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Time Magazine surveys women’s rights and declares them a failure

I’m quite possibly the last person who cares to in the blogosphere to write about this appalling Time magazine celebration of purity balls, but I have to say that I’m not as surprised as I should be.  Time has decided to embrace a retrograde patriarchal agenda, and not of the soft patriarchal sense of assuming that women just name themselves after their husbands and hand-wringing articles about the horror of women who draw their own income, as bad as those things are.  No, we’re talking the patriarchy of the anti-choice movement, the adulteress-stoning kind.  The kind that treats the literal male ownership of women’s bodies as a cute, sentimental way to organize society.  That’s far to the right of even mainstream sexist society.  That’s to the right of guys who like to go to Hooters, and assholes who argue that women get paid less because they don’t work hard enough, what with the babies and all.  This is the third example in very recent memory of Time shilling for the idea that women should be treated like male property and severely punished if they stray from patriarchal sexual norms, which is enough to start getting past “sloppy journalism” into the “open agenda” territory. 

Egregious bullshit quotes that indicate not just sloppiness, but agenda:

The Abstinence Clearinghouse estimates there were more than 4,000 purity events across the country last year, with programs aimed at boys now growing even faster.


What they fail to tell you is that in the fundie world, boys don’t have “purity”, which is a word that describes an object that becomes ill-suited for use because of contamination.  Water and food are pure, and Ivory soap is pure.  Similarly, women are “pure” or “sullied”, i.e. not humans but fuckholes whose usability is determined by whether or not someone has already used the property.  For boys, they honor their agency by having integrity balls, where boys are chastened not to fuck someone else’s fuckhole in the same way you don’t wipe your ass with a hand towel and put it back. 

But this is an article where girls’ sexual self-agency is put in scare quotes, with the excuse being that they’re quoting some other article.  Scare quotes.  Girls (and women—-the first woman mentioned in the article is 18 years old) don’t have this “agency” that you speak of.

The one I see quoted everywhere:

So what, exactly, does all this ceremony achieve? Leave aside for a moment the critics who recoil at the symbols, the patriarchy, the very use of the term purity, with its shadow of stains and stigma. Whatever guests came looking for, they are likely to come away with something unexpected. The goal seems less about making judgments than about making memories.

A memory that reinforces not even a judgment exactly, but a social rule stating that men own women, and should be able to control their sexuality as they see fit.  But I like how the reporter Alexandra Silver says, “Leave aside” the patriarchal elements, which is like writing an article about Watergate and saying, “Leave aside the burglary and corruption, and let’s talk about G. Gordon Liddy’s tie.”  Of course,  I suppose that’s standard in journalism now.  “Leave aside the fact that Bush lied to get us into a war, and let’s talk about how he grins so charmingly at reporters.” 

Buried at the bottom of this article is some reluctant acceptance of the reality that all this is a farce in the face of much more sexually free society, but it seems wistful, all the same.  But I promised evidence that this is moving from “sloppy” to “agenda”, and here’s what I’m thinking.  Time magazine also celebrated the adulteress-stoning patriarchy in an article about crisis pregnancy centers that falsely stated that such centers offer support for women carrying pregnancies to term. They don’t; at best, you get some diapers and what they’re really hoping to push on you, a pamphlet explaining why you shouldn’t use contraception in the future to avoid another calamity pregnancy.  They were also the source of the myth about the “pregnancy pact”.  If you read the article—-including the blame put on the schools for offering day care services—-it’s clear that the implication of it is that when young women are promoted from the status of property to human beings, they act like complete heathens. 

This sort of sentimental bloviating on behalf of the patriarchy causes me no end of despair.  Sentimentality, along with religion, papers over more cruelty and abuse of human beings than you’d ever think possible.  The implication is that granting men control over women’s bodies results in a paradise of men spoiling their woman-pets, while controlling their behavior for their own good.  The reality is more like this.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:58 PM • (100) Comments

No, we’re talking the patriarchy of the anti-choice movement, the adulteress-stoning kind.  The kind that treats the literal male ownership of women’s bodies as a cute, sentimental way to organize society.

The Gilead kind, you mean.

Comment #1: The Opoponax  on  07/22  at  01:10 PM

On one hand, I think it’s way, way too late to get the genie of equal rights back into the bottle. But on the other, the Republicans sure are trying as hard as they can, and they sure do have a lot of people in positions of power to help them along…

Comment #2: Scott  on  07/22  at  01:18 PM

For boys, they honor their agency by having integrity balls, where boys are chastened not to fuck someone else’s fuckhole in the same way you don’t wipe your ass with a hand towel and put it back.
Since it’s all about not messing things up for FutureHusband, I’m kind of wondering if these people think that women don’t shower.

Comment #3: pepito  on  07/22  at  01:19 PM

Scott, all we need to do is look at Iran to see how backsliding is completely possible.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  01:21 PM

Pepito, my working theory is that Teh Ghey is something deeper and more magical than mere germs or dirt.  Straight men don’t hug each other, so in the dim world of wingnut logic, putting your penis where another man’s has been—-no matter how clean the vagina—-makes you Ghey through the transitive properties of Teh Ghey.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  01:24 PM

You don’t even have to go that far.  All you really have to do is look at the status women in the 20’s-WW2 had, as compared to the postwar years.  Yes, it can happen.  It has happenned before.  Of course, the heartening part of that is that those independent women of the first half of the 20th centuriy had daughters and granddaughters who were NOT going to stand for the Father Knows Best treatment.  And they became the second wave feminists.

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  07/22  at  01:26 PM

I believe that a strong component of this sort of thinking is just a fascination with sex.  Many many people like to think about sex, and thinking about virginity and purity is just a mechanism for that.  If your culture says it’s wrong to be interested in sex, you can be interested in virginity.  Do not ask me what these people are thinking about when they take 6-year-old girls to these purity things, I’m blocking that out of my head, thank you very much.

I think a harmful component of this in addition to what Amanda addresses is that they’ve created an environment in which these girls are told that they need to be obsessing over sex and thinking about it all the time.  It’s fine for young women to think about sex, or to think about it all the time, but they should come to it freely, not because there’s this cultural construct that is constantly telling them “think about sex, think about sex, think about sex, think about sex, think about sex”.  Especially when the thinking about sex is done in really creepy and appalling ways.

I wish like anything that there had been purity clubs when I was in high school, though.  If you’re sitting in this room with a mixed group, and all of you are talking about abstaining from sex and how to get the strength to abstain from sex, and how to fight temptation and keep yourself pure, it’s got to be pretty easy to make something happen.  No wonder so many people who sign purity pledges fall off the wagon.

Comment #7: Mike Toreno  on  07/22  at  01:26 PM

It’s not too late to get the genie back in; it just takes a LOT of effort, which fortunately the user wing of the GOP haven’t wanted to do for fear of bringing the wrath of the placated majority. Make no mistake, the fundies and other misogynists won’t rest until they get their way or are driven back under their rocks as they were in the time between Scopes and the first Reagan campaign. Silver is their useful idiot, soft-pedalling their ideas for the public like some idiot leftist in Stalin’s Russia.
I am particularly appalled by the “making memories” angle that Silver pushes. As if fathers are incapable of being a part of their daughters’ lives without bringing sex into it. Can’t they just take their (in the relationship, not proprietary sense) girls out somewhere? Debutantes’ balls by comparison are practically revolutionary (the object of that ritual being to introduce your daughter into adult society, for the purposes of marriage natch).
And what’s with the sociopathicly young girls there? Those dads are just aching to marry off their girls at 11 or so.

