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Next entry: The War On Hypocrisy Will Be Won, Although I’m Personally Anti-War Previous entry: New York Gay Rights Disco Rock Mash-Up

Wingnut bloggers rally behind a violent call for revolution

Ugh. I debated writing this post because I really dislike writing about "men's rights activists", because their comically large and unjustified egos cause them to crave attention, and I don't like feeding trolls.  Also, attracting the attention of a group that supports the interests of men who have a tendency to develop unhealthy obsessions with women means being the target of said unhealthy obsession.  But since they're in a feeding frenzy of sick obsessions and a couple of people concerned about me have contacted me about it, I'm going to quickly post about the latest MRA obsession and how it demonstrates exactly how fucked up the online anti-feminist community really is.  

The story begins with a man named Thomas Ball, who committed suicide in the most horrific way, by setting himself on fire in front of a New Hampshire courthouse. He sent a 15-page suicide note/manifesto to the newspaper, and it turns out that he was protesting the enforcement of laws against domestic violence.  Despite the deep wrongness of his cause---I mean, he literally says that men who beat their wives should have full rights to live with the women they abuse and the state shouldn't be able to keep said men away from their victims---a number of anti-feminist types have declared him a hero and a martyr for their cause.  Ball also characterized himself as a Tea Partier and his act as an act of violent protest against the state, and calls for insurrection and revolt.  This has caused his base of support to expand dramatically, and you're seeing Glenn Reynolds and his wife supporting this act of violence.  David at Man Boobz covered the response from the "men's rights" folks, and again the general tenor is support for setting yourself on fire and sending threatening letters calling for more violence, and many of Ball's supporters suggest even more violence. 

I was annoyed by all this and suggested in the comments at Man Boobz that there might be a more personal reason for this guy's suicide, and pointed out that suicide and threats of suicide are common tactics used by abusers to hurt their victims. Abusers dramatically self-destruct all the time in their desperation to control and hurt the objects of their obsession.  There was just recently a big story about this, in fact: Jason Valdez of Utah, who had a long criminal record that included domestic violence, held a woman hostage in a hotel room for 16 hours and kept updates about the situation on Facebook. He eventually committed suicide.  In response to the MRAs who complained that setting yourself on fire isn't threatening enough, I pointed out in Man Boobz's comments that setting yourself on fire is an extremely effective way to hurt your ex-wife, if that's your goal, and perhaps MRAs could consider that aspect of this.  Again: abusers aren't rational people.  Abuse is irrational, in fact, since it basically shuts you off from having a happy life full of joy and love, and causes people who want to love you to fear you instead. 

Well, now all sorts of wingnuts are flipping out and calling me "evil", and even, flatteringly, comparing me to the whore of Babylon. Apparently, I'm supposed to pretend that suicide isn't a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they're going to make everyone pay for not indulging them.  In fact, not only is this true in Ball's case, but he spelled it out in his suicide note.  The "make the bastards suffer" theme of his note is the reason that wingnuts are supporting him.  I will point out that said wingnuts are striking this pose while not reconsidering their attitudes towards suicide bombers, so long as said bombers are Muslim. 

To be very clear, I feel bad that Thomas Ball killed himself.  I suspect that the MRAs who are obsessing over him are doing so in large part because they feel guilty, and they should. Ball killed himself in a fit of obsession over a divorce that happened ten years ago, but which he continued to fight and bemoan, and his obsession was clearly fueled by his engagement with the online anti-feminist community.  It's conceivable that he wouldn't have killed himself if he hadn't had a steady diet of internet rantings from self-pitying fools who want the government to stop taking rape and domestic violence seriously as crimes.  If the people who are making a martyr of Ball had any self-awareness, they would reflect on how their hatreds and obsessions can drive mentally ill people to the brink and cause acts of violence like Ball's. 

But instead they're taking umbrage at my suggestion that Ball may have been abusive to his family.  The problem with that is that Ball admitted as much in his suicide note. To quote:

My story starts with the infamous slapping incident of April 2001. While putting my four year old daughter to bed, she began licking my hand. After giving her three verbal warnings I slapped her. She got a cut lip. My wife asked me to leave to calm things down.

He was arrested and charged for beating his daughter, which I suspect he's strongly downplaying here in a note that's full of self-pitying and minimizing. His wife divorced him, which he then---again, according to his own words---fought for 10 years, though he characterizes his routine appearances in court as something that just happened to him, like the weather or something.  He set himself on fire in part to avoid a contempt of court hearing, which was part of what sounds like a long series of court battles due to Ball refusing to pay child support.  In other words, a typical MRA story, except that this one ends in an act of threatening self-immolation.  

The entire letter is worth reading, because it's a snapshot into the way that right wing propaganda and the online anti-feminist community (which anti-domestic violence activists have nicknamed the "abuser lobby") can work on the mind of a mentally ill person and send them over the edge.  But here's a sample of the letter, which Dr. Helen characterized asb "not the ramblings of a madman, it is the mission of a warrior in some sense".

When then a man is arrested for domestic violence, one of two things can happen. If they are only dating and have separate apartments, then he can head home. But if they are living together, then this fellow has a real problem. Bail conditions and then a possible protective or restraining order prevent him from being with her. So he needs to find a new place to live, at least until the charges are resolved. The King of his Castle is no longer allowed into his castle.

He goes on to argue that enforcing domestic violence laws instead of allowing abusers unfettered access to their victims is bad for the victims, and he cites the usual "breaking up the family" kind of logic that most conservatives outside of Phyllis Schlafly were ashamed to use even just a few years ago. He claims that arresting men for beating their wives and children has somehow left 72 million people homeless because that's what he believes happens when you get divorced.  (Though the fact that he wouldn't pay his child support undermines his insistence that he's only thinking of women's well-being when he insists that they should be forced to allow their abusers back into their homes.)  He argues that men who voted for the Violence Against Women Act emasculated themselves.  He compares arresting abusers for domestic violence to the Holocaust.  He then calls for violent revolution, demands that people start burning down police stations and court houses, and includes instructions for bomb-making.

This is the man that online anti-feminists are treating like a hero.  And this is the man whose heroic status is so obvious to them that they're calling me "evil" and the "beast of Babylon" for criticizing. 

There is good news here. Most of these idiots are all talk.  They may admire Ball for setting himself on fire and causing so much pain and anguish in his community, but most of them are too comfortable and too lazy to actually act on their violent fantasies.  That said, Ball's death should be a reminder of how serious the situation is with regards to the ramped-up ugliness in right wing rhetoric.  Ball luckily didn't hurt anyone but himself, but his is just another story in what is a growing list of acts of violence and domestic terrorism from the unhinged element on the right.  That he's being so eagerly supported by so many bloggers should concern us; what if the next guy they decide to rally behind hurts more than himself?

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:40 AM • (123) Comments

FWIW, You are dead on Amanda with how abusers will terrorize their family with their suicide threats.  I’m glad somebody said it, I don’t think people who have not been in such situations want to imagine it.

Comment #1: ewellone  on  06/27  at  11:08 AM

I also can attest to the fact that abusive men often use suicide threats to emotionally control their victims.

Comment #2: GumbyAnne  on  06/27  at  11:18 AM

The level of delusion and petulance there (at Dr. Helen’s)...I literally have only ever seen that in prolonged conversation with a 3 year old.

The difference is that after a nap, the 3 year old turned into a pleasant and kind human being. Whereas those people are hideous 24/7.

Comment #3: Well, what?  on  06/27  at  11:20 AM

Abuser’s Lobby.  Heh.  Def more honest and descriptive..

Comment #4: Rare Vos  on  06/27  at  11:27 AM

“Bail conditions and then a possible protective or restraining order prevent him from being with her.  So he needs to find a new place to live, at least until the charges are resolved.”

“...until the charges are resolved”?  What about the psychotherapy and possibly medication you need before you can behave like a reasonable person and NOT HIT YOUR FAMILY?  If you think protective custody and/or a restraining order are mere tools to suppress your freedom of expressing yourself (via your fists), then you have some very fundamental issues that need to be resolved.

“The King of his Castle is no longer allowed into his castle.”

...as soon as “The King” decided to enforce his rule with violence or the threat of violence, you abdicated, buddy.  The Queen has assumed ownership while you get yourself straightened out…

***

And all of this just days after a Wisconsin Supreme Court justice tried to strangle another (female) justice.  Is this a great country or what?...

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  06/27  at  11:33 AM

I keep getting this “burning bush” impression from the red-tipped shrubbery.

Continuing the wood metaphor, seems like the MRA is a ‘can’t see the forest for trees.’

Not all laws reflect an abstract sense of ‘all being equal.’ Like in this libertarian world view we could have three year old daughters being reported for domestic abuse by their fathers. Or we could pit a 200lb man against a 100lb woman and say that under the law they are equal so just fight it out and let ‘natural law’ win the day.

We’re not dealing with abstractions about personal sovereignty - we’re trying to protect children. We are defending the weak and infirm.

Another forest/trees or perhaps horse blinder/tunnel vision aspect: I look around and see lots of couples who aren’t slapping each other around. They’re not having all these days in court. Yet for the MRA, around every corner is the guy who’s wife called the police because he caught in her in bed with another man, and now he’s been kicked out of hearth and home because of the evil ministrations of a modern day Bethsheba. There’s probably a tree - maybe several - that fit the description, but the whole forest?

If women couldn’t be sinister, they wouldn’t be human, and yes the domestic abuse laws are probably ‘abused’ sometimes. It might even be constructive of MRAs to focus more on the mechanics of the laws to make sure they aren’t being abused - but getting down to the nuances and nuts and bolts of family law is not really their agenda.

Then again, if you are with the kind of woman who would bear false witness against you, putting a lot of distance between her and yourself is probably the first step in reclaiming your sanity.

Comment #6: KingElvis  on  06/27  at  11:55 AM

King of his Castle?  He didn’t purchase a kingship when he got married.

