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Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “Hoping Without Much Hope” Edition Previous entry: The problem, she is complex

And there it is, the “tree hugger” crapbasket

I knew it was just a matter of time before this nonsense was trotted out.

Last week, Obama administration officials admitted that the Deepwater Horizon blowout is the worst oil disaster in American history, exceeding the Exxon Valdez spill, as they estimated that the gusher had spewed between 15 and 40 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico. Around the same time, however, Rep. Don Young (R-AK) declared that the oil pumping into the Gulf is “not an environmental disaster”:

  Young said: “This is not an environmental disaster, and I will say that again and again because it is a national phenomena. Oil has seeped into this ocean for centuries, will continue to do it. During World War II there was over 10 million barrels of oil spilt from ships, and no natural catastrophe. … We will lose some birds, we will lose some fixed sealife, but overall it will recover.”

The reason I suspected it was just a matter of time is that this is one of Rush Limbaugh’s favorite truisms, that environmentalists are full of shit because they know that, given enough time, the planet will right itself.  It’ll outlive us, even!  It’s one of the right wing’s all-time favorite ways to co-opt progressive language—-accusations that we’re victimizing and condescending by suggesting that policies aimed at preserving or encouraging good things are a good idea.  In this case, the “victim” of liberal condescension is the planet itself.  By not wanting people to spew pollution all over it, destroy ecosystems, or heat it up to the point where large parts of it become unlivable, we’re apparently condescending to the planet, insulting its ability to recover from the injuries conservatives gallantly want to give it.

As arguments go, it’s pretty stupid, though it’s hard to say if it reaches the level of “the free market is socialism if it doesn’t break for me!” But while the surface argument is asinine, this argument is actually more clever than it might initially seem.  Don’t think about the surface argument—-think about the assumption bundled inside it.  Think about whose interests are quietly left out when a conservative argues with a liberal about the planet as a living entity that will recover after we’re all gone.  Oh yeah, the people who rely on the ecosystem.

By trotting out this argument, what Limbaugh and his parrots are saying is this, “Those environmentalists are sure goofy!  The only reason they care about the planet is because they have some sort of weird affection for squawking birds and dirt.  They probably sleep in trees and commune with the goddess.  But hey, let’s play along and tell them that their cute little obsession with nature—-which has nothing to do with real life—-is plain adorable.  But that they don’t need to worry about their worship object, since it’ll be here long after we’re gone.  Think long term, dirt worshippers!”

This is what’s also underlying their arguments about how volcanoes emit CO2 and oil leaks all on its own.  They’re trying to get their audience to believe that environmentalists aren’t concerned about practical issues, but that we just have an irrational hatred of any human activity that influences the planet.  So if volcanoes—-part of our worship object—-do it, it can’t be wrong, right? 

But while there may be a few goober heads that fit the stereotype they’re trotting out, the reality is that environmentalists aren’t actually working from an arbitrary moral system, where everything our god the planet does is right and everything humans do is wrong.  For one thing, a lot of us aren’t fundamentalist Christians, and so we don’t buy the argument that humans are somehow separate from nature in the first place.  We’re probably the first to compare human beings to volcanoes and hurricanes—-of nature, but able to wreak incredible amounts of death and destruction in no time flat. 

It’s the death and destruction we’re worried about more than some esoteric conception of the Earth as a living entity.  If you actually listen to environmentalists, you’ll see that they’re not only concerned about pragmatic destruction, but the reason they worry so much about it is that we have to live on this planet, and we need a clean environment to do that.  A lot of us have no doubt that the planet will eventually recover long after we’re gone—-but that’s the eventuality we’re working on staving off.  We don’t want humanity to be long gone, but if you fuck up our planet badly enough, it’s entirely possible that it will be one day. 

That everything will even out on its own the Gulf of Mexico decades or centuries or whatever from now is all good and well, but that’s not much use to the people whose livelihood depends on the flora and fauna that exists there now and is in very real danger of not being there in the future.  In general, the conservative enthusiasm for discounting our symbiotic relationship with nature alarms me.  Where do they think food comes from, if not the ground?  What the hell do they think we breathe, if not the air?  And as a gusher of oil fills the Gulf of Mexico and conservatives run around implying that concerns about water pollution stem strictly from tree-hugging planet worship, I have to ask—-what do they think we’re going to have to drink, if not the water? (Yes, I get that we don’t drink sea water, but the larger point is that water pollution is a problem because DUH, we need water to live, both in terms of drinking and the way that the oceans that cover most of our planet contribute to the ecosystem we need to survive.)  Do they fucking even eat shrimp? 

These aren’t idle questions.  Whenever I hear some wingnut going off on dippy environmentalists, I’m forced to conclude that they think that food is pulled out of the vacuum of space, since they’ve discounted the water, air, and land as sources of human sustenance worth preserving.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:57 AM • (103) Comments

What always amuses me about this is that the only other place where you will find discussions starting from the assumption that capitalists live on a planet completely different from the one where their money comes from is in the goofiest caricature corners of marxism-for-children. Supporters of markets and private property have spent more than a century arguing that capitalists do real work, add value, and live in the same communities as regular workers, but people like Limbaugh and Beck simply haven’t been paying attention.

Comment #1: paul  on  06/03  at  10:33 AM

So far my favorite wingnut blamecast has been Cal Thomas’ column claiming that the spill is environmentalists’ fault because it was the bunny-huggers that forced the oil companies to drill so far out in the first place. 

“President Lincoln never would have died if he hadn’t stuck his head in front of that bullet!”

Comment #2: ummeli  on  06/03  at  11:09 AM

Scary thing is, I think some these guys really figure that it doesn’t matter how we screw the environment because Jesus is gonna come down and take care of it all. I think their first reason for saying is a knee-jerk “liberals like it therefore it must be bad” thing, but they feel comfortable with it because the rapture concept is there as a back-up.

Comment #3: Phoebe Fay  on  06/03  at  11:20 AM

I think that a lot of the right-wingers are desperately attempting to prevent themselves from peeing themselves with joy. This oil spill, esp. when you combine it with an upcoming hurricane season that is supposed to be pretty serious, is some End Times Shit.

They must be excited that the Rapture’s right around the corner!

Of course, the rest of us who expect we’ll have to live with this aren’t quite so excited.

Comment #4: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  11:43 AM

Wow, so this spill has already unleashed more oil in a small area than was spilled over the entire ocean during the many years of the second WW…and that’s supposed to comfort us.  Huh.

Whenever I hear some wingnut going off on dippy environmentalists, I conclude it’s just a version of Galt-ness.  Either he thinks he’s going to be Raptured away when the planet is used up, since God supplied all his faithful would ever need, or he thinks he’s rich enough to buy his way onto a life raft, and fuck all y’all who can’t, since riches are only distributed to the deserving.

The planet doesn’t give a shit what we do.  The planet is going to be just fine for the next 4-5 billion years until the sun starts to use up its fuel and turns into a red giant and eats it.

Whether or not the planet can support human beings in the style to which they’d like to be accustomed in the numbers they breed to?  That’s the real question that requires practical responses.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/03  at  11:46 AM

I may be persona-non-grata because of my stupid previous comments on another thread but…

I have to admit at some level I get a little glee at the idea that the part of the country that is most conservative and thus typically most pro-business/anti-environmentalist is getting a little “karmic” comeuppance. It’s a vile shame that nature has to pay for their sins as it were, but at least if it’s going to happen to a part of the country at all, there’s some appropriate irony in who it’s happening to.

That said, I would gladly give up that satisfaction at such irony (in spades) to end the disaster and/or not have had it happen in the first place. Still it’s fun to watch a group of people who often were on the other side of things here, squirm at the results of their own policies. Granted, again, there are plenty of the eco-friendly also suffering their way, plus of course, billions and billions of various flora/fauna that clearly do not deserve to suffer for other’s stupidity.

Comment #6: scathew  on  06/03  at  11:55 AM

I don’t that’s true in Limbaugh’s case, Phoebe.  When I’ve heard him say it, he actually couched it in old Earth theory—-the Earth was here long before us, it’ll be here long after.  His evangelical fans don’t care, because he makes sure to tell them they’re Real Americans.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  12:08 PM

scathew, I might be more inclined to agree if I saw any regret at all.  I just see excuse-mongering based in real indifference to the fact that much the Gulf’s marshlands are probably going to wash away.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/03  at  12:11 PM

I am sympathetic to arguments from old-school conservatism that one ought not fix what ain’t too broke.  Just fucking with stuff because it’s not completely perfect is often a bad idea, and there’s a reasonable critique of some flavors of liberalism that they leap for intervention without considering negative side effects.  This variety of conservatism also understands that doing irrevocable things like driving a species to extinction is bad:  it fails the basic test of not messing with things without a compelling reason.  Similarly setting aside large chunks of land (“God’s creation”) to be left undeveloped is a prudent course of action, both because it preserves beauty and because it husbands resources against a potential future emergency.

This species of conservatism is almost extinct in the wild.  Personal responsibility has become limited liability.  Prudence is folly.  Compassion is weakness.  Conservatism that used to look to the past for wisdom and to the future with a sense that the present is to be held in trust for generations yet to come is all but dead in the US.  The new MBA-conservatives are unable to think past the end of the current fiscal year, and they are allied with theocons who think Jesus is going to show up any moment now and give them front row seats while the likes of me are eternally tortured for their entertainment.  Fuck them all.

Comment #9: togolosh  on  06/03  at  12:12 PM

I’ve had this “conversation” (read lecture) from my father, who is a non-religious right-wing crypto-wingnut - you know, “volcanos put out CO2, global warming is nonsense, it’s part of the regular climate cycle, blah blah blah” for some time now, and I’ve come to the conclusion that at least for some of these individuals it’s more a case of “la la la can’t hear you I’ll find reasons not to change anything la la la because I don’t want to disrupt my SUV-owning upper-middle-class lifestyle by paying more for anything la la la” wishful thinking. 

