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Next entry: Carve up your lawn and make space for yourself Previous entry: It wasn’t sex-blogging that ruined the economy, but something close to it

Amazingly, Fox News Is Wrong

John Derbyshire credulously relates an anecdote to us from Fox News:

Well, there is an urgent need for firefighters in the West to battle about two dozen major wildfires. The Denver channel dot-com [?] reports that many of the new recruits are Hispanics who speak only Spanish, and in Oregon that means that some of the supervisors who speak only English are being laid off or demoted, because in Oregon a crew boss is required to be able to speak the language of the firefighters, even if it’s only one worker on a twenty-person crew.

The state says the rule is necessary for safety reasons. So why not require the workers to speak English? The state has no clear answer on that.

Oh, no!  This is terrible!  Our forests will burn in the giant tamale-pit of political correctness! 

Except, you know, not.

I Googled Oregon’s firefighter requirements for speaking English and retrieved this little nugget.  Here is the state’s “unclear answer”:

English is the language of wildland firefighting.  It is the national standard.  It is spoken in briefings and on two-way radios, and is the language of operating plans, reports and other documents.

Hispanic and Native American contract crews have operated in the west with bilingual leadership since the 1960s.

The number of Hispanic crews in the Northwest has increased markedly in recent years. A count of Spanish surnames on crew rosters suggests that about 85 percent of current contract firefighters are of Hispanic descent. This rough estimate doesn’t indicate how many crew members speak English.

There is no contract requirement that supervisors on contract crews speak any language other than English.

It’s almost like…no, should I say it?  Will Ann Althouse get mad?  Sigh, I must.

It’s almost like nobody spreading this idiotic rumor did even basic research

I am evil. As are facts. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 01:03 PM • (49) Comments

“I am evil. As are facts.”

...at least you don’t have breasts, otherwise you’d really be in for an earful from the soon-to-be-married Miss ‘2-Buck Chuck’ Althouse…

Comment #1: MikeEss  on  03/24  at  01:18 PM

I am evil. As are facts.

Next time my house is burning down because a bunch of wacko illegal immigrant fire fighters are too busy smoking ganja and having a siesta to put it out, I hope you realize what you’ve done, you bastard.

Comment #2: Zifnab  on  03/24  at  01:19 PM

Part of the smear is the assumption that Hispanics are too stupid, or perhaps to0 lazy to learn English.  And since working for a government agency isn’t very high on an illegal immigrant’s List Of Things To Do In America, people like Derbyshire are really saying that US-born Hispanics are too dumb and/or lazy to learn English.

And of course Derbyshire and those like him have no conception of the numbers of Hispanics currently living in the American West whose families have been in this part of the world for up to five centuries now - and that’s only counting the European side of their heritage.  I think they managed to make the switch over to English or at least bilingualism a long time ago.

Comment #3: Stephen Suh  on  03/24  at  01:20 PM

And frankly, even if it were true, so what? I don’t want anyone to lose their jobs (including the apparently-imaginary immigrants), but I’m not comfortable making someone who’s doing one of the most dangerous jobs in the world try to come up with the phrase for “Fucking run, there’s fire right behind you” in their second language.

It’s like in Firefox, when Clint Eastwood has to think in Russian in order to control the secret, thought-controlled jet. When the missiles are incoming, what happens? He starts thinking in English, that’s what, and it almost kills him.

Why does John Derbyshire want Clint Eastwood to die in a Russian experimental jet?

Comment #4: Auguste  on  03/24  at  01:27 PM

Ah yes, those troublesome “facts” which interfere so greatly with one’s rock-solid Weltanschauung.  It seems that the doctrine of the Big Lie is alive and well.  Let’s not let piddly litte things like reality intrude on our perceptions, shall we?

Comment #5: tannenburg  on  03/24  at  01:27 PM

PS - Auguste wins the “tangential yet essential reference” award for this thread.

“You…must…think…in…RUSSIAN!”

One of the classic cheesy ‘80s Cold-War-Hysteria movies.

Comment #6: tannenburg  on  03/24  at  01:29 PM

Of course, I can imagine that a complete lack of interest in learning a language widely spoken by many of one’s associates might go along with a pattern of other supervisory behavior that would lead to firing or demotion…

Comment #7: paul  on  03/24  at  01:29 PM

Fox has finally reverted to just simply making shit up and not even pretending to have facts to back it up. I mean all the time, instead of just 3/4 of the time like before.

Comment #8: RacyT  on  03/24  at  01:34 PM

I think they managed to make the switch over to English or at least bilingualism a long time ago.