When people stoop to argument by vague obsolete analogy, in a legal discussion, you know they got nothin.

Comment #7: oldfeminist  on  06/27  at  11:57 AM

So if she chucks him out the first time he beats a toddler bloody, it’s a “slapping incident” and he deserves another chance and she’s such a bitch, getting someone arrested over something so trivial!

If she lets it continue it’s “why did she stay?” if not an outright “they both share the blame.”

Comment #8: MissPrism  on  06/27  at  12:03 PM

When people stoop to argument by vague obsolete analogy, in a legal discussion, you know they got nothin.

If the law is on your side, bang on the law.  If the facts are on your side, bang on the facts.  If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, bang on the table (or your wife and kids, apparently).

Comment #9: Sour Kraut  on  06/27  at  12:11 PM

OK, I have got to start paying more attention to these nuts before something happens This is the third item about MRA’s that I’ve seen in the past 24 hours.

I was caught off guard by Ball’s statement that the Klan is a hate group in his rambling manifesto. I wasn’t expecting that because of the intersections between MRA’s, tea baggers and hate groups. I watched a bland documentary on msnbc last night called “Erasing Hate” about a former skinhead. Racism was not his primary motivator to leave the white power movement. He left because he got sick of guys abusing their wives/girlfriends, having children all over the country and not paying child support, and a growing awareness of the sexual assault of girls as young as twelve at large hate group rallies. There are some things that even a skinhead can’t stomach.

Comment #10: serious bette  on  06/27  at  12:11 PM

When a story starts with pretty obvious child abuse, quite frankly everything just stems from that.

Comment #11: Karmakin  on  06/27  at  12:22 PM

When a story starts with pretty obvious child abuse, quite frankly everything just stems from that.
Comment #11: Karmakin on 06/27 at 12:22 PM

Don’t be silly, she initiated agression—she licked him!

Comment #12: oldfeminist  on  06/27  at  12:26 PM

If a four-year-old is licking your hand, why not just take your hand away? Don’t just leave your hand in the four-year-old’s mouth, issue three “verbal warnings” and then slap the shit out of her.

Comment #13: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  06/27  at  12:31 PM

If a four-year-old is licking your hand, why not just take your hand away? Don’t just leave your hand in the four-year-old’s mouth, issue three “verbal warnings” and then slap the shit out of her.

WHY MUST YOU OPPRESS HIM SO

Comment #14: Well, what?  on  06/27  at  12:32 PM

There’s wrong and there’s WRONG. That whole incident was in the latter category.

Comment #15: Karmakin  on  06/27  at  12:33 PM

What’s particularly creepy about the MRAs’ championing this guy is that his rather obvious mental health problems seem to pass almost completely without their notice.

Now, is that because they figure that if they acknowledge this particular elephant in the room, it’ll hurt their case—or is this level of f*cked-up-itude so common among MRAs that they honestly can’t see it, like fish noticing water?

Comment #16: Molly, NYC  on  06/27  at  12:35 PM

Molly @16: If you read the comments on Dr Helen’s (suppress your gag reflex), it’s not hard to conclude that these men consider his level of fucked-up-itude to be the natural result of existing in this torturous gynocracy. They see it, but it’s on the level of how you might see a coworker during crunch time and say, “well of course you’re stressed.”

Comment #17: Well, what?  on  06/27  at  12:44 PM

Dr Helen should know that ‘madness’ isn’t a legal or even medical term of art, it’s a bit like a physics professor making a non-ironic reference to phlogiston.

Well, what?  You remind me of the psychiatric diagnosis of a ‘healthy’ 3 year old:

A psychotic midget with a good prognosis.

Comment #18: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/27  at  12:48 PM

Like GumbyAnne at #2, I’ve had an abusive partner use suicide threats against me. He was never physically abusive but very emotionally and verbally manipulative and abusive, not to mention a sever alcoholic and showing signs of having inherited his mother’s paranoid schizophrenia. (He was 20 when we started dating, IINM the age around when that sort of thing usually starts to show up.) I was young and extremely insecure and ripe for the pickings for an overly possessive emotional vampire like him. When I finally tried to leave him (the first of many times) he said he would kill himself. Eventually, during the final time I broke up with him (not that that actually got him out of my life - that was about ten years ago and he is still intermittently stalking me when not locked up on DUI like he is now), he locked himself in a motel bathroom with a knife and said he was slitting his wrists and asking me how I would go on living with myself for doing this to him.

Turns out he didn’t actually do anything to himself, though when the cops showed up they still took him in on a 72-hour psych hold because, as one of them said to me, “he’s obviously got…something wrong”. Um. Yeah.

But anyway, yeah, the suicide threat/action is a great way to torture a partner, and while my ex wasn’t an MRA, I can certainly see how it would appeal even more to those assholes. They already think all women are to blame for their problems and the imperfect nature of their worlds, so taking the next step to blaming a specific woman in their lives and making sure she suffers for it is sadly unsurprising. And cruel as fucking hell.

Comment #19: Alison  on  06/27  at  12:48 PM

(Gah, I need to proofread. “Severe”, not “sever”. I can spell, I promise! raspberry)

Comment #20: Alison  on  06/27  at  12:50 PM

I freely admit I’m completely unsympathetic to this guy, and that my reaction to his death is “Well, at least his kids will get SS survivor benefits now, better than no child support.”

Comment #21: Broce  on  06/27  at  12:51 PM

So now there’s one less child abuser in the world. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me as a great loss.

Comment #22: DataSnake  on  06/27  at  12:52 PM

My mother’s mentally ill first husband threatened to kill himself regularly both as a way to control her and as a way to sabotage her career.  (He’d call her at her highly competitive job, threatening to kill himself, requiring her to run home in the middle of the day.)  He also raped my cousin.  But obviously it’s abusers who are truly oppressed.

Comment #23: keshmeshi  on  06/27  at  12:55 PM

So now there’s one less child abuser in the world. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me as a great loss.

Well, no, and if every miserable, abusive waste of skin decided to commit suicide tomorrow the world would be better off. The problem is when other hateful fucks realize killing themselves isn’t necessarily going to get the reaction they want, and move on to killing others.

Comment #24: junk science  on  06/27  at  01:04 PM

When I was 20 I broke up with a woman I’d been going out with for three months, because of what I identified at the time as a personal discomfort with the way she talked and acted towards me (ten years later, I was able to identify this as an abusive relationship). When I’d made clear to her that we weren’t going to be in a relationship any more, she told me in that case she would kill herself, because if I left her she had no reason to live.

I remember having a really awful moment of “Should I stick with her until I can persuade her not to kill herself?” and then concluding no, because I didn’t really believe she was going to kill herself (and I was right: she never did) and because it seemed to me that it would make it an even worse break-up if I went back on it and said I would stay - when I profoundly really did not want to stay.

Ten years after the break-up, when two of my friends had, separately, got involved with the same woman and stayed with her for two years at a stretch and crawled out of the relationship emotional wrecks and asking me “How did you manage to leave her after only three months?” I could identify her behavior towards me as emotionally abusive.

Abusers threaten to kill themselves because it often works. Mostly they don’t mean it: they threaten to kill themselves because the threat itself is a means of controlling and hurting their target, and that’s what they want. Abusers see themselves as the victim in the relationship, especially if their target gets away from them.

If the ex-wife and daughter of Thomas Ball are reading this, all I can say is: You survived and you got away from him, and that’s a good thing. It wasn’t your fault he was an abuser, and it certainly was never your fault that he was damaged enough to think he could top himself as a way of hurting you. It is not your responsibility that he prefered to be an abuser.

Comment #25: Jesurgislac  on  06/27  at  01:06 PM

A friend of mine’s abusive father killed himself with a shotgun (yes, it’s possible).  This was in the driveway of his ex-wife’s house, ten or so years after divorce.  Along with the skydiving incident which left my friend unable to work (apparently no one wants someone with two broken ankles in a call center… Who knew?) really destroyed him.  I rarely hear from him anymore, but he’s a broken shell of the person he once was, because all he seems to be able to think about is his father.

Comment #26: Crissa  on  06/27  at  01:14 PM

So long as MRAs don’t really believe that women are people, you’re never really going to convince them that DV is wrong, or get them to pay child support.  It’s like trying to convince a creationist that evolution is true.  If they can’t even recognize the most basic premise of the argument as valid, there’s no point wasting the time and breath on the rest of it.

Comment #27: progrocker  on  06/27  at  01:15 PM

I can believe that there are men failed by the legal system in divorce proceedings. I can believe that there are men driven to suicide as a result, not as an act of violence but out of desperation. I can believe that it is reasonable to work to reform how divorce cases are handled. I still don’t think MRA’s have even the slightest bit of credibility on these issues. In large part because they champion cases like this. When they make it clear that violent abusers are the people they are fighting for, what credibility can they have? When they demand haphazard and one-sided reforms, what credibility can they have? I believe we can do better, but I also believe that what MRA’s are asking for is to make things worse. Time and again, they have exposed their true intentions. They are concerned not with fairness and justice, but with punishing women. They aren’t interested in pursuing divorce laws that are equitable and reasonable. They are interested in divorce laws which disenfranchise women. There may be problems with the status quo, but the “problems” MRA’s see have utterly nothing to do with them. They only see things through a warped prism where men are oppressed and the power of women is unchecked. It is no surprise that a violent child abuser is held up as their champion. This is precisely what they stand for, even if they like to confuse people into assuming they stand for something else.

Comment #28: BStu  on  06/27  at  01:24 PM

Nothing leads violence faster, whether against oneself or others, like the toxic mixture of self-pity and self-righteousness. This guy had it in spades.

