Big strong macho cop can’t handle a 72 year old woman so he has to tase her?  Sick bastard.

What would happen if someone with a pacemaker were tased?

I have seen this video before and each time the officer was defended for what is clearly atrocious behavior.  There are those that seem to feel that no matter the offense that the police officer in question is above question.  They have so internalized a respect for the badge and the power that comes with it that they refuse to acknowledge that people have rights as citizens.  How is it possible that he could not have restrained a 72 year old woman without resorting to a taser?  He could have killed her.  Those tasers are not non-lethal weapons and should never be discharged.

I mean, what can you even say about this? Let alone about people actually having the gall to defend it. We are a sick society.

This is disgusting. Tasering clearly constitutes lethal and excessive force, and it needs to be done away with.

There’s a similar story that I’m covering over at my blog in which police tasered a deaf and disabled black man for not leaving the bathroom quickly enough.

Stomach now sick.

We started talking about this in a meeting at work and I was the only one saying the cop should not have tased her.  Everyone else was “yeah, but that lady was so belligerent!  What else could he do?”  And I was saying, ok, before the taser, what would the cop have done?  Shot her?  Clubbed her?  No…  but tasers don’t leave noticeable bruises or bullet holes, so it’s all good.  I got pretty heated which is unusual for me at work…

It’s obvious that our society is not interested in banning Tasers, no matter how many times they are used incorrectly and illegally. And personally I would rather that the good cops out there (and they do exist), not have a tool taken away that could result in them being able to subdue a criminal when they would otherwise have to use lethal force.

I know that whenever an officer discharges his or her firearm, they are required to fill out paperwork back at the precinct. Is this the case with Tasers? Because I think that might be the place to start if it isn’t. If we reinforce that they will be held up for review and possibly reprimand if they use their Taser in any circumstance where the suspect was not an imminent threat and the duty weapon would have been used otherwise, then maybe these assholes will think twice before using this weapon on anyone who doesn’t get on their belly and kiss the cop’s boots.

Here is something I have not been able to understand: how is it that these cops, always far bigger and muscley-er than their victims, do not simply place the person’s hands behind their back, handcuff them, and take them into the station for processing of the incident? At WORST, mind you…

Why is it that these sick bastards reach for the taser first, any more? Or should we just be grateful that it’s not a gun?

Great Maude.  If you’re a police officer who doesn’t know how to handle an old lady who’s twice your age and half your size without tasering her, then it’s pink slip time. (not to mention lawsuit time)

America has lost all sense of the proper use of state coercion against the citizenry.  At this point, we might as make tasing the center of a whole new game show, complete with fake audience laughter, and award points based on the victim’s reactions.  Any money earned would go to the victim…or their heirs…

I just realized we’re only a couple steps away from this. 

Isn’t that something to be proud of?...

As Ta-Nehisi Coates said, we now live in a country where our fellow citizens think the cops are well within their rights to arrest you just for talking back to them.  (Though I also love his phrase, “sassing.”)  That’s pretty fucking scary.

<Cop apologist>But you LIE-berals don’t understand that if it wasn’t for him having a taser, he’d have had to SHOOT her? Is that what you want, you moonbats? Cops to shoot old ladies? Huh?</Cop apologist>

I’m probably just a dreadful Pollyanna but for pity’s sake—whatever happened to trying to defuse volatile people? It just seems to me that the more she resists, the more he escalates things by shouting at her and bullying. If I was a cynical sort I would think he was anxious to have a ‘good reason’ to use his he-man taser and creating just such a reason by his own behavior. Isn’t it his job to remain calm? Even when she’s on the ground and howling in agony he continues shouting. I need to not click on these sorts of videos - they just make me desperately sad.

“I’m probably just a dreadful Pollyanna but for pity’s sake—whatever happened to trying to defuse volatile people?”

The cop did “defuse” her.  He used Aggressive Defusion Techniques involving measured application of electrical voltage…

he fact that Constable McCain would watch this video and find (here) that Bieze acted properly raises serious questions of his own judgment.

