This is a good rejoinder to the Ayers bullshit: if McCain is really so worried about Ayers, then why hasn’t McCain repudiated G. Gordon Liddy?

Excuse me…

Why hasn’t anyone discussed the fact that Sarah Palin sleeps with a traitor?

I’m not kidding.  Todd Palin was and active member of the Alaska Independence Party - a movement that expressed it’s contempt for America, and advocated the secession of Alaska from the union.
Tod Palin was still a member of AIP when Sarah Palin originally ran for Leutenant Governor.

A friend sent me this.  It sort of made my eyes roll back in my skull:

Todd Palin’s Party and the Violent Overthrow;

The AIP’s fondest wish has always been secession (independence), but they have in recent years moderated their positions somewhat.  They want Alaskans to vote on whether to leave the Union outright, to become a “commonwealth” (like Puerto Rico), or to resume territorial status.  I don’t think either of the latter options are legal or constitutional.  But even if they are, the inclusion of secession—independence—in the provision that they seek to put before the Alaska voters is, well, it is TREASON.

Perhaps it is not actionable treason.  Actionable treason would only come IF the state actually tried to declare independence, which it will never do.  But the point is, NO STATE CAN VOTE ON WHETHER TO LEAVE THE UNION.  NO STATE HAS THAT RIGHT.

So when Sarah Palin calls the AIP “inspirational” and tells its members “God bless you and keep up the good work,” she is flirting with treason.  Does she know that?  I doubt it.  She’s not educated enough to be aware of the issue.  And I’m afraid that neither are most Americans.  I’m afraid that few of us really know our country’s history and Constitution.

My point is this:  unless Palin absolutely, unconditionally says that a state has no right to secede, even if a majority of its citizens want secession, she CANNOT in good conscience take the oath of office.  The oath requires her to swear on a BIBLE, no less, to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  Secessionists are in essense domestic enemies, and I strongly suspect (am 99% sure) that some of them have ties to militias that, at one time if not now, wanted to bring down the U.S. governemtn.  I’m not saying that Palin has such ties, but certainly others in the AIP do.

Remember, the founder of the AIP, Joe Voglin, said he had “no use for America or her damned institutions,” and vowed not to be buried on U.S. soil.  He was murdered while purchasing plastic explosives.  Sorta like a drug deal gone bad, but in this case a plastic explosives deal gone bad.  He was a miner, so perhaps he wanted to use the explosives for mining, but what are the odds that he had in mind some other use for those explosives?  I don’t know, but I hope our press can find out.

Nor can Sarah Palin say the Pledge of Allegiance in good conscience.  If she even believes that Alaska HAS THE RIGHT to declare independence, even if she herself doesn’t want Alaska to do that, she cannot take the Pledge.  The Pledge commits us to “ONE nation, under God, INDIVISIBLE.”  Those words were added precisely to head off any thought of secession.

Sarah Palin has supported the idea of letting Alaskans vote on whether to declare independence.  That alone makes her a liar when she says the pledge.  She CANNOT say the words “ONE nation” and “INDIVISIBLE” without lying.  THERE IS NO RIGHT TO SECESSION.  THE UNITED STATES IS INDIVISIBLE.  IT IS ONE NATION.  Okay, I grant you, she simply hasn’t thought about the meaning of those words.  Most of us haven’t.  That’s what a pledge becomes ... just words, meaningless words, that we ritually incant.  But if she did think about the meaning, she’d realize that she is lying UNLESS she utterly and wholely repudiates the idea that a state has the right to leave the union.

Klein points out something that boggled my mind when I heard it - it’s one thing to go negative 24x7, it’s another to go negative 24x7 and tell everyone that the reason you’re going negative 24x7 is because you will lose if you discuss the issues.

Wow, it’s 21 versions of, “Mr. Obama, do you still beat your wife?”

