Amanda - I’ve read a lot of commentary on this issue, and you’re the first blogger I’ve read who points out that the belly-baring costume is almost deliberatly non-offensive; masculine, but it still bares some skin. A little sexy, but mostly demure.

I remember, as a teen, pausing Britney Spear’s “Hit Me Baby One More Time” video just at the point where you could see her stomach bulge (when she does a high kick). We’ve come a long way down.

Aww, I love the Dresden Dolls and thought this video was pretty cool, and liked the Cabaret homage (didn’t see the swastika-like flag, though).  Besides, I like the psuedo-sarcastic refrain “Who needs love when there’s Southern Comfort?)  Her “creepy” eyebrows are sort of a signature thing: in the “Girl Anachronism” she’s drawing them on.

Wow, there has to be some sort of agenda at work here because you can’t even really see her belly.  I mean, you get wide shots that let you know that, at times, her belly could be exposed, but I was unable to actually see her abdominal area as anything more than a whiteish tannish blur. 

On the other hand, if her label had insisted that a pair of opaque aviator glasses be digitally added to her face during every close shot I wouldn’t blame them….

That was mostly a joke, but who let goddamn Ben Folds get his mediocre, safe, and soulless self anywhere near Amanda Palmer?  If anything good comes of this it may be that her new label won’t be able to afford his production fees.  She should have dropped her label for creating a scenario in which we can impregnate the worst of the mediocre mainstream with the least saleable elements of AP’s unique sound.  Yech.

Yeah, that’s just ridiculous.  Even by the extreme double standard for appearance, female singers can’t all have bellies like Fergie.  And she barely even has one there, maybe about what Britney had for her abortive comeback performance at the VMAs.

A note on the side note.  The Dresden Dolls toured with Titler, a singing Hitler drag performer who uses a Kurzweil keyboard that had been altered to read Kurt Weill.  That is to say, Amanda Palmer is no stranger to using decontextualized Nazi imagery.

Well, I suppose Ben could have just whipped it out for her.  And by “it” I mean “his portfolio.”  And by “whipped” I mean “taken her page by page through the magical world of riches open to a mainstream performer.”  Who am I to judge anyway?  I’d sell my soul to someone for a down payment on a decent condo and some help with my credit cards.

Hmm, Fatman I didn’t know that.  I’ve only seen the Dresden Dolls once in concert, in St. Paul and they definitely were not touring with a Hitler knock-off.

I’m also not the biggest Bens Fold Five fan, actually, but I do like DD.

The timing of all this is really funny to me, because two days ago, for some reason I cannot remember, my mind went back to a discussion in a comment thread about how much women lose by being slightly overweight. Might have been your review of Courtney Martin’s book. I didn’t participate in this part of the thread, but you were arguing that even at 140, you noticed a big difference in how you were treated and that women have a lot at stake in maintaining their weight. And several other commenters were saying that women should just give a fuck you to the whole system and be comfortable at their comfortable weight (which for a lot of women would be whatever the proportional equivalent of you at 140 is). I was inclined to agree with those saying fuck it. I don’t have a great perspective on the issue, being reasonably thin without a ton of effort going into it, but I got to be overweight for a bit after I had my son, and I didn’t think my life was awful. So anyway, long story short, I’m mulling that whole conversation over in my head two days ago, and then yesterday you had the bit about Tina Fey and Melissa had this thing about Amanda Palmer and I’m rethinking my take on it. Yes, it’s show business, but it’s SNL and slightly obscure bands, two areas of show business where you would think women would have a little more wiggle room. Apparently not. Kind of disappointing.

This is ridiculous. I weigh 106 pounds and *I* have more of a belly than she does. How the fuck thin are we supposed to be to be acceptable?? 80 pounds?

Don’t get me wrong, Titler is about as far as one can get from being a neo-Nazi.  I was just pointing out that the taking of imagery from the end of the Wiemar Republic would not be unheard of.  But the Kurt Weill reference pretty much dispels any doubts about a desire to cast Hitler in a positive light.  Titler’s act would have meant a death sentence during the Nazi period.

When I saw the Dresden Dolls they did a cover of War Pigs that was simply amazing.

Sorry for being off topic.  Please continue with the discussion of the main body of the post.

This is ridiculous. I weigh 106 pounds and *I* have more of a belly than she does. How the fuck thin are we supposed to be to be acceptable?? 80 pounds?

Nooooo, Broce, then we’re disgustingly bone-thin like was derided by random men on the Pirelli calendar thread.

I can think of one “recording artist” whose work was improved by Ben Folds’ participation: William Shatner.

Which, I guess, should tell you something.

My suspicion is that when the record company heard the pitch for the video they got some sort of Britney/Christina aerobicized teenager vision of Wiemar decadence, not an actual adult woman artist performing the same.  Actually, I was intrigued at how cleverly the costuming and camera angles flattered her.  Someone cut those pants to exactly hit the right spot.

