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Next entry: Bamboo Review: Get Him To The Greek Previous entry: Teabaggery funny but scary

Against authenticity

Music

I’ve been pissed off about the Lynn Hirschberg hit piece on M.I.A. since it came out.  Granted, M.I.A.‘s reaction afterwards—-tweeting Hirschberg’s phone number, trying like hell to prove she was quoted out of context, etc.—-made it harder to side with M.I.A., and easier to believe the accusations that she’s childish and wears radical politics as a costume more than a real belief system.  But still, I come back to thinking, who cares?  Am I supposed to stay up late at night, thrashing in my bed, worried that pop artists are more invested in image, aesthetics and symbolism than in direct action?  What next?  Being angry that painters are more worried about texture and color than about starting organic farms? 

Hell yeah I thought it was sexist.  M.I.A. is actually one in a long line of musicians whose audiences perhaps read images literally instead of symbolically.  Public Enemy was notoriously unnerved by the fact that their use of the symbols of militancy were taken so seriously by some audiences—-that is, when they weren’t being amused at how those images scared the crap out of whiny racists.  Anyone who’s into punk rock has been given more than one headache because of this problem.  Punk started off as relatively apolitical, but let a few people do what artists do and use political content in their music, and suddenly it’s A Movement.  But usually, this disconnect doesn’t cause the New York Times to commission a hit piece.  The artistry of Public Enemy wasn’t considered null because they weren’t actually radical underground militants, and there’s no suggesting the Clash isn’t a great band because they didn’t actually start riots.  But they’re dudes, which makes it harder to attack them through the weapon of cattiness.  Suggesting they, as artists, want attention and audiences isn’t going to be some huge strike against their character.  Dwelling on the fact that they like tasty food won’t make people think they’re greedy.  The amount of cloth on their body isn’t an indictment of their character.  That they choose to work while also parenting isn’t something you can get people to clutch pearls over.  But if you have a female target, all these weapons are available to you, and used to great effect in the Hirschberg piece.

Sady at Tiger Beatdown and Nitsuh Abebe at Pitchfork have some useful thoughts.  Both are incredibly annoyed at Hirschberg’s suggestion that one cannot really have leftist politics while being wealthy, and I have to point out that even implying otherwise shows a certain lack of intellectual heft.  I find myself agreeing with Abebe that M.I.A.‘s particular brand of politics-as-art is often childish and irresponsible and insensitive—-it’s easy to be a supporter of political violence if you don’t actually have to live in the thick of it, isn’t it?  So, they’ve got that covered.  I want to talk about authenticity, and why I’ve come to hate the discourse around it.

Once I realized where Hirschberg was going with that M.I.A. piece, I started to get a headache.  Authenticity baiting is the worst game in pop music, because it’s such a rabbit hole. There’s no way to “prove” authenticity and so any attempts to prove it will just dig you in deeper.  And if you want to prove someone’s inauthentic, that’s easy, too. To be perfectly clear, M.I.A. does invite authenticity baiting, by being obsessed with it.  Abebe pulls out a particularly grating example:

It also makes for the most Western quote in Hirschberg’s piece, where Arulpragasam fires off a line about Bono’s poverty efforts in Africa—about how Bono’s not African, but she herself is from Sri Lanka. This is an incredibly first-world thing to say: It’s not about policy or development issues or whether Bono’s accomplishing anything worthwhile. It’s entirely about this Western game of authenticity and who gets to wear the cloak, who gets the credit for something.


Trying to be “authentic” never works.  You can strive and strive, but there’s always something about you that’s going to be a little too posh for the haters.  Having been a music fan and in left-leaning politics for roughly forever, I’ve come around to seeing how “authenticity” is basically a weapon used to knock people down.  Often the crime is, as Sady pointed out, being too outspoken or popular.  And let’s be clear—-women are easier to beat with the “wants attention” or “thinks she’s all that” sticks, but “authentic” eats up the careers and often lives of men as well.  (Think of how this idea played into the deaths of Tupac, Biggie, and Kurt Cobain.)  The craving for this impossible standard of authenticity causes neurotic behavior, depression, and withdrawal.  To make it worse, “authenticity” is not just a lie, but it’s also a black hole.  It eats up everything around it, including those things that are real, like quality and effectiveness.

For example, take Kathleen Hanna, who basically has given up on music and does a lot of interviews where she sounds like she’s been beaten down with the authenticity stick.  Take her recent interview in the Bust music issue this year.  (Yes, I read Bust.  I suppose this makes me inauthentic.)  She laments how much she was unable to resist the bullshit that was flung at her, laments her youthful inability to distinguish that from real criticism, and sadly admits that only recently has she even listened to Bikini Kill albums, because the whole thing left her sore.  You know who loses when something like this happens?  Well, the artist for sure, but also the fans.  You know what’s genuinely authentic?  The pleasure that you get from putting on a Bikini Kill album and pumping yourself up.  The moment of joy at a Le Tigre show when everyone’s pumping their hands in the air.  The purity wars, the authenticity cruising, the impossible standards of perfection, the requirement that musicians and artists who have political content in their art be these Jesus-like figures of political perfection—-all that kills the music.  And ironically distracts from what is pure and authentic about music, which is the feeling it gives you.

The smart artists are the ones who basically tell the authenticity police to fuck off, and refuse to believe in authenticity.  In a lot of ways, the idea of authenticity and the accusations of selling out have receded for a decade or so, and music has been way better off for it.  Musicians, both underground and above ground, have been more interested in playing with symbols and ideas than shoring up their credibility as “authentic”.  I’d really hate to see the emphasis shift back to a system that chews people up and spits them out, instead of one that supports artists at what they do, which is creating inspiring and enjoyable works.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:33 AM • (135) Comments

The Hirschberg piece was so cliche it was pathetic.  Using a upscale lunch as a framing device?  Really?

Comment #1: Robert  on  06/10  at  11:45 AM

Accusing someone of being a sell out is a cliche, so why not use the worst kind of framing device as a cliche?  It’s just the most damaging cliche.  I like to point out to people that the first purely punk rock band—-The Ramones—-wanted nothing more than to sell a platinum record and they couldn’t understand why the whole world didn’t see how great they were.  What the authenticity trolls see as their value, an inability to sell a gazillion records, felt to them like a failure.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  11:56 AM

RE: The selling out thing.

I seem to remember in the early 90’s it was a big “sellout” when Sonic Youth & Nirvana signed w/Geffen and then it ended up being a non issue after they each released albums to much aclaim. To me it always seemed like the natural progression. As an artist gains popularity, they work with companies that are big enough to meet the demand for their art.

Comment #3: Mark  on  06/10  at  11:57 AM

Authenticity is designed so that even considering the question makes you inauthentic.  But of course if you haven’t considered the question, and just want to stick to doing your art, you’re naive. Or perhaps even disingenuous.

I think you’re being too kind when you say “authenticity is that feeling”—authenticity is only that feeling if you’re not aware you’re having it. Which is why (at least as deployed) it’s worse than useless as a concept. It’s sort of like the myth of the noble savage—and omigodthey’rewearingteeshirts.

Comment #4: paul  on  06/10  at  12:02 PM

Well, Hirschberg may be proving her point, whatever it was, unintentionally: I would generally say “no” to drinks at the Wilshire, or behind a 7-11 dumpster for that matter, with a NYT reporter.

As to authenticity, my enjoyment is not lessened by the fact that the 101ers (later the Clash) were once content to be pub-rockers, or that Dr. Dre rocked the Soul Glo and Grandmaster Flash disco suit before deciding he was a gangsta. However, if you throw a dollop of politics on the top, you can theoretically cross over from being inauthentic/sensational to exploitative.

Comment #5: norbizness  on  06/10  at  12:02 PM

I remember reading this article and thinking the reporter was a giant Maureen Dowd-level asshole, but since I’m not too familiar with MIA’s work I just kind of shrugged it off. But then some Facebook friends got in a row over it, on precisely these terms: whether the reporter was revealing that MIA was a fake or whether this was just a takedown. I"m like, she’s a pop star: of course she’s a narcissist. But you’re right, Amanda: a dude in her position would be framed as totally focused on his work and image, but because she has lady parts, she gets hammered as a ditz.

The portrait I got out of the article was that MIA was doing her thing and the reporter was mad because she wasn’t kissing the reporter’s ass, but instead just letting her tag along. And that kind of shows that MIA isn’t ready for prime time yet, because everyone in the 21st century knows that the reporter is the real story.

Comment #6: felagund  on  06/10  at  12:04 PM

Fair enough, paul.  I was mostly being rhetorical, to drive home how the most important thing is the joy of the art.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  12:06 PM

That’s true, norb, but talking about it requires more thoughtfulness than just guilt-tripping the order of truffle fries.  Abebe’s points, I think, were much more interesting. But I think there’s a space for people to simply speak political thoughts in music without being married to a leadership role as an activist.  It’s fucked up that this can’t be easier to do.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  12:09 PM

consider: it was the whole fraudulent “village people” claim of al gore’s & john kerry’s “inauthenticity” that got us stuck with george bush for 8 years, as if bush was a just a good ol’ boy made good.

Comment #9: cpinva  on  06/10  at  12:12 PM

I’m not crazy about MIA, but that interview bugged me, too. It just felt like a hit piece—MIA has been well-received by a lot of communities for just too long now, and it’s time for the takedown to begin, I suppose. I feel like it’s an outgrowth of this thing that people do where they scramble to condemn the thing that everyone likes before anyone else and whoever hates it first wins. Maybe part of the reason why people like certain music in the first place is the feeling that it’s intimate when it’s shared by fewer people, but as soon as lots of people start to like the Dirty Projectors, for example, you have to make mention of how this track really sucked and then go on to just hating them, full stop, because they’re sellouts, somehow.

Comment #10: Jenny Dreadful  on  06/10  at  12:13 PM

I’ll go right out and say it: you can’t have genuinely socialist politics if you’re wealthy. You can wish you did, for instance if you happen to be a self-hating class traitor (the self-evidence of the bankruptcy of capitalism on an ethical level can certainly lead to that amongst the more sensitive bourgeois kids). But class privilege will distort your understanding of it. People always ultimatly pursue their self-interest, which is partly their class interest. That is why every bourgeois socialist out there is a state socialist or an orthodox Marxist. They have condescension for the poor which stems from their class upbringing, and the very thought of letting the proles run the show (like they would under, say, anarcho-syndicalism) without a hierarchy from above telling them how to be good communists gives them fits.

That still doesn’t change the fact that if MIA was male ‘he’ would not have gotten this much flack. It’s a hit piece. Also, the idea of artists being a political vanguard, ala punk rock, is hopelessly naive anyway. A song is not a political act.

Comment #11: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  12:23 PM

It’s true, Amanda and Cpinva, most discussions of the issue in the media are about as deep as this.

Comment #12: norbizness  on  06/10  at  12:27 PM

Also, it should be understood I only mean socialism (which is what I understand when we say ‘leftist’). Feminism, Third World liberation, and other movements that gravitate around the Left but are not necessarily socialist can certainly be defended by wealthy people, because the interests represented by these movements are not class interests per say. They will probably have a blind spot to issues that represent intersections between these interests and class interests, but then socialists have had blind spots to issues that intersected socialism with feminism in the past, so that’s not new.

