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Smart people deserve to be entertained, too

With all the (deserved) hype over “Mad Men”, I guess it should be inevitable that bloggers are going to stake out a contrarian position.  Still, I was disappointed to see Michelle at Bitch Blogs move in that direction, wringing her hands over the fact that, yes, “Mad Men” is good and illuminating and cutting, but what do you do about the fact that you can’t control the diversity of reactions to the show?  To my mind, you do the same thing that Bitch magazine did when some feminists began to wring their hands and suggest that anything short of futilely trying to wipe the word “bitch” off the face of the planet was de facto sexism, because the stupid people won’t get that it’s ironic.  What about the stupid people, and their stupid reactions?  Finally, I think Bitch decided that feminists with a sense of humor deserve their own damn magazine, and you’re going to drive yourself crazy trying to control for what stupid people will think.  And that, I think, is a sensible position.  But Michelle falls into the trap again.  First she worries about the people who don’t see the scene where Joan’s fiance rapes her as a rape.  Then she worries that the women at Jezebel are being insufficiently disturbed at the scene where Don assaults a woman he’s having an affair with:

An even better example of cognitive dissonance in Mad Men’s audience happened in last season’s famous scene between Don Draper and Bobbie Barrett.  In a stunningly physical display of male domination, Don grabbed Bobbie’s hair, inserted his hand into her vagina, and ordered her to compel her husband Jimmy to apologize to his clients.  She complies.

When I watched the scene myself, though, I thought - how masterfully they’ve set this up!  This is the dark underbelly of Don’s charm, revealed!  And they’ve even set it up so that he’s using his sexual dominance of Bobbie to make her do something that will benefit him professionally!  Oh I can’t wait to see what people have to say about this!

And the reaction at Jezebel was typical of what I heard in most corners of the internet: shocking - but sexxxaaaaay!

Michelle does acknowledge that the commenters and bloggers were cognizant of the fact that this kind of dominance has been eroticized in our culture, and it’s more than a little scary, and it allows rape denialists such as the ones that freak out actress Christina Hendricks.  But the concern is still there: What about the stupid people?  What about the people who watch “Mad Men” or read Jezebel and won’t admit that rape is rape?  They don’t read the show right by any intelligent standard, and yet they’re out there, watching and reading, and we can’t stop them.  What do we do? 

I’m not trying to be mean, but this sort of discussion makes me as impatient as the conservative notion that all entertainment products should be appropriate for children. This sort of thing goes on at a lot of blogs, with Lisa at Sociological Images making a frequent amount of hay over her concerns at the very existence of satire.  And lest you think I’m exaggerating, she doesn’t really hide this fact:

I know, it’s satire, and, if you’re a regular reader, you know how I worry about satire.


Click the link to read her frequent posts.  I find it mildly interesting that satire will always face the stupid people problem, and conservatives will think that Stephen Colbert is one of them, and sitcom parodies will not really change the minds of the ignorant and hateful.  But I fail to see what the point of worrying is.  Just to worry?  No one is going to be satisfied with that, so of course you get into this zone where Lisa veers very close to suggesting that satire should be avoided because cleverness excludes a great deal of the audience.  And in Michelle’s case, she suggests that the cleverness of “Mad Men” is such that she thinks the stupid should be excluded. 

And it’s something I can’t quit thinking about when a non-feminist acquaintance of mine asks me if they ought to be watching Mad Men.

The concern is way overrated with “Mad Men”, because their numbers are still low, and I imagine the density of the narrative runs most stupid people off.  But this is always going to be a problem with any attempt to insert political and cultural musings into entertainment.  You either make your intentions really obvious to calm concerns like the ones about, and say, when Don Draper does something sexist, bring the narrative to a screeching halt and use graphics to draw a big red circle around the offending behavior with flashing red letters that say, “Violence against women is rooted in sexism, and both are wrong.”  And the second you do that, you give up on the smart audience, who goes off to find some entertainment that doesn’t treat them like they’re feeble-minded infants. 

And that’s what I’m not getting from Michelle’s post or Lisa’s frequent concerns about satire—-an acknowledgment that there is no such thing as the perfectly political statement made in art that is both entertaining and smart enough to bring in audience X, but pedantic enough so that audience Y gets it.  Hell, you could be incredibly pedantic and I promise you, the stupid people won’t get it.  You could have written “This man is raping Joan” all over the screen, and the audience that wants to call it a “kinda sorta rape” will continue to call it that.  Because they believe rape is okay for their own reasons, and no single entertainment product is going to be the silver bullet that gets around their own strong need to believe that it’s okay to rape.  People with conservative or anti-feminist attitudes who refuse to engage in critique of their attitudes cannot be controlled, and if you want to control their reaction to certain products, the only thing you can do is not make the products.  Full stop.  And then your ideas aren’t getting out there at all.  Silence strikes me as a million times worse than being misunderstood.  And being pedantic is a form of silencing yourself, because no one likes it.  They want stories, not lectures. 

If we can set aside our concerns about the willfully ignorant asshole population’s relentless inability to catch a hint, I would argue that “Mad Men” actually has done a remarkable job of getting its political points across in a way that could create profound change in some audience members.  Certainly, I’ve heard plenty of people, men especially, talk about how much they feel their eyes are opened by the unvarnished portrayal of 60s sexism.  And that really wakes people up to the way that sexism still works in our culture, because the show dispenses with the myth that it was one way before second wave feminism, and then everything completely changed.  You see that women had jobs, and that women had a lot of rights and autonomy in the early 60s, but that didn’t mean that sexism was over by a long shot.  You see that women in the early 60s had “choices”, but that wasn’t the end of the story, nor did it mean that men didn’t have power over them.  And you can see how, if those narratives were stupid in the 60s, they’re stupid now.