I haven’t understood the whole Amanda Palmer thing.  If I don’t like it, the music snobs usually do, glad to know I was right for once!  The video did make me want to watch Sohodolls Stripper again.  Depeche Mode beats Ben Folds anyday.

Must put Cabaret in the Netflix queue.

Can anyone recommend original Weimar material?  Silent film?

I’ve met Amanda before and she is a very awesome lady.  She definitely enjoys playing around with her image (she did a take-off of “Twin Peaks” Laura Palmer for her new album), but it seems to be always on her own terms.  So the video seems appropriate in that regard.

I’m glad she’s sticking to her guns.

Oh, but annejumps:

It’s not the thick or the thin, it’s the muscle tone. No perfectly defined lats, no obsession with keeping the gut sucked in while singing or dancing; it’s almost as if she didn’t think of her body entirely in terms of its ability to titillate entitled young and middle-aged men.

Well, paul, as long as she doesn’t get all muscley and gross like Madonna, right? I mean, we can’t have that, either….

She’s fat? Whoa, you should check out the ladies at my local watering hole, The Blood Clot Bar.  She’d look like a drinkin straw next to our female denizens (and I’m not even counting the lads, who are mostly wider than they are tall).

Understand that part of the derision for thin women comes from women who, like me, are overweight and have faced derision from both thin women and a culture that idolizes them.  (I put on my weight in the Marines from both pregnancy and injury, where they take what your size would be in civilian clothing and add four to give you your uniform size, if that’s any indicator of the culture I come from.)

It doesn’t mean thin women are to blame.  I had a friend in high school who probably never broke a hundred pounds, and that girl ate herself half to death - she just had a crazy metabolism.

I try not to deride like that because it feeds back into the same bullshit mentality, and I know that different people have different bodies and they’re all beautiful, but understand that sometimes it gets really, really tiresome to hear about how hard it is to be thin while you’re invisible to the world at large because of fifty pounds.  It doesn’t invalidate the complaint.  They’re just different forms of the same problem.

INTPagan, I do understand that, but being thin does not equal not being invisible. Thin doesn’t equal attractive just like larger doesn’t equal unattractive, despite the narratives society tries to sell us. I am not an attractive thin, so I am not idolized, and I’m essentially invisible to men, too. The dichotomy society tries to sell us breaks down on individual levels. I’ve been underweight all my life and I’m tired of it. But hey, grass is always greener and all that.

The issue is not weight per se, but attractiveness, the standards for which change while the pressure, and the rewards given to people who meet the standards continue.

Also, the derision I was talking about, at least, came from two men in the Pirelli thread who proclaimed their dislike of thin women unprompted. Because God forbid a thread on women’s looks go by without some guy showing up to deride something

For what it is worth, and not that it matters, but I think she’s smokin’ hot in this video.

Mo, there’s plenty of excellent Weimar Republic stuff out there. Mädchen in Uniform is one of my favourite movie, about an all-girls school and teenage love for a teacher, the great classics of Nosferatu, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, The Blue Angel with Marlene Dietrich. It was a hotbed of subversive writing and art (and of course the opposite, with nationalistic and nostalgic sentiments being on a high tide). Difficult to point to one source to go to, but The Weimar Republic Sourcebook is a huge collection of writings of the time (though a bit expensive).
I would also recommend reading some history of the era and Berlin in particular, like Before the Deluge by Otto Friedrich. For a modern fictional take on the period that I’m currently enjoying, I’d look to Berlin: City of Stone by Jason Lutes.

I feel you INTP.  As a relatively fat person, my automatic gut response to hearing a thin woman complain about being thin is to think:  “Oh, fuck off!”  But then I realize that comes from a place of fat-hating, that I only think that because I hate that I’m fat and I think I’m gross and that all my problems would be solved if I were 60 pounds lighter.  But they wouldn’t be solved, they’d just be different, and I’d probably still hate myself.  The real solution is finding self-esteem and fighting for all bodies to be considered OK and lovable.

For Weimar-era films, I recommend Spione
and M.

This is ridiculous. I weigh 106 pounds and *I* have more of a belly than she does. How the fuck thin are we supposed to be to be acceptable?? 80 pounds?

98 pounds and ditto. I think it’s just where most women carry their weight; every woman I’ve ever seen in a belly shirt that hasn’t been on the cover of an aerobics magazine has it. On my own body at least it’s part of the band of fat that give me hips. Even when I was dancing a lot and doing five minutes worth of situps everyday it never went away. If it’s that natural then I don’t think anybody should be complaining about it.

That said, wow that song needs less piano. I think I would actually like it if not for that.

Amanda Palmer joined in over at Metafilter.

Bah, it’s just an excuse.  Don’t mistake my point here, it’s stupid that anyone would comment on a musician’s belly.  Do people say Bob Lutz is too fat to run GM?  Fuck no they don’t.  He’s a man for one and he’s an empty suit for second.  Pointing out the belly thing is just an excuse.

