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Next entry: The Best Film About Psychotic Black People You Will See All Day Previous entry: In defense of nekkid pictures, even of dudes

Against prudery

Sex

I don't want to keep hammering at this, but here's a link to my Alternet piece on why I'm so concerned about this whole Anthony Weiner scandal.  I won't revisit it at length here; please read the article.  My biggest problem is that the pretense of public interest was completely abandoned, and this was just a matter of the "ick factor". Now that this door is open, and simply making people uncomfortable is considered reason enough to condemn someone and demand their resignation, I'm really worried.  My gut feeling on this is that Weinergate really is confirmation of a suspicion I've had for awhile that America has quietly become more prudish in the past few years, and this is a very bad thing.

Now, I get that some people are sexually unadventurous, and god knows that's their right.  I find it silly when sexually unadventurous people get belligerently defensive that they're not as interesting in this way as adventurous people, which is like having picky people get angry that their stories of eating the same three things garner less attention than the stories of the gastronomically curious.  Or having people who stubbornly stay at home get defensive when people who travel a lot get more attention.  Or people who haven't bought a new album in 20 years lash out at "hipsters" for being so bold as to think they're cool. I could go on, but you get the picture.  All of us have areas of our lives where we're not that interesting.  Sex can be one of them.  The whole "prude pride" thing just seems silly to me.  

Silly, and unfortunately dangerous, as recent events demonstrate.  Because it's one thing not to be sexually adventurous, but quite another to sit in judgment of people whose sexual curiosities ick you out, whether done out of meanness or defensiveness.  And lately, I've just generally noticed a trend towards more openly bashing people for seeking pleasure, even and often especially if they harm no one else in doing so.  Hipster-bashing is actually a good example!  Between prudes and libertines, there's a major imbalance, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that libertines just aren't nearly as interested in getting into the business of prudes as vice versa.  And in a way, it's a lot easier to be prudish, to stick your nose in the air and claim that you're too good for base interests in humping and sucking and just giving yourself over to pleasure.  The fact that we are conducting sex scandals that don't actually have any public importance is only part of it.  I compiled a mental list of examples over the course of the day, and hope I can even remember them all:

*Trend stories about women who are just so tired of sex

*The surprisingly little amount of pushback that the Republicans have gotten for suddenly, as a party, moving towards an anti-contraception stance.  They're still hedging their bets---they're only against it if you're too poor to afford it on your own---but the fact of the matter is this is a radical anti-sex position that they would have been afraid to have a few years ago.  Even a few years ago, most conservatives wouldn't have been so eager to close down Planned Parenthood and screeching that you need to just shut your legs if you don't want to have babies, but now that's becoming a mainstream sentiment that is getting very little pushback from inside the Republican party.  From the outside, there has been resistance, but the vast majority of it has been rooted in the "necessary evil" argument---i.e., that we have to have these services because of public health problems if we don't---and very little has been geared towards saying, "Sex if fucking awesome, and anyone who's against it can suck my left one."  And part of the reason is that even liberals are afraid to defend sex. 

*To an extent, the ongoing hysteria over pop stars being sexy.  I just don't completely grasp why the fact that Miley Cyrus wears booty shorts is such a national scandal, honestly. When I was 8, 9, 10 years old, I loved Michael Jackson and Madonna, and both of them blew any kind of naughty crap Cyrus does out of the water.  Pop stars are supposed to be sexy. 

*The Twilight books.  Sex-and-woman-hating propaganda like that should be provoking a national outrage, not a spate of high-grossing movies.  If I had a child reading this crap, we would be having a series of talks about the importance of test driving cars before you buy. 

*That the reaction to SlutWalk involved, on any level, discussion about why women who are wearing short skirts are asking for it.  I feel more people are saying this in 2011 than they were in 2001. Just a hunch; obvs, no stats. 

*A study is released that shows that 1/3 of young people 15-24 have never had sex, and this was published uncritically in the vast majority of media outlets as if it was an unobjectionably good thing, on the grounds that less sex is somehow automatically better. The questions that came to mind for me were fast and furious, with the first one being, "Why on earth aren't we distinguising because 15-year-olds and 23-year-olds?" It's certainly not a problem if many 15-year-olds are virgins!  But if we're seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that's not a good thing.  I would argue that's a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development. (There's even evidence that people, at least men, who wait until their mid-20s to start having sex suffer from greater levels of sexual dysfunction.) I did look into it deeper and found that the stats are misleading, and the percentage of 23-year-old virgins is really low, but the fact that people weren't even asking the question concerned me.  

*The word "vajayjay". 

*Gail Dines. 'nuff said.

*Talking about grown men who cheat in the same exact terms you discuss children caught snatching cookies from the cookie jar. 

*Calling Dominique Strauss-Kahn's problem a "sex case".  Or that of any other accused rapist.  The implication here is that it's the sex instead of the grotesque violence that's the problem.  Prudery is generally causing a collapse in the distinctions between "accusing" someone of having illicit but consensual sex and accusing someone of rape. 

*That Mike Huckabee, who I recall was treated when he was first governor of Arkansas like the fundamentalist freak show that he is, now gets a major pass in the mainstream media.  

*The explosion of wedding porn, and the accompanying obsession with "baby bumps" in the tabloid media. Especially in conjunction with the prurient obsession with bad girls who are drinking and sleeping around.  Our tabloids are a daily propaganda mill of shame for "bad girls" and adulation for "good girls", and of course all the accompanying redemption tales of "bad girls" who are baptized with a wedding gown and a baby emerging from the vagina.  

*Bristol Palin's inexplicable fame.  

*This is like the third article I've seen recently about Molly Jong-Fast, whose claim to fame is she's a judgmental prude who seems to have it out for her famous mother, Erica Jong, for not being a judgmental prude. In a saner world, this would be like reading an article about Jakob Dylan where he sneers at his dad for being one of the most important rock musicians of all time, and then turns around and prides himself on producing mediocre crap that is only appreciated by douchebags who have a deepset fear of being challenged by art.  But in New Prude America, the fact that Jong-Fast is a judgmental prude who picks on her much more interesting mother is considered not only newsworthy but arguably admirable.  Barf.

I could probably go on, but it's getting tedious.  I remember, about a decade ago, the first time I was confronted by a queer activist who was adamantly against marriage as a gay rights priority.  His argument was that marriage is a toxic institution that was invented to stifle human freedom, especially women's freedom.  And that by making it the focus of gay rights, you were reinforcing the notion that human rights are contingent on one's compliance with prudish, patriarchal norms.  I pooh-poohed this in my mind, and kind of have since.  I felt that most arguments I heard for gay rights were based not on compliance with stifling sexual norms, but were more about a combination of practical concerns and love.  Major gay marriage advocates like Dan Savage were basically the definition of anti-prudes, you know?  My hope, and I still hold it, is that by redefining marriage to include gay people we can in fact open the door to a real understanding that human beings are too damn diverse to all be shoved in the same box and held to the same standards. 

Now I fear this argument may have some validity, because it seems that support for gay marriage is rising as prudery is, and part of the reason is that many people have determined that gays want to be as square as everyone else.  Which is great for square gay people, but doesn't do much for the rest of us who also want full inclusion of the slutty and the kinky and men who like to wear dresses.  Not only do I think the queers and weirdos and sluts and whores of the world are still being left out, I fear they're being squeezed out even more, and it bothers me.  The effects of this aren't small.  I was struck by how bad it can get just this morning, as I was reading this really wonderful article about the families of the victims of the Long Island serial killer. The families feel, and I think they have a reason to feel, that because their loved ones were considered sexual deviants that this case isn't getting the attention it deserves.  Certainly, there were some up front irregularities, and if you take a step back, the truth of the matter is that murderers target prostitutes precisely because society shuns women whose sole crime is letting men pay them to have sex with them.  (Even as we often are gentler towards johns, who are far more likely than prostitutes to be abusive, evil, cruel, or even just morally indifferent people.) I teared up reading this one quote:

When I ask Cann about Maureen’s life as an escort, she says her sister was desperate. “I found out after she was missing that she had eviction court the next day. It was her last resort.” Cann knows people judge her sister. “I don’t like how they’re talking about her,” she says. But to Cann, it doesn’t matter what Maureen did. “She was still a mother. She still meant the world to her daughter, and me. She was in her mid-twenties. Who’s to say that she was going to be doing this her whole life?” 

During the heyday of fighting over abstinence-only, I really came around to the idea that we shouldn't argue, "Hey, kids are going to have sex whether we like it or not, so let's at least minimize the damage."  I was  more in in the camp of arguing, "Kids should be taught to honor their sexualities, to demand the right to feel pleasure (with the enthusiastic consent caveat!), and to value sexual diversity, because sex is a good thing.  It's part of being human. Pleasure is how we know we're alive."  A more radical, pro-liberty, pro-pleasure approach is the only way to win this argument.  Once we start to put the burden of proof on the arguments for pleasure and privacy, instead of on the arguments against it, then we've lost the battle.  I know many of us are the types to err on the side of the libertines.  What I ask is for us to get bolder in doing so.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 03:17 PM • (155) Comments

I have to read your links, they look very interesting, but yeah, it’s very bad.  It’s bad enough that I’ve found that I am starting to feel as if it’s my responsibility to own up to my own shit.  The same way I have felt responsible, for at least the past 5 years, as the war on women’s choice has really heated up, to state very calmly to people I know, well, I’ve had an abortion.  Now, I have started to feel as if I have to state in the same way to girlfriends of mine who are just besides themselves over the DICK PICTURE, and how “immature” and horrible it was - that my own online activity could not stand up to close scrutiny.  Part of the problem might be (?) that people think only weirdos do this, not anyone they know?

Honestly ,it’s been hard for me to bear some of the shit I have had to listen to since this Weiner shit came up.  (opps!)

Comment #1: Daisy  on  06/07  at  04:51 PM

Well said, Amanda and why I think shows like my own Bedpost Confessions (which brings together a wide range of artists telling stories about the wide range of human sexuality) are important. Sex and sensuality is a very important part of life. Joy, play, fun. Pleasure.

We get quite a crowd each moth and the main comment I hear is “This is so important.”

I agree that the trend seems focused on prudery, but also with an increase on kind of gonzo porn. Gonzo torture films, gonzo twitter attacks on young politically minded females and the media is primed and ready to savagely attack those in leadership positions (like Weiner) who make the mistake of enjoying sexting consensually (that we know of at least).

I’m assuming the average cat would see these trends and fear for themselves. I certainly find the last week of twitter warfare incredibly frightening, but then again, I’m not a politician. 

I’m pretty damn worried about the future, politically, of sex and sexual freedoms.

Comment #2: JulesAboutTown  on  06/07  at  04:57 PM

Well said, Amanda and why I think shows like my own Bedpost Confessions (which brings together a wide range of artists telling stories about the wide range of human sexuality) are important. Sex and sensuality is a very important part of life. Joy, play, fun. Pleasure.

We get quite a crowd each moth and the main comment I hear is “This is so important.”

I agree that the trend seems focused on prudery, but also with an increase on kind of gonzo porn. Gonzo torture films, gonzo twitter attacks on young politically minded females and the media is primed and ready to savagely attack those in leadership positions (like Weiner) who make the mistake of enjoying sexting consensually (that we know of at least).

I’m assuming the average cat would see these trends and fear for themselves. I certainly find the last week of twitter warfare incredibly frightening, but then again, I’m not a politician.

I’m pretty damn worried about the future, politically, of sex and sexual freedoms.

Comment #3: JulesAboutTown  on  06/07  at  04:59 PM

Interestingly, it’s only been my married friends who have been besides themselves over this.  My single and divorced friends (I’m divorced myself), are very “who gives a fuck”.  I was pretty surprised to see the reaction with my married friends, who weighed in a bit later on this.  I mean, you would think he had killed someone.  And these are Democratic voting women.  I mean, I don’t hang with Republicans.

Comment #4: Daisy  on  06/07  at  04:59 PM

So what was all the hip-hoorah about Larry Craig?  He was just getting his favorite kind of nookie - private shit is private shit, straight, gay or otherwise.  Even Tumescent Tony…although he should not have coached the one woman on how to lie to the press…that was just uncool.

Comment #5: Anonymouse  on  06/07  at  05:13 PM

Now that this door is open, and simply making people uncomfortable is considered reason enough to condemn someone and demand their resignation, I’m really worried.

Republicans would have demanded Weiner’s resignation for Jay-Walking.  Calls for his resignation are strictly partisan.  Infidelity somehow managed to spare a host of Republicans - Vitter, Ensign, Gingrich, Craig - from unemployment.

As for the rest - the Miley Cyrus flaps and the wedding/pregnancy obsessed news rags.  You’ve got an oversexed media that wants to paint everything as an explosive scandal.  Pretending to be prudish lets you turn every minor thing into a major drama.  “Oh no!  A sixteen year old girl in a two piece bathing suite!  Slap it on the cover of Newsweek!”  That’s not prudishness.  Prudishness tries to quietly sweep everything under the rug.  The prudes of the 50s and 60s wanted to NOT talk about divorce or sex or anything in appropriate.  News media gossip wants to blare sirens and ring bells and scream “LOOK AT THIS!” at the top of its lungs.  The prudish veil of disapproval lets anchors and show hosts hide the fact that they’re basically trafficking in (occasionally under-aged) porn.  But spending a week loudly and repeatedly broadcasting a picture of Anthony Weiner’s penis or Britney Spears’ “vajajay” is about as far away from prudish as you’re going to get.

I think the real word you’re aiming for here is “immature”.  We’ve lowered the discourse down to the kind of rhetoric a 2nd grader would appreciate in a race to appeal to the lowest common intellectual denominator.

Comment #6: Zifnab  on  06/07  at  05:13 PM

Absolutely, Jules.  One of the reasons I don’t like abusive porn—-amongst many!—-is that I think it’s prudish at its core.  It pretends to be all sexually free, but using sex to punish women for being exciting and for being free is about the most prudish thing you can do.  Which is why prudes and rape apologists are often the same people.

Zif, I disagree.  I believe prurience and prudishness are two sides of the same coin.  This Weiner scandal is a perfect example. I see a lot of people, smart people, make the mistake you’re making and mistake prurience for “sex saturation”.  But I generally find that sexually satisfied, liberated people are the absolute least interested in gonzo porn, tabloid prurience, etc. That stuff is for purdes.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  05:18 PM

Daisy, I think public adulteries provoke a lot of deep set fears that people have about their own lives.  I get that.  It’s hard not to immediately think, “Oh god, what if my husband cheated,” and the reaction is often to angrily punish the exposed adulterer in hopes that will somehow, miraculously, keep it from happening to you.  I’ve felt the urge.  I get it.

