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Next entry: The GOP to teenage girls: Why aren’t you giving birth? Previous entry: Turns out that the liberals were right all along

Some people work very hard/But still they never get it right

FeminismLiberalsMusic

I have a jumble of thoughts and a lot of other things vying for my attention, and my urge is right now to just give up.  But I think what I have to say matters right now, so I'm going to try.  I'll start with this Saturday, which I spent at a conference about Ellen Willis, a conference built around a posthumous release of her writings on rock music titled Out of the Vinyl Deeps.  Willis wrote about music in the context of her version of radical feminism, which was a pro-pleasure feminism that was highly critical of knee-jerk identity politics which often replace the right wing policing with a left wing one.  Not that Willis was a mindless choice feminist who claimed everything every woman does ever is great because it's her choice.  She just had a keen eye for the difference between legitimate, productive criticisms of genuine oppression and the pointless circular firing squad that erupts on the left when everyone starts to vie for the spot of purest, most noble progressive/feminist/etc.  The intersection of this and rock criticism was her willingness to work out in public why she wasn't going to feel bad about liking certain rock music even if it had misogynist content.  Kathleen Hanna spoke movingly on a panel of how Willis's work helped keep her sane after Riot Grrrl descended into a circular firing squad, or as Hanna put it, a "beauty pageant in reverse" where people were so busy trying to score points that real work in fighting the man had basically been forgotten.

I went home and proceeded to turn off the internet and start really pouring through this book, trying to really grapple with the ideas in it away from the din of the internet.  I haven't finished it, because Bin Laden got killed and that was a distraction---which I'll get back to in a moment---but I did manage to read a mind-blowing essay she wrote on her evolution away from being someone who didn't like punk rock to someone who did.  And she freely admits early on that a strain of internalized aesthetic Stalinism kept her from liking punk at first, because she perceived the dudeliness of the culture that led to an easy misogyny.  But, in a series of events that's too long to recount her but you can read in PDF form here (the essay is called "Beginning To See The Light"), she started to see how punk's form fit very nicely into her desires to poke holes in pretensions and hierarchies and power plays and other bullshit that feeds into our oppressive systems.

I want to quote a couple passages that are relevant.  In this first, she talks about her reaction the Sex Pistols' indisputably misogynist anti-abortion song "Bodies":

It was an outrageous song, yet I could not simply dismiss it with outrage. The extremity of its disgust forced me to admit that I was no strange to such feelings---though unlike Johnny Rotten I recognized that disgust, not the body, was the enemy.  And there lay the paradox: music that boldly and aggressively laid out what the singer wanted, love, hated---as good rock and roll did---challenged me to do the same, and so, even when the content was antiwoman, antisexual, in a sense antihuman, the form encouraged my struggle for liberation.  Similarly, timid music made me feel timid, whatever its ostensible politics.

Earlier, she describes with some irritation how intra-feminist politics made feminist music---and I would argue feminist expression generally---timid:

Years ago Ella Hirst had told me that she thought most female performers did not have a direct line to their emotions, the way men did---they were too busy trying to please.  It seemed to me that too many of the women's-culture people had merely switched from trying to please men to trying to please other women.

She goes on to describe an example:

A couple of years ago I had gone to see the feminist folk-rock group the Deadly Nightshade at a lesbian bar in Boston.  They sang "Honky Tonk Women" with rewritten, nonsexist lyrics.  Someone in the audience sent them an outraged note, attacking them for singing an antiwoman song. The lead singer read the note aloud and nervously and defensively complained that the writer hadn't been listening.  The incident helped me understand why I wasn't enthusiastic about the group.  They did not have the confidence, or the arrogance, to say or feel, "If you don't like it, tough shit."  It was not that I thought performers should be indifferent to the response of their audience.  I just thought that the question they ought to ask was not "How can I make them like me?" but "How can I make them hear me?"

These observations of Willis's echoed through my brain in two very different ways today: one regarding intercine warfare amongst feminist bloggers and one regarding the circular firing squad reaction of liberals who immediately set to shaming and scolding other liberals for celebrating that Bin Laden was killed.  Let's see if I can tease this out a little.

On the first one, what happened was Jill Filipovic issued a long response to the large numbers of humorless joy-killers who  hang out at Feministe, waiting for her to say something they can blow way out of proportion, so as to start a flame war accusing her of insensitivity or having nice things, which she is apparently supposed to feel bad about.  I have no idea what has managed to keep this place relatively free of the joy-killing trolls, though I have a few guesses I won't bother you with here.  Either way, I've always felt bad that Jill gets abused so much by bullies who hide behind feminism, and was glad to see her punch back.

 

But in the feminist blogosphere, “calling out” has increasingly turned into cannibalism. It’s increasingly turned into a stand-in for actual activism. We have increasingly focused on shutting down voices rather than raising each other up. Pointing at the gap has replaced doing the hard, often thankless work of filling it......

None of which, again, is to say that you should just turn your head if an important topic isn’t being addressed, or if something isn’t being addressed adequately, or if someone fucks up. It is to say that we should all keep the end goal in mind, and communicate accordingly. And none of this is about the Shameless post in particular — it’s about the entirety of this corner of the internet, and how we treat each other, and how there’s this weird sense that we’re all in competition for the Best Feminist prize and that we win by cutting each other down and calling each other out and denouncing anyone who gets more attention than we do.

Best Feminist prize: love it. It's hard to put your finger on when someone crosses the line from issuing a legitimate criticism to when someone is trucking in outrage for the hell of it, but like with obscenity, you know it when you see it. You can just tell when someone is more interested in feeling righteous than doing right, and when they prefer to tear down rather than build up.  Sometimes they prefer it because it's easier.  Sometimes they're bullies and assholes.  Most people I see doing this are genuinely just lazy. They don't want to meet people where they're at.  They don't want to be challenged.  They want clear black and white rules and they want to believe that oppression can be overcome by just policing other liberals endlessly to make sure they don't say words like "lame" or "crazy". They see some of the uglier emotions in people, like bitchiness or morbidity, and they want to silence instead of think about how these emotions can be channeled in the right direction. They want to score points in some game that never ends by mouthing off because you joked that someone is ugly or reacted with irreverence to some cultural event or piece of writing. They hear the Sex Pistols' "Bodies" and want to flip it off rather than grapple with the complex emotions it brings to the fore. 

But they're wrong.  Willis ends her essay "Beginning To See The Light" with this feeling of wanting to be challenged even by stuff that makes us uncomfortable because it falls outside of an easily defined set of rules about what you are and are not allowed to say and be a Good Feminist.  Turn a couple pages and you find Willis in 1997 noting, almost marginally, that this urge of hers ended up being the right one in retrospect.  Instead of abandoning punk rock because of the misogyny, many feminist-minded women were drawn to it because of its anarchist urges.  And they picked up guitars and started to make the music that there hadn't been before.  They started, as Jill suggests, to fill the gaps.  Grappling instead of silencing was more work, but what it created was greater.  It turned into Joan Jett.  It turned into Riot Grrrl.  It turned women into feminists who would have avoided it like the plague if the only path to feminism was a dour one centered around coaching people to watch their mouths instead of open their hearts.  Though Riot Grrrl did descend into a similar clusterfuck, and it similarly caused a lot of people to quit.  The people who survived and went on to make more music that is feminist in spirit and in content were those who decided that they simply were going to not let critics put them in a corner where they valued not-offending over speaking their truths.

What does this have to do with Osama Bin Laden?  Well, I saw a similar kind of thing going on with the reaction of many on the left who were made uncomfortable when others reacted not with a Christian-tinged sobriety, but with partying in the streets or crass jokes on Twitter.  They told us to shut up and quiet down and act with more "dignity", aka all this WASP shit that I'm so done with that I think I was born done with it.  When I see piety crop up so rapidly, my number one urge is to stick a clown nose on it, but I did try to respond at Double X more thoughtfully.  My feeling is that elation is a reaction that is understandable, and instead of trying to squelch it, we should try to understand it.  And by understanding it, we can use this feeling for our purposes, to demand an end to the war now that we've accomplished this goal. In other words, to listen to the Sex Pistols and instaed of turning it off in disgust, to think, "How can I use this and make something greater out of it?"

If feminists had abandoned punk rock, it would have degenerated into a stew of misogynist bile. By engaging it and channeling it, feminists were able to turn it into a feminist art form.  I see the jubiliant reaction to Bin Laden's death the same way.  Liberals can decide it's shameful to enjoy it, and shame each other out of it.  That will mean the only people who engage in it will be conservatives, meaning that it will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, turn into a bloodthirsty call for more scalps.

Or we could engage it.  We could take this form---this relief, this ecstasy---and own it.  We can say, "YAY WE WON, LET'S BRING 'EM HOME!" We have a choice: Do we want to feel righteous and pure, or do we want to have a part in shaping what happens next with all this energy?

I've noted before that I'm done with words like "problematic" that serve not to illuminate or deepen understanding, but to create unease and get people to shy away from dealing with the complexities.  I'm also done with a liberalism that prioritizes point-scoring over grappling.  And with liberalism that is always on the look out for people having too much fun or being messy or complex.  Not that I'm going to give up criticizing or saying harsh things, as I did with my post mocking the American tradition of the proposal.  In fact, I would say that these insights are probably going to make my world more complex, my choices harder and more oriented towards the gray.  But that's a task I'm willing to take on and hope others are willing to join.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:48 PM • (183) Comments

Totally there.

We can certainly give some space to these feelings without letting them own us - and instead go forward with a more positive channel.

However, the limits of twitter et al has me flummoxed on how to get that across.

Comment #1: Crissa  on  05/02  at  06:54 PM

You know how there are different waves of and schools of feminism? I really think I’m in the Pandagon school of feminism. I don’t mean to put you on a pedestal, but I’ve been reading you since Mouse Words and for years I have felt so much agreement with your analysis of issues because of exactly what you describe here. You don’t shy away from the muck. You engage it, with discernment, curiosity, and courage. I don’t agree with everything you say or think but that’s not the point. I may tend toward a less confrontational approach but I really get that there are many systems and sub-systems that must be undone for us to really move toward liberation and we need to build those muscles, practice how to knock down those walls, engage and use energy to move us all forward—energy toward transformation, not shut down the very energy that makes us move toward true solidarity and liberty. I love how anti-shaming you are. I have learned so much from you. As a 99% lurker here and as someone who quotes you to others, shares your writing w/ others regularly and admires you tremendously, for reasons perfectly laid out in this post, thank you. (If I was handy w/ HTML this comment would be peppered with bolds and italics)

Comment #2: tookish  on  05/02  at  06:56 PM

In my case, I didn’t like the excessive celebration not out of some puritan morality, but out of a sense of preservation.  I see no reason to further inflame passions of those who hate us.  I recall how angry I was to see the hawkers in Beijing selling the videos of the towers falling just two weeks after 9/11 (I was overseas when it happened) and just don’t want to provide any more excuses.

Comment #3: James  on  05/02  at  07:07 PM

Just to note—I don’t want to tell others how to mark the occasion.  I just know I won’t be celebrating bin Laden’s death—or anyone’s death, myself.

Comment #4: James  on  05/02  at  07:08 PM

Amanda, accusing people who are uneasy about all the bloodlust unleashed by Bin Laden’s death of WASPy self denial is unfair for a couple of reasons.

First, a lot of it is really, really virulently racist.  Just go search Open Book if you don’t believe me.  Secondly, you can’t look at Osama’s death in a vacuum, you have to consider it in the context of three illegal wars that have killed at the very least a million people.  Celebrating that is wrong, and it makes Americans look really bad to the rest of the world, especially the Middle East.

Comment #5: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  07:09 PM

James, to that I say we have enemies abroad, but our enemies at home worry me more.  Liberals deciding that no one can enjoy this will be exploited by the right to no end.  More important than our reactions on the street as Americans is our reactions in the voting booth.  If people associate liberalism with not even getting to be happy that Bin Laden is dead?  They’ll vote Republican.  Which will do more to inflame the conflict than any picture of jubilant college kids ever could.

Here’s the ugly reality: People are going to celebrate whether you like it or not.  You cannot control them.

You have two choices in the face of that reality: Accept it and harness it for good, or shame them without actually gaining anything but coming across like a sourpuss.  Which do you choose?

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  07:13 PM

Needs a name, this healthy attitude.

Comment #7: Yamara  on  05/02  at  07:15 PM

I have to also disagree that condemning the jubilation over Bin Laden’s death falls into the same category as feminist intra-policing.  For the same reasons “clever screen name” mentions, I really don’t see anything to celebrate. I also think celebrating someone’s death is inhumane, even if he was a mass murderer and religious zealot.  You cannot disentangle the celebrating from anti-Muslim, anti-brown people sentiments because most of those in my personal circle experiencing “elation” right now are doing it for that reason.

Comment #8: history_mom  on  05/02  at  07:17 PM

I believe it is valid to feel a sense of relief, however that may manifest.

We’ve been waiting for the other shoe to drop for more than 10 years, until we’d almost forgotten what we were waiting for. Why did we go to Afghanistan? To get Bin Laden. Why were we in Iraq? Because they lied and said Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (and therefore was tied into the ‘get Bin Laden’). For 8 years we listened to Bush say, ‘Dead or Alive!’, to ‘We drove him into a cave’, to ‘I really don’t know where he is’ mumble mumble…  http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/11/13_Laden.html

The one thing we *all* were with Bush on, was getting Bin Laden, even if Bush couldn’t sustain the effort.  Obama’s guys did in 2+ years what hadn’t been accomplished in the previous 8. Okay. Whew. *Finally!* Mission Accomplished.

So when are our troops coming home?

Comment #9: KMac  on  05/02  at  07:19 PM

I don’t think celebrating someone’s death is necessarily a bad thing (I probably would have celebrated if Mubarak got strung up a la Mussolini), but context is important.  Bin Laden hasn’t been relevant for years, but the wars we’ve engaged in to ostensibly fight terrorism have unleashed untold human misery.  You can’t separate Monday’s raid from that.

Comment #10: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  07:20 PM

Really? It’s come down to “accept liberals acting in an unliberal way to get votes”?  I’m actually surprised to see you on this side of the fence.  I came here today hoping to get away from the jingoistic crap driving most of this celebrating, but I guess not today. 

I guess I shouldn’t say we will agree to disagree. wink

Comment #11: history_mom  on  05/02  at  07:20 PM

And Amanda, I’m not going to shape my opinions based off of how I think the right is going to react to them.  If I think Americans are engaging in something unhealthy I’m going to point it out.

Comment #12: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  07:21 PM

Here’s the ugly reality: People are going to celebrate whether you like it or not.  You cannot control them.

You have two choices in the face of that reality: Accept it and harness it for good, or shame them without actually gaining anything but coming across like a sourpuss.  Which do you choose?

I agree that you can’t control how people are going to react to a situation like this, so you have to accept that and deal with it.  But there is some space between being uncomfortable with (or at least conflicted about) the reaction to killing bin Laden and actively shaming people for expressing understandable feelings.  I think that discomfort is a manifestation of precisely the grappling you’re talking about - on one hand, acknowledging that bin Laden led an organization responsible for monstrous crimes, but on the other hand trying to find some way forward from his demise that doesn’t continue to undermine left-liberal values that we’re trying to encourage.

And we don’t want to see shit like this.

 

Comment #13: Linnaeus  on  05/02  at  07:28 PM

I’m not trying to control people’s reactions.  I know they’ll celebrate.  I just remember how I felt seeing some Chinese celebrate 9/11.  I remember meeting someone injured by the IRA.  I remember three friends who were killed by terrorists.

I don’t find any death worth celebrating.

Comment #14: James  on  05/02  at  07:43 PM

I agree that feminists spend entirely too much time policing each other.  This often takes the place of real action and thoughtful analysis of the world.  It’s a really unproductive use of our energy. 

I think “problematic” language is worth talking about, but it’s silly to think it’s possible for anyone to engage with the real world without ever saying or touching anything that can somehow be linked to power, hierarchy, and oppression. 

Our language, our society, our culture—they all privilege some people and disadvantage others.  Nobody’s words are pure; nobody’s hands are clean.  We can scold each other endlessly, or we can work together to analyze and address systems of oppression in a meaningful way.

Comment #15: Cari  on  05/02  at  07:47 PM

I can’t equate an art form, punk rock, with celebrating the death of another human being. To engage and make the former into something constructive while preserving its essential nature works, because it can just as well be a feminist fuck you to the man as any other fuck you to the man. With celebrating the death of another human being, you’re still left with killing another human being; I don’t think killing for emancipatory goals is a good way to go.
That said, I won’t go around tut-tuting people for having a visceral and joyous reaction to the death of Bin Laden. I can certainly understand that it’s a relief for some people, and I find it exceedingly easy to ignore. But I definitely won’t line up and pretend that this personalization of international politics, the trivial black/white - good/evil morality play that the focus on individual vengeance leads to, is GOOD.

Comment #16: AndersH  on  05/02  at  07:47 PM

You have two choices in the face of that reality: Accept it and harness it for good, or shame them without actually gaining anything but coming across like a sourpuss.  Which do you choose?