Here’s my point and it’s not exactly the point of the thread but I think it matters.  Who in the fuck releases a record with a label especially when they have a following?  What’s wrong with Palmer?  I don’t think she deserves what she’s getting from roadrunner but anyone, repeat, anyone who signs to a record label does deserve the raping they get because that’s what record labels do.  It’s what they’ve always done and it’s what they always will do.  Welcome to the world.

There’s absolutely no excuse for Palmer to have signed her control away from this project except, and this is just a guess, she’e either lazy or wanted a fat advance, otherwise there really is no reason to do it.  Jeebus effing gilchrist, look at the major people raking in the bucks releasing their own records. Not to mention the thousands of smaller and regional bands now not chasing that worthless gold electroplated fleece and DIYing it.

So yeah, roadrunner is stupid for ever saying something as asshatted, sexist and stupid as Palmer’s belly is too big but Palmer is just as big an ass for putting herself into the position where anything anyone else says matters.

Oh great let’s have a huge debate about selling out instead.

I liked the video and the eyebrows.

The ab issue was a manufactured beef by the record label, if ever there was one—even by the distorted standards of the image-editing entertainment industry.

She looks every inch the mainstream female pop star.

I don’t find her outfit flattering, but I doubt that’s the point.  But really, if anyone’s after eye candy, there’s plenty in that video even if you don’t like Ms. Palmer’s outfit or appearance.  But I can’t say that I really noticed her belly as anything other than bare.  I was kind of freaked out by her eyebrows, but not in a bad way.  Ditto the hat. 

Still, I wouldn’t kick her out of bed even if she was eating four sleeves of Saltines, not that that should be the standard.  Nonetheless, those record execs have some serious cranial sewage.  If she’s fat, then Auschwitz was a fitness club.

Ben Folds offered, and apparently she was beside herself with joy.  I will say no more on this subject, as it could get deadly

I suppose Amanda’s waiting for someone to take the bait.  I’m bored, so I guess I will :  please explain the hate for this guy.  While I don’t have any of his albums, his stuff on Youtube doesn’t seem bad (except for the song with Regina Spektor - big mistake on her part.)  He has a song about abortion (Brick), a song making fun of suburban life (Rockin’ the Suburbs), and a song making fun of the Bible Belt (Jesusland), and a song making fun of sexism (Bitches Ain’t Shit.)  Those all seem melodic and structured well.  They’re also solidly liberal-leaning.  Most people have never heard of Ben Folds, so I’m not sure how he corresponds to “mainstream” (as if that were necessarily bad), or “safe”, as Andy put forth above.  Anyone willing to take a crack at it?

BTW - Amanda Palmer, if you’re reading this : yuo=awesome!11 If you’re going to work with someone, please please do it with a friend like Regina.  I can only imagine the result.

I always wondered what choking a chicken would actually sound like.  And now I know.  *shudder*

This is ridiculous. I weigh 106 pounds and *I* have more of a belly than she does. How the fuck thin are we supposed to be to be acceptable?? 80 pounds?

This is something I’ve been thinking about intensely for the last week. I’m 5’1” and weigh in at about 115, but I rock a size 0 in pants. When the topic of weight comes up, men and fuller women usually estimate mine at around 100. Do I have a lead kidney or something? An osmium femur? Where does that extra 15 pounds come from?

The “magic number” of 100 pounds to signify thinness is strange and arbitrary, but it’s been implanted into our psyche as “You must weigh this little to count as ‘skinny.’” Perhaps women feel pressure to misrepresent their weight enough such that men (and women, too) have internalized the idea that a fit-looking woman of average height like Amanda Palmer weighs closer to 100 than 150. I think there’s an arms race going on wherein women will feel more and more pressure to under-report their weight, until one day someone my size will ink in 59 lbs on their DMV form with a straight face. A similar arms race has developed in numerical sizes for women’s fashion; a size 6 at the Gap today is larger than a size 6 at the Gap was 20 years ago. Maybe this bizarre obsession with arbitrary numbers originated with the 36-24-36 ideal that was invented mid-century.

This isn’t a scathing assessment of women for wanting to be considered thin. It’s a critique of the fallacies women are forced to construct because our society demands it. We have an obsession and competitiveness with numerical representations of our bodies (weight, body measurements, dress size) that’s completely disassociated from reality.

Well, paul, as long as she doesn’t get all muscley and gross like Madonna, right? I mean, we can’t have that, either….

At the risk of talking about myself again ... I’ve had a bad case of “Madonna arms” since puberty, and playing water polo in high school didn’t help. My male peers would poke fun by challenging me to arm wrestling matches. Yay tenuous high school girl’s self-esteem! It’s taken years and years for me to look in the mirror and not be disgusted by my arms, and I still struggle with it.

The moral of the story: Women can’t win. We’re either too fat, too lazy to have muscles, too skinny to look reproductively viable, or too muscular to not be threatening. If Amanda Palmer had a six-pack she’d affront her male record company counterparts by being too masculine.

