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Anti-choice faux embrace of single mothers a victory for feminists

This story is definitely flying around feminist circles. Michael Kranish and Scott Helman, two investigative reporters for the Boston Globe, have published an excerpt from their new book about Mitt Romney in Vanity Fair. In it, they tell the story of a woman who was in Romney's church and when she was pregnant with her second child---while single---Romney, acting as a bishop, paid her a visit. He then pressured her to give up her baby for adoption, which she most adamantly didn't want to do.

Hayes was deeply insulted. She told him she would never surrender her child. Sure, her life wasn't exactly the picture of Rockwellian harmony, but she felt she was on a path to stability. In that moment, she also felt intimidated. Here was Romney, who held great power as her church leader and was the head of a wealthy, prominent Belmont family, sitting in her gritty apartment making grave demands. "And then he says, 'Well, this is what the church wants you to do, and if you don't, then you could be excommunicated for failing to follow the leadership of the church,'" Hayes recalled. It was a serious threat. At that point Hayes still valued her place within the Mormon Church. "This is not playing around," she said. "This is not like 'You don't get to take Communion.' This is like 'You will not be saved. You will never see the face of God.'" Romney would later deny that he had threatened Hayes with excommunication, but Hayes said his message was crystal clear: "Give up your son or give up your God."

It's a believable story, even though the church denies that they prescribe excommunication for the "sin" of single motherhood. After all, it sounds like he didn't phrase it to her that way, more more as a matter of disobedience. More to the point, I can see Romney, who is an imperious fuckhead, getting rapidly frustrated that this woman didn't immediately give in to his demands, so he could wrap up his church duties and return to his beloved business of cannibalizing other businesses and putting people out of work. Or whatever it was he had to do that day. Either way, I don't imagine he thought much of some woman low on the totem pole talking back to him instead of just doing what she was told. In frustration, bringing up the possibility of excommunication to get his way? Totally plausible.

(It's worth noting at this  point that Jezebel is right that his behavior, if true, is beyond the pale.  But from what I understand, Mormons don't believe in hell, per se, so perhaps this threat isn't quite as dire as when it's made by Catholics using the threat of god's punishment to control women's reproductive choices. It's like only 99.9% evil instead of 100% evil. But any Mormons or former Mormons are free to 'splain in comments.)

What's interesting to me is that the Romney campaign is denying the story. This is interesting to me, because it suggests that even out-of-touch Mitt Romney realizes that pressuring a woman to put a baby up for adoption has become politically toxic. This is an interesting and positive development, if that is in fact his concern. 

For as long as I remember, the anti-choice movement has heralded adoption as the "perfect" alternative to abortion, usually accompanies with platitudes like, "Abortion is never the answer." They implied that growing a baby for 9 months, giving birth, and then simply giving the baby to a "deserving" couple and walking away like it never happened was really not much harder than getting an abortion, and anyone who disputed that was just being selfish. The argument demonstrates the fundamental refusal of anti-choicers to see women---all women, even sexually active ones (aka, most women)---as full human beings. The value of women's labor, and the suffering that women reported was a common side effect of giving a baby away? Waved off, because they quite literally don't see it as mattering. Women are basically breeding animals in their view, and just like you don't ask your breeding dog if she wants pups when it's time to bring the stud around, you certainly do't worry if the women you see as stupid sluts get their hearts broken producing babies for "deserving" couples. You even take umbrage at the idea that women should be compensated for their labor with money.* 

For whatever reason, however, the coldness of this point of view has suddenly become apparent, and anti-choicers are scrambling to seem a little less heartless. I mean, they aren't becoming less heartless---their view is still that women who have sex outside of marriage deserve no better than to be forced to bear children and then to have those children taken away from them---but they are beginning to realize that they should probably at least pretend to support other options besides shotgun marriages and giving the baby up for adoption, if they want to present the false image of caring about women. That's why they occasionally make a big fuss over a single mother like Bristol Palin (while of course mindlessly condemning most single mothers who aren't white, wealthy, and Christian-identified). It's about creating the image that they will take single motherhood as a lesser of two evils, because they know their absolutist view of "get married or give it away" isn't flying with the public as much anymore. This feigned support for women who choose single motherhood over abortion is all smoke and mirrors, of course, since the Christian right by and large still doesn't support any social programs that would make raising a child by yourself easier, but that they feel the need to pretend to support single mothers is an interesting development.

