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Saturday Battlestar Galactica blogging: Is “BSG” sexist? edition

Unfortunately, due to family obligations, the beginning of South by Southwest, and trying to cram in a ton of work before South by Southwest, I’m not completely caught up on “Battlestar Galactica”.  I did see last week’s placeholder episode, but I didn’t see last night’s.  But that doesn’t mean you should treat this thread as a free-for-all of discussing last night’s episode.  Don’t worry about spoiling me—-I need an excuse to avoid following a thread so that I get some paid work done. 

In lieu of writing about last night’s episode, then, I’ll address this blogpost that came out on March 5th at Slate’s XX Factor.  Juliet Lapidos is telling us to set aside the belief that “Battlestar Galactica” is feminist, just because it’s the one show on TV that I know of that has really exploited its sci-fi premise to imagine a world where women actually have equality.  She tepidly accepts that this is a step in the right direction before going whole hog on how bad it is.  I agree with some of her criticisms, but the more I thought about it, the more I think what bothered me about the post is she seems to get everything backwards, starting with her basic premise, which is that the show is retrograde sexism with a few feminist bright spots, whereas I think the show is very feminist, with a few blindspots that stem from the writers being mostly male and mostly stuck in sci-fi conventions.  You cannot brush off Starbuck and Roslin so easily—-these characters are more than feminist flourishes, but also an attempt to gender-fuck the original show.  (Boomer, too, in case you forget, was originally a man.)  More than that, the writers have done a remarkable job on not allowing latent prejudices to make the female characters a little less-than. It’s not just that Roslin’s smarter than Adama, and Starbuck’s craftier and more skilled than anyone ever, and Sharon/Athena is both a genius pilot and technician, and that Six is smarter than a famous scientist like Baltar, and that men and women tend to have the same mix of lust and love-yearning when it comes to sex.  It’s the ease at which they portray women moving through their world, which is a remarkable fictional achievement because it doesn’t really have a real-world corollary. 

Lapidos, I think, gets a lot of stuff backwards, beginning with this:

Perhaps because science fiction has historically appealed to men who don’t leave home much, the genre has often used alien mores and alien technology to rationalize pornographic depictions of near-naked women. (Think Jabba the Hutt forcing Princess Leia to wear that ridiculous gold bikini in Return of the Jedi.)

Maybe she’s trying to be generous, but I actually think, when you’re seeing pornographic depictions of women in non-pornographic entertainment, it’s not because the creators presume an all-male (and all shut-in) audience, but because they’re cultivating an all-male audience.  A seemingly small difference, but one with major ramifications.  There’s nothing about sci-fi that is inherently masculine, even if it’s inherently appealing to geeks, who aren’t necesssarily shut-ins, as she implies.  There’s plenty of female geeks, even if they’re invisible in a culture that accepts a lot more diversity in men than in women. 


No, the abundance of sexualized women without sexualized men in sci-fi (as well as comedies, mysteries, horror movies, video games, you name it) isn’t a mere result of a male audience, but a way of signaling to a male audience that this is for them, and they are not, in any way, going to run into threats to their heterosexual manhood by watching it.*  Depending on the circumstance, it signals to female audience members to stay out or accept second class status.  This is as true of “Star Wars” as it is of Judd Apatow comedies where schluby guys end up with smoking hot women.  Notably, the nekkid lady syndrome also comes along with a whole buttload of stereotypes about women’s inadequacies—-women can be smart but not funny, funny but not pretty, smart and hot but not playful, etc. Taking that into consideration, the way that a few female characters on “BSG” that are hyper-sexualized (okay, mostly Six) is actually pretty different.  Six is unworldly beautiful and prone to wearing skimpy clothes.  She might also be the smartest character on the show and she’s got a twinkly sense of humor.  She owns every room she walks into, and has a disturbing charisma.  She’s one of the most textured characters on the show, in direct contrast to how smoking hot ladies tend to be nothing but eye candy, to the degree that even putting an otherwise smart character in smoking hot lady clothes often means you shut off her brain.  My take on this is that Six is supposed to be a constant reminder that Cylons are robots, because everything about her is excessive—-she’s the most super-human Cylon. 

Battlestar is no exception. When Cylons die, their memories download into an identical-looking body on a resurrection ship. This process, almost without exception, happens off-screen for the male Cylons, but when a fembot dies she flies through a vaguely fallopian-looking tube then wakes up nude in a vat of goo.* Overtly, these are birth scenes. But they are hypersexualized—with lingering thigh-shots and orgasmic-sounding gasping. Cylon ringleader Ellen Tigh’s resurrection in this season’s “No Exit” is among the most egregious: Covered in gelatinous lubricant, she writhes and moans. On realizing that a Peeping Tom robot has been observing the whole process, she gets a creepily post-coital look on her face.

This strikes me as the most fair criticism, but it also skips over the fact that the camera lingers over male bodies in various states of undress as well.  It’s fair from equal, though, so I’ll let her have this one.  I don’t care if something is sexualized—-in fact, go ahead, appeal to my prurient side, or even use sex to make me uncomfortable (which was, to my mind, the point of the Ellen awakening)—-but just make it equal, please. 

But it seems to me her argument is based on the fact that the show observes the same double standards of beauty and who has to be sexual objects (though less so than other shows), and so she kind of pieces together some other, weaker evidence to back her up.  And I’m not so keen on this. 

Cally’s death is an example of a worrisome trend: The main female characters are all dying, dead, or not human. Ellen, Sharon, D’Anna, and Tory Foster—all strong female characters, have all turned out to be Cylons, and Starbuck was recently revealed as a half-Cylon hybrid. Adm. Cain, for a time the highest ranking officer in the military, was assassinated; Cally was murdered; Dee, Capt. Lee Adama’s neglected wife, committed suicide; and Starbuck’s rival, Capt. Louanne Katraine, pretty much did, too—she sacrificed herself while guiding civilian ships through a dangerous star cluster. The president, perhaps the most-talked-about example of Battlestar’s great female leads, is dying of breast cancer. In isolation, none of these cases has much significance. But taken together they suggest a troubling, if unintentional message: Women—the human ones, anyway—just can’t hack it when the going gets rough.

To me, this is evidence that female characters are as important as the male ones, honestly.  The main determinant on who is a Cylon, it seems, is who is important enough to be one.  The show wraps up everyone’s storyline by killing them instead of relegating them to the background, and they do this to raise the stakes and remind the audience on a regular basis that survival really is in question.  My bigger quarrel is not that they have so many female main characters who are in danger of going Cylon or dying—-again, these are evidence that you matter, not that you don’t—-but that minor characters that don’t get Cylon’d or killed all seem to be men.  If pilots are mix gender, why can Marines who march around all the time be mixed, too?

This one bothered me a lot:

Even more insidious than the lack of female friendships are the casual threats of rape made throughout the series. In Season 2, a “Cylon interrogator” attempts to violate Sharon, a Cylon pilot and the only East Asian on the show, but her husband Helo intervenes in the nick of time. In this season’s “The Oath,” Helo fights with a mutineer—“Frak you,” he says (that’s Battlestar‘s four-letter-word variant), and the mutineer responds, “Sorry, I’m saving myself for your … wife.” He means it. Rape is a trope on the show: Starbuck finds herself in a bizarre insemination farm on the Cylon-occupied planet Caprica, and Adm. Cain orders some cronies to rape and torture a Cylon in “Razor.” Naturally the show doesn’t condone rape, but it’s discomfiting that the writers drop sexual violence into the script so often without comment. If nothing else, this pervasive threat—directed only at women—negates the idea that Battlestar conjures a gender-blind universe.

You see feminists push this idea a lot—-that rape is a special form of assault so terrible that it can’t be used as a plot device in fiction, you know, unlike murder.  I don’t like this, because we already see more murder onscreen than rape, and rape is infinitely more common in real life.  I don’t condone casual depictions of rape, because rape is tolerated in our culture, and you add to that by making it Not A Big Deal onscreen.  (In contrast, you can probably get away with showing murder casually, because most people don’t make the leap to murdering casually, but not so with rape.)  But if you make a point of portraying rape as this unbelievable horror, then I’m cool with it.  I figure, as long as you’re being responsible, you’re raising visibility of an invisible crime.  When feminists blindly condemn all use of rape as a plot device, they make rape precious, and that bothers me, because it’s not precious.  In fact, I’m getting upset writing this, because I think it’s actually that counter-productive to make rape too precious to be shown onscreen. For fuck’s sake, the show depicts genocide.