God knows Obama can’t afford to lose the votes of Victor David Hanson and Peter Krikorian and their tens of readers, all of whom were totally going to vote for him before these pressing questions surfaced and are totally not looking for fig leaves to hide the complete and utter failure of their political philosophy and/or their straight-up racism.

Jesse,

Barry has been less than truthful about his work with Ayers, and unlike McCain has never admitted being involved with him was/is a mistake.  McCain was deeply embarrassed about the Keating situation and apologized.  He also has tried to be more careful about who he tries to help.

Barry has been less than truthful about his work with Ayers, and unlike McCain has never admitted being involved with him was/is a mistake.

Really? Care to provide some evidence of that?

Doesn’t McCain’s proximity to an admitted drug addict/felon make McCain a drug addict/felon?

I’ve seen actual footage of them IN THE SAME ROOM!

I was just in a committee meeting where people were joking about a piece of research that we funded that had one of the Chicago 7 as a PI,

Is this “national study section week” or something? I know a bunch of other scientists doing the same thing. I don’t know if the Chicago 7 came up, though.

Barry has been less than truthful about his work with Ayers,

Liar.

But….how about the OTHER people on the committee with Ayers and Obama? The Presbyterian seminary president? The Orrin Hatch supporter? Aren’t you going to look at them, too?

Hey, Tom?  I’m involved with Bill Ayers.  We’re on a first-name basis.  He was one of my professors.  He was a graduate advisor.  He was invited to my wedding.  “Ayers” is the first entry in my contacts list in my phone.

Bill Ayers is a better person than you could ever DREAM of being, and the closer he and Obama are the better off the country will be.

Barry has been less than truthful about his work with Ayers, and unlike McCain has never admitted being involved with him was/is a mistake.

Sorry, I guess I missed where McCain admitted that being involved and friends with convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy was/is a mistake.  Can you please forward us the link where McCain said that?  Or is it fine for McCain to be friends with a convicted felon who tried to interfere with an election, but it’s horrible for Obama to be friends with someone who was never convicted of a thing and managed to kill exactly zero people in his “terrorist” days?

tomonthebay has already fled. He threw out his useless talking point, so now he can get his keychain. If he comes back at all, he sure won’t say anything else—no need to draw attention to how beat his chatter is…

Note well:  if you read the Wikipedia entry for Ayers with a careful and critical brain, you will find that, in fact, Ayers *is* repentant about the violence he was involved in.  What he’s not repentant about is his opposition to the Vietnam War. 

Turns out nearly every reporter appears to have missed what seems to be an elementary distinction.  In his interviews he appears to have said that he did not regret his activities against the war, and the coterie that prosecuted it…but he did regret the violence of the Weather Underground.

If I have this wrong, someone quote me the exact place where Ayers says he still believes in violent action. 

As usual, the Right has this shit completely wrong.

tomonthebay has already fled. He threw out his useless talking point, so now he can get his keychain.

Similar to my encounter with “tommy shanks” here yesterday, over the same topic.

Although I know I should try harder to take wingnuttery seriously, I find it hard to do anything but smile whenever the Ayers thing comes up.  It so clearly drives Republicans nuts that they’re up against a candidate they can’t use to rehash the Sixties.  Ayers is catnip to certain older right-wing muckrakers because he invokes the specters of a) Sixties radicalism and b) shady Chicago politics, two classic Republican bugaboos, so you can see how it’s impossible for them to shut up about him even though he has zilch to do with Barack Obama.

MBL.
Next time you see your buddy, Ayers, ask him about “that moment in the townhouse” that killed his girlfriend and 2 others as they were assembling nail bombs that he designed meant to be detonated at a dance for U.S. soldiers.  I’m sure he is a really terrific guy, just misunderstood.

Next time you see your buddy, Ayers, ask him about “that moment in the townhouse” that killed his girlfriend and 2 others as they were assembling nail bombs that he designed meant to be detonated at a dance for U.S. soldiers.  I’m sure he is a really terrific guy, just misunderstood.