Comment #29: Ben D.  on  06/27  at  01:25 PM

Where to start on Ball and his idiocy?  Between what seems to have been either meeting the most hypervigilant cops in America when it comes to family violence (which, given how police tend to treat domestic violence cases too often, I tend to doubt) or he’s massively downplaying his own behavior (way much more likely) he’s stretched out something for a decade and paints himself as an innocent victim here (which, if he were innocent, then this would’ve gotten thrown out of court a long time ago, or he would’ve admitted he was wrong and did his damnedest to rectify things and change his behavior).

Agree with Lindsay that if a child is licking your hand the smart thing would be to take the hand away.  However, I think most of us realize that Ball either didn’t have that bit of common sense or something else was at play here.  I think we all know which to assume here.

The sickest thing, outside of Ball’s act himself (which totally takes immolation as protest in a direction that Buddhist monks protesting the Vietnam war would’ve never imagined in a million years), is the growing acceptance of the right in this country to voice beliefs and actions that even 15 years ago would’ve been considered beyond the pale even by right wing standards.  Whether that’s because all the sane people who leaned conservative have been driven out of the room or they’re just showing their true colors is another discussion altogether (though one that would compliment this).

I really hope Amanda’s right when she says that most of these people are all talk and that their hatred of anyone not like them (as well as their misuse of the anonymous nature of the Internet) is overriden by the realization that acting on their ignorance would cause way more harm to both the people they target as well as their own families, than good.

Comment #30: TTWN  on  06/27  at  01:32 PM

I found this paragraph from his “manifesto” particularly bizarre:

“There is a third reason to end this discrimination, something of a more practical nature. Apparently, some women like to have sex with men. But men are barred from the property. Suddenly, that 15 year boy two doors down starts looking real good. It might even be fun breaking in this new meat. So this woman driven into insolvency by the push for domestic violence arrests now finds herself charged as a pedophile because someone barred men from her world. With domestic violence advocates as friends, who needs enemies.”

Why would anyone’s brain go to this scenario?

Just one of so many whys and wtfs.

Comment #31: Phoebe Fay  on  06/27  at  01:36 PM

I have attempted suicide, as have two of my friends. For all of us, it was a pretty private thing. Now, though the urges to self-harm are still there, I’m very conscious of how it would effect my partner. I always discuss those things with my shrink, and never someone I would inadvertently threaten or alarm. I feel that most people who are mentally ill are not abusive, so we try to keep self-harm under wraps.

Comment #32: JilliefromChile  on  06/27  at  01:37 PM

Whether that’s because all the sane people who leaned conservative have been driven out of the room or they’re just showing their true colors is another discussion altogether

.

My theory (well, the optimistic one anyway) is that when American political movements are faced with extinction, they tend to become even more extreme in one last burst of fury. Ex., the Federalist Party, when faced with the declining influence of their New England base in the 1810s, had the Hartford Convention and agitated for the secession of New England right before they went extinct.

Comment #33: Ben D.  on  06/27  at  01:41 PM

Why would anyone’s brain go to this scenario

So it turns out the wife was the real child abuser, what a twist!

Actually when I think about it bizarre hypotheticals are just par for the course for conservatives and are considered more valid than facts like you punched your kid in the face so you shouldn’t be in the same building any more.

Comment #34: pharmakos  on  06/27  at  01:47 PM

Why would anyone’s brain go to this scenario?

Look, I remember a real column in the National Review where the author said we couldn’t legalize gay marriage, because then normally straight men just couldn’t resist turning gay, and women would be without husbands.

Comment #35: Ben D.  on  06/27  at  01:50 PM

Apparently, some women like to have sex with men.

I’m glad the news is getting out.

Comment #36: junk science  on  06/27  at  01:54 PM

As with Jillie, I just want to point out that most people who are suicidal and/or have mental illness are not violent or manipulative about their problems. Statistically, we are more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of violence.

I get that Amanda is talking about a very specific kind of suicidal behavior (one that my ex-husband used on me, so I know it exists), and when everyone here uses the term “mentally ill” it’s to point to the fact that clearly this man had some serious problems. When the term gets thrown around too loosely, though, I think it does contribute to the prejudice in our culture against the rest of us with mental health diagnoses.

Comment #37: Dymphna  on  06/27  at  02:02 PM

pharmakos,

True, he may have beat his daughter, but his wife could hypothetically do the 15-year old boy next door, making her a child abuser, whom Hypothetical Liberals would no doubt defend.

Why won’t Hypothetical Liberals condemn child abuse?

Comment #38: Sour Kraut  on  06/27  at  02:04 PM

So now there’s one less child abuser in the world. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me as a great loss.

not to get Liberal-holier-than-thou, but it’s still a tragedy. He’s an abusive monster, and crazy, but that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Whether it was how he grew up, or a chemical imbalance, or simply an asshole who fell off a slippery slope after getting away with douchebaggery one too many times. Ultimately he was destroyed by his own choices, but that doesn’t make those choices not tragic.

There is a hypothetical world where he wasn’t a self-annihilating abusive prick, and that world is a better place than the one where he became an abusive prick and ultimately killed himself.

Comment #39: karpad  on  06/27  at  02:21 PM

If a slap is delivered which results in “a cut lip”, you know that was a damn hard slap indeed.  Might even have been a punch, given this person’s demonstrated tendency to minimize.

Comment #40: millsapian87  on  06/27  at  02:38 PM

One detail Amanda doesn’t mention from Ball’s massive suicide note: Apparently he lost visitation rights to his daughter after the divorce because he refused to go to the counseling the judge had recommended after the abuse incident.  That’s the point where he completely loses my sympathy.

The overall tone of Ball’s manifesto is that punching a preschooler in the face wasn’t a big deal, his family would’ve been just fine if the government hadn’t gotten involved (he blames the divorce on the government brainwashing his wife to leave him, because obviously it couldn’t have been anything he did), and anyway what he did to his daughter was nothing compared to his own, much more important suffering.  That’s not the attitude of a loving parent who made one little mistake.  That’s the attitude of an abuser who is not going to stop abusing, and fortunately his ex-wife realized that in time.

Also, either he didn’t consider how his daughter would feel when he told the world that he killed himself because of her, or he did consider it and he wanted her to suffer for the rest of her life.

Comment #41: Shaenon  on  06/27  at  02:38 PM

Is there anyway to discuss suicide ideation or past self harm with a partner without it being abusive? I mean, it’s something I live with and likely will for a while, but I manage it and I don’t think that I should be doomed to celibacy. This is not to say that I sympathize with that dude at all. His case is cut-and-dry abuse. It’s just that I want to avoid 1. not disclosing and thus hiding a part of myself that I shouldn’t from a partner and 2. scaring the crap out of people in a potentially harmful way. The middle way isn’t always clear.

Comment #42: JilliefromChile  on  06/27  at  02:57 PM

Regarding the Whore of Babylon thing, we now have to add Argumentum ad Marcotte to the list of logical fallacies beloved by Wingnuttia…

Comment #43: MikeEss  on  06/27  at  03:10 PM

@31:
So this woman driven into insolvency by the push for domestic violence arrests now finds herself charged as a pedophile because someone barred men from her world. With domestic violence advocates as friends, who needs enemies.”

This hints at another assumption that MRAs make, which is that all men are violent, woman-hating assholes like them. It’s not because they think so little of men, but because they’re so incapable of figuring out what’s so wrong about smacking women around. So they conclude that America is run by an evil femocracy that hates men. “Why, if I got kicked out of my home for no good reason [for beating my wife bloody], men everywhere must be getting treated like second-class citizens [and all because they’re good manly men who also put their wives in their place, no doubt]!”

So I mean, he thinks that “someone barred men from her world” because he just can’t grasp that, no, someone barred HIM from her world because he’s an abusive asshole. It reveals a lot about the MRA psyche.

Comment #44: Triplanetary  on  06/27  at  03:15 PM

@33:
My theory (well, the optimistic one anyway) is that when American political movements are faced with extinction, they tend to become even more extreme in one last burst of fury.

The problem is that this is basically what the Republican Party did in the 50s (when they started transforming from the “Party of Lincoln” to a bunch of hard-right, fact-free, red-scare-inciting, God-fearing assholes) and rather than being “one last burst of fury” it’s what sustained them to this day.

Comment #45: Triplanetary  on  06/27  at  03:18 PM

Hum.  So the things that struck me in this manifesto?
From the start, he addresses this only to other men, whom he calls “boys”.  He talks about wives and children as a person would posessions or pets with their peers. 
His grammar, logic and math are absolutely horrible - a poor testement to the standards of NH education (a state that still does not provide public kindergarten) and that of the US Army.
Not only would he not attend couselling to regain visitation, he did not, in his own words, lift a finger to save his marriage.
He refers to a 4 and 7 year old as toddlers.  Um, no.
One of the children was already being seen by a mintal health professional when the first “slapping incident” occured.  Wendy of the advice.
And it just keeps going on and on and on.
Seriously, there is just so much wrong here, it can’t be taken in all at once.  Wrong in the second sense given previously.

Comment #46: helen w. h.  on  06/27  at  03:20 PM

I’m glad you wrote this, Amanda, because my only exposure to the story was from James Howard Kunstler’s blog, which, to describe the post with extreme charity, very quickly elides the actual content of Ball’s life and suicide note to talk about a handful of JHK’s favored themes, the most compelling of which expressed herein is the failure of society to allow for men to fulfill satisfying roles. I would describe his two most recent entries as ill-considered rambles.

Comment #47: Dan Watson  on  06/27  at  03:20 PM

I’m happy he’s dead. However, I dont understand the last of Amandas sentence on her post since Sodini has already done more to himself by harming others. Why havent they labeled these people a hate group like Westboro? This douchbags suicide was clearly about power and control. Domestic abuse are these peoples political philosophy.

