM

But if I go on one date with someone and don’t have a good time, I’m not obligated to have a frank conversation about why I’m not interested in a second date.

You’re not obligated to shower before the date either, but it’s a good habit to get into. I’m not saying you should tell them WHY you’re not interested, just THAT you’re not interested so that they don’t waste any more time or emotional energy on you.

I wrote a loooong post about why this is really bugging me, but the interwebs ate it. Was probably TMI anyway.

Comment #74: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  04:57 PM

Sensing your partner’s moods doesn’t require “doing nuance” well (although it helps), but what adult needs the bloody “does she like me like me” high-school games and all the associated drama.

To me, understanding a basic social meme like “it’s ok not to have a formal conversation about whether you’d like to see someone again after a first date that didn’t go well” isn’t a dramatic high school game.  It’s just a social meme like any other.  Like knowing that when someone asks how you are, you’re just supposed to say, “pretty good” and move on.

I understanding someone not getting that at first, and being slightly frustrated by it.  But I would honestly be taken aback by someone who, at the end of our date, said, “You know, I don’t think I’m going to ask you out again.”  I would probably wonder if they had asperger’s or some other developmental disability that made social awareness extremely difficult.

If you don’t want t go out with me, don’t ask me out again.  If I don’t want to go out with you, I will politely decline future invitations.  We really don’t need to have a big come to jesus about it.

Comment #75: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  04:57 PM

I’m not saying you should tell them WHY you’re not interested, just THAT you’re not interested so that they don’t waste any more time or emotional energy on you.

Perhaps, but a lot of men demand an explanation.  Having dealt with that way too many times, I’m certain that when a man demands to know why a woman won’t date him, it’s entirely about trying to guilt trip her into dating him.  Women are conditioned to do anything to avoid hurting a man’s feelings, and some women will just cave rather than tell a guy that he’s unattractive, boring, or even simply not a good match.  You can bet your ass that many men know this and take advantage of it.

Comment #76: keshmeshi  on  01/28  at  05:13 PM

just THAT you’re not interested so that they don’t waste any more time or emotional energy on you.

To me, not hearing from the person again is plenty enough message that they’re not interested.  Then again, I usually don’t invest a ton of emotional energy on people I’ve maybe had a couple rounds of drinks with, tops.  I can usually peg how a date went.  Sometimes I think they’ll call again and they don’t, and I guess that’s sort of sad.  But I’ve never gotten more worked up about it than, “weird, I thought we were really hitting it off…” 

Honestly, I’d rather make up my own obviously fake reason for why they didn’t call back rather than sit through theirs.  Mine are way more forgiving, anyway. 

The only time a chat is actually required is if we slept together.  Then all bets are off.  If I’ve had sex with you, I expect a goddamn phone call the next day, bare minimum.

Comment #77: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  05:14 PM

Pepito, I just want to clarify with you that I am referring to situations where there has been one date and only one date, and there wasn’t a shit-ton of mating dance preceding the date, and you didn’t have sex, and the date wasn’t one of those dates where a beer turns into three or four, and then to dinner, and then to a long walk, and then to sitting on a park bench watching the sun rise, telling each other your life stories.  If I had a particularly long-awaited or intense first date with someone, and then I never heard from them, I’d be a little miffed.

But the typical, “hey, wanna grab a beer Saturday night?” first date?  If they never call back, they never call back.

Comment #78: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  05:25 PM

“The only time a chat is actually required is if we slept together.  Then all bets are off.  If I’ve had sex with you, I expect a goddamn phone call the next day, bare minimum. “

Opoponax, does standing outside your apartment with a boom box held over one’s head count?  Or is that too needy and too retro?

Comment #79: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  05:29 PM

You know, I will never understand the humans.  I’m _so_ glad I met my wife when we were both teenagers, because there’s no way I’d be able to put up with all this weirdness.  I’ve particularly never understood the “overeager” worry—why is that bad?  Is it because the “overeager” person could turn stalker-ish if things went badly later?  All this attempting to look five steps ahead in, like, five dimensions… it just breaks my brain.  Single people, my sympathies.  It’s like trying to succeed at a whole second career.

Comment #80: FlipYrWhig  on  01/28  at  05:31 PM

I’m still waiting for a book called “You’re just not that into him”: how to get a life of your own without getting caught up in the dating game.

I don’t get the whole dating thing anyway.  Never did.  Must be a GenX thing or something.

Comment #81: Ms Kate  on  01/28  at  05:45 PM

“I don’t get the whole dating thing anyway.  Never did.  Must be a GenX thing or something.”

Is that sarcasm?  We can’t tell any more.

Comment #82: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  05:49 PM

I understanding someone not getting that at first, and being slightly frustrated by it.  But I would honestly be taken aback by someone who, at the end of our date, said, “You know, I don’t think I’m going to ask you out again.” I would probably wonder if they had asperger’s or some other developmental disability that made social awareness extremely difficult.

I’ve done a blunt variant of this with a few dates who didn’t seem to realize that turning a first date into an effective hour-long interrogation about my finances* after they found out I worked in IT is not only merely offputting, but also quite invasive and rude.  rolleyes

Comment #83: exholt  on  01/28  at  05:51 PM

To me, not hearing from the person again is plenty enough message that they’re not interested.