I think it’s a waste of time.  I think a better use of one’s energies is to create a mental game plan of what you would do if that happened.  If you can lay out the mental steps you’d have to go through in order to get yourself out of the relationship, into your new home, etc., it can often take the stress out of it.  A lot of what worries people is fear that they won’t know what to do next and that’s paralyzing.  But picturing the worst and planning for it can actually relieve you of the stress.  Faaaaaar more empowering than angrily lashing out at dudes who do cross the line.

Plus, I think a better way to keep someone honest in the face of temptation is to be confident, because if you exude confidence you also send the signal that you aren’t afraid to destroy the relationship should it stop working.  And that fear of loss can tip the scales, I’m guessing.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  05:24 PM

But if we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that’s not a good thing.  I would argue that’s a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development. (There’s even evidence that people, at least men, who wait until their mid-20s to start having sex suffer from greater levels of sexual dysfunction.)

First ever Pandagon comment from longtime reader follows…

Regarding the above quoted observation, I am forced to ask: Amanda, when and if you someday have kids, and if one of said kids tends toward the nerdy and non-socially-active end of the spectrum (as I and many of my acquaintances do), do you plan to quiz them on their virginity status once they hit 21?  And if they reply in the negative, what then is the response?

Comment #9: Rheinhard  on  06/07  at  05:25 PM

Hi Amanda, I think in general this article is spot on. As a 22-year old virgin, however, I do have to take issue with your assertion that there is something weird or wrong with me simply because of my sexual status.

It’s not that I’m prudish about sex (far from it, believe me), and I strongly oppose the anti-sexuality measures being pushed by interest groups around the world. It’s simply that I haven’t found myself in the right situation for it yet, and it’s not something I want to rush into just to get out of the way. I think part of being open, welcoming and non-prudish about sexual matters is recognising that everyone relates to issues differently, and that there is no single path of development that people have to follow to be considered normal.

Comment #10: k8207d  on  06/07  at  05:31 PM

But if we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that’s not a good thing.  I would argue that’s a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development.

Are you serious?

Or it could be that young people are justifiably (thanks to the economy and increasing pressure to get into/succeed in college) more preoccupied with other things.

Everyone needs to go at their own pace, and insisting there must be something “wrong” with someone who doesn’t fuck the first person who offers is really fucking insulting.

I was a late bloomer, not so much by choice as due to the incontrovertible fact that young men are often assholes, especially when sex is involved, and I didn’t want my first time to be with someone who didn’t give a fuck whether I had a good time and/or whether I was in pain.  But I guess that makes me (and many of my close friends) some sort of emotional cripple.

By and by, I’ve known many women who greatly regretted their first time, specifically because their first time was extremely uncomfortable, largely thanks to the asshole they chose to have sex with and the pressure they felt to just get it over with.

Comment #11: keshmeshi  on  06/07  at  05:32 PM

32 is really too old for Molly Jong-Fast to pick the opposite side of the fence from her mom just because it’s the opposite side of the fence. That’s the logic of a 15 year old. No, I don’t want to think about my mom having sex. That doesn’t mean I think all baby boomers shouldn’t have sex.

This seems less like an actual issue with sex and more like a childlike obsession with catching “cooties.” I know this statement is usually aimed at those of us that are unmarried without kids but..Grow up already!

Comment #12: shakahi  on  06/07  at  05:38 PM

I think part of being open, welcoming and non-prudish about sexual matters is recognising that everyone relates to issues differently, and that there is no single path of development that people have to follow to be considered normal.

Amen.  I thought the whole point of sexual liberation was that there was no one right way, or time, or whatever, to choose to have sex.  I mean, before I met my husband I wasn’t interested in having sex.  That didn’t mean I choose not to, or to save myself, or that I thought sex was icky.  I simply had not found anyone I wanted to have sex with, and I didn’t care enough to go actively looking.  And honestly, if you’d asked me when I was 20, I would have expected to stay a virgin for several more years.

As long as people are having or not having sex as they wish, everything else is just details.

Comment #13: Jayn Newell  on  06/07  at  05:43 PM

To an extent, the ongoing hysteria over pop stars being sexy.  I just don’t completely grasp why the fact that Miley Cyrus wears booty shorts is such a national scandal, honestly. When I was 8, 9, 10 years old, I loved Michael Jackson and Madonna, and both of them blew any kind of naughty crap Cyrus does out of the water.  Pop stars are supposed to be sexy.

I think there’s a big issue with the selling of underage sexuality. I don’t really care that teenagers are having sex (and to the extent that Miley Cyrus hysteria reflects that particular anxiety, it really is stupid). But I do think that there’s a strong argument for not deliberately sexualizing underage celebrities for marketing purposes, because that is a mild form of child sexual exploitation.

The reductio ad absurdum of this was John Benet Ramsey being entered into beauty pageants and getting all glammed up at age 5. Another ridiculous example was Britney Spears adopting all of the conventions of “barely legal” pornography (sexually teasing guys in a skimpily-cut schoolgirl outfit) in videos directed by a former porn director (Gregory Dark, who once directed Traci Lords when she was underage), when she was 15 or 16.

Remember, when Michael Jackson grabbed his crotch and Madonna did everything she did, they were both over 18 (and in Madonna’s case, well over 18). They were consenting adults. There’s a strong argument that selling the sexuality of children is different.

Comment #14: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  05:50 PM

This is all an argument with your own generation of post-adolescent American narcissists.
Meanwhile, Weiner was always a liar about more important things.

Comment #15: seth edenbaum  on  06/07  at  05:53 PM

32 is really too old for Molly Jong-Fast to pick the opposite side of the fence from her mom just because it’s the opposite side of the fence.

I disagree, and I liked Molly Jong-Fast’s conclusion—that she was just comfortable as a prude (at least compared to her mom), and that’s who she was, and that modern freedoms allow people to be who they are. No one should be forced by society to be a prude, but some people are and are going to be more comfortable that way.

Comment #16: Tyro  on  06/07  at  05:53 PM

Hey can anyone explain why there is an ETHICS investigation starting up for Weiner?  I mean what the hell?

Comment #17: Robert  on  06/07  at  06:02 PM

Anonymouse @5:  Larry Craig had a voting record as a “Family Values” “sanctity-of-marriage” conservative moralist, so the fact that he was trolling for gay sex in spite of his public persona was what made it so notable.  Larry Craig was someone not practicing what he was preaching.  I don’t like what Weiner did, but it’s not like he made his name by railing against the sort of thing he got caught doing, so in his case i am perfectly content to leave it alone.

Comment #18: MadRaven  on  06/07  at  06:04 PM

Not having kids, Rhein, but my mother did gently lean on me in my adolescence to find out if I was dating. And yes, I was a mildly late bloomer, and her concerns were valid!  If you’re not progressing at a normal pace, it could be an indicator of something really wrong with you or your life—-a good parent finds out.  Turns out that I wasn’t nearly the late bloomer she thought; just reticent.  And insofar as I was, I did have problems, mainly social.  They weren’t my fault, it turns out—-I was just not meant for our stifled small town life.  But it’s better to know, don’t you think?

But the issue here isn’t whether or not some late bloomers exist, and if they’re “wrong”.  (No, but in some cases there are issues!)  The issue here is if there is a rise is the number of later in life virgins, that could be an indicator of widespread social problems that are legitimately hurting them.  A rise in the number of people who potentially are lonely or ill-adjusted is something to investigate.  It may turn out to be nothing, but the automatic presumption that it’s a good thing if we see such a rise is wrong, wrong, wrong.  One hopes it’s not a bad thing, but good god, such a shift should at least be questioned strongly, if we care about the happiness of young people.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:13 PM

Everyone needs to go at their own pace, and insisting there must be something “wrong” with someone who doesn’t fuck the first person who offers is really fucking insulting.

Sigh.  I never said every person who is a 22-year-old virgin is in the wrong.  But a rise in the number of 22-year-old virgins could very easily be a sign of social problems that are going undetected.  One that easily comes to mind is that young people are making fewer friends for some reason, and therefore have fewer opportunities to date.

By the way, how dare you characterize anyone who has sex before 25 as “fucking the first person who asks”. That wasn’t me, nor is it true of the vast majority of people I know.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:15 PM

If Newt “Stupid Fuck” Gingrich can give his wife divorce papers in her hospital bed so he can go marry his mistress then fuck anyone who tries to make Weiner resign.

Comment #21: Dan  on  06/07  at  06:16 PM

I have a weird analogy to Amanda’s point in #19.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, there was a rapid fall in Russia’s birthrate due to serious economic troubles in the country.

Now, as a feminist-sympathizing liberal and a person who supports sexual freedom, I don’t have ANY problem with Russian couples choosing not to have children. Nor do I particularly buy into demographic scare tactics that you sometimes hear about from the natalist right. So if people want to have less kids, that’s certainly their right.

But that doesn’t mean that nobody should investigate the reasons for a drop in the birthrate. In fact, a drop in the birthrate could indicate, for instance, serious economic troubles. It could also correlate with increased depression and anxieties.

You would want to find these things out, even though there’s nothing particularly objectionable about people having less children

Comment #22: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:17 PM

This was very well said.

Comment #23: James  on  06/07  at  06:18 PM

think part of being open, welcoming and non-prudish about sexual matters is recognising that everyone relates to issues differently, and that there is no single path of development that people have to follow to be considered normal.

Absolutely.  Which is why a steady rate of late bloomers wouldn’t bother me at all.  A sudden rise, though?  That’s a matter of concern!  What’s changed?  It’s incredibly unlikely that the rate of “naturally” late bloomers changed by biology or whatever, so a social change is the likeliest cause.  And almost none of the possibilities are good:

*Like kesh’s story indicates, it could be a surge in young men not being suitable partners.

*It could mean that young people have fewer opportunities to meet people and are more lonely and alienated. 

*It could mean an unfortunate turn towards sexual conservatism in the young that could mean a right wing shift towards anti-choice and anti-gay attitudes.

Or it could be harmless.  The point is, these alarming possibilities require further investigation, not just an automatic response that less sex is better under all circumstances.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:20 PM

The alternate piece is hands down the best thing I’ve read regarding this entire shitshow, so while I’m irritated that this whole thing happened, at least it provided an opportunity for someone to speak the truth here.

I too have always seen prudery and prurience as mirror images of each other.  Growing up in fundieland provided me with much exposure to people waving a prude flag very noisily while being absolutely consumed with any scintilla of sex in a way that less prudish (or at least lest vocally prudish) people ever were.

Comment #25: chareth cutestory  on  06/07  at  06:22 PM

But I do think that there’s a strong argument for not deliberately sexualizing underage celebrities for marketing purposes, because that is a mild form of child sexual exploitation.

That’s fair, but I think for me that calls into question why we’ve developed this elaborate form of microtargeting of tweens that is deliberately and defensively different from what adults like.  It automatically creates these problems.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:23 PM

But I do think that there’s a strong argument for not deliberately sexualizing underage celebrities for marketing purposes, because that is a mild form of child sexual exploitation.

That’s fair, but I think for me that calls into question why we’ve developed this elaborate form of microtargeting of tweens that is deliberately and defensively different from what adults like.  It automatically creates these problems.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:23 PM

That’s fair, but I think for me that calls into question why we’ve developed this elaborate form of microtargeting of tweens that is deliberately and defensively different from what adults like.  It automatically creates these problems.

I think that’s right.

Comment #28: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:25 PM

So, out of curiosity then, what would be your prescribed course of treatment/investigation for, say, the 25 year old virgin?  Would it differ from the same for the 35 year old?

Comment #29: Rheinhard  on  06/07  at  06:25 PM

So, out of curiosity then, what would be your prescribed course of treatment/investigation for, say, the 25 year old virgin?  Would it differ from the same for the 35 year old?

You’ve missed the point. Nobody’s calling for “investigation” or “treatment” of individual virgins.

But if you have a statistic that says “more people are waiting longer” or even “more girls are waiting longer”, that statistic could be telling us many things about society in the form of the reasons why people may be making those choices, and it’s worth finding out what’s behind the statistics (and addressing it if it is some form of social problem).

Comment #30: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:30 PM

Rhein, I’m going to go ahead and refuse to conflate an individual person, with all their quirks and traits, and social trends across entire groups.  Sorry.  I realize you are very eager to bait me!  They are very different things!  That one person is a late bloomer is not the issue.  Good for them!  They should never have sex if they don’t want.

My only concern—-only concern—-is if there is a rise in late in life virgins.  This is not something that should be waved off as automatically good because Sex Is Bad.  Most people want sex.  That there is a sudden rise in people not getting what they want—-sex—-is something that should concern us.  I would also be concerned if there was a sudden rise in people who find it hard to make friends, if making friends is what they want.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:32 PM

Or, to put it more succinctly, if there was a sudden rise in people who don’t have many friends, I would not automatically say that it must reflect a sudden rise in people who don’t want friends. I would eliminate other, more troubling possibilities.  I would not suggest that an investigation into the decline in friend numbers is somehow anti-loner.  I’m all for loners.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  06:35 PM

Here, here,(or is it hear, hear?) Amanda! And I say that even though my own personal life tends depressingly toward the sedate. Someday, I could break loose and I want the right.
And what Weiner did? Doesn’t strike me as all that serious, compared to the good he’s done and said. I am still a Woman for Weiner.
Let’s all fight back against the Helen Lovejoys. Life is messy and complicated and sweaty and that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

Comment #33: chicating  on  06/07  at  06:53 PM

I am still a Woman for Weiner.

And that’s sex-positive feminism! smile

Comment #34: Dilan Esper  on  06/07  at  06:55 PM

Thank you.
I’m bisexual, but I doubt I’ll ever have to defend Rep. Pudenda, so, you know! smile

Comment #35: chicating  on  06/07  at  07:05 PM

Amanda, maybe your married friends react more negatively to the story because a spouse who cheats is regarded by them as a selfish asshole. Which they are. So yes, unless Wiener has an open marriage, he is a selfish asshole, and kind of stupid to boot.  And yes, while the media feeding frenzy is obnoxious,  stupid selfish assholes getting raked over the coals provides many people with a certain level of enjoyable shadenfreude if not a sense of justice done, particularly when the dick in question is powerful/rich. Now if only this applied to republicans.