And let’s face it—-the only reason it feels subtle sometimes is because the dialogue is so rooted in character. Last night, the single male secretary in Sterling Cooper complained that he works in a “gynocracy”.  What he means, of course, is that having female peers in the secretarial pool emasculates him, and unless he gets special privileges for being male, he’s being oppressed.  It’s the same line sexists use now, pointing to places where they feel that men are getting unduly fair treatment, and suggesting that nothing less than being held above women means that men are being oppressed.  I’d argue that what they were doing there wasn’t very subtle, and nor was it particularly subtle when Betty joked that her daughter Sally was acting like a lesbian because she likes to bang a hammer around.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:18 AM • (58) Comments

You really can’t do anything about them. There were—and still are—people who think Jonathan Swift was serious about his “Modest Proposal.” Hell, John Rogers of Kung Fu Monkey and producer of “Leverage” (which is a fun but not terribly challenging show) says that about 30% of his viewers don’t get the con even after it’s been laid out for them. I don’t know if this is because of a lack of desire to understand satire or if it’s an honest inability, and frankly, I don’t care. There’s a certain percentage of the population that’s going to be drawn to simple dichotomies and the current power structure and nothing we can do will change that—the best we can hope for is to limit their political reach and power by isolating them.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  08/17  at  11:22 AM

If Michelle’s gonna worry about American idiots, she’d be better off worrying about the ones who are destroying any chance at real health insurance reform. I love Mad Men (no spoilers, please—watching it tonight), but some ignoramus who can’t read its irony is the least of my concerns. AMC and HBO and Showtime can afford to cater to a more affluent and educated niche, and the dull-witted can’t really complain because the majority of TV is dumbed down just for them.

Comment #2: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  11:54 AM

Hey Amanda - I am short on time - but I just wanted to say, I don’t really disagree with you.  My post was about the reflexive self-congratulation I sometimes see in Mad Men “fandom” as it might be loosely called - but it really is not, and should not be understood, as a critique of the show itself.  Nothing one can do about the stupid, and I’m not advocating that all art be directed at a grade school level or concocted as a didactic exercise.  What I am trying to point out is that there is a tension between what’s intended and what an audience sees, and I thought that it was an angle of the show that isn’t talked about very much.

I’m a little surprised to see you pulling out “lack of a sense of humour” and “why can’t art just be what I want it to be without critics ruining my buzz” cards, but I can see also where you’re pulling them from.  Again, this was not a critique of Mad Men as a construction of intention; but rather something I’d noticed in responses to the show.

But mostly I’m kind of crazy-flattered that one of my all-time favourite feminist bloggers even took enough time to read my post and respond to it.

Comment #3: Michelle Dean  on  08/17  at  11:55 AM

Also Gracchus I’m a Canadian living in the US - trust me, I’m worried about the ones destroying health insurance reform!

Okay, gonna shut up now and let y’all make fun of me. smile

Comment #4: Michelle Dean  on  08/17  at  11:56 AM

Gracchus: You want some sort of coordinated letter-writing campaign to Max Baucus? Or the lady carrying around the “pubic option” sign?

Comment #5: norbizness  on  08/17  at  12:02 PM

Hell, John Rogers of Kung Fu Monkey and producer of “Leverage” (which is a fun but not terribly challenging show) says that about 30% of his viewers don’t get the con even after it’s been laid out for them.

As I’m fond of saying, when I worked in TV news, we were told specifically to write for an 8th-grade reading comprehension level. That was 15 years ago, and I’ve heard that now some MSM outlets (including some newspapers and news weekly magazines) now push for grade 6. Heck, most entertainment “journalism” is video and photos of purty, purty people.

It would all be fine if the target audience of morons limited themselves to fretting over celebrity divorces and deaths. Unfortunately, they’re holding the nation hostage politically.

Also Gracchus I’m a Canadian living in the US - trust me, I’m worried about the ones destroying health insurance reform!

Glad to hear it (I didn’t assume otherwise), and the response and clarification is appreciated. I doubt anyone will make fun of you.

My post was about the reflexive self-congratulation I sometimes see in Mad Men “fandom” as it might be loosely called - but it really is not, and should not be understood, as a critique of the show itself.

There’s really nothing wrong with “getting” something, and then geeking out with others who get it as well. We do it on a number of issues, from arts to politics. Part of that process is laughing or shaking our heads at those (present company excluded) who grossly and loudly misinterpret the topic under discussion, be it Mad Men or health insurance.

Comment #6: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  12:13 PM

Gracchus: You want some sort of coordinated letter-writing campaign to Max Baucus? Or the lady carrying around the “pubic option” sign?

I want the Dems and Obama to act like a bloody majority party for once and to exercise some leadership on this issue. That process involves telling people like that idiot woman, who will never vote for any Dem, that they have no idea what they’re talking about.

I really don’t want to de-rail here, but after a while it gets tiresome catering to morons and ignorami, whether you’re working in TV or in government.

Comment #7: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  12:18 PM

And apologies for the pissy mood and bad grammar today—for months I was going along with the dispirting assumption that the public health insurance option would be deliberately hobbled and ghettoised, only to have Dems floating trial balloons this weekend about no public option at all.

Comment #8: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  12:24 PM

I wasn’t pulling the “no sense of humor” card.  Or at least not trying to.  I know you’ve got a sense of humor and you get a lot out of the show.  I just fail to see the value in doing the “I’m an elite, smart, funny person, but other people aren’t, and what are we going to do about that?” concern.  There’s nothing to be done about it. It’s a completely unfixable problem. 

And by worrying overmuch about it, we do, whether we like it or not, feed a narrative about how feminism precludes being sophisticated, sarcastic, etc.  The overly earnest feminist stereotype is far more of a problem than the problem of smart people engaging smartly with a show and not concerning themselves with the people who won’t engage smartly.  Yeah, people might be congratulating themselves about their investment in this show, and I say good for them.  They deserve it, because that show is dense and intelligent and asks a lot of the viewer.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  12:49 PM

People with conservative or anti-feminist attitudes who refuse to engage in critique of their attitudes cannot be controlled, and if you want to control their reaction to certain products, the only thing you can do is not make the products.  Full stop.  And then your ideas aren’t getting out there at all.  Silence strikes me as a million times worse than being misunderstood.  And being pedantic is a form of silencing yourself, because no one likes it.  They want stories, not lectures.

Thanks, Amanda, for the post in defence of satire and especially the above.  I’ve commented before about how the fact that a certain number of people won’t get the joke /are the joke is part of what makes satire work in the first place (see: Walter J. Ong).  I’m no fan of literalists, but I don’t let them stop me from enjoying It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Trailer Park Boys, regardless of the fact that some misreaders will either think those shows endorse certain behaviours or that they’re (in the case of TBP) exploiting certain demographics. 

If we adopt the classical/neoclassical moral didacticism approach to judging entertainment (no sympathetic evil characters onstage! poetic justice! utile dulce!) in order to avoid “mis”-teaching the stupid or susceptible among us, we’ll soon find ourselves drowning in the kind of melodramatic muck that nearly suffocated the entire latter half of the eighteenth century (OK I exaggerate, but to make a point).