Romney's denial suggests that he gets that. The aggressive attacks on single mothers makes it incredibly clear that the opposition to abortion is not about "life", but about patriarchal power and controlling women's reproductive capacities.That anti-choicers have to tone down the sexist aggression, at least for P.R. reasons, is a victory for feminists. While it's frustrating that they pretend to uphold our belief that women are valuable while pushing legislation to relegate women to second class status, it's interesting that our values are so ascendent that they have no other choice. Which, of course, is all the more reason to keep these older stories of women being coerced and threatened into giving babies up for adoption in the public eye. Antis shouldn't be allowed to hide their point of view on this so very easily.

*Yes, yes, I get that there are women who give babies up and walk away and it's not a big deal for them. But that's surprisingly rare. The evidence for this contention is that after maternity homes, which were basically places where pregnant women and girls were made to believe they had no choice but to give up their babies, were shut down, the number of healthy, adoptable babies on the market plummeted. Meanwhile, there was a concurrent rise in the rate of single motherhood, which indicates that it's not legal abortion that really did the adoption market in, but women keeping their babies. In fact, the difficulties white Christian couples have in finding white, healthy babies to adopt is one of the reasons the anti-choice movement is so extreme: They want to restore the supply side, by force, if necessary. Which it appears to be.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:01 AM • (46) Comments

This feigned support for women who choose single motherhood over abortion is all smoke and mirrors, of course, since the Christian right by and large still doesn’t support any social programs that would make raising a child by yourself easier

Damn right. This woman puts it incredibly powerfully:

In each and every dark pit of desperation, I have never seen a pro-lifer. I ain’t never seen them babysitting, scrubbing floors, bringing over goods, handing mom $50 bucks a month or driving her to the pediatrician. I ain’t never seen them sitting up for hours with an autistic child who screams and rages so his mother can get some sleep while she rests up from working 14-hour days. I don’t see them fixing leaks in rundown houses or playing with a kid while the police prepare to interview her about her sexual abuse. They’re not paying for the funerals of babies and children who died after birth, when they truly do become independent organisms. And the crazy thing is they think they’ve already done their job, because the child was born!

Comment #1: Triplanetary  on  01/12  at  11:12 AM

That’s why they occasionally make a big fuss over a single mother like Bristol Palin (while of course mindlessly condemning most single mothers who aren’t white, wealthy, and Christian-identified).

Not so long ago even women who met your parenthetical were condemned, e.g. Murphy Brown.

Comment #2: bomberE  on  01/12  at  11:56 AM

Has anyone seen NBC’s “Parenthood?” There is an anti-choice storyline on the otherwise seemingly progressive (if boring) show. Some young woman was very freaked out because she was pregnant, and then her wealthy savior said she wanted to adopt her baby and that she’d help her with doctor expenses and such. Now the young woman is living in her house and she said, “I try to give her her privacy even though she’s carrying my baby.” And the girl’s boyfriend was “bad” or whatever and didn’t want to give the baby away.

Comment #3: autonomousautomaton  on  01/12  at  12:02 PM

As a former Mormon I can say that the threat that Romney made is entirely plausible, but not following official mormon practice. It really depends on the status of the woman. If she had been through the temple (‘endowed’ in mormon parlance) then she could be excommunicated for having sex outside of marriage. If she had not been endowed it would be much harder to have her exed.

