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Next entry: WH Press Secretary Gibbs serves as admin punching bag again re: DADT, DOMA Previous entry: You can’t make an omelette without killing a few centenarians

The best argument against gay marriage ever

Via Dan Savage, I now give you the best argument ever against gay marriage, by David Klinghoffer:

Consider this piece from the first century BCE poet Catullus (Carmen 61:134-141), in which the poet addresses himself to a bridegroom on the eve of his nuptials:

“You are said to find it hard, Perfumed bridegroom, to give up Smooth-skinned boys, but give them up… We realize you’ve only known Permitted pleasures: husbands, though, Have no right to the same pleasures.”

The social history behind this piece is clear: once they’ve experienced sex with other men, Catullus tells us, men are unsatisfied with what their new wives provide them. Notice that the poet is unconcerned about the husband’s dallying with other women—it’s the other men around that threaten the marital union.

Okay, let’s see if you can follow this.  If men are allowed to marry other men, women will lose out because because they when marry men—-which at leas Klinghoffer will concede will still be legal—-they will not be able to keep their marriages together because once a guy has tasted forbidden man flesh, he can’t go back to inadequate lady flesh.  Men can step out with other women without threatening the main marriage, because apparently it’s just easier for men to close their eyes and imagine that the missus is the mistress long enough to complete his conjugal duties.  So if gay marriage is legalized, all the men will want to fuck each other, and women will have no one decent to marry.  Women can’t marry each other, of course, because a) Klinghoffer keeps forgetting about lesbians when he’s dwelling on the delicious images of an ancient Roman cornucopia of manflesh and b) just like men, women can’t lower themselves to touching women once they’ve sampled the dudely goods.

Let’s face it.  No one wants vagina when penis is available, end of story.  You, like Klinghoffer, know that if you ever succumb even once to the urge to reach out and touch a cock, you will forever be ruined, never able again to muster enough pleasure out of a union with a lady to get through it.

But what I find really interesting about Klinghoffer’s argument is this—-he’s trying to argue against gay marriage.  Like many panicked wingnuts, he seems to think that legalizing gay marriage=legalizing dudes fucking each other.  What they fail to understand is that dudes can already legally fuck each other.  Though perhaps they have to mentally block this knowledge lest they give into the urge that they claim that all straight men have, to drop their wives and run off to swim in a sea of testicles.  But the truth is that Klinghoffer’s fears are already being tested in the real world.  Plain old back hair-sporting straight husbands everywhere can, if they want to, go off and suck all the cock that they want.  Even the risotto-making husbands, or in the wingnut imagination, especially the risotto-making husbands.  We already have the built-in all-purpose dudely excuse—-sports.  You and your guy friends are going off to watch a game, you tell your wife, not letting her know that actually you and your friends have a standing Monday night orgy.  And when your interest in sex with her grinds to a halt because she can’t compare to the exquisite man flesh, she’ll write it off as the sad result of too much time spent over risotto.

This scenario is already 100% legal, as long as the orgy is conducted on private property and doesn’t disturb the neighbors.  Gay marriage doesn’t make this more or less legal.  So, assuming that men have permission to have sex with other men.  Klinghoffer perhaps means that if men have an chance to marry other men, they won’t marry women.  That’s certainly what he hints at here:

The losers from all this will be the vast majority of women. With full social sanction given to homoerotic activity, the historical precedent suggests that tomorrow’s women will have a harder time finding and holding on to suitable men. As women will suffer, so will the vitality and stability of the nuclear family.

But he doesn’t actually say this.  He just says that once you’ve gone dude, you can’t find the inadequate female body arousing any longer, which means that marriages will fall apart due to lack of sex.  That full social sanction of homoerotic activity is all it takes.  Which is a clever, slippery way to avoid the fact that actually, for the purposes of his argument, we already have that.  Men can have sex with men without being punished for it, so why aren’t straight men—-who all secretly would prefer to fuck dudes—-not taking advantage? 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:18 AM • (117) Comments

women will have a harder time finding and holding on to suitable men. As women will suffer, so will the vitality and stability of the nuclear family.

Because when I think “suitable man” I think “a guy who would rather be homosexual, but is apparently too chickenshit.”

Comment #1: Kyso K  on  06/30  at  10:08 AM

Q: What does a lesbian bring on her second date?

A: A U-haul.

Q: What does a gay guy bring on her second date?

A: What second date?

My brother who is gay told me this joke and had to explain it to me about how lesbians fall in love on the fist date.  I tell this joke because I would think it is telling in more ways then one. Some men heterosexual or homosexual will always prefer to be single where women for the most part are the ones that want marriage. This of course is not always true, but generally I would say it is. Of course the grass is always greener so women and men will stray from time to time.

Is that sexist?

Comment #2: Nixxx  on  06/30  at  10:11 AM

OOps I meant What does a gay guy bring on “his” second date?
Sorry for messing up the joke

Comment #3: Nixxx  on  06/30  at  10:15 AM

Shorter Klinghoffer: “I’m only into women because I haven’t tried the real thing(*)”.

(*) See NAMBLA for details.

Comment #4: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/30  at  10:19 AM

Maybe Klinghoffer thinks that the only thing keeping all men from going gay is the social opprobrium of homophobia and unequal marriage laws. (Maybe that’s all that keeps *him* from going gay.) Once same-sex marriage is allowed, why, all the fellas will be flocking to it, and the women will be so lonely.

Comment #5: Orange  on  06/30  at  10:20 AM

It wasn’t a very funny joke to begin with.

Comment #6: mr_subjunctive  on  06/30  at  10:20 AM

This is my absolute favorite kind of homophobe. The one who thinks everyone in the world is gay but heroically suppressing their gay urges. I always love hearing a “straight” person say “everyone feels that way sometimes; that doesn’t mean you should act on it.” I bet most of the stupid fucks aren’t even gay, just bored with straight sex because they could never get anyone interesting to fuck them. It really makes me appreciate straights who are actually straight, who will admit that they’ve given the matter some thought and realized they don’t really have gay feelings, almost like gay feelings are valid or something, not something normal people have and then grow out of.

Comment #7: junk science  on  06/30  at  10:20 AM

“It wasn’t a very funny joke to begin with. “

I heard the U-haul joke from a group of lesbians who laughed themselves silly when they told me.

Comment #8: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  10:23 AM

Oh, I fully understand when you change it a bit…  Being quite heterosexual, I tend to enjoy sex with women…  So, if gay marriage were legal, and other women found out how much fun sex with women was, then I’d lose out! wink

Comment #9: James  on  06/30  at  10:31 AM

Yeah, Nixxx, it kinda is.  It’s also wrong, as reputable (i.e., not things drummed up by Focus on the Family, etc.) studies repeatedly show that men are happier when married, women when single.  Also, extra points for “this joke can’t be heterosexist when I, a straight person, retell it, because some of my best friends… I mean my gay brother told it to me.”

To address the original post, Klinghoffer shows a serious (but unsurprising) lack of historical knowledge about what he’s quoting.  Or, he’s making shit up because it suits him.  He clearly has no idea at all about ancient sexual morality and norms.