Comment #48: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  03:22 PM

Suicide threats are an extremely typical Nice Guy tactic.  I have had so many guys say something like “Oh, I guess I should just kill myself then” if I turned them down for a date or broke up with them.  This actually worked at making me feel guilty for a very long time.  My mom has had depression in the past, including suicidal thoughts, so I know that it’s serious business.  But now that I think of it, my mom never threatened suicide and most people were very surprised when she checked herself into a hospital.  I guess there’s not “typical” face of depression, but I think that most people who are genuinely suffering don’t make a big show of it or try to control others by threatening to harm themselves.  Either way, at least I am at the point in my life where I know I can’t stop someone from harming themselves by dating them out of guilt.  They need therapy and medication, not a few pity dates.  I can’t personally rescue them and it’s not my duty to do so.  But yeah, the suicide threats still get to me because they are so powerful.  And that’s exactly why abusers use them.

Comment #49: bananacat  on  06/27  at  03:33 PM

If a four-year-old is licking your hand, why not just take your hand away? Don’t just leave your hand in the four-year-old’s mouth, issue three “verbal warnings” and then slap the shit out of her.

What?  How can you blame the victim like this?  I mean, there was a poor, innocent, helpless man, and that tiny little girl licked his hand!  He was only defending himself, because obviously that licking would have escalated to biting, and then to killing him with a revolver.  And don’t forget that the kid was a girl so she had extra special feminine powers.  He was helpless to resist.  This poor pitiful helpless man is just a victim of a feminine conspiracy to lick his hand and take away his property.  I’m sure he would have said something like this if he were still around to hear it.

Comment #50: bananacat  on  06/27  at  03:46 PM

Also, either he didn’t consider how his daughter would feel when he told the world that he killed himself because of her, or he did consider it and he wanted her to suffer for the rest of her life.

He probably wanted her to hate her mother for ‘driving’ him to suicide.

Comment #51: Jayn Newell  on  06/27  at  03:55 PM

Not only would he not attend couselling to regain visitation, he did not, in his own words, lift a finger to save his marriage.

Well, why would he?  He thinks his marriage was destroyed because his wife got all uppity about him giving one tiny little bloody lip to his 4-year old daughter, and then the man-hating police and court system conspired with her to strip him of his manhood.

In his mind they all need to apologize and give him back his Kingship to make it right.

Comment #52: Sour Kraut  on  06/27  at  04:06 PM

I wonder if she actually was licking his hand (in his mind I bet he had to say she did something weird in order to justify his abuse)? It sounds like a weird thing to do.

Comment #53: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  04:25 PM

#5 mikeess,
Actually the Queen isnt taking over for the time being (as in ‘while he’s away’.....which sounds like you give way too much truth to his convoluted thinking). In a modern household it shouldve always have been the Queen and King not simply the King as if it is more superior. She’s simply in the position she always was in. The Queen just got rid of her Court Jester and is hopefully now looking for a new real King to be partners with her in her “empire.”

Comment #54: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  04:29 PM

I wonder if she actually was licking his hand (in his mind I bet he had to say she did something weird in order to justify his abuse)? It sounds like a weird thing to do.

Have you ever met a 4 year old? “Weird things to do” are just about the only things they ever do.

(Not that this has any bearing whatsoever on Ball’s egregious behavior.)

Comment #55: Well, what?  on  06/27  at  04:31 PM

#6 kingelvis,
What I dont like about their perspective (among many things….I’ve actually read Warren Farrell) is how they never say men dont abuse these laws. Its always the woman. They never write about how men will say the mothers are abusing or hitting them when the mothers actually arent.

Comment #56: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  04:33 PM

#16 Molly,
I dont think it was mental illness but convolyted thinking. Do you think Hitler was mentally ill (I dont think his socio environment contributed positively, but still…)? What about all the Nazis that followed him? I find it hard to think so much of Germany was actually mentally ill. I toss it more as convoluted thinking than actual mental illness.

Comment #57: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  04:39 PM

A very good male friend of mine agreed to babysit for another less close male friend for a few days last year, while the second friend took a long weekend off to celebrate the finalization of his divorce from his horrible, abusive, crazy now-ex wife by going to a meditation retreat. The first friend was putting the kids to bed when he heard screaming from outside, so he went and opened the front door to see what was up. It was the ex-wife, in the yard, with a pistol, screaming “This will haunt you for the rest of your life!”, then shooting herself fatally in the head. In her defense, my two friends are equal in height and build, and it was dark and he was backlit. She had terrorized my friend (and many of the rest of us) for years with her constant theatrics, including the threat of suicide, and, well, she finally did it. But in front of the wrong guy. At least the kids stayed in bed. The second friend, the ex-husband, is mostly just a little sad; the first friend, the witness, was horribly traumatized by this and had to quit his demanding job because he was too freaked out. He’s still in therapy—apparently the act itself was quite messy and gory.

This is not to imply that women abuse men as much as the other way round.

Comment #58: felagund  on  06/27  at  04:40 PM

“In his mind they all need to apologize and give him back his Kingship to make it right.”

...and then do like English did to Mary, Queen of Scotts, and chop off ‘er ‘ead.  It’s the least she deserves for forcing him to torment her for 10-years…

Comment #59: MikeEss  on  06/27  at  04:45 PM

not to get Liberal-holier-than-thou, but it’s still a tragedy. He’s an abusive monster, and crazy, but that doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Whether it was how he grew up, or a chemical imbalance, or simply an asshole who fell off a slippery slope after getting away with douchebaggery one too many times. Ultimately he was destroyed by his own choices, but that doesn’t make those choices not tragic.

Maybe it makes me a big jerk to Godwinize, but (as with many things) you can say the same thing about Hitler. He was destroyed by his own choice, and those choices were tragic - and they did not happen in a vacuum, either. But given that he dragged literally hundreds of millions of people down with him, is it really necessary to temper relief and lack of remorse at his death with a sense of a tragic life gone to waste?

The point being, of course that’s an utterly absurd extreme, but where’s the dividing line? I don’t think anyone needs to be reminded to feel sorrow here, nor do I think that anyone need feel sorry at all. The death of an individual abuser is no big loss. The issue, that I think you point out very effectively, is that non-vacuum, the culture that breeds so much waste and tragedy. It’s totally reasonable and normal and fine to feel a sense of loss for the decent life that could have been, and it’s not that feeling I have a problem with; I get that, too. I just think that the larger point about the culture is what’s important here, not individual sadness for a man who, for whatever he could have been, was a tormentor and abuser of his family in a world where many men do in fact choose NOT to be abusers. Let’s stack the odds in favor of more (all!) men making the right choice, but let’s also not forget that there IS a choice.

Comment #60: grolby  on  06/27  at  05:02 PM

The only thing I admire about Ball is that he took himself out without taking out his kids and ex-wife at the same time.  I’ve read about a couple of these murder-followed-by-suicide cases this summer. 

I guess I’m a rat-bastard, or maybe just cranky today. for hoping more of the rabid MRA guys will follow Balls’ example.

Comment #61: MiddleageLiberal  on  06/27  at  05:05 PM

King of his Castle?  He didn’t purchase a kingship when he got married.

We’re talking about people who define their identity by what they control.  HIS castle.  HIS children.  HIS bitch.

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/27  at  05:06 PM

#28 Bstu,
I think people forget that women are often screwed over by the laws as well. They only focus on the men, but we have to be realistic many of these laws that in the minority of cases are abused generally work well and are often in place to protect those that are more vulnerable.


#36 chet,
I have an issue calling it ‘mens rights.’ Usually these things were brought down by men on men where alot of things that affect women were brought down by men onto women. I also dont think male circumcision is the equivalent of FGM. Getting alot of men together who may not even have evolved ideas about women fighting in our system and having influence sounds like a good way to screw womens rights and representation. When guys get together it can often be very un-pretty for women. For example alot of these anti-circumcision male activist talk about bodily autonomy but omit womens bodily autonomy in regards to abortion. I also think that could be encouraging a can of worms that would be a problem for women. I also dont think they need much of a huge campaign against male circumcision. They think its climbing a mountain but I think a more rational medical based approach, ie, simply saying ‘its not generally necessary,’ coupled with some suggestions that it may hurt and to not worry about boys not fitting in would be more appropriate. But even on that subject they go AWOL and go in with the zany claims.

Comment #63: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  05:08 PM

Regarding the Whore of Babylon thing, we now have to add Argumentum ad Marcotte to the list of logical fallacies beloved by Wingnuttia…

What do you mean “fallacy”, Mike?  She moved to New York - doesn’t that prove there’s a good case there?

Comment #64: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/27  at  05:11 PM

#62 grolby,
Yeah it comes more from privilege and control not victimhood. It would be the equivalent of white supremists in the 1950s killing themselves. It didnt come from bad homes, it came from privilege and a petulent demand that their inhumanity be mindlessly listened to. They couldnt stand the oppressed class getting rights so they killed themselves, perhaps because they didnt want to live in a world where the oppressed are now given rights, or perhaps its some mindless over-emotional foot stomping but regardless it has no depth and is clearly abusive. Why is it that some people think liberalism is so inhumanely passive like the poster who grolby quoted? I’m not shedding a tear for a monster. I mean, my Gawd how stupid can a person be? Just like I’m happy Osamas dead-and Hitler too

Comment #65: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  05:14 PM

#57 well,what
I bet she was just being silly and most parents wouldve tickled her before turning the lights off.

Comment #66: Bean Slap  on  06/27  at  05:21 PM

In the U.S., it’s legal for parents to hit their children so long as it doesn’t amount to “abuse”, which is a somewhat arbitrary standard.  So when Mr. Ball felt that the law was being applied to him in a somewhat arbitrary fashion, he was right.  And that’s the problem with allowing corporal punishment of children for purposes of “discipline.”  Unless you have a blanket prohibition against hitting children - as they have in a number of European countries - people like Tom Ball are always going to feel unfairly singled out for slapping their four-year-olds in the face.

Comment #67: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  06/27  at  06:12 PM

It’s his reaction to slapping his child as much as the actual act that makes me cringe. 