They could be sleeper cell Reconquista agents of chaos, sent to undermine the nation’s fire prevention programs in a plot to cripple the West with a string of terrorist-instigated wildfires that will then be blamed on Global Warming in a grand conspiracy concocted by the evil mastermind who has been plotting to seize power in America for the last 20 years - Al Gore!

Comment #9: Zifnab  on  03/24  at  01:36 PM

Living in SoCal with our pervasive Spanish/Mexican/Hispanic/Latino influence (let alone all the other influences), one gets so used to being in a multilingual/multi-cultural world, most of us don’t even notice it.

But I wouldn’t expect a British expatriot to understand that the western half of America (especially the coast) is quite different from the eastern half (especially the coast)...

”...people like Derbyshire are really saying that US-born Hispanics are too dumb and/or lazy to learn English.”

Which is kind of funny considering how hard many of them have had to work to eek out a modest living in The Land Of Opportunity.

Besides, I know a pretty high percentage of Hispanics born in the US who don’t know Spanish much better than I do.  Not to mention that for some ignorant people (I’m looking at you Pervyshire), knowing another language besides English must mean you don’t know English at all, or in any case makes somebody bilingual suspect because they don’t fit societal “norms”.

That pervert needs to shut the hell up about things he knows nothing about and go back to obsessing over teenage girls…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  03/24  at  01:40 PM

They could be sleeper cell Reconquista agents of chaos,

Well, of course they are.  But they’ve learned English so they can become firefighters in Oregon.  Or something.

Comment #11: Stephen Suh  on  03/24  at  01:41 PM

Zifnab, you left out the waves of Armadillos infected with leprosy that are poised to penetrate deeply into America’s soft, white, underbelly and help bring back Aztlán...

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  03/24  at  01:45 PM

poised to penetrate deeply into America’s soft, white, underbelly

Heh. I watched Slither last night. This makes me laugh.

Comment #13: Auguste  on  03/24  at  01:48 PM

Fact and reality have a liberal bias.

To live the dream, you have to make shit up.

Comment #14: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/24  at  01:54 PM

Fox News just makes shit up out of thin air????

No, not Fox News!!!

You mean that Vice-President Biden didn’t actually say last week that the fundamentals of the economy were strong, as Fox News tried to claim?

Say it ain’t so!!!!

Comment #15: DTG in STL  on  03/24  at  02:02 PM

Why does everyone consider English to be the perfect, sacred language anyway?  Spanish is much easier to learn as a first language and as a second language.  Just because something has been done a certain way for a few hundred years doesn’t mean that that’s the best way to do it.  I think it would be great if everyone in the country were bilingual.  Learning a second languages helps kids do better in many academic areas, including the blessed sacred English.  And I think that any industry would favor bilingual employees over less monolingual ones, not just firefighting.

Comment #16: bananacat  on  03/24  at  02:04 PM

I only know one group of people that even come close to American right-wingers with this obession with “Speak English!” bs, and it’s Quebecois separatists (ours are “Speak French!” but that’s just cosmetic changes). And at least they have a point… before the 70s you could barely get service in French in Montreal, and getting a decent job to this day still often means learning English rather than being forced to go bilingual (ergo, anglophones don’t need to learn French, but we do need to learn English), except for government work. Whereas Americans, well… let’s just say that they’ve got the big end of the stick with regard to language.

For instance, I’ve started playing online videogames again (God knows I’m a masochist). Speaking even one word of French on Left 4 Dead is enough to send any American player into a frenzy, especially if it’s three of us on one team speaking French on an AllTalk server (where the other team can hear voice talk) in order to be able to coordinate our team without the other team being able to know everything we’re saying.

Comment #17: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  02:11 PM

We’re thinking of making “French faggots” our team name, given that that’s the moniker so many American L4D players have used to refer to us already, but my girlfriend thinks “French whores” would be better, since that’s how they referred to HER after hearing her speak.

But yeah, racism and sexism in videogames? We must be imagining things, and we’re too thin-skinned!

Comment #18: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  02:14 PM

Speaking even one word of French on Left 4 Dead is enough to send any American player into a frenzy, especially if it’s three of us on one team speaking French on an AllTalk server (where the other team can hear voice talk) in order to be able to coordinate our team without the other team being able to know everything we’re saying.

I want to be a fly on the wall for that so hard. ^^ I’m imagining a lot of young male mouth-frothing…

Speaking even a little bit of another language does nothing but help you (even in gaming!) I took Spanish in high school and had a fun time one night translating everything one of my WoW party members said to the rest of the group (who only spoke English.) ...mostly it was translating cries of “ayuda!” back to the Spanish-speaking guy though, cause he was a higher level and we kept needing help. :p

Comment #19: Bagelsan  on  03/24  at  02:39 PM

Surely you jest, BlackBloc.

