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Next entry: Newest wrinkle in having it both ways Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Laugh At Me And Pat Yourselves On The Back” Edition

Arizona’s hateful climate gets uglier

If anyone thought the Arizona “papers please” law was going to be the end of the wildly racist legislating going on in Arizona, well, I wish I could say I had good news for you.  But I don’t.  Phase I appears to harassing adult Hispanics in Arizona, and now Phase II is an assault on children, teachers, and education in general.  One law is aimed at killing the Mexican-American studies program in the Tucson Unified School District.  Another is a policy that is aimed at harassing and possibly firing Hispanic English teachers.

On the latter bill, there is some serious cause to worry that good teachers will be fired for nothing more than their race or ethnicity.

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

There’s a “for the children” excuse, of course.  Supporters are all about pretending that they want to make sure the kids learn English the “best” way.  But it looks like the truth is the opposite, and that this policy is an attempt to keep students who don’t speak English from learning it, which in turn can keep them behind in their classes and shut them out of higher education.  How do I know?  Because this policy is aimed at firing teachers that were hired expressly to teach Spanish-speaking students how to speak English.

In the 1990s, Arizona hired hundreds of teachers whose first language was Spanish as part of a broad bilingual-education program. Many were recruited from Latin America.

Then in 2000, voters passed a ballot measure stipulating that instruction be offered only in English. Bilingual teachers who had been instructing in Spanish switched to English.

English-only is classic wingnuttery, right down to the bad faith.  The stated intentions are to help kids, but the reality is that the initiatives are about making sure students don’t learn any other skills while learning English.  It’s a racist program that aims to make sure the children of immigrants have just enough skills to do manual and service labor, but no skills that would make middle class aspirations a possibility. 

And that’s bad enough.  But what is the “ungrammatical” shit?  Everyone is an “ungrammatical” speaker in someone’s eyes.  I’m sure that you could make the case that speaking Texan is “ungrammatical”, with the “y’alls” and the “fixing tas”.  And worse even is the accent thing.  That’s just classic use of subjective judgments to make racist policies with plausible deniability attached.  Who determines what the “right” accent is?  A lot of English speakers on the border have Spanish-tinged accents and use Spanglish slang, even if their first language is English.

The bill that’s passed is apparently a direct attempt to kill a Mexican-American studies program. Which is kind of odd, because the bad faith right wing cover story for a racist law is written directly into the bill’s language, which seems to me like it would be hard to enforce.

HB 2281 would make it illegal for a school district to have any courses or classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, are designed primarily for students of a particular ethnic group or advocate ethnic solidarity “instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.”

It also would ban classes that “promote resentment toward a race or class of people.”

There’s nothing about Mexican-American studies that does anything like this language describes.  This language reflects the lies that racists tell about these kinds of programs in order to justify their antipathy to any kind of curricula that teaches anything but white supremacy, or suggests to students that Mexican-Americans have a cultural heritage that’s worth honoring.  I’m not really sure how they’re going to obey the letter of the law, which is ostensibly non-racist, while pursuing its racist spirit. 

What this policy and this bill demonstrate is the underlying concept of the “papers please” bill, and basically all legislation like it.  Proponents really do believe that Latinos have nothing to offer, and they often treat them like they’re not even human beings.  Immigrants especially get this kind of treatment.  Having grown up in the Southwest, I can tell you that a lot of the racism that white people express has an undercurrent of insecurity to it.  Their belief in the natural superiority of Anglo culture is threatened at every turn by the cultural blending that happens on the border.  The very thing that makes border living kind of neat, which is the unique culture that emerges from this blending, offends them.  (Though they’ll still eat the tacos.)  The history of the area is different than the standard history that Americans are taught in school, and the border with Mexico is a constant reminder that the land they live on used to belong to Mexico.  And while to non-wingnuts, this isn’t really a big deal, wingnuts tend to get a little unhinged thinking about that.  They start concocting conspiracy theories.  When I was living out there, the list of things that would set white racists off would blow your mind:

*Signs in English and Spanish, or even just in Spanish.
*People speaking to each other in Spanish while waiting in line next to you. 
*Newscasters that roll their Rs while pronouncing Spanish words.  (Yes, I heard someone get pissed about this more than once.)
*Any kind of art, either publicly or privately owned, that celebrated Mexican-American history, culture, or individuals.  (When UT Austin put up a statue of Cesar Chavez, I couldn’t help but think about how many conservative parents taking their kids there would be unable to bitch about it when they saw it.)
*Bilingual education.
*Any talk of bilingual education for native English speakers.  (This one pisses me off to no end, for personal reasons.  The bilingual nature of El Paso should be treated as an asset in the educational system, and English speakers should be able to walk out of 6th grade fluent in Spanish.  But noooooooo.  That would piss off the racists, so this opportunity is not exploited.  Thus, yours truly never really learned more than a little Spanish.)
*Night clubs, grocery stores, or clothing stores that cater to an immigrant customer base.
*Tejano music.
*Spanglish.  (Personally, I love Spanglish. I get a kick out of all the various ways that people build a slang that borrows from both languages, and often makes up entirely new words.) 
*Voter registration drives in heavily Hispanic neighborhoods.

A lot of white people in the Southwest are furious that Mexican-Americans continue to keep going about their business, instead of becoming some historical novelty that can be put on a shelf and ignored.  So they create a literal culture war (literal in terms of culture, not war). The notion that it’s all good, and that there can be cultural differences and people can learn from each other and get along?  That’s what they absolutely cannot abide.  It’s really kind of amazing how much energy is spent just flipping out over this stuff.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:43 PM • (76) Comments

I think you should always write “papers please” as “papiers, bitte”, just to make it clear.

Comment #1: Eric_RoM  on  04/30  at  06:29 PM

Papiere, Bitte!  The “s” plural is English…

Comment #2: tannenburg  on  04/30  at  06:33 PM

Yes, they have it figured out nicely, don’t they?  Get angry and stomp your feet and insist people have to learn English if they’re going to live in the U.S. and then do your best to stop them from learning English.  Why don’t they just say, “We hate brown people”.  It’s so much easier.