Comment #10: rowmyboat  on  06/30  at  10:36 AM

So, Klinghoffer is from the “gay orgasms are as addictive as heroin” school like Paul Cameron.

Comment #11: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  06/30  at  10:39 AM

methinks it’s not the cock that is so loved in this example, but the ass versus the boring lady vagina.  husbands can’t go there with the baby making machine - it would be against god’s law.

Comment #12: somegirl  on  06/30  at  10:41 AM

I heard the U-haul joke from a group of lesbians who laughed themselves silly when they told me.

I hope they never hear the Home Depot joke, or they might just die of mirth.

Comment #13: junk science  on  06/30  at  10:41 AM

So gay marriage is a threat to heterosexuality because everyone knows gay men give the best blowjobs?

Methinks Klinghoffer just outed himself to everyone except himself.

Comment #14: mythago  on  06/30  at  10:42 AM

rowmyboat.  Yeah, I once laughed at a joke some acquaintances told me while laughing themselves.  I’m heterosexist, and the three lesbians must have been heterosexist, too.  You got me, and them.  I’ll just go back and track them down and we can do something that we really want to do like running over people who look queer.

Comment #15: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  10:49 AM

methinks it’s not the cock that is so loved in this example, but the ass versus the boring lady vagina.  husbands can’t go there with the baby making machine - it would be against god’s law.

Well, and it’s a woman’s ass. What fun is that?

I think this guy is really just afraid gay sex might become as boring to him as straight sex if it’s legally sanctioned. It’s that conservative thing about needing to feel naughty and sinful to get off.

Comment #16: junk science  on  06/30  at  10:54 AM

I do believe that there is a word to describe people who think homosexuality is an overwhelming temptation. I believe that word is “homosexual.”

Comment #17: Theron  on  06/30  at  10:56 AM

The nuclear family has been split even before the atom was.  Gays won’t change that one bit, straight people don’t give much of a crap about any relationship but their own, and that’s just how it is.  I can’t think of anyone outside of royal families who thinks about their marriage in terms of the society.  Joining the military, yes.  Joining the Peace Corps, perhaps.  Joining a church, probably.  But joining a marriage?  That’s an individual choice entered into jointly by two people who are looking out for their own best interests, at least it should be.

For a moment I hoped that neither Catullus nor Klinghoffer ever got invited to bachelor parties.  But of course they have, for where else would they have gotten the rich life experience upon which to base their theories?

Comment #18: 3letterjon  on  06/30  at  10:57 AM

Methinks Klinghoffer just outed himself to everyone except himself.

Yup.

Comment #19: Rumblelizard  on  06/30  at  10:57 AM

junk science:

All right, I’ll bite.  What is the Home Depot joke?  Advance it in the spirit of educating me, lest rowmyboat wag his/her finger in your eye.

Comment #20: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  10:57 AM

So, Klinghoffer is from the “gay orgasms are as addictive as heroin” school like Paul Cameron.

Can’t we, you know, get the two of them into bed together so they’ll quit blatherig on where the rest of us have to hear them?

I mean, shit, I’d like to have a little more of The Love That Dare Not Speak Its Name and a little less of The Bigotry That Can’t Shut The Fuck Up Already.

Comment #21: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/30  at  10:58 AM

It’s not actually funny, sorry. It’s just any joke that implies lesbians love Home Depot, because all lesbians are butch. It also applies to fixing cars.

Comment #22: junk science  on  06/30  at  11:00 AM

Amanda, why aren’t you writing for the NYT?  Oh wait.  Your argument is too cogent and logical.

Comment #23: Gnome de Plume  on  06/30  at  11:00 AM

Ah, got it, junk science.  Sorry for the cluelessness.  I will now go to Home Depot and look at every woman there and think “now there’s a lesbian closet case!”

Or not.  I think I’ll just read Alison Bechdel and pretend that I did.  I think that she had a run at that sort of joke when Mo and Syd had their kitchen sink clog.  After the failure of much arguing (big surprise) and organic clog dissolvers Syd brings home a small plunger which, naturally, did the trick.

“Hey.  These things actually work.”

“Who knew?”

Comment #24: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  11:05 AM

rowmyboat.  Yeah, I once laughed at a joke some acquaintances told me while laughing themselves.  I’m heterosexist, and the three lesbians must have been heterosexist, too.  You got me, and them.  I’ll just go back and track them down and we can do something that we really want to do like running over people who look queer.


Context, context, context. 

Someone, like Nixxx, who needed the joke explained, is not gay and doesn’t know very many gay people, if any at all besides his brother cited above.  From him, heterosexist.  Lesbians and their close friends laughing at the stereotypes applied to them?  Not so much.  If some lesbian heard Nixx repeating the joke in straight society, for example, it might get her hackles up or make her feel unsafe.  If she heard it out of the mouth of another lesbian at a gay bar, probably would not, as then it is an in joke.

Really, I shouldn’t have to explain this to someone who reads Pandagon on a regular basis.

Comment #25: rowmyboat  on  06/30  at  11:06 AM

Oh sorrow, oh woe!  How will I possibly know when to shave my armpits and make dinner if my would be husband-leader marries another man?

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:07 AM

Okay, I’m starting to get the feeling that about 70% of Republican politicians, pundits, and anti-gay rights advocates are actually closeted homosexuals. Which is why if these people were nourished and affirmed from a young age that they are okay for who they are and that hell is just a fairy tale, maybe we’d have a lot less crazy in this world.

peace

Comment #27: Thealogian  on  06/30  at  11:09 AM

and what of the Roadtrip joke?

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:10 AM

Oh sorrow, oh woe!  How will I possibly know when to shave my armpits and make dinner if my would be husband-leader marries another man?

Always</i, silly girl, <i>always.

Comment #29: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  11:11 AM

rowmyboat I’d be a little cautious about such a position.  Humour is often a weapon, granted, a dismissive a “keep your place” tool.  But it’s also a key to understanding, a vehicle a person who “doesn’t know very many gay people, if any at all” to understand something about the culture which, until now, has been an alien land for him.  Pointless Home Depot “butch” jokes?  No purpose.  Jokes from within the community about the community which allow an outsider to no longer fear the community?  Valuable.  One wouldn’t want to get in the way of people laughing their way to understanding. 

Road trip jokes?  Don’t know that one.

Comment #30: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  11:15 AM

I just can’t get over the fact that he’s using Catullus to make this point.  At least TRY to find a relevant source.

I am amused that he manages to get the “sticky tape” idea worked in (for once aimed at men instead of women!):
The social history behind this piece is clear: once they’ve experienced sex with other men, Catullus tells us, men are unsatisfied with what their new wives provide them.

Comment #31: FashionablyEvil  on  06/30  at  11:18 AM

Road trip jokes?  Don’t know that one.

Well, since I’ve heard both gay and straight people tell this, I will risk it.

A gay couple and a lesbian couple are about to leave Boston for a honeymoon in San Francisco.  Who arrives first?

The lesbians do.

Why?

Because the lesbians get going lickety split, while the gay guys are still packing their shit!

offensive and funny on several levels of stereotype, that!

