I can see the new ad copy now:

Do 9-year-olds get your loins tingly?  Are you afraid of the possible legal outcomes of pursuing your desires?  Become a Catholic Priest! Your kid-fucking desires will not only be indulged, we’ll get between you and the law, all the while ensuring more and more kids are available to you!

The Roman Catholic Church. Disneyland for kid-fuckers!

As much as I might hate it, the diplomatic immunity argument may win out.  Also, if charges do get pressed, I can’t see any country getting an extradition order to get the Pope out of the Vatican City.  He may not go on tours to meet his flock, but OTOH, he wont be shown being led away in handcuffs.

I don’t see it included in your link, but a priest (possibly Fitzgerald) charged with “counseling” pedophiles also sent a letter to the Vatican in 1974 stating in no uncertain terms that there is no cure for the priests in his charge and that the Vatican should purchase an island for them to live out their days on in seclusion. That was published last year in the NY Times and I am struggling to find the link. I expected that letter to blow up in their faces and be the last straw, but I guess the combo of Murphy’s abuse of the deaf, the Kentucky lawsuit and these new documents was really the tipping point.

No, he won’t go to jail, but as far as “hearts and minds” go you’re in really deep shit by the time you have to trot out your lawyers to argue sovereign immunity. I look forward to the continued implosion; I don’t think we’re even halfway done.

Does anyone know if we happen to have an extradition treaty with Vatican City?

As much as I might hate it, the diplomatic immunity argument may win out.

Yes, heads of state get a lot of privileges, and Ratzi himself will escape a well-deserved perp walk. He’ll have to “go to the mattresses” in the Vatican along with his fellow criminal Bernie “The Shuffler” Law, but he won’t be extradited.

That said, Americans (including the Catholic laity) are less patient with letting the Church have it both ways: the American bishops and cardinals may not be operating as “employees,” but every time the Church pinches out some turd of a bigoted policy, they state explicitly that their career requires that they take orders from this “head of state”—orders that often obstruct or oppose the civil justice of the United States. That fact, now brought into relief by the claim of sovereign immunity, makes the RCC something more than a religion protected under the First Amendment, especially when the representatives of that foreign national head of state also meddle in American civil referendums (e.g. Prop 8).

It’s time to get out the popcorn, because the Church and its apologists are finally starting to realise that this scandal won’t go away, that decent people are regarding it as more than (as our resident conservative Catholic apologist Dana terms it) “disappointing,” and that there’s a lot more still to be said about this core values of this criminal organisation that led to the systemic enablement of child abuse.

Reply to LindaH @2 -

Then we can invade, like Iraq. Seriously, how many Americans did Hussein hurt or threaten, and how many did Pope Ratzo?

I can’t wait to see him pulled out of a rat-hole with a 2 month beard.

The head of a Roman Catholic order that specialized in the treatment of pedophile priests…

Ok, stop right there.  The fact that they need an entire order to address the problem indicates that THERE’S A BIG FUCKING PROBLEM that should maybe be taken seriously.  *facepalm*

I don’t see it included in your link, but a priest (possibly Fitzgerald) charged with “counseling” pedophiles also sent a letter to the Vatican in 1974 stating in no uncertain terms that there is no cure for the priests in his charge and that the Vatican should purchase an island for them to live out their days on in seclusion.

Really want to see this letter.  Does anybody else have any other details that would make finding it easier?  I’m having a tough time as well.

I’m not sure soveriegn immunity doctrine protects a head of state except when he is acting in that capacity.  The Pope is a head of state when he’s administering the Vatican.  When he’s dealining with church administration issues—partcularly, issues relating to administration of the church in another country, like the US—he’s not acting as a head of state.  Otherwise, every Catholic priest in the US needs to register as an agent of a foriegn power.

rea, IANAL but that sounds right to me. The real barrier to prosecution is political cowardice, but it’s a formidable barrier indeed.

Two words: extraordinary rendition.

rea, you can be head of state and the leader of a church at the same time. Queen Elizabeth is an example.

@DC Fem/lilburro, here’s the NYT article dated 4/2/09:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/us/03church.html?_r=2&hpw;

And here looks to be the letter?

http://documents.nytimes.com/father-gerald-fitzgerald-correspondence-priest-sex-abuse#p=1

And just noticed that’s the letter noted in the post.  Nevermind.

Might be something here?
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Comment #9: rowmyboat on 04/01 at 09:55 AM

Ok, stop right there.  The fact that they need an entire order to address the problem indicates that THERE’S A BIG FUCKING PROBLEM that should maybe be taken seriously.  *facepalm*

It’s not how you think it is.  I did some Googling:

The Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete is a religious congregation of men dedicated to ministry to priests and Brothers with personal difficulties.

