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Next entry: Consent, Hollywood, and sperm donation Previous entry: BlogHer10 pics, swag, vendors—and an interesting contrast to Netroots Nation

9/11 Was The End Of Irony…And The First Amendment

ParanoiaReligion

Manhattan is a place where millions of people live.  They work there, they date there, they eat there, they get married there, they raise children there - and they worship there.  This is not the function of meat-eaters trying to stick it to vegetarians (and vice versa), or fertile people flaunting their properly functioning reproductive systems to the infertile.  It is the function of people living in a place and participating in the things that people do as functional human beings.

And that’s what makes this piece so heart wrenching to read.  The Washington Post found the Muslim daughter of a 9/11 victim, and gave her space in the paper to oppose the Cordoba House…by declaring that some ill-defined space around Ground Zero should be free from religion altogether.

From the first memorial ceremonies I attended at Ground Zero, I have always been moved by the site; it means something to be close to where my mother may be buried, it brings some peace. That is why the prospect of a mosque near Ground Zero—or a church or a synagogue or any religious or nationalistic monument or symbol—troubles me.

[...]

But a mosque nearby—even a proposed one—is already transforming the site from a sacred ground for reflection, so desperately needed by the families who lost loved ones, to a battleground for religious and political ideologies. So many people from different nationalities and religions were killed that day. This site should be a neutral place for all to come in peace and remember. I believe my mother would have thought so as well.

With all due respect, Ground Zero was a battleground for religious and political ideologies before 9/11, on 9/11, and most certainly after 9/11.  The idea that pretending Islam (or, in fact, the conflicts and ideologies that define and guide our world) doesn’t exist for some undisclosed number of blocks around Ground Zero is not just naive beyond belief.  If applied consistently, it would require a fundamental remaking of one of the most densely populated areas in America for blocks, perhaps miles. 

There are dozens of churches within blocks of Ground Zero.  There are a handful of synagogues, and a single mosque.  Before Cordoba House was announced, there was no controversy over any of these places.  The normal tapestry of American life weaves houses of worship in next to McDonald’s and CVS and Starbucks.  There were no religious wars, no claim that St. Peter’s Catholic Church was an attempt to consecrate Ground Zero as a place in the Catholic faith, or that Beth Din Zidek was a Zionist base to raise ire against Muslims in America.  It was only when Muslims, Muslims who have made it a clear and consistent point to preach tolerance and opposition to terrorism, attempted to build something new that Ground Zero because a sacred space from which all mention of controversy should be excised. 

Whatever this woman’s pain, it doesn’t justify turning some broad area around Ground Zero into a place where Americans can no longer participate in the fundamental freedoms that make this country what it is, no matter the discomfort it might cause.  If a Methodist church wants to hold a prayer vigil at Ground Zero, they should.  If a Jewish congregation wants to remember September 11th at Shabbat, they should.  And if a group of Muslims wants to take open real estate a few blocks away and build a center for people of their faith - and all faiths - to come and be together, then every single fiber of this country’s philosophical underpinnings should support them in that.

Otherwise, it’s time to start bulldozing some churches.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 09:21 AM • (44) Comments

Not only churches—apparently this woman believes there should be no “nationalistic” symbols near the site.  Sort of makes you wonder what would be allowable, if anything.

Just wrongheaded, sorry.  Just as it was wrongheaded to declare that the former site of the Twin Towers would remain forever barren, but apparently that has been settled.

Comment #1: Dr. Psycho  on  08/08  at  10:22 AM

I can’t figure out why it isn’t obvious to everyone that the people who are So Upset! about this Muslim cultural center are all either cynical manipulators trying to stir up the proles for their own political benefit or naive fools being used by those same cynical manipulators…

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  08/08  at  10:42 AM

Don’t tell anyone there’s a strip club two blocks away.  Or that there’s a Muslim place of prayer in the Pentagon!

But if religious liberty is going to be infringed, I like Tbogg’s (not serious, it is Tbogg after all) suggestion that no Catholic churches should be built within 200 yards of any school, daycare, or playground.

Comment #3: 3letterjon  on  08/08  at  11:07 AM

So, would this mean we have to move Wall St., with its immense amount of pro-capitalist ideology and exuberant symbols of it spread everywhere?

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/08  at  11:24 AM

“Otherwise, it’s time to start bulldozing some churches. “

Bulldoze churches? What a great idea! How soon can we start and can we bulldoze all of them?

Comment #5: Colorado Dave  on  08/08  at  11:34 AM

The thing is, there already IS a church there, St. Paul’s Chapel, where you can buy all the miniature Ground Zero crosses you could possibly want.