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:20 AM

Not that this philosophy of being “spoiled” by having sex with men dovetails nicely with the “converting boys to homosexuality” narrative, as well as the whole ex-gay bullshit.

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:22 AM

Amanda, thatis post is hilarious.  Thank you.

@ somegirl.  I’m not sure.  As someone who has done both, I can testify that an experienced guy’s ass feels exactly the same as the vajajay: like dying and going to heaven.  I just ended up preferring the dude body overall.

Comment #34: jackspratt  on  06/30  at  11:23 AM

Jackspratt in brief: it’s the whole, not the hole that matters.

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:27 AM

That was linked to in Topix a week or so ago.  The guy is taking the Roman Empire as the model society with gay marriage to draw this conclusion from, and I find that the variable that produces this result (socialized-as-bisexual men preferring other men to women) is not legalized same-sex marriage but the practice of keeping women uneducated, cloistered, considered inferior to men, and restricted in the interests and pastimes they are allowed to develop.

You treat a group of people like silly, shallow, inferior drudges, raise them from childhood to be that way, and it’s not surprising that another group might prefer the romantic company of people they consider equals, who are educated like them and whose opinions they respect.  Love—-real love—-is built on mutual respect, and sexist cultures tend to in many ways preclude the formation of that between men and women.  It can happen, certainly, but in such a situation it’s not the default.

Comment #36: Kyra  on  06/30  at  11:32 AM

There’s one I actually like because it’s evocative and logical: What do you call a lesbian with long fingernails? Single.

Comment #37: junk science  on  06/30  at  11:34 AM

Ms. Kate: Are you a lesbian? I’m not sure whether to laugh.

Comment #38: David B.  on  06/30  at  11:36 AM

If Klingonhuffer and Douchehat got together they might keep themselves too occupied to share any more of their bigoted droolings with the rest of us.

One would hope anyway…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  06/30  at  11:40 AM

You and your guy friends are going off to watch a game, you tell your wife, not letting her know that actually you and your friends have a standing Monday night orgy.

Way to blow our cover, Amanda.

Comment #40: Cris  on  06/30  at  11:42 AM

Speaking for myself I find the femine body (and all the attendant parts) exceedingly adequate. In fact if fucking other dudes suddenly stopped being taboo and became down-right fashionable then I would still choose to lay with my good lady wife.

At what point does it become obvious that the most virulent anti-gay wingnuts are the ones who seem to be worried about the temptation to themselves. It is like a recovered alcoholic who refused to allow alcohol in the house. Too tempting, we gotta stop that.

I wish those uptight conservatives would just give in and suck a dick already. Let the rest of use live our lives without having to hear your obsess about your hang-ups. Yeeesh.

Comment #41: fastandsloppy  on  06/30  at  11:43 AM

Nicely said, Kyra.

This line from Klinghoffer’s post threw me for a loop: “At the risk of getting too explicit, I leave it the reader’s basic grasp of anatomy to figure out why in ancient Rome a man who found pleasure in a woman, could also find pleasure in a man, while the record shows that a heterosexual woman rarely found sexual satisfaction in the company of another woman.”
#1. They kept records of women’s sexual satisfaction in ancient Rome? Yeah right.
#2. Dude, if it were true that all men really need is a tight warm place to stick their cocks, and all women need is a large firm thing to stick in their vaginas (sidenote- way to totally ignore the clitoris, dude), my basic grasp of anatomy suggests that hands and toys would suffice. Guess what? Being gay or straight isn’t just about geometry! It’s about relationships and all that sissy liberal stuff.

Comment #42: JessSnark  on  06/30  at  11:43 AM

The guy is taking the Roman Empire as the model society with gay marriage

There was gay marriage in the Roman Empire?

Comment #43: FlipYrWhig  on  06/30  at  11:47 AM

It is like a recovered alcoholic who refused to allow alcohol in the house. Too tempting, we gotta stop that.

Except the recovered alcoholic is advocating a sane and healthy choice for his own survival in his own house, based on extensive negative experience.

The wingnut is fearing temptation into a healthy activity.

Comment #44: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:49 AM

Catullus wrote a lot of poems expressing love/lust for “Lesbia,” but most historians don’t think that had anything to do with lesbians—it was just a pseudonym for the prominent Roman socialite Clodia Metelli.  Apparently, that has to be revised in light of Klinghoffer’s scholarship . . . Was “Lesbia” really Clodia’s famous brother, Publius Clodius Pulcher?

Comment #45: rea  on  06/30  at  11:51 AM

So wait, homophobia = misogyny = traditional marriage advocacy?

Who knew?

No disrespect to gays and all that, and yes, this guy does make himself sound like a bit of a closet case, but to me it seems much more like all of this “why should them gays be happy in their gay marriages of men only because of course lesbians don’t really exist you need to have a dick to be really real” is only partially about gay-hating, and a whole fucking bunch of a lot about woman-hating.

Because to this dude, no matter what the alternative, it’s bound to be better than the hated vagina. And Amanda is well on the right track in hinting that sweaty, grunty, all-male team sports are just a way to sublimate sexual feelings; it’s just that I think those sexual feelings don’t necessarily have to be homosexual in order to be misogynist. It’s like a whole other sexual orientation: republicoxuality.

Comment #46: MarinaS  on  06/30  at  11:51 AM

David B.: funny, but know this.  Ms. Kate is straight ... until her husband, tempted by the availability of gay marriage will be magically and instantly transformed into a twink-dinking smooth-skinned obsessive.

(And I can picture Ms. Kate, smoulderingly angry, leaning forward and saying in a Dangerously Quiet Voice, “seeker, are you saying that I don’t have smooth skin?”)

Comment #47: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  11:54 AM

Ha! 

while we are dealing in stereotypes, I’m not sure I’d mind too much if the man brought home a gay guy ... with an extra adult around, we could make it his job to clean the house!

Comment #48: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  11:58 AM

My man Catullus usually addressed his wonderful poems toward specific individuals, poking fun at their foibles or (in the case of “Lesbia”) lamenting that his very heterosexual love wasn’t returned. In this case, he knows that Manlius Torquatus (the groom) likes the boys, but also knows that he’ll have to give them up to make this particular upper-class marriage (to an apparently insecure young bride) work. While homosexuality was more “Permitted” in Roman society than in ours, Catullus isn’t implying that all men are naturally into other men.

So yeah, Klinghoffer, a typically ignorant conservative, is reading a lot into this poem that isn’t there, and then constructing an article around it that earnestly sends the same message as Bruce Heffernan’s classic from The Onion. Well done, Klinghoffer!

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  11:59 AM

Anybody who writes something like that—that nobody will want women when you can have sex with men—is a big, huge fucking closet case. If you’re really straight, that argument makes zero sense.

Comment #50: Ben D.  on  06/30  at  12:04 PM

seeker pontificated: Jokes from within the community about the community which allow an outsider to no longer fear the community?  Valuable.