My mom slapped me exactly once, when I was about five.  I don’t remember what I was doing, but I wasn’t listening.  At that point, she had a 5-year-old, a 4-year-old, and an infant and was probably pretty overwhelmed.  And that slap hurt—no bruises or cuts, but it was red and stung for what seemed like hours afterwards.

And my mom felt awful as soon as she had done it—genuinely awful.  I remember that she sat down and cried, and said that she needed learn how to be a better mommy.  I don’t remember what she and Dad worked out to take some of the pressure off.  I do know that she never laid a hand on us kids again—even yelling was rare from her.

And then there’s Ball, who not only hit his child so hard that she bled, but never thought that there was anything wrong with it.  Makes me sick to my stomach.

Comment #68: Karinna A.  on  06/27  at  06:49 PM

My 6 year old neice licked my hand a couple of times.  Who knows what she was thinking when she did it.  I giggled, and then kissed her on the head. I bet the little girl thought the “verbal warnings” were just play, and then he hauls off and smacks her hard enough to cut her lip.  Then, several years later, he sets himself on fire and partially blames her for it.  I hope she doesn’t feel responsible.  Stacy McCain and his gargoyles can eat a bag of dicks.

Comment #69: kitten parade  on  06/27  at  07:43 PM

“I have had so many guys say something like “Oh, I guess I should just kill myself then” if I turned them down for a date or broke up with them.”

The latter doesn’t surprise me, but wow, after a single request for a date? I’ll have to try and remember that so that if it happens to me I can say “no, you should go on living your life and perhaps ask out another lady” or some other overly sincere response that miiight catch them off guard.

@44

I think the best way would just involve sitting down and being frank about it. And try to avoid doing or saying things that suggest that downturns in mood or self-harming is in any way their fault or could have been prevented by their modifying their behaviour. If you come to a new relationship with good support from family/friends, medication, that kind of thing, it’s best to let someone know relatively early on (if they get scared off by it- meaning the fact you have emotional problems in itself, not the idea of you becoming an abuser- you don’t want to date them anyway) and make sure they know you’re in a relative place of stability. If you are not in a place of stability or you’ve been in a relationship for a while, the best thing to do would be to have a relatively formal sit-down and tell them you’re struggling, while letting your partner know that you don’t want to be a burden on their own emotions or end up like this crazy fucker. Just letting someone know you worry about that happening is a pretty good indication that you aren’t intending to. The reason I suggest a somewhat formal/planned talk is that if it comes out during an emotional time or an argument, it might look insincere or scary.

Also, if you don’t have support/medication/whatever you need you should immediately try to get it and broaden the circle of people who know and care about your problem. This will be good for you in the event of a breakup besides the reassurance your partner will have.

I hope that helps, for me I informed my SO I was on antidepressants about a month after I met him, fairly casually. I let him know I have a great support group and haven’t really discussed self-harm/suicidal ideation with him (it’s not such a prevalent thing for me) apart from a few random mentions. The best thing really is to let a person know that your feelings and actions aren’t determined by them. I’m ashamed to say I’ve sometimes used my depression against my mother and made her feel awful. But I learned from that mistake, seeing how deeply a glib statement I made affected her own emotions.

Comment #70: Treefinger  on  06/27  at  07:44 PM

Suicide threats are an extremely typical Nice Guy tactic.  I have had so many guys say something like “Oh, I guess I should just kill myself then” if I turned them down for a date or broke up with them.  This actually worked at making me feel guilty for a very long time.  My mom has had depression in the past, including suicidal thoughts, so I know that it’s serious business.  But now that I think of it, my mom never threatened suicide and most people were very surprised when she checked herself into a hospital.  I guess there’s not “typical” face of depression, but I think that most people who are genuinely suffering don’t make a big show of it or try to control others by threatening to harm themselves.  Either way, at least I am at the point in my life where I know I can’t stop someone from harming themselves by dating them out of guilt.  They need therapy and medication, not a few pity dates.  I can’t personally rescue them and it’s not my duty to do so.  But yeah, the suicide threats still get to me because they are so powerful.  And that’s exactly why abusers use them.
Comment #51: bananacat on 06/27 at 03:33 PM

Whoa—Bananacat, I think we may have dated the same guys! That is all I can say. After ten years in the dating scene, I now regard such bullshit statements as, “It’s your JOB to SAVE ME!” with Extreme Side-Eye (TM) and a suggestion that they get some damn therapy. The latter suggestion is met with trepidation. I was supposed to BONE them, not offer a practical suggestion!

If that doesn’t work, “I’m a PERSON, not a fucking CHARITY” comes in handy. Even if they don’t get it, at least it won’t be because someone didn’t say it. But the fact that I have to say it AT ALL is galling, as is the fact that I am apparently supposed to be ‘giving guys I have a bad feeling about A CHANCE’, so as not to be called ‘picky’ or just plain ‘bitch’. (I love how I’m a ‘bitch’ because I don’t want to be the personal savior of some random dude that makes me miserable. And by ‘love’ I mean ‘hate with a screaming passion’.)


*********************************

But this horrible man? I’m relieved that he’s gone. Not *glad*, because frankly he needed help and seemed to be in denial about, well, everything. Not sad, either, except for the abused family he left behind.

And there is NO GOOD REASON EVER to strike a four-year-old. I taught preschool for 4 years. Hitting children was NEVER an option. Kids got under my skin sometimes, sure. Yes, a few of them even licked me. I was more grossed out than anything else, and these events were always followed by, “Hey, I’m not an ice-cream cone!” And then giggles from the kid. Sometimes they’d stop. Sometimes they kept doing it until I had to ask them to stop again. I never had to ask more than twice.

But striking a child hard enough to bust her lip????? Certainly the sign of a man not in control of himself, whatever his mental state may have been.

Comment #71: Chai_Latte  on  06/27  at  07:56 PM

Well I’ve used corporal punishment and am still on the same page as Chai-Latte up there; physically disciplining a four-year-old takes like no force at all. You shouldn’t leave a mark and you really don’t have to. And for fucking licking his hand? The last thing I spanked a child for was because he wouldn’t stop running out into the street. You can’t really spend time arguing the dangers of motor vehicles and blind curves to a toddler but because the kid was fucking licking his hand? A message to un-affectionate trolls burdened with childcare (because I cannot imagine someone who really liked the kid reacting like this) if the kid wont stop licking your hand while you’re putting them to sleep remove your hand while telling them to stop, maybe throw in a lecture about germs, then walk away and find some bread dough to put your slapping energies into.

Comment #72: scrumby  on  06/27  at  08:28 PM

Along with the abuse, the other really, well, problematic thing about the Ball case is that in his “suicide note” he very explicitly urged other men to literally start burning down courthouses and police stations. Amanda alludes to this several times, but it’s worth highlighting this again.

Ball not only urged arson, he offered specific advice on how to construct effective Molotov cocktails. When Dr. Helen speaks of him as a “warrior” she’s simply describing him the way he would have liked to be described, as the guy who fired the first symbolic shot in a campaign of terrorism that (as Ball acknowledged) could result in many people being killed.

As he put it in his suicide note: “Taking casualties in war is just an occupational hazard. ... There will be some casualties in this war. Some killed, some wounded, some captured. Some of them will be theirs. Some of the casualties will be ours.”

That’s just chilling.

Comment #73: manboobz  on  06/27  at  08:55 PM

I feel sad because this guy was pretty clearly mentally ill, and ended up dying for a bunch of poorly-strung-together talking points from other people’s manifestos. But geez, reading between the lines he was also apparently one of the most argumentative, annoying, passive-aggressive (as well as aggressive-aggressive) sadsacks on the face of the planet. He appears to have driven everyone he interacted with, except the lawyers he was paying, to leave town rather than keep dealing with him.  And honed self-destruction to a fine art. (And yeah, the original psych/social worker was absolutely right: 4-year-old shows up at daycare or the doctor’s office or any other reporting-required public place with an obvious adult-caused bloody lip, and either the parents say who did it or they both get arrested.)

I think (quite possibly wrongly) that if it hadn’t been patriarchy, entitlement-based violence and bad decisions about which political crowds to run with, this guy probably would have found some other way to destroy himself. But those things all made it much more difficult for him to get help.
Anyone who uses this guy as anything but

Comment #74: paul  on  06/27  at  09:09 PM

(oops, lose that last line)

Comment #75: paul  on  06/27  at  09:21 PM

Man I just hope to hell that kid who got the busted lip for hand-licking is able to get past her crazy fucking father and develop into a more or less functional human being without too many crippling lifelong phobias and neuroses.

Comment #76: Dan  on  06/27  at  09:40 PM

(because I cannot imagine someone who really liked the kid reacting like this)

Guys like him are narcissistic assholes. He doesn’t “like” anyone; they only exist for him. For guys like him, kids aren’t there for him to love and care for, they’re there as a display of the might power of his penis and the fact that he’s had sex with a woman.

That’s why him and other MRAs whine endlessly about visitation rights, but skip out on child support payments. Because they’re not interested in the well-being of the child; in their mind, the child (and the child’s mother, of course) is their PROPERTY, and being denied that is an affront to them.

Comment #77: Triplanetary  on  06/27  at  09:42 PM

I especially enjoyed the bit at the beginning of this guy’s crazypile where he’s all WELL THIS IS NOT HOW I WAS TAUGHT THE LAW WAS MEANT TO WORK.

It’s like, really? Sounds pretty much exactly like the one I’m acquainted with.

Comment #78: Dan  on  06/27  at  09:43 PM

I thought this was a really great piece, and I agreed with almost all of it. It almost pains me to, but I have to nitpick:

” Apparently, I’m supposed to pretend that suicide isn’t a disruptive, selfish act in many cases (especially when the suicide victim commits it in a public and destructive way), and that people who do it, while yes victims of their own mental health problems, are also thinking that they’re going to make everyone pay for not indulging them. “

Suicide is not a selfish act and is very rarely used as a weapon; we have no proof that that Ball’s suicide was driven by his rage, as he says it was. I think that was his last act of puff-oneself-up hypermasculinity, “I did this because I’m angry, not because I’m hurt” type of thing. Dr. Thomas Joiner has written extensively about the suicide-as-selfish-act and suicide-as-revenge scripts. I highly recommend the book “Myths About Suicide” for any who are interested.