Comment #10: Ranylt  on  08/17  at  12:56 PM

I feel a bit weird about this false dichotomy that’s being put forward here: between people who like Mad Men and people who are stupid. I’m an elite, smart, funny person who doesn’t get Mad Men like, at all. It’s like watching snuff movies as far as I’m concerned - I don’t need the sexism I confront every day amplified, stylized, and thrust back in my face.

Comment #11: MarinaS  on  08/17  at  01:47 PM

Well, Amanda, mostly I would say that I find your position - i.e. that there’s only one way to approach Mad Men that’s worth talking about, and that you have access to it - just as elitist.  I mean, there are plenty of people in the world talking about their sympathies

Perhaps this is better illustrated by the Bobbie incident than the Joan-rape, for example.  I would agree that people who didn’t get that Joan was being raped were more stupid than anything else.  But as for Bobbie, it was far less of a black-and-white situation.  I realize you read a perjorative into my choosing Jezebel in particular, but it wasn’t my intent to identify Jezebel as a forum full of stupid commenters or what have you.  And as I said in the post, I think there was a fruitful conversation to be had about the erotic power of dominance.  And all I mean to say is: even among those of us who allegedly “get it,” I’m not sure that we had that.

I think you wanted my post to be prescriptive, but it wasn’t.  It wasn’t an argument against art, or against stupidity, because you’re right, either of those arguments is fruitless.  It was an observation about the fact that art can work on a lot of different levels, for different people.  And being up front about that strikes me as far more democratic and intellectually honest than simply dismissing anyone’s reaction to the show other than my own as that of the “stupid.”

As for feminist stereotypes, isn’t worrying about my reinforcing the “overly earnest feminist stereotype” by engaging with this aspect of the show’s viewership run into exactly the same problem of caring about what the stupid and uncritical think of my work?

Comment #12: Michelle Dean  on  08/17  at  01:48 PM

Bah, crap, should read over my comments more carefully.  Last sentence of first para.: I mean, there are plenty of people in the world talking about their sympathies with Pete Campbell in eloquent and nuanced terms, but overall I don’t think either you or I would say Pete is particularly sympathetic in this “smart vs. stupid” paradigm of interpreting the show, no?

Comment #13: Michelle Dean  on  08/17  at  01:49 PM

I don’t know. I think there’s room for both appreciating smart analysis and enjoyment of a piece of political art and for noting the problematic nature of idiots.

I see it sort of like examining the teabaggers protesting health care reform. They barely have the education to dress themselves and their arguments are wholly without merit and it’d be foolish to give their arguments credence or change anything in order to suit or convince them, but still.

We have to live in the same country as these fucks and that can be rather frightening. I wouldn’t want my entertainment dumbed down for them, but it is frightening in an eye-opening way how many people identify with the rapists in Mad Men, the main character from American Psycho, or the slashers running around killing sexual women in every slasher movie ever made. And many of these same people do not hide their hero worship or why and that can serve as a stark reminder in much the same way as Mad Men is about sexism in general.

But yeah, it would be bizarre to try and cater to them. I think it was some sci-fi writer who said you’ll always be scared of some of your fans and the best thing to do is smile politely and wipe your hands afterwards.

Comment #14: Cerberus  on  08/17  at  02:04 PM

i don’t want to threadjack, but how great was the bit in the episode of them talking about income taxes?  that was a burn if i’ve ever seen one.

Comment #15: chareth cutestory  on  08/17  at  02:20 PM

Well, Amanda, mostly I would say that I find your position - i.e. that there’s only one way to approach Mad Men that’s worth talking about, and that you have access to it - just as elitist.

I don’t think there’s only one way. The show is incredibly dense, and you could spin about it for hours.  For instance, I published an article in the American Prospect looking at how the show understands “cool” in the way that it developed in the 60s, which is way outside of the “problematic/not-problematic” discourse that rules feminist analysis, for better or ill. 

I just really didn’t see the value in worrying overmuch about the Jezebel commenters.  They actually did what we are always begging people to do: Have a conversation.  They teased out the various problems/attractions of the scene, perhaps not in the most exacting way, and often in a way that is unsatisfying to those of us who want more nuanced analysis.  But they did grapple.  Women who have an honest lustful reaction to that sort of violence are going to react, I’ve found, with shutting down and defensiveness if they feel judged.  If you’re into BDSM, you’re probably going to find that scene arousing, and that’s more interesting to me than it is, to use a word I’m trying to excise from my vocabulary, “problematic”.  Doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s fucked up on some level, but everyone is fucked up on some level, which is the one thing that really redeemed the Bobbi storyline for me.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  02:22 PM

“I feel a bit weird about this false dichotomy that’s being put forward here: between people who like Mad Men and people who are stupid.”

What I got from the post is that the dichotomy is between people who get things like Mad Men and people who are stupid.  Stupid people are quite capable of misapprehending the show and liking it for the things it’s supposed to be highlighting as bad, for things that aren’t there, or for the pretty colors and shiny objects.  People who get it are quite capable of disliking it for any reason under the sun.

Comment #17: preying mantis  on  08/17  at  02:22 PM

As for feminist stereotypes, isn’t worrying about my reinforcing the “overly earnest feminist stereotype” by engaging with this aspect of the show’s viewership run into exactly the same problem of caring about what the stupid and uncritical think of my work?

Not really, because there’s a lot of smart audience members who are sympathetic to feminism that shut down if they feel judged.  See: Women who are aroused by BDSM imagery.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  02:23 PM

I feel a bit weird about this false dichotomy that’s being put forward here: between people who like Mad Men and people who are stupid. I’m an elite, smart, funny person who doesn’t get Mad Men like, at all. It’s like watching snuff movies as far as I’m concerned - I don’t need the sexism I confront every day amplified, stylized, and thrust back in my face.

There’s a difference between not enjoying a cultural product and not getting (nor even trying to get) the messages it’s trying to convey. Black humour and dark satire aren’t to everyone’s taste, and that goes for smart people who get it as well as stupid ones who don’t.

Comment #19: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  02:23 PM

What preying said, The Lady.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  02:24 PM

The classic example of people completely missing the point of a show is The Sopranos. Some absurdly high percentage of regular viewers thought Tony was a great guy, and would periodically complain if not enough people were getting whacked.