Yes, us heterosexual white males sure do “fear” the homosexual community. Why, they might possibly comprise as much as 10% of the country and 1% of our legislatures! Gracious! Next thing you know, we’ll all be required to get gay married.
Fortunately, there’s this joke which surely must have originated “within the community” (rather than externally and being embraced by the community to remove any sting) that allows us outsiders to laugh away our fears. How wonderfully valuable!

Come on, seeker, namedrop another homosexual author, or tell another anecdote about your “friends who just happen to be [characteristic]”. That will totally dispel the stench of bigotry wafting around you.

Comment #51: Theaetetus  on  06/30  at  12:05 PM

“You and your guy friends are going off to watch a game, you tell your wife, not letting her know that actually you and your friends have a standing Monday night orgy.

Way to blow our cover, Amanda.”

Yeah. Thanks a lot.

Comment #52: Mark  on  06/30  at  12:08 PM

To me it seems much more like all of this “why should them gays be happy in their gay marriages of men only because of course lesbians don’t really exist you need to have a dick to be really real” is only partially about gay-hating, and a whole fucking bunch of a lot about woman-hating.

Exactly.  Like Kyra said, when men are supposed to “naturally” hold women in contempt, why would anyone be surprised that they would prefer the company of other men to insignificant, shallow creatures like women?

I still think the biggest taboo-breaking social development of the last 30 years is the quiet acknowledgement that men and women can actually be friends and don’t have to be romantically involved.  Once society recognized that men and women could find each other interesting on a non-sexual level, the whole facade started to crumble.

Comment #53: Mnemosyne  on  06/30  at  12:13 PM

Ben, the argument also makes zero sense if you believe that people’s sexual orientation isn’t a choice.

Comment #54: FashionablyEvil  on  06/30  at  12:13 PM

You treat a group of people like silly, shallow, inferior drudges, raise them from childhood to be that way, and it’s not surprising that another group might prefer the romantic company of people they consider equals, who are educated like them and whose opinions they respect.

This.

How sad that we inheritors of the Greco-Roman cultures have only now begun to move away from this concept some 2000 years later. And how sad that people like Klinghoffer not only seem take it for granted that this centuries old concept still prevails, but he wants to keep it that way.

Comment #55: Vir Modestus  on  06/30  at  12:19 PM

Like many panicked wingnuts, he seems to think that legalizing gay marriage=legalizing dudes fucking each other.  What they fail to understand is that dudes can already legally fuck each other.

This is a very important point. Just like abortion becomes a proxy argument about sex and birth control and a host of other things, gay marriage is really just a proxy argument for whether gays should *exist*.

Comment #56: typist  on  06/30  at  12:22 PM

Theaetetus, childish name calling aside do you really believe that a large measure of prejudice against the LGBT communities isn’t driven by irrational fears?  And are you saying so on a thread which has its origins in a cretin who fears that gay marriage will lead to miserable married het men who really want to fuck other men?  And are you taking the position that humour isn’t a tool for some people more comfortable with those they had previously feared?

Seriously, fool, think about this for a second.  Your rationale for calling me a bigot is that I laughed at a joke told to me by some lesbian acquaintances and my boundless love for the witty and engaging work of Alison Bechdel.  God, I’ve seem some pretzel logic in my time but you’re a truckload of Rold Gold, aintcha?  I’d pay good money to see the look on Bechdel’s face—should I ever have the pleasure of meeting her—as I told her, “God, I love your stuff but I never admit it amongst progressives lest they think I hate lesbians”.

To all straight Pandagonians: take formal notice ye hereby!
If you have LGBT friends, if you like the work of any LGBT author and if you dare mention this, you are a gay-hating bigot!  For SHAME! 
So sayeth Theaetetus!  Look on his works and be awed!

Sorry, but I have to go now.  Amongst other things your insightful commentary has revealed to me that I must cancel my acceptance of a dinner invitation from a colleague and her wife.  If I show up it means I hate them, and I don’t want them to think that now, would I?

Comment #57: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  12:25 PM

“There was gay marriage in the Roman Empire?”

At least a few cases, yeah.  We know about them because a moral scold having an apoplectic fit in literary form happened to survive.

“”[...]while the record shows that a heterosexual woman rarely found sexual satisfaction in the company of another woman.”
#1. They kept records of women’s sexual satisfaction in ancient Rome? Yeah right.”

There are some records of lesbian relationships.  Noted by men.  Who thought the whole thing was just silly/unnatural women trying to act like men, in spite of their clear lack of penises.  You know, like if you taught a dog to walk.  Since the “What can lesbians really do for each other?” attitude persists in certain circles even now that oral sex and manual stimulation are about as vanilla as it comes (it was considered a deviation which resulted in ritual impurity in ancient Rome), it’s not really surprising that Roman men’s imagining of lesbian sexual practices began and ended with tribadism.  It’s not like any of its detractors were parked at the women in question’s bedsides, taking notes.

Also, not really shocking that a heterosexual woman wouldn’t find a lot to excite her about a lesbian tryst.  I mean, talk about a tautology.  The men he’s citing as having a huge lust for boys and ditching their wives in their favor?  Would not be considered heterosexual by modern standards.  Jeebus, this is not a difficult piece of logic.

Comment #58: preying mantis  on  06/30  at  12:28 PM

Theaetetus, childish name calling aside… Seriously, fool

You didn’t put it aside for long, huh?

Comment #59: Theaetetus  on  06/30  at  12:30 PM

I still think the biggest taboo-breaking social development of the last 30 years is the quiet acknowledgement that men and women can actually be friends and don’t have to be romantically involved.  Once society recognized that men and women could find each other interesting on a non-sexual level, the whole facade started to crumble.

This, squared, Mnem. 

It applied to gays, too.  To paraphrase Erica Jong, the right has yet to come to grips with the fact that not every gay is trying to get into a straight guy’s pants, and not every straight is a closet case who is one temptation away from teh hot gay sex.  What’s that old saying?  That every thief thinks everybody else will steal?  When these guys dribble themselves terrified about What Gay Evil Will Happen it says more about what they fear in themselves than objective reality, as noted by somebody upthread.

Comment #60: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  12:30 PM

Theaetetus , calling you isn’t a fool isn’t name calling, it’s gentle, understated accuracy.

Comment #61: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  12:31 PM

“You are said to find it hard, Perfumed bridegroom, to give up Smooth-skinned boys, but give them up… We realize you’ve only known Permitted pleasures: husbands, though, Have no right to the same pleasures.”

This sounds an awful lot to me like a “you’re married now, so sex is over forever” joke structure. As in “that same joke from every cut rate stand up comic since time immemorial” Way to miss the joke Klinghoffer.

also, Seeker, what the hell are you doing answering such an obvious troll?

Comment #62: karpad  on  06/30  at  12:37 PM

I don’t think he counts as closeted. He’s flat-out stated that he does not believe straight men exist. I mean, If I said “atheists all secretly believe in God” you would be justified in concluding I was a theist.

Comment #63: MissPrism  on  06/30  at  12:43 PM

also, Seeker, what the hell are you doing answering such an obvious troll?

(Hangs head in shame, can’t make eye contact.  Puts twists hands together behind back.  Draws in the dirt with his toe.  Very, very quiet voice .....)