It boils down to a “if it will cost me more at the pump/WalMart I refuse to accept that environmentalists might be right” philosophy more than anything else - for at least a part of the right-wing melange.

Comment #10: tannenburg  on  06/03  at  12:13 PM

Sometimes I think our visual media makes practical environmental thought impossible.  They focus on charismatic animals and thematic pictures, filled with Things That Are/Look Wrong.

One of the fascinating things about the oil spill, such as a person like me finds fascinating, is how much so much of the discussion is rather besides the point.  Much of the media is still focused on Exxon Valdez poor little dears in some far away spot type coverage, when there are a great deal of rather insidious complications that result from this oil spill that will impact people who are privileged enough to squawk big time once they understand.

Not to mention that there is a high probability of a catastrophic hurricane season on the scale of 2005, which will add more spills and prevent repairs on this one.

Comment #11: shah8  on  06/03  at  12:14 PM

scathew, I might be more inclined to agree if I saw any regret at all.  I just see excuse-mongering based in real indifference to the fact that much the Gulf’s marshlands are probably going to wash away.

Understood.

Comment #12: scathew  on  06/03  at  12:17 PM

Scary thing is, I think some these guys really figure that it doesn’t matter how we screw the environment because Jesus is gonna come down and take care of it all. I think their first reason for saying is a knee-jerk “liberals like it therefore it must be bad” thing, but they feel comfortable with it because the rapture concept is there as a back-up.

That seems to be a very true idea currently running in conservatism.  Something close to 30-40% of the christian right actually believe rapture will happen in their lifetime which is why so many of them are opting for this scorched earth policy that is doing nothing but gutting our planet. 

Caren hit what I was going after on the head.  The rate we’re abusing the planet will turn the southern US into a true desert, the mid-Atlantic & upper Midwest will become subtropical if we’re lucky and generally the planet will go from being able to support 60 billion without advancements to barely 10 billion.  I refer back to the gilded age, people will vote against their own best interest as long as you give them the chance at money.  Which is what conservatives are trying to do in this case and I pray it isn’t working.

Comment #13: Xeranar  on  06/03  at  12:18 PM

Xeranar—a very close friend of mine was raised in a white-eyeballed evangelical fundie environment. He told me that they actually instructed the children Not To Worry About Dying Because The World Was Going To End Soon And We’ll All Be Raptured Up LONG Before You Get Old.

Comment #14: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  12:23 PM

Scary thing is, I think some these guys really figure that it doesn’t matter how we screw the environment because Jesus is gonna come down and take care of it all.

Worse, I think some actually see global warming, war, stuff like this, etc. as being necessary for the rapture. I think they actually see this as a positive sign of the oncoming of Christ.

Having read much of the New Testament, a part of me kind of hopes that it does happen (Jesus comes back), because man is he going to be pissed at them…

Comment #15: scathew  on  06/03  at  12:28 PM

Hi all, one of my friends family member is an environmental scientist and I am on my way to working towards public health degree (well it will be one of my main focuses) and this type of thinking does scare the heck out of me. I agree with Mighty Ponygirl I think well I try to wonder why these people want to speed up the destruction of the earth and then like MP said I think they want or think Jesus is coming back and the Rapture and all and it is like a oh I want to get there faster! As stated on here before I live in WV and people here are just a mix of reasonable people and wingnuts (the area is now being invaded by what the wingnut community calls liberal trash due to Mylan and other firms hiring more scientific peeps to the area thus the reasonable people here in WV and then the oldtimer wingnuts not wanting the “liberal trash” here peeps). I go to WVU and in my earlier classes the religious kids seemed to be taking from their oldtimer parents that if we speed up the end Jesus will come back and take the “good” to heaven. Again I think Mighty Ponygirl has a point as does anyone else who said it. Thankfully those religious kids seemed to disappear from my higher up classes. But back to the original point my friend’s dad who is the environmental guy just seems real sad of late about this spill and I as a student of public health wonder what it will do to us all in the long term but yeah let’s blame the tree huggers? Makes no sense.

Comment #16: bucketsoffate  on  06/03  at  12:29 PM

they feel comfortable with it because the rapture concept is there as a back-up.

Link

The widespread environmental apathy among evangelicals was perhaps best summed up in the words of James G. Watt, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan, who said, “My responsibility is to follow the Scriptures, which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns.”

OTOH, you have the Rev. Graham making sense for a change of pace:

Indeed, even Billy Graham, arguably the most notorious fire-and-brimstone evangelical alive today, recently admitted that “the growing possibility of our destroying ourselves and the world with our own neglect and excess is tragic and very real.”

Comment #17: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/03  at  12:31 PM

“the growing possibility of our destroying ourselves and the world with our own neglect and excess is tragic and very real.”

That’s heartening because I’ve always wondered what they expected if they brought on all the symptoms of the “rapture” and the rapture never comes.  At least it sounds like some of them are starting to think about this scenario.

Hard to judge from one quote, but it does give hope.

Comment #18: scathew  on  06/03  at  12:40 PM

Years ago, I read a “science fiction” book in which the last people on earth, having destroyed the ecosystem, retreated to sealed caves and ate (srsly!) “synthetic food”.

I’m old, I was raised with a possibly exaggerated respect for books.  It’s very hard for me to throw away a book. 

But I *burned* this one.

I think a lot of the right wing are counting on something like this “plan”.

Comment #19: Older  on  06/03  at  12:44 PM

I get that the fundies think this is part of the rapture and there may be some karmic justice in this occurring in red states. But when hurricane season hits, how far is that oil going to travel? As a hurricane gathers strength, does it have the potential to spread the oil it picks up from the ocean past the southern states? My northern state has gotten the tail end of many hurricanes and I hate to think of how much crap could end up in a thousand lakes and streams across the east/midwest if anything bigger than a Category 2 hits.

bucketsoffate, does your relative have a theory about this?

Comment #20: DC Fem  on  06/03  at  12:51 PM

But when hurricane season hits, how far is that oil going to travel? As a hurricane gathers strength, does it have the potential to spread the oil it picks up from the ocean past the southern states?

Good point (and goes with Amanda’s comment to some extent). I should probably check any sense of divine justice here. This really is lose/lose.

Comment #21: scathew  on  06/03  at  01:13 PM

Good thing Jeebus is going to take all of his righteous minions with him to heaven before any of them have to live with the consequences of the policies they support.

As for Rush Limbaugh, I think he emits far more CO2 than volcanoes do.

Comment #22: mythbri  on  06/03  at  01:28 PM

The right-wingers try to claim George Carlin was one of them because of shticks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=948Nm34arfA

Duh. That’s not a conservative point of view, it’s a reminder of exactly what Amanda is saying. “Save the planet? We don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet!”

And later: “The planet is fine. The people are fucked! The planet’s been here four and a half billion years!... The planet is going anywhere. We are.

Comment #23: catfood  on  06/03  at  01:28 PM

“Years ago, I read a “science fiction” book in which the last people on earth, having destroyed the ecosystem, retreated to sealed caves and ate (srsly!) “synthetic food”.”

Don’t forget that Soylent Green is made from people.  In the worst case scenario, our overlords will simply eat us.  So humanity will go on!  <strike>Wolverines!</strike> Morlocs!...

...sorry, I made a mistake.  Humans will go on.  But humanity died when we decided Jesus wants us to torture prisoners and bomb people into “Freedom” and “Democracy”...

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  01:35 PM

“My responsibility is to follow the Scriptures, which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns.”

The nerve. You’d think if the son of God himself entrusted his property to you, you’d at least try to return it *at least* as pristine as it was when he handed it to you.

Comment #25: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  01:37 PM

Speaking as someone who has had serious issues with environmentalists in the past, as well as being allied with some of them on different issues, part of the problem is the one that comes up when people use the term “environmentalist”.  There are the things that fall under “environmentalism” that are so generally accepted by society that the majority of people don’t really consider them environmental issues at all, there are the caricatures used by opponents, there are the issues that environmentalists see as problems but society overall may not (yet), and there are the batshit crazy nutcases who call themselves “environmentalists” and say/do stupid things.

Pretty much everyone agrees that clean air and water are good (their definitions of what “clean” means may be different, but the the basic concept is shared), so that really isn’t considered an environmental issue.  Then there’s the tree-hugging granola-eating hippie stereotype used by people like Limbaugh.  Then there are the issues, say climate change, or energy conservation/efficiency, that are slowly making their way into the public consciousness because not everyone sees them as problems.  And then there are the batshit crazy nutcases like, oh, Paul Watson.  Guess who gets the most press (and his own bloody TV show)?

The fact is, just as people who work in the resource industries are not all, in fact, villains from Captain Planet and can care just as deeply about the environment as someone who donates regularly to Greenpeace, not all people in the environmental movement are reasonable.  I have personally come across people who go on about protecting the environment but the reality is they want to keep large chunks of land untouched not because of any ecological concerns but out of the purely selfish motive that they consider that part of the world their private park, and don’t want anyone (including the people who actually live there) to ruin their view.  I’ve seen people who advocate preventing of development that has the opportunity to help others because hey, I got mine and any more development means harm to the environment, so fuck those guys.

The problem that comes up with many environmentalists in general is the “No enemies on left” (or right, pick your side) thinking that often goes on with it.  Some environmentalists can spout complete and total bullshit, but because other people might agree with the ultimate goal, they overlook it and write it off as someone being a bit too excited, or some other excuse.  And if someone corrects or questions the bullshit, the reaction ranges from total dismissal to accusations of being a pawn of industry.

Comment #26: KeithM  on  06/03  at  01:42 PM

Perhaps in discussions* of this sort it might be helpful to remind the wingnuts that the dose makes the poison.  A few hundredths of a gram of salt won’t hurt you in the least, and might even help.  A few hundred grams of salt will kill you.