Comment #8: histrogeek  on  07/22  at  01:30 PM

Just remember men: if you have a daughter it is your job to swat away menacing penises like some cock obsessed Patrick Roy.

http://thesebastards.blogspot.com/

Comment #9: Matthew  on  07/22  at  01:36 PM

Do not ask me what these people are thinking about when they take 6-year-old girls to these purity things, I’m blocking that out of my head, thank you very much.

Probably the same thing that a more progressive parent thinks when giving his or her 6-year-old girl the sex talk.  The assumption is that kids run off and have sex at such a young age that if you don’t get your opinions in their heads fast, you never will.

Ultimately, I think Amanda is making a mountain out of a molehill here.  If you think parental over-protectionism is going to vanish when they outlaw or stigmatize purity balls, you’re nuts.  If you think even the most progressive father doesn’t stay up at night when his daughter goes off to prom, you’re hopelessly naive.  Families that go nuts over sex weren’t the most stable to begin with.  Families that practice the hypocrisy of “sex for me, but not for thee” are happy to extend the protection to their own kids regardless of gender.  I can’t tell you how many of my friends and sisters’ friends come from so-called “conservative” families with parents that have ultimately resigned themselves to their little girls being boinked regularly.  Guy or girl, the general response I usually hear about is just “Oh thank god you’re not gay.”

That said, there is a certain stigma about sex in the more conservative communities - that it is a violent, vile, mindless, selfish act - and it turns every loving couple into rapist and victim.  If you think guys somehow escape that stigma - that they aren’t repeatedly condemned for having a penis or broken down for having “impure” thoughts of their own - you’re ignorant.  Guys don’t have it any easier.  There isn’t this secret backslapping going on among the 60-year-old men at the ultra-conservative Baptist Churches when little Timmy runs off and spills his wild oats.  Every aspect of sex is reviled, and the sacrament of marriage merely serves as a band-aid on the gapping wound of sin that is intercourse.

This is a rather deeply rooted cultural issue in regards to sex.  It’s not about misogyny or patriarchy nearly as much as it is about fear of strong emotions and uncontrollable urges.  It is rooted in authoritarianism in so far as it is rooted in a frustration over being unable to achieve self-discipline, and gender doesn’t factor in nearly as much as you think.  Purity Balls are one more rather pathetic attempt by parents to scour 2 billion years of breeding instincts from their children.  It won’t work any more than it worked when the Puritans tried it 300 years ago.  And its not any more emotionally scarring than anything else a kid in a hyper-religious family will be required to endure.

Comment #10: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  01:46 PM

The Gilead kind, you mean.

YES, LIKE IN THE MARGARET ATWOOD NOVEL THE HANDMAID’S TALE. IT WAS A GOOD BOOK THAT I READ, AND THEREFORE UNDERSTAND THAT SUBTLE REFERENCE.

Comment #11: (clever reference)  on  07/22  at  01:53 PM

Not sure how one can overboard about a father handing over a chastity (belt) “key” to the future husband

Comment #12: Rob  on  07/22  at  01:55 PM

Purity balls are not about protectiveness, which of course all parents feel. They are equating good parenting to controlling their daughters. More seriously, they infantilize women. The telling symbol is that the key to the girl’s purity is handed from father to husband (kind of like getting a car from the dealership with less paperwork). The daughter never has possession of her own ‘purity’. Boys may be upbraided for lustfulness and for screwing around, but there is no symbol of a boy’s ‘integrity’ being passed from one person to another. They are human sinners, not used or mint-condition property.
Nope, phobias about sex, especially one’s children having it, are only a part of the purity ball ritual. It really is about possession of daughters.

Comment #13: histrogeek  on  07/22  at  02:02 PM

“It’s not about misogyny or patriarchy nearly as much as it is about fear of strong emotions and uncontrollable urges.”

Patriarchy and misogyny have ALWAYS been wrapped up in these very issues. In the minds of fundamentalists, women and girls are the id, males (esp. fathers) are the superego.

Comment #14: Cass  on  07/22  at  02:09 PM

If you think parental over-protectionism is going to vanish when they outlaw or stigmatize purity balls, you’re nuts.

So the continued existence of stupid and destructive human impulses means that it’s a totally cool idea to celebrate and institutionalize those impulses?

This is a rather deeply rooted cultural issue in regards to sex.  It’s not about misogyny or patriarchy nearly as much as it is about fear of strong emotions and uncontrollable urges.

Because it’s not like misogyny or patriarchy are deeply rooted cultural issues that have a lot to do with fear of strong emotions and uncontrollable urges.

Comment #15: dan  on  07/22  at  02:10 PM

This is a rather deeply rooted cultural issue in regards to sex.  It’s not about misogyny or patriarchy nearly as much as it is about fear of strong emotions and uncontrollable urges.

Hmm. And yet these fears seem to be expressed through misogyny and patriarchy over and over again, all around the world.

Comment #16: annejumps  on  07/22  at  02:11 PM

Time Magazine is going to end up blocking my emails, because this article sent me into a complete tizzy.  I have already sent them two letters.  I am a subscriber but at this point I do not plan to renew.  There is so, so much wrong with this article.
 
Like if you’re not all up in your little girl’s vagina, you mustn’t be an “involved dad.”  Dads are either negligent or “the protector of her purity.”

Facts and social science be damned!  Don’t those little ones look cute in their fancy dresses!?  A coercive pact about purity and sex and boys and keys won’t hurt.

Oh yeah.  Some children are boys.

Comment #17: SarahMC  on  07/22  at  02:14 PM

Zifnab25, I think many people are at peace with the idea of parental overprotectiveness. Many of them are also aware of and accepting of the fact that some parents might have very conservative ideas about sex that they wish to impart to their children.

What’s freaking people out here is the fetishization of that protectiveness in the form of quasi-sexual “purity balls” and all of the creepiness that entails.

Comment #18: Tyro  on  07/22  at  02:19 PM

“This is the third example in very recent memory of Time shilling for the idea that women should be treated like male property and severely punished if they stray from patriarchal sexual norms, which is enough to start getting past “sloppy journalism” into the “open agenda” territory.”

What’s that old war saw? ‘Once is accident, twice is coincidence, but third time is enemy action’.

Comment #19: kodiak  on  07/22  at  02:22 PM

The telling symbol is that the key to the girl’s purity is handed from father to husband (kind of like getting a car from the dealership with less paperwork). The daughter never has possession of her own ‘purity’.  Boys may be upbraided for lustfulness and for screwing around, but there is no symbol of a boy’s ‘integrity’ being passed from one person to another.

