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Next entry: Video: Lt. Dan Choi didn’t get that phone call while detained in the DC jail Previous entry: Bunnies!

Peter out or get crazier?

It’s the question on the minds of those of us who’ve been alarmed watching the teabaggers give up all pretense of civility (not that they had much) in the run-up to the health care reform vote in the House.  Now that it looks likely that we’ll actually get health care reform, the question is what will the teabaggers do with all that anger?  While the fact that the world not end cause them to run out of juice and go home to stew while listening to Rush and Glenn?  Or will get they get uglier and more violent? It’s clear that some Republican politicians see the latter as the preferable option, presumably because they think it improves their electoral prospects. Witness Steve King playing footsie with violence and secession: (It’s the first 3 minutes of the video).

Of course, we had our trolls yesterday trying to claim equivalency between anti-democratic sentiments from the right and a few blowhards on the left.  But this sort of thing demonstrates the difference—-sitting congressmen talking up secession and praising a giant crowd for its violent impulses.  Indeed, I would say demands that we see an equivalence are another example of how conservatives simply believe they get to have more and get away with more because of their cultural identification as right wingers.  In order for the left to complain about politicians calling for violence and secession, we have to make sure there isn’t a single left-leaning person who has fantasized about violence.  In order to be alarmed about crowds of people who brag about being gun nuts and who practically beg for someone to declare an official revolution so they can start shooting up perceived enemies, we have to make sure the left has not a single loner who has violent fantasies.  They get more leeway, according to them, because they’re better than us.  The evidence for this has so far not been produced.  The wingnuts who bug me on Twitter use abortion as a fallback position for their moral and cultural superiority, but I reject the idea that respect for women’s liberation and human sexuality makes a person immoral.  I actually think it’s the morally upright position.

What do I think will happen here?  Will it peter out, or will they get crazier?  Well, I think both things will happen. Most of them can’t sustain this outrage that long.  The natural inclination of haters is to sit at home, stewing in their toxic brew of racism and general haterade, and take cowardly potshots at people they don’t like, while pretending to be brave for doing so. They’re also not very creative people.  They’ve been able to keep it up, because the insurance industry has been pouring enormous amounts of money into organizing “grassroots” events for the sheep to show up to, but if the insurance industry decides to cut its losses after this and stop pouring money into that black hole—-and I’m sure they will, if not immediately, then soon—-then the teabaggers will be leaderless and will just go home. 

A minority, however, are organized enough to keep it up.  They’re bored and paranoid.  Many of them are dumb shits who have derived all their self-esteem from racism and sexism and homophobia, and being confronted with the proposition that people really are equal (and that a black man and a white woman could manage to pass a piece of legislation that’s confounded a century’s worth of politicians) makes them feel small, and they’ll do anything to regain their self-esteem.  Except that they’re not really bright people, so creating self-esteem through productive projects isn’t really their thing, and instead, they’re going to stew even more in their hate, and find more like-minded people.  They’ll join militias and white supremacist groups, and the FBI is going to have their work cut out for them monitoring domestic terrorists.

Meanwhile, the punditry that encourages this crap will not slow down.  It’s their jobs!  Just like you and me, Glenn Beck has to get up every day and go to work.  Except his job is keeping the outrage high by any means necessary, and keeping his audience from being truly educated by making them think they have the inside information.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:49 AM • (71) Comments

This seems a bit too much like when a me and a carload of friends stopped for snacks and drinks on a warm March day trip to the beach.  Those of us waiting for the munchers started playing frisbee in a quiet strip mall parking lot.  These old men appeared out of nowhere and started calling back and forth “we don’t have any trouble in our town ...”.  It was totally pathetic - kids playing frisbee and tweedle dum and tweedle dee marching around chanting about some vague threat to their tiny world and testosterone.

In any case, I hope the FBI is taking pictures.  These violence advocates can be first in line when all the terrorists are removed from the SSI disability rolls.

Comment #1: Ms Kate  on  03/23  at  11:30 AM

Don’t forget the people who have committed to the lie - they can’t reverse their position, because that means they’ve failed, and they’ve invested all their time and energy into promoting the other side as the absolute devil.  People just don’t slap their hands to their foreheads and say “how could I have been so wrong all these years?!”, they entrench themselves further and further into the lie until violence seems like the only way to silence the opposition.

The pundits who drive this thinking are also in a bad position - they can’t go back now, they have to keep striding forward, even if they’re aware they’re striding purposefully into a dark unstable mineshaft and all the canaries are already dead.  It’s the reductionist way of life writ large.

They might even be afraid that their followers will turn on them with the same hate that they now display towards the Left if they ease back on the rhetoric.  The liars who know they lie are bad, but the liars who (mostly) believe the lie they’ve been told are going to get very violent and/or get themselves killed so they can martyr themselves and others for the lie. 

They give me the shivers, because the teabagger movement has given them a false sense of legitimacy - before, they were mostly too isolated to pull something like Timothy McVeigh, and only the most egotistic of them set themselves up as the leaders of isolated cults prepared to die for the right to have sex with underage children and stockpile vast arsenals of firepower.  Now, they have the warm fuzzy feeling of being surrounded by like-minded assholes and douchebags who reinforce their racist violent leanings, so they feel emboldened to actually, y’know, do something.

Most of them will chicken out before the actual deed, but some will not.

Comment #2: attack_laurel  on  03/23  at  11:32 AM

Don’t forget: McVeigh was able to do what he did because he was a very smart but horribly misguided young man.  I’m not sure so many of these people pack that sort of brain power, but there are enough of them to find that one or two.