Glad you could rejoin us, tom.  Do you have an answer about McCain’s good friend, convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy, yet, or is he a really terrific guy who’s just misunderstood?

And do you have an answer, tom, for the OTHER people that served with Ayers?

Or are you still serving the LIE that Obama was the only person who served with Ayers?

Tom the troll still has yet to offer any evidence that Obama is “less than truthful” about any supposed “relationship” with Ayers.

Got anything Tommy-boy?

[*crickets*]

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Just checking.

The Republicans are getting a bit frustrated that they can’t easily campaign against Obama by “running against the 60s.” If Obama is such a bad guy, I’m sure you can find something sketchy that he did in the 80s or 90s, rather than trying to point out what people he has met did in the 60s.

He wasn’t there.  If he had been, he’d be dead.  Is that really the best you’ve got?  He didn’t build a bomb that didn’t kill anybody except for the people building it?  And other than that one bomb that he didn’t build that didn’t kill anybody, he wasn’t involved in a single act of violence against other human beings ever? 

That’s what you’ve got?  Fuck you.  You’re not fit to wash the man’s underwear.

tom is like the other dimbulbs who SAY they’re Republican. Not very bright and can’t do research. Bet he doesn’t know who else served with Ayers and Obama.

MLB,
He designed them.  They were meant to kill soldiers (at Fort Dix, I believe).  Most likely his plan, which is probably why the girlfriend was one of the casualties.  Terrific people.  Course if you studied under him you must buy into his b.s. education theories as well.

I am so glad I got out of academia.

tom, you still haven’t replied about McCain’s close friend and campaign contributor, convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy.  Is it only being friendly with people who were never convicted of anything that you have a problem with, but palling around with convicted felons is perfectly fine?

Today, October 6, 2008, David Axlerod, stated that Barack Obama was unaware of Mr. Ayers radical background in 1995 when he attended a reception hosted by Ayers and his wife, Bernadine Dorhn in their home in support of Obama’s candidacy for state senate.

Earlier this year 2008, Obama has stated that he had ‘denounced’ the radical/violent activities of William Ayers, but when and where did he do so?

Did Obama denounce Mr. Ayers activities publicly? Where and when? Who can corroborate this?

Or was one of those private type kind of denunciations, not on the public record.

Did Obama denounce Mr. Ayers activities publicly? Where and when? Who can corroborate this?

Here you go.  Took me approximately 10 seconds with Teh Google.  You should try it sometime.

Where’s McCain’s denunciation of convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy?

Sadly, No! has dealt with this whole issue quite well in the recent past.

Mnem, in the wingnugget mind Liddy is not a convicted felon, he’s a convicted patriotTM.

I am so glad I got out of academia.

If your posts are any indication of your academic work, I’m betting it was more a case of academia getting out of you.

Just as a rhetorical point, defending Ayers or offering mitigating interpretations of his actions or nonactions doesn’t really matter and shouldn’t be the response to toms of the world.  The proper response is it doesn’t fucking matter what Ayers did or didn’t do, because it has nothing to do with Obama.  Period.  There is nothing to be gained by defending Ayers, let him get diced by the wingnuggets all they want.  Obama was eight-years-old in 1968.  He was unaware of Ayers history when they first met at another pol’s fundraising event.  There is zero evidence that Obama shares anything with violent 60’s radicals, especially when you consider the generational story of his campaign is “fuck the boomers and their lingering bullshit.”  End of story.  Go home and shut up, tomonthebay.

Mnemosyne:

I looked at your link but it doesn’t reference Obama’s denunciation of Ayer’s actions.  It cites an Obama proxy, Bill Burton asserting that Obama “has condemned the violent activities of the Weathermen Group”.

When and where did Obama himself make such a statement.  Again, can you cite a public statement by Obama, or was it a not-so-that anyone-would-notice-type condemnation.

