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Next entry: Post-election fun and conferences Previous entry: New York Readers: Come To The WAM! 80s Prom

Anti-choicers move the ball down the field

This election day, the great under-reported story is how much the same old culture war issues pushed out the right wing vote. There’s been a lot of useful attention paid to an issue people don’t like to talk about, which is how much racism still motivates the right, that the people who supported segregation are still around and still have foul attitudes, even if they express them differently.  Also, it was just impossible to ignore the racial resentments underpinning the suddenly “concern” for the deficit that only gets expressed when conservatives are afraid social spending will help people they don’t like get a leg up, and is never expressed when we’re pissing trillions down the toilet fighting imperialist wars.  The reason it was impossible to ignore these resentments were they were up front and center: the ACORN debacle, the attack on Van Jones, the name-calling and spitting on John Lewis, the attack on Shirley Sherrod, Dr. Laura losing her shit and yelling the n-word at a black caller, Birtherism, the resurgence of anti-immigration sentiment, the Arizona “papers please” law, the controversy over the community center near the WTC, the overtly racist ad campaigns, etc.  I could probably think of another 15 examples if I wanted, quickly.  This is an important story, and I’m super glad people are waking up to these realities.

Unfortunately, there’s only so many hours in the day, and so the war on women has gone largely unnoticed.  To make it worse, a handful of female Republicans have allowed the mainstream media to pretend that sexism is basically behind us, except as an occasional thing that comes into play when someone says something nasty about a female candidate. But the reality is that gender anxieties are pushing the right wing out there as much as racial ones. As I noted at RH Reality Check, the two stand-in issues for the whole right wing slate for wingnuts on the ground are guns-and-abortion, with gay rights bringing up the rear. (DOUBLE ENTENDRE NOTED.)  Guns is a racialized issue to a large extent—-gun nuts often imagine they live in a war zone and are about to be attacked at any minute, and we can guess what they imagine their soon-to-exist attackers look like.  But gender also plays a big role.  I’d say the same thing about abortion rights, as well.  It’s about gender, but it’s also an intersectional issue.  Right wingers who want abortion banned are basically begging for a haves and have-nots system.  Bans on abortion mostly affect the vulnerable—-the poor and the young—-because women of means and with connections can often pay to have safe, discreet abortions.  The fact that anti-choice forces successfully attack abortion funding through both federal and private insurance reinforces this.  They want a system where the already vulnerable are kept oppressed by unwanted child-bearing, whereas the wives and daughters of the well-to-do get all the medical care their male supervisors deem they deserve.  They’re halfway there already.

What few people in the mainstream and on the left, besides Rachel Maddow and RH Reality Check, are talking about is how much this election is about this.  The Tea Party candidates are seen as extreme for their views on taxes, repealing parts of the Constitution, social spending, and even masturbation.  But there’s been very little alarm about their views on reproductive rights.  I submit that most of them wouldn’t have won their primaries without taking a harsh anti-woman stance.  This worries me mostly because the anti-choice project of mainstreaming extreme anti-woman views is working.


As I noted at RH Reality Check last week, the whole point of doing things like putting personhood amendments on the ballot in places like Colorado is not to win immediately.  It’s to quietly mainstream more extreme views on reproductive rights, to normalize the idea of banning IVF, contraception, and even some kinds of medical care for women of reproductive age, pregnant or not.  I don’t know how well the personhood amendments are working, but the strategy of running extremely misogynist candidates is working.  Joe Miller is an overt homophobe and misogynist who believes that rape victims should be forced to bear their rapists’ children.  Because of this, Lisa Murkowski looks “moderate” in comparison.  So much so that even Feministing described Murkowski as “pro-choice”.

But Lisa Murkowski is anti-choice, just not with the same vicious, woman-hating zeal of Joe Miller. Basically, she’s not anti-contraception like many extremists are.  She only has a 25% rating from NARAL, and most of that is due to her unwillingness to let anti-choice zealots attach riders to other bills to make them about abortion when they’re not.  She voted pro-contraception but still anti-abortion when she voted against the global gag rule, and she voted against an SCHIP rider that would cover “unborn children”, which is stupid from any angle you look at it.  Despite her male colleagues hopes and dreams, you can’t just treat a fetus as separate from the pregnant woman in terms of health care.  But Murkowski does support forcing unwilling women to give birth.  Thus, she is anti-choice. 

You have a similar story in Colorado.  Ken Buck is playing the role of the extremely misogynist right winger, in part because of his stance on abortion and contraception, but also because of scandals where he suggested that his opponent in the primary shouldn’t win because she’s female, and because he was cruel to a rape victim whose case he refused to prosecute.  Because he’s holding down the misogynist right, he grants other anti-choicers a glow of not-as-badness.  But his high heels wearing opponent Jane Norton also backed the personhood amendment that anti-choicers hope will present a threat to legal birth control.  What’s becoming clear is that to win Republican primaries, it helps—-whether you’re male or female—-to take a “more misogynist than thou” stance.  Why I think female candidates think this will work out for them in the long run is unclear.  As the Colorado situation shows, if you’re in a “more misogynist than thou” contest between a man and a woman that have identical policy stances, the penis-holder is going to win.  It’s built into the system. 

A few years ago, extreme anti-choice beliefs were considered really far out there, so much that even the Bush administration finally had to cave when it came to blocking access to emergency contraception.  But sadly, I think anti-choice forces have been able to steadily work the notion that rape victims should be forced to bear their rapists’ babies and that women shouldn’t have the birth control pill further into the mainstream.  It’s still fringe, but clearly gaining ground.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:17 AM • (82) Comments

I swear that one day, we will see a person publically advocate making single women who are victims of rape marry their rapists in order for the baby to be born into a “proper family.” This hypothetical person will get away with it because most/nearly all of the media lets them get away with it. Come on people, call a spade a spade. Even in the liberal press, its rare to find a reporter truly willing to speak the obvious truth. People who argue against contraceptives, against abortion even under cases of rape, incest (which most likely involves rape), and where the mothers life is in danger are clearly not of sound mind or opinion. They are wrong.

    It seems that views on abortion function as something of a canary in a coal mine when it comes to the fitness of a person for office. If a politician is pro-choice, the politician usually is okay to good on other issues. If the politician is anti-choice than the politician is most likely bad on other issues to. This is at least true in the United States. It kind of makes voting easier.

Comment #1: Lee  on  11/02  at  01:49 PM

The rape/incest exception is just throwing a curveball.  Effectively even if there were exceptions for that, any law restricting abortion would just be making it impossible to obtain one.  Our legal system moves slowly as it is.  All you need is a smart lawyer with a couple of good reasons for continuance, and suddenly the question becomes moot.  Too late for the abortion now!  Sorry!  Cause we already made the late-term ones illegal!  HA!

Not to mention, rape is such a poorly prosecuted crime to begin with.  Do people really think it will get any better when a woman’s autonomous personhood is on the line?

I’m sorry, but I hate how people think just cause someone is for a rape/incest clause they’re being reasonable.  They’re not.  They’re being smug assholes who know they will get what they want either way.

Comment #2: speedbudget  on  11/02  at  01:57 PM

This kind of creep against birth control is one of my white hot fury buttons that the “Both Parties Are The Same” people hit.

The worst part is, most of them are so entitled that they don’t see how it affects them even when it’s pointed out to them on a 72 point font in Power Point.

Comment #3: cynickal  on  11/02  at  01:58 PM

“If a politician is pro-choice, the politician usually is okay to good on other issues. If the politician is anti-choice than the politician is most likely bad on other issues to. This is at least true in the United States. It kind of makes voting easier.”

