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Next entry: Because woah Previous entry: No, seriously, they want this to be the Republic of Gilead

All women are “fat”

Body IssuesFood

I almost feel bad giving this attention, but I’m really not in the school of “ignore wingnuts who have audiences of millions of people and they’ll just go away”, so I’m blogging it.  As noted before on this blog, Rush Limbaugh has declared holy war on Michelle Obama for what is largely an uncontroversial First Lady project of trying to promote good nutrition and exercise.  Limbaugh clearly has deep-set mommy issues, and believes his audience does as well, because for him, someone gently suggesting that you eat more fiber is tantamount to tyranny.  He literally refuses to see the difference between giving advice and forcing someone at gunpoint, though I do imagine he’s continuing to eat all the crap he wants without going to jail, so I’m not sure how he figures out that has happened if we really do have a Food Police.  Maybe he figures his wealth guards him like it guards him from doing time for drug use. 

Anyway, now he’s decided, in his desperation to tell Mommy that he’ll eat what he wants, wah, he’s gone and called Michelle Obama fat.

She is a hypocrite. Leaders are supposed to be leaders. If we’re supposed to go out and eat nothing—if we’re supposed to eat roots, and berries and tree bark and so show us how. And if it’s supposed to make us fit, if it’s supposed to make us healthier, show us how.

The problem is—and dare I say this—it doesn’t look like Michelle Obama follows her own nutritionary, dietary advice.

He then goes on to whine that she had a single meal that was kind of junky.  Of course, those of us who are actually about nutrition and exercise as lifestyle choices instead of dieting will be the first to tell you that you should allow yourself treats, because if you don’t, then what happens is you “fall off the wagon” one time, and decide you’ve failed, and then eat nothing but junk.  But it’s in Limbaugh’s interest to push this all-or-nothing mentality; he’s deep into defending the worst aspects of American culture, especially those that keep people in a state of perpetual insecurity (which helps keep his audience restless and easy to drum up into a state of resentment), and boy the binge-and-starve cycle Americans are encouraged to live in sure is that. 

The all-or-nothing mentality really amps up with Limbaugh here:

What is it - no, I’m trying to say that our First Lady does not project the image of women that you might see on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, or of a woman Alex Rodriguez might date every six months or what have you. I mean, women are under constant pressure to look lithe, and Michelle My Belle is out there saying if you eat the roots and tree bark and the berries and all this cardboard stuff you will live longer, be healthier and you won’t be obese. Okay, fine, show us.

So, basically Limbaugh is saying that women fall into two categories: underweight and obese.  And that’s it.  If you’re not a size 0, you’re fat. 

I’m not noting this to fat-bash, and in fact the opposite.  I’m with fat acceptance people on accepting that there’s a broad range of human bodies and body sizes, and that health is about more than being just stick-thin.  I do think it’s interesting that Michelle Obama was criticized by fat activists for starting this campaign as a non-fat person, which created concerns that she would come across as a thin person shaming the fat kids.  Obviously, fat activists are right—-Obama is not fat.  She’s what you’d call stately.

But this is a reminder that, in a patriarchy, the word “fat” has two meanings.  The most obvious is that it’s a word that’s applied to people who actually are fat, and this is the sense that it’s being reclaimed by fat activists, who insist it should be just a descriptor and not a loaded word.  (I agree with them.) 

But then there’s the other way the term is used, and that’s as a free-floating insult that can be applied to any woman at any point in time, regardless of her actual body fat percentage.  In a patriarchy, all women are “fat”, i.e. they take up too much space and have physical bodies that are coded as Other and therefore disgusting.*  I would argue—-though this isn’t original to me but something I’ve picked up from fat activists—-that this is part of the reason that “fat” is so stigmatized.  There’s a continuum between the “all women are fat” mentality and the “fat people are disgusting” mentality.  I’ll leave that to more thorough thinkers on this to discuss, but this here is a prime example of it.  I’ve even seen women who are world class athletes and probably have like 5% body fat called “fat”.  Anorexia has many causes that are complicated, but the dysfunction certainly latches onto this notion that any flesh at all makes one “fat”. 

I’ll point out that none of this has anything to do with Michelle Obama’s stated goals for her campaign, which are about health, and getting kids eating right and exercising young to build lifelong habits.  The framing is around obesity, and that’s controversial on the left, but the goal—-to teach health as a lifestyle choice, and to keep kids from falling into the gain-weight-diet-lose-weight-go-off-diet-gain-it-back vicious cycle—-is one I think we all agree on. 

I do think that while Obama is indifferent to the more radical politics of fat activists, we shouldn’t overlook the fact that a woman of an Amazonian build is taking a leadership role as a preventive health activist, because it does destabilize the all-or-nothing mentality around diet and weight in America, at least to a degree.  Most mainstream discourse around nutrition is about losing weight, and it takes as a given that all weight loss is good, and that there is no such thing as a person (especially a woman) who doesn’t need to lose weight or that there’s a weight loss plan that’s bad for you.  Nor is there ever much indication that you can’t diet yourself into tininess—-every woman is presented with basically the same goal, to get to a lithe shape that her genetics may not actually allow for.  That Michelle Obama is out there saying you can eat right and be healthy and still weigh more than 100 pounds isn’t radical, but it’s a difference in the mainstream media where actual eating disorders are promoted as “healthy” and yo-yo dieting is taken as the norm.

I think that Obama’s ability to move people to thinking of food outside of the binge-and-starve cycle, and to think of bodies as being healthy even if they aren’t emaciated is what threatens Limbaugh, and why he’s obsessed.  Because he needs, as noted before, his audience in an all-or-nothing, constantly destabilized mentality.

*But, but, but Amanda!  Straight men who make the rules also crave women’s bodies, and claim to think they’re beautiful, so there can’t actually be a disgust reaction, right?  Wrong.  In reality, the line between disgust and attraction is thin indeed, and if you don’t think so, consider how a side of raw meat can, depending on the context, be the grossest thing in the world (road kill, human body opened up at an autopsy) or make people’s mouths water with desire (steak), even though they functionally look the same and are the same. Women’s bodies—-secondary sex characteristics in particular—-fall into the same trap, and it’s made worse by cultural misogyny.  Most women grasp early on that extremely minor differences in adherence to social norms will render a body part that’s considered exotic/beautiful/desirable into something that’s considered disgusting.  A breast can be the pinnacle of beauty, or it can cause massive disgust reactions, depending on if you pull it out for a man or for a baby.  A vulva is considered so desirable that entire magazines are dedicated just to showing it, but if it has a stray hair or labia that aren’t the exact required size, it suddenly becomes culturally designated as disgusting and women are coached to feel so ashamed they should spend tons of money waxing and even getting surgery to “fix” it.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:57 AM • (120) Comments

*But, but, but Amanda!  Straight men who make the rules also crave women’s bodies, and claim to think they’re beautiful, so there can’t actually be a disgust reaction, right?  Wrong.  In reality, the line between disgust and attraction is thin indeed ... and it’s made worse by cultural misogyny

Very good point.

Comment #1: atheist  on  02/23  at  12:20 PM

manboobz had a post up with quotes from “men going their own way” (a separatist men’s movement) where they described women as fat!  Because they have boobs and butts!  EWWWW!

For a long time the apparent ideal shape for a woman was that of a 15-year-old boy with breasts.  Now it’s a 15-year-old boy with breasts and a butt.  Thanks Kardashians!

The bottom line, of course, is that it’s wrong to judge women’s value by their physical size and shape, so I hope the menz here can manage not to jump in with their penises’ opinions that fat girls are sexy too.

Comment #2: oldfeminist  on  02/23  at  12:44 PM

Forgot the manboobz link:  http://www.manboobz.com/2011/02/bald-women-meat-toilets-and-mgtow.html

“Having read Esther Villars book, one of the stand out sentences was that if you shave a woman’s head and remove all the make up, the only difference is a fatter body (breasts included), wider hips and her vagina. ... “

and

“how could men take anything seriously that looks like a flabby 15 y/o boy when you shorten the hair and take off the makeup.”

Comment #3: oldfeminist  on  02/23  at  12:47 PM

The bottom line, of course, is that it’s wrong to judge women’s value by their physical size and shape, so I hope the menz here can manage not to jump in with their penises’ opinions that fat girls are sexy too.

Which is why I never liked the “real women have curves” thing.  It sounds empowering, but just replicates the problem with a different physical standard.

Comment #4: Linnaeus  on  02/23  at  12:48 PM

manboobz had a post up with quotes from “men going their own way” (a separatist men’s movement)

And I’m sure we all wish them the best of luck - provided they promise not to come back…

We can say one thing for Rush though… He clearly does follow his own anti-fibre dietary advice: he’s full of shit.

Comment #5: Dunc  on  02/23  at  12:58 PM

The chance of that happening is close to zero, oldfeminist.  All threads about body image issues have men who must register their penis’s opinion.  It’s internet law.  And if you call them out for it, they are required, by law, to act butthurt.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  01:11 PM

What Dunc said.

And Amanda is the first blogger/reporter I’ve read who has taken on this issue without making a central point of her argument Limbaugh’s pulchritude. I love it when people do not state the obvious.

I’ve said it before, but how many studies have shown that children who eat balanced diets do better in school than those who haven’t eaten or who filled up on junk food? Limbaugh knows that he has to keep his audience stupid and overweight or their brains might actually start to work and they will stop listening to him.

Comment #7: serious bette  on  02/23  at  01:16 PM

Michelle Obama has a mature woman’s body. If Rush Limbaugh doesn’t find it aesthetically pleasing, that says more about Rush than it does about Michelle.

Comment #8: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  01:27 PM

I’m in a public location so is that manboobz link going to take me to something that will horrify anyone who is looking over my shoulder? And is it satire or is it for real because if its satire I’m all for hilarity and if its just crazy people saying crazy things my penis is less interested. And that’s my contribution to what random dick thinks. Possibly the thread quota has been met.