But, whaddayagonna do. I’m always glad to see anyone making smart tv that people watch.

Comment #21: davematson  on  08/17  at  02:25 PM

Even if, as she’s indicating in comments, Michelle Dean didn’t mean her post that way, I still think this is a great post by Amanda, because it holds true for many, many, many people in the liberal/feminist blogosphere.

It drives me fucking insane when not 100% of people understand something is satire, and then liberal bloggers go off about how it’s bad satire because it’s not “A Modest Proposal.” Seriously, they drag out Jonathan Swift every fucking time. “A Modest Proposal” is the only acceptable satire, it seems, almost certainly because it’s so far in the past and about a topic so irrelevant to us today that it’s safe and neutral. Not that it’s a bad example of satire, it’s just that stupid people wouldn’t have gotten it back when it was written, just like they don’t get satire today, and it’s dishonest/dumb to pretend that it contained the magical elusive Good Satire Element that let everyone understand it.

The other thing that drives me crazy in these discussions is that people in the leftist blogosphere will go to great lengths to pretend there are no stupid people (except for Republican politicians). I consider myself a pretty politically correct person, and I think political correctness is a good thing in general, but look. Some people are smarter than others. Some people are just plain stupid. Pretending that we’re all special snowflakes with exactly equal intelligence is not going to make it true. Some people are just never going to get satire, and often (maybe even most of the time), that’s not the satirist’s fault.

Comment #22: Lauren O  on  08/17  at  02:25 PM

This is a zillion times worse in a visual medium than any written medium.  It’s alot easier to impose a moral framework on a rich image than it is to do so on an elegant sentence.

Many people wouldn’t know what the heck Lolita is about even while they use derivatives like Lolly that they pick up from visual mediums.  However, that wouldn’t be the case with Charles Stross’s US cover of Saturn’s Children, or at least people would think some pretty interesting thoughts if they saw you reading that.

Anyways, back to tv…The Wire had this issue, far more pronounced than Mad Men, and there were some really wierd (and illuminating) takes on the plot that some of the audience percieved.  Ventakesh of Off the Books fame did a series in the NYTimes where he watched the show with “the thugs” so to speaks.  The HBO Wire thread was also full of crazy—completly different from the TWOP days of yore when there were smart people analyzing Buffy and Angel.  The odd thing to me is how much more relaxed people were about the more controversial parts in the Wire.  Very few people were outspoken about problematic issues of Hamsterdam, and only a little more concern was expressed about David Simon’s inability to handle women in his plots.  Does anyone think that the Wire was more or less problematic about how women’s issues were handled than Mad Men?

Comment #23: shah8  on  08/17  at  02:30 PM

Hmmm, Lauren O, I think the vastly larger (and more interesting)problem lies with what a prospective satirist thinks is satire.  Sometimes I think people underestimate just how hard (even as the Republicans create their livelyhoods) it is to make a good satire.  We even have problems explaining what satire even *is*, given the politely uncomfortable political and social contexts that would surround any explanations.  Thus, we have Chris Muir.

Another thing, I think consumers of satire desire cleverness in seeking amusement at other people’s expense.  Satire, the genuine article, would not be fun to read if many people readily appreciated the double entredres laid between the open-faced presentation.  Be the in-crowd!  The cool gang!  Have your own things and understandings!  Not the stupid people who don’t get anything.

Comment #24: shah8  on  08/17  at  02:48 PM

Lauren O - I find that I have to watch every new David Lynch movie once, scratch my head, then go read about it, then go watch it again, and then I really like it.

A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on it’s own. If you have to refer to a seperate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

I spent alot of time with writers, musicians, actors, and artists, and the last refuge of the creator of an ill-conceived, or poorly executed piece is that “you don’t get it”.

Funny, but I’ve heard that same defense from fans of WWE wrestling.

The magic of a piece is that it means differrent things to different people. Even if the artist meant a specific thing to be conveyed, the beauty is that piece taking on a life of it’s own, and being interpreted in so many different ways. I cringe with a songwriter scoffs at an implied meaning of his song. Great, asshole, why don’t you write another verse telling us to interpret your song that way, because you obviously didn’t make that clear.

Comment #25: I Heart Puppies  on  08/17  at  02:54 PM

““A Modest Proposal” is the only acceptable satire, it seems, almost certainly because it’s so far in the past and about a topic so irrelevant to us today that it’s safe and neutral.”

“A Modest Proposal” also has the advantage of being about eating babies.  Even the all but assured contemporaries who would have been era-appropriate-hi5ing Swift over how the Irish just got told had his suggestion been similarly draconian but not involved cannibalism could not bring themselves to yell “Hear, hear” about baby-eating in public.  There were certainly enough horrified and outraged members of the reading public who thought he was seriously arguing for baby burgers.  There are precious few things that satire can embrace without giving at least a tiny percentage of idiots or bad actors ideas.

Comment #26: preying mantis  on  08/17  at  03:01 PM

It drives me fucking insane when not 100% of people understand something is satire, and then liberal bloggers go off about how it’s bad satire because it’s not “A Modest Proposal.” Seriously, they drag out Jonathan Swift every fucking time. “A Modest Proposal” is the only acceptable satire, it seems, almost certainly because it’s so far in the past and about a topic so irrelevant to us today that it’s safe and neutral. Not that it’s a bad example of satire, it’s just that stupid people wouldn’t have gotten it back when it was written, just like they don’t get satire today, and it’s dishonest/dumb to pretend that it contained the magical elusive Good Satire Element that let everyone understand it.

I’ve seen that, and it drives me bonkers. I’ve also seen the exact opposite, and it drives me bonkers: whenever something is actually not fucking funny (because face it, not every attempt at humor actually works), somebody will also drag up Jonathan Swift and proclaim that there were people who didn’t get that, either, but that didn’t make it not funny. Most often used by Smart Liberal Dudes when someone makes a misogynistic comment or rape joke and I don’t immediately assume that It Was Obvious Parody/They Were Obviously Saying That Ironically/No Really It Was Totally Hilarious, because people for whom Smart Liberal Dudes are the target audience are never prejudiced! Prejudice is for dumb people! Almost every example of insulting humor based on perpetuating stereotypes, or stuff that hits way too close to home to be funny, gets defended as being Really Just As Obviously Over-the-Top As A Modest Proposal You Just Don’t Get Humor Do You. Because, y’know, the notion that sexism, racism, rape or homophobia still exist outside of the wingnuttiest of wingnutty Republicans is just as out-there a notion as government-sponsored baby-eating.