Sorry, karpad.

Comment #64: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  12:44 PM

The social history behind this piece is clear: once they’ve experienced sex with other men, Catullus tells us, men are unsatisfied with what their new wives provide them.

As a social historian and a classicist let me just say…. YYYAAAAAARRRRGHHHHH!

As Grachus pointed out above, Catullus knew his subjects personally. He wasn’t talking about “men”, he was talking about M. Torquatus. And kind of ‘roasting’ him to boot. It’s really a very funny poem, what with Torquatus’ former catamite being constantly admonished to ‘go play with nuts’, observations that Torquatus doesn’t like ‘farmer’s wives’ and a bit about how Junia is really, really, REALLY going to like the wedding bed (imagine visuals of hands becoming further and further spread apart).

Although in a historic sense the poem is fairly tragic. Lucius Manlius Torquatus, praetor of 50 BCE and the most likely subject for the poem, was killed in the Civil Wars not three years after the marriage. His son, however, did apparently become a great orator like his father as the poem hopes for in its final stanza.

Another interesting note about C.61 is that it may be a version of an original by Sappho translated into Latin and personolized for Torquatus’ wedding.

Comment #65: Sarcastro  on  06/30  at  12:48 PM

Nixx, it is sexist, in no small part because it’s inaccurate.  The truth is that men actually want marriage more than women

I do believe in states that have legalized gay marriage, female marriages are outnumbering male marriages.  So there’s that.

What I’m forced to conclude is that actually, we’re so occupied with finding gender differences we’re missing the big picture: Wives are more desireable than husbands.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  12:50 PM

Also, extra points for “this joke can’t be heterosexist when I, a straight person, retell it, because some of my best friends… I mean my gay brother told it to me.”

It’s a joke about gender normativity and stereotyped relationship expectations in our society.  The homosexual angle is an incidental device used to exaggerate the stereotyped male and female expectations our society holds about relationships.

The joke is not heterosexist, it’s about sexism.  Depending on by whom/when/how/in what context the joke is told it can either be used to exaggerate and explode perceived, but incorrect gender norms, or it can be used to enforce perceived gender norms, reinforcing sexist stereotypes by playing on homosexual stereotypes.

Comment #67: Richard Goblin  on  06/30  at  12:55 PM

This sounds an awful lot to me like a “you’re married now, so sex is over forever” joke structure.

As usual with Catullus (who was doing it in time almost immemorial), there are multiple levels at work. The hoary old joke is one level. It’s also a little heads-up for the blushing bride (Carmina 61 was addressed to the couple as a wedding gift). It’s also an indication that Catullus believes that both partners are responsible for making a successful marriage (an unusual opinion for the times). And yes, it’s also a commentary on Roman social mores.

For example, those “smooth-skinned boys” were most likely slaves of one sort or another—in Roman society it was perfectly acceptable to “top” (if that’s a verb as well as a noun) someone of lower social status. So a poem like this, while meant to gently needle, wasn’t something that would lead to a challenge being issued on the basis of sullied honour.

Comment #68: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  12:56 PM

seeker6079: Theaetetus , calling you isn’t a fool isn’t name calling, it’s gentle, understated accuracy.

I’m sorry if my sarcasm was a bit too deep for you. Allow me to spell things out. Notice that I, unlike you, am able to do it without resorting to name calling to bolster my argument.

You started this thread by talking about laughing about the U-Haul joke.
Your next post was attacking rowmyboat for saying that the joke is heterosexist by saying: I’m heterosexist, and the three lesbians must have been heterosexist, too.  You got me, and them.  I’ll just go back and track them down and we can do something that we really want to do like running over people who look queer.
Very enlightened.

Your post defending the joke was about how valuable humor can be when jokes are from “within the community about the community”. I pointed out, possibly in sarcasm that was slightly too subtle for you, that the U-Haul joke did not come from “within the community” and, being wrong, is not “about the community,” and thus, has no value.
Further, I pointed out that the trite and overused “I heard the joke from a group of lesbians who laughed themselves silly, so therefore the joke can’t be offensive in any possible way and anyone who disagrees is actually insulting them” is, well, trite and overused. Perhaps, to you, this is being an obvious troll. I would politely counter that saying “we can do something that we really want to do like running over people who look queer” is about as far as you can get into trolldom without purchasing a bridge to hide under.

There. Does that make sense to you now?

Now, if you can respond without name calling, please do so. I won’t hold my breath.

Comment #69: Theaetetus  on  06/30  at  01:09 PM

Theaetetus, the only time I have ever heard the UHaul Joke, it was told to me by gays and lesbians. 

As in “you know the Old Joke ...” or “and then Male Partner told me that I must be a lesbian instead of a gay guy because I brought a Uhaul on the second date”.

Sorry, but that’s the truth of what I’ve heard.  Just because you are offended in a “school book” or “abstract reaction” sort of way doesn’t mean that gay couples don’t tease each other with this sort of silliness and stereotyping jokes.  Gay and lesbian people are human afterall!

Then again, I live in a state where Lesbians can get married and hang out in social circles with numerious married same-sex couples, so these jokes may come up more often.

Context is everything here. Read a little more closely next time and you won’t get called a troll.

Comment #70: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  01:36 PM

OMG I laughed until I cried. He’s that guy who wonders why all those homosexuals keep sucking his cock.

Comment #71: Entomologista  on  06/30  at  01:37 PM

Theaetetus :

I made my point earlier.  There’s nothing in your 1209pm post that adds or refutes it in any way, save for the turgid and condescending little lecture about my not getting your insightful “sarcasm”. If somebody doesn’t, say, laugh at one’s joke it does not naturally follow that they have no sense of humour; it may be that the delivery was incompetent.  The problem with your “sarcasm” wasn’t my perception, it was your inability to make a point without making yourself look foolish.  I don’t know what you are like in other threads or in the rest of your life but in this case you fall squarely within Peter daSilva’s maxim that your sharp wit cut yourself.

By the way, where do you get the evidence that the joke isn’t from “within the community”?  Got a cite for that, other than the fact that you say so because it supports your point?  Thought not. 

I know I’m asking a little much (again), but (again) I ask you to think about this:  you described me as having “the stench of bigotry” about me because I enjoyed a joke told to me by some lesbian acquaintances and because I love D2WOF.  Do you really expect such arrant nonsense to be greeting with my nodding as if you’d said something profound?  You made an ass of yourself and I gleefully savaged you for it; no amount of mock patience on your part is going to change that.

btw, you might actually want to bone up on your attribution.  karpad called you a troll, not me.  Whether (s)he’s wrong or right is for others to decide.

Comment #72: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  01:38 PM

Celebrities are invariably celebrity-mad, just as liars always believe liars.

Gore Vidal

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/30  at  01:49 PM

Having a wife vs. a husband seems to help for longevity, Amanda:

This paper studies the respective gender longevity gap in favour of women among singles, utilitarian and altruistic couples. The following hypotheses are derived: (1) the gender longevity gap is smaller within couples than among singles; (2) marriage increases longevity of men but decreases longevity of women; and (3) the gender longevity gap decreases with an increase in wealth. The hypotheses are tested using a complete data set of the Swiss deceased at the age 65+ in 2001 and 2002, with information on the individuals’ age at death and their average earnings over the life cycle.