Comment #9: pharmakos  on  02/23  at  01:28 PM

Link takes you to crazy people saying crazy things with a side order of bald Natalie Portman.

Comment #10: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  01:34 PM

I’d like to lock Limbaugh in a small room with the Williams sisters and see how they deal with his womens’ image issues.

Comment #11: idiosynchronic  on  02/23  at  01:36 PM

I can see why Michelle is destabilizing - she’s not the petite little blond that everyone is supposed to think is the ideal.  She’s very tall, but doesn’t have the ashamed slouch girls who were shamed for their height have.  She has actual hips, and doesn’t dress to disguise them.  And she’s black!  She seems confident, and her husband seems to think she’s great.  The people who are trying to shame women into subservience missed out with her!
I was so proud to see her sitting with the wife of the President of France, looking just as elegant and sophisticated as the former model, representing us well.

Comment #12: gretchen  on  02/23  at  01:37 PM

Has any dewd popped up to tell us about how he assesses Michelle’s fuckability so that we can sleep peacefully tonight, with that worry assuage? I know that I for one won’t be able to rest till I’m assured of her proper place in dewd world. And real dewds would probably beat up Limbaugh because you just know he can’t take it and would probably start sweating and crying if he faced an unvetted audience.

Comment #13: ginmar  on  02/23  at  01:43 PM

The bizarre claims that Michelle Obama is fat has become a meme with the far-right; and besides the misogyny, it also has the smell of the “all black women are fat” racist stereotype.

Comment #14: JMPEsq  on  02/23  at  01:44 PM

I’d like to lock Limbaugh in a small room and leave him there until he’s forced to devour his own ass.

Seriously, how dumb does his audience have to be to not notice that just who is criticizing Michelle Obama for being overweight? Oh, never mind.

Comment #15: felagund  on  02/23  at  01:46 PM

Thanks Hector and Old Feminist for linking, that’s some wacky shit. Meat toilets sounds like some kind of damien hirst bad acid trip.

Comment #16: pharmakos  on  02/23  at  01:46 PM

That Rush Limbaugh can look at Michelle Obama and call her appearance anything other than “gorgeous” and expect to get away with it says a lot about his audience. That Rush Limbaugh can complain that Michelle Obama isn’t skinny enough and do it with a straight face is frankly hilarious. In a “we’re laughing at you, Rush, not with you” sort of way.

Straight men who make the rules also crave women’s bodies, and claim to think they’re beautiful, so there can’t actually be a disgust reaction, right?  Wrong.  In reality, the line between disgust and attraction is thin indeed,

The “craving” of women’s bodies isn’t about appreciation, it’s about control. One of the ways patriarchy controls us is by telling us how to look. The narrower that window, the more energy we have to put into squeezing through it.

Comment #17: Alyson Miers  on  02/23  at  01:50 PM

A vulva is considered so desirable that entire magazines are dedicated just to showing it, but if it has a stray hair or labia that aren’t the exact required size, it suddenly becomes culturally designated as disgusting and women are coached to feel so ashamed they should spend tons of money waxing and even getting surgery to “fix” it.

Don’t forget the entire industry built around that not-so-fresh feeling.

The larger debate aside, calling Michelle Obama fat is just dogwhistle for “OMFG there’s a black lady in the White House, and not just to clean or serve food!  This is not my America!”

Comment #18: Flora  on  02/23  at  01:52 PM

A vulva is considered so desirable that entire magazines are dedicated just to showing it, but if it has a stray hair or labia that aren’t the exact required size, it suddenly becomes culturally designated as disgusting and women are coached to feel so ashamed they should spend tons of money waxing and even getting surgery to “fix” it.

I’ll add to what Amanda and Flora provide as examples of “disgusting vagina” meme-ing: menstruation anxiety, “fishy” jokes, and the idea that older women taste “yeasty.” The same punks who crow about one vagina’s appeal are usually the same who pile on with the nasty, so the coin’s double side is made even more visible.

Comment #19: Ranylt  on  02/23  at  01:57 PM

“I’ve said it before, but how many studies have shown that children who eat balanced diets do better in school than those who haven’t eaten or who filled up on junk food? Limbaugh knows that he has to keep his audience stupid and overweight or their brains might actually start to work and they will stop listening to him.”

...because overweight people all have non-functioning brains?... well, THAT’S awesome and not at all bigoted and easily disprovable.

Comment #20: Mandolin  on  02/23  at  01:57 PM

I will never understand how anyone could take Rush Limbaugh’s thoughts and opinions about anything seriously.  Well, anything other than the relative merits of various prescription painkillers…

Comment #21: MikeEss  on  02/23  at  02:00 PM

@12
To me, that last sentence reads as Michele representing us with her appearance.  So that if she didn’t measure up to a former model, she would not be representing us well.

Comment #22: rain  on  02/23  at  02:04 PM

Which is why I never liked the “real women have curves” thing.

Totally.  Look, I know I’m a bigger person, but for the love of Dog, please do not start singing odes to my rolls.  Frankly, I find it silly and not a little demeaning.  I’d rather the phrase be “real women have brains”, as any shape/type of body is also housing a brain.

It doesn’t matter what shape/size you are, as long as you eat healthy, junk in moderation, and get a good dose of exercise.  I wish some people would see it that way.

Comment #23: SporkeyO  on  02/23  at  02:15 PM

It’s not just that Michelle doesn’t fit into the traditional roll (that men get to tell her she’s allowed to have (They freaked out just as much when Hillary Clinton decided to put her education and experience to use working for health reform)) but that she goes against everything that Agro-business has built up for the last 60 years.

She’s saying to moderate portions, add vegetables to your diet, cook things so they retain their nutritional value and (worst of all) be aware that 90+% of all food has added <strike>sugar</strike> high fructose corn syrup.

Rush-bo is just pissed that someone thinks of helping others to improve their lives rather than stepping on them to get to the top.

Comment #24: cynickal  on  02/23  at  02:24 PM

I’m not sure whats the main motivating factor behind Rush and rest of the right’s loathing for Michelle Obama. There’s sexism, racism and just the fact that she is “The Enemy”.

Hillary got the same abuse about her appearance and weight. She was mostly spared the racism…

It used to be I thought “well, they just are afraid of strong women” but that idea has been shaken by the ascendancy of Palin, Bachman et. al. But I’m still not sure that the respect they get from their male wingnut peers is genuine. Its telling that they are tend to be “hotties” and their physical attractiveness is always mentioned as a reason why they are so great.

@19 I’m reminded of wingnut blogger “Confederate Yankee” and his infamous “Play-doh and Bacon” analogy. For a group of men who above all else maintain their extreme heterosexuality, they do seem to be inordinately grossed out and terrified of the women they claim to lust after.

Comment #25: Brian Schlosser  on  02/23  at  02:26 PM

@oldfeminist #3

Holy shit! Watch where you point that. I know it’s one step removed, but jesus christ I got a load of creepy off of that.

I thank manboobz for going through that, as that’s way too much creepy for me.

Comment #26: StarStorm  on  02/23  at  02:56 PM

In a patriarchy, all women are “fat”, i.e. they take up too much space and have physical bodies that are coded as Other and therefore disgusting.

this is very interesting. i have always felt that the main points of calling any (essentially, every) woman fat are to invoke the patriarchy and remind her (1) that no matter how good she is, she’s not good enough, and (2) that women exist to please/serve the patriarchy, and thus must focus all of their efforts on striving to achieve an unachievable standard of appearance. the most disturbing aspect of this psychological warfare is that the patriarchy has largely succeeded in indoctrinating women to impose these perspectives upon themselves.

a side aspect of (1) is the male defense mechanism of calling a woman fat when she refuses his penis, a symptom of his shock at not being the decision-maker, and a post hoc attempt to reclaim that role. thus:

All threads about body image issues have men who must register their penis’s opinion.  It’s internet law.

it’s internet law precisely because body image issues derive from the fact that, in the patriarchy, a penis’s opinion is the only opinion that matters.

Comment #27: cj  on  02/23  at  02:57 PM

#25, you’re kidding yourself. Where are the women who aged out of hottieness in the conservative movement? Or else said something that Freeperville didn’t approve of?

Comment #28: ginmar  on  02/23  at  03:13 PM

I am Faticus.

Comment #29: wondering  on  02/23  at  03:39 PM

I’m not sure whats the main motivating factor behind Rush and rest of the right’s loathing for Michelle Obama. There’s sexism, racism and just the fact that she is “The Enemy”.

It’s just their ‘full court press’, ‘constant pressure constantly applied’, stoking just the sense of resentment, not any sensibility of actual injury.

(Sports, communism, and Jane Austen in one sentence—not bad.)

Talk radio is just the coal-shoveler in the engine room of the reich-wing: it’s got to keep the steam pressure up to power all the stupidity.

MO is an impressive woman, successful in her own right (hospital administrator, right?) and you know if she confronted Limbaugh he would literally pee his pants.

Comment #30: Eric_RoM  on  02/23  at  04:15 PM

it also has the smell of the “all black women are fat” racist stereotype.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt a little racism thrown in there.  Black women’s bodies have been considered a completely different type of body for a long time in our culture, and it’s hard to separate that from any comment about body shape.  And in this case, I don’t think Limbaugh was even trying to separate his racism from his critique, and it was probably intentional.

<blockquote>Seriously, how dumb does his audience have to be to not notice that just who is criticizing Michelle Obama for being overweight? Oh, never mind. </blockquote.

But women are the consumable objects, not men.  You see, men care only about a woman’s appearance, and for some reason they deserve to be constantly surrounded by beautiful women.  It’s just downright cruel to subject a penis-owner to an object that is not perfectly pleasing.  On the other hand, women have no sexual desire at all, ever.  The only thing they care about is being liked by men.  It doesn’t matter what those men look like because women only want their approval, head pats, and maybe their money.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:36 PM

OK, I’ll say it. I think Michelle Obama is attractive. I don’t understand the people who bash on her looks even in terms of the merits of the criticism.