Boys, traditionally, don’t have to worry about being raped.  Again, it goes back to viewing sex as this violent and animalistic event.  The girl needs a chastity belt to protect her from people who aren’t her betrothed grabbing her up and forcing themselves on her.  The passing of key from father to husband represents the passing of the duty of protecting the daughter’s sexual safety.

There is no such symbol for guys because it is assumed the only reason a guy would have sex would be because he chose to have it.  If a girl walks into a frat house and loses her virginity, she can cry rape.  If a guy walks into a sorority and makes the same claim, he’d be laughed at.

I think you’re reading too much into the hyper-protectionization element and coming out with the impression that every father at the purity ball is some sort of horse trader looking to hawk his daughter for a quick buck.  I’m not agreeing that purity balls are effective or even particularly productive.  But I think you’re taking misguided intentions of a great many fathers and reading them as these evil patriarchal dictations.

Comment #20: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  02:23 PM

Just remember men: if you have a daughter it is your job to swat away menacing penises like some cock obsessed Patrick Roy.

This would make an awesome Flash game…

Comment #21: Scott  on  07/22  at  02:24 PM

If you think even the most progressive father doesn’t stay up at night when his daughter goes off to prom, you’re hopelessly naive.

oh, please. My dad has never cared about what sex i’m having, ever. he drove me to prom and didn’t stay up worrying about what was going on w/ my pussy. (which in fact was nothing)

my mother (still liberal, but more conservative than my dad) became more worried when i started having boyfriends, i think her parents instilled this idea in her that when ppl have sex, the boy somehow HURTS the girl… i never did understand that. when she started getting all obsessed w/ my sex life i was sad for her, because it seemed maybe sex hurt her if she was so worried it was gonna hurt me… (and in fact, she has been raped, which may be a part of it?)

Comment #22: casey  on  07/22  at  02:30 PM

Probably the same thing that a more progressive parent thinks when giving his or her 6-year-old girl the sex talk.  The assumption is that kids run off and have sex at such a young age that if you don’t get your opinions in their heads fast, you never will.

Uh, my mom gave me the sex talk at 6 because i ASKED…. i’m pretty sure she didn’t think i was gonna go have sex anytime soon.

Comment #23: casey  on  07/22  at  02:36 PM

The passing of key from father to husband represents the passing of the duty of protecting the daughter’s sexual safety.

Ah yes, the protecting of women: from men, by men.  Almost as though women were deemed objects and not agents.  Tell me again how this isn’t about patriarchy.  I’m having such fun watching you flounder.

Comment #24: Em  on  07/22  at  02:38 PM

casey, you are an exception when it comes to your father’s attitude. Zifnab25, however, seems to have no experience with socially conservative parents, because none of the ones I know would ever, ever, ever participate in such a weird, creepy, sexualized ritual. The thing about conservative sexuality is that it is something which is not discussed. Because you don’t talk about those things. Except a few times when necessary.

Yes, my father and my sister spent “quality time” together, but it usually involved going to Home Depot.

Comment #25: Tyro  on  07/22  at  02:39 PM

If a girl walks into a frat house and loses her virginity, she can cry rape.

Zifnab25, another fauxgressive asshole.

Comment #26: Nobody in Particular  on  07/22  at  02:47 PM

Ah yes, the protecting of women: from men, by men.  Almost as though women were deemed objects and not agents.

Almost as though women were deemed 100 pounds smaller than the men that they needed to be protected from.  Come on, dude.  I knew plenty of girls who would demand I walk them home after dark because they were afraid of being attacked.  This had absolutely nothing to do with them suffering from self-loathing or viewing themselves as objects and everything to do with the drunken frat guys wandering the streets on a Friday night.

Zifnab25, however, seems to have no experience with socially conservative parents, because none of the ones I know would ever, ever, ever participate in such a weird, creepy, sexualized ritual.

I know a number of girls who went to purity balls.  Their parents weren’t evil ogres trying to shoe-horn their daughters into 1950s stereotypes.  They tried to teach their kids abstinence.  And when they failed they threw up their hands, blamed schools and rap music, and then plead ignorance to their kids’ sexual exploits ever after.

You’re reading way too much perversion into these things and you’re building up this ridiculous mental image that is going to bite you in the ass in the future.

Comment #27: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  02:49 PM

she can cry rape

That says all we need to know about Zifnab25.  Ignore the fucker.

Comment #28: keshmeshi  on  07/22  at  02:49 PM

<blockquote>I know a number of girls who went to purity balls.  Their parents weren

Comment #29: Auguste  on  07/22  at  02:53 PM

I know a number of girls who went to purity balls. Their parents weren’t evil ogres trying to shoe-horn their daughters into 1950s stereotypes.

No, they were creepy people who were sexualizing abstinence by turning it into a public fetish.

Zifnab25, one can simultaneously both understand and sympathize (or even agree!) with social conservatism and over-protectivenes with respect to their children’s sexuality and also find these ceremonies to be unreasonable and slightly perverted.

Comment #30: Tyro  on  07/22  at  02:53 PM

All men outweigh all women by 100 lbs.?  What an amazing heretofore unknown fact of human physiology.

Comment #31: Em  on  07/22  at  02:53 PM

<blockquote>she can cry rape

That says all we need to know about Zifnab25.  Ignore the fucker. </blockquote>

Am I wrong?  Did I state the stereotype incorrectly?  Are you claiming that rape doesn’t occur on college campuses?  Or are you claiming that a girl who loses her virginity never loses it to rape?  Or are you questioning whether a girl who has been raped is allowed to mention it?

I know UT has a serious rape problem and I know girls who have been the victim of it.  I know some who’ve come forward and some who haven’t and I’ve seen the various responses from police and communities.

But I’ve never in my entire life seen a guy complain about being raped, much less raped at a party full of girls after he got drunk.

The reason girls have chastity belts and guys don’t is because guys are expected to be able to defend themselves from an attack and girls are not.  There’s no grand conspiracy, just the law of averages.  Guys are bigger, thus girls are the ones who need protection.

Comment #32: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  02:57 PM

Oh, so they’re not creepy, just fucking idiots?

Yes.

Comment #33: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  02:58 PM

casey, you are an exception when it comes to your father’s attitude.

Really? most fathers are obsessed with their daughter’s sex lives?  creepy

Comment #34: casey  on  07/22  at  03:01 PM

OMG Zifnab25 - you really need Feminism101.

Comment #35: SarahMC  on  07/22  at  03:03 PM

With adolescence entering our household, I wonder more and more about the motivations of parents who indulge in this insanity.  I see a couple of threads:

1) control of children who are increasingly not controllable
2) extension of childhood for fetishisitic or inappropriately selfish reasons

It really isn’t unlike the Irish Travellers who, faced with urban resettlement and free-roaming adolescents, began marrying their kids off younger and younger until the girls and boys were being wed at insanely young ages.  Ditto for resettled Hmong immigrants in major urban cities who did the same.  This is a maladaptive response to a world that the parents cannot control and know they cannot control, yet don’t know how to cope with in constructive ways.  They then try to control their children’s sexual agency in bizarre ways, like early marriage or it’s symbolic cousin the purity ball.  They lack the knowledge and understanding - or even the cognitive hardware to understand that telling kids more about sex is the most effective method of getting them to delay sex and to be selective and safe about their sexuality once they do partake.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  07/22  at  03:04 PM

Come back and join the discussion after you’ve rid yourself of your hero complex.