As someone who has never listened to DD or Amanda Palmer, I really liked this song. Her voice is really different, and it’s got a good catchy hook (full disclosure, I have 3 or 4 BFF songs on my iPod for what it’s worth).

And yeah, if someone calls that belly fat then they’re nuts.

But my question is, what connection does she have with Leeds United FC?

@ luzzleanne
You know, I think the one thought that I can be absolutely sure has not and will not ever pass through the heads of either Ben Folds or Amanda Palmer is “there should be less piano.”

@ PWI
I can’t speak for everyone but I don’t have hate Ben Folds, more like disdain.  He’s generally milquetoast and bucolic.  I found the Dresden Dolls were edgy, provocative, and absolutely unrestrained.  Those are not qualities I would ever think to associate with Ben Folds, and it seems that teaming him up with Amanda Palmer would only blunt her edge while adding nothing of value.

...Okay, I know every word to Brick, but that’s just because the goddamn chorus sticks in my head every time I hear it.  Or think about it… Crap.

I think muscley women are sexy.  (Except the bodybuilders, but then, male bodybuilders are gross too—and I’m the kinda guy that can admit when a guy is sexy.)  I’m not threatened by a woman who can kick my ass.

I always think of Tara on Buffy when these issues come up. Somehow she was the “fat” one because she was always next to these size o’s and she was, you know, normal.

How could anyone concentrate on this woman’s stomach when her voice sounds like a laryngitis sufferer’s first day trying to talk again?  That’s fucking painful.

“one thought that I can be absolutely sure has not and will not ever pass through the heads of either Ben Folds or Amanda Palmer is ‘there should be less piano.”

I don’t understand the piano diss.  It’s kind of hard to be a decent musician without serious exposure to the piano, isn’t it?  How are you going to learn theory otherwise?

“He’s generally milquetoast and bucolic…Dresden Dolls were edgy, provocative, and absolutely unrestrained.”

Maybe they should focus on using edgy and provocative instruments like electric guitars? 

(I should add that don’t I hate electric gee-tars - I own one, though I can’t really play it.)

What, rebecca? I just beat their asses arm wrestling, lift heavy packages, and grin.

If I gotta have a body that loves to pack on muscle, I’m gonna love being Warrior Woman. I dreamed of being a willowy, tall and lean tomgirl, but I decided eventually to love what I am.

Not that I don’t totally understand the pressure not to conform to conventional (not traditional!) beauty standards. It was a struggle for me to learn to define my body type in a way I liked, instead of “sturdy peasant”.

Andy and PWI:

I know they’re both piano players, and it wasn’t meant to be a diss at the piano in general. I just really don’t like it in this song. The repition killed some of the intensity for me; probably just a strange personal thing.

Somehow she was the “fat” one because she was always next to these size o’s and she was, you know, normal.

I feel like the rich white dude who complains about affirmative action when I say things like this, but here goes: I wish women didn’t have to be classified as normal or abnormal based on their bodies. It’s disappointing that thin women are considered somehow not a “normal” woman or not a “real” woman, or some folks skinny women restrict their eating or must be sacrificing and suffering to maintain a certain weight. (Boo-dee-fucking-hoo, right?)

dooflow, I don’t mean to pounce on your use of a single word. Statistically, yes, small women are abnormal, just as large women are abnormal. And there’s nothing in any of these comments that has been explicitly critical smaller women, so I don’t mean to stir the shit. It’s simply interesting to me how feminist discussions of women’s bodies sometimes branch into defining which women get to qualify as normal because they achieve a minimum body fat percentage.

I’m not threatened by a woman who can kick my ass.

I hear this phrase a lot, and I’m not sure what to make of it. On the one hand, I’m uneasy about using women’s physical appearance as a measurement of what they’re capable of, and I’m uneasy about using bodies as a proxy for establishing power dynamics. On the other hand, I appreciate it when sexual attraction defies norms, and I understand that being able to have one’s ass kicked may precisely be what’s attractive about a buff women to some men. Then again, sometimes the part of your brain that tells you who to find sexy doesn’t give a crap about social subtexts.

I can’t believe that in this day, when talking about a singer in the prime of her career, it is about her belly.

It amazes me.

I don’t know what the fuss is about, she is dancing up a storm and her clothes cover her up for the most part.  She looks wonderful and definitely the type that was in style during the Weimar Republic, curvy and stubbornly androgynous.

I think the record execs were hoping more Liza Minelli/Bob Fosse than the elegant looking Marlene Dietrich.  That is what is getting their tempers in a tizzy.

I’m not threatened by a woman who can kick my ass.

Interesting . . .  I had a completely positive reaction to it, Rebecca.  In an ideal world we would never judge a book by its cover, but we all do, and we all have different reactions to what we see.  Using someone’s physical appearance as the *only* measurement of capability, intelligence, health, etc. is foolish, but I obviously don’t think that’s an approach to interpersonal relationships that anyone here would espouse.  And this is a really superficial example of bucking a “power dynamics” norm.  I’m not criticizing what you’ve written, but I think relationships are so convoluted by cultural, personal, class and sometimes religious expectations and traditions that big vs. little is one of the least effective proxies for identifying who in the relationship is the dominant party, if either person actually is.