In any case an excommunication would not have been up to Romney had he been just a bishop. The stake high council and stake presidency would have had to make that decision. (a ‘stake’ is the equivalent to a diocese).  In any case to threaten her with excommunication is a horrible thing for Romney to do. Also, it could be the case that she was getting assistance from the church (I don’t know for sure in this case) but I have seen it happen where a person is getting help from the bishop for bills or food and the bishop uses the threat of excommunication to get the person to do what he wants. It is an abuse of power in any case.

Comment #4: topher  on  01/12  at  12:07 PM

@3

I liked it better when it was called Juno.

No wait, I hated Juno.

Comment #5: Triplanetary  on  01/12  at  12:09 PM

More stories about Romney like this need to be aired.  I’m sick of hearing Willard described as “nice.”  To me, he seems awfully flinty if his inferiors don’t immediately yield to his will. He strikes me as Veruca Salt with George Clooney hair.

Comment #6: Heaventree  on  01/12  at  12:19 PM

“Not so long ago even women who met your parenthetical were condemned, e.g. Murphy Brown.”

...you don’t understand.  “Murphy Brown” was a flaming liberal feminazi slut, who many people on the right (including J. Danforth Quayle, VPOTUS at the time) thought was an actual person.  Obviously she was a horrible character who is at least partially responsible for the moral decline of America, at least that portion which cannot be blamed on William Jefferson Clinton.

OTOH, “Bristol Palin”, is a real life Fine Christian Young Woman of Character, who, through no fault of her own, was somehow blessed by Jesus with a precious baby, and yet somehow remained a virgin, or something, and now makes a living by telling other Fine Christian Young Women of Character to not get knocked up.

Very different people, very different circumstances, very different moral lessons to be drawn, as I’m sure is obvious to all…

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  01/12  at  12:27 PM

MikeEss, you should have thrown a least one “she wanted to gay abortion” in there. :p

Comment #8: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/12  at  12:35 PM

In any case an excommunication would not have been up to Romney had he been just a bishop.

Romney didn’t say he was excommunicating her, just that she could be excommunicated.  What I find telling is that it wasn’t for the sin of sex out of wedlock but for not following church authority.  That’s patriarchy at its most naked.  I think that angle of the story deserves a lot more attention. 

Comment #9: carovee  on  01/12  at  12:47 PM

I vaguely remeber that we had a neighbor when we lived in TX, so 1974-75, whose husband had deserted the family and taken up with another woman a couple of towns over.  The Mormon church provided support for the woman and her children, but according to conversations between her and my mother that was contingent on her not divorcing her husband.  Just anoc-data, but it makes so I have no trouble believing this story.

Comment #10: helen w. h.  on  01/12  at  12:58 PM

helen w. h., one of my Texas cousins had to move here to California in 1974 to get away from her asshole ex-husband because he would come into her work and behave like a shithead and of course the police and sheriffs would back her hubby.

Back then there was a stigma against divorced women, Mormon or otherwise amongst the general population of Texas.

Comment #11: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/12  at  01:18 PM

It’s about creating the image that they will take single motherhood as a lesser of two evils, because they know their absolutist view of “get married or give it away” isn’t flying with the public as much anymore. This feigned support for women who choose single motherhood over abortion is all smoke and mirrors, of course, since the Christian right by and large still doesn’t support any social programs that would make raising a child by yourself easier, but that they feel the need to pretend to support single mothers is an interesting development.

One of the framings of government assistance for single mothers is that the government is replacing the husband.  If you’ve already got a husband you don’t need another one, plus the government is pretty lax about making sure you don’t have sex with anyone else, government don’t care.

Keeping single mothers away from government programs means they will be much more eager to marry some guy even if he’s a shithead.  Free market poon.

Comment #12: oldfeminist  on  01/12  at  01:32 PM

for a second i thought this was about the mother of 4 he tried to talk out of an abortion.

http://jezebel.com/5851050/the-curious-case-of-mitt-romney-an-abortion-and-eliza-dushkus-mom

he’s like a friggin’ bull elk, strutting and bellowing, making sure every calf that comes from his herd is kosher.

Comment #13: gardenom  on  01/12  at  01:38 PM

Pro-choice won the framing war, but we’re losing too many battles.  They say, “Choose life.”  So they cotton to the choice rhetoric. 