Comment #3: Ms Kate  on  03/23  at  11:39 AM

“Now, they have the warm fuzzy feeling of being surrounded by like-minded assholes and douchebags who reinforce their racist violent leanings, so they feel emboldened to actually, y’know, do something. “

I like to hope that this outlet of political activity is enough to head off some of the violence, instead of the opposite.  If teabaggers continue to believe they are represented and heard, they might be less likely to believe violence is the only answer.  The “false sense of legitimacy” you mention might turn out to be a good thing.

Comment #4: anoNY  on  03/23  at  11:45 AM

“Peter out or get crazier?”

...yes!  Pandagon is a both/and blog…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  03/23  at  11:46 AM

I was talking to a couple of friends about this yesterday and I think they’re going to get crazier, because they’ve insulated themselves enough, they’ve inculcated their beliefs between themselves, and there’s enough shared “energy” to keep them going.

Basically, the teabaggers are turning into Pentecostals. When one person speaks in tongues, they’re mentally disturbed and people avoid them. When you get a bunch of them together, they start to normalize it and speaking in tongues not only becomes the natural way of things, but there comes a degree of one-upsmanship. Their community validates and insulates them, gives them a feeling of a righteous struggle, and they can feed off of each other and reach new heights (depths?) of craziness because proving your hard-coreness is more important than stepping back and saying “holy shit, we look like a bunch of wackaloons.”

The right-wing in the early nineties was gaining momentum and building followers right up until that firefighter pulled the dying baby out of the Federal Building. When that happened, a LOT of people got jolted awake and realized that their macho manlyman Red Dawn fantasies just killed a bunch of little kids and stepped back. The second a kid dies at the hands of this lunatic mob, the teabaggers will deflate like someone stuck their balls in a freezer. It’s going to happen: their “leaders” in the media may think they have control of the situation but they don’t. You can’t whip a mob into a frenzy like this and then expect to keep control of it. Bad shit is coming.

Comment #6: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/23  at  11:49 AM

I think it will turn violent and suspect that the Secret Service will be getting even busier.

Comment #7: Woodrowfan  on  03/23  at  11:52 AM

Its not like they always lose. They won on gun control even if they like to pretend they are losing ground. They just need similar culturally significant wins to keep on going and they get those at state level as in no more anti discrimination laws, charging women who had miscarriages with manslaughter etc.

Comment #8: pharmakos  on  03/23  at  11:55 AM

Once they were quarantined in my mind (this involved taking certain Facebook contacts’ tea party-like ramblings out of my news feed), the question became moot.

Comment #9: norbizness  on  03/23  at  12:09 PM

Personally what keeps me up at night is knowing that Blackwater is owned by one of these wackaloons. I vote for crazier, and I remind you all that at least one of them owns a private army.

Comment #10: BlackBloc  on  03/23  at  12:12 PM

It’ll get crazier—a lot crazier—for a while. It’ll simmer down fast the first time a teabagger winds up with a large body count. Once that happens, they’ll all run for the hills as fast as the militias faded after the OKC bombing.

So yeah, I’d expect violence before things ratchet back. Hopefully, the feds will go ahead and crack down on the extremists instead of letting them fester in their hidey-holes again…

Comment #11: Scott  on  03/23  at  12:13 PM

Don’t forget: McVeigh was able to do what he did because he was a very smart but horribly misguided young man.  I’m not sure so many of these people pack that sort of brain power, but there are enough of them to find that one or two.

The wingers did a better job of distancing themselves from McVeigh in the 90s than the current GOoPers have done distancing themselves from the guy who crashed his plane into the IRS or the hordes of gun-totting nutters at the anti-health care rallies.  If you see a crop of GOoPers line up behind the next domestic terrorist, it’s going to start looking worse and worse for the party as a whole.  It was the Ross Perot break from the main party that crippled the GOP after Reagen.  Now the Republican Leadership is fighting like mad to keep that from happening again this time around.

That said, you’ve got strong GOP victories in Virginia and Massechuetts and New Jersey.  You’ve got hotly contested elections staging up in more than a few blue states - California leaps to mind.  The Republicans only need to keep momentum till November.  A series of high profile victories and legislative gains can keep the Tea Party movement burning.

Of course, on the flip side, if the Tea Baggers cause upsets in states like Nevada and Florida, I can see the party earning a Ralph Nader style reputation, at which point the bottom will fall out of the RNC funded astroturf.

Comment #12: Zifnab25  on  03/23  at  12:13 PM

I didnt watch the video, but the first thing that came to mind when I saw the still image was Juan and Evita…

I vote for crazier.

Comment #13: orangelion03  on  03/23  at  12:21 PM

Kunstler put it thusly: “If the Republicans keep going this way, they’ll end up with something worse than Naziism: a party that hates everything but believes in absolutely nothing.”

I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.

t’ll simmer down fast the first time a teabagger winds up with a large body count. Once that happens, they’ll all run for the hills as fast as the militias faded after the OKC bombing.

Haven’t they already established the No True Teabagger principle to deal with exactly this situation?

Comment #14: Dunc  on  03/23  at  12:29 PM

Zifnab, I live in MA and that wasn’t a “strong GOP victory”.  It was a massive loss for the Democratic clique that has so completely lost touch with the mainstream voters of Massachusetts that it doesn’t even understand that people actually get to vote on who runs for office and who gets that office.  They think they just get to pick their inside metaphorical fuck buddies and we’ll all just annoint them.  They don’t even seem to know when the one whose “turn” it is happens to be widely ridiculed and despised.