This, this, this, this, a million times this. Goddamn are you good at succinctly driving the most important point home, which is why I love this blog.

Grousing about people’s reactions to Bin Laden’s death isn’t going to make him any less dead, nor is it going to make those who really despise us, be they Rush Limbaugh or Ayman al-Zawahiri, despise us any less.

Bin Laden was a deplorable fucker. A despicable, loathesome fucker who was directly responsible for killing not just 3,000 people here but thousands upon thousands more elsewhere, mostly people who looked a lot more like him than many of us.

That George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George H.W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, and even Bill Clinton and Barack Obama have been guilty of being fuckers in American foreign policy (though certainly to varying degrees) does not in any way, shape, or form exonorate Osama bin Laden’s fuckerosity.

If you don’t want to celebrate the death of Osama bin Laden because you don’t believe in celebrating any human being’s death, fine. But to act so condescendingly towards those who view the neutralization of one of the world’s biggest monsters in most of our lifetimes as a good thing is ridiculous. Nobody is cheering the death of a benevolent and innately kind and decent human being here. Those who cheer are cheering the death of someone who was undeniably a monster, a man who would cut the throats of your loved ones right in front of you without thinking twice about it, and then laugh at you while you cry. He was not a good dude, and the world is not worse off because he’s no longer in it.

Comment #17: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  07:52 PM

That was a hell of a post.

But I don’t have a problem with “problematizing” usually it just means you took this thing as some inevitable part of reality, what if its entirely contingent?

That being said I really get to thing about how can I make them hear instead of how can I make them like

Comment #18: pharmakos  on  05/02  at  07:58 PM

I think I more or less agree with Linnaeus @ 14. 

I get why people would feel celebratory about this whole thing, I really do.  I also could understand why a subset of Palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11.  But I’m uncomfortable with it nonetheless.  And at least in the case of Americans being happy and joyful and celebrating the fact of Bin Laden being dead, for a lot of the people I know personally (and am related to) it really *is* coming from a place of hatred and fear for the foreign, unknown, scary brown people anyone who is *not us*.  And by *us,* I mean white, conservative, Christian Americans. 

For myself, I’m mostly relieved, glad that this happened on Obama’s watch, and a little worried about how this is going to play out going forward.

Comment #19: ks  on  05/02  at  08:04 PM

I don’t find any death worth celebrating.

Fair enough, but do you believe that all deaths are equally tragic?

Was the death of Ted Bundy as tragic as the death of Emmett Till?

Was Timothy McVeigh’s death as tragic as the death of Baylee Almon, the one year old infant who died in the arms of an Oklahoma City firefighter after being pulled from the rubble of the federal building that was blown up by McVeigh?

Was Adolf Hitler’s death as tragic as that of any one of the six million Jews who died in his concentration camps?

Right or wrong, human beings as a whole will never see all deaths as equally tragic. However saddened I am supposed to be about the death of Osama bin Laden, there are roughly six billion other human beings whose deaths would have made me sadder.

Comment #20: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  08:05 PM

Osama Bin Laden was not the world’s biggest monster by a longshot.

Comment #21: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  08:05 PM

But otherwise, I should add that I did really enjoy this post and mostly agree with it.

Comment #22: ks  on  05/02  at  08:05 PM

I think part of the problem is that people are conflating feelings of relief and vindication with expressions of outright glee and bloodlust, and pretending those of us condemning the latter are also condemning the former.  Yes, I think glee about the death of another person and bloodlust are sadistic; it’s a way of dehumanizing the “enemy” and frankly I cannot tell much difference between liberal and conservative versions of “Whee! OBL is dead, let’s dance on his grave!” Nobody expects you to be sad (hell, I’m not). You can feel whatever the fuck you want, but it doesn’t make me a moral scold to say, “That’s fucked up” if I think the reaction is sadistic. 

 

Comment #23: history_mom  on  05/02  at  08:11 PM

I’m going to have to disagree.  What I’ve seen from the conservative side of the aisle isn’t relief that he’s gone, or jubilation that a murderer has had some form of justice: it’s flat-out bloodlust and jingoism, complete with youtube clips of air shows with “Proud to be an American” over the top of it with lots of flag waving.  I’m sure, if they could, they would be busy parading down the street with his head on a spike.  And no, I don’t consider it terribly liberal or progressive to cheer while someone dies.  I know he was an undeniably evil person from practically any moral system.  But, one of the things that made him evil was his celebration of death.  Progressivism has always been about progress- rising up from where we are to be better.

So I guess I’ll throw in the “sourpuss” side of things, as I do with rape jokes, abortion rights, and a whole host of other things.  I can’t control anybody’s actions, but I’m not going to just go along with “America, fuck ya!” either, out of some poor attempt to ingratiate myself and try and manipulate the outcome.  And no, I’m not having that reaction because I want to be the super-specialist liberal ever.  I haven’t even commented on facebook, nor do I think I’m going to write a blogpost on it (what’s to be said?).  I’m not going along with the celebration because of a) a desire not to be an asshole and b) I don’t feel like celebrating.

Comment #24: Antigone  on  05/02  at  08:12 PM

Why would recognizing that not all deaths are as “sad” as others legitimize celebrating someone’s death?  I will not spend a second mourning OBL.  His death is not “sad” to me, except in its futility.  I wasn’t sad when Ted Bundy was executed, but I wasn’t happy or celebratory either.

Comment #25: history_mom  on  05/02  at  08:14 PM

Though, reading this did make me smile: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/05/quote-of-day.html

Comment #26: Antigone  on  05/02  at  08:18 PM

Osama Bin Laden was not the world’s biggest monster by a longshot.

I agree that he was not the absolute biggest monster in the world. Thankfully, I didn’t say that he was. If you look at the whole of human history, there are quite a few names that would appear ahead of his. Right off the bat I can think of Hitler, Nero, Attila the Hun, just to name a few.

But among current human beings who were alive on May 1, 2011, there isn’t a huge group of people way ahead of him on the “biggest monster” list. Let’s see, there’s, uhh, Dick Cheney I suppose… and, ummm…

This is precisely why I referred to OBL as “one of the world’s biggest monsters in most of our lifetimes”, and why I didn’t refer to him as “the world’s biggest monster”.

If you can name 100 currently living human beings who are bigger monsters than Osama bin Laden, be my guest. I would probably have a hard time coming up with more than ten or fifteen names.

Comment #27: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  08:22 PM

  There’s a whole spectrum of feelings going on. I saw some widowers and widows and orphans of 9/11 talk about closure. That’s their right. It’s not my tragedy to define, nor dictate the rituals for. There’s always been something ugly about the way the country has taken 9/11 away from New Yorkers, because the Republicans have so thoroughly labeled New Yorkers as the enemy.

  A little Mississippi town managed to outfox the Westboro Baptist Church and accidentally block in their cars, delay them here and there, and keep them from intruding on the funeral of a young service member. If one of those family members, in the depths of their grief, socked Fred Phelps in the kisser, who’s going to criticize? Yeah, it’d be great if we were all superhuman. But we’re not.

I think a lot of people don’t really know how to feel about this. For young kids, this is the world. They’ve matured in the fear and paranoia brewed up by scaredy cats, the people who sell fear like it’s cake. I can’t imagine that atmosphere, but there’s a line there. Their lives are different from the lives of people who were adults pre-9/11.

  What are the stages of sudden relief? What happens when the Big Bad is gone and you don’t know if there’s another shoe?

Worst of all, I think it’s dishonest for the Emily Posts to pretend that this is not an emotional reaction having nothing to do, for many people, with jingoism.

And Linnaeus, there were reportedly impromptu celebrations in Dearborn, Michigan, where the largest proportion of US Muslims live. So sad. That’s the response that we need to worry about.

Comment #28: ginmar  on  05/02  at  08:25 PM

I think part of the problem is that people are conflating feelings of relief and vindication with expressions of outright glee and bloodlust, and pretending those of us condemning the latter are also condemning the former.

This this this this this.  And I haven’t seen anywhere near the number of “YAY! A VICTORY!” posts as I have “KICK THE SAND N*&^%$^S ASS” posts.  I don’t know where the policing of liberals is happening, I’m afraid of the jingoism and bloodlust of conservatives.

Comment #29: Siobhan  on  05/02  at  08:29 PM

What are you using as your criterion for who’s a bigger monster?  Obama’s responsible for more civilian deaths than Bin Laden (especially since he was a financier and propagandist and not really involved in planning)

Comment #30: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  08:33 PM

Why would recognizing that not all deaths are as “sad” as others legitimize celebrating someone’s death?

It wouldn’t. But it would place the degree of offensiveness of such celebrations in perspective.

I would be a whole lot more angered and disgusted seeing people publicly celebrating the deaths of the four women gunned down by the misogynist scumbag George Sodini in Pittsburgh in 2009 than I was seeing people celebrating OBL’s death yesterday.

I don’t value all human life equally. Specifically, I value the lives of rapists and murderers less than I value the lives of non-rapists and non-murderers. Maybe that’s wrong of me. So be it.

Comment #31: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  08:39 PM

You know, people in this thread keep bringing up the virulently racist reaction on the right to the news as a justification for disagreeing with this post, but:

the circular firing squad reaction of liberals who immediately set to shaming and scolding other liberals for celebrating that Bin Laden was killed

WTF does that have to do with what Amanda’s actually said?!

Conservative reaction to this NEVER came up in it! It is specifically about damn near every liberal blog being filled with people condemning any and all even remotely happy emotional reactions, and liberals jumping down other liberals throats if they don’t agree with that stance.

Look, for the first time in almost 10 years, after throwing away countless lives and billions of dollars, we have finally, finally achieved something that most people can agree constitutes a victory.

And yes, logically, that is pathetic in and of itself (and it doesn’t end any of our wars), to say the least. But, emotionally, it feels good. And people aren’t wrong to want to enjoy that feeling for a few damn minutes without being told they’re evil people and/or just as bad people that celebrated 9/11!

And, for what it’s worth, I do think it’s more that victory, than the death itself, that people are celebrating.

Comment #32: Ruby  on  05/02  at  08:41 PM

I think ginmar at #29 articulates best what I’ve been thinking over the past day or so; there’s just a whole stew of feelings and you can’t easily tease them apart, especially if you’ve been personally affected.  I haven’t, so it’s easy for me to have more emotional distance than it is for someone who was hurt or lost a loved one.

And Linnaeus, there were reportedly impromptu celebrations in Dearborn, Michigan, where the largest proportion of US Muslims live. So sad. That’s the response that we need to worry about.

Yeah, I grew up in SE Michigan and still have family and friends there and they told me about local reports that a group gathered in front of Dearborn’s city hall to cheer and wave flags and that some cars were honking their horns down the main drag where a lot of Arab-American owned businesses are.  I hope it doesn’t go beyond that.

Comment #33: Linnaeus  on  05/02  at  08:41 PM

Ruby, liberals can also be racist you know.

Comment #34: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  08:44 PM

Linnaeus,  many of America’s Muslims are likely fleeing people like Osama bin Laden.  One thing he used to do was kill moderate clerics——and yes, indeed, they exist, but they’re scared. I’ve met a few. Lovely men, all, including with regard to their views on women.

Comment #35: ginmar  on  05/02  at  08:50 PM

This this this this this.  And I haven’t seen anywhere near the number of “YAY! A VICTORY!” posts as I have “KICK THE SAND N*&^%$^S ASS” posts.  I don’t know where the policing of liberals is happening, I’m afraid of the jingoism and bloodlust of conservatives.

That the wingnuts’ expressions of bloodlust and glee are despicable racist scumbags goes without saying.

But when I see pictures of ethnically and racially diverse college kids - including at least one prominent picture of a young Middle-Eastern women tearing up outside the White House - celebrating this news last night, I don’t get overcome with disgust.

When I see pictures of firefighters in Times Square with their eyes welling as they are watching President Obama deliver the news to the world, I don’t feel disgusted at them.

To hell with the Andrew Breitbarts who are cracking disgusting jokes about bacon-lined caskets and wishing we could have dragged OBL’s carcass through the streets. It ain’t about them.

Comment #36: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  08:51 PM

Ginmar:  yep, absolutely.  The Muslim population in metro Detroit has grown in part due to people fleeing religious radicalism.  There’s an identifiable community for them to go to, even if it isn’t all Muslim (a good number of Arab-Americans in the Detroit area are Christian).

Not to drift too much…

Comment #37: Linnaeus  on  05/02  at  08:56 PM

I hope this doesn’t come across as a derail, but I think this issue of purging your movement of people who aren’t ideologically pure all the time is one that’s probably most evident in the vegan movement. I was vegan for two years, but there were times when I spent six hours in the airport due to flight delays and I’d just go “fuck it” and eat a non-vegan muffin or something, only to get tsk-tsked about it. I knew people who insisted I wasn’t “really vegan” because not all of my beauty products or hygiene products were vegan. Once I heard a fellow vegan call a vegan woman a “stupid bitch” because when she was drunk, she ate some peanut M&Ms;. The whole thing left me feeling exhausted, demoralized, and completely tired of constantly having to defend myself for wearing an old belt made of leather or whatever. I still do my best to eat good, healthy, fresh food and to accommodate my vegan and vegetarian friends when they come over for dinner, but I found myself burning out really quickly on food politics. It’s just not something I have the energy for, and I hate to say it, but what should have been a fun foray into the exciting world of vegan cooking ended up being a guilt-inducing nightmare.

The call for decorum regarding the celebrations isn’t necessarily coming from a place of self-righteous dipshittery. Like the animal rights movement, I’m sure it’s coming from a place of empathy and kindness, but we have to be careful not to come off like joyless assfarts. If we cling to decorum too stridently, we end up in a situation where you can’t say that Jerry Falwell was a bad man whose hateful ideologies should have died with him because that isn’t a nice thing to say. We have to temper our desire to do the right thing with the need to respect the way that other people process events like this. And right on, Amanda, that progressives are just gonna come off like sourpusses who don’t want you to be glad bin Laden is dead if they keep this up. I’m gonna steal that line of reasoning in my Facebook quarrels about this issue. Thanks.

 

Comment #38: Jenny Dreadful  on  05/02  at  08:56 PM

First, a lot of it is really, really virulently racist.

Obviously, I’m not endorsing racism.  I said very explicitly if we refuse to join in, only the racists will be left.  And that will mean we lose any input and they control the narrative.

Secondly, I really advise thinking generously about people you know are good and mean well and are not racist, but still elated that Bin Laden was caught.  There are reasons to hate that man that have nothing to do with racism.  He’s a mass murderer.  His last act as a human being was to use a woman that appears to have been sold to him as his wife as a human shield, getting her killed.

I am looking at it in context.  Did you even read the post?  I said this is the time to call for the end of the wars.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:00 PM

Really? It’s come down to “accept liberals acting in an unliberal way to get votes”? 

I dispute that being happy that a mass murderer finally got what’s coming to him is “unliberal”.  As I noted, I’m really tired of this kind of policing.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:02 PM

I’m also deeply disappointed to see people assume incorrectly that someone hating Bin Laden inevitably leads to racism.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe that.  Like Obama said, Bin Laden killed thousands of Muslims, and many of them are also celebrating.

We can a) assume the worst about everyone or b) use this as an opportunity to differentiate between Bin Laden and most Muslims.  But we can’t do b) if we refuse to let someone feel their hatred for Bin Laden. 

Like Obama said, we can say there is a difference between Bin Laden and Muslims at large.  But we lose our moral authority to do that if we’re minimizing how evil he was and how he really deserved to die.  Now, I’m all for arguing we should have been tried or whatever, but the problem is that by shaming and silencing genuine joy at this, we run the risk of minimizing how evil Bin Laden was.

Many, many people hate Bin Laden without hating Muslims.  My god, I can’t believe I have to say this.  Conflating the two is just unfair.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:07 PM

I think “problematic” language is worth talking about, but it’s silly to think it’s possible for anyone to engage with the real world without ever saying or touching anything that can somehow be linked to power, hierarchy, and oppression. 

Strawman.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:08 PM

with celebrating the death of another human being.

This is an example of what I’m talking about.  I’m seeing liberals use minimizing language like this.  I’m sorry, but most people aren’t going to deal well with you looking at Bin Laden and seeing “human being” before “mass murderer whose last act was to use a sex slave as a human shield”.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:09 PM

What I’ve seen from the conservative side of the aisle isn’t relief that he’s gone, or jubilation that a murderer has had some form of justice: it’s flat-out bloodlust and jingoism, complete with youtube clips of air shows with “Proud to be an American” over the top of it with lots of flag waving.

Yep.  And do you think telling liberals to strike a pose of somber sorrow will change this?  Honestly?

It won’t.  But what it will do is mean liberals are out of the conversation going forward.  What this will mean, as I said in the post, is that we abandon all chance of directing this energy.  We can either take our role in it, or we can allow the racists to have total control.  Your choice.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:15 PM

“I’m also deeply disappointed to see people assume incorrectly that someone hating Bin Laden inevitably leads to racism.”

Nobody’s been saying that, Amanda. You’re better than that.

“As I noted, I’m really tired of this kind of policing.”