Comment #36: clearskies  on  06/07  at  07:13 PM

clear, are you actually suggesting that someone is less capable of understanding morality because they’re unmarried?  That strikes me as incorrect.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  07:15 PM

Anyway, I’ve had my share of long term relationships.  I’m acutely aware of how much other people’s relationship problems can provoke your own anxieties.  I’m amused at how when I make these arguments, a lot of people approach me like I’m a 19-year-old who has never had a relationship before.  I’m kind of a pro at it.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  07:18 PM

Anyway, I’ve had my share of long term relationships.  I’m acutely aware of how much other people’s relationship problems can provoke your own anxieties.  I’m amused at how when I make these arguments, a lot of people approach me like I’m a 19-year-old who has never had a relationship before.  I’m kind of a pro at it.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/07  at  07:18 PM

What’s relevant and newsworthy is whether Weiner did this with Congressional resources and/or on Congressional time and whether any of the women were underage or otherwise non-consenting.

All those gratuitously salacious little details people are feigning like they’re so shocked about are nobody’s business.

Comment #40: snobographer  on  06/07  at  07:22 PM

The linked article also reports that fewer 15 to 24 year olds “say” they’ve had sexual contact. So some of them may have had sex, but be unwilling to report it, even in a survey. The reluctance to discuss having sex also goes along with an increase in prudery/being encouraged to think sex is a bad thing, and can go with a host of other problems: feeling too ashamed to get birth control, inability to communicate needs/desires with partners, feeling isolated because no one in a friends group discusses sex and everyone thinks that they’re alone and doing something bad, and so on. Not that all of these happen for everyone, and I didn’t source up the original study to see if they just looked at self-reporting, but it goes with what Amanda was saying, when you see a big shift in numbers for something like that, you want to know why, not just assume “sex is bad, so less in life is better”

Comment #41: midorime  on  06/07  at  08:16 PM

His argument was that marriage is a toxic institution that was invented to stifle human freedom, especially women’s freedom.  And that by making it the focus of gay rights, you were reinforcing the notion that human rights are contingent on one’s compliance with prudish, patriarchal norms

He’s right, that’s been a theory since the early 70’s Gay Liberation days.  I know three couples that couldn’t wait to get married in the early wave of gay marriages in California because they thought it legitimized their relationships. One has split up, the other will be soon, plus they have uncertain legal issues because gay marriage is legally uncertain now.  Marriage isn’t a cure-all.

Comment #42: Henry Holland  on  06/07  at  08:27 PM

Any social historian will tell you that the victorian era was a hotbed (ahem) of twisted porn (and of course prostitution) the the big difference between that and today is the overt sexualization of women and girls in pretty much every phase of commerce—the prudery today seems almost entirely about sexual agency.

But in addition to backlash, I think the intertubes and the resulting universality of everything have also played a pretty big role. It used to be that the mores of tiny little sex-phobic towns were mostly interesting to the townspeople themselves, and to the occasional ambitious prosecutor who could get some poor sap porn merchant to deliver smut to a place where it would violate “community standards” and rack up a bunch of convictions. But now all the prudes can’t (as easily) pretend that the world of people who enjoy sex doesn’t exist, and we can’t pretend that they don’t exist.

(Oh, and yeah, having a bunch of pathological right-wing shills selecting what stories run on video outlets and in local papers doesn’t help much either.)

Comment #43: paul  on  06/07  at  08:39 PM

I do understand that, MadRaven, I’m just not sure that being a hypocritical sleaze (Craig) is so much worse (legally or reporting-wise) than being a lying, fund-misappropriating sleaze (Weiner).  In both cases it just seems to me the sex part is still largely personal.  Though of course it was never going to stay personal - if they’d said Craig was in trouble for solicitation people wouldn’t have rested until they knew the salacious details, same with Weiner, I guess.  People want the sexy details either way.  Naturally in Craig’s case it made it *funnier* that it was gay sex because of who he was.  Not because there’s something inherently funny about gay sex.

Comment #44: Anonymouse  on  06/07  at  08:41 PM

I absolutely think we’ve gotten more prudish. I was losing my virginity and slutting it up in college in the ‘80s, and nobody in the mainstream media was having panic attacks about the “hook-up” culture. People just had sex. Some people had a lot of sex, some people not so much, but nobody much worried about it. Birth control was easily available and pretty cheap. There were no “purity balls” and abstinence clubs, etc. to throw a damper on things. It was a fun time.

And the Church Lady bit was funny because it was satire. In today’s climate, it almost looks like a documentary.

Comment #45: Phoebe Fay  on  06/07  at  09:08 PM

Amanda, I think the reaction of your married friends is projection, i.e., they see themselves in the role of the injured spouse(or, perhaps, the injuring spouse), and they react as though it was happening to them.

It’s like when one can’t watch an operation or medical procedure being done to someone else, and one get squeamish, part of it is the unconscious reaction to having it done to oneself.

But in New Prude America, the fact that Jong-Fast is a judgmental prude who picks on her much more interesting mother is considered not only newsworthy but arguably admirable.  Barf.

It reminds me of this from Monty Python.

 

Comment #46: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/07  at  09:26 PM

I never said every person who is a 22-year-old virgin is in the wrong.  But a rise in the number of 22-year-old virgins could very easily be a sign of social problems that are going undetected.

Or it could be a sign of something going right.  At universities where men outnumber women, women wait longer to start sexual activity.  At universities where women outnumber men, there’s hardly a female virgin to be found.  There are a number of possible explanations, but one is that, when women feel the need to compete for men, they feel compelled to have sex sooner than they otherwise would like.  How is that a good thing?  And why can’t teens waiting longer to have sex indicate that maybe, just maybe, girls are feeling empowered to be more picky and are less likely to tolerate bullshit from boys?

And, you weren’t suggesting that *maybe* there’s something wrong with 22-year-old virgins:

But if we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that’s not a good thing.  I would argue that’s a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development.

Comment #47: keshmeshi  on  06/07  at  09:38 PM

No female virgins in college?  Oh no, what ever should we do?

Comment #48: Robert  on  06/07  at  10:04 PM

Any social historian will tell you that the victorian era was a hotbed (ahem) of twisted porn (and of course prostitution) the the big difference between that and today is the overt sexualization of women and girls in pretty much every phase of commerce—the prudery today seems almost entirely about sexual agency.

Comment #43: paul

I can’t find the resource to substantiate this assertion, but I’ve heard Utah is the porn-consumption capital of the U.S. And there was that big Taliban/Al Qaeda porn stash. The more sexually repressed people are, the more sex-obsessed. Sex becomes that big deviant elephant in the room that you can’t take your eyes off of.

This part of your comment though: “the prudery today seems almost entirely about sexual agency.”
I’m not following. Prudes don’t believe in sexual agency. Women are passive vessels and men are a miniskirt away from committing rape. Perhaps that was your point. They’re anti-sexual agency?

Comment #49: snobographer  on  06/07  at  10:23 PM

^source, that is. Not resource.

Comment #50: snobographer  on  06/07  at  10:23 PM

It would be nice if the college women interviewed for the survey were just replying “none of your damn business” and it was being translated into “still a virgin,” but I doubt it.

When you look at the women who are 22 and in college now, they were in high school during the height of Bush Jr’s Abstinence Only Education—which was

a) not actually delaying the onset of sexual intercourse by any significant period of time, studies indicated it would only make someone hold out for an average 4-6 months longer

b) very heteronormative—sex is taught as only being PIV intercourse—so respondents may truly think of themselves as virgins because they only do oral or anal.

c) unilaterally obsessed with female purity while dismissive of the female sex drive at the same time presenting the male sex drive as predatory—girls are instructed that they are gatekeepers and that having sex before marriage is a failure to perform that job well (and who wants to admit to being a failure?). This gets us into…

d) heaped with slut-shaming, misogynistic crap that could give any woman a hangup about her sex life and wish to identify falsely as a virgin in order to appear to be a good girl to any random person who happens to ask.

Remember, in the last 15 years we have gone crazy with slut-shaming. They know who Perez Hilton is, they know how much mileage people got out of Britney and Paris. These women aren’t stupid, they’re trying to protect themselves from the sort of nasty invective we’ve learned to aim at sexually active women by pretending they aren’t sexually active. And when you stay silent about it, you allow this shit to persist.

So yeah, major problems.

Comment #51: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/07  at  10:30 PM

Molly writes like she’s twelve.
Maybe she, Katie Roiphe, and Rebecca Walker could have a Supremes-style “I Hate You, Mom!! You ruined my life…now get my book published!” tour and spare the rest of us.

Comment #52: chicating  on  06/07  at  10:30 PM

source.

Comment #53: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/07  at  10:31 PM

A study is released that shows that 1/3 of young people 15-24 have never had sex, and this was published uncritically in the vast majority of media outlets as if it was an unobjectionably good thing, on the grounds that less sex is somehow automatically better.

I clicked on the version attached (don’t know what headlines or other editing got inserted by other media), and the story didn’t look that way to me.  It was classic bland USA Today and carefully written.  Neutral, on-the-one-hand-on-the-other.  The first expert quoted said the explanations probably included fears of disease but more positive reasons too, perhaps.  The other opinions offered were only about the quality of the survey and how to classify oral sex.

Comment #54: Unree  on  06/07  at  10:43 PM

@9, 10, 11, 13:

As someone who didn’t lose his virginity until he was 21, let me just say: shut the fuck up. Are you capable of conceiving of the fact that Amanda was not talking about you?

Let me be clear: waiting a long time to have sex is not something be ashamed of or something that anyone should tell you is wrong. But it is also not something to be proud of. I heard enough “oh, being a virgin is a good thing!” bullshit throughout my life, and I rejected it at every point. To be frank, if I could go back in time and arrange it so that I lost my virginity at, say, 16, I would.

If you feel differently, fine, but stop buying into the bullshit notion that being a virgin is a virtue just because it stokes your ego.

Comment #55: Triplanetary  on  06/07  at  10:44 PM

I had my first sexual encounter in my twenties, and I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Amanda’s thesis. I was and still am very shy, and throughout high school most girls openly despised me, so I never talked to any. Having my first relationship in my twenties made it far more traumatic when it fell apart, partially due to my ‘nice guy’ tendencies blinding me to the fact she really wasn’t into me.

It seemed silly to me to consider her not liking me anything like a moral failing, which I guess kept me from going all misogynist. Even twenty years later I have difficulty connecting with women, though I’ve never even considered blaming women for it rather than myself.

Comment #56: Mark Temporis  on  06/07  at  10:57 PM

maybe, just maybe, girls are feeling empowered to be more picky

Pfft. Being picky is what girls are “supposed” to do. Otherwise they’re “sluts.”

Conformity is not empowerment.

Comment #57: Kurt Horner  on  06/07  at  11:19 PM

As someone who lost her virginity in her 20’s, I would also go back in time and lose it in high school, if I could. Not so much because I think losing it in your 20’s is a bad thing, but because waiting didn’t protect me from losing it to an asshole who pretended to care to get in my pants. Not that I was saving myself for marriage or anything, mind you, I just wanted it to be a “real,” lasting relationship with someone who gave a damn. Instead, I got someone who pretended to give a damn, I think simply because I was the last virgin in our social circle and that was a novelty. Since I was and am VERY shy and it’s hard for me to connect with people anyway, his cheating on me like the week after kind of messed me up for awhile.

Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I can see that it would have been so much better if my first time were with my male best friend in high school (I was scared of screwing up the friendship) or my first and only high school boyfriend (he was moving a month after we started dating.) In other words, I should have emphasized “giving a damn” over “lasting relationship potential.”

Waiting until your 20’s isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not necessarily a good thing either. It’s pretty normal to lose your virginity in high school or early college- that’s what our bodies are kind of telling us to do. More girls waiting until their older is only a good thing if said waiting isn’t motivated by fear and results in better sex and fewer bad experiences.  If girls are waiting because they’re scared, because there are no decent guys to be with, because they’re afraid of being called sluts or because they think that if they wait they’ll be rewarded with Prince Charming, then those statistics aren’t positive at all. 

Comment #58: wednesdayaddams  on  06/07  at  11:28 PM

Amanda, I don’t entirely disagree with your overall points (nor entirely agree), but to address this in particular, from one of your comments:

If you’re not progressing at a normal pace, it could be an indicator of something really wrong with you or your life

And who decides what is a “normal pace” for a given person, or age group, or whatever? We’re not talking about height and weight of toddlers here. If you take two 16 year olds, and one has had intercourse with four people, and the other has only kissed a couple people, is one of them normal and the other not? I say “normal” is whatever an individual is comfortable with, and that might be really different from what you or I or John Q Sexually-Active-Teen is comfortable with.

Anecdote: I had sex for the first time at 17, and trust me, it was a bad choice. If I could go back I’d do things very differently. But I was rather unattractive as a teen - overweight, bad skin, frizzy hair I couldn’t control, etc - and a big part of the reason I hadn’t fucked anyone by that point was because no one wanted to fuck me, because they weren’t physically attracted to me. Even if I’d lost weight and wore make-up and whatnot, I still just am not a conventionally attractive person, and teenage boys in general (especially in my shitty hometown) only want to fuck pretty girls. So then this older douche comes along and - as I realized years later - totally took advantage of me and I went along with it because I was thinking “Finally someone wants to fuck me”. But it wasn’t a good experience and it wasn’t healthy. If I hadn’t fucked him (or the second guy, who was also a big mistake) I would have been a virgin for much longer…but it would have been a much better choice for me.

I know you’re talking in general terms, but when you use that word “normal”, that’s bad generalization. There’s no such thing as normal, and if you insist there is, in a lot of cases you’re only going to do more damage to the people who fall outside your definition of normal. If I hadn’t slept with the first two guys and my mom came to me at 18 worried that I’d only had a few kisses at that point, I can’t imagine what that would have done to my already low self-esteem. And short of waving a wand and making teenage boys less douchey, there wouldn’t have been anything my mom could have done to “fix” things.

Comment #59: Alison  on  06/07  at  11:35 PM

Normal doesnt mean good. And not normal doesn’t mean bad. If you’re a 16 year old, it is normal to be interested in sex. If you aren’t then a person who cares about you is entitled to make sure everything is ok. Maybe things are fine, and you’re just a late bloomer, or reticent, or asexual. Or maybe you’re not ok. But either way, people who care about you can and should try to make sure everything is ok.