Comment #13: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  12:28 PM

When you take yourself seriously, you open yourself up to mockery about the fact that the things you consider oh-so-serious about yourself and your work aren’t that serious at all, and that your thoughts are either shallow or that you are really just appropriating someone else’s hard work on serious matters.

Comment #14: Tyro  on  06/10  at  12:28 PM

I got over how “authentic” artists were well before I even graduated high school. It seemed obvious to me that no one wants to starve and having the opportunity to make more money doing what you do (particularly if you’re being assured that you will still have creative control when you’re signing the contracts and trusting them at their word) is going to be a pretty big pull for a lot of artists who would have to get sick of the poverty thing after a while.

Courtney Love famously told the authenticity police to fuck right off. I’m not a huge fan of her, but I can’t fault her for that. I can’t fault Liz Phair for writing pop songs these days.

Siouxise Sioux broke it off with Budgie and released a solo album a few years ago that was .... different. I can’t say it was my favorite effort, but I can at least appreciate that this artist I have tremendous respect and love for is still producing work and not dead or a shut-in. Plus, I think she’s finally able to work with the voice she has now. It became obvious to me listening to the album cuts vs her live shows that her producers were making her sing in a range that was hard for her to pull off, and it sounds like it wrecked her vocal chords for it. Listening to an album of her not trying to sing soprano and working the alto like she should is satisfying in its own way. :D

Comment #15: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/10  at  12:37 PM

I was sorry to read M.I.A’s quote that “Ben’s family insisted,” when explaining why she gave birth at Cedars-Sinai instead of in a tub with a midwife. I wish she would have said, “Fuck you. I had a lot of options and I took the best one for me.”

After studying to be a midwife, I am constantly aware of the guilt and shame thrown at women because of where/when/how they give birth. If you give birth in a hospital, you’re weak and shallow. If you give birth at home, you’re reckless and stupid. If you have a cesarean that wasn’t medically necessary you’re selfish. If you turn down an epidural, you’re an asshole that’s trying to make other women feel guilty just by saying “I didn’t have an epidural.” And if you change your mind and/or let someone else’s feelings influence your decision, then you’re inauthentic and a liar.

So I would’ve called bullshit on the article for that alone.

Comment #16: shakahi  on  06/10  at  12:49 PM

This ties into one of my pet peeves: the idea that you have to be “authentic” or “keep it real” as an artist.  MIA is a musician.  She’s an artist who makes music.  I really don’t care how “real” she is any more than I care whether or not Al Pacino was ever “really” a gangster.  It’s all performance, and the whole idea of degrading an artist for not “keeping it real” is just another way to try to take someone down a notch for whatever reason (almost always jealousy).

I feel the same way about the Punditry or Commentariat who decide who gets to spout a political opinion.  We’ve all heard the right-wing jackasses crow on about Hollywood Liberals or Leftists artist who just “need to shut up and sing/act/etc.”  Funny that they never say that about right-leaning artists spouting their opinion (Gov. Arnold, Fred Thompson, Sonny Bono, James Woods, Gary Sinise, Patricia Heaton, etc).  We are all entitled to a political opinion.  As a private citizen, I’d be applauded for being active int he political discourse.  If I were an actor, I’d be ridiculed.

Comment #17: bouj  on  06/10  at  12:59 PM

@shakahi (#16)

The obvious option would be to have the baby in a manger.  If it was good enough for Our Lord And Savior, The Blond-Hair Blue-Eye English-Speaking Baby Jesus, it should be good enough for you any of you women-folk.

Comment #18: bouj  on  06/10  at  01:02 PM

bouj,
Thanks. I now have soda all over my keyboard.

Comment #19: shakahi  on  06/10  at  01:10 PM

I’ll go right out and say it: you can’t have genuinely socialist politics if you’re wealthy. You can wish you did, for instance if you happen to be a self-hating class traitor (the self-evidence of the bankruptcy of capitalism on an ethical level can certainly lead to that amongst the more sensitive bourgeois kids). But class privilege will distort your understanding of it. People always ultimatly pursue their self-interest, which is partly their class interest. That is why every bourgeois socialist out there is a state socialist or an orthodox Marxist. They have condescension for the poor which stems from their class upbringing, and the very thought of letting the proles run the show (like they would under, say, anarcho-syndicalism) without a hierarchy from above telling them how to be good communists gives them fits.

And Blackbloc wins the internetz by basically providing a potted description of not only the Communist Party members in Communist states, but also most of the Marxist/Maoist activists on US/Western campuses….especially those at the private schools.  One reason why it was so easy to not only ignore their rants about why I am a tool for not joining them, but also poke holes in their theories in and out of class, especially those pertaining to China.  Too many examples from history and from my family members’ experience with living under actual Maoism and its policies which reveals how much such activists were often talking out of total ignorance and their upper/upper-middle-class asses.  :p

This is even more blatantly obvious in the case of the Communist Party membership in China where people mainly join in the hopes of getting rich ASAP through networking with fellow businesspeople and by creating connections with key bureaucrats who are on the take.  Funny how I recently saw a documentary about a group of CCP inductees who were making wishes such as “becoming a billionaire” or “hope my kiddies gain admission to topflight US/European graduate schools like Harvard, Cambridge, or the Sorbonne”.  LOL

Comment #20: exholt  on  06/10  at  01:11 PM

To make it worse, “authenticity” is not just a lie, but it’s also a black hole.  It eats up everything around it, including those things that are real, like quality and effectiveness.

This.

“Authenticity” is like the faintest stars in the sky: you can glimpse it out of the corner of your eye, but if you look at it straight it disappears. Whether or not it actually exists isn’t important, the important thing is, you’ll never see it in front of you. The search for it will always become pathological and damaging.

Comment #21: atheist  on  06/10  at  01:14 PM

I was pretty dumb about this stuff as a teenaged metalhead.

But at least if 15-year-old me traveled through time and wrote an article for the Times about how MIA sucked because she wasn’t at least as heavy as “...And Justice For All”-era Metallica, it would have been more fun to read than this. I would have quoted extensively from Anthrax lyrics, for one.

Comment #22: witless chum  on  06/10  at  01:19 PM

I am so out of it I don’t even know who MIA is.  Just this week I found out that apparently, there is a person named “the situation” which cleared up some ongoing confusion for me.

I feel old

Comment #23: JennyLI  on  06/10  at  01:27 PM

This was great, thanks.

Comment #24: Tim Jones-Yelvington  on  06/10  at  01:29 PM

Also, this Hirschberg piece is like any other where some critic disses a musician for being inauthentic, or too female, or too political. Step back a little, and we are left with an less-talented individual criticizing a more-talented individual. In five years I’ll still be listening to “Galang” or “World Town”, and I still won’t much care what Hirschberg thinks about anything.

Comment #25: atheist  on  06/10  at  01:34 PM

But at least if 15-year-old me traveled through time and wrote an article for the Times about how MIA sucked because she wasn’t at least as heavy as “...And Justice For All”-era Metallica, it would have been more fun to read than this.

That would have been fun to read period.

Comment #26: Richard Goblin  on  06/10  at  01:34 PM

Good god, this is an amazing subject.  I’ve always loved this blog because of its intellect and courage, but I could spend the rest of the year trying to write out all the things this one goddam post has slapped loose in my brain.

Thanks, Amanda.  You rock!

Comment #27: entrails  on  06/10  at  01:40 PM

BlackBloc, your comment is a perfect example of why authenticity trolling fails.  I have one question for you:

How wealthy is too wealthy?  What’s the cut-off number in your head?  What if someone else’s differs?

This is the black hole I’m talking about.  Trying to answer this question will eat up your entire existence.  It will snuff you out eventually.  Think of radical feminists who determined that men had too much privilege to really be feminist allies.  Men got kicked out.  Then women who slept with men.  Then women who associated with men at all. This ended up including women who had sons.  And by the time everyone was kicked out, there weren’t enough people left to do anything meaningful at all.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  01:43 PM

I’ll go right out and say it: you can’t have genuinely socialist politics if you’re wealthy. You can wish you did, for instance if you happen to be a self-hating class traitor (the self-evidence of the bankruptcy of capitalism on an ethical level can certainly lead to that amongst the more sensitive bourgeois kids). But class privilege will distort your understanding of it. People always ultimatly pursue their self-interest, which is partly their class interest. That is why every bourgeois socialist out there is a state socialist or an orthodox Marxist. They have condescension for the poor which stems from their class upbringing, and the very thought of letting the proles run the show (like they would under, say, anarcho-syndicalism) without a hierarchy from above telling them how to be good communists gives them fits.

Oh please.  Saint-Simon was an aristocrat who was descended from Charlemagne.  Fourier was the son of a wealthy businessman.  Bakunin was an aristocrat.  Georges Sorel was a middle class engineer who won the Legion of Honor.  Proudhon, it is true, was from relatively humble origins, but socialism and anarcho-syndicalism (which you appear to have arbitrarily defined as the only “true” form of socialism) were basically invented by middle and upper class people.  I suppose you can say that they were all self-hating class traitors, but that’s fucking ridiculous.

Comment #29: jlk7e  on  06/10  at  01:49 PM

consider: it was the whole fraudulent “village people” claim of al gore’s & john kerry’s “inauthenticity” that got us stuck with george bush for 8 years, as if bush was a just a good ol’ boy made good.

They did it to Clinton to, who was actually a good ol’ boy made good.  They tried to do it to Obama.  He’s too black and not black enough.  Too Christian and not Christian enough.  Too radical and too milquetoast at the same time.  But mostly what Clinton, Gore, Kerry and Obama are, that offends the traditional media darlings, are Democrats.  Bob Dole and John “I never said I was a maverick” McCain, Shrubby or the Queen of Wassila are all authentic because they’re Republicans.

Comment #30: libdevil  on  06/10  at  01:53 PM

People do this so often about everything. Ani DiFranco took a bunch of heat for talking on stage about the importance of environmental action while she and her roadies toured around in big gas guzzling vehicles. I don’t know what they expected her to do. Stay home, I guess. Al Gore gets it all the time for flying around in planes.

Comment #31: Jenny Dreadful  on  06/10  at  01:59 PM

I kind of disagree with the authenticity thing, to an extent. I think music has a lot of Don Drapers who tell people things they enjoy believing about themselves. I always figured good art should show you things about your self that you don’t like to believe and I dislike the infantilizing effect of art that lets you off the hook by flattering your self perceptions. I guess it depends on how much you listen to lyrics and how many friends you had who figured they owned a Radiohead album so they had had their fight with The Man.

I guess I’m trying to say if an artist has political content in their music I would much prefer if they actually had some notion about what they are speaking beyond how can I use this to get these people waving their hands. I care less about the background the person is coming from. Getting shot did not make 50cent a better rapper.