Not every attempt at humor is A Modest Proposal. In fact, pretty much every attempt at humor besides A Modest Proposal is not A Modest Proposal. Everyone can just shut the hell up about A Modest Proposal already, unless they’re teaching it.

Comment #27: thecynicalromantic  on  08/17  at  03:08 PM

Lauren, I guess for me, the point would be to keep a conversation open on the level of success a satire achieves.  As for Amanda I can’t tell in this piece, but I doubt she was defending all satire as being equally well-executed everywhere it is attempted.  That wouldn’t be a “sophisticated” viewpoint either.

Amanda, I guess we just disagree on whether someone’s pronouncement of “Hawt!” on this that or the other incident in Mad Men counts as a conversation - my point about “Jezebel” (by which I mean Tracie Egan, really, in this particular passage, because it’s difficult to say anything about Jezebel categorically) is that it seemed to me like no conversation was had.  Otherwise I’m not really sure we’re at cross-purposes here.

Comment #28: Michelle Dean  on  08/17  at  03:22 PM

A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on it’s own. If you have to refer to a seperate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

That’s a fairly hidebound and limited view. Yes, a work should be able to stand on its own to a limited degree, but a large part of art is that of discovery (of different layers, of hidden or obscure meanings, of jokes and “call-outs,” etc, etc) and the conversation that surrounds it.

Sometimes, by the way, that conversation may be an incorrect interpretation of the work (e.g. the Sopranos example mentioned above). Such conversations are still valuable, in that they validate the creator’s view about certain elements of society. But those interpretations are still wrong.

I spent alot of time with writers, musicians, actors, and artists, and the last refuge of the creator of an ill-conceived, or poorly executed piece is that “you don’t get it”.

But we’re discussing a well-conceived, well-executed piece. In that case, it’s not the last refuge if the person who “doesn’t get it” conclusively demonstrates that with his own words.

Funny, but I’ve heard that same defense from fans of WWE wrestling.

WWE wrestling is also well-conceived and well-executed, for what it is (compelling commercial entertainment). It’s soap opera mixed with athleticism, but no-one except for the truly stupid would argue that the interpersonal grudges or the ring fights they engender have much basis in reality.

So I’m not a fan, but I get what they’re trying to do.

The magic of a piece is that it means differrent things to different people. Even if the artist meant a specific thing to be conveyed, the beauty is that piece taking on a life of it’s own, and being interpreted in so many different ways.

Not all interpretations are of equal weight or credibility, and some are just plain wrong. There is certain satisfaction for an artist when a non-explicit theme or meaning is discovered by a consumer of his work.

Comment #29: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  03:29 PM

Most often used by Smart Liberal Dudes when someone makes a misogynistic comment or rape joke and I don’t immediately assume that It Was Obvious Parody/They Were Obviously Saying That Ironically/No Really It Was Totally Hilarious, because people for whom Smart Liberal Dudes are the target audience are never prejudiced!

That’s not satire, that’s covering your exposed pimply arse with an 18th-century pamphlet.

I love “A Modest Proposal,” but it’s not the be-all-and-end-all of Juvenalian satire, nor is it a particularly effective CYA tactic. I’d imagine Swift would have had some interesting things to say about both uses.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  03:36 PM

I’d be worried more about the stupid people if I thought stupid people were actually watching the show. From my experience there are still plenty of otherwise smart people who’ve tried to watch Mad Men but come away saying that looks nice “but nothing ever happens.”

Yeah, I know.

Comment #31: Hippie Killer  on  08/17  at  03:40 PM

As for the “gynocracy” crack, the English male secretary’s boss, says something to the effect, “Not that I’ve noticed.”

English male secretary interperts Joan’s gesture to acknowledge his position (office of his own, his own secretary) as being manipulated by her.

Was her gesture sincere? Who knows?  But he’s such an asshole, that if his superior shoves him back into place, it’s got to be a woman’s fault.

(Although, of course, he had just expended effort to push himself above the women.)

And the boss certainly hasn’t noticed a gynocracy—there are no women ruling his life. But the English at that time were alll about class and “position” and status, there’s no way he wouldn’t swat down a “cheeky” clerk.

Much less fluid movement between classes and position, back then: as an example, I was an exchange student in England in 1970 and was shocked when a Welsh professors said, “They (the English) will never completely accept me.” simply because he was Welsh.

At the time, that seemed as ridiculous as the idea that the residents of Vermont, would never accept completely the residents of New Hampshire.

If I’m not mistaken, the male secretary’s accent isn’t quite as posh as his boss, however, even if it were about position alone, the English boss would take a swipe at his assistant for “climbing.”

Comment #32: judybrowni  on  08/17  at  03:44 PM

Seriously, they drag out Jonathan Swift every fucking time.

It’s the satire that everyone has heard of, while his writings as Isaac Bickerstaff are certainly funnier, and the topic of astrology, unlike Irish famine and hunger, is still relevant:

The first of the three letters, Predictions for the Year 1708, published in January of 1708, predicts, among other things, the death of Partridge by a “raging fever.” The second letter, The Accomplishment of the First of Mr. Bickerstaff’s Predictions, published in March of 1708, Swift writes not as Bickerstaff but as a “man employed in the Revenue” where he “confirms” the imaginary Bickerstaff’s prediction. To accompany The Accomplishments Swift also publishes an Elegy for Partridge in which, typical of Swift’s satire, he blames not only Partridge, but those who purchase the Almanacs as well:

      Here, five Foot deep, lies on his Back,
      A Cobler, Starmonger, and Quack;
      Who to the Stars in pure Good–will,
      Does to his best look upward still.
      Weep all you Customers that use
      His Pills, his Almanacks, or Shoes;
      And you that did your Fortunes seek,
      Step to his Grave but once a Week:
      This Earth which bears his Body’s Print,
      You’ll find has so much Vertue in’t,
      That I durst pawn my Ears ’twill tell
      Whate’er concerns you full as well,
      In Physick, Stolen Goods, or Love,
      As he himself could, when above.