Comment #74: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/30  at  01:55 PM

Dark Avenger:
I’d love to see a cross-analysis of gender longevity gaps for order of death.  It’s been my admittedly anecdotal experience that far more men fold up and die in short order when their wives die than wives do if their husbands die.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  02:01 PM

while folks have said this better already - this has to be one of the silliest things I’ve read in years . What utter twadle.  I have huge problems re sex (celibate most of my life due to guilt shame classic if i really loved women I wouldn’t want to sleep with them and all that - yes I’m been in Therapy) but this guy is worse off that I am.  I at least know I’m screwed up. He refuses to admit that.

Comment #76: professorfate  on  06/30  at  02:09 PM

These two posts - on Douthat and Klinghoffer - really are taking me back to my high school debate team days. My Douthat phase involved making vast statements about social trends without bothering to cite a shred of actual evidence to back me up, basing my assertions only on the “common sense” of my own personal experience. It was that stage of egocentricity in which I assumed that everything, being about me anyway, could be explained completely by my observations about my life. Nevermind the social science literature that might exist to contradict my theories; if it made sense to me then by my ego-centric definition it made sense.

During my Klinghoffer phase, I thought that if I just quoted an important-sounding person who said something that could conceivably support my argument, I was making a sound argument. So long as the author’s statement agreed (or could be conceivably twisted to agree) with my argument, there was no need to think about historical or social context. It was a thin veneer of obfuscation over the original ego-centricity of my Douthat years, since my inability to think about context was based on placing myself and my life and my concerns at the center of every context.

Sadly, both of these strategies tended to be winners for me at both the state and national level, which says something very sad about the judges I came across in high school speech and debate (though I imagine if I had done policy debate that may have been a very different kettle of fish). In retrospect, I think the way in which I was encouraged to engage these issues abstractly, as if they weren’t real issues about real people, discouraged empathy and encouraged me to continue seeing myself as the center of the universe.

Which is to say, thank the gods for college and learning that life is not, in fact, all about me, me me!!!!1!! There is no doubt in my mind that learning you are not the center of the universe can dramatically improve your sex life (or, at least, your partner’s sex life) as well.

Comment #77: Dymphna  on  06/30  at  02:12 PM

“Wives are more desireable than husbands.”

As a husband, I would say that this is true. smile

Comment #78: Mark  on  06/30  at  02:21 PM

Husbands have to give up lots of things when they get married, not just “smooth-skinned boys”.  Maybe Callutus was warning that groom that his wife wouldn’t approve of him being with “smooth-skinned boys”.  Since men also have to give up peeing with the bathroom door open when they get married, does that mean we should outlaw peeing with the door open?

Comment #79: bananacat  on  06/30  at  02:30 PM

Catgirl,  you may get us to put the seat down, but we’ll NEVER close the door!!

Comment #80: Carmicus  on  06/30  at  02:33 PM

As Ms Kate says, “Context is everything here. Read a little more closely next time…”

Which was my original point, when I called out Nixxx, the original joke teller in this thread not seeker.  Though seeker seemed to take that to assume that anyone telling the joke would automatically be doing bad things, and therefore, since he’s laughed at the joke before, he’s bad.

As we say around here, if it’s not about you, then it’s not about you.

Comment #81: rowmyboat  on  06/30  at  02:36 PM

I’m surprised anyone laughed at the U-haul joke, since it’s so hoary.  But again, I think that the joke doesn’t actually speak to women’s greater commitment to committing.  It just shows that wives are more of a value-add to a home than husbands.

Comment #82: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/30  at  02:41 PM

Okay, chalk up another one for “when I say ‘threat to marriage’ I mean ‘threat to my marriage’”—conservatives who believe gay marriage will undermine the institution of marriage because they personally would rather be in a gay marriage if it were available, but their religion and/or ideology says they’re not supposed to.

I think it’s the flip side of the lack of empathy, how prominent conservatives are never concerned with a problem until it affects them or their close friends or family. The corollary is that if it does affect them, then by definition it must affect everybody, because people who think differently are always misguided and wrong.

Comment #83: Redshift  on  06/30  at  02:42 PM

Carmicus, why do you hate marriage so much?

Actually, even though I’m a woman, I always leave the door open.  Only one guy has ever complained about it, even though it was in my own apartment after we had just had sex and he had seen everything there is to see.

Comment #84: bananacat  on  06/30  at  02:43 PM

I tell this joke because I would think it is telling in more ways then one. Some men heterosexual or homosexual will always prefer to be single where women for the most part are the ones that want marriage. This of course is not always true, but generally I would say it is.

Well, you’re wrong, as others have pointed out.  TV and movies aren’t real.  I’ve been having casual, long-term, non-monogamous hook-ups since I was 15 and there was only one time when I have ever wanted something more out of the relationship (the guy did, too, and we tried the bf-gf thing for awhile but it didn’t work out).  However, at least three other men have wanted marriage and that always scared me away.  I mean, we weren’t even a couple and they knew that, and they still wanted to get married.

When other women want to rush into a marriage, maybe it’s because they can expect to earn only 80% of what men make in their career, and they also assume that they will be expected to stop working for at least a few years when they have kids, because they’ve been taught that childcare is mostly their responsibility.  Is it any surprise that they would want to marry someone for financial support?

Comment #85: bananacat  on  06/30  at  02:52 PM

Since the “What can lesbians really do for each other?” attitude persists in certain circles even now that oral sex and manual stimulation are about as vanilla as it comes

Whenever I hear someone ask this, I assume they don’t know how women have orgasms, and feel sorry for them or their female partners.

Also, not really shocking that a heterosexual woman wouldn’t find a lot to excite her about a lesbian tryst.  I mean, talk about a tautology.  The men he’s citing as having a huge lust for boys and ditching their wives in their favor?  Would not be considered heterosexual by modern standards. Jeebus, this is not a difficult piece of logic.

It makes sense if you buy into the “it’s only gay if you’re being penetrated” mentality. There are two kinds of people in the world: straight men, who get sexual satisfaction from putting their penises in things, and women/gay men/other not-humans, who get sexual satisfaction from having penises inside them. Penises, not anything else. Straight men can be sexually satisfied by putting their penises in vaginas, male assholes, female assholes, or holes in the wall, and there’s no real difference between any of those orifices as far as they and their cocks are concerned. Women can’t get sexual satisfaction from anything but penises, so lesbians can’t exist because women can’t fuck each other. Gay men are just like women because they like having penises inside them. Also, sexual satisfaction for the people being penetrated is simply defined by having had penises inside them; it has nothing to do with the stimulation of clitorises or prostates.

Comment #86: junk science  on  06/30  at  02:59 PM

Is it any surprise that they would want to marry someone for financial support?

Or, maybe, because they have been constantly bombarded with the message that the pinacle of their existance is marriage and children?

Comment #87: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  03:04 PM

Ms. Kate, I’m available.  And my house is really clean.

