I really feel I must say:

You don’t abort a foetus. You abort a pregnancy.

.

Press charges against who exactly? The hospital? The family? The girl?

This is similar to the case of a 14 year old Polish girl who was raped by a classmate and even though the abortion was allowed by Polish law when the young girl and her mother got to the hospital for the procedure there was a priest there who’d already convinced the doctor not to let it happen.  They tried again later at an, at first, undisclosed location but the pro-life priest and his minions found out about it and they showed up and attacked the girl. It’s venomous and it’s bat shit insane how they can get away with this but it goes to show that they care nothing about born people, women especially, and only want to exert control.

Her family only discovered she was pregnant when they took her to the doctor because she seemed sick.

This statement concerns me because it doesn’t state the obvious:  Did her parents know she was raped?  Likely, they would not have or else they would have put forced sex + sickness together to equal pregnancy. . .  but I don’t give anyone the benefit of the doubt anymore.

I love how, in some way,  rape and incest are more justifiable by people, than abortion.

This statement concerns me because it doesn’t state the obvious:  Did her parents know she was raped?

She was raped by her uncle in the home while her parents were out.  You know, exactly the kind of situation where the girl is told to keep her mouth shut or she’ll be in big trouble.

When the pregnancy was discovered, the guy took off and (as far as I know) has not been found.

Press charges against who exactly? The hospital? The family? The girl?

No kidding.  Is murder even something where there is a question of pressing charges?  It’s not like breaking a neighbor’s window with a baseball, is it?  It would be laughable if there weren’t a little girl’s health at stake.

I e-mailed a Romanian feminist group which was taking an interest in the girl’s tragedy to offer my help if the girl flew to the UK. As Romania is part of the EU, her government couldn’t legally have prevented her from leaving the country, and in the UK she could certainly have got an abortion.

I’m fairly sure it’s the fact that the girl had this legal escapehatch that forced her government to capitulate, and that makes me extremely pleased.

Less impressed with the pro-life nutter Josephine Quintavalle (I am not making this name up) who commented “It is not going to help her deal with the trauma of rape” - as if forcing the girl to have a baby would help her! You can contact this particular nutter via .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

deep6, the girl might not have said anything until she turned up pregnant.  A lot of rapes go unreported, and I would guess that the rapes of very young girls are some of the least likely to go reported because it’s unfortunately very easy to manipulate a little girl into never saying anything (i. 

I’m reminded of the part in I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings, where Maya Angelou is raped by her stepfather at about the same age, and it’s only discovered when her mother finds physical evidence stashed under the bed.

I know many rapes go unreported.  My concern was that the parents would willfully ignore other signs the girl was raped, like in her behavior: personality, eating habits, cleaning habits, etc.  A child of that age doesn’t get raped and then just “go back to normal”.  There had to be some indicator besides physical illness months later that the parents could have picked up on - or maybe DID - that would have clued them in to what happened.  At the very least wouldn’t the girl have difficulty walking?  I really hope this wasn’t one of those scenarios where the parents suspected the uncle could have done something to the girl but didn’t act on it or try to talk to her because the uncle was out of the house, so the problem is out of the house and they can bury their heads in the sand.

Deep6, you’re making a lot of assumptions and you’re verging on becoming offensive.  Please stop.

I’ll also add to Mnemo’s post by recalling that my parents didn’t know the first thing about anything I was going through from about 11-14.

Whaa-?  I said I hope that’s not what happened, not that it is what happened.

When I was hurt, the first person I went and told was my mother.  I remember being so embarrassed I didn’t even understand how to explain what had happened.  Nothing ever happened to the girl who had hurt me, but we moved a few months later to a different state.  Problem solved.  This happens, mnem.  Personal experience.  Nothing in what I wrote is meant to contradict or offend.

This happens, mnem.  Personal experience.  Nothing in what I wrote is meant to contradict or offend.

My parents didn’t find out until they actually walked in on the abuse.

Personal experience.  Not everyone has the same one.  Get it?

So you’re upset because I wrote a comment based on my personal experiences which contradict your own?  Unfair and unreasonable.  I obviously don’t want to offend you but I’m really not sure how I did in the first place.