Comment #37: Em  on  07/22  at  03:04 PM

Almost as though women were deemed 100 pounds smaller than the men that they needed to be protected from. [...] This had absolutely nothing to do with them suffering from self-loathing or viewing themselves as objects and everything to do with the drunken frat guys wandering the streets on a Friday night.

...who viewed the girls as objects and therefore “fair game”, right? I mean, unless those drunken frat guys were also beating up every male they came across, there must be some reason to assume they would attack every woman. Generally, the reasons come down to some combination of “because they can physically”, “because they can get away with it legally”, and “because they feel they have a right to…how”?  Sociopathically? Dickishly? What exactly “causes” that sense of entitlement…other than the unspoken rule that women somehow “don’t count” or aren’t really “people” in the “don’t treat people like shit” sense of the word?

Come on, dude.  I knew plenty of girls who would demand I walk them home after dark because they were afraid of being attacked.

Dude, can you not see the difference between an adult female requesting (much less demanding!) “male protection from all other males” in a parituclar situation and a 12-year-old girl being taught that she needs to be constantly “protected” from every male she will encounter during the rest of her natural life? Seriously?

Comment #38: Dorothy  on  07/22  at  03:17 PM

Going along through the article:

Some academic skeptics make a practical objection: The majority of kids who make a virginity pledge, they argue, will still have sex before marriage but are less likely than other kids to use contraception, since that would involve planning ahead for something they have promised not to do. This puts them at risk for sexually transmitted diseases. To which defenders say: Teen pledgers typically do postpone having sex, have fewer partners, get pregnant less often and if they make it through high school as virgins, are twice as likely to graduate from college—so where’s the downside?

Does anyone know where they get this? Cause it sounds like some statistically cherrypicked bullshit, but I’d like to know for certain.

Comment #39: dan  on  07/22  at  03:19 PM

“There’s no grand conspiracy, just the law of averages.  Guys are bigger, thus girls are the ones who need protection.” 

Zifnab25, you’re confusing the issue of personal agency, which is the point here, with the issue of what populations are most at risk from sexual violence. These are very, very different ideas.

Also, you’re shockingly ignorant of the history of chastity belts.

Comment #40: Cass  on  07/22  at  03:21 PM

Zifnab25, would there not be some advantage involved in telling men not to have sex with women, so that those men do not become those people that women need protection from?

Plus, I fail to see what purity balls have to do with girls needing “protection” from predators.

Comment #41: Tyro  on  07/22  at  03:22 PM

Am I wrong?  Did I state the stereotype incorrectly?  Are you claiming that rape doesn’t occur on college campuses?  Or are you claiming that a girl who loses her virginity never loses it to rape?  Or are you questioning whether a girl who has been raped is allowed to mention it?

You said, “If a girl walks into a frat house and loses her virginity, she can cry rape.”  You basically said that women routinely lie about being raped, to the point that if they get drunk at a frat house and lose their virginity, they can “cry rape” and not have to face the consequences.

Do you really not understand what you’ve been saying, or do you realize you’ve been caught and now you’re desperately trying to backtrack and pretend you didn’t say what you clearly said?

Comment #42: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  03:23 PM

Exactly, Tyro.  Purity Balls aren’t about protecting girls from rapists.

Comment #43: SarahMC  on  07/22  at  03:25 PM

Does anyone know where they get this? Cause it sounds like some statistically cherrypicked bullshit, but I’d like to know for certain.

My guess is that it’s like the way Charles Colson was getting such great statistics with his prison program:  they kick you out if you stop following the rules.  So most of the kids who take virginity pledges break them, but that small percentage that sticks by them doesn’t get pregnant, so virginity pledges work!  (for a small percentage of those who take them, but let’s not mention that part too loudly)

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  03:26 PM

Zif, you’re beating a strawman.  I’m not talking about “parental overprotection”.  I’m talking about telling your daughter she’s nothing but a fuckhole that’s value is based on whether or not she’s used or not.  That’s not protection.  That’s misogyny.  I’m beginning to think these fundies read about the Old Testament patriarchy where you had a right to sell your daughter into slavery and think that sounds like it’s a great right to have.  Sure, they pat themselves on the back because they think they’d be too good to use it, but they’d like to have the right anyway.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  03:27 PM

Oh, just saw the “cry rape” thing.  Yeah, he’s a misogynist pretending to be reasonable.  They never hide their agenda long, do they?  Time does a better job.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  03:29 PM

...who viewed the girls as objects and therefore “fair game”, right? I mean, unless those drunken frat guys were also beating up every male they came across, there must be some reason to assume they would attack every woman.

Dorothy, you beat me to it.  And said it much better than I could have.

Comment #47: ks  on  07/22  at  03:33 PM

I will defend this one small part of what Zif was saying:

It is true that if you start oppressing both girls and boys equally, you end up fucking the boys up in some pretty major ways.  Read some of the lives of Victorians sometime and you’ll see some incredibly fucked-up men who couldn’t enjoy a normal sex life.  There’s a reason that S&M;was so popular in Victorian porn and Victorian brothels.

The fact that the fundies want to screw with the heads of boys and girls equally and give them all screwed-up attitudes towards sex and one another is not a mitigating factor in their favor.  In fact, it makes them even worse if they’re planning to ruin the lives of all of their children and not just the girls.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  03:39 PM

Zif, for starters I’m a blackbelt, so as to needing protection from men, ha ha.  Guess you did not read about the woman on a dark trail at a university recently who fought off several attackers successfully and hurt them so bad they tried to press charges.  Also, my dad did not need a purity ball to convince him to try to ‘protect’ me and I pity any father who would need this nudge.  The fact is that you can’t always be there to protect your kids, and if you teach them that the only way they can be protected is for you or their husband to do it, you are going to have a very insecure and unhappy adult on your hands when her father dies, husband leaves or goes to rehab, etc.  Also, please do not trivialize sexual assault against men.  I do know men who have been the victims of attempted assaulted - one thought an acquaintence was just trying to help him get home and he was drunk.  Many experts feel this is a very underreported crime because of attitudes like yours.  There are many victims out there who already feel alone enough without you discounting their existence.

Comment #49: bmc90  on  07/22  at  03:46 PM

You basically said that women routinely lie about being raped, to the point that if they get drunk at a frat house and lose their virginity, they can “cry rape” and not have to face the consequences.

No, I said that a woman has the option.  People will believe her.  She is credible if she makes that claim.

Zifnab25, would there not be some advantage involved in telling men not to have sex with women, so that those men do not become those people that women need protection from?

Absolutely.  That is why the other half of the wacko Christian equation is to teach men to hate their penises.

Dude, can you not see the difference between an adult female requesting (much less demanding!) “male protection from all other males” in a parituclar situation and a 12-year-old girl being taught that she needs to be constantly “protected” from every male she will encounter during the rest of her natural life? Seriously?

A difference of degrees, yes.  One is logical, the other is paranoid.