Comment #3: BadKitty  on  04/30  at  06:38 PM

Everyone is an “ungrammatical” speaker in someone’s eyes.  I’m sure that you could make the case that speaking Texan is “ungrammatical”, with the “y’alls” and the “fixing tas”.  And worse even is the accent thing.

I’m hoping that a liberal Arizona parent will submit a complaint against an appropriate target (a white, bigoted teacher or administrator who speaks with a thick southern accent and dialect) to prove this point about the bad faith underlying this law: “I’m sorry, but I just don’t want my child learning from someone who speaks like an extra from Deliverance. It distracts her from her education.”

The bilingual nature of El Paso should be treated as an asset in the educational system, and English speakers should be able to walk out of 6th grade fluent in Spanish.  But noooooooo.  That would piss off the racists, so this opportunity is not exploited.

Meanwhile, y’know those professors and T.A.s with “funny accents” who teach STEM disciplines at Arizona universities?  In their home countries they were encouraged to learn a second language, because in the rest of the civilised world being bilingual is regarded as a bloody advantage.

But then, so is having a passport, which 80% of the all-‘Murkin yahoos who support this kind of legislation don’t.

Papiere, Bitte!  The “s” plural is English…

It’s more “ihre papiere, bitte”, delivered in the pseudo-polite yet demanding tone of the policeman or petty bureaucrat. Often followed upon examination of the docs by the classic: “your papers are ... [pause, followed by raised eyebrow and insinuating smile] not in order.”

Comment #4: Gracchus.  on  04/30  at  06:50 PM

Here’s an interesting new wrinkle in the Arizona “Papers, please!” debacle:

Michael Weiner, the Executive Director of the Major League Baseball Players’ Association, released a formal statement on behalf of MLBPA staunchly denouncing the idiotic AZ law, saying that it could potentially have a negative effect on hundreds of Hispanic professional baseball players who visit the state every summer when playing against the Arizona Diamondbacks.  I think the pressure to force the 2011 MLB All-Star Game out of Phoenix if the law isn’t repealed could pick up a lot of steam, particularly if a big group of Hispanic baseball stars take the position that they will not participate in the game in AZ if the law is still in effect.  Imagine an MLB All-Star Game without Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, or Mariano Rivera on the rosters?

27% of all Major League Baseball players are Hispanic.  And of the 30 MLB franchises out there, only one team doesn’t have a single Hispanic player on their current roster - the Arizona Diamondbacks.

Comment #5: DTG in STL  on  04/30  at  07:02 PM

In their home countries they were encouraged to learn a second language, because in the rest of the civilised world being bilingual is regarded as a bloody advantage.

Having, like Amanda, grown up in a part of the US where it should theoretically be easy to grow up bilingual, it burned me to no end when my parents confessed that I could have been bilingual in French, but my grandparents vetoed it because they were worried that it would be a liability later in life.

Yeah, because speaking BOTH of the world’s most widely spoken languages would be soooo limiting, you know?

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  04/30  at  07:13 PM

Another place where MLBPA could deal a heavy blow to Arizona would be to threaten to pull the Cactus League out of the state for spring training - 15 of the 30 MLB teams have their spring training every year in AZ, and if they drop hints that they won’t allow their Hispanic players to be subject to harassment in that state, they could see Nevada or New Mexico take all of those March tourism dollars out of the state.  I would love to see some high-profile Hispanic players refuse to travel to AZ to play for fear of potential harassment, and have the player’s union back them up on it.

Comment #7: DTG in STL  on  04/30  at  07:14 PM

Wayul, sheeeoot, honey.  Doan that leeyuv out all thayem suthun teechuz who write with uh pin and pincil?

Comment #8: phylosopher  on  04/30  at  07:14 PM

Yeah, because speaking BOTH of the world’s most widely spoken languages would be soooo limiting, you know?

I agree with your sentiment on the value of bilingual eduction, but if you are referring to English and French as the two most widely spoken languages, that’s innacurate.

1. Mandarin Chinese: 1.12 Billion
2. English: 480 Million
3. Spanish: 320 Million
4. Russian: 285 Million
5. French: 265 Million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers

Comment #9: DTG in STL  on  04/30  at  07:21 PM

To those talking about grwoign up bilingual - I’m pissed - my 1st and 2nd eastern European (late 1800 migration) were of the same mind - use the native tongue to keep secrets from the kids, then stop speaking it once they started to learn it.  Frick, it not only teaches you another language, but also, subconsciously the mechanics of grammar.  And once you have those mechanics, being tri-quad etc, lingual becomes a snap. 

Shorter Arizona - we always want our kids to speak any language like ugly Americans and make high school French an absolute hell for them. Idiots!

Comment #10: phylosopher  on  04/30  at  07:23 PM

Apparently AZ has already amended the bill so that simply having a reasonable suspicion isn’t enough to make a stop, and making the stop is confined to legal officers, not any state official.

As for accents…doesn’t everybody in AZ speak with an accent?  They planning on balancing their budget by firing ALL of the teachers?

Comment #11: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/30  at  07:31 PM

DTG in STL:

Ah, but how many countries have French as an official language?  That might be a more relevant statistic than sheer number of speakers.

Comment #12: Falconer  on  04/30  at  07:35 PM

God. Damn.

How are these things getting passed? Who’s writing them? Who’s sponsoring them? Does anyone have a link to a good blow-by-blow of exactly how Arizona has suddenly broken out in such a rash of stupid? I’ve been following the situation in Maricopa County - with rising horror - for a while now, but this all is new.

P.S. I know I make much of my country roots, but there is not a single teacher in my elementary or middle school who would be able to pass the strictest interpretation of that law. And that’s because English is full of dialects whether you’re an immigrant or not. We could treat it as part of our culture, or we could get a hate-on.

Comment #13: purpleshoes  on  04/30  at  07:35 PM

Yes, but you’re alot less likely to find a Mandarin Chinese speaking person outside of mainland China.

Anyhow, yeah, these laws are just disgusting.

Comment #14: Crissa  on  04/30  at  07:38 PM

DTG, the beauty of it though, is that if you speak Mandarin, English and Spanish, you can speak to 90 to 95% of the world, since so many other countries require English as a second language.

Now I have to go work on Mandarin.

