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Next entry: CSA Week #24: “A Rant & Mistakes Were Made” Edition Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten: 80s Week Edition

80s Week: Reconsidering “Dirty Dancing”

Movies

Confession time: I’ve spent most of the past couple of decades hating “Dirty Dancing”.  Let’s face it—-it’s a go-nowhere movie with a cheesy and incongruous 80s ending tacked on.  The news songs that were written for the soundtrack sound really awful next to the classic early rock and roll featured in the film.  And are we really supposed to believe that Patrick Swayze’s character, who pulls off moves he clearly learned in ballet, is just some schmuck who picked up ballroom dancing on the job and now works in the lowest rung of professional dancers? My main objection to the movie, however, was that it was the most favorite film of roughly every girl my age in my tween years, which meant I watched it roughly one million times.  Every slumber party, every time you hung out at someone’s house after school, every weekend that you had a dollar and wanted to go see a movie at the dollar theater.  Above all other things, I was sick of it.

Subsequently, I haven’t actually watched it in probably 20 years, though I can still basically play it on a reel in my head, at least the major plot points.  But I did rewatch large chunks of it recently, while helping Marc with a film reel for the prom tonight.  My conclusion is that it’s still a shit movie, but only in parts.  In other parts, it’s actually a pretty good movie.  And it does a couple of things that you almost never see in mainstream Hollywood movies, and those things it does very well.  I think this explains its enduring popularity, which just so happened to be chronicled recently in the WSJ.

According to PageData, a company that tracks metrics and trends on Facebook, the film has more than 6.3 million fans on the site, ranking it sixth among movies. That’s just below mega leaders like “Twilight” and “Harry Potter,” but above “Avatar,” which clocks in at 3.9 million fans.

Lionsgate Home Entertainment Executive Vice President Anne Parducci said the film gets about 150,000 new Facebook fans each week.

“It’s really just people saying they love the movie, they love Patrick [Swayze], they love, love, love everything,” said Ms. Parducci. “There is an innocence to the movie that is so endearing. My 16-year-old daughter says to me, ‘I wish I could live back then.’”

Rewatching it, I have to say that actually its popularity probably has little to do with its “innocence” and more to do with its lack of it.  What immediately comes across is that this is an extremely sexy movie.  But it’s sexy in a way that you almost never see in movies—-from a sex-positive, feminist-minded, heterosexual point of view.  (Honest portrayals of lesbian sexuality are even more rare.)  Attention is lavished on Patrick Swayze’s body, of course, but it’s more than that.  Most sex in most movies, at least dramas, is shown as deadly serious, but the sex in this movie is mostly playful and filled with laughter.  The overly serious portrayal of sex in movies tends to feel sex negative to me, because it discounts how much of sex is just about joy, pleasure, and fun.  There’s also a strong focus on the female longing for actual sex.  There’s a lot of business in the movie about distance, not touching, and all that.  Most portrayals of straight female sexuality root it in the longing for male approval and romance, but this movie portrayals sexual desire as its own thing that women possess—-the animal need to touch and to have.  Jennifer Grey’s name in the movie is “Baby”, but it takes on ironic tone, since she takes to fucking like a duck to water.  Rewatching it with an open mind, I was surprised at how some of these scenes went past right all my defenses and straight to the part of my brain that thinks, this.  Most romantic movies are about a woman submitting to a man in some fashion, but this movie shows erotic love as empowering, and suggests that what’s really hot is treating sex like a two-person adventure instead of a capitulation.

No wonder women cling to this movie so fiercely.

On top of it all, the movie stands against a gazillion social messages that shame women for their sexuality, and it does it with confidence.  Until the cheeseball ending, there’s no sense really that the main couple are going to last past the end credits, and that’s okay.  Having a fling and an adventure without it meaning that you’re a dirty slut who will be heartbroken for life is normalized.  Most astoundingly, this movie still stands as one of the few—-only?—-Hollywood films to portray abortion in a realistic, humane fashion.  Even though the abortion is botched, there’s never a whiff of feeling that Penny is getting punished for being sexually active or having an abortion.  On the contrary, the incident is just another example of how unfair Penny’s life is, and how decent a person she is despite it all.  How the characters react to her abortion is a barometer of how good they are as people—-kind and supportive people are good people, whereas her cad boyfriend who didn’t even have the decency to pay for it is the bad guy.  And, if that wasn’t enough in terms of this movie bravely and effectively showing things that are forbidden in most of Hollywood, the movie portrays very well a platonic friendship between Johnny and Penny.  This is two years before “When Harry Met Sally”, a movie that dramatically toed the Hollywood line in suggesting there is no such thing as non-sexual love between straight men and straight women. 

