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The broken ethics of the evangelical economy

EconomyFundiesReligion

Via Ezra comes this interesting angle on a lawsuit against “artist” Thomas Kinkade that may have larger implications for the subculture I like to call the evangelical economy.  There’s a lot of complications in the Kinkade empire, but the lawsuit in question is over the predatory relationship Kinkade had with his dealers, who signed onto the unfair deal on the incorrect assumption that Kinkade’s art was going to keep rising in value.  Classic bubble speculation issues—-when something has a meteoric rise in value, one should assume that it’s peaking, not that it’s going to continue exploding in value.  There are, after all, only so many Christians with horrible taste that want art to reflect their so-called values instead of their taste to buy paintings, but for some reason, when the bubble mentality kicks in, people forget that there is such a thing as market saturation.

Kinkade runs his company with the same no-ethics attitude embodied by Amway.  Which is to say he makes money by getting people to buy products they can’t sell and can’t return. The only difference is that he’s not using a pyramid scheme.

Kinkade forced the dealers to buy expensive inventory which simply didn’t sell, and refused to accept returns unless they were accompanied by orders for three times as much art as was being returned.

However, they signed up, and there’s not much protection for them, right?  Well, the Ninth Circuit Court upheld a decision awarding two gallery owners $2.1 million, in no small part because Kinkade exploited their religious faith to get them to agree to this exploitative relationship. 

In their lawsuit, Hazlewood and Spinello, former San Ramon residents who operated their art galleries in Virginia and were married at the time, said the company had exploited their faith to reel them in.

At a weeklong presentation for prospective Kinkade Signature Gallery owners, company executives “said they would support us as partners in spreading the light,” Spinello said at the time of the arbitration award. “They said their business was blessed.”

In its February 2006 decision, the arbitration panel said Kinkade and other company officials used terms like “partner,” “trust,” “Christian” and “God” to create “a certain religious environment designed to instill a special relationship of trust” with the couple.

What the company didn’t tell them, said their attorney, was that they would have to sell Kinkade’s works at minimum retail prices while the artist undercut them with discount sales, some of which he made himself on cable television.

Felix Salmon is concerned that this kind of ruling implies that Christians are more trustworthy than other people.  I doubt it’ll have any kind of far-reaching effects like that, because it seems to mostly be a boring old contract dispute, and the religion thing is just a minor issue.  But if I’m wrong, and the religion thing matters, then this won’t imply that Christians are more trustworthy. If anything, it exposes how businesses that use evangelical Christians as their customer base exploit that faith to get them into fucked-up financial situations. I’m thinking quite specifically of Amway, who took full advantage of the Republican party’s soft hand both with fundamentalists and with people who run pyramid schemes to run rampant over the past decade, and who needs to be squashed out of existence completely.

On this blog and in right wing watch circles in general, we spend a lot of time tracking the religious right’s assault on human rights and secular democracy.  But it’s also important to think about how they financially exploit their own followers, who are lured in with Jesus and fetuses and fears of dudes kissing, and told to open their wallets.  You can usually tell what’s going on with the wingnuts by what they claim The Left is doing, and so it’s not for nothing that there are constant, baseless claims that feminists are in some baby-killing money-making conspiracy—-classic projection, a way to push their own angst about the way they really do financially exploit the everyday follower.  As this Kinkade lawsuit shows, the exploitation is endemic, and reaches way past just the televangelist begging.  Amway is the most obvious example of this problem, since they have meetings that ape evangelical prayer groups, and then use people’s vulnerable state and the group dynamics of the situation to strong-arm people into becoming Amyway salespeople, which means, for most of them, going into debt buying a bunch of products they can’t sell.  Much like Kinkade did to these dealers.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this sort of thing is all over the evangelical community, because they do have their own economy of Jesus gear and half-baked entrepreneurial projects.  In the past, I tended to think most of the Jesus gear stuff, from Jesus T-shirts to Christian rock, was pretty harmless, but now I’m not so sure.  All these products need distributors, and since most of them rely heavily on word-of-mouth and church-based marketing, there’s a lot of room for exploitation there.  It’d be interesting to find out how many other Jesus-y companies are trying to separate believers from their cash in ways other than simply making products that people want and selling them.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:35 PM • (95) Comments

I’ve been telling people for years that their WWJD bracelets really meant “What Would Judas Do?” I had inside info through religious business friends about how the culture of shearing the sheep went down every avenue, right through the religious tchochkes sold. I didn’t and don’t care to educate them, snark being enough for me.

Comment #1: mndean  on  06/21  at  05:52 PM

The evangelical righties have no nose for irony, it seems.  As I recall, the one time their Lord and Savior got violently pissed off was when he threw such financial predators out of his Father’s temple.  But I guess following Jesus’s example is less important than maintaining acceptable levels of fear and loathing of queers, niggers, and libruls.  What a bunch of assholes.

Comment #2: Sam Holloway  on  06/21  at  06:01 PM

All these products need distributors, and since most of them rely heavily on word-of-mouth and church-based marketing, there’s a lot of room for exploitation there.  It’d be interesting to find out how many other Jesus-y companies are trying to separate believers from their cash in ways other than simply making products that people want and selling them.

The “gospel of abundance” (or prosperity gospel, or gospel of wealth) requires True Believers to spend money as a sign of faith. Greasing the wheels, so to speak. So, those products are also a visual sign of who is Faithful.

Comment #3: La Lubu  on  06/21  at  06:13 PM

Lenny Bruce’s take:

“I know in my heart, by pure logic, that any man who claims to be a leader of the Church is a hustler if he has two suits in a world in which most people have none.”

the <strike>one</strike> second time their Lord and Savior got violently pissed off was when he threw such financial predators out of his Father’s temple.

As Son’o God said, “Remember what I did to that fig tree!”

You’d think they’d learn from examples like this one:

Baptist Foundation of Arizona (BFA) was a Southern Baptist charity whose fraudulent behavior led to the largest collapse of a religious financial institution in U.S. history.[1] The BFA was associated with the Arizona Southern Baptist Convention, which was affiliated with the national organization. When the BFA filed for bankruptcy in 1999, it had $530 million in liabilities as compared to a reported $70 million in assets.[2]

and of course, there was a higher level of financial flummery than Kinkade’s scheme:

Maximum Value Performance Note - The BFA sold certificates of deposit that were non-refundable during the life of the CD. MVPNs were marketed with the notion that they received a higher than average yield and that part of the investment’s return was used for God’s mission. MVPNs were “fraudulently represented ... as one which could be redeemed at any time, although with an interest penalty.”[7] Elder law attorney Leas wondered why BFA would sell the elderly, “an investment that would tie up more than two-thirds of their non-residential assets in an investment that would be unavailable for five years!”[7]

Comment #4: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/21  at  06:30 PM

Legally, the issue here is probably promissory and equitable estoppel; if you induce reliance by your and actions an expectation of exceptionally good faith dealing, you may be held to that standard.  The issue is not whether Christians are held categorically to a higher standard, but rather whether the standard that you yourself lay down in your promises and representations can be used to bind you.  I am glad that the answer is yes.

Re: Amway, there is no doubt that the culture has become explicitly evangelical.  Western Michigan is the home of the U.S. Dutch Reformed Church and Amway’s founding families are aggressive advocates of that Calvinist tradition and of conservative politics in their corporate culture.  More evangelical than that, however, is the Britt organization/downline of sales reps, whose leader has urged the men (who usually lead presentations, not their wives) to assert their role as “spiritual heads of their houses.” 

Briefly I was involved with Amway on the suggestion of a fellow attorney; I learned (but did not confirm) that there had never been a Jewish “Direct” (“made man”, gender-emphasized) in the history of Amway as of 1995, and that my Direct was trying to become the first. The culture clash between my largely Jewish and liberal fellow reps from Maryland’s suburbs under my Direct and the evangelical culture of the Britt organization was palpable.  It was a big deal when Britt “permitted” a Jewish religious service - on Sunday - alongside the massive evangelical Christian ones at a meeting in Richmond (Catholics and Orthodox Christians, I guess, seeking out the local cathedral.)

I have heard a lot about the relationship between Mormon culture and multi-level marketing and that many network marketing companies are headquartered in metropolitan Salt Lake City, but that’s all I have heard.

Comment #5: Bruce Godfrey  on  06/21  at  06:30 PM

As I recall, the one time their Lord and Savior got violently pissed off was when he threw such financial predators out of his Father’s temple.