But they’re not going to hear from you again whether you’re interested or not. They should just assume you’re never interested, then? Or they should take the time to call you to have you make half-arsed excuses? If you say you’re busy this week, does it mean you’re not interested or that you’re actually busy this week?

The only time a chat is actually required is if we slept together.  Then all bets are off.  If I’ve had sex with you, I expect a goddamn phone call the next day, bare minimum.

See, this is where it gets into games. There doesn’t need to be any communication after one date UNLESS you sleep together in which case he needs to call you the next day, not vice versa, UNLESS the next day is the third Wednesday in September, in which case you meet for tea and cakes. Do you ever actually tell them that or is it something else which you feel should be blisteringly obvious?

Incidentally - how does this work out when you date women?
==================
keshmeshi - entirely valid. That’s something I guess needs fixing long-term in terms of cultural expectations. If the norm were that people were more blunt with each other, it wouldn’t be so problematic. And yes, if there weren’t coercive wankers out there, women would be a lot freer to be blunt.

Comment #84: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  05:52 PM

Ech, I long for an “unpost” button. Op^2 got more reasonable as I got more brash. I’d like to say the same things, but without the sarcasm.

Comment #85: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  05:55 PM

Or is that too needy and too retro?

I have wanted someone to do that for me my whole life (even though nowadays that film glosses as creepy rather than romantic).  Unfortunately I live on the 12th floor, so serenading me via boombox under my window is sort of a tall order.  And stands to piss a lot of people off.

The boy in my life at the moment has a photo on facebook of himself holding an old-school style boom box, though.  I think that if he does not at least make some po-mo meta-romantic reference to the Cusack Boombox Serenade of ‘89, I will probably decide that He’s Just Not That Into Me.

(P.S. I would love to talk about the effect of romcoms on all this dating bullshit.)

Comment #86: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  06:00 PM

Ms. Kate:  http://www.amazon.com/Honest-Youre-Not-That-Into-Either/dp/0060817402

Comment #87: Rachel,II  on  01/28  at  06:02 PM

I would love to talk about the effect of romcoms on all this dating bullshit.

Jane Austen and her progeny—including the Austen and Austeniana movies—have to have had a huge impact, with all the waiting women and the brooding men who may or may not secretly love them, all transpiring across a backdrop of all the time in the world and no bloody work ever needing to be done.

Comment #88: FlipYrWhig  on  01/28  at  06:10 PM

in which case he needs to call you the next day, not vice versa

I have often made that call myself.  My point is that if we have sex and I never hear from you again (which includes not taking or returning my calls), that is not cool.  But if we had one drink and obviously didn’t hit it off?  Meh. 

This isn’t about rules and games and get out of jail free cards.  It’s about how emotionally involved you are, and what that level of emotional involvement entails, socially.  One drink with someone who is basically a stranger to me?  I’ll call if I had fun, and won’t if I didn’t, and expect the same from my date.  If something more intense occurred, the situation calls for a different level of emotional response.  Just like “ouch, you stepped on my toe” and “oh fuck, you shot me!” call for different levels of emotional response.

Comment #89: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  06:15 PM

I would love to talk about the effect of romcoms on all this dating bullshit

So start.  Those damned things are a bit like guns: fun, but goddamned dangerous.

Comment #90: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  06:18 PM

The Say Anything example and its impact on my personal understanding of what it means for someone to be over-the-moon crazy about me is a great illustration of a lot of what’s wrong with dating.  It’s a romantic gesture that looks great on the big screen.  And that’s really all it is—it’s not something that has to happen before I can understand that someone loves me. 

I’d also wonder about romcoms and the obnoxious tendency for Big Romantic Gestures.  Again, they’re things that make great climaxes to films.  But I feel like the romcom genre’s hold on certain subsets of women has taken an idea that seems neat if you’re a screenwriter and made it this thing that your boyfriend has to do, or “he’s just not that into you”. 

I won’t even get into the romantic comedy trope of the jerk guy who is creepily obsessed with the female protagonist, and wins her in the end because, like, That’s Just The Way It Is.

Comment #91: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  06:31 PM

I’ll call if I had fun and won’t if I didn’t, and expect the same from my date.

OK, that’s reasonable and wasn’t at all clear from your previous posts. smile

I was snappy because your “well, he should just KNOW what I mean” comments brought back a friend of mine who got really messed up after her then-boyfriend did some things that “he should have just KNOWN” would upset her. She was in a lot of pain for about 4 times as long as the relationship itself lasted.

Don’t get me wrong - the guy was a prick. But she let her perceptions and reality drift further and further apart because she wouldn’t just talk to him about stuff, and the crash was harder because of it.

Obviously someone you’re in an LTR with is different from someone you meet once for drinks.