I’m pretty convinced that part of the problem is the stalemate and cease-fire that’s been declared.  No one argues about abortion because it’s “too sensitive,” or “You won’t change anyone’s mind.”  Bullshit.  People don’t think about it when no one talks to them about it, until they’re pregnant when they don’t want to be.

Comment #14: saraeanderson  on  01/12  at  01:58 PM

Romney everyday seems to be proving how much of an egotistical millionaire scumbag he is.  It’s as if every bad trait that comes with money and power landed square on his well-coifed head and he has proceeded to walk around doing whatever pleases him.  I’m sure Bain Capital was based in Boston hence his running in Mass. politics but he really sounds like a perfect candidate to come out of Utah or the deep south.  He’s a demagogue with a panache for living the life of a disturbed Mormon.  Threatening excommunication is something that no matter you believe in is a serious thing. You really need to work at being excommunicated and he wanted to do it because he didn’t get his way. I wonder if he was told to go there or simply went there of his own accord with his own plan?

Comment #15: Xeranar  on  01/12  at  02:00 PM

Keeping single mothers away from government programs means they will be much more eager to marry some guy even if he’s a shithead.  Free market poon.

Extremely good point. This dovetails with MRA attitudes and behaviors, but it’s really striking to me how patriarchal/misogynist men seem so convinced that they could never attract a woman on their own merits, and that they thus have to rig the system in their favor* and do everything possible to deprive women of the freedom to control their own lives. They seem pretty certain that if women have power over their own lives, they’ll (the men, I mean) never get laid.

Which in the case of these particular men may well be a justified fear. Too bad they feel entitled to poon and thus don’t see why they should try being a decent, likeable person.

*moreso than it already is, at any rate

Comment #16: Triplanetary  on  01/12  at  02:06 PM

DAGCM -
Indeed there was a stigma, but as my mother was a divorced working mother of three (two mixed racial), I don’t think Mom much cared what TX thought of her.  Being the single mother because your husband ran away was no picnic either.  We were only in TX because the university in KS where my mother had been accepted to graduate school wouldn’t let a single (or divorced or widowed) woman with children live in student housing, so we had kept going south to her parents after not being able to find a decent apartment quickly. 
We headed back to WA about 14 months later, as soon as my mom could save up the money and get through admissions to grad school back where she had gotten her BA.

Comment #17: helen w. h.  on  01/12  at  02:53 PM

but as my mother was a divorced working mother of three (two mixed racial), I don’t think Mom much cared what TX thought of her.

My cousin was born and grew up in Texas, so uprooting herself here to the West Coast was only possible because of the support of my parents, and really her best option at the time. It’s harder to shrug off what the neighbors think when you’ve grown up with them, even if her asshole ex didn’t decide to make things worse for her because she dared to divorce him(this pipsqueak was afraid of my mother because she spoke her mind, and (gasp) smoked in public.). 

It was only when I was older(I was 15 in 1974) did I realize the hell she had gotten herself out of at the time.

The ironic thing is that her ex is now single(after a few other wives), he’s on oxygen, unable to get around by himself very well and will probably die alone, a broken and lonely shell of a man.

Comment #18: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  01/12  at  03:10 PM

It can’t ever be the act of keeping the kid or getting divorced or whatever that leads to the punishment, because the people in authority might change their minds on that at any moment. It’s the act of insubordination.

Comment #19: paul  on  01/12  at  03:24 PM

Looking at the picture that accompanies this post, I’d hate to have that man have any say in anything that happens to me.  And here’s a woman who took responsibility for her decisions and wanted to take responsibility for the consequences of those decisions, and this idiot wanted to take that away from her?

Comment #20: gretchen  on  01/12  at  03:47 PM

Carovee @9 - regarding the authoritarian nature of the church…

There were a group of kids who lived in the same dorm as me in college who tended to have long, loud, and not-very-ignorable conversations in the dining hall.  One of them was a Mormon.  I distinctly remember one time when they were talking/asking him about the LDS Church.  One of the others (I don’t remember who) asked him about the Church’s rather strict hierarchy.

