Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “And Roller Skates!” Edition Previous entry: If you can’t do it for the country, do it for yourselves

19% premiums - a postscript

It’s not (at least, not entirely) that I feel compelled to respond to this particular bullshit:

You guys ever stop whining and crying?  Ewww.  Every time Auguste posts you can see the tears flowing.

It’s that I hope that people who are not as perniciously selfish as Libertarian are not inadvertantly drawing the conclusion he’s jumping to. In other words, I’m hoping that the rhetorical weakness I’m about to cop to, the one he was able to exploit, isn’t leaving more well-meaning types with a bad taste in their mouth.

I’m pissed about my personal situation. I don’t particularly enjoy dropping the first 1/5 of my income into a massive well of disallowed charges and 20% coinsurance. But, as I said, that situation is going to change soon. And yet I still posted about it.

Why is that? Is it because I’m so injured, so oppressed by the fact that I worked until March 20th this year before I paid off my yearly health insurance premiums* that, even though I’m about to experience serious financial relief, I still had to burden you all with my terrible, personal tragedy?

No. I posted because I’m not the only one. You see, unlike some people, progressives generally tend to see past their own circumstances to what those circumstances imply about society in general.

I make a good living, frankly. I mean, there are a lot of medical bills to contend with, but they’re not prohibitive. I work in a job I like, live in a neighborhood I like, never worry about food or clothing. I do that, because I am lucky enough to be able to contend with a 20% hit to my gross. And that’s what I tried to get across, with the implied understanding that a lot of people - most people - absolutely cannot contend with such a hit, in addition to their taxes**. And the implied understanding is the rhetorical weakness I referred to. Because, despite the fact that I’ve been doing this blogging thing for a long time, I forget - seriously, I do! - that there are readers out there so crippled by their own moral bankruptcy that they are not able to extrapolate to such a conclusion.

There are people who read about a blogger who is giving the insurance companies money as fast as they can take it, and do not automatically realize the broader implications of such an anecdote. Who don’t immediately consider that such a thing acutely helps explain where 47 million uninsured might come from: Not laziness, not irresponsibility, but the inability to spare 20% of gross or more. Who don’t immediately think “Well, maybe there’s something in the argument that universal health care is the only way to make sure we don’t continue to lose 28,000 people a year simply because they can’t afford to stay alive.”

I forget that, and it takes comments like Libertarian’s to remind me, even if Libertarian himself isn’t worth the energy it took to write this post. Because just maybe some of the people I described above wouldstop thinking that way, if only they can find an anecdote that breaks through.

* See, Libertarians? Liberals can do the “Tax Freedom day” routine, too.
** And yes, a public option will raise taxes, to an extent. They won’t raise them 20%. Feel free to not trot out that as a counter-argument, thanks.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Auguste on 05:04 AM • (118) Comments

One thing that falls flat with the whole “they want me to pay for their healthcare” bullshit is the false implication that “public option = free healthcare”. 

Not even remotely true.  Some people who take the public option - the poorest people out there - will have the cost of their healthcare fully subsidized by taxpayer money.  However, for most of the people who decide to take the public option, they’ll still be required to pay a premium and deductibles, only the premiums and deductibles will actually be affordable and the option will be good enough that people won’t have to treat it as “to be used in case of emergency only” coverage, as is the case for many who currently have private insurance, but can’t afford the outrageous out-of-pocket costs associated with it.

The public option is not, and will never be, “free healthcare for everybody”.  I have no idea how people got that into their minds, but it is not true.  It is an alternative affordable (not free) option to what we currently have now.  If you have an income that is decent, and you want to take the public option, you will be expected to pay some money out of your own pocket, assuming your income is high enough that you can afford to do so.  But you won’t be financially crippled by the out of pocket costs, and you won’t have to make a choice between eating for the next month and getting that lump examined.

It is also the only means to true healthcare reform.  I desperately hope that Congress and the White House wakes up to this reality, because if they don’t they could be committing political suicide.  Don’t take away the public option and give me a mandate to buy private health insurance, because that will only make the situation worse, and it will probably guarantee a one-term presidency for Barack Obama.

And to channel Barney Frank for a moment, trying to debate healthcare reform with a libretardian is like trying to argue with a dining room table.

Comment #1: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  06:07 AM

@DTG, I saw the Obama Healthcare townhall with Organizing for America yesterday.  I found it different from other Obama speeches in that he was talking directly to his body of community organizers, and giving them tips on how to sell the health care reform.  He spoke about being committed to a public option.  And when he talked about downplaying the public option, it was specifically a SELLING POINT.  “Don’t lean too hard on the public option, because all the happily insured people will ask, what’s in it for me?  To them you need to talk about how our current system is not sustainable—explain how if they are happily insured now they will NOT be in 5 years.  The public option is only ONE PART of the reform, talk to those happily insured people about lower deductibles, lower premiums, talk about the public option as a way to keep the insurance companies’ costs down through competition, etc.”

Quotes are approximate, of course, but I’m sure there will be a transcript available.  The point is he seems to be deliberately trying to downplay the public option because it scares people (“People screamed ‘socialism’ when FDR introduced Social Security!  People screamed ‘socialism’ when Medicare was introduced!  People have been screaming socialism for 75 years!”) and because they might not see the specific help for them in it (vs. lower deductibles, no yearly or lifetime caps, etc.).

I was heartened.

Comment #2: Siobhan  on  08/21  at  08:31 AM

More reasons I associate capital-L Libertarians with high school debate club nerds: most 15-year-old boys think they’re the centre of the world, think they’re invincible, and have a vague understanding if something bad happens their mommy and daddy will take care of things.

Also, I’m guessing that most of the ones who show up here (including the two mooks in the other thread) are only $250-thousand-aires in the make-believe, JoeDuhPlumbah sense.

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  08:44 AM

As I said in one of the other threads, here in the UK, where I really am paying for other people’s genuinely free healthcare, my combined NI and income tax comes to 22% of my gross. That’s not just healthcare, that’s my entire direct contribution to central government and the welfare state. You can tack on another 5% for local direct taxation.

Compared to what you guys seem to pay in taxes plus insurance, that looks like a pretty bloody good deal to me - and that’s without taking into account the fact that you seem to get less for your money.

Comment #4: Dunc  on  08/21  at  08:49 AM

The public option is not, and will never be, “free healthcare for everybody”.  I have no idea how people got that into their minds, but it is not true.  It is an alternative affordable (not free) option to what we currently have now.

Interesting how extreme free marketeers are so frightened of a little competition for the handful of major private insurers—especially since they also claim that government can’t do anything well compared to the large corporations they worship.

Comment #5: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  08:49 AM

More reasons I associate capital-L Libertarians with high school debate club nerds: most 15-year-old boys think they’re the centre of the world, think they’re invincible, and have a vague understanding if something bad happens their mommy and daddy will take care of things.

Yes, Gracchus.  And if you happen to find a middle-aged Libertarian, they will have switched out mommy and daddy for a patriarchy accepting SAHM, who caters to their every whim.  Either that, or they’re still living in mommy’s basement and are single.

Comment #6: phylosopher  on  08/21  at  09:44 AM

I like to tout the public option as a means to real freedom, too.  Something you might choose to use oh, when going back to school fulltime to change careers, or a DIY project, or take care of a sick parent or child, or heck , any child, or start your own business, or pursue a lifelong ambition. Libertairians live in the dreamworld that Gracchus outlined above, while the public option could make that dream a reality for many.

Comment #7: phylosopher  on  08/21  at  09:49 AM

I like to tout the public option as a means to real freedom, too.  Something you might choose to use oh, when going back to school fulltime to change careers, or a DIY project, or take care of a sick parent or child, or heck , any child, or start your own business, or pursue a lifelong ambition. Libertairians live in the dreamworld that Gracchus outlined above, while the public option could make that dream a reality for many.

The problem is that many of the loudest “Libertarians” - especially on the internets - are actually neo-feudalists who are perfectly happy living in a corporate state where they swear fealty to a particular corporation in exchange for protection.  Many of them are actively looking for a strong leader who will show them loyalty so that they can worship him like the kings of old.  Randoids are the worst with this, though it infests most of libertarianism here in the midwest at least.  This is also why a lot of libertarians have an apocalyptic mindset - not of the Christian Rapture variety, but of the stockpiling guns and canned beans so that I can be a king when the Big One hits and civilization is destroyed variety.

There are some libertarians out there who are honestly interested in liberty and freedom - and as they get older IME they tend to drift towards liberalism because it becomes pretty damn obvious that corporate coercive power is in many ways worse than State power, and that regulation of corporations by State actors may not be nearly as evil as they previously believed.  Once you arrive at that realization, remaining a hardcore libertarian becomes nearly impossible because the entire philosophy of “limited government” is shown to be untenable in the face of corporate power.