...unless the choice is between Kang and Kodos, as it too often has been:

“I advocate the Death Penalty for anyone involved in any abortion, under any circumstances, unto the seventh generation!”

“I too believe in outlawing all abortions, under any circumstances, but the applying the Death Penalty unto the seventh generation is going too gosh darn far.  After all, we are Pro-Life.  Therefore, I propose a penalty of death for any involvement in an abortion, but only up to the fifth generation — which should be enough to send the right message…”

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  11/02  at  02:09 PM

This worries me mostly because the anti-choice project of mainstreaming extreme anti-woman views is working.

THIS! The question is, how do we combat this madness effectively? Is it even possible?

Despite her male colleagues hopes and dreams, you can’t just treat a fetus as separate from the pregnant woman in terms of health care.

Luckily, you can do just that—treat the pregnant woman and her uterine contents as separate—legally. As in, you are an Ohio prosecutor who charges a man accused of trying to force his pregnant girlfriend at gunpoint to get an abortion with attempted murder…of the fetus.

Comment #5: ema  on  11/02  at  04:09 PM

I swear that one day, we will see a person publically advocate making single women who are victims of rape marry their rapists in order for the baby to be born into a “proper family.”

This idea was copyrighted in Deuteronomy 22:28-39, so why not?

Comment #6: Lesly  on  11/02  at  04:12 PM

Ema at 5, I’m not sure if it can be countered. There always seems to be a certain segment of humanity that desires the most reactionary form of society possible. You can force them into the shadows for a time but they always seem to re-emerge with greater force. After the Scopes Trial, even though it was technically a lost for the pro-evolution side, the pro-evolution side thought that it won over the creationists because they made fools of themselves. It turned out that the creationists only went underground for several decades and then seemed to reemerge. A similar phenomenon can be noticed for everything; anti-Semitism, sexism, and racism. Each was thought to be beaten, only to reemerge.

Comment #7: Lee  on  11/02  at  04:29 PM

If you don’t live in the DC area, then you may not have seen the ads for “candidate” for Congress, Missy Reilly Smith. She’s a nutjob who knows she won’t get more than five votes but who insists that stopping abortion is the most important issue of our time. Her ads were banned from you tube but they depict the usual photoshopped pictures of fetuses and are preceded by a disclaimer from the station about how graphic they are. I saw her ad during the kid friendly after school time of day, 4:00 - 5:00pm. So the lunatics will be televised.

And as politicians go, I mostly like Kathleen Sebelius but she totally irked me this summer by going along with the idea that before the pill can be included in any health care legislation as preventative care, it must be studied farther. Really? It’s been studied for all 50 years that it’s been on the market. Penicillin is probably the only drug that has been studied more. The pill prevents abortions but it doesn’t stop women from having sex, so it remains a political football.

Comment #8: serious bette  on  11/02  at  04:40 PM

Ah, it was Feministing.  I had thought Murkowski was pro-choice, and this week i realized she wasn’t.  I was trying to figure out where the heck I got that from.

Comment #9: Lady Vader  on  11/02  at  05:01 PM

yep, this post is spot on.  Scott walker is probably going to be the next govenor of Wisconsin(I pray to ceiling cat this is not so).  When he was in the state assembly, he voted to prevent uw clinics from handing out emergency bc.  He also either cosponsored or voted with a bill ( i don’t remember which) to enable pharmacists to refuse women birth control on religious grounds.  Yet the dude only has two kids.  So did he and his wife only have sexy time a handful of times (ew) or is it yet another case of birth control being bad for the slutty sluts but a okay for mr. patriarch family man?  I can’t believe that wingnuts can see this disconnect.

Comment #10: kitten parade  on  11/02  at  06:01 PM

excuse me “Can’t see this disconnect”

Comment #11: kitten parade  on  11/02  at  06:02 PM

Here in NM both gubernatorial candidates are women.  A few weeks ago the local CBS station had a supposedly side-by-side (“balanced” [?]) comparison of where they were each getting money from.  They noted that the Dem candidate had gotten $100,000 from Emily’s List, which they described as a “pro-ABORTION” group, while the Repug candidate had gotten $500K from Bob Perry, the Texas guy who spearheaded the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry.

Comment #12: Sixtieslibber  on  11/02  at  06:02 PM

I can’t believe that wingnuts can’t see this disconnect.

Of course they can. But they are Mr. Patriarch Family Man, so why on earth would they ever give a fuck?

Comment #13: Well, what?  on  11/02  at  06:07 PM

I still don’t get why they’re mad about public funds for abortion while I have to pay public funds for wars. 

Why is that a violation of their right and not of mine?

Comment #14: Crissa  on  11/02  at  06:07 PM

Why is that a violation of their right and not of mine?

Because you’re a woman/pacifist/liberal, duh. You haven’t got any rights to violate. Only straight white old dudes who lurve their guns count.

Comment #15: Well, what?  on  11/02  at  06:43 PM

@Crissa

B/c they are Real “Murkins (tm) and you’re a godless lie-brul.

They’ll have you cleaning up nuclear wastes when Gilead comes.

Comment #16: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/02  at  06:58 PM

It’s not going away.
Women’s reproductive health care is always going to be used as a weapon by sociopathic power grabbers.  They will propagandize and lie and bully in order to make gullible followers blindly loyal to their “pro-life” scam. When there are 50 million followers, as there seem to be, the bullies keep their power. 
Sometimes the women’s health care will be bargained away (see Stupak) or compromised for more “important”  trade-offs, and sometimes there will be some limited degree of adequate care for some women. 
It will never be safe unless there is a way that women can take direct control of their own general health, birth control, reproductive health and childbirth. 
I’m not saying I know how that can be done, but there is probably more technology (some in the form of folk and herbal remedies) available than we realize.  Information, along with some comprehensive availability of condoms and other birth control would do a lot to change things.  Our health shouldn’t be a political football, and it is naive to think that it’s ever going to be completely safe.

Comment #17: happyfungirl  on  11/02  at  07:18 PM

As a feminist, Amanda despises nothing more than misogyny and woman-hating, so we should be entirely unsurprised when we see her describing the loss of privilege in these terms.

Comment #18: Nedved  on  11/02  at  07:43 PM

@Austin Nedved

Which terms would you use to describe the loss of privilege?

(Please include some reference to plants, if at all possible.  I will never get sick of chuckling at that.)

Comment #19: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  08:31 PM

“As a feminist, Amanda despises nothing more than misogyny and woman-hating…”

...as opposed to other people who enjoy those things?

”...so we should be entirely unsurprised when we see her describing the loss of privilege in these terms.”

WTF? 

“loss of privilege”?

Would that be the “privilege” of having bodily autonomy, without the government (or religious nuts) telling you what you are and are not allowed to do with your own flesh?

How is that privilege, and not a fundamental human right?

(...bracing myself for the inevitable re-definition of basic and commonly understood terms…)

But then again, I guess this is talking to the troll, so maybe I’ll leave it at that…

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  11/02  at  08:34 PM

@MikeEss

When you point out how ridiculous he is that obviously, you lessen the possibility that he will display his hilarious lack of understanding of anything before he is sent away again.  Shame on you.

He is far and away my all-time favorite troll.  Did you know that if you take birth control to treat a medical condition that it doesn’t prevent pregnancy?