It’s even better than that. That event is the only time in the Bible Jesus uses violence against anyone. If we were to literally follow Jesus’ example, we would whip and beat down every lobbyist, corporate shill, and corporate rep wearing a crucifix tie-pin until they were bleeding and crawling.

Evangelical culture has, in my lifetime, always had an undercurrent of banal capitalism. It’s most noticeable in all of the uncute co-option of secular ads and concepts. The first time I saw a t-shirt with Coke’s old slogan transformed into “God: He’s the Real Thing,” I realised that I was looking at a joke that could only be laughed at if you were forced to pretend it was funny. The tendency to ape whatever the outside world is doing and sell it at a profit wasn’t a quirk, but a strategy. God becomes a name brand and allegience to the brand is no different than favoring a particular detergent.

http://www.newser.com/story/12394/big-churches-do-bigger-business.html

It’s a good thing the U.S. ran out of homeless people. Now we have all this money for so many better things.

Comment #6: No One of Consequence  on  06/21  at  07:01 PM

That event is the only time in the Bible Jesus uses violence against anyone.

Except, arguably, pigs and fig trees.

Comment #7: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/21  at  07:21 PM

One little quibble…I don’t think it’s worth worrying about saying that “Christians are more trustworthy”, because that’s ALREADY the public perception. Blaming judges for reacting as such is silly.

Having seen Amway nice up close and personal (wasn’t involved myself), there really is very strong Calvinistic theme behind the whole thing. Success is proof that you’re a good “God-fearing” individual..so even if you don’t have success, it’s still your social obligation to ACT like you do. “Fake it until you Make it” is the motto. If you ACT like you’re a success….or in touch with “God”, eventually you will be.

What I highly suspect is that this rolls over into their religious belief as well. With them not feeling a fucking thing, thinking that they just have to TRY harder. If you ask me, this is the root of their crusades against abortion and gay marriage. Those issues are ways to publicly and emotionally “Try Harder” without impacting their own pocketbook. But trying harder doesn’t work, they feel more isolated, they get more extreme.

My personal opinion is that this right here..this Amway/neo-Calvinistic outlook is THE poison in America over the last 20 years or so. Everything stems from this one PoV.

Comment #8: Karmakin  on  06/21  at  07:25 PM

William Burroughs said it pretty well, “when you’re dealing with a Christian, get it in writing, cause he’s got the Lord on his side to fuck you on the deal”

Comment #9: ilduclo  on  06/21  at  07:29 PM

it’s always struck me that here in South Carolina it’s the poorest, most downtrodden neighborhoods that have by far the most churches per capita

far more than seems necessary for spiritual solace or community-building

it’s hard not to see them as Marx would: as opiates and parasites

Comment #10: wapsie  on  06/21  at  07:32 PM

I do not know about Thomas Kinkade, but with respect, you are wrong about Amway.

I do not find the products particularly difficult to sell because they are very high quality and offered at a fair price.  Generally I just give people a few samples and let them try them out.  Some elect to start buying them through me and some don’t.  I don’t pressure people because I’d rather lose a customer than a friend.

All Amway products come with a full satisfaction guarantee.  If you do not like them for any reason, you just put them back in the box, attach the prepaid return shipping label from the original packing list, and drop them off at the nearest post office or UPS store.  I’ve done this any number of times and always received a prompt refund with no hassle.

My experience is that the complaints people have about Amway are nearly always legitimate, and I have heard some real horror stories.  In every case, however, when I probed deeper, I found that the complaint was not exactly about the Amway company, but rather about some particular distributor or distributor organization.

Amway is now—finally—moving to strongly halt some of the abuses of the past.  They have put in place an accreditation process for distributor organizations.  Whether or not a particular organization passes the accreditation criteria has a direct and significant impact on their income.  In particular, any form of pressure to accept any particular set of religious practices or beliefs is expressly prohibited.

My understanding is that there are currently twenty-six distributor organizations, of which twelve so far have been accredited, including the one to which I now belong. 

Like Bruce, I too was briefly a member of the Britt organization.  The evangelical tone of the meetings was very uncomfortable for me, and I worried that if I had to be “like that”, there was no way I could ever be successful.  It’s a pleasure now to be a member of an organization which runs their business with integrity and without regard to anyone’s religious preferences or lack thereof.

Comment #11: Kirk Strong  on  06/21  at  07:33 PM

The most openly religious customer my company has had was an international adoption agency who was always behind in paying their bills and was eventually closed down by the state of Minnesota.

You can read the details here: http://www.citypages.com/2007-05-23/news/the-adoption-scam/

My experience has been that people who are in-your-face about being Christian are some of the biggest scammers around. Either they’re faking their religion, or they figure that they’re favored by God no matter what they do so it’s OK for them to rip you off.

Comment #12: Norsecats  on  06/21  at  07:39 PM

Some might say it’s a short path to take from conning people about an omniscient creator to conning people out of their cash.

Of course, some people would also say that Christianity itself is nothing more than a turn of the century death cult that worships a reverse zombie and practices ritual cannibalism.  But those people tend to be careful about who they share their opinions with.

Comment #13: Zed  on  06/21  at  07:51 PM

Awesome, Amway spam.  Should have guessed.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  08:30 PM

To no one’s big surprise, that’s the only comment Kirk Strong has ever made here.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/21  at  08:32 PM

Kinkade has been sued by dealers going back a long way. There was, iirc, a big thing about him giving people “exclusive” territories and then signing up another dealer just down the road.

But I think we’ll have to see if this one gets appealed ny further. The current majority on the supreme court has, as far as I can tell, never seen a predatory business contract they didn’t like.

Comment #16: paul  on  06/21  at  09:12 PM

Oops. One other thing: Obviously religiosity is a great way to suck in other people with religious beliefs, but imagine how it must be for Kinkade or any of the other christian-industrial tycoons: If you’ve already got a self-promoting ego the size of golgotha, think how much more unbridled self-confidence and lack of conscience you’ll have if you believe that you’re working for god…

Comment #17: paul  on  06/21  at  09:16 PM

I’ve got 15+ years of experience with clients (artists & labels) in the Christian industry.  They are, as a rule, the most vile, greedy, money-grubbing hypocritical group of individuals I’ve ever dealt with.  If there is a way to screw someone over, they’ll do it and then turn around and expect you to love it because “they’re doin’ the Lords work.”

To put it perspective, I’ve (in the past) had sex workers and convicted felons as clients.  By-and-large I’ve found they’re more honest than those in the Christian Industry.

Comment #18: MosesZD  on  06/21  at  09:47 PM

My husband’s store has a large selection of religious tchochkes and Christian books and literature, and these departments also have the highest percentage of “shrink”.  I should be fair, the books are more subject to “soft shrink” where they never really existed and someone hasn’t done the math right.  The bracelets and keychains and other small theftable items are the ones getting hit hardest by hard shrink.  Still, the “soft shrink” phenomenon has the distinct aroma of embezzlement about it, and I hold out the hope that someone in the ultra-fundamentalist corporate headquarters catches on.  It would be nice if the poop stopped rolling downhill from them onto the hapless and underpaid employees.

Comment #19: Godless Heathen  on  06/21  at  10:21 PM

it’s hard not to see them as Marx would: as opiates and parasites—

Actually, Marx wasn’t using opiate as a derogatory term when he referred to religion—recall that opiates were the only real response to serious pain available in his time. Given the sheer desperation of the lives of the poor, solace in religion was a blessing.

I doubt he would have been a fan of fundies of today, but the fact that fundamentalism and evangelicalism (two different things) straddle the poor and upper-middle classes would have, I think, made his take on things complex. If I can speak for a long-dead white guy.

Comment #20: No One of Consequence  on  06/21  at  10:47 PM

The Creation Museum in Kentucky is probably the most ludicrous example of hucksters ripping off the Christian rubes. It’s clear that the people behind the museum don’t believe any of that crap about dinosaurs on the ark. They use dinosaurs as bait for kids. There were at least three cub scout troops there when I passed through. Talk about sick. If they’re serious about anything it’s about how much they hate and fear the modern world.  If there’s a real message, that’s it. That and the oh so many ways they would like to part the suckers from their money.

