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Another scary aspect of the mainstreaming of global warming denialism

This thread yesterday brought up something else about the increasing sway global warming denialism has over the public at large, something I’ve been kicking around in my head for awhile.  And it’s that at its base, global warming denialism is a conspiracy theory.  Yep, just like birtherism, 9/11 truther crap, and the belief that NASA didn’t really put a man on the moon.  And just in case this wasn’t already obvious, some of the wingnuts that were bugging me on Twitter last night made it clear that they think the scientists publishing the evidence for all this are fudging their data. Yep, they even went as far to claim that all 928 studies collected on global warming—-of which not one went against the consensus that warming is real and likely man-made—-are wrong.

See, from where I sit, there’s no way to believe that global warming isn’t real unless you think a) it’s a hoax and b) one that’s perpetrated on an epic scale.  If you look at 928 studies on global warming, all of which run against your predetermined conclusion, then you either have to change your mind and accept reality, or you have to believe that everyone involved is colluding with a giant hoax. 

That’s a lot of co-conspirators.  If you take into consideration all the scientists doing the research and everyone who looks it over in a direct professional capacity, that means you have literally thousands of conspirators.  But if you incorporate everyone who uses this research to promote policy—-including pundits, activists, and politicians—-the conspiracy literally incorporates millions of people.  That’s a lot of discipline that the co-conspirators have!  You’d think one of us would drink too much and let the secret out one of these days, but that would require an understanding of statistical likelihood, and let’s face it, global warming denialists wear their scientific illiteracy as a badge of honor.

But what I really don’t understand about this conspiracy theory is not just how you can be willing to believe that millions of people are colluding in this with little to no leaking of the plan, but what our motivations supposedly are.  I guess the idea is that we’re in this to destroy capitalism.  But why we would want to do that is never really explained.  A lot of us criticize capitalism, but that’s because of its effects.  For instance, we criticize capitalism because it rewards polluting behavior, and we’re against pollution because it’s bad for our health and contributes to global warming.  But according to denialists, pollution is only a made-up problem that was made up to destroy capitalism, which we hate because of something that we know isn’t real (pollution), and god, do you have a headache yet?  Because I do. 

I’m also perplexed by the idea that reining in fossil fuel usage itself would be the end of capitalism.  You’d think, if the millions of supposed conspirators in this whole thing were out to destroy capitalism, we’d take a less circuitous route than environmentalism.  For one thing, there’s capitalists who make money off environmentalism, often with the help of the supposed conspirators, who encourage R&D and sales of green technology.  You’d think we’d use our magnificent skills at organizing and maintaining secrecy to arrange a revolution, which would be easier to pull off with our numbers than fighting global warming is turning out to be. 

But above all, I’m impressed that anyone can be dumb enough to think a conspiracy of this size could even hold together.  We have a lot of real life examples of people who are organized around massive social change but disguise their intentions due to political considerations, and by and large, they don’t do that great a job of holding their cards that close to their chests.  Take, for instance, the anti-choice movement.  I’d argue that they’re organized around the principle of restoring the legal enforcement of certain gender roles they believe strongly in, and that they intend not only to attack abortion rights, but limit contraception usage that also has helped liberate women.  They, however, would like to be seen as the champions of babies.  But I don’t really see that they do a really great job of concealing their real intentions.  On the contrary, they organize anti-contraception rallies, push for abstinence-only education, belong to churches that spread material around about wifely submission, and push to cut contraception funding every chance they get.  It’s because maintaining the levels of secrecy required to conceal an underlying agenda takes tight-knit organizing and heavy policing of members of the conspiracy.  And the anti-choice movement is, at best, a loose confederation. So they leak their true intentions, basically non-stop.

Not so with the supposed global warming “conspirators”.  Even their most deep secret communications that get outed demonstrate that they…..want to exert political influence to stop global warming, because they think global warming is bad.  The famous hacked emails, for instance, show basically that the “conspirators” want to stop global warming.  There was no talk of lying about it to overthrow our capitalist masters, which is the sort of thing you’d expect to see in private emails if that was actually the secret plan.  Even the most dedicated believers in this conspiracy theory think their smoking guns are evidence that environmentalists are extremely committed to the environment, which would incline thinking people to think that environmentalists are committed to the environment, just like they say they are, and aren’t actually involved in a grand conspiracy using the environment as cover.  In other words, the supposed conspirators, at the end of the day, are always shown to be desirous of action to stop global warming, which implies that they believe in it and aren’t—-contrary to vivid claims from conservatives—-involved in history’s most elaborate, extensive, well-organized conspiracy that involves millions of people who know the truth but are lying about it without ever leaking.  Even to each other.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:23 PM • (90) Comments

The conviction that the “scientists” are all corrupt, lying, and bought and paid for by a shadowy consortium of “greens” is sort of the insane mirror image of the years of right wing marketing of junk science on cancer, smoking, coal dust, etc…  To me it has the same flavor as the insistence that “special interest groups” like “women” are the equivalent of a special interest group like the fossil fuel corporations, or big pharma.  But even twenty years ago students, who would now be in their forties, were starting to talk about poor people, minorities, women, unions etc… as though they had the kind of money and political clout to oppose large capitalist combines.


aimai

Comment #1: aimai  on  03/12  at  08:12 PM

The conviction that the “scientists” are all corrupt, lying, and bought and paid for by a shadowy consortium of “greens” is sort of the insane mirror image of the years of right wing marketing of junk science on cancer, smoking, coal dust, etc…

Exactly. And the even more fun part of it is that the scientists are all in it to get rich, and take nice airplane rides to wonderful cities for conferences, etc.  But the poor, poor directors of companies like BP or Exxon/Mobil are not at all out to get rich and would never engage in anything dishonest to maintain and increase their wealth.

Comment #2: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/12  at  08:18 PM

People really, really love conspiracy theories, and once they’re accepted, they’re awfully hard to dislodge.  The conspiracy theory scratches that itch in our brain to understand things that’s as basic to our biology as the need for sex.  The world is a terribly chaotic place bounded by physical rules that we can barely enumerate let alone explain, governed by the actions of people whose motivations are foggy at best and whose reasoning often seems foreign.  As scary as conspiracy theories are, they’re better than not understanding.

It’s not enough to point out that conspiracy theories don’t make any sense.  They basically pop up from a need to incorporate a set of core assumptions with data that contradicts them.  A 9/11 truther may feel that the WTC attacks were too convenient to simply be a coincidence exploited by an opportunistic administration; a neo-Nazi might not be able to reconcile his sense of racial superiority with a number of Jews securing very public wealth and success; a birther might feel that there’s no the American people would’ve voluntarily elected a black liberal.

People aren’t going to be dissuaded from their conspiracy theories, but hopefully pointing out how ridiculous the theory is will dissuade observers who might be prone to displays of even-handedness, even when both sides are far from equal.

Comment #3: Carl Rennie  on  03/12  at  08:20 PM

Another thing that makes the “scientific conspiracy” idea absurd is that there are scientists who absolutely live to poke holes in their fellows’ theories via peer review.

Comment #4: damnedyankee  on  03/12  at  08:24 PM

This all goes to show how demonic we all really are. Obviously, normal methods, like voting and legislating, are not enough to stop us. We must be waterboarded until we reveal the plot.

Comment #5: RickMassimo  on  03/12  at  08:24 PM

The magic of conspiracy theory is that it’s completely unfalsifiable. Not only is any success of the conspirators evidence for the theory, but so is any failure as well. In fact, anything at all will corroborate a properly held conspiracy theory because all facts can be assimilated to a sufficiently intricate web that is never examined for its contradictions. In order to fulfill the proper role of adversary, the conspirators must simultaneously be both incredibly devious and yet ready to crumble at the slightest opposition. The people who promote global warming denialism aren’t bothered by the vastly contradictory nature of their claims; if they were the kind of people who could be bothered by it, they wouldn’t be global warming deniers. More than anything, I suspect it’s a way to make yourself feel important in a world in which you (and, really, any of us individually) aren’t that important at all. Instead of being Joe or Jane Schmoe who has very little power in his or her everyday life, you can see yourself at the center of a vast conspiracy out to delude you and… well, do whatever it is that the conspirators are trying to do, I guess. It’s no different in this regard than when right wing Christians talk about how persecuted they are at every turn.

Comment #6: Jerry Vinokurov  on  03/12  at  08:30 PM

Sheesh, it’s just projection—conservatives are accusing us of doing the things they know they’re doing.  Why is outright malignity supposed to be our motivation?  Because of course it’s theirs.

Comment #7: Punditus Maximus  on  03/12  at  08:46 PM

That’s a lot of co-conspirators.  If you take into consideration all the scientists doing the research and everyone who looks it over in a direct professional capacity, that means you have literally thousands of conspirators.  But if you incorporate everyone who uses this research to promote policy—-including pundits, activists, and politicians—-the conspiracy literally incorporates millions of people.

