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Aren’t all feminist meetings held in gingerbread houses?

This article by Kate Roiphe, where she actually accuses feminists of refusing to admit that babies are cute, seems to be born out of her lifelong need to top a career where she burned out early by denying that date rape is a problem.  Really, it’s hard to top her early achievement of assuring millions of men that they’re within their rights to use a little force.  Resorting to accusing feminists of being she-monsters who refuse to admit that new mothers love their cute little babies is just a grotesque mockery of her early work in rape apologism.  (Hat tip.)

And lest you think I’m kidding, let’s put it this way: Roiphe spends most of the essay congratulating herself for being deeply in love with her baby, to the point where being apart from the baby stressed her out and she had to snub her fans at a reading to get home.*  After that, she says that feminists are intent on denying her experience.

One of the minor dishonesties of the feminist movement has been to underestimate the passion of this time, to try for a rational, politically expedient assessment. Historically, feminists have emphasized the difficulty, the drudgery of new motherhood. They have tried to analogize childcare to the work of men; and so for a long time, women have called motherhood a “vocation.” The act of caring for a baby is demanding, and arduous, of course, but it is wilder and more narcotic than any kind of work I have ever done.

God damn, those “feminists” are monsters.  And, like many monsters, they don’t exist at all.  But this sort of essay does make one wonder: What the fuck is wrong with Kate Roiphe?  I decided to write a poll for the Pandagonians to vote in:


Get your own Poll!

I feel stupid even refuting this nonsense, because it seems like Roiphe honestly believes that it’s feminists who are the reason that we don’t have generous maternity leave in America, though of course feminists are at the forefront of all fights to get that specific benefit. Roiphe’s theory would also only make sense if you believed that there’s no such thing as a woman who is a mother and a feminist.  I’ve no doubt that Roiphe’s got a bunch of “feminists are too stuck on abortion rights” pieces floating around, but I have to point out that pro-choice feminists have argued since basically forever that adoption isn’t a simple substitute for abortion rights, because giving up a baby is too hard for many women.  But who am I to bring up irritating things like facts?  Just shows that feminists all think we’re actually men, with our tedious insistence on facts and evidence. 

But wait!  There’s more!  Roiphe isn’t just going to be competitive with those feminist baby-haters out there, she’s going to prove that she’s better than false idols of American literature, such as Edith Wharton. 

I remember visiting one of my closest friends on her maternity leave last summer. We sat on a wooden bench in her garden and drank iced coffees, and gazed at her second baby. She is a writer, and we talked about how the women writers we most admired had no children, or have had one child, at the absolute most, but never two. (Edith Wharton, Virginia Woolf and Jane Austen had no children; Mary McCarthy, Rebecca West, Joan Didion, and Janet Malcolm all had one.) My friend looked down at her newborn and her tiny eyelashes. She could entertain this conversation in an academic way, but as she adjusted the baby’s hat I could see how far removed it was from anything that mattered to her. Here, sitting in the garden, looking at the eyelashes, would you trade the baby for the possibility of writing The House of Mirth? You would not.

Take that, Edith Wharton!  You think you’re so special, being one of the greatest American writers to have ever lived, but were you able to have two minutes of intercourse that resulted in conception?  Novels, schmovels.  Try pulling off a feat that only happens 4 million times a year in the U.S. (and that’s only with human beings—-many other species of animal, basically most, are also better than Edith Wharton).  Those classic writers think they’re so special, but nothing can give one that glow of superiority over all other beings like looking at your baby can.  A baby!  Who’d have thunk making one of those was possible?

You know, most of the time, I think it’s really great that we have modern medical advancements that allow us to keep our family sizes small and our infant survival rate high.  It’s a tremendous public health boon (especially when you consider that 300,000 babies were dying a year as recently as 1920, mostly of malnutrition). And I even support the side effect of this—-as people have fewer babies, they tend to get more precious about the act of getting pregnant and having a baby, as the explosion of expensive baby carriages, lactation coaches, birth plans, and midwife vs. doctor wars demonstrates.  Again, I figure this is for the best.  Children, while numerous, all deserve to be treated like they’re special and given every advantage so they become happy, productive adults. 

But once in awhile you read something like this, and after banging your head against the wall for a couple minutes, you still want to say, “Are you fucking kidding me?”  Someone should read this back out loud to Kate Roiphe.  She’s as annoying as someone who thinks they personally discovered erotic love.  Except worse, because she had to take potshots at phantom feminists who are lurking around in the shadows to deny that her baby is adorable. 

I can’t wait for future Double X feminist-baiting posts.  Next week: “Why Won’t Feminists Admit That Hunting Children For Sport Is Wrong?”  And I’ll be forced to point out that we have always said that you should consume all child flesh you kill, because Mother Earth cries when we are wasteful. 


*Or that’s how she explains how she got through a reading without signing any books. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:31 PM • (114) Comments

I can’t help but of Freud.

Yep, I’m a mean feminazi.

Comment #1: Lesly  on  08/26  at  06:16 PM

Think of Freud, rather.

Comment #2: Lesly  on  08/26  at  06:16 PM

I hate it when I hear people say “mothers who have careers and their own lives don’t really love their precious baybeez”, because then what does that say about fathers who are expected by the same group of people to have a good career?  Are we to believe that fathers really just don’t love their children?  It’s offensive to both men and women.

Comment #3: bananacat  on  08/26  at  06:20 PM

I suppose the theory is only women are besieged by hormones and urges to tell them, “Take care of the baby.”  Which strikes me as largely untrue. There’s a lot of evo psych nonsense, but what is true is we’re probably hard-wired to be entranced by babies.  That’s one reason that domestic animals evolved to look more baby-like. The cuter they are, the more they get fed.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  06:23 PM

I hate this sort of strawmanning.  It happened a lot in the run-up to Afghanistan too: “Why don’t feminists care about women’s rights in Afghanistan?”

I like kids.  I think they’re cute, and I’m occasionally jealous over that bonding thing that mom’s sometimes get.  I also think puppies are cute- I’m not demanding that you should have one, or less than a person if you don’t like them.  Nor would I force one on you if you were allergic, but went into a pet store.

Comment #5: Antigone  on  08/26  at  06:25 PM

Katie Roiphe is the sort of woman who cheats with her friend’s husband. Oh, wait, she really did do that. Does she even have any female friends? Or did she stab them all in the back in her relentless quest for attention? Her career seems to consist of nothing but stabbing other women in the back in some way and then crowing about it in print.

Comment #6: ginmar  on  08/26  at  06:29 PM

You either have to think the author has no real of what reality is and needs to feel persecuted to feel whole or is a lyign sack of shit.  Is there really another choice?