I understand the idea that there must have been SOME sign for the parents to know - it’s comforting because then OUR children won’t have to go through this trauma because WE will be more alert, but the truth is that each situation is unique and there are a LOT of children who are raped, suicidal, struggling with drugs or eating disorders, or other horrible things and the parents honestly don’t know. Maybe this girl’s parents dropped the ball, or maybe they didn’t - since we weren’t there and we’ll never know, I suggest we extend the benefit of the doubt that they are loving, responsible adults and there just weren’t any signs for them to pick up on. That does happen, and frequently, more’s the pity.

At the very least wouldn’t the girl have difficulty walking?

No.

Jesus.

So you’re upset because I wrote a comment based on my personal experiences which contradict your own?

I’m upset because you wrote a comment that assumed that her parents deliberately turned a blind eye to the fact she was being abused and that there are specific physical and psychological signs of abuse and rape that they were at best neglectful in not noticing.

Really, you have no idea why that would be offensive?

Despite a family history of “melancholy” (depression) spanning almost 100 years, my parents totally missed the fact that I was sliding into depression starting at puberty. They didn’t know that I was skipping school and forging notes from them in the 8th and 9th grades, they didn’t realize that I had dropped out of *the same highschool two of my sisters attended*, and they certainly didn’t know the first time I had (consentual, but not at all pleasant) sex.

Sometimes kids are good at appearing “normal”, and when they are prepared to put up a front and convince people that everything is ok it can be hella hard to see past that. My “normal” behaviour was all they saw from me, and so all that they expected to see. I have no doubt that rape victims could pull off the same mental state that I did. I’d actually be shocked if many of them couldn’t.

(also, not to get too personal, but Deep6 it sounds from the little you’ve said like your personal experience isn’t as comprable to this as you might think since it didn’t involve an immediate family member and all the angst/worry that would go along with “will they believe me or take uncle Joe’s side, he said they’d believe him, what if he’s right? Will I tear the family apart with this secret? Should I tell anyone if it means that no one will talk to me/love me anymore?”. There’s alot that goes on in people’s heads and the vast majority of it - imho- isn’t rational.)

No, actually, I didn’t say the parents did that.  I hoped they didn’t, because that is one of the worst kinds of scenarios and what I instinctively worry about first because that’s what happened to me.  But I understand now that it’s the idea of victim-blaming that bothered you, and that wasn’t clear in what you were writing before.

But I understand now that it’s the idea of victim-blaming that bothered you, and that wasn’t clear in what you were writing before.

Amanda said it more calmly than I could but, yes, that was what was bothering me so much.  It reminded me a little of some of the talk around the pedophile priest scandals where people were wondering why the parents didn’t know their kids were being molested.

Again, given the fact that the uncle promptly disappeared as soon as the pregnancy was discovered, I think it’s a stretch to assume the parents were deliberately ignoring what was going on.  You don’t have to up and vanish from the home if the other residents of the home knew what was going on.

I really feel I must say:

You don’t abort a foetus. You abort a pregnancy.

Indeed.  Thanks for pointing this out.  You kill the fetus.

Ah, after reading the brief, blunt trollings of mr. bob, i have seen the light! Teh Foetus is Lord! Eleven year olds SHOULD be forced to bear their own nieces and nephews. It’s all so clear to me now.

That’s right, One True Vegan.

Mr. Bob cares nothing for the actually story that the thread is about; a child being raped by her uncle.  As far as he and his ilk are concerned, little girls deserve to be raped by their male relatives for the crime of having been born female. 

How dare we all compare the very real violation and suffering of the rape victim to the non-existent suffering of a blob of cells that’s not even capable of feeling pain yet?  Mr. Bob and his pals reckon that she was destined to grow up and become a filthy slut, and that blob of cells was a potential (male, therefore more human) person, so it was much more worthy of our sympathies than any (female, therefore subhuman)  rape victim. 

Wake up, Bob, because this is where we differ:  feminists believe that women are human; pro-forced-birthers do not.  Simple as that.

No way is her body ready for pregnancy and delivery. I can’t comprehend the cruelty of the people who would force her to continue to carry and deliver. Offering to adopt it in this circumstance is completely useless.

It’s always the Intelligent Design nuts who think that just because a girl’s body can get pregnant, that therefore it’s totally healthy to carry it to term.

After all, puberty is like a switch right? One day, God flicks it to “On” and then you’re good to go the next morning to carry a baby for nine months without any bodily harm.