Amanda, years ago, I was standing in line in a California DMV because I had been too lazy ass to make an appointment in time to renew my license. I, and the man in front of me were the only two white people in one of the lines—everybody else was Asian or mestizo. Of course, everyone else was speaking to each other in several other languages, not just Spanish. He had to make a comment about how everything has changed, and that nobody is bothering to learn English. I was sorely tempted to respond in Spanish but I decided not to be a smartass. It goes entirely over my head why it bothers some people that others close to them in some line are using something other than English. What do they think it takes away from them?

Comment #15: LCforevah  on  04/30  at  07:45 PM

P.S. I know I make much of my country roots, but there is not a single teacher in my elementary or middle school who would be able to pass the strictest interpretation of that law. And that’s because English is full of dialects whether you’re an immigrant or not. We could treat it as part of our culture, or we could get a hate-on.

This law if enforced to the letter means that no one except those with PhDs/MFAs in English linguistics/writing/lit would be allowed to teach in their public school system.  LOL

Good luck getting enough teachers who comply with those “standards” to fill those classrooms….especially considering the crappy social climate, pay, and working conditions over there.  rolleyes

Comment #16: exholt  on  04/30  at  07:54 PM

“Good luck getting enough teachers who comply with those “standards” to fill those classrooms….especially considering the crappy social climate, pay, and working conditions over there.”

...it’s a feature, not a bug. 

Fewer teachers means less education.  So there are more uneducated proles. 

If you’re going to pay uneducated prole wages, you need to make sure there are plenty of uneducated proles to fill those jobs.  This is just one of the many reasons there is a segment of wingnuts who would happily do away with public schools altogether…just to keep some people “in their place”...

Comment #17: MikeEss  on  04/30  at  08:13 PM

DTG beat me to the correction. 
The 2 most widely used 2nd languages, however, are probably French, English, Spanish and German as they are the typical languages of world wide commerce, science/technology, etc.
Official languages?  Since only English, French, Indonesian, German and Dutch speaking people seem to worry about what is “official” and enshrine it in law, that would likeluy be pretty meaningless.  Basically, only those trying to forge national and/or cultural identities over disparite groups or world spanning empires care to enforce such things.

Comment #18: helen w. h.  on  04/30  at  08:18 PM

I do think that the ability to speak with good English grammar should be a requirement for ANYONE that intends to teach English. I disagree that people using bad grammar is any indication that they do not know good grammar, but it matters when trying to teach English. I also think that a reasonable standard can be set for grammar when applied to teachers of English that is neither too lax nor too prescriptive. These people do teach grammar as part of English classes, of course.

HB 2281 would make it illegal for a school district to have any courses or classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, are designed primarily for students of a particular ethnic group or advocate ethnic solidarity “instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals.”

It also would ban classes that “promote resentment toward a race or class of people.”

It might be good for any place that wants to promote diversity to try not to do many of the things this language declares to be illegal. The things described here also actually don’t happen. Maybe it is because I was at a University in Minnesota (in, not of, it was another state school), but I remember at least half of the students in my Ethnic Studies classes [I minored in Ethnic Studies, we didn’t have a major] being white and white me never felt like the classes were designed for the ethnic group we were discussing. The classes hardly promote ethnic solidarity either. From my memory, they all simply talked about the historical events and how non-white people reacted. There were new events that I learned about and I learned a lot about how other people think. This language would not make any Ethnic Studies class illegal, so if they are trying to do that, well, massive fail…..

It is probably a bad idea to allow a class focused on the overthrow of the US Government in a state school, so at least this prevents stupid teabaggers from crying out that they need classes at Universities too. The comment about treating students as individuals also belies a complete misunderstanding of what actually happens in these classes.

The people writing this law are morons. Part of this is a ban on things that don’t even exist.

Comment #19: Ursula  on  04/30  at  08:18 PM

Sorry, I was not clear; among those 4 languages are the likely most widely used 2nd languages.

Comment #20: helen w. h.  on  04/30  at  08:19 PM

You know, it’s too bad that a legal mechanism to put a state in receivership can’t exist without being abused horribly. This would be a great case for it.

Comment #21: BrianX  on  04/30  at  08:22 PM

Ah, but how many countries have French as an official language?  That might be a more relevant statistic than sheer number of speakers.

There’s also the fact that French and English are seen, worldwide, as the global lingua francas (linguas franca? Good thing I’m not a teacher in Arizona…).  They’re the two official languages of the UN and a great many international NGO’s.  Sure, other languages are spoken as a first language by more people, but if you want bang for your bilingual buck, French is much more dominant globally than Mandarin or Russian (and maybe Spanish, too).

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  04/30  at  08:33 PM

@16

Personally, I prefer it if people having audible conversations around in me in queues or on public transport do it in another language, because then I can tune it out more easily.  If I can understand the words, it becomes harder to treat it as background noise and I don’t really *want* to listen to other people’s personal conversations.

Judging from people who have complained to me about others not speaking English, the problem arises from a combination of control-freakery, conformism and paranoia.  Speaking a foreign language is an obvious sign of otherness, it also means that an English-only speaker can’t check on what they’re saying and may feel excluded from participation.  There is no way to break into the conversation with your own opinion, or to correct what you feel is a wrong opinion, if you can’t speak the same language. 

You have also lost a significant way to police ‘those people’ if you can’t understand what they’re saying to each other - and, who knows, they could be saying anything.  They might be conspiring with each other, they might be discussing how to cheat the silly whites, or planning horrible secret rituals and orgies of domestic pet eating - it’s amazing what paranoid explanations otherwise normal people can come up with.

Comment #23: Theadosia  on  04/30  at  08:36 PM

I do think that the ability to speak with good English grammar should be a requirement for ANYONE that intends to teach English.

My assumption is that the “bad grammar” they’re referring to is either colloquial Spanglish or nonstandard forms that are common among people whose first language is Spanish.  Which actually might be helpful to an extent in an ESL context because as long as the teacher understands and is able to teach the difference to the students, those colloquialisms might bridge the gap between English and Spanish. 

Especially considering that, at a basic level, the students don’t necessarily need to learn precise BBC English, they need to learn to communicate in the local language of a new place.  Most of the local English speaking people they meet won’t speak grammatically or with neutral accents, anyway.