His off-the-cuff explanation of privilege was probably going to be the funniest thing of the week (and FSM-knows we could probably use some funny right about now).  Now he might actually use teh google and try to shove correctish terms in all badly.  Much less funny. :(

Comment #21: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  08:41 PM

MikeEss: WTF?

“loss of privilege”?

Would that be the “privilege” of having bodily autonomy, without the government (or religious nuts) telling you what you are and are not allowed to do with your own flesh?

How is that privilege, and not a fundamental human right?

Let’s see.  Personhood amendments and the pro-life position are about equality.  So the pro-choice position is inherently anti-equality.  Your privilege can be seen in the way you describe the issue — you think of abortion in terms of your own flesh, thereby marginalizing the bodies truly affected by abortion.

Atheist, a Feminist: His off-the-cuff explanation of privilege was probably going to be the funniest thing of the week (and FSM-knows we could probably use some funny right about now).  Now he might actually use teh google and try to shove correctish terms in all badly.  Much less funny. :(

If someone accused me of having a certain type of privilege, and the accusation was made in good faith, I would never try to ridicule or dismiss it.  I’d be interested in what the person had to say.  At the very least, I wouldn’t try to discourage people from making the accusation, as you’re doing here.

Comment #22: Nedved  on  11/02  at  09:11 PM

He is far and away my all-time favorite troll.  Did you know that if you take birth control to treat a medical condition that it doesn’t prevent pregnancy?

lol… what?

Comment #23: slingshot  on  11/02  at  09:19 PM

Lee—Pro lifers here are fond of saying that “rape is a pro-choice word” meaning they don’t believe it is something that really happens. Additionally the “right” thing to do with an accidental pregnancy is to get married. This isn’t quite advocating marrying one’s rapist, but the sentiment is definitely there.

In a lot of rural areas, it is expected that an accidental pregnancy will happen eventually because everybody knows that the majority of people are going to have sex in their teens and twenties. Accidental pregnancies are seen as the reason for marriage and many here worry that without accidental pregnancy, kids would never be forced to grow up and get married. There is a whole ethos where marriage isn’t about love but just something you do when you have to do it. For rural people, accidental pregnancy is almost seen as the pillar of civilization.

I have absolutely no idea if what I said makes any sense.

Comment #24: alysia  on  11/02  at  09:24 PM

This is the issue they have left after beating up blacks and jews went out of style. But I think eventually they’re going to have to make a choice between hating women and hating muslims.

Comment #25: paul  on  11/02  at  09:31 PM

@slingshot

Since he was banned, his posts are gone or I’d get you his exact words.  This is how Amanda summarized/responded to him, though:

Austin’s missing the point. The point is, if they give you the pill for your cramps, you will have the same ovulation-skipping effects as someone who takes it for that.  The effects of a drug aren’t dependent on what the patient wants.  If you want to get pregnant, you have to go off the pill.  I take Ortho for contraception; if my neighbor takes it to regulate her period, it still works as contraception.
In other words, Austin believes in magic.

Someone (Gracchus) thankfully copied this gem from Austin, which gives a good overview of his ability to understand…how shall I put this?...things.

When a female plant fertilizes a male seed, all it does is put biological material on top of the plant seed.  It’s like sprinkling salt on your food.  When humans reproduce, they create an entirely new, living organism.  They don’t put fertilizer or some other material on top of a seed like plants do.

Comment #26: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  09:40 PM

Athiest, A Feminist, let’s start talking about your privilege again.

Comment #27: Nedved  on  11/02  at  09:46 PM

When a female plant fertilizes a male seed, all it does is put biological material on top of the plant seed.  It’s like sprinkling salt on your food.

?? hahahaha

i know education in this country is horrible, but is there an excuse for this in the information-age?

Comment #28: slingshot  on  11/02  at  09:49 PM

Unfortunately, there’s only so many hours in the day, and so the war on women has gone largely unnoticed.

I kept waiting for some kind of “war on women” piece to turn up on at least one of the major news outlets when the curb stomp happened so soon after the James O’Keefe sex boat story.  Both were such vile and blatant examples of misogyny that I thought, this time, someone’s going to pay attention and realize women in this country are under attack.  Women being tackled to the ground isn’t (TW for violence) just the province of Superbowl ads anymore; now such acts are giving Rand Paul a bump in his approval ratings.

Based on what I’ve seen this political season and the ones leading up to it, this quote from 1984 seems to capture, with increasing accuracy, the conservative ideal for male-female relations:  “There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life.  All competing pleasures will be destroyed.  But always…there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler.  Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless.  If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—forever.”

Comment #29: ryang  on  11/02  at  09:51 PM

@Austin Nedved

Sure, let’s talk about my privilege again.  (Again?  Have we talked about it before and I have forgotten.  If so, I am really sorry.  I try to remember as much as I can of what you say because it provides hours of laughter.)  What do you want to know?

Comment #30: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  09:56 PM

alysia:

the version I’ve heard is that in red states (ahem) families make adults, while in blue states adults make families.

(And I gotta say if I’d ended up with parental responsibilities within a decade of when I started having sex, that would not have been good for anyone.  Even much older and wiser the temptation to smack some sense into offspring occasionally needs to be resisted.)

Comment #31: paul  on  11/02  at  09:57 PM

Salt on food….hahahahahahahaha.

Comment #32: JulesAboutTown  on  11/02  at  09:57 PM

Personhood amendments and the pro-life position are about equality.

Quick, define “equality” and explain how 1) conferring legal status to parts of some internal organs, placental tissue, and tumors, and 2) the position that the government should forcibly increase the morbidity and mortality of some of its citizens meet that definition.

Comment #33: ema  on  11/02  at  09:58 PM

Atheist, A Feminist: Sure, let’s talk about my privilege again.  (Again?  Have we talked about it before and I have forgotten.  If so, I am really sorry.  I try to remember as much as I can of what you say because it provides hours of laughter.) What do you want to know?

I’m more interested in the supposed justification for it.  Why do you deserve more rights than your unborn children?

ema: Quick, define “equality” and explain how 1) conferring legal status to parts of some internal organs, placental tissue, and tumors, and 2) the position that the government should forcibly increase the morbidity and mortality of some of its citizens meet that definition.

Define equality?  Really?  I suppose it would mean having equal rights and equal legal and cultural standing.

You describe the loss of privilege as “conferring legal status to parts of some internal organs, placental tissue, and tumors[.]”  This is what I call the coverture argument.  You describe your unborn child as being a part of your body.  People own their bodies and have (limited) control over them, so describing another person not just as a part of your identity but as a part of your body gives you almost complete power over them.  This description of gestation serves to confer power to one social class over another.

Your second question equally belies your obliviousness to your privilege.  You claim that equality “forcibly increase[s] the morbidity and mortality of some of its citizens[.]”  You only count yourself among citizens and marginalize the class of people the most affected by death and destruction.  Their deaths aren’t factored into the equation.

We must always remember that marginalization is one of the most powerful tools of oppression.  By definition it obscures itself.  It is our job to uncover it, reveal it, and do everything in our power to fight against it.

Comment #34: Nedved  on  11/02  at  10:13 PM

I take Ortho for contraception; if my neighbor takes it to regulate her period, it still works as contraception.

I wish people wouldn’t ridicule this. It’s just the quantum theory of contraception.

It goes like this: under the Vatican approved rhythm method, you avoid pregnancy by having sex only when the woman in question is least likely to be fertile. And when is a woman least likely to be fertile? When she’s on birth control pills, of course! So if you’re on the pill, and have not clearly stated that you take it to prevent pregnancy, any sex you have falls under the rhythm method.