From what I recall, basically, you have somebody above you making decisions for you at all times.  They’re granted authority over you by the Church (and doctrinally, by God), though how much they intervene in your life probably depends a lot on the people involved and the types of decisions being made.  For example, where you are going to go on your mission?  Very likely involved.  Who you’ll marry?  Possibly.  What you’ll have for breakfast?  Not likely.

One of the other students was understandably creeped out by the idea.  S/he (again, I don’t remember) asked him what would happen if you were to disobey your superior; if you didn’t think what he was telling you to do was right.  The kid’s response was something to the effect of, “you’re always free to disobey God’s will - you just have to live with the consequences.”

What I took from that exchange was that in the Mormon religion, the patriarchy is absolute and enforced through fear of damnation.  It’s not just this one case with Mittens.

Comment #21: Dave Fried  on  01/12  at  03:53 PM

DAGCM - Yes, it is harder when you are talking about the peole with whom you grew up, but TX and that town were that for my mother as we went on to stay with her parents.  She did have the advantage of it being a comparitively liberal (ha! but unfortunately true when looking even a few miles away) company town with lots of educated newcomers and transients, having already escaped to live elsewhere in much more liberal places for more than a decade, and having a plan to get back out.

Comment #22: helen w. h.  on  01/12  at  05:26 PM

Comment #16: Triplanetary on 01/12
Oh man, I alllllllllmost agree. But it seems to me that control isn’t a means to poon, poon is a means to control. Being less iron-fisted and manipulative as a male class (I mean Patriarchy) gets you more, and more enthusiastic, pussy. If poon was the ultimate goal that class and its leaders would be more supportive of free love. Since control IS the goal they’re willing to make do with less, and less enthusiastic, poon.

Whoops Mitt, I guess there are enough single mothers and they’re juuuuuust economically independent enough that they matter now as people, at least the white Christian ones. If only he’d been a decade or two earlier, “unstable unwed mother” would’ve had the same alarming ring of today’s “welfare queen” or “transvestite.” Instead someone saw “single mom” and didn’t panic! Ruh-roh. In fact there are enough of those someone’s out there to make a movie like Juno sellable.

I truly don’t get wingnuts (but I’m ok with that). So Herman Cain harasses and it’s ok but a consensual affair is not? Right when I think I’ve decoded their logic to a consistent, “up is down, 2+2=Jesus” something like this comes along. Why wouldn’t this make Mitt more popular? Isn’t he suffering from not being evangelical enough? How does this not help him out?

Comment #23: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/12  at  05:38 PM

I have a friend that was excommunicated about a year ago, it seemed like the process took about a year, and did have some real world consequences for him, he was a successful insurance agent and was pretty much shunned by most his clients afterwards, and I don’t think he has any friends left from his church days. 

I would think for a single mom the idea of losing most your friends, and family support would be much worse than the fear of not getting your own planet, or I guess not getting to hang out on your husbands planet

Comment #24: Benny  on  01/12  at  05:42 PM

Oh man, I alllllllllmost agree. But it seems to me that control isn’t a means to poon, poon is a means to control. Being less iron-fisted and manipulative as a male class (I mean Patriarchy) gets you more, and more enthusiastic, pussy. If poon was the ultimate goal that class and its leaders would be more supportive of free love. Since control IS the goal they’re willing to make do with less, and less enthusiastic, poon.

Power is the point, but unfortunately the sex gets wrapped up in that as well. Patriarchal men don’t want enthusiastic poon, even in theory, so it’s not a trade-off for them. If the woman’s anything more than an instrument to fulfill the man’s sexual desires, he doesn’t feel powerful enough.

So again, they’re worried that if women have control of their own lives, the straight men who want to conquer and own a woman via fucking her will lose out to the straight men who want to connect with and be equal partners with a woman via fucking her (or fucking with her, rather, but again in the sexual sense).