Comment #6: Matt N.  on  08/08  at  11:37 AM

I like the jib of her thoughts—while the bombings were definitely political acts for the terrorists, for the victims and their families, they were intensely personal acts.  They were not religious acts for the victims.

Instead, a cordon saintaire where the people are remembered (for me, Rob Lenoir and Donna Bernearts were two people I knew who died there) for who they are.

But that is unrealistic.

Comment #7: James  on  08/08  at  11:59 AM

Considering the symbolism of naming the place Cordoba House, I think it’s rather appropriate to have it there.

Comment #8: tristanheydt  on  08/08  at  12:50 PM

Strange that nobody has complained about the presence of a strip club on this “sacred ground”.

Comment #9: DaveL  on  08/08  at  01:29 PM

Don’t tell anyone there’s a strip club two blocks away.

Seriously, this is New York City. Every form of human experience is crunched into a 22.7 square mile space. No matter where you are in Manhattan, you will always be two blocks away from a hundred things you might disapprove of. It’s hard to understand just how magnificent it is without visiting.

Comment #10: BABH  on  08/08  at  02:20 PM

One of the things that is heartening about this whole fiasco is that as far as I can tell, the only people complaining about this don’t even live in fucken New York City. Listen up you hateful fuckbags: we New Yorkers’ll be the ones to decide what the fuck to do in our own motherfucken city. Now fuck off.

Comment #11: PhysioProf  on  08/08  at  02:25 PM

You know how an embassy is considered part of whatever country it is, even if it’s entirely within the borders of the U.S.? For these people I can only assume the WTC is like that, a little patch of Real America™ in Manhattan.

Just like how Giuliani was America’s Mayor despite (because of?) apparently hating New York.

Comment #12: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/08  at  02:36 PM

I can’t help thinking of Samantha Geimer’s response to the attempt to extradite Roman Polanski.  She wants the shitstorm to stop.

And my niece, who, when her mother starts acting out, wants to shush anyone else around who might disagree, just to keep the peace.

Hostage behavior, and the terrorists/bullies have won.

Comment #13: oldfeminist  on  08/08  at  02:37 PM

Hershele,

Does that make a Hooters the Real America Embassy to the City of New York?  I just can’t see giving diplomatic immunity to someone in orange shorts, but it would probably be good for tips.

Comment #14: 3letterjon  on  08/08  at  02:57 PM

it’s time to start bulldozing some churches.

ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease…

Comment #15: elmo  on  08/08  at  04:36 PM

It seems fairly obvious that what gets built on Manhatten should be the decision of its legal owners, the Dutch.  Or the Lenape if they didn’t keep the receipt.

Comment #16: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/08  at  04:38 PM

There was also a small church that was destroyed during the September 11th attacks when it was buried under the rubble of the collapsing towers. To not rebuild it at or near its former site would be an insult.

Every form of human experience is crunched into a 22.7 square mile space. No matter where you are in Manhattan, you will always be two blocks away from a hundred things you might disapprove of.

Seriously. 100 times this. How is it that no one understands this simple fact? The Burlington Coat Factor building was not public property. It isn’t overlooking Ground Zero. It’s a matter of local government zoning. In NYC, people are in such close proximity that if you try to throw a fit over each and every institution that opens within 2 blocks of you, you’ll go crazy.

Comment #17: Tyro  on  08/08  at  05:09 PM

I can drive bulldozers and don’t have anything going on next weekend…

Comment #18: paleotectonics  on  08/08  at  06:35 PM

Physioprof, where does Giuliani live? I’m confused.  What about the 25% of Manhattanites and 75% of Staten Islanders who expressed opposition to the building when asked—isn’t it likely that some of them are actively complaining? I’d love to have a safe space where nobody believed the bullshit, but I don’t think there is one.

Comment #19: Josh  on  08/08  at  08:14 PM

Staten Islanders don’t really live in New York, except technically. Culturally it’s basically northern New Jersey.

Comment #20: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/08  at  08:18 PM

“where you can buy all the miniature Ground Zero crosses you could possibly want.”

I remember that after the towers fell, they found all these steel “crosses” in the rubble and they used that as a symbol from God.  The cross is a simple shape and there were thousands of them when a steel skyscraper is contructed.  Nothing special.

Comment #21: Albert Cirrus  on  08/08  at  08:27 PM

As I was trying to explain to my dear husband (who, because he has read the Koran, albeit in translation) keeps saying, “but this religion does want to kill people…”) tolerance is really really hard.  And so is “Freedom of Religion.”  Since it’s now open season on constitutional amendments, I would like to change things to “Freedom FROM Religion,” but if that’s not going to happen then I feel I have to say, if any religion can build in New York, then all religions can build in New York—anywhere in New York.