Natch, the point is that “BSG”, in my opinion, handles the topic responsibly, which means treating rape like a crime of power and not that of a man who just got too horny and lost control.  Every single rape or attempted rape is tied directly to male domination or control of women’s bodies.  They show them raping prisoners because that’s what torturing prison guardsdo.  The only way they could have been more responsible is to show that they rape male prisoners, too, so score one against the show.  I particularly liked that forced pregnancy is shown as rape, because I agree that mandatory childbirth is a form of sexualized violence against women, and that people who, say, protest at abortion clinics are part of the rape culture.  This especially added poignancy to the abortion ban that we’ve since found out Dr. Cottle ignores pretty much completely.  (Go, Dr. Cottle!)  My take on the sexual violence is that the humans once had a male-dominated culture, but they have had political and professional equality for women for a long time.  This strikes me as realistic—-a culture like that would indeed grant women a lot of freedom, but there would still be some threads of rape culture that hadn’t been rubbed out entirely. 

If anything, the most disturbing sexism that’s crept into the show is the patriarchal sentimentality about pregnancy.  It’s not that people are attached to pregnancy—-I would be, too, if I were in their situation—-it’s just how over the top it gets sometimes, to the point where it takes you out of the story.  I could accept that Caprica Six’s miscarriage was a tragedy without devoting an entire fucking episode to it.  If our culture were less sexist about these issues, it’d be easier to swallow, but as it stands, it’s grating.  But my main problem with it is that it’s boring.  When I step back, I have to admire that they try to portray a gender-neutral approach, where men have equal investment in domestic things as women.

I’m skipping over her complaints about how no women have friendships like Adama and Tigh’s.  No other men do, either. 

I’m honestly not sure what to think of this:

The most retrograde character is Cally, an air-maintenance specialist on the flight deck. For years, she’s harbored a girlish crush on her boss, Chief Tyrol, to no avail, until, at last, a breakthrough happens thanks to a broken jaw: Cally wakes Tyrol up from a nightmare and in a fit of angry confusion, he beats her to a pulp. Remorseful, he visits her in the hospital, and shortly thereafter, they marry. This sends the implicit message that the way to a man’s heart is through his fist—a heartily un-feminist concept—but the strange circumstances surrounding Cally’s marriage are less offensive than her death scene.

I’ve never liked that storyline because it didn’t know what it wanted to be, mainly.  Did they want to show how victims of domestic violence rationalize the violence?  They’re not inaccurate, but the problem is that it wasn’t a domestic violence incident—-it was a bona fide mistake.  Chief beat Callie up because he’s all disturbed due, we find out, to the fact that he’s a 2,000-year-old Cylon.  He was sleeping.  He has no real responsibility for his actions.  Taken out of the context of a culture that also tolerates domestic violence, the story seems to be that Callie exploited Chief’s remorse to get him to marry her, because Callie sucks.  I don’t have a problem with showing a clingy, desperate woman guilt a man into marrying her, because that happens all the time with both genders and all sexual orientations.  But if they could have only found another way for him to do something unfair to her, because a beating just seems like domestic violence, though in this one bizarre, sci-fi case, it’s not. 

She goes on to list all the other ways that Callie sucks, and yep, Callie sucks.  She even sucks in stereotypical ways.  But the problem with certain stereotypes is that everyone in the group gets cast that way, and I don’t see the point in pretending that no women ever are manipulative and hysterical.  The problem is suggesting that we all are.  I always got the impression that different planets had different sexual mores, and some were more sexist than others.  Capricans are sort of the “liberal elite”, and therefore the most feminist. I always took Callie’s character to suggest that some people hail from more conservative planets, and so it makes some sense that Callie would have specific neuroses that stem from that.  I don’t think they failed at the attempt to show that different cultures produce different people at all, since I picked up on that. 

*Funny story: Last night, because it was free with the badge, I went to check out a burlesque show at Emo’s.  I’ve not seen one in years, and was curious to see if it had gotten any better with time.  (Yes.)  I’m not mentioning this because I want to debate the feminism of burlesque (I don’t think it’s “feminist”, but it’s also not drenched in misogyny like strip clubs are), but because at the end of the show, the two male emcees came out wearing nothing but aprons and some official junk-covering, and they did a little strip tease that was actually pretty funny. But all these dudes standing in front of us, as soon as they realized what was going on, turned tail and practically stomped on us trying to get out.  Because Teh Ghey is catching, you know.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:29 PM • (78) Comments

I’ll add that the guys running out were all the more comical, because they accepted other premises—-that talent is more important that skinniness, that women being goofy about sex is fun—-that are usually also treated as threats to straight maleness.  They had no problem clapping loud for the fat lady who did a barnstorming sexy dance celebrating scotch and bacon (definitely top three in the performers), so I was actually surprised they thought Teh Ghey was catching.  Who knew?

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/14  at  01:50 PM

Perhaps because science fiction has historically appealed to men who don’t leave home much,

That bit of the sentence puzzled me - until I read the parenthetical comment:

(Think Jabba the Hutt forcing Princess Leia to wear that ridiculous gold bikini in Return of the Jedi.)

Ah. Now I got it. She’s talking movies and TV. Not books.

At least, not a good chunk of the the SciFi books I read as a kid. Ones my uncle loaned me. Ones with female leads, matriarchal alien societies, ones where poly relationships are explored. Ones with homosexual characters….

I think he was trying to tell me he “knew” and that, see, it’s okay.

Part of the fun of SciFi, for me anyway - the exploring of themes and situations which don’t mirror our own culture and society, or mirroring them yet showing their flaws in complicated and subtle ways.

When I read Vox’s take the other day on BSG and on Starbuck in particular I saw that he doesn’t get that. He complained that the show was ambiguous on who the good guys and the bad guys were. Well, too bad for him. That’s part of the complexity and the beauty of it - you have to figure it out for yourself, engage in some analysis and critical thinking, and over quite a period of time as the arc of the show progresses. I like that the show didn’t hand it to us. I like that we didn’t know everything starting with the first episode. Did the show make some missteps? Sure, and Amanda you pointed to some of them rather nicely. But on balance, it tips towards fun, at least for me, because of the other stuff, the complex stuff, the surprises, and the not-surprises.

Nicely done, Amanda.

Comment #2: teac  on  03/14  at  02:02 PM

Vox doesn’t get much, I’m afraid.  He’s fish in a barrel, but sometimes that’s fun.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/14  at  02:03 PM

Yeah.

Comment #4: teac  on  03/14  at  02:05 PM

Y’know, the Six pregnancy / miscarriage story line was, for me, a throw-away. I understand why the story arc needed it, but it was handled far to quickly for my complexity-loving self. The handling of it cheapened the impact and the import. And now the characters seem to have completely shed the emotional impact of it almost as is it didn’t happen.

Bad writers, no biscuit.

Comment #5: teac  on  03/14  at  02:08 PM

This passage from Lapidos about Cally’s death scene is just bizzare: “On realizing that Tyrol is a Cylon, Cally tries to kill herself along with her child. Then another Cylon comes along, saves the baby, and tosses Cally out of an airlock. Presumably the writing staff is trying to grapple with postpartum depression—Tyrol doesn’t help enough with the baby, pushing Cally over the edge.[...] The take-away is not that Cally has been driven to desperation by a sexist social order but that she can’t contain her feminine irrationality.”

Cally commits suicide because she finds out that her husband is a Cylon and her child is a Cylon-human hybrid. Cylons destroyed her civilization. She’s been living a lie. Granted, the male characters who find out that they’ve been bonking Cylons don’t commit suicide. I don’t think the writers were making a point about feminine irrationality.

Comment #6: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/14  at  03:16 PM

Funny, I have more to say about the comment at the end. I have never enjoyed professional women belly-dancing. I dunno; just makes me uncomfortable, to a large degree because they’re trying so hard to be sexy (most of the time). Only time I’ve enjoyed a professional belly dancer was when it was a guy. He’s great; I’ve seen him more than once at various Greek restaurants, and he’s just flirting with everyone and having so much fun.