I’m not talking about “parental overprotection”.  I’m talking about telling your daughter she’s nothing but a fuckhole that’s value is based on whether or not she’s used or not.

Amanda, that’s where I think you’re drawing the wrong conclusion.  I don’t think the Purity Ball is - intentionally or unintentionally - treating women like fuckholes.  I think it is an - ultimately misguided - attempt to protect a girl from reality.  The assumption is that sex is bad, the world is bad, and only by locking your daughter away can you keep her safe.  Keeping her from having sex is given the same sort of seriousness as keeping her from being crippled or shot.

Is the idea stupid?  Yes.  Is it misogynistic?  I honestly don’t agree.

Comment #50: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  03:50 PM

Keeping her from having sex is given the same sort of seriousness as keeping her from being crippled or shot.

Sure, but they don’t have quasi-sexualized ceremonies dedicated to telling girls to wear their seatbelts and not to go walking around dangerous neighborhoods.

One can argue about whether one thinks it’s appropriate to stress abstinence before marriage to teenage children. That issue is tangential to this particular discussion. What people are weirded out about is the creepiness of the ceremony. The ceremony is itself dripping with patriarchal imagery of things like ownership and the idea that one’s value to one’s father and thus to one’s husband is embedded in one’s virginity. You may look at this and think that it’s all an acceptable “means to an end.” We think that the means are pretty darn creepy.

That is why the other half of the wacko Christian equation is to teach men to hate their penises.

Where’s the ceremony with their mothers where they discuss their penes?

Comment #51: Tyro  on  07/22  at  03:56 PM

“Boys, traditionally, don’t have to worry about being raped.”

Yet boys are the favored target for pedophiles since boys won’t speak about being molested for fear of being labeled gay. Boys are likely far more often raped by pedophiles but don’t report. It’s drastically unreported but odds are for each girl that becomes a victim for a pedophile there may be a hundred or two hundred boys.

Comment #52: tootiredoftheright  on  07/22  at  03:59 PM

Zifnab25, you are so out of touch with women’s lived experiences it’s unreal.  Please stop attempting to drop knowledge on our heads.

Comment #53: SarahMC  on  07/22  at  04:00 PM

Another thing that kind of leapt out at me from the article—

Kylie talks with an unblinking confidence about a promise that she says is spiritual, mental and physical. “It’s something I’m very proud of. I plan to keep pure until marriage. It’s a promise I made to myself—not pressure from my parents,” she says.

I would love for someone to ask that girl what that will make her after her marriage.

Comment #54: dan  on  07/22  at  04:04 PM

The assumption is that sex is bad, the world is bad, and only by locking your daughter away can you keep her safe.  Keeping her from having sex is given the same sort of seriousness as keeping her from being crippled or shot.

And yet, when done properly with a barrier method of birth control and the full knowledge and enthusiastic consent of all involved, sex, even sex among teenaged participants, does not have the side effect of physical mobility impairment (we called them “mobility impaired” these days, as “crippled” is a hate-word to describe physically disabled people) and/or death.

Comparing teenagers having sex to teenagers being in a physically debilitating accident or suffering a gunshot wound is like comparing apples to oranges.  One is a normal, healthy part of being human.  The others are tragic occurrences that sometimes happen through extreme negligence, inadvertence, or grave lapse in judgment on the part of one or more of the parties.

Comment #55: Mezosub  on  07/22  at  04:08 PM

I would love for someone to ask that girl what that will make her after her marriage.

Oh, she’ll still be “pure” dan, because she’ll have the blessing of Gawd for a godstick to enter her shame cave. What would be interesting is if she gets divorced, then what? How much has her value depreciated during her marriage, seeing as for her next husband there still would have been a penis in there that wasn’t his (you know, if he’s worried about the transitive powers of teh Gay).

Comment #56: UltraMagnus  on  07/22  at  04:10 PM

You basically said that women routinely lie about being raped, to the point that if they get drunk at a frat house and lose their virginity, they can “cry rape” and not have to face the consequences.

No, I said that a woman has the option.  People will believe her.  She is credible if she makes that claim.

So, besides being a sexist cobag, you never read anything about rape trials? ‘Cause I’ve never heard of any of them that sounded like they were picnics for the women involved…

Comment #57: Scott  on  07/22  at  04:11 PM

Guess you did not read about the woman on a dark trail at a university recently who fought off several attackers successfully and hurt them so bad they tried to press charges.

Ohh, link, please? That sounds awesome.  smile

Comment #58: Scott  on  07/22  at  04:12 PM

Those statistics on teen pledgers have to be dodgy. Who are they comparing teen pledgers with? They don’t say. The national average? These teen pledgers are also much more likely to not be representative of the national average, being from upper middle class homes in rural areas or good suburbs. Also their parents are self-selected as sex-obsessed, overly protective parents, probably also embedded in a strong and resilient community (the church). I’m sure the girls don’t fare anywhere near as well when compared with their statistical equivalents - upper middle class private schoolgirls from “good” homes. And I bet the word “white” could be slipped in there quite a bit too.

Comment #59: flashheart  on  07/22  at  04:14 PM

Where’s the ceremony with their mothers where they discuss their penes?

I think its the one where the mom finds the porno mag under the bed and proceeds to beat the living shit out of her son.

Zifnab25, you are so out of touch with women’s lived experiences it’s unreal.  Please stop attempting to drop knowledge on our heads.

I’m giving you an alternative perspective that isn’t draped in the “It looks icky, so I’m going to call you a freak” mentality.  The purity ball is made intentionally appealing.  The fathers aren’t rounding up their daughters into cattle pens and branding them.  I can’t think of a more gentle way of a father telling his daughter, “You having sex freaks me out”.

But whatever.  You win.  Clearly I’m a horrible misogynistic bastard for not seeing the brutal sadism involved.

Comment #60: Zifnab25  on  07/22  at  04:17 PM

clearly

Comment #61: casey  on  07/22  at  04:33 PM

I can’t think of a more gentle way of a father telling his daughter, “You having sex freaks me out”.

Why SHOULD a father tell his daughter that?  Gently or not?  WTF.

Clearly I’m a horrible misogynistic bastard for not seeing the brutal sadism involved.

Yes, you are.

Comment #62: kac90b  on  07/22  at  04:36 PM

These events seem cruel in some layered way I can’t fully figure out yet. Certainly they feature an insidious symbolism more troubling even than their stated goal, sexual abstinence itself being a familiar, predictable objective of much of social and religious conservatism. The purity balls are an unusual, apparently innovative form of indoctrination. They are conducted not in the (in-a-sense) impersonal and bureaucratic atmosphere of school, or the (in-a-sense) inherently private domain of the home, but in an ostentatiously social setting that includes other like-minded families and seems clearly designed to evoke associations of elegance, romance, passion, and growing maturity, with all these themes being sublimated into an ideological and highly choreographed ritual. While the aesthetics of this concept must strike some girls as at least vaguely offensive, leading them to greater mistrust of conservative parental and religious values, they probably function for others as a brilliant peer pressure mechanism that simultaneously validates needs for community and interest in romance while appropriating and channeling those longings into habits of deference to family norms and generally to adult and community supervision and judgment of peer interactions.