Comment #25: Triplanetary  on  01/12  at  05:53 PM

Oh man, I alllllllllmost agree. But it seems to me that control isn’t a means to poon, poon is a means to control. Being less iron-fisted and manipulative as a male class (I mean Patriarchy) gets you more, and more enthusiastic, pussy. If poon was the ultimate goal that class and its leaders would be more supportive of free love. Since control IS the goal they’re willing to make do with less, and less enthusiastic, poon.
Comment #23: MoseyMcShuffleson on 01/12 at 05:38 PM

But free love results in a system where love is given to people you like.  These are guys who won’t get it on the voluntary system, or think they won’t. 

They mostly don’t believe free love works, anyway, because women don’t like sex.  There must be something else exchanged, whether it’s status or money or security.

There are plenty of women who think this, too.  Can’t remember her name but some columnist declared that men put up with babies to have sex and women put up with sex to have babies.  Maybe Mona Charen?

Comment #26: oldfeminist  on  01/12  at  05:54 PM

Why wouldn’t this make Mitt more popular? Isn’t he suffering from not being evangelical enough? How does this not help him out?

In my experience, Evangelicals don’t excommunicate. They’ll run you out of the church and community, but they don’t have a formal practice for wiping you out of the church roles. Excommunication makes most people think of Catholics, so it’s presence in this story is just another reminder that Romney is part of that weird other-religion that may want the same narrow, patriarchal, conservative future as most evangelicals, but has all these weird traditions and practices that we just don’t understand.

Comment #27: scrumby  on  01/12  at  06:13 PM

Comment #27: scrumby on 01/12
Aahhhh, that makes sense (relatively of course).

Comment #25: Triplanetary on 01/12
Good point, I’ll mull that over. “the straight men who want to conquer and own a woman via fucking her will lose out to the straight men who want to connect with and be equal partners with a woman via fucking her [...]” That makes sense as to why “alpha men” ridicule and make life difficult for other men who express anything other than jeering hatred toward women.

“Patriarchal men don’t want enthusiastic poon, even in theory, so it’s not a trade-off for them.” Agreed, but I guess I meant they’re trading sex for power-role-play disguised as sex, where they cannot get off without power, even if the pussy is already available, and where sex is foreplay before the real payoffs like emotional abuse, public humiliation, stalking, divorce battles or harassment (I’m just talking about a certain kind of man, of course). I guess I see sex as far less important than power in this scenario and think outsiders focus in on the sex element because sex is attention-getting and it’s hard to stop seeing sex as rewarding in itself, like most normal people.

I mean, I agree with oldfemininst that these guys are worried they can’t get laid without fixing the system in their favor, but I see fixing the system and seeing the reactions ARE they payoff. They probably go to bed that night thinking, “I can fix the system! I’m important and powerful. I now fuck [over] every female citizen by proxy,” not “I have a slightly better chance at getting laid now so I guess that tedious legal work might pay off.”

Comment #28: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/12  at  07:03 PM

editing myself: “I mean, I agree with oldfemininst that these guys are worried they can’t get laid without fixing the system in their favor, but I see fixing the system and seeing the reactions ARE they payoff.”

ok, that made no sense. I meant,
“... but I see fixing the system and basking in the outraged reactions AS the payoff for these men.”

Comment #29: MoseyMcShuffleson  on  01/12  at  07:13 PM

I wonder if ol’ Mitt had a better couple in mind to raise that baby.  And when she told him no, well how was he supposed to explain to that better couple that some dumb slut thought she could raise a baby better?  Slut deserved excommunication.

Sounds like excommunication in the LDS is a bit worse than in the Catholic Church.  Excommunication doesn’t mean you’re damned to hell necessarily, it does mean you are no longer welcome in the Church or allowed to receive any sacraments, including confession/reconciliation.  So if you know you’re right, and defy the hierarchy b/c it’s what God told you to do, and you never sin again and need confession, you could still go to heaven, but it’s a really long shot.  Stub your toe and curse…damned you are, since you can’t expiate that sin.