Likewise, there was a gay pride event that my wife and I were testing our business in, and there were some burlesque dancers which mostly did not entertain me… until these two guys came up. Again, they were just having so much fun with everything, it was great. Good times.

So not all straight guys get freaked out by that kind of thing. Just most.

Comment #7: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  03/14  at  03:20 PM

Juliet Lapidos is confusing Sci/Fi with Space Opera.

Science Fiction should take one or more facet of society and extrapolate it and examine it.
Space Opera is action and adventure with “laaazers”

Star Wars = Space Opera.
Blade Runner = Science Fiction.

BSG1 = Space Opera
BSG2 = Science Fiction

Comment #8: cynickal  on  03/14  at  03:22 PM

Granted, the male characters who find out that they’ve been bonking Cylons don’t commit suicide.

Yes, but the male characters never discover that they’ve actually been growing and nurturing the enemy they despise inside their own bodies, which I can believe would be a mind-fuck that could trigger a suicide.  It would make you have to question everything you believe, and not everyone can handle that.

Since BSG does like to play on current tropes about war, it makes me think of all of the victims in former Yugoslavia who were not only raped but deliberately impregnated as an act of war.

Comment #9: Mnemosyne  on  03/14  at  03:29 PM

Granted, the male characters who find out that they’ve been bonking Cylons don’t commit suicide.

Neither do Starbuck or Admiral Cain.

Comment #10: jlk7e  on  03/14  at  03:37 PM

But the problem with certain stereotypes is that everyone in the group gets cast that way, and I don’t see the point in pretending that no women ever are manipulative and hysterical.  The problem is suggesting that we all are.

This, this, this! And, in order for shows to achieve this, they must have more than one character from any particular group. So BSG can have sucky Callie, because they also have Roslin, Starbuck, Six, Boomer, Athena, De’Anna, etc. I can’t think of any other show which has such a range of female characters, which means that they can do so much more with their storylines, because they are actual people (using the term loosely!) and not just two-dimensional stereotypes.

Pay attention, sci-fi writers/producers/show creators! If you build it (for the female audience) they will come!

Comment #11: Floyd  on  03/14  at  03:43 PM

Speaking of movies/TV with good female characters, has anyone else seen Coraline?  If not, it’s highly recommended, especially if you’re already a fan of either Henry Selick or Neil Gaiman.  I got a very interesting message from it about not trusting people who are way too eager to immediately tell you how much they love you.

Comment #12: Mnemosyne  on  03/14  at  04:00 PM

Link in case you haven’t heard of the movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0327597/

Comment #13: Mnemosyne  on  03/14  at  04:01 PM

cynickal-

You said exactly what I was trying to say. Perfect.

Comment #14: teac  on  03/14  at  04:15 PM

Cylon ringleader Ellen Tigh’s resurrection in this season’s “No Exit” is among the most egregious: Covered in gelatinous lubricant, she writhes and moans. On realizing that a Peeping Tom robot has been observing the whole process, she gets a creepily post-coital look on her face.

Christ, if that look of horror is “post-coital”, Lapidos’s love-life must be really… complicated.

So BSG can have sucky Callie, because they also have Roslin, Starbuck, Six, Boomer, Athena, De’Anna, etc. I can’t think of any other show which has such a range of female characters, which means that they can do so much more with their storylines, because they are actual people (using the term loosely!) and not just two-dimensional stereotypes.

And, for that matter, even the most sexual - Six - has a range.  We’ve seen her using seduction as a weapon on two major human characters, and she chose very different approaches on each. She’s an agent with her sexuality, not an object, a distinction she used on Baltor like a scalpel.

Comment #15: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/14  at  04:18 PM

Jeebus, after two months of Racefail ‘09, I ought to sit this one out. But…

I’ll just say that I think TV scifi has been getting, generally, better and better at portraying both gender and racial politics since its very inception. It tends to build upon what has gone before. Even BSG1, for all of its myriad faults, handled racism and feminism ever so slightly more competently, although not as ground-breakingly, as the original Star Trek did. Which is heartening, but there is still more work to do. Just look at the wreckage of the Trek franchise today.

So, how ‘bout Frank Frazetta’s BSG concept art? Dirk Bennedict wishes he was ever that cut!

Comment #16: Sarcastro  on  03/14  at  04:27 PM

Perhaps because science fiction has historically appealed to men who don’t leave home much, the genre has often used alien mores and alien technology to rationalize pornographic depictions of near-naked women.

I’m not a BSG watcher, so my comment has little relevance to the show in particular, but…

There’s also a tendency to imagine alien worlds as Egyptian/Greco/Roman, medieval/barbarian, Orientalist/exotic, or somewhere in between.  A lot of the production design for women’s costumes in SF and fantasy is essentially “harem girl” or “Cleopatra”—and then of course there’s “woman wearing minimal metal armor.”  I don’t know if the desire to create “pornographic depictions of near-naked women” came first, but there’s a lot of playing around with retro elements as well.

Comment #17: FlipYrWhig  on  03/14  at  04:41 PM

The last two weeks of BSG were both just placeholders in my opinion, but esp. last nights. Pretty much nothing happened in the last episode that wasn’t revealed in the preview. They could have easily made this last episode and the one previous into one episode and still very little would have happened in the composite episode. With just a few episodes to go you would think they would have packed more into them but no, they seem to be saving everything for the very last episode. There are still so many loose ends and questions and I am beginning to worry that the show will end without clearing a lot of things up.

Comment #18: AdamN  on  03/14  at  04:43 PM

I wasn’t paying much attention to the “6 miscarriage” episode (it was boring) but the impression I got was Six’s miscarriage was purely the result of her discovering she wasn’t Loved by Tigh.  The Cylon’s conviction that pregnancy can ONLY occur if the woman & man love one another, is a big kick in the nuts to the “rape culture”.

Comment #19: Kwillow  on  03/14  at  04:51 PM

....I’d like to add that Princess Leia *strangled* Jabba the Hut, and good for her!

Comment #20: Kwillow  on  03/14  at  04:52 PM

It’s not the SHOW that’s putting an excess of attention on procreation, it’s the Cylons.  They can’t procreate.  For me, there’s sort of a direct link to “Children of Men” and the idea that without reproduction, there is no future.  Once the Cylons lose resurrection, there really isn’t any hope except procreation. 

As for the representation of male and female sexuality, I know people had trouble with “Watchmen” for it’s stereotypical depiction of Silk Spectre, though I thought she was central to the plot, unlike, say Wonder Woman, who is almost Aquaman like in the “let’s-dream-up-a-scenario-where-she-can-help” idea.  Also, for all of Silk Spectre’s latex, I think Dr. Manhattan wins the naked award.

Finally, I thought last night’s ep was brilliant.  I realize it kind of borrowed a trick from “Lost” in that we flashback to Caperica “before the fall” (wasn’t THAT another nice Biblical allusion).  But what they did was set up and remind us what these characters are all about.  The scene with Adama and Starbuck brought a tear to my eye.  They took the necessary time out of pure plot to re-ground the characters in their humanity. Including, ironically, Caprica Six, whose humanity trumps Balthar’s.

Comment #21: Hawes  on  03/14  at  05:07 PM

At least, not a good chunk of the the SciFi books I read as a kid. Ones my uncle loaned me. Ones with female leads, matriarchal alien societies, ones where poly relationships are explored. Ones with homosexual characters….

As a genre, science fiction has come a long way and reflects the change in social mores in the broader culture.  Books from the 1960s onward tended to be more “literary” and you saw a lot more “soft” science fiction books being written that focused a lot more on the social and cultural aspects of future/alien/alternative civilizations.  Which is not to say that “hard” science fiction doesn’t also pay attention to these things, just that “hard” science fiction focuses on those issues less.

I TA’ed a course in the history of the space age, and the instructor spent a fair amount of time discussing the roots of science fiction.  He made, I thought, a pretty good argument that science fiction literature was for a long time targeted primarily at adolescent boys.

Comment #22: Linnaeus  on  03/14  at  05:28 PM

When I read that article, I really got the impression that the writer was just pissed off and didn’t like BSG but didn’t really know why.  She really didn’t get her facts right (they issued a correction about Cavil being reborn in a goo tub, and also she didn’t pick up on the fact that the “I’m saving yourself for your wife” guy is the same asshole from the Pegasus) and also the argument is incoherent.  Also, maybe I’m doing it wrong, but I’ve never thought of the cylon rebirthing gasps as orgasmic.  (I will now, though, thanks for that.)