I think comments like that are refreshing, because it’s another way of saying, look, it doesn’t bother me that you are who you are.  I don’t need you to fit into my box, or western society’s preferred love-match box.  Whether these men seek out powerful women because they want to be dominated or because they want to be with someone who could dominate them is individualized; or the idea of a woman’s physical strength in relation to a man’s could be totally incidental and not one of the (conscious) reasons why he’s involved with her. 

Course, I’m in a relationship with a man who underweighs me by 40 lbs and has an RSI injury that keeps him from being physically fit in normal, functional ways, and yet despite his statements that he’s as strong as I am, he’s not the one lifting the air conditioners out of the window. 

Anyway, I digress.  Gender role dynamics are complicated and can really fuck up relationships if people can’t deal with “feminized” men and “masculine” women, so I’m all for anyone’s rally cry to fuck it all, if the person is being serious.

You just gotta see The Dresden Dolls live to understand. I’ve seen them and I understand. And what about Brian Viglione, the other half of the Dolls? He’s all over this vid and no one has mentioned him.

Amanda and Brian are the hardest working duo in show business. They have receiving lines after their shows and do not think they are too important to interact with their fans.

I can’t understand what all the hoopla is about. Amanda looks fine. Brian wears multiple outfits and he looks fine too.

And to those of you who don’t like the DDs sound. See them live if you can. It will be worth it.

I’m on the thin side but have always had a jiggly belly, even as a gymnast, cross country runner, and regular exerciser.  Most women are designed to have full, round bellies.  I think she looks fantastic and healthy (which is obviously a subjective assessment since I have no idea about her personal habits). 

Even if this is a manufactured controversy to mask other issues at her label, what message does it send to all girls and women about what constitutes an attractive female body?

deep6: I’m totally in agreement with you. I think what I was reacting to is, in less specialized environments than the comments of Pandagon (e.g., college, work, bars, etc.), sometimes men use the “I like a woman who could kick my ass” with a vibe that conveys a less nuanced appreciation of the fact that women are NOT defined by their bodies. Some men associate muscles with independence and assertiveness, and will make the “kick my ass” comment in a way akin to “I have friends who are black.” As in, “All the women I point out as being hot are skinny, but I see you and your big arms standing in front of me and I want to say something nice.” The other vibe I’ve gotten is “I’m imagining all the fun ways you could use those arms to put me in my place,” which, ya know, coming from a person you’ve just met can be unwelcome. I didn’t get either vibe from Svlad Jelly. But when you’ve heard it a hundred times sometimes it stops being refreshing and starts being patronizing, depending on the context.

Your relationship situation sounds like the kind of scenario where outsiders would foolishly feel sorry for your partner for not being able to assert his manliness by, I dunno, lifting refrigerators and punching mountain lions. I hope nobody gives either of you any guff.

I had a weird experience at the gym with a friend yesterday, where I was on the scale and lamenting the damages of Thanksgiving and stress, when this elderly lady walked by (late 60s-early 70s maybe?) She started talking to us in passing, and was basically like “oh, I think that scale runs a little light, don’t you?” and I was like *DIE* because I had been promising myself that it ran a little heavy… It was odd though, because I got the impression that she was trying to be nice or reassuring or something.

Then I remembered some of those ads from (I dunno, the 20s? 40s?) selling weight-gain supplements for women, and I was wondering if she was perhaps operating on the cultural assumption that I *wanted* to put on weight, and was trying to assure me that I was plenty plump. And that made me feel better, ‘cause I was reminded that the whole thin-is-best! thing was pretty damn recent, and I kind of warmed up to the old lady after she left.

Or she just was totally inconsiderate. One of those. ^^;

In an effort to rerail: I couldn’t see Palmer’s belly at all, except in one shot from the side where it apparently failed to be concave or something. Criminal!

(And I honestly don’t even know *how* people can weigh less than 100 lbs. I’m like 5’3” and I swear my *skeleton* weighs more than that! I’m not saying it’s not healthy and attractive and all that, but I always think “are you hollow-boned like a bird? Geez!” :D)

Two things, one trivial the other, well probably trivial as well.

One, the whole argument about her belly is ridiculous.  End of story.  For me, if she had fifty pounds hanging over her belt buckle it would be sexist, irrelevant and just plain dumb.  Arguing about a musical artist’s belly tone may not be beyond ridiculous but the criticism is.  So the idea we’re comparing who’s fat and what defines fat is falling for the old, letting someone else frame the debate mistake.  Like race, we, as a society, should be looking far beyond these prejudices.  That’s not to tolerate only to say that arguing over the limits of what is fat or what is not fat is wrong.  Why do we care?