Comment #15: Ms Kate  on  03/23  at  12:29 PM

I’m voting for petering out as a mass movement, with individuals getting crazier.  I especially think that the ratings for Glenn Beck will go down as most people don’t notice any negative changes to their lives, and do notice things like, gee I can keep my kid on my policy.  Last night I heard a guy running for office in Idaho saying that his mother didn’t have affordable health care, but she had assured him that she wanted the family to “work something out” rather than get any government help—well, that view is going to remain in the minority; self interest is going to move lots and lots of teabaggers out of the “movement” once they realize there are good things coming their way…

Comment #16: elisabeth51  on  03/23  at  12:43 PM

Haven’t they already established the No True Teabagger principle to deal with exactly this situation?

That only helps them rationalize to themselves. It doesn’t help a bit when your neighbors won’t talk to you, when your coworkers ask security to start patting you down for weapons, or when the feds kick your door down because you corresponded with someone who blew up a hospital…

Comment #17: Scott  on  03/23  at  01:08 PM

To reply to myself—the Teabaggers are a social movement, and when their social movement gets unpopular enough, it’ll sink like a stone.

Comment #18: Scott  on  03/23  at  01:10 PM

What Scott said.  The problem isn’t how they talk to each other, it’s how quickly the rest of the country will stop tolerating their bullshit excuses when things go critical.

Comment #19: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/23  at  01:12 PM

These nuts already have elaborate masturbatory fantasies about putting Scary Brown People, wimmin, and Those Damn Seductive Evil Gheis in their place for wrecking their 1950’s sitcom-based version of The Perfect Christian White Man’s Polite Society. The Fundie Theocrazy of Dumbfuckistan is already starting to melt down (actually, that happened long before the assassination of Dr. Tiller) and I predict it will get worse. 

http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/22/1237045/democratic-offices-in-wichita.html

It’s a classic recipe:  Throw in a heaping helping each of paranoia, xenophobia & homophobia,  a generous splash of misogynistic & racist stupidity, a twist of less-than-adequate education, a measured portion of Teh Wholly Babble, and a sprinkle of questionable genetics (ala “Deliverance”).  Encourage, agitate and stir, then allow to simmer until contents are highly unstable.  Toss with the delusion of becoming a hero for The Great Cause (by any means necessary), and serve at the point of a gun.  Garnish with high explosives as desired.

Comment #20: Zephira, Queen of the Space Weasels  on  03/23  at  01:34 PM

Also from MA, and Ms. Kate is 100% correct.  Huge numbers of people did not vote for Brown, they voted against Coakley and the machine she is part of which is insanely corupt as well as out of touch.

Comment #21: helen w. h.  on  03/23  at  01:46 PM

Re: Zephira’s link: What should be interesting will be when the Mighty Revolutionary Teabag Brick-Encouragers Society gets to spend a few hours sweating out some police questioning. They may or may not get charged with anything, of course, though they’ll come out crowing about how they defeated the Evil Obama Cop System… but they’ll never tell about who they sold out in order to be allowed to go home. And once the minions start getting called in to talk to the cops, the paranoia about who sold them out will go critical. There’s a chance we may get to see Teabagger-on-Teabagger violence…

Comment #22: Scott  on  03/23  at  01:57 PM

Actually, I think it depends greatly on the state of the economy in the coming months. If people have jobs, homes and a general feeling that the warnings of islamosocialistfascism destroying the country is a bit overblown, then a majority of the folks will remain tethered enough in reality to not do anything too stupid.

Knock more teabaggers out of their homes and jobs, and they’ll see it as proof that OMG socializmz is destroying us all! If they’ve already lost their jobs and income, then I think we might reach a critical mass of people who believe they have nothing let invested in a civil society.

Comment #23: Left_Wing_Fox  on  03/23  at  02:00 PM

O/T, but did anyone else catch VP Biden saying, “This is a big fuckin’ deal!” as he was hugging President Obama during the healthcare bill signing ceremony?  I don’t think he realized the microphones picked it up.

It was awesome.

Comment #24: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  02:11 PM

I have to admit that I toyed with the idea of voting for Brown because he’d only be there two years before he could be removed by a better candidate, where Croakley (who lives very nearby to me) would be become a permanently installed stupidity due to the bizarre incumbent worship that goes down in these parts.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  03/23  at  02:13 PM

Its not like they always lose. They won on gun control even if they like to pretend they are losing ground.

I would like to point out striking down the DC gun ban and now Chicago’s are constitutionally sound.  Whether you believe in gun rights or not they’re written into the constitution as a protected freedom and incorporation was inevitable due to the trending powers of the Federal government.  I don’t know if teabaggers really claim it as a victory but anybody who supports gun ownership (including a vast majority of rank and file democrats) wanted this too.

As for the whole tea party movement they’re going to peter out sooner rather than later.  It really depends on November, if they only pick up a few seats or democrats gain seats the movement will drop like a lead balloon.  In the mean time it will get crazier, they jumped the shark with health care reform.  Do you think they care what it takes to lie about new legislation anymore?  They’ve compared life saving insurance to socialist hell dictatorships.  They have no where to go and the leadership knows it.  If Obama & congress can manage one or two more minor victories on legislation and parade McCain’s comments around the campaign then I think winning in November is assured and will finish off the Tea Party.

I wish somebody would tell the congressman who suggest secession that is technically a crime, in fact it is the sole high crime the United States has.  Since he controls no army and the National Guard are nationalized and organized units tend to be made up of distant members the likelihood of any succession working is so nil it is laughable.  I’m all for the capitol police going to his office and serving and warrant just to watch him squirm in front of a grand jury.  I’m sure he wouldn’t get charged, but put a fire under his ass and let him know we’re watching.

Comment #26: Xeranar  on  03/23  at  02:22 PM

The correct answer is that this whole demographic is going to die out in the next 20 years All these people seem to be 60 or older. Now, this doesn’t mean that all Semiors are Teabaggers—no, just the contingent that voted for George Wallace in ‘68. I bet there is close to 1:1 overlap.

But they’re going to die of old age soon. 65+ was the only age demographic McCain won.