The Congregation was founded by Rev. Gerald Fitzgerald in Jemez Springs, New Mexico in 1947. A man of enthusiasm and vision, he began his ministry as a priest in the Archdiocese of Boston and later became a member of the Congregation of Holy Cross. While working as a Holy Cross priest, Father Fitzgerald developed a vision of a religious community whose mission would be to serve the needs of other priests and religious experiencing difficulties in their lives and ministry. His vision led him to the mountains of New Mexico where he founded the Congregation of the Servants of the Paraclete.

Today, the Servants of the Paraclete offer holistic therapeutic programs for priests and religious of St. Michael’s Community in St. Louis, Missouri and Vianney Renewal Center in Dittmer, Missouri.

So no, they are not an order that the higher church authority founded to deal with sexual abuse by priests.  They’re an order, founded by an individual priest’s initiative, that provides services to priests with problems, and apparently this is a common enough problem that they “specialize” in it.

The fact that they need an entire order to address the problem

Fitzgerald founded the order to deal with alcoholic priests. Rehabilitating alcoholics was known to be possible, and the priests could continue to be of service. However, the bishops kept sending him pedo priests, although Fitzgerald soon realized they were beyond reform. That’s why he pursued his Caribbean island idea. (The remainder were fucked up in different ways—some were screwing adult parishioners, even.)

The problem with going after the Pope is that the Church is a franchise operation, like True Value Hardware. The connection between Pope and priest is too tenuous because each bishop runs his own operation, even if they have to follow general guidelines established by franchise headquarters in Rome. If any pedopriest had reported directly or indirectly to Benedict, things would be different, of course. In such a case, the German or Italian governments would logically be the ones to prosecute.

Here in the US, for atrocities committed by diocesan priests, the bishop is the one to go after. For religious orders, the US head of the order is the one to go after.

Forgive me if I’ve mentioned this before, but the Paraclete’s rehab center figures in a novel I read years ago, The Edge of Sadness, by Edwin O’Connor. Part of the plot revolves around a priest who descends into alcoholism, and is successfully rehabbed in the desert Southwest, before being transferred to a marginal parish. I wonder now if alcoholism was not coded for pedophilia, which would have been far too shocking for a novel written fifty years ago.

One of the arguments I always hear against government programs for the poor is that the church can do a better job.  As near as I can tell the only thing the church does a better job of is exploiting vulnerable populations.

I’m afraid that the Vatican is probably going to win out when it comes to blocking the attempt to depose Benedict XVI.  I have to think that the State Department will intervene, and not wanting to ruffle any feathers in Rome, will uphold the Pontiff’s immunity.

I can’t see any country getting an extradition order to get the Pope out of the Vatican City.

As a recognized sovereign nation by the UN, I don’t think anyone can legally extradite the Pope from the Vatican.  Though it is wholly within Rome, Italy, it is its own country, and not subject to the laws of Italy.

Dude, what’s the use of having a Muslim in the White House if he can’t start a reverse-crusade and declare war on the Roman Catholic Church and invade the Vatican to take it back?

Bah.

The Catholic church is unique in that the hierarchy controls everything.  The bishop appoints the pastor, and that’s that. Religious orders literally ship their members all around the world. In contrast, lay members of Protestant churches or Jewish synagogs hire their spiritual leaders, and they can fire them as well.

rea, you can be head of state and the leader of a church at the same time. Queen Elizabeth is an example.

True, but soverign immunity only extends to the acts of the head of state, acting in that capacity.  If Obama runs you over while driving his private car, you can still sue him, even though you couldn’t sue him for signing the health care bill.

Wasn’t there some Catholic prophet/mystic who claimed that Benedict XVI would be the last pope? Sorry, next to the last:

“The Prophecy of the Popes, attributed to Saint Malachy, is a list of 112 short phrases in Latin. They purport to describe each of the Roman Catholic popes (along with a few anti-popes), beginning with Pope Celestine II (elected in 1143) and concluding with a pope described in the prophecy as “Peter the Roman”, whose pontificate will end in the destruction of the city of Rome.”

Here’s hoping the Rome destruction part doesn’t happen, but cheers.

The problem with going after the Pope is that the Church is a franchise operation, like True Value Hardware. The connection between Pope and priest is too tenuous because each bishop runs his own operation, even if they have to follow general guidelines established by franchise headquarters in Rome.

A good description. Satisfying as it would be to see Papa Prada brought to justice, the realistic focus (especially given these documents) should be on investigating and prosecuting the American hierarchy for criminal conspiracy to obstruct of justice. If they’re American citizens, they’re not above the law, and possession of a mitre or Vatican passport doesn’t change that.

Any American bishop or cardinal or head of order who refuses to co-operate with the authorities in a criminal investigation should be invited to surrender his American passport and leave the U.S. forever—it’s not justice by a long shot, but it would eliminate most of Ratzi’s lackeys and cronies from the American hierarchy and go a long way to destroying the Vatican’s power in the American Church. Eventually we’d end up with an American hierarchy that takes child abuse seriously, or the dead husk of what was once the Vatican’s cash cow. I’d prefer the latter, but I’d settle for the former.