Comment #20: kaninchen  on  03/24  at  02:42 PM

Zifnab and MikeEss, where do the Reverse Vampires fit into all this?

Comment #21: Karalora  on  03/24  at  02:44 PM

Besides, I know a pretty high percentage of Hispanics born in the US who don’t know Spanish much better than I do.

I had a good friend who had to take remedial Spanish while she was in graduate school so she’d be able to help out her Spanish-speaking patients.

Her last name?  Hernandez.  Born here, raised here, never really needed more than the most basic Spanish even living in an immigrant community.

Comment #22: Mnemosyne  on  03/24  at  02:45 PM

”...where do the Reverse Vampires fit into all this?”

I never thought about that.

My god!  Is there no limit to the cunning of those MexiPuertoHispanicLatinos seeking to reclaim America and impose FascistoCommunoCatholicism?...

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  03/24  at  02:53 PM

Sadly, kaninchen, BlackBloc does not jest. Not at all. Shit like that is one of the many, many reasons that I don’t play online games that are set up to be adversarial. I don’t even PvP in World of Warcraft.

Comment #24: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  03/24  at  03:00 PM

I wish Derbyshire would go rush a gunman or something.

Comment #25: Bitter Scribe  on  03/24  at  03:08 PM

okay, why is noone mentioning in any of this that the only reason this is even an issue is because the people who are usually called to fight the forest fires - the national guard - are all in iraq right now?

as an oregonian worried about forest fires, that’s a much bigger concern to me than what language is being spoken where and by whom.  the shortage of person-power to throw at the fires because we have to deal with bush’s mess in the middle east is a much bigger deal.  AFAIC and all that.

Comment #26: trishka  on  03/24  at  03:12 PM

But I wouldn’t expect a British expatriot to understand that the western half of America (especially the coast) is quite different from the eastern half (especially the coast)…

Everything I really needed to know about American regional variety, I learned from David Lee Roth videos…

Comment #27: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/24  at  03:15 PM

Fox: Total Scum.  They pissed all over Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in a week where we’d lost eight killed. 
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/607186

Total.  Scum.

Join the group “Greg Gutfeld Can Rot in Hell”, please.

Comment #28: seeker6079  on  03/24  at  03:20 PM

Facebrook group “Greg Gutfeld Can Rot in Hell”:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=72147477362

Comment #29: seeker6079  on  03/24  at  03:23 PM

kaninchen: By “you jest”, I assume you mean “surely you must not have been so dumb as to start playing online games with *people* again”? wink (There’s a reason why I played City of Heroes solo.)

I found a Stream group that plays co-op only and are all friendly, then my gf learning of the existence of such groups found a group of Quebec players, and we ended up playing with them except some prefer Versus and… well, yeah. That’s how it ended up. It’s funny because all the douchebags are on the same side, so unless we end up on an AllTalk server if they want to annoy us they have to take their hands off the controls and type. It’s less funny because I assume since we play random people, sometimes at least one decent human being is on the other side and has to live with the knowledge that the people on his team are douchebags.

Comment #30: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  03:36 PM

Will Ann Althouse get mad?

Although Ann Althouse is neither mad nor half-mad, her ex-husband was mad.  So there’s that.

Comment #31: Jake Squid  on  03/24  at  03:39 PM

They could be sleeper cell Reconquista agents of chaos, sent to undermine the nation’s fire prevention programs in a plot to cripple the West…

Is draining the Ogallala Aquifier, and drying up the Colorado River, part of the plot? Cos whoever thought <u>that</u> up is an eeeevilllll geeeeniussss.

Comment #32: ThresherK  on  03/24  at  03:43 PM

even if fox wasn’t making shit up, i still wouldn’t want an english only language requirement on my firefighters. trishka is right. if there’s a fire, i’m wanting anyone who’s qualified to fight it.

Comment #33: cedarcrane  on  03/24  at  03:45 PM

You know, firefighting didn’t used to be a profession in the remote areas of Oregon.  When fire threatened, everyone’s dad and any and all road building and construction equipment and firefighting equipment got put to work.

I could have told you the rest of the story - I saw this trickle down the leg of Faux Noose and said BULLSHIT.  That’s because Oregon has a strong civil service culture and I know it!  It isn’t like Alabama or something. 