Comment #8: NonyNony  on  08/21  at  10:14 AM

Why is it that whenever someone shows compassion or empathy with the plight of others a “libertarian” accuses them of whining? What’s with that? Just because I’m not in the same boat as Auguste or the 46 million Americans without health insurance, I don’t think I’m whining because I support a public option where they will PAY for health care.

And Republicans/Libertarians need to STFU with the false equivalencies. There is no one on the Democratic side of the aisle carrying signs with swastikas or yelling “heil Hitler” at Israeli Jews at health care town halls. If anyone is “demonizing those with whom they disagree” it is now and always has been the Republicans. Obama has not once called any of the folks screaming at town halls bigots even though that is exactly what they are. Obama supporters are not waving signs with Palin on them with a tiny mustache. Health care reform advocates are not carrying guns to places where people have the right to free assembly.

Comment #9: DC Fem  on  08/21  at  10:21 AM

When I read comments like that, I hear, “I’m a spoiled brat who has never faced a day of struggle in my life, and the second that I have any problems, I will crumple up into a ball and show the world what a real cry baby looks like.”

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:21 AM

Plus, your complaints about health insurance don’t hold a candle to the whining and crying and bellyaching and non-stop victim parade moaning of libertarians when talking about taxes.  And they actually get something for their money!

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:23 AM

In which August converts his “Give me more of Libetarian’s money theme” to “Give lots of people more of Libertarian’s money.” Oh boy.  Like I’m not already working until August to pay taxes (money the gov’t mostly just gives to other people), insurance etc.  Nice of the big A to leave me a bit to play with for, oh, food, etc.

You lying fucking sack of shit, even if your name is Warren fucking Buffett, you ARE NOT working until August to pay your taxes.  NOBODY in the United States is paying 67% of their income in taxes, as your claim of “working until August to pay my taxes” implies.

Seriously, why don’t you go fucking commit suicide for the good of all humanity.  And by “commit suicide” I mean go drink a gallon of Clorox Bleach so that your your entire gastric system melts and you die in a pool of shit and blood coming out of your ass, which would be a more dignified way of kicking the bucket than you actually deserve.

You are a worthless shitstain on humanity.  Go the fuck away.  I’m sick of your kind shitting all over blogs I like to read.  Get the fuck out of here.  Nobody likes you or wants anything to do with you, asshole.

Comment #12: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  10:32 AM

Seriously, you want crybabies?  What about the teabaggers?  Good lord, it’s like non-stop crying.  Freaking out and weeping because they might have to share waiting rooms with poor people.  Whining and crying because someone on minimum wage might get the same health care they do.  Going into temper tantrums that would put the most aggressive toddler to shame over the fact that we elected a black President, and it turned out that was legal.  BOO HOO! That homeless man you step over on the way to your air-conditioned office job might be able to get treated for that persistent cough, and you just want him to die so that he can’t be on your sidewalk anymore.  BOO HOO!

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:34 AM

Oh, how dare we whine and cry about people dying?  How stupid of us to actually care when fellow human beings are freaking dying!  Libertarians might prefer to tell uninsured people to just fuck off and die, but I’m proud that I’m not such a selfish jerk.  If people dying and suffering unnecessarily isn’t important enough to whine and cry over, then what is?

Comment #14: bananacat  on  08/21  at  10:35 AM

DTG, Libertarian is a bad person, no doubt, but he is a person.  And as such, we shouldn’t wish on him the death he’d wish on 46 million inconveniently underinsured Americans.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:36 AM

Shorter Libertarian:

Contributing to a society that I vastly benefit from? Horror!

People dying unnecessarily? Meh, not a problem as long as it allows me to leech more off of society.

Comment #16: bananacat  on  08/21  at  10:40 AM

Most of the libertarians I know don’t tend to pay taxes—they either have an accountant who’s able to finagle them enough loopholes to where they don’t owe anything, or they just don’t pay. They still pay sales taxes, and they bitch about those constantly. They still pay payroll taxes, and they bitch about those constantly. If you bring up roads, fire departments, police, military, etc., they just sneer “Be serious,” and go back to their whining.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a libertarian contributing to any sort of charity either. “Why should I pay for losers who can’t become successes like me?”

Their only interests in life seem to revolve around getting and keeping money, and sneering at people for perceived weaknesses, like poverty, illness, not being rich, having a functioning sense of empathy. They do seem to have some weird hostility toward the concept of empathy…

Comment #17: Scott  on  08/21  at  10:41 AM

Sorry, I’m just really pissed off today about the fact that a very tiny segment of the country is somehow managing to control this extremely important debate, and they think it’s a cute little game.

77% of Americans support a public option.  SEVENTY-SEVEN freaking percent.  This is an absolute no-brainer.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693

And yet… the oppostion is somehow being treated as an equal player in the debate, and we’re supposed to bow to their wishes.

I’m just feeling ill over this whole thing.

Comment #18: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  10:42 AM

I mean, libertarian whines and cries like a baby soaked in 20 pounds of baby shit in this thread.  BOO HOO!  I can’t be a free rider! Why don’t you guys pay my taxes for me, and I’ll just enjoy the benefits.  BOO HOO!  Why doesn’t the world coddle me like my patronizingly patient wife does?  BOO HOO!

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:44 AM

Most of the libertarians I know don’t tend to pay taxes—they either have an accountant who’s able to finagle them enough loopholes to where they don’t owe anything, or they just don’t pay.

They’re all a bunch of leeches.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a libertarian contributing to any sort of charity either.

And yet, their whole philosophy relies on people being generous enough to choose to give back to society.

They do seem to have some weird hostility toward the concept of empathy…

Isn’t that the definition of a sociopath?

Comment #20: bananacat  on  08/21  at  10:46 AM

The woman who yelled “Heil Hitler” at the Israeli guy and then pulled a Libertarian and mocked his genuine pain is what you get when attitudes like Libertarian’s are treated as anything short of the cultural sociopathy they are.  The mask is off.  Rush Limbaugh actually told a man who broke his wrist and was slapped with a $6,000 bill to fix it that he shouldn’t have broken his wrist.  As if he was like, “You know what would be fun to do today?  Fall down the fucking stairs.  Surely that won’t cost me anything in America!” 

That’s what you get from attitudes like Libertarian’s.  So busy boo-hooing that they’re expected to be a team player if they get team benefits that they slide into mocking a) people with serious chronic illnesses b) the Holocaust and c) people who had a very minor and understandable slip-up resulting in an injury.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:51 AM

I hate to pull this card, but seriously: Love it or leave it, Libertarian.  If you really think it’s so great living in without civilization, there’s places on this planet with no real government.  And you even get to stock up on weapons and run the high risk of getting into shoot-outs as people squabble over resources!  Fun!  Just don’t expect to have a decent and affordable hospital nearby when you get shot.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/21  at  10:54 AM

Seems like a good time to review this impossibly perfect cartoon about libertarians...

Comment #23: Scott  on  08/21  at  10:58 AM

I know a 30-year-old libertarian who’d like to do away with Medicare even though her parents are on it (after paying into the system since 1965). She says she and her brother would help them with their health expenses if Medicare went away. Now, which for-profit insurers are keen on providing competitively priced comprehensive plans for senior citizens, exactly? And just how easy would it be for two young adults to help a parent pay for treatment for cancer, heart attack, or stroke?

(Said libertarian also thinks charity should cover the health care needs of the 45 million uninsured. Yep, ‘cause that’s working so nicely already.)

Comment #24: Orange  on  08/21  at  11:01 AM

Libertarian -

Selfishness is not a virtue, regardless of what that sociopathic idiot Ayn Rand said.  You enjoy tremendous benefits for the taxes you pay in the form of roads, police and fire protection, safe food, a safe workplace, legal protections from fraud and abuse, and much more.  Taxes are a small price you pay for the manifest benefits of living in a society with other people, a society which has fed, and clothed, protected, and educated you.  You did not get where you are4 today on your own and you could not survive on your own.

Comment #25: DrDick  on  08/21  at  11:02 AM

I hate to pull this card, but seriously: Love it or leave it, Libertarian.  If you really think it’s so great living in without civilization, there’s places on this planet with no real government.  And you even get to stock up on weapons and run the high risk of getting into shoot-outs as people squabble over resources!  Fun!  Just don’t expect to have a decent and affordable hospital nearby when you get shot.

Ther is actually this little country on the other side of the world where the oligarchs rule, the government has no real power, and he who can rape and pillage the most gets to be the top dog in his territory.

It’s called Somalia.

And it’s the full realization of the libertarian dream.

He should go to Somalia, where he won’t have to worry about the evil state taking his money (or providing roads, police, fire protection or any other basic services, for that matter).

Comment #26: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  11:04 AM

I hate to pull this card, but seriously: Love it or leave it, Libertarian.  If you really think it’s so great living in without civilization, there’s places on this planet with no real government.