@__V__

thanks for the article.  I think that must be what DCFem is referring to…correct me if I’m wrong though.  From the NYT link you gave:

Father Fitzgerald, who died in 1969, even made a $5,000 down payment on a Caribbean island where he planned to build an isolated retreat to sequester priests who were sexual predators. His letters show he was driven by a desire to save the church from scandal, and to save laypeople from being victimized. He wrote to dozens of bishops, saying that he had learned through experience that most of the abusers were unrepentant, manipulative and dangerous. He called them “vipers.”

This is fascinating.  Also the Caribbean, really??  WTF?

The worst thing that can realistically for Papa Ratzi is that he has to go into seclusion in the Vatican the rest of his life. This isn’t unheard of, IIRC Popes did this from the time unified Italy annexed Rome until the 1929 Lateran Treaty because the Church refused to recognize the Italian Kingdom.

Realistically, I don’t think any government would arrest the pope.

He wrote to dozens of bishops, saying that he had learned through experience that most of the abusers were unrepentant, manipulative and dangerous. He called them “vipers.”

So, see, it’s possible to be a priest and get it.  There’s no excusing what the bishops did.

The Roman Catholic Church. Disneyland for kid-fuckers!

But… isn’t Disneyland Disneyland for kiddie-fiddlers, then?

I was just wondering, has any Pope ever voluntarily resigned, ever?

Er, I guess I should say abdicate since it’s an elective monarchy.

Ben D., only one pope has resigned/abdicated of their own violation: Celestine V, who felt that he was unworthy of the job… and was later canonized. Several others have made arrangments to resign if they became mentally incapable, including JPII, and about six have been pushed out due to conflicts within the church.

True, but soverign immunity only extends to the acts of the head of state, acting in that capacity.  If Obama runs you over while driving his private car, you can still sue him, even though you couldn’t sue him for signing the health care bill.

If the BSA can claim that homobigotry is a core part of their mission, I’m sure the RCC can claim in court that protecting pedophiles is a core part of theirs…

But I think that officially making the claim that the buck stops because the Vatican is a foreign government puts bishops and priests in another difficult position, namely as unregistered agents of that government. And insofar as they’re breaking US law at the orders of the head of a foreign government, um, well, there can be rather severe sanctions for that sort of thing. (Albeit I wonder if vestments count as a uniform.)

There are also a ton of documents at http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Ben D., only one pope has resigned/abdicated of their own violation: Celestine V, who felt that he was unworthy of the job… and was later canonized. Several others have made arrangments to resign if they became mentally incapable, including JPII, and about six have been pushed out due to conflicts within the church.

Of course, before the modern era (since the Counter-Reformation or so), the Pope was, ah, very different. He was a monarch of a lot more than just priests and bishops, and as such was invested with both spiritual and temporal power (actually, this continued into the 1800s). Before the Counter-Reformation, Popes were notoriously corrupt and venial, very much NOT servants of God. (See how many popes had “nephews” for example). Ironically, the Counter-Reformation may have led indirectly to the current straits by making the Church as a whole be much more concerned with strict application of its theology.

In 1960 a joint Mossad-Shin Bet team captured Adolf Eichmann in a country with strong fascist loyalties and brought him to Israel. Israel chose a clandestine operation as the method because they knew that requesting extradition through legal channels not only would fail, but would also give Eichmann the chance to vanish again, perhaps permanently. To the best of my recollection, there were no severe negative repercussions for Israel.

Can anyone say “precedent”? The parallel is not perfect, but I think it’ll do. It couldn’t be too hard to put together a Special Ops team to do something similar in the Vatican. Hell, if the logistics can be arranged quickly the operation would even fall on the 50th anniversary of Eichmann’s capture. I speak Italian and know Rome very well, happy to help with the logistics if they need me.

We can discuss later who’ll play me in the resulting movie.

Someone on MSNBC this morning pointed out that being a head of an independent state does not mean that the International Criminal Court, at least, can’t prosecute you. Still I don’t see any kind of trial or arrest happening even if charges were brought up. Again, he’d hole up in the Vatican the rest of his life, and I don’t think the Italians would have the will to “invade” the Vatican City and drag him out.

I think it would be really hard, in the absence of a doc. with his signature or some really strong testimony to “get” the pope, even if he is morally responsible.

But someone should start going after the bishops.  I am proud of Father Fitzgerald, but deeply ashamed that no one listened to him, and that I assumed that the church just didn’t understand that these predators couldn’t be fixed with a little therapy and confession.  Although that level of naive stupidity would still be very, very blameworthy, the fact that they deliberately ignored the fact that these predators could not be and were not reformed is even worse.  But neither one is acceptable or tolerable.

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