Comment #92: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  06:31 PM

Seeker, you are so right about romcoms being dangerous. I avoided them like the plague even when I was single because they are vapid and silly…I have several female friends who firmly believe the events they see unfold in some syrupy sweet movie where the girl has a great career, great friends and a seemingly great life but no man. So, she is, of course, worthless until Prince Charming sweeps her off her feet and makes her life worth living. And then, there is the dialogue. Ugh. The dialogue. Men chasing after you calling your name when you storm off….Telling you you complete them, stopping by because they were just “nowhere in the neighborhood.” Yeah, because THAT’S what real relationships are like…All the time…Nonstop poetry. My fiance is a great guy but he doesn’t have a team of writers and our story is not a fairy tale. Thank god!

I didn’t understand just how profound the impact was when a woman watched too many of these movies, but it’s a real problem for several women I know personally.

Comment #93: TexasKaren  on  01/28  at  06:36 PM

I was thinking that the notion where calling the next day is creepy or desperate came from rom-coms, the genre where mind-games and power-plays are awwww totally sweet.

Comment #94: jericho  on  01/28  at  06:39 PM

transpiring across a backdrop of all the time in the world and no bloody work ever needing to be done.

Relationships are so hard for the fantastically rich. Proles like us would never understand if we didn’t have Austen to guide us.

I remember reading a magazine article a few years ago where 100 women each shared an anecdote of things guys did that made them fall in love, and they were without exception stupid romantic gestures which the guys did within six hours of meeting them.

My wife has a coworker who always brings a single long-stemmed rose to first dates. He doesn’t get a lot of second dates. My wife has been trying to get through to him that perhaps it’s not the best idea for various reasons.

Comment #95: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  06:43 PM

“well, [you] should just KNOW…”

Man, there isn’t a straight boy out there who hasn’t heard this one, direct and personal.

Comment #96: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  06:44 PM

(P.S. I would love to talk about the effect of romcoms on all this dating bullshit.)

As I understand it, here are some of the rules of dating from a romcom perspective:

* She plays hard to get, often unintentionally; he pursues.

* Only losers ever get turned down for a date by a single, appropriately-oriented person.

* There’s someone for everyone.

* It’s a horrible imposition to ask someone out who’s not interested in you.

* You can’t have a good time on a date unless you’re attracted.  Nobody ever goes out, has a good time, but decides there aren’t any sparks flying.

* Perseverance is heroic if you’re the protagonist, creepy otherwise.

* Affection is a reward for virtue.

* Men want sex, but are willing to wait for the right woman; women want relationships, but are willing to sleep with the right man.

* The Big Romantic Gesture is always appreciated.

* Relationships are goal-oriented.  Typically, the goal is marriage; for younger folks, it can be exclusivity.

* There’s a strict time frame for relationship progression.  Too fast and it can’t be a serious relationship; too slow and it’s stalled.

* It’s better to be in a relationship than to be single; the problem with a bad relationship is that it keeps you from exploring better opportunities.

* Exes are horrible, crazed enemies, or else they wouldn’t be exes.

Comment #97: jfpbookworm  on  01/28  at  06:44 PM

I remember reading a magazine article a few years ago where 100 women each shared an anecdote of things guys did that made them fall in love, and they were without exception stupid romantic gestures which the guys did within six hours of meeting them.

That sounds like a framing issue, even if the women weren’t selected for their anecdotes.  The very question assumes that her affection is due to something he did.

Comment #98: jfpbookworm  on  01/28  at  06:47 PM

jfpbookworm:
Good listing.  I’d add:

* The Big Romantic Gesture is always understood, or misunderstood only long enough for its later comprehension to be a stimulus to the relationship later.

* If the female lead is already with a guy then he must be seen to be a prize wanker.  (“the Pompous Ass” [Stephen Fry’s character in IQ], or the “the Condescending Asshole” [the ex-gf’s fiance in Major League and the bf in Crocodile Dundee], or the “Turns Out To Be Bad” [Crossing Delancy], and “the Not As Interested In Her As The Hero” [Four Weddings and a Funeral—remember Hamish?] are all predictable favourities.)  They give license for the heroine to change horses in mid-stream.


And am I the only one who found Meg Ryan’s character in “Sleepless in Seattle” waaaay beyond creepy and stalkerish?

Comment #99: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  07:02 PM

Oh, I forgot.  I’d add…

* - “Merely being a very nice chap” is more than enough to sustain a relationship, if it’s the hero.  If it’s the heroine’s boyfriend it isn’t enough, and stands as a good reason to leave him.

Comment #100: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  07:04 PM

That sounds like a framing issue, even if the women weren’t selected for their anecdotes.  The very question assumes that her affection is due to something he did.

Well, I’m pretty sure the piece was in a “lad’s magazine”. I know I found the magazine in a youth hostel in Australia. So it was “what can you do to MAKE her fall for you”, which I agree is orthogonal to how people actually work.

Comment #101: Dolbia  on  01/28  at  07:07 PM

I have a friend who has kind of slipped into a funk since her last long-term relationship ended almost two years ago.  She complains about how no guys seem to be approaching her, but she is not really trying to show her best side or get out among the people.

I have totally opposite advice from everyone else:  it might be interesting for her to sign up with one of the internet services (like Match.com) and just go out on a whole passel of first dates with a variety of people.  It really helps you get over the whole “any person I go on a date with MUST be the love of my life” very quickly.  I did meet my husband through online dating, but he was #14 of a whole series of first dates that I packed into a few months.