Comment #27: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  02:49 PM

With regards to November, Republicans peaked too early and they know it That’s why they’re freaking out.

Comment #28: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  02:50 PM

In the mean time it will get crazier, they jumped the shark with health care reform.

Their raison d’etre is to oppose health care reform. The birthers were simply a harmony part. The entire tea party movement was whipped up by conservative media to create false populist opposition to something the overwhelming majority of Americans want.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  03/23  at  02:52 PM

Gotta love how they NEVER cooperated and NEVER voted for this, yet now they are playing the “okay, we’re done playing nice and we’re REALLY going to stall immigration reform” game.

What are they going to do, bleed on us?

Comment #30: Ms Kate  on  03/23  at  02:56 PM

Meanwhile, the punditry that encourages this crap will not slow down.  It’s their jobs!  Just like you and me, Glenn Beck has to get up every day and go to work.  Except his job is keeping the outrage high by any means necessary, and keeping his audience from being truly educated by making them think they have the inside information.

George Bush’s speechwriter David Frum made an interesting point yesterday in his article in which he declared that this was in fact the Republicans Waterloo - that Rush Limbaugh got PRECISELY what he wanted with the passage of HCR.

I’m no fan of Frum’s, but his point makes sense - Limbaugh’s success is derived precisely from his ability to whine and moan about Democratic Party initiatives.  When those initiatives succeed, he can kick his scream-o-meter up a few notches, and his listeners become even more devoted to him.

Rush Limbaugh was basically a nobody until 1993 - he was nationally syndicated in 1988, but he didn’t build his huge audience until the 1990s - when Bill Clinton became president.  During the Dubya years, Limbaugh generally maintained decent Arbitron ratings, but every time Democrats succeed, his numbers go way, way up.

So if anything, in a sick and twisted bit of irony, HCR potentially makes Limbaugh even richer, despite his mouth-foaming “throw these bastards out!” screeds.

Comment #31: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  03:40 PM

I vote for petering out.  The teabag movement is a lot less powerful and numerous than the media makes it seem.  It’s mostly made up of country clubbers and retirees with too much time on their hands, and most of them will lose interest once it stops being a popular social activity.  Now that the HRC bill has passed, the Tea Party movement is already fragmenting into its component groups: the rich libertarians who came on board to fight health care and want to keep fighting health care to the grave, the classic fringe nuts who want to move on to classic fringe-nut issues like shooting illegal immigrants with their unregistered guns, the anarchists who just hate taxes and The Government in all forms, and the members who never really had any agenda beyond racism, classism and/or free-floating anger at the world.  None of these groups is fighting for anything constructive, so without a hot-button issue to react against they quickly lose cohesion.

Which is not to say there won’t be members who act out violently.  But they’ll be like the guy who crashed his plane in the IRS building: just enough on the fringe that the spokespeople for the movement can wash their hands of the deaths and claim to be shocked, *shocked* that their constant, hysterical calls for violent revolt led to actual violence.

Comment #32: Shaenon  on  03/23  at  03:42 PM

There’s a country club that will let in these toothless loons?

Comment #33: Eric_RoM  on  03/23  at  03:50 PM

Of course, on the flip side, if the Tea Baggers cause upsets in states like Nevada and Florida, I can see the party earning a Ralph Nader style reputation, at which point the bottom will fall out of the RNC funded astroturf.

Unfortunately in Florida, it is no longer going to be an upset if wingnut Marco Rubio beats Charlie Crist in the closed GOP primary - he’s long since shot way past him in the polls.  Given the fact that Kendrick Meek has nearly no realistic shot of winning the general election, I’m hoping that either Crist makes a comeback as the primary approaches, or that he pulls an Arlen Specter and joins the Democrats.  Crist can beat Rubio in a general election.  Meek probably cannot.  Rubio will win everywhere north of South Florida, and he’ll win the Cuban vote in the Miami metro.

I’m not thrilled by the prospect of Senator Charlie Crist.  But I’ll take that in a heartbeat over Senator Marco Rubio, who is already quietly being floated around the inner circles of the GOP as a 2016 presidential candidate should he win the Senate seat this November.

Comment #34: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  03:52 PM

There’s a country club that will let in these toothless loons?

Most of the leadership.  When you pan across a tea party crowd it really can be divided by sight into two groups, poor rural types and country club suburbanites.  Just look for those who don’t seem obsessed with nascar, they seem to be dressed too well for the crowd.  They’re the country club types.

Comment #35: Xeranar  on  03/23  at  03:54 PM

With regards to November, Republicans peaked too early and they know it That’s why they’re freaking out.

It appears that could wind up being true.  I still think it will hinge heavily on where the economy is this fall - if unemployment is dropping appreciably, then the Democrats have a chance to keep the losses very minimal, and might (though not likely) even gain a few seats.

In any case, I don’t see how the Republicans go up from here.  It would have been a nightmare for us if the elections were to have been held in January or February, but fortunately, we’ve still got 7 months to continue shifting the tide back our way.  Getting HCR done is huge or us.

Comment #36: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  04:02 PM

<blockquoteGotta love how they NEVER cooperated and NEVER voted for this, yet now they are playing the “okay, we’re done playing nice and we’re REALLY going to stall immigration reform” game.
What are they going to do, bleed on us?</blockquote>

How the Republicans are acting now reminds me of how my three year old niece acts when I’m babysitting her after I shut of the “Little Bear” TV show on the DVR after her quota of one hour of TV a day, she says “NOOO!” and picks up the remote and starts banging on random buttons, thinking if she does this enough “Little Bear” will come back.

Of course my niece is a lot cuter than the GOP.