Isn’t there a line, though? If I was a good liberal on every issue except I thought the races could only find harmony if returned to their natural continents, would you keep quiet on that? Don’t you call out liberal men for dudely privilege? Where do you draw the line?

Comment #45: Djur  on  05/02  at  09:16 PM

I haven’t been reading a lot of liberal blogs today, so maybe I’m missing something, but I find the sports championship shouting of “USA USA” really disturbing.

I hope that by successfully planning and executing bin Laden, the Democrats will finally have gotten rid of the “weak on defense” monkey that’s been on their backs since Carter’s failed hostage rescue attempt.  I’d hope that this death will bring our soldiers home sooner.  I don’t have a lot of faith that it will happen, but it would be nice.

It’s just that we’ve killed so many more of our own Americans in a worthless war in Iraq than died in 9/11, and we’ve killed orders of magnitudes more “furriners”, that I don’t understand the glee in this death.  It’s not really changed anything, because we won’t just declare victory and leave.  We won’t be allowed to keep our shoes on.

I really would like to push the meme of the previous thread, namely that LIBERALS WERE RIGHT.  The wars were not necessary and did not accomplish their stated objectives.  Treating terror as a criminal act just works better.  I wish it would have been possible to try bin Laden, but we’ve already lost too much for that to be possible anymore.

Yes, closure is good.  Yes, I can understand being excited or happy.  But the bloodlust is not something that should be allowed to go on without criticism.  How is it any different from the Arab kids dancing in the streets with pictures of the Sears Tower saying “this one is next!”? 

People feel what they feel.  What concerns me is how they will act on those feelings.  There is ugliness and jingoism going on out there as well as relief and hope for a better tomorrow.

Comment #46: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/02  at  09:20 PM

Shameless promotion of another picture featuring a Muslim happily participating in last night’s jubilation in the streets of NYC…

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/gallery/2011/05/bin-laden-killed-the-nation-reacts.php?img=14

Also, here is what I believe is likely to become one of the most famous photographs ever taken in the history of the White House, just featured on The Rachel Maddow Show.

Comment #47: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  09:24 PM

And I said I’m not going to pretend that I feel happy that we shot someone, in any sort of attempt to direct any energy.  I also think it is a false dichotomy to go say you’re either an ineffective killjoy or have to have ecstasy for a person’s death.  Punk rock had nothing to it that was inherently misogynistic- there’s nothing about fast beats or harsh instrumentation that says “women ain’t shit”.  But “energy” that comes out of joy of death?  I think that is pretty anti-liberal.  I mean, it’s like “jokes” about Ann Coulter being a “tranny”.  Yeah, it’s funny, and it skewers someone that the left universally decries, but it does it at the cost of being cruel to people who are transgendered.  If the only people left with the “energy” of bloodlust are the conservatives, I say let them have it.  I’m pretty sure there’ll be enough anti-war energy without it. 

I’m not saying that we have to put on the sack-cloths and tear at our hair because a Bin Laden is dead, and I’m a little bit annoyed as having my position described as “a position of somber sorrow”.  I’m saying that if a I won’t give a liberal a pass for something I wouldn’t give a conservative a pass on.  If you experience joy at this moment that hopefully this will be the end of the war of Afghanistan, that’s awesome.  If you think that this is a great moment of closure for people who were victims of 9-11, that’s great.  But if you say shit that basically goes down to “let’s go dance on his grave” I’m not going to to join you in that waltz.  I’m not the police, I don’t have an audience, and I can’t do jackshit besides frowning disappointingly, but I’m not going to act like these reactions don’t have consequences.  Hell, even on your Double X post you acknowledged that this can go from “relief and joy” to “jingoism and bloodlust” pretty fucking fast.

Comment #48: Antigone  on  05/02  at  09:36 PM

I’m seeing liberals use minimizing language like this.  I’m sorry, but most people aren’t going to deal well with you looking at Bin Laden and seeing “human being” before “mass murderer whose last act was to use a sex slave as a human shield”.

Pot meet kettle.

Way to dehumanize him to justify your elation.  He was a mass murderer and a human. Yes, I believe it is a liberal value not to see those two things in conflict and to say that celebrating the death of an enemy or an “evil” person is a way of dehumanizing that leads to some very bad things. 

Again, criticizing the expression of glee or elation at Bin Laden’s death is not policing how you feel.  You feel whatever you want.  It is not even silencing you, any more than calling out liberal men for their sexism is silencing them.  We are at an impasse because you think it’s dandy as a liberal to feel elation at another person’s death and I (and others) do not.  This is not the same, IMO, as the nit-picky flame-wars I’ve seen in the feminist blogosphere.

Comment #49: history_mom  on  05/02  at  09:36 PM

Others will think differently, obviously, but the celebrations fill me with a sense of what I can only describe as futility - well that, and unease. This isn’t unease borne of some moralistic desire to police other people’s reactions to this particular event; it’s unease borne of my recognition of how so many - people on the right and people on the left - were willing to sell everything to achieve the goal of killing Osama Bin Laden.

But his death doesn’t mean we can recapture what was lost in the ten-year hunt. We’re now a society in which it’s politically okay to openly condone torture and the use of foreign prison camps where people can be sent forever without trial and on the flimsiest pretext.

I can’t help but think we sold something vital and irreplaceable for what will amount to a purely symbolic victory, as various of Bin Laden’s lieutenants jockey to fill the vacuum left by his death.

All those dead just so the US government could kill a guy and drop his carcass in the sea. The celebration of that fact is out of proportion to the thing achieved.

Comment #50: Nil  on  05/02  at  09:37 PM

I’m not saying that it’s wrong to feel more sorrowful and somber.  But if I validate your reaction, I ask you do the same of mine.  Consider where people are coming from instead of trying to villianize good people for having a human reaction that can be harnessed for good.

If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.  I don’t understand that, but okay. But there comes a point where liberal pieties serve to obscure and not illuminate.  If it’s hard to look at Bin Laden as he actually was, I understand that. But it doesn’t change the facts.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:45 PM

I’m just saying word choice matters. We didn’t shoot a generic “someone”.  We didn’t shoot a generic “human being”.  Specifics are enlightening, generalities not so much.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:48 PM

Anyway, I’ve restated my points over and over.  People who don’t want to hear them won’t.  So be it.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  09:53 PM

Okay, I put:

I know he was an undeniably evil person from practically any moral system.  But, one of the things that made him evil was his celebration of death.  Progressivism has always been about progress- rising up from where we are to be better.

And you got

If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.

I don’t have warm fuzzy feelings towards a dead murderer.  I have no sympathy for what he did, and what he was continuing to trying to accomplish.  Not celebrating a person’s death =/= thinking that it’s so sad that he’s dead.  Jesus, that’s massively misrepresenting what I’ve already put.

Comment #54: Antigone  on  05/02  at  09:53 PM

If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.  I don’t understand that, but okay. But there comes a point where liberal pieties serve to obscure and not illuminate.  If it’s hard to look at Bin Laden as he actually was, I understand that.

That’s an unfair and gross mischaracterization of what motivates those who see celebration as, at best, a pointless exercise. I agree with Antigone and history_mom, and I don’t see any reason to soften my opinion on this matter for fear that someone will take my words as an attempt to silence them or to affect a pose of empty piety.

Comment #55: Nil  on  05/02  at  09:55 PM

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Can you saints stop calling it bloodlust? I know you want to polish that halo but gloating is not appropriate in a saint.

Comment #56: ginmar  on  05/02  at  09:55 PM

male and female feminists have been part of punk rock since its inception… the slits, poison girls, crass, pop group… punk rock’s subversion applied to feminism was evident from the very start.

Comment #57: JonE  on  05/02  at  09:56 PM

“I’m not saying that it’s wrong to feel more sorrowful and somber ... If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.”

And if that’s what anyone was saying, that would be a nice thing to hear.

I don’t feel sorrowful that UBL is dead. Good riddance. I do think drunken partying in the streets and singing “Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead” and “We Are The Champions” is unseemly.

It’s you who seem to think that the other side is demanding a period of quiet regret. You’re not too far here from the conservatives I’ve read saying that liberals are going to be wearing black armbands, and that saddens me.

Comment #58: Djur  on  05/02  at  09:57 PM

Anyway, I’ve restated my points over and over.  People who don’t want to hear them won’t.  So be it.

Oh, well that must be it, then! It would be impossible for people to disagree with you even despite actually having listened to and processed your points.

Comment #59: Nil  on  05/02  at  09:58 PM

“Can you saints stop calling it bloodlust?”

Considering how many people I’ve read literally suggesting that UBL’s corpse be ritually and publicly desecrated, or how many people are seeking photos of the corpse, I don’t really understand what else “bloodlust” is meant to apply to.

Comment #60: Djur  on  05/02  at  09:59 PM

Nil, I think those are interesting and valid points, and would like to point out you made them without shaming or silencing.  You make interesting points that I’m considering.  My thought to you is: Yes, we are in real danger of shit just getting stupid, fast.  What are we going to do to change that?  Realistically, I mean.  I don’t think shaming/silencing people for their joy is going to do that.  Grappling, however, is an excellent start.  Which you’re doing.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:01 PM

I don’t like the word “unseemly”.  It conflates decorum with morality.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:02 PM

In fact, when something is “unseemly”, my interest in it rises exponentially.

Comment #63: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:03 PM

Feel free to substitute “indecorous” and “shameful” for “unseemly”, then.

Comment #64: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:04 PM

Amanda I wasn’t saying celebrating Bin Laden’s death automatically lead to racism, I said a lot of the celebration comes from racism and is expressed in really racist ways.  I think that’s true, and I think it’s something that we should think and talk about if we want to be a healthy culture.

And yes, I know you called for an end to the war in your post, and I didn’t call you pro-war.  I’m guessing you opposed the war before Osama Bin Laden was killed.  I said the context of these events matter, and since the biggest area of expansion in the War on Terrorism is coming from Afghanistan and Pakistan you can’t really separate this raid from wars that have killed millions of people.  That’s why I have a negative reaction to video of a bunch of college kids chanting “USA!  USA!  USA!” outside the White House, and I’m guessing a lot of people in the Middle East will too.  That matters to me a lot more than what some shithead Republican on Capitol Hill thinks.

Comment #65: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  10:05 PM

It would be impossible for people to disagree with you even despite actually having listened to and processed your points.

I guess that’s what I get for being generous and thinking about what you said.  Strawman arguments. 

I’m addressing the fact that I had to restate myself at least five times in these comments to address people’s objections that are dealt with in the post.  If you’re going to disagree, disagree with me directly.  Don’t just restate claims I deal with in the post as if I never dealt with them or considered them.

This is how I feel this conversation is going:

Scold: It’s unseemly to celebrate his death.  Liberals shouldn’t do it.

Me: Well, I think unseemly feelings should be grappled with instead of silenced.  Also, if liberals stop doing it, all that will be left are conservatives, and that means they own the narrative by default.

Scold: It’s unseemly to celebrate his death.  Liberals shouldn’t do it.

Me: Did you hear me? You don’t have to agree, but c’mon at least argue with the point I made instead of just saying the same thing over and over.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:07 PM

clever, I said I agree with you that some of it comes from racism. 

And if we silence the non-racists who are celebrating, all of it will. 

Your choice.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:08 PM

Djur, that calls for facts not in evidence.  You got a cite? No.  Then you’re just bitching at the mourner at the soldier’s burial who hauled off and gave Fred Phelps what he deserved.

Comment #68: ginmar  on  05/02  at  10:08 PM

I think that the US could do with a *proper* neo-fascist movement, like we have in Europe, instead of all this Tea Party dross. Then maybe all the liberal apologists would be able to see exactly why all this chest-thumping nationalist triumphalism is as disturbing as it appears to the rest of the world…

Comment #69: Finnegan  on  05/02  at  10:09 PM

Djur, I think part of the reason some people are seeking photos is they want proof that it actually happened, and/or that it was actually him.

Comment #70: mtthw  on  05/02  at  10:11 PM

The issue is that you’re accusing the “scolds” of wanting us to all get together and have a good cry over that poor man’s death. Don’t you see how offensive that is?

OK, I will address those two points:

Yes, those feelings should be grappled with instead of silenced. I’ve read several articles by liberals straddling the fence and leaning to one side or another, and I am glad they are talking about it. That is not the same as going out into the streets and singing anthems.

Liberals (should) refrain from all kinds of things, permitting conservatives to monopolize them. Calling Michelle Obama fat. Forwarding around racist jokes. Protesting about how they’re Taxed Enough Already and the president is going to pull the plug on grandma. A less obvious example is deficit fearmongering—the current Democratic consensus seems to be that we need to just be more pragmatically anxious about the debt, because we’ve already let the Republicans draw the lines of battle.

Comment #71: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:13 PM

I’m sorry, but most people aren’t going to deal well with you looking at Bin Laden and seeing “human being” before “mass murderer whose last act was to use a sex slave as a human shield”.

Way to dehumanize him to justify your elation.

Really?!?

Pointing out that he will most be remembered for the atrocities he committed is “dehumanizing him”?

What’s next, criticizing people who describe Hitler as an anti-Semitic genocidal maniac for dehumanizing him? If I describe the three white men who dragged James Byrd to death as “racist pieces of shit” first and foremost, am I guilty of dehumanizing them?

I don’t give a fuck how conservatives are reacting to the death of Osama bin Laden, and my reaction to his death has nothing to do with their reactions to his death.

I happen to breathe O2 and drink H2O quite frequently, which I’ve also heard are things that wingnuts have been known to engage in regularly as well. I must be completely in allegiance with them, since just like conservatives, I am unambiguously a supporter of breathing air and drinking water.

This is beyond silly. I’m not going to go through life reacting to every major global event by analyzing how wingnuts react to it and then automatically reacting in the completely opposite manner. Perhaps no one else is actually doing that, but given some of the responses I’m reading here, it kinda feels that way. Like I said before, the Andrew Breitbarts of the world don’t get to decide for me how I will react to the news of OBL’s death.

Comment #72: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  10:13 PM

“Djur, that calls for facts not in evidence.  You got a cite? No.”

You’re asking me to cite a personal observation? Fine: one of my best friends. Also someone I know from work. And a family member. I’d rather not give out names and phone numbers.

There are also blog comments. I’m not going to dig through them again, but at the very least I recall someone at Wonkette suggesting that the body be stuffed and mounted at the WTC memorial to be pissed on and pelted with filth.

Comment #73: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:20 PM

“clever, I said I agree with you that some of it comes from racism.
And if we silence the non-racists who are celebrating, all of it will.
Your choice.”

Then they’ll stop providing cover to racists.  I don’t really see the downside here.

I think the imperialism matters a whole lot more than the racism though.

Comment #74: clever screen name  on  05/02  at  10:21 PM

You have two choices in the face of that reality: Accept it and harness it for good, or shame them without actually gaining anything but coming across like a sourpuss.  Which do you choose?

One of Amanda’s consistent arguments is that we should basically accept being human and respect our humanity instead of being puritan scolds, and this is another great manifestation of that line of reasoning at work.

Nobody’s less likely than I am to join in with a crowd shouting “USA! USA! USA!”, but I’m not going to interfere with other people’s instinct for such a thing on the occasion of the recent defeat of one of our enemies.

People are going to have sex, people are going to enjoy good food, people are going to enjoy owning nice things, people are going to wear nice clothes, and people are going to rejoice over the vanquishing of a foe. It’s all well and good if you find it more spiritually calming to live a more simple life, abhor implications of materialism, and approach these moments during a war with appropriate solemnity and reflection. None of that is a bad thing—they’re good things! But you shouldn’t get all self-righteous about what is mostly a harmless expression of celebration—save your self-righteousness and indignation for actual and serious moral offenses.

Comment #75: Tyro  on  05/02  at  10:21 PM

“the Andrew Breitbarts of the world don’t get to decide for me how I will react to the news of OBL’s death.”

You do know that Amanda’s thesis is that if we don’t join in the celebration over UBL’s death, the conservatives will monopolize it, right? That’s how I read it. And that seems to me like letting conservatives determine how liberals respond.

Comment #76: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:22 PM

Tyro: The problem is that I’ve seen a lot more people beating up on spoilsport black-armband somber-and-sorrowful liberals than actual condemnations by said liberals. So far I’ve read criticism of the celebration from David Sirota and Chris Hedges, the latter of which was characteristically circumspect.

I wouldn’t have said anything here if Amanda hadn’t essentially accused me and people like me of crying over UBL’s grave and demanding everyone else does, too.

Comment #77: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:25 PM

Just to be clear, I’m not celebrating his death, I’m not sorry he’s dead but I just don’t celebrate deaths (unless they’re chosen consciously and even then “celebrate” isn’t the right word). It’s the same way I feel about the death penalty.

I don’t think this post was about whether I celebrate or don’t celebrate his death. What I hear were the implications about how I feel about how others feel. What I got was that we liberals sometimes do things (in many different subcultures; someone up thread mentioned getting tsked for eating a non-vegan muffin; I live among many people who send their kids to Waldorf schools and the tsking there can be quite severe etc.) from very fundamentally human places and get tsked or shamed or called out for it before there’s any inquiry into what was living in us, what we were expressing, what need we were demonstrating or existential quandary we were grappling with. It’s unfortunate b/c gets in the way of authentic bridge building. 