Comment #102: Mnemosyne  on  01/28  at  07:09 PM

* Gay men are allowed to be the Leading Lady’s Gay Best Friend, and must be eternally single so that they might commiserate with the Leading Lady about how there are no good men out there. They must meet the stereotype of the extremely effeminate gay man; butch men need not apply.

* Poor communication equals comedy gold! Never, ever be honest with yourself or the people you’re dating about your feelings until it’s almost too late.

* There is only ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD who is ‘right’ for you, and you will find them only after much trial and error. When you meet them it will feel as though you never really loved anyone else before. They will complete you, and fill your every need.

* Variant on the above: You will not discover the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD who is right for you until they have committed to someone else. You are completely justified in anything you have to do to sabotage their relationship. Because obviously they’re the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD who is right for you, and they could not possibly be right for that other asshole.

I kind of wish I didn’t like romantic comedies so much. But I do, and I have to give kudos to my favorite for gently subverting many of the rom-com cliches while hewing close to the formula.

Comment #103: kaninchen  on  01/28  at  07:18 PM

I think a lot of people say, “I’ll call you,” and mean it when they say it.  But when they get home, they slowly realize they really don’t want to, and procrastinate until it’s too late.

Comment #104: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  07:21 PM

If the female lead is already with a guy then he must be seen to be a prize wanker.  (“the Pompous Ass” [Stephen Fry’s character in IQ], or the “the Condescending Asshole” [the ex-gf’s fiance in Major League and the bf in Crocodile Dundee], or the “Turns Out To Be Bad” [Crossing Delancy], and “the Not As Interested In Her As The Hero” [Four Weddings and a Funeral—remember Hamish?] are all predictable favourities.)

You forgot a fifth category:  Bill Pullman.  Or maybe that’s the snappy title for your fourth one.

Comment #105: FlipYrWhig  on  01/28  at  07:22 PM

A simple failure to say “we should do this again” or “I’ll call you”, and future deferral/avoidance, is enough.

“I’m busy,” is the time-honored way to dodge any undesired social occasion, not just dates.  If I’m dodging a party that sounds boring, I don’t say, “Sorry, your party is boring.”  I don’t see why second dates can’t be the same.  I’ve never known anyone not to take a hint. 

Of course, the problem with the universal busy signal is that if you really are busy, you have to overexplain yourself.  Like I was gushing on the phone to a friend this afternoon that I really, really do like to see his band play but I missed it because I really was busy for sure.

Comment #106: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/28  at  07:29 PM

kaninchen:  Great additions.  You’re right about this one….

* Variant on the above: You will not discover the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD who is right for you until they have committed to someone else. You are completely justified in anything you have to do to sabotage their relationship. Because obviously they’re the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD who is right for you, and they could not possibly be right for that other asshole.

... It was one of the reasons that “My Best Friend’s Wedding” was so funny because it turned that one right upside down. 

Come to think of it, that film also makes effective reverse-use of…

* Gay men are allowed to be the Leading Lady’s Gay Best Friend, and must be eternally single so that they might commiserate with the Leading Lady about how there are no good men out there. They must meet the stereotype of the extremely effeminate gay man; butch men need not apply.

... Rupert Everett’s cultured but masculine friend is her bud, yes, but doesn’t fit this insulting model.  I found the scene where he studiously ignores the heroine’s hysterical phone message during his dinner party to be really, really funny.


FlipYrWhig: Funny!  But isn’t Bill Pullman a bit outside the rules?  He gets to be the romantic lead (While You Were Sleeping) and the “Nice But Boring So It’s Okay To Leave Him” subset of ” `Merely being a very nice chap’ is more than enough to sustain a relationship, if it’s the hero.  If it’s the heroine’s boyfriend it isn’t enough, and stands as a good reason to leave him” (Sleepless in Seattle).

Comment #107: seeker6079  on  01/28  at  07:30 PM

“And then, there is the dialogue. Ugh. The dialogue.”

Word, that shit is painful.

Also, the obligatory talking-in-your-underwear scene.  Why do they always show underwear in rom-coms?  It’s either the protagonist is casually stripping to her undies while she talks to her friends, or shaving her legs while she talks to her gay BFF.  WTF?

Comment #108: raspberryjamba  on  01/28  at  07:39 PM

seeker6079, I don’t think I’ve actually watched that all the way through. I shall have to remedy that error. Thanks! smile

Comment #109: kaninchen  on  01/28  at  07:43 PM

But about dating advice:

When I started in the business of being a Girl (who must attract boys), my older sister gave me a few pointers (she was 17, I was 11), which included:
-always wear your hair down
-always swing your hair about, and play with it, but not too much
-when you are looking at a guy, never smile
-but don’t look away
-this will make him ask you to dance

American kids don’t have this experience, but where I’m from, you go to parties where boys ask girls to dance.  For just as long as one song.  Your social status depends on being asked to dance as much as possible, but only dancing with the good looking boys, or ones that look a lot older than you.  You cannot ask them to dance, and you can’t dance by yourself or with your girlfriends, but if you are a girl and not dancing, you are a loser, you might as well hide in the girls bathroom.

