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Arty films that can suck it

Movies

Happy President’s Day/Susan B. Anthony Day!  In the spirit of holiday fun, I figured it was a good time to talk about movies. I’m inspired by this hilarious article at the Onion AV Club, where they surveyed their critics about what artistic work—-music, movie, whatever—-they used to love but have come to dislike or even hate.  The answers are varied and interesting, but there’s basically no way that the conversation wouldn’t be dominated by “American Beauty”, an intellectually bankrupt film that managed to hoodwink a nation for about two years with its floating bag and, according to the stalwart dudely fans in the comments at the AV Club, Thora Birch’s breasts.  “American Beauty” was a stupid movie, but it taught me a lot about myself, lessons I’ve tried to retain going forward. 

Basically, my experience with the movie was this: I enjoyed how it was beautifully shot and acted, but I had nagging doubts.  Unfortunately, due to audience reaction and critical acclaim, I squished down those nagging doubts in a bout of second guessing myself, no doubt a typical reaction in a young woman in her early 20s who hasn’t yet realized that just because some dude with an imperious air about his disagrees with you doesn’t mean you’re wrong.  At that age, you may not be great at much, but you are good at pre-emptively second-guessing yourself in order to avoid this humiliation.  So, these are the nagging doubts that I recall from the first time I watched the movie, reinforced subsequent times:

*The classical music at dinner was way anvilicious, and anyway, if they were that level of pretentious fuck yuppies, they’d listen to jazz at dinner.

*The murder at the end is meaningless and clearly tacked on to make the whole thing seem profound when it’s not.

*Anyone who thinks working at McDonald’s must be a laid-back, easy job because it doesn’t require any skills or education has never worked a service job and discovered what a pit of hell it really is.

*The nagging feeling we’re supposed to share the main character’s joy when he buys that stupid fucking car, even if we’re also laughing at him. 

*I fail to see why a man masturbating in the shower is supposed to be pathetic and heart-breaking.  From the get-go, one of the underlying themes of this movie was, “Poor guy has to touch his own cock.  The tragedy.”  I think a sexless marriage is a sad thing, sure, but I hate the use of a character masturbating to represent that, since it implies that sex with your spouse is basically just fancy masturbation, that masturbation is pathetic, and scenes like that are really just done for pointless shock value anyway.


But what really bothered me, and what I squelched initially but revisited later, was how the movie was basically the same misogynist whine that many corporations use to sell their products during sports events.  Thematically, it wasn’t much different than the now-notorious Dodge Charger ad.  Annette Bening’s character was a vicious stereotype, and the only reason it transcended that at all was that the actress was good enough to elevate this stereotype to humanity.  Then you have Mena Suvari’s character, who exists so that Spacey can come off as some gallant hero because he doesn’t fuck some virginal teenager.  In that interaction, we’re apparently meant to find her pathetic, because she gallivants around like she’s hot shit, but she’s still a virgin and a child.  A more interesting movie would have asked why our society makes girls feel like they have to act that way. 

But this was not what made the movie intellectually bankrupt.  What made it really stupid was that screenwriter Alan Ball apparently realized that his first draft was so overtly misogynist that he better try to complicate things a little bit if he wants to get that Oscar.  So he tries, weakly, to show that Bening’s character is feeling stifled and trapped, as well.  But his heart’s not in it—-he’s still a devotee of the idea that suburban malaise was invented by women to destroy men’s souls—-and so he makes the affair pointless, stupid, and fundamentally meaningless.  And with a man who is an even bigger douchebag than she is, so it ends up reinforcing the idea that women are basically creatures of conformity, and the main promoters of the worst values of American culture. And in case you don’t get that message, there’s the scene where Spacey, being a Bigger Man than you, sees the beauty in his wife that (let’s face it) isn’t actually there, and he comes on to her only to get rejected.  You know, in a symbolic rejection of the creative life force.

