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Next entry: The appeal of fast food is about more than “fast” Previous entry: The true incivility

A third way to think about fast food

Food

Erik at LGM captures some of my growing discomfort with Mark Bittman's political approach to the question of improving national nutrition.  Bittman has taken to scolding people for being lazy more than looking at the underlying reasons people don't cook more.  I somewhat agreed with a rant he had a few months back about oatmeal, but in retrospect some of my concern is that liberals are too quick to seize on excuses that sound good---saying, for instance, that oatmeal at McDonald's is cheaper and easier than store oatmeal when it's objectively not---because they have the correct instinct not to assume the worst about people's motives when making food choices. It's a combination of over-reliance on a simplified version of rational actor theory and a rightful rejection of conservative assumptions that people's sufferering is a direct reflection of their lack of merit. But the problem is Bittman is erring too far in the other direction, and assuming that the reason people don't cook more is that they're just lazy and that a good scolding is what's going to get them on the other side of it. 

For instance, this critique of the common liberal arguments about why people eat more fast food than they should is a sound one:

This is just plain wrong. In fact it isn’t cheaper to eat highly processed food: a typical order for a family of four — for example, two Big Macs, a cheeseburger, six chicken McNuggets, two medium and two small fries, and two medium and two small sodas — costs, at the McDonald’s a hundred steps from where I write, about $28. (Judicious ordering of “Happy Meals” can reduce that to about $23 — and you get a few apple slices in addition to the fries!)

In general, despite extensive government subsidies, hyperprocessed food remains more expensive than food cooked at home. You can serve a roasted chicken with vegetables along with a simple salad and milk for about $14, and feed four or even six people. If that’s too much money, substitute a meal of rice and canned beans with bacon, green peppers and onions; it’s easily enough for four people and costs about $9. (Omitting the bacon, using dried beans, which are also lower in sodium, or substituting carrots for the peppers reduces the price further, of course.)

He points out that the "calorie needs" argument falls flat, because the problem now is an excess of calories in relation to other nutrition that we need, not a lack of them. Again, true, and I have to wonder if the people making the "calorie needs" argument are being flown in from the early-to-mid-20th century, when there really was a problem where people living in poverty were likelier to be underweight, whereas now they're liklier to be overweight than people who have more money. It's important to be cognizant of the flaws in these arguments, not only because it makes liberals sound stupid when they're trying to explain why people with low incomes aren't eating better, but also because, you know, having an argument is about more than winning.  The idea is that we legitimately want to improve this country and people's health outcomes.  If you're just trying to score points in an online debate, I guess stick with these bad arguments.  But by striving for better arguments and a better understanding of the issue, we get closer to reaching a solution.

The problem is that Bittman's response is to be a bit Pollyanna-ish and assume the entire reason people prefer to eat out instead of stay in and cook is that they don't appreciate the joys of cooking. Bittman still has one foot in the "policy" corner, so he's not a lost cause, but this emphasis on culture is worrisome, because if you start to become consumed by the idea that only cultural shifts will fix the problem, you start to overlook important policy and activism approaches that can do tremendous good. I think Erik makes some good points about why choosing to eat out instead of cook after a hard day's work is so appealing:

Bittman dismisses the idea that we don’t have time to cook because we spend an average of 90 minutes today watching TV. But if you are working 2 jobs or are depressed or are stressed out by your troubles, watching some TV after a long, hard day is simply more enjoyable than cooking. Even after I get home from the office, and my job is far less difficult than blue-collar or service labor, I usually don’t want to spend 90 minutes cooking. I want a quick meal, a beer, and a baseball game.

But he falls into the liberal trap of trying to juice up argument by not admitting to any real weakness in the human spirit that causes you to order pizza instead of make a sandwich. It's not just that after a hard day's work, you want a quick meal! It's that you want a greasy meal that is designed to hit all your pleasure centers.  It's that you work really hard and experience very little pleasure, and so the cheap thrill of fattening food is comforting.  It's no surprise to me that people who need more eat more comfort food.  They don't call it "comfort food" for nothing. I'll add that people often overeat in part because they go hungry; if there's big gaps in your income where you don't have enough money for food for days at a time, when you do get that money, you're going to do the human thing and buy yourself something high calorie and overeat the hell out of it. That's one reason that nutrition advice aimed at the more comfortable suggests small snacks throughout the day---if you eat when you have low blood sugar, you are pretty much guaranteed to overeat. 

Few people want to talk about this because there's no obvious fix for the problem. Bittman chooses to pretend that the solution is a cultural shift where we agree that cooking and eating home-cooked meals is more satisfying than gorging on restaurant food---and it is, for those of us who have lives that have enough pleasures and stress relief that the temptation to gorge on comfort food is muted. But his solution to enjoy cooking more is probably going to elide a lot of people, for the reasons Erik cites plus the fact that fast food rushes your pleasure centers in your brain more rapidly than pretty much anything but probably mind-altering substances.  (Sex is, I have to point out, more work and is more time-consuming. TV is less sensual.) But more liberal sorts like Erik breeze past the problem of "fast food is being applied to stress because it's designed to set off all sorts of pleasure centers", I think in part because it seems like it undermines the "rational actor" model that would allow us to create policy solutions to the problem.

But I really don't think it does. I think a huge part of America's problems is that we, as a culture, are suspicious of pleasure. We talk around it, at best. We refuse to admit some of our baser pleasures, which I think is one reason we also tend to over-indulge them at the expense of our health. If we do admit that they're a factor, we pull a Bittman, and assume that other people who indulge are just simply weaker or haven't been properly educated. But if we accept that fast food is eaten a lot because a lot of people feel it's a treat, and they have legitimate needs to treat themselves and few other options, I think we can start to have a real conversation about this. I want to offer a third way of looking at this: maybe it's that people who have access to more and more diverse treats (and the time to enjoy them) eat less fast food?  Obviously, money plays a big role in this, but it's also worth pointing out that people from similar backgrounds and income brackets are less likely to be fat if they live in more interesting places with more shit to do. Bittman and Erik are both halfway there to saying that eating is a form of entertainment. For people who may not have a lot of entertainment options, fast food may loom larger in their lives as a source of pleasure. If we want to counter the health effects of that, we need to start thinking in terms of genuinely prioritizing entertainment in our culture, and trying to find ways to alleviate stress and boredom for everyone, not just those who have the money (or the lifestyle---we not-rich but childless folks have similar privileges to people with more money than us because we have more time) to pay for more intersting shit to do than just eat cheap but fun food. 

Of course, we also need to make it our first priority to restructure agriculture subsidies so that crappy fast food isn't a cheap form of entertainment.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:14 PM • (125) Comments

There’s also the overeat on schedule—I work for a living so the times when I get to eat (and cook!) are restricted.  My physician would prefer that I eat more, smaller meals (he’s suggested six small meals distributed through the day) but instead I’m in the minimal breakfast, quick lunch-at-the-desk, big dinner mode.

I do usually try to avoid the fast food (though the lunches are sometimes tough for that) by cooking several meals on a Sunday and re-heating them through the week, but there are days when I don’t want to eat what I cooked, simply because it isn’t appealing at the moment. 

I recognize that I’m much much better off than others—and I do my best to work around these issues.  A family with working parent(s), particularly if they have multi jobs and/or long hours, I can understand the exhaustion.  The answers are not simple ones, either.

Comment #1: James  on  09/27  at  05:29 PM

Sex is, I have to point out, more work and is more time-consuming.

I’ll also note that for many, eating is a surrogate for sex…

Comment #2: James  on  09/27  at  05:32 PM

Again, true, and I have to wonder if the people making the “calorie needs” argument are being flown in from the early-to-mid-20th century, when there really was a problem where people living in poverty were likelier to be underweight, whereas now they’re liklier to be overweight than people who have more money.

Some of them probably have parents or themselves are of the age or come from regions of the world where that form of poverty is still within their living memory or still existent.  Namely, everyone in my grandmother’s generation*, my older aunts/uncles**, and my father**.


* Born in the teens of the 20th century in China

** Born between early ‘30s till early ‘50s in China.

Comment #3: exholt  on  09/27  at  05:45 PM

I don’t think that it can be understated that cooking is work, when we go to restaurants we pay someone to do it, when we buy fast or processed food we’re paying someone with giant cooking machines to do it, and when people used to eat at home there was a person whose job it was to cook and their wages were built into the families wages.

I cook at home, a lot, and it’s because I moved so my job was an 8 minute walk from my house.  If I still had a 40 min commute past approx. 100 fast food restaurants, I would do that instead, sometimes I walk home, get in the car and go and buy food, because it’s too much mental work to have all of the necessary ingredients in the house, decide what to cook, and stand around and chop, stir, and heat things. 

If we want recreate the amount of cooking people used to do at home, we’re going to have to recreate the patterns of work they do outside of home.  So a family would have to be able to earn a living wage in 40 hours of work a week, whether with one employed member or two, and single people are going to have to be able to earn a living wage in 20 hours of work a week.  And then we would have time to commit to things that would make us healthier, but even then some people wouldn’t, and that’s okay too, because being adult means you get to do what you want.

Comment #4: hideandseek  on  09/27  at  05:53 PM

come from regions of the world where that form of poverty is still within their living memory

My father only recently admitted that there were times when he left the dinner table hungry as a child, this was during the Depression in Northern California, and I’m sure there are some here who have similar tales.

Comment #5: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/27  at  06:25 PM

For people who may not have a lot of entertainment options, fast food may loom larger in their lives as a source of pleasure.

You make a great point here, one that strikes me as truly original.  I intend to bring it up in conversation.

I hope this major thrust of your piece doesn’t get lost in the 200-comment food fight (ha!) that typically follows a food post.

Comment #6: Cris (without an H)  on  09/27  at  06:29 PM

My father only recently admitted that there were times when he left the dinner table hungry as a child, this was during the Depression in Northern California, and I’m sure there are some here who have similar tales.

From Clio’s perspective, the Great Depression is a recent event….not something that happened a long time ago.

Comment #7: exholt  on  09/27  at  07:13 PM

I’ll also note that for many, eating is a surrogate for sex…

Not to mention the fact that sometimes, if you do enough of the former, you lose the option of substituting the latter. Don’t ask me how I know.

@4: Yeah, cooking has become more like an expensive and time-consuming hobby than a routine part of life. It’s hard for the average working stiff to compete with the flavor-industrial complex, especially the way wages have fallen and free time has become more scarce. I do it, but only because I enjoy it as a hobby. My friends who aren’t as fussy about flavor think I’m crazy to spend so much time on food.

Comment #8: Flora  on  09/27  at  08:28 PM

The first point you quote isn’t actually all that sound.  Most lower income families of four aren’t spending anywhere near $28 (or even $23) to eat at McDonald’s.  They’re ordering McDoubles and small fries off the dollar menu and drinking free glasses of water.

Hell, I worked part-time at McDonald’s throughout high school and college and the average order rarely got anywhere near $30 unless it was a group of 6 or more people.

Comment #9: dead souls  on  09/27  at  08:34 PM

Cooking can be done cheaply and easily- if you prepare a head of time.  If you have a crock pot, and throw stuff together the night before, or the morning of, you have dinner.  Of course, that means you have to have a) consistent schedule (I dare you to find anyone in the service industry that has that) b) food close enough to throw together, and c) a crock pot.

Oh, you also have to have the skills (and ability) to organize a head of time grocery shopping and preparation. And there is a reason there are five million books at Barnes and Noble on how to get organized- it is a skill.  And our lives, particularly service industry lives, are not set up to assist with learning that skill.  And it’s a skill that takes a lot of up-front time, and is fighting how are brains are wired in regards to effort and reward.