* for values of discussion including having Noise Machine bloviating points yelled at you.

Comment #27: togolosh  on  06/03  at  02:01 PM

Notice how these jerks are saying these things to cover their ass in a NATIONAL forum.  I don’t think their financially-ruined constituents and their families are buying it, either.  These jerks know that they are potentially toast, no matter how much oil money they get in their coffers and are, at this point, auditioning for petroleum company lobbyists.

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  02:01 PM

Well, hurricanes or their remnants can bounce over to Europe.  And the thermo-haline circulator cycles from the Gulf over to Europe (it’s why Europe is as warm as it is despite being so far north).  All the oil has to do is get around the Florida penninsula to the east side of the country, and that oil can and will be sucked east and north.

Suppose it’s a gross karmic slap that Britain might feel the results of British Petroleum’s greed, but there’s no justice in any of this.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/03  at  02:02 PM

The widespread environmental apathy among evangelicals was perhaps best summed up in the words of James G. Watt, U.S. Secretary of the Interior under Ronald Reagan, who said, “My responsibility is to follow the Scriptures, which call upon us to occupy the land until Jesus returns.”

BlackBloc beat me to it, but I always want to ask those people what Jesus would think if he came back and saw how badly they’d been treating the things that he entrusted to them.  I think there’s even a parable along those lines.

Or, since they understand money better than Christianity, you can ask them, “If you gave your kid a sports car as a graduation present and he wrapped it around a tree a few days later, would you be upset or would you figure it was no big deal because you gave it to him as a present?”

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  06/03  at  02:03 PM

KeithM - good thing for you that strawmen are biodegradable.

Greenpeace backed away from the “parkland” concept decades ago.  Lisa Jackson has made it her personal crusade, if you will, to expand the environmental conversation to all walks of life.

You are preaching to people who haven’t done shit since the Valdez Incident, but not fooling a one of us who has been involved all along.

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  02:04 PM

A good website so Keith can catch up: www.ucsusa.org

Comment #32: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  02:07 PM

Here.

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2010/06/bp-oil-coming-beach-near-you-summer-2010

Animation showing what happens when the oil hits that circulator, which is inevitable.

Comment #33: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/03  at  02:20 PM

There is an idea I’ve seen presented in a few different sci-fi movies or TV shows that labels mankind as a parasite on the Earth.  I used to think it was thought/discussion provoking, but ultimately just a plot element that justifies destroying some beings/machine bent on our destruction.

Now I’m wondering if the best way to understand humanity’s place in the biosphere really is to assume we are nothing more than the basest parasites.  We don’t even get to claim a symbiotic relationship — with us it’s all take and no give…

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  02:32 PM

This is a typical rhetorical twist that righties use. Take some small portion of something and expand it to cover everything. Here, it’s oil spills have happened in the past and we’re not all dead so no oil spill of any magnitude is a problem. Or Shell has spilled lakes of crude in Nigeria, so it must be ok to cover the Gulf in oil.

Really though, is there any activity a business could do that was so vile and egregious that Rush couldn’t stand up for it?

Comment #35: stryx  on  06/03  at  03:01 PM

Yes, Stryx - my dad was listening when he tried to cast front-loading washers as a greenie communist islamist plot (only his listeners quite surprisingly fragged him pretty quickly on it - as in “I doubled my wash capacity and didn’t have to put in a new well”).

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  03:27 PM

KeithM - good thing for you that strawmen are biodegradable.

Greenpeace backed away from the “parkland” concept decades ago.  Lisa Jackson has made it her personal crusade, if you will, to expand the environmental conversation to all walks of life.

Greenpeace, by and large, I have not much of a problem with, but Greenpeace is not the sum total of the environmental movement.

This isn’t strawmen, this is fact: right now I’m involved in various issues where the people I represent, who actually live here, have to constantly fight to ensure that the rivers they use for travel, for fishing, and for recreation, are not restricted in using those rivers by people whose primary concern is keeping them “pristine” for recreational canoists from out of territory.  I’ve been in the room with people who loudly proclaimed they wanted huge chunks of territory set aside for no use whatsoever…and they couldn’t say why other than that it would be the largest protected area in the world.  I’ve been in community meetings where environmental activists have outright lied—not misinterpreted, not made a mistake (unless they were incredibly moronic, which I suppose is a possibility)—about issues.  I’ve been in others where statements might not have been deliberate lies but stretched the truth to the breaking point.

And your comment proves my point about the “no enemy on my side” thinking.  In this case, you think they don’t exist, or have any significance.  They do.  I deal with them, in one way or another all the time.

They might not have a significant role where you live, but they do where I do.

And pointing out a group like the Union of Concerned Scientists who have a rational, objective view doesn’t mean a whole lot.  That’s like pointing to a reasonable Republican and therefore arguing that there’s no nutcases on the US right wing.

Comment #37: KeithM  on  06/03  at  03:35 PM

“Arguments” (and I’m not convinced Don Young’s is rational enough to qualify) are absolutely sickening.  There are environmental issues that can be debated—ex. which are better, wind farms or solar panels?  (Because both require manufacturing, and presumably maintenance, and there’s the question of how to dispose of parts if they break down, etc., all of which can probably be improved.)  Whether a giant freaking oil spill is just going to float away and let everybody forget about it?

Ha.

It took ten years for the trees around here to recover from a single, severe ice storm, and they had the support and protection of a huge chunk of the ecosystem that basically went undamaged.  The oil spill is going to be a disaster of epic proportions, and natural disasters are not respectful of political—or moral—boundaries.

Comment #38: fluffster  on  06/03  at  03:35 PM

What Keith is talking about, and I’ve seen it before really does happen. But I’ll put the text to the subtext. There are conflicts between different types of naturalists. It’s true. I’ll give you an example.

Lets say you have a lake, that’s pretty much public. There’s some cottages surrounding the lake, maybe a campsite or two. Typical lakefront development. When the topic of use comes up, often, there are two competing interests here. First, you have the people who want peace and quiet. Second, you have the people who want to go zipping around the lake in their speedboats and jetskiis.

Those two interests in fact, are really impossible to reconcile. Both groups are basically stepping all over one another. So that’s when you get the sort of conflict that Keith mentions. Although it’s not about extremist ideologues or anything like that. It’s generally about self-interest and how each individual would like to use the lake. Not that I’m saying there’s anything wrong or improper about it. It’s the standard conflict that comes up all the time, especially in local land-use politics.

Comment #39: Karmakin  on  06/03  at  03:50 PM

A lot of us have no doubt that the planet will eventually recover long after we’re gone—-but that’s the eventuality we’re working on staving off.  We don’t want humanity to be long gone, but if you fuck up our planet badly enough, it’s entirely possible that it will be one day.

I think it’s pretty simple for the anti-environmentalists.

The reality is that we are gradually destroying the planet, a fact that I think most people recognize deep down, even conservatives who don’t want to admit it.  The reason why they don’t care is simple - even in the most dire scientific predictions, it is generally assumed that whatever cataclysmic environmental catastrophe that ultimetely extincts the human population will most likely not occur in the lifetime of anybody who is currently alive in 2010.  It’s easy to get to a place of not caring about the fate of people who won’t even be conceived for a few centuries.  We have no idea who these people are, as none of them even exists right now.  Without changing our ways, humanity will eventually die… but it won’t happen until long after the current population has died.  Even a baby born this very minute who lives for 100 years probably won’t be around long enough to personally experience the ultimate horrible end result of our environmentally destructive ways.

However it all plays out, most humans alive in 2010 believe that environmental destruction won’t directly affect them in a drastic way.  Most of us will probably be long since deceased by the time the destructive ways of humanity have made this planet uninhabitable for human beings.

And this is what makes fighting for the environment so difficult.  The processes in play which are killing the planet are not happening fast enough to cause universal uproar among the 6.5 Billion humans who live here right now.  Even things like Hurricane Katrina, which arguably was influenced by the effects of global warming, don’t emotionally resonate with enough people to bring about drastic change.  Yes, it destroyed a great city and killed over 1,000 people.  But 1,000 people is still less than 0.0001% of the entire current human population.  A person is far more likely to die in a car accident than they are to die as a direct consequence of global warming.  As such, most people probably worry more about being killed on the road than they worry about being killed by disasters like the Gulf oil spill.

It’s a very myopic worldview, but it makes sense in a sick sort of way.  For 99.99% of Americans, Katrina was a terrible tragedy that happened on television, and while certainly a very sad event, most people didn’t feel personally impacted by it, because most people don’t live in New Orleans or on the Gulf Coast.

And even with this oil spill, while it will have absolutely devestating long-term consequences, most people won’t be thinking about it 24-7 six months from now.  And while the cost of shrimp and gulf seafood will probably rise dramatically, we’ll not be consciously thinking about it after we adjust to the price hikes.  Think about gas prices… they are significantly higher than they were a decade ago, and while it hasn’t gone unnoticed by most people, how many people put gas in their car yesterday on their way to work, and found themselves spending the next 8 hours pondering nothing but the huge spike in the cost of gas this decade?  I’m guessing not many.

The environmental crisis isn’t in the front of people’s minds because it isn’t something that we can really observe happening in real time.  And it’s not something that any one person or even 1,000 people can deal with effectively - it has to be a global movement to actually make a difference.

It’s kind of like trying to watch a tree grow… has anybody ever actually witnessed the process of a 5 foot tall tree growing into a 20 foot tall tree right before their eyes?  Highly unlikely… almost nobody would sit in the exact same place for many consecutive years to witness the tree actually quadrupling in height.  And even if someone did do that, they wouldn’t visibly see the cells multiplying and the tree increasing in size.  While they could identify the tree’s change in size over several months time, they wouldn’t be able to actually see the quantifiable growth that occurs over a two hour timespan in the middle of summer after the leaves are in full bloom.  It’s the same phenomena that leads to apathy on environmental issues.  We don’t literally feel the earth getting hotter on a second-by-second basis, we don’t literally see the human race heading towards extinction, and the vast majority of us don’t have an easily identifiable first-hand experience of the destruction occuring around us, so it doesn’t seem “real” to a large number of people.