Oh, he’d never do that. Ultimately, he knows that libertarianism is bullshit. It’s why you never see libertarians going galt, why you never see libertarians moving to the Libertarian Paradise of Somalia. They know that actually putting their money where their mouth is would only lead to a bunch of dead libertarians, so they’ll never, ever do it.

It must suck to know that your entire political philosophy has been conclusively and permanently debunked by a single “Bob the Angry Flower” cartoon.

Comment #27: Scott  on  08/21  at  11:04 AM

the Obama/Alinsky methods

Not only does Libertarian hate America, he’s a deranged conspiracy theorist too. Who’s surprised?

Comment #28: asdf  on  08/21  at  11:13 AM

Maybe or maybe not on topic: out of curiosity, and speaking of Somalia, where does someone like Derrick Jensen (of Endgame 2’s “women won’t get raped more than they do now if/when civilization collapses” ideas) fit into all this?  I’m too pressed for time/lazy to read the man’s body of work, but the bits I’ve read struck me as a little…

Comment #29: Ranylt  on  08/21  at  11:20 AM

I said in a thread yesterday about Corwin, but it applies just as well to Libertarian here:

Since Corwin is so against collective benefit, I propose he no longer receive mail, be allowed to drive on roads, or receive police, fire or EMT assistance.  His children cannot attend any school that receives government funding.  He must pay pre-subsidized prices for his food, and purchase his health insurance not from his employer (since that is regulated).  He will not receive social security or medicare, and will, in return, be exempt from paying taxes.


Also, as I ranted to an acquaintance today, there is no such thing as a “social liberal, fiscal conservative.” Fiscal conservatives are against programs that would help the poor (who are primarily minorities), which is a social stance. Just saying “I don’t care who you fuck” if you’re still willing to throw huge segments of the population under the proverbial bus ISN’T OK and isn’t “socially liberal.”

Comment #30: Siobhan  on  08/21  at  11:21 AM

I know a 30-year-old libertarian who’d like to do away with Medicare even though her parents are on it (after paying into the system since 1965). She says she and her brother would help them with their health expenses if Medicare went away.

Her parents probably haven’t hit any major, unexpected health crisises yet.

My ILs were healthy people in their late 60s, barely touching Medicare for anything, until the DAY when my FIL herniated a disc in his back, and my MIL broke her foot (yes, this happened the same day).

My FIL’s disc herniated in such a way to make him partly paralyzed in both legs; two surgeries and 2 years of PT later, he’s finally walking and driving again.  My MIL’s foot has simply refused to heal, and she’s about to undergo another surgery to remove the pins that have been put in because they’re causing more pain than help.

And their total medical bills combined from that one day currently amount to about a quarter of a million dollars.

Comment #31: hp  on  08/21  at  11:21 AM

And their total medical bills combined from that one day currently amount to about a quarter of a million dollars.

And that is the reason my dyed-in-the-red, Democrat-hating ILs support both health care reform and the public option. I was actually thinking about hiding from them this last visit because I expected conversation non-stop ranting of sound bites straight from Limbaugh’s radio waves to my ears, and that was not what I got.

Comment #32: hp  on  08/21  at  11:26 AM

My Rotary club has sponsored

As I live and breathe, a Rotarian Socialist who actually belongs to the Rotary Club!

And really, Libertarian, altruism? Ayn Rand would be ashamed.

Comment #33: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  11:29 AM

Also, as I ranted to an acquaintance today, there is no such thing as a “social liberal, fiscal conservative.”

A “social liberal, fiscal conservative” is simply a conservative who likes sex, porn and weed. They’re rarely that socially liberal when it comes to other people. (And even less so when it comes to Other people, if you see what I mean…)

Comment #34: Dunc  on  08/21  at  11:34 AM

Ha! I thought when I read that part, “Gracchus is going to love this.”

Comment #35: asdf  on  08/21  at  11:36 AM

I’ve known a lot of libertarians (having lived in Texas, Montana, and South Carolina; I’m related to many as well), and every single one has been nothing but a lazy, useless, self-entitled burden on Capitalism.  I hear all the bluster about the money they say they earned being given to people who don’t deserve it, yet I’ve never known one that actually earned their paycheck.

If they want to be intolerant of freeloaders, they need to start in their own houses.

Comment #36: Firebert  on  08/21  at  11:38 AM

“I do lots of volunteer work.  I give many hours and dollars for health related volunteer blah blah blah blah blah blah blah “

This line of most-likely-bullshit is actually a good example of the pernicious selfishness of libertarians and republicans.  The point is not to help people, the point is to get credit for helping people.  There’s little difference in between the government saving a life and a private charity saving a life.  It’s still a life saved.

But if Libertarian just pays his taxes, he doesn’t get to preen and boast about how he helped someone.

Notice that the detailed description of his selflessness dominates his post.

Comment #37: Slamhound  on  08/21  at  11:40 AM

And their total medical bills combined from that one day currently amount to about a quarter of a million dollars.
And that is the reason my dyed-in-the-red, Democrat-hating ILs support both health care reform and the public option. I was actually thinking about hiding from them this last visit because I expected conversation non-stop ranting of sound bites straight from Limbaugh’s radio waves to my ears, and that was not what I got.

This is why the issue is like the Terri Schiavo case.  Republicans thought they had it in the bag, but were stunned to find most of America pissed off at their interference.  Too many people have had to deal with family members dying slowly and have had to deal with end of life issues.  Most of us will end up having to deal with them (should Swift, Merciful Death decide to slack off and let Slow Miserable Rotting do the job instead).

77% now support the public option.  They support it b/c the current system SUCKS ASS.

As for Libertarian?  That leech is the reason we can’t have nice things.

Comment #38: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/21  at  11:50 AM

I am reminded of Craig T. Nelson on some talk show ranting that he had been on food stamps and welfare and no one ever helped HIM.

Comment #39: Siobhan  on  08/21  at  11:51 AM

I do resent this a bit “people who are not as perniciously selfish as Libertarian.” Well, I’m not.  In addition to giving the gov’t lots of my money to give to other people like A (who enjoy having the gov’t steal it from me), I do lots of volunteer work.

In other words, you want to be the lord of the manor:  you want people to have to bow down and thank you for the scraps of charity you deign to give them.  If they get their heart operations through everyone pooling their tax money together, then they have no reason to be thankful to you personally, which makes you just another schmuck like everyone else.

And I hate to break it to you, but if Auguste is only working until March to pay off his burden and you’re working until August, it’s not because you’re paying higher taxes.  It’s because he’s making more money than you are.  And then he goes and acts like a class traitor by saying he wants to participate in society as a citizen instead of trying to make himself into a petty aristocrat who can dole out charity at his whim.  No wonder you’re jealous of him.

Comment #40: Mnemosyne  on  08/21  at  11:52 AM

“We also hold special fundraisers for local families who have suffered medical disasters - for example, we repeatedly gave money to family with a young child with leukemia.” - Libertarian.

Oh good for you libertarian.  Instead of supporting a comphrensive health care plan so parents of children with cancer do not have to beg shitstains like you, you get to decide who is “worthy” of healthcare.

Listen here, and listen good: The stress of having a kid of cancer does not need to be compounded with having to worry about going bankrupt because you have to depend on sanctimonious pieces of crap like you who feel get to feel all warm and fuzzy inside because they gave $2.00 to the Leukemia and lymphomia society even though the mother and father of the child with cancer are not getting any sleep because they don’t know if there will be enough money to the HALF A MILLION DOLLARS it will cost to treat it.

Seriously, take your pennies and shove them up your ass.

Comment #41: kitten parade  on  08/21  at  11:56 AM

If increasing my taxes means I pay fewer (or lower) expenses out-of-pocket than I pay now, I consider that a pretty good deal.  Even if the increase is not revenue-neutral, the security of knowing I (and others) will always be able to see a doctor or other health care professional is worth the expense to me.  *shrug*

Sure, there are particular things - like this nation’s overextended military empire - that I don’t particularly want to pay for via my taxes, but that doesn’t render invalid the notion of taxation in my view.  Taxes are a cost of living in a society in which our lives are generally less nasty, brutish, and short than they would be otherwise.  Again, *shrug*.

Comment #42: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  11:56 AM

DTG:

If Somalia is too far, Libertarian can try Haiti. It’s not completely a libertarian paradise, since there is some central government, but there’s not enough to do policiing or build roads or supply water or sewage treatment. So it should work out OK for him.

The sad thing is, propertarians would almost all be perfectly happy to sign contracts agreeing that they would never get subsidized care if they fell ill, because they believe it won’t happen to them. But the rest of us would never be willing to enforce.

Comment #43: paul  on  08/21  at  12:03 PM

We also hold special fundraisers for local families who have suffered medical disasters - for example, we repeatedly gave money to family with a young child with leukemia.

Were those special fundraisers bakesales, perhaps?