Comment #7: Robert  on  08/26  at  06:31 PM

Obligatory link to Garfunkel & Oates: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJRzBpFjJS8

Comment #8: Tobasco da Gama  on  08/26  at  06:43 PM

Katie Roiphe is the sort of woman who cheats with her friend’s husband. Oh, wait, she really did do that. Does she even have any female friends? Or did she stab them all in the back in her relentless quest for attention?
She’s a spoiled, highly privilaged woman who is manifestly NOT a feminist imho. As a very happy Childfree woman I resent how some “feminists” assert that you aren’t a real feminist unless you’re a mother, which once again reduces women to their genitals. Screw her. And really? She slept with her friends husband? Nice.

Comment #9: pitbullgirl65  on  08/26  at  06:45 PM

It’s called “oxytocin”, Katie, and it will pass.

Comment #10: BadKitty  on  08/26  at  06:46 PM

I am going to dig into Roiphe’s essay and find a point which actually deserves addressing.

A published author of my acquaintance once told me she’d “rather be Lousia May Alcott to some kid than Mom.  Louisa always understood me better than Mom did.”

Comment #11: Dr. Psycho  on  08/26  at  06:46 PM

What’s frustrating is that feminism has done so much for children.  Birth control and legal abortion alone were a huge boon to children, in ways that are hard to see now.  But when children have to compete with each other for limited resources, that often means that they lose out on education, nutrition, and as Sanger pointed out in the link I provided, they may even lose their lives.

Right now, illegal abortion is ruining children’s lives.  Most women who have abortions, legal or not, are already mothers, which means that if an illegal abortion kills a woman, then she leaves her children behind.  Having your mother die means, for many children around the world, having to drop out of school.  Illegal abortion is the number one cause of maternal mortality in many places in the world, with complications from having children too young or having too many too quickly right up there.  Feminism saves women’s lives, and therefore it saves children’s lives.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  06:50 PM

Damn. There she is again. Just when I finally scrubbed all knowledge of her continued existence from my brain, the idiot re-appears.
I recall in the dim mists of the 20th Century when I was in college, there was a discussion of Rolphie’s insane statement that she didn’t know any victims of date rape. Except, as people who were in Harvard (?) at the same time as Katie had told their actual friends, she did. They just didn’t talk to her about it (quelle surprise, I know).
Now she assumes she has a unique bond with her munchkin, one experience by no one except every frikkin decent parent (bio or otherwise) on Earth as well observed at least by everyone they know. Forget her not knowing any women, she doesn’t know any other people.

Comment #13: histro-geek  on  08/26  at  06:50 PM

P.s.: The poll doesn’t seem to be working. I can vote, but the results don’t update.

Comment #14: Tobasco da Gama  on  08/26  at  06:54 PM

Baby eyelashes are amazing.

Well, after they grow in, that is.  Newborns don’t really have much in the way of eyelashes.

You know when it’s really easy to obsess over them?  When your house isn’t about to be repossessed.  And your job and/or your partner’s job arent’ in jeopardy.  When you get enough sleep b/c someone else can take a turn with the baby or you can nap b/c you don’t have to return to a full time job immediately.

You know who’s working toward giving women the rights to employment and decent maternity leave and health care?  Feminists.

I also adore how Roiphe dismisses her friend’s opinions.  She can tell just by looking at her that the conversation about successful authors is meaningless to her.  Her friend can’t possibly have an opinion that doesn’t fit in with Roiphe’s worldview, and if she does, well, it doesn’t really matter to her.  No doesn’t mean no, right? 

Look baby eyelashes!

Comment #15: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/26  at  07:04 PM

A published author of my acquaintance once told me she’d “rather be Lousia May Alcott to some kid than Mom.  Louisa always understood me better than Mom did.”

I love my mom, but that is brilliant.

Comment #16: asdf  on  08/26  at  07:06 PM

She is a writer, and we talked about how the women writers we most admired had no children, or have had one child, at the absolute most, but never two.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together might consider that an argument for feminism. Assuming, of course, that it were factually true, and not self-indulgent bullshit. Yes, Katie Roiphe may not be able to write her way out of a wet paper bag, but by god she HAS A BABY!!!!!!

By the way, what is it with “please like me, boys, I hate women” crowd and the distinctly feminist practice of writing under their maiden names?

Comment #17: mythago  on  08/26  at  07:13 PM

In a way what she does there is the perfect wingnut reframing exercise. She takes feminists’ concern for things like maternal mortality rates, maternal poverty, lifetime loss of earnings, etc. - in short, numbers - and she pretends that that is what they’re interested in, rather than admitting the truth, which is that the numbers are just a means to an end which is deeply empathetic, i.e. improving and even saving women’s lives.

That’s not that different from the health care protesters trying to pretend that all the Dems care for is the bottom line, numbers and statistics, rather than seeing health care reform for what it is - a humanitarian necessity.

I think that by dehumanising feminists in this way, Roiphe is trying to cover up the same kind of fundamental flaws that the health haters are: deep seated insecurity and resentment, a basic inability to empathise or show compassion, and a conviction that those who are not like her are against her (based on the fact that she knows that she is against all those who are not like her).

Comment #18: MarinaS  on  08/26  at  07:15 PM

Leaning on really, really old authors is a neat trick.  Think that perhaps women had to choose back then in ways they don’t have to now?

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  07:17 PM

I had to pick “her baby smells funny” because ALL BABIES STINK! Yes, even your baby. That “new baby smell” is just not pleasant. Ugh, stick me in a room filled with kimchi, old salmon, and chicken shit instead of a home with a new baby.

Comment #20: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/26  at  07:19 PM

TheLady, that, and she’s got a schtick. Publishing “how much I love my baby” isn’t going to get you column inches in the kind of faux-edgy chattering-class publications that admire Roiphe’s background. If you can connect your personal peeve up to feminism, though, you’re in. It’s the same thing Sommers did with her book about how the public-school system is run by boy-hating feminists; she simply wouldn’t have had the ready-made audience if she had simply written a “woman’s book”.

Comment #21: mythago  on  08/26  at  07:19 PM

Anyone who thinks they understand what parenthood is like after six weeks is self-centered and insane.

Also, Toni Morrison has two children. Or do non-white authors not count?

Comment #22: Av0gadro  on  08/26  at  07:23 PM

I don’t want to go to the article. Does she note that the obvious reason Wharton et al. achieved publication was because they weren’t burdened with childbirth at periods in history when it could be an all-consuming—not to say sometimes fatal—occupation? Lucky Kate, she’s alive in a period when neither childbed fever, a pregnancy per year, nor social disapproval can keep her from scolding the people who made her career possible. Perhaps she’d rather be signing her pieces “By a Lady.”