Comment #30: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/12  at  08:50 PM

I wonder if ol’ Mitt had a better couple in mind to raise that baby.  And when she told him no, well how was he supposed to explain to that better couple that some dumb slut thought she could raise a baby better?  Slut deserved excommunication.

Honestly, I think Romney or his church already had a specific couple in mind when he did this.  She already had one kid; why didn’t they want her to give that one up, either when it was born or along with the newborn?  I suspect it’s because there was nobody looking for a baby the first time, or if she was married at the time and divorced the second time, there was nobody who wanted a non-infant child.  This whole thing screams baby broker to me.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  01/12  at  10:23 PM

Yeah, excommunication in the mormon church has a theological dimension but often more important a practical one, especially if you live in a mostly-mormon community or have most of your social and other contact among fellow mormons.

Comment #32: paul  on  01/12  at  10:35 PM

I’m not a Mormon, but I got fascinated with it a few months ago and started reading everything I could get my hands on online. The story of Joseph Smith and the founding of Mormonism is a trip, and the textual analysis of the Book of Mormon is a wonderful case study in forensic criticism (it’s neatly plagiarized from a number of contemporary speculative histories/fantasies). But the structure of the church is such that excommunication means a complete severance from everyone and everything you know. Forever: you’re supposed to go to heaven and to become a ‘god’. Women do this through their husbands, which means that you’re screwed if you don’t marry or if you divorce.

Many of the Ex-mormon sites are fundy/evangelical recruitment sites that attempt to convert Mormons away from their ‘heresy’ to the ‘Truth’, so they’re biased in weird ways, but there’s quite a few wonderful, thoughtful and intelligent atheist/agnostic or skeptical sites too.

The Exmormon foundation’s website has some fascinating stuff on it: the videos and audio stuff from the “Ex-Mormon Conference” that they have every year is really choice.

http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/

Comment #33: jrochest  on  01/12  at  11:05 PM

...so, basically Willard Romney is a living, breathing embodiment of the Patriarchy, and all its negatives, up to and including threatening eternal damnation for failing to properly follow the Patriarchy’s edicts — and for women even the smallest deviation from the ideal (or what the Patriarchy desires) is considered insubordination.  The Vulture Capitalism is just the icing on a very shitty cake…

Awesome!...

Comment #34: MikeEss  on  01/12  at  11:26 PM

I love* how women need to be prevented from getting abortions because the instant they give birth they’ll realize they love their babies, but they also need to not feel grief or loss when they hand it over to the adoptive parents because how dare they ruin the rainbow-shitting perfect solution narrative with their inconvenient feelings for their own babies.

*hate, fury of a thousand suns, etc, etc.

It’s like conservatives expect women to have the exact utter lack of feeling for their babies after they’re born that they refuse to accept in them when they have abortions.

Which ought to be in some literary agent’s reject pile under “villains too unrealistically evil,” not in the personal history of a man who is legitimately running for President of the United States.

Comment #35: Kyra  on  01/13  at  06:16 AM

It’s like conservatives expect women to have the exact utter lack of feeling for their babies after they’re born that they refuse to accept in them when they have abortions.

I think in addition to this, there’s an undertone that someone else deserves that baby, which is bullshit entitlement of the highest order.  No one’s entitled to have children and only underlies the whole “patriarchal control” - children as objects of parents rather than human beings in their own right, and that colors their worldview of it.  If “everyone” believes that children are just parent-owned objects, then it shouldn’t be that hard to go the 9 months and give it up - the pregnant mother didn’t want/need that child anyway and other people do, so she’s a selfish slut for not sharing.

Which pretty gross - I love my nieces and nephews, and I look at them as small human beings, not parent-owned objects.  Thankfully, none of their parents think of them as parent-owned objects either.