But having gotten that out of the way, I lived through the Clinton administration, when people (usually right wingers) unfairly called Hillary Rodham Clinton fat. It’s a combination of (a) sexism (against people perceived as feminists) and (b) partisanship—no wonder it’s irresistible to right wingers.

Indeed, I actually recall hearing about Hillary’s weight a lot more than I ever heard about first lady Barbara Bush’s weight, even though Bush would be the first to tell you that she was not thin. Which ought to tell you who cares about this narrative and is driving it.

Finally, though, I think the broader take-away from all of this is that we really ought to do something about the anti-feminist government post of “first lady”. Basically, she is assigned all sorts of stereotypical “women’s work”—decorating the house, seating people at state dinners, and helping, but never overshadowing, her husband. Cherie Blair was the Prime Minster’s wife for many years in the UK—you know what she did? She worked. On her own. As a barrister.

Much as I find Michelle Obama charming and intelligent, if we never heard anything about first ladies one way or another again, that would actually be a feminist victory. (I suspect this won’t happen until we get a female President because the “first dude” will NEVER be forced to take on all of the first lady’s current responsibilities.)

Comment #32: Dilan Esper  on  02/23  at  04:36 PM

I don’t buy that Michelle Obama was eating food that’s bad for you.  She had bison shortribs with kale as a side dish.  That’s pretty standard gastropub fare, and it’s a hell of a lot better for you than most dishes (besides a salad) you can get at a restaurant.

Comment #33: keshmeshi  on  02/23  at  04:48 PM

MO is an impressive woman, successful in her own right (hospital administrator, right?) and you know if she confronted Limbaugh he would literally pee his pants.

You would think so, right? But the right wing finds her success easy to dismiss because (1) she’s a chick, who (2) only got the job because of Affirmative Action, and (3) only got promoted because of U of C’s desire to ingratiate itself with the new Senator.

Comment #34: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  04:54 PM

Dilan Esper, 

Thank you so much for giving Michelle Obama your Dudebro Stamp of Approval (TM).  It’s such a relief to know that there is at least one man out there who approves of her body and physical appearance.  Because of course if she didn’t get that DSoA from at least one guy, then her value would be completely diminished in our eyes.

Good points about the antiquated notion of a First Lady though.

Comment #35: bananacat  on  02/23  at  04:57 PM

The chance of that happening is close to zero, oldfeminist.  All threads about body image issues have men who must register their penis’s opinion. 

My penis would just like it known that the designated hitter rule is a farce and should be dropped immediately.

Comment #36: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  05:03 PM

Thank you so much for giving Michelle Obama your Dudebro Stamp of Approval (TM).  It’s such a relief to know that there is at least one man out there who approves of her body and physical appearance.  Because of course if she didn’t get that DSoA from at least one guy, then her value would be completely diminished in our eyes.

I don’t think you realize why I put that in. I think that the fact that they are doing this to a conventionally attractive woman actually makes the whole thing even more absurd. It almost has a frat-house sort of quality to it, like the drunk slobs who diss the bodies of supermodels who wouldn’t give them the time of day.

It wouldn’t make it any more appropriate or defensible if she looked different. But, in a sense, the fact that they are doing this to a conventionally attractive woman highlights the what the real agenda is here.

Comment #37: Dilan Esper  on  02/23  at  05:08 PM

Size does matter.

I can’t find the article, but Amy Poehler wrote about being pregnant as an eye-opener because she’s generally so small, and instead, people had to make room for her.  Friends in the corporate world talk about high heels not just as a pain in the foot but a height-leveler—men literally look past you and over you to each other and you can’t just jump up and go “me me me” with any dignity.

Comment #38: oldfeminist  on  02/23  at  05:09 PM

i have always felt that the main points of calling any (essentially, every) woman fat are to invoke the patriarchy and remind her (1) that no matter how good she is, she’s not good enough, and (2) that women exist to please/serve the patriarchy, and thus must focus all of their efforts on striving to achieve an unachievable standard of appearance.

I was just copypasting that exact quote of Amanda’s to Mr Kristin and saying YES THIS. If we’re not constantly and unceasingly demonstrating our commitment to apologizing for our existence—making a big show of acting like our hair’s not good enough, our skin’s not good enough, our smell’s not good enough, our body still has enough substance to block light—we’re “fat”. Because “fat” is code for “not apologetic enough about existing”.

Notice how loudmouth sassy woman characters are often the fat ones? And “fat” is the go-to-descriptor for feminists, maybe after “hairy”.

Comment #39: kristin  on  02/23  at  05:31 PM

#27, YES.  In my personal experience, “fat” is definitely a favorite insult of men who can’t win an argument against a woman with anything substantial.  The handful of times I’ve been in a confrontation with a man I didn’t know, about half have ended in “fat bitch.”  I’m about as wide as a flagpole, yet it’s exactly what they trotted out when their arguments fell flat.  Not “dumb” or “stupid” or even “hysterical”; arguments that had previously been about a parked car or trash on the lawn immediately devolved into insulting my physical appearance.  “Fat bitch” still gets the same point across without straight-up saying, “You’re a WOMAN, so you’re WRONG…AND you’re ugly,” which they’d be too embarrassed to say in public with people walking by (depressingly, “fat bitch” barely even turns heads any more).  As CJ pointed out, it’s become such a common occurrence for women to accept and internalize impossible standards that jerks are often floored when it doesn’t get under your skin.

Comment #40: Secret Agent Norman  on  02/23  at  05:37 PM

@28: Im sorry, I should have clarified: the fact that there ARE no “aged out of hottieness” powerful females in the current Tea Party Pantheon goes to show that the women who are held in high esteem are like not held in esteem because they are women, but in spite of it. I’m sure once Sarah Palin gets some wrinkles and stops being “bangable” they will have nothing more to do with her.

Which will be good, but for the wrong reasons…

Comment #41: Brian Schlosser  on  02/23  at  05:54 PM

It only took 8 comments for a guy to offer his penis’s opinion, but a solid couple dozen before butthurtness set in.  Not bad; it usually happens faster.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  06:06 PM

Tho, if you had just said what you said @37, Dilan, and not registered your penis’s opinion, it would have been great and not douchey at all.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  06:14 PM

And “fat” is the go-to-descriptor for feminists, maybe after “hairy”.

Yep.  Just the other day, an anti-choice dude was screeching that it was unfair to say they’re anti-contraception (just anti-abortion) on Twitter at me, and I pointed out Title X doesn’t fund abortion, so that’s a lie.  His rejoinder to having lost the argument was, “You look like you’ve put on a few.”

.......

This was particularly amusing to me, because I recently lost a solid amount of weight.  He probably has no idea what I look like.  It’s just the go-to insult.  I was pretty impressed by how stupid that was; most wingnuts try to put some effort into establishing “evidence” before they crow about their penis’s opinion of you.

Of course, if there was some magical physical quality I could have that makes sure only liberal, feminist dudes ever paid attention to me for the rest of my life, but repelled wingnuts, I would have embraced that ASAP as a younger, more single woman.  (And hell, now.)  The tattoos do help, but sometimes you can’t see them.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  06:21 PM

“I’m glad I’m not the only one who felt a little racism thrown in there.  Black women’s bodies have been considered a completely different type of body for a long time in our culture, and it’s hard to separate that from any comment about body shape.  And in this case, I don’t think Limbaugh was even trying to separate his racism from his critique, and it was probably intentional.”

This was also the first thing that went through my mind when I read Limbaugh’s comments about Ms. Obama.  There are still a lot of nasty notions out there in our culture that black women’s bodies are de facto fat because of their often more curvy nature.  Add in the fact that black culture generally embraces that curviness as a positive and sexy thing and you have a recipe for racist stereotyping of the most disturbing kind.

It doesn’t take long as a women growing up to notice that our culture generally embraces a figure of female perfection that basically resembles a 14 year old boy but with large boobs and long flowing (usually blonde) hair.  Any sort of additional padding renders the women fat, and of course the label of fat is the worst of all negative labels a woman can have thrown at her.  Because fat in the pejorative sense doesn’t just mean you are overweight, it’s also supposed to mean that you are stupid, slovenly, pathetic and patently undesirable.

And yeah, heaven forbid a women bare a breast for any reason other than to tittilate and attract the opposite sex.  That’s disgusting!  Because we all know that boobs are for the mens to enjoy, not for feeding a baby.

Comment #45: Lolagirl  on  02/23  at  06:33 PM

It only took 8 comments for a guy to offer his penis’s opinion, but a solid couple dozen before butthurtness set in.  Not bad; it usually happens faster.

Where’s 3letterjon?  He totally missed his cue.

Comment #46: Sour Kraut  on  02/23  at  06:35 PM

Amanda, while I can see how it appeared as if my penis was patting itself on the back, I merely wanted to point out that Rush’s penis was miswired, or shorted out, or something. If you could help me rephrase that I would appreciete it—or are observations like that beyond the pale?

Comment #47: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  06:58 PM

This was particularly amusing to me, because I recently lost a solid amount of weight.  He probably has no idea what I look like.  It’s just the go-to insult.

Probably because it has a good chance of actually rankling any random woman it’s aimed at.

I don’t recall much of this towards Jenny Shipley or Helen Clarke, and they were women who had actual power I think the closest we got were a few on the very very fringe suggesting Clarke was a lesbian.

Then again, they weren’t trying to use glamour in presentation. Christine Rankin’s looks and presentation certainly got air play - but that was more the Tall Poppy syndrome than actual misogyny, I think.

Comment #48: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/23  at  07:00 PM

What are the odds that some fattening snack foods or other—Doritos?—is more likely to advertise on Limbaugh’s station, than the local farmer’s market?

Bingo. The Apple Conglomerate, nope; Nabisco, more likely.