Unlike many other practices opposing sex and female independence—I’m thinking, for instance, of abstinence pledges—this kind of event seems radically, pervasively hostile to adolescents’ needs to figure out their social identities with some experience of privacy. In particular, the fathers are being placed in a rigid, idealized role that can only further pressure the girls to modulate their feelings about their families into acceptable forms that allow them some comfort with and approval from the authority figures in their lives. Insofar as the purity ball is a template for broader parenting practices, then, it seems the girl’s thoughts and feelings about outside relationships (which must remain “pure”), and also about family relationships (since the father is the girl’s date) are being molded and monitored to a point where she feels almost absolutely controlled, perhaps more deeply than she knows how to recognize or name. She is performing and internalizing a submissive femininity while being told that doing so is the surest route to dignity and self-worth. Whatever love these fathers may feel for their daughters at some level, the fact remains that this kind of manipulation has nothing to do with respect.

Comment #63: mark  on  07/22  at  04:37 PM

People will believe her.  She is credible if she makes that claim.

Oh my!

Comment #64: annejumps  on  07/22  at  04:39 PM

I read a story by a Southerner who was invited to what she thought was a dance by a cute boy at her high school, only to discover that it was an abstinence event and a bunch of adults she didn’t know proceeded to ask her about the future tenants of her vagina.  She managed to get away without having to take the pledge, but it was still bizarre to her that total strangers were so fascinated with her genitals and her plans for them.

So, yeah, there’s something weird and creepy about adults demanding that a child or teenager publicly declare what her plans are for her sexual future, even if you dress it up in frills and pretend it’s a bonding moment for father and daughter.

Comment #65: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  05:03 PM

The purity ball is made intentionally appealing.  The fathers aren’t rounding up their daughters into cattle pens and branding them.  I can’t think of a more gentle way of a father telling his daughter, “You having sex freaks me out”.

So if a father molests his daughter, but he’s gentle about it and doesn’t hurt her and even makes sure she finds it pleasurable, that’s okay?

And, yes, I think that parents being overly intrusive into their childrens’ sex lives and trying to control when they have sex and who they have sex with is a form of sexual abuse.  You’re trying to control something that by rights belongs to the child, not to you.

Comment #66: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  05:05 PM

What they fail to tell you is that in the fundie world, boys don’t have “purity”...

For what it’s worth, the biggest boy band in the universe, the Jonas Brothers, wear purity rings, and they do use the word “purity” in reference to themselves (Also see HuffPo and YouTube.)

Not that I’m defending the trend —I think it’s creepy, too.  But I think the owned are the flock and the owners are the religious right.

Comment #67: Steve M.  on  07/22  at  05:08 PM

I wrote to TIME to ask what the difference was between the picture they have of the two guys feeling up their young daughters and the now-infamous shot of polygamist Warren Jeffs laying a not-very-fatherly kiss on a 12-year old.  Answer: the latter caused nation-wide outrage and ensured that Jeffs will remain in jail where he belongs.  The former causes TIME’s Nancy Gibbs to gush “Aaawwww, isn’t that cute!”

Comment #68: rdale  on  07/22  at  05:39 PM

If you think even the most progressive father doesn’t stay up at night when his daughter goes off to prom, you’re hopelessly naive.

hmm… my parents went up to the cottage that weekend and let my friends and I have the run of our house… two teenage couples on the edge of adulthood. My mom made sure that there were condoms in the bathroom (three boxes, all different brands, heh) and my dad gave me a vaguly worded talk about responsibility before they left.

I think that if parents believe that sex is icky or taboo it’s far more likely that they will pass on those beliefs (or even more extreme ones, due to poor wording/explainations) to their children. But for parents who realize that sex is normal and natural… well, they have less of a problem with it. Of course I have it on good authority that after dating all through highschool my parents had passed ‘home plate’ at least a year before their prom… which always has me laughing at the abstinence only crowd, my parents weren’t abstinent as teens but both have had a total of one sexual partner and have been married 40+ years, really messes with their minds when I tell them that.

Comment #69: kodiak  on  07/22  at  05:45 PM

I’d bet that my father stayed up at night when I went to prom.  Not because he was afraid I would have Teh Sex! but because he was afraid I’d get into a car accident since drunk-driving accidents around prom time were not uncommon in the 1980s.  But, then, my dad freely admits that he worries that horrible things will happen to us, his children.

It’s not that it’s not normal for parents to worry about their children.  It’s that it’s not normal for parents to worry more about them having sex than any other issue in their children’s lives.

Comment #70: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  05:57 PM

Maybe its marriage as an institution that needs to be looked at.  Right now in a lot of ways its society’s way of protecting women and children and making men responsible.  (yeah its a messed up economy that distributes its wages the way it does) Those are noble goals but it also forces both marriages partners into a purity pact that is kinda tough to uphold.  If people were free thorough their lives to have sex with someone they loved, and it wasn’t tied so heavily to property and money for support,  maybe the pressure and craziness that comes with pre-marital sex would go away. Just as control of women’s sex lives pre-marriage needs to be examined the sacrifices made post-marriage should be examined as well.

Comment #71: perry mason  on  07/22  at  06:01 PM

Zif, you really are obviously a misogynist.  You made your case in the margins, with you defending of a practice that teaches that women are male property to be disposed of as they see fit, and your belief that rape is something women make up for no reason at all other than we just suck and are terrible, subhuman creatures with no moral structure.  It’s impossible to have these beliefs without hating women, in the same way it’s impossible to believe that black people are mentally inferior without being a racist.  It’s a definitional thing.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/22  at  06:32 PM

I do find the whole thing creepy, but what makes this misogyny (let’s see if Zifnab25 gets it) are things like:

“They gave her a charm for her bracelet—a lock in the shape of a heart. Her father has the key. “On my wedding day, he’ll give it to my husband,” she explains. “It’s a symbol of my father giving up the covering of my heart, protecting me, since it means my husband is now the protector. He becomes like the shield to my heart, to love me as I’m supposed to be loved.”“

and

“Even with older teenagers, many of these families don’t believe in random dating but rather intentional dating, which typically begins with a young man’s asking a father for permission to get to know his daughter.”

See, this would still be a bit creepy if in the first both parents held the key to the girl’s heart and then gave the keys to her and her husband when they got married, but it wouldn’t necessarily be misogynous (if they did the same thing for their sons—note it’s a heart they have the keys to).
The same is true for the second bit—if the boy talked to both of the girl’s parents and the girl talked to both of the boy’s parents (or if there was one big confab) then it would be creepy but not misogynous.

Comment #73: JohnL  on  07/22  at  06:34 PM

No, I said that a woman has the option.  People will believe her.  She is credible if she makes that claim.

Well, this is interesting. People who claim women regularly lie about being raped rarely express envy for those women. I guess for people who are cripplingly ashamed of having sexual urges, the distinction between rape and consensual sex you feel ashamed of is anywhere from blurred to nonexistent. I’d be sympathetic if you were claiming only fundies felt this way, but since you seem to agree with them that women are lucky to have the “option” of lying about rape, I think you’re either a misogynist asshole or deeply, tragically confused about women’s experiences with sex and rape.