Here’s my take. My neighbor hosted a coffee meet and greet for a House candidate, yet by no stretch of imagination does the Representative “pal around” with him. Hah, he wishes! The mayor of my city was on the same board with Ayers, but only an idiot would entertain the thought of our mayor endorsing terrorism. It doesn’t take a PhD to get it. I AM Joe Sixpack and even I’m not buying Republican B.S.

Hey J2, are you truly concerned that Obama, a sitting Senator who wrote two books outlining his experience of and vision for the United States, might support the use of pipebombs on American citizens?  Are you that stupid?  Methinks you aren’t.  Methinks you don’t really care if Obama condemned something that a neighbor did 40 years because it doesn’t matter to anyone, least of all you.  I’d do some Googling to find Obama’s original condemnation if I thought it would actually make a difference to you.  You’re just playing wingnugget concern troll because the liberal, smarter-than-you, black man is going to win and you can’t stand it.

When and where did Obama himself make such a statement.  Again, can you cite a public statement by Obama, or was it a not-so-that anyone-would-notice-type condemnation.

So an official spokesperson for the campaign making a statement on the candidate’s behalf doesn’t count?  You sure you want to make that the standard?

Hey, I’d accept an official spokesperson for McCain’s campaign denouncing convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy, but you can’t even come up with that much.  Why are you defending McCain’s friendship with and financial support by a convicted felon?

J2, tom…

You have STILL refused to talk about the OTHER people who served with Ayers. You know, the supporter of Orrin Hatch? And the president of the Presbyterean seminary?

You know why? Because you and the other wingnuts DON’T DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

(Academia, my ass. You don’t show the requisite research skills).

You’re still still spreading the LIE that it’s just about Ayers and Obama.

By the way…

How do you suppose that the Woods Fund has an asset base in the $4-5 million dollar range? And just how did Ayers get money from Walter Annenberg’s foundation? “Dangerous” or “radical” doesn’t cut it, you know? (Then again, wingnuts don’t think it through, do they?)

Not so incidentally, convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy has contributed about 25 times more money to McCain than Ayers did to Obama.  McCain has happily appeared on Liddy’s radio program several times.  And Liddy is someone who advocated shooting federal law enforcement agents in the head less than a year before the Oklahoma City bombing.  Sounds a little, I don’t know, terroristic to advise people to violently murder law enforcement officers a year before someone bombs a federal building, don’t you think?

Of course, all of this happened less than 15 years ago, not 40 years ago, and clearly the things that Ayers said and did 40 years ago when Obama was 8 years old are far more important than the things Liddy said and did less than 15 years ago—and continues doing and saying to this day—when McCain was a full-grown adult and had been a US Senator for over a decade.  Because everyone knows that 8-year-old children are far more responsible for their actions than adults in their 50s.

Loneoak,

I will be very grateful if you would do the work to find the original Obama repudiation of Ayers actions.  It would make a difference to me.  A big difference. Because I don’t think he has ever made such a statement.  Then you can call me lots of names and prove how smart you are and how much you care about proving your point for the record, for the glory, for the sake of historical accuracy, to shut down an annoying wingnut concern troll and so forth. 

And it should be so easy.  If it’s true.

I will be very grateful if you would do the work to find the original Obama repudiation of Ayers actions.  It would make a difference to me.  A big difference. Because I don’t think he has ever made such a statement.

You may “think” he never has but, as usual, you would be completely wrong, J2.  I’ve even highlighted it for you since you don’t seem to read too good:

OBAMA: George, but this is an example of what I’m talking about.
This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who’s a professor of English
in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official
endorsement from. He’s not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a
regular basis.

And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody
who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8 years old,
somehow reflects on me and my values doesn’t make much sense, George.
The fact is that I’m also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most
conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who, during his
campaign, once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death
penalty to those who carried out abortions.

Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn’s statements? Because I
certainly don’t agree with those, either.