I fear that we won’t get serious about this until the immediate consequences force us to take it more seriously… and by then it will probably be too late.

Comment #40: DTG in STL  on  06/03  at  03:58 PM

“I’ve been in the room with people who loudly proclaimed they wanted huge chunks of territory set aside for no use whatsoever…and they couldn’t say why other than that it would be the largest protected area in the world.”

I suppose this was much more in line with your thinking:
...They took all the trees
Put ‘em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see ‘em
Don’t it always seem to go
That you don’t know what you’ve got
Till it’s gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot…

What do those dirty hippies want, anyway?...

“I’ve been in community meetings where environmental activists have outright lied—not misinterpreted, not made a mistake (unless they were incredibly moronic, which I suppose is a possibility)—about issues.  I’ve been in others where statements might not have been deliberate lies but stretched the truth to the breaking point.”

...of course, the business people who want to cut everything down, dump toxic waste on it, and then build tract houses over all of it all lie like rugs, but you expect that. 

Somehow it’s so much worse when some Dirty Hippie Tree Hugging EnviroNut does it, amirit?...

...double standard?  What do you mean?...

Comment #41: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  04:00 PM

has anybody ever actually witnessed the process of a 5 foot tall tree growing into a 20 foot tall tree right before their eyes? 

Yes, actually.  When I was a toddler I “helped” my mother plant her garden by burying acorns, and a couple of decades later, there’s an oak tree about as tall as our house in the back yard.  Super unusual in today’s world, but probably really good for me, since it’s a very solid (and tall!) example of what nature actually looks like, and how we can affect it.  You kind of have to wonder how many anti-environmentalists are the types who’ve never actually lived with many plants around, because they’re pretty impressive to watch grow up.

Comment #42: fluffster  on  06/03  at  04:15 PM

(facepalm) If I am remembering correctly, total natural seepage for the entire planet is estimated at a few thousand barrels per year. Which is less that the current spill put out in the first day. Can this idiot really not see the difference in scale?

Comment #43: Mike Crichton  on  06/03  at  04:22 PM

>...of course, the business people who want to cut everything down, dump toxic waste on it, and then build tract houses over all of it all lie like rugs, but you expect that. 

saddam hussein is worse than the government of the usa, therefore you should never criticize anything the government of the usa does

Comment #44: anonlololol  on  06/03  at  04:31 PM

Speaking as an ecologist-in-training, there is, in fact, good reason to preserve ‘pristine’ and ‘untouched’ ecosystems. For one thing, how are we supposed to figure out how ecosystems develop and function if we don’t have an uninterrupted one to study? Secondly, any large animal is going to require large contiguous land for it’s territory. More if you want more than one (or more) viable population(s) around.

And lastly, as a professor I know so often loves to say: The birds and fish and turtles and lizards and algae and grasses and trees and bacteria and worms and grasshoppers and beetles and all the other things that live on this planet have just as much right to the planet and to live undisturbed as humans do.

Comment #45: morningface  on  06/03  at  04:34 PM

I lived in Santa Barbara for years and the pro-offshore drillering types regularly trot out the “natural seepage” carnard.  They make the argument that drilling was good for the local environment because sucking oil out of the sea floor would actually reduce the level of natural seepage.  The beaches there—particularly at “Coal Oil Point” (yes that’s the name) near UC Santa Barbara—are often fouled with tar. So much so that people in the student community og Isla Vista keep baby oil next to the front door for the sole purpose of removing the black ooze from their feet after a day at the beach. 

Believe me when I tell you…oil in your ocean sux!

Comment #46: Hornet  on  06/03  at  04:35 PM

This oil spill, esp. when you combine it with an upcoming hurricane season that is supposed to be pretty serious, is some End Times Shit.

No it isn’t.  Everything’s gonna be fine.

Comment #47: Billy from FLA  on  06/03  at  04:38 PM

Somehow it’s so much worse when some Dirty Hippie Tree Hugging EnviroNut does it, amirit?…

...double standard?  What do you mean?…

Yeah, it is.  Mainly because when my sympathies lie in a given direction, I want the arguments people on my side to make to be right.  The other guy lies, well, what do you expect?  They’re the other guy.  I expect them to lie.

Solid example: I am against commercial whaling.  I think the Japanese are full of shit with their “research whaling”, I think that arguments about “traditional cultural use” (with a few exceptions, such as the Inuit) are full of shit, and evidence shows that Japan doesn’t even have the need for whale meat; they can’t even give the stuff away.

Yet in the whole controversy over whaling the one I despise the most is goddamn Paul Watson and his bunch of jerkasses.  I don’t care if the ultimate goal—the prevention of the bullshit “research whaling”—is the same, the man is such a lying assholish prick that he taints the entire anti-whaling movement.

I don’t have nearly as much disgust with the people who argue in support of whaling because, well, I’m confident the facts and the moral high ground are on my side.  I just hate sharing that side with the waste of human tissue that is Watson.

I’ve also seen the same thing on the industry side.  My role is an intermediary between local people and (mostly) exploration and mining companies, and as such I am both an advocate for industry investment, and work to ensure that negative effects are minimized on people and the environment.  I have told people in the industry the same thing: don’t lie, and don’t defend other people in the industry who lie or try and justify blatantly bad things.  But, of course, the same thing happens as happens with environmentalists.  People are hesitant to say anything negative about others in the industry because they feel that gives ammunition to the “other side”.  When I’ve been in meetings, the exact same perceptions, for good or bad, are seen of environmentalists as environmentalists see in the industry.

Comment #48: KeithM  on  06/03  at  04:42 PM

morningface, what you say makes a lot of sense, and I think anyone who isn’t some teabagging wingnut (or GlennPecker/RushLimpburger) would recognize the truth, at least if you got them in a situation where their manhood was not at stake for admitting that actual nature is kinda cool and maybe we shouldn’t just hack it all down and burn it just because we have the capability to do so.

But in public, and for the consumption of The Base, no Right wing politician can be seen backing away from the party line of “Drill it, Mine it, Dump it, or Kill it”...

Comment #49: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  04:46 PM

One train of thought has it that the French Recolution was triggered by food shortages.

When the ecosystems are strained and people don’t have enough to eat, it won’t be just those at the bottom of the heap suffering - guillotines or their modern equivalents will be making a comeback.  And, come to think of it, every person in the West is probably in the fat French aristocracy class when the global community is considered.

Comment #50: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/03  at  04:47 PM

I take it Billy isn’t involved in the Tourism industry, fishing industry, or any other actual water dependent industry in florida.

Either that, or he’s sucking much happyjuice to cover denial.

Comment #51: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  04:56 PM

MikeEss, wasn’t that a Daft Punk song?

Comment #52: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/03  at  05:01 PM

morningface, what you say makes a lot of sense, and I think anyone who isn’t some teabagging wingnut (or GlennPecker/RushLimpburger) would recognize the truth, at least if you got them in a situation where their manhood was not at stake for admitting that actual nature is kinda cool and maybe we shouldn’t just hack it all down and burn it just because we have the capability to do so.

Most do.  I don’t know many people whose ideal world that they’d actually want to live in consists of endless parking lots and industrial buildings.  On the other hand, most people would prefer not to give up the things they consider necessities just to have pristine wilderness everywhere.  It’s when the argument is phrased so that it seems the only choices are one or the other, people on both sides inevitably get upset and positions harden because of the fallacy of the excluded middle.

Comment #53: KeithM  on  06/03  at  05:10 PM

“MikeEss, wasn’t that a Daft Punk song?”

Joni Mitchell...with many cover versions by other artists over the years…

Comment #54: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  05:12 PM

Believing Jesus is going to magically fix everything may be the rationale that this yokels slap on afterward, but the real motivator (IMO) is intellectual laziness. 

Thinking about complex systems, how they interact, how much more information you need, what you’re going to have to do and how you and the people around you are going to have to change is a ton of work.  And that’s just the thinking part—not even the doing part.

Much easier to tell yourself:
[Ecologic Underpants Gnomes—> Oil Bye-Bye!]

And no surprise, it comes from the same people who think free markets will fix everything—and for the same reasons.

Comment #55: Molly, NYC  on  06/03  at  05:18 PM

KeithM, if I may ask: who is paying your salary?

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  05:29 PM

has anybody ever actually witnessed the process of a 5 foot tall tree growing into a 20 foot tall tree right before their eyes? 

Yes, actually.  When I was a toddler I “helped” my mother plant her garden by burying acorns, and a couple of decades later, there’s an oak tree about as tall as our house in the back yard.  Super unusual in today’s world, but probably really good for me, since it’s a very solid (and tall!) example of what nature actually looks like, and how we can affect it.  You kind of have to wonder how many anti-environmentalists are the types who’ve never actually lived with many plants around, because they’re pretty impressive to watch grow up.

Let me clarify… did you physically witness the precise occurance of the tree going from being 3’5” tall to 3’6” tall?

What I meant with that characterization is that the growth of a tree is such a long and slow process that our perception of it happening is unable to differentiate between the moment when the tree was 3’5” tall to the moment when the tree is 3’6” tall.  While it’s theoretically possible that someone could physically watch this occur, they probably couldn’t ascertain the precise millisecond in which the tree attained a height of 3’6”.

Young children are constantly growing, but we don’t really notice it on a minute-by-minute basis with children that we are around everyday, whereas a relative who hasn’t seen the child in several years can immediately recognize just how much the child has grown since they last saw them.  Recognizing the difference between 3’ and 4’ with the naked eye isn’t difficult.  Recognizing the difference between 3.999999’ and 4’ is nearly impossible with the naked eye.