I don’t think your average denialist realizes that there are more than, oh, maybe 10 or 20 scientists in the world. I really wish that were snark, but I think it’s true. They really DON’T know that each university may employ dozens or hundreds…they just think there’s some kind of Science Squad that does all the sciency shit, like villains in a Bond movie.

Comment #8: Well, what?  on  03/12  at  09:01 PM

The sane opposition to climate change is stating that we only have data in a relatively limited time-frame, and as such, the information is inconclusive.

That said, even in that case, considering the reduced availability of fossil fuels, it makes sense to work towards more renewable forms of energy. It’s literally a no-brainer. Even if the information, the data set we have to work with ends up being wrong, even though Issue A. wasn’t really a problem, at that point you’ve dealt with issues B, C and D. Yay…right?

But Climate Change deniers, they’re not motivated by issues or by policy. They’re motivated by pissing people off.

Comment #9: Karmakin  on  03/12  at  09:33 PM

I love the claim that somehow getting off of fossil fuels is “anti-capitalist.”  Before petroleum was used in mass, whale oil was used.  When whales became over-hunted, their oil became scarce.  Then petroleum was discovered and it led to more growth.  Now that petroleum is becoming scarcer due to peak oil, new resources need to be found.  There is nothing more plentiful than wind and solar, there’s an endless supply.  With an endless supply of clean energy that doesn’t lead to CO2 and global warming, this will lead to more growth and capitalism.  So the claim is stupid on its surface.

Comment #10: Albert Cirrus  on  03/12  at  09:38 PM

I will add that maybe the true conspirators are the deniers and they actually want the world to warm and their denial is a cover up.  It’s like Holocaust denial, most of those deniers are Nazis or Nazi sympathizers who would love for the Holocaust to happen again.  We see this every time a so-called denier denies global warming and then immediately turns around and says something like “more CO2 is good for plants” or “warming would be good for colder climates.”  Most deniers probably acknowledge global warming and their true motives for doing nothing about it might be scarier than we think.

Comment #11: Albert Cirrus  on  03/12  at  09:47 PM

“If you take into consideration all the scientists doing the research and everyone who looks it over in a direct professional capacity, that means you have literally thousands of conspirators.  But if you incorporate everyone who uses this research to promote policy—-including pundits, activists, and politicians—-the conspiracy literally incorporates millions of people.  That’s a lot of discipline that the co-conspirators have!  You’d think one of us would drink too much and let the secret out one of these days, but that would require an understanding of statistical likelihood, and let’s face it, global warming denialists wear their scientific illiteracy as a badge of honor.”

The Great Global Warming Conspiracy is successful because they learned a lot with the first Kennedy assassination, then the illegal election of Johnson instead of the People’s Candidate, Barry Goldwater, then the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Bobbie Kennedy, then setting up Nixon, faking the Moon Landings, the election of Carter, and then actively working against Republican plans for an American renewal when Ronald Reagan became president, and through the Bush Sr. presidency, and then stealing the election for Clinton (they were finally slowed down by Clinton’s sexual escapades), and then almost stealing the election for Gore (can’t remember who his opponent was), which was a feint to free AlGore to be able devote 100% effort toward destroying Capitalism, and then lastly there was the illegal election of The Kenyan Usurper, The Ayatollah of Socialism, to bring their evil plans to fruition.  And the Cigarette Smoking Man was behind all of it.  In fact, now he’s playing “Barack Obama” with a lot of makeup…

Just like serial killers, they get better with each victim…

I’d share more, but the chip the aliens implanted during my recent abduction and probing has stopped parts of my brain from working right…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  03/12  at  09:54 PM

Didn’t the UN end smallpox and aren’t they about to nail polio?

Why are conservatives against the institution that end smallpox?  Don’t answer that.

Comment #13: Punditus Maximus  on  03/12  at  10:03 PM

“At the very least the science is NOT settled.  Sorry nice try tho, the UN, sheeeesh who in their right mind believes those people?”

...I bet some of them are fat like Al Gore and Michael Moore, which totally eliminates the possibility they’re correct, amirite Knuttie?

I heard a guy say stuff that proved “Global Warming” is a hoax, and in fact we’re Global Cooling, and may need to burn even more oil and coal just to keep the temperature from getting too low!  He was on Coast to Coast, where they’re not afraid to speak the truth about libruls, so it’s gotta be true…

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  03/12  at  10:05 PM

The UN is the bogeyman now. Oh that’s just great and I love the there are now “big questions” about the methods which is another version of “some people say retarded shit we can’t be seen to say ourselves” only without saying anything. If there are big questions about the methods why don’t you tell everyone what those big questions are. I’d like to hear just one of them and I’d like to see you to try and defend it.

Comment #15: pharmakos  on  03/12  at  10:14 PM

But what I really don’t understand about this conspiracy theory is not just how you can be willing to believe that millions of people are colluding in this with little to no leaking of the plan, but what our motivations supposedly are.  I guess the idea is that we’re in this to destroy capitalism.  But why we would want to do that is never really explained.  A lot of us criticize capitalism, but that’s because of its effects.  For instance, we criticize capitalism because it rewards polluting behavior, and we’re against pollution because it’s bad for our health and contributes to global warming.  But according to denialists, pollution is only a made-up problem that was made up to destroy capitalism, which we hate because of something that we know isn’t real (pollution), and god, do you have a headache yet?  Because I do.

Capitalism allows the winners to win!  So those who oppose it are jealous losers.

Comment #16: oldfeminist  on  03/12  at  10:48 PM

With an endless supply of clean energy that doesn’t lead to CO2 and global warming, this will lead to more growth and capitalism.  So the claim is stupid on its surface.

Nobody can corner the market on sunlight & wind power thus it is anti-capitalism.  Atleast according those with all the money who want to see us buy our power from them.  Putting solar panels & small windmills on every building in America would still require independent power plants but it would lessen the burden so drastically that being an energy company would become unappealing.  This is the exact reason why the companies are funding these crazy researchers and trying to attack honest scientists for not making outrageous claims of absolute accuracy. 

Scientists by and large are over-honest.  They admit the 1% chance they are wrong too easily and other more willing to lie idiots will jump on it.  If Al Gore or some other potent character could simply create a squad of political scientists that would be willing to hammer these nuts back, then things would change.  Otherwise they’ll continue to push this crazy crap and further divide the rural/urban/suburban population and create more issues within society.

Comment #17: Xeranar  on  03/12  at  10:48 PM

I think that this really gets at the heart of it.  And, for what it’s worth, it seems to imply the cure is similar… treat denialists with the same sort of derision and mockery to which they are due.  Put them up on the shelf alongside Orly and the rest of the loons.  The very mention of the bizarre, deranged theories should bring snickering and head-shaking.  Ridicule is the best medicine for the ridiculous.

Comment #18: jamie d  on  03/12  at  11:01 PM

One thing to note: isn’t market theory premised on the idea that resources are scarce?  Like, it’s one of the first premises you learn in Econ 101 (granted, some of those premises are ridiculous, like people being perfectly rational and having perfect access to all information etc etc, but this one seems solid).  So then scientists come along, say “hey, our scarce supplies of petroleum are becoming scarcer, we should start looking for alternatives so we can maintain our lifestyles”, and they’re accused of… wanting to destroy our capitalist lifestyle?  I don’t get it.

Comment #19: themann1086  on  03/12  at  11:10 PM

Nobody can corner the market on sunlight & wind power thus it is anti-capitalism.  Atleast according those with all the money who want to see us buy our power from them.  Putting solar panels & small windmills on every building in America would still require independent power plants but it would lessen the burden so drastically that being an energy company would become unappealing.

Crap, no. Putting solar panels and small windmills on every building in america would require hundreds of billions of dollars worth of windmills and solar panels, most of them manufactured by a few large semiconductor and electromechanical-engineering companies. (I’m ignoring the incredible inefficiencies of doing it that way, just for the heck of it.) And you’d need the regular power companies to manage the distribution for backup and overflow, and then, because neither joe nor jane sixpack-of-sunshine is any good at semiannual inspection and bearing maintenance or at steeplejacking their way across a roof to clean solar panels, you’d have a maintenance contract with some other big energy company.

In practice, it will be worse than that, because only massive greasing of town councils and legislatures will be able to get you permits for the best wind or sun sites, so the big folks will be able to snap that up too. And put roadblocks in the way of projects they don’t like. Unless they’re incredibly self-destructive and stupid, which they are, but even so.

As for the conspiracy of scientists thing, it’s very hard for people who don’t do science to grasp that scientific arguments are different from arguments in other lines of work. First, the data thing. Second, having new data come in that invalidates your work doesn’t get you fired or blackballed (unless you did something hinky with your data). Compare that to so many arguments and power struggles in the business world, where being on the losing side gets you fired or exiled.