It’s still a crap movie.  All of this stuff is really great, and then it just falls apart, because I don’t think the writer knew what she wanted her third act to be.  The conflict doesn’t really feel real (though there is still one great scene where Baby’s sister is kind to her despite their frequent conflicts—-did I mention that this movie actually portrays women as supportive of each other in substantive and complex ways, instead of just “you go, girl!” ways?) towards the end, and then everything is wrapped up in a neat bow.  The last scene feels like it’s from a different movie altogether, in fact, with the crappy music and the strange and sudden sentimental reversal of attitude of all the camp-goers and the (Jesus Christ) coordinated dance scene.  I’m cringing to think about it.  But it’s interesting to wonder if you could have just sliced that off and had a different movie, one that is remembered as a pretty solid and surprisingly feminist film, instead of the cheesefest that is actually onscreen.

Thoughts?  Am I being too generous?  Or am I being too harsh?  Do you love this movie?  Hate it?  Or are you like I am now, standing in the middle, depending on what scene you’re watching?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:31 PM • (43) Comments

Good article, except you missed out one of the best bits: You know baby’s boyfriend is an asshole when he tries to give her an Ayn Rand book complete with underlined passages because ‘it’s about people like us, and how we’re better’ or something equally transparent. Then Jennifer Grey gives him one of those Ferris Bueller put down looks.

Comment #1: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  12/03  at  03:31 PM

@1: I never saw Dirty Dancing and since I became conscious of my bisexuality really late in my teens, Patrick Swayze was the sex symbol for the past generation of gay/bi males and just thinking of seeing one of his movies makes me want to gag (I have developped a gay crush on Ryan Reynolds, even though I know full well that if it wasn’t for his dreamy face I would not watch most of his crap movies).

But if there’s a scene like that with the Ayn Rand book, I might just have to watch it.

Comment #2: BlackBloc  on  12/03  at  03:44 PM

Plus my gf and I are fans of Jennifer Grey for her work on “L word” so that might warrant a watch.

Comment #3: BlackBloc  on  12/03  at  03:46 PM

@3: I think might be thinking of Jennifer Beals in Flashdance. I do the same thing.

Comment #4: AaronR  on  12/03  at  03:54 PM

Amanda, you also have to put this movie in context of the times and place.  Reagan was President.  Alex Keaton was the most popular TV character.  This movie took classism head on and to those of us in the working class, it told a bit of our story—what it was like to work for these assholes. 
Add that to the pro-woman aspects of the movie…well, there’s a reason that when someone asks what one’s favorite line is, the answer is often “No one puts Baby in the corner.”  All around corniest line ever but when so many of us, women, working class, liberals, etc, felt like we were in the corner, it was nice to hear.

Comment #5: ChristinaM33  on  12/03  at  03:55 PM

I’m only a year older than Amanda (almost exactly—my birthday is September 4) and Dirty Dancing really was ubiquitous in during my tween years.  I still love it, though.  I can see all the flaws, and the ending really, really doesn’t go with the rest of the movie, but it is one of my absolute guilty pleasures.

Comment #6: ks  on  12/03  at  03:58 PM

I really, really hope you extend 80s week, because this has been utterly fantastic.  Every post has been entertaining as all hell, and incredibly interesting.

Comment #7: Ailuridae  on  12/03  at  04:03 PM

Oh the politics of it are great.  But politics =/ art.  Good politics don’t automatically lead to good art, and vice versa.  That’s aesthetic Stalinism, and something I watch out for carefully as I approach the subject of the intersection of the two.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/03  at  04:12 PM

I think why I currently like Dirty Dancing so much is because it’s one of those movies that changed for me as I changed.  The ending is definitely incongruous, but that just meant it attracts people (women in particular) at different places in their lives. 

Personally, I like the whole thing, but it’s like watching two different movies.  Cheesy dance flicks are my secret shame, so the bit at the end with the coordinated group dance makes me incredibly happy.  It definitely doesn’t have anything to do with the rest of the film, though, so it’s like switching off one part of my brain in favor of another.  It did, however, mean that more people saw it, which I think is important. 