The hoax, gaining immense popularity, plagued Partridge till the real end of his life. Mourners, who believed him to be dead, often kept him awake at night crying outside his window. Accounts of an undertaker arriving at his house to arrange drapes for the mourning, an elegy being printed and even a gravestone being carved, all culminate to Partridge publishing a letter in hopes to have a last word on the matter and proclaim (and reclaim) himself as living. In 1709 Swift, writing as Bickerstaff for the last time, publishes A Vindication of Isaac Bickerstaff in which he abandons any real attempt to maintain the hoax. Bickerstaff counter-argues Partridge’s letter of proclamation disputing, “ They were sure no man alive ever to writ such damned stuff as this.”

Comment #33: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  03:51 PM

The concern is way overrated with “Mad Men”, because their numbers are still low, and I imagine the density of the narrative runs most stupid people off.  But this is always going to be a problem with any attempt to insert political and cultural musings into entertainment.

John Adams anyone? Not many people I know under the age of 30 believes me about how good it is.
Or Six Feet Under for that matter. etc. etc.

Comment #34: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/17  at  04:02 PM

From my experience there are still plenty of otherwise smart people who’ve tried to watch Mad Men but come away saying that looks nice “but nothing ever happens.”

I wouldn’t discount the “looks nice” factor—it adds to the viewership and builds buzz. I just noticed that Banana Republic is doing a cross-promotion with the show. The chain didn’t make that investment on the basis of a bunch of pointy-headed intellectuals watching the series.

And again, I don’t really worry that most people tuning in mainly for the fashion and design eye-candy will come away accepting the satire at face value.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  04:20 PM

Gracchus -

That’s a fairly hidebound and limited view. Yes, a work should be able to stand on its own to a limited degree, but a large part of art is that of discovery (of different layers, of hidden or obscure meanings, of jokes and “call-outs,” etc, etc) and the conversation that surrounds it.

I would imagine that when somebody creates a piece, whatever media they choose, they are creating for a contemporary audience, and expect feedback in the here and now. I suppose that when I sit down with a hammer and chisel, I could begin with the hope that my sculpture is understood in the context of history, 300 years from now. But I would go out on a limb, and say that those who create do so with the first goal of creating for the present.

Yes, works are contemplated historically, but if you want to see a beautiful, classic play that still evokes timeless human sentiment, you see Shakespeare, and if you’re looking for other work of that period that will give you more insight into the period, you might seek out someone else. Your kids will get into the Beatles. Freddie “Boom-Boom” Cannon will be a nice way for future generations to see just how great the Beatles were by showing the shallowness of their contemporaries.

Comment #36: I Heart Puppies  on  08/17  at  04:23 PM

I would imagine that when somebody creates a piece, whatever media they choose, they are creating for a contemporary audience, and expect feedback in the here and now.

Agreed—the bottom line is that creative folks want that conversation, both in the contemporary context and (they dare to hope) in the future.

Comment #37: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  04:27 PM

Gracchus - this hit me right after I posted.

A movie like David Lynch’s Inland Empire is a good example of a movie that is about it’s references. I enjoyed it the first time just for the way he sets up a scene, or builds tension, but after viewing The Saragossa Manuscript, the movie was great on a whole new level for me. And Saragossa Manuscript opened other movie doors for me because it was a great movie.

But a movie that is not well-acted, or well-written may serve as a learning tool, but it may not be as successful if you can’t even get through it.

Comment #38: I Heart Puppies  on  08/17  at  04:28 PM

JohnGor0, I’m not sure if your comment @#25 was supposed to refute mine? I wasn’t saying that ALL satire is necessarily successful; in fact, my last sentence acknowledged that sometimes it is the satirist’s fault when no one gets it. Sure, “you don’t get it” can be a defense mechanism from a shitty artist, but when someone sets out to write a satire, and 75% of people get that it’s a satire, the 25% who don’t objectively “don’t get it.”

I find your comment from a literature professor about how a work should stand on its own a little strange. First of all, am I supposed to believe it just because it came from a literature professor? I majored in English, and I’ve interacted with plenty of literature professors who would disagree. T. S. Eliot would certainly disagree, and I think it’s safe to say he’s got more literary authority than you or I. Are you recommending we reject allusions to the Bible and Greek mythology? That would damage the canon quite a bit. Second of all, what does a work standing on its own have to do with satire? Are works of satire supposed to be unacceptable because they refer to events or contemporary viewpoints?

That different people interpret works of art in different ways is awesome, but with many works of art there’s a basic gist that is objectively the right way to interpret it. You can read all kinds of things into Toni Morrison’s work, for example, but if you decide that she’s writing against black women, you’re just wrong.

Comment #39: Lauren O  on  08/17  at  05:09 PM

  A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on it’s own. If you have to refer to a seperate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

That’s a fairly hidebound and limited view. Yes, a work should be able to stand on its own to a limited degree, but a large part of art is that of discovery (of different layers, of hidden or obscure meanings, of jokes and “call-outs,” etc, etc) and the conversation that surrounds it.

Take a recent example: Galaxy Quest was funny in its own right, funnier if you’d ever seen classic Star Trek, and gut-splitting hilarious if you knew not only about the show but about the culture that rose around it (the disdain some of the actors expressed toward their fans at one time, the convention circuit, the fans who know more about the show than the actors, and the realization of some of the actors that they’d actually have more fun rolling with it than trying to fight it).  And that sort of thought went into everything including the design of the ship (which, if you look at it, you realize is the “opposite” of the Enterprise.

Comment #40: KeithM  on  08/17  at  05:11 PM

Phew, judi @ #32, way to erase the Welsh national experience there… A proud nation with millenia of culture, history, language and governance reduced to a neighbourly spat between two adjacent states.

Not to justify or excuse the hideous snobbery of the English towards their fellow Britons, but you are talking about relative hierarchy positions of different ethnic groups and not just a class struggle.

Your American parallel would work better if the speaker were black or hispanic, say. With the Sotomayor hearings only just behind us, I think there’s really not need to hark back to the English in the seventies to see how someone can struggle to gain legitimacy and acceptance despite palpable achievment in their native land.

Comment #41: MarinaS  on  08/17  at  05:18 PM

Oi vey, I seem to be doing Humourless Prig 101 today… Because I really didn’t find Galaxy Quest funny at all... Can I redeem myself by saying that I nearly wet myself when first watching The Princess Bride?

Comment #42: MarinaS  on  08/17  at  05:23 PM

LaurenO - Not totally refuting comment #22.