Systematic problems are not solved by individual solutions.

Comment #10: Antigone  on  09/27  at  08:39 PM

Oh, and one more thing:

I end up eating out a lot more than I should, and here’s the simple reason: what I want depends on what mood I am in at the end of the day.  It’s not just “I’m stressed, I want greasy food” or “I’m in pain, give me chocolate” although that does figure in.  But, say I want chicken one afternoon.  If I made beef stew in the morning, I suck down beef stew, and not only do I have to do more effort (which can be more expensive) I get no reward whatsoever because it isn’t what I want.  Or say, I’m coming home from work one day, and I’m stuck in traffic.  Hey, McDonald’s is just there, I can eat and drive at the same time, amusing myself, saving time (sort of) and not being hungry.  Food ends up being so many things, but when you make it a chore, it’s going to be more likely to be used as a guilty pleasure.

Comment #11: Antigone  on  09/27  at  08:45 PM

Oh, and one more thing:

I end up eating out a lot more than I should, and here’s the simple reason: what I want depends on what mood I am in at the end of the day.  It’s not just “I’m stressed, I want greasy food” or “I’m in pain, give me chocolate” although that does figure in.  But, say I want chicken one afternoon.  If I made beef stew in the morning, I suck down beef stew, and not only do I have to do more effort (which can be more expensive) I get no reward whatsoever because it isn’t what I want.  Or say, I’m coming home from work one day, and I’m stuck in traffic.  Hey, McDonald’s is just there, I can eat and drive at the same time, amusing myself, saving time (sort of) and not being hungry.  Food ends up being so many things, but when you make it a chore, it’s going to be more likely to be used as a guilty pleasure.

Comment #12: Antigone  on  09/27  at  08:45 PM

A thousand times yes! Although it’s a shame to hear this; Bittman usually has such spot-on things to say about the food industry.

Comment #13: artdyke  on  09/27  at  08:55 PM

Actually Flora, your friends who aren’t fussy about flavor may actually be MORE fussy.  Face it, at a FF outlet, everyone gets to eat what they want.  And that catering to individual choices has a lot to do with the eating habits of Americans.  Back when we did eat homecooked, you can bet it was a one meal for all menu.  Today, kids are raised from an early age on single serving everything.  Sharing, compromising and negotiating have become moot from childhood on - wow, I think I just explained the genesis of the Teathuglican attitude in Congress!?

Comment #14: phylosopher  on  09/27  at  09:32 PM

You can serve a roasted chicken with vegetables along with a simple salad and milk for about $14, and feed four or even six people.

It does surprise me that people make statements like this without thinking them through.  If you have a fully stocked kitchen, it’s relatively easy to cook a roasted chicken with vegetables and salad.  If you don’t, it could be impossible.  If you don’t have a working oven, or your oven is a toaster-oven, you’re not going to be serving roasted chicken.  If your stovetop is a single hotplate, cooking something that requires more than one pot/pan is probably out of the question.  If you’re struggling to make ends meet paycheque-to-paycheque, you’re probably not going to have the spare cash to spend on buying bulk.

The bitter truth is that to save money on food and food preparation, you first need to have some excess money to spend on the same.

Comment #15: ckitching  on  09/27  at  09:51 PM

Slow cookers. Seriously.

First off, most slow cooker meals are all-in-one meals that involve some sort of packaged food (can of soup, bag of frozen peas, jar of marinara, etc). They take about 5-15 minutes to throw together. And if your morning is that stressed, you can usually mix up the ingredients the night before and stick the whole crock in the fridge (if you have room) making your morning job literally “take out of fridge and put in slow cooker and set to “low.” The most work I’ve had to do with a slowcooker is taking 10 minutes to sear a round steak before throwing it in with tomatoes, a can of beer, and a couple of brats (also, I get that extra fun sensation of cracking a beer at 8am).

Slow cookers are pretty damn cheap. You can usually get one for between $20-40 depending on the bells and whistles you want. You can even get slow cookers that will turn on at a specific time for not too much more, or, if you have kids and you know they’ll be home before you are, just tell them to switch it over to “warm” after 5pm. Either way, you get home and dinner is -done-.

And let me tell you—nothing smells better than coming home to a house that has had a slow cooker going all day. It’s something to look forward to. Hell, I work from home and by midday I’m drooling whenever I pop downstairs for a glass of water.

They take about 5 minutes to clean up (and you don’t have to use those plastic baggies that they sell—it’s porcelain. It scrubs off in seconds).

There are a ton of cookbooks out there for slowcookers, and magazines like Family Circle and Better Homes and Gardens usually have slowcooker recipes in every issue.

Comment #16: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/27  at  10:07 PM

ckitching: Cooking meals at home is similar to owning a reliable car. A cheap unreliable one costs less in the short run, more in the long run. But if you’re living paycheck to paycheck the gradual higher drain may actually be something you can kind of half-ass handle while there’s no way you can possibly lay out the expense for purchasing a decent one up front.

Decent wages are the only way I know of to fix this problem.

Comment #17: JThompson  on  09/27  at  10:13 PM

There’s also the overeat on schedule—I work for a living so the times when I get to eat (and cook!) are restricted.

Like today. :-(  Still at work.  Got here at 7AM. 

It’s a bit salty, but I think I’ll get some pho on the way home.

Comment #18: James  on  09/27  at  10:15 PM

The idea that people’s homes are homelike,that they are happy to eat their own cooking at home, alone or with other family members, is itself kind of a priviliged assumption. I mean: I have a gorgeous kitchen and I love to cook for my family, and we have family dinner basically every night. But then home is a refuge, a haven in a heartless world, a place where we can cocoon. Not everyone has that option—apartment dwelling with cockroaches? Overcrowded and sleeping on the couch at your aunt’s house because your parents kicked you out? Too many siblings?  Arguments over who cooked and who cleaned up? EAting out is and can be empowering for people—especially teens who are otherwise expected to eat what is served to them, working parents, people who are economically or socially marginal, people who are living alone.  Eating out may be less lonely and alienating than eating in.  Also, a recent article I read (possibly here) described the plight of a woman who had such a lengthy transit time between work and picking her kid up from childcare that eating out was the only way she could feed her kid at a reasonable time. She couldn’t get home with him and cook and feed him without pushing his meal to eight o’clock, where, by contrast, they could break their journey and eat at McD’s in a reasonable time frame.

aimai

Comment #19: aimai  on  09/27  at  10:20 PM

Yeah, pretty much no matter how easy it is to cook at home, it’s still cooking.  There’s prep work and cleaning whether you do it the night before or the night after, and privileging the night before as being easier is kind of only true if the night before you didn’t work the closing shift at the job where you’ll open the next day—if you only have 12 hours between the end of one shift and the beginning of the next, and some of that time is taken up with signing in and out, travelling, changing in/out of work clothes, etc., then by the time you factor in sleeping, you get pretty much no downtime.

If it was legislated that anyone working an eight-hour day had to be given 45 mins to an hour for lunch, employers would howl, and it’d be really awkward for a while (it’s hard enough to schedule who will go for lunch when as it is, if you can only afford to have one person on break at a time because corporate’s already cut hours to the minimum).  And some people would figure that gave them time to rush through more of their lives by scheduling errands then.  Other people would decide to spend that time eating something healthier than before, because hey, you have time to do some of your food prep at lunch, and maybe even clean your dishes in the lunchroom sink instead of doing them whenever you make it home.  A lot of people would probably fall somewhere in the middle—a soup and sandwich from the fast food place that isn’t all that fast* instead of the hamburger from the one with everything waiting under a heating lamp may still be an improvement.

*This example taken from the local mall’s food court, where the unhealthy places push you through quickly, but the healthier options take longer because they do more food prep on demand.  They get the shoppers, but staff from most stores just don’t have time to wait in line for their lunches.  It’s the difference between having fifteen minutes of actual eating time, and having twenty, and those five minutes definitely matter.

Comment #20: fluffster  on  09/27  at  10:40 PM

Also, I like Aimai’s point at comment 19—I’d add, what about someone in a difficult living situation?  Being married to a picky eater who’s okay with eating out a lot is one thing.  Otherwise, food is a battleground where everything you make is wrong for one reason or another, and eating out is not a way around a problem, it’s a way of keeping the problem from ending in tears.  Even if you’d otherwise like to cook for yourself.

Comment #21: fluffster  on  09/27  at  10:46 PM

It is also the case that the poor have relatively few pleasures in life and high fat/high sugar foods are a relatively cheap source of pleasure (and probably both preferable to and cheaper than drugs or alcohol, which are also sources of pleasure available to them).

Comment #22: DrDick  on  09/27  at  10:50 PM

I do not have a rough life. I’m the first to admit that. But I did work at restaurants making $7-$9 an hour for 30 hours a week during summer breaks from college. For starters, the managers forbid us to eat on the clock, even if you were working 8 hours straight. When my manager caught me eating a bowl of rice at 7 pm when I’d been there since 12, I pointed out how long it had been since I ate. His response was “it doesn’t matter. You’re over 18.” They made me dump the food out and get my ass back on the floor, even though I wasn’t immediately needed. All I can tell you is: after 8 hours of being screamed at by managers, hustling from kitchen to dining room, dealing with snotty and demanding customers, and being on my feet for 8 hours, I was not only famished, my only desire was to grab some really greasy discounted food from the restaurant (chicken fajitas and fettucine alfredo were my faves. and both packed 1,500-1,600 calories). I would also frequently stop and buy beer or wine to go with it. I’d go home and sit on the couch til midnight. I can TOTALLY understand why no one who works a service job or a physically demanding blue-collar job wants to go home, eat some grilled chicken and steamed vegetables, and hit the treadmill. I wouldn’t be surprised if the constant stress also contributes to alcohol and drug abuse.

Comment #23: Ashley Herzog  on  09/27  at  11:05 PM

I think that this is also part of the reason poor people are more likely to smoke. Cigarettes are much cheaper and more accessible than vacations and theme park trips and concerts and all that, especially if one is too exhausted to think of the long term.

Comment #24: alysia  on  09/27  at  11:16 PM

Cooking is work, but so is arguing about where to eat, getting your ass to the restaurant, and getting home—-it’s more time-consuming than cooking a simple meal. With fast food, they don’t even provide a pleasant environment that make the experience not-work-like. Every time I’ve eaten fast food, I’ve felt incredibly oppressed by the process of waiting in line or the drive-through. I often think, I could cook something faster.

I think it’s not wise to overlook this aspect.  It weakens the liberal argument to pretend that fast food is all ease and cooking is all work. Fast food is a miserable experience, but for the food, if you like it.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/27  at  11:21 PM

Greasy fatty food hits pleasure centers. It’s also a pleasure in and of itself to pay someone else to do the work of cooking for you. (And look, I enjoy cooking. I even consider it a creative outlet. But it is work, and paying someone else to do it can make you feel less poor, less constrained, if only for a few minutes.) I also think we shouldn’t overlook how many poor people work service jobs ... in fast food. If you’ve been on your feet in a hot kitchen all day/all night and you only have 1/2 hour to drop off dinner for the babysitter and the kids before you head to your next job, that employee discount/mixed-up orders fast food dinner looks even better.

Comment #26: chingona  on  09/27  at  11:25 PM

I agree, Ashley. George Orwell demolished Bittman-style “culture” arguments in “The Road to Wigan Pier.” He pointed out, rightly, that even though you can buy carrots and whole wheat flour on a laborer’s salary, you probably can’t bring yourself to want to eat like that after a grueling day’s work. You want candy and beer and chips—which can be also be bought cheaply—because that’s a concentrated, intense form of enjoyment after a day of drudgery.