And what criteria did your org’s “death panel” use to determine whether or not this child should continue to receive those healthcare funds?

Comment #44: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  12:04 PM

Listen here, and listen good: The stress of having a kid of cancer does not need to be compounded with having to worry about going bankrupt because you have to depend on sanctimonious pieces of crap like you who feel get to feel all warm and fuzzy inside because they gave $2.00 to the Leukemia and lymphomia society even though the mother and father of the child with cancer are not getting any sleep because they don’t know if there will be enough money to the HALF A MILLION DOLLARS it will cost to treat it.

My stepfather has a colleague who has a son with Down’s syndrome.  This child’s case is especially severe, and he will require extensive lifelong care.  The colleague and his wife have already reached their maximum lifetime benefit under their health insurance plan and are now “uninsurable.”  They face the very real spectre of bankruptcy.

Anecdote, yes, but I think a very powerful one.

Comment #45: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  12:05 PM

And, you all prove my point that you can not see that others can genuinely disagree with you and still be good decent people contributing to society, just not in the exact way you would prefer.  And, although you hate to hear it, there are millions of other conservatives and libertarians leading good decent ordinary lives, just like you.  Kinda like gay people, you probably know and like some, but don’t know it.

Friend, that door swings both ways; I spent much of my early 20s among conservatives and right-libertarians (at the paper where I worked) and they ran the gamut from respectful to those who were convinced that “liberal” and “left-wing” were dirty words.

Comment #46: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  12:10 PM

And, you all prove my point that you can not see that others can genuinely disagree with you and still be good decent people contributing to society, just not in the exact way you would prefer.

Thinking of yourself as an aristocrat who can choose who lives and who dies based on the charity money you choose to give doesn’t make you a good person, even if it makes you happy.

Comment #47: Mnemosyne  on  08/21  at  12:11 PM

There are some libertarians out there who are honestly interested in liberty and freedom - and as they get older IME they tend to drift towards liberalism because it becomes pretty damn obvious that corporate coercive power is in many ways worse than State power, and that regulation of corporations by State actors may not be nearly as evil as they previously believed.

Well, that and learning about both transaction costs and externalities did it for me in my early twenties.  I think externalities are the biggie.  If you can get a libertarian to understand the concept, it tends to cure the libertarianism.

I associate capital-L Libertarians with high school debate club nerds

Watch it there, son.  Many of those high school debate club nerds will grow up to become very effective Legal Aid lawyers.

Comment #48: Richard Goblin  on  08/21  at  12:11 PM

Has anyone ever met a Libertarian with a job? The only ones I’ve ever known all stayed in school for years and years longer than the rest of us and sponged off mommy and daddy. Is a Libertarian with a job like a Spotted Owl or something?

Comment #49: DC Fem  on  08/21  at  12:11 PM

“And, although you hate to hear it, there are millions of other conservatives and libertarians leading good decent ordinary lives, just like you”

Nope, they are not good people.  I know the kind, I spent 12 years at a catholic school.  You and these other “good, decent, ordinary” conservatives are really selfish ingrates who will deny help to people while throwing pennies at those you feel “deserve” help. You have no empathy.  Whenever you do something that you would normally wag your finger at, like have an affair or an abortion, you convienantly come up with some excuse why your case is different, while denying everyone else.

You are not a good person, the sooner you can understand that, the sooner we can get on with this discussion.

Comment #50: kitten parade  on  08/21  at  12:15 PM

Taxes are a cost of living in a society in which our lives are generally less nasty, brutish, and short than they would be otherwise.  Again, *shrug*.

Exactly.  We should change the name from ‘tax’ to ‘civilization membership fee’.  Because most if not all of these libertarians need to remember that membership does indeed have its privileges, but you have to pay the fees.

Comment #51: Richard Goblin  on  08/21  at  12:15 PM

Libertarians talk a lot about freedom and liberty, but they will always vote for the party of more wars, harsher police powers, warrantless wiretaps, indefinite detention, government-sponsored gay-bashing, and increased government secrecy in exchange for lower taxes.

Comment #52: themann1086  on  08/21  at  12:15 PM

No, DC Fem, I know quite a few—a tenured science prof, in fact, is one of them.

Comment #53: Ranylt  on  08/21  at  12:17 PM

My stepfather has a colleague who has a son with Down’s syndrome.  This child’s case is especially severe, and he will require extensive lifelong care.  The colleague and his wife have already reached their maximum lifetime benefit under their health insurance plan and are now “uninsurable.” They face the very real spectre of bankruptcy.

Anecdote, yes, but I think a very powerful one.

Well, maybe if they beg hard enough, they can get Libertarian to hold a bakesale for their child, becuase was all know that libertarians are just full of selfless love and charity, right?

And, you all prove my point that you can not see that others can genuinely disagree with you and still be good decent people contributing to society,

People who use public resources but don’t want to pay taxes are neither good nor decent.  This isn’t simply a disagreement.  Giving a few bucks here and there just doesn’t make up for not paying taxes.  I do probably twice as much charity as you do and I still pay my taxes without whining and crying about it.  Honestly, putting on a show of charity doesn’t make you a contributing member of society.

Comment #54: bananacat  on  08/21  at  12:20 PM

Watch it there, son.  Many of those high school debate club nerds will grow up to become very effective Legal Aid lawyers.

The key phrase being “grow up”—as you note, most of these Libertarians haven’t really grown up and learned the facts of life (mainly that large corporations are just as capable as governments when it comes to excercising tyranny).

And to be clear, I’m talking about nerds (as opposed to geeks)—bitter NiceGuy® types who resent that the world won’t acknowledge their wonderfulness. Understandable in a high school student, pathetic in a guy like Libertarian.

Comment #55: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  12:20 PM

No, DC Fem, I know quite a few—a tenured science prof, in fact, is one of them.

Someone who has a public university or government grant programme on his CV, no doubt.

Comment #56: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  12:22 PM

Libertarian:

In which August converts his “Give me more of Libetarian’s money theme” to “Give lots of people more of Libertarian’s money.”

In which Libertarian once again makes the claim that literally every single thing that happens in the entire universe, no matter how little it has to do with him, is really all about him.

I sure can’t help but notice how no one else around here brags about their charity work at every single fucking opportunity, though. It’s almost as if the only reason you do any of it is so you can pat yourself on the back about it.

No, it’s a difference in philosophy and politics. The difference is that I can recognize that those that disagree with me may be well intentioned but misguided, whereas you subscribe to the Obama/Alinsky methods of demonizing those you disagree with and assuming they’re all “evil.”

Tens of thousands of people a year die because of your “philosophy and politics” in this country alone, and you look at that and say, “yep, working as intended.” Frankly, you might as well be slitting their throats yourself.

Also, “you’re just mad because I disagree with you” is what people with no argument say in an attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that they have no argument.

And, you all prove my point that you can not see that others can genuinely disagree with you and still be good decent people contributing to society, just not in the exact way you would prefer.

I would definitely like to hear you explain how letting tens of thousands of people die every year for nothing more than petty ideological reasons makes you a “good decent person,” regardless of what else you do in your life, or qualifies as “contributing to society” in any meaningful sense.

But most Americans would be looking for a real debate.

What the fuck are you talking about? Why would Americans suddenly start looking for a real debate now, after never having wanted one before in the entire history of the country?

The eternal irony is that the absolute last thing you and your ilk want is a real debate, because you know perfectly well that you’d lose that debate in America just as quickly and just as absolutely as you’ve lost it in every other first-world country, and just as quickly and absolutely as you’ve lost every other debate you’ve ever tried to make in the entirety of recorded human history.

Comment #57: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/21  at  12:29 PM

I have to say that I’m not comfortable with making judgments of someone as good or bad based on political ideology, with maybe the exception of a few very extreme ideologies.  But I don’t think anyone posting here actually meets that criterion.

Trust me, I understand where the frustration comes from.  I’m also acting out of a bit of self-interest here, admittedly:  I was a conservative in my early to mid 20s, and I like to think that I was bad, but mistaken.

Comment #58: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  12:36 PM

Er, make that, “I like to think that I wasn’t bad…”

Comment #59: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  12:37 PM

Which was that the constant theme here is - why is it taking so long for Obama to take more money from others and give it to those Pandagon favors?

Because idiots like you are getting in the way and making things more INEFFICIENT.

I think we call you selfish because you don’t realize that your way, in the end, costs more money and reaches fewer people. Why is that a virtue?

Charities aren’t the answer you think. Talk to their fundraisers; you’ll learn a) a lot of funding comes from governmental sources, b) they know that replacing that funding is hard and labor intensive, if it’s even possible c) they’ll laugh in your face if you suggest that they can replace government assistance (if they don’t through you out of the room for wasting their time).

Comment #60: gwangung  on  08/21  at  12:38 PM

In which August converts his “Give me more of Libetarian’s money theme” to “Give lots of people more of Libertarian’s money.”