Comment #23: brettvk  on  08/26  at  07:24 PM

Anyone who thinks they understand what parenthood is like after six weeks is self-centered and insane

Word.

Feminist and mother of 3 here. I guess I don’t exist to Roiphe.

Comment #24: lostmypassword  on  08/26  at  07:26 PM

Oh and by the way, Katie? Mary Wallstonecraft also only had one child, because guess what? She died from complications days after the event.

Just sayin’.

You fucking idiot.

Comment #25: MarinaS  on  08/26  at  07:27 PM

lostmypassword, it’s not that you don’t exist. It’s that your baby isn’t the most special perfect baby in the whole world and I just invented motherhood and wheee!

Somebody better warn her that Caitlin Flanagan already beat her to “I have a nanny so I can beat you all up for being mommies who receive a regular paycheck”, because I see THAT one coming from Roiphe a mile a way.

Comment #26: mythago  on  08/26  at  07:29 PM

Leaning on really, really old authors is a neat trick.  Think that perhaps women had to choose back then in ways they don’t have to now?

This reminds me of Kristen Hersh, for some reason. A brilliant woman who, sadly, had to choose between motherhood and a music career…oh, wait she didn’t. She has four children AND a music career. Could have anything to do with the gains of feminism, nope, nosiree.

Comment #27: echolalia  on  08/26  at  07:30 PM

Wharton’s easy to pick on, because she’s exactly the sort of woman that Roiphe’s audience finds threatening: a woman born to privilege who shrugged off her duties to give up her life in order to tend to a man of privilege.  From what I understand, there was a lot of resentment towards Wharton for this at the time.  I imagine if she were alive today, Flanagan would castigate her 2-3 times a year.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  07:30 PM

Dude, all I can say is, I gave birth to twins and had very little childcare early on. And I love ‘em and all that, but whenever I got a chance to get out of the house without them, I went running and screaming, “I’m FREE! I’m FREE! Thank God I’m FREE!”

Sure, moms love their kids, but this notion that it is a vewy speshul love that can’t be shared by any man or other type of non-mom just perpetuates the very nonfeminist belief that only mothers can raise children. (And thus puts the entire burden on someone like me, necessitating my escape from insanity by running screaming out of the house.)

Comment #29: Lexie  on  08/26  at  07:30 PM

Sylvia Plath left behind a legacy as a great American poet, a novelist…..and two children.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  07:34 PM

I find it’s much easier to juggle a career and children when Daddy is the primary caregiver. Oops! There goes my gig as a pop-culture writer for ‘edgy’ websites!

Comment #31: mythago  on  08/26  at  07:41 PM

I also have hormones.  there is a certain time of the month when it seems, for all I can tell, that I have higher testosterone levels than usual.  All I can think about is fighting, and my sexuality shifts for a few days from a heterosexual to a more homosexual orientation.

WHY WON’T FEMINISTS ADMIT THIS????

Comment #32: scratchy888  on  08/26  at  07:43 PM

Kate Chopin had 6 children. Jamaica Kincaid had two. Doris Lessing had two.  Adrienne Rich has three. 

Katherine Anne Porter wanted children, but was plagued by infertility, miscarriage, and stillbirth.


I dithered around a lot of bios of other writers, and the one thing that really stands out is that there’s a higher percentage of lesbians in the women of letters community than the population at large.  This isn’t a coincidence, I’m sure.  It certainly contributes to the writer-as-childless stereotype, but for reasons that seem profoundly unfair.  (Not that lesbians can’t have children, but in the past, they mostly did not.)  I’d like to see Roiphe struggle with the role that lesbians play in all this.  Would she be as homophobic as she is sexist?  Or maybe we can actually talk about how it’s not so much the demands of children but of male dominance that squash women’s ambition?  I think Virginia Woolf had something to say about that.  Roiphe should remember—-she claims to be a fan.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  08:06 PM

Or at least, lesbians are well-represented in the annals of amazing fucking writers.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/26  at  08:08 PM

everything that needed to be said about this moron has already been said, so i’ll just use this post to agree with MAjeff.  seriously, they smell.

Comment #35: chareth cutestory  on  08/26  at  08:09 PM

“One of the minor dishonesties of the feminist movement has been to underestimate the passion of this time, to try for a rational, politically expedient assessment. Historically, feminists have emphasized the difficulty, the drudgery of new motherhood. They have tried to analogize childcare to the work of men; and so for a long time, women have called motherhood a “vocation.” The act of caring for a baby is demanding, and arduous, of course, but it is wilder and more narcotic than any kind of work I have ever done.”

No.  What the feminist movement has done is recognize that the love a mother has for her child is often used as a weapon against women, demanding that an entire lifetime be spent in servitude (or severely diminished expectations) in exchange for the “narcotic” experience of new motherhood.

Comment #36: East of Weston  on  08/26  at  08:16 PM

i hav three kidz sew i kant rite. Or bee a fimin…feman… harry-legd harpie babeehater.

Comment #37: TheRealistMom  on  08/26  at  08:19 PM

As I said in a thread about this article over at Shapely Prose, this is all not to mention that getting angry at Virginia Woolf for not having kids is particularly cruel.  She was rather mentally fragile, and she, her husband, and all and sundry around her thought that the physical and mental stress of pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood would send her over the edge.  Woolf didn’t have children on purpose, because it likely would have killed her earlier than she got to it herself, not because she found her writing more important.  And then there are women—Julia Child, anyone?—who really, really wanted children, but were unable to have them, but who did have spectacular careers.

Comment #38: rowmyboat  on  08/26  at  08:20 PM

we talked about how the women writers we most admired had no children, or have had one child, at the absolute most, but never two

Toni Morrison, Kate Chopin, Jamaica Kincaid, Doris Lessing, Adrienne Rich and them other lady writers don’t count.  For some reason she doesn’t admire them.

Comment #39: CParis  on  08/26  at  08:23 PM

Pitbullgirl, that’s a nice strawfeminist; could have come straight from Roiphe herself. You’re not a feminist unless you have kids? Really? Truly? I mean, me with all my childfree time must have missed that shit.

Comment #40: ginmar  on  08/26  at  08:24 PM

Waitaminutewaitaminutewaitaminute…

I thought the vocation of “writer” was one plagued by alcoholism and mental illness.