And the thought strikes me as well that music isn’t just about the feeling. I’m thinking specifically of an article you wrote ages ago (or was it Jesse?) about republicans being ridiculous by saying that conservative was the new punk. I mean if its a feeling its up for grabs isn’t it? But it doesn’t seem that way. And what if the feeling comes from a lie? I don’t mean in a you can’t sing country because you are from Brooklyn kind of way but like the two goons in clown suits who pretend they don’t know what a magnet is because the intended audience of the song is stupid kind of way. A certain percentage of the population probably felt some measure of joy when listening to that and it wasn’t because it was such a good song it was because they hate eggheads.

Comment #32: pharmakos  on  06/10  at  02:00 PM

Which would almost be an interesting point, if it wasn’t in service, 90% of the time, of taking someone out because they’re doing better than you.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  02:00 PM

#28

Think of radical feminists who determined that men had too much privilege to really be feminist allies.  Men got kicked out.  Then women who slept with men.  Then…

One gets the pointless authenticity trolling in a lot of left-wing-y type politics. World Can’t Wait, I’m looking at you. The Spartacist League is even further down that road.

I sometimes think left wingers fight over authenticity as a way of distracting themselves from how bad things are, and how far the real world is from their ideal world. This is somewhat understandable, but its also counterproductive. You protect your ideals, but they aren’t really the valuable part.

Comment #34: atheist  on  06/10  at  02:03 PM

This ties into one of my pet peeves: the idea that you have to be “authentic” or “keep it real” as an artist.  MIA is a musician.  She’s an artist who makes music. 

Which was why I never saw the NYT Magazine article as a “hit piece.” MIA came across as a talented but somewhat annoying art school grad perhaps with a well developed narcissistic side: basically about what I’d expect. Is it a hit piece because it wasn’t a fawning profile of MIA’s depth?

Comment #35: Tyro  on  06/10  at  02:05 PM

No its clearly a hit piece.  Look at this sentence: “Her mother, Maya claims, got a job as a seamstress, hand-sewing on medals for the royal family. “She worked for the queen for 25 years,”  The verb “claims” casts doubt on the truth of the statement.  Either Maya is lying or she isn’t.  Hirschberg uses claims to make it seem like Maya’s lying for no other purpose than to discredit her.

Comment #36: Robert  on  06/10  at  02:12 PM

Thank you so much for calling out “authenticity” as a racket! It was a quest for “authenticity”, in part, that did indeed keep us from electing Al Gore and John Kerry (thank you, cpinva). It was a quest for “authenticity” that led John Edwards to throw away his life. It’s a quest for “authenticity” that leads millions of us to disrupt our families and financial situations, shelling out millions of dollars to any guru promising to make us happier, more likeable, or more prosperous.

I think the “all politicians are liars” mindset helped give us Bush. Because we lost the ability to tell REAL lying, dishonor and corruption when it was staring us in the face. Even now, we still get worked up over non-scandals like the White House offering Sestak and Romanoff jobs, which is not dishonorable at all, but merely looks so.
I’m disappointed; I would’ve thought we would have recognized… well, authentic corruption after watching the Bush admin’s blatant abuse of the Constitution.

Moreover, this mindset is probably more a factor than we think in our collective political non-involvement. Because after all, we don’t want to be inauthentic scumbags, like all politicians are.

Comment #37: Lucy Montrose  on  06/10  at  02:13 PM

“The verb “claims” casts doubt on the truth of the statement.  Either Maya is lying or she isn’t.”

Or, if you don’t feel like verifying/can’t verify the assertion, you can use a more neutral construction like “Her mother, Maya says, got a job as a seamstress” or “Her mother, Maya tells me, got a job as a seamstress.” When you go around slapping “claims” on things that do not appear to be in serious dispute, you’re either being a dick or trying to communicate that you do not feel your source is particularly trustworthy on this point.

Comment #38: preying mantis  on  06/10  at  02:30 PM

AnglScarlett @ 23:

I’d never heard of her either. I simply admit and embrace that I am old, out-of-touch and oblivious. I consider freedom from having to be aware of pop culture as one of the great pleasures and privileges of getting older.

Which is not to say there isn’t value in pop culture. Of course there is. I’m just content to let other people wade through the muck and find the jewels, while I focus on other things.

Comment #39: Phoebe Fay  on  06/10  at  02:38 PM

BlackBloc, your comment is a perfect example of why authenticity trolling fails.

I did not say anything about authenticity. Authenticity is an artistic concept. Art is not politics.

How wealthy is too wealthy?  What’s the cut-off number in your head?  What if someone else’s differs?

It’s not about numbers. It’s about relations to the means of productions. Capitalists own the means of production. Workers don’t, even the wealthiest workers (white collar workers in highly skilled jobs, for instance), and their place in society is to sell their labor to those who own the means of production, thus denying them agency in their own workplace.

Think of radical feminists who determined that men had too much privilege to really be feminist allies.

The interests of men and women are not irreconciliable. The class interests of capitalists and proletarians are.

Saint-Simon was an aristocrat who was descended from Charlemagne. Fourier was the son of a wealthy businessman.  Bakunin was an aristocrat.  Georges Sorel was a middle class engineer who won the Legion of Honor.  Proudhon, it is true, was from relatively humble origins, but socialism and anarcho-syndicalism (which you appear to have arbitrarily defined as the only “true” form of socialism) were basically invented by middle and upper class people.  I suppose you can say that they were all self-hating class traitors, but that’s fucking ridiculous.

Aristocrats were not bourgeois/capitalists. Their class interests were not the same. In an era where they were rapidly becoming declasse, they lashed out with their own ideologies, which Marx basically skewered as feudal socialism in the Communist Manifesto. Saint-Simonism is basically feudal Christianity noblesse oblige, and it certainly does nothing to demonstrate the falsehood of my categorization of non-proletarian socialists as state socialists by nature. Bakunin was declasse, part of a bankrupt noble family, and he lived in poverty when he moved out of Russia (class is not a fixed element of birth, but based on the objective material conditions). And Fourier and Sorel were merely theorists, not revolutionaries. Actual socialism is born out of praxis, not mere ideological contemplation.

And socialism was not invented by middle and upper class people. Socialism was written about and popularized (and distorted) by middle and upper class people. Socialism was created by the direct action and struggles of the people themselves. The reason why all the theorists we know about are upper and middle class is the same reason why authors of the time just happen to be all men. Proletarian thinkers have been erased by bourgeois history as thorougly, one might even say even more so, than women thinkers have been erased by male history.

Comment #40: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  02:43 PM

The whole demand for “authenticity” is not unlike the demand for female beauty. The world demands that you have it, but you have to achieve without effort. If you have to work for it, or think about it, or do any planning around it, it doesn’t count. Just like women are supposed to meet all standards of beauty without spending any time or money on hair products, gym memberships or make-up.

It’s just another great catch-22 to keep ___fill-in-the-blank___ in their places.

Comment #41: Phoebe Fay  on  06/10  at  02:44 PM

Aristocrats were not bourgeois/capitalists

True. Friedrich Engels, on the other hand, was both bourgeois and a capitalist. As I recall, Marx kinda liked and respected the guy, despite his “inauthenticity”—enough to give him equal billing.

Perhaps, though, Marxist theory was created by neither Marx nor Engles, since neither were involved in direct action but were merely “theorists.”

Comment #42: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  03:00 PM

Hirschberg’s suggestion that one cannot really have leftist politics while being wealthy

Has she perhaps never heard of the Marquis de Lafayette or maybe Teddy Kennedy?  It is perhaps a bit hypocritical to be a rich leftist, but scarcely impossible.  This is whole thing is so stupid as to make my head hurt.

Comment #43: DrDick  on  06/10  at  03:06 PM

But class privilege will distort your understanding of it.

Shaw wrote about it in Man and Superman:

OCTAVIUS. [earnestly] But there’s a great truth at the bottom of what he says. I believe most intensely in the dignity of labor.

STRAKER. [unimpressed] That’s because you never done any Mr Robinson.  My business is to do away with labor. You’ll get more out of me and a machine than you will out of twenty laborers, and not so much to drink either.

Comment #44: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/10  at  03:07 PM

But class privilege will distort your understanding of it.

Of course, just as poor eyesight will distort one’s view of the world. Fortunately, some clever fellow invented eyeglasses.

Actual socialism is born out of praxis, not mere ideological contemplation.

And the praxis springs forth fully formed from the head of Zeus?

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  03:14 PM

The whole demand for “authenticity” is not unlike the demand for female beauty. The world demands that you have it, but you have to achieve without effort.

Correct to a degree. It’s not that the achievement has to come without effort, but rather from a very narrow definition of effort—one that often requires possession of an immutable characteristic (e.g. accident of birth) or fulfillment of some purist’s unrealistic and one-size-fits-all expectations.

Comment #46: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  03:21 PM

#46

Also the way both seem to disappear when looked at with an overly-critical eye.

Comment #47: atheist  on  06/10  at  03:22 PM

And the praxis springs forth fully formed from the head of Zeus?

Facts precede the ideal. First the apple fell on Newton’s head. THEN he ‘invented’ gravity. Same with Marx. All he did was pen down the explanation of what others were doing prior. He didn’t invent anything, just like I’m not inventing anything by explaining these facts to you.

Ideology is always only the after the fact rationalization of what was the inevitable result of existing social forces.

Comment #48: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:25 PM

I agree that the “authenticity” thing is silly.  On the other hand, Arulpragasam has been saying stupid things about Sri Lanka for a long time.  Naming the first record after her father, using all the Tiger imagery, refusing to condemn the Tamil Tigers, and describing the situation as the innocent Tamil minority being oppressed by the Sinhalese…all bogus.  Hinting that she’s in danger in Brentwood?  Plz.  All of this makes her intensely irritating.

Comment #49: FL  on  06/10  at  03:27 PM

Friedrich Engels, on the other hand, was both bourgeois and a capitalist. As I recall, Marx kinda liked and respected the guy

The results of letting these bourgeois influences into Marxism weren’t exactly stellar. Where’s the classless society again?

All they have to show for themselves is a pile of bones in Russia and China, and declawed (and bankrupt) state socialist regimes in Europe that are slowly dying against the resurgence of right-wing fascism and neoliberal economic policies.

Comment #50: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:32 PM

Trying to be “authentic” never works.  You can strive and strive, but there’s always something about you that’s going to be a little too posh for the haters.  Having been a music fan and in left-leaning politics for roughly forever, I’ve come around to seeing how “authenticity” is basically a weapon used to knock people down.

This, for me, is the crux of the issue.  Standards of authenticity in art, politics, or whatever end up being so exacting such that no one ever meets them.  Those who judge authenticity don’t appear to have the self-awareness to understand how they fall short.

It’s funny, really…I work for a labor union and our leadership is coming under criticism from a group of members who use the language of authenticity and anarcho-syndicalist concepts.  Yet all of these people are highly educated and, dare I say it, bourgeois.  Furthermore, they have the luxury of demanding some sort of ideal organization, but don’t have to deal with the consequences in the meantime.  Really, they strike me (right now) as a putative Leninist vanguard.