Two, Folds is one the very best melodic pop songwriters of his generation.  Add to that, he’s a pretty solid lyricist.  I can completely why some people wouldn’t like him or enjoy his music.  That’s subjective.  His talent, that’s apparent and I think not acknowledging that belittles the commenters.

luzzleanne :

“it wasn’t meant to be a diss at the piano in general. I just really don’t like it in this song”

Oh - sorry to get all defensive.  At least here in Texas, the piano seems coded as feminine, and of course feminine = inferior and mockable.  I’m perhaps unnecessarily sensitive about it.

pursuing the side topic with ice weasel :

“Who in the fuck releases a record with a label especially when they have a following..this is just a guess, she’e either lazy or wanted a fat advance, otherwise there really is no reason to do it.” 

Maybe DD wanted their music to be heard by a lot of people?  I think you can make the case that someone who wants an audience outside of the computer proficient has to put out a CD, even these days (and there are even computer-proficient people like me who still want CD’s.) Those CD’s have to get in buyers’ hands, and to get there they have to go through a distribution channel, as well as being advertised for sale.  While DIY gurus like Jenny Toomey (Jenny, please make music again!) have fought against the big record companies, it’s still difficult for a musician to go past a certain number of CD sales without getting an RIAA tentacle involved.  Does it suck?  Of course.  The inner-tubes will eventually kill CD’s, but not today.  I don’t blame DD for trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I think maybe the label execs were more bothered by the guys kissing, but didn’t want to talk about it.

I met Amanda Palmer in person only a few weeks ago and I can say two things with some certainty.

First, though the production values of the video are quite good, that’s got to be because they did a lot with what they had. This album and the subsequent advertising and tour are being pulled off on a single threadbare shoestring. A number of the performers on the tour aren’t even getting paid because there simply isn’t the money.

Second, no one with their senses would ever call Amanda Palmer fat. In fact, she is very fit. I only wish I had a jaw line like hers. She’s one of those people, unlike most models, that is much more attractive in person than in a picture.

If anyone has the chance, absolutely be sure to go to her show. It’s powerful, avant-garde and very intimate.

To Bacopa:

And what about Brian Viglione, the other half of the Dolls? He’s all over this vid and no one has mentioned him… Brian wears multiple outfits and he looks fine too.

Brian is not actually in the video, which may be why he hasn’t been mentioned. This is Amanda’s solo work. I am interested in where you thought you saw him though?

What are the chances that it isn’t about “fat” at all but that the idea of fat is so tied into attractiveness that it’s essentially a buzzword? Doesn’t change the underlying issue - the Rolling Stones have a career, and yikes on the looks front, but really.

My guess is that there’s a whole lot more going on behind the scenes, and if the article is right - that most of their other acts are less-than-svelte male groups, that they were looking for someone who would be HAWT, and got someone fierce and gender-bendery rather than a centerfold. So “nobody is going to whack off to this video” turns into “belly fat.”

Either that, or Amanda’s guess that it is because they know what she looks like in jeans and a t-shirt, and the makeover didn’t turn her into a centerfold, so they saw fat that wasn’t there.

I am an old fuddy-duddy now, but my musical habits developed about 20 minutes before videos were invented (my first post-college roommate was all about how I needed to check out this new cable channel that had just come out with them.) and I still resist them. If I want pictures in my head to associate with a song, I’ll put them there myself. (I know, uphill in the snow, both ways.)

At the same time, wearing a costume that bares your belly invites comment. The comments this particular belly is getting are stupid, but there it is. Elvis shouldn’t have worn the skin-tight suits during his fried banana sandwich period, either.

At the same time, I’d be intrigued to find out exactly which frames of that video were the ones under discussion, cause I sure didn’t see any showcasing any fat.

Oh, Rebecca, I spent jr. high and high school wanting arms like yours.  (You don’t get toned arms playing soccer and the violin.)  I wanted, among other things, to really rock a halter dress at the prom.  Of course, by the time the prom came around I wanted nothing to do with it.  But I spent a lot of time envying women in gyms and cafes and working out with barbells in my basement.

The 100 lb thing is weird.  I know about two healthy adults who weigh in under 100.  Women in my family are around 5 ft. tall and that wouldn’t be a good weight for any of us.  I think maybe a lot of folks have a certain round number they don’t want to break, cuz then they really feel overweight/fat, but 100 is out of the realm of realistic possibility for the vast majority.

“When I come home feeling all tired out and all worn
Your belly, your belly’s there, just like a port in a storm
Yes, yes, that’s how it is.
You got that belly I idolize.”

—“That Belly I Idolize,” The Holy Modal Rounders

I’m not threatened by a woman who can kick my ass.

I hear this phrase a lot, and I’m not sure what to make of it. On the one hand, I’m uneasy about using women’s physical appearance as a measurement of what they’re capable of, and I’m uneasy about using bodies as a proxy for establishing power dynamics. On the other hand, I appreciate it when sexual attraction defies norms, and I understand that being able to have one’s ass kicked may precisely be what’s attractive about a buff women to some men. Then again, sometimes the part of your brain that tells you who to find sexy doesn’t give a crap about social subtexts.