Why does Turley feel the need to hedge?  If the question is “Does Constable McCain have the judgment required to supervise his force properly?” then the answer is clearly “No.”

If this is standard police procedure then they have gone from substituting tasers for lethal force (gunshot or choke hold—good substitutions in my view) to tasers for any physical force needed to subdue a subject, no matter how old, small or infirm the subject is.  Are cops not being told the tasers can be dangerous or lethal to subjects?

AJones: Don’t be silly.  If a cop exceeds his or her authority, refuse (politely) to comply and tell them they are welcome to arrest you.  Don’t forget to warn them that you’re going to sue the pants off them when the cuffs come off.

“I’d just like to see one “police overreaction” that doesn’t start with the people arrested not acting like idiots.  Cop tells you to stand on one foot and sing the national anthem?  Do it.”

...don’t get out into Reality much, huh?  Actual, living, human beings are so much more disappointing in actual fact than in fiction.

You’d watch The Running Man if it was on Spike, wouldn’t you?  After all, those people are all only getting what they deserve, right?...

(as Amanda and others have pointed out, this is just another example of “the bitch deserved it”...)

The situational factor that maybe makes a supervisor say this was a possibly appropriate use of a taser is the heavy traffic.  She may not have been reasonably seen as violent but it’s easy to imagine a struggle getting her into the car that would have put them both at risk, and also he may not know just how lucid she is and if she’s not in her right mind she might decide to walk off, if not into traffic then down the road, with a struggle required to get her back.  A taser could obviously have injured a 75-year-old woman—no telling what it would have done if she had a pacemaker, for example—but so could have using physical means—handcuffs could easily tear delicate skin on an elderly person, for example, causing excruciating pain and bleeding.

It might be dark humor to point this out, but the chemical equivalent of a taser is bieng used in nursing homes and assisted living facilities all the time following similar though less potentially violent interactions—Seroquel, Risperdal, etc—which make one feel more ‘stunned’ than sedated.  That obviously has negative effects on the overall well-being, ambulation, and hopeful outlook of residents and patients.  It is useful sometimes in extreme cases where nothing else is available to keep someone from hurting others or causing extreme harm to themselves, and then only combined with some form of psychothearpy, but often it’s used as a kind of maintainence drug without any special or different methods of counseling and education.

Off topic?  Not really.  For all the threads about police brutality, how many threads do you see about maltreatment of elderly and instutionalized persons?  Lots of them are people of color too, at least the ones that make it to that age and point in life.

This is why 9/11 made the wingnuts so happy. Eight years of constant reinforcement that you have to comply with arbitrary authority or the terrorists will kill a bunch of liberals.

You know what?

My FIL is a Chicago cop.

One day, he and my MIL were walking around a Walgreens.  Some guy attacked a pregnant woman with a screwdriver.

My FIL was off-duty and did not have his weapon.

My MIL started running looking for him calling his name.  He answered “I got him already!”

Yep, unarmed, out-of-uniform, near retirement age cop took down a guy with a makeshift knife all by his lonesome, because that’s what real cops are trained to do.

This asshole tasing a 72 y/o needs to be fired.  There’s is NO REASON for it.  Would he have used a gun?  No.  Then there was no reason for a taser.

As I said above, this cop is obviously a sick bastard (and a lazy and/or inept one if he can’t handle a belligerent 72 year old woman).  That said, I wonder at the people who are so mouthy to cops.  To me, it defies all logic to be an ass to someone 2x your size who is armed and has the ability to lock your ass up for at least a few hours, especially when you did something obviously illegal.  Yes, I realize that cops are trained professionals who serve the public and they should be able to diffuse the situation.  And no, we shouldn’t have to be bootlicking sycophants to public servants. But why start something you KNOW you’re going to lose?

BadKitty—would you be asking that if he’d shot her instead of “just” tazed her?

Tazing is intended to be a substitute for lethal force, full stop. Being mouthy to a cop doesn’t entitle you to anything resembling lethal force.

She was walking away before he told her to get on the ground while tasing her. How is tasing someone as they walk away from you before you give them a chance to comply to your demands policy?