Roiphe just admitted that her baby is a narcotic. What sort of insidious thing is she suggesting, then? After all, she’s a mom, and she just published this essay. Is there actually the subtle hint that women should use babies as a controlled substance as a means of summoning the creative muse?

Is someone going to have to stage an intervention to get her to realize that she has all the strength and creativity she needs to smacktalk feminism without freebasing infants?

Oh, Katie, Katie, Katie. (shakes head sadly)

Comment #41: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/26  at  08:24 PM

uh, ginmar ...? You might need a re-read, there.

Comment #42: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/26  at  08:25 PM

Ursula Le Guin. Three children. Famous writer *and* feminist.

I rest my case.

Epic fail for KR.

Comment #43: means are the ends  on  08/26  at  08:40 PM

Just in case any of the meetings actually are held in gingerbread or otherwise delicious houses, can I get on the list?  Gingerbread is so yummy.

Comment #44: libdevil  on  08/26  at  08:40 PM

That new baby smells lasts all of five minutes after a bath before it gets subsumed by the smell of sour milk and dirty diapers.  I vastly prefer toddlers myself.  Maybe I’ll just adopt.

Leaning on really, really old authors is a neat trick.  Think that perhaps women had to choose back then in ways they don’t have to now?

It’s cute that Roiphe mentioned Jane Austen since Austen didn’t get married at all.

Lucy Maud Montgomery fell deeply in love with a farmer but ultimately rejected him because she couldn’t be a writer and a farmer’s wife.  She eventually settled for a marriage that would allow her to continue writing.  Knowing that, I find it interesting that Anne Shirley marries the man she loves and does not become a writer.

Another reason why women writers might have been reluctant to marry and have children is that they may have had values ahead of their time.  I suspect that was Austen’s reason; she couldn’t settle for the crapfest that was marriage in her day.

Comment #45: keshmeshi  on  08/26  at  08:43 PM

She is a writer, and we talked about how the women writers we most admired had no children, or have had one child, at the absolute most

I love how one child is classified as basically the same as no children. Now, I don’t have any kids, but I feel like there might be a pretty significant difference between having 0 children and having 1 child.

Comment #46: Lauren O  on  08/26  at  08:44 PM

Mary Wallstonecraft also only had one child, because guess what? She died from complications days after the event.

While your point is still valid, Mary Wollstonecraft had two daughters. Fanny Imlay and Mary Shelly.

Comment #47: Sarcastro  on  08/26  at  08:46 PM

means,

Roiphe doesn’t ADMIRE her.  Therefore she doesn’t count.  No more than her friend’s opinion.

It’s Katie’s way, or else.  Or else you just aren’t really concerned about the matter.

Sorry, I’ve given birth three times, and the product of those births are wandering around the room completely impeding my abilty to write or think or want a life outside of them.  Because EYELASHES!  And my kids are the SPECIALIST AND MOST FABULOUS EVER, so, you know, I can’t really concentrate.  Plus some sort of weird odors emanating from the smallest one are compelling me to head her toward the bath.

My only confusion is how Katie ever managed to write this hit piece, since she’s strung out on baby.  How could she pull herself away?  What kind of monster is she?

Comment #48: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/26  at  08:48 PM

Oh god, she’s going to be one of those mothers who proudly claims she hasn’t had a night out alone with her husband in two years, because a real mother couldn’t possibly leave her baby in someone else’s care for a few hours.  Then they’re going to get divorced eventually.

Comment #49: Gena  on  08/26  at  08:49 PM

Would she rather be childless and write the House of Mirth OR have a kid? Hello, false dichotomy much. I note that she had the time to tear herself away from her pwecious to bang out this manifesto.

Comment #50: PixelFish  on  08/26  at  08:59 PM

Argh. As a writer who probably won’t have children, I hear way too often how motherhood is so much richer and more rewarding than anything I’ll ever accomplish.

I kind of hoped Roiphe’s career would continue to disintegrate (who knew she even still *had* book signings) but she’ll probably go on through the years creating fake feminist ideologies to attack. Although I have to say that finding out she screwed her friend’s husband is oddly satisfying.

Comment #51: Veronica  on  08/26  at  09:00 PM

Those classic writers think they’re so special, but nothing can give one that glow of superiority over all other beings like looking at your baby can.  A baby!

Now now, that’s not what she said.  TWO babies, minimum.  Just “a” baby, singular, is still the same thing as hating babies.

Comment #52: ICV2  on  08/26  at  09:00 PM

Oh my gosh though, Roiphe’s *right!*  I was totally bonded with our son just minutes after he was born.  I slept with him on my naked chest (the only way he’d sleep when I didn’t want his crying to wake my partner.)  I loved his smell.  And I can’t begin to describe the near-synesthesia experience when I was away from him of hearing his whispery breath in every gentle sound from leaves in the trees to the whisking of my kitchen knife against the sharpening steel as I prepared breakfast, supper, or lunch for my partner.  I stayed home with him, and later his sister, while my partner went back to work, back to school, and back to work again.  When I worked I worked from home so I could be there with them.  I sang to them every night, read them stories for hours.  Changed most of their diapers, got up for them when they cried in the night, held their hands while they drifted to sleep, sat with them in the hospital when each was ill.  Although I’ve done wonderful things in my life, and hope to do more, when I die my absolute most treasured memories, happiest accomplishment, and deepest honor will have been to be there while they grew into their own adulthood in the world.

Of course I’m a man and not a woman so what’s her fucking point?  Without feminism I just can’t see how I’d have had the honor or privilege or pleasure of being a primary caregiver to my children.

And just to be really, really clear it’s not like my partner and I have switched traditional-gender roles.  Except for middle-of-the-night duties she’s been right in there with them too.  There are a number of ways to balance parenting inside a relationship and as far as I can tell feminism makes all but Roiphe’s old-fashion traditional one more possible.

—-

Note to Roiphe: 17th-Century American activist Anne Hutchinson had 16 children.

Comment #53: figleaf  on  08/26  at  09:02 PM

You know, in previous generations it was women who wanted careers and couldn’t have them who got abnormally attached to their offpsring and started living through them.

And sure, those months before your baby starts sleeping are all-absorbing. It’s called sleep deprivation. And it can be kinda fun if you don’t have absolutely any other crucial commitments. I can’t wait till KR has a second one and abandons a screaming toddler because she ooh cute just has to go be with her newborn.

She really has gotten a lot of mileage out of hating other women in public…

Comment #54: paul  on  08/26  at  09:04 PM

Here, sitting in the garden, looking at the eyelashes, would you trade the baby for the possibility of writing The House of Mirth? You would not.

come ON stupid women! have that 2nd 3rd or 4th baby! You really don’t want to actually follow your dreams. Only FEMINISTS think that they’ve got things more important to do than pop out babies.