I don’t remember if Orwell even factored the labor of cooking into his equation. He probably assumed that even workers had women to do that.

Comment #27: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  09/27  at  11:26 PM

With fast food, they don’t even provide a pleasant environment that make the experience not-work-like. Every time I’ve eaten fast food, I’ve felt incredibly oppressed by the process of waiting in line or the drive-through. I often think, I could cook something faster.

I think you’re projecting your own experience here. I don’t know. I don’t really eat fast food. Maybe once or twice a year, and I almost always regret it afterward. But they wouldn’t be doing the volume they do if people really found it so awful.

Comment #28: chingona  on  09/27  at  11:28 PM

I can definitely relate to eating fast food as pleasure. When I worked a full time secretarial job I only had a half hour for lunch, which was just enough time to eat with my coworkers in the cafeteria, or enough time to get some fast food and walk back. I ended up getting fast food many times instead of eating my packed lunch because I simply did not want to sit at my desk during my break and deal with my ageist boomer coworkers while sitting at my computer, which I had to use for work and had corporate spyware.

When I moved, somebody fucked up the plumbing which resulted in a sewage leakage which destroyed the floor of the kitchen—which meant I couldn’t use it. I had to move out for a while and then the construction people took too long (six weeks) for the insurance company’s liking, so I had to move back in with the dust and the kitchen (no stove, oven or microwave or place to chop things) out of commission for a month. I can tell you that I ended up eating tons of fast food or restaurant food—which was just bad because it rearranged my habits terribly.

Right now, eating outside is entertainment for me—it gets me out of the house and it’s cheaper than going to the movies or traveling to see my supposed friends (for which I have to buy plane tickets or burn an entire tank of gas) or going to the museums ($20/a visit). That and my gym membership are my indulgences. 


@Ashley Herzog 23
They made you dump out your own food where no customers could see you eat and weren’t concerned that people would faint or fuck up orders or any of that shit? I wouldn’t last—someone would either catch the wrath or get some passive aggressive stuff thrown their way. I work 11-12 hour shifts without breaks and I pack tons of snacky food (popcorn, fruit, leftover cooked food, water) because eating for the entire day after midnight is too hard.

Comment #29: Shakti  on  09/27  at  11:40 PM

I like to think of Bittman as an ally in this, coming from a different direction.  From access and nutrition and acceptability.  We need him on the line telling people how many calories, how much nutrition, and how little access to fresh food the average American has.

What we need is someone like Bittman, but who is someone else, to come from the ease and expectation angle.

Personally, I find it night and day, just going seven hours to the east, suddenly restaurants are serving canned food as the majority of fruit on their buffet, in the middle of summer.  I would fear to see what they serve in the winter!

But here, I can get $2/lb in-season tree fruit, transported from farms within 180 miles of here.  They can’t, even though they’re three hours to the east of that fruit.

Comment #30: Crissa  on  09/27  at  11:41 PM

ckitching:

you’re way off.  At $14 that’s not buying bulk.  And let’s not start with the if you don’t haves.  Yes, it’s pretty well understood, that Bittman, and even Marcotte aren’t addressing someone living in a cardboard box.  Neither of them is about the latest in $$$ kitchen gadgets.  They’re about practical, improv.  So , please, stop with the apologia of non-cookers.

Comment #31: phylosopher  on  09/27  at  11:55 PM

There are a ton of cookbooks out there for slowcookers, and magazines like Family Circle and Better Homes and Gardens usually have slowcooker recipes in every issue.
Comment #16: Mighty Ponygirl on 09/27 at 10:07 PM

An fyi on some of those recipes/cookbooks.  Many are put out by fake food purveyors to get you to purchase their pricey food like substances- and it skews the recipe if you don’t because they give it in package amounts only their brand sells. 

Crockpot puts out a pretty good small format book that was pretty good last year - no brand name stuff and lots of bean and veggie recipes.

Comment #32: phylosopher  on  09/27  at  11:59 PM

I often think, I could cook something faster.

And YOU probably could.  You know how to cook, and you know have the space and time to have a well-stocked kitchen.  But when you already have to do the negotiating about what to eat, and then you have to drive out to the store ANYWAY to go get the food, well, it’s quicker to just go to Culver’s.

Fun Fact: Double Cheddar Butter Burger Basket at Culver’s (french fries, large soda): $7.38.  No clean up, no preparation, 15 minute drive time (round trip) 5 minute wait time.  Going to Cub (our local grocery chain): $3.99 for a pound of 85/15 ground beef.  1.50 for 6 kaiser buns (on sale for 99 cents right now).  Block of cheddar cheese 2.99.  You can get a small onion for about a quarter, and a head of lettuce is 1.99.  Red Potatoes are also 99 cents a pound.  A soda is a 1.50 from the machine.

Total cost: $12.75.  15 minute drive to the grocery store (round trip: ours is pretty much next to Culvers), 20 minutes to pick everything up.  Preparation is another 20-30 minutes, and you’re left with the toss-up of whether or not to deep fry the potatoes (more clean up, but quicker eat time), oven fry them, or bake them (healthier, but takes longer to cook).  Now, there’s not only clean-up to consider (which is annoying, especially with greasy food); you’re also left over with most of a head of lettuce, 5 kaiser buns (which you better eat in 3 days max or else both are going to go bad) 2/3 pounds of beef.  Now, if you’re serving 3-4 people instead of one, you’re fine.  If it’s just you, and you don’t feel like eating the next three meals of hamburgers, you better hope you know a recipe that you can eat that uses the leftover materials, and you better suck it up if you don’t want it the next day.  Freezer space?  What’s that?  And my veggies always go bad in 1-2 days, and I barely like vegetables in the best of times. 


So, yeah, time is a factor, money is a factor, as well as pleasure centers of your brain.  If it’s just cooking for me (which it is a lot of nights) it just isn’t worth it.

Comment #33: Antigone  on  09/28  at  12:02 AM

It’s illegal to not give breaks to people in all the states I’ve worked in.

Which leads to the horrible five or six hour shift, whatever scrimps the edge that they only have to give one break.  Which sucks, if you’re the sort of person that really, really needs to eat every three or four hours.

Comment #34: Crissa  on  09/28  at  12:07 AM

I think what Bittman points out is that fast and processed food is actually engineered to be addictive.  It’s really not that cooking is some huge ordeal—there are lots of meals that cook quickly with a minimum of ingredients—it’s that home-cooked food is not created to be addictive.  It might taste better in some ways, but it doesn’t push the same buttons that fast food does.  Almost always, it’s lower in fat, sugar, and sodium, and whatever else it is that makes fast food so freaking addictive.  Frankly, a lot of fast food isn’t all that tasty or satisfying, and it doesn’t make you feel especially good after you eat it.  The process of getting it is not especially satisfying, the atmosphere isn’t all that appealing, and it isn’t that much cheaper than home-cooked meals.  But it affects your brain differently. 

Look, I believe people when they explain why it is they eat fast food, or imagining why someone else might prefer fast food.  I don’t think that everyone who eats out is a lazy moron.  But I think that we can over-excuse.  There are some people for whom cooking at home is not a possibility.  But all the fast food in the country is not being eaten by service industry workers who get off work at midnight and lack a functioning kitchen.  A lot of it is being eaten by people who *do* have the time to cook at home and have access to a Safeway.  Understanding why they choose not to is an important part of addressing the issue. 

I also think we oversell the relative appeal of fast food.  The alternative to fast food is not three-course gourmet meals made from scratch using only locally sourced ingredients.  There is a middle ground, which Bittman points out.  People should be taught how to cook simple, easy, nutritious meals for themselves. 

It won’t work for everyone.  Frankly, there’s no single solution that’s going to get everyone in the country eating better, because there’s no single reason why people are not eating healthy.  But if fast food had to reflect the true cost of production (no more corn subsidies, for example) and if people were given the skills to feed themselves and their families, it would work for some people.  If we came at the problem with an understanding that fast food does provide some kind of pleasure to people who eat it, and that perhaps they lack other pleasures with which to replace it, we might think more creatively about solutions.  If people saw fast food as an occasional treat rather than the default setting, things might be better.  It would nudge the problem along the road to a solution.  We would still have to deal with people who truly lack access to a decent grocery store.  We would still have to deal with people who really do lack the time it takes to cook.  We would still have to work to make fast food healthier.  But we would have addressed some of the problem. 

So if you have truly weighed the options and you just prefer fast food, fine.  You’ve made your call.  But I think Bittman’s point was that a lot of people have not, they’ve just kind of drifted into eating habits that provide them certain kinds of pleasure and convenience, and, more importantly, that people analyzing the problem have accepted some things that are just not true, which interferes with their analysis.  If nothing else, Bittman is trying to clear away some of the brush so we can get a better picture of what’s happening.  I didn’t agree with everything he wrote, but it did make me think about the issue differently.  If we’re asking people to give up something that gives them pleasure (albeit an unhealthy one) what can we offer to replace it?

Comment #35: Kit-Kat  on  09/28  at  12:28 AM

The new book “Wheat Belly” by Dr. William Davis makes a well-researched and scientifically plausible case that modern dwarf wheat is the primary cause of food addiction, obesity, and a number of medical problems.  Davis also points out various health consequences of the rise in blood sugar due to the ingestion of carbs, including whole grains.

Amanda was displeased the last time I mentioned low carb and Gary Taubes but I find it ironic when liberals are pro-science about some issues, such as climate change, but anti-science when it comes to nutrition. 

I realize this forum is not a good place to discuss nutrition.  However, the Wheat Belly blog is very interesting and the book’s an easy read so some of you just might find it valuable to take a look.

Comment #36: Sixtieslibber  on  09/28  at  12:49 AM

“I find it ironic when liberals are pro-science about some issues, such as climate change, but anti-science when it comes to nutrition.”

Is this a thing?  Are there people who are opposed to low carb diets for political reasons?

Comment #37: mamram  on  09/28  at  12:56 AM

When I come home from a 10 or 12 hour shift, on my feet, all I want to do when I get home is sink into a chair until my feet stop throbbing.  I’ve never figured out how to cook sitting down.  All those folks who spend the day at a desk, like Bittman, assume it can be fun (or even a carnival!) to stand for a half hour and cook, but that’s not the case for those of us who are physically exhausted at the end of the day. I don’t eat fast food much - I’m more likely to eat a bowl of cottage cheese and call it dinner.
8 hour days and breaks?  That’s so 20th century.

Comment #38: gretchen  on  09/28  at  01:11 AM

I’m a pro-science lefty and I read Taubes’ “Good Calories, Bad Calories” from cover to cover with great interest. Taubes makes a very good case that the nutrition establishment went way overboard in championing a low-fat diet as an inherently healthy option.

As Michael Pollan also points out, citing some of Taubes’ work, the low-fat orthodoxy was a golden opportunity for every flour-and-sugar-based junkfood huckster to claim that s/he was selling health food as long as it was devoid of lipids.

However, Taubes doesn’t make a particularly convincing case to switch to a low-carb diet from a moderate carb-high-fiber diet. He falls back on special pleading the that the potential clincher trials aren’t considered ethical by the medical establishment. That’s true to some extent. But if this argument carries the day, the upshot is still that Taubes’ implied prescriptions (from “GCBC,” I haven’t read “Why We Get Fat”) haven’t been substantiated by rigorous research.

Comment #39: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  09/28  at  01:22 AM

There’s nothing ‘science’ about the anti-carb diet, even though many a ‘carnivore’ would prefer it.

If you want to cook sitting down, learn recipes that involve baking, pre-made ingredients, less sauteing and chopping.  Or get a tall stool to put in your kitchen.