Comment #21: chuckling  on  06/21  at  11:05 PM

A couple of years ago, I briefly worked as a telemarketer for Christian merchandise company.  We had to cold call churches and get them to agree to receive a large box of tee shirts, bookmarks, posters, etc., which they then had to sell or go through an intentionally complex return process to keep from being charged.  We were instructed to repeat, “no financial risk to you,” but never to say, “free,” because that would make it fraud.  It was a nasty, nasty business.  Easily the worst job I’ve ever had.  What made it worse was that I usually found myself on the phone with a preacher, which means he was one of two types of people- either so genuinely nice and sincere that I felt terribly guilty trying to scam him, or a much slicker talker than me.  When I quit after about three weeks, I told them I couldn’t do the job because it was against my religion.  If they’d inquired further, I would have been honest that I’m an atheist, but of course that was as far as it went.

Comment #22: Dustin L  on  06/21  at  11:28 PM

it’s always struck me that here in South Carolina it’s the poorest, most downtrodden neighborhoods that have by far the most churches per capita

far more than seems necessary for spiritual solace or community-building

it’s hard not to see them as Marx would: as opiates and parasites
wapsie on 06/21 at 06:32 PM


There was just an article in the Chicago Trib(?) or SunTimes about how the many storefront churches may have to be limited by zoning restrictions in the former neighborhood business districts - seems the effect is the same as too many nail salons or liquor stores (and I’m paraphrasing the alderman/woman here, if I remember correctly.)  there was also some question that while some truly have caring pastors, others are just ripoffs and business write-offs for their “mail order divinity degree” ministers with ten in the congregation.

Comment #23: phylosopher  on  06/21  at  11:46 PM

“Now here’s the deal.  You agree to buy a certain number each month of these very unique and inspirational tulip bulbs, just as Jesus wants you to, each guaranteed, if planted, to attempt to produce a gen-u-wine certified tulip.  You also agree to give us 50% of your profits on each sale. 

They’re a guar-n-teed seller, ‘cause they’re actually more of an investment than a mere flower.  Why they’ve been rising in value over 20% each month!  You can’t lose!

I think if you search your heart, you’ll realize that signing this contract is just what God wants you to do…”

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  06/21  at  11:52 PM

Neopharisees, the lot of them.

These people know little or nothing about ethics, and bristle that ethics should be codified in other than religious terms.  It is all about morality, conveniently decided “on high” so that wealthy people may exploit the less wealthy, and the money be considered to be a sign of their moral superiority.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  12:05 AM

“I do not know about Thomas Kinkade, but with respect, you are wrong about Scientology.
I do not find its philosphy particularly difficult to sell because it’s very high quality and offered at a steep but fair price.  Generally I just give people a copy of
Dianetics and let them read it for themselves.  Hook ‘em up to an E-Meter and tell them about all the engrams hold them back.  Some elect to become mindless cash-producing servo-drones and some don’t.  I don’t pressure people too much, I leave that to Tom Cruise and John Travolta…”

Comment #26: MikeEss  on  06/22  at  12:09 AM

This quote should be one’s guide—

“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain’t worth a shit—not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
— William S. Burroughs

smile

Comment #27: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/22  at  12:31 AM

Felix Salmon is concerned that this kind of ruling implies that Christians are more trustworthy than other people.

Really?  It makes me think that calling anything calling itself “Christian” is probably a scam. 

(To be fair, I already thought that.)

Comment #28: FlipYrWhig  on  06/22  at  12:33 AM

Doh!  That should say “It makes me think that anything calling itself ‘Christian’ is probably a scam.”  But calling something that calls itself Christian probably won’t turn out well either.

Comment #29: FlipYrWhig  on  06/22  at  12:34 AM

I would also think there is, on some level, not so much that Christians have a higher-trustworthy standard, but that the constant christian talk was a deliberate attempt to circumvent rational thinking. “I agree with you about Jesus, therefore we should agree about other stuff, I’m a pleasant and reasonable person, and we share beliefs.”

It’d kind of hard to say that isn’t fraudulent when that exact principle has been exploited by con artists doing everything from a long con to bums trying to get 5 bucks to buy booze since time immemorial.

Comment #30: karpad  on  06/22  at  12:35 AM

Only thing I can add is that I once babysat for a couple at my parent’s church who were Amway reps…they had two sweet little boys, so it was an easy job, BUT, they NEVER tipped me; would write me a check for the EXACT amount I babysat. We’re talking max 20.00 here…but if it was technically 19.50, then they wouldn’t even round that up. So fucking cheap! And then when my parents stopped doing Amway, they stopped calling me to babysit.

I remembered that when reading Nickel and Dimed, when Ehrenreich noted that Christian tables NEVER tipped.

I went to church, but I must have missed the “screw others and tipping is Satan’s will” lesson. Or, Christians in general think that since they’ve got their in in Heaven, they don’t have to give a fuck about anyone else anymore.

Comment #31: emjaybee  on  06/22  at  12:37 AM

I would also think there is, on some level, not so much that Christians have a higher-trustworthy standard, but that the constant christian talk was a deliberate attempt to circumvent rational thinking. “I agree with you about Jesus, therefore we should agree about other stuff, I’m a pleasant and reasonable person, and we share beliefs.”

We had a previous thread about this where someone was outraged—OUTRAGED—that African Americans were making an effort to patronize other African American-owned businesses and creating their own network of businesses as a means of creating a web of trust. The flipside to all of these arrangements is that while they are mutually advantageous and tend to provide an assurance of trust, it leaves people open to scams (eg, Bernie Madoff). The thing is that I don’t see how this would work by identifying yourself as a “Christian.” I mean,  within evangelicals, they all go to different megachurches that aren’t associated with each other, and it’s not like “Christians” in America are part of a tight-knit group. By contrast, trading off the trust you have as, say, a member of a similar ethnic group in the US is reinforced by the fact that members of a group are all known to each other by overlapping 2nd or 3rd-degree connections via family and friends. But what are the odds that Kinkade is going to have any kind of social/family connection to Joe Random Evangelical he’s trying to set up a business partnership with?

I remembered that when reading Nickel and Dimed, when Ehrenreich noted that Christian tables NEVER tipped.

I suspect this is class-based. The Sunday after church when these people go out to brunch is probably the only time they go out to eat and they don’t know any better. Unfortunately, when you organize yourself into a clearly identifiable group when you go out to eat, your tipping track record ends up reflecting on everyone in that group. Reminds me of the time I went out with some old college friends to dinner during an informal reunion weekend, and we were all wearing clothes clearly identifying ourselves from there. I knew we had to tip well, lest we bring shame to all other alumni from our alma mater.

Comment #32: Tyro  on  06/22  at  12:51 AM

Utah is apparently a vortex of white-collar fraud for this very reason.  It’s incredibly easy for a con man to say, “I’m Morman, you’re Morman, would a fellow LDS member do you wrong?”  They talk up their scam and then give you a day or two to ‘pray’ about it, knowing that when people communicate directly with God, he generally tells them what they wanted to hear. 

I worked at restaurants near churches and synagogues, and I can tell you it’s not just Christians - anyone coming out of a religious service of any kind doesn’t tip, and when they do tips tend to be inversely proportional to the number of conspicuous signs of wealth.

Comment #33: Kyso K  on  06/22  at  12:55 AM

Or, Christians in general think that since they’ve got their in in Heaven, they don’t have to give a fuck about anyone else anymore.

They also tend to have the most hostility I’ve seen towards homeless or destitute people. Which makes sense, if you recall how Jesus used to go on and on about how the poor are lazy bastards who don’t deserve your sympathy.

Comment #34: junk science  on  06/22  at  12:55 AM

The thing is that I don’t see how this would work by identifying yourself as a “Christian.” I mean, within evangelicals, they all go to different megachurches that aren’t associated with each other, and it’s not like “Christians” in America are part of a tight-knit group.

There’s ways.  That stupid fish decal in the window, for example, identifies the ‘right kind’ of Christian.  There’s a big-box crafts store near my house that manages to have a super-creepy self-righteous vibe to it, from the aisles of Jesus-themed craft bases with nary a Star of David in sight to the smarmy sign explaining why they’re closed Sundays to give their employees “family time.”  They also sell inferior fabric at superior prices, although they’ve got good deals on patterns.

Comment #35: Kyso K  on  06/22  at  01:00 AM

The Sunday after church when these people go out to brunch is probably the only time they go out to eat and they don’t know any better.