Comment #51: Linnaeus  on  06/10  at  03:32 PM

C’mon, can’t we have a discussion about authenticity in pop music, instead of devoting the thread to arguing with Blackbloc about socialism?  Nobody’s going to change anybody’s mind in that conversation.

I remember reading an interview with R.E.M. back in their heyday in which the idea of “honesty” in music came up.  Peter Buck said, “Honesty is a strange word. By definition, if you’re going to get up onstage and sing songs, you’re probably pretty bogus.” I think he has a point.  People that aren’t inclined to put on an act are less likely to have, you know, a successful act.  It’s part of the whole thing.

A related (though less directly political) preoccupation with authenticity (or is it originality, or is that so different of a concern?) keeps coming up in discussions of Lady Gaga.  People who are nostalgic for the 1980’s can’t get over the way she apes Madonna, as though Madonna’s act was 100% original.  Having pretty much no interest in that particular notion of originality myself, I mostly get annoyed when people discuss Gaga as a counterfeit Madonna because they’re ignoring the stuff she’s simultaneously stealing from Elton John, David Bowie, and a long list of other artists.

Comment #52: Dustin L  on  06/10  at  03:33 PM

#52

A related (though less directly political) preoccupation with authenticity (or is it originality, or is that so different of a concern?) keeps coming up in discussions of Lady Gaga.

Originality is the art of concealing your sources.

Comment #53: atheist  on  06/10  at  03:36 PM

I totally forgot to actually address the original topic in my previous comment.  I agree with Amanda about M.I.A. and the article.  She’s pretty full of it, but the degree to which she’s being called on being full of it has more to do with gender and our cultural need to tear stars (and especially female stars) down as soon as we’ve built them up. 

Also, I would totally eat some truffle fries if somebody offered me some.  Never tried them, but ever since reading Hirschberg’s article, I really want to.

Comment #54: Dustin L  on  06/10  at  03:37 PM

Yet all of these people are highly educated and, dare I say it, bourgeois.

The own factories? They are major stockholders in a corporation?

Being educated does not make you any less of a prole. Prole vs bourgeois is a matter of who owns the workplace.

Comment #55: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:38 PM

Gracchus has a very sharp needle for blacbloc’s bloviating.—-bb, ‘praxis’?  Really?  Dood.

Comment #56: Eric_RoM  on  06/10  at  03:39 PM

I don’t see a problem with art that displays clear influences from other artists.  I liken it to my work as an historian; nothing I do is 100% original, and that’s okay as long as I acknowledge that.

Comment #57: Linnaeus  on  06/10  at  03:39 PM

Also, I would totally eat some truffle fries if somebody offered me some.

I would as well.

“Nothing is too good for the working class.”
- Rudolph Rocker

Comment #58: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:39 PM

The own factories? They are major stockholders in a corporation?

Being educated does not make you any less of a prole. Prole vs bourgeois is a matter of who owns the workplace.

Point taken; I was using the term more broadly, but I do agree that a lot of people are closer than they think to being workers and not owners, regardless of their credentials.  I would flesh out my statement a bit more, but I don’t want to derail this thread any further.

Comment #59: Linnaeus  on  06/10  at  03:45 PM

@Eric_RoM: This may help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis_(process)

Comment #60: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:49 PM

Anyway, back on topic. Authenticity to me is a silly concept. A person is who they are. They can’t be more themselves than they already are, and to attack someone because they are not being themselves is sort of a non-sensical argument.

Art is not a political act, it’s in the realm of aesthetic. My nitpicking of Amanda’s statement which was not even central to her point does not change the fact I mostly agree with her understanding of this hit job on MIA. Does anybody try to attack ICP because they’re not actually clowns, or actually insane? smile (Though with regards to ‘magnets, how do they work?’, maybe they ARE insane, or at least insanely dumb.)

Comment #61: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  03:54 PM

Facts precede the ideal. First the apple fell on Newton’s head. THEN he ‘invented’ gravity.

So you’re claiming that before the apple fell, Newton (or Hooke, or Galileo, or other natural philosophers) gave no thought to why apples fell? Or that the phenomenon of apples falling somehow was regarded as magic?

Newton’s theory of gravitation isn’t an “ideal,” it’s an explanation. And a “fact” is something created or made by humans (literally—facta est), preferably supported by empirical evidence based in reality.

Same with Marx. All he did was pen down the explanation of what others were doing prior.

Yep, Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto—mere trifles. Without them, history would have preceded just as it did.

Political action is next to useless without political theory, and vice-versa. Both inform the other. Take the theory out of the equation and we see the result: some of your less well-read comrades thinking that smashing the window of a small local business is “striking a blow against global capitalism, ma-a-an.” Nothing more authentic to the revolutionary than broken glass, amirite?

The results of letting these bourgeois influences into Marxism weren’t exactly stellar. Where’s the classless society again?

Right along the state-less society: in the same magic wonderland of political extremism where Iraq is the Arab Israel and women get abortions for fun.

Marx gets the lion’s share of celebrity, but at the time he and Engels were equal partners in their intellectual collaboration. The wicked “bourgeois influences” you mention include rational explanations of why capitalists ran their mills in the dark Satanic manner, because Marx (and serious practioners of the theory) understood that painting them as depraved moustache-twirling boogeymen really didn’t explain the full reality of the situation.

All they have to show for themselves is a pile of bones in Russia and China, and declawed (and bankrupt) state socialist regimes in Europe that are slowly dying against the resurgence of right-wing fascism and neoliberal economic policies.

Marx’s works are to the USSR and the PRC as the Bible is to Xtian fantasists: stretch enough and one can make any given passage justify one’s greedhead or power-mongering agendas. And during their heyday in the second half of the 20th century, the European state socialist regimes you mentioned were regularly decried by Marxists (both practical and theorists) as not being pure or authentic enough. A no-win situation.

This is why the struggle for authenticity is a mug’s game.

Comment #62: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  03:58 PM

On the other hand, Arulpragasam has been saying stupid things about Sri Lanka for a long time.  Naming the first record after her father, using all the Tiger imagery, refusing to condemn the Tamil Tigers, and describing the situation as the innocent Tamil minority being oppressed by the Sinhalese…all bogus.

All very true. Hirschberg’s error was not calling her out on these issues—an understandable one, since Hirschberg apparently knows less about the Tamil situation than MIA does, which is saying something. But then, what can you expect of an entertainment “journalist” who’s more interested in celebrity image and new trends that are actually months if not years old.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:04 PM

One gets the pointless authenticity trolling in a lot of left-wing-y type politics. World Can’t Wait, I’m looking at you. The Spartacist League is even further down that road.

I don’t think this is limited to the left-wing, especially judging by how similar levels of trolling also exist in extreme-right wing groups in the present like the Tea Party or historical ones like the Nazi party where even highly ranked members like Joseph Goebbels faced problems with having his authenticity questioned because of his education and intellectual background. 

As for the Spartacist League, sounds like they are following the standard Leninist programme of depanding ideological compliance with the party-line….a programme which was SOP in nearly every Communist and other organization ran along Marxist-Leninist lines. 

I sometimes think left wingers fight over authenticity as a way of distracting themselves from how bad things are, and how far the real world is from their ideal world. This is somewhat understandable, but its also counterproductive. You protect your ideals, but they aren’t really the valuable part.

There is also the simple possibility that people in general hate to be lectured to on behaving virtuously, especially if the lecturer concerned is revealed through his/her lifestyle as a complete hypocrite who believed s(he) could exempt him/herself from the demands s(he) makes of others solely because of his/her wealth or other marks of “superior status”. 

Exhibits to this include Governor Mark Sanford, John Ensign, Larry Craig, etc…....

Comment #64: exholt  on  06/10  at  04:07 PM

I don’t see a problem with art that displays clear influences from other artists.  I liken it to my work as an historian; nothing I do is 100% original, and that’s okay as long as I acknowledge that.

I dont think anyone is criticizing MIA for her pop act—it’s the stuff she brings along with it.

The comparison to Lady Gaga is a good one for the difference in the way she’s treated: no one gives Lady Gaga flak for the fact that she grew up as a rich kid from an elite Manhattan private school who attended NYU and had her parents pay big $$$ tuition bills until she dropped out to record music at a studio in suburban NJ as well as lower Manhattan. Her music and art are essentially about pop music itself. We know that “Lady Gaga” is an “act” and she’s not really claiming otherwise. 

You might claim that MIA is being set up to fail because the industry demands an “act” to be taken seriously and then tears down those same artists because their acts aren’t authentic enough, but the sin lies in the fact that MIA had to create an “authentic persona” to begin with (even if she believes that she really IS that persona), not that a journalist pointed out the incongruity of it.

Comment #65: Tyro  on  06/10  at  04:11 PM

Yep, Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto—mere trifles. Without them, history would have preceded just as it did.

Pretty much, yeah, just like going back in time and killing Hitler would not have stopped the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust. History is made by social movements, not individuals. Somebody would have written something similar to Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto. In fact, many people already did write things that are similar. These were expressions of a movement, not the originator of such. I know, this revelation doesn’t sit well with American individualism.

Political action is next to useless without political theory, and vice-versa.

That’s sort of what the word ‘praxis’ means. I do not attack left-wing intellectuals. I attack left-wing intellectuals who are not themselves involved in the struggle. At best what they can be is trend historians (and then they might be blinded to what is the important characteristics of what they’re studying, because they are not down there in the trenches). They can’t create anything of use, because they are not faced with the practical experiences that comes from being a revolutionary (or an activist, if you want to be less ‘extreme’ about it).

Comment #66: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  04:24 PM

“I would totally eat some truffle fries if somebody offered me some.”

Truffle fries are frickin’ AWESOME! There’s a place near my house work that has them on their happy hour menu. Get them if you can!

Comment #67: Mark  on  06/10  at  04:29 PM

#64

There is also the simple possibility that people in general hate to be lectured to on behaving virtuously

That’s certainly true but I’m approaching the question from another angle. Why do some left wingers, and some political actors in general, question each others’ authenticity? It would seem to be counterproductive for members of a movement to constantly attack each others credibility.

My theory: the people who do this most often aren’t interested in producing change, they are interested in defending ideals. Society becomes a play where they are the hero. Instead of attacking their actual enemies, other movementarians become inadvertent scapegoats for their frustration.

Case in point, “The Sparticist League”. No matter how left wing you might get, they are more left wing than that. In this way, their morality play is assured of lasting a long time, because the world cannot possibly get as left wing as they are.

Comment #68: atheist  on  06/10  at  04:30 PM

That’s certainly true but I’m approaching the question from another angle. Why do some left wingers, and some political actors in general, question each others’ authenticity? It would seem to be counterproductive for members of a movement to constantly attack each others credibility.

The Iron Law of Institutions: people are more concerned about their own power within an institution than the absolute power of the institution itself.

Comment #69: Tyro  on  06/10  at  04:37 PM

Somebody would have written something similar to Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto.

So you acknowledge that “mere theory” is indeed a prerequisite to organised political action?

Would you further acknowledge that “mere theory” is often the product of individuals rather than a product of committee, and that the individuals we’re discussing in this universe are people like Marx and Engels or Hitler?