Sigh, let me try to explain this is as simply as possible.  This is not a zero-sum game.  Helping others helps you too, both directly and indirectly.  Sick or dead people aren’t usually good consumers.  Uneducated people tend to have lower-paying jobs, so they’re also not good consumers.  That threatens your job security.  Any money that you put into society will help everyone, including you.  If you don’t care about the tangible, direct benefits of living in a society, such as roads, schools, and police protection, I’m not very hopeful that you will understand this subtle benefit either.  Since you enjoy benefiting from the products of other people’s taxes but you don’t want to pay those taxes yourself, there are only two possible conclusions: either you are naive and unaware of how much you benefit, or you’re a selfish leech.  If Libertarians stopped driving on public roads, stopped going to public parks, and stopped sending their kids to public schools, then maybe people would take them more seriously.

Comment #61: bananacat  on  08/21  at  12:38 PM

Honestly, putting on a show of charity doesn’t make you a contributing member of society.

Might make you a Pharisee, though.

Comment #62: gwangung  on  08/21  at  12:40 PM

I’ve just came across a quote from Paulo Freire that I think is very relevant to this discussion (never heard about him before, quite an eye opener):

“Any attempt to “soften” the power of the oppressor in deference to the weakness of the oppressed almost always manifests itself in the form of false generosity; indeed, the attempt never goes beyond this. In order to have the continued opportunity to express their “generosity,” the oppressors must perpetuate injustice as well. An unjust social order is the permanent fount of this “generosity” which is nourished by death, despair, and poverty. That is why the dispensers of false generosity become desperate at the slightest threat to its source.

True generosity consists precisely in fighting to destroy the causes which nourish false charity. False charity constrains the fearful and subdued, the “rejects of life” to extend their trembling hands. True generosity lies in striving so that these hands — whether of individuals or entire peoples — need be extended less and less in supplication, so that more and more they become human hands which work and, working, transform the world….

I’ve never heard a better explanation for the libertarian whining that paying taxes prevents them from exercising personal charity, or that personal charity is better than government programs. That’s it in a nutshell.

Hat tip http://bellatrys.livejournal.com/422539.html (Sorry, I couldn’t figure out how to make a hyperlink here.)

Comment #63: Majoranka  on  08/21  at  12:47 PM

The only Libertarians I’ve ever known who could actually afford to be Libertarians were Penn & Teller.

Comment #64: UncleMike  on  08/21  at  12:53 PM

Great find Majoranka! Very perceptive.

Comment #65: Dunc  on  08/21  at  12:54 PM

Instead we have this dishonest debate about a “public option” and maybe a “co-op” etc, which we all know are just incremental steps to the one payer system Dr. O has said he wants.

We all know? I did not know. I’m extremely disappointed in these compromises. Would you please detail the other incremental steps? How, precisely, does a public option turn into single payer? If you can convince me, then maybe I can be more enthusiastic about this.

And while Barack Obama does have a doctoral degree, you don’t actually have to call him “Doctor.” I know you were just trying to be respectful, though.

Comment #66: asdf  on  08/21  at  12:54 PM

Does it go like this?

1. Declare that a single payer system is not an option for consideration.
2. Ban single payer advocates from talks with legislators.
3. Suggest a public option as a compromise.
4. Suggest a co-op as a compromise of that compromise.
5. Ask nicely for the insurance companies to “bend the cost curve” as a compromise of a compromise of a compromise.
6. ?????
7. NO MORE PROFIT!!!!!

Comment #67: asdf  on  08/21  at  01:01 PM

Yeah, it’s funny that Libertarian is far, far more trusting that Obama means what he says than anyone here, and probably more than any other politician he’s listened to.

Comment #68: Auguste  on  08/21  at  01:07 PM

Auguste, I don’t think it’s funny at all!  It’s perfectly predictable—they all trusted what Bush SAID even when it went against what he DID, now they are trusting what Obama says/said once 10 years ago, even though he’s not really coming through. 

It’s the utter trust in what authority tells you all the while railing against the authority.  Wait, did someone mention teenagers?

Comment #69: Siobhan  on  08/21  at  01:15 PM

All of which does not change my initial point.  Which was that the constant theme here is - why is it taking so long for Obama to take more money from others and give it to those Pandagon favors?

Why were we called traitors when we complained about Cheney taking our money (borrowing it) and giving it all to Halliburton and its subsidiaries?

Government is essential for a civilized society.  Police, fire, and MEDICINE run better when socialized.  Even the postal service is a hell of a bargain.  NO PRIVATE DELIVERY SERVICE does what they do for less than 50 cents.  In fact USPS picks up where UPS and FedEx drop off, literally—when they fail to deliver to rural locations.

Again, if you really hate your fellow Americans so much and don’t want to “socialize” any costs, Somalia’s waiting for you.  No gov’t and you can hire your own security/fire/doctors without supporting anyone else.

Of course, we won’t be supporting you either, which is the crucial piece you always leave out and is what tends to piss the rest of us off so much.  It’s not merely a difference of opinion.  You are not giving money to Obama to give to Auguste, and making that facile statement makes those of us who have had to deal with private insurance company rationing want to punch you in the face.

I wouldn’t do it, b/c I’m all peaceful and loving and liberal.  I am, on the other hand, paying Aetna and Delta Dental money so that they can take it, and, maybe, if I fight them hard enough, pay a portion of it toward our annual physicals.  After they’ve skimmed their “profit” off the top, of course.  That wealth transfer, since it only benefits soulless motherfuckers and provides no real service, is perfectly hokey dokey.

Comment #70: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/21  at  01:17 PM

Well, Linnaeus, your friends’ problem is they didn’t name their miracle baby “Trig Palin”.

Comment #71: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/21  at  01:19 PM

We all know? I did not know. I’m extremely disappointed in these compromises. Would you please detail the other incremental steps? How, precisely, does a public option turn into single payer? If you can convince me, then maybe I can be more enthusiastic about this.

The “logic” behind Libertarian and his cohorts logic is that by introducing a public option into the system:

1) it will force private insurance to lower their prices;
2) which in turn will lower their profits;
3) which in turn will drive them out of business.

It is true that those things could happen through steps 1) and 2), but step 3) depends entirely on just how fucking greedy any particular insurance company thinks it needs to be.

Yes, a public option would likely mean that private insurance companies would not continue to be as obscenely profitable as they currently are, but whether or not a CEO or BoD decides that is justification to close up shop is entirely on them… do they have to go out of business, or could they perhaps consider maybe not gorging themselves like greedy pigs at the trough when it comes time to divide up the dough?  Could the CEO of Aetna maybe settle for a $2.4 Million annual compensation package instead of the $24 Million he made in 2008?

Of course they could.  The private insurers would be less profitable, and staying afloat would likely necessitate those at the top taking a pay cut.

Boo fucking hoo.  I’m sorry that private insurance CEOs will have to settle for paltry 7 figure incomes now instead of the 8 figure incomes they had become accustomed to.  Life must be so rough when you have to settle for only getting to upgrade your private corporate jet once a decade instead of every other year.  Why, they may even be forced to settle for only three houses instead of eight.

The horror, the horror.

Comment #72: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  01:32 PM

And, although you hate to hear it, there are millions of other conservatives and libertarians leading good decent ordinary lives, just like you.  Kinda like gay people, you probably know and like some, but don’t know it.

I know a lot of libertarians, but I wouldn’t say that I like them.

Comment #73: realityfighter  on  08/21  at  01:39 PM

Well, Linnaeus, your friends’ problem is they didn’t name their miracle baby “Trig Palin”.

Caren, my mother made a similar comparison when my stepdad told us the story.

Comment #74: Linnaeus  on  08/21  at  01:41 PM

DTG:

The “logic” behind Libertarian and his cohorts logic is that by introducing a public option into the system:

1) it will force private insurance to lower their prices;
2) which in turn will lower their profits;
3) which in turn will drive them out of business.

The problem behind this logic is that it doesn’t actually work that way in any other industry in which both public and private entities are competing for the same customer base. And let’s not ignore the fact that public and private health insurance entities wouldn’t even be competing for the same customer base in the first place, so the argument is not only demonstrably wrong, but irrelevant.

Comment #75: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/21  at  01:41 PM

Particularly the ones you and me bailed out at Goldman Sachs, Citi, AIG, etc.  That’s an outrage.

I actually agree with Libertarian on this one.

Comment #76: Siobhan  on  08/21  at  01:51 PM

and that’s without taking into account the fact that you seem to get less for your money.

No way dude!  We have way <strike>bigger cocks</strike> more bombs!

Comment #77: libdevil  on  08/21  at  01:59 PM

“Why, they may even be forced to settle for only three houses instead of eight.”

...or worse, they might actually know how many house they own, instead of having so many they just have to guess at the real figure.

Oh, the humanity!...