Comment #88: jackspratt  on  06/30  at  03:04 PM

It’s been my admittedly anecdotal experience that far more men fold up and die in short order when their wives die

Yes, that was my fear that something of this sort would happen when Mother Avenger died over a decade ago. After suffering through various girlfriends that Professor Avenger had, he met a nice woman and got married, I felt like I could relax cause she’s there to take care of him(emotionally).

I think it also works the other way, as I have a cousin who became a widow in her early ‘60s and ended up meeting and marrying a real nice guy, and I think she’s both physically and mentally healthier than if she’d stayed single.

i really loved women I wouldn’t want to sleep with them and all that -

That’s like the old Groucho Marx line, “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member”.

Comment #89: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/30  at  03:14 PM

“It makes sense if you buy into the “it’s only gay if you’re being penetrated” mentality.”

It makes sense until you run into the specified-heterosexual woman part.  If you’re operating under the straight dudes/everyone else dichotomy, lesbians vanish.  If you’re recognizing that there are lesbians at the same time you’re trying to assert that men who actively prefer fucking other men to fucking women are still straight, because they’re the penetrative partner, you just make a whacking great mess out of everything.  Of course, it’s still more coherent than Douthat’s most recent howl at the unfeeling prison that is not having you parents pick your spouse out for you, so I guess there’s that in the author’s favor.

Comment #90: preying mantis  on  06/30  at  03:40 PM

I like to stimulate this meaningless hulk of flesh that some would call a ‘body’. It pleasures my mind, and therefore gives reason for the physical existence of my slowly rotting self. Now if I could alter my mind to accept things society has programmed me to reject, that would open access to paradise.

Who’s up for a cup of coffee?

Comment #91: MarkusR  on  06/30  at  03:57 PM

This is all extra specially insulting to women because women support gay marriage and gay rights in general by a few percentage points more than men do, just as we tend to vote Democratic and support other socially liberal causes slightly but measurably more than men do. So, this whole “gays hurt women” thing is mainly sexist and homophobic in all the ways already discussed, of course, but additionally because he’s telling women how dumb we are for supporting policies that hurt us: as a demographic, we think we want marriage equality, but we are just dupes and pawns of Big Homosexual, or whatever. It’s an awful lot like the eternally-springing attempts to convince black voters that they’re only foolishly hurting themselves by voting for Democrats.

Comment #92: sophonisba  on  06/30  at  04:11 PM

Seriously, sophonisba, I have heard almost exactly the attitude you describe from a conservative opponent at a school board meeting years ago, when we were trying to keep the boy scouts from recruiting in our public schools. The gentleman in question followed me into an alley, questioned me on my marital status (in the assumption, I guess, that if I am married that means I couldn’t possibly fuck women too), and upon concluding that I wasn’t “one of them” asked me in all seriousness why I had allowed myself to be manipulated by the Homosexual Agenda.

Comment #93: Dymphna  on  06/30  at  04:23 PM

Dymphna:
I’m sure the fact that he wanted the conversation to take place in an alley was purely coincidental.  I’m also sure that if the political positions were reversed and a male supporter of the anti-recruitment drive had followed a female opponent and done that you would not have heard the end of complaints about the scary and intimidating tactics of liberals.

Comment #94: seeker6079  on  06/30  at  04:29 PM

If you’re operating under the straight dudes/everyone else dichotomy, lesbians vanish.  If you’re recognizing that there are lesbians at the same time you’re trying to assert that men who actively prefer fucking other men to fucking women are still straight, because they’re the penetrative partner, you just make a whacking great mess out of everything.

Exactly. So just ignore lesbians, and the argument makes sense. Or decide that there are some women silly and frivolous enough to enjoy playing at sex with other women, until they grow up and/or find a man to dick some sense into them.

Comment #95: junk science  on  06/30  at  04:36 PM

Hello, projection!

Comment #96: RMJ  on  06/30  at  04:42 PM

“So just ignore lesbians, and the argument makes sense.”

Ignoring lesbians in an argument that feels the need to distinguish heterosexual women from non-heterosexual women is like trying to ignore the communism in the Smurfs when they insist on putting the dude in charge in a red hat and a beard.

Comment #97: preying mantis  on  06/30  at  04:43 PM

“There was gay marriage in the Roman Empire?”

Hey, the Romans made horses into Senators.  America has only done half as well…

Comment #98: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/30  at  04:54 PM

Seeker - yeah, the weirdest part was that I answered his stupid questions.

Wouldn’t you have to ignore bisexual women as well to make the argument make sense? Not trying to split hairs here, just thinking about how I’d feel if my husband + every other man in the world decided they’d rather fuck each other than fuck me. That would only halve my prospects.

I think what you have to ignore is a) the idea of same-sex female couples getting married and b) the idea that women could have perfectly fulfilling and happy lives without having men to marry.

Comment #99: Dymphna  on  06/30  at  05:00 PM

So, this whole “gays hurt women” thing is mainly sexist and homophobic in all the ways already discussed, of course, but additionally because he’s telling women how dumb we are for supporting policies that hurt us: as a demographic, we think we want marriage equality, but we are just dupes and pawns of Big Homosexual, or whatever.

It only gets stupider when you consider that the entire argument is predicated upon the notion that getting married and having kids with a male overlord is the most important and bestest ever thing a woman could possibly do, and is, therefore, absolutely in her best interest (whether women think so or not)!

Comment #100: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  05:02 PM

BTW, is it just me, or was Christianity the one thing that destroyed the Roman Empire?

Comment #101: Ms Kate  on  06/30  at  05:04 PM

preying mantis, I’m specifically working with this line:

At the risk of getting too explicit, I leave it the reader’s basic grasp of anatomy to figure out why in ancient Rome a man who found pleasure in a woman, could also find pleasure in a man, while the record shows that a heterosexual woman rarely found sexual satisfaction in the company of another woman.

A man who likes fucking women, i.e., a straight man, could just as easily like fucking men up the ass, because at the end of the day sex for straight men is just putting your dick in a hole. (Granted, he said “a man,” not “a heterosexual man,” but I think heterosexual is implied by the “pleasure in a woman” part. Bisexuals are too subtle for this argument.) Similarly, sex for women (and “real” gay men, in most versions of this argument) means having a dick inside you. I think he specifies heterosexual women because he doesn’t want to look like he’s too stupid to know lesbians exist, but they just sort of confuse him because he honestly doesn’t know how women give each other orgasms. That bullshit about historical records aside, he takes it as a given that we should all know “anatomy” would make it physically impossible for a woman to get off with another woman, not because she’s straight, but because no one can get off without the presence of a dick.

Comment #102: junk science  on  06/30  at  05:09 PM

Douhat also has the schtick of painting himself as the Golden Mean; everybody else is one of two (2) polarized, irrational, shouty positions on an issue, so that Douhat can stroll in and say “Hey, why haven’t you guys thought of this perfectly reasonable compromise?” It’s like he’s Socrates in his fantasy life.