Point 1, refering to the blogosphere, yes, if something isn’t “gotten” by everyone, it’s considered bad satire, and that’s incorrect. I believe that satire works best when aimed at subsets of “everyone”. However, some bad satire is pawned off with “oh, you just don’t get it”. Or maybe you just don’t get it. grin

Point 2, I’m getting old enough to consider myself pretty dumb. I don’t get alot on the first take. Something like Life of Brian, or This is Spinal Tap is so successful because it clobbers everyone with the obvious. I’m at a loss to list more subtle works of satire, maybe because alot of the truly subtle stuff has gone clear over my head.

I’m kind of babbling, and I’m not sure what literature standing on its own has to do with satire. I’ll think about it.

Comment #43: I Heart Puppies  on  08/17  at  05:57 PM

I’m by no means “erasing the Welsh national experience”—as a matter of fact, we’re of Welsh descent on my father’s side. So, a little less defensive, please.

(Somewhat famously so: my great-grandfather Lewis—of whom I have one memory, from when I was 4-years old—was second cousin to John L. Lewis, the labor leader who more or less created the AFL-CIO. My great-grandfather Lewis was a union organizer who often worked in tandem with his cousin, bore a remarkable resemblence to him, and my father has inherited the “Lewis” eyebrows.)

I may have been a callow undergrad in the United Kindgom, but I was shocked at the English snobbism against those who shared the same small island, especially when the landmass of Wales, Scotland and England was compact enough to remind me of small to medium-sized states in the U.S.

I was uncomfortably aware of the reasons for the Civil Rights movement in the United States as a child (reading James Baldwin at ten, for instance), and briefly being a Catholic child in the South, when Catholic churches were routinely torched by bigots. Which is another reason the English snobbism struck me as odd. The superficial differences between Britons (outside class distinctions) seemed to boil down to nothing but accents and which “state” they hailed from. 

(The shock including that it was a Welsh college professor saying he’d never be as accepted in the English academic community…)

And yessssssssssssssssss, I’m aware of the history of the snobbisim of the English toward their fellow Britons having to do hierarchy and ethnic groups, but I’d assumed that was something relegated more to the 19th century, until I butted up against it three-quarters of the way through the 20th century.

And I’m not sure hispanic or black experience in the United States is completely analogous, considering the even more hostility then to “wogs” and blacks in the United Kingdom.

Comment #44: judybrowni  on  08/17  at  06:23 PM

That’s not satire, that’s covering your exposed pimply arse with an 18th-century pamphlet.

Can I use that line next time it happens?

Comment #45: thecynicalromantic  on  08/17  at  06:29 PM

Feel free, cynicalromantic.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  06:36 PM

A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on it’s own. If you have to refer to a seperate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

That’s far from the only opinion out there from literature professors, though.  I would argue there’s no such thing as a context-less work that stands on its own.  All art lives in the viewer’s frame of reference.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  06:59 PM

Michelle at #28: Well, Tracie enjoys being politically incorrect for its own sake.  And sometimes she’s funny, but a lot of the time it’s just lazy and trolling for approval from sexist hipster dudes.  Which is probably the case here.  Which is definitely past the “she doesn’t get it” level to the “she doesn’t want to get it” level, and frankly, onto the “she gets it and then is deliberately going to pretend she doesn’t because she wants to maintain an image of crazyinbed”.  Which is just….I don’t know. I have given into the temptation to make fun of her for being desperate for approval, especially from a certain kind of dude, and then I feel bad, because I think that’s more sad than angry-making.

I agree we’re not at cross purposes.  You like the show, and I like the show.  But I just think concerns about it being misread are overstated.  It’s too powerful a show to be subtle.  The unfeminist engagement you’re seeing, and that Christina Hendricks saw, comes from a place of willfully trying to redefine something that makes the viewer uncomfortable.  I don’t think that the show reinforces sexist narratives even with the stupid.  I think that people saying “kinda sorta rape” are trying to shove away the fact that the show showed them what they don’t want to believe, which is that rape is a display of dominance over women.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  07:06 PM

I spent alot of time with writers, musicians, actors, and artists, and the last refuge of the creator of an ill-conceived, or poorly executed piece is that “you don’t get it”.

I think the conversation can and should be about whether or not a piece is successful, but people want to avoid that, and for good reasons.  Figuring out why a piece works or doesn’t is hard.  You have to comb through it and give textual evidence for your argument.  But if you’re going to say that a piece of satire fails, then that’s the best and in my opinion, only real way to go about it.  Pointing to the reactions of stupid people, worrying about misinterpretation, etc.—-not going to work.  Most sexism pretending to be satire tends to fail internally.  There’s usually blatant contradictions or evidence that the artist wanted to have it both ways.  “Mad Men” doesn’t have any of those markers.  Their argument is pretty obviously, “That these people are sympathetic as people doesn’t mean their behavior is anything other than disgusting, and nostalgia for the 50s that you hear from conservatives is clearly based in racism/sexism, though most people are too polite to say so.  But we’re not.”

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  07:11 PM

I was shocked at the English snobbism against those who shared the same small island

I am told my English grandmother detested her Irish side of the family. and her father was a Catholic, which is perhaps why he and his brother traveled to China and the Far East to make their way.

My great-grandfather was fired from his job as a piano tuner because he married my Chinese great-grandmother,  and although he found a job at the British Consulate he was so bad with sums that he’d have g-g-mother take care of the book for the petty cash account.

<u>I’m aware of the history of the snobbisim of the English toward their fellow Britons having to do hierarchy and ethnic groups, but I’d assumed that was something relegated more to the 19th century, until I butted up against it three-quarters of the way through the 20th century.</u>

The English expatriates in Shanghai, China, before WWII looked down on Eurasians such as my grandparents families were, but Eurasians were considered to be above the rich Chinese, and my grandfather used to hang out with Chinese who were in the Green Dragon Tong, Chaing-kai Shek’s old gang.


OTOH, when Mother Avenger married Professor Avenger, his Texas-born and bred family were more concerned with the fact that she was a Papist as they were Baptist/Methodist.