No one is saying that if you didn’t lose your virginity by 20 you’re a freak with problems. But if young people en masse start delaying sex til their late 20s then yeah, that’s probably problematic, if you believe that sex is good for enthusiastically consenting teenagers and young adults.

Comment #60: Denise  on  06/08  at  12:04 AM

To be frank, if I could go back in time and arrange it so that I lost my virginity at, say, 16, I would.

Yeah, me too. I probably would have dumped my high school boyfriend a lot sooner if we’d had sex earlier on - I might have realized that instead of twoo wuv it was just attraction to his perfect hair and Freddie Prinze-like good looks. Instead we delayed sex for a couple of years and got stuck in what ended up being a fairly toxic relationship. He wasn’t a bad guy or anything, we just didn’t suit.

The media trope I hate most is “Young girls are being taught to be too sexual too soon!” No, they’re being taught to dress/act sexy, but they get precisely zero encouragement to feel or express their sexuality. Yeah, it’s creepy to see 13-year-olds in sexy outfits, but it’s not super depressing like the fact that said 13-year-old has a good chance of being taught in public school that girls who have/enjoy sex are like a cup full of spit.

I had a conversation like that with a couple of ladies in their sixties the other day and when I said that I thought young girls needed the space to explore their own sexual feelings they looked at me like I had an extra head.

 

Comment #61: KristinMH  on  06/08  at  12:08 AM

This is a minor quibble, but I am really skeptical of that study about sexual dysfunction the way it is always reported. How did they determine causality? It makes more sense that having sexual dysfunction would cause one to lose his virginity later, not the other way around.

I think part of what feeds American prudery is that while we expect high schoolers to not ever here the word sex or know what it is, pop culture portends that everyone must be totally awesome and non-awkward at sex the moment they start college. Young men, I think, are especially stigmatized for not having been laid. I think taking the shame away from virginity would actually help combat prudery by making the accidentally inexperienced less self-conscious.

Comment #62: alysia  on  06/08  at  12:24 AM

I can say with certainty that I didn’t start having sex until my twenties b/c I was screwed up.  And I wouldn’t go back and change it, b/c changing just that one thing, without changing everything around me that was contributing to my bad situation at the time, would have made it all that much worse.  It wasn’t safe to be having sex, and my emotional maturity and understanding of my own sexuality were stunted, to say the least.  Intellectually, I was advanced enough to see that sex would be a bad idea.  For me, waiting was a good decision, but my experience does agree with Amanda’s supposition that a sudden rise in waiting suggests taking a look at the circumstances driving those decisions.

Comment #63: bomberE  on  06/08  at  01:08 AM

Another issue I find myself at odds with against my former self.  I used to be an utter prude, now the thought of a traditional relationship seems creepy and suffocating.  Good thing I was an unlikeable nerd back then, I doubt I influenced many.

Comment #64: LemonCat  on  06/08  at  02:21 AM

All I can say about this article is good! The feminazis, perverts,sickos,deviants and freakshows who have had too much power and influence for so long, are having this come back to bite them in the ass cause people aren’t going to stand for this anymore!!!

Comment #65: Iamrightandyouareallwrong  on  06/08  at  02:30 AM

Oh and the alternet article written in defense of him,shows the hypocrisy of it all. People aren’t going to stand for this anymore,and they’re going to do something about it.

Comment #66: Iamrightandyouareallwrong  on  06/08  at  02:33 AM

The best way to bite a feminazi or a pervert in the ass and make them pay for their hypocrisy is to make sure you’re as prudish and get as little sex as possible. That’ll really show them.

Comment #67: junk science  on  06/08  at  02:55 AM

A bit late to the party, but I don’t think it’s as bad as you argue.

Or rather it’s bad, really bad in a few key areas, but that’s not the same as society as a whole.

I think the prudes are getting some nasty hits. The ubiquity of the internet is making porn and awareness of diverse sexual activities a well-known thing, especially among the young. The panolpy of human erotic expression is literally just a web search away and I see among young people raised repressed a firm unescapable knowledge that the “sexual moralities” claimed by their elders are not necessarily applicable in any way.

With the growth of Republican sex scandals (I mean, it used to be only Democrats getting caught because “Republicans have family values” so any hooker play was erased in an afternoon and forgotten over the spin, whereas now, the internet remembers and mocks long after the fact).

We have popular sex advice columnists and more people asking basic questions about consent and pleasure.

That’s our culture, our society.

So why does it seem so much worse?

Because our traditional information sources and political debates have gotten really bad and in some ways worse than it has been.

In the 90s, TV, movies, news media, and even some political debates were starting to slowly pull out of the hideous fundie-dominated rot of the 80s and actually start slowly talking about sex. But at the same time, the rot of the 80s didn’t die. It manifested itself in ever consolidating media companies, the buying out of traditional media, and so on.

And right now, we have a news media and a political debate which is dominated by those voices that feel themselves being pushed out by the culture at large and they will make themselves heard against this uppity internet and this pesky reality.

The prudes own our media conversations (this is evident by any Villager response to anything political which is to reduce it to Freudian repressed psychodramas and to titter like stereotypes about schoolgirls at the barest mention of the “bawdy”, oh mah lawd!). And the media dominate the “national conversation”, a problem made worse by our political class entirely made of ever-worsening sociopaths and hordes of over-privileged cowards who can’t ever be bothered to stand up for people who aren’t themselves.

But this is at war with where we are as a society and I think we’re seeing that. I think things like Twilight are revealing it. Twilight is abstinence porn, but that’s just it, it’s still porn. It has it’s fanbase and watchers because for too long our pop culture, especially movies have tried to deny and handwave the fact that there is such a thing as the female gaze. That straight women might want expensive blockbusters full of beefcake that they can just lizard brain and enjoy the scenery to in the same way that straight dudes go to things like Transformers.

We see the success of that, causing other filmmakers to acknowledge the female straight fan in other blockbuster works such as Thor.

And let’s not forget that in the same era where Twilight has become really popular so has “The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo” series.

Also notice how much thunder has fallen out of usual fundie anti-fun demonization targets. Sure, they are making good progress beating on sluts, but fundies used to have a panoply of anti-fun targets for which they enjoyed large popular support. Rock music, dancing, Halloween, cos-play in general, entertainment by non-Western sources, “the occult”, and of course tabletop gaming.

These were scourges that the same “serious voices” chimed in with the anti-fun brigade and had to “cover the scandal”. Remember the backlash to Harry Potter?

And now?

Those fights have been mostly won. No one cares about the sad pathetic remains of Hell Houses. They’ve had to move entirely into obvious racial dogwhistles to even keep the “anti-rock” crusade going and even then the anti-rap crusade isn’t getting play outside Fox News. Tabletop gaming is Satan is such a laughable meme that middle-age people barely connected to internet memes are laughing about it. And so on.

The anti-fun people are losing. And like all conservatives who are losing power while still holding a lot of money, they are determined to get their revenge on all us bastards who dared to make them feel like the small repressed people that they are.

Comment #68: Cerberus  on  06/08  at  02:59 AM

And not feeding the trolls, but desperate troll demonstrates that nicely.

The bitter repressed are losing a lot of ground. The internet reveals who we are and makes it harder to prevent that reality from being seen and the more it’s seen, the fewer people are made to feel alone and “strange” over what are usually very mundane sexual fantasies.

They are “striking back” and “getting their revenge” and “taking America back from the deviants” who used to have the good sense to stay in the closet and not make good decent wholesome prostitute-fucking diaper-fetishists have to acknowledge them.

Which is not what people who are defending the status quo and winning usually say.

People who have the power of society and stand for the “old” don’t have to. They make some vague appeals to “good standard values” and laugh at the feeble attempts by the freaks to overturn “natural order”.

Instead they are ranting about “the return of moral values”.

They’re not winning, but damnitt, with a national media wholesale devolving into their personal propaganda factory, they damn well will sound like they are.

Comment #69: Cerberus  on  06/08  at  03:06 AM

And I know I’m posting a lot, but:

“Kids should be taught to honor their sexualities, to demand the right to feel pleasure (with the enthusiastic consent caveat!), and to value sexual diversity, because sex is a good thing.  It’s part of being human. Pleasure is how we know we’re alive.”

This, more or less.

How sex education is taught in this question is like a lot of fights at the political level. Right-wing terrorism has cowed educators and more often administrators from bothering to fight it and so we get a lot of useless fear-mongering about how “the gun is good, the penis is evil” posing as sex education.

A simple rational explanation of pleasure and fetish, of desire and expression, and especially of consent, how to value consent, and how to know oneself so you know how to express yourself for consent is what kids really need.

I wouldn’t want a “you should all be fucking” because there’s going to be asexuals, kids who aren’t ready yet, and kids who are already feeling pressure from their partners and society to rush into things, but since any sex education that actually talked about sex would probably acknowledge all that, yeah, full support.

Kids essentially need an official version of the Midwest Teen Sex Show, so they can best navigate the repressed ravaged land of sexuality that is society (hey, I said it’s getting a lot better, not that it’s anywhere near good).

Comment #70: Cerberus  on  06/08  at  03:12 AM

I agree, the alternet piece is the best I’ve read on this so far, and I do wish we’d return to the idea of private life is private, unless you’re hurting someone else by, say, urging prosecution for others who are doing the same things you’re doing.
Weiner and Spitzer were both taken down for trying to oppose the corporate takeover of our society,and they had to be silenced.  It’s unfortunate that both had weaknesses that were able to be used against them, but remember, their enemies were actively looking for a way to take them down.  Losing men like them who were fighting for our interests, and replacing them with people who will dance with them what brung em, as Molly Ivins would have said, is a loss for us all.

Comment #71: gretchen  on  06/08  at  03:46 AM

If you feel differently, fine, but stop buying into the bullshit notion that being a virgin is a virtue just because it stokes your ego.

I don’t think any of us were saying that.  What we were referring to was Amanda’s implication that waiting that long to lose ones virginity is by definition a bad thing.  I’m not proud of having waited as long as I did, nor am I ashamed—it’s how things happened, and it’s what was right for me.  I just don’t want to fight ‘sex is bad’ with ‘not having sex is bad’, which is how Amanda’s piece reads.

Comment #72: Jayn Newell  on  06/08  at  08:28 AM

It’s fascinating how much even qualifiers don’t quell the defensive. Honestly, being overly defensive about being a late bloomer strikes me as probably not the best of signs that you’re Just Fine With It Shut Up.  It’s alarming to me the energy spilled to get people to not even ask questions i there’s a sudden surge in people not doing something most people want to do, i.e. have sex.

Comment #73: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/08  at  09:16 AM

It’s fascinating how much even qualifiers don’t quell the defensive. Honestly, being overly defensive about being a late bloomer strikes me as probably not the best of signs that you’re Just Fine With It Shut Up.  It’s alarming to me the energy spilled to get people to not even ask questions i there’s a sudden surge in people not doing something most people want to do, i.e. have sex.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/08  at  09:16 AM

Amanda’s implication that waiting that long to lose ones virginity is by definition a bad thing.

Amanda did not say that. So quit it already. Do you get all defensive when someone says that “It’s normal to start talking around the age of 1 -2”? Do you scream and shout about the poor toddlers who don’t speak a word until they’re for, and how dare you make them feel bad for having something wrong with them?

No, because you accept the idea that there are “normal” (in the descriptive, not prescriptive sense) stages of development that human beings go through. But for some reason, having sex for the first time is different, anomalous, off-limits. You can’t or shouldn’t make routine observations, like, “Most people want sex,” or, “It’s normal to have sex a few years after you hit puberty.” Gosh, I wonder why that is—couldn’t possibly have anything to do with prudery, could it?

Comment #75: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  09:33 AM

“Four” not “for.” Toddlers who don’t speak a word until they’re four. But you probably understood that.

Comment #76: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  09:34 AM

I might be cynical but I do think that at age 32 taking a stance that is in direct opposition to your mother may not be delayed adolescent rebellion, but it is trying to cash in on your famous mothers name.

And thank you for bringing up how the gossip media treats women because I don’t think most people realize the enormous affect those rags have on people. Outside of his parents house, I haven’t been to one home in my husbands small hometown where there weren’t at least three trashy magazines on the coffee table. And they all chronicle who is sleeping with whom, who is getting married and who is having a baby. But what is conspicuously absent from these stories is any judgmental wording against the men who are sleeping with whomever they wish, getting married for perhaps the third time or fathering children without benefit of marriage. All of the “harrumphing” in the gossip rags seems to be directed straight at women.

Comment #77: serious bette  on  06/08  at  09:53 AM

snobographer:

Yeah, what I mean is that prudes are against women having sex agency. Women as sex objects (especially the titillating ostensible virgin) they can’t (ahem) get enough of. But women as people who like and want sex for reasons that have nothing to do with wanting the approval of men, not so much. That’s why prudes and porn go together so well.

Oh, and also: when I say porn I’m sometimes using a more inclusive definition. Those scenes of women in every bleeping mcho movie or edgy crime drama being tied up, beaten, mutilated, or of guys ditto getting shot in super-slo-mo? That’s as much porn (if not moreso) than the presumptively-naked man and woman rolling around making gasping noises.

Comment #78: paul  on  06/08  at  10:02 AM

trying to cash in on your famous mothers name

Amanda’s mother is famous? Either way, how the fuck is she getting paid for adding comments to the comment section on her own blog about her upbringing? What a crass and pointless accusation.

Comment #79: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  10:17 AM

75 comments in and no one has thrown in no one has touched on the hipster parts of the piece? For shame! What has trolling come to?

Comment #80: LC  on  06/08  at  10:22 AM

“But if we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that’s not a good thing.  I would argue that’s a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development. “

Amanda, can you really not see why that statement makes people defensive?  Some people delay sex for reasons that have nothing to do with social or sexual problems, and not having sex does not mean they are not experiencing and enjoying the sexual aspects of their personality.  Focusing on “having sex” is pretty narrow—there are many ways to experience pleasure, and “having sex” is just one of them.

Comment #81: Kit-Kat  on  06/08  at  10:39 AM

#79 SallyStrange:

Serious bette’s comment was a reference to Molly Jong-Fast (whose mother was famous), not to Amanda.