Comment #37: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  04:08 PM

IOW, the Republicans saw how the adults (Democrats) got a majority and the Presidency back, and they (the toddlers) sort of know they need to do something like that, but they don’t quite know how and they’re flailing about looking ridiculous.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  04:14 PM

Healthcare reform comes at what cost?  You see the Cornhusker Kickback, a provision in the bill that compells people to get coverage or risk fines, and a bunch of leftists patting themsellves on the back despite the fact women’s reproductive rights are still compromised.  Why are you so happy this bill was passed?!  Because the Tea Baggers have egg on their faces?!  This bill violates the 13th Am as well as the 10th and possibly the 14th & 5th.  Ignore the Tea Party but read your Constitution.

Comment #39: Prankaplegic  on  03/23  at  04:17 PM

<blockquoteComment #39: Prankaplegic on 03/23 at 02:17 PM</blockquote>

Welcome back, urdsama.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  04:22 PM

The hallmark of a fanatic of any stripe is to become more certain in the face of contrary evidence. When the numbers are on their side they claim the rightness of their position based on the populism alone. When they are in the minority, they claim only they are steadfast enough to hold onto the truth when everyone else is jumping from the bandwagon.

Comment #41: LanceThruster  on  03/23  at  04:25 PM

If the Democrats decide to work on immigration reform, I would bet money that the violence will happen. It will be in one of the border states, aimed at Hispanics, probably mostly women and kids, and the body count will be high.

Not that immigration reform isn’t necessary and important, but it will send these desperate crazies right over the edge and give them a brand-new and much more vulnerable group to vent their hatred on.

Our best hope is if the economy picks up and these people all go back to day trading their stock portfolios or selling Amway or whatever they did before.

Comment #42: sophronia  on  03/23  at  04:36 PM

They will go home because no one is paying for buses to bring them to DC anymore. And as stupid as most of them are, I can’t help but think that they’re beginning to catch on that the men and women protecting government property are pretty damn good with guns themselves. Just ask anyone who works at the Pentagon.

Comment #43: DC Fem  on  03/23  at  04:39 PM

A cogent and thought-provoking answer to a question that has been floating around my head for days. I know I’m not being particularly constructive, but I really enjoyed reading this piece.

Comment #44: Seize  on  03/23  at  04:49 PM

Most of them will peter out into low-level grumbling, egged on by Faux and Rush. A few, however, will go seriously crazy—McVeigh crazy, Oswald crazy. They’ll have to sit through a few more years of an African-American President getting things done, and they can’t bloody stand it.

What I’m curious about is if the congressional Dems learned anything from this experience of health insurance reform. They watered it down, gave into wingnut demands regarding abortion, removed a true public option, built in corporate welfare for private insurers and big pharma—and still, every Republican in the House voted nay and McCain promised still more obstructionism. It’s time for the Dems to focus on consolidating their majority and using it instead of dickering with the GOP.

Why are you so happy this bill was passed?!

As indicated I’m not happy that this particular watered-down, corporate-welfare-infused bill was the one that was passed, but I’m happy that any bill passed, if only to break the taboo that health insurance reform automatically places the country on the road to tyranny and slavery. It’s a start at de-coupling health coverage from corporate servitude, and in a country where 25% of the voters are ignorant morons I’ll take that victory.

Speaking of ignorant morons, the talking points (that’s all they are) that this bill violates the 10th and 13th Amendments are laughable—a dim-witted pre-law student dismantle them in 5 minutes, and around here you’re dealing with people a bit more knowledgeable than that.

Not that immigration reform isn’t necessary and important, but it will send these desperate crazies right over the edge and give them a brand-new and much more vulnerable group to vent their hatred on.

The so-called immigration issue is also where the neoCons and moneyCons will part ways with the Teabagger Know-Nothings. The former groups (including the Koch family that laid the Teabagger astroturf in the first place) actually like cheap labour, and differ from the Dems only in that they’d prefer a multi-generational European-style guest worker scheme rather than the sort of real path to citizenship Ted Kennedy proposed.

If the Dems have the guts to push forward that kind of reform, they’d ensure that the American right tears itself apart.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  03/23  at  04:58 PM

If the Dems have the guts to push forward that kind of reform, they’d ensure that the American right tears itself apart.

Exactly, it would pretty much cut off the Teabaggers from their funding and leadership, and make white moderate voters squeamish about voting for Republicans since they don’t want to be associated with open racists.

Comment #46: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  05:01 PM

They might even be afraid that their followers will turn on them with the same hate that they now display towards the Left if they ease back on the rhetoric.

Already happened to Stupak with the “baby killer” remark.

The thing is, these teabaggers think they are a majority and that somehow most of America has been taken over by treachery.  Sarah Palin tells them this.  Glenn Beck tells them this.  Rush tells them this.  Bill O’Reilly tells them this.

They are the ‘real’ Americans!

They truly do not understand that, while 23% is a lot of people, it’s a distinct minority.  That most Americans wanted health reform.  That most Americans want Medicare and Social Security.  That reality is NOT what is shown them on Fox.

Because they do not understand what a minority they really are, some of them will get violent.  We’ve already seen their lame attempt at “Kristallnacht” with the window breaking.  My money’s on most of them not even understanding that they are acting like 1930s Nazis, though without the power structure.

See, most of them saw the crowds protesting in DC on Fox and thought those were tea baggers.  They don’t understand that more people were protesting the Iraq/Afghanistan wars than the tea party and that 50x as many were there marching for immigration reform.  That’s over 100,000 people marching FOR reform that were ignored by ‘news’ outlets.

I very very much want immigration to be taken up.  It’s the sure path to Democratic wins…when the full-blown hatred is out in the open, and that’s EXACTLY what will happen if GOPers try to debate reform, they’ll turn off even more people.