Comment #103: mythago  on  06/30  at  05:12 PM

Ignoring the existence of lesbians is also an integral part of ignoring female sexual pleasure in general:

If we can logically prove that sexually satisfied women are a myth outside of the benefiscent presence of cock, then the prsence of cock is all we need postulate in order to deduce female sexual satisfaction.

In fact the judicious application of the sanctified schlong can be therefore said to mandate female pleasure; at which all those petty feminist concerns about, y’know, rape and unwanted pregnancy an’ shit just happily melt away…

Thinks I’m being unnecessarily hyperbolic? Google “corrective rape”.

Comment #104: MarinaS  on  06/30  at  05:15 PM

It’s very common for homophobes to forget about lesbians, for many reasons.  First, there’s the simple assumption that male is the default so even “homosexual” means male homosexual unless otherwise specified.  Second, I think there’s a big myth that women who are lesbians or bisexual are just doing it to please guys.  Because, of course, sex is only about guys and their enjoyment of it.  If there’s no guy there to watch and be pleased by it, it just doesn’t count as sex.  Also, homophobes tend to be misogynist so they think that lesbians, like all women, are just silly, frivolous, and easily influenced by others, and their relationships with other women are just silly little games and not real.  A lot of men, even relatively liberal ones, assume that lesbians will have sex with them if they can just manage to “score” or “get lucky” or just go through the proper mating ritual of buying a dinner and opening a car door.  If the assumption is that no women, even straight ones, actually want to have sex with men, then lesbians are just more of a challenge to them.

Comment #105: bananacat  on  06/30  at  05:18 PM

BTW, is it just me, or was Christianity the one thing that destroyed the Roman Empire?

Heh, funnily enough it was probably immigration that really did it…

Comment #106: MarinaS  on  06/30  at  05:19 PM

To try to put this a little more coherently: If a straight man could just close his eyes and pretend a man’s asshole were a woman’s vagina, why couldn’t a straight woman close her eyes and pretend the woman giving her head were a man? Answer: there’s no such thing as performing oral sex on women, and if there is, women don’t get off on it.

And what TheLady and catgirl said.

Comment #107: junk science  on  06/30  at  05:25 PM

It’s like he’s Socrates in his fantasy life.

If Socrates had been straight and married at a relatively young age ... and constantly tempted by a promiscuous Britney Spears look-alike living outside Athens in a trailer with her 5 kids.

Amazingly, though, Douthat look like the height of sophistication when it comes to issues of sexuality in comparison to David Klinghoffer. Reading through his posts (and the hilarious comments), I seriously wonder if the man has ever seen or touched a real vulva.

Comment #108: Gracchus.  on  06/30  at  05:28 PM

Amazingly, though, Douthat look like the height of sophistication when it comes to issues of sexuality in comparison to David Klinghoffer. Reading through his posts (and the hilarious comments), I seriously wonder if the man has ever seen or touched a real vulva.

It’s a pity we have decided to eschew sexist insults, ‘cos you know what sort of photo link this straight line calls for…

Comment #109: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/30  at  05:49 PM

It’s kinda sorta funny really….

The more forbidden something is the more attractive it is.  The more attractive it is the more power it takes to avoid it.  If something is UberMegaForbidden, the only power that can avoid it GOD.  However, the more you preach against it the more forbidden it becomes and the more GODLY you have to become.  It’s sort of a race between sainthood and buggery.  No?

Comment #110: Magis  on  06/30  at  06:49 PM

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: there are sectors of RightWingWorld in which homosociality is so pervasive (and so much of an ordiering principle) and in which the devaluation of womanhood is so pronounced, that it’s got to look to the Precinct Locals as though out-and-out high-relief gayness is the only chance any man has of being able to combine sex with love.  (Which might be why it’s avidly proscribed.)

IOW, what Kyra said.

You and your guy friends are going off to watch a game, you tell your wife, not letting her know that actually you and your friends have a standing Monday night orgy.

Well, that’s only reasonable.  I mean, how is a standing Monday night orgy not “sports”?

Comment #111: bekabot  on  06/30  at  08:39 PM

A man who likes fucking women, i.e., a straight man, could just as easily like fucking men up the ass, because at the end of the day sex for straight men is just putting your dick in a hole

Ummm, love ya, but no, it’s not.

Comment #112: Magis  on  06/30  at  11:16 PM

I mean, how is a standing Monday night orgy not “sports”?

I mean, “Are you ready for some football!?” is CLEARLY a euphemism.

Comment #113: FashionablyEvil  on  06/30  at  11:20 PM

Ummm, love ya, but no, it’s not.

Well, of course not. I wasn’t giving my own opinion, just trying to get inside the closeted Republican asshole mind. I also know women can give each other orgasms.

Comment #114: junk science  on  07/01  at  12:05 AM

just trying to get inside the closeted Republican asshole mind.

Ohhhh, ick.  Take lots of protective gear and and skin ointments and stuff.  Maybe a couple of barf bags.

Comment #115: Magis  on  07/01  at  10:31 AM

ms kate -

re: the demise of the Roman Empire.

It was basically a perfect storm of environmental catastrophe (overfarming the land), medical catastrophe (plague), elite indifference to public service (no taxes for anything but defense! let’s pay Germanic mercenaries to guard the borders against their own people!), militarism (enrich the army, starve the rest), and astonishingly bad leadership—all happening in the mid-3rd century. Western Civ textbooks call this the Third Century Crisis.

Germanic migrations and the raids of the Huns were just a mopping up of the 3rd-century mess.

And remember it was only the western half of the Empire that failed. The Greek-speaking eastern half went on for another millenium.

The Church had little to do with it, although it did absorb a lot of educated, talented men who might have otherwise served the public interest. Successful kings of the post-Roman era in the Latin West would co-opt the administrative skills of leading clergy for their own purposes.

Comment #116: wapsie  on  07/01  at  12:10 PM

Ben D.:

Anybody who writes something like that—that nobody will want women when you can have sex with men—is a big, huge fucking closet case. If you’re really straight, that argument makes zero sense.

No, it does make sense, or at least it can.

Going back to Amanda’s post on Mark Sanford, lok at it this way: if we discount the value of love and affection, what’s left is a likely—- and in this mindset, guaranteed—- sexual partner. And since these peple are not closeted but are misogynists, they can’t see anyone marrying a woman if they can get a man as a guaranteed sex partner, not because sex with men is s great but because spending time with women is so awful.

And so, pace FashionablyEvil, it’s not about sexual orientation, which is a posteriori anyway (no pun intended, really now, people), it’s about being preferentially homosocial and nt caring whom you have sex with.

Ms. Kate:

Then again, I live in a state where Lesbians can get married and hang out in social circles with numerious married same-sex couples, so these jokes may come up more often.

Legally married? I thought you were in Ohio.

Not that you have to tell me which state you do live in, of course.

catgirl:

Actually, even though I’m a woman, I always leave the door open.  Only one guy has ever complained about it, even though it was in my own apartment after we had just had sex and he had seen everything there is to see.

I’ve done that in every relationship I’ve been in. We close it now because there’s an 11-year-old, but when she goes to her father’s over the summer ...

Comment #117: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/02  at  12:18 PM
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