I really don’t think so. If you eat out as often as once a week, you know how American restaurants work. It’s such common knowledge that you’re supposed to tip waiters that I don’t remember when or how I learned it, and I’m sure most other people don’t either. And I don’t think Ehrenreich even accused them of never tipping, just of leaving very stingy tips.

Comment #36: junk science  on  06/22  at  01:01 AM

Wow, I’d never heard of that. How incredibly assy.

Comment #37: junk science  on  06/22  at  01:10 AM

More anecdata: One group of my relatives is what I call the “Supa Catholic” family.  They also happen to be the stingiest members of the family.  I don’t know their tipping philosophy because I haven’t physically interacted with them in half a decade and it doesn’t come up in, say, post cards or email threads. 

My hypothesis is that dogmatic thinking does not allow for a great deal of empathy, cuz then you’d have to reject the dogma.

Comment #38: Ursula  on  06/22  at  01:15 AM

Having seen Amway nice up close and personal (wasn’t involved myself), there really is very strong Calvinistic theme behind the whole thing.

It’s more than a theme—the founders of Amway, Van Andel and DeVos, are both the big heroes of the Christian Reformed Church, the Calvinist assholes the Dutch kicked out awhile ago. And who all moved to western Michigan, where I grew up.

The culture of these people is frankly disgusting. They are both certain that they are rich because god has chosen them and feel that they should stand in judgment of everyone on the planet, especially through a violent empire. Their children have very specific designs of being the next Bush family, trying to get to the White House through a MI governorship (fortunately, MI remains a blue state and fairly sane politically over all). DeVos’ son is brother-in-law with Erik Prince, the Blackwater founder/CEO.

Comment #39: Loneoak  on  06/22  at  01:15 AM

I mean, within evangelicals, they all go to different megachurches that aren’t associated with each other, and it’s not like “Christians” in America are part of a tight-knit group. . .

Not completely true. Members of one megachurch may socialize with members of another church (or megachurch). Many (certainly not all, but many) people in these churches are there as the result of geography, not cultural or (*SNORT*) doctrinal preference, so they may well get along fine even though they worship in separate places. Churches may get together for social events—then the groups mingle.

On top of this, there are lots of massive, interchurch and evangelical get-togethers. Some of them are very light on cultural Christianity, the result being a melting pot—actually, more accurately, a salad—of perspectives from people who all happen to call themselves Christian. You can go to some of these events and meet paleontologists who will call Creationism bullshit, then meet pastors who preach that the materialism of most churches is nothing short of Satanic, and spend dinner with a bunch of youth pastors and kids who find whatever-war-the-U.S.-is-in right now to be abhorrent and anti-Christian. And down the hall from you will be some fucker complaining that “we need to just nuke ‘em all, oil and all.” And he has tons of friends.

There is a common culture, but it’s diverse enough that even its contradictory elements tend to be glossed over in light social interaction. And it can even trump race, depending on how devout the persons in question are. So it’s not impossible for Kinkade and similar con artists to capitalize on this. Remember, one of the central concepts in Christianity is that a Christian is a “stranger” to the world and is, therefore, somewhat isolated from it. (Which makes sense in a general way: righteous people are freaks if the world is corrupt.) The faith then goes on to exort members to not isolate themselves from the world, but that gets kinda mixed up by the time it makes it to the religion. End result, Christians can feel a kind of “minority status” that tends to bind them like with other minorities. The trick is, for SOME Christians, this minority status is the result of cleaving to a strict code of honor of self-sacrifice. For some other Christians, it’s a cultural affiliation that makes them feel special. Worse, it can be a cipher for something else (whiteness is a common one).

And all those people are supposed to belong to the same club.

I apologize if this rambles, but the point is that the term Christian is like the term “conservative” and the term “libertarian*” and the term “anarchist”: it now means both itself and its exact opposite. Sometimes simultaneously.

*This originally refered to a viewpoint of anarchism, the social responsibility concept, not the “no government” trope.

Comment #40: No One of Consequence  on  06/22  at  01:18 AM

The Sunday after church when these people go out to brunch is probably the only time they go out to eat and they don’t know any better.

I really don’t think so. If you eat out as often as once a week, you know how American restaurants work.

This. There’s absolutely no excuse for anyone who eats out more often than once a year not to know how tipping works or why it’s the convention in this country. It’s not ignorance, and it’s not unintentional.

People like that are why I always over-tip, but there are far more of them than there are of me.

Comment #41: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  06/22  at  01:24 AM

This. There’s absolutely no excuse for anyone who eats out more often than once a year not to know how tipping works or why it’s the convention in this country. It’s not ignorance, and it’s not unintentional.

I’m a cynical guy, but there are enough bad tippers in America and it’s so common that even I find it hard to believe that we have millions of Americans who are self-consciously stiffing the waitstaff of their expected wages. I find it easier to believe that they simply don’t know/understand* than they are purposely screwing over servers.

On top of this, there are lots of massive, interchurch and evangelical get-togethers. Some of them are very light on cultural Christianity, the result being a melting pot—actually, more accurately, a salad—of perspectives from people who all happen to call themselves Christian. ... There is a common culture, but it’s diverse enough that even its contradictory elements tend to be glossed over in light social interaction. And it can even trump race, depending on how devout the persons in question are. So it’s not impossible for Kinkade and similar con artists to capitalize on this.

I find this all perversely fascinating. I haven’t been around large numbers of evangelicals in my social circle since I was in college. I’m now tempted to stop by the local megachurch to see if this is what it’s like.

*The first time I hired movers I didn’t tip them because I didn’t know that was part of the convention. I wasn’t being malicious or cheap, I swear.

Comment #42: Tyro  on  06/22  at  01:34 AM

Keep in mind that there must be some market for the “empathy is bad” crowd.

Comment #43: Punditus Maximus  on  06/22  at  01:36 AM

I doubt he would have been a fan of fundies of today, but the fact that fundamentalism and evangelicalism (two different things) straddle the poor and upper-middle classes would have, I think, made his take on things complex.

Not to mention that fundamentalism and evangelicalism as we know it today are very recent phenomena—at best, they’re less than 100 years old.  So the Christianity that Marx was talking about was quite different from what we have today.

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  06/22  at  01:39 AM

The following verse was hammered into my skull in tenth grade as a devotional for a school chorale tour:

“And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.” Colossians 3:17 (NAB, motherfuckers!)

I think this verse explains much of evangelical pop culture—slip a layer of Benjamin Moore Yahweh Yellow on top of everything and no one will notice that it’s made of oatmeal and Bac-Os. It’s the old art-as-ideology thing—quality is irrelevant.

Comment #45: BrianX  on  06/22  at  01:46 AM

I find it easier to believe that they simply don’t know/understand* than they are purposely screwing over servers.

If it makes you feel better, you can assume they don’t know waiters are getting paid two bucks an hour. It may not be that they want to fuck anyone over; they might just resent having to pay more on top of an already steep bill. I would never undertip a waiter, but I do sometimes wish the fucking restaurant would just pay them so I wouldn’t have to.

Comment #46: junk science  on  06/22  at  01:55 AM

I’ve run into so many people who are involved in pyramid or MLM schemes in the past few years that I have to believe that it’s a substantial percentage of our GDP at this point.  And yes, many of them are working them through their churches.

Comment #47: DonnaDiva  on  06/22  at  04:02 AM

There’s a big-box crafts store near my house that manages to have a super-creepy self-righteous vibe to it, from the aisles of Jesus-themed craft bases with nary a Star of David in sight to the smarmy sign explaining why they’re closed Sundays to give their employees “family time.”

Hobby Lobby, yeah?

by which I mean “if you don’t mean Hobby Lobby for some reason, you should know they are the same, please don’t give them business.”

Comment #48: karpad  on  06/22  at  05:01 AM

Another thing about Hobby Lobby: Their HR department is ridiculously slow about getting back paystubs to people.  So if you ever work there, save every paystub.  Your bankruptcy lawyers will thank you.

Comment #49: Maureen  on  06/22  at  05:20 AM

Off topic a little, but I hate tipping conventions.  And in the UK it’s 10%, not whatever higher figure it is in the US (20%?).

As far as I’m concerned, it’s an excuse to leave waiting staff underpaid and relying on the largesse of guilt-ridden customers to provide them a living wage.  Why the hell are only low paid employees reliant on tipping eh?  You don’t find lawyers complaining that their customers/clients have stiffed them on the bill - cos they charge full price in the first place.