The environment outside my house is not starkly different than it was the day before the BP well started spewing oil into the ocean.  If I were an isolationist living off the grid and away from all human contact, I wouldn’t even be aware that it had occurred.  And yet despite the fact that I don’t have a direct sensory experience of the damage being caused by the spill, I know that it is hurting the planet.

The problem humanity faces in dealing with our stewardship of the environment is that we don’t really see the direct impact of our own individual actions on the environment.  If I toss an aluminum can on the side of the road, I’m not wondering if that one can will ultimately cause the entire human species to die.  I know that one can alone won’t.  But, if I am ethical and responsible, I realize that while my individual actions might not have significant impact, my actions as part of the greater whole do have an adverse impact.  And if I can excuse myself for being destructive to the world, I’m probably not in a position to criticize others when they do it, and I’m probably not thinking of the fact that 1 Million people treating the world the way that I do WILL have a statistically significant adverse impact on the planet.

Thinking globally while acting locally is a concept that is still tragically lost on many people.  As long as I’m not the one to place the final straw that breaks the camel’s back, whatever happens isn’t really my fault.  That’s the mental contortion anti-environmentalists use to justify their own behavior.

Comment #57: DTG in STL  on  06/03  at  05:31 PM

On the other hand, most people would prefer not to give up the things they consider necessities just to have pristine wilderness everywhere.

Which in the end is why we’re all “part of the problem” unfortunately (or at least I certainly am). This is why I’m not very optimistic about the future - it’s too easy for us to go on enjoying the fruits of the destruction, particularly when it’s often in someone else’s backyard. Even the most environmentally conscious people I’ve met have some sort of vice - even if it’s collecting solar panels, windmills, and batteries (all of which have to be fabricated of course).

Don’t take that as me putting them down - their footprint is still a lot better than mine, but the point is even the best of us are probably registering a net negative on the world (I am sure there are exceptions - there are always exceptions, though probably not enough to tilt the balance).

Honestly, we almost need a gigantic session that where we go, “Hi, my name is Aron and I’m a nature killer.” We need cultural therapy to cure us of our materialist addictions.

Comment #58: scathew  on  06/03  at  05:32 PM

If I toss an aluminum can on the side of the road, I’m not wondering if that one can will ultimately cause the entire human species to die.

Don’t take this as disagreeing with your ultimate point, which is well put, but I think this actually illuminates part of our environmental issue. To most people being a good environmental steward means not tossing cans (ie: littering). Thus people can convince themselves that they’re on the “good” side `cause they don’t litter. That makes it easier to forget that they’re driving 80 mph on the highway (which I am certainly guilty of).

In short, we have sort of a “window dressing” idea of environmentalism. Clean streets mean a clean environment, when the real killers of the world are much more pernicious - like the sludge that comes from making our mobile phones and the rest of the toys we need our regular fix of.

And if I can excuse myself for being destructive to the world, I’m probably not in a position to criticize others when they do it

Moreover, who am I to criticize people say in Chile living in squalor, just trying to eek out 1/10th the standard of living I live in? Sure, their slums are more visibly ugly, but my invisible CO2 is just as deadly to the world in the end. Also, how can I say, “Don’t cut your forests down”, when we happily raped our countryside to get where we are.

And now I will drive home in my new car, hopefully thinking about this when Idon’t speed… :-(

Comment #59: scathew  on  06/03  at  05:43 PM

Well, we have the session every moment of every fucking day.

Talk therapy really doesn’t work with us.  We’re just a little too capable of self-delusion.

Comment #60: shah8  on  06/03  at  05:47 PM

#54: MikeEss:

“MikeEss, wasn’t that a Daft Punk song?”
Joni Mitchell…with many cover versions by other artists over the years…

Mighty Ponygirl is referring to the song “Technologic”.

Plug it, play it, burn it, rip it,
Drag and drop it, zip - unzip it,

It was used in an iPod commercial.

Comment #61: Derek L  on  06/03  at  06:21 PM

“Mighty Ponygirl is referring to the song “Technologic”.
...
It was used in an iPod commercial.”

I’m an old fart who doesn’t understand you kids and your constantly listening to those EyeProd things…when you aren’t sexy-texting or talking all the time into one of those bluetool things…

...and it is too much to ask for you to pull up your damn pants?...

And get off my lawn!...

smile

Comment #62: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  06:31 PM

KeithM, if I may ask: who is paying your salary?

You may.  I work for a native land claims organization whose primary responsibility is to represent the interests of the beneficiaries of said land claim.  My primary responsibility is taking care of the mineral ownership they received from the claim, which consists mainly of managing the mineral rights issued, negotiating with industry for benefit agreements and agreements under what terms they’ll explore the land, and monitoring what they do (as well as collecting royalties if they find something and develop it).

However, and this actually takes up most of my time, I’m also involved, either directly or in a consultation role, with things such environmental regulation and reviews, devolution of federal responsibilities to the territory, drafting of federal and territorial laws, negotiation with federal and territorial governments on various land issues, benefits agreements for parks and conservation areas, geoscience and other research, general land use, environmental monitoring, training and education when it comes to geoscience or the mining/exploration industry (and oil and gas, if it ever happens around here, which it will eventually), land use planning, community consultation on virtually everything to do with the land, consulting and planning for infrastructure (everything from basic roads to hydroelectric facilities and power lines), providing information to beneficiaries on who is doing what where, and relaying concerns from beneficiaries, but also non-beneficiary local people, to where it has to go.

Basically, if it has something to do with the land and water (with the general exception of hunting, fishing, trapping or other activity involving wildlife harvesting) in the area I’m responsible for, I’m likely involved in it somewhere.  This area represents roughly 1/5th of the Canadian landmass, 1/13th of the North American landmass, and, were it a country, would be the 12th largest.  My employers, counting only the land they own outright thanks to the land claim, are collectively the single largest private landowner in North America.

All this to say, yeah, I know a little about land and resource management and use, environmental regulation and monitoring, balancing the socioeconomic needs of communities with the needs of industry and with environmental protection.  And deal with environmental groups, industry, native and local peoples, and government, with all the competing and complementary interests involved, on a fairly regular basis.

Comment #63: KeithM  on  06/03  at  06:41 PM

Clean streets mean a clean environment, when the real killers of the world are much more pernicious - like the sludge that comes from making our mobile phones and the rest of the toys we need our regular fix of.

Is communication a necessity?  If yes, then are cellphones, with all the sludge that comes from making them, more or less environmentally damaging than extracting, refining and making cable out of all the copper or silica for fiber-optic needed for landlines?

I have no idea myself, but I suspect I know what the answer is: in third world countries cellphone use is exploding because it allows you to bring modern communications without the extensive infrastructure required for running cables.  So what you consider a toy is not only a critical necessity in other places, it’s an environmental benefit.

Comment #64: KeithM  on  06/03  at  06:47 PM

My role is an intermediary between local people and (mostly) exploration and mining companies

Don’t take it the wrong way, but without more info to go on it reads a lot like “I’m the guy in charge of the greenwashing”.

There are a lot of industries that do bad out there but mining? Man. From labor problems to enviro problems… and from what I’ve read, the amount of cleanup it costs for, say, a copper mine is more than what the copper you’ll extract is worth on the market.

But we all work for the bad guys, one way or the other, I guess. I make software that makes engineering firms more efficient at their job. And a client of ours is Halliburton. so indirectly, etc etc…

Comment #65: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  06:49 PM

And I guess KeithM responding before my message got through makes me look like a jackass. Sorry KeithM.

Comment #66: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  06:54 PM

I’d rather have you on the side of the locals than the side of the company, if you get what I mean. You must meet a lot of PR persons in your line of work.

Comment #67: BlackBloc  on  06/03  at  06:55 PM

”...I know a little about land and resource management and use, environmental regulation and monitoring, balancing the socioeconomic needs of communities with the needs of industry and with environmental protection.”

Got any tar sands under any of that landmass you’re responsible for?  ‘Cause if you do, we already know what the “balance” between the “socioeconomic needs of communities” and the “needs of industry” will be.

And when the land is sucked dry and the whole place is a polluted and frozen desert from one side to the other, then how will the “socioeconomic needs” of the communities be met?

And why is it the phrase “socioeconomic” always emphasizes the “economic” and ignores the “socio”?...

Comment #68: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  07:00 PM

And I guess KeithM responding before my message got through makes me look like a jackass. Sorry KeithM.

Not a problem.  it happens.

Comment #69: KeithM  on  06/03  at  07:39 PM

Got any tar sands under any of that landmass you’re responsible for?  ‘Cause if you do, we already know what the “balance” between the “socioeconomic needs of communities” and the “needs of industry” will be.

“I don’t care to take a few seconds and use google to find the answer to the question which would determine whether my snarky commentary attacking you has any basis in fact, so I’ll do it anyway and look like an ass.”

Is that an accurate translation?

Comment #70: KeithM  on  06/03  at  07:41 PM

I’d rather have you on the side of the locals than the side of the company, if you get what I mean. You must meet a lot of PR persons in your line of work.

I get invited to meeting specifically to be the jerkass who asks questions people would prefer not to get asked, if that’s what you mean.

But it isn’t about taking sides.  That’s the problem with what a lot of people think, and part of my job is trying to beat that out of their heads.  If a given project is of local benefit, and the company can do it economically, and the negative environmental impacts can be minimized, then a project goes ahead as a partnership.

If a company goes in seeing dealing with local people and meeting environmental regulations as something they have to fight against, if local people see the company as invaders who just want to rape and pillage the area and leave a mess behind, well, very quickly that goes nowhere.

As I tell people, I make the same salary regardless of whether I’m sitting in my office doing nothing because we’ve stopped anything from happening, or working on trying to get projects that can work to (nearly) everyone’s satisfaction.  The former is actually rather easier, so it’s not like I have anything to gain by doing my damnedest to try and make things work.