Comment #24: The Opoponax  on  04/30  at  08:51 PM

You know I had an Italian teacher in high school who had a speech impediment (and English was at least her third language).  And another who was straight off the boat—no really, she missed the first couple days because she wasn’t in the US yet.  And yet we all learned Italian as well as you might expect a bunch of American high school kids to learn it. 

And, anyway, aren’t non-native speakers often better at grammar than native speakers?  Since they actually learn the grammar of a language, rather than absorbing it without really understanding what’s going on.

Fuckwits.

Comment #25: rowmyboat  on  04/30  at  09:00 PM

Bowling to raise money for abortion is like bilingual education…

Comment #26: Ursula  on  04/30  at  09:12 PM

People tend to think I am foreign *because* I use excellent grammar for most of my speech. I also enunciate precisely.

I’ve been trained to speak through speech lessons designed to minimize a lisp; followed by acting lessons, followed by a lot of public speaking lessons.

Americans do NOT usually speak with good grammar.

“‘Her English is too good,’ he said, ‘which clearly indicates that she is foreign. For while others are instructed in their native language, British people aren’t. So although she may have studied with an expert dialectition and grammarian… I can tell that she was born *Hungarian*!’”—My Fair Lady

So this can be used against ANYONE who speaks normally.
And Richard Feynman, possibly the greatest physics professor ever? With his Brooklyn speech and tendency to interrupt himself midsentence, he’d be out the door.

Fuck teh stupidity.

Comment #27: Samantha Vimes  on  04/30  at  09:25 PM

This stuff reminds me of the crap my mother put up with as a young immigrant in the late 40s and early 50s.  She was so shunned by the American kids, her only friends as a child were the children of Mexican day laborers.

Comment #28: keshmeshi  on  04/30  at  09:41 PM

From the WSJ articles linked by Amanda:

State auditors have reported to the district that some teachers pronounce words such as violet as “biolet,” think as “tink” and swallow the ending sounds of words, as they sometimes do in Spanish.

My linguistness does enable me to 1) authoritatively coin words such as “linguistness”, and 2) assure you that this purported hearing of “biolet” is just as much an artefact of the hearer’s phonological biases as the speaker’s. The speaker is pronouncing the nearest sound in Spanish to English [v], namely the voiced bilabial fricative/approximant, and the hearer, expecting [v] at the beginning of this word, does not hear it and interprets it as the nearest non-[v] English sound to the actual one pronounced, namely [b ]. The [l]-[r] thing with some accents, stereotypically with Asian accents, works like this too.

Also, no English speaker in history has ever “swallowed the ending sounds” of a word such as “sixths”, I’m sure. Non-sarcasmically, this complaint is presumably about word-final consonant cluster reduction, which is done by everyone who speaks a language that allows such things in the first place.

Comment #29: fluxisrad  on  04/30  at  09:42 PM

So can we use this law to deport all the teabaggers with ungrammitical signs?

Also, American accents have always been influenced by immigrant populations. The accent that I have and where I am from is heavily influenced by all the scandinavians in the area, including my ancestors. Yet somehow I doubt my pasty, scandinavian ass would be banned from teaching in Arizona. Oofta!

Comment #30: alysia  on  04/30  at  09:43 PM

Also, fwiw, bilingual education is better for students in the long-term and lowers drop out rates. http://maillists.uci.edu/mailman/public/papyrus-news/2003-April/000130.html

Comment #31: alysia  on  04/30  at  09:50 PM

@2, DANG, tannenberg, I knew I’d screw it up if I tried to look all cosmopolitan and crap.  >;^)

Comment #32: Eric_RoM  on  04/30  at  10:10 PM

Gracchus @ #4:  When I taking German in college, my teacher was from Denmark… she was teaching her second language (German) in her third (English).  I had a pen pal from Norway who was quite fluent in English; he had several pen pals during his last year in the Army because he wanted to practice his English before he began college.  Many of his college courses would be conducted in English, not Norwegian.  Americans are very xenophobic when it comes to languages.

Comment #33: PurpleGirl  on  04/30  at  10:11 PM

“*Spanglish.  (Personally, I love Spanglish. I get a kick out of all the various ways that people build a slang that borrows from both languages, and often makes up entirely new words.) “

—-

My favorite bit of Spanglish, overheard in El Paso:  “Oye, fírmalo so I can llevarlo al boss.”

I lived in Mexico several years and while I was merely (reasonably) bilingual I was surrounded by people who could construct puns and other wordplay using 3 or 4 languages in a single sentence.  Strangely enough, this was not regarded as a handicap.

Comment #34: MS  on  04/30  at  10:19 PM

English-only is classic wingnuttery, right down to the bad faith.

It’s also historically ignorant. Many public schools only taught in Italian or German in the 1800s. Somehow the world survived. Then, just like now, the children of immigrants typically speak English as a native tongue, and barely speak their parents’ language.

Of course they were also people back then who claimed the world was ending because of the furriners .

Comment #35: bay of arizona  on  04/30  at  10:22 PM

DTG in STL:

Looking at the AZ Diamondbacks roster, I see Juan Gutierrez, Rodrigo Lopez, Esmerling Vasquez, Augie Ojeda, Tony Abreu, and Gerardo Parra.

The laws in AZ are an outrage, but come on. No Hispanics on the roster?

Comment #36: sophronia  on  04/30  at  10:28 PM

How are these things getting passed? Who’s writing them? Who’s sponsoring them? Does anyone have a link to a good blow-by-blow of exactly how Arizona has suddenly broken out in such a rash of stupid? I’ve been following the situation in Maricopa County - with rising horror - for a while now, but this all is new.

Two factors: The biggest one is that Janet Napolitano used to be the governor. They would pass all this same type of shit, and she would veto it. Everyone knew she would veto it, so all the more moderate Republicans could safely vote for it, play up their anti-immigrant cred and know that it would never become law. Now, Napolitano is gone, and a lot of the moderate Republicans lost to more right-wing politicians in the primaries in safe Republican districts (also - thank public financing of elections - it allows loonies who could never get enough support from the party establishment to break through). The moderates who remain are running scared and can’t afford to not vote for this stuff anymore. And the governor signs it.

The second one is that the economy there is in the fucking toilet. Maybe not as bad as Nevada, but it’s up there. So add economic resentment and fear to an already strong anti-immigrant climate (we already had some very harsh laws, many of them passed through the initiative process) and you get this.