So I’d happily see the end of tipping, even if it meant an increase in prices at restaurants (and a commensurate increase in waiting staff wages) because that would require honest pricing.

Comment #50: Katherine  on  06/22  at  05:52 AM

Indeed, I do mean Hobby Lobby.  That place gives me the screaming heebie jeebies.  And I don’t buy anything there except $2 McCall’s patterns, since I assume they’re losing money on them. 

I’m a cynical guy, but there are enough bad tippers in America and it’s so common that even I find it hard to believe that we have millions of Americans who are self-consciously stiffing the waitstaff of their expected wages.

I refer you to the tipping argument in Reservoir Dogs.  Some people just “don’t believe in tipping.”  Lots of people who tip poorly will be purposefully difficult to serve, so that they can complain that your crappy service merits a crappy tip.  A rarer breed will come in and choose to be absolutely impossible to serve so that they can complain to management and get a free meal.  People in large groups will tip poorly on the assumption that the rest of the group will tip enough to mask them, and if more than a quarter of the group thinks that way, you’re screwed (especially since having one large group usually means smaller groups you would have served were diverted to other servers, so you lose more than just the 10% or so they’re stiffing you.  This is why gratuity is automatically added for groups of 6 or more). 

And of course some people still have their tip calculators set to 1957 dollars.  In the chain restaurants and skeezy independent bars and grills I worked, by the time you eliminated the churchgoers, teenagers, crotchety old people, welfare recipients eating their one meal out for the month, scammers, and the just plain asshats, you weren’t left with much.  The people who knew how to tip were all eating in establishments with better clientèle.

Comment #51: Kyso K  on  06/22  at  06:43 AM

“Mandy I stand corrected.  You have slightly better taste then I believed you to have.  Now that’s as close as I get to a compliment, so enjoy it while it lasts.
MonkeyShines on 06/22 at 12:43 AM”

Mandy?

Comment #52: seeker6079  on  06/22  at  07:28 AM

Only thing I can add is that I once babysat for a couple at my parent’s church who were Amway reps…they had two sweet little boys, so it was an easy job, BUT, they NEVER tipped me; would write me a check for the EXACT amount I babysat.

Tipping a babysitter?  WTF?  Man, that’s a culture that I ‘m not familiar with.

I was paid wage when I babysat, and that was what I got and what I expected.  I have never heard of tipping a babysitter. 

Tipping culture makes my head hurt anyway, but, I’m sorry, but this is flat out odd to me.

Then again, I grew up tipping 10% max and my husband, who grew up out east, thinks that is way too low.  But he also bitches ENDLESSLY about how much meals cost in Oregon, where 10% used to be the norm for a tip.  I don’t think he fully understands that servers get paid a much higher minimum wage in OR than in MA, and there are far fewer “family conscripts” in the restaurants.

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  08:11 AM

An Amway distributor tried to recruit me and my ex once.  The products were overpriced, sometimes by a factor of two or three, and the supposedly luxurious lifestyle looked like moneygrubbing to us.  I refused to have anything to do with it, and my ex quoted Thoreau about making his needs simple that his wants might be few.  They went away and never came back, and the friend who had introduced them to us in the first place was so upset by the Amways trying to exploit their friendship that she stopped speaking to them.

As for tipping - I usually eat out after church, and tip my customary 20%.  Then again, I’m a godless Unitarian so what do I know?

Comment #54: Ellid  on  06/22  at  08:17 AM

Had to go to Houston Saturday for a funeral….that in itself was an interesting experience….it was a memorial service at the AA club where this guy was a member and most of the people at the funeral were his biker buddies from AA….but, the point is that Houston is full to the gills of mega churches.  I can’t tell you how many we drove by, but they were huge places that looked like school campuses. 

We decided that those churches were there because the place is so big, with so many people and yet so much isolation, that the churches are there to be like social clubs, with god, I guess.

As happy heathens, we want no part of that culture.  I’d rather be lonely than have to put up with hypocritical bullshit. 

Also, whenever we see one of those christian “fish” symbols on a business, it is a sure sign to STAY AWAY….you will be screwed for sure if you use their service.

Comment #55: abo gato  on  06/22  at  08:37 AM

Ms Kate, when I babysat and I did it a lot, many couples did give me extra.  In fact, more did than didn’t.

I suspect this is class-based. The Sunday after church when these people go out to brunch is probably the only time they go out to eat and they don’t know any better.

Tyro this is like a slap in my face on two levels.

- I have recently read that studies show that the poor donate more of their incomes to charity than the rich do.  So we know that the poor are generous.

-You are making a very elitist claim and I don’t like it.  You are saying that the poor are of such a lower class that they don’t even know you are supposed to tip the wait staff.  First of all that’s stupid, because who the fuck do you think wait on you in say a shitty diner?  Arianna Huffington’s debutante daughter?  And it’s also just very snobby.  You know, Marx once said that the real intellectuals are in the working class.  I don’t know if that’s true but I do know that by and large they’re not dumb. 

You are painting the poor in our country as clueless, low-class bumpkins just to let the religious freaks off the hook. Bullshit - the hook belongs in the religious freaks, not in the poor.

Comment #56: Lady Vader  on  06/22  at  08:44 AM

I suspect that Kinkade’s saccharine images of cozy little cottages grace the walls of each Baptist manse as a talisman against a spiritual corruption born of ungratified passions. That his pedantic art sells comes as no surprise given its low-brow appeal. “Like forgery,” said Denis Dutton, “kitsch is an inevitable feature of an art world in which money and desire are spread more widely than taste and knowledge.”

“So [Thomas] Kinkade is a whore-mongering drunk, but makes millions by pandering to the breeder proletariat with his meaningless landscapes of shitty little shacks with over-compensating kerosene lanterns.” Anntichrist S. Coulter, Blogger

Comment #57: BobbyV  on  06/22  at  08:48 AM

Off topic a little, but I hate tipping conventions.  ...
So I’d happily see the end of tipping, even if it meant an increase in prices at restaurants (and a commensurate increase in waiting staff wages) because that would require honest pricing.
Katherine on 06/22 at 12:52 AM

All of this! Including the parts I elided out.

As for people “not knowing,” either how much to tip or that tips are expected in These Great United States, well. Hogwash.

There’s the fake $20 thing—which is just outrageous, and no, I did not know that!

Then there’s the fact that in my adult lifetime anyway, the standard forms for payment printed on one’s receipt include a line for tipping, should one wish to pay via credit card. That’s a pretty big, um, tip-off, that this tip thing isn’t some random quirk.

As for not knowing how much to tip, well, that’s more understandable, but knowing one is ignorant of such an important guideline ought to prompt some kind of inquiry.

So these Christians! What sort of excuse have they got? If a spiritually shallow and socially isolated dude like I was in college could pick up on the fact that tips were seriously expected, what about these “salt of the earth” types, who presumably welcome the hard-working wait staff into their congregation? Who are told by their Good Book who their neighbor is? What about the pastors—shouldn’t they be stressing that if God wants our great nation to be a land of free enterprise, then Thou Shalt Not Bind the Mouths of the Kine Who Tread the Grain?

It took me way longer than my 5 years attempting my first pass at college to learn that actually, wait staff are not generally paid even the scanty minimum wage our laws mandate for most fields of work, and that tips are not just a bonus “To Insure Prompt Service” as I was told (way back in high school actually) but the main source of income for these workers.

It was in high school that I read books that informed me that in other countries—New Zealand, for instance—tipping was much frowned on and workers were actually paid regular wages to do the work. (Obviously I didn’t draw the inference that in my country, they aren’t. This is because of a much stronger pro-working-class culture there than here.

I finally understand why Ursula LeGuin attributed the start of the Odonian Revolution on Urras to wait staff at restaurants!

Who else here has read the chapter in The Education of Little Tree on doing business with Christians?

Comment #58: Mark Foxwell  on  06/22  at  08:57 AM

thanks for putting the word “artist” in quotes when referring to Kinkade.  One can almost go into a diabetic coma looking at his paintings, not to mention the worry about his rustic little cottages being swept away in the first real rainstorm. 

I read a review of the first “book” Kinkade “wrote” a few years ago on Salon - it was called Port Jesus or something like that.  The reviewer was delightfully scathing and funny.  I couldn’t find the review on Salon - something seems to be wrong with their archives search - but she entitled her review “Thomas Kinkade(tm), Writer of Drivel.  He paints that too.