I’ve always considered the Sharon rape scene to be an example of how to responsibly treat rape in film.  It is ugly, it is scary, it is violent, and it is not sexy.  In other words, it’s not entertainment for the audience, at least in the sense of “ooh, naked woman!”

Comment #23: LauraB  on  03/14  at  05:32 PM

I’d question whether rape is really a big trope on BG.  The rape that was stopped on Pegasus is pretty much the only time it happens.  Even the threat of rape during the mutiny came from a friend of the rapist Helo killed.  I think it’s significant that rape became tolerated, and possibly routine, on the Battlestar whose only goal was to wage aggressive war and to hell with any civilians left alive.  Almost like there was a point to be made.

(What happened to Starbuck on Caprica wasn’t rape, IMO.  Having your ovaries cut out is certainly a violation, but not rape.)

As for female cylons being shown resurrecting more than male, that’s really just because the female cylons are the more active characters, therefore they die more.  For me one of the more memorable resurrection scenes is Cavil’s, in which D’Anna immediately re-kills him.

If there’s an aspect of the show to infuriate feminists, it’d be the tendency for the female cylons to use their sexuality to get what they want, but never the reverse.  (Unless you want to count Anders and Starbuck…)  Even when Cain got flummoxed by a cylon’s sexual wiles, it was her lesbian lover.  Of course, a lesser show would have made a few scenes of their sexy makeout sessions before dropping the bridge on Cain.

Seems to me BG struck a good balance.  They could have gone out of the way to highlight their society’s perfect gender equality and made their universe a feminist utopia, but I think it’s more interesting as a slightly more egalitarian version of our own culture.

Comment #24: Jrod  on  03/14  at  05:40 PM

Um, is there a human society - real or imagined - that isn’t?

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  03/14  at  05:52 PM

As for the representation of male and female sexuality, I know people had trouble with “Watchmen” for it’s stereotypical depiction of Silk Spectre

Seems that there were two objections to that.  One was “If Silk Spectre is a superhero why can’t she protect herself?” which is evidence of massively missing the point of the film, that they were all ordinary people dressed in stupid costumes.  The other was that the rapist was given something of a redemption arc, and was shown in an explicitly sympathetic light on a few occasions, which to anyone who refused to believe they weren’t watching a popcorn superhero flick with nice neat good/evil lines meant that the Comedian was entirely forgiven and absolved of his life of horror.  Again, missing the point.

Another parallel is that the Comedian, like the crew of the Pegasus, was a soldier who was unable to disconnect from a mindset of killing and dominating.  No offense meant to any soldiers reading who don’t rape, but there’s no denying that rape and war have gone hand-in-hand for all of human history.

Comment #26: Jrod  on  03/14  at  06:02 PM

I just wanted to say that I quite liked Cally’s character. I missed a couple of episodes between her exile to the new planet and her death, so maybe I also missed parts that establish her suckitude.

Cally’s not the most exciting character in the show, but I don’t see her as a commentary on femininity.

Cally’s supposed to be very young. Also, as Amanda says, she’s supposed to be from a more conservative planet. She’s very sheltered. In Season 1 we learn that she joined the fleet at 17. We’re meant to assume that she’s been working away on the flight deck ever since. Given what we know about her character, we wouldn’t expect her to be as brash or as worldly as the slightly older female pilots.

Comment #27: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/14  at  06:13 PM

Good point, Ms. Kate, though I think in our society there is at least some understanding that rape is bad, to the extent that most rapists don’t seem to believe that they are, in fact, rapists.  I wonder if the incidence of rape is higher in the US than in other developed nations because of American’s great aptitude for bullshitting themselves.  What’s certain is that there’s a large difference between the attitudes towards women as part of the same culture and those of women as part of the enemy culture.  It’s possible that everyone on Pegasus believed rape to be a horrible, evil thing, and that’s exactly why they raped their cylon prisoners.

Comment #28: Jrod  on  03/14  at  06:14 PM

I just can’t resist—ONE SPOILER…


SPOILER WARNING
{FNORD!}
[url=“http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/preskill/nyt_bet_story.html”]NAKED!...
um…singularity[/url]
{/FNORD!}

Ahem. That is all.

Comment #29: Mark Foxwell  on  03/14  at  06:34 PM

Now dammit, how do I make a proper highlighted link nowadays then? The <“a” “href=...>linktext<”/a”> thing worked last week, and that’s what I did, what’s this “bracket-url” thing that got substituted?

Test: This should link to the Pandagon homepage:

And it did. Dunno what went wrong with the link to Caltech…

Comment #30: Mark Foxwell  on  03/14  at  06:39 PM

Just a quick correction about Cally’s child. She *knew* that her boy was fully human, because Doc Cottle had told her that Hotdog was Nick’s dad back when she first became pregnant. She chose to marry the Chief and to let him think that the child was his. Notice that this neatly puts Nick out of the running for Savior of Everyone, as Hera is now the only hybrid in existence (that we know of).

So Cally was trying to kill herself and her child, but not because her child was a hybrid. She was distraught and not thinking clearly.

Comment #31: means are the ends  on  03/14  at  06:46 PM

Ah. Any kind of line break within a “href” link is apparently a big no-no. Damn.

Comment #32: Mark Foxwell  on  03/14  at  07:30 PM

There is another rape, even happened this season.

Boomer and Helo.  With Athena watching.

Comment #33: oldfeminist  on  03/14  at  07:36 PM

means, yes, except that was an exceptionally unfortunate example of retconning. She was trying to kill Nicky because of his Cylon blood, but they changed it so that he doesn’t have any. So now she was just bringing the kid along for the ride. Ron Moore admits it here, except he calls it “retrofitting”.

Comment #34: SuzanneM  on  03/14  at  07:46 PM

I’ve never thought of the cylon rebirthing gasps as orgasmic.

Neither have I.  I always imagined it as a rush of life being forced into the body, so it convulses and gasps because that’s the first time the body has moved or breathed.  Kind of like a crying, gasping, flailing newborn baby.

And Ellen Tigh’s rebirth scene DEFINITELY did not play as orgasmic to me.  I read it as straight up panic.  She was just killed, unexpectedly, by someone she loved very intensely.  So she was terrified and in pain.  Then she realized what was going on and put herself back together.

Comment #35: Denise  on  03/14  at  07:51 PM

I imagine the whole “resurrection” process is traumatic somehow; every one we’ve seen involves apparent pain and panic.

Then again, the humanoid Cylons are still young, and the only reason any of them ever need to be resurrected is that they got killed in some untimely fashion; this is certainly true of the ones we’ve seen (nuked, shot, poisoned by hubby of 2000 years…) Still, it seems that process itself is also disturbing somehow, aside from the circumstances that bring one there.

Ellen, of course, not only had physical rebirth to contend with but also a sudden rush of formerly repressed memory as she recalled who she really was.

Comment #36: Mark Foxwell  on  03/14  at  08:00 PM

IIRC, when Neo is jettisoned from the human battery farm in The Matrix, he also wakes up naked and gasping in a pile of goo.

Comment #37: FlipYrWhig  on  03/14  at  08:12 PM

/me puts on Comic Book Guy tone…

1)  First, this show actully IS pretty sexist, thought it probably has bigger problems with racism.  It’s of the thatcherite version so some more parsing wrt to patriarchy itself is needed.  Just because Sidney Poiter could have portrayed this Starbuck doesn’t mean it avoided…issues…

2)  BSG2 most definitly is a space opera, cynickal.  There isn’t any actual science in the show, just a bunch of 20th century people using 20th century ships using 20th century weaponry PLUS jump technology!  Bits of paper cut off on the edges and similar cusses and a (for the most part) monotheistic polytheism is a few things that are supposed to seperate us from them.  Makes one understand how those japanese anime characters represent japanese people despite the big eyes, and othering is accomplished by tactics that are too subtle for non japanese to appreciate.