Comment #36: SporkeyO  on  01/13  at  08:40 AM

@34 MikeEss

Last year, all his strident efforts to keep gubbamint money out of the hands of people who might use it to better women’s lives earned John Boehner the nickname “Cracker von Patriarch.” I move that we make Cracker von Patriarch an honorary title rather than a name, in which case Mitt Romney is a strong, strong candidate.

Comment #37: Triplanetary  on  01/13  at  09:47 AM

@Triplanetary

Wouldn’t von Patriarch be the title to get passed on? Romney seems like more of a Waspy von Patriarch than a cracker anyway.

Comment #38: scrumby  on  01/13  at  10:12 AM

I think in addition to this, there’s an undertone that someone else deserves that baby, which is bullshit entitlement of the highest order.  No one’s entitled to have children

God loves his people, and they certainly are entitled to everything they need and want. But God helps those who help themselves. You don’t sit around waiting for God to answer your prayers, you go out there and you take what’s yours by force.

Comment #39: junk science  on  01/13  at  10:20 AM

Seconding (or thirding) Triplanetary with scrumby’s change.  It could be an awesome (Not!) new thing, like the Cootie awards (I think those are Echidne’s).

Comment #40: helen w. h.  on  01/13  at  11:12 AM

I think in addition to this, there’s an undertone that someone else deserves that baby, which is bullshit entitlement of the highest order.  No one’s entitled to have children and only underlies the whole “patriarchal control” - children as objects of parents rather than human beings in their own right, and that colors their worldview of it.

It’s all part of a prescriptive wordview, actually.  Where you make plans for what should happen in circumstance X, Y or Z, and others follow that plan.  Pregnant outside of marriage?  The best outcome is you and the father marry, so try to force that to happen.  If he’s absent or otherwise inappropriate, give up the baby to a deserving couple.  If that doesn’t work, you have the baby but don’t have much support from the state so that you become dependent on a church based charity or marry some guy who deserves a wife but maybe not a perfect one.

It’s the same logic that makes having an abortion conditional on all kinds of tests and rules, and it even extends to some sorta pro-choice people who really aren’t pro-choice.  They just believe abortion is okay in certain circumstances (rape, incest, mother’s life threatened) so that you’d have to follow those rules.

It’s a trustless fucked up way to treat people, as if they are interchangeable and their circumstances can be boiled down to a limited set of parameters and their personal desires and beliefs are irrelevant.  Anyone who complains that the Left is totalitarian isn’t paying attention to the Right.

(is anyone else having problems with autologin on the site?  I have to keep re-signing in even though I’ve always got autologin already checked when I go to the login page.)

Comment #41: oldfeminist  on  01/13  at  01:38 PM

But any Mormons or former Mormons are free to ‘splain in comments.

Mormansplaining? Bbbut… does the world really need mor of that? smile

Comment #42: Salient  on  01/13  at  04:42 PM

This was touched on at 33, and I haven’t been a Mormon/gone to church in about a billion years so I may be off here, but I would say threatening excommunication like this is just as evil for Mormons as it is for Catholics. Mormons aren’t into the idea of eternal hell and torture, but as I recall, not coming to the church and being baptized before you die means that you are cast into Eternal Darkness forever. For a religion that so prioritizes “family” (a really specific version of it, but still), to threaten someone with excommunication is not only saying that the “offender” will never see God, but they will also be denied the opportunity of being reunited with their family in heaven and instead with float around in a lonely, dark, cold state of semi-existence with Lucifer forever and ever.

Which is a pretty uncool thing to dangle over someone’s head, so, as always, fuck Mitt Romney.

Comment #43: posedbymodels  on  01/14  at  03:40 AM

but as I recall, not coming to the church and being baptized before you die means that you are cast into Eternal Darkness forever

In fairness, it is a really awesome game.

Comment #44: Triplanetary  on  01/14  at  01:24 PM

Aw, Pandagon broke my link. You get the idea anyway.

Comment #45: Triplanetary  on  01/14  at  01:25 PM

There must be something else exchanged, whether it’s status or money or security.

Comment #46: bESt buY  on  01/15  at  02:41 PM
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