Comment #35: Byronic Commando  on  11/02  at  10:19 PM

ryang, that 1984 quote pretty much sums it up.  Add in a generous dollop of The Handmaid’s Tale, and you’ve described Reichwing religious nutjob heaven.

Think of Carl Paladino as “Fred”, with Christine O’Donnell as his wife Serena Joy…

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  11/02  at  10:21 PM

The explanation of plant reproduction was absolutely my favorite moment in trolling in ages, if not ever, if the bits about how the BC pill doesn’t function as BC if the woman in question also happens to have a gynecological issue other than just not wanting to get pregnant.  Truly epic, and I’ve missed him.

Please, someone figure out how to poke him to make him say something that funny again!  Confusing privilege with focal point/key issue/bias is good, but nothing that will have people referring to it again 6 months from now.

Comment #37: Djinna  on  11/02  at  10:22 PM

@Nedved

I’m more interested in the supposed justification for it.  Why do you deserve more rights than your unborn children?

I deserve more rights than my unborn children for the same reason that I deserve more rights than the alien race that will come to colonize us in 300 years or my housecat who is able to converse fluently in 12 different languages.  I exist, and they are only hypothetical.  When they are no longer hypothetical, we can renegotiate.

Comment #38: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  10:25 PM

Nedved,

I think you are quite possibly one of the most misgynistic persons I know.  Seriously?  You’re comparing what is ACTUALLY happening in a woman’s ACTUAL body to coverture laws, where the “covering” was metaphorical?  If I were (FSM forbid) to get pregnant, it WOULD be my body that gestation would happen.  It would be my literal flesh, blood, bones, and energy knitting together flesh that would eventually be a human being.  There is NOTHING metaphorical about it.  It is in my body, of my body, and has real consequences for MY body.  To compare it to coverture laws is to ignore reality, and think that women don’t actually have the rights to themselves.  The only “privelege” involved in this discussion is the privelege of people who think they have the right to force women to give birth.

Oh, and I hate to do this (almost) because it’s sort of a gimme, but you aren’t a citizen until you are born or naturalized in the United States.  Duh. Of course fetuses aren’t included in the calculation: they aren’t people.  They’re potential people.  They’re seeds.  They’re Schrondinger’s persons.  The PEOPLE most effected by the right to reproductive freedom (because as you’ve pointed out before, this is attacking birth control as well) are women.

Comment #39: Antigone  on  11/02  at  10:26 PM

<blockquote>Atheist, A Feminist: I deserve more rights than my unborn children for the same reason that I deserve more rights than the alien race that will come to colonize us in 300 years or my housecat who is able to converse fluently in 12 different languages.  I exist, and they are only hypothetical.  When they are no longer hypothetical, we can renegotiate.<blockquote>

You seem to have dodged my question.  You knew perfectly well that I was speaking of unborn children generally, and that “your unborn children” referred to children that would exist and that you felt you would have more rights than.  Why don’t you want to answer me?

Questioning one’s privilege doesn’t have to be fun.  At the very least, have a basic respect for the practice and take the question seriously.

Comment #40: Nedved  on  11/02  at  10:32 PM

@Nedved

You knew perfectly well that I was speaking of unborn children generally, and that “your unborn children” referred to children that would exist and that you felt you would have more rights than.

You are correct that I knew you were using words to mean ridiculous things that they do not in fact mean.  I chose to respond as though you understood basic facts, which was taking your question far more seriously than it deserved and showing you far more respect than you show me.  I quite obviously wanted to answer your question or I wouldn’t have bothered.  (See…I even answered that question.  Why do you insist on asking such stupid questions?)

Some “unborn children” will certainly exist, many more will never exist.  You can’t tell which are which until they actually so exist.  Thus, they are hypothetical (just like the aliens and the brillianter-than-you kitty).

Once children exist, I will still have more rights than they do.  I am in favor of some of those greater rights and against others.  I am sure you are as well.  Unless..are you honestly saying that we should let newborns vote?

Comment #41: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  10:38 PM

“Why do you deserve more rights than your unborn children?”

Yes.  You’re comparing a living, breathing, complete, functioning human being to a theoretical.  Easy choice.

OTOH, odds are that you support capital punishment, support our illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, think welfare, Social Security, and Medicare should all be abolished, and you probably think that HCR is a plot by the Antichrist (who, of course, is the Kenyan Usurper, but we shouldn’t think you’re racist).

In the end, you’re just another “Pro Life” asshole (who is really just anti-choice) who believes life starts with ejaculation and ends at birth.  Once you’re born, your on your own and the Devil take the hindmost (which is everyone who isn’t rich, white, protestant, and male…) 

I invite you to go to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200…

Comment #42: MikeEss  on  11/02  at  10:42 PM

@MikeEss

Austin is, IIRC, Catholic.  So, I am sure that he is completely against the Devil taking at least that segment of the hindmost.

Also…choice between a real person and a not real person?  That’s silly liberal talk.  Obviously people don’t have choices beyond “Do I want to go to Heaven or Hell?”  If we all listen to Austin, then we get both: Hell here on Earth and, theoretically, Heaven after.  What’s not to love?

Comment #43: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  10:47 PM

Atheist, A Feminist: Once children exist, I will still have more rights than they do.  I am in favor of some of those greater rights and against others.  I am sure you are as well.  Unless..are you honestly saying that we should let newborns vote?

You can’t kill them though.  Some rights are accidental while others are essential.  Voting is an example of a right that is accidental and is only acquired at a certain age, like the right to drive.  The right of innocent people not to be killed as a means to an end is absolute.  There are no exceptions to it, ever.  You can’t justify killing children by saying that they have fewer rights than we do, since we can vote and they can’t.  That is an absurd argument.

MikeEss: OTOH, odds are that you support capital punishment, support our illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, think welfare, Social Security, and Medicare should all be abolished, and you probably think that HCR is a plot by the Antichrist (who, of course, is the Kenyan Usurper, but we shouldn’t think you’re racist).

In the end, you’re just another “Pro Life” asshole (who is really just anti-choice) who believes life starts with ejaculation and ends at birth.  Once you’re born, your on your own and the Devil take the hindmost (which is everyone who isn’t rich, white, protestant, and male…)

I oppose capital punishment, am opposed to the wars, support welfare, Social Security and Medicare, and am only opposed to HCR because it includes abortion funding.  I don’t know what this has anything to do with your privilege, though.

Comment #44: Nedved  on  11/02  at  10:54 PM

@Nedved

What makes you think that hypothetical people (as in not real people, non-existent people, etc.) are innocent?  Maybe most of the “unborn children” who never become actual children (most of them) are demons attempting to sneak their way into our world and so we are justly following God’s will by not making the hypothetical real.  Maybe that is exactly why God set up the system so that most hypothetical “unborn children” never become real: he is punishing Satan some more. 

I am not justifying killing children at all, but you are talking about rights in general.  If you want less ridiculous answers then ask less ridiculous questions.  Don’t try to cloak your religious dogma in the language of secular government.

The right of innocent people not to be killed as a means to an end is absolute.

Where?  Despite your opposition, we do have capital punishment and it has killed innocent people.  Furthermore, I am an innocent person and I should, by your logic, have the right not to be killed by a pregnancy as a means to the end of having babies.

Comment #45: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/02  at  11:06 PM

“I oppose capital punishment, am opposed to the wars, support welfare, Social Security and Medicare, and am only opposed to HCR because it includes abortion funding.”