Regarding the targeting of Mexican-American studies, they’ve had it in for Raza Studies for years. There is no time in my memory that they haven’t had it in for Raza Studies. But now they can act.

Comment #37: chingona  on  04/30  at  10:33 PM

One of the reasons AZ has exploded in stupid legislating is that the last election was a really big win for the right wingers. They won even bigger than would have been expected from the McCain coattails effect. It was hugely depressing. Then, of course, Janet Napolitano left to work for DHS, and we got as a new governor a hack who’s desperate to prove herself to the wingnuttiest out there. Napolitano had been able to keep the wingnuts from proposing truly crazy legislation, but now there’s nobody in control and they’re indulging their worst impulses.

Also, I suspect that the Republican brain trust has figured out that these anti-immigrant bills are just popular enough to get them back in office. There are plenty of people who are happy to take a dump on the poorest and most powerless whenever the economy goes south. And the AZ economy is about $10 away from a California-style meltdown.

Comment #38: sophronia  on  04/30  at  10:39 PM

I’m glad Knute Rockhead put in his 2 cents. 

Now we have a much clearer understanding of the wingnut problem with languages other than English:  It’s based on the simple and understandable fear that they would be exposed as ignorant, inbred, fuckwits in more than one language…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  04/30  at  10:42 PM

This law if enforced to the letter means that no one except those with PhDs/MFAs in English linguistics/writing/lit would be allowed to teach in their public school system.  LOL

Two of my lit profs did indeed speak beautiful, grammatically perfect English, the “Queen’s English” to be precise.  But their English was certainly not what I would call unaccented.  So uhm… Good luck with that, Arizona. Double LOL

Comment #40: phylosopher  on  04/30  at  11:06 PM

Oh, and since that Queen’s English was London via Mumbai - they were also both POC.

Comment #41: phylosopher  on  04/30  at  11:16 PM

Looking at the AZ Diamondbacks roster, I see Juan Gutierrez, Rodrigo Lopez, Esmerling Vasquez, Augie Ojeda, Tony Abreu, and Gerardo Parra.

The laws in AZ are an outrage, but come on. No Hispanics on the roster?

My mistake, I misinterpreted something said by Keith Olbermann last night on Countdown.

OLBERMANN:  The cry in Chicago—the symbols, the Arizona Diamondbacks, ironically is the only team in baseball without a prominent Hispanic player.

I believe the key word in his statement was “prominent”, meaning a widely recognized all-star caliber player, someone on par with the likes of Alex Rodriguez, Albert Pujols, Johan Santana, or Miguel Cabrera.

Given KO’s background as an ESPN analyst and his extensive baseball knowledge (he’s a paid consultant for Topps baseball cards), I took his statement at face value without investigating on my own.  To the extent that he included the word “prominent” as a caveat, he was correct in his statement, though it really depends on how one would define a “prominent” player.

In any case, I still think that baseball of all things could actually play a big part in getting this idiotic law thrown out.  Wingnuts don’t usually bend in the face of being socially ostracized, but they do bend when their bottom line is being threatened.  The ASG is expected to bring $150 Million in revenue to the Phoenix metro area next year, and Cactus League baseball also brings in tens of millions of dollars every spring to Maricopa County.  Should the baseball players union decide to use their clout to get the game yanked out of Arizona, it’s gonna be a huge PR nightmare for the state, not to mention the loss of a shitload of money.  San Francisco city officials have formally written to MLB Commissioner Bud Selig urging him to move the 2011 ASG if the law isn’t repealed.

Comment #42: DTG in STL  on  04/30  at  11:36 PM

DTG @ 9:  I’m sure you’re right the Mandarin is the world’s most commonly spoken language, but the figure of 480 million English speakers has to be way low.  The current population of the US + UK + Canada + Ireland + AU + NZ = 430M, and India alone has to have several hundred million English speakers (I found estimates of between 200M and 400M) and there has to be another 50-100M in the rest of Europe, not to mention places like Kenya, etc.

Comment #43: topometropolis  on  04/30  at  11:48 PM

PS, while you might say China has a billion people who speak Mandarin, I’d doubt it’s seriously less than that, as the cantons speak mutually intelligible languages, of which Mandarin is the official one.  If you watch tv in those places, you’ll find options between chinese 1, 2, and sometimes 3 and 4.  It’s crazy, and I seriously don’t want to put myself through the wringer it is to learn all the local dialects, because it seems like there is a big incentive to overestimate one or another.

Comment #44: Crissa  on  04/30  at  11:58 PM

I wonder if none of the Diamondbacks claim to be latino intentionally.

Comment #45: Crissa  on  04/30  at  11:59 PM

Yeah… my wife is studying at a university here in Japan, working on her Master’s. The classes are conducted in English and Japanese (as are my D&D;games). Nobody thinks twice about it. Well, some people are surprised that they teach classes in English at the university, but nobody’s upset by it.

Back in Canada, I loved being in a supermarket with loads of Korean and Japanese and Chinese foods, along with people speaking the associated languages. It doesn’t generally enter my mind to be upset about the influx of Asian immigrants, unless I start to think about how it sure seems to upset other people. It confuses me.

Comment #46: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  05/01  at  12:09 AM

I am so confused by Markuze lately.

Comment #47: Rebecca  on  05/01  at  12:32 AM

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

Well, that screws up the Aussies and Kiwis then.

Comment #48: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/01  at  01:03 AM

Comment #31: fluxisrad on 04/30 at 07:42 PM

My linguistness does enable me to 1) authoritatively coin words such as “linguistness”, and 2) assure you that this purported hearing of “biolet” is just as much an artefact of the hearer’s phonological biases as the speaker’s. The speaker is pronouncing the nearest sound in Spanish to English [v], namely the voiced bilabial fricative/approximant, and the hearer, expecting [v] at the beginning of this word, does not hear it and interprets it as the nearest non-[v] English sound to the actual one pronounced, namely [b ].