Comment #20: paul  on  03/12  at  11:13 PM

I don’t think they believe that environmentalists are only pretending to care about the environment…it’s more that they think that environmentalists invented global warming as an existential threat so that they could protect trees and cute animals from the mean capitalists.  (They are, after all, a bunch of hippie treehuggers, right?).  It’s still a ridiculous conspiracy theory…

Comment #21: Rachel  on  03/12  at  11:25 PM

I don’t think it’s a conspiracy

That’s good

but I wonder how many of those 928 studies relied on the flawed hockey stick graph from the UN panel.

Okay, so apparently you’re a transparent liar.  Or, extremely ignorant as to how the scientific method works.

I believe it’s common knowledge that their are now big questions to the methods used as well as the actual data itself to produce that graph.

You believe wrongly.  Cite please.

As well as the contributors backgrounds with the oft cited information from said panel.  We’ve been told for many moons now that the science was settled, nothing to see here we have your best interests at hand.

I don’t even know what that means.  Seriously, I know it’s English, but he might as well have been saying “The purple moon brigade destroyed them at the place” and it would make as much sense.

HA HA HA HA as if anything out of the UN would in any way be considered true or accurate.

Someone already brought up smallpox, but on an even more basic level the UN is in charge of very nuts and bolts international regulation like, oh, I don’t know, aviation.  Why do you want planes to run into each other?

At the very least the science is NOT settled.

Just saying it doesn’t make it true.  Show me the science that says it isn’t.

Sorry nice try tho, the UN, sheeeesh who in their right mind believes those people?

You answered your own question: those in their right minds.

Comment #22: Antigone  on  03/12  at  11:36 PM

See, I think the “Science is NOT settled” things are supposed to BE the cracks in the conspiracy Amanda is talking about. Those one or two scientists who are “speaking truth to power” are the ones who “strayed from the path” and couldn’t keep up the charade anymore.

They are mocked and marginalized, which shows you how powerful the conspiracy really is.

Or something like that.

Comment #23: LC  on  03/12  at  11:52 PM

Crap, no. Putting solar panels and small windmills on every building in america would require hundreds of billions of dollars worth of windmills and solar panels, most of them manufactured by a few large semiconductor and electromechanical-engineering companies. (I’m ignoring the incredible inefficiencies of doing it that way, just for the heck of it.)

Course it would cost billions of dollars but we also pay billions into the coffers of mining companies and energy companies to dig up finite resources and burn them into our atmosphere.  At least we can spend billions on something physical with lasting effects.  Currently there is little in the way of active patents on the original technology of solar panels and none left on windmills so getting new companies involved wouldn’t be as hard as it sounds.  If still only a handful wanted that business, then let them grow rich because eventually the demand will level off unlike the energy companies that will continue to scale cost with scarcity.

And you’d need the regular power companies to manage the distribution for backup and overflow, and then, because neither joe nor jane sixpack-of-sunshine is any good at semiannual inspection and bearing maintenance or at steeplejacking their way across a roof to clean solar panels, you’d have a maintenance contract with some other big energy company.

There are currently regulators and battery systems that can store the power.  The power companies have gotten regulations that force the energy to be sold to them.  Did you notice I stated how there would be a need for independent power stations still to cover the differences and down times?  Those could be a combination of nuclear/solar/wind storage and generation facilities. 

As for the clearing of panels, I have seen some current systems that can tilt relatively far to clear snow & leaves.  What would rise instead of the power company would be independent cleaning outfits which would further stimulate the economy.

Comment #24: Xeranar  on  03/12  at  11:58 PM

Driftglass said it so on his podcast today - money. Money, plus B.F. Skinner = conspiracy. Taibbi’s book from a few years back comparing the 9/11 Truthers movement and the current Birther wingnuts is case in point. Also, actually facing the massive lies we’ve all told ourselves about the underfunded, unregulated institutions we run, or at least the payments come due after the 30, 40 years we’ve let em go, have come calling. It’s George Carlin’s ghost I tells ya!

Comment #25: DupinTM  on  03/13  at  12:01 AM

Good work, Knute.  You brought up one of the big parts of the conspiracy theory that’s debunked in the links from this post.  How many millions of people do you think are part of the conspiracy, Mr. Science Guy?  Where did you get your degree in climate science?

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  12:09 AM

the conspiracy literally incorporates millions of people

I wrote a little snippet of something on my FB page about climate change.

In response, a FB “friend” “countered” with, “Well, millions of people believed the earth was flat.”

*unfriend* buh-bye.

There is just no way (for me, at least) to talk with people who spout crap like that. Amanda, he’s one of those folks you talk about who’s contrary for the sake of stirrin’ up the libruls. Ugh.

Comment #27: teac  on  03/13  at  12:25 AM

Speaking as someone who has yelled at numerous idiots online who deny either AGW or evolution (or the great combination of both), I’m confused on how no one else has brought up creationism as denialism’s slightly stupider brother. Both:
` require thinking that thousands of scientists are actively conspiring to hide evidence counter to our evil scheme of creating a false god.
` believe that the education system has bought into this falsehood.
` are based on a false hope that humans are special.
` are supported by the Bible.
` believe that science as a process has failed but that some valiant scientists are on the side of right
` are promoted by right-wing politicians and bloggers and the media.
` have corporate sponsorship. (...churches claim to be not-for-profit, but let’s not kid ourselves here)
` can usually not be convinced with facts.
` usually can’t be convinced with emotional appeals without causing them to be offended.
` usually can’t be convinced with righteous appeals since they are already holier-than-thou.

I could go on.
At the end of the day arguing with someone who denies that carbon dioxide emissions are a problem is like trying to convince someone that dinosaurs are actually real and didn’t live with humans. You feel dumber and they emerge victorious, having “defended” their “deep thoughts” from some commie pinko leftie.

Also I swear to the gods that I die a little each time I see a denialist link to http://wattsupwiththat.com/ as if it is a serious climate science website. The guy who edits it is a former tv weather guy and they’re using him as an unbiased source for climate science. That’s like getting a medical opinion from Noah Wyle.

Comment #28: artiofab  on  03/13  at  12:31 AM

Good point, artio.

For those who don’t know what the “hockey stick” thing Knute is talking about (don’t worry; even if you’ve never heard of it, he still knows less than you do—-Rush told him it’s “flawed”, and he believes it), here’s the mundane reality.

To summarize: The so-called “hockey stick” was a single studyconducted well after the evidence for global warming had been collected to the point where sincere people without an agenda were already convinced.  There’s legitimate-ish discussions of the methodology of this single historical examination.

The scientists who disputed the study have had their complaints addressed or discredited.  Quoted:

In short, M&M;[the men who objected to the “hockey stick”] raise many specific and technical objections, and climate scientists seem pretty unified in denying the charges. To my knowledge, the worst indictment from the climate science community came from a study led by Hans Von Storch that concluded M&M;was right about a particular criticism of methodology, but that correcting it did not change the study results.

Emphasis mine.

But even if you buy that this one study is too flawed to be admitted into the canon of climate science—-which is a stupid idea, from what I can, but whatever, be as nitpicky as possible if you want—-it doesn’t change the ugly facts that denialists want to deny.

The fact is, there are dozens of other temperature reconstructions. They tend to show more variability than the original hockey stick (their sticks are not as straight), but they all support the general conclusions the IPCC TAR presented in 2001: late 20th century warming is anomalous in the last one or two thousand years, and the 1990s were likely warmer than any other time in that period.

Emphasis again, because Knute needs help tying his shoes, much less reading dense stuff written by people smarter than him.

If you want to see all these studies graphed together, here you go.   It doesn’t make a nice hockey stick, but it does resemble a graph that goes up dramatically towards the end.  Every. Single. Time.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  01:07 AM

How come I haven’t got the memo about the global warming conspiracy!? I’ve even done work for some people working on clean energy tech (organic solar cells if y’all are interested) and so am at least tangentially involved on the science side of this stuff! So far as I could tell, everyone involved was really just interested in making cool products and getting some cash.

WORST. CONSPIRACY. EVER!

@23: Not to mention the UN runs, oh, the ITU, the UPU, the IMO, WHO, the IAEA, the IMF, the World Bank, the ILO, and on and on and on…

Even if he doesn’t care for aircraft, surely he likes the Internet, standardized international postal systems, standardized maritime law, the eradication of smallpox, knowing about Iranian nukes, global development, and so on?

(Well, since he’s a right-winger, maybe not…)

Comment #30: truth is life  on  03/13  at  01:32 AM

A tiny nit to pick with artiofab: the dinosaurs are still among us. I entice them into my yard with a bath,  assorted seeds for the more peaceful and sugar water for the most vicious.

Comment #31: bad Jim  on  03/13  at  01:37 AM

Color me a skeptic.  There is enough evidence to lead me to believe the science is not as settled as the scientific community claims.  That said, it would behoov us as a nation to pursue alternate forms of energy as the planet is not an inexaustable resource.  My skepticism lay in the fact that the scientific community’s reputation and credibility has been damaged severely, and only the most sychophantic would claim otherwise.  Also, it seems a bit arrogant to assume we know about thousands of years of climate based on 100 years of information gathering.  Until the methodology improves and scentists stop squelching dissent, there will be millions of skeptics.