...I find that difficult to believe.  Our other resident Catholic troll, Dana, certainly supports capital punishment, has at least one daughter in the Army, supports any war, anywhere, under any circumstance, hates HCR period.  I can’t say I remember what he thinks about SSI, Medicare, and welfare, but it would be safest to assume he wants them all to go away (at least until he’s old enough to benefit from them, then he’ll believe they are his god-given right…)

I’m also deeply touched by your concern for equality between social classes, apparently defined by you as the Born Class (boo, hiss! thumbs down!) and the Unborn Class (cheers! yeah! 2 big thumbs up!).  So the unborn have a corner on the civil rights market, but the born don’t even, according to you, have more than limited bodily autonomy.  Awesome!...

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  11/02  at  11:10 PM

You describe your unborn child as being a part of your body.

Please produce any evidence of extracorporeal pregnancy.

This description of gestation serves to confer power to one social class over another.

You do realize that when it comes to anatomical/physiological descriptions personal opinion and belief are irrelevant, yes? Speaking of which:

You only count yourself among citizens and marginalize the class of people the most affected by death and destruction.  Their deaths aren’t factored into the equation.

Your pronouncement that parts of some female internal organs, placental tissues, and tumors are “a class of people” is valid because, why?

Comment #47: ema  on  11/02  at  11:42 PM

When a female plant fertilizes a male seed, all it does is put biological material on top of the plant seed.  It’s like sprinkling salt on your food.  When humans reproduce, they create an entirely new, living organism.  They don’t put fertilizer or some other material on top of a seed like plants do.

Oh. My. FSM. I had forgotten the beauty. This is the line where Poe’s law breaks down—no person who was not genuinely and wholeheartedly exactly as much of a fucking idiot as Nedved is could write this. Someone could make this up? No way. Genius.

Also, re. the forced pregnancy debate, I’m a big believer in equal rights for everybody. Nedved, once I’m allowed to hook one hand firmly across the top of your pelvic bone and dig the other under your rib cage, rip a bleeding gap in your internal organs, and nestle myself in (I’ll expect you to hand me in food every few hours, too, natch, girl’s gotta eat) then you are welcome to try arguing that fetuses get as much right to my viscera as I get to everyone else’s. (Oh, I might try to clamber out your rectum when I get bored in a few months—is that cool? You’re a pal.)

Comment #48: Bagelsan  on  11/03  at  12:02 AM

Nedved

Comment #49: alysia  on  11/03  at  12:29 AM

Sorry about that post, computer went nuts. But Nedved, HRC DOES NOT FUCKING COVER ABORTION AT ALL. You oppose it because you are a dumbass.

Comment #50: alysia  on  11/03  at  12:30 AM

@Bagelsan

I had forgotten the beauty.

I think we all had.  I know I’d forgotten the salt thing.  Fucking sexual reproduction - How does it work?

@alysia

You oppose it because you are a dumbass.

Well, yeah.

Comment #51: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  12:39 AM

They should have sent…a poet…

Comment #52: Byronic Commando  on  11/03  at  12:41 AM

Atheist, A Feminist: Where?  Despite your opposition, we do have capital punishment and it has killed innocent people.  Furthermore, I am an innocent person and I should, by your logic, have the right not to be killed by a pregnancy as a means to the end of having babies.

This is the only part of your post where you were at all serious.  If you die as a result of gestating, which is extremely unlikely, you are not being killed as a means to an end.  If you are prevented from killing someone else and die as a result, you are not being killed directly (as a means to an end).  Your death would be a side effect.

If you have dependent children, you have to provide for them.  If your children will starve if you don’t go out and work, you have a duty to work and provide for them, even if your job has a mortality rate.  If you were to die on the job, you would not have been killed as a means to an end.

ema: Your pronouncement that parts of some female internal organs, placental tissues, and tumors are “a class of people” is valid because, why?

I don’t have much time today, so I’ll try to explain to you what a person is as quickly as possible.

Let’s say that there were non-human species of animals who could talk.  They would be people, as would any non-human species containing moral agents, or animals capable of choosing between right and wrong, and being held responsible for what they did.  What separates humans from animals and persons from non-person organisms is the capacity for moral agency.

Babies are not moral agents, but they are persons in virtue of their natural capacity to develop into moral agents.  Embryos and fetuses, like born infants, have the capacity to develop into moral agents, so they are people.  What you are calling “internal organs, placental tissues, and tumors” have the natural capacity to become moral agents, so they are persons.

Bagelsan: Also, re. the forced pregnancy debate, I’m a big believer in equal rights for everybody. Nedved, once I’m allowed to hook one hand firmly across the top of your pelvic bone and dig the other under your rib cage, rip a bleeding gap in your internal organs, and nestle myself in (I’ll expect you to hand me in food every few hours, too, natch, girl’s gotta eat) then you are welcome to try arguing that fetuses get as much right to my viscera as I get to everyone else’s. (Oh, I might try to clamber out your rectum when I get bored in a few months—is that cool? You’re a pal.)

My body isn’t designed for what you just proposed, so using my body in that way would manipulate the way it was designed to work in order to achieve a goal.  When you manipulate the way something was designed in order to achieve a goal, you are using that thing as a tool or a means to an end rather than an end in itself.  Obviously, the female body was designed to gestate and give birth to infants, so forced gestation and birth don’t amount to using women as tools, but rather, forced gestation and birth appreciate women as ends in themselves.

Suppose your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed.  You would have to let him physically attach himself to your body and use your body for his own survival.  He would have a right to do so, whether you consented or not.  And yet, no baby has a right to use my bodily fluids for his own survival without my consent.  Men and women’s bodies are designed differently.

The difference between what you proposed and forced gestation and birth is the difference between forced breastfeeding and forcing a man to use his bodily fluids to keep a baby alive.

alysia: Sorry about that post, computer went nuts. But Nedved, HRC DOES NOT FUCKING COVER ABORTION AT ALL. You oppose it because you are a dumbass.

It covers the birth control pill, so yes, it does.

Comment #53: Nedved  on  11/03  at  01:04 AM

oh so even pre-fetusses have more rights than women now?  You will have to excuse me, as I need to make funeral arrangements for my period.

Comment #54: alysia  on  11/03  at  01:08 AM

Also, Nedved, I am pretty sure someone is dying right now because they dont have your kidney or a piece of your liver (you don’t need it all, it regrows).

Comment #55: alysia  on  11/03  at  01:11 AM

@Nedved

If you have dependent children, you have to provide for them.

Umm…no, actually, you don’t.  If you choose to keep custody of a child, then you have to provide for that child.  If you don’t, then you don’t.  Similarly, if you choose to gestate a fetus, then your body continues to provide for it.  If you don’t, you don’t.

In addition, you are underestimating the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term.  And if a parent does choose to keep a dependent child, then the parent is not obligated to FEED THEMSELVES to that child.  This is not true of a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy.

Comment #56: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  01:15 AM

Suppose your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed.  You would have to let him physically attach himself to your body and use your body for his own survival.  He would have a right to do so, whether you consented or not.  And yet, no baby has a right to use my bodily fluids for his own survival without my consent.

You are aware that not all women produce breastmilk or are able to breastfeed, right? 

You are also aware that infants cannot actually attach themselves to a woman’s body and use it for survival without the woman’s consent?  If the woman does not consent, the infant CANNOT breastfeed on his or her own.  The infant would need a person to force the woman to breastfeed meaning that the infant would then have the right to force a person to force the woman, which would involve the bodily fluids of that other person.  Hypothetically, that would be you.  If you don’t think you have this obligation then the infant cannot have that right.