What about Thora Birch, you may ask?  Okay, well she’s shown being way more accepting of said creative life force.  But she can’t, being female, come up with it on her own.  She is the better person because she’s submissive to male guidance in a way her mother isn’t.  She is pointed at the floating bag and she sees (even though it’s stupid).  Apparently, the movie was telling young women like myself experiencing doubts that we really should squelch them, or we’ll be soulless monsters like Bening’s character.

After I quit squelching my doubts about “American Beauty” and saw it for the bankrupt film it is—-and was happy to see other critics and people I admire express those same doubts down the road (who doesn’t like validation?)—-I got a little firmer in my opinions, a little braver about my own tastes.  Which is why I humbly wish someone had reamed the crap out of “Y Tu Mama Tambien” on this list, since that’s the last movie I saw that I just absolutely hated and couldn’t believe that so many people were impressed by it.  It’s probably the same issue as “American Beauty”—-since it’s well shot and well acted and has all the markers of an arty film, it suckers people into ignoring that it has the same plot as “Love Story”.  Except worse, in a way, because the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is not only interested in teaching young men to live life so she can expire with her purpose in life being filled, but she’s there to teach us something about men’s relationships with each other.  In this case, the attempt to weasel out of a tedious, sexist cliche involves injecting some man-on-man action and having the men’s relationship with each other fall apart, but I was unimpressed, since the basic idea that cheeky women are there as muses and conduits for men, and that they have no reason to continue to exist having accomplished their assigned task, was central to the story. 

Thoughts?  What movie that got roundly applauded did you find tedious, cliched, or intellectually bankrupt?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:47 AM • (198) Comments

Actually, I recall that the original script had, as half the story, a trial in the murder case.  The murder wasn’t tacked on, but rather the film was truncated to end at the murder.

That’s not to say that makes the movie any better…

Comment #1: misplacedpatriot  on  02/15  at  11:59 AM

As Good As It Gets.

Comment #2: Naomi  on  02/15  at  12:00 PM

God, that sounds even worse, misplaced.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/15  at  12:04 PM

That floating bag was beautiful and a brief experience of cinema as art rather than product. The rest of the movie, however, was total crap: it wasn’t until about 3/4 of the way through that I suddenly realized I was supposed to sympathize with Kevin Spacey’s character instead of thinking he was the worst jackass in history.

Comment #4: felagund  on  02/15  at  12:09 PM

I’m happy to say that I hated American Beauty the very first time I saw it. For some reason, I missed it in the theaters, but rented it as soon as it came out on DVD thanks to all the buzz.  My reaction was very similar to yours, Amanda.

Another film I remember feeling this way about—everyone I knew loved it, but I couldn’t stand it—was Something Wild.  And come to think of it, that’s yet another Manic Pixie Dream Girl flick!

(In the Onion AV Club category of films that I loved the first time but now not so much, Mulholland Drive is the first thing that comes to mind.)

Comment #5: Ben Alpers  on  02/15  at  12:26 PM

In 2000, I was driving on a straight road on a clear day when wind from my window kicked up a plastic bag in my face.  Struggling with the bag and closing the window, I ended up driving off the road, totaling my car.  I always call this my “American Beauty” crash.

Comment #6: misplacedpatriot  on  02/15  at  12:30 PM

I never gave American Beauty much analysis, I just thought it was boring. Ditto Y Tu Mama Tambien. I never understood why so many people liked such boring movies and chalked it up to something I just didn’t get.

Comment #7: Olivia  on  02/15  at  12:31 PM

“Tedious, cliched, and intellectually bankrupt” should have been the subtitle for Forrest Gump.

Not only did those two hours seem more like four, all that “moral compass” praise almost drove me away from boxed chocolates.