Comment #32: Prankaplegic  on  03/13  at  01:45 AM

bad Jim, I know that, but I’m under the general impression that if someone thinks that the Earth is 10,000 years old, they also don’t think birds are dinosaurs.

Also saying non-avian dinosaurs is a more precise term but since when is being precise looked on by right-wingers? They gotta learn a little before we can expect them to understand phylogenetic taxonomy.

Comment #33: artiofab  on  03/13  at  01:46 AM

“There is enough evidence to lead me to believe the science is not as settled as the scientific community claims.”

What evidence. If you don’t have an actual citation at least try to describe what you mean instead of being ridiculously vague.

“My skepticism lay in the fact that the scientific community’s reputation and credibility has been damaged severely, and only the most sychophantic would claim otherwise.”

Some screwy emails do not rubbish the reputation of the entire scientific community.

“Also, it seems a bit arrogant to assume we know about thousands of years of climate based on 100 years of information gathering.”

So, you would be good to act with what, a thousand years of information gathering, 500 years?

“Until the methodology improves and scentists stop squelching dissent, there will be millions of skeptics.”

Describe the methodology and the problems you have with it just so we can see you aren’t talking out of your ass

Comment #34: pharmakos  on  03/13  at  01:56 AM

Pranka, just as a reminder, some palaeoclimatologists are able to “forecast” what the climate was like millions of years ago, based on methods that basically did not exist 40 years ago.

...also we didn’t know what a dinosaur was 200 years ago.

So… sure, climate scientists don’t know if it snowed in Alaska on November 3rd, 100000 BCE. But they have been collecting data, and it looks like it basically is warmer now than it has been for a while. Cue efforts to not continue driving the car off a cliff.

PS “squelching dissent”? Uhhh… maybe you didn’t notice but this blog entry was about how it’s irrational to believe in a conspiracy theory.

Comment #35: artiofab  on  03/13  at  01:57 AM

MAJeff @ 2 sez:
Exactly. And the even more fun part of it is that the scientists are all in it to get rich, and take nice airplane rides to wonderful cities for conferences, etc.  But the poor, poor directors of companies like BP or Exxon/Mobil are not at all out to get rich and would never engage in anything dishonest to maintain and increase their wealth.

I think someone basically already said this, but I believe you’re looking at it the wrong way. They absolutely believe Exxon/Mobil, BP, RJReynolds etc. are out to make money, and therefore the climate change people must be out to do the same. After all, all those companies hired “tame” scientists to come out with counterclaims, so obviously all scientists are amoral money-grubbing liars for whoever handed them their last paycheck, amirite?

Comment #36: JCfromNC  on  03/13  at  02:31 AM

No, sweetheart, we believe “the scientific community” when they say the science is settled.  We just don’t think that the UN is the Lumanti/ Jewish/ Mason/ Knights Templar organization that you seem to think it is.

You’re one of our resident wingnuts (though Dana is much smarter, can he weigh in instead?) so please answer the questions already asked:

1) What is the point/ motivation of this worldwide scientific conspiracy?
2) What studies do you disagree with the evidence of global warming, and why?
3) What contrary evidence do you have?
4) What, precisely, do you have against the UN?

Comment #37: Antigone  on  03/13  at  03:13 AM

No argument, artiofab. I just think it’s some kind of wonderful to think of birds as dinosaurs, or to realize that the atoms comprising a clump of dirt were forged in a supernova, that we are indeed stardust.

Comment #38: bad Jim  on  03/13  at  03:44 AM

themann1086:

Trying to explain the limitations of market theory to a free market fundamentalist is pointless. It’s like trying to explain the point of the Catholic Catechism to a Bible-thumper—they only care what they think the founding document says, not what it actually means.

There are accomplished biologists who have never read the Origin of Species. That’s guaranteed to cause a few your head a splode among people who think we treat Darwin as some sort of prophet.

Comment #39: BrianX  on  03/13  at  04:14 AM

“My skepticism lay in the fact that the scientific community’s reputation and credibility has been damaged severely, and only the most sychophantic would claim otherwise.”

Don’t you think you have that juuuuuust a little inside out? The AGW denialists have been explicitly gunning for the climate science community for years. The idea that the scientific community’s credibility is damaged comes only from reading the favorite quote mines of the denialists, while avoiding the context of what the scientists actually mean.

Comment #40: BrianX  on  03/13  at  04:25 AM

What we should be doing is running an ad on Beck’s show for a special fund guaranteed to make the denialists rich.

Said fund would buy up all the land in places like Tuvalu which is going dirt cheap because of the predictions of doom by the Great Global Warmiong Conspiracy.  Then, when this is shown to be false, you’ll be able to sell it back to, I dunno, hotels and resorts for its actual value.  The fund would offer long term weather insurance for much cheaper than those other insurance companies who actually buy into this climate change rubbish.

Best of all, people, you’ll be able to make a fortune while sticking it to those liberal tree-huggers!  Call us now on the number at the bottom of the screen…

Comment #41: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/13  at  04:36 AM

You believe what the UN says, “the science is settled”

this is a demonstration of what grolby was arguing on the earlier thread which is that right wingers seem to believe that scientists, like themselves, are worker drones in the employ of some larger organization/conspiracy that tells them what to say and what to report. It’s hard to know where to begin when the right is deluded on the very basics.

Comment #42: Tyro  on  03/13  at  09:10 AM

Thing is, knute, you’re not a skeptic. You’re a crank. There’s no amount of evidence that will lead you to accept the fact of AGW.  You’ll grasp at anything to declare you know better than every scientist working on this issue. Indeed, you’ve probably got some “theory” about sunspots or something that you know, because you read it on a comment thread, that scientists aren’t taking that seriously. And, because scientists obviously don’t make names for themselves by adding new equations to variables—particularly variables that would make a drastic addition/change to the state of knowledge, you’re left with the nonsense of a massive global conspiracy.

Just like the anti-vaxxers, the anti-choicers who shriek about breast cancer, and the low-lifers trying to claim Genesis is a science textbook.

Comment #43: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/13  at  09:20 AM

Where Knuterockne is coming from. The Rapturist movement is a lot of the problem of the resistance. Around 25% of America’s population they see the incoming end of the world promised by global warming to be a good thing to getting the Rapture, see it as important to stay on the “good side” when that day arrives to resist any and all global efforts for anything other than Christianity in case one is the Antichrist, are openly amenable to even the most laughable of conspiracy theories (taking over the International Academy of Science filled as it is with its Jesus-hating atheists would be child’s play for the OWG and the Antichrist), and in general willing to disbelieve in the idea of scarcity in general (when it runs out, I’ll be called home or God will make more for the deserving).

Slacktivist has been invaluable in deconstructing this movement and its real world effects as well and really is an invaluable source in general for scientists trying to figure the dumb-minded sheer resistance to everything seen in a large segment of their detractors.

And a quick echoing of Carl @3 and Well, What @ 8

Conspiracy theories are an easy way to feel smarter, less gullible, and thus more worthy than the majority of your fellow humans with very little effort. It is heavily crucial to people who tend to be part of movements prefaced on the idea that only a fraction of the current humans on the planet are worthy of full human status.

A conspiracy theory is also an easy way to get on “the right side” of something with actual effort. As all of us know, real activism for underprivileged groups is back-breaking, thankless, soul-draining work that often leaves you feeling alone and feeling small and insignificant. Conspiracy theories on the other hand, allow you to feel like you’re “fighting the good fight” without having to get into the soul-draining aspects because the victories are entirely yours to make up and can be easily fought be doing things like what you were already doing. Ha ha, I’m buying a penis-extending vehicle not because I’m desperate to matter in an indifferent universe, but because I’m striking a valuable blow against the global warming conspiracy’s desire to make me a giant pussy who can be invaded by big black french penises.

They are also emotionally toddlers. Things magically appear in stores with no effort, gas is just there in the pump and all technology just arrived naturally like clothes. They are intellectually incurious so they don’t really think about how science works or how things like supermarkets can even exist. To them Science is one big institution that occasionally sends a representative to the newspaper or the TV show host to change this season’s diet fad. Thinking of it as thousands upon thousands of various labs checking on each other, building on what works, eschewing what doesn’t, doing hundreds of tests that add up to “what Science knows” escapes them. They don’t see the bustling labs or the academic conferences, they see a headline that says “Scientists say X” and think it comes from the United Scientist Corporation.

One last note to the general morons, allow me to point out a quick important aspect to science to them as delicately I can. The fastest, most direct way to rocket to the top of the game in academic science is to disprove a commonly assumed notion. There is no method easier.

Finding the last piece to a cure for something? Yawn. Inventing some amazing application of an existing technology to get things like cellular phones or the internet? Boring. Discovering a principle that opens up an entire field of research previously unknown? Weak sauce.