I think its the one where the mom finds the porno mag under the bed and proceeds to beat the living shit out of her son.

This tells me more than I ever needed to know about you.

Comment #74: junk science  on  07/22  at  07:10 PM

Word, JS.

Someone obviously had some trouble working through some Oedipal issues as a youngster, and is still acting out a pathological need for parental approval by encouraging other youngsters to seek parental approval at the cost of their sexual agency.

Very sad.

Comment #75: Mezosub  on  07/22  at  07:36 PM

Pepito, my working theory is that Teh Ghey is something deeper and more magical than mere germs or dirt.  Straight men don’t hug each other, so in the dim world of wingnut logic, putting your penis where another man’s has been—-no matter how clean the vagina—-makes you Ghey through the transitive properties of Teh Ghey.

Don’t knock the idea - I recall one person moaning to me that every boyfriend she had later came out of the closet as gay. EvilVaginallySpreadHomosexualCooties would explain that very well.

Comment #76: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/22  at  07:41 PM

The ceremony is itself dripping with patriarchal imagery of things like ownership and the idea that one’s value to one’s father and thus to one’s husband is embedded in one’s virginity.

*wince* Could we use the term “entangled” rather than “embedded”, please?

Comment #77: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/22  at  07:51 PM

“Don’t knock the idea - I recall one person moaning to me that every boyfriend she had later came out of the closet as gay. EvilVaginallySpreadHomosexualCooties would explain that very well”

What you never heard of guys breaking out of a relationship or trying not to get roped back into one claiming to be gay?

Methings there is more going on with that person then is being said.

Comment #78: tootiredoftheright  on  07/22  at  07:59 PM

Someone obviously had some trouble working through some Oedipal issues as a youngster, and is still acting out a pathological need for parental approval by encouraging other youngsters to seek parental approval at the cost of their sexual agency.

Obviously according to these neo-puritans nothing screams “healthy father-daughter relationship” like an Elektra Complex, which the hypothetical daughter will bring with her into a marriage. She’ll uphold her wifely Xtian duties by constantly seeking the approval of her patriarch-husband, and of course, she’ll never attain his approval. Where’s the fun in a misogynistic society if women ever successfully attained men’s approval and thus stopped seeking it because they’ve become secure and confident within themselves? Women and girls might develop high self-esteem and won’t center their lives around men’s opinions.

*wince* Could we use the term “entangled” rather than “embedded”, please?

Ha! I’ve lost count of all the subtle and not-so-subtle “fuckhole”- and vagina-references on this thread. It might as well be called The Vagina Monologues: Purity Ball Thesarus.

Comment #79: Pseudo-Adrienne  on  07/22  at  08:12 PM

Women and girls might develop high self-esteem and won’t center their lives around men’s opinions.

Bingo.  This is the message that is truly being conveyed at a purity ball.  The misogynists like to whine about how the ritual is all about fathers protecting their daughters, which is a bald-faced lie.  The ritual is all about girls being taught to seek male approval, in every aspect of their lives, up to and including their private sexual expressions.  They are being indoctrinated that without the approval of a father (figure), then a husband, they are worthless, degraded and subhuman, not worthy of basic dignity.

Comment #80: Mezosub  on  07/22  at  08:31 PM

Mezosub, well said. Also ... look at the photo Amanda has up of the two men getting ready to shake hands. It makes me think this whole thing is also largely being done to shore up the men’s egos and sense of themselves as Heads of Families at a time when so much of the country has abandoned that ideal and when they aren’t getting so much support for that self-concept in the mass media any more either.

Comment #81: mark  on  07/22  at  08:42 PM

Integrity is a positive virtue. Purity is a negative virtue. The girls are being told that their myriad achievements aren’t as important as their untouched vaginas. In other words, all that is expected or wanted in a girl is that she not allow a boy within 3 feet of her body, or be put in the 75% markdown bin. The boys are being encouraged in a more general way to take responsibility in life, and if they make a “mistake”, just pick up and keep on.

The father - daughter event in other settings is a good thing. And if the girl wants to wear a princess dress, fine. Take her to a fancy dinner and the symphony or ballet, if she likes performances. Even a dance is fine, as often done at weddings or bar/bat mitzvahs. Or dress down, and take her to the Zoo and an ice cream parlor. Or have an event honoring the “graduation” of the local Girl Scouts troop members to new levels or the year’s badges. Just don’t ick us out by taking her to an event where she pledges her sex life to Dad.

The effective way to have a daughter postpone sex to a time where she can handle it emotionally and with a degree of responsibility - is to give her responsibility in other areas, encourage her to achieve at something (not just school, but sports, chess, theater, maths puzzles, nature study, dog training, etc).

Comment #82: NancyP  on  07/22  at  08:49 PM

That’s to the right of guys who like to go to Hooters

Hey, there’s nothing wrong with that.

Comment #83: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/22  at  10:08 PM

What I find objectionable about purity balls is language wherein the father promises to “cover his daughter’s purity” until marriage.  “Covering” is the term used by stock breeders for a male animal mating with (and preferably impregnating) a female.  The only place I’ve seen it used in reference to human beings is at purity balls, and if the founders of these horrid things don’t know what it means (which I don’t believe for a minute since many of these events take place in areas with ranches and stock breeding), they should.

As for the idea of a father handing over the key to his daughter’s virginity to her husband on her wedding day…anyone who can’t see the misogyny and patriarchal bent of this is hopelessly naive.  A girl eventually grows up and becomes a woman, and women are adults.  And adults are supposed to decide for themselves when and where to have sex, without having a male relative handing over their virginity like it’s a physical object.


*full disclosure:  I’m the only child of a man who became a father fairly late in life (37).  My father adored me and protected me all his life, and he would have been HORRIFIED by the idea of purity balls.  He trusted me to make the right decisions…but then again, he wasn’t a fundamentalist Christian who trained me that my moral value was based on my hymen.

Comment #84: Ellid  on  07/22  at  10:14 PM

See, this would still be a bit creepy if in the first both parents held the key to the girl’s heart and then gave the keys to her and her husband when they got married, but it wouldn’t necessarily be misogynous (if they did the same thing for their sons—note it’s a heart they have the keys to).

So does that make Daddy the Keymaster and his little girl the Gatekeeper?  Eeeeewwww!

Comment #85: Mnemosyne  on  07/22  at  10:16 PM

Make that “cherished and worried about me” rather than “protected.”  Of course he couldn’t protect me every minute because, let’s face it, we weren’t glued at the hip.  But he still wouldn’t have liked or approved of purity balls because of the inherent creepy factor….

Comment #86: Ellid  on  07/22  at  10:19 PM

To which defenders say:

Gosh, whom do we believe:  scientists or right-wing angel-worshipping ideologues?


It’s a promise I made to myself—not pressure from my parents”

Oh, yeah, I’m sure it was all her idea, no pressure from Mom and Dad at all.


for starters I’m a blackbelt, so as to needing protection from men

Good.  But is that anywhere near the most common situation?

Comment #87: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/22  at  10:29 PM

...except that the food at Hooters is gawd-fucking-aweful…


Seriously, telling someone else- anyone else- that you OWN that person’s sexuality is a very messed up thing to do, regardless of your relationship.