Also, what about infant allergies?  Does the infant have the right not only to get a third person to force the mother to let him or her breastfeed, but also to control the food that the mother eats?  Otherwise, that “right” that you seem to think infants have can result in a lot of dead infants.

Comment #57: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  01:23 AM

Suppose your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed.  You would have to let him physically attach himself to your body and use your body for his own survival.  He would have a right to do so, whether you consented or not.  And yet, no baby has a right to use my bodily fluids for his own survival without my consent.  Men and women’s bodies are designed differently.

Actually not true. Men are capable of breastfeeding. It involves them essentially doing nothing *but* letting a baby suck on their nipple until lactation is stimulated, but it can happen. Google it.

So, if you are alone with a baby, and you have the choice between going out to hunt for food for yourself, which the baby cannot eat, or staying put and letting the baby suck on your nipple until you lactate, even though you are starving, by your logic you must stay still and starve to death to make sure the baby is fed. After all, there’s plenty of meat on your bones, and it’s *possible* that you might successfully get lactation started before you starve to death, at which point you’d be able to feed both the baby and yourself. The fact that what;s more likely to happen is that you’ll never get lactation started and you’ll both die is irrelevant; you’re biologically capable of lactating if you just undergo absurd levels of dedication to the process, so by your logic, you are compelled to.

More to the point, if I am starving to death and you are right there, and if I don’t cut off your arm and eat it I will die, I have the right to do that, because otherwise, I’ll die. You don’t have the right to deny me your flesh if that’s what makes the difference between my life and death. After all, you can survive without an arm. I could even cut off your arms *and* legs to survive, and as long as I don’t kill you, it’s all good. I have the right to take what I need from you for my survival, no matter how hard it is on your health, as long as I will die without it and I am not directly trying to kill you.

So, Austin… try not to be caught alone on a desert island after a plane crash with me, or anyone else you’ve just explained your logic to, ok? Because you just said that human beings, by right of being human, have the right to force others to feed them from their OWN BODIES if that’s the difference between their life and death.

Yum, Austin. Yum yum.

Comment #58: Alara J Rogers  on  11/03  at  01:24 AM

Atheist, A Feminist: Umm…no, actually, you don’t.  If you choose to keep custody of a child, then you have to provide for that child.  If you don’t, then you don’t.  Similarly, if you choose to gestate a fetus, then your body continues to provide for it.  If you don’t, you don’t.

In addition, you are underestimating the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term.  And if a parent does choose to keep a dependent child, then the parent is not obligated to FEED THEMSELVES to that child.  This is not true of a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy.

You’re assuming that adoption is available.  There have been plenty of cultures where it was not.  Those parents had a duty to care for their children, even if doing so had a mortality rate.

The parent can be obligated to feed themselves to the child.  If your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed, he would have a right to do so.  Basically, you’d have to feed yourself to him.

Comment #59: Nedved  on  11/03  at  01:24 AM

@Nedved

If you want to talk about other cultures (and not, y’know the one we are currently in), then your stance that parents never have the right to kill infants is unsupported.

If your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed, he would have a right to do so.  Basically, you’d have to feed yourself to him.

The baby might have a right to breastfeed, but cannot have a right to compel me to help him or her do so.  Rights don’t work that way.

Comment #60: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  01:30 AM

Alara J Rogers: Suppose your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed.  You would have to let him physically attach himself to your body and use your body for his own survival.  He would have a right to do so, whether you consented or not.  And yet, no baby has a right to use my bodily fluids for his own survival without my consent.  Men and women’s bodies are designed differently.

Actually not true. Men are capable of breastfeeding. It involves them essentially doing nothing *but* letting a baby suck on their nipple until lactation is stimulated, but it can happen. Google it.

So, if you are alone with a baby, and you have the choice between going out to hunt for food for yourself, which the baby cannot eat, or staying put and letting the baby suck on your nipple until you lactate, even though you are starving, by your logic you must stay still and starve to death to make sure the baby is fed. After all, there’s plenty of meat on your bones, and it’s *possible* that you might successfully get lactation started before you starve to death, at which point you’d be able to feed both the baby and yourself. The fact that what;s more likely to happen is that you’ll never get lactation started and you’ll both die is irrelevant; you’re biologically capable of lactating if you just undergo absurd levels of dedication to the process, so by your logic, you are compelled to.

More to the point, if I am starving to death and you are right there, and if I don’t cut off your arm and eat it I will die, I have the right to do that, because otherwise, I’ll die. You don’t have the right to deny me your flesh if that’s what makes the difference between my life and death. After all, you can survive without an arm. I could even cut off your arms *and* legs to survive, and as long as I don’t kill you, it’s all good. I have the right to take what I need from you for my survival, no matter how hard it is on your health, as long as I will die without it and I am not directly trying to kill you.

So, Austin… try not to be caught alone on a desert island after a plane crash with me, or anyone else you’ve just explained your logic to, ok? Because you just said that human beings, by right of being human, have the right to force others to feed them from their OWN BODIES if that’s the difference between their life and death.

Yum, Austin. Yum yum.

While it is theoretically possible for men to breastfeed (anything is theoretically possible), it is the exception, not the rule.  If a man is capable of lactating, I would assume that he would have to “breastfeed” his baby.  If doing so would definitely kill him, he would not.

You wouldn’t have a right to eat me, because a) my arm was not designed to be food for another human being, so to use it in that manner without my consent would be treat me as a means to an end, and b) you are not my child, so I have no duties towards you whatsoever.  A or B stand independently of each other as total justifications for why I have no duty to let me eat you.

If embryos and fetuses are persons, they have a right to be gestated and given birth to.  I’d like to put aside the question of whether women have a duty to do this to the death (I think they do) and ask whether they have a duty to do so in situations where it will not kill them.  The answer is clearly yes.  Just as women have a duty to breastfeed their babies who will otherwise starve when it won’t kill them, they have a duty to gestate and give birth to their babies when it will not kill them.

Comment #61: Nedved  on  11/03  at  01:41 AM

@Nedved

You wouldn’t have a right to eat me, because a) my arm was not designed to be food for another human being, so to use it in that manner without my consent would be treat me as a means to an end, and b) you are not my child, so I have no duties towards you whatsoever.

Um…actually your arm was designed to be food (if we want to go all intelligent design-y) or it wouldn’t be made of meat.  You have already said that women can be used as a means to an end, why not you?  Finally, it is profoundly unChristian of you to draw a distinction between your own child and a brother or sister in Christ.  So, I must ask, since your views obviously are not the result of Christian moral teaching, where do they come from?

Comment #62: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  01:45 AM

I love the Fit For Purpose argument- women’s bodies CAN gestate, therefore FORCING them to gestate is just using them for their innate purpose. Women are just tools to be manipulated into fulfilling their designed purpose, not Actual People allowed to choose what they want to do with the myriad of actions the human body is capable of.

Aces.

Comment #63: thirstygirl  on  11/03  at  01:52 AM

What you are calling “internal organs, placental tissues, and tumors” have the natural capacity to become moral agents, so they are persons.

You are confused. “Parts of internal organs/placental tissue/tumor” is not an euphemism, it’s what an actual pregnancy is.

Comment #64: ema  on  11/03  at  01:53 AM

@Nedved

I think you’re conflating perfect and imperfect duties. Benificence, being a manifestation of Caritas, is an imperfect duty: it is your moral duty to care for the well-being of the poor, and by this logic you may rightly be lauded for giving money to a homeless man you pass on the street. However, you cannot rightly be criticized for failing to give money to every homeless man you encounter.