I am very uneasy with nationalistic jingoism. And that very obviously underpins some of the celebrating. But what about feelings that are more nuanced? There’s a range between jingoistic blood-lust and dour tsking. That’s why I thought the comparison of Ellen Willis with those liberals who are feeling relief was interesting.  Her interest in the in-your-face attitude and use of energy in the punk scene, even when misogynistic lyrics are used, met a place in her that was useful. She was building muscles of non-compliance and engaging with a medium that helped her do that. So, perhaps there are many who feel relief (or something far more complex and nuanced) at the death of OBL. Liberals—not jingoistic nationalist republican bots. What are those feelings? Can they be teased out, channeled and morphed into greater, more powerful expressions of emotion? Expressions of emotion that build bridges? How do we do that? Perhaps there’s something useful there that we might miss if we are sure that it’s all wrong. That’s the question I hear in this post. If I’m way off base about that, then I’ll go back to my lurking status and just watch and listen for a bit more.

Comment #78: tookish  on  05/02  at  10:26 PM

Then they’ll stop providing cover to racists.

Let me for the sake of argument accept the fact that these are expressions of racism. Honestly, I’d prefer they keep their racism under wraps and understand that racist behaviors and expressions towards their neighbors and fellow Americans are unacceptable. But if “deep in their heart of hearts” their celebrations at the death of bin Laden are “really” about racism, I’m not going to get indignant. If what they’re actually doing is a somewhat normal and harmless bit of wartime celebration, then they can do that, even if it’s “really” about their underlying racism that they’re not expressing in other ways.

You do know that Amanda’s thesis is that if we don’t join in the celebration over UBL’s death, the conservatives will monopolize it, right

I think Amanda’s point was that if we “deny ourselves” and others the opportunity to express feelings of celebration at the death of Osama bin Laden, then we’re really just playing into conservative tropes—we allow the conservatives to have a monopoly on being the “human party” while we become the “ascetic party”—all just to satisfy our need to feel oh-so-much-more-virtuous than those flag-waving jingos out in the streets.

Comment #79: Tyro  on  05/02  at  10:27 PM

I’ve seen a lot of both.

Comment #80: Punditus Maximus  on  05/02  at  10:29 PM

Yes, those feelings should be grappled with instead of silenced. I’ve read several articles by liberals straddling the fence and leaning to one side or another, and I am glad they are talking about it. That is not the same as going out into the streets and singing anthems.

The point Amanda is desperately trying to make is that never, at any point in time, was this post discussing “going out into the streets and singing anthems”!

It was always exclusively about the “fence-straddling liberals”.

Yet random commenters keep dragging the singing-in-the-streets in here, as though it has something to do with the specific conversation we’re trying to have here. And it doesn’t!

Comment #81: Ruby  on  05/02  at  10:29 PM

Ruby:

“Well, I saw a similar kind of thing going on with the reaction of many on the left who were made uncomfortable when others reacted not with a Christian-tinged sobriety, but with partying in the streets or crass jokes on Twitter…”

Comment #82: Djur  on  05/02  at  10:31 PM

How does one engage in a celebration of relief that this particular necessary task has finally been finished without joining in the celebration of the bloodlust that’s attached itself to the same event?

Because I don’t see how to do it.

In fact, before this post and its comments I didn’t see what there was to the celebration that wasn’t the hateful crap.

I now admit that there are other reasons to celebrate, but a celebration of relief is not what I see. It’s not the “end of finals” mood, it’s the “night before the big game” mood.

A sample of the celebratory posts on my Facebook stream: “God Bless America” // “USA!!!!” // That photo of Obama smiling captioned “Sorry it took me so long to get you a copy of my birth certificate…” // “There is a god the evil one is dead Osama Bin Laden may he burn in hell” // that Mark Twain quote about obituaries

Comment #83: Daniel Martin  on  05/02  at  10:33 PM

Considering how many people I’ve read literally suggesting that UBL’s corpse be ritually and publicly desecrated, or how many people are seeking photos of the corpse, I don’t really understand what else “bloodlust” is meant to apply to.

And exactly how many of those people you describe would consider themselves liberals?

Who here has said that they wish to see OBL’s corpse ritually desecrated? Hell, I specifically said in the other other thread that I was incredibly disgusted by hearing wingnuts making such vile suggestions.

Which liberals are demanding to see grotesque photos of his corpse? Which liberals are saying they wish we had dragged his corpse through the streets?

There’s a pretty wide chasm between:

1) “I’m happy that this mass murderer has finally been eliminated.”

and

2) “Woo-hoo, let’s drag that towelhead motherfucker through the streets and fill his carcass up with porkchops and then drop him off in the middle of Mecca HAHAHAHAHA!!!”

I’ve heard a number of people on the left express sentiments that could roughly be characterized as being in line with the first statement above, but I have yet to see a single person who describes themselves as liberal, leftist, or progressive expressing anything like the vile attitude demonstrated in the second statement.

You wanna criticize the racist pigs who are wishing for us to do vulgar and disrespectful things with OBL’s body simply to incite anti-Muslim animosity, I’m right there with you. Fuck Andrew Breitbart, fuck Sean Hannity, fuck Glenn Beck, fuck Rush Limbaugh, fuck Frank Gaffney, fuck Pamela Geller, fuck all of them. But their racist attitudes don’t suddenly invoke a sense of sympathy in me towards the fuckhead coward who used his purchased bride as a shield yesterday. Fuck Osama bin Laden, too.

Comment #84: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  10:35 PM

I guess that’s what I get for being generous and thinking about what you said.  Strawman arguments.

Well gee, thanks for “generously” actually thinking about what I said. I suppose now my points are no longer valid simply because I pointed out how self-serving your one comment was.

Comment #85: Nil  on  05/02  at  10:40 PM

Djur, again—-that relies on your observations and your sample. Funnily enough, just as I am reluctant to name all Muslims terrorists, I am somehow equally reluctant to label all Americans racist xenophobic scum.

Comment #86: ginmar  on  05/02  at  10:42 PM

Oh, and strawman arguments? Seriously? Pot to kettle:

If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.  I don’t understand that, but okay. But there comes a point where liberal pieties serve to obscure and not illuminate.  If it’s hard to look at Bin Laden as he actually was, I understand that.

 

Comment #87: Nil  on  05/02  at  10:44 PM

By the way, I should clarify what I said up in comment #34:

Yeah, I grew up in SE Michigan and still have family and friends there and they told me about local reports that a group gathered in front of Dearborn’s city hall to cheer and wave flags and that some cars were honking their horns down the main drag where a lot of Arab-American owned businesses are.  I hope it doesn’t go beyond that.

What I meant when I said “I hope it doesn’t go beyond that” is that I hope that the celebrations don’t go beyond what they were and degenerate into racist tropes, considering that there will be celebrants in Dearborn who aren’t Arab-American and/or Muslim.

And to reiterate, I accept that there’s going to be range of emotional expression on this.  About all I’ve said openly is something to the effect of, “yeah, we’re better off without bin Laden, but I don’t feel especially jubilant about it either.”

Comment #88: Linnaeus  on  05/02  at  10:47 PM

I will say that it’s funny that no one has a single quarrel with my points about feminism.  Think we solved the mystery of why Pandagon doesn’t have cannibalistic clusterfucks in comments!

Nil, you’re so busy being defensive you didn’t even listen. Which is too bad, because I did think some of your points about your own reaction were interesting and relevant.  My question is why people who are feeling somber can’t just leave it at that and instead have to scold?  Actually, they don’t.  I know many people who had a somber reaction without feeling the need to guilt trip others who reacted with joy.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  10:52 PM

We did kill some random people. That sex slave, for an immediate example. A courier - which, I’m not entirely sure about but it seems like we killed a courier who provided us with information on bin Laden’s location? And it’s not clear (and may never be fully clear), but some gov. officials said that the goal was to kill, not capture.

Amanda’s range-of-complex-emotional reactions piece is, I think, more accurate than this joy or piety concept. I would be thrilled if this military action/assassination/whatevertheF resulted in us ending the Ridiculous Fight Against an Idea. I’m also really saddened by the deaths of the ‘presumed’ wife, and concerned that this carries more than a tinge of bread & circus, and remember uneasily the footage of Palestinians celebrating 9/11, and also think that the cost was way too high, and also worry that we’ve just stopped pretending that there is such a thing as a legal code of warfare and criminality, and also think that bin Laden got off way too easy, and also… ad nauseum. I’m glad there are some voices that aren’t cheering. Many responses to this were not as nuanced as Amanda’s.

Comment #90: the duck-billed placelot  on  05/02  at  11:02 PM

Amanda wrote in the OP that Osama bin Laden “got killed” and “was killed.”  Then, in comments, he “is dead” (@7); he “was caught” (@40); he “finally got what’s coming to him” (@41).  No subjects in those sentences.  In this post Osama acted: in addition to being a mass murderer, he used his latest wife as a human shield, causing her death.

Here’s how I see it:  President Obama ordered this person killed.  A Navy SEAL shot him in the eye, following orders, rather than bring him to justice.  I don’t begrudge people their jubilation or any other emotion they feel: but my emotion is disgust at the savagery of my country’s government. 

Even a vile person can be a murder victim, and what happened on Sunday was murder, reminiscent of a mafia hit.

Comment #91: Unree  on  05/02  at  11:06 PM

Why is it “scolding” when it’s something that you think is acceptable, but “calling out” when it’s something that you think is unacceptable? I don’t want to rush to cry “hypocrisy”- that’s too often a cheap and lazy stand-in for a real argument- so does anyone have any answers to that?

Comment #92: Finnegan  on  05/02  at  11:09 PM

Nil, you’re so busy being defensive you didn’t even listen. Which is too bad, because I did think some of your points about your own reaction were interesting and relevant.  My question is why people who are feeling somber can’t just leave it at that and instead have to scold?

(Aside: I do appreciate your leaving space for disagreement, even of the sort I offer.)

I did hear you. I think I get what you’re saying - to wit, that both reactions are valid and that people who cast themselves in the role of morality police are taking up a burden that is both unnecessary and not their business to carry.

There are a few good reasons to oppose the jubilation over Bin Laden’s death, however, and not all of them are related to “scolding.”

1) Some people may be tempted to complacency because the amount of attention being paid this story, and the amount of weight this action is being given, has left them with a sense that the great enemy is defeated. Justice has been served. The wars can end now. But that’s not even remotely the case. Bin Laden was just one man, and there are probably ten more with the same beliefs ready to replace him.

2) The debate about proper conduct in warfare has gone on so long and has gotten so loud, and the conclusions are so damned ugly, that I fear our society has grown callous. Bin Laden is a safe target for these attitudes because pretty much everyone agrees the world is (even if only marginally) a better place without him. But if history has taught me anything, at least personally, it’s that it doesn’t take much for unrestrained passion of this sort to mutate into the kind of xenopobic feeding frenzy that gave us Gitmo. Once people realize that Bin Laden was merely one head of a hydra, where will their anger turn? How will it manifest? The same passion that drove these celebrations over the death of Bin Laden - how will they be channeled in the face of ongoing terrorist threats?

Where will they go to vent now that the enemy ha no face?

Comment #93: Nil  on  05/02  at  11:09 PM

I would like to point out that the partying college kids everyone is so quick to condemn were between the ages of NINE AND THIRTEEN YEARS OLD when 9/11 happened. It left an indelible imprint on us. It shaped the political and social context in which we’ve grown up. Capturing or killing Osama bin Laden has been one of our country’s top foreign policy priorities for HALF OF OUR LIVES. Specifically, the half in which we have been even remotely aware of politics. It is nearly impossible not to feel elated that Osama bin Laden is no longer at large; it’s like letting out a nervous breath we’ve been holding for the last decade.

Terrorism and anti-Americanism don’t scare me because I’ve been living with an awareness of these phenomena before I was old enough and wordly enough to know the difference between Republicans and Democrats, or what Islam was, or even what those two tall buildings in the NYC skyline were called. As I’ve gotten older I’ve learned a lot about why people don’t like America, and the backdrop of colonial interference in the Middle East and elsewhere. I’ve come to understand and even sympathize with those overseas who hold our historical injustices against us. I greatly respect the Muslims I go to school with, some of whom are my good friends, and I loathe the racist conflation of Muslims and “terrorists.” I think the way we treat 9/11 as an exceptional tragedy greater than all the world’s tragedies, simply because it happened on American soil, is ridiculous in light of all the tragedies we are responsible for as a nation.

But god damn it, I couldn’t help but feel thrilled that the search for Osama bin Laden was over. I never thought we would actually find him. I am so happy this occurred under the watch of Obama (a Democrat, the first Black President in the history of the US, the first President I got to vote for, the first President I can remember for whom I have respect) instead of under the watch of George W. Bush, the man who started the immoral wars that my peers are dying in. I am enjoying thumbing my nose at all the right-wing assholes who use national security as a pretext for taking away our civil liberties, without ever achieving anything. I enjoyed the semi-ironic Facebook posts where my lefty friends quoted Team America: World Police and exclaimed “America, FUCK YEAH!” (even though we are typically an anti-Patriotic bunch). I particularly enjoyed the sarcastic declarations that terrorism is over. And if I hadn’t been studying for a final last night, I absolutely would have gotten drunk, as us 21-year-olds are wont to do if given even the slightest provocation.

I agree that celebrating the death of another human being is a little crass…but I could honestly give a fuck if our celebration is disrespectful to bin Laden as a person, because he didn’t seem like he was too worried about being disrespectful towards others. The celebration for many of us is less about his actual, personal death and more about the symbolic closure of a decade of American mistakes, failures, and defeat. Because at least we got one fucking thing we were promised when Bush thrust two wars upon us. Can we please be happy for half a second before we have to act like grown ups about this?

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! TERRORISM IS DEFEATED. NOW END THE WARS! I love that approach, Amanda.

Comment #94: reverie  on  05/02  at  11:13 PM

@95: “I agree that celebrating the death of another human being is a little crass…but I could honestly give a fuck if our celebration is disrespectful to bin Laden as a person, because he didn’t seem like he was too worried about being disrespectful towards others.”

I don’t think that the complaint has been that the celebrations are “disrespectful to Bin Laden”- is that even possible?- but that they’re a bloodthirsty display of jingoistic triumphalism, which is not only anti-liberal but at times veers disturbingly close to the proto-fascist. Which is, y’know, a bit different.

Comment #95: Finnegan  on  05/02  at  11:20 PM

It’s not the “end of finals” mood,

I guess my college friends threw better post-finals parties than yours.

It might make us feel very virtuous if we can say how we are so special that we wouldn’t participate in such vulgar celebrations on the night the president announced the death of Osama bin Laden. But don’t go around scolding everyone else. I’m happy for such virtuous people who mark the solemnity of the occasion in the same way I can respect vegans who want to minimize cruelty to animals: but accept that you’re engaging in a personal discipline for your own benefit, and don’t try criticize those who deal with things differently.

Comment #96: Tyro  on  05/02  at  11:22 PM

Tangential to the original post, but I just saw a news bit indicating that we also got some computer hard drives from the Bin Laden compound, which potentially could be the motherlode of all Al Qaeda intel. I’m curious as hell to find out what OBL had on his iPad.

Comment #97: DTGslu2K  on  05/02  at  11:23 PM

A couple answers:

roscoe:  Yes, some deaths are more tragic than others.  Osama’s death is among the least tragic.  I’m still not going to celebrate.

Amanda:  My answers have been solely to explain why I feel the way I do—I do not with to change or police anyone else.  I expressed this because I felt it ought to be said.  I respect others’ rights.  I feel, though, that even expressing that view subjects me to implicit opprobrium.  Should I self-censor my views?  Am I to be silenced because my feelings do not reinforce the vocal majority?

I’ll also note that this comment “If it makes you feel better to have warm, sympathetic thoughts towards Bin Laden, okay.” is as bad a straw man as any other.  I seriously doubt anyone here who is not celebrating is doing so because they’re warm or sympathetic towards bin Laden.

Comment #98: James  on  05/02  at  11:25 PM

@90, @94: I guess my view of the scolding is that it’s the opposite face of the purely-celebratory coin. Yay! We murdered the fucker!/Oh, how can you cheer the death of a human. The oil floating on the top layer of a very messy stew. Generally, though, I’m happy to see any tempering on military-driven patriotism; there’s way too much lip service paid to our fearless military who can do no wrong despite horrifying evidence to the contrary. This is a complex thing, and the general American consensus will pull away from complexity - probably towards the Yay Murder side of things, if recent history is to be any indicator. If shame can complicate that, I can’t say I’m against it.

Comment #99: the duck-billed placelot  on  05/02  at  11:27 PM

I’m not scolding. I feel unease and fear for my safety living with large crowds of human beings that have shown themselves capable of bloodlust and groupthink. I had the same vague sense of unease after watching a documentary on a remake of the Milgram experiment where 80% of people would kill someone with a lethal electric shock if a TV host asked them to.