Comment #78: MikeEss  on  08/21  at  02:01 PM

Wait, a libertarian science professor?  I’ve met a lot who are conservative, but the idea of a libertarian one is kind of… how the fuck do you apply for funding if you don’t believe in government?  That’s the height of hypocrisy.

Comment #79: libdevil  on  08/21  at  02:11 PM

Someone who has a public university or government grant programme on his CV, no doubt.

Abso-fucking-right-on-lutely, Gracchus (he works in my husband’s research group, so I have it on authority that this is so).

Comment #80: Ranylt  on  08/21  at  02:23 PM

libdevil—Glenn Reynolds, Libertarian Pharoah, is a professor at a public law school.  Libertarians are all insane.  That’s just the way it is.

There’s a great post here that buries the lede: How To Piss Off Economists.

Firstly, it’s cute that Dr. Caldwell hasn’t discovered the difference between how free market priests are treated and how everyone else is treated.  But secondly, note the section on libertarians.  It’s true; the big thing libertarians always want is to make everyone else go away.  Sociopathy as political philosophy.

Comment #81: Punditus Maximus  on  08/21  at  02:24 PM

Libertarian—I know no nice or good people who are libertarians.  I know a few vaguely decent people who are conservatives, but I’m also aware that were I black or gay, they would no longer be decent to me.  I know, because they’ve told me so.

Comment #82: Punditus Maximus  on  08/21  at  02:25 PM

It’s certainly my experience that there are noble conservatives, just as there are venal liberals. But I have yet to meet a decent libertarian. To a man (and woman) the ones I have met have been selfish, unempathic and untrustworthy, possessed of a deeply distorted morality. I’ve met plenty who have been charming at first and yet have turned out to be people I have had to edge away from.

I’m sure decent libertarians exist. Statistically there must be some. Maybe I have been unlucky.

Comment #83: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/21  at  02:39 PM

I’m sorry that private insurance CEOs will have to settle for paltry 7 figure incomes now instead of the 8 figure incomes they had become accustomed to.

Communist!

Wait, a libertarian science professor?  I’ve met a lot who are conservative, but the idea of a libertarian one is kind of… how the fuck do you apply for funding if you don’t believe in government?  That’s the height of hypocrisy.

Sigh, but so it goes.  I suspect selective memory—he only considers the funding he gets from industry (which in photonics is, to be fair, substantial, but by no means comprehensive).  But he does go farther than the other Libertarians I know; his wife (who also got a PhD in science via gov scholarships) home-schools their five kids (though more because they’re New Calvinists than out of Libertarian principle), and they have an extensive rural lot and grow a lot of their seasonal food and raise hens.  But the effort of course ends there, in terms of “off the grid” in Canada with a job in the middle of a city’s downtown core. I don’t need to spell out all the many many other ways in which it does.

Comment #84: Ranylt  on  08/21  at  02:41 PM

I have a friend who’s libertarian.  I have LOTS of friends who are conservative.  I have most friends who are moderate, and moderately liberal, but mostly apathetic.  Do I think they are good people?  No, not really.  They are decent human beings.  They’re not out to hurt anybody, and they have enough empathy that they’ll donate time and money to help a face, a picture, a person they know.  They don’t actively seek these people out, but they’ll do it if it comes to them. 

For instance, my friend the libertarian is ADAMANTLY opposed to public transportation.  Her neighbor is hard-up right now, so she gives him a ride to and from work every day.  She doesn’t brag about this- this is just what she does.  The only reason I know about it is because she had to reschedule some stuff with me in order to able to get him.  She also spends gobs of hours donating at the local animal rescue. 

But, if I point out that if she supported public transportation, then a lot of people in her neighbor’s boat could be helped, then she goes off on how people who use that are “lazy” and the government shouldn’t engage in “social engineering”.  For someone who isn’t right there in front of her, that she doesn’t have to interact with on a daily basis, she substitutes “person like her neighbor” with “the worst stereotypes of lazy, evil, leeching people” she can think of (which, in her case, is her messed-up mother).

So, are my friends good people?  I don’t know- even after studying philosophy for awhile I can’t come up with some airtight definitions of “good” and “evil” and then the best ways to apply them to people.  I know my friends are generally decent people, and not sociopathic (which is why they can feel empathy for people, you know, right there).  But, it is almost impossible for them to think of “millions of other people who need help”.  And, that makes them a little bit complicit, if not evil.

Libertarian, I don’t know if you’re a good person, and quite frankly, it’s not my place to judge one way or another.  But, I do know that by opposing a public option, you’re allowing millions of people to suffer and thousands to die just because you don’t feel like shelling out a couple hundred more dollars a year that would, quite frankly, help you out in the long run.  So, to me, that means you care more about money than people, and I can’t think of any definition of “good” that would fall under.

Comment #85: Antigone  on  08/21  at  02:47 PM

Particularly the ones you and me bailed out at Goldman Sachs, Citi, AIG, etc.  That’s an outrage.

Ah, so not a Rotarian Socialist after all—fair enough (although most American Libertarians are). No, just your garden-variety insanely selfish and myopic extreme free market fantasist (the fantasy being that there’s any marketplace that comes close to being “free”).

Are you a good or bad person? I neither know nor care. But you’ve definitely proven yourself a fantasist and a hypocrite (since you haven’t decided to head up the Mogadishu Lion’s Club as a true Randian captain of industry would). Not someone to be taken seriously.

[and please, Libertarian, don’t pull the old “wounded dignity” card—you’re in no position to do that after your very undignified comments in the earlier thread]

The last time someone said that to me was many, many years ago when I was a liberal Democrat (oh yes I was) protesting the Vietnam War and campaigning for Eugene McCarthy (oh yes I did).

Wow, you’re Bobo Brooksie’s target audience for his columns and books: a Boomer who’s desperately trying to reconcile the altruistic progressivism of his youth (which he’ll tell you about at the drop of a hat) with the grasping selfishness of his old age.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  03:03 PM

Yeah, that’s a journey I hope to never make.  I wonder what curdles.

Comment #87: Punditus Maximus  on  08/21  at  03:16 PM

Certainly any philosophy that puts disposable income ahead of people has the taint of evil about it. It’s one of the reasons why I’m happy to be moving to Sweden in two weeks. I’ll be taxed at 51%, with sales tax at 25%, but by gum I’ll be getting some grand services out of it (healthcare, childcare, etc.) and will be living in a state with some of the least poverty in the world.

Comment #88: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood  on  08/21  at  03:19 PM

The trouble with this debate is that Libertarian seems to be under the impression we think he’s a bad person for disagreeing with us.

Personally, I think he’s a bad person for supporting policies that allow thousands to die and millions to suffer. I’m against suffering, myself. I consider people who are for it to be bad people.

I don’t care if people disagree with me, so long as they don’t support policies that lead to needless death and suffering.

Comment #89: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  08/21  at  03:33 PM

Libertarian:

I continue to maintain that, with some exceptions, but relatively few, most conservatives. libertarians, liberals, Democrats, socialists and Republicans are well intentioned but disagree. Most of you cannot stand to admit that for some reason.

And if we were trying to figure out who the best hair-metal band from the ‘80s was, that would be a meaningful consideration. But we’re not arguing over what your favorite kind of pizza is or whether you think Quentin Tarantino is overrated. We’re arguing over real people’s lives. Real people whose preventable deaths apparently don’t bother you and your ilk in the slightest, because the fact that they’re not you means that they’re either expendable, beneath consideration, or just imaginary.

Look, any slack-jawed moron can have an opinion. It takes absolutely no energy or effort at all. But out here in the real world, the simple act of having an opinion doesn’t grant you any consideration whatsoever. You’re not in kindergarten anymore. You don’t get a gold star just for trying.

You must believe that the person who disagrees with you is “bad.” Why is that?  Do you know no “nice” “good” “decent” people who are conservatives or libertarians?  I can’t believe that’s true.  I know many.  I also know many liberals I disagree with vehemently, yet we’re friends because we each recognize the other as a good person.  Many of these are the people I do charity work with.  Others I work with.  We know each other well, and accept that we have different philosophies.

Again, this is all just so much navel-gazing, self-serving bullshit. We have no objective standards upon which to judge your relative worth as a human being, and as others have said, none of us are even trying to find any. So quit threatening to go eat worms. We all know you’re not going to do it, anyway. All we have to go by are the things you say and the policies you support. Policies that demonstrably and inarguably result in tens of thousands of preventable deaths each year. Where you’re really losing the connection to defensibility, however, is in your claim that being nice to wait-staff and shop clerks during the day means that nobody gets to object if you spend your nights beating up random homeless people.

So yeah, I find it pretty fucking pathetic that you’ve been reduced to arguing that the only reason anyone takes issue with you is because we’re all just innately hateful people, rather than people who have specific systematic and factual objections to the specific things you support, as if it had literally never once in your life occurred to you that something you’ve said wasn’t the unassailable, absolute, unimpeachable truth that you thought it was.