I don’t know how to make dishes less work, though.

Anyhow, the comparison between Safeway and a fast-food restaurant?  WTF!  For one, you can buy things at Safeway any time (most are open 24 hours), and save them in these things we call refrigerators.  And where did you get a $1.50 fountain drink when you can get a 20oz or 2-liter for the same prices? - and the 20oz is in a cooler next to the register.  That leads me to think your prices are all wrong.  Buns go from $1.5 for 8 to $5 per dozen; for $5 a pound of ground I can get organic in the pre-pack.  You’re paying $4?  WTF.

And whenever I shopped at Cub, their prices were lower than Safeway.  I guess that’s not true now… Admittedly, I’m confused why they still have their mailing address in Spokane and the only stores still called Cubs seem to be in the midwest.  And they’re advertising ‘valuepack’ ground for $3.19.

Comment #40: Crissa  on  09/28  at  02:12 AM

I don’t want to cook at all.  I hate cooking.  I’m tired at the end of the day, and my last meal was before my shift, and I just want to sit down, rest, and eat something filling.  I do make big pots of chili and freeze individual portions, buy individual portions of frozen fish and steam them, that sort of thing, but for me cooking isn’t fun or fullfilling.  It’s work, a means to an end, like cleaning the bathroom leads to a pleasant clean bathroom, and I enjoy cooking about as much as I enjoy scrubbing the toilet, so I’m always looking to minimize it.  I’ve got plenty of work in my life as it is.

Comment #41: gretchen  on  09/28  at  02:28 AM

I really don’t eat fast food much at all, really due to be a vegetarian and how a salad and fries (yes yes, some places have other options, but not always) are not filling and upset my stomach after awhile anyway. And I like to cook, and throwing together a dinner is relatively easy for me. That being said, especially when braindead after a consecutive 12 hour shifts, I want something really simple and easy to make. It is probably going to be something processed and bad for me, but at least it doesn’t involve any thought power or work. And sometimes it is a case of not realizing I was out of 3 out of 5 ingredients for a meal, realizing the time it would take to go and buy ingredients and come back and cook would cut into not being late for work/getting too little sleep, so eating out or processed food it is (possibly both, depending on the restaurant).

Comment #42: Tenya  on  09/28  at  02:32 AM

I know for my family, dinner for four at McDonalds is about $18.  It’s impossible for me to get out of a grocery store for less than $25.  I live in Hawaii, and I think it’s especially the case if you live someplace urban or otherwise expensive.  Two Happy Meals and a Quarter Pounder was $13 tonight.  My wife would have ordered two hamburgers if she was home, and that would have pushed it up to about $16.  I made teriyaki burgers the other night, and a pack of buns, a pound of ground turkey, an onion, a tomato, and a bunch of bananas and some grapes to make a fruit salad was $20, and that doesn’t consider that I already had the ingredients for teriyaki sauce, and a papaya to add to the fruit salad.  The idea that we would spend $30 at McDonalds, but could manage to serve a roast chicken dinner for $14 (including salad and milk) is ludicrous.

Comment #43: Wallace  on  09/28  at  04:51 AM

A thoughtful and insightful post.

I would add that in addition too taking physical and emotional energy, cookiing also increases cognitive load because you have to plan.

Comment #44: Benquo  on  09/28  at  08:51 AM

Not to mention, it’s hard to cook when your lights are turned off* or when it’s 100 degrees and your AC is out.

*an occurrence that happens way more than it should in Memphis.

Comment #45: shannon  on  09/28  at  09:00 AM

chin, I don’t think so. And I’ll tell you why: if speed were the main consideration, it’s quite literally faster and generally cheaper to go to 7-11 and buy a cold sandwich and a bag of chips. And more pleasant.

McDonald’s knows people will endure their miserable environment to get thie food. That’s why they don’t bother sprucing the place up.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  09:02 AM

It’s that you work really hard and experience very little pleasure, and so the cheap thrill of fattening food is comforting.

This really gets to the heart of it. Fattening food is about pleasure, the kind of pleasure that makes you wonder, like an addict, how gray and empty life would be without it. If it’s one of the few sources of pleasure you have, you’re going to hang onto it as hard as you can. And unlike mind-altering drugs, food is an actual necessity.

Comment #47: junk science  on  09/28  at  09:05 AM

An fyi on some of those recipes/cookbooks.  Many are put out by fake food purveyors to get you to purchase their pricey food like substances- and it skews the recipe if you don’t because they give it in package amounts only their brand sells.

Crockpot puts out a pretty good small format book that was pretty good last year - no brand name stuff and lots of bean and veggie recipes.

That’s funny, the little small-format book my Crock Pot came with was crammed full with name brand goods. Maybe I didn’t get the Crock Pot Organic line.

Look, phylo, I wasn’t talking to you. We know that you go out every morning and thresh your own wheat and milk your buffalo to make fresh mozzarella for lunch, and nothing passes your lips that was ever exposed to an artificial sweetener and preservatives.

But no one is going to go from eating McDonalds every night to shopping at Whole Foods. But I would rather have someone shopping at *gasp* Wal-Mart, and picking up a can of condensed soup and a package of ground beef encased in styrafoam and plastic, and then throwing that in a slow cooker along with a few frozen veggies and maybe a chopped onion, than have someone eating at McD’s. It might be only infintisimally healthier than McD’s by your standards, but it’s a whole lot cheaper. And while you might turn up your nose at those slow cooker recipes that DARE use a brand name in them, if keeping it to brand names means less time chopping (which, I’m sure you’re not aware of because you came out of your mother’s womb knowing how to perfectly slice an onion, takes a long time for beginners), which means less “shit I don’t have time for this I’ll grab mcD’s on the way home.”

It also gets at the point Amanda was making, that we should really try to reach people where they’re most comfortable. Rachel Ray is popular for a reason. And while 30-minutes might be too much time for some people who are so desperately over-worked that a half an hour is too much time spent when they’d just rather sack out and watch X-Factor, taking 10 minutes in the morning to dump a can of soup, a bag of green beans, and a couple of chicken breasts into a slow cooker could be the vector that we reach them at to start making better food choices. Once they’re off and running with that, they might start looking at moving even healthier still. But they’re not going to do that if someone’s fucking scolding them about buying a pre-packaged can of soup.

Comment #48: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  09:07 AM

Also, McDonald’s food isn’t even as satisfying and filling as a greasy pizza or bucket of chicken, so you end up eating thousands of calories without even realizing it. McDonald’s gets to hit you twice.

Comment #49: junk science  on  09/28  at  09:08 AM

I think it’s interesting that all the focus on labor mainly ignores emotional labor, which is where I do think there’s a huge gap between cooking and fast food. If you cook, you have to do all the emotional labor of getting everyone interested in eating it. You have to endure children whining, “Not this again, we ate it LAST month.” Granted, the fact that children will eat Burger King every day really doesn’t compute with their logic, but trying to explain logic to kids is work. I can see how it’s easier to give in and feed them crap than fight them into putting good food in their mouths.  Mostly because I’ve seen it in my own family over and over.  The #1 reason any parent in my family ordered pizza or grabbed Taco Bell on the way home was to avoid whining during dinner.  My father, in desperation, tried calling a moratorium on junk food, hoping we would unlearn to like it. But you know, he liked it, too, and when my folks divorced, he was going to give in during visitations.  Even though he objectively loves to cook (I got it from him).

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/28  at  09:09 AM

Fast food is a miserable experience, but for the food, if you like it.

I can’t agree with that at all. Going to a fast food place has all kinds of pleasant associations mixed in with it, especially if your parents took you there as a kid. At worst the environment is a neutral factor, unless the location you’re going to is incredibly dirty or crowded or something.

Comment #51: junk science  on  09/28  at  09:47 AM

I live in Hawaii, and I think it’s especially the case if you live someplace urban or otherwise expensive. 

Given that everything in Hawaii has to be brought in either by air or ship(fresh produce, locally grown excepted of course), any comparison would have to take that fact into considering how expensive food items are compared to the mainland, where most of it comes in via truck or rail instead.

picking up a can of condensed soup and a package of ground beef encased in styrafoam and plastic, and then throwing that in a slow cooker along with a few frozen veggies and maybe a chopped onion, than have someone eating at McD’s

Except that with a few fresh veggies, meat, and soy sauce or one of your choice, you can make a stir fry that only takes 20 to 30 minutes to cook if you use beef, less so for chicken/pork/fish, etc.

Cooking cheaply isn’t rocket science, folks.

You can buy your meat in bulk(depending on the size of your freezer), which might mean for some taking a chicken and cutting it up into several portions to be cooked later, or taking 5lbs of hamburger and dividing it up into 1lb portions for use later.

That’s a far cry from what you said Phylo does, but it isn’t hard to achieve, IMHO.

Comment #52: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  10:04 AM

Comment #40: Crissa on 09/28 at 02:12 AM

I can only speak to Safeway, but around here anything labelled “Valuepack” is packed in bulk. So yeah, it may be $3.19/lb, but you have to buy 5lb. Right now, 85/15 ground beef is $5.49/lb. The cheapest buns on the shelf are $2.19/8, and a 20-oz soda is $1.89 plus a 5-cent bottle deposit. I had an issue a few months ago where my fridge was dying, but it wasn’t quite dying enough to convince my landlord to replace it yet, and there’s a fast food place literally steps from my apartment building that keeps their drive-through line open 24/7. I was able to manage lunches (making 2 servings, holding them in a cooler until I could get them into the fridge at work), but the dollar burger and dollar fries (or even the four-dollar chicken pita with some actual vegetables and two-dollar side salad) for dinner was cheaper than anything that would leave leftovers.

And I certainly understand why Amanda wonders why anyone would ever want to eat at a fast food restaurant—urban locations wind up grubby and depressing, for whatever reason—but out here in the rich yuppie suburbs, they “spruce up” on a regular basis.

Comment #53: Bex  on  09/28  at  10:06 AM

Junk science:

Good point, I think some of my favorite childhood memories are going to mcdonalds with my sisters and their friends, and then as a teenager hanging out at the local mcdonalds with my friends.  I think for most of us fast food has a lot of pleasant memories.  Even now sometimes it’s fun to swing by mcdonalds on the way home from a bar, it’s amazing how good fries taste when you are drunk.

Comment #54: Benny  on  09/28  at  10:06 AM

With fast food, they don’t even provide a pleasant environment that make the experience not-work-like. Every time I’ve eaten fast food, I’ve felt incredibly oppressed by the process of waiting in line or the drive-through. I often think, I could cook something faster.

I think that may be true for many people if you don’t take children into account since many fast food places also provide playgrounds. And they are the kind of restaurant where children are most welcome. Take a kid into a nicer restaurant and you’ll probably get the evil-eye and lots of sighing from other patrons.

Comment #55: Livi  on  09/28  at  10:20 AM

This is a great post and thread; it raises so many important issues.  My wife and I make enough money, but we and our kids eat way too much crap.  Some of the reasons are familiar and have been raised here: we both have full-time jobs; we have 3 kids with busy schedules; given a choice, the 5 of us would never agree on exactly the same dinner; neither of us enjoys cooking for cooking’s sake; etc.

But I think the points about pleasure and addiction are incredibly important.  Try as we might, we have never been able to stick to a regimen of planning and cooking dinners for more than a couple of weeks at a time.  We always slip back into getting fast food 2 or 3 times a week.  We fall off the wagon and in the long run are no happier about it than alcoholics, drug addicts, or smokers trying to quit.

I will add that TV can play a similar role.  We don’t let the kids watch that much, but it’s easy for us to just veg the night away in front of the tube and fall asleep on the couch.  It’s not even that pleasurable, but it’s so easy and routine.