Comment #49: judybrowni  on  02/23  at  07:02 PM

Here’s an idea: Let’s cease and desist all discussion of how penis reactions are the proper measure of a woman’s worth.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/23  at  07:15 PM

Amanda, while I can see how it appeared as if my penis was patting itself on the back, I merely wanted to point out that Rush’s penis was miswired, or shorted out, or something. If you could help me rephrase that I would appreciete it—or are observations like that beyond the pale?
Comment #47: Hector B.  on 02/23 at 05:58 PM

You managed to miss that it doesn’t matter what she looks like.  It doesn’t matter if she turns Rush or you or any other man on or off.  It’s not that his penis is “stupid” because he finds her unattractive.

His penis’s opinion does not matter here.  Your penis’s opinion does not matter here.  It’s not because we’re afraid of penises, it’s because they are notoriously bad at making decisions about health and politics.

Comment #51: oldfeminist  on  02/23  at  07:21 PM

Friends in the corporate world talk about high heels not just as a pain in the foot but a height-leveler—men literally look past you and over you to each other and you can’t just jump up and go “me me me” with any dignity.

And this is why I completely love my heels and won’t give them up.  I’m tall already at 5’11” (and also kinda big—I have hips and an ass and breasts to go with my height), but I really, really enjoy wearing 2-3 inch heels on top of that and being at least as tall as or taller than most men.  I find that it is a real confidence booster (and highly entertaining, since most of my height is in the leg and when I’m sitting I only look about average height) to be able to literally look down on some condescending asshole who thinks I can be ignored or talked down to because I’m a woman and so can’t ever know anything more or better than he does.

Comment #52: ks  on  02/23  at  07:25 PM

Hey, since I’m an unredeemed Neanderthal today anyway, I’d like to address this issue:

Straight men who make the rules ...  Most women grasp early on that extremely minor differences in adherence to social norms will render a body part that’s considered exotic/beautiful/desirable into something that’s considered disgusting.  ...  A vulva is considered so desirable that entire magazines are dedicated just to showing it, but if it has a stray hair or labia that aren’t the exact required size, it suddenly becomes culturally designated as disgusting and women are coached to feel so ashamed they should spend tons of money waxing and even getting surgery to “fix” it. 

Now, which sex is changing the social norms? I was happy to grow up when women retained their pubic hair. (The coincidence of Playboy’s selling stock and its inclusion of ladies’ nether regions in nude photographs was characterized as “going pubic.”) But then a Great Tectonic Shift in women’s behavior caused their pubic hair first to be pruned back and then totally eliminated.

But, I recall no great summit meeting where men got together to urge full Brazilians on women. My recollection is that women originated this idea themselves, for reasons I hesitate to speculate on. To think otherwise denies women agency.

On the other hand there may be a general command to women from Patriarchy Central to “Be More Alluring,” specifying the goal without mandating a particular set of rules. And ripping off all the hair that shows they have reached puberty may simply demonstrate compliance with this Patriarchal Standard.

Comment #53: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  07:28 PM

You managed to miss that it doesn’t matter what she looks like.

It hardly matters what she looks like.

Michelle Obama has gone through puberty.
She is of reproductive age.

Comment #54: Hector B.  on  02/23  at  07:36 PM

Ohhhh dear Hector…quit digging. There is so, so, so much wrong with your analysis of porn (#53), that my palm is not big enough to facepalm sufficiently.

Comment #55: Well, what?  on  02/23  at  07:50 PM

@Hector: if the tectonic shift occurs in porn, it’s not women’s preferences being implemented.  Follow the money.

Comment #56: Punditus Maximus  on  02/23  at  08:26 PM

Yeah, Hector, we all decided it would be funsies to rip our cooch hair out by the roots, it was totally our idea.

Shut up, dude.

Comment #57: kristin  on  02/23  at  08:27 PM

Hector @ #53:

Wow. I feel like I should ask if you’ve ever actually seen any porn. Because if you had, you would know that it isn’t women deciding what should be done or how they should look.

Comment #58: Mark  on  02/23  at  09:19 PM

@39 Kristen

If we’re not constantly and unceasingly demonstrating our commitment to apologizing for our existence—making a big show of acting like our hair’s not good enough, our skin’s not good enough, our smell’s not good enough,

This really hit home a few years ago.  I’d read an eye-opening post that pointed out that, as women, we do not “owe” being beautiful to anyone.  I’d long before quit wearing makeup, and have always opted for comfortable clothing instead of fashionable, because I’d never be anything other than “average”, and that was okay.  But this post pointed out that I was “rebelling” against artificial, unfair expectations, and that being “pretty” wasn’t a tax imposed on being a woman, regardless of how some men seemed to expect it.

When I expressed my amazement and approval of this concept in my LJ, I got the filthiest anonymous (of course) comment, that suggested I should be violently sexually assaulted as punishment—all for daring to believe I didn’t have to strive to reach an unattainable standard of beauty for the pleasure of whatever man might happen to cross my path.  I was a budding new feminist, wondering if the anti-woman sentiments of some men were really as bad as the feminist blogs on my reading list claimed.  That comment made me a believer.

Comment #59: StarWatcher  on  02/23  at  09:21 PM

Echoing #24, Marion Nestle notes that “fixing obesity means eating less and eating better, and both are very, very bad for business” and elaborates here: http://www.foodpolitics.com/2011/02/why-the-white-house-is-soft-on-walmart-afterthoughts/

Comment #60: A Different Brad  on  02/23  at  09:26 PM

One of the things that jumps out at me about the criticism of Michelle Obama is that she was pregnant twice and lots of women have trouble losing the baby weight even years after the pregnancy.  There is a lot of expectation from men that the women lose the weight within a month after the pregnancy.  This is a continuation of the anti-choice worldview Amanda pointed out a few weeks ago that some men don’t want to give credit to the women for making the baby, that the baby was made by the man.  To them when they see the fat on the belly or hips, it reminds them that she indeed made the baby and it enrages them.

Limbaugh has also added himself to a long list of conservatives who call liberals out on “hypocrisy”, but they themselves should probably STFU.  Like polluters who criticize Gore for turning a light on, greedy bastards who criticize Moore for making money on his movies, or idiots who criticize Barack Obama for saying “57 states.”

Comment #61: Albert Cirrus  on  02/23  at  09:41 PM

I absolutely love Michelle and think she is the best FL in our lifetime.  She is just so cool and her better eating program is just plain common sense.  I guess that fat ass limbaugh has none of that.

One thing I haven’t seen anywhere about this meal of short ribs that Michelle had, is that they were on a ski vacation, right?  I haven’t been snow skiing in years, but I have vivid memories of having never been as famished as after working all day on those slopes.  You burn serious calories at that sport.  When I used to go skiing, we would eat huge meals at night just to replenish. 

If you are burning it, there is no problem with eating that kind of food.  Fat ass’s problem is he eats that kind of meal 3 times a day and with any luck, it will kill him sooner rather than later.

OH, that made me shrill, didn’t it?

Comment #62: abo gato  on  02/23  at  09:43 PM

One of the things that jumps out at me about the criticism of Michelle Obama is that she was pregnant twice and lots of women have trouble losing the baby weight even years after the pregnancy.

WHAT baby weight?! There’s none there. She is not by any sane measure a fat or even chubby woman.

Comment #63: kristin  on  02/23  at  10:10 PM

If Rush Limbaugh thinks Michelle Obama is fat, then I think Rush’s dick is limp because Michelle has a law degree from Harvard and he is insanely jealous of that. 

So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Rush.

Comment #64: Mezosub  on  02/23  at  10:37 PM

Calling a woman fat or old is a necessary step in discrediting her. That way, every progressive or insightful remark she makes against patriarchal bullshit can be blamed on her being bitter, jealous, angry or unhappy.

Does anyone remember the initial attempts to portray Michelle Obama as “angry”? They faded away, probably because she’s so amiable that they couldn’t fly, but I knew some kind of meme would surface eventually.

Comment #65: Veronica  on  02/23  at  10:38 PM

Amanda:

Honestly, I doubt you can make this post without getting some opinions about Michelle Obama’s looks in the mix. Indeed, I think it is part of the analysis—again, I don’t think that the American public should be engaging in any sort of first lady beauty pageant (and as I said, I really don’t think the position should even exist; my model for a first lady is Cherie Blair), but people making cracks about Michelle Obama’s looks is especially transparent. Really, I’d argue it’s assumed in your post as well (the whole point of saying that to the patriarchy, all women are fat is to say that even the ones who are not, by any objective measure, fat are treated as if they are anyway).

It seems to me that nobody’s going to be able to have an honest conversation about how women are treated and parsed based on attractiveness if we pretend that the notion of conventional attractiveness doesn’t exist. And yeah, that notion is set and enforced by the patriarchy and is deserving of feminist deconstruction. Still, without at least taking it as an assumption, you really can’t make the point you are making about Michelle Obama.

One other thing—although this is probably worth exploring at another time—is that the snark about “_____’s penis’ opinion” misses something that’s actually interesting about the issue of attractiveness. I don’t think it’s actually that reductive. Men have aesthetic opinions about women who they don’t want to fuck. Heck, hetero women have aesthetic opinions about women. That’s part of what makes it so oppressive. The judgments aren’t limited to which women the guys are asking to the school dance or approaching in the singles bar. They are constant, and they extend to people where there is no issue of sexual attraction. Men are constantly demanding that women look “fuckable”, in their workplaces, in their entertainment, in all aspects of their lives, even when they have no interest in actually pursuing a relationship with them. I think it’s precisely because it goes beyond the realm of the genitalia that it causes so much harm.

Comment #66: Dilan Esper  on  02/23  at  10:38 PM

[quoteWhich is why I never liked the “real women have curves” thing.  It sounds empowering, but just replicates the problem with a different physical standard.

And for those of us on the thin end of the spectrum, lays two body hang-ups on us, instead of the one we already have to deal with.  First I get to feel guilty over something I can’t control because it happens to be the ‘ideal’ that other women with no more control don’t have, and now I get to feel bad because my boobs aren’t big enough *headdesk*

Comment #67: Jayn Newell  on  02/23  at  11:23 PM

Largely uncontroversial First Lady project? The fact that there is any controversy at all shows just how hateful the wingnuts are and what utter bullshit the false equivalence between the left and right’s reaction regarding Bush and Obama is.