But seriously… how is that an either/or choice?

*sigh*

Comment #55: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/26  at  09:12 PM

Oh, and I clicked on the two “responses” linked at the bottom of Roiphe’s piece, strangely expecting a different take, but was told instead that the anti-Roiphe choir was “off-tune” and that her piece was personal, not political.  That strikes me as disingenuous considering the Wharton discussion and an entire paragraph about the “dishonesties of the feminist movement.” That paragraph refers to the actual honesty of admitting that childcare is hard, as opposed to the Victorian propaganda about motherhood being a sacred calling, yadda yadda. It’s not dishonest to note drudgery where it actually exists. By noting the hard parts of childbearing and raising, feminists were giving value to the previously unacknowledged labour. (Or at least, only acknowledged on one level.) Basically noting that it’s hard work to climb the mountain doesn’t negate the beauty one might find should one attempt the mountain, but it is part and parcel of honest disclosure. Does Roiphe really want women to buy into the “mommyhood is sunshine and daisies” myths without the disclosure of the less fun parts?

Also, not ALL women get the wonderful baby high Roiphe seems to be experiencing. A LOT of women experience post-partum. Blogger Dooce is in part, popular because of her honesty about post-partum and motherhood….but Roiphe seems to glide over the existence of these women and their experiences. They don’t seem to exist to her.

Comment #56: PixelFish  on  08/26  at  09:15 PM

I love how one child is classified as basically the same as no children. Now, I don’t have any kids, but I feel like there might be a pretty significant difference between having 0 children and having 1 child.

I’m reminded of the “whafer theen meent” from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life somehow…
also Mrs. Doyle’s exchange with Father Ted trying to get him to have cake with his tea….

Mrs. Doyle: Just a tiny little cake; you won’t even feel it go in - you won’t even know you’re eating it. Ted: I will know I’m eating it, Mrs Doyle.

etc.

Comment #57: Danica Lefse Queen  on  08/26  at  09:21 PM

MP: she resents how some feminists…blah blah blah. Which is bewildering because Roiphe is about as feminist as I am Republican. Who are these ‘some’ feminists?

Comment #58: ginmar  on  08/26  at  09:30 PM

Funnily enough, Katie’s mom Anne Roiphe was both a famous feminist novelist and (obviously) a mother.  Methinks Katie is working out some rather twisted mommy issues of her own.  “I could’ve had more siblings if you’d just stopped writing, Mom!”

Comment #59: Blue Jean  on  08/26  at  09:36 PM

1. That poll made me guffaw.

2. DoubleX sucks, sucks, sucks.

3. Thank you for this post—I had not seen this sad article from Roiphe snarked harshly enough!

Comment #60: jenlillith  on  08/26  at  09:37 PM

I’ve had twins.  I also had postpartum depression serious enough to require being hospitalized.

Look, some women are all entranced by new-baby-smell and rocking-baby-in-the-rocking-chair-by-the fire.  Great for them!  Other women are bored as heck by being reduced to diaper-changer and staring at the baby all day long and feeling their brains turn to mush, and vastly prefer a) toddlers, b) small children, c) middle-schoolers or d) high school age children.  Great for them too!

They can all be equally great mothers, though.  I hate-hate-hate how women who fall into the first category think that it’s a universal feeling.  It isn’t, and it’s one of the myths of motherhood that the baby stage is so very wonderful.

Comment #61: Susanne  on  08/26  at  10:03 PM

I guess that means that JK Rowling, who gave birth to two children while writing the best-selling children’s book series of all time, is a Bad Mommy for not devoting herself to chronicling every single moment of her kids’ lives instead of finishing the Harry Potter series.

Comment #62: Ellid  on  08/26  at  10:12 PM

ginmar—she had the word feminists in quotes, not the word some… indicating pretty much exactly what you’re arguing.

Comment #63: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/26  at  10:28 PM

Katie’s got a really bad case of Mommy issues. Her mom’s a feminist, and Katie rebelled against her and her principles in a big fat way with her disgusting ideas about date rape. She’s an arrogant little thing, too, and the thing about banging her friend’s hubby is true.

Comment #64: ginmar  on  08/26  at  10:28 PM

The act of caring for a baby is demanding, and arduous, of course, but it is wilder and more narcotic than any kind of work I have ever done.


Raising a child is a lot like smoking crack . . . .

Comment #65: Emily  on  08/26  at  10:37 PM

This reminds me of Stella Gibbons’ take on women novelists’ approach to childbearing in “Cold Comfort Farm” (great book- by a writer who was also a mother):
  “A third type of woman novelist combined literature and motherhood by writing a good, serious first novel when they were twenty-six; then marrying, and having a baby, and the confinement over, writing articles for the Press on ‘How I Shall Bring Up my Daughter,’ by Gwenyth Bludgeon, the brilliant young novelist, who gave birth to a daughter this morning. Miss Bludgeon is in private life Mrs Neil McIntish.
Some of Flora’s friends had been exceedingly frightened, not to say revolted, by these painstaking descriptions of confinements; and had been compelled to rush off to the Zoo and bribe the keepers to assure them that the lionesses, at least, got through the Greatest Event of Their Lives in decent solitude.  It was comforting, too, to watch the lionesses cuffing their fubsy cubs about in the sunlight. The lionesses, at least, did not write articles for the paper on how they would Bring Up their Cubs.”

Comment #66: Isabella  on  08/26  at  10:51 PM

#64: Banging her friend’s husband, huh? That would explain why the book signing she fled stemmed from an introduction she wrote to Thy Neighbor’s Wife, that silly paean to wife-swapping. Or is that more anti-feminism?

If you took out her crapping on feminism, that piece would be a pile of sentimental goo that no editor would touch. She’s the heir apparent to Camille Paglia.

Comment #67: Bitter Scribe  on  08/26  at  10:55 PM

but what is true is we’re probably hard-wired to be entranced by babies.

The exact hormone is called relaxin.  Even grizzly bear mamas get all mushy because of it.

Comment #68: phylosopher  on  08/26  at  11:04 PM

I’m confused - Rohpie had a kid a while ago, who must be five or six by now, and then got divorced (i have no idea if this was before or after hooking up with her friend’s husband) and a few years back was writing articles about how she liked being a divorced mom….http://nymag.com/news/features/2007/sexandlove/30928/.

is this new piece an older recycled one, has she had another baby herself, or has she truly run out of things to talk about?