Comment #56: ScottInOH  on  09/28  at  10:33 AM

Wallacen @ 43:  I just returned from Kuaui where I was for work.  I bought a big bunch of grapes for less than $2/lb at Big Save.  The kiwi was about $0.50 each.  I also ate breakfast at McD’s there; seemed slightly higher than mainland prices, but not by much.  Even so, chicken and stuff for salad - even fruit salad, if grapes and kiwi - would have been less than $20.  I did not go into the Safeway in Lihue, so maybe they are more expensive than the Big Save?

Comment #57: helen w. h.  on  09/28  at  10:40 AM

Scott @ 56: yeah, that was sometimes us when the kids were little, except that neither the spouse nor I had grown up able to afford fast food either and both of us could cook, at least some.  The fact we weren’t wed to recipes, being more likely to throw whatever was on hand into a pan, made for less planning required - stir fry was whatever meat was in the fridge ground, sliced or chunked (and was whatever it was because that was cheap that week), frozen veggies from whatever completely plain store brand was at the top in the freezer (plus usially onions - either frozen or fresh).  It was usually less than 15 minutes if there was left over rice from earlier in the week; 20 minutes if we cooked noodles; more like 40 if we needed a new big batch or rice. 
That alternated with whatever on hand thrown into the crockpot in the morning and cooking all day.  I never had a problem using the name brand recipes and subbing in either store brand or fresh/frozen stuff. 
If anyone didn’t like what was for dinner, the option was peanutbutter and bread with an apple, orange or banana on the side.

Comment #58: helen w. h.  on  09/28  at  10:56 AM

Except that with a few fresh veggies, meat, and soy sauce or one of your choice, you can make a stir fry that only takes 20 to 30 minutes to cook if you use beef, less so for chicken/pork/fish, etc.

20 to 30 minutes if you can chop veggies quickly. Have you ever watched a newbie try to chop and devein a bell pepper? Or struggle to chop an onion? IT TAKES FOREVER. For stir-fry, you need all of your components prepped in advance, and you often need them separated into separate bowls because each component needs to be added at particular times.

Cooking cheaply isn’t rocket science, folks.

Being condescending to people’s realities obviously isn’t either.

You can buy your meat in bulk(depending on the size of your freezer), which might mean for some taking a chicken and cutting it up into several portions to be cooked later, or taking 5lbs of hamburger and dividing it up into 1lb portions for use later.

First of all, assuming you have a big freezer is a BIG assumption. I have not had a lot of freezer space since I left home for college and I’m a home owner now. We would *love* to have a chest freezer, but it simply hasn’t become a reality because other expenses have taken precedent.

Second I think again you’re coming from the pov of someone who has a fairly high buy-in to do their cooking, even for someone who loves cooking, I hate hate HATE dividing up bulk meat into individual baggies and putting them in the freezer. Often, I end up with hard little boulders of frozen meat tumbling out of of my shitty little freezer onto my toes. Or I forget to take it out to thaw it, or it’s not *quite* thawed by the time I get home, etc etc etc.

Again, we have to think about people who aren’t like us—who view cooking as a chore and would otherwise be happy to let others do that grubwork for them, and that means babysteps. If that means letting Campbell’s do a little of the work for them and buying pre-packaged cutlets, that’s a babystep we have to accommodate in order to not come off as tremendous douchebags.

Comment #59: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  10:58 AM

People keep saying things like “cooking isn’t rocket science.” As if anyone ever said it was! I see people saying cooking is a CHORE. It’s dull, tedious, and fuck—I am technically “good” at it (in that I can chop properly and quickly, sort out a recipe and tell when things are done) but I am pretty much never happy with the end result. If I were bad at it, I can’t imagine what kind of tasteless shit I’d be trying to choke down in the name of “health.”

I recently had to give up shopping at the “good” grocery (Whole Ripoff) because for six weeks running, I have had items spoil within *hours* of getting them home. I am talking cheese that’s moldy before the sealed wrapper is open, lettuce that is rotten at the core (but cleverly bundled so shoppers can’t see or smell it!), peppers that are full of mold the first time you cut them open. (A NASTY little surprise.) If I were to return all the wasted merchandise they’ve handed me this year, I’d need a second job to pay the extra subway fare. So they’re out of my rotation, permanently.

That is my *good* grocery. At my *bad* grocery, the tomatoes in the produce section are openly rotting and nobody replaces them.

I live in a wealthy, predominantly white neighborhood in a bustling city, folks. And I’m ready to give up eating at home because I can’t get edible and affordable groceries within 5 miles of my house (no car, so further than that becomes pretty untenable). I do not even want to THINK about what our food deserts look like.

None of this means cooking is “rocket science.” It means that even as simple and straightforward as it may be, sometimes it isn’t worth it anyway.

Comment #60: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  11:37 AM

Or rather, cooking may not be rocket science, but first you have to get to the part where you cook. And *that* process isn’t always worthwhile.

Comment #61: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  11:39 AM

Have you ever watched a newbie try to chop and devein a bell pepper? Or struggle to chop an onion? IT TAKES FOREVER.

Well, yes, I’m assuming that there is some skill involved that is learned.  If one is inexperienced, it will take longer, but that’s a reason to practice, not to avoid learning how to do it in the first place.

If you’re time-limited or cooking for an event, then it’s probably better not to have a newbie in charge in the first place, and for said newbie to learn how to do it well before undertaking the task.

Have you ever watched a newbie try to park a car in parallel to the street?  IT TAKES FOREVER.

That doesn’t mean nobody should parallel park, or not learn how to drive a car in the first place.

And, as <a href=“http://tinyurl.com/bellpeppervideos”>this search demonstrates<a>, it’s not like finding a video that teaches you how to do something in the kitchen is difficult or impossible to do and learn from.

For stir-fry, you need all of your components prepped in advance, and you often need them separated into separate bowls because each component needs to be added at particular times.

Yes, because using 3 or 4 small bowls is so difficult, and it’s not like you could prep them the night before and store them in your fridge to cook in the morning or when you come home from work.

Being condescending to people’s realities obviously isn’t either.

How is it condescending to point out that, whatever the logistics of buying, storing, and preparing food to eat, they aren’t of a high complexity?

First of all, assuming you have a big freezer is a BIG assumption.

Did you miss the part when I wrote, “Depending on the size of your freezer?”

Also, I was talking about enough space to store a parted out whole chicken and 5 lbs of meat at the least, which, the last time I checked, would fit in most normal-sized freezers that come with a fridge, unless you’re talking about a mini-fridge for a dorm room or the like.

Second I think again you’re coming from the pov of someone who has a fairly high buy-in to do their cooking, even for someone who loves cooking, I hate hate HATE dividing up bulk meat into individual baggies and putting them in the freezer.

You have to determine whether it’s worth your time to do so from whatever monetary savings you get from buying in bulk, you might feel it’s better to buy small packages of meat or cut-up chicken than to save 30 or 40 cents/lb and having to do a disagreeable task.

Often, I end up with hard little boulders of frozen meat tumbling out of of my shitty little freezer onto my toes.

That’s a matter of arranging them along the side or back of the freezer, unless your freezer comes with a slope grin

Or I forget to take it out to thaw it, or it’s not *quite* thawed by the time I get home, etc etc etc.

Again, planning a little ahead is important, and isn’t rocket science.

Again, we have to think about people who aren’t like us—who view cooking as a chore and would otherwise be happy to let others do that grubwork for them, and that means babysteps.

No, you’ve convinced me, rather than subject these people to the pain and suffering of learning how to cook for themselves, it’s better off not to demand anything of them because it’s such a chore.

It’s dull, tedious, and fuck—I am technically “good” at it (in that I can chop properly and quickly, sort out a recipe and tell when things are done) but I am pretty much never happy with the end result.

If you’re not happy with the end result, ur doing it wrong.

<>i>That is my *good* grocery. At my *bad* grocery, the tomatoes in the produce section are openly rotting and nobody replaces them.</i>

That’s what health departments are for, if you had told the folks at the good grocery store that you’d be doing so the next time they sold you bad food(I think that the health department would even come to you to get your ‘sample’), they they might not be so cavalier about their procedures the next time.

What you’re talking about is a failure of regulation, not reasons to give up cooking for yourself and others.


Comment #62: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  12:42 PM

<a >this search demonstrates</a>,

Fixed.

Comment #63: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  12:44 PM

this search demonstrates

Fixed

Comment #64: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  12:46 PM

Have you ever watched a newbie try to park a car in parallel to the street?  IT TAKES FOREVER.

I can assure you, it took a lot less time for me to figure out how to parallel park a car than it did for me to learn how to quickly finely chop an onion or mince a clove of garlic in less than 5 minutes. By the third or fourth time I had the parallel parking more or less down. Learning to chop vegetables involves knife skills that take a long time to hone. And that’s assuming you have the money for a good kitchen knife and get the right cutting board.

Yes, because using 3 or 4 small bowls is so difficult, and it’s not like you could prep them the night before and store them in your fridge to cook in the morning or when you come home from work.

If you have a dishwasher and a full dinner set, then it’s no big deal to have 3 or 4 extra bowls, but when you’re going from “I throw out the paper bags that my meal came in” to “I have to actually clean up after myself now that I’ve made this meal I’m not particularly bought into making,” 3 or 4 extra bowls is three or four extra bowls to wash and that’s a pain in the ass.

Again, planning a little ahead is important, and isn’t rocket science.

No, but it does require a different way of thinking. My husband teaches math, so he’s not a rocket scientist, but he trains people to become future rocket scientists. But he is not a pre-planner. He never has been, he never will be. You can’t make people into planners when they aren’t.

No, you’ve convinced me, rather than subject these people to the pain and suffering of learning how to cook for themselves, it’s better off not to demand anything of them because it’s such a chore.

You’re being facile and you know it. There’s a reason a person’s first driving lesson isn’t parallel parking, and there’s a reason to let beginning chefs lean on pre-packaged foods while they get comfortable chopping.

Comment #65: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  01:15 PM

What you’re talking about is a failure of regulation, not reasons to give up cooking for yourself and others.
<blockquote>

Yes, because a person who is too lazy to cook for herself is obviously definitely energetic enough to start getting involved with the health department. Look, in the end grocery shopping is a waste of BOTH time and money for me. I can waste the time in fruitless arguments with Chicago’s board of health (fruitless because I am not an alderman and have no money for bribes), or I can waste the time in actual shopping. Food is not my life, dude, I have a million things I’d rather do or think about.

<blockquote>If you’re not happy with the end result, ur doing it wrong.

It’s not that the results are inedible, it’s that I don’t care. I don’t really derive any substantial pleasure from food that I can prepare with my level of skill and lack of equipment (no oven, only stovetop, half-size fridge/freezer). Yeah yeah, picky picky.

 

Comment #66: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  01:26 PM

Damn. Sorry about the failed blockquotes.

What you’re talking about is a failure of regulation, not reasons to give up cooking for yourself and others.

Yes, because a person who is too lazy to cook for herself is obviously definitely energetic enough to start getting involved with the health department. Look, in the end grocery shopping is a waste of BOTH time and money for me. I can waste the time in fruitless arguments with Chicago’s board of health (fruitless because I am not an alderman and have no money for bribes), or I can waste the time in actual shopping. Food is not my life, dude, I have a million things I’d rather do or think about.