I don’t think this bilateral way of looking at it fits the sociolinguistic reality of the situation.  That sort of reasoning might be a good way of thinking about early pidgin states, where the conversation participants don’t really have an agreed linguistic norm; but the [v] case is simply and satisfactorily seen as a native Spanish speaker trying to speak English in a setting where English language norms impose themselves.  So to put it in cigar-as-cigar terms, both parties understand that the Spanish speaker doesn’t speak English quite right.

Also, no English speaker in history has ever “swallowed the ending sounds” of a word such as “sixths”, I’m sure. Non-sarcasmically, this complaint is presumably about word-final consonant cluster reduction, which is done by everyone who speaks a language that allows such things in the first place.

It could possibly be about consonant cluster reduction, but the from the WSJ quote I thought that perhaps some speakers may transfer final /-s/ aspiration or deletion (“comerse las eses” in Spanish) native dialects into English.  That would be extremely heavily accented English…

Comment #49: sacundim  on  05/01  at  01:07 AM

The 2 most widely used 2nd languages, however, are probably French, English, Spanish and German as they are the typical languages of world wide commerce, science/technology, etc.

I would hazard a guess that the most widely spoken second language is “Chinglish”, a dialect which native English speakers cannot follow at all.  Personally, I think it’s the Middle Kingdom’s revenge for the Opium Wars.

Comment #50: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/01  at  01:09 AM

The 2 most widely used 2nd languages, however, are probably French, English, Spanish and German as they are the typical languages of world wide commerce, science/technology, etc.

Back in the 1990s, George Weber attempted to calculate the 10 most important languages on the planet.  He used 6 criteria: the obvious number of primary speakers and secondary speakers, but also number and population of countries using the language, the number of major professional fields where the language is commonly used or is the de facto standard, economic power of the countries using the language, and socio-literary prestige of the language.

On a scale of 1 to 40, English scores a 37, French 23, Spanish 20, Russian 16, Arabic 14, Chinese 13, German 12, Japanese and Portugese tying at 10, and Hindi/Urdu at 9.

The most important stat he dug up is comparing how widespread a language is, broken down into core countries (where the language is the official/main method of communication),  outer core countries (where the language has a sizeable minority population speaking it and some kind of recognized status, say like English in India), and fringe countries where the language isn’t normally used in most of it, but it’s a fairly common choice as a second language that people might hear or speak (Spanish in the US).

English was (counting the countries that were around in the early 1990s) present in 115 countries, French next in 35, then Arabic at 24.  Chinese was down at 5.

Basically, you know English and there are good odds you can travel the world and having a good chance of finding someone who speaks it 9if it isn’t already an recognized official language).  Outside China and few other countries, knowing Chinese doesn’t give you squat.  Oh, in those countries you’ll be able to chat with a lot of people, but that’s about it.

Comment #51: KeithM  on  05/01  at  04:17 AM

Amanda, what is the substantiation for the claim that the purpose of English only is to defeat middle-class aspirations among Spanish-speakers?  I figured it was simply a sop to insecure Anglos’ sensitivities, not explicit class warfare.

Comment #52: Bruce Godfrey  on  05/01  at  05:03 AM

Amanda, what is the substantiation for the claim that the purpose of English only is to defeat middle-class aspirations among Spanish-speakers?  I figured it was simply a sop to insecure Anglos’ sensitivities, not explicit class warfare.

it’s not the English-only itself, but who it’s targeted towards: as Amanda explains, a lot of teacherw are native Spanish speakers originally brought in for bilingual education, who wouldn’t pass the “accent-free” test.

And when you don’t have teachers teaching you English while teaching you something else, you’re either learning English and missing out on other lessons; or you’re sitting in an English-only classroom with no flaming clue what’s going on. Either way, you’re falling behind the kids who don’t have to learn the language.

Comment #53: jadehawk  on  05/01  at  05:17 AM

teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented

Someone needs to tell these arseholes that there’s no such thing as unaccented speech, no such thing as “neutral” when it comes to accents, and that if they want to think that their accent and dialect is “neutral” then they need to come to England and hear all the stupid jokes about American accents and Americanisms “ruining” English.

English is about as mongrel a language as has ever existed, which is one of the sources of its constant evolution and thus success.  Long live Spanglish, Hinglish, and Chinglish, I say.

Comment #54: Katherine  on  05/01  at  06:44 AM

Here’s another one that drives racists crazy: having to wait three seconds longer to listen to “press one for English, two for Spanish.”  That one drives them the most crazy IMHO.

Comment #55: Albert Cirrus  on  05/01  at  08:35 AM

Living where I do, I also love hearing the cross-pollination of languages. There are many English loan-words into Japanese, to the point where if you’re stuck for the proper Japanese vocab, transliterating the English word into the Japanese phonetic alphabet will often work just fine. That is, just say whatever it is with a bad Japanese accent, and often enough it will work. Obviously not all the time, but a surprising number of times (best illustration was my wife looking for closet supports, and asking for ‘kurozzetto sapoutto.’ Sales clerk immediately showed her the closet supports).

Amongst the English-speaking community here, a lot of Japanese words creep in. I often find it easier to discus prices in Japanese with English speakers, because I know my car cost me juu nana man en, which is what it said on the price tag. To translated it I have to move the decimal place, and I can’t be bothered to say ‘a hundred and seventy thousand yen.’ I also routinely call my mobile phone a keitai, and when talking about whether or not to get a GPS in my car I called it a nabi, which is a fun back-and-forth borrowing, as it’s short for “navigation system.”

I’d love to be able to pun in multiple languages at once, but my Japanese isn’t really good enough yet, and it’s been years since I studied French or Mandarin.

Though I love living in Asia and studying Japanese, I have to agree that it’s not that useful outside of Japan/Asia. Vancouver there’s lots of opportunity I guess, but really on a global scale French is a more useful second language, or Spanish. Which is why Arizona is being stupid about this whole thing. English as a first language and Spanish as a second (or visa versa) is an amazingly good global combination. If your Spanish is good enough, I’ve been told that Italian is mutually intelligible, and French is a snap to learn from a base of Spanish and English. Cutting off the support for Spanish is just silly. The phrase “cutting off your nose to spite your face” comes to mind.

Comment #56: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  05/01  at  09:37 AM

Yeah, forgot to say that Arizona is being stupid about this because of the global element in addition to the whole racism thing. It’s to their advantage to have a strong Spanish language ability common in the population, and so being racist pricks is to their disadvantage in more than just the usual ways.