Comment #69: nell  on  08/26  at  11:07 PM

And then we can look at Mary Wollestonecraft, Emily Duchatelet and indirectly, Margaret Fuller, who were killed by their children (or the process of having them) at the height of their careers.

Comment #70: phylosopher  on  08/26  at  11:10 PM

Emily:

dunno if it’s like smoking crack, but it sure as hell gets you strung out and interferes with activities of daily living. Oh, and it sucks down all your money.

The real question, as with so many other Token Women, is why anyone publishes this shite. (The last piece I saw from KR was a supposed review of some “stripper memoirs” where she slagged some better writers pretty much for not having died romantically in a garret.)

Comment #71: paul  on  08/26  at  11:10 PM

I kind of hoped Roiphe’s career would continue to disintegrate (who knew she even still *had* book signings) but she’ll probably go on through the years creating fake feminist ideologies to attack. Although I have to say that finding out she screwed her friend’s husband is oddly satisfying.
Comment #51: Veronica on 08/26 at 08:00 PM

So is she certain who the baby daddy is?

Comment #72: phylosopher  on  08/26  at  11:21 PM

eww.  Read the article, it is a new baby .... where is the mention of her older daughter and the pleasures of balancing more than one child? And, is it just me, or is it vaguely creepy that she’s rhapsodizing about a son while being silent about her existing girl-child?  Whom I know about only because she has published articles about that child as well.

Ewww eww and ewww? and I love the sidebar link to her earlier rant about other women using their baby’s pics for their facebook icons.  Trash other women for not being ________ = get published?

Comment #73: nell  on  08/26  at  11:26 PM

Oh! Oh! If she doesn’t attain Wharton’s status or artistry, she can blame it on the kid! And let’s face it, Katie Roiphe sure ain’t no Edith Wharton.

Boy, that kid will need therapy.

Comment #74: ginmar  on  08/26  at  11:36 PM

It’s Palin creepy: Palin goes on and on about her boys but her daughters? She could give a shit. “This is Willow. This is Bristol.” No resume, no ages, no bio, just flat….“This is the worthless product of nine months’ labor.”

When I was in Iraq, I met this woman who told me she had four children. Come to find out she actually had eight—-four daughters.  How on earth could you write about one child without mentioning the other one? Or is she tired of that toy, too?

Comment #75: ginmar  on  08/26  at  11:39 PM

let’s face it, Katie Roiphe sure ain’t no Edith Wharton.

Are you kidding? She’s no Ellen Warren.

Comment #76: Bitter Scribe  on  08/26  at  11:52 PM

1) The reason people find it hard to set down a six-week-old baby and get on with life probably has to do on some level with how six-week-old babies are barely-processing brains in squirming, larval bodies and for most of human history were just looking for a way to up and die. Whatever the origin, the anxiety is for many people real, which is why everyone who opposes long maternity leave and paternity leave is pretty much recatalogued as a huge jerk in my mind.

2) Look, I’m a baby person. I experience euphoria from new baby smell. There are few things in life that I find better in life than letting some lactase-comatose neonate drool on my neck - seriously, neurochemically, there are maybe three. I used to get paid quite well for this (partially because babies know when you like them and tend to go to sleep immediately, as opposed to knowing when you’re about to snap because you’ve been stuck with said baby for seventy-two hours with no breaks. That’s when babies refuse to sleep because you’re making them nervous. Babies are great.) I like children in general, I enjoy caring for them, and it is draining, demanding work about on par with being a waitress on a night when the restaurant’s slammed. It is understandably difficult for many people to write effectively in that environment, which is one reason why babysitters are so well-paid.

Whatever, obviously she’s making random shit up because feminism stole her ice cream in the third grade and then told all the girls she smelled funny.

Comment #77: purpleshoes  on  08/26  at  11:54 PM

Hey people with the smelly babies, you give them a bath, rub lotion on them, and then put your nose and mouth on their tummies and go nom, nom, nom, nom…

Comment #78: jackspratt  on  08/27  at  12:02 AM

Okay, finding out that this is her second child and the first one doesn’t even rate a mention now that she’s past helpless infanthood is creeping me the fuck out.

Comment #79: Mnemosyne  on  08/27  at  12:16 AM

Katie’s got a really bad case of Mommy issues. Her mom’s a feminist, and Katie rebelled against her and her principles in a big fat way with her disgusting ideas about date rape.

I’m trying to picture Katie’s thought process; “Sure, I’ll never write a good book, (let alone a great one),
but that doesn’t matter—noooo! It doesn’t matter because I Produced! A! Baby! and no woman has ever done both…

oh, wait…my mom has done both…

Shit.”

Comment #80: Blue Jean  on  08/27  at  12:24 AM

Katie’s a cynical little media….Well, I can’t say slut or whore, because I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either concept. What do you call a woman who does genuinely revolting shit to other women to earn a living? Including her own mom and it seems her own daughter? There was a period where that kind of backstabbing was real popular and amongst a certain type of man or women it’ll never really go out of style. But there’s got to be a term for it and back stabber doesn’t come close to really describing the sheer viciousness of it.

Comment #81: ginmar  on  08/27  at  12:48 AM

Historically, feminists have emphasized the difficulty, the drudgery of new motherhood.

Gosh, it’s too bad there’s not a gigantic cultural structure bent on convincing women that motherhood is entirely blissful and necessary for living fully.

Wait, wasn’t there once? Pa ... patri-something. It’ll come to me eventually.

Comment #82: kristin  on  08/27  at  01:01 AM

Does anyone else see the undertones to the conversation in the garden? She visits her writer ‘friend’ who gave birth to her second child in the past few months, and had a conversation about no good women writers had 2 kids or more.
She says ‘we’ talked about it, but I suspect it was more “I said it and then watched my friend squirm because I just told her that her career is effectively over. Then thought gloatingly to myself, ‘that’s right straighten your baby’s hat cause that’s all you’re good for now.’ “

Comment #83: Starfoxy  on  08/27  at  01:09 AM

Brilliant Starfoxy.  That’s certainly a more compelling read than the one she gave.  I know that I tend to become very interested in other things when people are being mean and snarky to me.

I would love to hear the next conversation that the friend had, recounting her awful visit with Katie.  “Why am I still her friend?  She’s awful!”

Comment #84: Eileen  on  08/27  at  01:15 AM

They have tried to analogize childcare to the work of men; and so for a long time, women have called motherhood a “vocation.” The act of caring for a baby is demanding, and arduous, of course, but it is wilder and more narcotic than any kind of work I have ever done.