Comment #82: mr_subjunctive  on  06/08  at  10:42 AM

Amanda’s mother is famous? Either way, how the fuck is she getting paid for adding comments to the comment section on her own blog about her upbringing? What a crass and pointless accusation.

She’s not referring to Amanda. She’s referring to Molly Jong-Fast.

Amanda, can you really not see why that statement makes people defensive?  Some people delay sex for reasons that have nothing to do with social or sexual problems, and not having sex does not mean they are not experiencing and enjoying the sexual aspects of their personality.  Focusing on “having sex” is pretty narrow—there are many ways to experience pleasure, and “having sex” is just one of them.

Aaand, whatever happened to “It’s not about you?”

Comment #83: StarStorm  on  06/08  at  10:44 AM

Oops. Please pardon my misunderstanding.

Comment #84: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  10:55 AM

Our culture is wildly unbalanced in its scrutiny of sexual choices. If you’re a woman who has sex outside of a committed relationship, you’ll be analyzed as having daddy issues, low self-esteem, an abusive childhood, etc. Stay chaste and you’re “waiting until it’s right” unless you’re quite vocal about it and past a certain age.

But opting out is worth discussing. I know people who don’t have sex because it works best for them. But I know others who waited/are waiting because they .... were brainwashed with Madonna/Whore thinking; were sold false information about condom efficiency and STIs; had ludicrous entitlement about the beauty and status of the partner they deserved; had a wildly unrealistic fairytale vision of the relationship they deserved; had terrible social skills; had painful and isolating body image issues.  Unfortunately everything is so hyper-sexualized these days that it’s hard to discuss it without people getting defensive or feeling shamed.

Comment #85: Veronica  on  06/08  at  11:18 AM

Amanda, I think I came off a bit wrong.  I was referring to your original piece, and how we initially responded to it, not your later comments.  Initially you did come off as saying that people who waited to have sex had something wrong with them.

Sally, there’s a difference between saying X is normal and saying that deviating from the norm is a bad thing.  And when you get to the latter, yeah I do tend to get defensive because I’ve spent most of my life dealing with being ‘not normal’ in some ways and I’m fucking sick of people telling me not only what normal is, but how I’m a Bad Person who has Something Wrong With Them because the person I am isn’t the person they think I should be.

Comment #86: Jayn Newell  on  06/08  at  11:31 AM

@Jayn Newell:  You’re *absolutely correct* that there’s a difference between saying X is normal and saying that deviating from the norm is a bad thing.  Even if we’re able to define the norm, average, or median on any given issue (which can be surpassingly difficult), a person isn’t a victim just because they aren’t Normal. 

But I’m surprised to see @SallyStrange making that point, considering that just yesterday she argued that she was “made” to feel like a “a freak of a woman” when Monica Hesse wrote an article in the WaPo about how most women don’t enjoy hottt nekkid photos of men, but she (@SallyStrange) does.

Comment #87: CW21  on  06/08  at  11:58 AM

@StarStorm—I know it’s not about me, but I still think the post was unnecessarily negative about people who have sex later in part because it assumes that “having sex” is the way that you “honor your sexuality” and “experience pleasure.”  When, in fact, there are lots of ways to experience pleasure and enjoy being a sexual person without having sex.  We rightfully mock the efficacy of abstinence-only education when it produces a bunch of teens who do everything but have vaginal sex so they can remain “virgins,” because we recognize what a narrow view of sexuality that is.  Before I say that people delaying sex is a problem, I’d like to know why they are delaying it, how they think and feel about their sexuality, and what other forms of pleasure they are enjoying.  The goal should not be a society in which everyone has sex by the time they are 21, but a society in which everyone (1) has the education and resources to have sex safely, (2) refrains from judging others for their sexual decisions (assuming those decisions involve truly consensual sex), and (3) can make decisions about how and when to exercise their own sexuality without pressure either to engage in sex before they feel ready or to refrain from sex merely for fear of judgment. 

That said, the word “vajayjay” drives me completely up the wall.  As do the Twilight books (as to which, I highly recommend going to NPR and finding Monkey See’s “I Will if You Will” book club discussion of the first novel—I think they did three discussions, and they are hilarious and insightful.)

Comment #88: Kit-Kat  on  06/08  at  12:00 PM

Generally agreed, but I have to chime in on this, from the link about Gail Dines -

What about when girls make out because dudes want them to?  Doesn’t that piss you off?  (This came upon “World Have Your Say”.)
Sure, but I believe strongly that we should lay blame on people who are hurting or exploiting others. I don’t blame girls who succumb to this ritual even when they feel humiliated by it.  What precisely did they do wrong?  Is it that they wanted to be liked?  That they wanted to be adventurous?  That they wanted to be sexually exciting?  These are all either understandable or even good desires to have.
I blame those who exploit the goodness in young women to get them to do things those women don’t want to do. So I blame the guys exerting this pressure for being evil fuckwits.

This is, frankly, quite prudish. Women who kiss each other as part of the hooking up ritual are automatically victims who can’t possibly have had the idea to do so on their own? Please. Are you serious? And any guy who likes to see such a thing is an “evil fuckwit”? That’s being prudish. Look, Joe Francis is a douchebag of the highest order, if that’s what you’re talking about. But you’re just taking agency away from women with blanket statements like you’ve made here. Most of the situations in which such a thing occurs have nothing to do with him or girls gone wild or whatever, it’s just elevated flirting among friends of prospective hookup partners. No need to create victims and then speak on their behalf where there is no victim and the women involved would likely tell you to mind your own business and let them do as they please.

Comment #89: onceler  on  06/08  at  12:08 PM

His wife is insanely hot, too.  I just don’t get it.

hey now. That’s kissin’ cousins to “wives have to stay hot otherwise their husbands will have no choice but to cheat on them.”

Also, we don’t know what the deal is with their marriage. If we are to believe he came clean at the press conference, he never had physical intercourse with any of the women he sexted. He flirted. I can’t speak for her, but I know some women actually get a bit of a charge over the fact that their husband is a flirt and a lot of women want to fuck him but when it comes down to it he only gets down with her. I mean, we don’t even have to get into “do they have an open marriage or don’t they” at this point. I *really* can’t sign onto the idea that flirting is adultery.

Comment #90: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/08  at  12:12 PM

And who decides what is a “normal pace” for a given person, or age group, or whatever? We’re not talking about height and weight of toddlers here. If you take two 16 year olds, and one has had intercourse with four people, and the other has only kissed a couple people, is one of them normal and the other not? I say “normal” is whatever an individual is comfortable with, and that might be really different from what you or I or John Q Sexually-Active-Teen is comfortable with.

Comment #59: Alison

There are three different definitions, statistical, social and biological.  Two data points makes for lousy statistics.  You’re being defensive over your personalization of statistical trends in society with your personal experience.  Sorry, but you’re just a data point.

You can say that “normal” is whatever a person is comfortable with, if every person was raised in a vacuum and had no interactions with society at large.  But since people aren’t lab animals that can be isolated from birth, we have to look at statistics and trends.

If the view point of sexual contact between 15 - 23 is taken from a sex positive perspective, then an increase in the lack of sex indicates a negative factor in the environment. 

If the same statistics are taken from a personal point of view that individual experiences *should* be the norm, then movement of statistics and the societal environment pushing the norm toward the individual’s personal experience is viewed as positive.

TL;DR, It’s not all about you!

Comment #91: cynickal  on  06/08  at  12:30 PM

But I’m surprised to see @SallyStrange making that point, considering that just yesterday she argued that she was “made” to feel like a “a freak of a woman” when Monica Hesse wrote an article in the WaPo about how most women don’t enjoy hottt nekkid photos of men, but she (@SallyStrange) does.

I’m surprised that you continue to miss the point about that, CW - first of all, I provided the evidence you were asking for, and second of all, my point is that I am not, objectively speaking, any kind of sexual deviant or freak—but my perfectly normal sexual behavior is portrayed as such by society. Yes, society. Remember, that thing that you have forbidden anyone to speak of, because you haven’t quite realized that it’s possible to provide evidence, and evaluate said evidence, as support for statements that characterize the state of a society or culture?

You don’t seem to be interested in arguing in good faith.

Comment #92: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  12:49 PM

  His wife is insanely hot, too.  I just don’t get it.

hey now. That’s kissin’ cousins to “wives have to stay hot otherwise their husbands will have no choice but to cheat on them.”

I would phrase it as “They’ve been married less than a year; essentially they’re still on their honeymoon. How can he think of any other women?”

Comment #93: Hector B.  on  06/08  at  01:07 PM

He hid it from his wife, so that’s how you know it was cheating.

The Weiner household:

“What are you doing, honey?”

—“I’m taking a picture of my junk. This hot chick sent me a naked picture of herself, so I have to reciprocate. But don’t worry, I still have my underwear on.”

“OK, honey, have fun. I think I’m going to start the laundry.”

Comment #94: Hector B.  on  06/08  at  01:10 PM

I don’t claim any expertise on the subject of other people’s relationships at all, but the one thing I can certainly say is that things such as the length of the marriage and the hotness of the wife (or husband) don’t really seem to have much to do with why people do these things.

Comment #95: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  01:51 PM

Hector B:

Hey, it could happen…

Comment #96: BrianX  on  06/08  at  02:25 PM

Large amounts of data are characterised by a measure of center (often the mean or average) and measure of variability (typically, the standard deviation from the mean).  The normal distribution or bell curve is symmetrical and fits a lot of biological or sociological data, so let’s assume that is the “normal” we’re talking about here.

“Normal” in statistical terms means “within 3 standard deviations of the mean (average)” so basically, “normal” encompasses a whole lot of area, not just the center point.  For example, if the average age of 1st intercourse is 18 with a 1.5 year standarad deviation, that means that the normal range is 16.5 to 22.5.

Again, we’re talking about large numbers of data points from a huge number of people (say the whole population of the US).  Your ONE point doesn’t affect the whole too much, but by monitoring larger scales shifts of the entire data set (seeing if the average is larger or smaller now than in the past), we can start asking some questions about what it causing that shift, which is the point of what Amanda was addressing.  In other words, you are in included in the statistics, whether you are an early or late bloomer, but the statistics are not all about you.

Comment #97: Kaija  on  06/08  at  02:38 PM

Additionally, data points that fall outside of the “within three standard deviations of the mean” happen all the time.  They are called “outliers” and statistically speaking, they require additional investigation because they indicate that perhaps there is some other factor at play with that particular piece of information.  For example, someone who had first intercourse at 45 when then exited a religious order (like a friend of my mother’s) or a 14-year old who was abused by a family member.  Both of those would indicate something out of the most common cultural pattern. Outliers are not “bad” or “good”...they just require more explanation or addition insight.

Comment #98: Kaija  on  06/08  at  02:43 PM

I don’t define cheating by whether or not it’s hidden from the spouse.

A lot of cheating is hidden from the spouse. (A square is a rectangle)

A lot of spouses cheat without really making a big deal out of trying to hide it. (A rectangle is not always a square).

For me, cheating involves the intention of violating the primacy of the relationship. Flirting is not cheating if there is no intention of actually violating the primacy of the relationship (whether it’s because you’re on opposite coasts or because you’re not intending to follow through even if it’s the person sitting next to you).

It’s messy because it comes down to how individuals view flirting (whether it can be done without any intention of moving the interaction beyond flirting) and the boundaries of sexual primacy (ie, are you the sort of person who believes that all your spouse’s orgasms belong to you going forward, and they can’t rub one out in the shower, or looking at porn?) I mean, each person draws those lines differently, and so yeah, I can see one person deciding it’s cheating and another person deciding it’s maybe not *great* but ultimately harmless, and another person deciding that it’s no big deal and another person getting really turned on by it.

Comment #99: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/08  at  02:44 PM

#103:

I agree with 95 percent of what you said.

I guess I would refine your definition as follows. Every relationship has a set of rules attached to it with respect to sexuality. Sometimes these rules are explicitly agreed to. (“If you have sex with another woman I’ll cut your balls off!”) Sometimes these rules are implicit but well understood. Sometimes these rules are not well understood or the two parties understand them differently (which obviously creates problems when someone goes outside such “rules”).

But whatever the rules are, and they are going to be different for different couples (ranging from your example of the wife who doesn’t even want her husband to jerk off, on the one hand, to hardcore polyamorous kinky swingers on the other hand), going outside of them is cheating.

The reason this is slightly different from your definition is because some couples might even agree that it is acceptable to “violate the primacy of the relationship”. The key is there has to be agreement.

Comment #100: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  02:52 PM

PBS ran a special on the anniversary of Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In the other night. My husband and I sat down to watch it, and were repeatedly openmouthed at some of the delightfully funny and essentially tame double-entendres that simply could not be aired on national television today.

Explicit sex and profanity, (even when fully justified by the subject matter, a la True Blood), and essentially tame pablum, yes. But the unapologetic and delightfully honest way they played around with sex and sexual themes, right along side other comedy, simply couldn’t air these days.

And it’s snuck up on me. Not all that long ago, I considered Two and a Half Men pretty cutting edge on what jokes they got away with (compared to other shows, they really did), but now I realize that’s just in context - they were doing astonishing things back then. And both my husband and I remember our parents let us watch them - and we were both under 10 in religious households. Amazing.

And it wasn’t just sex, either. There was one series of brief moments where each of the (white) women came out and in various ways got a young and hot James Garner to kiss them. Then Alan Seuss came out and James Garner said “You have to be kidding.” And finally, a black female cast member came out and said, “Unfortunately, all they’ll let me do is shake your hand.” To which Garner replied “Your place or mine?” and walked off with her. Artie Johnson came on and said “Very Interesting. And right now, in Birmingham, they’re showing a test pattern.”  There’s nothing like that on TV today.

Comment #101: Lymis  on  06/08  at  02:57 PM

Dilan—I think that again, what is the “primacy” is something that all couples agree on—even hard-core swingers feel that their committed relationship has a primacy to it that can’t be violated (like there’s an emotional, loving core there that is primary and not matter how many people you’re fucking, you stay emotionally within the bounds of the relationship and don’t go telling your deepest secrets to the person who’s taking you home that night).

Comment #102: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/08  at  03:00 PM

What the hell is wrong with fucking the first person who asks?  I did exactly that.  She was a very good friend of mine and now, 36 years later, she is still a very good friend of mine.  Lovely woman.  I recall that first tempestuous night with great pleasure and I will always be happy it was with her.