Comment #8: cognitive dissident  on  02/15  at  12:32 PM

I’m going to have to watch Y Tu Mama Tambien again, I think. Because I know I walked away with a different impression, but it’s been so long that I can’t remember precisely why. But I hated American Beauty from the start. Just the opening narration with Spacey’s stupid voiceover From The Grave was like a road flare flashing ooooohhh this is gonna be crap.

Comment #9: Well, what?  on  02/15  at  12:44 PM

The book The Unbearable Lightness of Being. Oh wait, it caused me physical pain even as I read it.

Alien:Resurrection comes to mind. It becomes worse and worse every time I see it.

In the realm of anime, I actually, an I’m embarrassed to admit it, really loved Love Hina when I first saw it. Then I realised it was part of a genre, and it became complete dreck.

Comment #10: AndersH  on  02/15  at  12:46 PM

I’m generally ok with any movie that sparks discussion, and to that end American Beauty did in fact generate its fair share, but I don’t disagree with your analysis.

The movie that has given me fits and vomits for the last few years has been Sin City. It was a 2 hour long paternalistic rape fantasy that comic book fans rubbed themselves raw over because it used interesting cinematography and it made them feel smart. Oh yeah, and Elijah Wood wanted to shake off his image as Frodo Baggins. I literally had a fanboy shouting at me that I just didn’t get it because I saw scene after scene of helpless woman/women who were going to be raped and killed by bad men and only the manly-man male hero could save them problematic.

Comment #11: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/15  at  12:52 PM

American Beauty really was awful…and I would say the same of any subsequently-directed Sam Mendes film, up to and including “American Beauty in the 1950’s”, i.e. Revolutionary Road, another movie that encouraged viewers to scoff at and look down on pretty much everyone in the entire movie, except for the main characters who saw through the bullshit but were powerless to escape it.  Mendes is like a middle-aged, pretentious Holden Caulfield.

Also there’s the morally bankrupt The Reader, which thinks it’s being revolutionary to remind us that Nazis were people with feelings, too, and which even has a scene where a mean old judge at a war crimes trial is badgering Winslet’s character, who, during the war, had trapped a lot of Jews to be incinerated in a burning church (something we don’t actually see, so as not to skew the viewer’s delicate sensibilities against her), and we’re supposed to feel sorry for her.  When she asks the judge, “What would YOU have done?” the judge is rendered inexplicably speechless, in what is supposed to be a victory for Winslet.  And when she’s sentenced to jail for, um, murdering people, we’re supposed to feel sorry for her.

There’s Dancer in the Dark, which basically involves Bjork being tortured for an hour and a half for our viewing pleasure.

And A Beautiful Mind, written by Akiva Goldsman, possibly the worst screenwriter in Hollywood today (who counts Batman and Robin and Mr. and Mrs. Smith among his credits), in which Goldsman gives the main character an actual catchphrase, and a really stupid one at that: “Terrified.  Mortified.  Petrified.  Stupefied.  By you.”

I feel bad, because I really do like Kate Winslet as an actor, but speaking of Manic Pixie Dream Girls, a third Winslet movie I never liked that everyone else does is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.  And pretty much every other Charlie Kaufman movie besides Being John Malkovich.  The women in his movies (even, I would argue, Meryl Streep as Susan Orlean in Adaptation) are always secondary and the men are always the types of lovable loser white guys you see at the center of MPDG movies.  Just because you’re meta doesn’t mean you’re deep.

But of course the worst of the critically-acclaimed movies was Crash, wherein, through a series of coincidences and chance meetings, we found out that one-dimensional stereotypes straight out of conservatives’ darkest fever dreams, along with overt racists who would make George Wallace blush, can also have softer sides and family lives.  By treating blatant Jim Crow racism as the only kind that “counts”, the movie allowed white audiences to remain in denial about their own, more disguised racist impulses and at the same time feel content that some George Wallace sitting in the audience with them was being “challenged”.  David Denby of the New Yorker (who bashed Kill Bill as “trash” that same year) forever lost my readership when he said of Crash: “Hyper-articulate and often breathtakingly intelligent and always brazenly alive. I think it’s easily the strongest American film since Clint Eastwood’s ‘Mystic River,’ though it is not for the fainthearted.”