Comment #79: gotthatpma  on  06/27  at  10:03 PM

Maybe it makes me a big jerk to Godwinize, but (as with many things) you can say the same thing about Hitler.

Well, yes. that he killed a bunch of people doesn’t make his death a joyous occasion.

the major dividing line isn’t “how bad does a person have to be” but “how much control do you believe an individual human has.”

I don’t believe it’s much. We are a product of our environment and choices, but our choices, as in what seems like a good idea or bad idea, what we think is moral, and how much we care, are similarly a product of our environment.

I know determinism isn’t particularly popular, but as of the last few years I have trouble justifying free will.

Comment #80: karpad  on  06/27  at  11:29 PM

I have to second gotthatpma.  I was with you, except for the bit they quoted about suicide as a selfish act.  It’d be accurate to say that using suicide to try to control others’ behavior is selfish, but many people attempt suicide because they are thinking about others; their brain chemistry literally causes them to believe that their loved ones would be happier/better off without them.  Which is obviously not what was happening with this jack@$$, but it’s important to differentiate the two things.

Comment #81: vim876  on  06/27  at  11:56 PM

I have to second gotthatpma.  I was with you, except for the bit they quoted about suicide as a selfish act.  It’d be accurate to say that using suicide to try to control others’ behavior is selfish, but many people attempt suicide because they are thinking about others; their brain chemistry literally causes them to believe that their loved ones would be happier/better off without them.  Which is obviously not what was happening with this jack@$$, but it’s important to differentiate the two things.

Comment #82: vim876  on  06/27  at  11:56 PM

As much as we think of the children as better off without the father, your father killing himself in a florid suicide attempt is not easy to deal with.  Parents loom large in a child’s pantheon even if they are evil.

Comment #83: oldfeminist  on  06/27  at  11:58 PM

Oops, omit “attempt” since it was more than that.

Comment #84: oldfeminist  on  06/27  at  11:58 PM

The level of delusion and petulance there (at Dr. Helen’s)...I literally have only ever seen that in prolonged conversation with a 3 year old.

Dr. Helen is one of those women who is convinced that if she hates on all other women enough, the boys will like her so much that she will overcome the shameful status of being female. From her point of view, he hated a woman and that’s the important thing.

Comment #85: mythago  on  06/28  at  03:34 AM

Well oldfeminist, there are a lot of reminforcements to the King of his Castle stuff - from the popculture Ralph Cramden - although the queen there was obviously Alice, indulging the spoiled prince, to something called the castle doctrine - a term for many state laws that allow physical force in protecting your home - standards for self-defense are are lessened if you are in your home and harm an intruder.

Comment #86: phylosopher  on  06/28  at  10:21 AM

Another favorite wingnut meme of late has been to point out Ll the black crime in “Black Run America.”  At least we can credit Obama for coaxing so many of the racist tree-roaches into the sunlight.

Comment #87: elpathos  on  06/28  at  10:34 AM

Someone on “A Voice for Men” compared Wikipedia’s deletion of the article on this jackass to Taliban rule. That’s some crazy hyperbole, but the really shocking part here is the response that comment got:

A taliban society wouldn’t be slaves to the feminists so it doesn’t sound that bad.

Seriously. Someone said that. And it got more thumbs up than thumbs down.

Comment #88: DataSnake  on  06/28  at  11:24 AM

I think the licking incidence comes down to a war of wills. he told her to stop, three times, and she didn’t. that’s an obvious challenge to his authority and it has to be punished. and how would he know she was obeying him if he moved his hand?

it’s remniscent of people who will “housebreak” a dog by shoving its face in its faeces - “because it knows better”

Comment #89: shade  on  06/28  at  02:16 PM

I have attempted suicide, as have two of my friends. For all of us, it was a pretty private thing.

The second you start writing long rambling notes blaming other people for the suicide you’re about to commit, it is not a private thing. When you immolate yourself on the steps of the state capitol, it’s not a private thing.

I’ve had a bf write me the long 4-5 page letter from the hospital after an break up “attempt” (read, half-ass take a bottle of asprin and go get your stomach pumped). It was no where near a private thing. There are people who use suicide as a weapon against other people. In fact, I bet dollars to donuts this guy had no intention of actually dying—he probably thought the nanny state would be out there with fire extinguishers and oxygen tanks before his burns progressed past 2nd degree.

It’s really not that complicated and I don’t see why we should take pains to draw clear distinctions between people who commit suicide because they aren’t considering those around them and people who attempt (and occasionally accidentally succeed at) suicide because they want other people to feel guilty and suffer.

Comment #90: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/28  at  02:43 PM

I bet dollars to donuts this guy had no intention of actually dying—he probably thought the nanny state would be out there with fire extinguishers and oxygen tanks before his burns progressed past 2nd degree.

I was thinking something very similar yesterday reading his letter: that if he ever really intended to go all the way through with it, he almost certainly “changed his mind on the way down.”

Comment #91: GSDavis  on  06/28  at  03:02 PM

Don’t mean to be contrary, but I just heard something on WNYC/Brian Lerher(sp?) - via the “Freakonomics” guy, Steven Dubbner.

It appears that suicide - especially *successful* suicide is most prevalent among middle aged white men.

The mountain west is considered a ‘suicide belt’ partly because of the prevalence of older, single men and also because in rural areas the access to rifles and pistols is greatest.

This guy was certainly ‘wrong’ to do this, but would we take a pathology that effects white women, let’s say anorexia nervosa, and simply write it off as women just being “selfish bitches” in the same way Ball is a ‘selfish prick’ or whatever?

I will allow that the whole mra community as an echo chamber is partly responsible, because they repeat nonsense to each other until they all believe it.

But although it might be ‘necessary’ to point out this guy is wrong, I don’t think it’s ‘sufficient’ if we want to get to the bottom of this.

There is a very much larger implication baked into this incident which I will try to bring up when it is more germane to the post at hand, but for now…

Whenever we see people acting ‘irrationally’ and out of resentment, is it really sufficient just to say, “He’s just jealous and resentful of my accomplishments, (or sexiness or money or education or whatever).”? This isn’t the end of the inquiry - at least if we truly want to understand enough to perhaps change things for the better - this is just the *beginning.*

We can “Oh these crackers are speaking out of ignorance and resentment”- and at least others like us will acknowledge, that yes, it’s the case. But the problem is those people are still there.
They’re still going to be misspelling their teabagger protest signs “We have right’s!” And if they knew we said they were just ‘bad’, they’d probably just say we think they’re bad because we’re bad. It’s easy to do that, so you know they likely will do it.

Is there something more we can do except simply identify theses people as “Manipulative jerks” and just move on? Maybe this *is* as far as we can go, but my optimistic side is simply curious if a more ‘nuanced’ understanding of their motives and mechanisms would help us to reason with them or teach us ways to deal with them and sort of move the ball down the field of progress instead of just saying they’re ‘bad’ people. I will acknowledge that this is more idealistic and hippy dippy even, but it seems worthy of the time of the ‘enlightened’ people we think we are.

Just sayin’.

Comment #92: KingElvis  on  06/28  at  03:15 PM

I realize that the language is frequently co-opted as stalking horses for male abusers. But that shouldn’t mean that we abandon all notions that men have body autonomy and the right to control their reproduction.

If you really think that men’s rights to bodily autonomy are in danger of being abandoned, you’re delusional. Men’s rights to their body are an unspoken assumption in our culture.

Comment #93: Triplanetary  on  06/28  at  03:24 PM

@95—Admittedly, this was a few years old, but I read Kay Redfield Jamison’s *Night Falls Fast,* and she was discussing suicide rates, and it appears that one of the reasons that suicide rates are higher among men is the use of firearms—men are more likely to attempt suicide with a gun, whereas women are more likely to use pills, and the former is just much more effective and causing death than the latter.  Whereas in rural China, women commit suicide at higher rates because they have access to extremely toxic pesticides. 

But Ball’s suicide is not especially typical—most people who commit suicide do it in private, among other things.  So while it’s certainly a problem if suicide attempts and suicides are more common among a certain group, and we shouldn’t write it off, I’m not sure this guy is typical such that calling him a manipulative jerk somehow diminishes the problem.  Killing yourself in a spectacular public fashion in order to hurt your ex-wife and daughter is a disgustingly mean-spirited choice and it just should not be lumped in with those who commit suicide because they suffer from an untreated or undertreated mental disorder or substance abuse problem.

Comment #94: Kit-Kat  on  06/28  at  03:47 PM

It appears that suicide - especially *successful* suicide is most prevalent among middle aged white men.

We’re Number ONE!  We’re Number ONE!

Uhh…

Comment #95: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/28  at  04:15 PM

Kit kat:

It took me some time to adjust to an almost martial ‘bunker mentality’ at Pandagon, but I began to see that, indeed, Teh Crazy is not an abstraction but a very real force that manifests itself with various psycho post responses filled with ferocious denunciations and various links to biblical passages. A defiant and angry response just flows naturally from that.

I just wonder if there’s a kind of “Christmas Special Monster” aspect to these people. The ‘60s cliche being that their monstrous ferocity would be tamed with loving human contact e.g. The Winter Warlock.

They are so clearly hurting - maybe even tormented and in need of…love. But I see some kind of “You’re just resentful, end of story” response bleeding through. If you believe in the Abe Maslow pyramid of human needs, sex/love is second only to food and shelter. Yet I see lots of derision for these dumpy sad sacks. They are so clearly desirous of just pity, let alone intimacy and love, but we can’t even pity them, only criticize them for not being sexy.