That kind of pathological narcissism needs to be medicated, not coddled.

Comment #90: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/21  at  03:36 PM

Just call it a tax.

Watch:

“The Insurance companies are levying a tax on me for health care.”

Why are Republicans in favor of high health insurance taxes?

See how easy that is?

Comment #91: I Heart Puppies  on  08/21  at  03:45 PM

Antigone, that was lovely.  I may print it out and frame it.

Comment #92: vyreque  on  08/21  at  03:54 PM

The problem with Libertarian, and libertarians in general, is that given the choice between:

Standard Oil takes over almost all industries having to do with oil, then uses that monopoly power to put competitors out of business and increase prices and make billions of dollars .... and then Rockefeller gives out dimes to people

and

the government puts a tax on oil to pay for roads and other transportation needs.

They will choose the first because no government is involved (to be specific they might whine a bit about Standard Oil, but would not want to actually do anything that would control the situation).

The same thing applies here: a typical person will be given one or two choices for insurance where they work and the insurer they choose will restrict which doctors, hospitals, and medicines they use. That’s fine with Libertarian, but if there is a government program that restricts things at all, why that’s terrible.

As a side note, there are more private practice physicians (and so more competition among physicians) in Canada with a single-payer system than there are in the US under a ‘competitive’ insurance system.

Comment #93: JohnL  on  08/21  at  04:12 PM

Like I’m not already working until August to pay taxes (money the gov’t mostly just gives to other people), insurance etc.

If nobody else called bullshit on that figure, I would like to.  Bullshit.  Demonstrate this please, unless, as I suspect, it just isn’t true.

Comment #94: Eileen  on  08/21  at  04:22 PM

Majoranka: Thank you for explaining why “Christian charity” has always made me want to throw up. That was perfect!

Comment #95: Entomologista  on  08/21  at  04:24 PM

This thread is surprisingly full of Win, given that it’s in response to a Libertarian.  Yay, Pandagonians for turning the ultimate sow’s ear into a gen-yoo-wine silk purse.

Comment #96: Punditus Maximus  on  08/21  at  04:30 PM

I know no nice or good people who are libertarians.

I know a few.  Of course they tend to be really strong on freedoms, stopping the government from infringing on civil liberties, pro-gay, pro-choice, atheist, and sex positive.  Then again, they all live in Texas where they fear state and municipal governments controlled by fundamentalist christian wackaloons imposing their unique version of “Biblical law” on everyone else.  (In all fairness, this was my attraction in my teenage years to libertarianism.)  If theocracy is what you think of when you think of “big government” then libertarianism becomes much more sympathetic.

Nonetheless, my libertarian friends have a disturbingly intellectually fuzzy conception libertarian economics.  (When I confronted my own intellectual fuzziness in this matter, my politics took a hard left turn (pun intended).)

My own feelings on the matter are markets, regulations, government, etc are tools to be used to achieve an end.  It’s hard to get ideological about using a hammer instead of a screwdriver.  Yet this is exactly what libertarians are doing isn’t it?  Saying that a free market and competition will solve every problem is like saying that the only tool you need is a hammer.  It may work out for awhile, but eventually you will run across a screw, and then you’ll need to bring some more tools to the job.

Comment #97: Richard Goblin  on  08/21  at  04:31 PM

As a side note, there are more private practice physicians (and so more competition among physicians) in Canada with a single-payer system than there are in the US under a ‘competitive’ insurance system

Another “odd” thing about Canada: apparently, in that evil socialised medicine system, many safe meds for which you’d normally need a prescription (and a doctor’s visit, and co-pay, and time/energy) in the U.S. are available over the counter at Canadian pharmacies. My friend was telling me about this in terms of an eye ointment he needed, and I’ve also heard of this in regard to Tylenol with coedine.

See, in commie Canada, they trust their citizens to make informed and rational choices about meds like that, and thereby cut down on unnecessary doctor’s visits because they’re highly motivated to reduce waste in their single-payer public system.

Back here in the liberty-lovin’ U.S., citizens are treated like irresponsible children when it comes to these meds, with the side “benefit” of producing waste in the system that brings a whole lot of nickels and dimes in profit into the pockets of the only individuals that are considered worthy of respect—corporate individuals.

Just another fun fact to bring up with our domestic champions of Libertarianism.

Comment #98: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  04:37 PM

I continue to maintain that, with some exceptions, but relatively few, most conservatives. libertarians, liberals, Democrats, socialists and Republicans are well intentioned but disagree.

You bring up an interesting philosophical question:  at what point does supporting evil turn you into an evil person?  Can you, in fact, support evil actions (like letting your fellow citizens die because they don’t have enough money to pay for medical care) and still be a good person?  Given the actions of my country over the prior 8 years, I would probably have to say that, no, I’m not a good person, because I continued to live in (and pay taxes to) a country that invaded a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of pretexts, and when even those excuses turned out to be false, our government shrugged and said, “Hey, finders keepers.”  My tax money went to detain people indefinitely without trial.  I paid so the government could spy on me and my fellow citizens without a warrant.

So, can you support evil and still be a good person?  That’s a question you’re going to have to ask yourself, but I doubt you have the self-insight to do it.

Twelve-year-old Deamonte Driver died because his mother couldn’t afford to pay $80 for a tooth extraction.  Congratulations—with your refusal to participate in a civil society by not paying your share, you helped kill a child whose care probably would have personally cost you 1/1000th of a cent once all of our money was bundled together.  But you can’t part with that 1/1000th of a cent unless you can meet each person face-to-face to make sure they know that they have to be personally grateful to you, the generous person who’s preventing them from dying from an abscessed tooth.

Comment #99: Mnemosyne  on  08/21  at  05:05 PM

I’ve got to ask, Libertarian: aren’t you ashamed of your initial comment?  Making fun of people for being impoverished by injuries?  Accusing them of “whining and crying” when they stand up for their right not to die in a gutter?  That’s sociopathic.  Doesn’t it make you blush?

That’s why I think you’re a bad person.  Not because you follow a cruel and morally bankrupt political philosophy; as you say, that could be chalked up to ignorance.  No, I think you’re a bad person because you know your political philosophy is cruel and you gleefully mock the people who suffer from it.  Auguste gets into a bad situation, and he immediately thinks of all the other people in similar situations and works on ways to help them all.  That’s the attitude of a stand-up guy.  Your response is to laugh at them and make sarcastic little bloo-bloo noises.  That’s the attitude of a jerk.

And no, I don’t particularly care that you’re in the Rotarians.

Comment #100: Shaenon  on  08/21  at  05:07 PM

I’m not at all convinced that Libertarian is full of good intentions, but even so, the road to serfdom is paved with him.

Comment #101: asdf  on  08/21  at  05:16 PM

Them. Paved with them.

But I may have found a good use for libertarians after all.

Comment #102: asdf  on  08/21  at  05:17 PM

Not to mention, the Driver case is a perfect illustration of what we lefties keep screaming about:  because we (as a country) were too cheap to pay $80 to get his abscessed tooth extracted, we instead ended up paying $250,000 in a futile attempt to save his life once the bacteria got to his brain.  This is what Dr. Emanuel is talking about when he says that his studies show that our savings just from getting timely care may mean we won’t have to ration care.  When you don’t have kids in the ICU because they were able to get the care they needed in time, that saves us all a crapload of money.

Tell me, Libertarian, fount of economic wisdom:  which amount is smaller, $80 or $250,000?  You can take your time.  Yes, yes, I know your position is that we shouldn’t even pay the $80 because poor people deserve to have their children die of preventable causes, but let’s look at the world as it is, not as you want it to be.  In this world, when poor people have to have massive medical intervention, the taxpayers end up picking up the tab because, short of debtor’s prison, you’re not going to get $250,000 out of someone working a minimum wage job.

By trying to save $80 of taxpayer money, we instead ended up paying $250,000.  Does that seem efficient to you?

Comment #103: Mnemosyne  on  08/21  at  05:21 PM

“Tell me, Libertarian, fount of economic wisdom:  which amount is smaller, $80 or $250,000?”

I don’t know how “our” Libertarian would respond to that challenge (and I will grant that he doesn’t seem to be intentionally evil), but it seems all too obvious how too many libertarian-Americans would respond: 
A single bullet costs much less than $80, let alone $250,000…

Now, to be fair, very few of them would phrase it that straightforwardly.  The rawness of it, the callousness of it, the brazenness and bluntness of it, the evil and inhumanity of it are all too much to just throw right out there unadorned and unapologetically.  But no matter how they would try to phrase it, it would amount to the same thing. 

And “libertarians” would not be alone in thinking this.  Too many Americans, many/most of them “christians”, raised in a culture where wealth and acquisition are the ultimate expressions of patriotism, would be right there in agreement with the callous libertarians.  “We got ours, screw everyone else!”