I also fucked the second person who asked and anyone else I liked and who consented.  Was there something wrong with that?  We all seemed to walk away from it unscathed and generally content.  Didn’t know I was doing a bad thing.  Good thing I’m married or I’d still be committing this horrendous act of fucking anyone who asked (assuming we liked one another, but then, I don’t recall anyone I didn’t like or who didn’t like me asking, so I think that point is moot).

Comment #103: DBK  on  06/08  at  03:07 PM

@SallyStrange:  Just to be clear, I’m not referring to our prior discussion about whether one can say what society does or does not (insert verb).  That’s a different thread and topic. 

You snapped at @Jayn Newell for feeling ostracized and becoming defensive in response to Amanda’s post about what is Normal in this context.  You argued that just because Amanda points out what Normal is, she is not saying that something other than Normal is bad.  Which is ironic, because yesterday you wrote that when a different woman defined Normal in different context and it didn’t describe you, you felt ostracized and defensive.  The frosting on top is that when I suggested that defining Normal is different from placing a judgment on Not Normal, you played the victim-blaming card. 

I would suggest that you might be the one not arguing with @Jayn Newell in good faith.   

Comment #104: CW21  on  06/08  at  03:13 PM

On the “normal” discussion:

Whether this is right or wrong, as a matter of human nature, people are very wrapped up in their own choices and will often interpret ANY sort of generic / group analysis as a condemnation of their individual behavior. This is, in my experience, unavoidable in internet discussions.

I remember commenting once here on a post of Amanda’s on breastfeeding that I agreed with Hanna Rosin that the benefits of breastfeeding were probably overstated and that women who wanted to formula feed because they thought it would work better in their lives shouldn’t be pushed to breastfeed. And several commenters basically came back at me like I was personally condemning their decision to breastfeed their kids, when it was perfectly clear I wasn’t.

That’s just the way things are. People have to analyze social trends. (It’s a large part of feminism, but it’s also a large part of ANY sort of social studies as well.) And people who have personal investment in their own choices will interpret that analysis as an attack, even if it is not intended as one.

Comment #105: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  03:27 PM

@ Dilan Esper—I agree that any analysis of group behavior is not necessarily an attack on those whose behavior differs from the norm, but Amanda arguably attached an explicit judgment to the analysis—i.e., there is something wrong with the social or sexual development of people who have sex later.  If this was just the result of linguistic imprecision, fine, but it’s one thing to say that the norm is X, it’s another to day that people deviating from X is a problem—here, if it turned out that there were more 22-year-old virgins, that would be a bad thing or a symptom of a problem.  People’s defensiveness isn’t coming out of nowhere here, and attacking the “late bloomers” is not helping.  For some people, delayed sexual activity is a sign of a problem, for others, it’s a sign of something positive, for others, it’s entirely neutral.

 

Comment #106: Kit-Kat  on  06/08  at  03:51 PM

@ Dilan Esper—I agree that any analysis of group behavior is not necessarily an attack on those whose behavior differs from the norm, but Amanda arguably attached an explicit judgment to the analysis—i.e., there is something wrong with the social or sexual development of people who have sex later.

This is slicing the salami mighty thin (and I will admit this), but I think there’s a difference between saying “social trend X COULD indicate that there’s something wrong, and is therefore worth studying” and saying “social trend X is worrying because there must be something wrong with people who do X”.

I think Amanda is saying the former and people are hearing the latter.

Comment #107: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  04:03 PM

I think it’s more likely she meant the former, but said the latter.  The words “at bare minimum” kind of takes it out of ‘maybe something’s wrong here’ territory.

Comment #108: Jayn Newell  on  06/08  at  04:12 PM

Vincent, that depends on her. It’s not for you to decide what the worst part is. She’s the injured party here, not you. If she decides that the lying is worse than the cock pic, then she’s entitled to feel that way. If she decides that she really doesn’t care about the flirting and the cock pics and the fact that he didn’t tell her he was flirting, but the fact that ALL THIS ATTENTION is now focused on their family is the worst part, who the fuck are you to tell her “no, what you should *really* be upset about is the fact that he lied to you.”

Honor is a meaningless word, objectively speaking. It really has absolutely no concrete definition. You high horse needs a break. Come on down.

Comment #109: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/08  at  04:33 PM

You snapped at @Jayn Newell for feeling ostracized and becoming defensive in response to Amanda’s post about what is Normal in this context.  You argued that just because Amanda points out what Normal is, she is not saying that something other than Normal is bad.  Which is ironic, because yesterday you wrote that when a different woman defined Normal in different context and it didn’t describe you, you felt ostracized and defensive.  The frosting on top is that when I suggested that defining Normal is different from placing a judgment on Not Normal, you played the victim-blaming card.

 

Oh man, you are SO CLOSE to having a really good point. However, I think there’s an important distinction to make here: the hypothesis of normal sexual development is a hypothesis that is backed up by study and statistical analysis. The hypothesis about women’s sexuality is based on misogynist myths, and is contradicted by study and statistical analysis. In addition, stating that the normal range of first sexual contact is between [age X] and [age Y] is a much more neutral and much less damaging action than stating that women categorically do not like sex as much as men do.

I note that you did not respond to my observation that your categorical aversion to making observations about societal trends has prevented you from taking the elementary step of asking whether there’s evidence behind those observations. That’s quite a handicap. It prevented you from seeing the distinction between making a false and damaging generalization and a true and neutral generalization.

As far as victim-blaming goes, let’s recap:

Me: I’m upset about this misogynist myth, the one behind this joke that basically states that women like me don’t exist. It’s both false and damaging.
CW: If you were a stronger person, that wouldn’t bother you.

That’s textbook victim-blaming. It’s not a big deal, really, but I guess the phrase “victim-blaming” pushes a button or two for you?

Dilan Esper in #109 makes an excellent point.

Comment #110: SallyStrange  on  06/08  at  04:49 PM

@Dilan Esper: “But if we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that’s not a good thing.  I would argue that’s a bad thing, at bare minimum a symptom of major problems, either in their social lives or their sexual development.”  Pretty unequivocal to me—as opposed to: “If we’re seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins, that might not be a good thing.  It might be a bad thing.”  Amanda may have meant the latter, but that’s not what she wrote. 

Look, I don’t want to harp on this, because I think the discussion of prudery in our culture is an interesting one (and, as I said, the word vajayjay makes my skin crawl).  But let’s focus not on how lame people with boring sex lives are, and focus more on the ways that prudery works to allow the judgmental to sit in judgment while simultaneously reveling in every juicy detail of the latest “scandal,” and reduces people to their sexual organs while loudly proclaiming that sex is bad. 

 

Comment #111: Kit-Kat  on  06/08  at  05:37 PM

@SallyStrange: 

I personally agree with @Jayn Newell that there was language in Amanda’s posts that, at the very least and regardless of intent, could be fairly interpreted as not just defining Normal but also passing judgment on those outside of it.  I can certainly empathize with a person taking offense to someone’s passing statements about what not being within the Norm suggests about that person. 

With the discussion yesterday on women’s sexuality, I don’t recall anyone (be it the site author, the WaPo author, or any commenter) saying or even suggesting that getting turned on by a picture of a guy’s dick indicated that there was something wrong with any woman who is, or that it even COULD indicate that in certain situations.  Maybe you point out where that was said?

Nor did anyone ever argue or suggest that “women categorically do not like sex as much as men do.”  I wholly agree that, if someone did say that, it have been both false and damaging, but no one did. 

And as far as the victim-blaming issue, I think that is a pretty reprehensible mischaracterization both of what you wrote and what I wrote.  In any regard, the misogynistic myth you’re referring to is a humorous article from a woman who interviewed other women around DC who said, “Thanks, but I really don’t want to see you dick picture” and expressly included the caveat that yeah, some women really love junk shots.  I guess I’m not entirely sure how you’ve been victimized by that article.

Comment #112: CW21  on  06/08  at  06:54 PM

#118:

For all you know, Huma gets turned on hearing her husband regale her with tales of all these women who want him, and she gets so hot and heavy that she then has the nastiest sex imaginable with him.

Now, do I think that is LIKELY? Not particularly. But you don’t know that and I don’t know that, and that’s why the only people who get to decide whether it was “wrong” for Weiner to engage in CONSENSUAL flirting with adult women are he and his wife.

(Having said that, there are troubling indications that at least some of the encounters were not fully consensual, i.e., that he was pushing some women who just wanted to strike up a conversation with a congressman towards sexual discussion and picture exchange. That obviously raises different issues, as does lying about the whole thing to the press for a week.)

Comment #113: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  07:20 PM

“I remember commenting once here on a post of Amanda’s on breastfeeding that I agreed with Hanna Rosin that the benefits of breastfeeding were probably overstated and that women who wanted to formula feed because they thought it would work better in their lives shouldn’t be pushed to breastfeed. And several commenters basically came back at me like I was personally condemning their decision to breastfeed their kids, when it was perfectly clear I wasn’t.”

That’s a bit of a misinterpretation of what actually happened Dilan (since I was actually one of the women involved in that debate) but I guess I can’t really blame you too much for trying to reframe it in a way that is more flattering to you and your POV.

What actually happened is that Dilan came in and gave an opinion that wandered into mansplaining territory (I’m a man and know oodles about this subject, even more than you, even though I’m not a woman and have absolutely zero first hand experience about this subject.)  I and a few other women called him out for attempting to speak with such authority on the matter and Dilan turned around and told us we were all over-essentializing our own experiences.  Instead of simply acknowledging that actual women with real, actual breasts might be more enlightened than him on such a topic, which would have been the more reasonable and less insulting approach to take, Dilan insisted he still knew better than us women regardless of what we had to say on the matter that disagreed with him. 

I think what is really offending and off putting to some of the dissenters in the current debate is that Amanda made the assertion that seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins was a “bad thing” and that it likely showed evidence of symptom(s) of major social or sexual problems.  It’s incredibly disingenuous to turn around and tell anyone that falls into the 22 yo virgin category that they don’t get to be offended by such a statement or to make an argument in defense of 22 year old virgins who decided to wait to have sex for whatever reason they personally deemed to be valid.  Just as it was disingenuous in the extreme for Dilan to tell breastfeeding mothers that they basically shouldn’t get to take part in a debate about breastfeeding because the discussion wasn’t really about them, the same sort of it isn’t about you statements are equally out of line in the current debate. 

Which isn’t to say that I disagree with Amanda regarding the big picture here in the U.S. where prudery is concerned.  It’s becoming more and more of a commonplace thing in our public discourse and I also find it extremely alarming.

Comment #114: Lolagirl  on  06/08  at  07:29 PM

What actually happened is that Dilan came in and gave an opinion that wandered into mansplaining territory (I’m a man and know oodles about this subject, even more than you, even though I’m not a woman and have absolutely zero first hand experience about this subject.)  I and a few other women called him out for attempting to speak with such authority on the matter and Dilan turned around and told us we were all over-essentializing our own experiences.  Instead of simply acknowledging that actual women with real, actual breasts might be more enlightened than him on such a topic, which would have been the more reasonable and less insulting approach to take, Dilan insisted he still knew better than us women regardless of what we had to say on the matter that disagreed with him. 

Only what actually happened is:

(1) I didn’t claim I knew more about the topic because I was a man;

(2) I cited several sources and authorities for the claims I did make; and

(3) I made no claim at all about individual women’s experiences with breastfeeding—only that I thought that breastfeeding ADVOCACY had the effect of pressuring women into living up to some stereotype of “perfect motherhood” and that people needed to calm down and let women make their own choices.

Not only was none of that mansplaining, none of that had anything to do with women’s personal experiences in breastfeeding or not breastfeeding their babies. It was all about (a) the scientific evidence regarding breastfeeding and (b) the antifeminist content of some breastfeeding advocacy.

Lola, it isn’t “mansplaining” for a male to offer any opinion about the broad subject area of breastfeeding just because the issue happens to involve a part of the female body.

The fact of the matter is that I was attacked because some breastfeeding women are VERY personally invested in the “rightness” of the choices they made (which is the exact same reason Hanna Rosin, a female, was also attacked). And as I said, that is standard operating procedure on the internet whenever anything that involves anyone’s personal choices is discussed, even on a very high level of abstraction having nothing to do with the actual personal choices.

Comment #115: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  07:43 PM

And by the way:

This:

Just as it was disingenuous in the extreme for Dilan to tell breastfeeding mothers that they basically shouldn’t get to take part in a debate about breastfeeding because the discussion wasn’t really about them, the same sort of it isn’t about you statements are equally out of line in the current debate. 

Is completely outrageous and false. I have never, ever, ever, ever, ever told any breastfeeding mother any such thing and you know it.

(But it does demonstrate my point—in internet discussions, on any level of abstraction, people hear what they want to hear when their personal choices are connected with the discussion.)

Comment #116: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  07:45 PM

My take on this is that guys—and especially ADULT guys, and even more especially adult guys older than 30—should not be sending unsolicited penis pictures to women they are not having sex with and who haven’t asked for such a picture. It smacks of the flasher thing to me.

I’m a nurse, so over the course of my career, I’ve seen the genitals of many, many people. Every once in awhile, we get a pervy guy who gets off on flashing a nurse (almost always a student or very young/young looking nurse) their erection.  Now, an inadvertent erection (which happens even when one is trying to put in a catheter) is totally different and even the most inexperienced nurses pick up on that.

Seeing people’s anatomy at work is part of my job, and I don’t find it upsetting, and I’m not embarrassed by it. That’s because I expect to see it at work. However, outside of work, I really do not want to see random genitals of strangers unless I am actively seeking it out.

If it’s not a sexual situation, or it’s just a mild flirtation, then those pictures (or flashing, for that matter) are generally not appropriate, and can feel threatening. And…online, if you don’t personally know the person you’re sending it to…you are incredibly stupid to do so, because that could be anyone, including people who’d like to see you fall on your face. Or, even worse, your mom.

I don’t give a rip what anyone else chooses to do in their bedrooms as long as it’s all consenting and they don’t do it in mine unless invited to do so. Having boundaries does not equate one with being a prude.

Some segments of our population are considerably more prudish; I know sex was a more open and accepted thing when I was a teenager than it is now (gotta love those 70s).