It also kind of grows with you.  It feels innocent when it’s not, which is attractive to kids and teenagers.  As you grow up and become more aware, you start to realize all of the shit going on in the background.  For instance, I got that the scene SKoF mentioned meant that the boyfriend was a total douche when I was a kid, but it wasn’t until high school that I understood the larger context of the moment and the book.  When I was in college I realized that scene wasn’t even an exaggeration at all.  There are people who actually, unashamedly, are just that horrible—and are just as pleased about themselves as that dude.

It also flew under the radar a bit.  If it had been marketed or received as a female-centric-sex-positive-slightly-feminist-pro-choice film then it wouldn’t have had much of a reach, and I certainly wouldn’t have been permitted to watch it.  But it was received as a feel-good-rom-com-nostalgia-dance-flick which meant as a proto-feminist trapped in a crazy religious home I got to see what a botched abortion really (sort of) looked like.  It wasn’t a major turning point or anything, but it’s certainly a brick in the path that eventually led me to feminism.  The ending could be viewed as a compromise, but it also made it stealthy enough to reach a lot of young girls it wouldn’t have reached otherwise.

Comment #9: Ailuridae  on  12/03  at  04:28 PM

Dirty Dancing was also a reality antidote to the “Happy Days” bullshit about the 1950s: illegal abortion and it’s septic aftermath, girls slut shamed for having sex, working class vs. the Ayn Rand bullshit, girls nicknamed “baby.”

I’m still a fan of cheesy dance movies, but there was substance to Dirty Dancing not found in other cheesy dance movies.

Except for the ending, the cheesy ‘80s turnes, and “Baby’s” hairdo, it was an fairly accurate picture of the period, and a young woman’s bildungsroman.

Comment #10: judybrowni  on  12/03  at  04:40 PM

I’m intrigued that you see the ending as some sort of indication that this is seen as more than a fling. I’m a bit older, but even when I first saw it, I read it as Johnny absolutely knowing he’d never see her again, and Baby knowing but choosing not to know. But instead of ending it as “well, that was fun” or “you know this is only temporary” they both played it with each other as getting as much as they could without ruining the moment.

I always felt that they parted with the “promise you’ll write” conversation, and then, somehow never got around to it. That they knew what they had was temporary, but that it wasn’t tawdry like what was going on with many of the others.

Which for me was yet another of those “seems innocent but really isn’t” aspects to the film.

And yeah, cheesy ending, but hey, so what?

Comment #11: Lymis  on  12/03  at  04:42 PM

I love this movie with a fiery passion of a thousand suns.  You covered most of it Amanda but want to go a bit deeper on a couple of points.  1) it was a great portrayal of abortion for low-income working class women.  Penny needs to figure out who will cover her shift and how to pay for it.  It really says the right to abortion means nothing if the woman is denied access because of her class and income.  2) The Baby-Johnny relationship.  Ever notice how she is never trying to live up to his standards or please him?  She STANDS UP FOR HIM but doesn’t change herself for him.  And he standing up for him is the logical extension of her unformed ideas about social justice.  AND he REALLY INTO her. It’s the flip side of Pretty in Pink where the GUY wants to be seen in public with the girl.

Comment #12: verucaamish  on  12/03  at  04:45 PM

Ya, I really enjoyed the film when I saw it, mostly because it didn’t downplay or pussyfoot around what are really complicated adult issues (responsibilities, abortion, friendship, desperation) that need to be dealt with in grownup ways. As a teen realizing that these were things I’d have to start thinking about was pretty important*

I also enjoyed that while some of the charachters really were just archetypes (“plucky kid brother-type” “old man living in the past”) they did bother to try and flesh those characters out enough that you noticed them and they weren’t just placeholders with no other purpose than to churn the plot clunkily along.

So ya, I like the movie… maybe you could pretend that the dance number at the end is a dream sequence in either of their minds? A kind of “wouldn’t it be great if…” happily ever after to the whole thing?

I also have to admit that I was given tickets to the Dirty Dancing musical that was on stage in Toronto a while back and hated it… imagine Dirty Dancing where the male lead was cast waaaay older than the female lead and where there was no chemistry and they didn’t even seem to like each other… bah! At least the movie was well acted and well cast!