Comment #88: Indy  on  07/22  at  10:30 PM

As for the idea of a father handing over the key to his daughter’s virginity to her husband on her wedding day…

Man oh man, what would be the first thing that passed through my mind if my wife-to-be’s father handed me the key to her “purity”?  Probably “Grow up, dude.”  That’s assuming if he was a funamentalist nutjob, I would already have found out.  Hopefully.

Comment #89: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/22  at  10:35 PM

JohnL, if both parents held the key and then gave it to her husband that would still be misogynistic unless the husband’s parents were also holding a little key for him.

(RJ at Bark/Bite (remember Bark/Bite?) suggested this, commenting on the Heart-to-Heart locket, a similar phenomenon: that instead of the father giving the key to her husband, he give it to her. Because it’s her sexuality, not his.)

Comment #90: Rebecca  on  07/22  at  10:48 PM

(Also, because I am immature and it would make the fundies squirm to think of it this way: haha, balls. raspberry)

Comment #91: Rebecca  on  07/22  at  10:50 PM

haha, balls

Huh huh!  You said “Balls”!  Huh huh huh!

Comment #92: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/22  at  11:04 PM

...except that the food at Hooters is gawd-fucking-aweful…

They have food at Hooters?

Comment #93: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/23  at  12:48 AM

Rebecca, my aside says… and if they do the same for their sons.

Comment #94: JohnL  on  07/23  at  01:50 AM

Oops, blasphemed too soon (I’m not sure if that is good or bad). Also, I said they give the keys to both her and her husband not just him (so in this weird set up, all parents keep a key for their children until they’re married).

Comment #95: JohnL  on  07/23  at  01:54 AM

JohnL, if both parents held the key and then gave it to her husband that would still be misogynistic unless the husband’s parents were also holding a little key for him.

And that’s crazy, because boys are just going to have sex, and we all know it—that’s why at integrity balls, boys don’t pledge to be chaste. They pledge to be “pure in [their] lifestyle,” but not chaste.

(Also, they don’t make the pledge to their mother, because why would you make a pledge to a silly ol’ girl?)

Comment #96: Jeff Fecke  on  07/23  at  03:24 AM

Also, I said they give the keys to both her and her husband not just him (so in this weird set up, all parents keep a key for their children until they’re married).

IT’S NOT THEIRS TO KEEP. I’m sorry, but I’m really sick of hearing that I’m supposed to be keeping my daughter’s sexuality in a vault for the next twenty-odd years until she gets married. It’s her sexuality, for God’s sake—there is literally nothing more personal than deciding who you are going to have sexual intercourse with, and when. Now, I’ll give my daughter advice when she gets old enough to need it, I’ll support her, I’ll drive her to Planned Parenthood to get the pill, even if I think she’s too young—but I’ll tell her I think she’s too young. But ultimately, did you sit down with your parents and discuss the matter when you decided to lose your virginity? Neither did I. Because it was none of their damn business, ultimately. They gave me their opinions, I listened, I ultimately made up my own mind. That’s what my daughter will do when she’s old enough, and I’m 100 percent okay with that.

Comment #97: Jeff Fecke  on  07/23  at  03:28 AM

I really feel it is to bad that there is no way to drive these f—-k—-g fundie nuts back under the rocks from which they came so they can rejoin the slime from which they came. It is a shame to see a country that was once great reverting back to the dark ages of history, but that is exactly what these cretins would like to see. They are anti-science, anti women’s right, racist, bigoted, and anti everything that promotes progress. They get their ideas from a book of mythology, written by half literate men. Now we have churches continuing the mythology of that book plus the new one that includes the zombie so called son of their supernatural sky daddy. The only thing these people really believe in is screwing everyone out of as much money as they can by what ever means available.

Comment #98: Ex Patriate  on  07/23  at  05:51 AM

Notorious, let’s get back to the original point that I was countering, which is the proposition that girls need their fathers’ protection because of teh bad men out there.  Others have effectively made the point that no parent can be a 24 hour body guard so that argument holds little water.  I said, don’t stereotype because not all women are physically helpless, which is a perfectly valid point.  I’ll take it one step further.  If we did not live in such a rape denying/apologizing, slut shaming culture, women would not need body guards or blackbelts because men would know they could not get away with rape.  Also, I doubt if I will actually need my blackbelt to defend myself because I just come off as the kind of person you don’t want to mess with, and that is a self-esteem thing.  I’m not saying I could never be a victim, and I’m not blaming those that are, but you are creating something of a self-fulfilling prophecy if you teach girls that they need to be protected, boys that they are out of control animals, and that if the protector does not step in, there is nothing you can do because that was your game plan.  Your game plan had better be stomping, kicking, yelling, and no matter how small you are, you can make it hurt bad.  With acquaintence rape, the game plan is having such a strong sense of bodily integrity that it’s obvious to the rapist that you are going to react to the situation just the same as if he were a stranger, and even more strongly because you had a reason to trust the person; all too often girls are convinced that they are at fault for enticing or not fighting hard enough or being just embarassed that they got into a bad situation (like getting into a cab very tipsy with a co-worker) which only looks insidious in hindsight but translates in this culture into she wanted it.

Comment #99: bmc90  on  07/23  at  10:58 AM

Word, mark.  That is about the best parsing of the creepiness I ever seen.

My parents explained the whole sex thing to me when I was about 3-4.  I do not recall the actual explanation, but I always understood the mechanics, and wasn’t grossed out.  When I was a kid, it was in the “something strange that grownups like to do” mental box, along with, say, drinking coffee without sugar which I thought was intolerable.

A few Christmases ago, a cousin (who was 12-13 years old) showed up with a purity ring.  A good girlfriend of mine was hanging out with me, and she likes jewelry, so she innocently asked about the ring (not being Christian, and not being obsessed with blogs like I am, she had NO IDEA what it was about.)  My cousin proceeded to turn red and stammar out an incoherent sentence about what it was the only coherent part was “promise to my dad” I do not think she could even utter the word virgin.  I later explained it to my friend, who was mortified that she had asked, and like me, kind of pissed that the parents had trampled on my cousin’s own natural modesty by bringing up sex (not the mechanics/risks, but the idea that my cousin MIGHT WANT TO HAVE SEX) well before she had any interest in sex.

My parents’ approach was not perfect, I was raised Catholic, although we pretty much all knew that our unmarried youth-group leader was not a virgin, and I was expected to remain a virgin, but it wasn’t really a big deal.  And it was more my mom than my dad.  She would just give slightly over-dire warnings about pregnancy, std’s and the side affects of the pill.  In fact, my dad, bless him, once said when I told him that an ex-boyfriend had cheated on me that he really did not think I should be telling him about that part of my life or whatever, and I said, ‘Dad, I consider it cheating to date other people when you’re in an exclusive relationship.  I’m not saying anything about sex.’  And he was both embarrassed and relieved by this non-admission, I think he still probably thought I “didn’t have my v-card” but was relieved that this wasn’t going to be a topic of conversation.

Comment #100: Ismone  on  07/23  at  12:12 PM
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