To pretend that suggesting people eat healthy and get exercise is onerous government overreach is breathtakingly stupid, and I believe they have to know it’s stupid. That’s just how badly they want to hate her. And how badly they need to believe that Obama is a totalitarian socialist who won’t rest until all the Real Americans are lining up for toilet paper in some godless hellhole.

I never followed Laura Bush’s First Lady activities all that closely, but I am certain I didn’t see a lot of phony outrage from the left over her projects, which, if I recall correctly, were fairly typical and unobjectionable do-gooder kinds of things. Kind of like encouraging people to eat better.

Comment #68: brassknucklediplomat  on  02/23  at  11:24 PM

Good lord, some one take away Esper’s thesaurus and his License to Bloviate.

Comment #69: Eric_RoM  on  02/23  at  11:39 PM

Where is Blimpbaugh getting this “roots and berries and tree bark” horseshit from? Must just be the generalized Real Man jab at any diet less carnivorous than bacon-wrapped Atkins.

I think his attacks are just yet another case of the cons’ need for everything a non-rightie does to be not only bad but The Worst Thing Evar, and since Michelle Obama is a woman, misogyny is the hammer he reaches for. Wotta dick.

Comment #70: Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist  on  02/23  at  11:53 PM

Laura Bush encouraged kids to read, which is on par with encouraging kids to eat right and exercise.

Actually, reading is way more radical because you can at least predict what healthy eating entails. You never know what ideas people will get when they can read for themselves.

Yet because it was Laura Bush, nobody thought that encouraging literacy was a scheme to subvert anything. And it wasn’t. A literate (and well-nourished, and fit) populace is something no sane person could possible argue with.

It’s not like being literate, or even well-read, requires reading the entire Western Canon, and it’s not like being well-nourished and fit requires anyone to be a 98-lb triathlete. America’s next first lady (or gent) should take on our self-sabotaging inability to deal with nuance, subtlety, moderation, or probability.

Comment #71: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/23  at  11:57 PM

To pretend that suggesting people eat healthy and get exercise is onerous government overreach is breathtakingly stupid, and I believe they have to know it’s stupid.

You may recall the wingnuts freaking out about the insidious government overreaching of Obama broadcasting a message to schoolchildren - urging them to stay in school and study.

Comment #72: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/24  at  12:51 AM

Dilan:  “It seems to me that nobody’s going to be able to have an honest conversation about how women are treated and parsed based on attractiveness if we pretend that the notion of conventional attractiveness doesn’t exist.”

We all know what the standards are and we all know who meets them.  You seem unwilling to accept that they are largely arbitrary and wholly unrelated to personal worth.

It’s not that Rush is “wrong” about Michelle Obama’s attractiveness and this proves he’s a jerk.  It’s that it’s wrong to judge someone by her attractiveness and this proves he’s a jerk.

Comment #73: oldfeminist  on  02/24  at  01:05 AM

It seems to me that nobody’s going to be able to have an honest conversation about how women are treated and parsed based on attractiveness if we pretend that the notion of conventional attractiveness doesn’t exist.

See, Dilan, this is where you tip the scale into douchetastic. Really, the only way to have an honest conversation about this is to talk about what Dilan Esper thinks is important?

Comment #74: kristin  on  02/24  at  01:27 AM

What is it - no, I’m trying to say that our First Lady does not project the image of women that you might see on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, or of a woman Alex Rodriguez might date every six months or what have you. I mean, women are under constant pressure to look lithe…

The funnest part of the whole Rush rant is the part where Rush lays out his vision of what Michelle Obama ought to want and lets us in on his idea of what ought to form the pinnacle of her ambition.  I mean, it’s not as though MO were destitute of a position in life.  She has climbed to the top of the political tree, even if she’s done it in the traditional female fashion, by means of a husband and not 100% on her own hook.  She lives in the White House.  She’s the First Lady, whether Rush likes it or not.  But, no, (according to Rush) all the lives-in-the-White-House-and-wears-stunning-designer-originals-while-meeting-foreign-dignitaries stuff ought to deteriorate into dust and ashes in MO’s rib-eating mouth because she’s never going to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated, let alone date A-rod for six whole months before she gets dumped.  Of greater bliss than immortalization on the cover of Sports Illustrated or of greater pre-eminence than a position as Alex Rodriguez’s temporary date, implies Rush, no woman ought to be able to comtemplate.  That MO can do so proves (he further implies) that she’s not only fat but greedy.

Comment #75: bekabot  on  02/24  at  01:47 AM

Healthy eating is beneficial no matter what your BMI is. The conservative attack on Michelle’s message echos their attacks on global warming—often as not it is done just because this kind of know-nothing snark pisses off liberals and has nothing to do with anything factual.

Comment #76: weirdnoise  on  02/24  at  02:18 AM

hairy

Comment #77: scratchy888  on  02/24  at  02:29 AM

It’s not just women. We’ve heard that global warming isn’t real because Al Gore is fat, and we don’t have to listen to Michael Moore because he’s fat. For that matter, Al Franken wrote a book entitled “Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot”. A rather rotund mathematician of my acquaintance had a bone to pick with another intellectual; he wasn’t sure if it was Norbert Wiener or John von Neumann, but he was certain he was fat.

That’s not to say that women don’t have it worse, of course, particularly if they’ve had children. Our culture seems to have fixed on Barbie as an ideal. I remember being intrigued by a fashion illustration in an ad in the SF Chronicle, around 1970, comparing the head size to leg length and concluding that the image could not be that of an actual human. (They actually used line drawings back then.)

We do have an obesity problem, but we had a body image even before that. Reality and the ideal are further apart than ever, and we need to work on the reality, but perhaps we ought to work on the ideal as well. Rubens, anyone?

Comment #78: bad Jim  on  02/24  at  02:56 AM

the roots and tree bark and the berries

The primitive hunter gatherer diet of the “savage”, then?
Bloody hell, the racism isn’t particularly subtle there. At least he left out the witchety grubs and boiled missionary, although he might just be saving them for his next hatespew.

Comment #79: MissPrism  on  02/24  at  03:45 AM

Well shit, of course the notion of conventional attractiveness exists.  But the point is:

ITS NOT WRONG BECAUSE SHE’S ACTUALLY HOT.  IT’S WRONG BECAUSE IT’S SEXIST AND RACIST.

OK?  It doesn’t make it suddenly more valid to discredit a woman for being fat and ugly if they are, in actuality, fat and ugly.

But, I recall no great summit meeting where men got together to urge full Brazilians on women. My recollection is that women originated this idea themselves, for reasons I hesitate to speculate on. To think otherwise denies women agency.

I like how the implication here is that because Hector didn’t attend a “how do we oppress women next?” seminar, that therefore women must have had their own seminar about how to oppress themselves!  So if I declare that I never attended the seminar either, then how did any change happen in the first place?  Maybe we imagined it?

Comment #80: Denise  on  02/24  at  04:41 AM

She has climbed to the top of the political tree, even if she’s done it in the traditional female fashion, by means of a husband and not 100% on her own hook.

She also graduated from Princeton and then got a law degree from Harvard, so I think she’s done quite a bit on her own, too.

Comment #81: Toitle  on  02/24  at  05:07 AM

This seems like the latest “nancy pelosi flies places in an airplane” in the ongoing republican effort to pretend utterly mundane shit is ScAnDaLouSsSsS for the sake of venting their weird racist sexist hateful shit.

Comment #82: Dan  on  02/24  at  08:09 AM

michelle obama ATE RIBS ONE TIME!!!! and TELLS PEOPLE THEY SHOULD EAT HEALTHIER!!!! but neither of those things are actually in conflict with each other but uhhhhhhhh… RIBS!!!! Can you believe she would just EAT them, like some kind of FOOD-EATING PERSON?!?!?!?

Comment #83: Dan  on  02/24  at  08:11 AM

Like Rusty is pretty much flipping out because a First Lady picked an utterly uncontroversial children-related cause to advocate during the length of her husband’s term of office. I mean, what?

If Laura Bush had been married to a Democratic president I can only assume Rusty would have been shitting himself over how she was hijacking her husband’s presidential authority to pursue her far loony left liberal socialist agenda of… teaching kids to read. BIG GOVERNMENT just FORCING people to PICK UP BOOKS AND OPEN THEM UP AND LOOK AT THE WORDS IN THEM, doesn’t she know that REAL Americans only need to know what they learn from AM talk radio?.

Comment #84: Dan  on  02/24  at  08:23 AM

Finally, though, I think the broader take-away from all of this is that we really ought to do something about the anti-feminist government post of “first lady”. Basically, she is assigned all sorts of stereotypical “women’s work”—decorating the house, seating people at state dinners, and helping, but never overshadowing, her husband. Cherie Blair was the Prime Minster’s wife for many years in the UK—you know what she did? She worked. On her own. As a barrister.

While working on her own, she’s Cherie Booth, QC, not Cherie Blair.  Although it was Cherie Blair, the First Lady of Downing Street, while on speaking tours (speaking as the wife of the PM, not as a barrister).  And in DC, she was introduced by a British ambassador and stayed at the British embassy.  Not what I’d consider the ideal model for a spouse of PM or President being her own person.

The First Lady has no official duties and gets no compensation, although the office comes with a staff, which would be paid.  I think the first step would be to recognize the work, make it a paid position with defined duties.  Because even if we do away with the position of First Lady, like much of stereotypical women’s work, it’s still work that has to be done by someone.  IIRC, this was done at a Canadian university a few years back; they hired a president, and also hired his wife in recognition of the hostess duties she was expected to provide.

Is it possible for a leader’s spouse to completely disassociate from the role?  I don’t know much about diplomacy and schmoozing, but I would think that never accompanying your spouse or attending events would be seen as an insult.

Comment #85: rain  on  02/24  at  11:13 AM

“She has climbed to the top of the political tree, even if she’s done it in the traditional female fashion, by means of a husband and not 100% on her own hook.” 