Hell, anyone remember this guy?

Whatever happened to cops being trained to remain calm in stressful situations?

Mighty Ponygirl, a tazer might also be used in a situation where someone is on the verge of hurting themselves, or causing someone else to hurt them—which would be the case if someone seems on the verge of attacking a police officer or maybe walking out into traffic.

The police officer acted inappropriately, other means of restraining the woman could have and hould have been used.  At the same time though the situation made it difficult for him to do so without putting himself or her at greater risk.  That doesn’t make what he did right, but it may make it difficult for a supervisor to reprimand him.  About the only thing he could have done different would have been to physically restrain her, which could have caused as much damage, maybe even more, if for example he forced her to the ground to put on handcuffs, broke a hip bone (maybe already held in place by pins), possibly breaking a major blood vessel when doing so. 

This isn’t to say that any of these sensitive considerations ran though the police officer’s head—it’s likely it didn’t, but one would hear of such things from the supervisor in rationalizing what he did —the traffic rushing behind him and the possibility of a struggle in or next to traffic was probably more on his mind.

Being mouthy to a cop doesn’t entitle you to anything resembling lethal force.

Supposedly.  And, honestly, it is also used as other than a replacement for leathal force, say in stoping a fight when nothing else works, like the old billy club.

It used to be be understood that being a cop entailed taking some bullshit from loudmouths, regardless of gender or age.  Part of the job was a certain forebearance with such people.  Not any more, I guess.  Taze ‘em, arrest them in their own home, etc.

Anyone notice that the fox news link has a poll attached? “Should he have tased grandma?” I’m not even going to click on the results.

Also: @AJones- we’re already in a place where being not properly submissive to a cop can get you arrested/hurt/killed. Do you think that’s a good thing? Because what that woman and others are doing by not complying is trying to keep this from getting worse.

I think the scariest thing is his supervisor. If this is how cops are being trained and encouraged, then this isn’t going to stop without a full restructuring of what it means to be a police force, i think.

southern students—she was walking away from the traffic. That is not “she was in danger of hurting herself.”

The cop had interposed himself between the little old lady and the traffic. She would have to navigate around him if she was really going to jump out into traffic. With a 6’8 fullback, I can see a cop making the reasoned argument that keeping the person out of traffic required a use of a tazer. Not with a little old lady.

But by all means, keep apologizing for this numbnuts.

Mighty Ponygirl, a tazer might also be used in a situation where someone is on the verge of hurting themselves, or causing someone else to hurt them—which would be the case if someone seems on the verge of attacking a police officer or maybe walking out into traffic.

That was the rationale for tasing a mentally ill man walking on top of a 10-foot wall in Brooklyn, who subsequently fell from the wall he was walking on and died.

The cop who ordered the tasing in that case ended up committing suicide because he couldn’t live with it, so overuse of the Taser caused two deaths in that case.

I’d just like to see one “police overreaction” that doesn’t start with the people arrested not acting like idiots.  Cop tells you to stand on one foot and sing the national anthem?  Do it.  Sort it out later.

Just hand your wallet over to the <strike>mugger</strike> cop and he won’t hurt you.  Is that about right?

I guess there really is no difference between cops and criminals anymore—all you have to do is follow their orders and you probably won’t get hurt.  Unless you do something foolish like trying to walk away or having your wallet in your hand.

Mighty Pony Girl - I believe I already stated -TWICE - that the cop was in the wrong and a dickhead.  My point is that it doesn’t make sense to poke a grizzly bear.  The woman was not to blame for the way the cop mishandled the situation.  I’m just baffled as to why people would deliberately provoke a cop because it is a confrontation that you will lose.  The only question is how badly you’ll lose.

Mighty Ponygirl, the posts above aren’t apologizing for what the police officer did—it was inappropriate, to use the langauge the police supervisor might have used, one would have hoped—if anything the posts might be an apology for the system of reviewing police conduct, but there’s problems with that too. 