None of these methods will catapult you to the top of regard in scientific circles faster or more authoritatively than being able to show genuine flaws in a commonly accepted notion and proposing a new argument or evidence that is able to explain how the accepted notion came to be accepted in the first place. This was how Einstein became huge. How Stephen Hawkins became the world’s icon of “smart guy”. Why Gregor Mendel’s name is practically mandatory in every biology class.

If some “truth speaker” was really able to topple AGW or evolution with their solid evidence of the conspiracy, he wouldn’t be “persecuted”, he’d be accepting the goddamn nobel prize.

And shoddy theories don’t really tend to last long. There needs to be a shit-ton of overwhelming evidence before anything even approaches the sort of universal consensus that global warming and evolution have. I’m talking about hundreds of independent experiments (each based on their own investigation and data-set as well as methodologies (not copy-pasting other people’s graphs, dear god was that argument stupid)).

But yeah, pointless to argue, it’s a conspiracy theory. The real question is how to deal with the theorists not convince them.

Comment #44: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  10:31 AM

It’s funny when wingnuts pretend to be intellectuals.

Comment #45: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  03/13  at  11:07 AM

How come I haven’t got the memo about the global warming conspiracy!?

That’s exactly what a conspiracist would say!

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  11:20 AM

corwin, where did you get your degree, and where do you do your research? I’m trying to figure out who the “scientists” are that are global warming denialists, and since you’ve presented yourself as a scientist who is in a place to tell us that we’re not intellectuals, I’m dying to know! Because my experience shows that Pandagon commenters are infinitely likelier to have graduate degrees, often in science, than our wingnut commenters. But I’m always up for other evidence.

So, where’d you get your PhD?  Where did you do your postdoc work?  Who are you doing climate research for now?

Interestingly, for all that you’ve decided we don’t know what we’re talking about when it comes to science, Pandagon has always been one of the big friends to Science Blogs.  And other blogs in the pro-science/pro-skepticism community.  I’m even speaking at a conference about science and skepticism! 

But of course, they’re all part of the big conspiracy, too, aren’t they corwin?  The gang of millions grows.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  11:23 AM

corwin, also, how is it that Knute’s random claims he hears from Rush Limbaugh are more intellectual than someone, I don’t know, digging up the story about this hockey stick from the scientists involved and experts who’ve actually kept track of the real issues?

Is black white in your world?  Up down?

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  11:25 AM

I’m not arguing that there is no GW.  I’m suggesting some reasons why it is not unreasonable for people to be skeptical. 

Please stop misusing the word “skeptic”.  Skeptics are people who support evidence and science.  The proper word for you is “denialist”.  Denialists engage in conspiracy theories to suggest established science or irrefutable history didn’t happen.

Your “questions” and “skepticism” belong in the same category as:

*People who claim vaccines cause autism
*People who claim the moon landing didn’t happen
*People who claim the Holocaust didn’t happen

You’re not “skeptics”.  Skeptics debunk these conspiracy theories.

What you are is a denialist.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  11:27 AM

corwin, I know you’re an intellectual giant and speaking down to lowly Pandagonians must be very difficult, not to mention painful, but has it occurred to you that it might not be that difficult to understand and accept Global Climate Change?

First off, when you can quite easily see the glaciers all over the planet disappearing in a span of a few years, when you can see the sea ice at the poles disappearing, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that there are things going wrong.

Aside from some real kooks who are one step removed from advocating for the Flat Earth theory, or pushing that The Flood was the real cause of all geologic formations we see today, there is incredibly solid understanding that Global Climate Change is occurring.  The remaining arguments surround whether humans are responsible for the changes, and whether the changes might accelerate because various carbon dioxide sinks could be triggered to unload.

As far as education goes, I’ve had a lot of math, a healthy dose of physics, chemistry, and biology, and a lot of systems analysis, data theory, and other hard science in order to get my degree in Computer Science, and I’ve been employed in the field for 28-years or thereabouts, so, appearances aside, I’m not exactly stupid.  And I know I’m far from unique in that respect in the Pandagonian community, among whom there are many hard science majors.  It’s also telling that you assume that only hard science majors could possibly understand the science behind Global Climate Change.  You assume all Liberal Arts majors took Basket Weaving or Interpretive Dance, when in reality the vast majority of them got an excellent, well-rounded education, and are perfectly capable of logical thought and understanding complex phenomena.  Many of them are probably more capable than you.

It’s not necessary to be a tragically afflicted genius in a wheelchair to understand an awful lot of things.  And having training in hard science does not automatically confer understanding either, nor does trolling liberal blogs…

Comment #50: MikeEss  on  03/13  at  11:53 AM

Libertarian, every point you’ve made is easily debunked here.  (Unfortunately, they also misuse the word “skeptic”, but are otherwise sound.)

But since you’re a believer in the conspiracy to push this so-called hoax, I want to know: Why?  Why do you think millions of scientists, politicians, pundits, and activists are involved in this elaborate theory?  How do we maintain our silence?  That’s a lot of people involved in the conspiracy!  How do you think we all have so much willpower? If we’re all involved in this plot to dupe the public about something we know is a hoax, how come no one has decided to vindicate themselves and come forward?  That’s a lot of people; surely someone is going to grow a conscience.  And yet!

Occam’s Razor would suggest it’s not actually a conspiracy.

But why do you think we’re conspiring?  I’m dying to know.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  11:55 AM

corwin @48 and Libertarian @51

Well on my various passages through the mandatory indoctrination training films required to become a part of the International Science Corporation responsible for all science, I stopped at the cubicle of the sentient blob of Al Gore’s fat that is responsible for manufacturing the hundreds of novel investigations, case studies, and micro/macro studies out of the whole cloth of the magical spice known as “the science”. His hypnotic Antichrist mind-control ray was very convincing as towards the merits of AGW and why I and others like me harbor an irrational and wholly unsupported belief based on smoke and mirrors.

Or.

I unlike you, am an actually intellectually curious individual who’s particular passion has led me to becoming a research scientist in academia in the act of gaining my advanced degrees. The course of such education and more importantly an intellectual curiosity that leads me to try and comprehend why things are, lead me to familiarize myself with a good number of the texts on PubMed, attend lectures synthesizing the field and attend several seminars on the subject, as well as being friends with or otherwise having close acquaintanceship with several people who are climate specialists or evolutionary biologists examining the effects of global warming on micro-populations.

As with all things in science, such as evolution, the evidence is pretty irrefutable, the micro supports the macro, the macros and the micros both agree, we can even start tracking exact shifts and extrapolating downstream negative effects.

One of my master’s level classes was taught by a researcher who has done several studies just looking at how global warming is affecting the Danish commercial fishing industries. Studies on the phylogenetics on eels show how the shifting of currents is leading long-migratory species to getting lost, shifting spawning times or egg hatching to suddenly privilege minority populations or deprivilege majority ones.

Several micro experiment which would be impossible without the support of the macro theory (shit be changing). Same as how I’d be wholly unable to do my research on mitochondrial variation’s effects on life expectancy or age-related diseases if evolution were “a conspiracy with no merit to it”).


I know, I know, there is no point in arguing with these people, but I just can’t help pointing to just how inane these arguments are. There is absolutely no comprehension about how science works or can work. It is literally shallow thinking, mostly because it is an attempt to look smart and important without having to actually think deeply about things and thus risk turning fag.

For their statements to have any veracity or meat to them, science could not actually operate, not in a way that gives them things they like like the iPod and microwavable dinners. There is a gross ignorance of how science operates that’s even worse than a layman would assume by the inanity of their arguments.

Yes, they really have less of a grasp of what they’re talking about than even you think.

Comment #52: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  12:06 PM

If all of your self-esteem comes from the idea that you live in the greatest country in the world, the idea that your great country has been contributing to a world crisis is pretty hard to swallow. If you listen to Rush Limbaugh he always uses some variation of this when he is talking about climate change “America is not part of the problem” he will usually bellow.  Once you buy into that idea, it has to be a conspiricy(sorry too lazy to spell check this morning) against your country.

Any time people try to make a gray area black and white this happens, as once you decide something is perfect, any critisism of it must be in bad faith, because by definition it is perfect.

Comment #53: John Rove  on  03/13  at  12:09 PM

corwin, I know you’re an intellectual giant and speaking down to lowly Pandagonians must be very difficult, not to mention painful

So painful, in fact, that it becomes impossible for him to write coherently when he comes here.

There are scientists and other researchers raising the alarm about climate change. You have lunatics like Sen Inhofe, the oil industry, people still pissed off at Al Gore, and preening contrarians arguing the other side. Gee, whom to believe? The denialist arguments just aren’t credible in the face of the evidence.

My rather charming, old timey British head of school encouraged a healthy skepticism of what was placed in front if us. What he also warned against in this same speech was a knee jerk cynicism that we now see manifesting itself as a nihilistic preening contrarianism. I have to go with the skeptical science and the value system that actually works—Human caused climate change is real. All the screeching and willful ignorance of reality and the way science works is not going to change that.