Nope, you are 100% wrong.  Michelle Obama had a very successful career as an attorney here in Chicago prior to the Presidential election.  Not only did she graduate from Princeton and Harvard, but she worked in the City Legal Department and for the University of Chicago Hospitals in administration for several years.  Long before her husband came onto the national scene as a potential front-runner for President, we here in Chicago’s legal community knew who Michelle Obama was because of her strong reputation as an attorney and as a role model for other woman attorneys.  Of course Barack Obama was also well known in Chicago, but his wife managed to stand on her own two feet perfectly fine and without any dependance on her husband’s growing reputation or political power for support.

Comment #86: Lolagirl  on  02/24  at  12:24 PM

Lolagirl, the point is that she’s First Lady not because of her honestly terrific credentials, but because she’s married to the man who is President.  If he had married someone who is not as educated or accomplished, that woman would be First Lady instead, and nothing Michelle did could change that fact.

Comment #87: oldfeminist  on  02/24  at  12:34 PM

I agree with Dilan Esper that one of the issues *is* the question of Michelle Obama’s beauty.  Limbaugh isn’t just attacking Michelle by arguing she’s “fat” because he hates fat—he’s attacking her as fat/ugly because his fans agree *because she’s black* and because she’s “stately” and powerful and healthy looking and strong and (to many of us) beautiful.  He is attempting to undermine her as a mother (bad example) as a figure of strength and health (fat, slobby, greedy), as a graceful and charming representative of our country.  I think the point about her having had two children is also very important—she has a grown woman’s body and she’s in a high profile, loving, mature, liberal, heterosexual marriage.  Not for the Obama’s the language of the “‘ol ball and chain” or the reality of Limbaugh (and Hefner’s) serial marriage to the mindless blonde bimbos.

The unspoken image that comes to mind when Limbaugh is thrashing around trying to accuse Michelle of being fat is “Mammy.”  The emphasis specifically on her waist, breasts, hips is totally about both class and race and popular (old) images of the fat black woman and the (once extremely current on the right side of the aisle) lazy/greedy/theiving black servant/slave.  Limbaugh comes from a very white, racist, middle western faux rural community and the last guy I remember from that community speaking on a similar topic was Earl Butz, Reagan’s Secretary of Agriculture? Remember him anyone? “All Coloreds want is loose shoes and tight pussy?”  When you listen to what Limbaugh says about Michelle and Obama there is tons of coded resentment that these people who should be servants are sitting in the master’s seat and eating the foods and having the fun that should be reserved for white people.  Its not that what they are doing is any different from what other presidents and presidents wives have done—its the uppity impudence of the whole enterprise that he’s agitated about. And he’s agitated about it because his listeners are.

aimai

Comment #88: aimai  on  02/24  at  12:39 PM

Oldfeminist, I get that.  It just concerned me that the way Bekabot set out her points completely appeared to erase the past success that Michelle Omaba achieved completely independant of her husband.  I’ve heard lots of right wing bloviaters act as though Michelle Obama is just a black barbie doll who would be a total nobody but for being fortunate enough to be the President’s wife.  It’s sexist and misogynist, a bit racist, and flat out ignorant of the facts.  Perhaps I’m a bit over sensitive to that sort of commentary because she’s something of a local hero where I happen to live because of the reasons I discussed in my post.

Comment #89: Lolagirl  on  02/24  at  01:05 PM

Lolagirl, thanks for filling us in on MO’s rep before her husband got famous.  I remember during the campaign, that she didn’t seem to want to quit her job, and I often wonder how she sees being “wife of”, when she was used to her own career. 
Ribs? That’s as much of a racist dog-whistle as watermelon.

Comment #90: gretchen  on  02/24  at  02:21 PM

aimai, you have hit the nail on the head—to a certain kind of Limbot, it’s not even possible for Michelle Obama to be beautiful because she isn’t White. 

If anyone is in doubt of this, I suggest dipping a toe into newspaper discussion forums.  The number of times she is routinely compared to various non-human apes is disturbing.  They don’t even bother using code words, they just jump right out there with it.

But I am not sure it’s directly associated with the “Mammy” stereotype any more.  The older guys probably still think this way, but Mammy is part of your family, the fat colored lady who took care of you when mommy was out playing bridge. 

Mammy doesn’t live in the ghetto, she’s not the uppity loud mouthed welfare queen or her out-of-control pregnant uppity teenage daughter who will cut you.  Michelle conjures both of these up for scared White people.  She’s independent.

I’m reminded of something Dick Gregory said:  “Down South white folks don’t care how close I get as long as I don’t get too big. Up North white folks don’t care how big I get as long as I don’t get too close.”  Michelle is both big and (virtually) close, triggering alarms up and down.

Comment #91: oldfeminist  on  02/24  at  02:45 PM

The chance of that happening is close to zero, oldfeminist.  All threads about body image issues have men who must register their penis’s opinion.  It’s internet law.  And if you call them out for it, they are required, by law, to act butthurt.

It was a sad day indeed when it was pointed out to me that the desire to oogle slightly larger women than the entertainment industry deems appropriate was unlikely to be hailed on Internet as particularly feminist.

Comment #92: witless chum  on  02/24  at  03:19 PM

@29: I am Faticus

I want this on a T-shirt so bad…

Comment #93: carovee  on  02/24  at  03:21 PM

Hector is funny.

Yeah sure, all the porn actresses decided one day they’d shave the whole thing, no matter what the producers or the consumers of porn (almost entirely male) thought. It was a scene out of the IWW, they decided to call a wildcat (hah) strike and told their bosses “I don’t care if you take a hit in sales because men just love our pussy hair, we’re not taking this anymore. They better get used to it.” Then all the dudebros reluctantly learned to love the bald pussy look. Us manly men still remember those dark days past when women rose up in their power and forced, FORCED, all of us to accept their love for their new funtime hobby, Brazilian waxing.

Comment #94: BlackBloc  on  02/24  at  03:51 PM

By the way I don’t want a cookie for not chiming in on my penis’ opinion. But in order to contribute to Michelle Obama’s initiative, you can certainly present me with a virtual carrot stick.

Comment #95: BlackBloc  on  02/24  at  03:54 PM

The waxers I know did not get consciously get their cues from porn. Have porn memes so saturated the culture? If so, I would expect Sybian sales to have skyrocketed.

Comment #96: Hector B.  on  02/24  at  04:57 PM

aimai,

I agree with you regarding the issue of black women being thought of by certain people (and society at large) as ugly/fat, and I think that was a great and essential point to bring up.

However, there is a difference between “beauty” and “fuckability.”  And while there is overlap between how these concepts play out with regards to discussion about women and the bodies we posses, unfortunately the history of how black women have been perceived and treated in our society simply illustrates that these are not the same and how important it is to keep these ideas separate in conversations like this.

Which is why I have to pile on the hate for Dilan’s dudebro approval.  Because unlike yours, his comments included his sexual feelings towards her body (“OK, I’ll say it. I think Michelle Obama is attractive.”), they were not exclusively about her beauty and how race plays into how people may view her beauty.  This is why they crossed the line, were inappropriate, and simply contribute to the problem he thinks he’s arguing against.  Again, <i>especially<i> because we are talking about black women here, who have traditionally been portrayed as BOTH ugly/fact AND fuckable/animalistic.

I mean really, the whole idea of a (white?) man expressing his approval of a black woman’s body as fuckable on a feminist forum and claiming that doing so is advancing feminist and humanist arguments is just so many levels of wrong I can barely begin to count them.

Comment #97: jennygadget  on  02/24  at  05:18 PM

I hate to play pile-on where Dilan is concerned, but I agree that his inability to divorce this discussion from appraisals of whether or not Michelle Obama is objectively attractive show his abject failure to really grasp the bigger picture.  While I’m willing to give Dilan some benefit of the doubt, ultimately I think his downfall lies in the fact that he still has a sort of male privilege tunnel vision.  He thinks he somehow has a deeper insight into how we women experience sexism and misogyny and then heads down the path to mansplaining, and even when actual women disagree with him he refuses to cede any ground or even admit that perhaps he should reconsider his own suppositions after a woman tells him he is wrong.

Comment #98: Lolagirl  on  02/24  at  05:36 PM

She has climbed to the top of the political tree, even if she’s done it in the traditional female fashion, by means of a husband and not 100% on her own hook.

The problem I have with this statement is the suggestion that there is a viable alternative to the traditional female means, a husband, for a woman to climb to the *top* of the political tree.  Let’s wait until a woman can actually get into the White House on her own hook, and see that it can be done,  before we start talking like there’s a choice.

Comment #99: rain  on  02/24  at  05:38 PM

The waxers I know did not get consciously get their cues from porn.

No, they got them from the men who watched the porn, and then made snide comments about how disgusting women who don’t wax are.

Or maybe they didn’t bother to tell you that, because you obviously don’t seem the type to listen or care.

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  02/24  at  05:40 PM

I would expect Sybian sales to have skyrocketed.

Yeah, Sybians are just as cheap as shaving cream and razors.

I mean, aside from all your other cluelessness about how beauty standards work. Why the fuck does anyone have to teach you or the other d00ds Feminism 101 on this blog?

Comment #101: Nobody in Particular  on  02/24  at  07:37 PM

BlackBloc, I won’t give you a cookie for keeping your penis quiet, but how about one for making me giggle on a bad day?

BOW DOWN TO THE BRAZILIAN, PUNY MALE!

Comment #102: kristin  on  02/24  at  08:02 PM

“BOW DOWN TO THE BRAZILIAN, PUNY MALE!”

Ha!  smile

Comment #103: Mark  on  02/24  at  08:29 PM

But, I recall no great summit meeting where men got together to urge full Brazilians on women.

You missed that?

Dude, the audio-visual presentation was AWESOME!

Comment #104: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/24  at  08:37 PM

To everyone who commented on my coments:

When Amanda posted on the douchebag who posted the alleged “tell all” about his Halloween date with Christine O’Donnell, she noted that she thought that O’Donnell’s ladybug outfit, which others had bashed on, actually looked cute in the outfit.