Comment #67: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  01:27 PM

Back when I was really pressed for time, I never used fresh on weekdays - frozen veggies all the way.  As for the seperate bowls, I still don’t do that.  It all goes in one big bowl and gets thrown in when its part comes along (if I’m worrying about it) or all at once.  Seriously, stir fry is only that complicated and time consuming if you are majorly picky, not “I need real food for $5 or less for 4 people in about 30-40 minutes”. 
(0.99< for 1 lb rice or noodles; $1 each x 2 for 1 lb frozen veg; $1-2 for a small package of meat; this assumes vinegar or juice or some sort, or a premade sauce of some sort, or even just pepper and the like, admittedly, but you buy those once for a week to a month or longer)

Comment #68: helen w. h.  on  09/28  at  02:02 PM

I can assure you, it took a lot less time for me to figure out how to parallel park a car than it did for me to learn how to quickly finely chop an onion or mince a clove of garlic in less than 5 minutes. By the third or fourth time I had the parallel parking more or less down. Learning to chop vegetables involves knife skills that take a long time to hone. And that’s assuming you have the money for a good kitchen knife and get the right cutting board.

All you need is a sharp knife and a wooden cutting board, neither one of which takes a lot of money.

There are even videos on the Internet on how to cut onions.

If you have a dishwasher and a full dinner set, then it’s no big deal to have 3 or 4 extra bowls, but when you’re going from “I throw out the paper bags that my meal came in” to “I have to actually clean up after myself now that I’ve made this meal I’m not particularly bought into making,” 3 or 4 extra bowls is three or four extra bowls to wash and that’s a pain in the ass.

Yes, it should take you a whopping 2 to 3 minutes to wash and rinse them.  I can see how that would be a PITA.

If you’re doing veggies that all require about the same amount of cooking time, you just need one bowl for said veggies.

You could even make 2 bowls do the work of 4, just fill one halfway with A, put a plastic wrap on top of it, fill with B, put a wrap on the top of it, and you do the same with the other bowl.

No, but it does require a different way of thinking. My husband teaches math, so he’s not a rocket scientist, but he trains people to become future rocket scientists. But he is not a pre-planner. He never has been, he never will be. You can’t make people into planners when they aren’t.

I guess he doesn’t do lesson plans as well.

So, you can’t do all the planning for the both of you, or make up a menu and tell him, “This is what you’ll be cooking on Wednesday, this is what I’ll be cooking Thursday”?

You’re being facile and you know it. There’s a reason a person’s first driving lesson isn’t parallel parking, and there’s a reason to let beginning chefs lean on pre-packaged foods while they get comfortable chopping.

Oh, I understand baby steps and all that, but you’re throwing out reasons not to go up from that stage of cooking to something more sophisticated, and I don’t buy them.

I don’t really derive any substantial pleasure from food that I can prepare with my level of skill and lack of equipment (no oven, only stovetop, half-size fridge/freezer).

Then it’s up to you to increase your skill level, not let your meals be dependent on the efforts of others, which is what I’m seeing as the logical response to your dilemma.

I can waste the time in fruitless arguments with Chicago’s board of health (fruitless because I am not an alderman and have no money for bribes), or I can waste the time in actual shopping. Food is not my life, dude, I have a million things I’d rather do or think about.

Of course, you could approach the store, with pre-written letters to their upper management,  the health department, the local newspaper, the FDA,  etc and let them know that you take this matter seriously.

I would take rotten food seriously as a problem, but then, that’s not “The Chicago Way”, is what you seem to be telling me.

Comment #69: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  02:03 PM

“There’s nothing ‘science’ about the anti-carb diet, even though many a ‘carnivore’ would prefer it.”

It’s pretty uncontroversial that one of the problems with sugary foods and beverages is that they cause a sharp increase in blood sugar levels.  It’s not just the calories.  For somebody with insulin resistance (a lot of people) bread and pasta have a similar effect.  Protein and fat do not.  What part of that do you take issue with?

The whole low carb=carnivore thing is a misconception.  It is very possible to eat a low (not no, obviously) carb vegan diet.  When I decided to reduce my carb intake, I was already mostly vegan, and I did not have to increase my consumption of animal products in order to make it work.

Comment #70: mamram  on  09/28  at  02:10 PM

Then it’s up to you to increase your skill level, not let your meals be dependent on the efforts of others, which is what I’m seeing as the logical response to your dilemma.

Dude, I am not gonna cook. End of story. I am not interested in it because the return on my investment is insufficient. I don’t think cooking makes you or me a better person, I don’t enjoy it, I get little enough enjoyment in my life as it is. If my life changes radically, and I mean radically, then I will possibly reconsider my priorities.

Right now, it is not something I’m going to spend my time on. If I am going to spend my limited time and energy on anything, it’s going to be finding quick, prepared options that are healthier than normal and still within my budget. And then spreading the word about these options, in hopes that more people demand them, and then they become more affordable and easier to find.

I would take rotten food seriously as a problem, but then, that’s not “The Chicago Way”, is what you seem to be telling me.

I know anecdote isn’t data, but when my coworker went to his alderman last year to complain about unsafe sewage leaking in his block, he was threatened with physical harm. Excuse me if I’m not eager to become the next Ralph Nader and get my kneecaps busted for my troubles. I have a fucking day job.

 

 

Comment #71: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:17 PM

And that’s assuming you have the money for a good kitchen knife and get the right cutting board.

That’s not true at all! Heck, until recently I did most of my cutting and chopping with cheap steak knives. It also doesn’t matter THAT much whether your garlic or onions are chopped “correctly.”

Really, it’s food, not launching a rocket. If things aren’t perfect, it’s going to turn out pretty much 90% of how it would have turned out if you did it perfectly. Cooking is a tool for creating edible food to sustain you.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  09/28  at  02:17 PM

Dude, I am not gonna cook. End of story. I am not interested in it because the return on my investment is insufficient. I don’t think cooking makes you or me a better person, I don’t enjoy it, I get little enough enjoyment in my life as it is. If my life changes radically, and I mean radically, then I will possibly reconsider my priorities.

The only sensible reason to cook is that it makes you less dependent on others for your nutrition.

Also, I don’t remember Amanda or anyone else saying that cooking makes one a better person, or that you have to enjoy it in order to do it well.

I know anecdote isn’t data, but when my coworker went to his alderman last year to complain about unsafe sewage leaking in his block, he was threatened with physical harm.

That’s why you write a letter to the paper, involve federal agencies if you have to, make enough of a fuss that physical retaliation becomes untenable as a result.

If things aren’t perfect, it’s going to turn out pretty much 90% of how it would have turned out if you did it perfectly. Cooking is a tool for creating edible food to sustain you.

Even my onions aren’t chopped as well as when my noble spouse does so, but they are small enough for cooking and their lack of an exact geometry doesn’t affect the flavor in the slightest.

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  02:30 PM

I guess he doesn’t do lesson plans as well.

He does in fact struggle with them, but here’s the thing: He sort of has a gun to his head about that. If he can’t get his lesson plans together, then he gets fired and he doesn’t have money. So he gets his lesson plans together, and it takes him probably a lot longer to do that than most teachers do. There is no such gun to his head about food when he could just as easily swing by a 5 Guys on his way home and pick up burgers.

So, you can’t do all the planning for the both of you, or make up a menu and tell him, “This is what you’ll be cooking on Wednesday, this is what I’ll be cooking Thursday”?

Not really, because since he’s going to be doing the cooking, I’d rather it be something he elects to make instead of me opening a cookbook and shoving a particular page in his face, which is going to reduce the chance that he’s going to actually do it. And I don’t particularly enjoy having to do all of the planning. It’s just another chore.

Comment #74: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  02:37 PM

That’s why you write a letter to the paper, involve federal agencies if you have to, make enough of a fuss that physical retaliation becomes untenable as a result.

See again, day job, not interested.

The only sensible reason to cook is that it makes you less dependent on others for your nutrition.

And why is this such a compelling reason? I really don’t get it.

 

Comment #75: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  02:38 PM

Dude, I am not gonna cook. End of story. I am not interested in it because the return on my investment is insufficient. I don’t think cooking makes you or me a better person, I don’t enjoy it, I get little enough enjoyment in my life as it is. If my life changes radically, and I mean radically, then I will possibly reconsider my priorities.

Understanding this, do you find there are arguments that make cooking seem a little more appealing, and others that make you want to dig in your heels?

Comment #76: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  02:44 PM

Understanding this, do you find there are arguments that make cooking seem a little more appealing, and others that make you want to dig in your heels?

For me personally? Nope. But theoretically, for other people? Certainly. I read and respect Amanda’s CSA threads and many of her food threads in general. I think her approach is pretty appealing for someone who’s mostly like her—self-employed, urban, child-free, middle-income. I think it will probably fall flat for lots of others, but it won’t turn them *off*. Everything Avenger has said on this thread, on other other hand, makes me want to destroy every oven in America and mandate 5,000 calories of McD’s every day, just to spite him. wink

Comment #77: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:06 PM

The only sensible reason to cook is that it makes you less dependent on others for your nutrition.

Since you’re spending a lot of time on this blog during high harvest season, I’m assuming you’re not a subsistence farmer, in which case, I got news for you buddy.

Everything Avenger has said on this thread, on other other hand, makes me want to destroy every oven in America and mandate 5,000 calories of McD’s every day, just to spite him. wink

You don’t say. :p

I hope that I’ve been nice enough that my oven can be spared.

Comment #78: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  03:09 PM

I hope that I’ve been nice enough that my oven can be spared.

You may retain the oven, but absolutely no deep freezers! Muahahaha.

I just don’t understand the absolute insistence upon Home Cooking uber alles, versus better-quality available food in all places, whether at groceries or restaurants.

I think it’s horseshit that cooking is somehow more virtuous—not only than not-cooking, but more virtuous than all the interests and responsibilities I’d have to jettison in order to cook for myself ~100% of the time.

I definitely want our society to be friendlier to people who want to cook. I also want it to be friendlier to people who *don’t*, or who *can’t*. I don’t think these are mutually exclusive, IF your goal is in fact to just have healthier people eating better.

If your goal is to evangelize people into the Jeebus of Cookery, though, well, you’re just gonna come off as another irritating evangelist. Don’t nobody like them.

Comment #79: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:25 PM

There is no such gun to his head about food when he could just as easily swing by a 5 Guys on his way home and pick up burgers.

There’s not enough of an incentive for him to plan his meals, is what I’m getting from you.

See again, day job, not interested.

I’m not talking about becoming an activist over the issue, but you brought it up, so I’ll know to ignore any problems you bring up in the future.

Everything Avenger has said on this thread, on other other hand, makes me want to destroy every oven in America and mandate 5,000 calories of McD’s every day, just to spite him.

Because I’ve pointed out the low barriers of entry to cooking stir-fry, keeping a small supply of meat onhand in a freezer-fridge, etc?

Since you’re spending a lot of time on this blog during high harvest season, I’m assuming you’re not a subsistence farmer, in which case, I got news for you buddy.

False analogy.

You’re flailing here, MP.

 

Comment #80: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  03:36 PM

I guess it does sort of disturb me to think about someone eating out >50% of the time because the way we’re NOT set up in our country… I suppose you could eke out a pretty inexpensive meal (like at the chinese takeout—it could even be healthy if you order the right thing off the menu), but the amount of waste produced by eating take-out is pretty cringeworthy, and eating at sit-down restaurants where plates and utensils are re-used is prohibitive. I suppose it would be nice if we could even that out, but I’m not sure how we get there from here.

Comment #81: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  03:38 PM

How is it a false analogy. We rely on people for our food all the time. I live in a place that actually DOES have subsistence farmers. I belong to a CSA and I am pretty fucking aware of the labor and reliance I have upon other people for me to cook at home in my kitchen.