Excuse me if I’m not able to assume the best out of my fellow man or woman. The vast majority of people are one charismatic authority figure away from murdering you.

Comment #100: BlackBloc  on  05/02  at  11:32 PM

Maybe if people were honest about what war is, and requires, and what soldiers are, we could have this discussion honestly. But people want to think that soldiers are a breed apart, that they come from the clouds, rather than the communities that they grow up in. The truth is, soldiers are ordinary people with training, and everybody who thinks they’re too good for it is in denial. Thus the torturers of Abu Ghraib came not from some environment in the clouds but from a small town in anywhere, America.  Their flaws are our flaws. You cannot make torturers out of ordinary guys with sleep deprivation and fifteen mile marches. It has to be possible long before they sign up. The worst thing is that it’s not a presence in the soul; it’s an absence. It’s more than soldiers that suffer from it.

  When you ask a bunch of kids to go to war, you damned well better be honest about it, and know what you’re asking, and ask it honestly and openly. George Bush lied to a bunch of people who couldn’t conceive of a lie on such a scale, at such a cost, at such a level of dishonesty, on the graves of so many. 

Comment #101: ginmar  on  05/02  at  11:33 PM

This is a complex thing, and the general American consensus will pull away from complexity

I think the truth is we have to accept human nature’s instinct to pull away from complexity and harness it for positive (or at least harmless) ends rather than condemn people for not having sufficiently nuanced reactions. We have to meet people where they are, and odds are they haven’t “arrived” at the point where they are sufficiently virtuous to understand the tragedy of bin Laden’s wasted life.

I think Amanda finds this sort of complaints about post-Osama-celebrations to be in the same category as people self-righteously declaring that they “don’t even OWN a TV” when others are watching the finale of their favorite series. If that sounds like a shallow comparison, I would argue that a lot of the complaints about the celebrations last night are kind of shallow.

Comment #102: Tyro  on  05/02  at  11:40 PM

Tyro: Fair enough. What’s the evidence that I am criticizing others? My Facebook reaction to this was “I needed to take some time off FB anyway; y’all go have fun and I’ll be back later, ok?”

In fact, what’s the evidence that this “liberal scolds over ObL celebration” phenomenon is a real thing, as more than an occasional obscure voice here or there?

Yes, we have commentors in this post who are freaked out by the conservative reaction/celebration, but that’s not what the OP is all about, is it? The OP is specifically railing against the liberal circular firing squad thing, and the mood here is characterizing anyone as a “scold” who isn’t feeling the celebration.

Because I’m not. Feeling it, that is.

Oh sure, I can call up feelings this event brings, but they’re feelings spawned by nearly decade-old memories of that bright crisp Tuesday morning when shit went insane. Those aren’t celebratory feelings.

I don’t know how to engage feelings I don’t share.

Comment #103: Daniel Martin  on  05/02  at  11:40 PM

@ ginmar : Can’t you make torturers out of ordinary guys with sleep deprivation and fifteen mile marches and orders to pull out a guys fingernails? Or do you mean that we’re all capable, we’ll all kill Piggy?

And what do you mean by ‘you damned well better be honest about it’? Because I can’t think of a war in which a leader has sold by saying, you will give up your empathy and civilization and humanity and see and do the worst things you can think of and then top them, and we’ll send your family a flag.

Comment #104: the duck-billed placelot  on  05/02  at  11:42 PM

In fairness, I think it’s fair to argue that there is a sort of asymmetry at work when it comes to reactions. It’s the TV pundits and over-exposed newspaper columnists who are the ones saying, “Right, on we got that motherfucker!” and it’s our annoyingly earnest facebook friends and self-righteous obscure blog commenters who are the ones giving telling us how uncomfortable they are with the victory rallies around the country. The former do serious damage to America in lots of ways and have a much larger audience than the latter, who at worst just act kind of annoying and harsh our buzz.

Comment #105: Tyro  on  05/02  at  11:46 PM

Every death diminishes me, as I am part of humanity, as Donne might have written in an era more attuned to male-centric language. But Bin Laden’s death doesn’t diminish me all that much. It wasn’t justice, but it wasn’t a tragedy. And it was a victory, if only a symbolic one. A nationalist victory, but I don’t think nationalism is inherently awful. Are those of us who aren’t Truthers (I hope that’s all of us) going to say OBL wasn’t an enemy of the United States?

And just because racists and anti-Semites (in the broader sense) are celebrating

When I see piety crop up so rapidly, my number one urge is to stick a clown nose on it

This is certainly why I read Pandagon. You’re like a feminist Groucho Marx (that’s meant in a good way). This is one of a handful of feminist and feminist-sympathetic blogs where I feel I can count on getting the benefit of Hanlon’s Razor—and yet which calls out people who don’t deserve that.

Cari, 16:

I think “problematic” language is worth talking about, but it’s silly to think it’s possible for anyone to engage with the real world without ever saying or touching anything that can somehow be linked to power, hierarchy, and oppression.

If the only negative thing you (generic) can say about it is “it’s problematic” then clearly even you don’t think it’s worth talking about. Otherwise, you would, instead of saying “problematic” and glaring—“problematic” means “there’s nothing specific I can say about this without looking irrational, so I’m going to express vague, passive-agressive disapproval and shame everyone into not questioning it.”

Amanda, 40:

Obviously, I’m not endorsing racism.  I said very explicitly if we refuse to join in, only the racists will be left.  And that will mean we lose any input and they control the narrative.

I’m reminded of something I read once somewhere saying more black and gay people should join the Republican Party, and more supporters of sensible gun control should join the NRA. I quite agree with that strategy.

clever screen name, 66:

Amanda I wasn’t saying celebrating Bin Laden’s death automatically lead to racism, I said a lot of the celebration comes from racism and is expressed in really racist ways.

In that case your argument doesn’t lead anywhere in particular.

I think you want to divide humanity into two groups, racists and non-racists, and find some clear unambiguous indicator of which side of the bright line each and every person falls on. And people are messier than that. And you can’t ignore that, and you can’t model or magic or mourn it away. You can either take it into account, or you can wag your finger.

Djur, 78:

I wouldn’t have said anything here if Amanda hadn’t essentially accused me and people like me of crying over UBL’s grave and demanding everyone else does, too.

I can’t help thinking you’d be less defensive about that if we had more mutual Facebook friends.

ginmar, 102:

When you ask a bunch of kids to go to war, you damned well better be honest about it, and know what you’re asking, and ask it honestly and openly. George Bush lied to a bunch of people who couldn’t conceive of a lie on such a scale, at such a cost, at such a level of dishonesty, on the graves of so many.

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Comment #106: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/02  at  11:50 PM

@ Tyro: Well, sure, the tragedy of bin Laden’s wasted life weighs heavily on the minds of ALL non-tv-owning vegans who knit their own fingerless gloves. But there’s also, maybe, space for some tv-owners to say, hey, that 24 finale sure had some fucked up torture messages in it, don’t you think? Part of this thread (not just Amanda by any means) feels like people who do have a complex view of things getting irritated that other people keep reminding them of all the complex feelings. When people who are all-vegan-tv-shamers (WITH AWESOME STEAMPUNK GLOVES) might not see the Yay That Finale Of Lost Was Perfect In Every Way emotion to be a harmless view.* And really probably weren’t talking to the complex-view folks to begin with.

*For a less on the nose analogy.

Comment #107: the duck-billed placelot  on  05/02  at  11:55 PM

“Excuse me if I’m not able to assume the best out of my fellow man or woman. The vast majority of people are one charismatic authority figure away from murdering you.”

I’m not sure about murder (at least not right away - they might warm up to it later), but I’m pretty confident that there are many people who could be convinced quite easily to go along with just about any infringement on other people’s rights.  Arbitrary arrests of people they know, with no valid charges, indefinite imprisonment without a right to trial, and ultimately even execution, if the state/authority figures demanded it — all those things and more.

Even many Nazis had qualms about directly murdering people.  But if they were separated just a little from the cold, hard, bald-faced, truth of it, they could function quite well in a government and society that was actively and purposely rounding up and murdering people on a vast scale.  The same was true for an alarming number of ordinary Germans. 

Given enough propaganda-fueled fear, many people here would come unglued (many already have) and would do whatever they were told to do, whatever the consequences.

Let’s face it, we’re all living in a giant Milgram Experiment, as the last decade has amply demonstrated…

Comment #108: MikeEss  on  05/03  at  12:03 AM

Nils @ 51:

Others will think differently, obviously, but the celebrations fill me with a sense of what I can only describe as futility - well that, and unease. This isn’t unease borne of some moralistic desire to police other people’s reactions to this particular event; it’s unease borne of my recognition of how so many - people on the right and people on the left - were willing to sell everything to achieve the goal of killing Osama Bin Laden.

But his death doesn’t mean we can recapture what was lost in the ten-year hunt. We’re now a society in which it’s politically okay to openly condone torture and the use of foreign prison camps where people can be sent forever without trial and on the flimsiest pretext.

I can’t help but think we sold something vital and irreplaceable for what will amount to a purely symbolic victory, as various of Bin Laden’s lieutenants jockey to fill the vacuum left by his death.

All those dead just so the US government could kill a guy and drop his carcass in the sea. The celebration of that fact is out of proportion to the thing achieved.

I agree completely.  I don’t really care how individuals express their feelings over it, which makes this post maybe off topic, but anyway.  After things die down, I hope we as a nation will sincerely ask ourselves, “Was it worth it?”  The US has been imperialist for as long as I’ve been alive, but comparing the past decade with the two before it, we’ve gone down roads I never would have believed we would.

Comment #109: bomberE  on  05/03  at  12:07 AM

Well it seems we’ve got a Conservative majority up north. So even if I feel uneasy about the root cause of the celebratory impulse, I say you guys at least enjoy it a bit while you can.

Right now I can’t even get joy out of the fact that the social-democrats had their best performance since I’ve been old enough to follow politics and have now become official opposition, with the Bloc Québécois relegated to third party status (less than 5 representatives and you lose federal funding for your party) and the Liberals reduced to a token presence.

For my American progressive friends, the feeling right now is like if back in 2000, the Greens ended up winning all the Democrat seats in the House and the Senate and Nader somehow magically won the popular vote, yet Bush still won the electoral vote and the GOP had a majority in both the House and senate. It’s like, we don’t have to live with the lesser evil anymore because the left-wing party is actually viable now, but the bad guys still won.

Comment #110: BlackBloc  on  05/03  at  12:08 AM

@96

With that sentence specifically I was referring to the accusations that Amanda and other celebrators are “dehumanizing” bin Laden and that celebrating the death of any person is “unseemly” (among other adjectives connotating a lack of respect or decorum towards the loss of human life). But actually the whole point of my post was to describe reasons for the celebratory mood *other* than simple “bloodthirsty display[s] of jingoistic triumphalism.” I think it’s really unfair to ascribe that one universal motive to people who are actually explaining why they reacted with outward displays of happiness at this event, regardless of the political and social frameworks in which we experienced our reactions.

Comment #111: reverie  on  05/03  at  12:16 AM

I’m generally not a person that one would describe as “patriotic” (in the mainstream definition of the word at least); I don’t think I’ve ever chanted “USA, USA” or something in my life, unless it was in a joking sense. 
However, as I was working in DC last night, I decided to take a stroll over to the Whitehouse on my (extended) break.  Like a sizable minority of people down there, I was more of a curious onlooker than an active participant in the celebration, but, searching my feelings on the walk back, I did feel a certain satisfaction that our country and this president killed Osama bin Laden.  [That is not to say that there wasn’t a certain bittersweetness to last evening: the only people I came across last night that were not in a celebratory mood were the 50 - 75 homeless people hunkered down for the night over grates and in nooks of buildings.  Almost certainly (statistically at least) some of those men and women were veterans of America’s so-called “War(s) on Terror”, and our nation has failed them.]

But yes, “satisfaction” comes to mind as the best word to describe my feelings.  I’m not going to apologize for thinking the world is a better place without this individual.  He was the very definition of an illiberal, religious zealot, completely antithetical to everything I believe makes the world a decent place.  In the name of his twisted beliefs, he would have slit the throats of every single last one of us if given the chance, and while I’m not going to throw a kegger in celebrating his death, I’m not going to besmirch anyone else if they choose to enjoy the moment (particularly kids in the teens and early twenties, who have lived their entire lives with this person’s shadow lurking over them).  Fuck it, I’m glad he’s dead.

Comment #112: timotimo  on  05/03  at  12:51 AM

roscoe3680 : No, objecting to overly jingoistic celebrations on Bin Laden’s death won’t bring Bin Laden back. Nor will it make our enemies like us more. The idea is more to point out that over-the-top manicheistic crap like this :

If you don’t want to celebrate the death of Osama bin Laden because you don’t believe in celebrating any human being’s death, fine. But to act so condescendingly towards those who view the neutralization of one of the world’s biggest monsters in most of our lifetimes as a good thing is ridiculous. Nobody is cheering the death of a benevolent and innately kind and decent human being here. Those who cheer are cheering the death of someone who was undeniably a monster, a man who would cut the throats of your loved ones right in front of you without thinking twice about it, and then laugh at you while you cry.

is over-the-top manicheistic crap that helps enable American exceptionalism and the imperialism that goes with it.

Comment #113: Caravelle  on  05/03  at  12:57 AM

Everybody, please ignore what comes next. I haven’t read any of the other comments, I’m not at all familiar with the music, in fact I have only the vaguest understanding of most of what Amanda was talking about, but even so I thought it was pretty much wonderful. That is a fine piece of writing.

Comment #114: bad Jim  on  05/03  at  01:04 AM

duck-billed placelot: Boy, you don’t know one fucking thing about the military do you? Did that come straight from catcher in the rye or something? The military stresses the concept of the unlawful order. I guess you wouldn’t know that, would you? Apparently, military members just follow orders and commit massacres because they just love it.  Lack of nuance makes you extra vulnerable—and extra simplistic. HOw hard is it to understand, the culture gets the soldiers that it creates? Or is it hat threatening that the soldiers who do horrible shit are the same nice normal boys that live next door? 

I learned that lots of arrogant privileged people aren’t aware of what people can be forced into out of desperation. Some people always think they’ll never be that desperate.  People who think they’re better than the peasants tend not to adapt well.  There’s some that think they’re better and more moral than the rest, therefore their theories deserve more seriousness, more seriousness.

Comment #115: ginmar  on  05/03  at  01:06 AM

“They see some of the uglier emotions in people, like bitchiness or morbidity, and they want to silence instead of think about how these emotions can be channeled in the right direction.”

Or wondering how those people got in those states anyway.

Again, criticizing the expression of glee or elation at Bin Laden’s death is not policing how you feel.  You feel whatever you want. 
Comment #50: history_mom on 05/02 at 09:36 PM

I wish I could control how I feel.  How do you do it? 

Seriously, while I know it’s wrong to celebrate someone’s death, I felt like going out in the street yelling “woohoo” because that fucker is no longer around, and some very brave people as well as some politicians and strategists and information specialists made that happen.

Comment #116: oldfeminist  on  05/03  at  01:10 AM

As I’ve been thinking about this post, re-reading my newsfeed on Facebook, mulling over this idea that us “scolds” are silencing liberals who just want to express their elation without having to defend it, I noticed something…

[usual caveat that anecdata is not necessarily generalizable]

Last night I stewed for a couple of hours after hearing the news, watching FB friends post their reactions and feeling increasingly sick and discomforted.  I watched as the posts moved from “OMG” to “Well, that’s one less baddie in the world” to “I hope they burned his corpse”. As I have many friends from New York and in military families I felt like I wasn’t allowed to post my misgivings.  I felt silenced because I neither felt closure, pride, vindication, or relief.  Simply dread.

But the last thing I did last night was post saying that I couldn’t help but find jubilance the wrong response in light of what has passed in the last decade.  I went to bed expecting to get flamed.  I woke up and it was like a dam had burst; by my simple act of expressing my misgivings, several of my friends felt emboldened to share their own.  And on their walls, their friends thanked them for saying what they couldn’t articulate or wouldn’t express for fear of backlash. 

So I find the scolding of the scolds ironic. Last night, I felt like I wasn’t allowed to say that I found the celebratory atmosphere, the jingoistic chanting, disturbing.  And now today, I have liberals telling me that by saying that those things disturb me I am silencing THEM.  Nope, sorry, I’m not gonna play that game.  There is a place for all of these opinions, but nobody lives in a zone free from criticism, at least not if they truly want to encourage open, bold speech (which is why I still come here after more than six years).

Comment #117: history_mom  on  05/03  at  01:23 AM

Tangential to the original post, but I just saw a news bit indicating that we also got some computer hard drives from the Bin Laden compound, which potentially could be the motherlode of all Al Qaeda intel. I’m curious as hell to find out what OBL had on his iPad.
Comment #98: roscoe3680 on 05/02 at 11:23 PM

Al-Qaeda means “the base” and many consider it to mean “the database.”  I am VERY interested in what was on his computers.

Not that I expect it will be divulged.

Comment #118: oldfeminist  on  05/03  at  01:29 AM

I wish I could control how I feel.  How do you do it?