Comment #57: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  05/01  at  09:39 AM

you all have heard the joke: What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages? Trilingual. What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual.  What do you call someone who speaks one language? American.  Sad but true.

One of my biggest regrets is that I never learned a second language.  I wish I knew several.  And yes, I know I still can.  I struggled for years in school to learn German. 4 years in High School, one in college, another in grad school.  I barely passed my German language exam for my degree in the early 80s, on my second attempt, and then dropped it.  the experience has convinced me that I can’t learn a new language.  (I also took several course in ASL and never got very far)

Anybody try those Rosetta Stone programs?  Do they work?

Comment #58: Woodrowfan  on  05/01  at  10:59 AM

I’ve banned Knuterockne again, but who wants to bet that his ancestors are Irish-Americans, who were in the past in pretty much the exact same place as Mexican-Americans are now, facing the exact same forms of discrimination?

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/01  at  11:37 AM

Bruce, my substantiation is having grown up in the area, and having witnessed wingnuts not flinch when it’s pointed out that English-only means falling behind in other classes.  They seem skeptical/hostile of the idea that children of immigrants can or should go to college.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/01  at  12:15 PM

Though I love living in Asia and studying Japanese, I have to agree that it’s not that useful outside of Japan/Asia.

Judging from the time I did telemarketing for a client in Hawaii, there are a lot of Japanese speakers living there, many of them either monolingual or at least non-English speakers. grin

As for accents, my mother came to this country at the age of 10 speaking the Kings’ English as she had in Shanghai, China.

After she failed a spelling bee she decided on her own to ‘have’ an American accent.

I once asked her why she pronounced the word coffee like she grew up on Long Island, NY, and she explained it was so nobody would guess where she really came from because of course in those days anyone from abroad wasn’t a “real” American, at least among her classmates…....

Anybody try those Rosetta Stone programs?  Do they work?

One of my relatives studied at the Defense Language Institute here on the Best Coast and learned Japanese there,  he said the best way to learn a language is to watch movies like “Das Boot” or other German language movies with subtitles in English, or vice versa.

I tend to favor the listen and repeat method, German is actually easy in terms of phonetics, it’s the grammar that is the pits.  It also helps to have a native speaker to practice with as well.


Mark Twain on The Awful German Language:

If he had known what it had cost me to acquire my art, he would also have known that it would break any collector to buy it. Harris and I had been hard at work on our German during several weeks at that time, and although we had made good progress, it had been accomplished under great difficulty and annoyance, for three of our teachers had died in the mean time. A person who has not studied German can form no idea of what a perplexing language it is.

Surely there is not another language that is so slipshod and systemless, and so slippery and elusive to the grasp. One is washed about in it, hither and thither, in the most helpless way; and when at last he thinks he has captured a rule which offers firm ground to take a rest on amid the general rage and turmoil of the ten parts of speech, he turns over the page and reads, “Let the pupil make careful note of the following exceptions.” He runs his eye down and finds that there are more exceptions to the rule than instances of it. So overboard he goes again, to hunt for another Ararat and find another quicksand. Such has been, and continues to be, my experience. Every time I think I have got one of these four confusing “cases” where I am master of it, a seemingly insignificant preposition intrudes itself into my sentence, clothed with an awful and unsuspected power, and crumbles the ground from under me. For instance, my book inquires after a certain bird—(it is always inquiring after things which are of no sort of consequence to anybody): “Where is the bird?” Now the answer to this question—according to the book—is that the bird is waiting in the blacksmith shop on account of the rain. Of course no bird would do that, but then you must stick to the book. Very well, I begin to cipher out the German for that answer. I begin at the wrong end, necessarily, for that is the German idea. I say to myself, “Regen (rain) is masculine—or maybe it is feminine—or possibly neuter—it is too much trouble to look now. Therefore, it is either der (the) Regen, or die (the) Regen, or das (the) Regen, according to which gender it may turn out to be when I look. In the interest of science, I will cipher it out on the hypothesis that it is masculine. Very well—then the rain is der Regen, if it is simply in the quiescent state of being mentioned, without enlargement or discussion—Nominative case; but if this rain is lying around, in a kind of a general way on the ground, it is then definitely located, it is doing something—that is, resting (which is one of the German grammar’s ideas of doing something), and this throws the rain into the Dative case, and makes it dem Regen. However, this rain is not resting, but is doing something actively,—it is falling—to interfere with the bird, likely—and this indicates movement, which has the effect of sliding it into the Accusative case and changing dem Regen into den Regen.” Having completed the grammatical horoscope of this matter, I answer up confidently and state in German that the bird is staying in the blacksmith shop “wegen (on account of) den Regen.” Then the teacher lets me softly down with the remark that whenever the word “wegen” drops into a sentence, it always throws that subject into the Genitive case, regardless of consequences—and that therefore this bird stayed in the blacksmith shop “wegen des Regens.”

Comment #61: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/01  at  12:46 PM

(cont)

N. B.—I was informed, later, by a higher authority, that there was an “exception” which permits one to say “wegen den Regen” in certain peculiar and complex circumstances, but that this exception is not extended to anything but rain.

I had an aunt whose luggage got separated from her family while traveling in Switzerland early on after they’d moved there, and in her desperation the only thing she could think of to explain her predicament was “Die Kinder are mit out der klothing!”

Comment #62: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/01  at  12:47 PM

I hate these bigots. An *old family friend of ours immigrated from Mexico,  worked as an orange packer, raised her nephew after his mother abandoned him and saved $50,000. She worked hard, kept a spotless cheerful house even though it was run down, fed the neighborhood strays, and had a nice veggie garden. IOW: she embodied the American Dream, with the strong family values they keep bleating about. Can someone remind them that these states were once Mexican territory?
Not that it’d make a difference. They are able to justify any wrong doing as long as they are the ones doing it.

*She died of breast cancer. She was afraid of going to the doctor.(Because she feared it was cancer.  :/

Comment #63: pitbullgirl65  on  05/01  at  01:19 PM

What do you call someone who speaks one language? American.  Sad but true.