Similarly, a woman may be lauded for, literally, giving of herself to nurture another life. (That a given pregnancy will not be fatal to the woman in question does not mean she is not suffering and sacrificing for it: pregnancy changes bodies, and human bodies do not regenerate themselves forever.) But she may not be rightly punished for failing to do so, unless we are to make of women a permanent slave class. This would allow us to punish women for failing to hurt themselves in order to aid others. It would also, by virtue of making an imperfect duty into a perfect one, obviate the respect and veneration we have for motherhood.

And while we’re at it, why stop at her own children? If a woman can breast-feed—and if she can, she can do so indefinitely as long as she keeps it up—shouldn’t she take on the wet-nursing of as many infants as she can find?

Chesterton identified Caritas as an irrational virtue, and I am inclined to agree: he does not use ‘irrational’ as a pejorative, and neither do I. Chesterton’s love of Catholicism is intricately bound up with his love of paradox, and the paradox of Christianity is that it makes the superogatory obligatory, and the obligatory superogatory.

The law, however, is less tolerant of paradox. You cannot make benificence into a perfect duty, because it would result in suicide. A man may show no greater love than to give up his life for his friends, but Catholics who do not become martyrs have not failed to honor the virtue of Caritas. That would be insane. Similarly, that a woman could be said to have failed for choosing not to undergo a dangerous, painful and some might say disfiguring process in order to protect a life that may or may not be a person—a life she did not consent to carry in the first place—would be equally insane. Christianity does not demand suicide.

We may honor motherhood, or we may punish refusal to participate. We cannot do both.

Comment #65: Byronic Commando  on  11/03  at  02:04 AM

What you are calling “internal organs, placental tissues, and tumors” have the natural capacity to become moral agents, so they are persons.

You are confused. “Parts of internal organs/placental tissue/tumor” is not an euphemism, it’s what an actual pregnancy is.

This is something that has always bothered me. I’ve never much agreed with the idea that love begins at emergence from the birth canal. But “life begins at fertilization” never made much sense to me either.

First of all, it would mean that life begins before pregnancy, which objectively begins at implantation. As has been noted by many, most fertilized eggs end up on sanitary napkins and do not become people.

But let’s assume that life begins before pregnancy. Where is that dicrete, digital moment at which fertilization has occurred? Is it when the sperm is entirely inside the egg? What if only half the head is inside? What if the tail is still sticking out? What of the foremost portion of the sperm is the only part in physical contact with the egg?

For that matter, what about when they’re still some distance apart? What about when the sperm in question is still squirming about in the testicle that produced it?

One might argue that the fertilized egg becomes life because it will produce a human person when left alone, but this is plainly untrue. A woman’s reproductive system is a very, very specific environment, and even it won’t make life out of that egg much of the time. The zygote must be in a very specific environment, an environment that provides for it. This is the opposite of being “left alone.” That two minutes in a microwave will warm up leftover chicken korma does not mean that the leftovers will heat themselves if left alone.

To follow this to its ultimate absurd conclusion: if every egg is life, because it could be fertilized, and every sperm is life, because it could fertilize an egg, then don’t men have a moral responsibility to make sure that each and every one gets its shot at life? The production ratio of sperm to ovulations isn’t exactly even, so the man in question would have to have sex with several billion women to come close to breaking even, and he certainly couldn’t bother with anything like consent. After all, those sperm are life, and if the woman isn’t willing to let them in, they’ll die.

In short: life does not ‘begin’ with birth, or fertilization, or anywhere else in relation to any one person. Life began a long time ago, and in continues. Persons begin. Life goes on.

Comment #66: Byronic Commando  on  11/03  at  02:18 AM

Reading Nedved’s odd interpretations of the human body reminds me of pamphlet I got from some Focus on the Family-type organization about the dangers of anal sex.  (It might have been Focus on the Family, but I don’t remember and I’m not about to go seeking it out.)

Basically, the pamphlet talked about how horrible semen was for a human body and that ejaculations also tended to carry some residual urine with the semen.  Urine is, of course, way too dirty to ever enter a male anus.  Also, apparently lots of things can pass through from the rectum into the rest of the body (gasp!).  The pamphlet, of course, didn’t mention women at all, but I was left with this burning question: What the hell do they think happens inside a female body?  Every claim they made was as relevant, if not moreso, to the vagina, but somehow piv sex was okie-dokie and anal sex would kill everybody.

Nedved’s understanding of female anatomy is at that level or worse.

Comment #67: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/03  at  02:22 AM

Aw, how sweet, Austin’s learned a new word! Privilege. It doesn’t mean what he wants it to mean, but then that’s the story of his posting life here at Pandagon.

I see he’s still using the same high-school debate team logic, though.

Not that it actually resembles our Earth logic. Let’s call this assertion of his proposition A:

Suppose your baby would starve if you didn’t let him breastfeed.  You would have to let him physically attach himself to your body and use your body for his own survival.  He would have a right to do so, whether you consented or not.

And this one proposition B:

If a man is capable of lactating, I would assume that he would have to “breastfeed” his baby.  If doing so would definitely kill him, he would not.

So if a woman can breastfeed (as usual, Austin is choosing to ignore the fact that not all women are able to breastfeed), she is obliged to do so even at the expense of her life. But if a man can breastfeed, he is not obliged to do so at the expense of his life, even if it costs the child’s life. How can both A and B be true? The conditions for both are exactly the same: breastfeeding is possible; not doing so will cost the child’s life; doing so will cost the breastfeeder’s life. So why does the child’s life trump that of the breastfeeder in A, but not in B?

I guess you’ll argue “Design!” Assuming for one minute that I buy the idea that bodies are designed (I don’t): if bodies are designed, and a man is capable of breastfeeding with enough effort, does that not suggest that he was ‘designed’ to do so, and is therefore obliged to give up his life to do so?

I’m also not clear on how it makes any sense, in this ridiculous hypothetical, for the child to force its mother to breastfeed it even unto death, since once she’s dead the child will also, deprived of food, die. What if the woman has another child that has been weaned but is still dependent on her to forage for its food? (I recall that in your hypothetical, there is absolutely no other means of feeding the child.) Does the breastfeeding child still get the right to suckle its mother to death then, when it will cost its sibling’s life? How does the mother choose between the lives of her two children?

Finally, if a person is someone who has (or could have) moral agency, and said personhood is sacrosanct, why are you so determined to refuse agency to women? Agency, as I understand it, is the capacity to choose: doesn’t that also include the capacity to choose something (you see as) immoral? If there is only one possible ‘choice’, it isn’t a choice; agency is an illusion. Or are pregnant women not full persons for the duration of their pregnancy (and, presumably, breastfeeding)?

I swear, talking to Austin makes me want to get my tubes tied, just to be safe…

Comment #68: Nic_C  on  11/03  at  06:13 AM

Nedved’s understanding of the female body is about as primitive as what existed thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks thought that an entire little baby resided in each sperm, and that women added nothing to the process, being basically just flower pots for the ‘seed’.

Comment #69: ginmar  on  11/03  at  06:55 AM

Every time you think “Oh, even the batsh*t misogynists wouldn’t believe that!” along comes one to disprove your theory.