*specifically on friendship and who will stand by you in times of need. That Johnny took full responsibility for the welfare of his friend and partner despite there being no romance there at all was eye opening in the best of ways to teenage me.

Comment #13: kodiak  on  12/03  at  05:07 PM

A couple of other points: Baby was not classically beautiful (Grey’s distinctive looks have since been destroyed by plastic surgery), she had a public conscience (wanted to work for the Peace Corps), and was kind of clumsy in a lot of ways until—through both dance and sex, she learned to *own* her body.  (Also, her real name was Frances, named after Frances Perkins, FDR’s secretary of labor: A nice nod to the progressive tradition.)

And I agree that the Ayn Rand moment was a great one: at that time, as I recall, Rand was the province of geeky, would-be Supermen, assholes all, who later made “Going Galt” a platform in public policy. But in the mid-80s, they were still just assholes.

Comment #14: Molly Ivors  on  12/04  at  01:24 PM

It was all Jerry Orbach. wink

Comment #15: Theresa  on  12/04  at  02:16 PM

Fast Times at Ridgemont High also depicted an abortion. I’m sure there was some judgment about it, but it was relatively understated, especially compared to what you would see now.

Was it before the culture warriors monitored every movie and pressured the studios?

Comment #16: bay of arizona  on  12/04  at  03:07 PM

Orbach was awesome. I really liked his character - he loves his family, patiently supports his daughter’s silly “Hawaiian” song performance, helps out Penny without any self-serving moralizing. and manages to rise above a movie full of stereotypes. 
And Patrick Swayze - well, I think he is a work of art.  His only fault is that he saved a silly, cheesy, otherwise forgettable movie from obscurity. 
The matter-of-fact handling of Penny’s abortion, highlighting her strength, her real friendship with Johnny and the unfairness of her situation was also a bright spot.  Plus, she could really dance.
Never could summon up any real interest in the “main” character of Baby.  She struck me as fairly dull and unlikeable.

Comment #17: happyfungirl  on  12/04  at  03:17 PM

I hated the end of the movie too.  They’re dancing to a song that didn’t even exist at the time.  Moreover, the record that gets put on the record player is one of those smaller singles records where the song lasts no more than three minutes, and yet the song goes on and on longer than the space on the record would have allowed.  Yeah, I know, I take these things too seriously.

Calling Gray’s character “Baby” also annoyed me.  I understand the symbolism of it, but it was just too much for me.

Bay of Arizona: Re: Fast Times At Ridgemont High, I don’t recall any judgmentalism about the abortion.  Jennifer Jason Leigh’s character did it in secret, her brother played by Judge Reinhold, somehow stumbled onto what she was doing and met her outside after the procedure was done, but it was all in a “Don’t worry about it, I’ve got your back” kind of way.

Fast Times came out in 1982, before the High Reagan years kicked in.

IIRC, another 80’s teen movie that dealt with abortion was The Last American Virgin.  The girl the main character has a crush on is impregnated by his friend, and the friend dumps her.  The main character pays for the abortion and helps her out and tells her he loves her, only to find her back in the arms of his friend at the end.

Comment #18: Tommykey  on  12/04  at  04:25 PM

@1 - I object to calling that creep Baby’s “boyfriend”. He’s some guy who wants her and follows her around, but I don’t remember her liking him back or in any way stating that she was officially dating him. If anything, he was her suitor, not her boyfriend.

I love the movie utterly and completely. I like to watch it when its on TV but I wonder if they cut any scenes when they do that? I ought to get it on DVD. I love the messages of the movie AND the dancing, even the cheesy dancing at the end.

Comment #19: geogami  on  12/04  at  05:19 PM

Tommykey at 18: The Last American Virgin probably only dealt with abortion because the Israeli movie it was Americanized from, Eskimo Lemon, also had an abortion in it. Its also why the Last American Virgin ended a bit differently than other American teen movies.

  Re the ending of Dirty Dancing, its probably best if you approach this from a Jewish perspective and see the ending as a pro-romance with the goyim argument. Its part of the intermarriage debates in the Jewish community. To a certain extent, Dirty Dancing is a Jewish movie and probably wouldn’t work if most of the characters were not Jewish.