I check myself.  I was raised in a racist society, had an intensely racist grandmother, and lived in a 75%+ white neighborhood; I’ve spent my entire adulthood unlearning racist thoughts, reactions, etc and will spend the rest of my life doing it. 

It’s no different for me when it comes to how I view this issue. I used to be adamantly pro-death penalty and as a young adolescent anti-choice.  My position is radically opposite now because I check myself and think about the person I want to be and how that meshes with my personal ethics.  A decade ago, I probably would have been “hell yea!” about OBL’s death. Now, it doesn’t even occur to me to be giddy about it.

This idea that emotions are completely outside the realm of control or some unchanging primordial “self” is self-serving rationalization.  I have a lot of emotions that are inappropriate, but I’m not trying to defend them and somehow make them totally fine.

Comment #119: history_mom  on  05/03  at  01:32 AM

history_mom, I do that every single day, so thanks for explaining it to me.

http://oldfeminist.com/2009/08/02/i-am-a-racist.aspx

This idea that emotions are completely outside the realm of control or some unchanging primordial “self” is self-serving rationalization.  I have a lot of emotions that are inappropriate, but I’m not trying to defend them and somehow make them totally fine.
Comment #120: history_mom on 05/03 at 01:32 AM

Are you thinking that any negative reaction to OBL is racist?  Because he actually physically resembles fairly closely a friend of mine.  Hating him because of his “otherness” would be hating my friend.  That’s not the case.

When emotions serve a racist or other fucked-up agenda, yes.  You can work on the underlying agenda and then the emotions, eventually, lose much of their power.  They may never go away, but you can intercept them, at least to some degree, and as you said observe them.

But when they signal a relief, however temporary or illusory, from stress?  No.  There was some guy out there who hated us, for no good reason.  Hated me.  Hated you.  Wanted us dead as some kind of lesson to others that we should be different.

Glad that voice is silenced, however it happened?  Not wrong.

I’m not using my emotions to excuse racism.  I would be just as happy were he White or some other race.

I’m no happier about his death than that of other murderers.  No less happy, though.  I am anti-death-penalty.  But I understand why some people aren’t.

Comment #120: oldfeminist  on  05/03  at  02:04 AM

@history_mom: Yeah, I’ve had people griping at me about being insufficiently patriotic too. I’m apparently being too negative at best and hate Obama at worst. I wasn’t expecting jingoism from the left, but we’re damned sure seeing it.

I wouldn’t think the cost in lives or fortune worth it for a revenge fantasy that’s largely symbolic even if no one I cared about had died in the process of making it come true. Apparently the people that lost loved ones to this decade long clusterfuck aren’t allowed to not particularly give a shit about Bin Laden without people on the left questioning our patriotism. I’m getting kind of sick of hearing liberals cry about my lack of a flag pin on my lapel, so to speak.

My empathy doesn’t extend far enough to actually feel bad for BL in any way…I’m not sad that he’s gone, I’m just depressed at what it took to make it happen. Which it turns out is an absolutely unacceptable point of view on the left and the right. (And for the centrists, for that matter)

You know what’s a liberal value? Wondering how many sick people we could have healed or hungry people we could have fed for a trillion bucks. Well, it used to be one, anyway.

Comment #121: JThompson  on  05/03  at  02:07 AM

I commented on this thread because it was specifically about the issue, and that you, Amanda, basically said that we should take the celebration of Bin Laden’s death and own it to forward our goals through it. I haven’t scolded anyone for expressing elation or any other emotion at his death, but in response to a post where you say that this kind of behaviour is like using an art form? That I feel compelled to engage with, because it is utterly wrong.
To say that we should use celebration over the death of our enemies isn’t like using punk rock to forward feminist or liberal goals, because to dehumanize and label someone for killing is fundamentally illiberal. It’s more similar to suggesting that we use the disgust and horror some people feel at abortion for our ends: why, if they feel like that, then we can use that energy to promote universal childcare!

I don’t care what people feel in response to this event; they’re entitled to whatever it is they feel, but I will react if someone says that this is something good that we should embrace, because then it becomes a discussion about what it means to be liberal and feminist, and that is not a topic I will be silenced on.

And yes, I do largely agree with you about feminism.

Comment #122: AndersH  on  05/03  at  02:41 AM

Hm, my comment seems not to have gone through. Sorry if this is a double.

I’d like to retract my previous post if I may, I was in a bad mood this morning and it’s more inflammatory than I want.

Instead I’ll just say that when describing how bad a person is I prefer the description to be fact-based. I don’t know much about Bin Laden, if all of roscoe’s description is verifiably true I apologize altogether. I don’t care about Bin Laden’s reputation or virtue one way or another, indeed from all I know I agree he’s a very bad person. But demonizing enemies happens all the time with classic bad consequences, especially when powerful countries do it, and the worst a person is the easier it should be to come up with real examples of how bad they are. And keeping things fact-based makes the subsequent discussion about what to do about them or how to act more transparent.

Comment #123: Caravelle  on  05/03  at  03:00 AM

My first thought upon hearing Osama was killed:  “finally.”  It only took us 10 years to track down and whack a 6-foot-plus diabetic whose appearance and general location was well-known.  Yay, us!

The celebrations were entirely predictable.  Yes, of course this was used by some as an opportunity to express racism and bloodlust; that’s not at all surprising.  Note it where it occurs and move on. 

To those who “don’t want to celebrate the death of a human being,” that’s a fine sentiment but this one needed killing (if taking him alive was impractical, which apparently it was).  He was a rabid dog and he ordered American citizens killed.  That’s going to be enough for most Americans to celebrate his death, regardless of how we got there.

Yes, the point to push now is “Mission Accomplished, now let’s get out of Afghanistan.”  Unfortunately I seriously doubt that message will gain much traction.  Our presence in Afghanistan is not about Osama bin Laden, and hasn’t been since Tora Bora.  It’s about fear of the Taliban and nation-building, which our leaders still seem to believe is possible despite its never having succeeded anywhere without an extended (and often permanent) military presence.

Comment #124: liberalrob  on  05/03  at  03:13 AM

@history_mom :

But the last thing I did last night was post saying that I couldn’t help but find jubilance the wrong response in light of what has passed in the last decade.  I went to bed expecting to get flamed.  I woke up and it was like a dam had burst; by my simple act of expressing my misgivings, several of my friends felt emboldened to share their own.  And on their walls, their friends thanked them for saying what they couldn’t articulate or wouldn’t express for fear of backlash.

I haven’t been following the whole thing that much, but one comment that struck me was from Alan Sepinwall :
http://www.hitfix.com/blogs/whats-alan-watching/posts/osama-bin-laden-news-unites-tv-news-social-media-for-a-night
Basically the thing he found the most awesome about the news of Osama Bin Laden’s death is that everyone all over the media reacted the exact same way. America is united at last !
For some reason that struck me as downright creepy, and it’s making me see all the nostalgia for the Unity of 9/12 and bipartisanship in a new light. It’s not like I hate people agreeing, or don’t understand why they all would in this case, or always love it when some would-be iconoclast says something shocking on TV, but the way he praised it and held it up as how things should always be… I dunno.

Comment #125: Caravelle  on  05/03  at  03:26 AM

I remember how I felt on 9/11 - sick to my stomach about what was going to happen next. Not from Al Qaeda, but from the brain trust in the Oval Office.

I wouldn’t describe my feelings at learning OBL was dead as jubilant, but I think he deserved to die. If that makes me bloodthirsty, so be it. I’m not going to dance in the streets over it, but I’m certainly not going to direct my ire towards the government for killing him. OBL earned that, IMO.

I also couldn’t help but feel furious at the thought of how many of our soldiers have died in Iraq in a distraction away from pursuing the criminals behind 9/11. It’s truly shameful.

Comment #126: maurinsky  on  05/03  at  09:07 AM

—————————————————————
...Those who cheer are cheering the death of someone who was undeniably a monster, a man who would cut the throats of your loved ones right in front of you without thinking twice about it, and then laugh at you while you cry.
—————————————————————

is over-the-top manicheistic crap that helps enable American exceptionalism and the imperialism that goes with it.

Saying that OBL was a monster who would slit your loved one’s throats right in front of you without hesitation if given the chance is over the top in what way? We’re talking about a guy who didn’t seem particularly concerned about how many women, children, people of color, LGBT, progressive or other “othered” classes of American citizens would be killed when he ordered his followers to fly commercial jets into our buildings.

Aside from the fact that he was apparently a human being with human DNA, what was redeemable about Osama bin Laden? I’m not talking about theoretical good things he may have said or done at some point in the course of his 54 years on this planet, I’m asking for specifics. What good things can you name that Osama bin Laden has ever said or done that makes describing him as a monster an unfair, “over the top” statement?

You’re being ridiculous.

Comment #127: DTGslu2K  on  05/03  at  09:49 AM

—————————————————————
...Those who cheer are cheering the death of someone who was undeniably a monster, a man who would cut the throats of your loved ones right in front of you without thinking twice about it, and then laugh at you while you cry.
—————————————————————

is over-the-top manicheistic crap that helps enable American exceptionalism and the imperialism that goes with it.

Saying that OBL was a monster who would slit your loved one’s throats right in front of you without hesitation if given the chance is over the top in what way? We’re talking about a guy who didn’t seem particularly concerned about how many women, people of color, LGBT, progressive or other traditionally maligned classes of American citizens would be killed when he ordered his followers to fly commercial jets into our buildings.

Aside from the fact that he was apparently a human being with human DNA, what was redeemable about Osama bin Laden? I’m not talking about theoretical good things he may have said or done at some point in the course of his 54 years on this planet, I’m asking for specifics. What good things can you name that Osama bin Laden has ever said or done that makes describing him as a monster an unfair, “over the top” statement?

You’re being ridiculous.

Comment #128: DTGslu2K  on  05/03  at  09:53 AM

This thread is classic. Talk about a circular firing squad. I’m glad the fucker’s dead, and I’m gonna go home and crack a beer and hoist it to the guys who killed him. I’ll save my liberal energy for pointing out to celebratory conservatives that we woulda got him a lot sooner if we hadn’t started those two stupid wars.

Comment #129: felagund  on  05/03  at  10:32 AM

Saying that OBL was a monster who would slit your loved one’s throats right in front of you without hesitation if given the chance is over the top in what way?

In the way that you don’t know it’s true (if you do, do tell) and it describes a kind of personality I don’t know that Bin Laden had.

After all, you mentioned Cheney as a candidate for someone as evil as Bin Laden. Do you think Cheney would slit your loved one’s throat in front of you and laugh when you cried ? I mean, literally ? I don’t. That doesn’t strike me as his type. Conversely I can perfectly well imagine someone who would slit your loved one’s throat etc, not being the type to organise a massive act of terrorism like Bin Laden did. And some people might do both, but would balk at some other evil act. All are bad people, but they’re different bad people.

More specifically, the reason I characterised this as over-the-top instead of just inaccurate is that by attributing this kind of evil action to Bin Laden that we haven’t heard of him doing, you’re implicitly attributing any kind of evil action to him. Functionally it’s the same kind of claim as saying he eats babies. After all he didn’t seem particularly bothered about how many babies died in all the terrorist attacks he orchestrated…

Comment #130: Caravelle  on  05/03  at  10:36 AM

normal and harmless bit of wartime celebration

Normal and harmless wartime celebration?  No such thing. Normal and harmless and wartime celebration are opposites, unless it is celebrating the end of war.  We aren’t there.  We aren’t even close. 
So bin Laden was a monster? yeah, I’ll agree.  Shooting a rabid dog is not an occation for joy, neither should that of a monsterous human.  Relief, satisfaction, etc, but nationalistic chanting and posturing?  No thank you.
This is pointless symbolism except for those who were directty affected.  Far more of them are in other parts of the world than in the US (though NYC/Jersey City/Newark area has more than it’s share for those in the USA, as does Dearborn); and most of the people dancing in the streets, so to speak, are not among them.

Comment #131: helen w. h.  on  05/03  at  11:05 AM

Caravelle, maybe he wouldn’t have done it himself, but I don’t doubt he’d be willing to get someone else to do it.  Remember Daniel Pearl?  That was Al-Qaeda.  Shit, Adolf Hitler never directly murdered anyone (to my knowledge), but does that make hime any better than say, Ted Bundy*, who directly murdered far fewer people than were killed on Hitler’s orders?

*I would hope this is obvious, but I just want to make it absolutely clear that I am NOT defending Bundy.

Comment #132: mtthw  on  05/03  at  11:22 AM

mtthw :

Caravelle, maybe he wouldn’t have done it himself, but I don’t doubt he’d be willing to get someone else to do it.


Indeed. And it doesn’t change what I said.

Shit, Adolf Hitler never directly murdered anyone (to my knowledge), but does that make hime any better than say, Ted Bundy

No place did I say it would. “different bad people” doesn’t necessarily mean “different levels of badness”. We’re not talking a one-dimensional scale here.

Comment #133: Caravelle  on  05/03  at  12:06 PM

Oldfeminist: I think you slightly misread my comment.  I used racism because it’s something most of us here relate to and then suggested that my emotional reaction to the death of an enemy was something I learned to control in a similar way.  Not saying that celebrating OBL’s death is inherently racist, even if it does underlay a lot of people’s reactions. Sorry for the confusion.

Comment #134: history_mom  on  05/03  at  12:18 PM

One thing that seems to come up frequently in these things is that one person will restate what their opponent has said in a way which at best misses the point, and is often completely wrong. This gets paired with accusations that the other side is unfairly misrepresenting your argument, when the alleged misrepresentation hasn’t actually happened.

I assume that sometimes this is accidental, but it seems to happen often enough that some people use mischaracterizing their opponents as a deliberate tactic.

Whether accidental or intentional, the outcome is always the same. Communication becomes impossible because trust is destroyed.

Unsurprisingly, there are many examples of misrepresentation and of incorrect accusations of misrepresentation on this thread.

Comment #135: Matthew Morse  on  05/03  at  12:54 PM

Just as an aside, I read an interview with Johnny Rotten where he says that Bodies was not an anti-abortion song, that it was about someone bringing the remains of their aborted baby to a party in a see-thru plastic purse so I hear it that way, not anti-abortion but disgust for that particular act.  It makes the song make more sense also I believe.

Comment #136: ewellone  on  05/03  at  01:10 PM

Being human, ur doin’ it rong.

Sadly, people are reinforcing Amanda’s point rather than actually engaging the argument.

I also have many friends that joined the celebration.  I’m unsure why history_mom can believe that people can feel one way and not express it.  Do we return to the Victorian ideals?  Should we strive to logic and repressing all emotion?  Or do is the suggestion that we acknowledge that someone who purposly and violently destroyed sociotal norms and the 2753 lives be removed from society?

My reaction *was* “Great, let’s bring our troops home.”  No one argued against it.  It’s cost us $788 Billion and 4453 lives to invade Iraq and $400 Billion and 1549 lives to invade Afghanistan.  Is one man, one life, worth that?

But that’s not the conversation or the topic that Amanda is talking about here.

This conversation is trying to understand why we turn on our own rather than confronting the hatred and racism of the people who cost this counrty and society so much.

When you pick your battles, why pick them with people who agree with you 99% of the time rather than those who are 100% wrong?  Is the frustration at talking past people more rewarding than the confrontation of exposing fallacies?

I agree with Amanda because I see this as Judean People’s Front vs. Judean Popular People’s Front vs. People’s Front of Judea.

Comment #137: cynickal  on  05/03  at  01:25 PM

@cynickal: The biggest scolds aren’t the people opposed to celebrating. They’re the ones that celebrate and demand everyone else celebrate with them. Any reason for not celebrating isn’t good enough and magically becomes giving a shit about Bin Laden. (Or hating Obama, depending on who you’re talking to.)

Why is it ok to express joy but not disgust at that joy? Why is one emotion more easily repressed than the other? I don’t actually feel either, but I can understand both. I’ve tried to be happy about it, but the most I can manage is sadness over all the innocent lives wasted to get to this point: Our soldiers that died, their innocents that died, and at least a trillion bucks that we know of that we could have used to feed the hungry and heal the sick.

We hear that this brings closure for the last decade, but there isn’t closure. Bin Laden killed 2753 people, 6000 soldiers died, 4453 of those in the wrong country for no reason at all. There’s no closure for their loved ones. That’s why this is revenge, not justice. Revenge is for those powerful enough to take it, justice is for everyone.

Comment #138: JThompson  on  05/03  at  01:53 PM

I will say that it’s funny that no one has a single quarrel with my points about feminism.  Think we solved the mystery of why Pandagon doesn’t have cannibalistic clusterfucks in comments!

You have historically been kind of unresponsive to criticism, or at least unwilling to center it on this site in any substantial way.  I assume that’s why your discussion sections don’t degenerate in quite that way.  The people who would spend a lot of time minutely criticizing you on issues of feminist dogma, purity, or (especially, perhaps) privilege, left a long time ago.  So… being absolutely thick-skinned and unswayable is one way to power through. 