But since all these unborn children are hypothetical, I’m still wondering how one’s duty to sacrifice one’s life to ensure the birth and nurture of the one who’s going to grow up to be Hitler outweighs one’s duty to still be alive to ensure the birth and nurture of the one who’s going to grow up to be Albert Schweizer. Much less one’s duty to continue living to ensure the nurture of the already-born ones who are going to grow up to be whoever they please.

And we haven’t even gotten to the violinist-with-organ-failure argument or the absurdity of the “designed for purpose” claim—if g*d didn’t want us to be food, why did she make us out of meat? Tell me that.

Comment #70: paul  on  11/03  at  09:51 AM

Did you know, the birth control method that far and away kills the most precious fetuses is: BREASTFEEDING. Yep, breastfeeding women are much more likely to shed fertilized eggs. Unlike being on the Pill, which prevents ovulation and therefore does NOT kill the precious, adorable little fertilized eggs.

(Austin lacking this knowledge conclusively proves he knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about Natural Family Planning, or human reproduction, at all. Fucking ovaries, how do they work?!?)

Comment #71: Yawgmoth  on  11/03  at  10:24 AM

Austin/Nedved ought not to be claiming that bodies are designed, either. The RCC officially accepts the fact of evolution.

I do love the transparency with which all his arguments boil down to “women must do what I say because they are women. Men can do what we like, because we’re men”.

Comment #72: Nineveh  on  11/03  at  10:41 AM

Dammit, Panda-chan, you ate my comment. I know it was long, but couldn’t you have saved it for me to cut it down?

Many religious people (including Catholics) argue that to understand God’s intentions you must study God’s works. So, let us presume that there is a God. How has God designed women, when it comes to reproduction?

Badly, as it turns out. Human women, like human men, walk on two legs, so we have narrow pelvises. Human babies, like all humans, have big heads. These aren’t compatible and cause high levels of suffering and death to women and babies. Also, our milk, like all primate milk, is thin and requires many feedings, because monkey babies can hang on mom’s fur to get a snack when they like, but human babies are helpless and require that mom devote most of her attention to feeding them… many times a day. We hide our fertility, including from ourselves. We cannot resorb fetuses when we are starving or stressed, like rabbits do; in fact the fetus will steal the mother’s resources to survive. And human men can impregnate human women by raping them. So pregnancy is dangerous, we can’t end a pregnancy naturally when we’re in situations where it’s *very* dangerous, child-rearing is incredibly time-consuming and burdensome to women, and women cannot even control when they become pregnant by controlling when they have sex, because men can force sex on them.

But this isn’t the only thing the natural design of humans makes us suck at. We have no fur; we die in cold climates very quickly. We have crappy teeth and claws; we can’t defend ourselves against practically anything. We’re slower than every small animal and weaker than every large animal. We have only one advantage given to us by God… but it’s the only one we need. We are SMART.

Humans figured out how to make clothes and shelters to survive the winter, and how to tame fire. Humans figured out how to make weapons to kill large predators, and traps to kill small vermin. And humans figured out how to prevent pregnancy from resulting after sex, and to abort pregnancies that do result from sex. Because we are smart, and the evidence suggests that God *made* us naturally incapable of doing most of what we’d like to do and granted us the brains to do it anyway because God intended us to use our *minds* and our ability to make tools and technologies for the purpose.

A benevolent God that had not wanted human women to prevent or abort pregnancies would have made humans able to expand their birth canals further, and our milk thicker so babies would feed less, and given us the ability rabbits have to resorb fetuses when the mother cannot handle pregnancy, and given us either the ability ducks have to prevent being impregnated by rape or made our men so they couldn’t get it up without the scent of a woman’s arousal stimulating them. Since God designed human women such that pregnancy is *so* dangerous and child-rearing *so* burdensome and it is so fucking impossible to avoid these dangers because men are capable of rape, *and* also made human women smart, able to foresee death and suffering, and able to create and employ technologies to avoid them… either God hates women—which would be psychotic, if God created women—or God intended human women to use their minds to employ technologies to manage reproduction. And since approximately 100% of the human societies where human women control their own reproduction produce overall happier and healthier people—men, women and children—who live longer, more productive lives, than in societies where women cannot control their reproduction, the evidence is overwhelming.

Either God wants human women to use birth control and abortion as we need to, the same way God wants us to wear clothes, build houses, and use mousetraps… or God is a psychotic son of a bitch who no one should ever listen to.

Or God doesn’t exist. But if you think God does exist, and you look at the way human reproduction is designed, and you think God does *not* want human women to use birth control and abortion, then either you hate women or you think God does, or both. The natural design of human beings is to die when the temperature drops below 70 degrees; if you acknowledge that maybe God made us furless because God wants us to wear clothes, then you have to acknowledge that God left all those abortifacient herbs lying around for a reason, too.

Comment #73: Alara J Rogers  on  11/03  at  11:28 AM

But Alara, what about that OT line? Who could ever doubt the word of a long line of divinely inspired male writers that g*d has it in for women?

Comment #74: paul  on  11/03  at  11:36 AM

Alara, I love you.

Comment #75: JulesAboutTown  on  11/03  at  12:39 PM

Gawd hates women. I decided not to hate Gawd, just ignore him and ignorant, stick-up-the-ass morons like NedVed.


NedVed, this is the part I really like. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to change what’s coming. Between teenagers educating themselves on the Internet and chemical abortion, it will be impossible to know who’s aborting when. People like you will be left completely impotent to do anything about it.

Comment #76: LCforevah  on  11/03  at  01:30 PM

HRC DOES NOT FUCKING COVER ABORTION AT ALL. You oppose it because you are a dumbass.
Comment #50: alysia

That’s why Obama might as well have included full reproductive healthcare in the HCR bill. From birth control to emergency contraception to late-term abortion. Because the “swing voters” he’s trying to court are going to act like he did anyway, and he would have kept his base intact.

Comment #77: snobographer  on  11/03  at  11:23 PM

Hell, that’s why he should’ve kept the public option… after he compromised, they continued to wail and rend garments like he’d heralded the apocalypse and the Communist revolution simultaneously, so fuck it.

Comment #78: Selena777  on  11/03  at  11:45 PM

If I was Obama, and got that raft of shit after I’d compromised, I’d have said fuck it, bring back the public option and all the reproductive care we can handle. Give them something to cry about.
Except I wouldn’t have compromised in the first place.

Comment #79: snobographer  on  11/04  at  12:27 AM

I think they’re not actually gaining ground culturally.  You would not believe how common this sort of extreme misogyny was in the 1960s.  (Well, *you* would, but I mean lots of people wouldn’t.)  It is not considered acceptable by the under-35s, for the most part, and the numbers get better as you go younger.  As usual.

Comment #80: neroden  on  11/04  at  10:16 AM

My body isn’t designed for what you just proposed, so using my body in that way would manipulate the way it was designed to work in order to achieve a goal.

Your body is fleshy and warm, your skin is permeable. Your torso is a large cavity, with organs that slide aside and slosh around as needed. A certain portion of your organs aren’t strictly necessary for survival, in fact; those could be tossed or compressed. You very thoughtfully channel all your nutrients through this space and carefully regulate its environment. That’s pretty fantastic design for putting a person in you, imho!

And, considering the caliber of your comments here, I’m not convinced that you were designed for anything more important than being my life-support sleeping bag. :D

Comment #81: Bagelsan  on  11/04  at  08:56 PM

@81: “Life’s easy, a quirk of matter; nature’s way of keeping meat fresh.”

There’s design for ya.

Comment #82: Byronic Commando  on  11/04  at  11:23 PM
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