3)  Everyone should read this rant…http://www.mikebrotherton.com/?p=802

Yeah, that’s the idiot me pushing a different author’s books on an author’s blog…

But seriously, I followed this advice from some gal over at Pharyngula and metaphorically ran out and got Rosemary Kirstein’s Steerswoman books.  I’m passing along the advice…If you want to read some of the most awesome science fiction of the last 20 years or so, read.those.books.  Yeah, it’s clunky at the very beginning but Kirstein rewards patience in double-handfulls.  The only warning is that this is science fiction at around the level of Greg Egan, but very subtly so.  It still requires serious brainpower to read (especially visual imagination—think Godel Escher Bach playfullness), though.  I think this is why they are so little known, it looks and starts off like a pretty easy-read standard fantasy.

Thanks Occasional Expositor...

Comment #38: shah8  on  03/14  at  08:18 PM

While we’re nitpicking, Callie doesn’t actually commit suicide either. She’s standing there indecisive when she’s talked down off the edge, sucker-punched, and then murdered.

I’ve missed a bunch of stuff (with an infant in the house, BSG is more energy to watch than is usually available), so I saw the suicide attempt as following pretty logically from the conditions she was living under with the Cylon connection as just icing on the cake. (Of course, from a second-wave feminist point of vew it’s really both/and—having a cylon for a husband and being effectively confined to quarters raising a cylon-or-maybe-not baby is a perfectly fine metaphor for a traditional marriage where the wife is raising kids who will re-enact one side or the other of the abusive relationship that is the patriarchy…)

Comment #39: paul  on  03/14  at  08:34 PM

i have to say this…

i am 3 episodes behind, so damn you all to spoiler hell. but that is not what i want to say.

i want to say: i used to HATEHATEHATE Ellen with a fireyburninghate. then - she woke up on the ressuraction ship. and she stopped being a caricature of an “adulterous woman” and became this HUGE mother-creator-disipliner (is that a word? a person who doles out the disipline), and while i have some mild dissonace with the “mother of God” thingy - i think it works VERY well, and everything makes a HELL of a lot more sense now. the sex she was having with the Al-Cylon (i call him Al, cuz he’s Al from Quantum Leap) MAKES SENSE. it never made sense before that Al would choose HER, ya know? now it does. revenge on his mother, and the most massive of Oedipal complexes…...

now i like her.

Comment #40: denelian  on  03/14  at  08:58 PM

If Cally is a stand-in for all women, then Baltar is a stand-in for all men.

Comment #41: keshmeshi  on  03/14  at  09:16 PM

Shah, I think the creators have always been up front about the fact that BSG is a political drama that happens to be set in space.  As it turns out, anything that’s set in space is automatically labeled scifi.  Not really fair, but that’s the way it is (for now).

Could you elaborate on point #1?  I am curious.

Comment #42: LauraB  on  03/14  at  09:30 PM

Foxwell, sorta kinda followed your link.  Saw references to the SPOILER you mentioned.  Not sure if there’s a specific link to the BSG ep.

For those who see sexism endemic in BSG, I would imagine that they see sexism endemic in just about all mass market culture.  At some point it becomes a Dog Bites Man story.  If you see all of culture representing the sexism inherit in the dominant culture, then just about any product of that culture will represent that sexism.  Isn’t “30 Rock”, with it’s Alpha Male Jack Donaghy in stark contrast with the hopelessly befuddled Liz Lemon, hopelessly sexist?  Isn’t “Chuck”, with its female superspy wistfully pining for domestic normality, hopelessly sexist?  Isn’t “Lost”, with its female characters defined so much by their relationaship with me, hopelessly sexist?

I don’t see any of those shows as sexist, but then again, I don’t get paid by the column inch to see it that way.  I see Jack Donaghy as a guy who’s sold his soul and more or less knows it.  I see Agent Walker as someone who wants to stop living a lie and sees Chuck as a window at a better life.  I see Kate, Juliet and Sun as women who understand that loving someone amplifies who you are, and therefore whom they love helps them define who THEY are.  Which is also true for Jack, Sawyer and Jin.

But who’s counting when there’s a deadline looming.

Comment #43: Hawes  on  03/14  at  09:44 PM

You know, another sci-fi show I’ve been very pleased with on this front is the new Doctor Who.  The women are smart, funny, bold and courageous, and dressed in normal run-of-the-mill street clothes (though occasionally historical garb, as they can travel through time, but still not revealing clothes).  I don’t think we even ever see cleavage on the main female characters.  The most recent female lead, Donna, was even rather chunky by television standards.  Female characters actually get to play the role of hero very often.  It’s a whole different kind of show than BSG, more an episodic adventure-show than a long-term story.  Now that I think of it, the “adventure” nature of the show may make its non-sexism even more surprising, since I usually do think of things like that as being more geared toward men.  Looking forward to Season 5!

Comment #44: CalliopeJane  on  03/14  at  10:30 PM

LauraB, I didn’t expand on that idea because it would require good writing and clear thinking, which is something I’m not great at, at least on short notice.  I’d be like the author of the piece commented by Amanda.

To say it really quickly, I agree that the female characters are pretty well developed and it easily passes the Bechdel test, but most of the big moments alloted to them are in some way supporting patriarchal concepts.  In fact, when I saw the tag for this post, I thought Amanda was talking about the latest episode.  The only woman who wasn’t in some kind of nurturing scene was Racetrack.  There was Adama emphasizing that Kara was his daughter (well, inlaw, I think).  Plenty of males being strong for their woman, and there was the Karl-Tyrol discussion about how all women (8s) are the same and are out to get them.  Paula having to work through Baltar for some of that luvin’ Revolutionary Spirit.

Of course, the whole series had this whole, and neurotic, fear and wonder of sex going on as well. 

Lastly, as you slide down that class ladder, the more stereotypically female the characters get.

Comment #45: shah8  on  03/14  at  10:44 PM

BSG2 most definitly is a space opera, cynickal.

In my opinion, one of the things that separates science fiction from space opera is how much the story depends on the genre. 

Take for instance, the Star Wars trilogy.  You could tell essentially the same story if you turned it into, say, a Western.  Turn the fighter jets into horses, light sabers into revolvers, and robots into comical minority servants, and you’re right at home.  It’s an adventure story that they decided would be cool to set in space with aliens.  I think the story of BSG depends a lot more on its genre, it can’t be as easily translated into a Western or whatever. 

I don’t believe that science fiction needs fancy science.  This is why a lot of people prefer the hoity-toity label “speculative fiction”.  I think The Handmaid’s Tale is science fiction, and it has no science in it at all.

Comment #46: Denise  on  03/14  at  10:49 PM

So you think we couldn’t just turn Laura Roslin to Brigham Young, then?

Comment #47: shah8  on  03/14  at  11:29 PM

Not a binary quality here. The stuff about resurrection and the quality of humanity is harder to translate to other genres. It could be done, but it simply brings the themes of “otherness” out much more easily than in other genres.

Comment #48: gwangung  on  03/14  at  11:45 PM

So you think we couldn’t just turn Laura Roslin to Brigham Young, then?
shah8 on 03/14 at 06:29 PM

Absolutely not!

You know, another sci-fi show I’ve been very pleased with on this front is the new Doctor Who.  ... Looking forward to Season 5!
CalliopeJane on 03/14 at 05:30 PM

Oh, me too! Do you know when it will start airing (presumably with the 2008 Christmas ep) and on SciFi or BBC-America? I’d hate to miss it.
Once BSG-2 is over, presumably next week, I probably won’t see anything on SciFi (unless they run good STNG or Enterprise eps, the only other stuff I am recording) and so I will miss the promos. As for BBC-Amer, I stopped looking at it when they dropped Coupling reruns from the lineup. Again, no promos for me.
IIRC last year they started running season 4 around the end of March, on SciFi. Same thing this year?

Maybe we can get Amanda to look at some of the past 4 years and post on whatever grabs her?

Comment #49: Mark Foxwell  on  03/14  at  11:50 PM

So you think we couldn’t just turn Laura Roslin to Brigham Young, then?

Well, the character of Roslin deliberately recalls themes of religious leaders taking their people to the promised land, a la Smith/Young or especially Moses.  But they get to the promised land… and it actually sucks.  It’s not a place to live, it’s a place where they learn that the path they’ve been taking is hideously wrong and can only end in destruction.  And the relationship between humans and Cylons doesn’t fit very well into a non sci-fi theme either.  The closest thing I can think of is racism and slavery, which I think the show deliberately evokes as well.  However, Cylons are created by humans, and Cylons have the whole issue with reproduction, which doesn’t fit in very well if we just turn Cylons into a minority or enslaved group of humans.