Fair enough, mnem.  Point taken, and I understand your concern.  And I’m sorry if anything I said jumped out at you as over the line - that wasn’t my intent.

How dare you mindless, knee-jerk liberals attribute to me your projections of my words and motives.  I simply responded to Rebecca’s concern over what she considers the proper direct object of the verb “to abort.”  I agreed with her and then pointed out that a correct verb to describe what is done to the fetus is “to kill.”

So many of you are so blinded by your rabid ideologies that you don’t bother to read text as actually written and immediately launch into spouting the propaganda you’re so used to stating.

You simply cannot draw any meaningful logical inferences about what I think about this case from my words stated in response to Rebecca.

For your information, I happen to be a survivor of sexual child abuse.  I did not call the Romanian girl a “slut,” nor did I even think of that word in connection with her.  Some of you need to look in the mirror and get honest with yourselves.  Apparently, you think she is a “slut” (a horrible accusation to throw at an 11-year-old girls) and you need to try to mask the expression of your subconscious thoughts by attributing such awful statements to others.

Grow the fuck up, already, you self-righteous, man-hating bigots!

What’s interesting is that—per the right wing folks— the 11 year old girl from Romania apparently *should* be forced to carry this pregnancy to term.  BUT…  the right wing nuts are all up in arms about the recent Supreme Court case that disallowed the death penalty for another man who raped a child.  <sigh>  So—the “pro-life” position is that raping a child is bad.  People who rape children should be killed.  As an added bonus, we can force the victimized child to give birth to another child???  No matter what risk to her physical or mental health?  I don’t get it.  Where’s the empathy?  Where’s the actual respect for life?

Bob, on the off chance you really are just a pedant, i’m sure we’re very sorry.  But boy oh boy did you look like a moralizing troll, just there.

As an added bonus, we can force the victimized child to give birth to another child???  No matter what risk to her physical or mental health?  I don’t get it.  Where’s the empathy?  Where’s the actual respect for life?

It all hinges on the potential that she will give birth to a male. 

You see, if we have to kill the man who raped her, we need to replace that man ass quickly as possible. 

If the child is a girl, well, c’est la vie.  You can’t win ‘em all…

Opoponax—I’d chuckle, but in that sort of instance it hurts too much….

So many of you are so blinded by your rabid ideologies that you don’t bother to read text as actually written and immediately launch into spouting the propaganda you’re so used to stating.

It’s propaganda to say that an 11-year-old girl shouldn’t be forced to bear her rapist’s child?

we need to replace that man ass quickly as possible

I know it may be a typo, but this suddenly brought to my mind those closeted-gay fundie wingnuts that appear on the news from time to time.

How dare you mindless, knee-jerk liberals attribute to me your projections of my words and motives.  I simply responded to Rebecca’s concern over what she considers the proper direct object of the verb “to abort.” I agreed with her and then pointed out that a correct verb to describe what is done to the fetus is “to kill.”

Okay, Bob.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and play along with this little game of yours in which you claim that you were just pointing out that the result of an abortion is that the fetus is no longer alive.  However, we, as feminists, already know this.  So what was the purpose of your pointing it out in your post?  I eagerly await your explanation, because even if you were just clarifying the point, you’re still the Prince of the Obvious, rather than a rabid woman-hating fundy.

So, you pick…violent hater, or just a dim bulb.  Get back to us and let us know which, kaythxbai.

Rest assured, Bob, this feminist doesn’t hate all men.  Just the ones who reek of misogyny, hostility, arrogance, and stupidity, and especially the ones who feel the need to explain abortion to women.  Do you really think it is necessary to do that?  If your answer is yes, the obvious conclusion is that you think all women are mind-numbingly stupid.  That would make you mind-numbingly stupid.  If your answer is no, the obvious conclusion is that you feel the need to interject the word “kill” (in italics yet) because you are a judgmental, arrogant, misogynistic creep.  Either way, it comes out badly for you.  At least you’ve got the grammar cop gig.

I think I’m going to start to a campaign to rename all cancer surgery “carcinomacide”, because that’s really the important aspect of what’s being done…

“Baby, I don’t hate men.  I just hate you.”—Ani diFranco.

Okay, Bob.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and play along with this little game of yours in which you claim that you were just pointing out that the result of an abortion is that the fetus is no longer alive.  However, we, as feminists, already know this.  So what was the purpose of your pointing it out in your post?  I eagerly await your explanation, because even if you were just clarifying the point, you’re still the Prince of the Obvious, rather than a rabid woman-hating fundy.