 

Comment #117: Jodi  on  06/08  at  07:47 PM

By the way, just in case anyone’s interested, here’s the thread. Lola and Atheist a Feminist reamed me pretty good, and Kristin didn’t want to hear from me, but the rest of the commenters all seemed to think I was right or had valid points, which seems to refute the claim that I was mansplaining or making ignorant claims about breastfeeding mothers’ experiences:

http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/because_its_still_just_mommy/

Comment #118: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  08:08 PM

I’m a nurse, so over the course of my career, I’ve seen the genitals of many, many people. Every once in awhile, we get a pervy guy who gets off on flashing a nurse (almost always a student or very young/young looking nurse) their erection.

One of the things that came out in the wake of Dominique Strauss-Khan’s arrest is that there appear to be numerous men who apparently get off on exposing themselves “accidentally on purpose” to hotel maids.

Comment #119: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  08:10 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, thanks for the link to the porn study. And as far as sexting, my opinion is that it’s significantly more than flirting. It’s basically like mutually interactive porn.
If I was Huma, I think I’d be the most pissed off about the public humiliation. I wouldn’t want to be the woman whose husband’s boner was making international headlines. I don’t even understand why anybody’s angry at Weiner for lying. Anybody in that situation would lie.

Comment #120: snobographer  on  06/08  at  10:14 PM

I think what is really offending and off putting to some of the dissenters in the current debate is that Amanda made the assertion that seeing a rise in 22-year-old virgins was a “bad thing” and that it likely showed evidence of symptom(s) of major social or sexual problems.

I (hope I) can see where you’re coming from in that this characterization hurts.  I’ve read many such discussions where I felt like people were pathologizing me and my decisions, and missing the point to boot.  But I also think Amanda addressed this way back at comment 19:

But the issue here isn’t whether or not some late bloomers exist, and if they’re “wrong”.  (No, but in some cases there are issues!)  The issue here is if there is a rise is the number of later in life virgins, that could be an indicator of widespread social problems that are legitimately hurting them.

Many people will by shy, or genuinely not ready, or have been in a situation where sex wasn’t a good idea, or just not met the right person, until after the age range discussed here.  Probably a certain number of people would have those experiences no matter what.  But if we see a huge difference in the average age people start having sex, or in the number of older virgins, that means that a whole bunch of individual people would have had sex under some other paradigm, but aren’t under the current one, and that something happened to them to make that change.  Given the general atmosphere of prudery and disinformation discussed in the OP, I think it’s at least worth considering that those people were hurt by the very culture Amanda describes and which I hope we all agree is Not Good For People.

Like a few other people in this thread, I would have had sex sooner if it had all been up to me.  Maybe I just don’t get it because I still did have sex within the age range defined as “normal” in this post, but it’s hard for me to see why people are still arguing about a statement Amanda has considerably softened and clarified in the comments.  Even if all of our individual sexual experiences were totally right and we wouldn’t change a thing, don’t we care that some people might delay sex because they thought they would be shamed for it, or they were abused, or they were lied to, or decent birth control and STI protection weren’t available to them?  Those are realistic worries in the United States, as we (or I, at least) live in it today.  Worrying about those kids—who would be in one group or the other in different societies—comes from compassion, not judgment.  I felt like Amanda’s response about social problems that are hurting those kids did, too.

Comment #121: themmases  on  06/08  at  11:16 PM

By the way, the poop’s about to hit the fan on Weiner. Kirsten Powers has a pretty devastating piece up at the Daily Beast.

Comment #122: Dilan Esper  on  06/08  at  11:51 PM

What people don’t really seem to talk about, and what I wish they would, is human attachment theory and the part it plays in adult relationships. Instead, one side shouts about how having sex is always bad, and the other side shouts about how having sex is always good.

I’m tired of being told that women who have sex are dirty and nasty. I’m tired of being told that women who don’t have sex have problems. I’m tired of being told to keep my legs closed. I’m tired of being told I have to like porn. I’m tired of being told I can’t fuck anybody, and I’m tired of being told I have to fuck everybody, or tolerate my partner fucking everybody because that’s “just how men are wired.” And I’m tired of having to shield my kids from the whole screaming mess, while trying to impart some sensible values to them that will help them when they get older. But neither the left nor the right shares my value set, these days. I’m a whore to one, a prude to the other.

Comment #123: tigercrane  on  06/09  at  12:56 PM

LolaGirl @ 120:
You and I remember that thread very differently as my strongest reaction was that you (I think it was you) and a few other commenters were going on about how great and necessary breastfeeding was while at the same time denying anyone ever tried to coerce any new mother into breastfeeding.  Others of us who commented on how it just doesn’t work for eveyone and the breastfeeding advocates have, in our actual experience, been coercive were accused of not getting it, not knowing what we were talking about and over-reacting.  I know I am mixing parts of at least two threads that were at about the same time though; and both of them had several conversations going at the same time.

Comment #124: helen w. h.  on  06/09  at  02:00 PM

I’m going to make an observation and issue a request to fellow commenters.  And I’m sure I will get destroyed for it.

I believe that terms like “mansplaining” are inherently belittling and stifle legitimate debate.  It’s a term that, at its heart, is intended to dismiss and diminish another commenter’s viewpoint based solely on his gender.  It is as offensive as a man telling a woman to hush her pretty little mouth, or that her opinion isn’t valid because whatever she’s talking about is guy-stuff.

And this is not to say that I don’t get that some men actually do believe they know more than any woman on a subject because they are a man and therefore smarter.  I’m sure that asshat exists and maybe trolls this board.  But even with breastfeeding, there is no reason why a guy can’t have something to contribute to the debate just because he’s never breastfed.  A lot of women have never breastfed, but they’d never be accused of mansplaining. 

I imagine most commenters on here who happen to have dicks are making their points in good faith.  Throwing terms around like mansplaining when someone (with a dick) has a different point of view is accuses that person of having either a covert or overt sexist intent underlying his statement.  And then the commenter (who happens to have a dick) is placed on the defensive.  And then the board turns into a back-and-forth litigation of what was said, what was intended, and what was interpreted.  So now my request:  Can we, as commenters, maybe give each other the benefit of the doubt?  And when a guy makes an asinine statement, can we just call that guy out for making an asinine statement and not ascribe some malingering caveman intent behind it?

Comment #125: CW21  on  06/09  at  02:38 PM

@131: Short answer, no.

Long answer: The term Mansplaining has a specific meaning, and I think many regulars here would agree that it’s been an extremely valuable shorthand for addressing that particular type of comment. It does NOT dismiss a commenter based on gender, but rather on a very particular pattern of behavior.

Not everyone applies the term perfectly, because this is the Internet, hello.

If you are continually finding yourself accused of mansplaining, you might want to look a bit deeper into why that might be, rather than automatically letting yourself get defensive. If your intentions are, in fact, totally pure, look into your expression. I know we all think we’re genius writers and everything sounds perfect in our heads, but the Internet does not see into your heart, grasshopper.

If one person is hollering MANSPLAIN and nobody else seems to think you’re out of line, try not giving a shit about one person. If everyone is hollering MANSPLAIN and you are utterly, totally convinced that you aren’t and why is everyone so meeeeeeean, try going outside for a while. 

P.S. you aren’t “placed on the defensive,” you’re choosing to react defensively rather than thoughtfully.

 

Comment #126: Well, what?  on  06/09  at  03:01 PM

Part of mansplaining is telling women they are wrong to have the reactions that they have. Thus any attempt to deny mansplaining is in fact mansplaining. You enter a recursive loop from which you can never escape.

Here is a good non-tutorial on mansplaining.

http://scienceblogs.com/thusspakezuska/2010/01/you_may_be_a_mansplainer_if.php

(I of course can be plonkingly obvious and literal, but it is never mansplaining, right?)

Comment #127: Hector B.  on  06/09  at  03:24 PM

@Well, what?  says “P.S. you aren’t ‘placed on the defensive,’ you’re choosing to react defensively rather than thoughtfully. “

Great, a little victim-blaming thrown in for good measure, eh?  Way to live up to your own feminist ideals.

(Storms off in a sarcastic huff) 

Comment #128: CW21  on  06/09  at  03:33 PM

All right, that’s worthy of a chuckle.

Comment #129: Well, what?  on  06/09  at  04:27 PM

<blockquote>Or people who haven’t bought a new album in 20 years</blockquote.

Does anyone buy the whole album anymore?  LOL.

Comment #130: Richard Goblin  on  06/09  at  04:34 PM

The feminazis, perverts,sickos,deviants and freakshows who have had too much power and influence for so long

My and my best friends have all the power?  Who knew?

Comment #131: Richard Goblin  on  06/09  at  04:46 PM

For me, it’s not so much that I expect people to find my lack of sexual experience more interesting than someone with lots of it, it’s the assumption that my lack of sexual experience must mean that I’m a prude or otherwise weirdly conservative about sex.  Far from it, I’m adamantly pro-choice and I am bisexual and I actually have a very raunchy sense of humor.  And I enjoy reading about and discussing sex.  I might be really picky and not very adventurous with my own life, but that doesn’t mean I extend that judgment to other people.  (Just like how there are a lot of people who are very promiscuous and kinky in private who disapprove of other people having the same fun.  Like various Republican politicians.)

But I personally don’t really like the idea of pride in prudishness, because it always seems to lead down a slippery slope of slut-shaming.  Like Reese Witherspoon’s recent comments on MTV about how it used to be shameful to have a sex tape and those were the good old days and she’s going to make it cool to be a “good girl” again.  There is occasionally a tendency in “slut pride” to act like all truly liberated women have sex early and often (Jezebel does this a lot), but it’s not nearly as frequent or as intrinsic to the notion.

Comment #132: Erda  on  06/09  at  05:03 PM

And wow, Molly Jong-Fast has to be the queen of hasty generalizations.  People married later in the ‘70s than they do now?  What?  She does realize that anecdotal evidence about what was typical for the minority of people associated with the feminist and/or gay equality and/or free love movements, does not speak for the vast majority of people alive at that time?  She’s like a creationist; she has A Narrative to sell and it doesn’t matter what overwhelming evidence to the contrary you present her with, she’s sticking to it.

Comment #133: Erda  on  06/09  at  06:15 PM

Long answer: The term Mansplaining has a specific meaning, and I think many regulars here would agree that it’s been an extremely valuable shorthand for addressing that particular type of comment. It does NOT dismiss a commenter based on gender, but rather on a very particular pattern of behavior.
Not everyone applies the term perfectly, because this is the Internet, hello.
If you are continually finding yourself accused of mansplaining, you might want to look a bit deeper into why that might be, rather than automatically letting yourself get defensive. If your intentions are, in fact, totally pure, look into your expression. I know we all think we’re genius writers and everything sounds perfect in our heads, but the Internet does not see into your heart, grasshopper.
If one person is hollering MANSPLAIN and nobody else seems to think you’re out of line, try not giving a shit about one person. If everyone is hollering MANSPLAIN and you are utterly, totally convinced that you aren’t and why is everyone so meeeeeeean, try going outside for a while.
P.S. you aren’t “placed on the defensive,” you’re choosing to react defensively rather than thoughtfully.

This.

It’s also worth noting that mansplaining, despite the name, isn’t exclusive to men.  Women can ‘splain to men in situations where they are the ones with privilege, such as a White woman ‘splaining to a Black man over race issues.  As a bisexual woman I have had to deal with “heterosplaining” from straight women (for example, having my opinions on heteronormativity of romantic advice dismissed because “most people are straight,” something all LGB people are well-aware of already).  The principle of the thing is when someone without expertise/experience in a particular area assumes they know more than someone who has it.  It’s only called “mansplaining” because our society’s idea that men=rational, women=emotional means (certain) men have trouble accepting when a woman has more expertise in a particular subject than they do (whether consciously or unconsciously).

It isn’t every time a man explains something to a woman.  If the man actually does know more than a woman in a given instance, and explains it to her, it’s not mansplaining.  So when my mom, who is a Constitutional lawyer, has a Tea Party guy who hasn’t taken a civics class since high school “explain” the Constitution to her, that is mansplaining.  When she has a biologist explain genetics to her, someone with no background in the subject, that isn’t mansplaining.

The way to stop being a mansplainer is just to stop assuming that a difference in opinion is a matter of a knowledge gap in your favor.  Take time to actually listen to the other person before assuming she doesn’t know as much as you do.  Especially when you’re arguing with a woman about sexism, in which case the knowledge gap will always be in HER favor, not yours, because men, as a privileged group, can’t speak to the lived experience of being a member of the second sex.

Comment #134: Erda  on  06/09  at  06:51 PM

I think of the current prudery as the Tosh.0’ing of America.  (Watch a half hour, and you’ll know what I mean)

Comment #135: NY Expat  on  06/10  at  03:03 AM

NY Expat - Not on a dare would I watch 30 min of that crap.  IMO, making someone do so should be illegal (but I feel much the same about Jackass and America’s Funniest Home Videos, so YMMV).

Comment #136: helen w. h.  on  06/10  at  01:23 PM

Yeeeeah, I think that explanation of mansplaining takes into account a lot of false assumptions.  The example you cite of a discussion on sexism—men should hush their pretty little mouths if they have a different view than a woman—assumes that no man has ever been in a situation/work environment/college/house/apartment/family in which women were the privileged group and men were second sex.  It also assumes every woman commenting on sexism has first hand experience of it.  There are very few situations in which a woman will always have the knowledge gap be in her favor, by which I suppose you mean first hand experience.

And even without first hand experience (e.g., thank god, breastfeeding) there’s no reason why a guy will ALWAYS have less to offer to a discussion than every woman. 

As you suggested for men, maybe, just maybe *everyone* should “take time to actually listen to the other person before assuming *the other person, regardless of vagina-possessing status* doesn’t know as much as you do.”

Even if the term served as a convenient and pithy shorthand, it’s still an inherently dismissive and belittling term, and it’s a completely unnecessary weapon to use to cut a guy off at the knees.  What’s the value added compared to saying instead that the guy’s asinine, or that whatever evidence he cites is flawed, or ignoring him?

I mean, if I dismissed a woman’s opinion on ANY subject by saying “look who’s PMSing again,” I’d rightly get smacked cross the head.  Amiright?

Comment #137: CW21  on  06/10  at  01:56 PM

As you suggested for men, maybe, just maybe *everyone* should “take time to actually listen to the other person before assuming *the other person, regardless of vagina-possessing status* doesn’t know as much as you do.”