If you want to call it police brutality, fine, it’s obviously pretty close to that, though again the traffic and seemingly irrational behavior of the 75-year-old has to qualify that at least in the eyes of the supervisor—and it’s not apologizing to try to see it from the eyes of a supervisor. If you were sitting on a task force investigating police misconduct and trying to formulate recommendations you’d in a sense be his supervisor too.

Police officers aren’t counselors any more than soldiers are humanitarian aid workers.  Sometimes police officers and soldiers are put in situations where it’s part of their job to be like that, and sometimes that’s effective, but one shouldn’t expect them to excel at that, it sort of goes against a large part of their training.

It’s probably no good to debate specifics of the video, but it looks like the woman may be either trying to leave the scene, turn and walk and get in her car maybe from the passenger side, or it’s not sure what—sit down?  In any case she supposedly wants to be taken to jail, or said so, and if that’s the case it’s not clear that she’s acting rationally or she might go along with what the police officer appeared to be trying to do, put her in handcuffs—unless she thinks he’s going to arrest her without putting her in handcuffs, which is absurd, he’s a police officer, not a cab driver.

Are you a good wife?

Really??

I like your blog - but not that add.

BadKitty—I’m simply pointing out that questions like the one you raised are a soft form of victim-blaming. I am aware that you already said the cop was a jerk. However, it’s important to separate the woman’s attitude from what was done to her. She was not in danger of hurting herself, or the officer, he could have easily subdued her and cuffed her and put her in the back of the squad car without having to taze her.

There are people in this country to pretty much expect to be hassled and persecuted by the police, and yes, some of them give cops bad attitude even when they’re in the wrong, because they do not have any expectation that the police will treat them fairly. I do not believe that these people should be tazed, either.

Once we create this expectation that when you lip off to the authority figure you more or less get what’s coming to you (even if we don’t agree with it—simply having that expectation there is a form of tacit approval), we create an environment where this sort of thing is commonplace.

Are you a good wife?

Really??

I like your blog - but not that add.

Think of it this way: Pandagon receives ads revenue from a company that is unable to properly target its ads, so that the money they’re giving the blog is wasted on people who will never click through. The only way this is bad is if the blog need click-thrus to get any money, in which case the fact that Google is running an idiotic piece of ad targetting software is a hit to their revenue.

The mods here have absolutly no control over what ads get shown, it’s all about Google looking for keywords and trying to find something relevant to the discussion. The fact that it seems we always get stupid right-wing ads seems to show to me the discrepancy between how much money the Captains of Industry are spending in propaganda versus what progressives have available to them.

“Once we create this expectation that when you lip off to the authority figure you more or less get what’s coming to you (even if we don’t agree with it—simply having that expectation there is a form of tacit approval), we create an environment where this sort of thing is commonplace.”

I think that train left the station a long time ago.  We’re taught to be sheep by our overlords and too many of us have learned the lesson well.

Any look at these kinds of threads, where the cop-defenders rise up from the murky depths to make sure all the rest of us know our place, will tell where some in America are at…

Police officers aren’t counselors any more than soldiers are humanitarian aid workers.

That’s why we differentiate between armies and peacekeeping troops.  Armies are supposed to roll in and destroy everything in sight.  Peacekeeping troops are supposed to try and keep people from killing each other, and they’re not supposed to kill people unless it’s absolutely necessary.

I’m not sure when our police became an occupying army instead of a peacekeeping force, but it’s pretty horrifying how many people think it’s totally normal that people are supposed to be terrified of the police and avoid them at all costs because you just don’t know what they’re going to do to you.  That’s the kind of shit we used to criticize authoritarian countries for, but I guess we were really just envious and wanted our very own KGB to arrest people whenever they feel like it.

About the only thing he could have done different would have been to physically restrain her, which could have caused as much damage, maybe even more, if for example he forced her to the ground to put on handcuffs, broke a hip bone (maybe already held in place by pins), possibly breaking a major blood vessel when doing so.

How about a little perspective here.

It was a traffic stop.  She was speeding.  She’s getting a ticket and paying a fine.

Speeding is not a crime punishable by jail, unless it’s included in a ‘reckless driving’ complaint.  I don’t think Grandma was going 100+ mph in a 35 mph zone, b/c she wouldn’t have been given a ticket for that.