Comment #54: Tyro  on  03/13  at  12:11 PM

Another quick note on basic how science works stuff:

AGW shows it’s real strengths the same ways as most scientific theories that make it to that level. That is to say, intriguing micro experiment hints at macro problem or synthesis or large macro problem hints at giant level change, micro level effects. Micro level experiments start looking into this, examining small levels of detail, examining claims hinted at by macro level experiments or other micro level experiments, filling in details, disproving possible leads, examining the veracity of alternative theories of data from previous experiments.

With time these micro level experiments start adding up to the likelihood of macro level theories, some macro level experiments over long times start coming in and it is seen how they map to the picture of the micro theories, it bounces back and forth between micro and macro, each experiment trying to see the picture painted by everything else and adding their little pieces.

For something like AGW and evolution, this picture is startlingly clear with large experiments proceeding and succeeding that would be impossible if the baselines claimed by the denialists were true, with whole areas of research literally blocked off.

And it’s really hard for science to come to a consensus.

I work with mitochondria and aging, that’s my thing. There’s a really big component of that called the Reactive Oxygen Species Theory of Aging that posits that a lot of aging results from the mutagenic particles released from the electron transport chain in cell metabolism. Now you don’t need to know much about all of that, but this. Several big factors associated with drastic life-span changes in mice, nematodes, and fruit flies are downstream from factors related to either repairing ROS damages or preventing yield of ROS. It’s pretty clearly a big player or at least a contributing factor.

There is very little consensus on it even being a contributing factor. The issue is “hotly debated”. Why? Is it because ROS isn’t mutagenic or that there isn’t strong evidence surrounding it? Nope, it’s because there’s not enough closed doors around alternate theories and there’s not a neat enough experiment regarding in vivo or in vitro human cells yet.

The threshold of what “science” is willing to back up at the level of AGW or evolution only occurs if evidence is literally overwhelming, experiments start to be only possible if the conjecture is true and every alternative theory known to man has been tried and tested against it multiple times. Even then, it gets called a “theory”.

In short, the conspiracy they hint at, the ineptitude of science as a whole, is laughably improbable to anyone who knows how academic scientific research operates at its absolute root. If “science” is unifying in one voice to tell people something is real, that means something a hell of a lot more because of how science operates.

Comment #55: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  12:31 PM

We here at Evil Science Inc. are happy to see that we have fooled you with our elaborate cover story. Do you really think we use e-mail to communicate within the cabal? That is so 1998.

Comment #56: Col Bat Guano  on  03/13  at  12:42 PM

Liberterian: The problem is that all of these are built on bullshit.

Just go here for the concise summation: http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

The fact that you are willing to bash Al Gore for “lying”, yet side with people who YOU CLAIM TO KNOW are lying about the big snow dump for the sole reason that it’s psychologically effective is frankly, pitiful. There’s a reason none of us take you seriously as an intellectual.

Comment #57: Left_Wing_Fox  on  03/13  at  01:27 PM

pychologically, it’s hard to be concerned about “warming” when you’re shovelling out of 3 feet of snow.

Libertarian, outside of the fact that the religion of libertarianism forces it’s adherents to adopt certain rhetorical and political beliefs as a means of social signalling and for the purpose of gaining social acclaim (while being a non empirical system), the problem you have is that you have decided that you would rather side with dishonest liars because you find the psychological effect of such dishonesty admirable. A more rational reaction would be to acknowledge that the climate change denialists are dishonest and immoral and side with the empiricists. But that seems to conflict with your preening and nihilistic worldview.

Fundamentally speaking, I simply trust the process of science more than I trust libertarian fundamentalists, people who don’t understand how science works, and those with a decades long seething rage against Al Gore.

Comment #58: Tyro  on  03/13  at  01:39 PM

I notice the Libertarian skipped right past my careful statements about how science works and the multiple links about how everything he cited has been repeatedly debunked to instead concern troll about tone.

Oh me my noes, those meany old mean mean liberals use meany old words.

Okay, fine, I’m perfectly willing to take back any and all uses by me of the word denialist if you can explain how resistance to the idea isn’t rooted in conspiracy theories with at best a criminal misunderstanding of how science basically functions and which generally seems to believe “science” is a tiny cluster or hive-mind that shares each others raw data like news journalists share sources for news stories.

Furthermore, how it is reasonable for one side to have decades of overlapping and thorough academic research on the subject while the other has a series of poorly formed half conjectures (I mean, look at your list, that’s not a review paper, that’s a joke). That’s not a “reasonable source of doubt”, it may be an explanation of the ignorance, lack of intellectual curiosity, and scientific illiteracy exhibited by any who take that shit seriously, but it’s by no means a genuine intellectual resistance to decades of thorough research and scientific scrutiny.

Oh wait, sorry, forgot who I was talking to again. Ooh, yes, you are big strong intellectual man, you have worth and meaning in this world and your big bold brain means it is only right that you enjoy the sole fruits of modern society without ever having to think about other people. My tiny feeble female brain is intimidated by your brilliance and I must immediately encourage all my bicurious female friends to engage in a you-centric act of group sex.

Note to everyone else, a career in academic sciences is far more enjoyable than arguing with libertarian and rapturist morons on the internet makes it seem.

Comment #59: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  01:49 PM

4.  Lotta snow.  Ha.  As a scientific argument this is ... well, stupid.  But pychologically, it’s hard to be concerned about “warming” when you’re shovelling out of 3 feet of snow.  Meanwhile, every signficant weather and climate event of any kind brings warmists out blaming it on global warming.  Right?  So, a pox on both your houses.

Written in Feb 2008:

It’s not just hot air; climate change could also mean more snow

[...]

  Experts caution that there may be more winters like this, where snowfall has so far nearly doubled the norm. But that would be only until it gets too hot to snow, they added.

  “l n the simulations I’ve analyzed, you can get some quite big blizzards up until the year 2040,” said Raymond Pierrehumbert, professor of geophysics at the University of Chicago. “But between 2040 and 2080, it starts to get too warm to have much snow at all and it gradually sort of peters out.”

  Climatologists say snowfall is more difficult to predict than rain because it depends on a broader range of factors, such as atmospheric temperature and the la nina phenomenon in the Pacific Ocean. What they do agree on, however, is that warmer atmospheres can hold more precipitation.
  …
  But this season’s precipitation levels, combined with atypical temperature fluctuations, reflect what climate experts say will be some of the side effects of global warming. A study released last December by the group Environment Illinois suggests global warming will result in more extreme rain and snowfall as warmer temperatures speed up evaporation and allow clouds to hold more precipitation.

  “Higher precipitation is predicted, and unfortunately it’s supposed to come in extreme events,” said Dave Kraft, committee member at Climate Justice Chicago, a coalition of environmental groups hoping to change public perception of global warming. “Was this (season) it? Maybe it’s a sign, maybe it isn’t.”

In other words, Libertarian, you don’t actually bother to pay attention to whatthe science actually says, and when its forecasts come true, strengthening the validity of the science you make the wrong conclusion based on your own ignorance.

That is your problem in a nutshell, Libertarian - you are ignorant, you don’t care that you are ignorant, and you take pride in your ignorance.

Comment #60: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/13  at  02:03 PM

Libertarian-

Fine, okay, you’ve detailed scientific illiteracy, lack of intellectual curiosity, and media-savvy disinformation campaigns.

I can definitely see how such 1 and 2 of that list would lead to 3 developing a “growing skepticism about GW”.

It’s also absolutely useless to us here in the real world. The facts on the ground are what they are and no amount of hand-waving makes them otherwise. The same factors exist for the “debate” on evolution, but evolution is still true in the same ways and still under attack by the same dumb illiterate shits as with global warming.

Now, you may think you’re being cute by deliberately avoiding the subject, arguing tone and tactics while at the same time assuming a false equivalence, but you’re not as clever as you think you are.

These people aren’t educated nor are they wholly honest in their resistances, arising as they are not from genuine understanding, but responses from fear-mongering and personal issues. They are not equivalent, on-par or otherwise of intellectual equal footing with decades of overwhelming back-breaking scientific effort by a diverse and wide-ranging array of experts from multiple disciplines working together.

This is academic lecture on astrophysics versus “the sun has been blotted out by the dark circle, only by committing a sacrifice can we return ourselves to the world of light”. Scared, ill-informed, ignorant straw-clutching versus the science that is (not the ScienceCorp that right-wingers imagine science to be, 12 guys in a darkened room plotting giant conspiracies and taking over all research everywhere from easily centralized locations).

If you were arguing from honesty rather than a “my moderate dick is bigger than your liberal one” standpoint, this would be obvious from your conclusions as well. Evidence and reality is on one side, but rhetoric is on the other…

Which oddly enough would seem to be the subject of the original article that had all of you intellectually uncurious libertarians and rapturists aching to run to the fore and act like your casual glances at a Rush email make you better than some faggoty climate scientist spending decades on arctic boats to figure out what exactly was going on and how it will eventually effect your ignorant emotional toddler ass in the future.