The first thing I thought when I read that was “classic cognitive dissonance”.  I mean, we’re talking Psych 101 stuff.  Decades ago, researchers found that when they assigned study participants boring shitty tasks and paid them for it, the subjects freely admitted that the tasks sucked but, hey, they were getting paid for it.  When they had the subjects do them for free, they would act like they got some intrinsic joy out of doing the shitty tasks. 

So either I’m a rabid baby-hater (which I’m pretty sure I’m not) or Katie doth protest a bit too much about how much she loves being a mom.

Comment #85: DonnaDiva  on  08/27  at  01:47 AM

Try Judas, ginmar.  As in: so have those thirty pieces of silver made up for the fact that you have no friends, and are seemingly on your way to no family?

Comment #86: phylosopher  on  08/27  at  01:54 AM

Okay, finding out that this is her second child and the first one doesn’t even rate a mention now that she’s past helpless infanthood is creeping me the fuck out.

Ok, me too.  Seriously creeped out.

It’s one thing to slam other women; it’s another to slam your own daughter.  What a fucked up person!

Comment #87: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/27  at  02:03 AM

*Or that’s how she explains how she got through a reading without signing any books.

She didn’t write any books, either. She wrote an introduction. That’‘s like expecting people to want your autograph because you wrote a jacket blurb.

In fact, her whole article reeks of narcissism. I have the sense that this baby is the first being other than herself whose existence she has ever acknowledged, and that’s because he emerged from her body.

I don’t know why she has forgotten the existence of the first baby. Perhaps the “new baby smell” wore off.

The good new baby smell comes from the scalp, by the way. I could smell that for an hour.

Comment #88: Hector B.  on  08/27  at  03:07 AM

Babies are about as ‘cute’ to me as a herpes sore. So they have eyelashes. Woo. My boss has eyelashes - I don’t find her cute either. This article is just more pro-natalist, back-to-the-kitchen, you-are-no-more-than-your-ability-to-procreate crap served up as empowerment.

Also, I will bet you anything that someone like Roiphe - an overprivileged, married white woman - has a nanny. It’s easy to rhaposidize about Teh Joys of New Baby when you don’t have to do any of the dirty and tiring grunt work to look after it.

Comment #89: killerrobot  on  08/27  at  03:59 AM

Everything other than childcare is “the work of men”?  Oh, fuck you, Kate Roiphe.

One of my favorite writers is Shirley Jackson, who had four kids and wrote wisely and wittily about raising them.

Comment #90: Shaenon  on  08/27  at  05:52 AM

A friend of mine (who’s a mother of two and pregnant with a third) linked to this on Facebook. At first I saw the headline and groaned. Then I read it, and thought it was actually better than the offensive headline implied. Yes, quite self-indulgent, but she does manage to fit in a few objective comments about how she looks to others, and admissions that she’s basically insane and equivalent to a junkie.

I particularly liked this admission near the end:
“I recognize dimly that this is what is annoying about parents, and certainly about our current parenting culture: that subterranean stream of self-congratulation. One did, after all, do nothing more than millions of drunken teenagers on an average Saturday night to make that baby, which is not technically an achievement.”

Comment #91: Rob Funk  on  08/27  at  08:23 AM

Argh. As a writer who probably won’t have children, I hear way too often how motherhood is so much richer and more rewarding than anything I’ll ever accomplish.

In Katie’s case, I hope this is true.  Or at least, that she’ll be better at parenting than she is at writing.

Comment #92: Kyso K  on  08/27  at  09:22 AM

So Katie is still trying to stomp on her mother’s grave before she actually dies…. the Roiphe who I remember and read was author and FEMINIST Anne.

Comment #93: PurpleGirl  on  08/27  at  09:40 AM

It’s a nice way of loading baby care back on to women, if it’s framed as “you women are just naturally hormonally programmed to luuuuuuuv rocking / feeding / changing baby.”  The corollary is “well, and we men wouldn’t want to see you be anything other than extraordinarily happy,” which translates into “well, of course you’re stuck at home with baby while I go out with the guys, and while you’re home, you might as well do the dishes too.  Later!!”

In a blinding flash of the obvious, some women luuuuv that new-baby thing.  Other women hate it.  Some women love classical music.  Other women hate it.  Some women like swimming.  Other women hate it.  In other news, women are people, too.  Film at 11.

Comment #94: Susanne  on  08/27  at  10:37 AM

Sarcasto @ #47:

Oi vey. I do stand corrected, Sir, and thank you for setting me straight with such grace.

*muttermutterresearchbeforefeministrage!muttermutter*

Comment #95: MarinaS  on  08/27  at  10:54 AM

  “but what is true is we’re probably hard-wired to be entranced by babies.”

The exact hormone is called relaxin.  Even grizzly bear mamas get all mushy because of it.

 

Actually, relaxin is what makes mamas’ joints feel like mush (and woman only produce it during pregnancy; it stops after delivery).  It’s the prolactin and oxytocin released during breastfeeding that turn on the emotional goo.

Comment #96: Pomme  on  08/27  at  11:00 AM

I guess that means that JK Rowling, who gave birth to two children while writing the best-selling children’s book series of all time, is a Bad Mommy for not devoting herself to chronicling every single moment of her kids’ lives instead of finishing the Harry Potter series.

and therefore making her (and be extension, her kids) some of the richest people in Great Britain. She has more money than the Queen! Bad Mommy, making all those millions of pounds and depriving your kids of the character-building poverty.

Comment #97: Vir Modestus  on  08/27  at  11:29 AM

Actually, Katie Roiphe is objectively wrong, because *my* babies are the most perfect precious creatures in existence, and her babies only come in a dim third place.

I clocked in 98,000 words last year. Of course they were fanfic so I can’t officially publish them, and they weren’t all on the *same* work, but I’m pretty sure, given my outputs this year, that now that my babies are old enough for day care and my older children are old enough that I don’t have to stress about them getting home after school, I will be ramping back up to the “two or three novels’ worth of writing per year” level by the end of this year. I even plan to try to get an original work finished up and shipped off for hopeful publication.

I’ve got 4 kids. And my babies were much, much cuter than hers. I know this for a fact even though I’ve never seen her babies because my babies are the cutest babies that ever existed, because I invented motherhood. Take *that*, Katie Roiphe.

Comment #98: Alara J Rogers  on  08/27  at  11:44 AM

A published author of my acquaintance once told me she’d “rather be Lousia May Alcott to some kid than Mom.  Louisa always understood me better than Mom did.”

I really like that.

One of the minor dishonesties of the feminist movement has been to underestimate the passion of this time, to try for a rational, politically expedient assessment. Historically, feminists have emphasized the difficulty, the drudgery of new motherhood. They have tried to analogize childcare to the work of men; and so for a long time, women have called motherhood a “vocation.” The act of caring for a baby is demanding, and arduous, of course, but it is wilder and more narcotic than any kind of work I have ever done.