Huh. A very large component in this, for me, is the notion of competence and confidence. To be able to take on the stereotypically more physical sex requires confidence, drive and and the knowledge of fight techniques, as well as the ability to train the body to the required level. That’s a turn on to me.

Samantha, I’ve got the ‘peasant’ build, too. Big bones, wide shoulders and hips, and unusually muscular for a woman. Big boobs and hips to go with it. I wasted so many years hating it. I embrace it now, and strength-train regularly. I can’t help enjoying the ‘wow’ look on people’s faces when I use my muscle. My husband is physically fragile from cerebral palsy, so I do the heavy lifting and the opening of the jars.

On the belly thing: The reason why the bellies of performers like Fergie are always flat or concave is that they lipsynch. You can’t sing and suck in your gut at the same time.

“*A total side note, but there’s a shot of a flag that, if you weren’t looking too closely, seems to have a swastika on it.  It’s not!  I rewound it and watched.  But considering that the video and Palmer’s entire persona deliberately invokes the campiness of the cabaret in “Cabaret”, well, there’s baggage there that I shouldn’t have to spell out.  Why didn’t anyone think to take that out? “

Ummm….. Remember a certain controversy about a certain feminist blogger who used spear-chucking natives imagery in her book?  Why didn’t she think to take that out?

I have to be in a certain emotionally indulgent mood to appreciate Ben Folds. Otherwise he comes off as unattractively soft, precious, and preachy. But I think Rockford Files is cool.

Pop ideals of feminine sexual attractiveness have become so distant from nature, it’s grotesque. To achieve the look, it seems, absolutely requires rare genes, extensive surgery, and full-time gym training. There will have to be a backlash at some point. It would be nice to see actual healthy unaltered human females on a screen.

The only extremely-trained bodies I find attractive are athletes’. Body “sculpting” for purely aesthetic purposes produces creepy, ugly results in both sexes.

PEOPLE: The real reason to hate on Amanda Palmer is not for her bellyfat, but because she apparently likes Slipknot (see metafilter thread). That is unforgivable.

I also find her eyebrows unsettling., but not nearly so much as her eyeshadow, which makes her eyes look like the inside of oysters when she lowers her lids.

Jeez - I saw what may have been a slight belly thing going at one point, but it looked more like a lighting issue.  Christ, what are these guys expecting women to look like?

I could be wrong, but I really think that all of you have completely missed the point.

APS

Rebecca C.—...Some men associate muscles with independence and assertiveness, and will make the “kick my ass” comment in a way akin to “I have friends who are black.” As in, “All the women I point out as being hot are skinny, but I see you and your big arms standing in front of me and I want to say something nice.” The other vibe I’ve gotten is “I’m imagining all the fun ways you could use those arms to put me in my place,” which, ya know, coming from a person you’ve just met can be unwelcome. I didn’t get either vibe from Svlad Jelly. But when you’ve heard it a hundred times sometimes it stops being refreshing and starts being patronizing, depending on the context.

I certainly wasn’t trying to imply any of those things.  I was actually going for quick and amusing.  I am neither a fetishist nor a condescendingly nice type of person.  My underlying point was that lots of body types are sexy, and obsessing about one is like only listening to one kind of music.  How full would your life be if you only listened to Emo/Acoustic/Punk Rock or Piano/Pop with male vocals.  Yeah?

Maybe I should have gone with the Firefly “she can kill me with her pinkie” joke.  Wash/Zoe is a perfect example of a strong woman in a relationship of equals.  Yeah?  I think so.

I should also point out that I am scrawny and out of shape (though I’m more fit than I was six months ago,) and it is not entirely difficult to kick my ass when I am without a blunt instrument.  Most of the people on this site could probably whup my ass.  I’m not threatened.  I’m not!!!

...

I’m gonna go do some push-ups.

1…2…10…I could go for some chocolate cake.

Dresden Dolls:Weimar altpunk to the max.

Those asshats. Her belly is softly luscious, her figure is slender, her face is lovely. What do they expect, a twelve year old boy?

Lancelot… I suspect you are on to something. 

Fatman is absolutely right about the use of Weimar-era imagery in this and other cabaret-revival performances (including, of course, “Cabaret”)... the gender-bending sexual revolution of the late 20’s and early 30’s stood in direct opposition to the socially conservative, repressive, and nationalist order growing at the same time.  When the 1970’s rolled around and “gay rights” became a movement, the cabaret scene was a natural inspiration.  Nowadays, with the forces of social conservatism once again on the march, it makes sense that the theme is recurring.  Amanda Palmer isn’t just tiptoeing around fascism… she’s aggressively attacking what she sees as it’s contemporary Anglo-American manifestation: Beer-swilling violent racist homophobic hooligans who only seem to be stirred from their tv and their football when they want to stop other people from loving.