Now, was that a case of the penis giving its opinion? Or, maybe, just maybe, this issue is a bit more complicated than how you are portraying it?

I don’t doubt—and have never doubted—that women get the shaft on the issue of the judgments about physical appearance. But there are really are two components to that, not one—(1) that women are being judged based on their appearance in situations where nobody has a right to be judging them (i.e., basically in every single human endeavor other than beauty pageants and decisions about whether a person wants to seek a sexual relationship with her), and (2) that the judgments are applied to all women as a form of oppression, i.e., that they are not connected to any actual aesthetic reality but are instead just a general purpose put-down.

Now, the reason why Amanda mentioned that she thought O’Donnell’s Haloween outfit was cute might just have something to do with (2), might it? And maybe, just maybe, the reason I mentioned Michelle Obama being attractive has something to do with (2) as well.

Comment #105: Dilan Esper  on  02/24  at  09:27 PM

Hector—for an example of how expected brazilians are for my generation of women, remember when gawker did that stupid hit peice on that one time christine o’donnell didn’t have sex? they author made a huge deal about how she had pubes and this was deemed so disgusting by gawker taht it was one of the points they bolded and put off to the side.

Comment #106: alysia  on  02/24  at  09:32 PM

Is it possible for a leader’s spouse to completely disassociate from the role?  I don’t know much about diplomacy and schmoozing, but I would think that never accompanying your spouse or attending events would be seen as an insult.

By the way, on this point, there’s actually a very interesting, broader conversation about the feminist implications of spousal “duties” with respect to ANY powerful person. For a long time, powerful males, whether they be politicians, athletes, corporate executives, etc., have been expected to receive this sort of subordination and uncompensated service from their spouses—the position of First Lady is reflective of a longstanding tradition in that regard. At least my perception is that the husbands of powerful females do not tend to be expected to subordinate themselves in the same way (again—does anyone really think that Bill Clinton would have handled the social calendar in the Hillary White House?). Maybe I am wrong about this as a generalization, but as a preliminary answer to the above question I would say that we should NOT take for granted that this is the role of the spouse of a powerful person; it certainly seems like it is a recipe for the subordination of women.

Comment #107: Dilan Esper  on  02/24  at  09:35 PM

By the way, on another subject here, to the people arguing (implausibly) that porn and men have nothing to do with the waxing/shaving craze:

If porn and men had nothing to do with it, what DID cause it? Cultural trends don’t come out of thin air, you know. Women didn’t start wearing low rise jeans en masse a few years ago solely because of personal taste. It was a trend that was started by the fashion industry and some high profile celebrity proxies. We all didn’t decide to have Pinkberry-style $6 yogurt a couple of years ago rather than older-style vanilla and chocolate $2 yogurt because we all independently decided that it tasted better. The trend was pushed by marketers.

The commenters who are saying men and porn caused it have a coherent story: porn pushes an image of women with shaved / waxed genitals; men, who watch a lot of porn, pick up on that and get attracted to it; those men then push their wives and girlfriends to do the same things they do in porn—which, by the way, we know is something they do because we also have trends involving various sex acts shown in porn that guys are pressuring the women in their lives to do.

See that? Coherent story.

So if that DIDN’T happen, what did? This just arose out of thin air?

Comment #108: Dilan Esper  on  02/24  at  09:49 PM

I agree with you completely @107. The role of first lady is so antiquated and it helps set teh paradigm that every good man has a woman behind him where as a great woman means that somebody is not watching the kids and the household is falling apart!!!!! I actually think a good chunk of the wage gap is due to this paradigm

Comment #109: alysia  on  02/24  at  10:05 PM

Dilan, porn is a factor but that’s not to say it’s entirely a bad one. Lots of women get off on various types of porn and the notion that somehow it’s only men who get ideas from it is ridiculous, patronising and sexist. Yes, commercial trends affect how people dress and interact in a romantic sense but it’s something that’s enitrely unisexual.

As for the central issue, in anideal world it shouldn’t even be worthy of discussion. That there are men who label women as fat purely out of hatred is nothing new or surprising, sadly, but it shouldn’t be seen as a symptom of male opinion in general. Michelle Obama is trying to do promote something good and healthy for the country as a whole and the fact something so intrinsically apolitical should be used as a stick to beat her with in the most physically insulting way is an utter disgrace. It seems pointless at this point to say the Limbaugh, et al. should be ashamed of themselves but, well, they should.

Comment #110: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  02/24  at  10:49 PM

110 Dilan didn’t say all porn was bad, he said it started the waxing trend. and some women do watch porn but i think that the vast majority of porn is produced for men and consumed by men

Comment #111: alysia  on  02/24  at  11:37 PM

r u fucking kidding me?

We bring up a completely relevant nuance that Dilan completely blew past. Dilan sez: “but Amanda did it (that one time)” and acts like A) that’s an argument for anyone over the age of 5 and B) HE’S the one whose totally getting every single nuances of the conversation.

Also, I love how he argues as if we are disgreeing with the idea that it’s useful to point out that beauty judgements are made based not on fact but on a desire to demean and derail.  As if, you know, other people hadn’t come up with that very same argument in this very same thread.  And completely ignores the whole discussion of what he actually did wrong - ie, not get that “sexually desireable” is not the same thing as “pretty” and that this is pretty damn important disctinction to make when it comes to discussing how black women are perceived and treated.

Comment #112: jennygadget  on  02/25  at  12:32 AM

Sorry, really that should have been “As if, you know, Amanda hadn’t made that very same argument in initial post, and other people also continued to make that argument as well.”

Because that is essentially all his latest argument boils down to, that it’s sometimes useful to point out that the insult isn’t true.  Only, in this case the insult was not that Michelle Obama was unattractive, but that she was fat.  The untruthiness of which was already pointed out in the original post.

What Mr. Esper does not seem to fucking get at all is that the only reason that “fat” works as an insult in cases like this is not so much because “fat” = “ugly” but that “fat” = “ugly” in large part because “fat” can be used interchangebly with “woman who doesn’t know her place.”  Discussing how appealing any particular woman may be to men’s libido may be relevant to certain conversations, but when it is included in conversations like this one, it only serves to perpetuate this idea that women have a place to be put in.  It’s like arguing that no, really, she’s a madonna not a whore, when the topic is some asshole calling a woman a slut.  It’s not just that it’s not relevant, it’s that it’s still buying into the underlying patriarchal construction.  Acting as if Limbaugh’s problem is that he called a sexually desireable woman “fat” is the same as acting as if “slut” is an insult that makes sense.

Yes, Michelle Obama is beautiful.  Yes, many people think she is not simply because they are bigoted assholes.  The existence of such bigoted assholes, and the bigoted assholery of society in general are both important conversations to have.  But discussing the fact that you (not people in general, but you, Mr. Man, in particular) find her attractive (not merely aesthetically pleasing, but sexually desirable) has nothing to do with any of that.  It’s simply still part of the paradigm that says that a women’s worth is based on the opinions of men.

Comment #113: jennygadget  on  02/25  at  01:09 AM

Nope, you are 100% wrong.  Michelle Obama had a very successful career as an attorney here in Chicago prior to the Presidential election.  Not only did she graduate from Princeton and Harvard, but she worked in the City Legal Department and for the University of Chicago Hospitals in administration for several years.  Long before her husband came onto the national scene as a potential front-runner for President, we here in Chicago’s legal community knew who Michelle Obama was because of her strong reputation as an attorney and as a role model for other woman attorneys.  Of course Barack Obama was also well known in Chicago, but his wife managed to stand on her own two feet perfectly fine and without any dependance on her husband’s growing reputation or political power for support.

Sorry, Lolagirl, didn’t mean it that way.  Maybe if I had written “she has climbed to the top of the national (as opposed to local or state) political tree…” instead, things would have been clearer.  I get that MO has got a stunning municipal/local/state political reputation, but I also get that at this point it’s still true that a woman even with a stalwart municipal/local/state political reputation is going to have trouble finding her way into the White House except in the role of helpmeet to a male principal.  That was the case, exactly, with Hilary Clinton… and look at the enmity she aroused, even with Bill around as camouflage.  Another example from the opposite side of the aisle: Sarah Palin has been introduced to the public as potential White House material, and the public is in the process of rejecting her* even as I type.  Leaving aside the question of her fitness for the Presidential position and leaving aside the circumstance that her state/local reputation is a bad one and not a good one (as anyone may find who goes to the trouble of asking the Alaskans what they think of her) and leaving aside the additional circumstance that she’s never going to be put down as bad-looking by the likes of Rush Limbaugh (or by anybody else, for that matter), it remains the case that shoehorning her into office would entail a long hard slog, a long hard slog which the Republicans, whose political capital is not at an all-time high and who have grown lazy b/c their preferred rhetorical strategies (point the finger, smear, bray, muddy the waters, poison the wells, prevent people from voting, then profit from the resultant gloom and funk of the electorate) are beginning to fail them and b/c they have unlearned all the others, are unwilling to undertake.  The big wheels in the Republican machine will not see Sarah through, and the Tea Party types are amateurs by definition.  Ergo, Sarah Palin will never be President.  It’s true that the fact that she’ll never be President isn’t due solely to her gender but it’s also true that her gender is hardly a null factor.  She isn’t notably less talented that either Ron or Rand Paul, but both of them can manage to be taken seriously (and both of them can manage to take themselves seriously) to an extent that she will never achieve.  Why is that?  Once we’ve discounted all the other factors, what factor or factors is left?  If gender is not, in this case, the deciding factor, it must at least be among the deciding factors.

BTW, for what it’s worth, I think Dilan Esper is being given an undeservedly hard time on this thread…I think he started out just trying to be chivalrous, and that his intentions have been misinterpreted.  I would come to his defense with more vigor and conviction, however, did I not know how little mustard his championship of MO (“but she is hot, goddammit”) is likely to cut with the kind of people who just plain don’t like her.  If he could get their opinion of the First Lady’s looks to match more closely with his (“she’s hot”) rather than with the received opinion which Limbaugh expresses and to which they subscribe (“she’s not”) they would not like her any the better for it.  They’d only have one more reason to be pissed off.