Comment #50: Denise  on  03/15  at  12:04 AM

I think there is a difference, and I think that it is *worth it* to think of it as a difference, between science fiction as an aesthetic and science fiction as itself.

The Handmaid’s Tale, Fahrenheit 451, Slaughterhouse 5, The Time Traveler’s Wife (and Journeyman that was based on it), Parables of the Sower are all science fiction/speculative fiction in the truest sense of the word despite a lack of real science because you have to suspend belief, and in turn, you are reward with an examination of the human condition that is offered by that suspension of belief.

Firefly is an actual science fiction show in space.  There is an effort towards David Wingrove’s Chung Kuo series, as well as something of a real invitation to explore alternative pathways of thought, if not much of it.  Think of River’s interacting with Shephard’s religion with logic and heart.  The thing is, everything flows, albeit minimally.  Dark Angel is another example of a sciency speculative fiction, while Journeyman is a good example of a more psychological speculative fiction.

Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, and to a degree varying on quality, the Star Trek franchises treat science as a setting, and do not generally treat science or the fantastic as anything other than a baroque detail which isn’t dynamic.  Basically, they are speculative fiction without a real *point* to the speculation. 

This is also often true of noir and noir-like stories.

Comment #51: shah8  on  03/15  at  12:11 AM

The ethical challenges posed by humanlike but superhuman Cylons are a point of the space setting for BSG. There’s rarely a reason why the action must unfold on a spacecraft traveling through the jump-facilitated spans of outer space. The deep pretext of the story is that humans created embodied minds that might deserve person status on par with other humans.

Comment #52: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/15  at  01:52 AM

I dunno.  For me the central detail of BSG is the resurrection stuff in the “suspension of disbelief” file.  With that detail, I don’t think you can flip settings in BSG very easily.  It has a lot of implications for the plot and themes.

Comment #53: Mandos  on  03/15  at  01:55 AM

I do feel like there has been a big increase in using rape as a plot device, in several fiction settings (books, movies, TV). I also feel that in settings that are already known for the fantastic, that I find it much more rewarding to read/watch/whatever rape either being fought back against or maybe it just doesn’t happen to every.single.female in a given plot. This strikes me as counterproductive to working toward a future with less rape, in depicting it as inevitable if you’re female. And herein I’ll comment on Watchmen in that yeah, it would’ve been fun to see her deck him, but I’ll accept that the movie wasn’t about that - it wasn’t about the fantastical, it was about the realistic. You put a woman who is valued for a sexiness over her ability to punch in high heels and together with a guy who is valued for his enjoyment of beating down people, and who would be surprised in who overpowers who? Doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy much more depictions that are more satisfying or idealistic, however you want to define it.

I’m not saying rapes used in movies/tv/books aren’t realistic depictions (although frequently they aren’t, the strange assailant strikes me as a frequent device, instead of something the victim would have difficulty identifying as rape, which is in reality a lot more common), but I don’t enjoy reading about/watching rape. I suppose it is good that it doesn’t make me happy, but I stopped reading the Sword of Fire and Ice series because especially beyond the first book, every other chapter is rape, or a threat of, or otherwise a reminder that women are second-class citizens that can expect to be treated horribly sexually. I don’t particularly care if it is ‘realistic,’ it isn’t a topic I love reading about or find cool. The person who recommended it to me described a chapter I missed as “so cool” because of the character “describing all the horrible things he did to her before he murdered her.” If that is the result of the increase of rape as a plot device, I’d say it failed spectacularly in raising awareness of rape as a terrible crime.
Which is, once again, I’m not saying that rape should NEVER be depicted, but rather I don’t think it actually raises the awareness of it as a terrible crime, nor is it something that I really find pleasant to watch/read about a lot. So why should I? Why shouldn’t I spend my money on ones that depict things I actually like reading/watching? And honestly, I would question to an extent an author/writer/director whatever who CONSTANTLY has to depict it. It strikes me as a “what, are they getting off on this?” instead of “oh good thing they’re depicting rape frequently and realistically like it is in society!”

Comment #54: Tenya  on  03/15  at  02:32 AM

Okay, my perception of the “specialness” of Cylons is definitly filtered through what I view as the show’s racism especially through the ideas of George Lipsitz (The Possessive Investment of Whiteness).  It’s not bad, but I’ve always viewed the cylons as fundamentally about white people’s insecurity about the value of their whiteness and the danger of being “overrrun” as a result.  I think this effect is an unintentional aspect of Moore’s writing team.  Of course, more intentional is how they use various dark-skinned actors, but that is standard tv fare.

If you haven’t noticed, this show was *never* about humans stepping “up” to Cylon ethos outside of the traditional fear of strange women luring away human males from the straight and narrow.  Cylons can’t use their Cylon-ness in the fleet unless it’s under direct human control.  It’s a huge deal when Cylons attempt to *help* humans, at New Caprica and with the failing battlestar, and both attempts fail.  The Cylons offer control over the Basestar to humans while accepting a subordinate position on a council (one prone to getting gunned down) when Adama never would have done the same with *his* command.  When you drop down to Cylons are moral children because of ressurrection, what am I to think other than Whoa, ressurection technology!  I want that!  How come *I* can’t have that?  I’d think there would be a strong need for sour grapes.  It’s the same with men who’s got terrible cases of baby envy needing to cast doubt on whether women have equal souls so they don’t feel left out in the great lottery.

So Cylons are taken down that pedestal.  Projection being used for evil purposes, resurrection tech being destroyed (with shockingly little extended discussion on just how moral that is), Cylons adapting human norms of clothing! and customs but not the other way around…so forth and on.  Not to mention how the metal Cylons are people too as well as the Raiders.  They are never involved in any discussion about any futures.  Thus the whole…creole...aspect of only dealing with the people *most* like them, especially the girls.  No toasters and no Leobens.

I could keep going on…at one point, I had this huge rant in my head going on about 8s in the show because I just found the general treatment of Park to be ultimately creepy. 

Given how much of the stuff that I take from the show in its more science fictiony aspect seems to be unintentional, I’m not always sure how to absorb it.  I still watch the show because, well, I really like sci-fi, but I’ve long since accepted that there is never going to be a non-neutered science fiction show.  Too subversive.  The original Twilight Zone episodes can’t be made today given political sensibilities.

Comment #55: shah8  on  03/15  at  02:53 AM

Tenya, I feel the opposite way with George RR Martin.  I’ve become pretty exasperated with the whole SuperChick! phenomenon where it is obvious that the woman is empowered for the benefit of giving a female audience a power fantasy.  I really like the Song of Fire and Ice stuff because the women in there are dealing in a medieval society with all that entails for women, and we see all of the main female characters except for the eldest Stark daughter seek various ways to grab more power to control their destinies in various intelligent/likable and stupid/unlikeable ways.  Carrie Vaughn also does this really well in her paranormal romance series, even though the protagonist *is* actually superpowered, she mostly is “socialized” not to use it, and uses her head and tongue instead.  Octavia Butler is a third author who does this with authority.  It works, and it makes for very rich characterization in the right hands.

On the other hand, there is a perpetual controversy with Alan Moore about how *he* uses sexual violence.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Buffy as much as the next geek, but there is so much paranormal drek out there that, to me, is fundamentally escapism for women who want to feel more empowered for a little while.  Not that this is wrong, though.  I need my escapism too!

Comment #56: shah8  on  03/15  at  03:08 AM

Isn’t “Lost”, with its female characters defined so much by their relationaship with me, hopelessly sexist?

Ben?

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/15  at  03:51 AM

Shah, there are definitely storylines for female characters that don’t revolve around nurturing—think Kara going to get the arrow of Apollo, breaking out of the Leoben creepy-house-prison-thing, the whole Pegasus arc, etc.  Possibly more but I’m not caffeinated yet.

Also, within the context of the show, cylons want to be human.  So, I think a lot of what they do is understandable if you keep that in mind—giving up resurrection tech, accepting a single seat on the council, etc.  This is why I think a racial analogy doesn’t quite fit.  I think of it more like really looking up to your parents and wanting to be like them.  And of course not realizing that your parents are just as fucked up as everyone else. 