Comment #59: mingo  on  06/22  at  09:07 AM

I have recently read that studies show that the poor donate more of their incomes to charity than the rich do.  So we know that the poor are generous.

Which means that the poor have an understanding of charity but not might be aware of prevailing tipping conventions and standards.

You know, Marx once said that the real intellectuals are in the working class.  I don’t know if that’s true but I do know that by and large they’re not dumb.

I didn’t say they were dumb. It’s entirely possible that decent tipping functions as a social convention and that a “standard” (minimum for good service) tip is 15% might be less commonly known among the social classes that attend megachurches. Do you think people who match a brown belt with black shoes are “dumb” or just unaware of fashion standards?

You are painting the poor in our country as clueless, low-class bumpkins just to let the religious freaks off the hook. Bullshit - the hook belongs in the religious freaks, not in the poor.

Or maybe I’m painting some religious freaks as low-class bumpkins.

Or maybe I’m just reflecting my typical liberal nature in which I naively think that if only people knew and were culturally acclimated to prevailing tipping standards and convention, people would follow them.

Comment #60: Tyro  on  06/22  at  09:23 AM

Thank you Caton! As someone who has worked in food service on and off since I was 14 I can tell you working class people almost always tip better than upper-middle and upper class people. Every taxi driver I’ve ever met says the same. Every hair stylist I’ve known agrees. Every manicurist knows this. Every delivery man is aware of this.

Comment #61: shakahi  on  06/22  at  09:40 AM

Looking at some of Kinkade’s output on Google images (not being familiar with his oeuvre), besides the saccharine look the other thing that struck me is how “white”/European it all looks.

But at least there aren’t any cartoony white children with humongous eyes in his work, so there’s that…

Comment #62: MikeEss  on  06/22  at  09:48 AM

“Which means that the poor have an understanding of charity but not might be aware of prevailing tipping conventions and standards. “

What do you think they are?  Aliens?  You sound like nothing more than an elitist who thinks they’re better than the socio-economic class below them.  It follows that you think the socio-economic class(es) above you are better than you are.

You are projecting your socio-economic and class insecurities onto people who live in poverty in this country and who do so for a variety of reasons, none of which indicate they don’t know you tip the fucking waitress.

God, I have never gotten so angry at a commentor here.  This attitude makes me sick.

Comment #63: Lady Vader  on  06/22  at  10:10 AM

Thank you Caton! As someone who has worked in food service on and off since I was 14 I can tell you working class people almost always tip better than upper-middle and upper class people. Every taxi driver I’ve ever met says the same. Every hair stylist I’ve known agrees. Every manicurist knows this. Every delivery man is aware of this.

I really believe that.  You know how I know this?  I used to date pretty well-off sometimes even wealthy businessmen when I was in my 20’s.  I was conventionally good looking and they were always the ones who asked me out at my company and at company events.  I was not wealthy by any means.  I went to a lot of really nice restaurants and after a while I noticed that they often under-tipped.  Sometimes so badly that I have on occassion claimed I left something at my table once we had just stepped outside, and I would run in and sneak a 20 into the check-holder. 

It’s just so enraging to see people talking out their asses about the poor.  Fuck me if they ever even met one.  Certainly they don’t know any.  If I were lying in the street I’d much rather have my fate rely on the first poor person that came along than the first rich one.

Comment #64: Lady Vader  on  06/22  at  10:14 AM

“My experience is that the complaints people have about Amway are nearly always legitimate, and I have heard some real horror stories.  In every case, however, when I probed deeper, I found that the complaint was not exactly about the Amway company, but rather about some particular distributor or distributor organization.”

I hope to fuck he/she is getting paid to Amway troll, it’d be a damn shame if they were getting this for free. One of the collections of pieces from “The Baffler” has a really good Amway story. 

“The culture of these people is frankly disgusting. They are both certain that they are rich because god has chosen them and feel that they should stand in judgment of everyone on the planet, especially through a violent empire. Their children have very specific designs of being the next Bush family, trying to get to the White House through a MI governorship (fortunately, MI remains a blue state and fairly sane politically over all). DeVos’ son is brother-in-law with Erik Prince, the Blackwater founder/CEO.”

Growing up the Upper Peninsula, Amway was always considered an f’ing joke. Like, seriously, something you’d say to put down another kid was that his mom sold Amway. Now, living in Kalamazoo, it’s amazing how much respect those crooks are given. I think Dick DeVos’ ridiculous performance in 2006 against a governor that wasn’t very popular ought to learn the west Michigan Republicans that they aren’t going to be elected to statewide office, ever. Pete Hoekstra is the next to lose, hopefully in the Republican primary to Terry Lynn Land (fuck her, I miss my blue license plate) and Mike Cox (who’s slimy, but not as crazy as Hoekstra).

It’s probably going to be a Republican win in 2010, because there isn’t a strong Dem candidate running and it’s going to be a lot easier for them to pin the economy to (term-limited) Granholm, now that she doesn’t have “na-ah Bush” as a counterargument, plus she won’t be able to defend herself forcefully, without making the 2010 nominee look like her puppet.

Comment #65: witless chum  on  06/22  at  10:25 AM

MonkeyShines, thanks for demonstrating what an idiot you are, as only idiots wouldn’t know that calling Amanda is patronizing and wrong. 

Be sure to let everyone know when you start your creative writing career.

mingo, that’s why you use Google when you need to find an article:

With his appalling new novel, Thomas Kinkade, “The Painter of Light™,” makes a strong bid to become the world champion of vapid, money-grubbing kitsch.

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/22  at  10:31 AM

I’ve always assumed that these attitudes (willingness to screw people over, bad tipping, lack of empathy in general) are prevalent amongst the religious because so many are all ready well-trained in compartmental thinking which leads to their amorality in business dealings.  The thought ‘I’m a moral and good person’ floats near the top and leaves no room for any of their other, darker beliefs to break the surface of their mind.

Comment #67: Half Ass Saint  on  06/22  at  10:33 AM

Tyro, you are full of crap.  Everybody I ever knew who waited tables hated waiting on the wealthy people because they tended to stiff on tips. My cousin owns a diner, and she confirmed this, as did my great aunt who owned a restaurant for 35 years - working class people know the value of work and have very likely, at some point, waited or bussed tables.

Comment #68: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  10:34 AM

I spent many years working in restaurants and was stiffed by both ends of the economic spectrum, but the most common culprits were businessmen at lunch, church groups, cranky people of all stripes, and certain strains of redneck who come in a wide variety of ethnic, cultural, and economic stripes - basically any group who’s biggest fear in life is that someone, somewhere, may be getting something they don’t deserve.

Comment #69: Half Ass Saint  on  06/22  at  10:40 AM

My brother recently married into a nest of Canadian evangelicals (Nazarines) and I came to his wedding expecting to need serious toungue protection to prevent a bite-through.

I didn’t need it.  This was a modest church, in a decent community, with good relations with other churches in the area.  The people were hardworking farming and working class folk for the most part.  While the service included a statement of “we believe that god made man and woman blah blah”, it was expressed as a statement of THEIR faith, and there was no nasty sermon about what those other people are doing is bad, etc.  There wasn’t anything about OBEY HUSBAND either.

In short, these were pious and sane and warm and loving and welcoming people, well grounded in trying to live what their Christianity says they should do.  I was surprised that I was not once prosletysed or asked about my relationship with jesus or anything of the sort.

I don’t know what it is, but spending time in Canada’s Bible Belt was not unpleasant, in part, because their evangelicals seem a lot saner than ours do.  Fervent, yes ... batshit crazy? Not that I can see.

Comment #70: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  10:45 AM

Does Amway make products compatible with pampered chef cookware?

Comment #71: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  10:47 AM

Ms. Kate - they aren’t a politically super-powerful majority (or big plurality), that’s why.

Christianity always seems to do better, in terms of the behavior of its adherents, when it isn’t twisted up with temporal power. A European lesson we have yet to fully learn here.