Doesn’t this sound a lot like “The Rules”?

Comment #110: raspberryjamba  on  01/28  at  08:02 PM

@ seeker—That’s what I sort of like about “While You Were Sleeping” (1995); I feel like it relies on the idea that Bill Pullman was the unglamorous second banana who doesn’t really mind the female lead’s leaving him for a “better” man in both _Sleepless_ AND _Sommersby_ (both 1993).  I don’t know if it was _cast_ that way, but it definitely feels that way, like at some point the other shoe is going to drop and the more-glamorous Peter Gallagher is going to steal the show back, but it never does.  (Yes, I’m kind of a rom-com softie.)

Comment #111: FlipYrWhig  on  01/28  at  08:07 PM

“You forgot a fifth category:  Bill Pullman.  Or maybe that’s the snappy title for your fourth one.”

Bill Pullman is very good at playing the Baxter, isn’t he?  It’s a terrible shame that they didn’t actually cast him for the lead in The Baxter.

Comment #112: preying mantis  on  01/28  at  08:48 PM

To me, understanding a basic social meme like “it’s ok not to have a formal conversation about whether you’d like to see someone again after a first date that didn’t go well” isn’t a dramatic high school game.

Agreed. But an equally acceptable social meme is to end the evening that runs its full course but won’t be followed up with something like “well, see you around. Night!” instead of a vague promise like “I’ll call you.” The latter, even as a knee-jerk banality, is game-playing and sending mixed signals. I don’t know how many times female friends have expressed how much they hate it when a guy says he’ll call and then doesn’t, so I’ve excised it from my repertoire.

But I would honestly be taken aback by someone who, at the end of our date, said, “You know, I don’t think I’m going to ask you out again.” I would probably wonder if they had asperger’s or some other developmental disability that made social awareness extremely difficult.

To be clear, I wouldn’t end most first-and-last dates on that note. The rare times I ended the date early, as described above, it was more to salvage the rest of the evening than to make a formal annoucement that there wouldn’t be a second date (which was implied anyhow). Otherwise, in those situations, I just say my goodnights with no promise of any follow-up whatsoever. I only give the blunt and honest answer if the girl asks (and sometimes she does).

In any case, I’ve long since learned to reduce the possibility of having to end a date early by making the first date drinks or coffee.

Comment #113: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  08:54 PM

I’ve done a blunt variant of this with a few dates who didn’t seem to realize that turning a first date into an effective hour-long interrogation about my finances* after they found out I worked in IT is not only merely offputting, but also quite invasive and rude.

It’s funny, I used to let that kind of thing go when I was in my 20s and new to post-college dating. The first couple of times I just assumed that behaviour I’d find incredibly gauche anyplace else was just part of dating in the big city. I was quickly disabused of that notion, and nowadays that would definitely be a date I’d end early.

Sounded like your high school was far more interesting and fun than mine.

More fun? Maybe. More interesting? I doubt it—just a different kind of interesting.

Comment #114: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  08:56 PM

You forgot a fifth category:  Bill Pullman

Or Ralph Bellamy, as Bill Pullman was known 70 years ago. That category (along with most of the rom-com tropes mentioned) has been around almost since the dawn of the talkies, and before that in novels and plays. It’s basically a sweet-natured and sympathetic variant on the stock character of the cuckold.

Comment #115: Gracchus.  on  01/28  at  09:01 PM

Though I’ll also say that I’ve managed to “date” and have relationships even when I was really, really broke.  It doesn’t have to be an expensive undertaking.  There were a lot of “dates” that involved Chinese takeout and a six-pack of PBR, or going for a walk in a public park.

In high school, my family were in such dire financial straits that there were serious questions at certain points of whether we were going to be able to stay in our apartment or afford college even at state U.  Broke would have been putting it too kindly. 

In college, though my fears of losing my near-full college scholarship was seriously overblown in retrospect…I didn’t want to chance the negative fallout from bad dates, messiness from relationships, or breakups which have caused many undergrad classmates’ grades to plummet….sometimes to the point of being placed on academic suspension/being expelled.  Unlike most classmates, I had no wealthy parents and/or a trust-fund to fall back on if my college career went south…...

Rightly or wrongly, the cost-benefit analysis just wasn’t work the risk.

Comment #116: exholt  on  01/28  at  09:23 PM

It’s funny, I used to let that kind of thing go when I was in my 20s and new to post-college dating. The first couple of times I just assumed that behaviour I’d find incredibly gauche anyplace else was just part of dating in the big city. I was quickly disabused of that notion, and nowadays that would definitely be a date I’d end early.

A part of my reaction when this happened in my early 20s is that I am very sensitive and reticent about any discussions dealing with personal finances as a result of the still fresh memories of my family’s financial struggles in high school and most of my undergrad.  Another is that no one I know enjoys being in a situation more akin to an IRS audit interrogation than what was ostensibly supposed to be a date. 