Comment #71: KeithM  on  06/03  at  08:09 PM

“I don’t care to take a few seconds and use google to find the answer to the question which would determine whether my snarky commentary attacking you has any basis in fact, so I’ll do it anyway and look like an ass.”

This is what I read from you:
“This area represents roughly 1/5th of the Canadian landmass, 1/13th of the North American landmass, and, were it a country, would be the 12th largest.”

“My employers, counting only the land they own outright thanks to the land claim, are collectively the single largest private landowner in North America.”

A guess: J.D. Irving? 
Business(s):  “Forestry & Forest Products, Transportation, Shipbuilding & Industrial Marine, Retail, Industrial Equipment, Construction Services & Building Materials, Consumer Products”

Is that close enough?

So instead of polluting everything by oil extraction, you cut everything down and sell it all piece-by-piece.  Cool.  I’m sure there’s no environmental impact from any of that.  I’m also sure all the people in those communities you care so deeply about are living exceptional lives thanks to the graciousness of the Halliburton of Canada…right?...

The only other concern I can find that claims to be the largest private landowner is the Eastern Irrigation District…

Comment #72: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  08:09 PM

Well, aside from personal satisfaction at doing what I hope was the right thing, I mean.

Comment #73: KeithM  on  06/03  at  08:15 PM

A guess: J.D. Irving?
Business(s):  “Forestry & Forest Products, Transportation, Shipbuilding & Industrial Marine, Retail, Industrial Equipment, Construction Services & Building Materials, Consumer Products”

Is that close enough?

Perhaps the words “native land claims organization” were invisible or something in what I posted…nope, there they are, first line of what I wrote.

Comment #74: KeithM  on  06/03  at  08:35 PM

So instead of polluting everything by oil extraction, you cut everything down and sell it all piece-by-piece.  Cool.  I’m sure there’s no environmental impact from any of that.  I’m also sure all the people in those communities you care so deeply about are living exceptional lives thanks to the graciousness of the Halliburton of Canada…right?

...and to continue this example of truly epic fail of Google-fu, I did everything except name the jurisdiction explicitly.  Were someone competent able to discover the name (the phrase “1/5th of Canada” only has it come up on the first entry, after all), a bit of reading would quickly discover why I find the accusation of engaging in rampant forestry so gut-bustingly hilarious.

Comment #75: KeithM  on  06/03  at  08:47 PM

”...a bit of reading would quickly discover why I find the accusation of engaging in rampant forestry so gut-bustingly hilarious.”

Glad I could be of help to you… smile

Comment #76: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  09:28 PM

Somehow it’s so much worse when some Dirty Hippie Tree Hugging EnviroNut does it, amirit?…

Actually, it’s well documented that there’s a perverse psychological effect in play here—because we expect the self-interested to violate moral codes in service of, well, self-interest, we’re less repelled when they do it than when the public-spirited violate similar rules. So yes, there’s a double standard. It’s fairly widespread. And it cuts against the good guys.

What else is new?

Comment #77: The Erl  on  06/03  at  09:34 PM

Yeahhhh, yer kinda suckin’ there, MikeEss.  Try reading a little slower, turn the rage knob off “11”.

Comment #78: Eric_RoM  on  06/03  at  09:46 PM

Okay, Eric, help me out here.

Not that I really care (just being honest — it’s been a shitty day for me and this topic relates to some things that I’m already very pissed off about), but what have I missed that KeithM said that would help me understand that he and the firm he works for are exclusively good, good, good, and not like BP?

Maybe it’s just because I’m a born-and-bred, lived-in-the-US-all-my-life, damn-near-50-year-old-cynic and seen-a-lot-of-bad-shit-during-my-lifetime kind of guy, but my experience and understanding of history says that when big business gets involved with anything that can affect both the environment and citizens simultaneously, neither the environment nor the citizens will benefit…

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  06/03  at  10:08 PM

Comment #20: DC Fem on 06/03 at 10:51 AM:

But when hurricane season hits, how far is that oil going to travel? As a hurricane gathers strength, does it have the potential to spread the oil it picks up from the ocean past the southern states?

From Dr. Jeff Masters’s excellent article about what a hurricane might do to the oil spill:

Hurricanes evaporate huge amounts of water from the ocean and convert it to rain. In general, we do not need to worry about oil dissolving into the rain, since the oil and water don’t mix. Furthermore, about 50-70% of the oil that is going to evaporate from the spill does so in the first 12 hours that the oil reaches the surface, so the volatile oil compounds that could potentially get dissolved into rain water won’t be around. Hurricanes are known to carry sea salt and microscopic marine plankton hundreds of miles inland, since the strong updrafts of the storm can put these substances high in the troposphere where they can be carried far inland as the hurricane makes landfall. The Eastern Pacific’s Hurricane Nora of 1997, whose remnants passed over Southern California, brought traces of sea salt and marine microorganisms to clouds over the central U.S. similarly, we can expect any landfalling hurricanes that pass over the oil spill to pick up traces of Gulf of Mexico crude and transport it hundreds of miles inland. However, I doubt that these traces would be detectable in rainwater except by laboratory analysis, and would not cause any harm to plants or animals.

Also on his blog are an number of other articles about the oil spill.

Comment #80: llewelly  on  06/03  at  10:39 PM

There is a caveat.

This assumes that the oil leak is plugged *before* a hurricane sends the volatiles everywheres.  If a nice lil’ storm like say…Arlene or Cindy happens along, plenty of people may have…issues.

Comment #81: shah8  on  06/03  at  11:17 PM

Generally speaking, a lot of those on the right who sneer at environmentalists are either cornucopians, who believe the technology fairy will come along at the right moment to extricate us from our predicament of dependence on earthly limitations or apocalyptics who believe that we are in the process of driving ourselves off a cliff and there’s not a damn thing we can do to stop it. But then there’s a lot of progressives who believe these sort of things as well! And that’s because the vast majority of us are captive to the belief in Progress!

Cornucopians on the right believe in the fluffy bunny of the Market, which will somehow guide us to the Promised Land. On the left, it’s the notion that somehow we can renewable energy and electric car our way into a bright, sustainable future which everyone on this planet can enjoy. We’re quite familiar with the apocalyptics of the right; the movie Avatar is an apocalyptic vision with a decidedly leftward bent.

We need to be honest with ourselves here. What BP has done to the Gulf is horrendous. But they are only doing our dirty work for us. As a nation, we have pretty burned into our identity the notion that middle-class freedom centers on car- and home-ownership. As a consequence we Americans hoover up about 25% of world oil production to maintain our middle-class way of life. And all of us, even those who walk, bike, take public transit to work, participate in this economy and benefit from it in some way or another.

I look at the unmitigated disaster in the Gulf and I see not only the sins of BP, but myself reflected in it as well.

And when idiots like Limbaugh and Palin blame environmentalists for this by ‘forcing’ oil companies offshore, I shake my head at their appalling ignorance of geology and the workings of the Market they so slavishly idolize. The irony here is that the BP oil spewing may likely end a lot of the deepwater oil exploration and production, not by anything environmentalists cook up or regulations governments impose, but because the cost of insuring these projects will surely skyrocket and (if BP’s Thunder Horse is any indication) the payoffs will be far, far less than hoped for. The bean counters will say, “Fuggedaboudit! Let’s become a bank instead!”

Comment #82: revrick  on  06/03  at  11:21 PM

Keith, thank you for being candid.

I work simultaneously on EPA and Industry grant money that is pooled for an independent research foundation - but while they work with us to set our research agenda, they don’t get to determine what the research findings are or change them or run our programs.  That is, I would say, a bit more toward neutral than what you are about (although it can sometimes be quite uncomfortable).

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  06/03  at  11:23 PM

what have I missed that KeithM said that would help me understand that he and the firm he works for are exclusively good, good, good, and not like BP?

Since you’re American, you’re obviously aware of how the original population of what is now the United States have generally been screwed.  No one need remind you about the Trail of Tears, the way the Black Hills were pretty much outright stolen in the gold rush, the pitiful condition on reservations, the way the Bureau of Indian Affairs has been negligent in assuring that various tribes have received the money owed them from mining and the like.  The Indians have generally been boned by just about everyone, industry and government, right?

And you know that the First Nations and inuit of Canada have suffered much of the same issues, yes?

To be very explicit, you know the people who are stereotypically protrayed as being the victims of the land-grabbers and mining industry who pollute their lands and then leave?  I work for them.  They pay my salary.  They’re the ones I report to.  They’re the ones who tell me what they want done.

Comment #84: KeithM  on  06/03  at  11:29 PM

Don’t leave out the worst fear of Conservative Limbag Oriley Beck types:

Empathy!  Shame! Remorse!  If they possessed those attributes even in minute quantities, they’d die.

Comment #85: Kwillow  on  06/03  at  11:33 PM

Comment #11: shah8 on 06/03 at 10:14 AM:

Not to mention that there is a high probability of a catastrophic hurricane season on the scale of 2005, which will add more spills and prevent repairs on this one.

It’s true that there are several reasons to expect an active, or even a hyper active hurricane season this year, (primarily record ocean warmth and no El Nino, see Dr. Jeff Masters’ articles on the NOAA and CSU forecasts here and here), but a season as active as 2005 is extremely unlikely for several reasons.
(0) The activity of 2005 was nearly 3 times that of an average season, and had 7 more tropical and subtropical storms than the previous record (28 compared to 21). To get an idea of how far outside anything in recorded history the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season really was, read this retrospective on the many records set during the season. Here is a quote:

How can one summarize this unbelievable hurricane season? I strongly believe that this was a once-in-a-lifetime hurricane season. To have 26 [1] named storms, 13 hurricanes, and three of the six strongest hurricanes of all time in one year so greatly exceeds our meteorological understanding of what is possible, that I believe that was a once in 500 years kind of season.