Comment #72: Alkaloid  on  06/22  at  11:03 AM

Ms Kate - in my neck of the Canadian woods (Alberta - particularly the rural bits), you’ll find some small, but healthy populations of the batshit variety.  Not as many as in the US, but still our fair share my father mildly amongst them.  They’re the reason we get our provincial gov’t enshrining ‘parents rights’ into our human rights code at the same time that they finally acquiesce and add in protections for homosexuals so that parents can now file a human rights complaint if they aren’t properly notified that a teacher will be discussing such horrible things as sex, evolution, or the fact that gay people exist and aren’t evil so that they can pull their child out post-haste.

Comment #73: Half Ass Saint  on  06/22  at  11:16 AM

Half Ass Saint - This WAS rural Alberta - Rocky Mountain House, to be exact.

Comment #74: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  11:35 AM

I think there’s a regional component to bad tipping. For instance, my wife’s family is made up of working class folk from rural Kentucky and almost all of them tip poorly. My mother-in-law is an exception (possibly after extensive training from my wife), but my father-in-law thinks a dollar is enough, regardless of the size of the bill. We always pay the tip when we go out with them, even if they pick up the check.

In the midwest, though, my experience has generally been the opposite (i.e., that the wealthy are bad tippers).

Comment #75: befuggled  on  06/22  at  11:36 AM

Neopharisees, the lot of them.

I wish.

Most Americans are familiar with the Pharisees, one of the competing Jewish sects at the time of Jesus, because Jesus spent a lot of time criticizing them.  However, the tensions between the proto-Christians and the Pharisees were the sort that arise not between rival movements, but between different wings of the same movement.  The Pharisees, who valued reason over traditional authority and education over birthright, were Jesus’s most likely allies in Judea at the time.  Jesus’s problems with the Pharisees came from their largely moderate temperament, which resulted in few of them coming to the aid of Jesus’s more liberal interpretation.

The people who corresponded to today’s Christian right were the Sadducees, the main opponents of the Pharisees.  Jesus isn’t recorded as saying much about the Sadducees, probably because they were never going to be his allies.  The Sadducees believed in the literal truth of the Torah and supported a strong, hereditary, priestly caste.  Any facts that contradicted these values were not facts at all.  The difference between the Pharisees and the Sadducees can be summed up in their interpretation of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”—the Pharisees took that as requiring an equivalent financial penalty for any loss of any ability, the Sadducees poked out eyes and punched out teeth.

FWIW, there is a movement today that could be called “Neopharisees”, but we usually just call them “Jews”. The Pharisees won out over the Sadducees, as well as the Essenes and Zealots, and modern Judaism is largely based upon the Pharisee tradition. This is why literal interpretation of the Torah is so uncommon in Judaism, and why Jewish religious figures are called rabbis rather than priests—valuing education and skill in disputation over birth into a priestly caste was a Pharisaical innovation.

Comment #76: cminus  on  06/22  at  11:44 AM

Ms Kate,

Fair enough, and I’m glad to hear it.  They do exist here, though.  Again, not as numerous in the US, but still enough to influence our provincial politics.

Comment #77: Half Ass Saint  on  06/22  at  12:00 PM

I couldn’t understand why she had such hostility to a somewhat sentimental but never the less aesthetically competent painter as William KINCAID.

I beg to differ, sir or ma’am. Some time ago I was walking through a mall and I saw a Kincaid painting that forced me to stop. I stared at it for about ten minutes because I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. The artist had screwed up proportion. That is, a building and a path in the background was the same size as a building and the same path in the foreground. I couldn’t believe that a modern, commercial artist could make such a mistake, but it was there.

Kincaid paints these things like an assembly line churns out toys, so perhaps some errors are inevitable. Still, shoddy is shoddy.

I would never undertip a waiter, but I do sometimes wish the fucking restaurant would just pay them so I wouldn’t have to.

QFT.

But yeah, you tip the waiter or you don’t go to the restaurant. Our culture is broken and we just have to deal with it until we get sane people in charge.

Also, btw, tipping conventions are not universal. You can find poorer neighborhoods where it’s not common, especially when semi-formal restaurants are rare and fast food is the norm. I didn’t grow up tipping—I picked up the custom when I started going to diners, etc.

And the fake $20 thing should get someones ass kicked in a parking lot.

Comment #78: No One of Consequence  on  06/22  at  12:06 PM

Christianity always seems to do better, in terms of the behavior of its adherents, when it isn’t twisted up with temporal power. A European lesson we have yet to fully learn here.

Constantine nearly destroyed Christianity. The last two milennia has been his legacy grinding it down.

No code of honor survives intermingling with material gain.

Philosophical ranting aside, European church attendance is pathetic. That’s what an official state religion will do for you.

Comment #79: No One of Consequence  on  06/22  at  12:07 PM

The last time there was an attempt at a legalistic interpretation of Judaism, it was done by Napoleon Bonaparte and the Grand Sanhedrin:

1. that, in conformity with the decree of R. Gershom ben Judah, polygamy is forbidden to the Israelites;
  2. That divorce by the Jewish law is valid only after previous decision of the civil authorities;
  3. That the religious act of marriage must be preceded by a civil contract;
  4. That marriages contracted between Israelites and Christians are binding, although they can not be celebrated with religious forms;
  5. That every Israelite is religiously bound to consider his non-Jewish fellow citizens as brothers, and to aid, protect, and love them as though they were coreligionists;
  6. That the Israelite is required to consider the land of his birth or adoption as his fatherland, and shall love and defend it when called upon;
  7. That Judaism does not forbid any kind of handicraft or occupation;
  8. That it is commendable for Israelites to engage in agriculture, manual labor, and the arts, as their ancestors in Palestine were wont to do;
  9. That, finally, Israelites are forbidden to exact usury from Jew or Christian.

Comment #80: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/22  at  12:32 PM

Well, coming in late, but one of my pet peeves is that right-wing radio is dominated by advertising for “buy gold” or get-rich-quick schemes that are preposterous on their face.  For you see, the Limbaughs of the world know full well their followers are ‘bunnies’ of the most naive kind.  They are simply too stupid to know that they are not considered as followers but rather as prey.

Comment #81: Magis  on  06/22  at  12:46 PM

It needs to be remembered that Constantine made Christianity legal. Before that, Roman policy essentially regarded Judaism and the early Church as seditious, since they forbade their adherents from paying respect to Roman gods, including deified emperors. (No other god before Me, etc.)

Constantine made it safe—and more than that, socially respectable—to join the Church. This opened the door to powerful, educated, elite men joining what had been an small, embattled, underground sect that previously had appealed mostly to women and the poor. And a sect to which no more than 15% of the population of the Roman empire belonged at the most liberal estimate, and the majority of those in a handful of large cities in the eastern Mediterranean. (Early Christianity was exclusively urban, a religion of the slums of Hellenistic cities like Ephesus; the vulgar Latin *paganus* - “pagan” - means “country dweller”).

So perhaps the embrace of Christianity by powerful men corrupted the Church’s soul, NOOC. But that same embrace also gave Christianity real viability over the long term. Allowed this religion to eclipse all those dozens of other weird cults of salvation bubbling up in the cities of the Greek-speaking world. 2000 years is rather a long-ass grinding-down time, don’t you think?

State control is not what killed attendance at services, either. National churches were established by the Reformation in the 16th century. You have a good four centuries of Christianity as central to European life. Try blaming modernity instead - that’s a lot more plausible.

Comment #82: wapsie  on  06/22  at  01:04 PM

er, that would be “*nationalized* Christianity as central to…” etc.

Comment #83: wapsie  on  06/22  at  01:06 PM

They are simply too stupid to know that they are not considered as followers but rather as prey.

Not sure stupid is the right word.  Some people have been denied access to education that would have long ago turned them away from all the dreams and miracles stuff, including religion.  Others are trying to make a living for their family, not knowing that the game is rigged.  They turn to religion to find the community to help them, but that doesn’t work when there are too many seekers and not enough places to put them that are sustainable.  Removing the promise of that help would be deadly to the megachurches, so the charletans rule the day.

Comment #84: Ms Kate  on  06/22  at  01:20 PM

Here’s a three part history of how a sizable portion of people calling themselves Christians started hating the poor and trying to get as much money as possible.

http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/118585.html
http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/118805.html
http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/119283.html

Comment #85: Nancy Lebovitz  on  06/22  at  02:20 PM

Constantine made it safe—and more than that, socially respectable—to join the Church.

Not only that, he made joining the Church a road to temporal power. If you wanted money and influence, you converted to Christianity.

That’s the problem.