*thank God

Comment #114: bekabot  on  02/25  at  02:20 AM

Dilan Esper @ 107:

At least my perception is that the husbands of powerful females do not tend to be expected to subordinate themselves in the same way (again—does anyone really think that Bill Clinton would have handled the social calendar in the Hillary White House?). Maybe I am wrong about this as a generalization, but as a preliminary answer to the above question I would say that we should NOT take for granted that this is the role of the spouse of a powerful person; it certainly seems like it is a recipe for the subordination of women.

I think you misunderstand my question.

Because the position is undefined (no official duties) and uncompensated, there is no requirement that the First Lady handle the social calendar. I would say that it is precisely for this reason, that there is no White House employee(s) assigned those First Lady duties, that we can take for granted that this is the role of the president’s spouse.  This is the same thing we do with child care and elder care: refuse to acknowledge that this is real work, deserving of compensation, and just assume that a female relative will step in and do it for free.  Once we start defining and compensating the work, creating day care centres and nursing homes/ assisted living facilities, the labour is less invisible and it becomes difficult to take for granted.

What I was questioning was whether we can just eliminate the First Lady position.  I’m sure the staff at the Office of the First Lady is already capable of assuming most of the functions without the First Lady as overseer, so rename the office and voila.  But I think there are going to be obligations that can’t be contracted out.  Other staff can organize functions, but will it be acceptable to have hired help stand in for a partner?  It should be acceptable, since there have been unmarried and widowed leaders, but if it’s common knowledge that a spouse exists, will it cause an incident with visiting dignitaries if spouses don’t show?  What if, whenever I had dinner parties, I told guests my husband wasn’t home, but Dave here is happy to stand in for him?  There are so many ways in which the separation between business and personal is a fiction.

There’s also the question of what wiki calls a “strong tradition against the First Lady holding outside employment while serving as White House hostess.”  I suspect that it’s tradition at least partly because of conflict of interest and influence concerns.  What if the President’s spouse was, say, an executive at BP?  I think that must be why we see First Ladies promoting causes.  Where else to direct your energies if you can’t work?  So do we allow presidential spouses to keep their jobs or are they supposed to twiddle their thumbs at home during their spouse’s tenure?

A peek into the role of and expectations on a husband of a powerful female leader, Denis Thatcher, starting on page 5:
http://www.genderforum.org/no_cache/issues/de-voted/gender-politics-with-margaret-thatcher/page/5/

Comment #115: rain  on  02/25  at  03:09 AM

<blcokquote>It should be acceptable, since there have been unmarried and widowed leaders, but if it’s common knowledge that a spouse exists, will it cause an incident with visiting dignitaries if spouses don’t show?</blockquote>

The tradition has been that someone (usually a family member) fills the role. Harriet Lane was Buchanan’s niece, Mary Taylor filled in because of her mother’s health, Sarah Yorke Jackson was Jackson’s daughter-in-law and Emily Donelson his niece, and Jefferson’s daughter Martha is considered to have had the position (since having one of other surviving daughters hanging around might have been a tad awkward for Ol’ Tommy).

Comment #116: KeithM  on  02/25  at  05:56 AM

A peek into the role of and expectations on a husband of a powerful female leader, Denis Thatcher, starting on page 5:

It might be that the spouse of a leader of either sex in a country with a free and active press is usually going to have to fade into the background by necessity. To use two example, anyone familiar with Canadian politics can tell you what a difficult time Jean-Daniel Lafond made for Michaelle Jean early on when she was Governor-General because he wouldn’t shut the hell up (or at least artfully deflect the question) about his Quebec Sovereignist leanings. And if the press back in the 1970s acted like the press today, Margaret Trudeau’s antics would have been on the screen 24-7: even if Trudeau wasn’t as pure as the driven snow himself, he at least tried to keep the philandering somewhat discrete until the divorce.

Comment #117: KeithM  on  02/25  at  06:36 AM

“She is a hypocrite. Leaders are supposed to be leaders. If we’re supposed to go out and eat nothing—if we’re supposed to eat roots, and berries and tree bark and so show us how. And if it’s supposed to make us fit, if it’s supposed to make us healthier, show us how. The problem is—and dare I say this—it doesn’t look like Michelle Obama follows her own nutritionary, dietary advice.”

I’m appalled at this statement. I have no idea when the last time it was that Mr. Limbaugh looked at our First Lady, but she is the poster woman of fitness in America.  It’s amazing the things people will say to get back at the opposition.

Comment #118: Bob Terrell  on  02/25  at  07:38 AM

Interestingly, two days after Amanda makes the observation about the pervasiveness of the “gross vag” syndrome among a certain stripe of dood, looks what a Slate reviewer picks up on in a new release, the Farrelly Brothers’ Hall Pass:

A major ongoing gag in the movie—in fact, it provides the closing line—has to do with a sexual practice Fred calls “fake chow,” in which (forgive me, Mom) a man pretends to go down on a woman while actually just using his fingers and making loud smacking sounds with his mouth. Practicability aside (would anyone not on roofies fall for this?) the fake-chow joke raises the genuinely confounding question: Why? If Fred and Rick’s entire goal in life is the pursuit of pussy, why don’t they enjoy it when they get it? If vaginas are that offputting, shouldn’t the heroes experience their relatively sexless marriages as a relief? The possible roles a movie like Hall Pass offers to women are almost psychotically narrow and self-contradictory: Either we’re dull domestic harridans or enticing yet fatally hideous Medusas. If the Farrellys want to make movies that explore the American man-boy’s simultaneous love and fear of women—a theme that, if treated well, could be fascinating—I hope they’ll eventually put their mouths where their money is.

Full review here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2286403/ fascinating—I hope they’ll eventually put their mouths where their money is.

Comment #119: Ranylt  on  02/25  at  12:10 PM

KeithM @ 116:
Those examples are of bachelors, widowers, and where the wife is ill, and yes, people are understanding in those situations.  But would they be if the wife was available, but simply chose not to be First Lady?  Using my dinner party example, I don’t think anyone would question my husband’s absence if I was single, or he was dead or ill, but if he was never there even though he could be?  That would be received differently, I think.

Comment #120: rain  on  02/25  at  02:09 PM

I think this discussion is sort of veering off track with dissecting the role of first spouse.  Limbaugh’s criticism of Michelle Obama is still at its core about the way our culture uses gender roles to keep women in their place and how in turn it tries to silence them when they disregard those expectations. 

Michelle Obama is attempting to use her position of prominence to forward the cause of healthy eating and nutrition.  Rush decided that she has stepped out of her place as piece of ass/arm candy attached to the President’s hip and, using the manner in which our society has determined is often the best way to remind a woman that she needs to fall back into line, leveled an insult at her related to her appearance. 

I still disagree with Dilan et al that Michelle Obama’s objective appearance really has any real relevance to this discussion.  Let’s just say for the sake of discussion that we the insult was directed at a women who does not meet conventional standards of attractiveness or beauty (Eleanor Roosevelt is probably quite famous in part because she was considered to be utterly unattractive despite the fact that she was also by most accounts extemely intelligent.)  The bottom line is that our society thinks nothing of letting men arbitrarily classify women as beautiful or attractive, and I think the point also needs to be made the the greater a women’s intellect and her refusal to defer to a man’s opinion on a matter the more likely it is that any man she pisses off with these qualities will decide that insulting her appearance will be the best available means to shut her up.  That is what Rush is trying to do with Michelle Obama, and the blatant misogyny and sexism behind that is undeniable.

Comment #121: Lolagirl  on  02/25  at  04:11 PM

“By the way, on this point, there’s actually a very interesting, broader conversation about the feminist implications of spousal “duties” with respect to ANY powerful person. For a long time, powerful males, whether they be politicians, athletes, corporate executives, etc., have been expected to receive this sort of subordination and uncompensated service from their spouses—the position of First Lady is reflective of a longstanding tradition in that regard.”

The Episcopal church I attended in my youth had a priest whose wife was uninterested in playing hostess, reportedly preferring to drive around in a sports car.  The discussion surrounding it was fierce, and it was widely accepted that this “stopped” his career, that he would have become Bishop or more had she been more amenable to those duties.  It’s not just in politics, though I guess it would be more accurate to say that politics is not just in politics.

Comment #122: oldfeminist  on  02/25  at  04:15 PM

Lolagirl, why not veer away?  The main discussion has pretty much run its course.  The point’s been made, and articulated well by several people; all that’s left is restating it six ways from Sunday in a futile attempt to convince the unconvincable.  I mean just look at her!  She’s the “poster woman of fitness in America”!

Anyway, Michelle Obama taking up the healthy eating cause is well within the parameters of keeping women in their place:

Over the course of the 20th century it became increasingly common for first ladies to select specific causes to promote, usually ones that are not politically divisive. It is common for the first lady to hire a staff to support these activities. Lady Bird Johnson pioneered environmental protection and beautification; Pat Nixon encouraged volunteerism and traveled extensively abroad; Betty Ford supported women’s’ rights; Rosalynn Carter aided those with mental disabilities; Nancy Reagan founded the Just Say No drug awareness campaign; Barbara Bush promoted literacy; Hillary Rodham Clinton sought to reform the healthcare system in the U.S.; and Laura Bush supported women’s’ rights groups and encouraged childhood literacy.[2] Michelle Obama has become known for spearheading legislation on child nutrition.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Lady_of_the_United_States

How is this any different from the philanthropic endeavors of wealthy society ladies?  Once it was no longer enough to just plan parties and be a fashion trendsetter, gotta find something to keep the little ladies busy and give them purpose.  I’m not saying they’re not doing good work.  I am saying that MO taking up a cause is not stepping out of a woman’s place.

Comment #123: rain  on  02/26  at  01:17 AM
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