[1] Footnote: Jeff originally wrote the article on December 1st, the day after the normal end of the hurricane season. But Hurricane Epsilon remained active 5.5 days into December, and then TS Zeta formed at the end of December, bringing the total to 27. Then, a 28th storm was discovered in the reanalysis.
(1) Surface pressure. Hurricanes form more readily in large areas of low pressure. In 2005, large persistent regions of low pressure developed over the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico. This is highly unusual, and contributed strongly the amazing activity of that season. There is no sign of that happening this year.
(2) The Bermuda - Azores ridge is not extending into the US. The paths taken by hurricanes in the Atlantic are strongly affected by a persistent ridge of high pressure in the middle of the North Atlantic known as the Bermuda - Azores high. Usually, most Atlantic hurricanes curve around the southwest side of this ridge of high pressure. During 2005, it extended unusually far to the west, onto the eastern coast of the US. This caused hurricanes to travel farther west (before re-curving to the north) than they normally do. Further westward travel brought a higher than normal portion of tropical storms into the very warm waters of the Caribbean and the Gulf, enabling them to last longer and grow stronger. Also, it meant that when they did re-curve north, they were far enough west that they almost always hit something. 
(3) No sign of persistent strong anti-cyclones in the upper troposphere. 2005 featured an unusually high number of strong anti-cyclones in the upper troposphere. These anti-cyclones help draw air upward, and thus make conditions more favorable for hurricane formation and intensification. There’s no sign of that happening this year.
It’s possible that any of these conditions could change, but it’s very unlikely for all of them to become as favorable as they were in 2005.

Comment #86: llewelly  on  06/03  at  11:34 PM

MikeEss, Keith hasn’t said anything supporting the rape-and-pillage mentality of many businesses. His original claim was ‘there are some crazy environmentalists, which for several reasons tend to be given a pass be folks who already agree with their conclusions, and those crazies taint the entire movement for people who don’t already agree with their conclusions’. That doesn’t seem like a terribly controversial statement - he wasn’t applying the ‘crazy’ label to anything said here, and given your knee-jerk reaction to his post, I’d say he’s got a point about ‘no enemy on the left’ as a mentality to be fought against.

Whether his firm is good or bad doesn’t really matter wrt that point, although given what he’s said, it doesn’t sound like he actually works for any of the businesses that want to use the land, giving him at least some claim to impartiality (I am exceedingly lazy on the google front, though, so i’m just surmising from his posts).

Comment #87: jalmondale  on  06/03  at  11:42 PM

This area represents roughly 1/5th of the Canadian landmass ...

That would be Nunavat, for those who haven’t heard the song by Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie.

Comment #88: llewelly  on  06/03  at  11:57 PM

Er. Nunavut.

Comment #89: llewelly  on  06/03  at  11:57 PM

Xeranar—a very close friend of mine was raised in a white-eyeballed evangelical fundie environment. He told me that they actually instructed the children Not To Worry About Dying Because The World Was Going To End Soon And We’ll All Be Raptured Up LONG Before You Get Old.

I leave for the day to go out and get some much needed fresh air and I come back to this huge thread.  It was fun reading.  I remember back in my undergrad days I had a few uber-conservative friends who insisted on telling me about the rapture.  I pointed out being catholic means there is no rapture.  There is an end of days but that isn’t in my lifetime nor should it expected to be.  We need to take care of what we have.  They started to agree with me eventually if only for the reality was nobody wants to be wrong and it was better to hedge your bets. 

KeithM & the others had an interesting conversation I want to interject into.  Natural Resources are a great way for the natives to get wealth but without me pulling out the actual examples while the natives get rich it further wrecks the land usually.  Now understandable we all need to live but natural resources are something we should be considering more precious than most other things.  Course in the case of fishing and commerce, if it is low impact or a fairly balanced renewable approach I am all for it. 

I can see where KeithM was coming from with people griping about how we should forgo advancement of society to protect a forest for hikers.  Now I am taking a more generalized approach but from what urban renewal papers I have seen in recent years it is probably more productive for people to have green areas wedged into city blocks and stretches of under-populated housing than a massive forest hours away from any major population center.  But it doesn’t mean the forest is free-for-all land grab for industry. 

There is balance needed in everything.  Most environmentalists are completely in the mainstream in wanting clean water and air which is the issue that the right-wing has no understanding of.  They don’t care about the air or water.  They’ll move farther away from industrial zones and drive another hour into work.  As long as they don’t think it will effect them or effect them in the long term they don’t care.  Global warming is already past critical mass and will eventually yield for my grandchildren a nearly unlivable earth but we’ll survive most likely.  But by then environmentalism will have to become the center stage. 

PS: The technology fairy has already saved our behinds a few times.  I don’t bank on it, but I hope it saves us again.

Comment #90: Xeranar  on  06/03  at  11:58 PM

I work simultaneously on EPA and Industry grant money that is pooled for an independent research foundation - but while they work with us to set our research agenda, they don’t get to determine what the research findings are or change them or run our programs.  That is, I would say, a bit more toward neutral than what you are about (although it can sometimes be quite uncomfortable).

The reason I may seem to be a bit more hostile toward environmentalists is precisely because of who I work for.  When your employers are basically called bloodthirsty savages by one of the more notable environmental voices in the world, when you see people cheerfully going on about how wonderful and pristine the land is and you get the impression they’d prefer the local population act like theme park employees in their furs (but not actually kill anything to get those furs) and such for the amusement of tourists and not do things like try to earn money for their families and give their children a future, when engaging in normal, traditional meal gets called “bloodlust” and “bizarre” and “disgusting” by environmentalists and European government environmental officials, you’ll get a bit pissed off after a while too.

My natural inclination is very much toward environmentalism, but my career hasn’t given me the luxury of being able to afford black and white views of the world, one way or the other.  On any given day I could be dealing with a company asking for advice on how to deal with questionable complaints originating from a community, with a community asking I do something about a company they don’t consider to have told them enough about what they’re doing, working in cooperation with government to update standards, or fighting against government when it comes to new regulations that are absurdly impossible to meet that create ridiculous difficulties to industry.  I’ve provided information to one environmental group that was looking at promoting mining as an option for people acting as hunting guides, and gone after another that promotes misinformation.  I’ve seen the good and the bad from both “sides”, if one will.

Comment #91: KeithM  on  06/04  at  12:02 AM

Comment 86:

Firstly, 2005 had many purely temperature differential storms in the N Atlantic.  We can have fewer named storms and have just as high an ACE.

Second, as far as I am aware, the air pressures are as low, or forcasted by the ECWM (Euro) to be so, as 2005.

Third, the Bermuda Azores ridges weren’t *that* significant, and they didn’t really extend through the atlantic.  There was a *low (SE)* and *soft* Bermuda high that was parked near the US, such that storms that formed *near* the US did not recurve, but headed into the Gulf.

Next, strong and persistent anti-cyclones are feature that happens during hurricane season, it’s not something we can tell is going to happen or not at this point.  Same with the exact location of the Azores and Bermuda highs.  We *can* get lucky, and have a year like 1995 where all the storm went up through the space between the two high and even in 1995, you still had Opal and Luis, with other storms that could have been much worse.

I think it’s very important to emphasis that there are literally zero negatives wrt to this hurricane season.  The *only* things that can really help is either a persistent offshore trough happens (which stops cape verdes (like Ivan or Floyd) storms from hitting the US, but helps in Wilma-type storms) or a strong La Nina develops, which only *caps* the storms to around 15.

This is just not likely to be not a horrific year.

Really.

Comment #92: shah8  on  06/04  at  12:09 AM

THE ANGEL. Really, your people ought to know better than to shoot at an angel.

MAYA. Are you an angel?

THE ANGEL. Well, what do you suppose I am?

VASHTI. Of course he is an angel. Look at his wings.

THE ANGEL. Attention, please! Have you not heard the trumpet? This is the Judgment Day.

ALL THE REST. The what???!!!

THE ANGEL. The Judgment Day. The Day of Judgment.

SIR CHARLES. Well I’ll be damned!

THE ANGEL. Very possibly.

HYERING. Do you mean that the Pitcairn Islanders were right after all?!

THE ANGEL. Yes. You are all now under judgment, in common with the rest of the English speaking peoples. Dont gape at me as if you had never seen an angel before.

PROLA. But we never have.

THE ANGEL [relaxing] True. Ha ha ha! Well, you thoroughly understand, dont you, that your records are now being looked into with a view to deciding whether you are worth your salt or not.

PRA. And suppose it is decided that we are not worth our salt?

THE ANGEL [reassuring them in a pleasantly offhanded manner] Then you will simply disappear: that is all. You will no longer exist. Dont let me keep you all standing. Sit down if you like. Never mind me: sitting and standing are all alike to an angel. However— [he sits down on the parapet of the well].

They sit as before, the four superchildren enshrining themselves as usual.

The telephone rings. Hyering rises and takes it.

HYERING [to the angel] Excuse me. [To the telephone] Yes? Hyering speaking . . . Somebody what? . . . Oh! somebody fooling on the wireless. Well, theyre not fooling: an angel has just landed here to tell us the same thing. . . . An angel. A for arrowroot, N for nitrogen, G for—thats it: an angel. . . . Well, after all, the Judgment Day had to come some day, hadnt it? Why not this day as well as another? . . . I’ll ask the angel about it and ring you later. Goodbye. [He rings off]. Look here, angel. The wireless has been on all over Europe. London reports the Judgment Day in full swing; but Paris knows nothing about it; Hilversum knows nothing about it; Berlin, Rome, Madrid, and Geneva know nothing about it; and Moscow says the British bourgeoisie has been driven mad by its superstitions. How do you account for that? If it is the Judgment Day in England it must be the Judgment Day everywhere.