She refused to accept the ticket and sign it.  What else could the poor cop do?

Well, he’s got her on his dash cam.  He’s got her information.  He’s got her license number.

He could just let her leave  He could follow her home or to a less dangerous strip of road and then pull her over again.  He could call it in.  Refusing to sign a ticket is not a jailable offense either.  She’s just subject to additional fines, if that.

Instead, he does the equivalent of shooting her in the leg.  OVER A SPEEDING TICKET.

He tased her for a speeding ticket.

A speeding ticket that is punishable by a small fine.

Perspective, people.  There is absolutely no justification for tasing Grandma.  There is no law requiring people to be polite to anyone, even public servants whose salaries they pay.  Would it be nice if people were respectful?  Sure.  But it is completely unacceptable that police are being given passes for escalating non-incidents or revenue-generating fine situations into arrests and /or using deadly force.

This is America, after all.  The Constitution is supposed to matter.

Thank you Texas for fucking over the school books so much that people don’t understand what freedom means anymore.

It strikes me as worth saying, that every time these brutal cops back them up and say the tazing/brutality is justified, they are just trying really really hard to avoid a gigantic million dollar lawsuit, in which they would surely have to pay very heavy damages.

Not that they don’t DESERVE to pay them for failing to properly train these loose cannon thug cops. But I believe that is the motivation for the back-up, not simply being so brain-dead that you think tasering deaf people and the elderly is A-OK.

Um, I mean, everytime THEIR SUPERIORS back up these brutal cops…heh

Just to be clear:  I am NOT apologizing for the cop or justifying his behavior.  And I agree with your point, Mighty Ponygirl.

Once we create this expectation that when you lip off to the authority figure you more or less get what’s coming to you (even if we don’t agree with it—simply having that expectation there is a form of tacit approval), we create an environment where this sort of thing is commonplace.

I’m nervous now when I’m the one who called the police for assistance.  I have zero trust in law enforcement because we have a number of cops/thugs with attitude problems in the small city where I live. For example, I was pulled over for going 3 mph over the speed limit because I passed a squad car.  When I asked the officer what the problem was, because I believed the limit to be 35 rather than 30, he said that he thought I was “dusting” him and he was all attitude.  “What am I going to find when I run your tabs?”  Not a fucking thing, asshole.  For the record, I’m a 47 year old woman driving a 12 year old Saturn. No exactly the “Fast and Furious” type.

It’s obvious that our society is not interested in banning Tasers, no matter how many times they are used incorrectly and illegally.

It’s obvious that as modern capitalist society starts tatterring further and further , the system is starting to take the gloves off.  And conditioning people to think of that as normal.  America’s just the most advanced instance of this.

Get ready for the future, brother…

This shit pisses me off in part because tasers should primarily be a substitute for guns.  In a situation where a cop would otherwise shoot someone, when a suspect goes for a back pocket (maybe it’s a gun, maybe it’s a wallet) for example, a taser can be used and save a life, especially if the object turns out to be non-lethal.  But, of course, we can’t have nice things, because there are so many power mad, insecure, incompetent fools who will abuse something like this.

Caren: “He could just let her leave. He could follow her home or to a less dangerous strip of road and then pull her over again.  He could call it in.  Refusing to sign a ticket is not a jailable offense either.  She’s just subject to additional fines, if that.”

  You beat me to it. The whole time I was watching the video (I still feel a bit ill) I was thinking the same thing. There was no reason for this to escalate, the police officer should have let her get in her car and drive away and then pursued the matter of the traffic tickets in court.

  I know that this has been stated over and over but it is the responsibility of the police officer to maintain composure and act in a reasonable fashion, even if the person they are interacting with is not.

Very often, tasering incidents remind me of the Far Side cartoon where a group of cowboys are sitting around a campfire, one of them on the ground and another holding a smoking pistol.  The gunman says, “You guys are all witnesses—he laughed when my marshmallow caught on fire!”

Tasering an old lady because she says, “I dare you” seems like exactly that kind of juvenile overreaction.