Another part may be my possible inheriting the values old Confucian scholar-gentry aspired to…namely being highly learned and intellectual was far more important than being concerned with material wealth*.

* Yes, I know most of them never really lived up to it, especially after doing extensive readings and research dealing with how they fit/interacted in the mid-late imperial Chinese social milieu.

Comment #117: exholt  on  01/28  at  09:51 PM

More fun? Maybe. More interesting? I doubt it—just a different kind of interesting.

Gracchus,

That interpretation is possible if one has borderline sado-masochistic inclinations…;)

Though an aunt and uncle asked me about whether my high school would be right for their daughter, I asked whether she has the ability/inclination to thrive in a ruthlessly cutthroat competitive environment with little to no handholding or not. 

Though they said they’ll think about it, they clearly answered my question when they opted to send her to an expensive NYC area private high school instead. 

Then again, I’ve also encountered several other prospective applicants of both genders and their parents who became more inspired and fired up upon hearing of my experience at the urban public magnet high school.  As I said, the experience is not for everyone….

Comment #118: exholt  on  01/28  at  10:06 PM

Yes, I know most of them never really lived up to it, especially after doing extensive readings and research dealing with how they fit/interacted in the mid-late imperial Chinese social milieu.

The funny thing for me was being raised with similar values regarding the importance of being highly learned and intellectual vs. seeking after material wealth… only to discover how completely and totally dishonest people who promoted (or at least accepted) those ideas were when it came to where their real respect lay. Not that I regret my decisions, but I’m surprised how my academic and career path have turned out to alienate myself from the rest of the world I grew up in in a way I didn’t realize.

also, exholt, at this point, it’s becoming obvious that you went to one of two possible high schools.

Comment #119: Tyro  on  01/28  at  10:40 PM

My wife has a coworker who always brings a single long-stemmed rose to first dates.

Weird.

I mean, flowers are OK.  On the other hand, if I don’t know you that well, I’m much more interested in what you have to say to me than what kind of dead plant you hand me when you pick me up. 

I also think flowers are much more appreciated when we’re at the point in a relationship where you know what I like, rather than bringing a single red rose as if all women were just cookie cutter Stepfordbots.  Bring me daisies or sweet william or peonies.  Roses are OK and all, but it really sends the signal that you neither know nor care what kind of flowers I like.  In which case, what’s the point?

Comment #120: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  11:49 PM

But, and this is what made me attracted/repulsed to it, I can’t help but think that it’s a good thing if women had some kind of coaching that pushed them away from being desperate or clingy.  Not that all women are, by a long shot, but our culture does admittedly condition women towards this behavior.  And who can blame them?  Every time you turn around, you’re hit with another variation of the message, “You’re nobody until a man—-any man—-chooses you.” And who doesn’t want to be allowed into the human race?  With that sort of pressure, the more important issues regarding love—-such as, “Do you even like him?” and “Are you a good match?”—-become secondary.  Worse, that sort of cultural belief does reinforce the power imbalance, and men can use women’s desire for acceptance to flatter their own egos, even if they feel nothing for such women.  Anything you can do to get off the carousel of having your self esteem sucked dry to boost someone else’s is a good one, I suppose.  I’m pragmatic that way.  To add the layer of irony, the only realistic way to become the woman that gets that gaga attention from a man because he’s so infatuated with you is to be independent and interesting and send the message that you don’t need him.  Needy, clingy people who have low self-esteem who are motivated less by their own ideas and more by the desire for approval aren’t that attractive.  Getting into the habit of blowing off every single guy who even shows a modicum of waffling about your inherent awesomeness provides immediate results in improving your outlook, attractiveness, and it frees up your time for interesting hobbies.

Hmmm…

I can’t help but think that it’s a good thing if men had some kind of coaching that pushed them away from being desperate or clingy.  Not that all men are, by a long shot, but our culture does admittedly condition men towards this behavior.  And who can blame them?  Every time you turn around, you’re hit with another variation of the message, “You’re nobody until a woman—-any woman—-chooses you.” And who doesn’t want to be allowed into the human race?  With that sort of pressure, the more important issues regarding love—-such as, “Do you even like her?” and “Are you a good match?”—-become secondary.  Worse, that sort of cultural belief does reinforce the power imbalance, and women can use men’s desire for acceptance to flatter their own egos, even if they feel nothing for such men.  Anything you can do to get off the carousel of having your self esteem sucked dry to boost someone else’s is a good one, I suppose.  I’m pragmatic that way.  To add the layer of irony, the only realistic way to become the man that gets that gaga attention from a woman because she’s so infatuated with you is to be independent and interesting and send the message that you don’t need her.  Needy, clingy people who have low self-esteem who are motivated less by their own ideas and more by the desire for approval aren’t that attractive.  Getting into the habit of blowing off every single girl who even shows a modicum of waffling about your inherent awesomeness provides immediate results in improving your outlook, attractiveness, and it frees up your time for interesting hobbies.

It still feels about as accurate when you reverse the genders.

Comment #121: Doug S.  on  01/28  at  11:50 PM

he very question assumes that her affection is due to something he did.