So this kind of game in which anybody who I know, regardless of how
flimsy the relationship is, that somehow their ideas could be attributed
to me, I think the American people are smarter than that. They’re not
going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it
obviously isn’t.

Still waiting for your link to McCain’s personal denunciation of Liddy’s advocacy of murdering law enforcement officers.  You can produce that any day now.  Or are Obama’s words from his own lips still somehow not good enough for you, because you’re just so gosh-darned concerned about the whole thing?

Damn right I do, Tommy my love.  Somebody who isn’t bright enough to manage to get three letters in the right order—it’s MBL, not MLB—doesn’t get to pretend he “left” academia, by the way—as if you have the vaguest idea where Ayers stands on education in the first place. 

You have no idea—none—what those bombs were for.  Everything that Bill bombed was late at night, with advance warning, and no Weatherman bombs harmed a single human being other than the people who were building them.  The one thing you think you have him on, he wasn’t even in the STATE for.  He’s a better man than you will ever be, my friend.  That’s all there is to it.

McCain was deeply embarrassed about the Keating situation and apologized.

Really? Is that out of the other side of the same mouth that’s been saying that Keating was a political smear job for which McCain was completely blameless?

He can’t have it both ways. Either Keating was something he apologized for, a mistake he regrets that set him down the path of the Jedi Maverick; or else he was caught up in pure politics and is completely blameless.

In which case - what did he apologize for? He’s either a liar now, or was one then, or both.

It cites an Obama proxy, Bill Burton asserting that Obama “has condemned the violent activities of the Weathermen Group”.

This is normal policy for a presidential candidate, when they have to denounce some lame-ass bullshit. Division of labor and all that.

Because I don’t think he has ever made such a statement.

If he hires a guy to make it on his behalf, I don’t see how that’s different.

We’re not talking about magic words that have to be said just so, in the original Aramaic, or else the bad spirit of Ayers will never be put to rest.

For anyone who’s not an idiot ideologue, the fact that Obama has repudiated Ayers’ violence (such as it was; we’re talking about a mind so apparently diabolical that he’s sitting faculty at the University of Chicago and tapped to manage some of Chicago’s most prominent philanthropies) whether through a spokesperson or in person - or even in private, in a closet by himself - is enough.

Not sure what your problem is.

J2, does Mnem’s evidence count? Or maybe it doesn’t because he didn’t use the word “repudiate”.  Maybe you need a quote from the eight-year-old Obama (who was living in Jakarta at the time) denouncing and repudiating Ayers.

You might claim that a quote from Obama repudiating Ayers matters to you, but I still highly doubt the truth of such a claim.  The only reason a person would require a statement from Obama on this issue is if they thought it was even remotely likely that he supports the use of pipe-bombs on American citizens and soldiers as a legitimate form of protest.  Do you honestly believe that it is possible Obama supports such a despicable thing? 

No, you don’t.  You know damn well that he doesn’t believe it.  McCain/Palin knows it, too.  The Obama–Ayers “controversy” is manufactured by a bunch of fools in the death throes of their politics, and facing down the imminent long-term loss of power.  Own that failure, J2, and then grow up and get some intellectual standards.

Huh.  Funny how I provide J2 exactly the evidence that s/he insists doesn’t exist, and suddenly s/he and his/her big mouth are gone from the thread. 

I was really convinced that s/he would come back claiming that it wasn’t a real denunciation unless Obama personally came to his/her front door and slit Ayers’ throat in front of the media.

MikeEss wins.  Well, as long as he did his best Bruce Campbell impersonation while he typed that.

Whoa. You point to a self-serving statement in an April 2008 nationally televised presidential debate as the first bona fide denunciation of Ayers by Obama as proof of his character. I’d call it another back-against-the-wall case of outright lack of balls.

Also.  Just for fun.  David Axlerod said today that at the time of the 1995 “Obama launch/political intro” held at the Ayers and Dorhn residence, Obama was unaware of their radical past. 

I guess that is also quite plausible.  To you.  I’m sure David Axlerod is a truthful person.