I’m not arguing soley on behalf of the Great Man school of history, mind you. But individuals play their part.

That’s sort of what the word ‘praxis’ means. I do not attack left-wing intellectuals. I attack left-wing intellectuals who are not themselves involved in the struggle.

Define “involved.” Must Marx and Engels be out in the streets, throwing bottles? Lenin and Mao seemed to think that Marx was “involved” in the struggle.

At best what they can be is trend historians

Apparently, in Marx’s case, an historian of trends yet to come (including the perversion of his own theories). By your terms, that makes him even more impressive.

They can’t create anything of use, because they are not faced with the practical experiences that comes from being a revolutionary (or an activist, if you want to be less ‘extreme’ about it).

I’d say that good-faith explanations of the mindset of one’s opponent are of great use, especially to a revolutionary.

Comment #70: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:39 PM

You might claim that MIA is being set up to fail because the industry demands an “act” to be taken seriously and then tears down those same artists because their acts aren’t authentic enough, but the sin lies in the fact that MIA had to create an “authentic persona” to begin with (even if she believes that she really IS that persona), not that a journalist pointed out the incongruity of it.

This ‘authenticity’ thing is a weapon. MIA would not have been given a podium by the cultural producers in the first place if she had been seen as fully authentic. By definition, anyone who can get to the heights of popularity that MIA attained is compromised politically. It’s similar to the selection that news or education institutions do, as put forward in Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent.

Now once she’s there, she’s supposed to remain subservient because of the threat that she might get attacked on her ‘authenticity’ (which no other pop artist has, either) if she doesn’t. It’s a leash that the cultural producers have in order to maintain social order. As long as the whole thing remains an act, she’s fine. They tolerate the illusion of dissent, because cultural producers live on diversity (all country music all the time would bore even the wingnuttiest wingnut) even though there’s a second pressure to produce only culture that accords itself to the values of the powerful. But if they sense an artist might be trying to get away from that tight control, they can always pull out the ‘authenticity’ weapon. Nobody thinks Dany Filth (of Cradle of Filth) actually kills people in the name of dark gods. It’s an act. It’s also such a patently ridiculous act that he doesn’t risk running afoul of the cultural producers, and he can’t really be attacked on ‘authenticity’ (except by the sort of people who take metal way too seriously). But if your persona is political, you’re walking a tightrope, and if they think you’re trying to be too serious about it all, they’ll cut you off your line of support and let you fall.

Comment #71: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  04:41 PM

My favorite artist response to the “authenticity”/“sell out” bullshit is Tool’s “Hooker with a Penis” and the futility of the whole “authenticity” battle because not only is it impossible to reach an ideal without starving to death, but the people most obsessed with it are the ones who are the least authentic themselves.

Personally, I just hate the dumb bad interpretation of “the personal is political” to mean you can’t be an X unless you live your life with the maximum personal sacrifices, because it just burns people out of what is important and removes the point of all the little stuff. You should think about whether or not you want to change your name not because you “owe feminism” that and if you fail you are a bad feminist, but because you should really think about whether you want to give up your name so easily for you.

Comment #72: Cerberus  on  06/10  at  04:44 PM

I’m not very interested in the art=authenticity discussion… but the blac bloc/gracchus back and forth about marxism is really fascinating to me. I’m not pointing this out because I think other people should agree with me, but just to counter whoever it was upthread who said the opposite. Interests vary; if Amanda doesn’t like the hijacking, of course it should stop, but otherwise, perhaps you could skip BB and Gracchus’ comments the way I’m skipping everything but.

Comment #73: Mandolin  on  06/10  at  04:45 PM

My theory: the people who do this most often aren’t interested in producing change, they are interested in defending ideals. Society becomes a play where they are the hero.

This is the core definition of “ideological fantasist,” per Lee Harris:

My first encounter with this particular kind of fantasy occurred when I was in college in the late sixties. A friend of mine and I got into a heated argument. Although we were both opposed to the Vietnam War, we discovered that we differed considerably on what counted as permissible forms of anti-war protest. To me the point of such protest was simple — to turn people against the war. Hence anything that was counterproductive to this purpose was politically irresponsible and should be severely censured. My friend thought otherwise; in fact, he was planning to join what by all accounts was to be a massively disruptive demonstration in Washington, and which in fact became one.

My friend did not disagree with me as to the likely counterproductive effects of such a demonstration. Instead, he argued that this simply did not matter. His answer was that even if it was counterproductive, even if it turned people against war protesters, indeed even if it made them more likely to support the continuation of the war, he would still participate in the demonstration and he would do so for one simple reason — because it was, in his words, good for his soul.

What I saw as a political act was not, for my friend, any such thing. It was not aimed at altering the minds of other people or persuading them to act differently. Its whole point was what it did for him.

Comment #74: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:46 PM

the sin lies in the fact that MIA had to create an “authentic persona” to begin with (even if she believes that she really IS that persona), not that a journalist pointed out the incongruity of it.

Except Hirschberg isn’t doing that—as an Industry hanger-on/parasite, she buys 100% into the expectation that certain artists have to create that “authentic persona,” but can’t even coherently criticise the particular (and very real) flaws in MIA’s persona. Instead she falls back on the lazy implication that someone who’s wealthy or famous (i.e. an Industry success story) automatically becomes a total fraud in terms of a bogus conception of authenticity. If she disliked Lady Gaga, she’d provide an alternate Kobayashi Maru scenario: “are you actually crazy or just a fraud?” What remains constant is the denial that inorganic authenticity (AKA BS) is part and parcel of showbiz.

Unfortunately (as Tyro was discussing) that showbiz mentality where one must be the banner-waving hero of one’s own drama, infects political activism as well.

Comment #75: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:50 PM

I have to point out that under the labor/capital view, M.I.A. is actually labor—-she creates the product.  The record company is capital.

Comment #76: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  04:53 PM

So you acknowledge that “mere theory” is indeed a prerequisite to organised political action?

I do not agree it is a prerequisite. I consider it a PRODUCT of organized political action. First comes action, then theory. Theory refines action, which produces more theory. But the start of the process is never theory. Or if it ever is, it is not good theory, and therefore cannot produce good action. As much as we’d want to have the blueprints before us prior to action, it is by direct experimentation that we can build these blueprints, meaning we will always have to start from action.

Comment #77: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  04:55 PM

#74

Gracchus, right. It is important to note that you can never really separate the “good for the soul” aspects of activism from the “producing practical effect” aspects, though. And any activism looks crazy to someone. Yet may still have a valid point.

Certain folks just make me wonder, what is their game?

Comment #78: atheist  on  06/10  at  04:56 PM

I have to point out that under the labor/capital view, M.I.A. is actually labor—-she creates the product.  The record company is capital.

Yes, which is why what I’m writing is purely a digression and does not in fact impact the argument in your post at all. I just tend to have these nitpicky tendencies. I only have an issue with one sentence which I didn’t even think was that relevant to your main point anyway.

Comment #79: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  04:57 PM

the blac bloc/gracchus back and forth about marxism is really fascinating to me.

The detailed political-philosophical bull session is a bit off topic, but as I tried to explain in #75 it is related. One we reject Hirschberg’s BS Hollywood version of authenticity (while acknowledging its powerful influence) we’re able to start having serious discussions about the topic.

Comment #80: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  04:59 PM

Also, @Graccus: I never said “mere theory”. I said “mere theorists”, and that was about Fourier and Sorel. I do not seek to diminish the need for theory. I seek to diminish the need for *theorists*. Like Kropotkin, I seek the elimination of the job division between manual and intellectual labor in the workplace, so I would be a poor anarchist if I did not seek to end the division in the movement as well.

Comment #81: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  05:00 PM

Also… we have experience with people who start from theory and then take it to action. We call those Libertarians. They think they can start from first principles and derive their politics from there. And we always find them lacking because of massive blind spots with regard to race, gender and class issues, blind spots they have because they stubbornely decide that if the world doesn’t fit into their theory the problem is with the world and not their theory.

Comment #82: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  05:07 PM

I do not agree it is a prerequisite. I consider it a PRODUCT of organized political action. First comes action, then theory.

As I recall, Lenin read a bit of Marx and wrote a little commentary on it before he set off on his endeavour in 1917. His political action was against a set of theses (e.g. Russian monarchy, Russian imperialism, etc.), but it wasn’t like the man was just flailing about—he had an anti-thesis, based in a fairly comprehensive theoretical and analytical work which he and his comrades cited frequently.

Comment #83: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  05:08 PM

Ah, yet another idiot at the NYT think’s she’s the beginning and ending of culture in America.

I get so sick of they NYT and how they ruined the Boston Globe with all of this “we are the shit and we will shit on everything” shit.  Hirshberg is only the tip of the arrogant stupid iceberg at this self-important bloviating rag.

Comment #84: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  05:13 PM

Disclosure: I did the interview with Kathleen in Bust.

It’s ironic that you lament other people using “authenticity” to discredit MIA, only to go on to posit your own definition of “authenticity” and accuse Hanna of not living up to it.

Because she is honest about her experiences—which aren’t just about her being a musician—she was also an activist, she ran a club, she worked at a rape crisis hotline—and has talked about some of the negative aspects of her journey through riot grrrl and the 90s, you accuse her of ignoring “what is pure and authentic about music, which is the feeling it gives you.”

You then say, “The smart artists are the ones who basically tell the authenticity police to fuck off, and refuse to believe in authenticity.” So she’s not smart? She’s supposed to whitewash her life and talk about how 100% perfect it is to be on tour all the time, to be dealing with people from both her own subculture and the mainstream questioning her—because otherwise she’s not being “authentic” to music and “the feeling that it gives you?”

Give me a fucking break. It’s hard. It’s hard to be a woman in the music world, it’s hard to be a woman in any world. It’s hard to be a feminist. It is also awesome. But spare me the “authenticity” bullshit about “pure experiences,” because that comes from some kind of privileged escapist urge I can’t even understand.

Comment #85: mikki  on  06/10  at  05:13 PM

I do not seek to diminish the need for theory. I seek to diminish the need for *theorists*.

So the only legitimate labour going on in the workplaces of revolutionary movements is manual labour? That creates a very broad definition of “revolutionary movement,” especially when you claim that the “manual labour” of the movement originates and defines that movement.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  05:15 PM

Also… we have experience with people who start from theory and then take it to action. We call those Libertarians

Oh, please. Lenin started from theory and took it to action. So did Mao. So did Hitler (informed as he was by Mussolini). So did the Framers back in the 18th century, who felt compelled to write a certain Declaration (grounded in the work of earlier Enlightnment philosophers) before they took action.

What’s unique to Libertarians is not starting from theory and taking it to action, but that their theory, based as it is in fantasy and delusions of personal grandeur, is even less suited to action than the more reality-based economic/political analysis of Marx and Engels.

Comment #87: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  05:23 PM

#85

mikki, I don’t think the post says what you think it says about Kathleen Hanna.

Comment #88: atheist  on  06/10  at  05:30 PM

Mikki, can you read?  Or do you just assume and play a standard tape-recorded rant?