Not really, I mean a “better” answer could be something like “When I realized he valued my intelligence and independence more than anything else” or “When he went out of my way to get along with my curmudgeonly grandfather”.

Comment #122: The Opoponax  on  01/28  at  11:52 PM

Here’s the thing I hate most about this movie:

They have that thing at the beginning of movies - the Twenty, or the Reel Flix, or whatever they call it now - and they do a special one for kids. When we went to see Hotel for Dogs, the three films they showcased, during the FOR KIDS intro reel, were “Space Buddies”, “Some other dumb kids’ movie”, and “He’s just not that into you.”

FOR FUCKING KIDS, people.

Comment #123: Auguste  on  01/28  at  11:56 PM

Like I was gushing on the phone to a friend this afternoon that I really, really do like to see his band play but I missed it because I really was busy for sure.

The same thing just happened to me.  Every time my friend’s band had a gig, I happened to have un-cancellable plans already scheduled for the same night, for months running.  I had to make a special point of saying this (including examples of what the plans were), and then make a special plan to go to the first gig they played where I didn’t have other plans.

Comment #124: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  12:01 AM

But an equally acceptable social meme is to end the evening that runs its full course but won’t be followed up with something like “well, see you around. Night!” instead of a vague promise like “I’ll call you.” The latter, even as a knee-jerk banality, is game-playing and sending mixed signals.

Agreed.  But it’s pretty easy to avoid saying you’ll call.  Or the one I sometimes let slip out, “We should do this again sometime”. 

In my opinion, the best Bad First Date protocol is to be totally noncommittal and then just don’t call.  And if they call, give the traditional obvious “not interested” signals. Unless they call every two days for a month or something, in which case you’ve got to just spell it out for them.

Comment #125: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  12:08 AM

I used to let that kind of thing go when I was in my 20s and new to post-college dating.

I’m willing to “let it go” in the sense of just keeping mum, cutting the date short (agreed on drinks or coffee for a first date for this very reason), and laughing my ass off at their idiocy as soon as I get rid of them.

Then again, I don’t tend to get the financial third degree, being a graphic designer.  I get the inquisition about other stuff which is totally inappropriate for a first date, but not that.

I had to tell some friends recently that asking where someone summers is NOT an acceptable first date question to follow “what do you do?” if their answer is something traditionally lucrative.  Especially coming from someone who does not make even close to enough money to “summer” anywhere (i.e. me).

Comment #126: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  12:15 AM

My wife has a coworker who always brings a single long-stemmed rose to first dates.

Is his name Josh? >__>

Comment #127: annejumps  on  01/29  at  12:16 AM

In high school, my family were in such dire financial straits that there were serious questions at certain points of whether we were going to be able to stay in our apartment or afford college even at state U.  Broke would have been putting it too kindly.

I didn’t date in high school.  I could one-up you as to why that was, but honestly I think the “my youth was more pathetic than your youth” game is pretty silly, and I don’t know why we’re having this back and forth when honestly my main point was that your friend was giving you kind of crap advice when she told you that anyone who doesn’t call you back after a first date is a two-faced lying asshole, or whatever.

Comment #128: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  12:21 AM

I can’t help but think that it’s a good thing if men had some kind of coaching that pushed them away from being desperate or clingy.

Not everyone whose read the book is a woman. Although I would be very surprised if somebody wrote She’s Just Not That Into You, and it gained any kind of traction. The closest we get is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Comment #129: banisteriopsis  on  01/29  at  12:32 AM

“My wife has a coworker who always brings a single long-stemmed rose to first dates.

Have you seen the vending machines that dispense a long single stemmed fresh rose for like five bucks I think?

Comment #130: tootiredoftheright  on  01/29  at  12:43 AM

“In my opinion, the best Bad First Date protocol is to be totally noncommittal and then just don’t call. “

One woman and I looked at each other and said, unprompted and in unison, “naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah”.  Does that count?

Comment #131: seeker6079  on  01/29  at  01:14 AM

^ Hilarious.

Comment #132: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  01:21 AM

Have you seen the vending machines that dispense a long single stemmed fresh rose for like five bucks I think?

I’ve definitely seen them on the counter at convenience stores. And being sold by people at street corners. It’s like, “Hey, I got you a pine tree air freshener!”

A wed wose. How womantic.

Comment #133: kaninchen  on  01/29  at  03:52 AM

I think a lot of people say, “I’ll call you,” and mean it when they say it.  But when they get home, they slowly realize they really don’t want to, and procrastinate until it’s too late.

DING DING DING!

Actually, even when I really do want to, I still procrastinate. It can take me days to get around to calling even my closest friends or members of my immediate family about totally neutral matters, so calling (or even texting) someone I barely know about a date is incredibly difficult. I have a problem with telephones…

Comment #134: Dunc  on  01/29  at  07:05 AM

So do I, and lately I’ve been getting around it by breaking the ice via text.  Which is probably just slightly less gauche than a “text message breakup”, but I don’t care.  It’s much easier for me to text “what are you up to this weekend?” than it is to push through those awkward early phone calls.

All dating-oriented text messages should have impeccable spelling and grammar, btw.  At least during the early phases.