That said, I really like that the show gets people to think about the “who is one of us” question.  No small feat for primetime television.

Comment #58: LauraB  on  03/15  at  09:31 AM

Sha8, I think you’re right about the racial metaphor. The entire plot of Battlestar Gallactica is set in motion by a slave revolt.

Humans enslaved Cylons and Cylons took revenge by destroying human civilization. Humans assumed that Cylons were mere possessions, objects that could be bought and sold.

The human race was terribly wrong. Throughout the series, humans use object metaphors to demean Cylons, calling them “toasters” and dismissing them as “just machines.” With each successive season we learn more about the minds and hearts of Cylons. They’re flawed, just like people, but they aren’t just objects.

I’m assuming that the Cylon-human hybrid trope will ultimately be a metaphor for the common humanity of different nations/races.

Comment #59: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/15  at  11:33 AM

Man, these show trials are becoming less and less fun. There have been 80 episodes, a mini-series, and a DVD movie (Razor): I’m sure that nearly 70 hours of programming (or 30-40 movies’ worth) can be seen as support for Communism, furryism, or MRAism if enough trees are erected to obscure the forest.

I myself have amazingly managed to miss this half-season and had my memory of all post-New Caprica Season 3 wiped away. The Sparks song “Dick Around” came to mind more than once during that process.

Comment #60: norbizness  on  03/15  at  01:34 PM

This has much less to do with *actual* slave rebellions than the *paranoia* about slave rebellions.  Think Reagan’s first FEMA chief styling himself The General and preparing the agency for The Race War, or all those mutterings about Mexicans taking over and forming Atzlan.  However much the producers wished to do a clean Spartacus style slave narrative, they unintentionally gear towards the complicated American style race narrative.  To a certain extent, this isn’t really a surprise.  Robot rebellions usually do have this to *some* extent.  It’s just BSG has a lot more of it compared to The Terminator.

Lindsay, I’m trying to remember past episodes of the show, but I do not think the Cylons restarted the war out of revenge.  They restarted it because they believed that war was inevitable and they had vast numerical inferiority.  They didn’t believe that coexistance was possible in the long run (and the humans certainly kept probing Cylon space during the peace), and they didn’t think humans were worth “saving”

Laurab, Again, one should be pretty careful about infantiling people, since it’s a major interface between patriarchy and racism.  In any event, I don’t think the Cylons ever wanted to be humans.  They were pretty much forced to be more like humans every step of the way, from the Final Five starting up humlons through reproducing a society as they rebuild Caprica through New Caprica all the way through to the destruction of the Resurrection Hub.  Even at this stage, the majority of Cylons actively reject humanity.

Comment #61: shah8  on  03/15  at  02:27 PM

Regarding “what is science fiction?,” I like Robert Heinlein’s definition/requirements for a “science fiction” story:
“1. The conditions must be, in some respect, different from here-and-now, although the difference may lie only in an invention made in the course of the story. 2. The new conditions must be an essential part of the story. 3. The problem itself—the “plot”—must be a human problem. 4. The human problem must be one which is created by, or indispensably affected by, the new conditions. 5. And lastly, no established fact shall be violated, and, furthermore, when the story requires that a theory contrary to present accepted theory be used, the new theory should be rendered reasonably plausible and it must include and explain established facts as satisfactorily as the one the author saw fit to junk. It may be far-fetched, it may seem fantastic, but it must not be at variance with observed facts, i.e., if you are going to assume that the human race descended from Martians, then you’ve got to explain our apparent close relationship to terrestrial anthropoid apes as well.”

Comment #62: CalliopeJane  on  03/15  at  03:20 PM

and Mark, now that I’m poking around, I find it’s actually going to be a long time until Season 5 of Doctor Who!  Boo! But there will be some specials this year, considered just continuation of S4. Here’s the scoop I got from the forums on tv.com:

“2009 is a light year for Doctor Who. It was originally announced there would be 3 specials in 2009, but now it appears there may be 4, with the Christmas 2009 possibly being bumped up to two parts, especially as production codes have now been released with 4.17/4.18 being paired together. Producers for the 2009 specials are Nikki Smith and Tracie Simpson.

With the light year taking place, David Tennant is able to have a sabbatical to do some Shakespeare. Then at the end of 2009 we should get the start of season 5 production proper with a Christmas Special and a full season following in Spring 2010.”

Comment #63: CalliopeJane  on  03/15  at  03:28 PM

Lindsay, I’m trying to remember past episodes of the show, but I do not think the Cylons restarted the war out of revenge.  They restarted it because they believed that war was inevitable and they had vast numerical inferiority.  They didn’t believe that coexistance was possible in the long run (and the humans certainly kept probing Cylon space during the peace), and they didn’t think humans were worth “saving” <blockquote>

For “they,” shah8, read “Number 1/John/Cavil” according to the recent episodes. At any rate, Ellen largely blames him. We don’t know what conclusions the other models would have drawn on their own had Cavil not been busy manipulating them. Obviously many others are more or less amenable to going along with him, but…

<blockquote>... In any event, I don’t think the Cylons ever wanted to be humans.  They were pretty much forced to be more like humans every step of the way, from the Final Five starting up humlons through reproducing a society as they rebuild Caprica through New Caprica all the way through to the destruction of the Resurrection Hub.  Even at this stage, the majority of Cylons actively reject humanity.
shah8 on 03/15 at 09:27 AM

The numbers do support this; the rebel Cylons allied with the Colonial Fleet have one, count ‘em, 1, baseship, on which there are apparently a number of Sixes, quite a few Eights (is Boomer the only 8 with Cavil? I forget) and one sample each of whatever number D’Anna and Leoben are. (Perhaps there are more Leobens? I forget). Plus the Final Five, all five of them. Whereas Cavil has enough baseships so that the scout Raptor in the last ep counted three of them transiting the entryway to the Colony in the brief time they stayed around before Jumping the heck away, apparently all the male model Cylons left standing except maybe Leobens, Boomer and perhaps other 8s.

OTOH, who exactly “forced” the rebels to reevaluate their relationship with Colonial humans? Certainly it’s fair to say Ellen and the other four of the Five didn’t exactly give them free choice in the matter; then again all the humanoid “models” are their creation, and were created after the old-model Centurions agreed to this strategy of parallel development and humanoidization. Which they apparently did in part because they themselves were already experimenting with making humanoids of their own, for whatever reason.

Anyway the seeds of the rebellion against Cavil were planted during the Colonial Exodus, when the Final Five were dormant, ignorant of their identities and certainly not pulling strings. Nor did any Colonials have anything to say in the matter beyond setting examples and making pleas. It was “Caprica”-Six and Boomer who began reevaluating the wisdom of exterminating the Colonials, and apparently this led to the project of subjugating instead of exterminating the Colonials caught on New Caprica. In the course of that attempt at rapprochment on Cylon terms, they all seem to have changed their minds to some extent—Boomer giving up on Colonial humans and rejoining Cavil, Caprica becoming more radical and that other Six (I forget who she was) going so far as to decide resurrection was a bad idea. Meanwhile Leoben joined the rebel team. D’Anna was critical in the process, and on one hand she seems to have been all about submission to the will of the Final Five, and on the other she (and Tory) is now the most suspicious and even hostile among the rebels to dealing with Colonials, even as she has burned all her bridges to Cavil’s side.

I don’t think it makes sense to represent the movement toward humanization on the Cylon side as being a manipulation imposed on them by outsiders.

On the other hand, someone pointed out in the past few weeks how we had better hear more from the mechanoid Centurions (and presumably the intelligent Raiders and Heavy Raiders as well). They were the original Cylons in this cycle; they got lobotomized during the regime of the Final Five before Cavil took over, and it was Cavil, not the rebels against him, who was in favor of keeping them that way during the rebellion. The Sixes restored them to full autonomy—and unfortunately the show’s directors have not really shown us any consequences or repercussions of that beyond those episodes.

Comment #64: Mark Foxwell  on  03/15  at  03:38 PM

In any event, I don’t think the Cylons ever wanted to be humans.

Then why were they developing humanlike forms during the first cylon war?  The one that the FF stopped by providing the tech for the skinjobs to the centurions?