Comment #20: Lee  on  12/04  at  06:46 PM

Sorry, the Israeli film is Eskimo Limon:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_Limon

Comment #21: Lee  on  12/04  at  06:49 PM

Fast Times at Ridgemont High also depicted an abortion. I’m sure there was some judgment about it, but it was relatively understated, especially compared to what you would see now.

I think the comment eater ate my comment from last night…

I think this movie qualifies…  I don’t recall any serious condemnation of the abortion, just an effort to hide it from the girl’s parents.  Her brother was supportive, and her friend went after the deadbeat biy who refused to step up…

Was it before the culture warriors monitored every movie and pressured the studios?

There have always been assholes.  They just were’t quite as powerful as they are now.

Comment #22: James  on  12/04  at  07:58 PM

In the late 1980s, I had a summer-long babysitting job for a younger girl who was obsessed with this movie, owned it on VHS, and watched it every single afternoon. The only day we skipped, we were watching Jessica McClure get pulled out of a well. 

I haven’t seen it since that job ended (OH my GOD I was SO SICK of that movie) but reading this is totally making me want to watch it again.

Comment #23: Naomi  on  12/04  at  08:22 PM

@1 and @19:  I think the guy who gave The Fountainhead to Baby was actually Penny’s schmuck boyfriend, who was also pursuing Baby’s sister.  According to google this is the exchange when Baby asks him to help Penny with the abortion:

Robbie Gould: I didn’t spend all summer long toasting bagels just to bail out some little chick who probably balled every guy in the place.

[Baby is pouring water into glasses for him]

Robbie Gould: A little precision please, Baby… Some people count and some people don’t.

[Brings out a copy of The Fountainhead from his pocket]

Robbie Gould: Read it. I think it’s a book you’ll enjoy, but make sure you return it. I have notes in the margin.

Baby: You make me sick. Stay away from me, stay away from sister or I’ll have you fired.

[Baby pours the jug of water on his crotch]

That was one my favorite moments in the movie.

Also, I agree that the last dance scene was pretty awful, but I though Baby and Johnny’s goodbye scene was perfect.  They actually seemed like they were saying goodbye, and not pretending like they were going to have a future together.

Comment #24: mayfly  on  12/04  at  10:30 PM

Doesn’t the Fountainhead have a rape sequence in it?
I think so, so Baby’s revulsion is extra awesome.
I saw it when I was a high school freshman…in retrospect I wish it wasn’t with my dad.
The last dance scene is lame, though.

Comment #25: chicating  on  12/05  at  12:09 AM

James, I don’t know. The Hayes Code could be pretty draconian when it was in force.

Comment #26: Lee  on  12/05  at  12:29 AM

“Doesn’t the Fountainhead have a rape sequence in it?”

That’s how the hero’s relationship with the heroine starts.  There’s not even the window-dressing ambiguity she put in Atlas Shrugged.

Comment #27: preying mantis  on  12/05  at  01:16 PM

Lee, that is true.  But by 1980 the Hayes Code was no longer operative.

Comment #28: James  on  12/05  at  01:53 PM

@24, yep, that’s the relationship as I remember it.  The guy was persuing the sister and baby, sort of, but mostly so as to get to the father-a docotr who could help him with med school.

I’m with Para 1 @10, all @ 11, point 1) @ 12 and para 1 @ 13.

Comment #29: helen w. h.  on  12/05  at  01:55 PM

@1 and @19:  I think the guy who gave The Fountainhead to Baby was actually Penny’s schmuck boyfriend, who was also pursuing Baby’s sister. 

As I remember it, there were two schmuck guys, and I’m getting them mixed up. Here’s how I recall it: There was a guy named Robbie who was aiming for med school (or similar) who had knocked up Penny before the movie started, and then was pursuing Baby’s sister during the movie. Baby’s dad liked him because he was working his way towards med school, until he found out he was the one who “got Penny in trouble” and then he got mad and took back the money he was going to give him for med school. Then there was a different guy whose name I forget, who was the son of the hotel owner, who was studying something like hotel management (not as impressive to Baby’s dad) and who was pursuing Baby.

And yeah, looks like you’re right—Robbie is the one who gives Baby the Ayn Rand book, but its the other guy who is actually trying to be Baby’s suitor. I think Baby’s suitor is the one who acts all power-trippy towards Johnny throughout the movie, and pushes Johnny to do the Pachenga at the end of the movie, which is apparently a lame dance, although I don’t know it.