I do realize the outrage is being directed at those rallying around this tormented soul. That is legit. Further, I’m not suggesting that we all have to make love with these people to make them feel better. I just wonder if there is a way of understanding their problems and dealing with them that would be more effective than just holding up a mirror to their hostility, even if that’s what they ‘deserve.’

Comment #96: KingElvis  on  06/28  at  06:43 PM

#97: I know what they say about assumptions, but I am going to go ahead and assume this guy was suffering from an untreated mental disorder and/or substance abuse disorder.

Suicide is not selfish, and it’s rarely used as revenge (and when it is the deceased was suffering from some other form of trauma). To Mighty Ponygirl and others, PLEASE check out Dr. Joiner’s “Myths About Suicide.” And to all, please stop using the phrase “commit suicide.” I was honestly surprised to see Amanda M. use it, but I guess it makes sense considering the “selfish” comment.

Comment #97: gotthatpma  on  06/28  at  07:23 PM

Jesus Christ, a guy signs a fucking piece of paper and he’s a soldier. Let me salute you.  Because I served and I have the scars to prove it. I’m so frickin’ sick of guys whining as if signing a fucking piece of paper was a big deal.  No, Chet, there hasn’t been a draft in forty fuckin’ years. Get with the program, Rip Van Whiny.  Your ass is never gonna get drafted.

And don’t even talk about womens’ bodily autonomy. It’s under assault in practically every state.  Thanks a bunch. 

So are little boy babies getting their dicks and balls chopped off? Because that’s what would have to happen to be the equivalent to FGM does to girls. Oh, wait, that’s right.  It’d have to be older boys who know what’s going to happen, are going to be traumatized by it, and still accepted to fuck somehow with all the missing parts gone.  And let’s do it with a piece of unsanitized broken glass, too, to give it actual parity.

Comment #98: ginmar  on  06/28  at  07:35 PM

I read KingElvis, and all I can think of is more male entitlement. Yes, middle-aged men who are not Jamie Dimon or Hank Paulson are done terribly wrong by patriarchy (heck, so are those two; it’s turned them into sociopathic assholes and given them full rein to destroy society in being such) but whose effing job is it to do the emotional, economic and political work to fix that? The light bulb has to want to change.

Comment #99: paul  on  06/28  at  07:45 PM

So are little boy babies getting their dicks and balls chopped off? Because that’s what would have to happen to be the equivalent to FGM does to girls.

Not quite.  A cliterectomy would be the equivalent of chopping off “only” the head of the penis. It’s more difficult to come up with an analogy for infibulation; the labia majora are homologues for the scrotum - perhaps an analogy would be tightening the scrotum up by removing half of it and sewing up the rest.

The female equivalent for a male circumcision would be removal of the clitoral hood.

Comment #100: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/28  at  08:21 PM

They are so clearly desirous of just pity, let alone intimacy and love, but we can’t even pity them, only criticize them for not being sexy.

Are you… are you being serious right now? The dude had a (ex-)wife and kids. He was clearly capable of getting sex. He didn’t do what he did because he was oh so lonely, he did it because he was an abusive asshole who was pissed that the rest of the world didn’t see what a special snowflake he was.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for him because his family was taken away from him? They were taken away from him because he beat them. If he doesn’t want to be lonely all he has to do is not beat his loved ones. I know plenty of men who manage to go their whole lives without deliberately giving a four-year-old a bleeding lip.

So I mean, if you want to spout your Nice Guy bullshit, I would recommend sticking with the passive-aggressive whiny college kids who can’t get laid because they’re too busy pining after women who aren’t interested in them because they’re too afraid of rejection to go after a woman who might be more their type. Physically abusive men don’t make for great Nice Guy paragons, because if they’re alone it’s pretty obvious why (the, y’know, physical abuse).

Comment #101: Triplanetary  on  06/28  at  08:35 PM

I don’t expect the feminist community of women to do any work at all towards these issues.

Well then you’re pretty ignorant. It’s not feminists who have fought to keep women out of combat roles and drafts, it’s sexist men. Feminists have been fighting for a century to achieve the same regard for women in the military as men.

The whole “oh no, men are so oppressed in America because they’re the only ones who can fight on the frontlines and are the only ones required to register for the draft” argument is a crock of shit.

Comment #102: Triplanetary  on  06/28  at  08:40 PM

And never before has Chet been more of a craven liar than now.

Didn’t you have to register for the draft? I did. That doesn’t even get into the regular religious surgical mutilation of infants

Comment #103: ginmar  on  06/28  at  08:46 PM

I just wonder if there is a way of understanding their problems and dealing with them that would be more effective than just holding up a mirror to their hostility, even if that’s what they ‘deserve.’

I had an uncle who was an addict and we used to talk shit about how much of a jerk he was. Every once in a while someone new would come into the family and they’d wonder why we were all so mean and why we didn’t do more to help a man who had such a terrible disease.

Welcome to the family King Elvis. We advocate for more equality and flexibility between genders undermining the hyper-masculine culture behind most sexism in a variety of ways like working on actual men’s right issues like prison reform, gay rights, and sexual assault awareness. Some of us write articles for the Good Man Project or contribute to other positive masculinity organizations. A few choose to simply bestow their sexual favors on progressive-minded fellows perhaps to breed more progressive minded fellows. More combative members will take to the blogs, the forums, and the streets to confront sexism head on with well reasoned arguments, pointed debates, and polite discourse, pulling in the fence sitters, the misinformed, and the “never really thought about it that way"s.
In that same way we put my uncle through rehab, and therapy, and interventions galore to no effect. If he had ever asked for help we would have gone through it all again. But he chose his drugs and was a fucking pain in the ass for it and I’m not going to feel guilty for thinking so. If the MRA’s wanted to really talk about gender relations or issues that really effect men today then I’m all ears, but until then I’m not going to loan them 20 bucks because they’ll just waste it at Kinkos photocopying their manifesto.

Comment #104: scrumby  on  06/28  at  10:00 PM

I just wonder if there’s a kind of “Christmas Special Monster” aspect to these people. The ‘60s cliche being that their monstrous ferocity would be tamed with loving human contact e.g. The Winter Warlock.

Yes, I’m sure all that bad boy needs is the love of a good woman to redeem him.

I have no doubt these men so suffused with hate want love. They want love solely on their terms, and they want permission to treat the people who love them exactly as they like. Their idea of love doesn’t mesh with mine, and probably not with yours either.

Comment #105: junk science  on  06/28  at  11:53 PM

I wonder if she actually was licking his hand (in his mind I bet he had to say she did something weird in order to justify his abuse)? It sounds like a weird thing to do.

Oh, I used to do that all the time.  So did my siblings.  Even once we where no longer four.  The weirdness - but especially the grossness - was the point.  (see below)

If a four-year-old is licking your hand, why not just take your hand away?

Well, since most of the hand licking that happened in my childhood was a result of one child using their hand to try to cover another child’s mouth…

However, I think most of us realize that Ball either didn’t have that bit of common sense or something else was at play here.  I think we all know which to assume here.

yeah.  I mean, he sounds like a complete and total asshole, so it could just be that his daughter was being silly and he thought that kind of violence was appropriate no matter what, it could also be that he was trying to physically restrain her from talking/yelling for reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that she was in bed…but I sure as fuck would not bet on either of those scenarios.

I just want to second whoever said they hoped she has - and will - be able to grow up happy and healthy.

Comment #106: jennygadget  on  06/29  at  04:26 AM

Chet, @100 you equated the constant attack on women’s bodily autonomy with your having to sign a draft card when no draft has been in place in nearly 4 decades and the fact that parents can chose to have their infant sons curcumcized.  Draft is a shadow of a threat and the other is a personal choice a parents, not an attack by law as the threats abainst abortion and BC rights are.  That you can even consider them in the same universe of threat speaks glaringly of your selfishness.
fyi, neither my spouse (mid-40s) nor my son (mid-20s) is circumcized.  My in-laws, and then we, never even considered it;  though I must admit our son’s doctor was suprised not to have try to pursuade us not to do so as he prefered not to do them.

Comment #107: helen w. h.  on  06/29  at  10:44 AM

Triplanetary:

It’s not about indulging the desires of dumpy white guys. What I’m talking about is how ‘enlightened’ people might respond to this. It’s not really about them, it’s about how we are responding to them and it’s about coming to a nuanced conclusion that helps US. By simply calling them ‘evil’ as old feminist does, we get some gratification out of it…but so do they! Hostility is exactly what they want from us and we’re giving it to them.

Comment #108: KingElvis  on  06/29  at  10:49 AM

Well, Helen, Trip, don’t you know?!  A so-nearly-unlikely-it’s-positively-imaginary threat to some guys which guys like Chet have found effortless to avoid——the sole thing they must do is register for the draft, not actually serve———is way way more important than any real,  immediate, damaging, soul-destroying threat to women. 

  Chet’s fears about widdle pieces of paper is as important to him——-well, let’s be honest, it’s more important to him——-than any threat whatsoever to women, and that’s when you realize just how little he gives a shit about women.  He comes here to troll,  that’s how little. 

Cue all the outraged protestations from Chet, now.

Comment #109: ginmar  on  06/29  at  11:42 AM

I don’t know that he comes here to troll, but he can be occationally tone deaf.

Comment #110: helen w. h.  on  06/29  at  12:36 PM

KingElvis

No.  X1000 times NO.

This is the thing that certain self-absorbed, privileged jackoffs do not get: not every conversation exists for your benefit.  Not only are we allowed - just for the hell of it! - to have conversations whose goal is exploring ideas amongst ourselves (rather than trying to convert privileged, self-absorbed jackoffs that think every conversation must somehow benefit them) it’s actually an extremely important conversation to have.