If there’s a reason the rock’n'roll label is afraid to promote this video, it’s probably because they see the majority of their market share as beer-swilling violent racist homophobic hooligans who would be uncomfortable even seeing portrayals of homosexuality or a gender-spectrum, let alone confronting their own issues with the matter.  That, or as you said, Lancelot, they are uncomfortable with it themselves.

Hey Svlad Jelly. Yeah, I didn’t mean to accuse you of those connotations. I didn’t get any creepy/condescending vibes from you. I didn’t mean to implicate you in anything unsavory. Your comment just reminded me of when folks with less humorous/sincere intentions use that particular phrase. All’s good!

I should point out that I happen to favor what certain communities refer to as, um, twinks. My husband is a regular shaving regimen away from resembling one. This of course doesn’t mean I like to predate on skinny, young men (I just like to look at them, jeez), so I appreciate that our physical tastes don’t necessarily correspond to behavioral preferences in partners.

P.S. I love myself some Ben Folds. I can’t help it. I like twinkie men and poppy music.

I love the Dresden Dolls and I like this song/video and will probably get it. But for the real cabaret sound you need to listen to the Paris Combo.

You just gotta see The Dresden Dolls live to understand. I’ve seen them and I understand. And what about Brian Viglione, the other half of the Dolls? He’s all over this vid and no one has mentioned him.

My first exposure to the Dresden Dolls was when they opened for Nine Inch Nails a few years ago.  When we got home from the show my wife promptly purchased every album they made.  I distinctly remember Brian going through something like 15 sets of drumsticks during their set.

Also no discussion of the Dresden Dolls is complete without this.

“I know that different people have different bodies and they’re all beautiful.”

No they’re not.  No we’re not.  We are not all beautiful.  And that should be OK.  Right?  I wish it weren’t so important for a woman to be beautiful that we need to say that all women are beautiful no matter what. 

It’s as if no matter what we think of the standards for beauty, we still think that being beautiful is so important, we make these statements that are supposed to make everyone feel good.  Next thing you know, we’re going to put it in the UDHR.
“All people are born free and equal”
“Everyone has the right to a nationality” 
“All women should be considered beautiful in their own way”.

@ice weasel,

My thoughts exactly.  I mean, I don’t know shit about her music, I’m certainly not part of her following, but she sounds pretty awesome, and in this day and age, you make a lot more money releasing your own stuff.  I wonder why, if she had a following, she would want to even work with a label.

It’s kind of hard to be a decent musician without serious exposure to the piano, isn’t it?  How are you going to learn theory otherwise?

Well, I learned it on guitar. I’m certainly no expert, but I think I can hold my own.  And I know plenty of others just like me in that respect.

I have always been a little physically repulsed by Amanda Palmer, but I still consider myself a fan of the Dresden Dolls, and Amanda Palmer’s solo album.  My favorite band in the world is the Dead Kennedy’s, but I’m not attracted to Jello Biafra either.  The problem isn’t whether she is fat or not, it’s that they are trying to market her as a pop icon sex object, which demeans her as a real artist.

Hi, I directed the video in question. A few fact clarifications:

1. Amanda costumed and styled herself. The jeans were I think from Topshop; the jacket was kindly loaned by London designer & stylist Aimee McWilliams. We wanted to contrast the over the top femininity/ice skate queen look of her backing dancers with something more androgynous.

2. This is an Amanda Palmer solo video. Brian Viglione is not in it at all - he wasn’t even on the same continent at the time.

3. Sarcastro is right - that’s not a Nazi flag, it’s a Leeds United football club flag (this is the exact style used in the video). In fact, the flag is a modified version of the English national flag, aka the Cross of St George. It’s a British cultural reference easily understood in Europe (where we know each other’s flags, and where football - ahem, “soccer” - culture is very widespread) and which I thought would be picked up in the video, given the overwhelming amount of football imagery we use. I’m torn between being really horrified that someone would be so irresponsible as to accuse me of using Nazi imagery (you know, the regime that would have killed me and all my friends had I been alive then) and really amused that someone thinks the English flag is the same as a Nazi flag. But yeah, we don’t do Nazi imagery. Ever.

4. The video was pitched to Amanda and then the label as “The Judy Garland Comeback Tour meets A Clockwork Orange”. I even spelled out to them the bits about deconstructing the female-artist-goes-solo, makes-diva-video trope. The label knew what they were in for.

5. The video’s budget was approximately 2p and a lint-covered polo mint. Roadrunner also cut our budget by 1/3 the week before the video (they took back the polo mint).

I know plenty of others just like me in that respect.

The composer Berlioz never learned to play or write for the piano, which I don’t think hurt him any, he learned the guitar, which does have the virtue of being polyphonic.

Alex:

I was reading “Among the Thugs” when I first saw this video and had just gotten to an account of an episode where a group of football supporters are involved in a food fight (Bugsy Malone, alas, does not appear.) 

I thought that was a funny coincidence.  It’s also a good book if you haven’t read it.

APS

Wow, forgot what it’s like to be in middle school. koo-koo, koo-koo.
Narcissists.

I thought I saw Brian in drag a couple of times.