Who’s going to vote for men (mostly) who want to restore pre-existing conditions and eliminate Social Security?  Racists, that’s who.

Comment #47: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/23  at  05:01 PM

Taking up immigration reform now would also doom John McCain in Arizona.

Comment #48: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  05:07 PM

Exactly, it would pretty much cut off the Teabaggers from their funding and leadership, and make white moderate voters squeamish about voting for Republicans since they don’t want to be associated with open racists.

Well, the establishment Republicans would be pushing the gastarbeiter plan prefered by their corporate sugar daddies, and most moderate conservatives would still get on board with that (it’s basically a formalisation of illegal immigrant labour). But that still leaves the 25% Know-Nothing base, who can be easily alienated from the scheme with a little black propaganda from our side and with the help of useful idiots like Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs and Glen Beck.

You think Stupak had it bad, wait ‘til they see how they react to a GOP Rep who says anything besides “kick them Mekskins back over the border an’ build a 2000-mile-long wall to keep ‘em out.”

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  03/23  at  05:14 PM

Taking up immigration reform now would also doom John McCain in Arizona.

Not to mention any Republican representing a district dominated by construction, agriculture or food processing corporate interests, border state or not. It would be “get-out-the-popcorn” time, especially if the Dems do the right thing and follow the Kennedy plan.

Comment #50: Gracchus.  on  03/23  at  05:20 PM

If immigration reform is taken up, and McCain goes down in the primary, I wonder if the dem there would have any decent chance at winning the seat from that absolute baffoon, who I swear looks exactly like Magilla the Gorilla.

Comment #51: JennyLI  on  03/23  at  07:12 PM

If immigration reform is taken up, and McCain goes down in the primary, I wonder if the dem there would have any decent chance at winning the seat from that absolute baffoon

That’s the idea. The seat goes from longshot Dem pick-up to 50/50 once Hayworth wins the primary.

I thought he always looked more like Fred Flintstone, myself.

Comment #52: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  07:55 PM

Er, I mean Barney Rubble. Got my Flintstones characters mixed up there.

Comment #53: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  07:56 PM

I just think that pushing their racist buttons is the best philosophy.

You’re still going to get some Coakley-type situations with Blue Dog or otherwise incompetent/corrupt Democrat running and people wanting to get rid of the incumbent.  But if we fire up the racism, they’ll primary racists, and, well, I really think the tide has turned on that account.

(Yes, I mixed metaphors.  My degree is still valid.)

Barack Obama won the national election with only 45% of the white vote.  Younger people are generally less racist, and the country is less and less lily white.

Running on the Whites-Only platform is a loser.  And make no mistake, a huge chunk of the 23%ers are rabid racists.

Comment #54: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/23  at  08:09 PM

They will go home because no one is paying for buses to bring them to DC anymore.

True enough.  Dick Armey’s FreedomWorks has already gone on record saying that they will not be spending any money to support repeal of HC law…. probably because they realize ithat repeal efforrts will be a pointless waste of time.

Comment #55: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  08:16 PM

Yeah, even if every open seat was won by the GOP, they’d only have 59 seats.  they’d pass a repeal, maybe, and Obama would veto it.

They’d never get 67 votes to override.

HCR is law.  Now let’s hope we can make it more of a real reform.

Comment #56: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/23  at  08:43 PM

I have just read “Twilight” by Brendan DuBois.  This involves a Canadian UN team member searching through rural America for signs of war crimes - after an EMP terrorist attack, a stream of (blue state) refugees left the cities and were greeted by (red state) militia, who proceeded to pillage, rape and murder many of them.

Seems implausible until you consider carefully whether the conditions that led to the Serb/Bosnian conflict might be mirrored in the divides in current-day America.

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/23  at  09:07 PM

Seems implausible until you consider carefully whether the conditions that led to the Serb/Bosnian conflict might be mirrored in the divides in current-day America.

Sure, because the only thing holding the United States together for all these years was a vicious dictator. Just like Yugoslavia! We also write in a different alphabet from red staters and have a centuries old ethnic conflict with them.

Seriously, you read too much apocalyptic fiction.

Comment #58: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  09:17 PM

Barack Obama won the national election with only 45% of the white vote.

And if you take out the 65+ whites, he won the white vote.

Comment #59: Ben D.  on  03/23  at  09:19 PM

Comment #26: Xeranar on 03/23 at 12:22 PM

I would like to point out striking down the DC gun ban and now Chicago’s are constitutionally sound.  Whether you believe in gun rights or not they’re written into the constitution as a protected freedom and incorporation was inevitable due to the trending powers of the Federal government.  I don’t know if teabaggers really claim it as a victory but anybody who supports gun ownership (including a vast majority of rank and file democrats) wanted this too.

Do you mean “constitutionally sound” in the sense of “it’s what I wanted”?  I don’t see where in the Constitution it spells out that you have a right to have handguns—it says the “right to bear arms shall not be infringed,” without saying whether that means the action of bearing some kinds of arms, or what kinds of arms you may bear.  Do you think there’s a constitutional right to own and use artillery pieces?

Comment #42: sophronia on 03/23 at 02:36 PM

If the Democrats decide to work on immigration reform, I would bet money that the violence will happen. It will be in one of the border states, aimed at Hispanics, probably mostly women and kids, and the body count will be high.

Actually, I don’t see the the border states as being more likely than anywhere else.  The number of Hispanic immigrants has been going up all over the country.  Remember the Luis Ramírez case; it happened in Shenandoah, PA, which is rural Northeast.

Comment #47: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 03/23 at 03:01 PM

The thing is, these teabaggers think they are a majority and that somehow most of America has been taken over by treachery.  Sarah Palin tells them this.  Glenn Beck tells them this.  Rush tells them this.  Bill O’Reilly tells them this.