To be fair, they could also be British. To wit, Eddie Izzard:

“Two languages in ONE HEAD? No one can LIVE at that speed!”
“Well, the Dutch speak four languages and smoke marijuana…”
“Yes, but they’re cheating.”

Comment #64: Well, what?  on  05/01  at  01:28 PM

re #6: that really is too bad. Children can learn a dozen or more languages if exposed early enough (3-5 years seems about right). I was lucky to go to a French kindergarten, and later forgot most of what I learned. But I was exposed to the language early enough to wire it in. When I am in Paris, after listening for a day or two—and if I can recall the needed vocabulary—people think I am a native speaker.

I knew a co-worker some years ago that would would effortlessly switch to French or German, and one day I asked how she had learned. It turns out she was from an upper-class family in the UK, who had enough wealth to have household staff. The father was British, the mother from Sweden. They hired a cook from France, a German nanny, an Italian chauffeur, and a housemaid from Spain. The staff were instructed to only speak their own language to the children, and not hear anything the children said in another language. The parents did likewise.

So she grew up with perfect native speaker fluency in all 6 languages.

If no one else has pointed this out clearly: the claim that teachers who have an accent (everyone does, it is only a question of which wink or use non-standard grammar are a detriment is completely bogus. The children need exposure and use. They will see, hear and use plenty of standard grammar and common (say Midwest/GenAM, “broadcast”) accent as they grow up. Lots of well educated African Americans can speak “hood” (AAVE, in whichever variant), as well as perfect “standard” English.

Comment #65: Robert Ullmann  on  05/01  at  01:44 PM

Bruce, my substantiation is having grown up in the area, and having witnessed wingnuts not flinch when it’s pointed out that English-only means falling behind in other classes.  They seem skeptical/hostile of the idea that children of immigrants can or should go to college.

Of course they’re hostile to that idea? More immigrant children being able to go to college means the greater competition would make it harder for their own kids to get the college education they as Americans are “entitled to”. 

The logic is not too far removed from those of socio-economically privileged older White Ivy alums and students grousing about Affirmative Action, scholarship kids, TA/Profs with “foreign accents”, and the large international student population…especially at the grad level in STEM fields…..they hate the fact they now have to actually work to get in and stay in their Ivy colleges whereas just 40 odd years ago….most of them would have gotten in solely on their family connections, wealth, and name and treat their 4 years as an exclusive social gathering/party. 

This is one reason why I’ve always regarded native-born American undergrads’ complaints about foreign accented TAs/Profs as attempts to excuse their own academic failures/laziness…..especially when some were made solely because the TA/Prof in question “looked foreign” while actually being a native-born American him/herself.  Worst case was one idiot who did this to a Chinese history Prof who clearly has no “foreign accent” as a native-born American of Chinese ancestry….and whose command of American English is far better than most educated working professionals with graduate degrees.  rolleyes

As much as it pains me to say it, Professor Kara Miller is correct….many American college students are lazy and entitled and she confirms my own experiences as an undergrad and taking some post-undergrad courses at several mainstream campuses:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/12/21/my_lazy_american_students/

http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/wellesley/2009/12/lazy_american_students_after_t.html

Comment #66: exholt  on  05/01  at  02:03 PM

Well, I think the demands made and expectations made of college students when it comes to foreign teachers abd non-English-proficient high school students when it comes to teachers who aren’t fluent in English are going to be quite different. Immigrant parents are going to put a premium on having their children speak English as well and as quickly as possible, and bilingual immersion programs are expensive and the province of well-heeled school districts.

College aged adults can handle accented lectures with no problem—particularly since their teaching will likely be just as poor as the native born American professors and TAs.

Comment #67: Tyro  on  05/01  at  02:26 PM

Dora the Explorer probably frosts the racists to no end. Personally, I’m waiting for the teabaggers to picket Nick Studios over Dora and Diego. Either that or they picket Wal-Mart for selling Dora swag.


And New Mexico is probably sane because a) it’s a majority-minority state and 2) more than half of the state’s Hispanics had been there for 300 years before it became a state.

Comment #68: Dr. Squid  on  05/01  at  04:24 PM

One of my relatives studied at the Defense Language Institute here on the Best Coast and learned Japanese there, he said the best way to learn a language is to watch movies like “Das Boot” or other German language movies with subtitles in English, or vice versa.

Rammstein videos on YouTube work well, too. Just have to realize that German has strict pronunciation rules, and that if you can read it, you can say it if you know the rules.

English is actually frightfully complicated that way, as the letter “a” has about 6 different pronunciations while in pretty much any other language with a Roman alphabet, it has one.

Comment #69: Dr. Squid  on  05/01  at  04:31 PM

I lived in Texas in first and second grade, and somehow my family ended up in a town with a fantastic public school system.  One of the things the school had was Spanish-language education starting in elementary school.  We moved before I learned more than the basics, and since then I’ve never managed to become fluent in any language other than English (I’ve studied Spanish, Japanese and Irish Gaelic, and am equally incomprehensible in all of them).  I’ve always regretted that I didn’t get to stay in a school system that had early-childhood language education.  The idea that people are actively barring their kids from this opportunity blows my mind.

Comment #70: Shaenon  on  05/01  at  04:34 PM

Here’s another one that drives racists crazy: having to wait three seconds longer to listen to “press one for English, two for Spanish.” That one drives them the most crazy IMHO.

Pat Buchanan had an awesome commercial about this when he ran for President in 2000. Middle aged white guy eating dinner and watching tv, and the news announces English is not the national language anymore. This makes him choke on his food and he calls 911. They go “press 1 for Spanish, 2 for Tagalog..” and the guy keels over and dies.

Its complete BS, but still hilarious.

Comment #71: bay of arizona  on  05/01  at  08:12 PM

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.” - James D. Nicoll

Comment #72: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/02  at  12:25 AM

Re: Dora and Diego.  I remember being in a Blockbuster video renting a movie and there was this big blues clues thing going on there.  And this one woman held up a little green notebook and crayon to show her kids and said “Mira! Mira!  Handy Dandy Notebook!”—It made me smile.

Comment #73: Geeno  on  05/03  at  11:53 AM

They shrugged it off and went on to prosper.  Learning english and becoming citizens in the process.

As we can see, that achievement can’t be claimed by some of their descendants to this day.

Comment #74: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  10:10 AM
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