Comment #82: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  03:47 PM

Because I’ve pointed out the low barriers of entry to cooking stir-fry, keeping a small supply of meat onhand in a freezer-fridge, etc?

No, because when I point out that I find even those low barriers to be not worth my while, you just stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la la la cooking is teh shiz.

Query: Do you support at all the idea of promoting healthier fast food? Or should those of us who won’t cook simply continue snarfing crap, as that is what we deserve?

Comment #83: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  03:53 PM

We rely on people for our food all the time. I live in a place that actually DOES have subsistence farmers. I belong to a CSA and I am pretty fucking aware of the labor and reliance I have upon other people for me to cook at home in my kitchen.

I live in Tulare County, one of the most productive agricultural counties in the USA:

Economy

Milk brings in the most revenue for the county, typically more than US$ 1 billion a year annually. Oranges, grapes, and other cattle-related commodities also bring in hundreds of millions of dollars annually.

In 2001, Tulare became the most productive county in the U.S. in terms of agricultural revenues at US$ 3.5 billion annually, surpassing Fresno County’s US$ 3.2 billion, which held the spot for over two decades.

For some reason, you remind me of this.

Also, I have an apricot tree, several nectarine trees, an orange tree, a lemon tree, a persimmon tree, and a pear tree, all producing fruit in various amounts, which I either puree for freezing or dry for long-term storage, and I used the dried fruit as a snack, so I do have some food that I grow myself, which, btw, isn’t that hard to do either.

Your attempt this time scores 9 for desperation, 2 for execution.

Comment #84: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  04:05 PM

So you’re a fruitarian, then?

Comment #85: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  04:14 PM

MP, do you honestly think there aren’t more people you have to rely on to eat out?  That the food shouldn’t be an order of magnitude more expensive if the workers are getting a living wage?  Hell, if food prices would go up just a little higher, more family farms might be able to get back into/stay in operation rather than almost all crashing when grandma/grandpa dies and the place gets sold and cut up for ranchettes because their kids can’t break even farming, much less raise their families.

Comment #86: helen w. h.  on  09/28  at  04:15 PM

While I usually cook for myself (partly because it’s cheaper, but mostly because I like cooking) sometimes it’s just not possible.  Today, for instance, there was absolutely no way it was going to happen, and I had to eat fast food for lunch.  Because I live in a city with lots of diverse food options, I was able to get a speedy meal for around five dollars that was just as healthy and tasty as what I would have packed for myself.  I assume that if healthy, tasty, cheap, and convenient fast food were available everywhere, it wouldn’t really matter whether people like to cook for themselves or not, right?  What is the objection to that?

Comment #87: mamram  on  09/28  at  04:15 PM

No, because when I point out that I find even those low barriers to be not worth my while, you just stick your fingers in your ears and go la la la la la la cooking is teh shiz.

My response to you wasn’t what you quoted, and you know that, I was responding to MP, not trying to convince you that you can cook tasty stir-fry because you’ve disqualified yourself beforehand.

Do you support at all the idea of promoting healthier fast food?

Sure, but I think that also undercutting the unhealthy fast food market by encouraging those with low barriers to entry into the cooking community to cook for themselves, and stopping the subsidies given to HFCS and sugar growers would be a good start as well.

Or should those of us who won’t cook simply continue snarfing crap, as that is what we deserve?

You act as though you don’t have a choice of some sort, so perhaps it’s on you folks to demand more healthy fast food, but I forgot, you don’t do Ralph Nader because you have a day job.

Again, being dependent on others for nutrition isn’t a wise choice, IMHO, but, yeah, give me grief because I don’t eat a lot of fast food therefore it doesn’t affect me whether you choose to eat MickyD arterial cloggers or a salad from Wendy’s, therefore I have to worry about those people who won’t cook for themselves because….........

 

Comment #88: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  04:20 PM

  I assume that if healthy, tasty, cheap, and convenient fast food were available everywhere, it wouldn’t really matter whether people like to cook for themselves or not, right?  What is the objection to that?

That’s what I’ve asked twice now and have yet to get an actual answer.

Comment #89: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  04:21 PM

So you’re a fruitarian, then?

Is that what you got out of this?

so I do have some food that I grow myself

HEADDESK

That’s your problem, MP, you take everything I say to extremes to prove I’m an extremist when you can’t use logic or facts in your replies.

Comment #90: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  04:23 PM

That’s what I’ve asked twice now and have yet to get an actual answer.

The answer is yes.

Bonus tip:

If wishes were horses, all would ride.

Comment #91: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  04:24 PM

@ DA read it again, you were responding to me. Not MP. This quote:

Everything Avenger has said on this thread, on other other hand, makes me want to destroy every oven in America and mandate 5,000 calories of McD’s every day, just to spite him.

Was ME, responding to MP. Not that it matters, the sentiment is shared betwixt she and I, it seems.

Being dependent on others isn’t a wise choice
You have yet to explain why not. Except to snark on MP for pointing out that you’re not exactly a subsistence farmer yourself, fruit trees notwithstanding. If you buy ANYTHING at a grocery, you’re depending on someone else for your food. Welcome to society.

I’m not acting as though I have no choice. I know I have a choice—and I Choose not to cook. Since I choose not to cook, I’m going to expend my energy on making not-cooking a better option for me, and by extension for others who choose not to cook. I’m not asking you to DO anything—I merely wondered if you even considered that a valid approach.

 

 

Comment #92: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  04:26 PM

helen, the order of magnitude isn’t important. Dark Avenger is making the claim that relying on other people to feed him is unacceptable. But unless he plants, harvests, and cooks every damn thing that goes in his mouth, then he’s relying on a whole slew of people to bring his food to him already. Seed supplier, farmer, field workers, shippers, and supermarkets, not to mention the entire corporate structures behind them. I don’t think stacking another corporate structure or two onto the end of that to move the food to a processing center and from there to a fast food restaurant and then have a few wage slaves cook it up is somehow a bridge too far.

If you can get all your food from the farm stand down the street that’s great, but I would say 99% of Americans get their “home cooked meals” from a supermarket, and pretending that Mom and Pop woke up at dawn to lovingly pick those vine-ripe tomatoes and drive them over to the Pathmark so that you could bring them home and make a healthy salad out of them is ridiculous.

Comment #93: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  04:27 PM

And I write this as someone who belongs to a CSA, cooked 5-6 nights a week, buys local as much as I can afford to, and has even been known to have a tomato plant or two and is in her third year of canning. It works for me. I enjoy it.

Comment #94: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  04:41 PM

“If you buy ANYTHING at a grocery, you’re depending on someone else for your food. Welcome to society.”

And isn’t this a good thing?  Paying other people/entities to take care of some of my essential needs is many times more efficient than if I were to try to do it all myself.

Comment #95: mamram  on  09/28  at  04:46 PM

And isn’t this a good thing?

Oh, mamram. DA is so very disappointed in you. :D

Comment #96: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/28  at  04:50 PM

  Well, what at 79: I think the emphasis on cooking over all is because food reformers believe that its nearly impossible to get a plurality of restaurants to provide quality food to people at a reasonable price. I think they are right in this belief. The restaurants that focus on nutritous, healthy, quality food are in the minority. Even not cheap restaurants have food that is not exactly the best for people nutrition wise. By providing better access to qualitiy grocercies and expecting people to cook for themselves, the reformers believe that they will get closer to the results that they want.

Comment #97: Lee  on  09/28  at  04:58 PM

Everything Avenger has said on this thread, on other other hand, makes me want to destroy every oven in America and mandate 5,000 calories of McD’s every day, just to spite him.

Was anything I suggested wrong, illegal, or impossible of accomplishment?

OTOH, you’ve come up with all sorts of excuses as to why you can’t cook, you can’t get good food to cook, you can’t be bothered to do anything about it, so I guess the heavy lifting on getting healthier fast food is left to fools like MP and myself.

Dark Avenger is making the claim that relying on other people to feed him is unacceptable.

No, that relying on others exclusively to prepare my food for eating is unacceptable to me.

But unless he plants, harvests, and cooks every damn thing that goes in his mouth, then he’s relying on a whole slew of people to bring his food to him already.

As is true for the rest of the population, outside of subsistence farmers,  of course.

I don’t think stacking another corporate structure or two onto the end of that to move the food to a processing center and from there to a fast food restaurant and then have a few wage slaves cook it up is somehow a bridge too far.

To rely on them exclusively would be for me, and, perhaps, for you as well.

If you can get all your food from the farm stand down the street that’s great, but I would say 99% of Americans get their “home cooked meals” from a supermarket, and pretending that Mom and Pop woke up at dawn to lovingly pick those vine-ripe tomatoes and drive them over to the Pathmark so that you could bring them home and make a healthy salad out of them is ridiculous.

Which I said where, exactly?

MP, I will say, you never disappoint me, you’ve been extremely consistent in your tactics of exaggeration, vituperation, and carelessness with the facts, have you ever thought of running for public office?

:-D

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  05:06 PM

@97 I am sure they do believe that it’s impossible; however, several urban areas in this country are a testament otherwise. It’s extremely easy for me to pick up healthy convenience foods, and in fact, my closest McD’s closed down due in part to the steep competition from a sushi place, an organic sandwich shop, a soup place, and a neapolitan pizza place. Only the pizza place is a marked step up in cost. The others are marginally more costly, but people just seem to consider them (and I think rightly) to be the better value.

Now as I have said, this is a pretty financially privileged neighborhood and people can cough up the extra 2 or 3 bucks per person. It’s not a universal solution, but neither is everyone cooking all the time. It’s going to have to be both things.

(And personally, I think it’s just as unlikely that everyone will magically start to cook as that restaurants will become healthier…both problems seem fairly intractable barring MASSIVE social overhaul)

Comment #99: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:12 PM

so I guess the heavy lifting on getting healthier fast food is left to fools like MP and myself.

What part of “I’m going to work on thing X instead of thing Y” means, “You do both things X and Y while I take a bath?”

Was anything I suggested wrong, illegal, or impossible of accomplishment?

No, but your tone was consistently pompous and condescending and dismissive. If you want people to be more like you, it helps to not sound like a bore and a snot.

 

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:18 PM

For the record, it’s been quite a few posts but I did explicitly state my willingness to expend effort in ways I find worthwhile:

If I am going to spend my limited time and energy on anything, it’s going to be finding quick, prepared options that are healthier than normal and still within my budget. And then spreading the word about these options, in hopes that more people demand them, and then they become more affordable and easier to find.

Comment #101: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:25 PM

What part of “I’m going to work on thing X instead of thing Y” means, “You do both things X and Y while I take a bath?”

You couldn’t contact the health department because a friend was threatened when he reported a problem to his alderman, you can’t write a letter to the paper because “I have a day job”........

Should I go on, well, what?

No, but your tone was consistently pompous and condescending and dismissive. If you want people to be more like you, it helps to not sound like a bore and a snot.

<blockquote>Except that with a few fresh veggies, meat, and soy sauce or one of your choice, you can make a stir fry that only takes 20 to 30 minutes to cook if you use beef, less so for chicken/pork/fish, etc.

Cooking cheaply isn’t rocket science, folks.

You can buy your meat in bulk(depending on the size of your freezer), which might mean for some taking a chicken and cutting it up into several portions to be cooked later, or taking 5lbs of hamburger and dividing it up into 1lb portions for use later.

That’s a far cry from what you said Phylo does, but it isn’t hard to achieve, IMHO.<blockquote>

If you’re never going to cook for yourself, why should it bother you so much that I advocate for it?

Comment #102: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  05:29 PM

You couldn’t contact the health department because a friend was threatened when he reported a problem to his alderman, you can’t write a letter to the paper because “I have a day job”........