Was Ayers ever convicted of anything?

The real problem: SCARY BLACK MAN doesn’t apply to Ayers.  The republicans are living in the past if they flog this shit.

Has Palin apologized for associating with a treasonous radical who is a member of an organization founded by a man who died building a bomb?  You know ...  TODD PALIN?

J2, you lose.  Give it up.  Spend some time hunting down the G. Gordon Liddy links and Keating story ... far more durable, far more damning than something that an acquaintance of Obama did when Obama was eight years old!

Oh, but your next question will surely be “what about that white stain on Stanley’s blue dress after she dropped Barry with the grandparents and did a summer in Greenwich Village”?

Ayers and Dohrn both turned themselves in after years of living on the lam, only to find out that the FBI’s case against them was so riddled with misconduct that, as far as I know, there was never even any sort of trial.  Neither was convicted of a single damn thing.

When is McCain going to apologize for using his Senate credentials to cover the tracks of a prescription drug abuser and prescription forger?  For enabling her illegal international transport of illegally obtained controlled substances by procuring a no-search diplomatic passport?

RUN COWARD! ROOOOOOOAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR!@!!!!

Ayers and Dohrn both turned themselves in after years of living on the lam, only to find out that the FBI’s case against them was so riddled with misconduct that, as far as I know, there was never even any sort of trial.  Neither was convicted of a single damn thing.

That’s true of Ayers; Dohrn pled to aggravated assault , got probation, and latter served a few months for probation violation after refusing to cooperate with a prosecution of one of her former colleagues.

Whoa. You point to a self-serving statement in an April 2008 nationally televised presidential debate as the first bona fide denunciation of Ayers by Obama as proof of his character.

See, that’s just why this is freakin’ silly. When shown evidence that Obama has in fact repudiated Ayres, in the mainstream media, in a completely public manner, J2 still is not satisfied. What are you expecting, J2? Obama to go and personally beat Bill Ayres up? And don’t you think we know that, even if Obama did in fact go and do that, you would just attack Obama for being too violent?

Also.  Just for fun.  David Axlerod said today that at the time of the 1995 “Obama launch/political intro” held at the Ayers and Dorhn residence, Obama was unaware of their radical past.

Uh, yeah, because 90 percent of us in this country don’t know the fine details of radical groups in the 1960s and really don’t give a shit who did what during Vietnam. Honestly, I didn’t even know that Ayers was one of the Weathermen until this whole thing came up, and I never got the impression that the Weathermen was anything other than a bunch of trustafarians running around on Daddy’s dime pretending to be “revolutionaries” until they got in over their heads.  Then they went running back to Daddy and used his money to get out of legal trouble.

Believe it or not, right now it’s 2008, not 1968.  No one but you cares what anyone was doing in the 1960s because that was forty (40) years ago.  We should probably be concentrating on things that are actually happening today, not things that happened 40 years ago, don’t you think?  Considering that Ayers had been completely accepted by the Annenberg Foundation and other right-of-center policy groups, I’m not surprised that Obama didn’t think it was a big deal that Ayers was one of the guys he worked with.

I am pretty amazed that you can be so terribly worried about the people who might possibly maybe have been injured or killed if the Weathermen hadn’t been a bunch of idiot fuck-ups, but couldn’t care less that 168+ of your fellow Americans have died because of the rabble-rousing that G. Gordon Liddy and his AM radio pals have done.  But I guess it’s par for the course for conservatives to worry more about imaginary people than actual, real, living people.

Speaking of radical pasts, anyone else interested in John McCain’s membership on the board of a right-wing group that funneled money to terrorists in Central America?  J2, anything to say about McCain himself being directly involved in a group that supported terrorists?  Anything?  Bueller?

And yet the photo makes me think of something from 40 years ago. How geeky am I to have no idea who the man is, but to instantly recognize the prop he is holding as Barnabas Collins’ cane?