Comment #50: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/17  at  07:52 PM

A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on its own. If you have to refer to a separate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

As a lit prof myself, I have to disagree. It now takes most undergrad English majors extensive contextual study before they can “get” Pope’s poetry; the political and religious background one needs, the knowledge of Christian allusion and British history—nevermind the language and sheer poetics—make the beauty and power of Pope fairly inaccessible to the average digi-kid nowadays.  Like Chaucer and yes, even Shakespeare, he’s a DWM who needs a lot of accompanying footnotes in 2009.  But he’s anything but “vague” and he sure as hell “stands on his own” and he can still send shivers down people’s spines if they’ve invested the time.  Many of Pope’s own contemporaries lacked the neoclassical education to “get” him too; the fact that so many people today can’t make it past page 100 of Foucault’s Pendulum invalidates Eco’s work? 

In literary criticism, there appear to be two schools of thought; I call them the Hemingway vs. the Wilde schools.  Some readers rate quality through simplicity, others through literary acrobatics—and many tend to suggest that the other way is fundamentally flawed.  They are both wrong and both right—there’s more than one way to make great literature, as both Hemingway and Wilde texts deserve to be appreciated by many (though never by all, of course, thanks to subjectivity and taste).  I take it your prof was of the Hemingway school…lucky are they with a more varied aesthetic.

Comment #51: Ranylt  on  08/17  at  09:07 PM

But if you’re going to say that a piece of satire fails, then that’s the best and in my opinion, only real way to go about it.

Well, no worry about having to say that about this first episode of season 3. Roger with his Stoli and Cubans ... I was giggling through that whole scene, and then they topped it with Moneypenny, his boss and that ant farm.

I know they all can’t be winners, but there’s something to be said for a good start.

Comment #52: Gracchus.  on  08/17  at  10:15 PM

Joining the thread late…

A literature professor once told me that a work should stand on it’s own. If you have to refer to a seperate book of footnotes to get the allusions, maybe it’s just a bit too vague.

I also heard a creative writing professor say that “You have to sneak your themes in the back door.”

I’m a literature professor too—hey, Ranylt, Pope comes up for me in a few weeks—and I can’t imagine how I’d enforce this “stand on its own” edict for anything I teach.  Obviously there are huge swathes of audience who don’t get every allusion, theme, or what you will, including professional literature-professor types.  The text still works on that audience, just in a different way.  And it’s because interpreting the meaning and message of a cultural artefact (book, TV show, sculpture, etc.) is tricky that it’s fun and rewarding to do.

Comment #53: FlipYrWhig  on  08/17  at  10:28 PM

if you want to see a beautiful, classic play that still evokes timeless human sentiment, you see Shakespeare

JohnGor0, you’re in the pocket of Big Shakespeare.

(I’m only partly kidding.)

Comment #54: FlipYrWhig  on  08/17  at  10:31 PM

I don’t know how a work stands on its own if you don’t know the language, either.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/17  at  11:45 PM

I find Mad Men, sadly, to be a very mediocre show. It seems aimed squarely at middle, artistically. Specifically, I am always angered by the failure of film and television, which ostensibly intend to present “realistic” portrayals of bygone eras, to effectively grapple with their contemporary lens. Instead of properly alienating, shows and movies like Mad Men, seduce. Viewers believe they are watching an accurate portrayal of a given period, instead of a contemporary artifact loaded with the social, cultural, and political markers of the period in which it was produced. Viewers are reassured by such things, as cliches and aphorisms are reinforced.

One scene in particularly stands out in my mind. Don Draper is in a cafe listening to a “beat poet,” which is presented as a cultural signifier: “This really was what it was like in the Village!” Of course, the scene is awful and feels built from the scraps of sidebars found in popular history texts. The “square” in the beat cafe is an absurd television cliche. I refer you to The Munsters episode in which Herman goes to a cafe, hangs out with the beats, and recites poetry. (For a fascinating and anxious representation of beat culture, take a look at the B-picture A Bucket of Blood.)

For these reasons, Mad Men reminds me of the deeply mediocre (awful?) HBO series Rome.

Comment #56: Popes Eye  on  08/18  at  01:07 PM

Something that needs to be said is that americans, in general, have a hard time grasping the notion of a “protagonist” who is not also a “hero” and a “hero” as someone who is not also someone to be admired, envied, and emulated.  The more sophisticated you are, and the more kinds of stories you have encountered, the more you grasp that the “protagonist” isn’t necessarily the author’s double and that every event in the story isn’t necessarily there because its part of a morality tale, or to make the reader feel good. You get this confusion all the time in generic, middle brow, responses to something like, say, Lolita.  When you watch a foreign film from pretty much anywhere else you can see how shocked americans are that the “end” or the resolution doesn’t follow classic hollywood conventions—the good aren’t always rewarded. The bad aren’t always punished. The wealthy aren’t always bad, the poor aren’t always good, cinderella doesn’t get the prince, hard work doesn’t result in good fortune….blah…blah…blah.

In the Sopranos, which someone brought up upthread, Tony was a classic case. He was the protagonist and we saw the world through his eyes (frequently) and his actions made a certain kind of sense and were even, sometimes, meritorious or akin to actions we think of as meritorious (marrying, loving, raising children). But the writers were trying to tell us that even a charming guy can be a sociopath. In the end they had to do exactly what Amanda said could have been done with Joan’s rape scene (draw a red line through it and put “its rape!”).  Dr.Melfi has to literally *hear* it said to her at a dinner party and then *see it written on the page* as she reads a study about sociopaths before she can grasp that tony’s evil isn’t on the surface, its all the way to the bone. And yet, as viewers who have invested a lot of time in tony its still hard for us not to grieve his murder and the end of the show (if he was murdered, which they leave out of the series). 


Why should draper’s character be any different? The viewer and the writer and the actor are on a journey through the series which may bring some events (a party, a word, a rape) into a different light.  Many people may, in the end, see Draper as truly evil and even his good parts as being merely a cover. Or he might be redeemed, or humbled, or atone in some way that enables the viewer to go on loving him as a character and to continue dismissing his evil acts. We can’t know right now just from reader response. This is going to be a long process.

aimai

Comment #57: aimai  on  08/18  at  01:11 PM

We do sometimes, at Basket of Kisses, get this kind of reader (mostly not; mostly they stay on AMC’s Talk Forum), but in general, I find the viewers of Mad Men (at least our readers) are aware, incredibly intelligent, and feminist.

We had one commenter, right after Joan was raped, say she was “practically raped,” and by the time he’d apologized (quite quickly), four other commenters were already ripping him a new one. It is heartening.

Comment #58: DeborahLipp  on  08/20  at  06:45 PM
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