I probably went to elementary school with the Dads and Moms of some of these hispanic and Cayuse firefighters.  I never found their english proficiency to be lacking then.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  03/24  at  03:48 PM

“You…must…think…in…RUSSIAN!”

I didn’t know they had fire crews of Old Believers ... but they all live near Woodburn, so, I guess it makes sense.

Comment #35: Ms Kate  on  03/24  at  03:50 PM

Facts aren’t evil.  They are, however, stupid things.

Comment #36: Audie  on  03/24  at  05:37 PM

Zifnab, you left out the waves of Armadillos infected with leprosy that are poised to penetrate deeply into America’s soft, white, underbelly and help bring back Aztlán…

Lulz.

That’s because Oregon has a strong civil service culture and I know it!  It isn’t like Alabama or something.

Don’t be too hateful of Alabama.  I’ve got a friend or two from the state and once you get passed the back breaking third world poverty brought on by a combination of good ole boy politics and northern business exploitation of southern cheap labor, you discover that (give or take a shit ton of racism) they’ve got a similar sense of civic duty.

It’s sad in states like that, where you can see what should have been a healthy, noble culture absolutely crippled by greed and stupidity.

Comment #37: Zifnab  on  03/24  at  05:40 PM

getting a decent job to this day still often means learning English rather than being forced to go bilingual (ergo, anglophones don’t need to learn French, but we do need to learn English), except for government work.

Really?  I’ve been in Montreal for almost five years now, and the consensus among the English-speakers I know is that it’s damned difficult to get a job outside of call centers if you don’t speak French.  Of course, we’re all current/recent undergrads, so job offerings are going to be slim anyway, but it’s been my experience that employment almost always requires French.

Comment #38: Zombie, Lord Tennyson  on  03/24  at  05:45 PM

they’ve got a similar sense of civic duty.

I’m sure they do ... but that isn’t the same as a Civil Service culture.  A Civil Service culture means that people who work for the public are hired, retained, and released according to strict rules that protect both the taxpayer and the worker. My dad had to bust up a road crew in rural south east Oregon and reassign members to new places because the workers were too closely related (they were all cousins to varying degrees).  When he had to fire a druggy from one of his crews, he had to document every problem and every warning given, etc. 

I think that is relevant here, now that smokejumpers tend to be civil service rather than ad hoc.

Comment #39: Ms Kate  on  03/24  at  05:55 PM

Really? OK, then, I will amend this to speak only of my own experience:

In Montreal, to get a decent technology/engineering job, it is only necessary to learn English, not be bilingual. And you WILL talk English pretty much the entire workday. And to get any sort of decent job outside of that field, you should at minimum be bilingual (my gf has a hard time even finding minimum wage retail jobs as a French-only speaker).

Comment #40: BlackBloc  on  03/24  at  06:00 PM

I have 3 Hispanic coworkers. One speaks very little Spanish, not at all natively, and has to ask the fully bilingual one for phrases. One is, as I say, fully bilingual. She’s obviously a US native, but who has spoken Spanish as well since childhood. I envy her fluency. The third speaks some English, but with difficulty. I try to choose easy words in speaking with her ever since I noticed that the bilingual woman translates things for her when they are together.
We all work together very well. But I want to learn Spanish so I don’t feel like the stupid American (Je comprends le Francais, un peu.)
I wonder how much of the hostility to bilinguals comes from feelings of inferiority?

Comment #41: Samantha Vimes  on  03/24  at  07:26 PM

“Of course, I can imagine that a complete lack of interest in learning a language widely spoken by many of one’s associates might go along with a pattern of other supervisory behavior that would lead to firing or demotion…”

You’d need more than a vague interest in learning a language that you’d be expected to be able to communicate in under emergency situations to really make it useful, though. 

The real question is where, in this hypothetical situation where there are so! many! firefighters who don’t speak English fluently, are all the people capable of acting as supervisors who speak Spanish fluently?  Are we supposed to assume that these Spanish-speakers descended like a swarm of locusts from the heavens into areas where the previous Hispanic population was so low that there are no Spanish-speaking firefighters at all who could be trained to supervise?  And that there are none among the new arrivals’ ranks capable of being trained as supervisors?  Oh, and that there were otherwise so many supervisors who spoke only English that there was suddenly no need for them, and they got fired.

Comment #42: preying mantis  on  03/24  at  08:26 PM

Yes, preying mantis, didn’t you realize there are Spanish-only speakers invading our borders that have incredible training in firefighting, but only to entry-level firefighting positions?  For reals! 