You’re more likely to meet a devout Christian in one of those (actually, kinda rare) places where Christianity is suppressed than in, say, the U.S. Constantine elevated a religion and cast down a faith.

But that same embrace also gave Christianity real viability over the long term.

Yah know what? If I had the misfortune of being an early Christian and offered a chance to either keep the faith humble or transform it into a state religion, I would have taken my chances. (It’s “misfortune” because I hate the smell of livestock and I love soap.) If a faith or code can’t survive without being propped up by an empire, it doesn’t deserve to survive. If it’s a faith, one should, you know, have. . . faith. . . in it.

You have a good four centuries of Christianity as central to European life. Try blaming modernity instead - that’s a lot more plausible.

If just the new toys and lifestyle of the modern day were the cause of European church attendance decline, we’d have seen a similar decline in the U.S. On the contrary, we love us some church here. Though quality thereof varies.

Comment #86: No One of Consequence  on  06/22  at  03:33 PM

You are projecting your socio-economic and class insecurities onto people who live in poverty in this country and who do so for a variety of reasons, none of which indicate they don’t know you tip the fucking waitress. God, I have never gotten so angry at a commentor here.  This attitude makes me sick.

I merely said it was entirely possible that some people don’t go out to eat very often and simply don’t understand prevailing mores. Not that this translates to all poor or all working class but perhaps people whose only experience going out is limited to group events such as a post-church outing. You seem to take these things very personally, and perhaps I’m projecting my own perspective (I’ve failed to tip people when I didn’t know it was a prevailing custom to tip those particular service workers because I had never retained their services before), but I’m simply wary of immediately leaping to an “actively malicious” conclusion. In fact, I’m starting to think that you’re the one with the problem, getting viciously angry and assuming malicious behavior on the part of those who are poor/non-tippers because you think they’re “out to get you,” rather than simply not having the same norms you do (norms which are mistaken, of course).

Tyro, you are full of crap.  Everybody I ever knew who waited tables hated waiting on the wealthy people because they tended to stiff on tips.

Maybe I am full of crap. But I never said that “wealthy people tip well.” I simply gave a reason that certain classes of people might tip poorly. How do wealthy people tip? I guess I’d have to talk to someone who works in high-end food service. But that’s not what I was speculating about.

Well, coming in late, but one of my pet peeves is that right-wing radio is dominated by advertising for “buy gold” or get-rich-quick schemes that are preposterous on their face.

It was really a revelation to me when I realized that I could gain an understanding of the audience of a TV or radio show based on what kind of ads were being broadcast.

Comment #87: Tyro  on  06/22  at  03:53 PM

Just a note. Last week, Athens had its yearly visit from some big Methodist group. I don’t know if they’re simply a Georgia group, a Southern group or a national organization - I’ve been cleaning house all day and got stoned before reading this, so I’m in no condition to look it up - but the town was full of ‘em from Tuesday morning to Thursday evening. Every Downtown business loves ‘em. Nice people, excellent tippers. On the other hand, the Jesus biker people will leave the fake sawbucks and Chick tracts in lieu of a couple of bucks for the waitron who put up with their table of 8. Go figure.

Comment #88: Matt T.  on  06/22  at  06:52 PM

Tyro - I’m going to go with a milder version of you’re full of crap.  The poor definitely know how to tip.  Like the wealthy, they have to come up with reasons not to.  It may be easier (I’m broke!) but they still know what they’re doing.

Comment #89: Kyso K  on  06/22  at  08:50 PM

Um, Tyro, does it cross your mind that poorer people who are less likely to eat out often—are far more likely either to work in services where tips are expected, or be related to or close friends with someone who does?

They’d not only know the “prevailing norms,” they’d know the reasons wait staff hope these norms are more or less met all too keenly.

As it happens, I lived with a disabled person, who considered herself exempt from the obligation to tip because her means were limited. (As I usually paid when we went out this was something of a dead letter since I always tipped—and no, I wasn’t lording over her, because the income I paid from was paid via her, for being her care provider—I just accepted that if the pittance I was doled out was 50 percent more than what they expected her to survive on, it behooved me to pay more when we shared stuff. Besides I routinely ate a lot more than she did…) But she was quite aware that people normally tipped, had a good idea how much, and her adult daughter eventually worked mainly as wait staff.

The obnoxious thing about your just-so story, Tyro, is that you are accounting for a “fact” that you haven’t even established actually is one.

I alluded to the distorted attitudes our society (well, society with pretensions to middle-class status anyway, such as the one I was raised in) has regarding tipping earlier—that it is a bonus and an incentive, “To Insure Prompt Service” as I was told. (By a teacher, in a Catholic high school, actually). When in reality, we have huge categories of employers who are legally exempt from the minimal pay standards we do impose generally, on the theory that tipping will happen, enough to make up the difference and make the net take-home pay worthwhile. If a bit unpredictable! And I gather we also have rather bizarre tax policies to attempt to tax this otherwise inherently under-the-table (well, on top of it…) income, which at least as some restaurants implement it can add another layer of “screw-you!” to people who work hard at what can even be dangerous work. (I knew someone who had a permanent disability from a restaurant kitchen accident).

It’s a big lie, a lie middle-class people tell and are told, as so many of the manipulative lies we imbibe are, by omission and implication.

If we accept the reality of how our food service industry is organized, we have to accept that tipping is non-negotiable—it is part of the bill. If everyone agreed to that we’d probably also agree that it would be better to simply require all employers to meet the same minimum standards, let the nominal bill be higher to pay for it, and know our wait staff is getting paid reliably. Then we might play games with extra tips though I suppose that the norm would rather move toward abandoning the practice completely, as I gather it has done in New Zealand and perhaps Australia.

Tyro, your suggestion that your hypothetical ignorant indignants are one and the same with these Christian Sunday lunchers just gives more point to my essentially rhetorical questions earlier—if so, where the heck are the ministers and other leaders of these congregations, if not either educating their poor bewildered sheep or hitting up the richer members of the flock to pay their share and also the tips their poorer brethren can so ill afford to pay? Surely someone in these churches is wise to these worldly ways!

If they don’t want to patronize the working people who give them their lunches, well, perhaps they should be holding potlucks instead and not shelling out the Root of All Evil to restaurant owners either.

So yeah, if as a trend, church groups tip worse than the average, I think there is something a bit sinister going on there. Perhaps Jesus and the apostles would not go to diners in the first place—but if they did, I’m sure they’d pay not only fairly but generously. What’s the church people’s excuse?

Comment #90: Mark Foxwell  on  06/22  at  09:15 PM

Quite honestly, I’m appalled at some of you. If someone here on this thread had complained about the poor tipping habits the commenter claimed to have experienced from any sort of racial or ethnic group, you’d have all chalked it up to cultural/class ignorance from that group, adverse selection, or outright prejudice. But when I make the same logical inference about the poor tipping track record of certain Christians (that this is a habit borne of cultural/class ignorance/inexperience), you get crabby and make it seem like I’m the bad guy. So, no, not only am I not buying your claims, I’m pretty shocked at the fact that you’re quick to make a rather ignorant conclusion and get defensive when I argue that there are probably other factors in play other than someone’s religious background.

Comment #91: Tyro  on  06/22  at  10:46 PM

tyro, do you know how to read? people are talking about the wealthy not tipping well. who the hell are YOU talking about? do you think people with upper middle class + incomes and culture don’t know how restaurants work? seriously, who are you talking about? no hedging with ‘certain types’ of people. because i think you are not even understanding the comments here.

Comment #92: chibi  on  06/23  at  12:35 AM

On faking religious conviction.

There is no other way to do it.

Enjoy.

Comment #93: The Tim Channel  on  06/23  at  12:52 AM

In re tipping and the megachurches: I thought megachurches mostly appeal to people who are reasonably well off. No?

In any case, it shouldn’t be that hard to find people who are or used to be part of the non-tipping Christian sub-cultures and ask them what’s going on.

Comment #94: Nancy Lebovitz  on  06/23  at  04:55 AM

In re tipping and the megachurches: I thought megachurches mostly appeal to people who are reasonably well off. No?

No. A megachurch can get the desperate poor in with the wealthy. Whether or not any of the socioeconomic classes of the congregationalists is willing to tip may or may not be influenced by their megachurch-going-status. I do know of poor people who don’t tip because they don’t know any better.

Comment #95: No One of Consequence  on  06/23  at  06:39 AM
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