Or are you just on another planet where you don’t get the signal and make things up to fill the gaps?

Comment #89: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  05:32 PM

So the only legitimate labour going on in the workplaces of revolutionary movements is manual labour?

If I was as uncharitable to your words as you are to mind, I would say “So the only legitimate thinking going on in revolutionary movements is in its theorists?”

You misunderstand. We seek the end of the intellectual/manual division of labor. You are too used to populists (of the right mostly, though also on the left) who are resentful of intellectuals and attack *thinking* itself as suspect because our society has decided to artificially divide manual from intellectual labor and to value only one (in economic terms… I am aware that because of anti-intellectual resentiment, intellectual labor may not be culturally valued as much as manual labor). I think intellectual labor is so important that it shouldn’t be left to only a few to have the privilege to do it. I also think manual labor is so important that nobody should shirk the responsability of doing it, either.

Comment #90: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  05:46 PM

My theory: the people who do this most often aren’t interested in producing change, they are interested in defending ideals. Society becomes a play where they are the hero. Instead of attacking their actual enemies, other movementarians become inadvertent scapegoats for their frustration.

There is also another possibility that they want to ensure everyone’s behavior and actions in their movement conforms enough to its mission so they don’t have to put up with perceived hypocrites who may hurt the movement’s credibility and less committed people who do not pull their own weight or worse, act to effectively dilute the effectiveness of the organization’s efforts to fulfill its mission. 

Gracchus’ quote above about the activist who joins solely for his soul’s fulfillment is exactly the type of self-absorbed fad-oriented activist most activist college classmates and friends active in such movements have seen far too much of and DO NOT WANT in their movements. 

Case in point, “The Sparticist League”. No matter how left wing you might get, they are more left wing than that. In this way, their morality play is assured of lasting a long time, because the world cannot possibly get as left wing as they are.

That and the fact they seem to be following the Marxist-Leninist SOP of Democratic Centralism which stipulates that everyone must conform 100% to the Party line once it has been finalized.  No different than the policies of other political organizations and movements which have been run along Marxist-Leninist lines.

Comment #91: exholt  on  06/10  at  05:47 PM

Personally, I just hate the dumb bad interpretation of “the personal is political” to mean you can’t be an X unless you live your life with the maximum personal sacrifices, because it just burns people out of what is important and removes the point of all the little stuff. You should think about whether or not you want to change your name not because you “owe feminism” that and if you fail you are a bad feminist, but because you should really think about whether you want to give up your name so easily for you.
Comment #72: Cerberus on 06/10 at 02:44 PM

That’s taking “the personal is the political” backwards, anyway. 

What that phrase means is, when you encounter sexism, racism, economic oppression, political fuckery, whatever, in your personal life, it’s real, and it’s political.  It’s political because it’s happening to other people, not just you.  It’s meant to unite us, not divide us.

It’s not just your little personal problem you’re having with your husband, or boss, probably because you’re a bitch, or you’re lazy, or stupid.  It’s a problem with the system. 

So for example when you feel it’s just easier to change your name or hard to keep it, it’s not just because you’re a special person who has a special loving feeling toward your husband-to-be.  It’s because there’s this thing called patriarchy trying to obliterate your identity and subsume it under that of your husband-to-be, that defines your love as your willingness to give up your identity.

That doesn’t mean you must fight it everywhere or be a bad feminist.  It means you will benefit from noticing where the system is grinding you down.  Identifying the problem doesn’t always solve it, but a lot of times it helps you feel less crazy and no longer confused or disheartened when you find yourself on the shit end of the stick so often.

Comment #92: oldfeminist  on  06/10  at  05:54 PM

Sad when a person who’s job is the written word can’t interpret the written word.

Comment #93: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/10  at  05:56 PM

If I was as uncharitable to your words as you are to mind, I would say “So the only legitimate thinking going on in revolutionary movements is in its theorists?”

Except I didn’t say that. I’m starting from the assumption (and, being a matter of historical evidence, it’s not a particularly generous one) that legitimate thinking in revolutionary movements is a mix that emerges from both theory and on-the-ground practise. Due to that viewpoint, I don’t divide revolutionaries between intellectual and manual labour at all, except to address your viewpoint that such a division exists. I’m already with Kropotkin there.

My only divison is between those revolutionaries who make a serious attempt to understand the theory they’re fighting for (e.g. an anarchist like yourself) and those who don’t (e.g. the kind of rock-throwing anarkiddie whose only response to the mention of Kropotkin or Goldman is “who?”).

Comment #94: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  05:58 PM

Pretty much, yeah, just like going back in time and killing Hitler would not have stopped the rise of Nazism and the Holocaust.

Er…but it probably would have.  Obviously economic realities and historical situations constrain what historical actors can accomplish, but they don’t predetermine everything.  Or, as Marx said:

Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past.

At any rate, I don’t see much point to this argument.  BlackBloc has clearly defined socialism to exclude virtually all actual socialists throughout history, and instead to mean, well, I’m not really sure.  Working class people doing work?  His/her whole argument, so far as I can tell, is basically just the “No true Scotsman” argument - “No true Socialist can be upper or middle class”, it is declared, and then when socialists who are middle or upper class are pointed out, various special rules are elaborated upon to exclude them as not being “true Socialists.”  Thus, we see that, so far, Marx, Engels, Saint-Simon, Fourier, Sorel, and Bakunin are already not “true socialists.”  Also, “no true socialist” believes in either Marxism or state socialism.

Apparently, we’re left with anarcho-syndicalism as the only true form of socialism, but even there the actual theorists of anarcho-syndicalism are likewise not true socialists, because to be a true socialist you have to be a revolutionary, and not a mere theorist.  So we’re left with, what?  So far as I can tell there effectively aren’t any true socialists with the possible exception of BlackBloc himself.  This is just the obscurantism of the sectarian left.  Nothing to argue with, because terms only mean what BlackBloc wants them to mean.

Comment #95: jlk7e  on  06/10  at  06:02 PM

Haven’t read all the comments yet, sorry if I’m repeating what others said already. This piece was such a sexist take down that I almost rooted for Maya when she tweeted the reporter’s phone number. As I understand it, this wasn’t even the first time this reporter went after a woman artist. That a woman writes these take-down jobs about other women is sort of heart-breaking to me.

Yes, M.I.A.‘s politics are often not well thought out and naive. But is there anything in her work that’s any more naive then, say, Guns of Brixton? And yet The Clash are “the only band that matters” and she gets a character assasination piece in NYT for her efforts.

It seems to me that that it’s always women artists and artists of color who are taken to task over authenticity. Amanda mentioned Biggie and Tupac, and the role the authenticity game played in their deaths. It’s a double-bind - the media demands authenticity but it presents such a limited, stereotypical, and racist view of what that looks like. Play into that and you’re a “thug,” refuse to play that game and you’re a “fake.”

I noticed that for women artists there isn’t really a way to be “authentic.”. If they dare to even have politics in their music, like M.I.A. or Courtney, the take-down will be swift and brutal. The only way to divert criticism is to emrace the opposite of authenticity and make it all about camp and performance of stardom, like Gaga or Madonna. But even then someone will inevitably come along and say that they are lifting their act from other places. Can’t win, really.

Comment #96: elena  on  06/10  at  06:07 PM

Of course, the whole authenticity game is yet another face of “boil down complex social behavior and complex social forces to a single purity code for an individual”.

Comment #97: Ms Kate  on  06/10  at  06:24 PM

Well it’s obvious that it’s a hit piece but frankly, MIA got what was coming to her. Not for being a woman or for being political but for continually calling out other artists in terms of authenticity and ‘selling out’. If you’re going to talk shit about your peers than yes, you have a duty to be ‘authentic’, otherwise you’re a hypocrite and deserve to be called on it.

And the comparisons to Public Enemy, Kathleen Hanna, The Clash, etc. are tenuous. They largely stayed in the communities they were writing about while they were writing about them (The Clash, for instance, may not have lived in Brixton but most of them did live in one of the poorer parts of London and were still being directly exposed to police brutality). MIA in contrast, is using the country’s civil war as an aesthetic backdrop to her music and preaching violent revolution from the other side of the world where her location and her husband’s wealth can protect her from any consequences her words might bring. THAT is when your authenticity becomes an issue.

Comment #98: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  06/10  at  06:34 PM

BlackBloc has clearly defined socialism to exclude virtually all actual socialists throughout history

Oh no. YOU (and bourgeois historians) have defined socialism to exclude virtually all actual socialists throughout history. You only name the names of bourgeois theorists that were recorded by bourgeois historians, while forgetting that socialism was a mass movement, made up of millions of actual proletarians. At worst my crime is to have eliminated from contention most of the small cadre of Big Men you’ve decided represented all socialists.

Comment #99: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  06:37 PM

Gracchus’ quote above about the activist who joins solely for his soul’s fulfillment is exactly the type of self-absorbed fad-oriented activist most activist college classmates and friends active in such movements have seen far too much of and DO NOT WANT in their movements.

In my experience, this type of self-absorption is also present in Christian missionaries.

Comment #100: Entomologista  on  06/10  at  06:41 PM

#91

There is also another possibility that they want to ensure everyone’s behavior and actions in their movement conforms enough to its mission so they don’t have to put up with perceived hypocrites who may hurt the movement’s credibility and less committed people who do not pull their own weight or worse, act to effectively dilute the effectiveness of the organization’s efforts to fulfill its mission.

Gracchus’ quote above about the activist who joins solely for his soul’s fulfillment is exactly the type of self-absorbed fad-oriented activist most activist college classmates and friends active in such movements have seen far too much of and DO NOT WANT in their movements.

Yes, the Spartacists could be self-policing in order to weed out unproductive members who aren’t with the program. Political groups might want to do this for numerous good reasons.

I doubt that analysis though, for the following reason, the Spartacists claim they are building for a worldwide socialist revolution.

The International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist) is a proletarian, revolutionary and internationalist tendency which is committed to the task of building Leninist parties as national sections of a democratic-centralist international whose purpose is to lead the working class to victory through socialist revolutions throughout the world.

Only the proletariat, through the seizure of political power and the destruction of capitalism as a world system, can lay the basis for the elimination of exploitation and the resolution of the contradiction between the growth of the productive forces of the world economy and national-state barriers. ...

So on one hand, they want a worldwide communist revolution, where they seize political power, lead the proletariat to victory and destroy Capitalism. On the other hand, they are a smallish group of people who go to antiwar demonstrations, sell socialist newspapers, and argue with people. If you had that kind of vast gap between what you want and what actually is, don’t you think you’d maybe compromise a little?

When you have problem like that, you’d think that self-absorbed fad activists would actually improve matters. Might help in bringing in the young ‘uns. Maybe if the Sparticists got more faddish and self absorbed, they could improve their organization to the level of “World Can’t Wait”.

Comment #101: atheist  on  06/10  at  06:42 PM

Correction to my post: I meant that you mentionned only bourgeois and aristocrat socialists.