Comment #12: ryang  on  02/15  at  12:52 PM

I’m dating myself, but: The Graduate.

I loved </i>American Beauty</i> when it first came out, and would probably have written a passionate disagreement with you back then. But I saw a few minutes of it on cable not long ago, particularly Annette Bening’s scenery-chewing, and thought: WTF was I thinking?

Comment #13: Bitter Scribe  on  02/15  at  12:53 PM

And I just realised my consumption of “arty” works doesn’t seem to be enough, since I don’t seem to have enjoyed anything that I’ve later had a reversal on.

Comment #14: AndersH  on  02/15  at  12:53 PM

I initially liked “American Beauty” because I’m a big Kevin Spacey fan and I feel he’s the kind of actor that can make even the worst script into a watchable movie, just based on his skills and charm alone.

Also, at the risk of sounding sexist, I enjoyed watching the Thora Birch topless scene (hey - she’s a very attractive woman and in most of her films, she wears these gothy outfits that aggressively conceal that).

With that said, upon further reflection, and several viewings of the film on HBO/Cinemax/Showtime, I began to realize the weaknesses of it as a film

Others have already said this, so I’ll summarize - Spacey’s character is a whiny overentitled selfish jerk - and is also something of a perv (at one point, Thora Birch’s character makes a comment about her feeling uncomfortable bringing her friends home because she’s afraid he’s going to slobber all over them, and, upon reflection I can see her point!)

And the whole suburban-bashing thing is really tired and lame, no matter how well filmed it is.

Comment #15: GregoryAButler  on  02/15  at  12:54 PM

Okay, American Beauty was the first R-rated film that I was permitted, by my rather strict family, to watch, as it was “arty”. So I’ve always had a tiny soft spot for it filed under a high-schooler’s standard of “arty”. But. I remember people I knew being shocked when I said that I identified most with Annette Benning’s character - they expected me to care about Thora Birch’s discovery that having a boyfriend Makes You Whole and you should run after boys with no clear life plan, ffs, but even when I was fifteen or sixteen I was hotly aware of this character who was being run right over because all her attempts to succeed by her own terms made her insufficiently Sexyfun, which makes her try harder, which makes the people around her think she’s even more of an uppity bitch. As I’ve grown into my feminism, I’ve pretty much decided that she’s the true tragic heroine of the movie, and the fact that the movie thinks that all she needs is a deep-dicking by a man who can show her what’s up is so sickly funny that it makes me want to set things on fire. The end.

Comment #16: purpleshoes  on  02/15  at  12:55 PM

Too many to list; the vast majority of movies fall into this category, whatever their artistic pretensions or lack thereof. To the point that I simply don’t expect much of your average movie, and so don’t go to the movies that often.

As far as “critical darlings that I hate” I’ll go with the animation fave The Triplets of Belleville. It had nice bits, here and there, but the story was leaden, the characters unsympathetic except for the dog, and overall it left me flat. And I love animation, of all kinds.  But what I come up against constantly in animation (as in blockbusters like Avatar) is the assumption that technical brilliance overrules a dull story. It doesn’t. Technical brilliance becomes routine after a while, or gets superseded, and if your story and characters are not good, then your movie becomes a relic. Brilliance also did not rescue the Ratatouille, which was beautiful to look at but had an incoherent story.

Comment #17: emjaybee  on  02/15  at  01:00 PM

It’s not arthouse, but I have an undying hate for Jerry Maguire and will never in a million years understand why anyone thought it was good or romantic. Cruise is a douchey asshole at the beginning of the film and an assy douche at the end of the film. Couldn’t stand it at all.