This is why I think the racial analogy is incredibly inexact, at best.  The cylons literally are the creation of humans (remember, the FF are the remnants of human-created cylons from Kobol)—calling them humanity’s children is exactly correct.  If they were another race/species that the Colonials encountered in deep space (and I think this was the case in the original series, but I might be misremembering) then I think your point would make more sense.

Obviously the racial metaphor works in broad strokes, and I don’t want to imply that I don’t think that’s what the show’s creators are getting at, broadly speaking.

Ok, sprained wrist is telling me to stop typing now.  More later when the advil kicks in.

Comment #65: LauraB  on  03/15  at  04:14 PM

I don’t think the show’s creators are being <i>purposeful</b> of the trends I’ve outlined.  It’s a side product of what they were going after.

Comment #66: shah8  on  03/15  at  04:35 PM

Also, we don’t actually *know* Cylons are humanity’s children.  Evolution is absent in this universe except in the incorrect useage of machines becoming aware and self-selecting forms.  In any event, the previous cycle had apparently the inverse of the current relationship, so saying that Cylons are humanity’s children is *literally* incorrect.  Given the show’s mythology, it’s more prudent to think of the Pygmalion mythos than any kind of God-Adam-Eve sequence…

Comment #67: shah8  on  03/15  at  04:39 PM

Grr. cynickal and teac already pointed it out upthread, but that was a hell of a cheap shot at SF fans. I nerd-rage a little at that. I mean, it’s not like the fandom doesn’t deserve at least some of it, but… grr. Ugh. Pick on the kid with glasses a little more, why don’tcha.

Comment #68: grendelkhan  on  03/15  at  04:46 PM

Huh.

I didn’t realize this post was written by a woman until the last paragraph.  Cool.

Anyway, thanks.  I think you’ve pretty much nailed it about BSG.  Ordinarily I tend to at least sympathize with criticisms of TV stereotypes, but I think Ms. Lapidos is sort of off the mark, here.  I personally never noticed that the cylon rebirth scenes were almost exclusively female, and I never thought of them as “hypersexualized.”  I think of them as awfully yucky.

I do have to admit that, as a heterosexual male living in the 21st century, gorgeous women tend to be trying to get my attention from everywhere I look: TV commercials, bus shelters, Internet pop-ups, my own Yahoo Mail screen(?!!!)  So I’m not always the best judge of what shows have hypersexualized imagery and which don’t.  I have to think there are probably some that don’t…

Bill

Comment #69: evenswr  on  03/15  at  05:36 PM

Also, we don’t actually *know* Cylons are humanity’s children.

Yes, we do.  Listen to the podcast for the first episode of season 4.5.  In it Ronald D. Moore details the sequence of events: humans and gods live together on Kobol, humans do a Prometheus and steal fire—the knowledge of how to make life—from the gods, humans create cylons, gods get pissed, cylons leave for earth, humans leave for the 12 colonies.  The cylons we now know as the final five are living on earth when some sort of war happens (I assume they are attacked by their equivalent of centurions?), they download to their safe spot, wherever that is, they travel to the 12 colonies to warn them against creating life (and treating it badly), through some funky space-time effect they get there too late and the humans have already created centurions and they’re in the middle of the first cylon war (40 yrs before the mini starts).  FF trade resurrection tech for a peace agreement with the humans.  But at that point the centurions had already been trying to create skinjob type cylons (remember the young william adama webisodes?  I forget what they are called officially).

It’s entirely possible that in the last episode we’ll learn that the lords of kobol are actually cylons (or equivalent) from a previous cycle. But given what we know now, it is not incorrect to state that humans created the cylons and that they are humanity’s children.

Comment #70: LauraB  on  03/15  at  05:50 PM

The key slave revolt that I’m talking about is in the back story. We’re told explicitly that human beings created cylons.

These early cylons were the property of humans, like any machine. We don’t know exactly how they came to have minds, but if they had minds while humans owned them, they were slaves. At some point in the distant prehistory of BSG, the cylons rebelled against their human masters and human-cylon relations have been strained ever since.

Early in the story Caprica 6 tells Baltar that she wants revenge on humans for holding cylons in bondage—shortly before she triggers the thermonuclear holocaust.

Comment #71: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  03/15  at  05:52 PM

They were the original Cylons in this cycle; they got lobotomized during the regime of the Final Five before Cavil took over…

Was that specifically stated somewhere?  I had assumed that Cavil had enslaved the Centurions, which would make for extra irony since he’d rather be a more pure mechanical being, and since he hates the humans so much.  Ellen Tigh also treated that one Centurion with respect, something that Cavil never seems to have done.

Comment #72: keshmeshi  on  03/15  at  06:08 PM

Was that specifically stated somewhere?  I had assumed that Cavil had enslaved the Centurions, which would make for extra irony since he’d rather be a more pure mechanical being, and since he hates the humans so much.  Ellen Tigh also treated that one Centurion with respect, something that Cavil never seems to have done.

If I recall correctly, Cavil had decided to lobotomize the Raiders, because they refused to attack the humans when they noticed that one of the Final Five was with them. But the rebel group was against that, and decided to change Centurions to have higher brain functions.  Then the Centurions killed Cavil & Co. and that is how they came to be on separate ships.  I think.

Comment #73: Denise  on  03/15  at  06:32 PM

Actually Keshmeshi I think I misunderstood what you wrote and didn’t answer your post.  Ignore me tongue laugh

Comment #74: Denise  on  03/15  at  06:34 PM

I think you are right, keshmeshi, that the new-model Centurions were limited by Cavil and not the FF; I think I even meant to say so myself but wasn’t sure there was evidence Cavil did it and I lost track of the point. We certainly know Cavil was most shocked at anyone undoing the limitation!

Shah 8, I’d say that anyone who creates intelligent life is in a parental relationship to their creation; that’s certainly what Frankenstein’s Creature thought, and I always sympathized with the Creature in all versions of that story. Adama, IIRC, had the same thought way back in the miniseries—“we created them, then betrayed them—the fault lies with us as well as them…”

Doesn’t mean I don’t think Cavil isn’t an ass; after all, it turns out Colonial humanity is not the direct creator of the humanoid Cylons; that would be the FF; Cavil’s drama-queen antics are really against them, with the Colonials a mere cast of extras, even mere scenery and props, as far as he is concerned.

Comment #75: Mark Foxwell  on  03/15  at  06:44 PM

Mark, here is the whole quote:

“Why are we as a people worth saving? We still commit murder because of greed, spite and jealousy. And we still visit all our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept responsibility for anything that we’ve done. Like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life and that life turned against us. We comfort ourselves in the knowledge that it wasn’t our fault, not really. You cannot play God and then wash your hands of the things that you’ve created. Sooner or later the day comes when you can’t hide what you’ve done anymore.”

Comment #76: LauraB  on  03/15  at  07:02 PM

Hmmm, some of the material above are retcons, and I don’t how to approach the plot-detail-by-later-discussion angle.  Podcasts aren’t canon, even if the artist thinks so, that really sez bad things about the work. 

The past history of this stupid show changes as it went on, from the whole it has all happened before and it will all happen again, with roles reversed, to later history eplicating the whole ff history.  At this point, I have to go unreliable narratives on the whole kit and kiboodle and keep to a constant present wrt to the plot.  The issues with the past is pretty much the same with the future.  The Cylons never had a plan, did they?

The entire flimsiness of the show is probably why I think so much more about the motives of the showrunners than really living in the BSG universe.  Moore is positively obsurantist about pretty fundamental aspects of his world in favor of preserving a kind of false mysticism and clean narratives that support the mystical.

I need some *real* sci-fi…

/me picks up James Morrow’s The Last Apprentice….

Hey, it’s got “Cylons” in it too!

http://www.amazon.com/Philosophers-Apprentice-Novel-P-S/dp/0061351458/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237156983&sr=1-4

Comment #77: shah8  on  03/15  at  07:50 PM

OK shah8; count me among those who think 2 hours are an awful short number of minutes for all the ‘splainin’ RM’s got to do. Can we count all the open questions that need to be answered by big reveal? It’s starting to smell a lot like Dem to me…

Comment #78: Ken Cope  on  03/15  at  08:55 PM
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