So is X job - be it performing, lawyering, playing sports, writing, whatever. Does this mean it’s not a vocation? No.

Comment #99: Rebecca  on  08/27  at  11:47 AM

That poll utility is pretty delightful.  I was impressed that you could even highlight the slanty text after you vote.

Comment #100: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  08/27  at  12:06 PM

Personally, I far prefer new car smell to new baby smell, but I’m an evohl feminist.

Comment #101: attack_laurel  on  08/27  at  12:25 PM

Or maybe we can actually talk about how it’s not so much the demands of children but of male dominance that squash women’s ambition?

Bingo!  We took in several of my fathers’ nephews and a niece while we kids were barely out of the rugrat stage, and my two brothers were autistic/a handful as well.

My father, not being one to squash ambition,  facilitated Mother Avengers’ acting in productions at the community college where he worked or the local community theater, as he was home at night grading papers so she could have a life beyond us kids.

At the age of 8, I was drafted to hold book for her, which is helping someone learn their lines, so that by the time the show opened, I’d be spouting cue lines without the book, and she’d spout her lines back at me.  She’d sometimes claim I knew the cues better than her fellow thespians.

Mother Avenger even took a writing class, I’m going to have to organize her ‘papers’ one of these days I suppose…....

Comment #102: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/27  at  12:49 PM

Me also too on being creeped out learning this is the second kid. Although it does give her an excuse now.

Oh, and just a comment on the Adrienne Rich and three kids thing: she records in one of her books that she tells a new acquaintance at a dinner party that she has three sons, and the response is “Oh, so you work for the army.”

Comment #103: paul  on  08/27  at  12:50 PM

</blockquote>Argh. As a writer who probably won’t have children, I hear way too often how motherhood is so much richer and more rewarding than anything I’ll ever accomplish.</blockquote>

Yeah, if having children is so amazingly rewarding more than anything else, then why did people drastically cut back on having children the second they could (because of birth control)?

Comment #104: bananacat  on  08/27  at  01:39 PM

My son was adorable as a baby.  But I was relieved to go back to work after 3 months.  Child care was drudgery to me.  (Sure, it’s fun when it’s new, but after the first 48 hours with hardly any rest, it becomes a grind.)  If I could afford to hire a round-the-clock team of nannies, I would have done it in a heartbeat.

“Wild”?  Wild is what’s staring back at you from the mirror after the first 48 hours.

“Narcotic”?  Well—I did used to feel a bit spaced out while changing the Nth soiled diaper between 3 and 4 a.m.

Comment #105: Redisca  on  08/27  at  01:50 PM

What do you call a woman who does genuinely revolting shit to other women to earn a living? Including her own mom and it seems her own daughter? There was a period where that kind of backstabbing was real popular and amongst a certain type of man or women it’ll never really go out of style. But there’s got to be a term for it and back stabber doesn’t come close to really describing the sheer viciousness of it.

The term I like to use is “sister f***er.” It’s any woman speaking out against the best interests of women, even including her own self-interest, so that boys’ll like her and stuff. Usually, she’s the token girl in the boys’ club (or wants desperately to get there), and she’ll say anything she thinks the boys will like in order to cement her place. This could well be a case of, “I’m not one of them threatening feminists! I’m completely nonthreatening! I’m fucking maternal, people! I’m the embodiment of idealized motherhood, people!”

Sister-f***ing also often comes from a place of self-hatred; Sister F***er Type III is the one who’s failed to be the kind of woman she wants to be and so criticizes every woman who is like that in an effort to pretend she’s always wanted to be this way. For KR, this could be the source of “I don’t want to be a famous writer! Who wants to be a famous writer, ew? I have a baby! Screw you, famous writers, and your lack of babies!

Comment #106: ACG  on  08/27  at  01:57 PM

But ACG:

Note how she’s always writing about not wanting to be a famous writer.

Comment #107: paul  on  08/27  at  02:35 PM

Don’t forget to make a broth out of the baby bones! Baby soup is delicious.

Comment #108: heresiarch  on  08/27  at  02:36 PM

Pitbullgirl, that’s a nice strawfeminist; could have come straight from Roiphe herself. You’re not a feminist unless you have kids? Really? Truly? I mean, me with all my childfree time must have missed that shit.

I think you misread pitbullgirl’s comment, ginmar.  She said that she herself is a childfree woman, and I presume she considers herself to be a feminist.

I think you’re both on the same page on this.  And you’re both right.  One’s feminist cred is not dictated in any way, shape, or form by whether or not they have children.

Comment #109: DTG in STL  on  08/27  at  02:37 PM

I’m a child-free feminist woman, and I honestly don’t understand what makes babies cute. I will concede that Asian babies are cute, though, but I don’t really see the appeal of most Caucasian babies. Lemme go prepare my oven and start laying out the gingerbread shingles on the roof.

Comment #110: Sadie Morrison  on  08/27  at  05:13 PM

Great conversation, but I should point out that Anne Roiphe may be about as “feminist” as Katie.  See this NYT interview linked from the wiki page Blue Jean linked.

Comment #111: somebody42  on  08/27  at  07:14 PM

God, if I have to read one more damned thing about Katie Roiphe it’ll be too fucking soon.

Comment #112: ginmar  on  08/27  at  08:59 PM

“but what is true is we’re probably hard-wired to be entranced by babies. ” 

Sorry, can’t agree with that one.  Babies are loud, sloppy and smelly blobs, of no interest to me at all. That changes when they get old enough to walk and speak, but the first six months they’re nothing more than a fetid diaper with arms.

Comment #113: KathleenM1  on  08/29  at  02:50 AM

Pitbullgirl, that’s a nice strawfeminist; could have come straight from Roiphe herself. You’re not a feminist unless you have kids? Really? Truly? I mean, me with all my childfree time must have missed that shit.
Ginmar: did you read my comment correctly? I said I’ve heard other women say that, NOT ME. Sweet Jesus, I’m CF myself.

Comment #114: pitbullgirl65  on  08/29  at  10:29 AM

Argh. As a writer who probably won’t have children, I hear way too often how motherhood is so much richer and more rewarding than anything I’ll ever accomplish

I swear that this meme got restarted during the 80s. I think it was a way to put women back in there rightful place e.g. barefoot and pregnant.
That fucking Hope on that yuppie showThirtysomething was a good example of this.

Comment #115: pitbullgirl65  on  08/29  at  10:42 AM
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