I know, I know about the futility of it all. I’m a natural teacher, I can’t help it. Every time I see ignorance this blatant, I just feel the need to educate. If only there was a pill we could take, “Teacherex, for when you know you shouldn’t engage with the deliberately ignorant”.

Comment #61: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  02:14 PM

Years ago, Harry Stack Sullivan observed that anxiety functions like a blow to the head; that anxious people literally cannot think straight. I supect that the vast majority of those who deny global warming are among the anxious—anxious about their jobs and anxious about the loss of their beloved cars and trucks, because, frankly, our status as middle-class Americans hinges on the possession of our cars. Indeed, their is a huge psychic investment in our ability to drive whenever and wherever we please and a huge economic investment in it as well—suburbia, with its ‘lord of the realm’ fantasies and strip malls and supermarkets, is based on our car/truck culture.

So, Amanda, when you wonder if global warming deniers suspect us of wanting to destroy capitalism, that’s exactly what they suspect. They see the whole environmental movement as a political plot to squash the working class and small business (cf. spotted owl and snail darter) and enact some grim socialist (Stalinist) paradise.  No amount of arguing or facts to the contrary will convince the anxious otherwise.

But while we’re on the issue of denial, there seems to be quite a bit of denial on the environmentalist side of the equation of the limits imposed by the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Albert@10 asserts there’s an endless supply of sunlight and wind which he seems to believe we can harness for the asking.

Sorry! Not!

The problems with all these alleged technical solutions are two-fold. First, any vast program of renewable energy sources will require huge investments in fossil fuels all the way up and down the line, from mining the raw materials to manufacturing the components to erecting the structures to maintaining them. Second, in a world of increasingly scarce fossil fuels there will be tremendous resistance to allocating them to making this renewable energy paradise possible, not the least of which will be such concerns as ‘now, how will I get to my job?’ and ‘now, how will my supermarket shelves get stocked?’ Those are not inconsiderable questions.

themann@ 20, meanwhile, asks ‘isn’t market theory premised on the idea that resources are scarce?’

Again, Sorry! Not!

The whole so-called science of economics is premised on the theory that the economy is a thermodynamically closed system, unaffected by outside influences.  The whole theory of progress and economic growth depends on the possibility that endless expansion can grow into infinity. Debt/loans, after all, are premised on the belief that today’s burden will become easier to pay off/return interest in tomorrow’s larger economy. Throw resource constraints into that equation and it one day founders on the rocks, because then debts and loans become onerous drains on financial resources.

FYI, I have a BA in Chem and I am scarced shitless about the methane deposits in the polar region and the methane hydrates under the polar sea being outgassed into our world by global warming (cf Permian Extinction).

Comment #62: revrick  on  03/13  at  02:25 PM

PIATOR-

Pretty much. The main problem isn’t really the ignorance. Ignorance can be educated, dealt with. But we have a large mobilized aspect of the population who lack intellectual curiosity, that don’t care about why things are, only that they remain so with few to any changes or setbacks without them being involved in any way which they weren’t already.

And this same group are combining it with aggressive ignorance. Ignorance that takes pride in forming a tribal identity out of shared ignorance and angry resistance towards those who seek to educate or even help them regarding the “natural” systems they take for granted such as the climate, infrastructure, sewer systems, supermarket food supply, etc…

I suppose the only good thing is that this isn’t exactly new and why it seems so bad now might be the fact that the reality based community is winning in a lot of ways. “Because God says so” isn’t the argument winner it once was and “but they deserve to die” has fallen out of disservice. Even the rich have to generally hide the disdain for the poor which they used to take open pride in as a mark of their divine selection by right of blood and kings.

Now how do we deal with that and solve rather pressing issues becomes difficult, especially with a media more than willing to humor them and give them real power and the illusion of credibility? Not sure, but that’s part of why I went to Denmark for my master’s. To try and find out.

Comment #63: Cerberus  on  03/13  at  02:27 PM

Ugh, there, not their in line 5 and scared, not scarced in the third to last line.

Comment #64: revrick  on  03/13  at  02:29 PM

Libertarian’s denial of global warming is just a symptom of a greater denial—that the complexity of our world made possible by cheap fossil fuels does not demand an equally complex government to deal with many of the problems this complexity creates. For example, advances in medicine (complexity) creates a huge population of longer-lived, dependent elderly (complexity), so we create the complexities of Social Security and Medicare to deal with those complexities.

Complexity creates complexity which creates more complexity. It’s really that simple!

Comment #65: revrick  on  03/13  at  02:39 PM

Knute,

Okay, you don’t like the UN because of a few (legitimate) scandals.  So, does that mean you’re against the US government as well?  We have about just as many (more) scandals than those.  I mean, you’d be hard pressed to find any large organization that doesn’t.

Plus, I’d still like my first 4 questions answered.

Comment #66: Antigone  on  03/13  at  02:46 PM

an opinion piece in the WSJ

Oh, well, that’s a powerful argument.  Except the WSJ editorial page is, and has long been, made up of completely nutso right-wing propaganda.

::eye roll::

Comment #67: latts  on  03/13  at  02:49 PM

Oh, and by the way, I’d like to also point out that my liberal arts major had an awful damn lot of “hard” sciences in it.  Physics, biology, chemistry, geology, and most germane to this discussion, meteorology.  I think people are on extremely shaky ground to claim people here don’t have a solid science grounding right up to a good chunk of them focusing in the “hard” sciences.

Plus, it doesn’t take a genius to know carbon dioxide traps heat. It also doesn’t take a genius to look at ice sample data from the North Pole.  If you don’t have a back-ground in science, it’s still pretty commonsensical to go “Gee, when I breathe in air pollution, I start coughing and getting sick.  I bet it’s bad to breathe in air pollution”.  You don’t even have to “believe” in AGW to know that environmental protections are a good in and of themselves.

Comment #68: Antigone  on  03/13  at  02:55 PM

Libertarian #66:

Now why don’t you go back and see what the science community says about what those emails actually said? Or for that matter the truth about anything else you said? You yourself say you don’t have the scientific background to understand the science. Well, it’s not so hard to get it—they do have books on the subject that give you the rundown in a nutshell. Furthermore, every one—every one—of your arguments above is filtered through the assumption that climate scientists are liars and/or incompetent. You do realize that’s assuming your conclusion, right? Which is a major no-no in logic.

Comment #69: BrianX  on  03/13  at  03:01 PM

“Now why don’t you go back and see what the science community says about what those emails actually said? Or for that matter the truth about anything else you said?”

Oh no!  You can’t ask the science community because they’re all biased and stuff.

If you want a completely objective evaluation, better to talk to someone at a rally carrying a sign that says “Teabag the Democrats before they teabag us!”, who’s standing next to someone else carrying a sign that says “Keep the government out of my Medicare!”  Those are the kind of people whose well reasoned opinions can truly be trusted…

Comment #70: MikeEss  on  03/13  at  03:47 PM

Amanda must use the word denialist because she feels she must demonize those who disagree with her.

I just wrote a post explaining the difference between skepticism and denialism.  It’s true that denialism does a bang-up job at aping scientific inquiry, if you know nothing about science.  But at its heart, denying that the Holocaust really happened or that vaccines are a tremendous public health innovation—-or that global warming is real—-is about taking the evidence and denying it, using fallacies and rhetorical tricks to sow confusion.  But you have no interest in actual inquiry, or alternative explanations.  Just deny, deny, deny.  And hope that when the shit hits the fan, your natural life will be over.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  04:07 PM

Heh… I’m actually doing some work for the UN right now.  They’re mostly concerned with fighting tuberculosis and delivering anti-malaria netting to villages in Africa.  Eleanor Roosevelt would be appalled.

Comment #72: Shaenon  on  03/13  at  04:11 PM

It’s kinda nice to have these trolls here, because they so clearly demonstrate exactly the misconceptions and personality flaws that go along with denialism.

Hey, wait a minute… Maybe it is a huge conspiracy after all. Even denialists are in on it! I should have been tipped of as soon as someone used the phrase “opinion piece in the WSJ” in the same post as “reputable”.

Comment #73: paul  on  03/13  at  04:14 PM

Libertarian:

deliberately distorted data to support dire global warming scenarios and sought to block scholars with a different view from getting published.”

Dude, I totally get where you’re coming from.  It seems a bit too convenient that the anti global warming movement arose after the utter failure of socialism in the second half of the 20th century, and the inanity of the “no-logo” anti-globalization crowd in the 1990’s that fizzled out on its’ own.  And it’s true that the left seems to have latched onto it as a kind of icebreaking ship for the kind of social changes that they’d like to make.  Of course, there are dire consequences to getting serious about global warming which the Left doesn’t think about, such as leaving Africa in a state of poverty for another few centuries.  But that doesn’t stop them from latching onto dreams of “walkable cities” full of tiny apartments where all the races of the U.S. will be forced to live together in harmony and nobody will be mean anymore because mean people suck.