They are the ‘real’ Americans!

They truly do not understand that, while 23% is a lot of people, it’s a distinct minority.  That most Americans wanted health reform.  That most Americans want Medicare and Social Security.  That reality is NOT what is shown them on Fox.

Because they do not understand what a minority they really are, some of them will get violent.  We’ve already seen their lame attempt at “Kristallnacht” with the window breaking.  My money’s on most of them not even understanding that they are acting like 1930s Nazis, though without the power structure.

Yes.  This is an important point—the attackers in cases like Luis Ramírez’s, or the window breakers, usually see themselves as carrying out what they think their community wants—sometimes accurately, sometimes less so.  The rhetoric we’re seeing from the right wing today is all about this fact—it’s about creating an atmosphere where this minority is emboldened by thinking that what they want is what America Really Wants™.

Comment #59: Ben D.  on 03/23 at 07:19 PM

And if you take out the 65+ whites, [Obama] won the white vote.

But you forget that counting everybody else would make his positions seem more popular than they really are…

Comment #60: sacundim  on  03/23  at  09:45 PM

I especially think that the ratings for Glenn Beck will go down as most people don’t notice any negative changes to their lives, and do notice things like, gee I can keep my kid on my policy.

Pardon me, but you underestimate the power of selective observation.  While the CommieKenyanUrsurper is in power, wingnuts will ignore little things like the largest middle-class tax cut in history, and concentrate on the true signs of the impending FascistApocalypse, like census takers asking questions.

Comment #61: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/23  at  09:59 PM

searching through rural America for signs of war crimes

It’s been done already:

Sort of Civil War version of “Schindler’s List” looks at the atrocities that occurred in the 1864 prisoner-of-war camp run by the Confederacy in Georgia. The prison originally planned to house 8000, eventually swelled to 33,000 which left little shelter, food or water for the prisoners and unclean conditions.

Andersonville

Comment #62: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/24  at  12:27 AM

Do you mean “constitutionally sound” in the sense of “it’s what I wanted”?  I don’t see where in the Constitution it spells out that you have a right to have handguns—it says the “right to bear arms shall not be infringed,” without saying whether that means the action of bearing some kinds of arms, or what kinds of arms you may bear.  Do you think there’s a constitutional right to own and use artillery pieces?


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


No, do you mean to argue with me because you disagree?  The right to bear arms is rather simple language to mean firearms, it was shorthand for the day because nobody had yet invented the revolver, semi-automatic rifle, or really any variation there of.  So they simply called all rifles & pistols arms or firearms.  Artillery did however exist and was called ARTILLERY.  So no, the 2nd amendment doesn’t protect the citizen in the event of them owning a piece of artillery but depending on the state most citizens can own antique artillery that is in firing condition. 


Your argument hinges on you using only a small portion of the amendment to try and cut down the meaning.  Which is rather insidious, regardless of whether you personally believe in the right to own firearms has nothing to do with the constitution.  So, the right to KEEP and to BEAR arms makes perfect sense.  To keep would mean to own and possess without infringement.  To bear would mean we have a right to use arms within reason to defend ourselves, our property, and any other constraint placed on us by the legislation of the land.  The DC gun ban removes the right to bear arms on a fundamental level.  The same applies to the Illinois gun ban.  How hard is to recognize a concealed carry permit system?  People have a right to keep and bear arms at will.  Nobody has a right to use arms unjustly.  So what is your argument really doing besides you stamping your feet going “la la la! Guns are evil, I just hate you because you disagree!” 


Your heart seems to be in the right place, but go brush up on your supreme court civil liberties before coming and telling me I am just using some loose definition of the constitution to support my own opinion.  The more inclusion of amendments to apply to states the better.  The 2nd amendment has long been a right that is neither left or right.  The left in the 1980s decided to ban guns because of some misconstrued idea about guns and violence correlating when it appears that upon further study it is many other cultural factors that are to directly blame for violence in the US.  But I would still vote a gun control liberal in over a 2nd amendment supporting conservative.  So, I leave you with this, think before you attack.  Your argument didn’t hold weight then.

Comment #63: Xeranar  on  03/24  at  12:32 AM

The more I read Roger Griffin on fascism, the more teabaggers worry me. They’ve got the narratives of “productive” elements of society, degeneration and rebirth down pat.

Comment #64: Matty  on  03/24  at  06:05 AM

OT

To keep would mean to own and possess without infringement.

I’m not sold on that.

We’re talking about men who lived in a time before automatic weapons.  Where hunting was a source of sustenance for many if not most.  Where stockpiling dozens of automatic weapons capable of killing hundreds in minutes was not even imagined.

Each person having a mini-army was NOT the goal—these men didn’t even let all white men vote.  You had to own land, too.  They certainly didn’t think every person was responsible and capable.  And they specifically mention a well-run militia—so they didn’t think lone crazies wanting to have a gun was a good idea.

Concealed carry laws are bad things.  Having everyone packing heat like in the Old West or a bad movie is a bad idea in reality.  Guns don’t actually make people safer, especially since they tend to be killed with their own or a family member’s gun.

Just the other day, a woman in Chicago was robbed at gunpoint.  She was pissed and screamed and took off after him, even though he shot at her.  Two other guys tackled him and she sat on him till the cops came.  Only the criminal had a gun, and he’s going to jail.

You can’t ignore the technological changes that have happened with guns nor the differences in our society.  Giving everyone in Chicago a handgun makes even less sense than giving all the cops Tasers.  Pretending that men who lived 200 years ago understood modern weaponry and its use better than we do, more that they meant for every Tom, Dick and Harry to have an AK47 that he could parade around in public is just stupid.

I mean seriously.  We’re supposed to be civilized.