Comment #135: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  09:07 AM

That interpretation is possible if one has borderline sado-masochistic inclinations..

Will you accept “interesting” as in “may you live in interesting times”?

Anyhow, since you seem to be an NYC boy, think of my (non-NYC) HS as an amalgam of Stuy High, LaGuardia High, and Dalton, with a strong community service element. Like I said, a different kind of interesting. I’ll leave it at that so as not to stray off-topic.

Comment #136: Gracchus.  on  01/29  at  09:46 AM

In my opinion, the best Bad First Date protocol is to be totally noncommittal and then just don’t call.  And if they call, give the traditional obvious “not interested” signals. Unless they call every two days for a month or something, in which case you’ve got to just spell it out for them.

I’ll suggest something better: instead of giving the traditional(?) obvious(?) “not interested” signals, just spell it out, politely and honestly, the first time they call (or text or email). End of story.*

I’m know from experience that a woman can do that just as easily as I can, and I’ve appreciated it when it’s happened.

* To be fair, it’s not always “end of story,” but at that point you’re dealing with a different problem . I’ll also be the first to agree that stalking has different consequences and frequency of occurrence for men that it does for women.

Comment #137: Gracchus.  on  01/29  at  09:50 AM

I see nothing wrong with showing some vulnerability like the need to be loved. I’ve done that, and it has proven to be surefire Douche-Dar: If Potential Partner takes advantage of it and tramples on you, Potential Partner is a douche.

Comment #138: Luke  on  01/29  at  10:21 AM

DING DING DING!

Actually, even when I really do want to, I still procrastinate. It can take me days to get around to calling even my closest friends or members of my immediate family about totally neutral matters, so calling (or even texting) someone I barely know about a date is incredibly difficult. I have a problem with telephones…

I can totally relate as someone who detests talking on the phone and prefers face to face conversations or the use of emails/IMs(Without the IMspeak).  Somehow, talking to a disembodied voice through a device is so discomfiting that I usually prefer to keep phone conversations as short and to-the-point as possible.  It is something I need to work on as there are many others who hate the use of emails/IMs or conversations in person.

Comment #139: exholt  on  01/29  at  03:13 PM

I see nothing wrong with showing some vulnerability like the need to be loved. I’ve done that, and it has proven to be surefire Douche-Dar: If Potential Partner takes advantage of it and tramples on you, Potential Partner is a douche.

How does one deal with the potential expanded social fallout if the potential partner turned douche is part of the same social circle as your friends/acquaintances from school or work or worse…family?

Comment #140: exholt  on  01/29  at  03:16 PM

asking where someone summers is NOT an acceptable first date question to follow “what do you do?”

I think it’s a great question, because it immediately would tell me that she and I had absolutely nothing in common. Other similarly good questions would be, “Which hunt club do you belong to?” “Tiffany or Cartier?” and “When do you get control of your trust fund?”

Comment #141: Hector B.  on  01/29  at  03:29 PM

How does one deal with the potential expanded social fallout if the potential partner turned douche is part of the same social circle as your friends/acquaintances from school or work or worse…family?

Date outside your social circle. Granted, it’s easier to do this after college and if you live in a large urban area, but if you can it’s the way to go. Avoid fix-ups by family and friends, and look to date women who aren’t on permanent staff at your workplace. Not saying it’s easy, just that it eliminates the fallout problem you described.

Comment #142: Gracchus.  on  01/29  at  03:50 PM

I see nothing wrong with showing some vulnerability like the need to be loved.

There’s something wrong with it on the first date. The emotional equivalent of showing them ALL your piercings.

Comment #143: Dolbia  on  01/29  at  05:34 PM

Agreed, Amanda. This book is just another one of many dating guides that pretend to be empowering. One I drudged through lately that made me bananas was Ex and the Single Gal. Of course, anytime anyone in any context portrays being an independent female with cats as inherently a “crazy cat lady”, I tend to stop listening out of disgust and sheer disinterest. At least with my cat’s crap, I can scoop it up and throw it away… a sexist’s crap is more messy and instantly ingrains itself into the upholstery.

Comment #144: TheMadChild  on  01/29  at  07:13 PM

I think it’s a great question, because it immediately would tell me that she and I had absolutely nothing in common. Other similarly good questions would be, “Which hunt club do you belong to?” “Tiffany or Cartier?” and “When do you get control of your trust fund?”

Well, aside from the WASPy usage, “summering” somewhere really isn’t all that exclusive in these parts.  The best I can deduce, it’s sort of an upper middle class thing, I guess?  Most of my coworkers have some sort of access to a country house or vacation home or beach cottage or something like that somewhere in the Northeast.  I didn’t grow up in a part of the country where people used that term, but even growing up relatively ordinary middle class in the rural south, plenty of people I knew had a cabin on Grand Isle or a timeshare in Pensacola. 

I neither grew up “summering” somewhere, nor can I even remotely afford to do so now, but it’s a reality for most of my coworkers, and one of them made some semi-fucked-up assumptions based on what the individual in question does for a living.

Comment #145: The Opoponax  on  01/29  at  07:27 PM
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