All of that doesn’t mean that there is no global warming.  There is, and it is probably caused by human activity.  If you don’t trust me, read John Derbyshire’s column from a few months back, titled “trust science.”  The gist is that it’s tempting to side with the contrarian, given that the most prominent scientists in history have been contrarians. But contrarians, while necessary to the scientific process, are in fact usually wrong. 
http://article.nationalreview.com/416158/trust-science/john-derbyshire

The relevant questions now are: 1. how bad will it get and 2. what do you do about it?  The answer to question 1 suggests answers to question 2.  For example, if climate change is going to cost the world $1 trillion in losses by 2050, then the maximum amount to be spent combating global warming is $1 trillion in 2010 dollars, or approximately $200 billion.  And it should be spent primarily on mitigation measures.  Anyway, that’s the kind of debate that libertarians should be engaging in.  By warming up to the conspiracy theorists, you’re ceding the real debate to the left, which will shape any solutions to fit their pre-established goals.

Comment #74: PeterZeroOne  on  03/13  at  04:46 PM

Chet, I have compared them to Holocaust denialists.  Also HIV denialists, anti-vaxxers, and other people who use similar tactics to try to sow confusion about established science and history.  Like Holocaust deniers, global warming deniers have a political agenda, as well.

I’m not trying to Godwin them, but you can’t really get a handle on the historical dangers of conspiracy theorists unless you are willing to look at the way that anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have manipulated politics.  Holocaust denialism creates real problems when it comes to having reasonable worldwide political conversations, especially about Israel.  It creates anger and confusion, and takes us further away from productive conversation.  Same with the conspiracy theories over global warming, which exist to shut down or at least severely retard, important discussions about what needs to happen to save the planet.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  05:14 PM

Why it’s weird to see P01 actually arguing that Global warming is real (Or, alternately, I’m still watching Alice in Wonderland), I have to quibble with two things.

1) Socialism is not a failure.  There are lots and lots of countries that are socialist in various ways (including the US, though I would say not enough).  There must be some different definition of “failure” than I’m using.

2) There’s more loses to consider than just what you can put a dollar amount on.  This is fundamentally where I think economists and libertarians get it wrong.  You can’t actually measure utils.

Comment #76: Antigone  on  03/13  at  06:42 PM

Antigone:

I think there’s two ways to parse “socialism is a failure”. One is that pure socialism, with the state wholly owning all capital, is a failure; we pretty much know this, and any such system that has worked (like China, albeit with massive human rights abuses) has evolved from a pure socialist system into something else. The other is that any form of government social program is problematic; that’s the windmill the teabaggers are tilting against, and there’s evidence in many countries in Europe that that form of mixed democratic socialism works beautifully.

Comment #77: BrianX  on  03/13  at  07:31 PM

Peter agrees global warming is real and that there’s a mysterious agenda “the left” is pushing under the guise of concern about global warming.  I still haven’t gotten a straight answer, so maybe you can tell me, Peter: what is our agenda?  You make it sound so shadowy, but most environmentalists I know just really like Earth.

Comment #78: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/13  at  07:36 PM

Also, to the computer geeks in this thread, I recommend you check out Eric S. Raymond’s blog if you haven’t (esr.ibiblio.org). If he ever was the intellect he wanted people to believe he was, he’s pretty much blown that off in favor of being a racist, homophobic wingnut and a full metal straitjacket conspiracy theorist when it comes to global warming (he has claimed that climate science is run by a leftover KGB psyops group), as well as an HIV denialist. (His article on rationalwiki.com has some choice quotes…)

Comment #79: BrianX  on  03/13  at  07:50 PM

Yeah, but I thought that what China and the USSR were (ostensibly) doing was called “communism”.  Maybe I’m misunderstanding something on a vocabulary level.

Comment #80: Antigone  on  03/13  at  07:58 PM

Antigone:

It’s a little more complex than that. Marx defined communism as a form of anarchy, where the state no longer existed. Communism as implemented in government form was a highly regimented, extreme form of socialism that was based on a centrally planned economy; in theory it was supposed to be a society of radical equality, but it was brought into being by force and thus favored dictatorial government (especially Stalin/Mao/Kim-style personality cults).

What it essentially comes down to is that socialism—especially but not exclusively in the Marxist mode—requires a high level of trust and strong accountability for its leadership, but also cannot rely on central planning for managing an economy.

Comment #81: BrianX  on  03/13  at  10:06 PM

With his hypothetical numbers, P01 is also pushing the “well, yes, it’s a problem but not the kind of problem that should be given priority over so many other things” line.  Typical estimates for losses due to global warming by midcentury range from 2% (very low and unlikely) to 20% (catastrophic). Even the low end of those estimates would be roughly $2.5 trillion a year, more than an order of magnitude greater than the number he tosses out.

Comment #82: paul  on  03/13  at  10:12 PM

2) There’s more loses to consider than just what you can put a dollar amount on.

Climate change is like Russian Roulette.  There’s a small but possible chance that it’s going to lead to the extinction of technological civilization.  As far as I’m concerned, reducing mankind’s future to a few million people scattered around the globe and living in the equivalent of pre-colonial African and Polynesian villages is effectively suicide.

Comment #83: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/14  at  08:04 PM

It couldn’t be clearer that denialists believe that global climate change is a hoax. I was driving from the Atlanta area home to Nashville today, and I was passed along the way by the GT Cruiser with a bumper sticker that said “Global Warming Is A Hoax.” Hmm.

The other bumper sticker on this car, by the way, said “No Hope in SOCIALISM.” Okay.

Comment #84: grolby  on  03/14  at  09:43 PM

I know, I know about the futility of it all. I’m a natural teacher, I can’t help it. Every time I see ignorance this blatant, I just feel the need to educate. If only there was a pill we could take, “Teacherex, for when you know you shouldn’t engage with the deliberately ignorant”.
Comment #68: Cerberus on 03/13 at 12:14 PM

Don’t stop, Cerberus.  For every unteachable out there, there are a dozen (or a hundred) who are pondering the arguments they make.  Answering them answers it for those who are misiniformed but geniuinely curious.

We need every kind of argument, from soft and sweet near-pandering to vitriolic mockery.

Comment #85: oldfeminist  on  03/15  at  02:49 PM

Sure, but you did so explicitly in the context of “how is climate denialism like other kinds of denialism?” The accusation here is that merely by using the word “denial” one is invoking the specter of Holocaust denial.

That makes no sense to me. There are many things besides the Holocaust that people deny. Climate change, for instance!

Comment #91: Chet

Shorter Chet:
“Words mean what I say they do,” Humpty Dumpty explained. “No more, and no less.”

Comment #86: cynickal  on  03/15  at  04:02 PM

In re: the last two comments, the greenbashers’ willingness to be offended by being compared to Holocaust deniers makes little sense. The Holocaust only killed, maybe, 12 million people, max, over about half a decade. Uncontrolled climate change might, if we’re unlucky, kill and cause misery for many more people than that for ...a hundred? Two hundred years? The rest of human civilization?

Of course one could argue that the Holocaust was an intentional killing of undesirable people, whereas climate change will just accidentally cause increased suffering for the Third World…

Comment #87: artiofab  on  03/15  at  09:22 PM

Conspiracy Theories are psychically powerful because they take our fear and our suffering and our feeling of abandonment and put a face on them. They are not quite religions because they do not posit a solution to these problems, but they do provide a kind of solace by incarnating our nebulous suffering.

Comment #88: atheist  on  03/16  at  11:23 AM

Chet: your point is well-taken. Some realities are too unpalatable for the general public to accept, and are therefore called crazy, even though they are pretty well-supported by evidence. I accept that there are real conspiracies, in government, in business, in war, in religion. I even accept that some of these conspiracies were wildly successful. So believe me, I understand your point.

But at the same time, what I sometimes have found in my winding travels through this thing called politics, or activism, is that some people have very strong sustained beliefs that appear to be impervious to evidential reasoning. For instance you can show these people evidence that government spending can in fact have a stimulating effect on a national economy, and they will only get more extreme in their claims that government programs caused the Great Depression. They can be very intelligent people, too.

After encountering this situation repeatedly, I have come to the conclusion that they are under the influence of a “conspiracy theory”. If you have a better word for it, then use that. My latest working hypothesis is that these “conspiracy theories” operate as a kind of reverse fetish for the people who believe in them, taking a nebulous sense of worthlessness, suffering or pain and giving it some kind of shape.  The nebulous sense can then at least be talked about, railed against, or even symbolically acted against. I admit that my hypothesis may be wrong, incomplete, or biased, and if you think you have a criticism of this psychological explanation, or a better one, please let me know.

Comment #89: atheist  on  03/17  at  11:27 AM

Chet:
Sounds like plain-old ideology to me.

I agree it sounds like that. I am a little leery of describing it that way, though, because it seems to assume that ideology is a kind of condition which must be avoided. I tend to see ideology more as an inherent condition of humans.

Thanks for the book suggestion. I have heard that is good. I know this is late but if you want to continue this discussion my email address is adellutri .atte. hotmail dott com

Comment #90: atheist  on  03/19  at  09:25 AM
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