Comment #22: elisabeth51  on  08/08  at  08:30 PM

Can we please get rid of lonnie now?

Comment #23: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/08  at  10:19 PM

@23

Not true.  Sure, we liberals like Islam because the GLA is the best faction in Command & Conquer: Generals, but we also appreciate the loose medieval Protestantism of the Haven faction in Heroes of Might & Magic, or the neo-Pagan Druid class in AD&D;(3rd edition and up).

Comment #24: Byronic Commando  on  08/08  at  10:24 PM

Tyro:  The Greek Orthodox church you refer to was rebuilt and it currently in use by its congregation.

As to other rebuilding (‘cause I keep hearing wingers complain that the WTC hasn’t been rebuilt yet):
The Liberty Tower (1 WTC) is up to 32 floors. And a number of other buildings are also in the starting stages of construction.  For the wingers who have no idea of the time it takes to build a sky scraper… first you have prepare the site (like build a wall around the whole site to keep out the Hudson River and other smaller rivers that run through the area), anchor the buildings into the bedrock (like for 4 or 5 levels down) and then you start to build up from ground level.

Comment #25: PurpleGirl  on  08/08  at  10:26 PM

The Greek Orthodox church you refer to was rebuilt and it currently in use by its congregation.

Actually, last I read, it wasn’t: like most of ground zero construction, it’s stuck in a bureaucratic mess—which, of course, is being exploited by Fox to claim, “they’re letting a mosque get built, but a church isn’t allowed to be build there!”. But the point being that the author of the original Op-Ed has this naive idea that the area should be “free” of all sorts of things that make her uncomfortable, when in fact those very things (churches, nationalistic symbols, etc.), have always been part of lower Manhattan in general and the world trade center area in particular: not just before september 11th, but before there even was a world trade center.

Comment #26: Tyro  on  08/08  at  11:21 PM

Tyro: my bad. I should have researched Church of St. Nicholas better. They do have a financial agreement in place with the Port Authority of NY & NJ and J.P. Morgan Chase.

Comment #27: PurpleGirl  on  08/09  at  12:28 AM

the only religion liberals like is Islam (post 9/11/01).

Personally, I tend to go for the trifecta of Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism early on, and use the ability to build missionaries to (i) increase my income through the special buildings Great Prophets give you, (ii) use this income to plant and sustain many new cities earlier than other civilizations, and (iii) stabilize the world and cut down on other civilizations fighting by trying to ensure everybody is converted to Buddhism.

Islam comes a bit too late to be all that useful.

Comment #28: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/09  at  01:50 AM

Goddamn it, now I need to get my Civ 4 discs back. Fuck you, PiotR.

Comment #29: StarStorm  on  08/09  at  03:47 AM

While we’re at it, I suppose the Holocaust Museum in Battery Park is right out…

Comment #30: paul  on  08/09  at  12:28 PM

tell them to build the house of hate somewhere else.

Comment #23: lonnie

Ah, sweet, sweet irony.

Comment #31: cynickal  on  08/09  at  12:53 PM

tell them to build the house of hate somewhere else.

I’m not sure what you meant to convey, Lonnie (except I totally am) but all I pictured was an IHOP with angry faces on the pancakes.

And IMO, the “Yeah, let’s totes bulldoze all the churches, please please” stuff is just as shitty to say as Lonnie’s crap. I’m fairly certain you all know that not every Christian is a fundie bible-thumping right wing asshole, and thus not every church of varying Christian denominations is a boarding house for such behavior. Even as a joke, it kind of falls flat if what we’re trying to go up against is a generalized disdain toward and desired elimination of Muslim houses of worship and other such things.

Comment #32: Alison  on  08/09  at  03:44 PM

I’m fairly certain you all know that not every Christian is a fundie bible-thumping right wing asshole, and thus not every church of varying Christian denominations is a boarding house for such behavior.
Comment 33—Alison

Then surely bulldozing churches is exactly as reasonable as (pre-emptively) bulldozing a mosque, or a building you think is a mosque. Unless you’re trying to assert that Muslims are all terrorists and every mosque is a boarding house for such behavior.

Comment #33: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/09  at  04:15 PM

Uhh…where did I say that? I said, if what we here are wanting to argue against is the bullshit idea that all Muslims are terrorists, then making even jokey statements about bulldozing every Christian church is also a bad thing. I said it’s “just as shitty to say as Lonnie’s crap” meaning that I think Lonnie’s statements were crap, wrong things to say, meaning I don’t agree with him. Where in the hell did you get the idea that I’m trying to assert that Muslims are all terrorists?