Comment #65: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/24  at  09:15 AM

I’m not sold on that.

Ok, that’s fair.  But most constitutional lawyers agree that is what the word keep means.  You’re arguing the idea of fluidity in an amendment which I can agree with to a certain extent, but the most basic concept of an amendment can’t be changed just because technology is better. 

I own several handguns, rifles, and shotguns out of a sake of variety.  Does that make me a crazed mini-army who can’t be trusted?  Is it your right to tell me when I can’t be trusted?  The government is a fundamentally reactive body.  Our laws are designed for after the fact and while it does mean putting trust in your fellow man no matter how bad or good he may be you must do that or else you’re starting to accept authoritarian rule. 

Concealed carry laws are bad things.  Having everyone packing heat like in the Old West or a bad movie is a bad idea in reality.  Guns don’t actually make people safer, especially since they tend to be killed with their own or a family member’s gun.

Actually, all the current data says the opposite.  Very few people die from their own gun or a family member’s.  In fact it verges on statistically insignificant, but the fictional media (i.e. drama programs not news) portrays it as more common.  I think that approach makes it a cute moral play but just unrealistic.  On top of the right to keep and bear arms, concealed carry is not a defined right by the constitutional amendment it doesn’t prohibit it and all concealed carry does is allow people to conceal it rather than wear it exposed on the hip as the military and police do.

Just the other day, a woman in Chicago was robbed at gunpoint.  She was pissed and screamed and took off after him, even though he shot at her.  Two other guys tackled him and she sat on him till the cops came.  Only the criminal had a gun, and he’s going to jail.

Anecdotal evidence is a really bad example.  I could cite thousands of examples in the US every year where people successfully defend themselves with a weapon.  Just because you have a personal problem with them doesn’t make them fundamentally bad.  I recognize the march of technology but the people in power for close to two hundred years never saw a reason to try and prohibit guns until the 1970s/80s when urban mayors and such decided it was more cost effective to try and ban gun ownership then pay more police to patrol the streets.  I’m not saying that reasonable gun laws that extend the sentences in a serious manner for criminals are a bad idea but outright bans just serve no purpose but as political red meat to those who have a personal agenda against ownership because they fail to understand the basic right given by the 2nd amendment.

I find it kind of ironic for you to claim gun ownership as a whole as uncivilized yet the vast majority of guns are never used in any violent crime.  Most will never be shot at more than targets at a range.  So why should I have to give up a right for you to feel civilized?  I thought the point of being civilized was that I could own a weapon and not use it in frustration or anger?

Comment #66: Xeranar  on  03/24  at  10:05 AM

Certainly they didn’t mean automatic weapons or heavy artillery, which is why private citizens are banned from owning them (even if it wasn’t illegal they’re prohibitively expensive, a fully automatic gun can run you 3-5k each.) “Arms”=hand guns, rifles, shotguns. Weapons that can be used for defense. A fully automatic rifle or machine gun (and anything heavier than even that) is NOT a defensive weapon! It’s made for offense, period.

Comment #67: Ben D.  on  03/24  at  11:33 AM

@57: Yeah, for the moment, all this Red State/Blue State civil war hype is political science fiction little-grounded in reality. It was a stupid idea in the 1860s when the Confederacy committed economic suicide by going to war with their most important industrial partner lacking the navy to secure trade with the other. It’s not going to happen for at least the next few decades given that the United States are increasingly interdependent.

Comment #68: CBrachyrhynchos  on  03/24  at  05:04 PM

“even if it wasn’t illegal they’re prohibitively expensive, a fully automatic gun can run you 3-5k each.”

And that’s the low-end, junk autos. A decent full auto gun (M16, AK-47, MP5, or anything tripod mounted) is going to start at 15k and can go as high 40k. And that’s on top of the $200 tax stamp, 3-6 month background check, being fingerprinted and photographed, and getting written permission from your local chief LEO. As a result of all that, the ownership of full auto weapons is primarily a pursuit of the most devoted of firearms enthusiasts. In fact, there are only 200,000 full auto weapons in the hands of American civilians compared to the 250 million of all the other types of firearms.

And as for the theory that concealed carry is bad, if it’s so bad, why is it that none of the 48 states that allow concealed carry have sought to repeal it?

Comment #69: Gerald  on  03/25  at  01:15 AM

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

No, do you mean to argue with me because you disagree?  The right to bear arms is rather simple language to mean firearms, it was shorthand for the day because nobody had yet invented the revolver, semi-automatic rifle, or really any variation there of.”

“Arms” in 18th century speak are edged weapons - pikes, swords, axes and such

“Rest your firelock - poise your firelock - shoulder your firelock - Fix Bayonets - shoulder your arms”

it wasnt an “arm” till it had point bits of metal on it

but that is beside the point - the “original intent of the founders” for all 10 amendments in the BoR was to get the Constitution ratified - nothing more

on the 2nd amendment specifically, those who didnt want a federal army lost the debate.  The feds wouldnt have to beg the states for troops.  The 2nd (and 3rd) amendments copied 17th cen language to take the wind out of the sails of anti-federalist arguments in the state houses

Its as if we wrote the constitution today with an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy and to shut Stupak up we threw a fetal personhood amendment on - ok, sounds good to him, but it didnt change the absolute right to terminate a pregnancy

Comment #70: jefft452  on  03/26  at  09:39 PM

“To keep would mean to own and possess without infringement.  To bear would mean we have a right to use arms within reason to defend ourselves, our property, and any other constraint placed on us by the legislation of the land”

18th cen speak Keep = pay for maintnance/upkeep of as in “his mistress is a kept women”; Bear Arms = close order drill as in “he stands with a military bearing”

Comment #71: jefft452  on  03/26  at  09:45 PM
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