Once they get to the point to where they should be promoted *zapf* they forget all the Spanish they ever knew.  Supervisory firefighting ability takes over the same area of the brain that the Spanish language does in a native speaker, so…well…it’s nearly impossible to find a supervisor who can speak Spanish, so they don’t even bother hiring Hispanics for the position or promoting them from within.

You think the racists who made up this shit even thought about how the lack of Spanish-speaking supervisors, should there actually be so many entry-level, Spanish-only-speaking workers, increases the racism of the assertion?

My husband is half-Mexican.  The cousins who married Mexicans all have children who speak Spanish.  The cousins who married gringa/os all have green-eyed kids who don’t.  My niece got into a magnet school that is a World Language School—she will be taught several classes in Spanish. 

I think this is super cool.  She’s already fluently bilingual, but being a preschooler, she can’t read or write in Spanish.  This way, she will.

I can easily see these assholes having a fit about a public school teaching kids in Spanish, without realizing that these kids are already bilingual and speaking Spanish to them during the day helps maintain that language. 

I’m sure they wouldn’t have problems with the Francophone versions of the World Language Schools.

My kids?  Different magnet school.  They’re being taught Mandarin.

Comment #43: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/24  at  08:53 PM

“You think the racists who made up this shit even thought about how the lack of Spanish-speaking supervisors, should there actually be so many entry-level, Spanish-only-speaking workers, increases the racism of the assertion?”

I don’t know if it increases it so much as throws it into sharper relief.  It’s pretty much a given that if you’re all but talking about the Great Brown Menace with a straight face, you have a hard time imagining “Hispanic” and “capable of and qualified for supervisory positions” applying to the same person.  I mean, I don’t know that it’s necessarily possible to get more racist than thinking about a group as if they were a Biblical plague.

Comment #44: preying mantis  on  03/24  at  09:16 PM

catgirl is right, Spanish is easier to learn, and native speakers forgive you when you can’t get your verb tenses right.  It also gives you a jumping off point for understanding Italian and a rudimentary grasp of French and Portugese.  Why are Americans too lazy to learn Spanish?

Comment #45: Godless Heathen  on  03/24  at  09:23 PM

I belatedly realized that I should have studied Spanish rather than French in high school when I was a history major at Sonoma State and was taking a senior seminar called “Encounters in the Pacific.” We launched the course by studying the voyages of Captain Cook in the late 1700s—both his own accounts and later critical analyses of same, and since we were making a big fat deal of first contact between Europeans and peoples native to the Pacific region, I realized that actually that happened centuries before Cook—with Magellan actually. This led me to write a paper on the Phillipines as the oldest locus of “encounter,” as we so postmodernly called it.

And by then I fully realized that the Spanish had run a freaking world empire literally spanning the globe for over three hundred years, closer to four hundred in places. And for that matter that I lived in a state whose common law was based on Spanish law (which is why in California, marriage legally entitles both parties to half the resources of their spouse—or as Xander put it in Buffy, speaking to Anya “no, when we’re married I’ll only make waffles for me—but under California law half of them will be yours…”) and where the Thomas maps still show the boundaries of the Mexican land grants. The road I lived on at the time being named after one of them…

Anyway Spanish is vital for huge swathes of modern history.

Not to mention, as they said in “Grumpy Old Men,” navigating the roads in Southern California.

When we passed one of those stupid “English Only!” propositions in the late 1980s, one of my professors put up a cartoon showing long frustrated lines at a fast food joint—“as Californians struggle to come up with the English word for ‘taco’...”

Comment #46: Mark Foxwell  on  03/24  at  10:16 PM

These people must have no critical thinking skills at all.  If it were true that the firefighters themselves were single-language Spanish speakers, then it would follow that not only the supervisors would have to be fired for not being able to communicate with them, but the pilots air-lifting water and fire-retardant materials, the Forest Service employees in the fire towers, whoever is coordinating the ground crews, and, well, you get the idea.  Pretty much EVERY SINGLE PERSON involved in fighting a fire would have to be fired to not speaking Spanish since everyone has to be able to communicate with everyone else in a timely manner.

I mean, you would have to be levels of stupid to not be able to see the bullshit in this.  But then, nobody claimed that conservatives were smart…

Comment #47: speedbudget  on  03/25  at  09:38 AM

Maybe somebody should remind Dirtyshite that the first whites to set foot on the Oregon Coast were ....

SPANIARDS!

We are talking 1500s here - shipwrecked galleons, explorers, etc.  Centuries before Astor, Lewis and Clark et al arrived.

Comment #48: Ms Kate  on  03/25  at  08:51 PM
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