Comment #30: geogami  on  12/05  at  06:30 PM

I love, love, love this movie.  I took a lot of dance lessons as a kid (late 80s to mid 90s) so my parents let me see this when I was pretty young - maybe 10 or so?  Needless to say I had seen it many many times before I really understood the class stuff, the sex stuff, the abortion stuff, even the Jewish stuff.

I always interpreted that last dance as a goodbye, last hurrah, whatever.  Johnny literally leads the dance kids from the back of the ballroom into the center, which is a little heavy-handed but remember: Dirty Dancing was a small independent film that turned into a hit.  Also if you watch closely in that last dance scene, there are two older women who are dancing together.

I will happily go see pretty much any dance movie that comes out (I saw “Burlesque” this weekend, for goodness sake) but Dirty Dancing will always have a special place in my heart.  We could use more female leads like Baby.

Comment #31: LauraB  on  12/05  at  08:53 PM

Lee, Julie Klausner has an essay out somewhere about the Jewishness of the film, which is interesting.  I didn’t comment on it, because that’s not under my non-Jewish umbrella.  Also, this post was long enough.  But, in sum, I think you’re right.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/05  at  10:59 PM

I love love love this movie too!  I first saw it ten years ago as a pretty immature teenager, and just wrote it off as “chick flick”… then saw it again recently and was blown away by it for all the reasons you and other commenters have pointed out.  Its aesthetics (most of the way through) and social politics come together in a way that I found pretty inseparably awesome.  Afterwards, the housemate I watched it with turned round and said something like “Wow, why don’t people make feminist movies any more?”

My take on the ending is something like: I feel either the writer couldn’t find the perfect ending, or the studio weren’t happy with the more cynical/honest ending that it would have been; so instead, she made it so over-the-top and fairy-tale that no-one watching carefully could just take it in their stride as the actual ending.  There’s a specific moment where it shifts, almost jarringly, like the cheesy key change in an 80’s pop song — I think it’s where Swayze comes back into the building? — and from there I feel it’s like a dream sequence, or something.  We’re supposed to just enjoy it as a fantasy and imagine another, real ending that we’re not seeing.

…or at least, that’s what I like to tell myself, because otherwise I’d have to agree that yes, it’s a real let-down of an ending.  I still don’t think it quite works, but the dream-sequence way works a bit better for me than the literal reading.

Comment #33: Peter  on  12/06  at  02:08 AM

oh oops, I see that #13 made the same suggestion about the ending and I somehow missed that on my first read-through!  but since we arrived at the idea independently, I guess that strengthens the idea that it might have been the intended interpretation? grin

Comment #34: Peter  on  12/06  at  02:26 AM

I was in middle school when this movie came out and loved it for the dancing and music. I think most 13 year olds didn’t notice the inconsistencies in the music you did. But, anyone who calls it innocent was not paying attention. The abortion, the near rape, the dirty dancing, and it was one of the first movies that turned me on sexually. The scene when Baby seduces Johnny after their dance gig…yowza. Still does it for me.

Comment #35: Olivia  on  12/06  at  12:35 PM

Since you bring up the movie, I wonder how “When Harry Met Sally” would fair in a re-watch.  Sure the movie is a celebration of the Nice Guy(TM) ... I know I liked it a bit too much in my Nice Guy(TM) phase ... but one thing that has always struck me about “When Harry Met Sally” is how much it undercuts the fairy-tale genesis of a romance trope found in (well) fairy tales and rom-coms.

Am I over-analyzing the movie if I take all those cute “how we met” stories to be foils for how Harry and Sally “met”?  Am I reading too much into the movie if I posit that a key message of the movie is that it’s just as good, if not better, for a long-term relationship to be based in something as solid as friendship as being based in “well, it was so cute how we met ... and then he swept me off his feet ...”?  “When Harry Met Sally” hardly counts as a “feminist” movie, but I actually think part of its message is to undermine some very anti-feminist conceptions of how relationships should form and what ways relationships should form are considered socially acceptable.

Comment #36: DAS  on  12/06  at  04:00 PM

the near rape

Can you remind me what that was? I can’t seem to recall it at the moment. I do remember that Baby’s sister went to lose her virginity with Robbie and walked in on him having sex with another woman.