Another solution I’ve seen on a couple of other sites is blocking comments from people who assume bad faith on the part of the post-writer.  Those sites also make a palpable effort to include the voice of anyone who feels unrepresented, and insists that people not judge the life experience of other commenters.

Those are two ways to avoid having your site collapse from self-doubt fueled by a tidal wave of criticism:  extensively moderate comments and block those that won’t engage in a proscribed way, or mock and ignore the criticism until the people get bored or frustrated and leave.

Feministe has been unwilling to go in either direction, and so the comments get pulled into purity tests almost constantly. 

I think there has to be a line though, beyond which it is unfair to expect a thoughtful critic to move.  If the writer has not pretended to represent everyone, everyone shouldn’t take personal offense when they find themselves decentered.  That’s the line for me -while I will try my best to be an ally, it is unreasonable and abusive to expect me not to be the center of my own life.  If a blogger is primarily blogging about their own experience you could reasonably criticize them if they are assholish about an experience you have but that they do not share, but it isn’t reasonable to expect them to think about that experience first always, at the expense of themselves. 

Women have traditionally been expected to side-line themselves in support of other people.  An important part of feminism is allowing that everyone has the right to be the center of their own lives.  I think that’s what they’re toying with in the Feministe post.  You can criticize people for being assholes (i.e. for saying ‘here’s what’s wrong with you’), but not for writing from their own experience, and not for failing to be 100% aware of everything all the time.  If a person wants to write about a hat on their own blog, let them write about a freaking hat.  So long as they’re not saying that your attitude towards hats is wrong in some way, what’s the freaking problem? 

The comment policy is open enough on Feministe that it would have been possible to say, “I think the hat thing is complicated by this political thing,” but for some reason commenters had to go with, “Why didn’t you think about this political thing first?  Is it because you are WRONG and BAD in some essential way?  I think so!”  And who does that?  Assholes do that.

On this blog I think you would have gotten to “assholes do that” pretty fast, and most of your long-term commenters would have agreed.

Comment #139: Eileen  on  05/03  at  02:25 PM

That didn’t look so long before I punched blaspheme.

Comment #140: Eileen  on  05/03  at  02:37 PM

You are on a roll, Amanda.  Seriously.  I have been feeling so hopeless at the state of certain corners of the internet, and you described it perfectly.  I feel like bouncing now.

Comment #141: alicefairy  on  05/03  at  02:38 PM

Hey guys and gals, remember when people in this and the other thread suggested that maybe the story of bin Laden using one of his wives as a human story was made up, and people responded by calling them conspiracy nuts?  Well, turns out it was, and that Bin Laden wasn’t armed.  A deliberate choice was made to execute him instead of taking him in.  So much for the rule of law.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/03/osama_human_shield/
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/03/2846212/white-house-bin-laden-not-armed.html

Comment #142: clever screen name  on  05/03  at  02:46 PM

  Did anybody call them conspiracy nuts? Or did they just argue that it couldn’t possibly be possible, because politicians always lie?  And yet that human shield thing, with women, has specifically been observed in both Iraq and Afghanistan?

And if bin Laden died the way so many of his victims did…..well, I’m not going to be a liar and say I give much of a shit. I love it when people impose these impossible standards on situations like this and then act all superior when the people actually doing the work aren’t perfect enough for them.

Comment #143: ginmar  on  05/03  at  03:06 PM

What about the feminist lefties who say, “This fist-pumping jingoism is gross and I don’t want any part of it, and if you don’t like that, fuck off”?

Amanda, you’re arguing that we should speak our truth and not give a shit about whether we alienate our audience. But you’re also saying that we liberals should own the celebration whether they’re feeling it or not.

The world is a better place without OBL, but I don’t feel like celebrating the circumstances under which he left the planet. According to investigative journo Mark Hosenball, this may have been a kill mission from the beginning. Note that Obama specifically pledged on the campaign trail to kill OBL, not to bring him to justice. The White House’s story about the raid is changing by the day.

I’d feel more celebratory if I thought that killing OBL had a significant positive impact beyond making people feel good that we killed the bastard. But objectively, killing OBL wasn’t a big deal for global terrorism. He wasn’t the acting head of Al Qaeda. He hadn’t planned a terrorist attack in years. He’d already been effectively neutralized to the point where experts were unsure if he was alive or dead, and indifferent either way. We killed him for the sake of killing him. It wasn’t justice, it was pure vengeance.

The World’s Only Superpower finally tracked OBL down, but only after nearly a decade of searching and untold billions of dollars spent. So, getting all fist pumpy seems a little silly. Great, we got one guy, years after it ceased to matter. We didn’t even take him alive, maybe by accident, maybe by design. If it was the former, the mission was less than a success on its own terms. If it’s the latter, it’s a scandal and nothing to be patting ourselves on the back about.

I do think we should declare victory and go home, but I don’t feel like celebrating when I say it. Why not? Because using OBL as an excuse is supplying an arbitrary end to an occupation that hasn’t been about OBL for years. I feel like I’m being condescending to people if I try to argue that the death of OBL is some kind of turning point.

Comment #144: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  05/03  at  03:10 PM

We totally should have given Osama bin Laden a hug when we found him.

 

 

 

 


(Yes, I’m acting childish and silly, because right now acting childish and silly is what I feel like doing, and you can’t stop me, so there! HAHAHAHA!!!)

Comment #145: DTGslu2K  on  05/03  at  03:19 PM

Why is it ok to express joy but not disgust at that joy?

That’s fine, as long as I can express disgust at the disgust at the joy. And then of course you can express disgust at my disgust at you disgust at other’s joy, and we can go on ad infinitum.

I think this particular debate has devolved into a futile waste of time.

Comment #146: DTGslu2K  on  05/03  at  03:22 PM

That Feministe comment thread is depressing because it’s ended up in the same familiar place. Every time there is one of these blowups and a blogger leaves (or just confesses that she’s feeling fed up, like here) there is this pious little circle jerk in which every one promises to do better at Owning Their Privilege. No seems to stop and ask whether this whole culture of incessantly demanding that every own their privilege/check their privilege/abase themselves properly when “called out” is what drive these toxic dynamics in the first place. Or at least allows jerks to get away with being jerks by wrapping themselves in that particular language.

It seems like Jill’s initial post was a genuine attempt to get people to think about why Feministe (and other sites) have been in this downward spiral, and the collective response of the commentariat seems to be “nope”.

Comment #147: Nobody  on  05/03  at  03:24 PM

I guess the short version of my objection to the way these things go down is that “own your privilege” too often becomes shorthand for “shut the fuck up.”  And I think it’s understandable to see that as unproductive.

In the case of Obama celebrations…  yeah, this is huge and people will have different reactions.  I understand celebrating this, even though it is probably only a symbolic end to this era rather than an actual end.  I guess I don’t really care that much how other people behave.  There’s room for a lot of different reactions here.

Comment #148: Eileen  on  05/03  at  03:51 PM

Osama bin Laden, not Obama.  I can’t believe I just did that too.  Ugh.

Comment #149: Eileen  on  05/03  at  03:56 PM

@ginmar: Late, I know. Sleep and work and all that, but: What? I was asking for clarification in the first part, because I couldn’t decide if you meant that yes, regular people become torturers or no, special monsters happen to show up in the military. Seems like you mean yes, regular people become torturers. Which I agree with, which is one of the reasons I was extra confused by your demands for honest, open requests for war-making. Because, again, no leaders in the run up to any war I know of has ever explained that war makes regular people do horrible things for what, for us in the past sixty years, has way too often served mainly rhetorical ends. Personally, I don’t think soldiers have to break any laws of warfare to do terrible things. War is terrible, when ‘properly’ conducted. You don’t need massacres for it to be awful. Just plain old war. I never said that soldiers loved massacres, although I’m guessing when massacres happen it’s partly because of the following-orders thing. And I definitely don’t think that horrible war crimes happen in a vacuum, although you seem to be accusing me of…of what? Both insufficiently believing in the awesomeness AND the terribleness of our troops?

Comment #150: the duck-billed placelot  on  05/03  at  04:35 PM

We usually have reasons for feeling the way we do. Those reasons are subject to rational critique.

If you’re delighted because you believe that the death of OBL made the world a lot safer, your delight is based on false assumptions.

If you’re celebrating because you think this was a great military victory, you should consider that assessment in the larger context. It took the U.S. 10 years to track down OBL, we only found him after he’d already become largely irrelevant, and we killed a lot of innocent people while we were busy hunting in the wrong place. The circumstances of bin Laden’s capture suggest that the U.S. has been rather spectacularly double-crossed by its so-called ally, Pakistan—which would be a pretty big embarrassment to the counterterrorism professionals who allowed themselves to be suckered all this time. Finally, in the best case scenario, the mission was a partial failure because OBL wasn’t taken alive. In the worst case scenario, killing OBL was the goal all along and the government is lying to us.

Comment #151: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  05/03  at  04:52 PM

@roscoe: Possibly because one side is doing nothing but acting childish and whining about how oppressed they are when people point out what this victory cost us.

Comment #152: JThompson  on  05/03  at  04:56 PM

  Did anybody call them conspiracy nuts? Or did they just argue that it couldn’t possibly be possible, because politicians always lie?

Ahem:

Except that we do know that the Americans are going to paint ObL in the worst possible light.  Maybe he did use a woman as a shield, maybe he froze in confusion, maybe he was sharing a bed with his wife, maybe some other woman got in the way.

When the Taliban report on civilian casualties from American bombing, this is always dismissed unless and until journalists document it, even if it is likely - because the Taliban have a vested interest in painting Americans as monsters.

The US Government has a vested interest in painting ObL as a monster.  When you don’t know whether the “official” version of events is true or not, you go with assuming it’s biased towards the people making the report.

Reading.  Try it.

And yet that human shield thing, with women, has specifically been observed in both Iraq and Afghanistan?

Yes, and American soldiers have been observed to rape and murder civilians.  Therefore, we should assume all American soldiers do this?

Comment #153: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  04:59 PM

I am not so bothered by the fact that people are celebrating bin Laden’s death. I won’t be celebrating, but I understand the feeling…I remember dancing in the streets when Pinochet died.

The bigger problem is that so many people on the left don’t seem at all bothered by American imperialism. The assassination of bin Laden was a clear violation of Pakistani sovereignty. Obama’s version of the war on terror includes (among other things) drone strikes that have killed hundreds of Pakistani civilians. Seems there are some on the American left who don’t have a problem with violating sovereignty and killing civilians…just as long as it doesn’t get too messy.

If you are happy that bin Laden is dead, fair enough. But this isn’t a victory for justice, it’s a victory for imperialism. “Liberal” imperialism is still imperialism.

Comment #154: contratodo  on  05/03  at  06:18 PM

The bigger problem is that so many people on the left don’t seem at all bothered by American imperialism. The assassination of bin Laden was a clear violation of Pakistani sovereignty.

Arguably covered by the “hostis humani generis” principle.

Comment #155: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  06:26 PM

@PiatoR

Perhaps, but if we accept that, other countries have every right to conduct similar operations in the United States to assassinate American terrorists.

Comment #156: contratodo  on  05/03  at  06:41 PM

Yessss…?

Comment #157: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/03  at  07:35 PM

Perhaps, but if we accept that, other countries have every right to conduct similar operations in the United States to assassinate American terrorists.

It has been known to happen. Ultimately, a lot of these things come down to judgment calls. Turkey captured a PKK leader on Kenyan soil. We have basically regarded Pakistan as unable to control its own Taliban within its borders. contratodo’s look at this through the lens of 19th century colonialism is probably the wrong perspective.

Comment #158: Tyro  on  05/03  at  09:18 PM

@Amanda

I have to object to your assertion that calling out words “lame” and “crazy” is about enforcing rules and language policing people.

It is instead about confronting the vile perpetuation of oppression against the physically and mentally disabled and the symbols of that oppression.

Maybe I’m not one of those people you’re talking about, but I don’t know and I feel that there are only a few people like me here at Pandagon who’ll call out people using ableist slurs and stereotypes. I even remember you using the phrase “language policing” when speaking to me about my objection of you constantly calling people you disagree with crazy

Do you think that there are never clear examples where someone is slurring others or being a bigot? Does everything have to be teased out of context when the context is “hey person-type X, I hate you”?

Funny, as in it’s not, that you are against bigotry and symbols of bigotry save when it comes to disabled people. What’s up with that lapse or omission of disabled people?

And I guess I’m one of those killjoys too, as I saw no reason for the jubilant celebration that I saw. Osama Bin Laden won. He punked the whole U.S. so more USians and their allies would be killed and more minds would be turned against the Western World. He got us to blow our dough on needless wars which helped drive the country to economic collapse, a thing he wanted too.

We didn’t win. People should instead be learning a sobering lesson about this about how their hate can be easily played in the hands of an evil person like bin Laden

Comment #159: R.T.  on  05/03  at  11:44 PM

I have to object to your assertion that calling out words “lame” and “crazy” is about enforcing rules and language policing people.

R.T., she didn’t pull those examples out of nowhere—she was specifically referring to your objections. She’s heard you out and found your arguments on this matter wanting. I fail to understand what you hope to do by simply repeating the same assertions she found unconvincing the first several times.

There are a lot of reasons why the comments section here hasn’t devolved into infighting. I think one of the reasons is that we all generally know where Amanda stands—she says her piece, we say ours, and we either learn how to deal with it or we leave: people don’t hang around here hoping to feel “validated.”

Comment #160: Tyro  on  05/04  at  12:23 AM

Comment #161: Tyro

I use the same logic and argument that informs feminists, lgbt activists, and anti-racists, so I find it perplexing that ableist/disablist bigotry is enjoyed by some and even loved by others of the progressive community.

It’s far from harmless, yet as disabled people find themselves being treated worse and worse in the US we also become Persona non grata at the same time by progressives, people supposedly on our side.

I don’t get it. I know progressives pride themselves spotting groups who’ve been invisibilized, but the disabled are one of the largest, yet least visible group in USian society, and If it ain’t bigotry than I’d like to know what it is that explains it.

Comment #161: R.T.  on  05/04  at  01:17 AM

@roscoe: Possibly because one side is doing nothing but acting childish and whining about how oppressed they are when people point out what this victory cost us.

My answer to the question, “How much did this cost us?” is probably the exact same as yours. Entirely too fucking much.

If your claim is that the massive amount of human suffering that was created on the path from September 12, 2001 until May 1, 2011 to get rid of the top dog behind 9/11 was in no way worth it, A-fucking-men, comrade. A-fucking-men. You’re preaching to the choir.

And I don’t in any way, shape or form feel oppressed by people criticizing the celebrating of OBL’s death… not sure what I posted that would lead you to believe that I did. Could you perhaps provide an exact quote of something I wrote in which I suggested that I felt oppressed? My childish response - which I wholeheartedly acknowledged was childish when I posted it - was not me retaliating over feeling “oppressed”, but rather venting over feeling annoyed… at no one in particular.

I guess my thought is that at the end of the day, does it really matter that much that some college kids who grew up with Osama bin Laden as an omnipresent boogeymen in their lives felt a sense of jubilation when that boogeyman was finally slayed? Yeah, I know, calling him a boogeyman is probably dehumanizing language and whatnot (DOH! There goes my sarcasmometer again). I’m guessing that a whole plethora of other people were murdered on May 1, 2011 as well, and I think most of them probably deserve my tears more than OBL.

But, whatever. Agree to disagree on this issue.

I am, however, someone who thinks it’s long past time we get the fuck out of these pointless wars - something I believed no less fervently last week before this past weekend’s murdering of a mass murderer occurred. Perhaps on that much bigger issue we can agree.

Comment #162: DTGslu2K  on  05/04  at  01:27 AM

Now that you have more information, and you know that Bin Laden was killed while unarmed; that the American soldiers did not have the permission of the Pakistani government to carry out the strike; and the soldiers never intended to take him alive for trial, can you better understand the qualms people have about the dancing and chanting in the streets?

When Bush allowed torture of captured enemies, I couldn’t approve. I can’t approve of Obama allowing assassination. Truth, Justice and the American way: what are they now?

Does anyone believe “Yay! We can all go home now!” is going to happen?

Comment #163: eilish  on  05/04  at  04:39 AM

When Bush allowed torture of captured enemies, I couldn’t approve.

But that is because torturing people, even wartime enemies is a crime and a unacceptable stepping over the line of civilized norms—even in the middle of a war.

Finding bin Laden and killing him is more in the category of <a >killing Admiral Yamamoto</a>: something that, at worst, can be criticized as less-than-sportsmanlike conduct.

Comment #164: Tyro  on  05/04  at  09:03 AM

Errattum for 107: I misread Comment 102. I agree with what ginmar said, and I agree with what I thought she said, but I posted something in response to the latter that’s not really pertinent to the former.

liberalrob, 125:

The celebrations were entirely predictable.  Yes, of course this was used by some as an opportunity to express racism and bloodlust; that’s not at all surprising.  Note it where it occurs and move on.

This ties into what the half-sentence in my last comment was going to say if I’d intended to leave it in: racismmay underlie some of the celebrating; that doesn’t mean all the celbrating was racist in character.