And BTW, yes I do contend that the only form of socialism still in existence, meaningfully, in the present day is anarchism (and not just anarcho-syndicalism). The past is different. There was a lot more diversity of thought back then, before Marxism and state socialism both showed themselves to be dead end by their fruits. And without the evidence of present day USSR, China or Europe before their eyes, genuine and sincere socialists back then could easily and rationally have thought that those approaches could yield something.

Comment #102: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  06:43 PM

In my experience, this type of self-absorption is also present in Christian missionaries.

The Harris article I quoted (and I should note here that Harris is a small-l libertarian who wrote the article for a conservative academic journal) is entitled “Al Qaeda’s Fantasy Ideology.” As you might imagine, the main thesis is that organised religion is always on a special lookout for fantasists with delusions of grandeur.

You only name the names of bourgeois theorists that were recorded by bourgeois historians, while forgetting that socialism was a mass movement, made up of millions of actual proletarians.

Well, then, it’s up to you (or a non-bourgeois historian) to name them. Every last one, please.

And jlk7e, please stop spreading the tale that Marx and Engels stormed the Winter Palace all by themselves in 1917.

Seriously, I did my graduate study with profs who squarely rejected the Great Man theory of history, and instead focused on social history or mass movement history. Somehow they were able to find a balance that incorporated the well-known theorists and the “activists on the street” into the theory and practise of socialism.

Comment #103: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  07:00 PM

When you have problem like that, you’d think that self-absorbed fad activists would actually improve matters. Might help in bringing in the young ‘uns.

It would seem intuitive, until you look at the results of this approach with the anarchist movement in Seattle and Quebec City.

Comment #104: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  07:03 PM

Yes, the Spartacists could be self-policing in order to weed out unproductive members who aren’t with the program. Political groups might want to do this for numerous good reasons.

I doubt that analysis though, for the following reason, the Spartacists claim they are building for a worldwide socialist revolution.

I also mentioned how their actions here are standard operating procedure(SOP) for political organizations and movements organized along Marxist Leninist lines.  Specifically, the concept of Democratic Centralism where once the party line is finalized, everyone within the organization must conform 100% to it or else.

Comment #105: exholt  on  06/10  at  07:15 PM

#104

It would seem intuitive, until you look at the results of this approach with the anarchist movement in Seattle and Quebec City.

Hey, at least the anarchists got some press from Seattle and Quebec. Most people are blissfully unaware of the existence of The Spartacist League, and will remain so.

Comment #106: atheist  on  06/10  at  07:20 PM

Back on Maya Arulpragasam, the Pitchfork article by Adebe was really good, thanks to Amanda for linking to it. It manages to put a finger on something I always noted about MIA but never expressed well. MIA’s music is resonant, yet the resonant things are jumbled into a mess that can seem repellent, as if she herself did not quite understand their significance. For instance I always thought the final cartoon image in her video “Galang”, the image of her dancing, like a little girl, in a burning jungle, was a potent way of showing a person growing up in a violent atmosphere.

Comment #107: atheist  on  06/10  at  07:39 PM

Hey, at least the anarchists got some press from Seattle and Quebec.

My joke was that it wasn’t the sort of broad-based mass-movement-growing PR that a revolutionary group is necessarily looking for.

If they’re mainly interested in recruiting ignorant little snots from affluent societies who are interested in smashing stuff, though, I’ll admit it was hard to beat.

Most people are blissfully unaware of the existence of The Spartacist League, and will remain so.

All part of their diabolical game, atheist. They just want you to think that most people are unaware. If you want to know more, I have a newsletter you might want to subscribe to…

Comment #108: Gracchus.  on  06/10  at  08:02 PM

“Our chief weapons are surprise—surprise and fear—surprise, fear, and copies of The Workers’ Vanguard!

Comment #109: atheist  on  06/10  at  08:13 PM

Oh no. YOU (and bourgeois historians) have defined socialism to exclude virtually all actual socialists throughout history. You only name the names of bourgeois theorists that were recorded by bourgeois historians, while forgetting that socialism was a mass movement, made up of millions of actual proletarians. At worst my crime is to have eliminated from contention most of the small cadre of Big Men you’ve decided represented all socialists.

Socialism was of course a mass movement.  It’s worth noting, though, that most of those actual proletarians were members of parties or movements that embraced ideologies developed by “bourgeois theorists.”  More importantly, it was their embrace of such ideologies that distinguished them as socialist.  In pre-WWI Germany, for example, there were socialist trade unions and Catholic trade unions.  The workers in both had roughly the same ideas about practical demands on employers; what distinguished them was that the socialist unions embraced Marxism while the Catholic ones rejected it.

Furthermore, the “actual proletarians” generally tended to be a lot more pragmatic and willing to compromise socialist principles for practical gains.  German SPD leaders who came from the trade unions tended to be pragmatists, uninterested in revolution or socialist ideology.  Friedrich Ebert was a saddlemaker, for example, while Karl Liebknecht was a well-off lawyer.  Ebert used the reactionary German army to crush a socialist revolution led by Liebknecht in 1919.  Who was the true socialist here and who was the class traitor?  The British Labour Party’s notoriously anti-revolutionary nature was generally understood to result at least in part from its origins in the trade union movement, rather than in Marxist revolutionary thought.

You seem to be arguing that bourgeois and aristocratic theoreticians cannot be true socialists because they cannot understand the true interests of the working class (and I agree with you that obviously bourgeois and aristocratic socialists are going to have difficulty really understanding working class concerns), and because practice, rather than theory, is the measure of true socialism.  One can just as easily say that, for the most part, working class practitioners are not true socialists because they inevitably sell out on “true socialism” to the capitalists in exchange for concrete economic or political benefits.  Obviously there will usually be a minority who continues to support revolution, or whatever (although these days those minorities are smaller and smaller), but the vast majority of the working class is, most of the time, willing to work to win gains within the capitalist system, rather than insisting on revolution to overthrow it.

Your vision of the heroic worker, constantly striving to overthrow capitalism and the state, is just a fantasy.  With a few exceptions, such people have never existed.  And those exceptions have always owed their existence to the work of “mere theorists” who have elaborated an ideological worldview that attracts support from real workers.  Without “mere theorists” there’s no such thing as socialism.

Comment #110: jlk7e  on  06/10  at  08:32 PM

I think MIA is totally genius. But I also don’t expect politics and art to gel in a straight way becoming propaganda. I think MIA’s message is confused/incorrect/disturbing/etc. because its human, felt and real. That’s authentic.

Comment #111: AdamN  on  06/10  at  09:52 PM

If people are going to call the Clash naive for “Guns of Brixton,” I just have to point out that they also wrote “Death or Glory.” Not every song is autobiographical. Not every protagonist is meant to be the same as the singer. Not every point of view portrayed in a song (novel, story, poem, movie, etc.) is endorsed.

Comment #112: chingona  on  06/10  at  10:30 PM

It’s ironic that you lament other people using “authenticity” to discredit MIA, only to go on to posit your own definition of “authenticity” and accuse Hanna of not living up to it.

WOW!

That’s NOT what I said at all, and I SURE hope you don’t go to her with these accusations and make her think I think anything less of her than I do, because I think she’s fucking awesome.

My point is that people’s bullshit about authenticity was damaging and unfair to Kathleen.  Basically, the opposite of what you accuse me of saying.

Comment #113: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/10  at  10:36 PM

I re-read that paragraph—not even all that carefully—and you would have to be deliberately looking to be butthurt to interpret that as you somehow being the authenticity police on Hanna.

Comment #114: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/10  at  11:01 PM

I’m not one to use my blog to talk shit about fellow feminists to begin with, and so I really hate being accused of it when I was doing the fucking opposite.  I dug the writer up on Twitter and demanded she rethink this.

Comment #115: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/11  at  12:06 AM

Amanda, have you read this by Dave Eggers?  It speaks to your point quite a bit, and it’s a piece I come back to a lot when I get upset about idols and whatnot.  It, too, involves the futility of the keeping real of shit.

His point, for those who don’t want to bother reading the whole thing, is that it makes much more sense to evaluate the work when, well, evaluating someone’s work, rather than referring outwards to some abstract notion of “street cred.”

Comment #116: Michelle Dean  on  06/11  at  12:38 AM

Cerberus, thanks for reminding me what a great song Hooker With A Penis is. 

Ah, reading all this brings me back to 1979, when I was 19 and heard the first two Clash albums.  I was all fired up about taking on The Man when I realized that they were signed to the biggest record company in the world at that time and that I only knew of them because of the promotional muscle of said record company.  A few years later I saw Rude Boy and it was clear how much of that rebel rocker stuff was a pose.  As a result, I don’t take “authenticity” in rock musicians seriously at all any more, I only care if the songs are good.

Comment #117: Henry Holland  on  06/11  at  02:09 AM

I honestly can’t believe the same person who wrote: “The purity wars, the authenticity cruising, the impossible standards of perfection, the requirement that musicians and artists who have political content in their art be these Jesus-like figures of political perfection—-all that kills the music.  And ironically distracts from what is pure and authentic about music, which is the feeling it gives you.” also wrote this.

Comment #118: Destructor  on  06/11  at  03:33 AM

Maybe actually reading something complicated is a privileged experience she can’t understand, perhaps she should work for the very like-minded Palin, no?

Comment #119: Ms Kate  on  06/11  at  08:54 AM

Um, Destructor ... where is the conflict here???  Oh, maybe if you are a bit naive ... maybe.

Comment #120: Ms Kate  on  06/11  at  08:56 AM

@jlk7e: Your post is basically a perfect example of the pro-bourgeois bias that has crept into socialist theory. You’re basically repeating basic Leninist lies, like the idea that proletarians can only develop trade unionism, that revolutionary theory has to come from outside the proleteriat itself and come down given from on high by their superiors in the bourgeois class. Bourgeois theorists did not invent socialist theories. They were developped by the workers themselves. Bourgeois theorists invented these distortions, like Marxism-Leninism, that obfuscate who the real actors are. You are denying the agency of millions and casting them as the mere puppets of ideas that were developped by those external to themselves. It makes me sick.

Comment #121: BlackBloc  on  06/11  at  11:00 AM

Worrying about authenticity is an extremely 20-something thing to do (and hey, since I did it, everyone must have, right?). It obviously has its roots in the insecurities we all deal with in some form at that time, and usually get over within a few years.

But yeah, it’s just crippling as a creative person. I mean, my first band was a 12-bar whiteboy blooze & surf band. Unique? No. Groundbreaking? Never. Fun? Oh yeah. There’s something awesome about playing Old Dead Sixties music among a sea of Blink-182 clones, noodly jam bands, and big dumb metal.

Of course, it was also 1997, so not many people agreed with us.

Comment #122: keirdubois  on  06/11  at  11:28 AM

BlackBloc, I understand that you take this stuff (socialist politics) seriously.  And I understand that you are offended by the idea that socialist theory might have to come from people other than the Proletariat.