FFS.

Comment #34: Alison  on  08/09  at  04:18 PM

The “Let’s bulldoze all the churches” stuff wasn’t being done by anyone advocating an active agenda to suppress the religious liberties of Christians, Alison.  It’s called hyperbole, which is an offshoot of irony, and some even call it humor.  As a response to a call by a large group of people advocating an active agenda to suppress the religious liberties of Muslims, I think it’s a good use of that rhetorical device known as “reducto ad absurdum”, which means: You Are Dumb.

Comment #35: 3letterjon  on  08/09  at  04:27 PM

Yes, thank you. I know it was hyperbole, and I even know what the word means. As I said, “even as a joke” - because yes, I did know that the commenters were not running outside to jump on their…uh, insert-common-company-name-on-bulldozers here.

And yeah, if I was involved in an argument with some xenophobe asshole who said we should just outlaw the existence of Muslims in the US or something, I might make a similar joke to attempt to show them the stupidity of their statement (not that I think it would work). All I was saying here was that the repeated jokes seemed unnecessary. It reminds me a little of ironic white hipster racism, which annoys the everloving fuck out of me. And numerous people said something, and I just wanted to say maybe we can make the necessary arguments without dropping to that level.

If I’m being too wishy-washy for people, I can understand that. I used to be a hell of a lot snarkier regarding Christians in general, especially being a Jew who had been targeted for conversion many times in school and such. But I’m less so now for various reasons, in large part because my boyfriend is a Christian - a very progressive one, and also quite honestly one of the best people I’ve ever known, who is quite disgusted with the attitudes and behaviors of many people who also call themselves Christians. So I suppose knowing him and having a concrete example of a non-annoying, non-hateful Christian has made me less adversarial in general toward the religion, even while still being quite contemptuous of most of them. So perhaps I got a little too sensitive. C’est la vie.

Comment #36: Alison  on  08/09  at  04:45 PM

Even us non-Christians understand the value of forgiveness.  So, c’est la vie right back atcha.  (And c’est la vie is French for “Toughen up and let the callous people have some fun now and then.”)

Comment #37: 3letterjon  on  08/09  at  05:03 PM

As other people have mentioned, St. Paul’s Chapel is at Ground Zero, directly across the street from the WTC site, and has been an important memorial to the 9/11 dead.

Comment #38: Shaenon  on  08/09  at  05:26 PM

I would like to add one more vote for bulldozing churches, or perhaps we could just keep them as museums showing a time when most Americans worshipped the great sky fairy and went to war to defend his imaginary honor

Comment #39: John Rove  on  08/09  at  08:32 PM

The Liberty Tower (1 WTC) is up to 32 floors.

Thank you. I’m sick of people saying “there’s nothing there!”. 

It isn’t 2006. There’s a skyscraper rising there now and rising pretty quickly. IIRC it should be topped out by the end of 2011. It seems preparing the ground and building the super-duper re-enforced base was the difficult part.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  08/09  at  09:42 PM

the only religion liberals like is Islam (post 9/11/01)

Actually, I think those brands of Islam starting with Saudi Wahabbism and going rightward (which is a small minority of Islam) is probably the most dangerous religion in the world right now.

This has nothing to do with anything inherent in Islam, though. It has a hell of a lot to do with historical forces. If you had asked me in the 1930s which religion was the most dangerous, I would have said right wing Roman Catholicism and Shintoism. If you had asked me in the 16th or 17th Centuries, I would have had said the more Calvinist brands of Protestantism.

Comment #41: Ben D.  on  08/09  at  09:49 PM

There’s a skyscraper rising there now and rising pretty quickly.
Comment 41—Ben D.

Um, really? Because I am typing this while sitting at a window overlooking the site; I think I’d notice a 300-foot-and-growing building.

Mind, I’m not arguing with the claim that They intend to build something there, only that there’s something there now that I can see.

Also, Shintoism? Japanese nationalism and national ambitions may have been dangerous, though I don’t know if it was obvious to typical Americans. But to blame Shintoism is like ... well, like blaming all of Islam for al-Qaeda. Arguably the Japanese actions in WWII were done in the name of Shinto, but that was pretty much just a label, just like bushidō.

Comment #42: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/10  at  01:35 PM

Feh.

What I couldn’t see from the window, I was able to see from the fucking street. In my defense, all I technically said, specifically, was that I couldn’t see it from the window. The church was in the way.

Rest of my comment stands.

Comment #43: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/10  at  08:41 PM
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