Comment #165: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/04  at  09:19 AM

@Tyro

R.T., she didn’t pull those examples out of nowhere—she was specifically referring to your objections. She’s heard you out and found your arguments on this matter wanting.

In the case of “crazy,” we all heard those arguments.  Those arguments monopolized this thread.  Pandagon apparently has a lot of crazy and non-crazy commenters who support using the word crazy, some non-crazy commenters who have issues with the word, and a few people who agree with R.T.

We’ve ALL had the argument and IMO the Pandagon community reached a consensus. Of course it is fine to disagree with the consensus, but at this point R.T. endlessly repeating that disagreement with nothing new to add is approaching trolling.

(We haven’t had an argument about the word lame AFAIK, but then the word rarely seems to come up.  Here certainly doesn’t seem the place to hash that out though.  Isn’t the Friday music thread always an open thread?  The insufferable music snob talk tends to be over by Monday morning…)

On topic? My anecdata of Facebook friends seems to show that no one is celebrating (although some are joking), some people are expressing conflicting emotions, and some people are scolding Americans for their bloodlust.  (One now-former Facebook friend said it was a bad thing that Osama bin Laden was dead because now no one would pay any attention to the devastation in Alabama.) 

I think all of my other thoughts are on the first thread on this topic and they’re pretty much covered by the anti-anti-celebration crowd here.

Comment #166: Atheist, A Feminist  on  05/04  at  11:12 AM

@Tyro
(Apologies to all if this is a double-post.)

R.T., she didn’t pull those examples out of nowhere—she was specifically referring to your objections. She’s heard you out and found your arguments on this matter wanting.

In the case of “crazy,” we all heard those arguments.  Those arguments monopolized this thread.  Pandagon apparently has a lot of crazy and non-crazy commenters who support using the word crazy, some non-crazy commenters who have issues with the word, and a few people who agree with R.T.

We’ve ALL had the argument and IMO the Pandagon community reached a consensus. Of course it is fine to disagree with the consensus, but at this point R.T. endlessly repeating that disagreement with nothing new to add is approaching trolling.

(We haven’t had an argument about the word lame AFAIK, but then the word rarely seems to come up.  Here certainly doesn’t seem the place to hash that out though.  Isn’t the Friday music thread always an open thread?  The insufferable music snob talk tends to be over by Monday morning…)

On topic? My anecdata of Facebook friends seems to show that no one is celebrating (although some are joking), some people are expressing conflicting emotions, and some people are scolding Americans for their bloodlust.  (One now-former Facebook friend said it was a bad thing that Osama bin Laden was dead because now no one would pay any attention to the devastation in Alabama.) 

I think all of my other thoughts are on the first thread on this topic and they’re pretty much covered by the anti-anti-celebration crowd here.

Comment #167: Atheist, A Feminist  on  05/04  at  11:14 AM

I have very little time to write this; apologies if it seems jumbled:

I didn’t read Sirota as “scolding”.  He’s lamenting that Americans would treat a death, even one meted out justly (I think a trial would have been more in line with our values, but I won’t lose sleep over it), as what it is: the taking of a life, and not pulling off a prank on the cabin across the lake.

Like when Twisty says “the point isn’t to ban porn, it’s to make it obsolete”, I *thought* I was in a country where people would think: “Celebrate someone getting killed? WTF?!?”. So add one more thing to the list of what needs to be changed to have us live up to our ideals.

OTOH, I do relate to the “Obama is a cool motherfucker” photo captions.  Sometimes funny is just funny.  (Incidentally, the HBO special *Talking Funny* has a good example of this, with Ricky Gervais comng off as a prat, IMHO, for refusing to believe that somethig stupid could also just be funny, no irony needed.)

BTW, Amanda:  You mention “Christian-tinged”, and “WASP shit”.  Has Brooklyn changed so much that you’ve never seen a Jewish mother scold their child?*  Have you never heard the cautionary tale of the Golem? (It attacks the Jews of the town, as well as their oppressors.)  Way to blot out an entire culture; the Christians themselves only tried for 1600 years.  But who’s counting?  [Looks up exact date of Nicean Creed].

A little kidding on the square; I do think it informs where your coming from, and what you’re missing:  We’re not objecting to having fun, we’re objecting to having fun over killing someone.  Killing someone, even if we agree as a society that it should be done, is the most serious thing you could fucking do.

*Actually, I know for a fact that approbation is alive and well in Brooklyn:  Just saw a picture from a friend in Brooklyn of a pile of dog shit on the sidewalk, with two neatly taped signs framing it: “WTF?!? Who leaves dog shit on the sidewalk?” “Pick up after your dog or don’t own a dog.”

Comment #168: NY Expat  on  05/04  at  11:37 AM

I have very little time to write this; apologies if it seems jumbled (also standard double-post stuff):

I didn’t read Sirota as “scolding”.  He’s lamenting that Americans would treat a death, even one meted out justly (I think a trial would have been more in line with our values, but I won’t lose sleep over it), as what it is: the taking of a life, and not pulling off a prank on the cabin across the lake.

Like when Twisty says “the point isn’t to ban porn, it’s to make it obsolete”, I *thought* I was in a country where people would think: “Celebrate someone getting killed? WTF?!?”. So add one more thing to the list of what needs to be changed to have us live up to our ideals.

OTOH, I do relate to the “Obama is a cool motherfucker” photo captions.  Sometimes funny is just funny.  (Incidentally, the HBO special *Talking Funny* has a good example of this, with Ricky Gervais comng off as a prat, IMHO, for refusing to believe that somethig stupid could also just be funny, no irony needed.)

BTW, Amanda:  You mention “Christian-tinged”, and “WASP shit”.  Has Brooklyn changed so much that you’ve never seen a Jewish mother scold their child?*  Have you never heard the cautionary tale of the Golem? (It attacks the Jews of the town, as well as their oppressors.)  Way to blot out an entire culture; the Christians themselves only tried for 1600 years.  But who’s counting?  [Looks up exact date of Nicean Creed].

A little kidding on the square; I do think it informs where your coming from, and what you’re missing:  We’re not objecting to having fun, we’re objecting to having fun over killing someone.  Killing someone, even if we agree as a society that it should be done, is the most serious thing you could fucking do.

*Actually, I know for a fact that approbation is alive and well in Brooklyn:  Just saw a picture from a friend in Brooklyn of a pile of dog shit on the sidewalk, with two neatly taped signs framing it: “WTF?!? Who leaves dog shit on the sidewalk?” “Pick up after your dog or don’t own a dog.”

Comment #169: NY Expat  on  05/04  at  11:39 AM

The only thing I feel qualified to comment on is Bodies and the things you said regarding that. I think it’s fully acceptable to give Bodies the finger but not dismiss the Sex Pistols and punk rock in the same way. It’s illogical to judge an entire band or genre on one mistake, but it’s reasonable to dimiss the mistake itself. I always skip over Public Enemy’s “Meet the G Who Killed Me” because I rarely feel like listening to some homophobic rubbish that I’ve already dealt with before, but that doesn’t stop me from enjoying the rest of their output and celebrating their revolutionary potential.

Comment #170: Treefinger  on  05/04  at  01:13 PM

Comment #168: Atheist, A Feminist

We’ve ALL had the argument and IMO the Pandagon community reached a consensus. Of course it is fine to disagree with the consensus, but at this point R.T. endlessly repeating that disagreement with nothing new to add is approaching trolling.

I have to ask, if a group can’t get the basic 101 stuff, how can I move from that too? I find it interesting that opposition to continued use of oppressive language being used in oppressive fashions is “trolling.”

We haven’t had an argument about the word lame AFAIK, but then the word rarely seems to come up.  Here certainly doesn’t seem the place to hash that out though.  Isn’t the Friday music thread always an open thread?  The insufferable music snob talk tends to be over by Monday morning…)

It’s been brought up, but I try to pick my battles, I even disagree with the use of the word stupid but I don’t make a deal about it because I wouldn’t have the energy to engage the worse stuff.

Comment #171: R.T.  on  05/04  at  02:51 PM

I understand self-inquiry over these terms, R.T., but lately I’ve been asking myself what it builds if I bring it up online, especially in a space that is unconcerned about the issue.  What’s the goal?  At the end of it all, what is this supposed to build, and is this the best way to achieve that result? 

I’ve done this in the past, but I’m trying now to tease out a way to go forward and contribute without feeling the need to control, largely because I find that’s what I most want from the people with whom I’m interacting.

Comment #172: Eileen  on  05/04  at  04:32 PM

@R.T.

You’ll notice that I didn’t address you.  That is because we have been through this.  I find your position on the word crazy to be harmful, you find mine to be.  We aren’t going to resolve that by running through the same arguments I already linked to.

I find it interesting that opposition to continued use of oppressive language being used in oppressive fashions is “trolling.”

You’ll notice that you missed two important words in my comment. 1) Consensus.  I think it is important to note that the word crazy is not agreed upon to be “oppressive language,” and after the long debate last time, the majority here felt that it was not.  2) Approaching.  I don’t think that you are trolling, but you have said the same thing SO MANY TIMES.  We KNOW how you feel about the word.  You should, after all this time, know how most of us feel about the word.  To ignore this or think that somehow your same (IMO absolutely ridiculous, poorly reasoned, and harmful) arguments are going to be better received produces the same result as trolls, that is an annoying derail of the conversation that suggests you aren’t really here to participate as a member of the community.

I get that you disagree with me on this and I have tried to understand why you do, but nothing you’ve said on the word crazy nor the arguments against the word that I have found elsewhere is in the least bit convincing to me.  I really wish that you could understand that, to me, your position on the word crazy stems from and contributes to oppression, but we’ve gone around and around on that before.  I wish that you’d take my suggestion and bring up these debates on the open thread.  (And I would have noticed if you’d done so in this case and appreciated that you got the point of my objection instead of trying to score the type of points Amanda referred to in the original post by completely missing my point about the trolling-LIKE behavior.)  Really, after the weekend no one seems to be using them, and I personally would love it if we could all go off topic there once the talking-about-music-I-don’t-listen-to stuff is over.

Comment #173: Atheist, A Feminist  on  05/04  at  07:01 PM

Apologies to everyone for engaging in the exact same behavior that I criticized.

Comment #174: Atheist, A Feminist  on  05/04  at  07:03 PM

PiaTor, don’t move the goal posts and then be a condescending shit about it, too. I didn’t say all; but you were eager to create that strawman. I said it had been observed previously, the OBL isn’t exactly a member of NOW, that it was by no means unreasonable to believe it.

And jeez, 151,  soldiers are human beings. That means they come from the same towns as you, have the same friends, the same upbringing.  Many soldiers perform with honor and courage. But the fact is, a lot of kids join the Army so they can go to college, and then presumably they can get talked down to by the sort of people who get impatient when you explain that the Army can’t turn a person into a rapist or whatever unless the seed’s already there. That means there’s a truly ugly underbelly to a lot of little American towns and cities.  The whole point about going to war is that you’re asking soldiers to do some really really hard and difficult things, and they shouldn’t be lied to about it, and in effect, the public should own up when they’re part of that process,  which a lot of people were in the days after 9/11.  There were no better angels of our nature there, and I’ve seen a few too many assholes treat 9/11 the same way other assholes treated the Japan quake.  The public got led along because it’s easier to do that then to ask questions or make changes. They slapped yellow ribbons on their SUVs and to make up for it, they wave flags when soldiers come home in boxes. That that’s practically the sole unified response to the problem of soldiers’ eventual fates, as caused by war.  Wave a yellow ribbon, call them a hero—-and ignore they were an ordinary kid with training——and ignore that maybe the burden shouldn’t all be on soldiers,  that being a citizen should involve more than slapping those yellow ribbons on your SUV and rubberstamping what the politicians say. Soldiers aren’t an alien species; they’re just what happens when you give people training and discipline and hope and ideals.  And they do the things that a lot of people with cozy lives never have to think about.

Comment #175: ginmar  on  05/04  at  11:31 PM

Comment #174: Atheist, A Feminist

I didn’t know the music threads were open threads, I’ve always ignored them.

Frankly I bring up my arguments in the threads were the oppressive and exclusionary actions are happening. I don’t perceive that as being off-topic or trolling when someone even the article writer brought it. I’m responding. I do find it perplexing that Amanda gets to be the public face of progressivism when she actively pushes aside those who would be on hers.

So would you mind talking next music thread or by email?

Comment #176: R.T.  on  05/04  at  11:51 PM

2) Approaching.  I don’t think that you are trolling, but you have said the same thing SO MANY TIMES.

Yeah, R.T., you know I’ve argued about this with you before—and that I’m sympathetic, but I ultimately disagree about “crazy” being necessarily oppressive. And I think that the last huge-ass “crazy” thread was pretty good, because everyone had a lot to say and it all got hashed out (albeit not to your liking.) But SERIOUSLY you have been repeating this thing a lot; I literally started reading your comment, got to the “crazy” objection, and thought “gah, this comment must be written by R.T.” So yah. Kinda getting repetitive.

It’s hard to put your finger on when someone crosses the line from issuing a legitimate criticism to when someone is trucking in outrage for the hell of it, but like with obscenity, you know it when you see it. You can just tell when someone is more interested in feeling righteous than doing right, and when they prefer to tear down rather than build up.  Sometimes they prefer it because it’s easier.  Sometimes they’re bullies and assholes.  Most people I see doing this are genuinely just lazy.

I’ve certainly felt myself doing this. It’s absolutely laziness, and ego-stroking; the mood in which I do this sort of bullshit “calling out” is the same mood in which I feel particularly trollish or snide. And it’s an easy, lazy way to a free cookie without having to be so uncouth as to ask for a cookie (saying “I don’t want a cookie!” being the new, well… cookie.)

And I think a lot of feminists—particularly on self-proclaimed “sanctimonious” blogs like Feministe (bless poor Jill’s heart, truly)—know perfectly well that they are doing it, but calling out and piling on feel so deliciously good and they love it too much to keep their goddamn metaphorical hands above their metaphorical waists. It’s like playing as a sniper in a videogame; lolling around safely under cover until some poor bastard sticks their head out and then blasting the crap out of them (achievement unlocked! “No One Likes Feminists Anymore!”) and then circle-jerking with your buddies over the corpse.

I prefer Pandagon’s style, where (perhaps) more insensitive things may be said, but you aren’t walking on glass the entire time you’re typing. And you’re not expected to toe the line and pile onto all the “bad” feminists, because everyone’s already a little bit bad and we all know it. And circle-jerks, if you like that sort of thing, are somewhat more consensual!

Comment #177: Bagelsan  on  05/05  at  02:36 AM

[B]ut calling out and piling on feel so deliciously good and they love it too much to keep their goddamn metaphorical hands above their metaphorical waists.

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/03/24/13-ways-of-looking-at-liz-lemon/

Scroll down to #3, where Sady coins “Liz Lemonism”, but also writes about, to use the linked post’s phrasing, “filling the gaps”.

Comment #178: NY Expat  on  05/05  at  03:03 AM

I’m having trouble accepting the idea that white women take up too much space in on-line feminism especially, given that this space is imaginary and could theoretically expand forever.  it is, however, easier to get them to feel bad about themselves.  Fuck Liz Lemonism.  I’ll say it again;  it’s abusive to expect a person not to be the center of their own lives.  I don’t expect it of men, and I won’t expect it of white women either.

Comment #179: Eileen  on  05/05  at  09:27 AM

And to relate what I just said to the post way, way above: my world is a better world with the Sex Pistols in it, ‘Bodies’ notwithstanding.

Comment #180: Eileen  on  05/05  at  10:49 AM

Isn’t a big part of feminism—if not now, certainly historically—about allowing women to be the centers of their own respective lives?

Comment #181: Hershele Ostropoler  on  05/05  at  01:18 PM

Yes, Hershele, unless you run Feministe, in which case you must have your eye on pleasing everyone else, all the time, even at the expense of your own sense of self-worth or well-being.

Comment #182: Eileen  on  05/05  at  06:13 PM

182:

Isn’t a big part of feminism—-if not now, certainly historically-—about allowing women to be the centers of their own respective lives?

183:

unless you run Feministe, in which case you must have your eye on pleasing everyone else, all the time, even at the expense of your own sense of self-worth or well-being.

I haven’t visited Feministe for quite a while, mostly because of what Jill was complaining about.

When I looked at the comments and discussion (there and at other sites), my first reaction was: jeez, who the hell do these people think they are, anyway?  Over and over, I saw people demanding that Jill & Co. do things to suit them.  IOW, if you put the (unpaid) time and effort to make your blog something actually worth reading, you are suddenly your readers’ slave.  Talk about “no good deed goes unpunished.”  More to the point, who really needs to “check their privilege” here?

This is one of the reasons I’ve never wanted to label myself a feminist, or a progressive, or any of those other left-wing isms: if you do, you get all these arrogant, self-righteous jerks who come up and think they own you.

I thought Jill was far too obsequeous in her posting.  There’s no way you can make these people happy.  All you can do is to tell them to get lost.  (Though I’d put it less politely.)  The sooner you do it, the better off everybody is.

 

Comment #183: AMM  on  05/06  at  02:45 PM
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