Health Reform is not just something we desperately need.  It it also a test of our society.  And so far, we’re getting an ‘F’...

Comment #104: MikeEss  on  08/21  at  05:47 PM

Since we all seem to be getting a little depressed about our fellow Americans, this story related by Fred Clark about true charity has stuck with me.  Read it all the way to the end, or you don’t get to the cake.

Comment #105: Mnemosyne  on  08/21  at  06:01 PM

There’s little difference in between the government saving a life and a private charity saving a life.  It’s still a life saved.

But if Libertarian just pays his taxes, he doesn’t get to preen and boast about how he helped someone.

And possibly equally as important, he doesn’t get to pick and choose who he helps. White dudes? Hardworking and deserving, yo! Whiny bitchez, or those lazy layabout darkies? They can fuck off.

Comment #106: kristin  on  08/21  at  06:01 PM

asdf - but, you must admit, a road paved with Libertarians would be a Big Government Project which infringes upon the rights of said Libertarians and therefore they would rightfully complain at the tyranny of the Government constructing a public road.  Instead, a private company should undertake the construction of a Libertarian-paved road for its own enlightened self-interest and should be granted all of the rights and profits thereof.  Certainly then the Libertarians being used would support said Libertarian-paved thoroughfare.

Comment #107: tannenburg  on  08/21  at  06:53 PM

Libertarians probably think we should sell our organs. They would never sell theirs—in any case, even if I needed a kidney, I wouldn’t want to take one that had been in a libertarian’s body.

Comment #108: sara  on  08/21  at  07:03 PM

I normally try to avoid toll roads, but I’d make a road trip just to drive that one.

I’ll bet it’d get awfully sticky in the summer.

Comment #109: asdf  on  08/21  at  07:08 PM

I don’t know, sara, liberating a kidney from a Libertarian and giving it a good home in a freedom-loving, empathetic, tax-paying American seems like a good thing.

Comment #110: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/21  at  07:32 PM

I think I nearly died of laughter reading Libertarian’s proposal that charity is a realistic solution to people who cannot afford healthcare.  I work for a nonprofit corporation and we provide a free service, in addition to raising money for other charitable organizations. Funny, we can’t even raise enough money from our members (who are paying nothing for the service) to cover operational costs and instead have to raise this money through third parties or by selling sponsorships to businesses—and that still doesn’t allow us to pay a single member of our staff.  When we raised money for March of Dimes, I asked friends and family members to donate $1 and still only had a handful of people make a donation.  Charity is the most ineffective and inefficient method to provide necessary services to those who cannot afford to provide for themselves under the current structure.  The $20000 we raised for March of Dimes is barely a drop in the bucket when one considers how much it costs to care for ONE micro-preemie in a NICU.

What charities are GOOD at is raising awareness of various issues in hopes that they can get the government to help provide for the people the charity was set up to benefit. 

Anybody who needs to sit in judgment of the “deserving” versus the “undeserving” fill-in-the-blank is an asshole who merely wants to see people beg and confess they are of less worth and lack the moral character of the giver.

Comment #111: history_mom  on  08/21  at  08:38 PM

Given the actions of my country over the prior 8 years, I would probably have to say that, no, I’m not a good person, because I continued to live in (and pay taxes to) a country that invaded a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of pretexts, and when even those excuses turned out to be false, our government shrugged and said, “Hey, finders keepers.” My tax money went to detain people indefinitely without trial.  I paid so the government could spy on me and my fellow citizens without a warrant.

I don’t really see how that could disqualify you, or anybody else, from being a “good person”.

On the first point, “continuing to live in the country” isn’t something that the vast majority of Americans have much of a choice about.  Most people don’t don’t have the economic means to just pack up and leave.

On the second point, “paying your taxes”, I suppose I could see slightly more rationality, though for many the choice not to do so isn’t really much of an option either, as refusal to do so could get you thrown in jail.  If someone has a family and they are a core source of income for their family, they would be doing seriously grievous harm to their dependent family members by getting themselves thrown in jail for tax evasion, thus preventing them from being to earn an income.

No, I don’t believe that because I continued to live here and pay taxes while my country used my tax money to fund immoral military conflict automatically makes me a bad person, because I didn’t have the resources to get out, and I have other people who would suffer if I could not earn an income.

Comment #112: DTG in STL  on  08/21  at  09:09 PM

Most people don’t don’t have the economic means to just pack up and leave.

Except for Randian supermen like Libertarian, who bends those perfectly free markets to his will to the point where he can distribute largesse from his vast fortune like some male version of Lady Bountiful. Just think what a $250-thousand-aire like him could do in Haiti!

Comment #113: Gracchus.  on  08/21  at  09:38 PM

One of my friends is pretty much a libertarian. Voted for Ron Paul, attended Ron Paul events, the whole thing. Like many libertarians he is, of course, and engineer at a government contracting firm. I doubt he cares about the inherent contradictions involved, and, truth be told, he is a decent person. The thing is that being a libertarian, for him, isn’t really something to be taken seriously, in the same way that it isn’t taken seriously by most libertarians. Rather, it’s an identity adopted because the alternatives aren’t perceived as being very attractive. No one really wants to go without roads or really thinks millions should suffer the problems associated with lack of health coverage. It’s just more attractive to cloak yourself in a garment that declares yourself to be “above it all” by claiming to be a libertarian. It’s easier to adopt a casual political identity to insulate you from the consequences of your beliefs when you don’t follow up on them and know that the country will never suffer the consequences of your beliefs being enacted.

The problem, of course, is when they go beyond that and into the level of sneering at the suffering of others. Then they become amoral assholes like Libertarian here. Seriously, Libertarian, you’re inviting people to have a beer with you, but why would anyone go out drinking with an asshole like yourself who hears stories of health care issues and responds with, “You guys ever stop whining and crying?  Ewww.  Every time Auguste posts you can see the tears flowing.  ” ? You sound like a major league dickhead that I’d never cultivate any kind of personal relationship with.

There are plenty of libertarians at peace with the bullshit of their beliefs and perfectly content to sneer in peace and too cowardly and lazy to get off their asses and do something useful to the political/social environment in the country. But don’t wear it as a mark of pride and act like an ass to others who are having trouble making it in this world.

Comment #114: Tyro  on  08/21  at  10:08 PM

Okay, I’m almost done piling on Libertarian, but one more thing: it’s disingenuous to start a debate with playground insults, then demand that the people you insulted engage you in thoughtful discussion.  It’s like some of the concern-trolling I’ve seen over Barney Frank’s takedown of the LaRouche girl, people saying, “If he didn’t answer her respectfully, he’s just sinking to her level.”  The thing is, there is no respectful and reasonable answer to someone calling you a Nazi.  At that point the “debate” is too childish to engage.

By the same token, there’s no respectful and reasonable answer to someone who mocks you for having serious health and financial problems.  All you can do is laugh at that person and move on to someone who wants to have a real conversation.

Comment #115: Shaenon  on  08/21  at  11:33 PM

Tyro:

But don’t wear it as a mark of pride and act like an ass to others who are having trouble making it in this world.

What? Sneering at people who weren’t born with a silver spoon stuck up their ass is like 95% of the appeal of big-L libertarianism.

Comment #116: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/22  at  10:31 AM

Tyro:

One quibble with word choice. It’s not really “amoral” assholes who sneer at the sufferings of others. The truly amoral couldn’t care less about the sufferings of others; it takes someone immoral to go past that into getting off on those sufferings enough to sneer.

Comment #117: paul  on  08/22  at  09:53 PM

I do resent this a bit “people who are not as perniciously selfish as Libertarian.” Well, I’m not.  In addition to giving the gov’t lots of my money to give to other people like A (who enjoy having the gov’t steal it from me), I do lots of volunteer work.  I give many hours and dollars fot health related volunteer activities, which I’ve mentioned here before.  My Rotary club has sponsored, and my family has hosted, two Gift of Lift children.  Yes, we brought two (brown - no diff to me, kids are kids, but I know you guys give extra points for brown people) children from the Philipiness here for heart operations to save their lives.  One lived and is doing great, the other didn’t (a truly heart wrenching and depressing event - my whole family was devastated for months).  Then my Lions Club gives half its fundraising to people with visual handicaps and the blind.  We also hold special fundraisers for local families who have suffered medical disasters - for example, we repeatedly gave money to family with a young child with leukemia.  That’s just a taste.  But I don’t have anything to feel guilty about.  I put my money where my mouth is.

I love when retards like Libertarian trot out the ‘personal charity’ canard. The only reason anyone goes on and on about their personal charity and then pisses their britches about having to pay their taxes is if they think the point of charity is getting to stroke their ego, and not, y’know, actually fucking helping people.

Comment #118: Dan  on  08/23  at  10:39 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.