But what I would like to know is, how are people who are primarily (exclusively?) occupied by the struggle to stay alive and feed/clothe/house/raise their children expected to have the time (and the education) to develop and implement the socialist theory that would allow them to not be completely occupied by the struggle to stay alive?  (This is a genuine question - I’m not trying to yank your chain…)

Comment #123: MikeEss  on  06/11  at  11:41 AM

@MikeEss: The struggle for existence is itself an education. The reason bourgeois socialists need a theoretical education in fancy universities about what oppression means is because they’re not themselves being oppressed. The people know what being oppressed means without going to class, because they feel it every day. Insurrection is a spontaneous process.

Comment #124: BlackBloc  on  06/11  at  12:00 PM

It seems to me there is a big difference between knowing you’re being oppressed and what it feels like to be oppressed every day, versus knowing who is doing it, why they are doing it, and what should be done to fix the situation to reduce or eliminate the oppression.

The first case is pretty obvious in most situations.  But really understanding the complete nature of the oppression and how to deal with it seems to me to require a greater knowledge than most people could possibly gain from just struggling to stay alive.  It would seem to require specific education in a bunch of areas that the average person either is only vaguely aware of, or is completely oblivious to (like say Economics, Sociology, Political Theory, etc.).

(For what it’s worth, the analogy that comes to my mind is the difference between being a user of some technology versus being a creator or influencer of that technology.  Anyone can be taught to use a computer or a car.  But if you need to influence the direction of how computers are actually used, let’s say to increase access to information and act as a counter to oppression - or influence the process of creating cars so they can become “green” and stop burning fossil fuels - then merely knowing how to use either device, while probably useful knowledge to have, is hardly adequate to even begin tackling more serious problems regarding their use now and in the future. 

IMHO, and sorry for the odd analogy. I have an odd mind…)

Comment #125: MikeEss  on  06/11  at  12:37 PM

BlackBloc, I understand that you take this stuff (socialist politics) seriously.  And I understand that you are offended by the idea that socialist theory might have to come from people other than the Proletariat.

It’s entertainingly presented by BlackBloc packaged in wonderfully magical thinking, too: there are only bourgeois historians and theorists because all the working class ones have been written out of history, explaining the lack of their presence! it’s a fun game that anyone can play!

Half this thread is an interesting and awesome discussion about music and the cult of authenticity and the other half of the thread reads like a hilarious parody of what right wingers think goes on in the comments section of liberal blogs.

Comment #126: Tyro  on  06/11  at  01:23 PM

The reason bourgeois socialists need a theoretical education in fancy universities about what oppression means is because they’re not themselves being oppressed.

Uh, some of us “bourgeois socialists” come from families that didn’t need lessons at ‘fancy universities’  in what it means to be oppressed because they learnt them “out of school”.

In my own family, that would include Mother Avengers’ sojourn in a Japanese Imperial Army civilian concentration camp included hearing a Chinese guerrilla being tortured to death while her grandmother recited the De Profundis and urged her to ‘storm Heaven’ with prayers, or Professor Avenger, who only recently told me about his childhood during the Depression when he would leave the table hungry sometimes until Grandfather Avenger got regular work in the war plants when he was 8 or 9 years old.

Now, please let’s get back on the main subject before this discussion devolves into a political version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

Comment #127: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/11  at  02:21 PM

Yes!!!

I used to be a rock snob; but there was a music columnist at the Toronto Star… Ben Rayner, I think… who had a serious snobby hate-on for the band around which my life revolved, Our Lady Peace (Raine Maida understood my teenage pain!). And in the course of furiously deconstrucing his criticism, I started to realize that rock snobbery was not only unfair to rock fans like me, but to all music fans. And then towards the end of high school I started watching American Idol and realized, hey, I enjoy this! And that’s enough!

Related to this, particularly the women are easier to beat with the “wants attention” or “thinks she’s all that” sticks part:
I’ve recently started reading comments on Jezebel and noticing a lot of ugliness directed towards female celebrities, essentially just because they dare to be in the public eye. She’d do anything for attention, I’m so sick of hearing about her, type of thing. And it’s like… you’re reading a blog about celebrities! If you don’t want to hear about it, don’t read it! It’s disconcerting to see on a nominally feminist website.

Re: Selling out
It’s irritating how popularity is often assumed to be a sign of lack of merit. Art is about communication, and popularity among your audience is an indication that the communication was successful. And imagining that artists are supposed to suffer for their art - everyone wants to be successful in their field. And everyone needs to make a living! As if artists only started making art for money recently, and what is the world coming to! Michelangelo was a sell-out for catering to the Catholic church, and Shakespeare for pandering to the king! And the reason we know about them today is that they were popular!

Re: Lady Gaga
@ Dustin L. #52
The privileging of originality in art is connected to but not quite the same as the insistence on authenticity. But with regards to originality - I think it’s just as bogus. Lady Gaga deliberately references her influences because she is in dialogue with them, which is actually something that good artists do. This is not the same as “stealing”. Lloyd Alexander did not “steal” from J.R.R. Tolkein because he wrote a series based on Welsh mythology. Stephanie Meyers did not “steal” from Ann Rice, or Joss Whedon, or Bram Stoker by writing about vampires. Renoir did not steal from Monet by trying to paint light. The premium on originality in music is annoying because it devalues conversation for the sake of novelty. Gaga makes no secret of her influences. In fact, the “victims” of her “theft” (Madonna, Elton John) are among her fans and supporters. She doesn’t “ape” them. She consciously takes what has been done before and adds to the conversation.

But back to authenticity per se. I’ve seen a certain kind of comment about Gaga around that I find amusing - I’d like her more if she would just be herself. The insistence that if the self is constructed, it is not legitimate. Tyro (#65) wrote, “We know that “Lady Gaga” is an “act” and she’s not really claiming otherwise,” but there seem to be many people who assume that as an artist she must be claiming otherwise.

Re: Being wealthy and leftist(/socialist?)
Did not read the whole big debate, just tossing in my two cents:
The thing that differentiates class from other axes of inequality is that class membership is relatively more fluid, and potentially much more fluid depending on economic conditions. Two people can have lower-class upbringings, then gain some wealth, and one will become an ardent capitalist while the other remains loyal to lower class interests. One can have a class-privileged upbringing, lose it all, and develop a more marxist understanding of society as a result of the experience. People can have formative experiences at any point in their lives. And I don’t think it’s fair to expect people, especially those who have experienced want, to give up their long-term security of being, and that of their children. So.

And also, @Tyro #126

t’s entertainingly presented by BlackBloc packaged in wonderfully magical thinking, too: there are only bourgeois historians and theorists because all the working class ones have been written out of history, explaining the lack of their presence! it’s a fun game that anyone can play!

Are you really making fun of the idea that acheivements and contributions of non-privileged people are ignored, erased, and appropriated? I can’t think of a single group of marginalized people that does not recognize this as one of the means of their oppression. We even have a contemporary example, with the Texas school board.

Unless you’re amused specifically by the idea of historians being written out of history. Which may seem weird, because historians write history. Until you remember that not all books ever written remain in print forever, nor are they accessible to anyone who’s interested.

Comment #128: MarissaAO  on  06/11  at  05:01 PM

Speaking of The Clash, I’ve always been astounded at how many fans of that and other ‘70s punk bands rip into ‘90s era pop-punk bands like Green Day and Offspring for not being “truly punk”.  This is especially amusing with Green Day considering how much they came out against W’s administration with their album “American Idiot” long after most mainstream groups decided to turn turtle.  What do you all think?

Moreover, there is something to be said for the fact that MIA’s expression of politics and her manner in doing so is partisan and offensive to many, but also the fact that like many children of immigrants or young immigrants that there is strong policing going of authenticity going on both outside and within the Sri Lankan society? I can easily see the Sri Lankans, especially their overseas communities openly lambasting her and questioning her right to even comment on the Sri Lankan civil war on account of her being born in England, becoming culturally “Westernized” and lately, spending her life in the lap of luxury provided by the music industry and marriage to a wealthy “outsider”. 

As an American-born Chinese, I’ve had to deal with similar crap of being “too Chinese/Asian” to some “Real Americans” and moreso, completely assimilated upper/upper-middle class all-White suburban raised Asian Americans because I have a strong conversational command of Mandarin and simultaneously, decried as being “Too Americanized” by some international Chinese students, older relatives, and even some extremely clueless “Real American” Asiaphiles with their Asian/Asian-American SOs. 

Oddly enough, when I actually spent a few months in Mainland China in the late 1990’s I never had any issues of being pegged as “too Americanized” by the locals.  Never came up as after just two days, my conversational Mandarin was good enough to fool nearly everyone into thinking that I was native-born Chinese, albeit one from a well-off family in southern China on account of my American style clothing.

Comment #129: exholt  on  06/11  at  05:05 PM

exholt, this is being too Chinese or Asian, IMHO.

One can have a class-privileged upbringing, lose it all, and develop a more marxist understanding of society as a result of the experience.

I dunno about marxist, as MA left the heavy political thinking to PA, but she was always insistent that I should always vote for the Democratic candidates, she even berated me for voting for Anderson in the 1980 election because “You wasted your vote.”

Comment #130: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/11  at  05:42 PM

@ Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein (#130)

???

I was using “marxist” in the most general sense, the politics 101 concepts. Class conflict, relationships of production, the economic base of the political superstructure. I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

Comment #131: MarissaAO  on  06/11  at  06:20 PM

Mother Avenger underwent the process you described as

class-privileged upbringing, lose it all

twice, first with her internment with her family by the Japanese, second when she reinvented herself as an American child shortly after her family came to CA after WWII.

I’m saying that I don’t think she even had a politics 101 understanding of marxism, she was more into feminism in the early 70s and was the pragmatist in the family:  When she took a writing class she said her ambition wasn’t to necessarily write like Somerset Maugham, but to be a best-seller like Maugham.  grin

Comment #132: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/11  at  06:56 PM

Are you really making fun of the idea that acheivements and contributions of non-privileged people are ignored, erased, and appropriated?

No, I’m making fun of the mindset that allows you to invent beliefs because they fit with your ideology’s narrative and then come up with additional narratives that allow you to explain away the lack of evidence for your beliefs. It’s like saying that you believe that space aliens built the pyramids: very special space aliens of the type that build pyramids specifically in such a way as to make them look like they were built by local humans.

Comment #133: Tyro  on  06/11  at  08:30 PM

@MarissaAO
I totally agree with you about originality.  In fact, I think you read my comments as harsher than I meant them- I adore Gaga, and was using terms like “steal” and “ape” with tongue in cheek.  I’m a grad student in film studies, so I’m all about artists who wear their influences on their sleeves.  Moreover, my particular areas of interest are Busby Berkeley musicals, euro-horror, and queer film, so Gaga aligns with what I’m into more than anyone else in pop music right now.

Comment #134: Dustin L  on  06/12  at  12:15 AM

I keep looking around for this mass movement of downtrodden workers spontaneously revolting against capitalist oppression, a movement so pure that it doesn’t require leaders to follow or theorists to proselytize for it via their writings.  Still haven’t seen it.  Must be lonely being BlackBloc, a revolution of one.  But at least his movement is authentic, unlike all those other “socialist” movements that actually have millions of adherents and systematized theories of the world they are trying to create in place of the world they have been given.

Comment #135: liberalrob  on  06/12  at  08:12 AM
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