I get how the whole “this is publicly viewable” might confuse a lot of people at first, but since only certain people are allowed to participate in the conversations, the conversations here are very clearly not meant to be completely public conversations.  Just as obviously, the posts and comments are not meant to persuade the unconvinced so much as to clarify ideas amongst people who are open to feminism to begin with.

Now, whether these are actually productive conversations is another question entirely - but I can promise you that the answer to that question has nothing at all to do with how convincing any of these conversations are to the kinds of creeps who are overly sympathetic to assholes that punch their preschoolers in the face and spend years trying to justify that act.

Comment #111: jennygadget  on  06/29  at  02:26 PM

Ginmar - you seriously rock.  Both for having served AND for being a billion times more interesting than Chet’s teeny weeny waggling.

Comment #112: Rare Vos  on  06/29  at  02:37 PM

Circumcision is not something a parent should have a right to choose for an infant, it’s a violation of their right to body ownership if it’s not medically necessary.  It is not equivalent to a lot of FGM, though there are some forms that are for instance, only the removal of the clitoral hood or a pin prick to the clitoris (and yes I do think that’s deeply fucking wrong, but that’s my point: it’s wrong to cut off any part of someone’s body without their informed consent unless they are below the age of medical autonomy and it is medically necessary, and as someone who really loathes the idea of having my clitoral hood surgically removed, that’s another reason why I oppose medically unnecessary male infant circumcision), it is also not equivalent to the denial of abortion rights, but that doesn’t mean it’s right or a right of parents or anyone else.  Plus, there is a chance, small though it may be, that the surgery could go wrong and the infant could end up losing a lot more of their genitals than intended, and I don’t see how that’s a justifiable risk for a medically unnecessary surgical procedure performed without consent and which is a violation of the right to body ownership in the first place.

Comment #113: RadFemHedonist  on  06/29  at  03:13 PM

NOTE: PORTIONS OF THIS POST MAY BE TRIGGERING FOR SOME PEOPLE.

And also, I have had suicidal thoughts for years, and my boyfriend is aware of them, but I’ve always made clear that it would not be his fault if it happened (and have said the same thing about self harming in general) and I try my best to take care of my own mental health so that I can minimise the chance that I’ll ever act on these thoughts (and it seems to be working, I have less and less of these thoughts as time goes on, unfortunately not everyone with mental health issues has as good a support network as I do), I would never kill myself with the intention of hurting someone else, it would be because the pain of living on was unbearable, and I do care about how it would impact my loved ones, but I don’t care about whether you think I’m evil because I COULD NOT BEAR TO GO ON LIVING ANYMORE BECAUSE I WAS SCARED TO EVEN GO TO SLEEP IN CASE I WOKE UP WITH THE WHOLE WAY I THINK CHANGED AND EVERY TIME I EXPERIENCED PLEASURE MY BRAIN WOULD TELL ME THAT I’M A WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT AND CALL ME A BITCH AND A SLUT AND A WHOLE AND TELL ME HOW MUCH BETTER A PLACE THE WORLD WOULD BE IF I CUT MY GENITALS OFF AND WAS REPEATEDLY RAPED TO PUNISH ME FOR USING ENVIRONMENTAL RESOURCES AND EATING NON-FAIRTRADED SWEETS TO COPE WITH THE PAIN.  I bet you’ve never had to deal with that, so don’t you dare act as if there’s no distinction between killing yourself to hurt someone else and killing yourself because your brain will not stop telling you that your existence is anathema to others’ happiness and that you can’t do anything that makes you feel good because you don’t deserve it.  And having to hear this, constantly, for FIVE YEARS.

Comment #114: RadFemHedonist  on  06/29  at  03:26 PM

As this post touches on domestic violence, (albeit through Amanda’s false claims that Ball killed himself to harm his ex-wife), this is quite relevant:

http://i.imgur.com/aob5k.jpg

It’s an image that proves Amanda lied and continues to lie about domestic violence, namely that it is equally committed by women and equally suffered by men.,

Anyone care to comment on this blatant lying by Amanda? Perhaps Amanda herself can explain it?

Comment #115: Celda  on  06/29  at  06:44 PM

Rare Vos….well, much as I dislike to have to criticize a compliment, isn’t that a fairly low bar? Or perhaps…..a short one.  Ahem.

And like other posters, I tried to commit suicide, but I was not and am not an MRA. That means—-in the disordered state of mind I was in at the time——I felt that my suicide would be greeted with relief and happiness by those around me. I felt I was a burden, that I did not deserve to live, that I had nothing to contribute. (One of my online enemies helpfully said that “(I) didn’t deserve to live,” and this was not protested. My diagnosis was known to them, but they felt that they were too special, too hardy, too strong, to ever succumb.)  I made lists of things to be bequeathed to people and told them how much I loved them and appreciated them.  There was nothing anybody could have done, except for, maybe, the jolt that nearly killing one’s self can cause to one’s perceptions.

There’s an interesting article out there about people who try to commit suicide and fail, by jumping from the Golden Gate bridge. They all described suddenly realizing that what they were doing was not a solution, that they wanted to take it back. Some of them now speak out about this.  I think it’s pretty easy to tell the manipulative MRA types and the despairing souls who don’t want to live any more. This asshole made sure he blamed everyone when he didn’t get his way. Others blame themselves, and make sure to let their loved ones know that they are loved, and wonderful, but that the suffering person cannot go on any longer. Of course, fewer guns would help. It’s often a decision made under the crushing pressure of a wave of blows to one’s spirit, circumstances, or life;  when there’s no help and support, well….Guns make it easier.  One reads of suicides of teens and it hurts like nothing else. Those poor kids. If only….

This guy was willing to do this to hurt somebody he knew, but he didn’t care if he hurt a bunch of people he didn’t even know. The comment about the woman who committed suicide in front of a person she took for her ex was horrifying.

  122: Oh,  RadfemHedonist, I can SO SO sympathize with that.

  The one good thing about attempting suicide once was that I got to know when the signs were building up and increasing.  I’ve committed myself voluntarily and will cheerfully tell people that. There’s a stigma about mental illness and suicide that needs to be fought.  People who’ve struggled with depression and mental illness need to be open if they can without endangering their livelyhood, well being, etc., etc., 

Suicide, that newspaper article pointed out, was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I bet if people suffering from crippling depression did not feel so isolated——too many people act like mental illness is contagious, and others can be incredibly condescending to a mentally ill person without being compassionate. Mentally ill people might be in an altered state of reality, but they don’t often suffer a reduction in IQ. Thanks to medication go-round,  I have hallucinations, for example. That doesn’t make me stupid. I know that they’re there, that they’re probably there because I’m worn out by days of no sleep, constant flashbacks, and blinding migraines that make it impossible to see.  This is why this is so clumsily written: night full of phantoms, which often do not go away with daylight. With sleep, they subside. And so forth.  Exhaustion can be mental and physical and emotional and just about everything. 

Sometimes you don’t want to live.

Sometimes life is so very very hard to live.

That is not the same as wanting to die.

  Depression is an illness. If you’re suffering from depression, you are a depressed person, not a loathsome, weak, lazy,  whiny one.

Comment #116: ginmar  on  06/29  at  06:48 PM

I’m a committed feminist

Chet calls himself a feminist, guyz. I guess he can do no wrong.

Comment #117: Triplanetary  on  06/29  at  07:06 PM

There’s an interesting article out there about people who try to commit suicide and fail, by jumping from the Golden Gate bridge. They all described suddenly realizing that what they were doing was not a solution, that they wanted to take it back.

As I recall, the article stated that they all had an epiphany half way down that their problems were not as insurmountable as they thought, and they could probably find a way to cope.  Except for the rather pressing one that they had just jumped off the goddamned bridge.

Comment #118: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/30  at  12:48 AM

The people I’ve known who were serious about suicide had anxiety disorders which made it more or less impossible to feel joy or anything other than continuous mental anguish.  For those whose disorders were successfully treated, they pretty much just came back.  For those whose disorders were untreatable (an aged relative who had suffered a stroke), eventually her body just gave out anyway.

I really like @scrumby’s comment (#111) which talks about the response of a loving family of an addict.  Because that’s how I view the conservative movement and its followers, as a group of people addicted to rage and self-pity.  So no matter how much we offer them access to a life full of joy and love, and no matter how consistently we are completely ready to pay for the therapy, it doesn’t matter.  Conservatives, of which this MRA cause celebre is definitely an example, want to feel the rush of rage and the self-righteousness of self-pity more.  They would rather die than consider some people human.

Comment #119: Punditus Maximus  on  06/30  at  11:22 AM

@Chet: if you cared about what this community is saying, instead of salving your wounded ego, you’d take a break from posting for a few days, then come back.

Comment #120: Punditus Maximus  on  06/30  at  11:24 AM

GInmar - lol touche.  That is a very low, short bar.  But, if I have to skipp past all his waggling to get to the interesting stuff, I’m going to say thanks for the interesting stuff.

Comment #121: Rare Vos  on  06/30  at  12:49 PM

I rarely feel like I have anything substantive to say, so I don’t comment much. That said, if I’m reading this correctly, the 4 year old he hit must be about 14 now. She’s spent her whole life in tumult because of this man, and now in the middle of one of the most awkward parts of anyone’s life, she has to go through this happening, again because of him. I can’t even imagine how anyone can side with him. Hopefully someone is forwarding the writings of “Dr. Helen” to every defense attorney within 500 miles so she can answer for this monstrousness the next time she gets on a witness stand in her professional capacity.

Comment #122: mtbv1  on  07/01  at  08:51 AM

Just had my say about this. Tried speaking from a different angle, since clearly the kind and gentle voice of reason has failed, so I put on my patriarchal hat, and spoke from that angle. Because Ball IS a failure from that angle. Or so I assert, and I think validly.

People defending him really ought to think on what that says about them in the light of their OWN values, before popping off on Amanda and the other “Feminazis” who “drove him to it.” Bullshit.

Comment #123: Graphictruth  on  07/03  at  09:12 PM
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