Spacey’s other super-overrated film is one I still hear people rave about, even though if you thought about the plot for more than ten seconds you would realize how pointless it is: The Usual Suspects. On top of that it was dull, dull, dull, and it employed Christ-munch Baldwin.

Then there are some films I enjoyed so much the first time, I’m afraid to revisit them in fear that they won’t live up to my memories. I thought Mulholland Drive was a masterpiece. It’s where Lynch finally stopped trying to be quirky and abandoned all pretense of trying to make the symbolism mean something and just let it float by on pure dream logic. I also thought The Royal Tenenbaums was magnificent the first time around (despite the use of Ben Stiller), but I don’t know if it really was, or if it just deployed Nico and Between the Buttons Rolling Stones to absolutely perfect effect.

Comment #18: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:03 PM

Ryang, jesus on a pogo stick I hate Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. I watched it exactly once and it gives me the heebie-jeebies, not because the idea of memory erasure is creepy (meh, whatever) but because it sincerely acts like the version of Clementine that’s in Joel’s head is realer and more important than the actual existence of an actual woman who is actually alive who he didn’t invent and doesn’t control. Maybe that was supposed to be the point of the movie, I don’t know - maybe it was meant to criticize the version of romantic love where the idea of the person in your head is way more important to you than the actual other human being who really exists - but I felt like it was treating that kind of solipsism as romantic, and that kind of thing gives me brain-hives.

Comment #19: purpleshoes  on  02/15  at  01:03 PM

I liked American Beauty better when it was Sunset Blvd.. Both IMO have the same general plot trajectory of a protagonist who spends the entire film suffering from a moral and psychological malaise only to be murdered shortly after he engages in a petty act of responsibility. The difference is that Wilder handles Hollywood narcissism much better than Bell handles suburban narcissism.

Dancer in the Dark made us swear off watching Lars von Trier films, as they all seem to involve the long, slow, torture of a female protagonist.

Comment #20: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  01:07 PM

Gattaca. Oh my god, Gattaca. The movie that tries so hard to be clean that it pulls every single one of its punches. Oh, and the supporting woman isn’t allowed to show emotion, but she does have one devious scene (women are devious). And the moment she starts to show emotion, it leads to sex. Then she’s basically done for the rest of the movie. Bra-vo.

Comment #21: TheNewAnarchist  on  02/15  at  01:12 PM

I thought Clementine was supposed to be the anti-MPDG? (In fact, I think there was a thread on that here at some point). She has her own life and problems and no interest in existing to make Jim Carry’s life better or more fun.

Re:Crash....ugh…Jesus, there just aren’t words to describe how teeth-scrapingly awful that movie was. And the subsequent critical jack-off and Oscar win for it just compounded it’s sin’s against humanity.

Comment #22: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:12 PM

One thing I have learned about movies from watching American Beauty is that sometimes, it’s not that a movie has “multiple layers,” it’s that a movie is really incoherent. American Beauty tries to cover up for it’s big mess by claiming to be complex.

Comment #23: Tyro  on  02/15  at  01:12 PM

I was excited when I read about Miss Congeniality in the Art Forum letters section, months before it came out. The characters were all cartoons, and I don’t see where people even take the time to discuss the archetypes addressed, and the deconstruction of gender roles.

I can’t tell you how many openings I just left when people couldn’t stop yammering about the bold genius of this film.

Comment #24: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  01:16 PM

I’m dating myself, but: The Graduate.

That was on TV recently and I caught the opening scene for the first time in probably 20 years. It’s actually quite brilliant cinematography with Hoffman on the automated sidewalk as the credits roll… but then they start talking and I remembered why I find it so unwatchable.

A friend once recommended City of Angles to me. So I watched it, then I went and found my friend, sat her down and forced her to watch Wings of Desire. She still apologizes for that. Ye gods I can’t imagine how they came up with that; What, did some moron studio exec decide that the problem with Wim Wenders was that he just didn’t make films that were banal enough!?