THE ANGEL. Why?

(cont)

Comment #93: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/04  at  12:25 AM

And when idiots like Limbaugh and Palin blame environmentalists for this by ‘forcing’ oil companies offshore, I shake my head at their appalling ignorance of geology and the workings of the Market they so slavishly idolize.

As much as it pains me to say it, they’re not necessarily wrong.

Industry will go where it’s cheapest and easiest to work, and working in shallow water is cheaper and easier than working in deep water.  The restrictions on offshore drilling in much of the US has shifted it to the deepwater Gulf.  Now, would this have happened anyway given the amount of the resource in the Gulf as opposed to what may or may not lie off California or Florida or wherever?  Hard to say, and unlike what Limbaugh and Caribou Barbie say, environmental regulations are a requirement of doing business because they force companies into taking account of the externalities that could otherwise brush off.

Maybe the cost-benefit analysis would have moved companies into the Gulf regardless of any prohibitions against drilling in other areas.  Maybe it was the prohibitions.  Just like they can’t say it was, we can’t say it wasn’t.  The only answer really is we don’t know, and quite honestly, it doesn’t matter one way or the other.  Environmentalists didn’t cause BP to cheap out on their testing (as it seems to be the case), they didn’t cause the installation of improperly tested hardware, they didn’t make insufficient plans for a foreseeable worst-case situation, and they didn’t drive companies into an environment that, in hidsight, they weren’t ready for.

Comment #94: KeithM  on  06/04  at  12:26 AM

HYERING [sitting down] Well, it stands to reason.

THE ANGEL. Does it? Would it be reasonable to try cases in hundreds of different lands and languages and creeds and colors on the same day in the same place? Of course not. The whole business will last longer than what you call a year. We gave the English speaking folk the first turn in a compliment to one of your big guns—a dean—name of Inge, I think. I announced it to him last night in a dream, and asked him whether the English would appreciate the compliment. He said he thought they would prefer to put it off as long as possible, but that they needed it badly and he was ready. The other languages will follow. The United States of America will be tried tomorrow, Australasia next day, Scotland next, then Ireland—

LADY FARWATERS. But excuse me: they do not speak different languages.

THE ANGEL. They sound different to us.

SIR CHARLES. I wonder how they are taking it in England.

THE ANGEL. I am afraid most of them are incapable of understanding the ways of heaven. They go motoring or golfing on Sundays instead of going to church; and they never open a Bible. When you mention Adam and Eve, or Cain and Abel, to say nothing of the Day of Judgment, they dont know what you are talking about. The others— the pious ones—think we have come to dig up all the skeletons and put them through one of their shocking criminal trials. They actually expect us to make angels of them for ever and ever.

MRS HYERING. See here, angel. This isnt a proper sort of Judgment Day. It’s a fine day. It’s like Bank Holiday.

THE ANGEL. And pray why should the Day of Judgment not be a fine day?

MRS HYERING. Well, it’s hardly what we were led to expect, you know.

JANGA. “The heavens shall pass away with a great noise.”

KANCHIN. “The elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

JANGA. “The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.”

VASHTI. The stars are fixed in their courses. They have not fallen to the earth.

MAYA. The heavens are silent. Where are the seven thunders?

VASHTI. The seven vials full of the wrath of God?

JANGA. The four horses?

KANCHIN. The two witnesses?

THE ANGEL. My good people, if you want these things you must provide them for yourselves. If you want a great noise, you have your cannons. If you want a fervent heat to burn up the earth you have your high explosives. If you want vials of wrath to rain down on you, they are ready in your arsenals, full of poison gases. Some years ago you had them all in full play, burning up the earth and spreading death, famine, and pestilence. But the spring came and created life faster than you could destroy it. The birds sang over your trenches; and their promise of summer was fulfilled. The sun that shone undisturbed on your pitiful Day of Wrath shines today over Heaven’s Day of Judgment. It will continue to light us and warm us; and there will be no noise nor wrath nor fire nor thunder nor destruction nor plagues nor terrors of any sort. I am afraid you will find it very dull.

LADY FARWATERS [politely] Not at all. Pray dont think that.

MRS HYERING. Well, a little good manners never does any harm; but I tell you straight, Mister Angel, I cant feel as if there was anything particular happening, in spite of you and your wings. Ive only just had my tea; and I cant feel a bit serious without any preparation or even an organ playing.

THE ANGEL. You will feel serious enough presently when things begin to happen.

MRS HYERING. Yes; but what things?

THE ANGEL. What was foretold to you. “His angels shall gather together his elect. Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill. The one shall be taken and the other left.”

MRS HYERING. But which? Thats what I want to know.

PROLA. There is nothing new in this taking of the one and leaving the other: natural death has always been doing it.

THE ANGEL. Natural death does it senselessly, like a blind child throwing stones. We angels are executing a judgment. The lives which have no use, no meaning, no purpose, will fade out. You will have to justify your existence or perish. Only the elect shall survive.

MRS HYERING. But where does the end of the world come in?

THE ANGEL. The Day of Judgment is not the end of the world, but the end of its childhood and the beginning of its responsible maturity. So now you know; and my business with you is ended. [He rises]. Is there any way of getting out on the roof of this house?

The Simpleton of the Unexpected Isles

Comment #95: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/04  at  12:27 AM

They must be excited that the Rapture’s right around the corner!”
Comment #4: Mighty Ponygirl on 06/03 at 09:43 AM

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you (warning:  do not operate heavy machinery while under the influence):


“THERE ARE APP. 10,285 PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE AND EVERY ONE UP TO THIS TIME HAS COME TRUE WITHOUT ONE SINGLE EXCEPTION?”
“The Soon Coming Climax
Proof The Bible Is True”
“WE ARE NOW IN THE LATTER DAYS OF THE END TIMES
SALVATION”
“WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? THE RAPTURE AND TRIBULATION”

http://airshipworld.blogpsot.com/

Comment #96: smartalek  on  06/04  at  02:13 AM

my dad was listening when he tried to cast front-loading washers as a greenie communist islamist plot

*headdesk*

is there nothing at all, no mater how capitalist and innovative, that these people won’t hate on just because?

Comment #97: jadehawk  on  06/04  at  05:36 AM

“The problem that comes up with many environmentalists in general is the “No enemies on left” (or right, pick your side) thinking that often goes on with it.  Some environmentalists can spout complete and total bullshit, but because other people might agree with the ultimate goal, they overlook it and write it off as someone being a bit too excited, or some other excuse.  And if someone corrects or questions the bullshit, the reaction ranges from total dismissal to accusations of being a pawn of industry.”

This view is bad thinking, but the world would be better in the U.S. Democratic Party would practice it more. It’s generally good politics.

“When the ecosystems are strained and people don’t have enough to eat, it won’t be just those at the bottom of the heap suffering - guillotines or their modern equivalents will be making a comeback.  And, come to think of it, every person in the West is probably in the fat French aristocracy class when the global community is considered.”

Uh, Piator, didn’t a lot of ordinary Frenchmen end up dying in the Napoleon’s wars?

Comment #98: witless chum  on  06/04  at  10:34 AM

“Uh, Piator, didn’t a lot of ordinary Frenchmen end up dying in the Napoleon’s wars?”

...not that I’m Piator, but yes, there were. 

But the question is whether the sins of the French Revolution would have inevitably lead to some strongman taking over and making himself dictator? (...whether that was Napoleon or or someone else…) 

Or could the French Revolution have turned out differently (as a mathematically chaotic situation drastically affected by slight changes in initial values), with the rise of democracy snuffing out the possibility of a military takeover? 

Interesting questions, IMHO…

Comment #99: MikeEss  on  06/04  at  11:40 AM

Comment #92: shah8 on 06/03 at 10:09 PM:

Firstly, 2005 had many purely temperature differential storms in the N Atlantic.  We can have fewer named storms and have just as high an ACE.

That’s possible, but it’s not terribly likely; it’s happened twice (1950 and 1893).

There was a *low (SE)* and *soft* Bermuda high that was parked near the US, such that storms that formed *near* the US did not recurve, but headed into the Gulf.

And after they headed into the Gulf, they mostly turned turned north, like Katrina, Rita, and some others. That’s called “recurving”. Others were farther south, and so headed into the Caribbean before turning north, like Dennis and Emily. Again, that is also “recurving”. Also, the “*low (SE)* and *soft* Bermuda high” was important because even though it wasn’t strong in terms of absolute pressure, it was strong relative to the unusually low pressures in the Gulf and the Caribbean. It’s the gradients, which are the result of relative pressures which guide the storms.

Next, strong and persistent anti-cyclones are feature that happens during hurricane season, it’s not something we can tell is going to happen or not at this point.  Same with the exact location of the Azores and Bermuda highs

It’s true that neither is predictable more than 7-14 days in advance (at best), but they are also both rare, and therefor they are unlikely.

This is just not likely to be not a horrific year.

It’s quite possible to have a horrific year that is not on active the scale of 2005. See for example 1992 (quite inactive, except for Andrew) or 1998 (hyperactive, and featuring the 2nd deadliest hurricane in the recorded history of the Atlantic, but not as active as 2005).

Comment #100: llewelly  on  06/04  at  01:44 PM

Uh, Piator, didn’t a lot of ordinary Frenchmen end up dying in the Napoleon’s wars?

Oh yes, but those wars were afterthe Revolution.

The point being that those at the top thought they were isolated from the sufferings afflicting the poorer in their society, just like today.  They proved to be dramatically wrong.

Comment #101: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/04  at  03:09 PM

Now I’m wondering if the best way to understand humanity’s place in the biosphere really is to assume we are nothing more than the basest parasites.  We don’t even get to claim a symbiotic relationship — with us it’s all take and no give…

Raccoons, rats, and pigeons beg to differ!

Comment #102: Tree  on  06/04  at  03:45 PM
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