You’re assuming that contacting the health department does anything to advance my goal, which it does not. Because my goal is no longer to cook, so the grocery store’s produce cart is really not my problem. Like I said, instead of wasting energy trying to make it more possible for me to do cooking i don’t want to do I will expend energy making it more possible for me to do things I DO want to do.

If you’re never going to cook for yourself, why should it bother you so much that I advocate for it?

It doesn’t bother me that people advocate for it, it bothers me when people advocate it to the exclusion of other options.

Comment #103: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:46 PM

When someone says, “this is how my life looks right now, and in this life, cooking is a waste of time and energy, and sometimes even money” the snot response is to say:

Then it’s up to you to increase your skill level, not let your meals be dependent on the efforts of others

In other words, fuck what you say is right for you, do as I say.

Comment #104: Well, what?  on  09/28  at  05:49 PM

You’re assuming that contacting the health department does anything to advance my goal, which it does not. Because my goal is no longer to cook, so the grocery store’s produce cart is really not my problem. Like I said, instead of wasting energy trying to make it more possible for me to do cooking i don’t want to do I will expend energy making it more possible for me to do things I DO want to do.

You’re the one who brought up the problem with your local grocery, not I.</i>

It doesn’t bother me that people advocate for it, it bothers me when people advocate it to the exclusion of other options.

Except I haven’t declared a jihad on eating fast food, just that making food at home isn’t that horribly hard.

“this is how my life looks right now, and in this life, cooking is a waste of time and energy, and sometimes even money”

Except that’s not your original complaint:

It’s not that the results are inedible, it’s that I don’t care. I don’t really derive any substantial pleasure from food that I can prepare with my level of skill and lack of equipment (no oven, only stovetop, half-size fridge/freezer). Yeah yeah, picky picky.

In other words, fuck what you say is right for you, do as I say.

You offer all sorts of problems and why you can’t do anything about them, so please, don’t let me add to your misery.

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  07:00 PM

Apparently Phylosopher is contagious, and Dark Avenger has caught it. Quick! Quarantine!

Comment #106: kristin  on  09/28  at  07:51 PM

Yes, kristin, the no, no, podemos crowd around here must be served as well, and without Phy and I to kick around, what else could you talk about around here.

Comment #107: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/28  at  08:14 PM

  Well, what: The sushi place, organic sandwich shop, and soup place are better health wise than McDonalds but not in the way that the food reformers want. All of the above places are still fairly caloric and rely on fats and salts to sell their food. Grocery stores and people cooking for themselves might be seen as more reliable agents because grocers can make money selling good produce and people can be taught to cook how the food reformers want them to. Restaurants are more unreliable because they will specialize in unhealthy food if necessary to make money.

Comment #108: Lee  on  09/28  at  10:35 PM

When we do fast food, we get 1 mega super meal.  Two people share that drink, and all four share the fries.  The rest order ala carte off the dollar menu with small drinks. It rarely gets over $20 for four.

You don’t have to eat the gigantic meals - that’s family sized!

Comment #109: Ms Kate  on  09/28  at  10:51 PM

Oh, and we get some funny looks when we pool the mega items as a family ... like you can do THAT???

Comment #110: Ms Kate  on  09/28  at  10:54 PM

Sushi, I’ll grant you, probably isn’t the most healthful thing in the world, but sandwiches?  Soup?  What the heck is wrong with sandwiches and soup?  And why are you convinced that in order for food to be delicious and satisfying enough for people to actively seek out, it must be bad?  Are you Catholic?

Comment #111: mamram  on  09/29  at  02:05 AM

  mamram: It depends on what ingredients are used to make the sandwiches and soups. A chicken soup or split pea soup is very healthy. A lobster bisque is not. A sandwich with some meat and vegetables and mustard is healthy. A loaded deli sandwich like a Reuben is not. The potential for health is there but it can be bad to.

Comment #112: Lee  on  09/29  at  07:43 AM

Lee, chicken soup or split pea soup CAN be very healthy - if it is chicken broth rather than chicken dripping-based soup; if it uses lean ham, vegetable broth or similar, not salt pork (mostly fat) for flavor, etc.  Even these tend to have too much salt for your average diet (except for the very active and in really hot weather). 
And both are very simple to make in a crockpot during the time you are at work so that it is ready when you get home - no work except dishing it up at the end of the day.  For a split pea and vegetable, you can dump everything in and let it sit out at night to start in the morning or throw together in the morning or even have middle school age kids start it on high when they get in from school - whichever works better.
For those who have chosen not to cook, rather than those who are bewildered by how to manage it, this is of no importance and frankly none of my business.  I’d like for there to be more options for not cooking when none of us feels like cooking; but health/diet issues make that difficult to find, expensive or both for my family.

Comment #113: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  10:18 AM

@comment 112: here we go with the “bad food item” stuff again!

Get this: there are no good or bad foods! Only foods to be eaten sparingly and foods to be emphasized.  If you just did a 60 mile bike ride, that reuben might be just what you want or need!  Not every day, but once in a while.  If you hardly move out of your office chair, you really have to be careful to get enough nutrients in your calorie-limited diet. 

Perspective, please!

Comment #114: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  10:43 AM

Jesus christ, EVERYTHING *can* be bad. I can myself in my own sainted sacred kitchen after an hour or so of toil make something that is slathered in grease and fat and sugar.

And also I am curious as to why fish, rice, and vegetables are fantastic and beautiful when served in an Easy! Homemade! Stirfry! but suddenly become unacceptably terrible for you when wrapped together into a little roll and served with wasabi. Unless y’all are eating your sushi, like, fried or something. Where I come from it is raw fish, cold rice, and probably some kind of roe…

Comment #115: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  10:57 AM

Sure, soup and sandwiches can be unhealthy, but I’m guessing that if Well, what? gave these places as examples of where a person can get healthy fast food, it’s because they carry healthy soups and sandwiches.

Comment #116: mamram  on  09/29  at  11:10 AM

And also I am curious as to why fish, rice, and vegetables are fantastic and beautiful when served in an Easy! Homemade! Stirfry! but suddenly become unacceptably terrible for you when wrapped together into a little roll and served with wasabi.

Yes, because all commentators here share the same brain, just like Rocky and Eddie in that movie musical.

Comment #117: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/29  at  01:22 PM

That was an *outstanding* non sequitur, DA.

Unless you really think Lee would have finger-wagged at someone who said they throw veggies and shrimp in a wok for a stir fry many nights?

Comment #118: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  01:45 PM

Marram @ 116: 
Except that if these restaurants are struggling and trying to make money (because businesses do that), they may cut corners by using the cheaper and less expensive versions, and not indicate in one way or another which they are.  In other words, unless well, what? either knows the owners and preparers or the work is done where the public can see, s/he has no idea if the soups and sandwiches are healthy or not.  If Well, what? spends time in the kitchen making calore loaded greasy crap, at least Well, what knows exactly what it is.
If you are relatively healthy, have no major allergies or reactions to particular foods and eat sensibly (for whatever your size and activity level) these considerations are no problem, but just because it is soup or a sandwich doesn’t mean it is more healthy than your typical “fast” fast food (eg McDs).
Sushi?  I’ve got no problem with sushi as a fast food, other than are the supplier and preparer fairly compensated, and if so, can I afford it.  Generally, one of these answers will be no if we are talking about feeding teens (or a large family).  For a single person, or even two, it may actually be less expensive to buy prepared than try to make compairably at home.

Comment #119: helen w. h.  on  09/29  at  01:52 PM

I don’t cook as often as I feel that I should for several reasons:

1. I don’t like it.
2. I really dislike grocery shopping.
3. It’s still considered women’s work and I assume I’ll have a lifetime of cooking ahead of me once I get married (if that happens).
4. I don’t like it.

(Although, I recently discovered that my local Safeway delivers grocery orders, which sort of helps with 2.)

Also, I disagree that women being “possessive” of the kitchen is a large contributor to men not cooking. I’d need to see actual data to even begin to believe that more than a minority of women are so possessive of their kitchens that they won’t let their men touch them.

I think the main reason men don’t cook as much is that it’s still viewed as women’s work. Also, men are generally given a pass when it comes to being hopeless at domestic chores. It really pisses me off.

Comment #120: Godless H  on  09/29  at  01:59 PM

“I’d need to see actual data to even begin to believe that more than a minority of women are so possessive of their kitchens that they won’t let their men touch them.”

And even if this were happening, I would guess that a significant portion of it would be a result of other members of the household exercising such (probably somewhat deliberate) incompetence that eventually you just go, “Forget it!  You’re making a mess and ruining the nonstick cookware.  It’s faster and easier if I just do it myself,” and then both of them cutely pretending that it’s about her possessiveness (Ladies and their kitchens!  Amirite?) and not his incompetence. 

I’m sure it’s obvious that I’m thinking of specific people here, but I bet they aren’t the only ones who do it.

Comment #121: mamram  on  09/29  at  02:36 PM

Unless you really think Lee would have finger-wagged at someone who said they throw veggies and shrimp in a wok for a stir fry many nights?

Lee perhaps painted with too broad a brush, but it is true that there are unhealthy sushi options:

There are unhealthy sushi options as well though, so be sure to steer clear of fried tempura and sushi selections that include dumplings, cream cheese and other fattening items.

From my own experiences both with home-made Chinese food in my family and Chinese restaurant fare, it wouldn’t surprise me to find that there is probably more salt in some of the items to appeal to the American(White/Caucasoid/Majority!) palate, and there is significant saturated fat in the avocado in a California Roll, although an order per week probably won’t shut down your cardiovascular system grin

Anyway, I hope you never have to experience the drudgery and sheer humiliation, of preparing your own food in the future.  I can see how starting out by peeling a raw carrot for a snack could lead to disaster in your case.

Godless H, in my wife’s culture, a man who cannot cook is considered not a competent person, I wish this was so in American culture.

Comment #122: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/29  at  02:56 PM

Well *of course* if you eat something fried or slathered in cream cheese it will be unhealthy. But the last time I checked there were something like 40 different options on my local sushi menu, and only a handful of them contained tempura or cream cheese or mayo.

I begin to think that people who cook just think people who don’t are fucking morons. And on the other thread Shah has confirmed this, btw.

I can see how starting out by peeling a raw carrot for a snack could lead to disaster in your case.

Here is where I could argue that I do in fact prepare simple snacks and food x number of times per week, because often I get home late enough to foreclose takeout or grocery store pickups. But you would undoubtedly find those efforts to be paltry and not up to snuff, and frankly I’m no longer sick enough to find this bullshit remotely entertaining.

Comment #123: Well, what?  on  09/29  at  04:10 PM

There are no unhealthy foods (aside from toxic or tainted ones). Just unhealthy diets.

Comment #124: Ms Kate  on  09/29  at  09:03 PM

And even if this were happening, I would guess that a significant portion of it would be a result of other members of the household exercising such (probably somewhat deliberate) incompetence that eventually you just go, “Forget it!  You’re making a mess and ruining the nonstick cookware.  It’s faster and easier if I just do it myself,” and then both of them cutely pretending that it’s about her possessiveness (Ladies and their kitchens!  Amirite?) and not his incompetence.

Exactly, mamram. I was going to add this, but didn’t want my post to get too long.

Frankly, I think the vast majority of this cooking and kitchen possessiveness bullshit is a result of stupid gender norms.

Comment #125: Godless H  on  09/30  at  09:32 AM

I think it is more the specific gender norm that eating health meals and having a clean kitchen are still seen by so many people as the woman involved’s respondibility, no matter who does the cooking or is at home or works more hours.

Comment #126: helen w. h.  on  10/04  at  08:24 AM
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