Am I reading too much into the movie if I posit that a key message of the movie is that it’s just as good, if not better, for a long-term relationship to be based in something as solid as friendship as being based in “well, it was so cute how we met ... and then he swept me off his feet ...”?

I actually remember some of the old couple’s how we met stories being fairly unusual and involving long acquaintanceships or long gaps in time, just like Harry and Sally, and others that didn’t. I think they got a fairly diverse group of stories, but I always thought it was kind of boring filler for a not very good movie….

Comment #37: geogami  on  12/06  at  07:41 PM

It was a dance musical rather than a singing musical, but a musical nonetheless. i always expect a different kind of storytelling, and the need for a different kind of suspension of disbelief with musicals.

Comment #38: ttintagel  on  12/06  at  10:30 PM

I missed all of the heavy stuff when I saw the movie in the theater at the time.  But, from memory, isn’t Patrick Swayze essentially a Manic Pixie Dream Boy?  He teaches the bored and drifting protagonist how to love life.

Comment #39: FlipYrWhig  on  12/07  at  03:55 PM

@39: I’d say that’s a fair cop.

Comment #40: helen w. h.  on  12/07  at  06:02 PM

Doesn’t the Fountainhead have a rape sequence in it?

At the evening dance—just before Baby finds Penny crying and brings Johnny to help her—Baby’s sister comes storming back out of the woods, clearly furious with Robbie who is following and apologizing. The implication is definitely that he tried to “go too far” with her—so yeah, The Fountainhead and its rape scene is extra apropos-awesome.

One of my favorite parts of this movie is actually in the cheesy tacked-on ending, when Johnny introduces Baby as his partner for the final dance and gives his little speech about her. He says something to the effect that she’s shown him how to be a better person. I can’t think of a single other instance in any movie I’ve ever seen where a male character explicitly says that he sees a female character as a role model.

Comment #41: kristin  on  12/07  at  07:53 PM

Oh, also loving the moments where Jerry Orbach is glowering like death as Johnny dances with Baby and his wife tells him to sit down and shut up—guarding her daughter’s moment, her independence to make choices Daddy disapproves of.

And the knowing expressions on Jennifer Grey’s face —gad, this movie is just full of these tiny little nuggets of female agency that make me realize how much other movies (better movies? yeah, probably) are lacking. I agree with Amanda that politics =/= art, but I feel like even though the larger framework is artistically flawed, the way these tiny glances and brief moments are captured qualifies as art in itself.

I think I’ve said already that cats are one of my basic measurements of who’s Good People. If someone actively dislikes cats (not lukewarm about them but dislikes them) I don’t trust ‘em. The other metric I have is Dirty Dancing. They don’t have to *love* the movie but if they absolutely positively cannot grasp why a woman *would* love it, I don’t trust ‘em. Reviews of this movie wherever they can be found are gobsmackingly full of idiot misogyny including one guy who seriously opined that it was unrealistic because no one would have fallen for a girl as “unattractive” as Jennifer Grey. So it’s a great way to weed out the clueless.

Comment #42: kristin  on  12/07  at  08:09 PM

At the evening dance—just before Baby finds Penny crying and brings Johnny to help her—Baby’s sister comes storming back out of the woods, clearly furious with Robbie who is following and apologizing. The implication is definitely that he tried to “go too far” with her—so yeah, The Fountainhead and its rape scene is extra apropos-awesome.

Oh, why don’t I remember that? And that’s odd, because it sounds like that must have been before Baby’s sister decided to lose her virginity to Robbie after all. But since she found out he was a sleazeball before it was too late, I guess the message overall isn’t bad.

Comment #43: geogami  on  12/07  at  09:14 PM

And that’s odd, because it sounds like that must have been before Baby’s sister decided to lose her virginity to Robbie after all.

As I remember it, she talks like “going all the way” was a foregone conclusion—you have to put out at some point. So you might as well go ahead and do it and get it over with, as long as you’ve got hold of a guy who’s marriage material. At the time being “pushy” (rapey) was just what guys did, amirite? Whereas cheating made him definite not-marriage-material scum.

I think I remember that there was cut material surrounding the coming-out-of-the-forest scene that in context would have made the rapiness of it way more obvious, but for one reason or another it was left out of the final film and the result is that it’s almost a throwaway moment, practically not even there. Not surprising that you don’t remember it.

Comment #44: kristin  on  12/07  at  09:58 PM
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