Caren - exactly. I don’t under-estimate the seriousness of speeding as a crime. It kills both the perpetrators and other drivers/passengers. Speed limits exist for a reason, they should be enforced, and I have no sympathy for those caught exceeding them. 72 year olds should pay the fines (or if worse, go to prison) the same as anyone else. But I don’t think the speeder needsw to be assaulted when a letter to their home address will do. A speed camera wouldn’t have leapt off its pole and electrocuted her, so why does the policeman need to? The policeman’s actions would be equally appalling had the driver been a 22 year old man. Except that if that had been the case, I suspect the man would have been shot.

About the only thing he could have done different would have been to physically restrain her, which could have caused as much damage, maybe even more, if for example he forced her to the ground to put on handcuffs, broke a hip bone (maybe already held in place by pins), possibly breaking a major blood vessel when doing so.

You think being tased is like falling onto a featherbed full of chinchillas trained to give you backrubs? We’re talking about sending an elderly woman into convulsions and heart spasms that throw her, writhing, to the asphalt. There is no fucking way that’s going to cause less damage than just handcuffing her (not that that was called for either).

Do these people not have grandmothers? Seriously….urge to kill…RISING.

I’m just baffled as to why people would deliberately provoke a cop because it is a confrontation that you will lose.  The only question is how badly you’ll lose.

Most people who get pulled over are angry, nervous, and/or baffled about it; often all three at once.  It’s the cop’s job to stay calm, reassure people and keep a lid on things, especially when the driver is a lot older and frailer than the cop. So yeah, Grandma shouldn’t have said “I dare you.” but the burden of keeping things cool falls on him, not her. Like Spiderman says “With great power comes great responsibility.”

Besides, most folks know that hitting somebody smaller, older, and frailer than you will get you tagged as a bully at best, no matter how much they might provoke you. If the average person realizes this, then a cop certainly should.

America has lost all sense of the proper use of state coercion against the citizenry.  At this point, we might as make tasing the center of a whole new game show, complete with fake audience laughter, and award points based on the victim’s reactions.  Any money earned would go to the victim…or their heirs…

I’m sure Japan’s already made that show…

In my opinion, the lady was stupid to dare the cop to tase her. However, I think it was pure laziness for the cop to use a taser on the old lady. He could have taken her down easily, but there probably would have been scrapes and bruises. I can see why some cops would prefer to use the taser, though… so perps can’t sue for police brutality. There’s a reason why a taser is called non-lethal force.

Since tasers have in fact caused hundreds of deaths, I’m guessing that reason is marketing.

This reminds me of a probably apocryphal tale about the Texas Rangers.  Once upon a time there was this town in Texas, and for some reason or another there was a riot going on.  So the mayor got on the telephone and called for the Texas Rangers for help.  A couple hours later a train pulls into the town’s railroad station, where the mayor is anxiously waiting.  One man steps off the train, walks up to the mayor, and says, “How do you do, Mr. Mayor.  The Texas Rangers got a call for help and sent me.”

The mayor says, “What?  They only sent one Ranger?!”

The Ranger replies, “Well, there’s only one riot.”

The point being that back in the old days cops used to be brave.  But nowadays, sheesh!  I’ll be damned if I know what has happened to them these last couple of decades.  Big tall heavily-armed guy needs a Taser to restrain a little old lady?  That’s impressive, and not in a good way.  There’s only one word for a guy like that, and that word is “coward.”  I’ve had miniature poodles with more balls that that pants-wetting idiot.

About the only thing he could have done different would have been to physically restrain her, which could have caused as much damage, maybe even more, if for example he forced her to the ground to put on handcuffs, broke a hip bone (maybe already held in place by pins), possibly breaking a major blood vessel when doing so.

Except that that’s about the worst possible way of going about restraining someone. I did a couple of evenings training on non-violent restraint when I was working for a student venue, and I know about half a dozen ways of restraining someone with minimal force and practically no risk of injury (unless they try something absurdly acrobatic to get out of it). What the hell kind of training do your cops get?