Aaaaaand here’s where you walk into a big steaming pile of fail yet again. Listen, for once, fer crissakes, because you’re at the bottom of a hole and just keep digging:

what you say is what women are TRAINED AND SHAMED into doing their whole lives because the world can’t stop reminding us that we suck at everything. In our culture, listening, assuming the best of the other person, and shutting yer damn mouth is the female IMPERATIVE.

It sounds so wild and crazy to you because you have the socially accepted option of behaving otherwise.

That you even *think* this is the same thing as dismissing a woman’s opinion based on “PMS” shows that you’ve in fact become *less* self-aware on the topic, the more you discuss it. A person who accuses you of mansplaining is dismissing your IGNORANCE and ARROGANCE, not your wang, dude.

Comment #138: Well, what?  on  06/10  at  02:43 PM

assumes that no man has ever been in a situation/work environment/college/house/apartment/family in which women were the privileged group and men were second sex.

Too bad those men didn’t have the entire rest of the world to remind them of their superiority to those crazy bitches.

It also assumes every woman commenting on sexism has first hand experience of it.

There may be people who have no firsthand experience of gravity, but I don’t tend to assume that about the person on the street.

Comment #139: junk science  on  06/10  at  03:02 PM

What’s the value added compared to saying instead that the guy’s asinine, or that whatever evidence he cites is flawed, or ignoring him?

If the he in question isn’t a total blockhead, it just might give him an indication of where his blind spots are. That way he can try harder to be less asinine, if such a thing appeals to him.

<cough cough>

Comment #140: Well, what?  on  06/10  at  03:23 PM

Part of being enlightened re: privilege and sexism and racism and all those other lovely things is learning that yes, actually, there *are* times that you need to shut yer damn mouth a minute. Yes, even you, CW.

You’re so fucking insulted and indignant that we’ve even dared to vaguely suggest that to you. But you don’t see why we would feel remotely insulted when men do it to us. Constantly. No, instead you counsel that we should be *patient*, that we should be good *listeners*, that we should give the benefit of the doubt. That we should *allow* some ignorant douchebag to tell us our business, which we know in and out and he does not, without calling him out as the sexist mansplaining douche he is. Because surely, surely he means well.

Do you begin to see why our patience wears thin??

Comment #141: Well, what?  on  06/10  at  03:29 PM

I’m not saying the two are identical, I’m saying they are similar in that they are dismissive and belittling based on gender.  A woman who has never breastfed may seem just as ignorant as any guy on the topic to a woman who has, but no one would flippantly dismiss her by saying she’s mansplaining.

When you write: “what you say is what women are TRAINED AND SHAMED into doing their whole lives because the world can’t stop reminding us that we suck at everything. In our culture, listening, assuming the best of the other person, and shutting yer damn mouth is the female IMPERATIVE.  It sounds so wild and crazy to you because you have the socially accepted option of behaving otherwise.” 

I’m just not sure I understand what you are saying.  What’s wrong with *not* assuming the worst in someone in a discussion?  Or taking to time to listen and give weight to what someone else has to say a bad thing?  I mean I was raised to do both of those things by my parents, even with a penis.  I was also raised to stand up for myself if someone tried to bully or run roughshod over me, and I’m assuming you were to. 

Even assuming what you said regarding the female imperative is absolutely valid not just on the subcultural level, but on the literal “I went to an elementary school where I was told by my teacher that as a woman my opinions were less valid and that I should sit politely in the corner and look pretty” level, I’m having trouble understanding how that changes the analysis. 

I do want to take a moment to point out the irony of you telling me to shut mah damn mouth and listen fer crissakes, in light of your second paragraph.  And I’m sure you didn’t mean it as such, but your entire post *could* be perceived as you trying to train and shame me into accepting belittling and dismissive gendered terms, used against men, that assume that they can’t contribute or add value to a discussion. 

Comment #142: CW21  on  06/10  at  03:49 PM

@Well, what?:  I’m a little thrown off by the pronoun usage in your #147 post.  Just to be clear, I’ve never been accused of mansplaining on here.  So far, though I’m sure you’ll take care of that for me shortly.  I think it was Dilan who accused of it re: breastfeeding.  I was just struck by the casual use of the language, that’s all.

You write, “You’re so fucking insulted and indignant that we’ve even dared to vaguely suggest that to you. But you don’t see why we would feel remotely insulted when men do it to us. Constantly.”

Are you referring to me, specifically, or to men in general who I am supposed to speak and account for?  I absolutely agree with you that any guy who is dismissive of a woman or tells her to shut up because she’s a woman is an asshat and there’s no excuse for that point of view.  I think I even used that exact phrase when I made that same point previously.  I just think there’s no justification for that point of view, ever, by either sex.

You also say, “That we should *allow* some ignorant douchebag to tell us our business, which we know in and out and he does not, without calling him out as the sexist mansplaining douche he is. Because surely, surely he means well.”

My problem with this point is that assumes the conclusion.  It assumes the guy doesn’t know something about a topic.  When Dilan was accused of mansplaining on breastfeeding, it was in response to having offered an informed opinion—to the extent possible without ever having had a baby clamp down on a nipple—with cites to several studies on the issue.  (Full disclosure, that is his self-description of his post.  Which, I think, was vouched for by Helen later on.)  Beating the dead horse on the point, if a woman who has never breastfed made the exact same points and cited to the exact same studies, she would not have been dismissed as mansplaining.

I do like your seemingly-serious suggestion that the term is simply a nice, gentle corrective tug at the reigns to get the guy back on the trail.  How kind and charitable of you.  As a man, I would never be able to understand actual criticisms of my point, or my experience, or whatever evidence I cite. 

 

 

Comment #143: CW21  on  06/10  at  04:20 PM

I’m not saying the two are identical, I’m saying they are similar in that they are dismissive and belittling based on gender.

Suggesting that a woman’s opinions be dismissed because she has “PMS” is a convenient way of mocking her for being female and reminding listeners that women’s opinions are not to be taken seriously, no matter what the topic might be. It doesn’t matter what the bitch is talking about; she’s a woman and that’s all you need to know.

“Mansplaining,” and its close relative, “whitesplaining,” occur specifically when a person from a privileged group assumes they know more about the experiences of a non-privileged group than actual members of that group. Like someone else pointed out, a white woman lecturing a black man on racism and assuming she knew more than he did about it would be guilty of the same breed of stupidity as a mansplainer.

I do want to take a moment to point out the irony of you telling me to shut mah damn mouth and listen fer crissakes, in light of your second paragraph.

Like you said, there’s nothing wrong with shutting your mouth and listening. It’s only harmful when some people are expected to shut up and listen all the time without receiving the same courtesy from others. Women do shut up and listen to men constantly, I assure you, which is why the rare cases when it doesn’t happen stand out to you so much. We’re as afraid as anyone of turning into the thing we’re fighting against.

Comment #144: junk science  on  06/10  at  04:24 PM

Oh for the love of merciful monkey crap.

To address your “irony”: I told you to listen. I told you there may be times when shutting yer damn mouth is the wiser and better thing. That is not the same thing as bullying you, that is informing you of the reality of the world.

OK, for another thing, women are trained to assume the best of men *in spite of solid evidence to the contrary,* and that is something I should have elucidated more particularly.

A mansplainer is not taking time to listen to women because it has never occurred to him that they have anything to tell him. He is not assuming anything about them except that they want, nay NEED, his brilliant insight into their personal experiences. Generally speaking (GENERALLY), women are not raised with the luxury of dismissing others in this way. As I said above, we are instead raised to accept and privilege even the opinions of total idiots over our own.

There are some discussions to which a man, or anyway the vast majority of men, will not be able to contribute or add value (I’m trying to be mindful of the experiences of transpersons here). Insisting upon his ability to add value to those discussions is not merely asinine, it’s a type of asininity made possible by our society’s gender constructions, which assume that men may be experts on all things at all times, including women.

It is not bullying to give a sexist behavior a name. It is not bullying to use that name when a person is behaving in that way.

Like I said above, if you are truly arguing in good faith, and truly offering something of value to a discussion, then the majority of posters are going to see that. If nobody can see it but you, you’re doing it wrong. (It strikes me that using this shorthand is not unlike the idea of sending someone to Feminism 101. We’re busy people. We don’t have time to educate every single clueless person who stumbles across the blogs where we hang. And actually, it isn’t really our job. The info is out there for the finding.)

We have seen enough mansplaining to know it when we see it (and now is where some dudes will go ahead and mansplain to me that no, I totes haven’t, and some women don’t think there’s sexism, and they had a lady boss once and blah blah fucking blah…). We don’t, actually, run around just screaming mansplain! at everyone who disagrees. If we keep saying it to you, it’s because you keep doing it.

So knock it off.

Comment #145: Well, what?  on  06/10  at  04:42 PM

Sigh. Yes, the “you” in question refers to men in general, or more specifically, men who are undie-bunched over being called mansplainers. I’m aware that you personally had some different accusations lobbed at you in the earlier thread.

Relatedly: Did you perchance read the other fella on that thread who was being a mansplainer, was called out, saw his error and copped to it? Ariel something?

Did you read that and think, “oh they just totally bullied him into saying that,” or did it strike you that he was actually perhaps wrong and had, in fact, been nudged to awareness by criticism?

Comment #146: Well, what?  on  06/10  at  04:55 PM

Rebecca Solnit on “Men Who Explain Things”

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/13/opinion/op-solnit13

Credibility is a basic survival tool. When I was very young and just beginning to get what feminism was about and why it was necessary, I had a boyfriend whose uncle was a nuclear physicist. One Christmas, he was telling—as though it were a light and amusing subject—how a neighbor’s wife in his suburban bomb-making community had come running out of her house naked in the middle of the night screaming that her husband was trying to kill her. How, I asked the physicist, did you know that he wasn’t trying to kill her? He explained, patiently, that they were respectable middle-class people. Therefore, her-husband-trying-to-kill-her was simply not a credible explanation for why she was fleeing the house yelling that her husband was trying to kill her. That she was crazy, on the other hand….

Comment #147: snobographer  on  06/10  at  07:19 PM

@153 - There is no such thing as sexism against men.

There is no such thing as racism against white people.

There is no such thing as “heterophobia.”

There is no classism against rich people.

And whatever version of the “shit rolls uphill tooooooo” whine that’s used to try to shut up people with disabilities, that is also complete and utter bullshit.

Comment #148: snobographer  on  06/10  at  07:24 PM

151, thanks.

Comment #149: bomberE  on  06/11  at  10:33 PM

CW21, 149:

When Dilan was accused of mansplaining on breastfeeding, it was in response to having offered an informed opinion—to the extent possible without ever having had a baby clamp down on a nipple

You understand, right, why that’s a contradiction in terms? No amount of reading studies entitles me—a man—to tell a woman who’s breastfed what her breastfeeding experience has been, or a woman who has unsuccessfully tried to breastfeed what she was doing wrong.

So it’s not an informed opinion. In Equalworld, a childless woman who’d offered the same opinion on the basis of the same study would be guilty of the same thing. In our world, women aren’t generally raised (and men generally are) to assume their opinions are informed. So this behavior, whatever you want to call it, is far more frequently exhibited by men than by women. That’s not equal. It’s the observation all the same.

I am not prepared to say that no one, anywhere, has ever used “mansplaining” the way men often use “PMS,” as a contentless dimissal of an opinion solely on the basis of the opiner’s apparent gender. But I don’t recall seeing that.

Comment #150: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/11  at  11:33 PM

My only concern—-only concern—-is if there is a rise in late in life virgins.  This is not something that should be waved off as automatically good because Sex Is Bad.  Most people want sex.  That there is a sudden rise in people not getting what they want—-sex—-is something that should concern us.  I would also be concerned if there was a sudden rise in people who find it hard to make friends, if making friends is what they want.

And the stories of the 35+ women “too tired for sex” should be examined too. Being a woman of a certain age, I’m afraid a lot of it has to do with feeling too ugly for sex.

Comment #151: DonnaDiva  on  06/12  at  02:28 AM

CW21, you say no one has accused you here of being a mansplainer.  Let me right that wrong right now.  Your response to me, and to various other people here, was classical mansplaining - assuming that we never considered your (TRULY) false assumption that privilege runs both ways.  No, it doesn’t.  Men have privilege over women.  So, yes, a woman will always be a better authority on the LIVED EXPERIENCE of sexism than a man.

It’s not a “false assumption,” it’s something you come to when you have the experience of being the second sex (no, men are never the second sex, there’s a reason the term was invented only to describe women) in a patriarchal society.  If you stopped to LISTEN instead of get defensive and mansplain, you would have learned that.

I only learned to be truly aware of race issues by the fact that I stopped getting defensive and started listening.  No one’s saying you HAVE to shut up, only that it would be a good idea if you want to actually improve your knowledge of this issue/stop making yourself look like a horse’s ass.

Comment #152: Erda  on  06/12  at  08:03 PM

Obviously “classical” should have been classic.  Just thought I should point that out before another mansplainer seizes on that and turns this into a semantics debate.  Since, you know, it’s easier than actually engaging with the content of my post.

Comment #153: Erda  on  06/12  at  08:05 PM

@ CW I see what you are saying, particularly in light of Dilan’s false accusation of mansplaining. I myself have been annoyed at times by people dismissing someone as mansplaining, even if they WERE mansplaining, because I wanted to see a more substantive response to their bullshit instead of a flippant dismissal.

However, it’s often a useful shorthand, and I don’t see it going anywhere.

Comment #154: artdyke  on  06/13  at  07:47 PM

@ Henry Holland You know, I got one of those limited-edition California gay marriages. We’re still going strong. I’m not going to lie and say the legitimization had no appeal. It wasn’t until we got married that my mother-in-law really took our relationship seriously. But you know what? We haven’t gone one bit closer to conforming to prudish, heteronormative ideals. We have an open relationship, are adamantly sex-positive, and are both proud sluts. We are not closeted about any of these things, despite the shit we get for it from our family. My wife is also a porn star, something that developed *after* we entered this wholesome institution.

See, the fundies were right about me; a big part of the reason I wanted to get married WAS to destroy the traditional family. Much as I revel in riding a motorcycle and lifting weights and looking damn good in a suit and tie and making the gay boys swoon and STILL managing to be a woman (oh my god!), I revel in enacting all of the anti-gay-marriage fears, in throwing monogamy to the wind, throwing lesbian orgies, and defiling their sacred institution and STILL having a fantastic, loving marriage.

And I STILL deserve to have my marriage treated equally under the law.

Comment #155: artdyke  on  06/13  at  08:05 PM
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