So, you pick…violent hater, or just a dim bulb.  Get back to us and let us know which, kaythxbai.

If you get Rebecca to explain herself in the same manner you are demanding of me, then I’ll consider it.  Until then, all you have are pathetic straw men.

Why are you people so afraid to admit the truth that the human fetus (or embryo) is killed?  That seems to be quite an inconvenient little truth in the whole matter.

Why are you people so afraid to admit the truth that the human fetus (or embryo) is killed?  That seems to be quite an inconvenient little truth in the whole matter.

Ah, yes, the “inconvenience” argument.  As in, “Well, it’s not that big a deal for an 11-year-old rape victim to be forced to carry her rapist’s child to term—it’s just an inconvenience for her to have to do it.”

Here’s the thing, Bob:  we have decided that the crime victim is more important than the fetus.  You may think the fetus is more important than the crime victim, but you’re not the 11-year-old child whose body will be involuntarily used as an incubator, are you?  You’re not even one of her parents, who agreed that their child was not psychologically prepared at the age of 11 to give birth to her rapist’s child.  You’re just some guy pontificating on the internet who is convinced he knows what’s better for this girl and her family than the girl herself and her family.

“There is a lot of debate around evolution in the scientific community, therefore it’s not proved”
“Hum, actually, debating about certain aspects of evolution isn’t the real issue, the empirical evidence that sustains it is”
“Ha! You’re afraid to admit the truth that evolution is a lie! Hahahahah I win at the internetz logics ROFL!!!!1!!!”

“Some 20 Christian Orthodox groups had threatened to press charges if the girl was allowed to abort the foetus.”

Surely they could only press charges if they were actually victims in this case? Her parents could press charges, or she could herself if she was older - but they won’t, since they’re clearly in favour of the abortion. These Orthodox groups have nothing to do with it - or am I missing something?

Why are you people so afraid to admit the truth that the human fetus (or embryo) is killed?  That seems to be quite an inconvenient little truth in the whole matter.

Jeez, speaking of straw men…. What indication has anyone given that they’re “afraid” to admit that? Could it be that it’s not being mentioned because it’s an obvious given? Don’t chalk up a “gotcha” for yourself just yet….

Don’t mind Bob.  He just stopped by to shriek that we’re all man-hating murderers, and then demand to be treated with civility in return.

I find it telling and suprisingly reassuring that the state sanctioned church did not want to force the birth. There are fringe religious groups everywhere, and they are dangerous, but not nearly as dangerous as the state sanctioned church could be.
I am glad that she will be able to move on with her and and hopefully the battle for her rights has not scarred her in such a way that she will be unable to live a full and happy life.

And then demand to be treated with civility in return.

And he was -  AFTER he called people here “you mindless, knee-jerk liberals” he gets responses like “Bob, on the off chance you really are just a pedant, “

No, Bob ain’t no pedant. He’s a feminist hating troll. He’s playing with the whole KILL semantic thing out of a deep hatred for women who refuse to give him and his godbag freak buddies control over their bodies.

And trust me - Bob and all the godbag gang ABSOLUTELY want this little girl to give birth. Right Bob? Rape and incest are NO reason for abortion, right? Once the man’s sacred seed is planted, it is God’s will.

Come on Bob, stop being so fucking coy. Admit it you are a right-winger, probably Catholic.

And of course Bob is not the only godbag who wants little girls to obey the godbag laws and have babies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/world/middleeast/29marriage.html?hp

I was raised in the Eastern Orthodox faith, and while I’m now an atheist, I found it to be generally a fairly mellow, reasonable religion. All the pomp and splendor of the Catholic Church, with none (or at least, few) of the utterly absurd anti-woman attitudes.

And then something like this comes along. *sigh*

Bitter Scribe,

I totally disagree. I was raised Eastern Orthodox and it sure as hell is anti-female. Women can’t even serve in the Altar area for God’s sake!!! Even the CATHOLICS allow women to serve at the Altar. You ever read the Churching prayers or the prayers said over a woman who has miscarried?? What about the readings of Paul at Orthodox weddings? I am just scratching the surface here…there is a treasure trove of anti-woman Orthodoxy to be had.