Comment #25: Sarcastro  on  02/15  at  01:20 PM

Apocalypse Now is a terrible, terrible movie.

The Maltese Falcon, while not awful, is barely mediocre.

2001 is largely pretentious twaddle.

Unforgiven, despite claims to the contrary, was the same old lionizing of violence and macho mythos that Eastwood always makes.

Comment #26: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:20 PM

Wings of Desire: Sad Angels Stare Blankly in Well Photographed Settings

Comment #27: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:22 PM

Agree and Disagree. My general feeling is that it was a really smug and self satisfied film. At the same time I remember the masturbation thing as him having no intimacy in his life and it was at least partially his own fault. Emphasis on his own. The other stuff, I can’t believe they hoodwinked so many people.

Manic Pixie girl thing doesn’t bother me much either. They have 90 minutes give or take half an hour or so and scripts are written to show one character developing as a person. Everyone else exists as means of provoking action. Of course its another thing to have an male adult central character who has the emotional complexity of a 14 year old who requires Kirsten Dunst in a low cut top to provoke him into doing anything but that isn’t the pixie’s fault. 

I never got Nacho Libre. The people who liked it just wanted to be the kind of people who laugh ironically at a film like Nacho Libre. So when the lights came on I was sitting there with fists clenched thinking what a fucking heap of shit and everyone wanted to say how clever it was (the subtitle being look how clever I am). On tv Sons of Anarchy. I want everyone in the show to go to prison for a long time but any one who watches the show talks about how Shakespearian it is. 

Naomi, so with you As Good as it Gets. In a related vein Gran Torino which everyone enjoyed because its fun to watch angry Clint throw around racial epithets and threaten minorities with guns but awww he softens and learns to accept so its ok.

Comment #28: pharmakos  on  02/15  at  01:23 PM

Tyro, I felt the same way about Synechdoche.

I really liked Eternal Sunshine and I’ve been meaning to watch it again.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/15  at  01:23 PM

Mighty Ponygirl:

The movie that has given me fits and vomits for the last few years has been Sin City.

Sin City literally gave me a migraine when we watched it on video, so I know exactly what you mean.

Bitter Scribe:

I’m dating myself, but: The Graduate.

It’s interesting that you say that, because when I was younger, I hated that movie.  Then I watched it as an adult and realized that the film is much more sympathetic towards Mrs. Robinson than I ever gave it credit for, and you really are supposed to think that Benjamin is an enormous, self-absorbed asshole.

Mrs. Robinson is the tragic heroine of the movie who’s been damaged by life and can’t overcome it because, well, she’s human.  And the exact same thing that happened to her is going to happen to Elaine—getting married way too young to an immature idiot because she thinks that’s what she’s supposed to do.  Ben hasn’t rescued Elaine from a thing.  He’s just ensured that her unhappy future will be with him instead of the other guy.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  01:25 PM

I thought Mulholland Drive was a masterpiece. It’s where Lynch finally stopped trying to be quirky and abandoned all pretense of trying to make the symbolism mean something and just let it float by on pure dream logic.

That was my reaction to Mulholland Drive when I first saw it.  You might not want to revisit it.  My experience seeing it again after a few years was that it wasn’t nearly as good as I had thought it was.

Comment #31: Ben Alpers  on  02/15  at  01:27 PM

Alien:Resurrection comes to mind. It becomes worse and worse every time I see it.

The movies under discussion have to be ones that you thought would be good or have in some way received a lot of undeserved critical acclaim. Alien Resurrection has always been regarded as a bad movie.

The fact that “Apocalypse Now” has become regarded as the “definitive” Vietnam movie instead of “The Deer Hunter” has always befuddled me. But I think that Apocalypse Now appealed to a lot of college aged fratboys who reveled in how cool the Robert Duvall surfing scene was.

Comment #32: Tyro  on  02/15  at  01:31 PM

I liked Apocalypse Now because Marlon Brando creeped me out a lot. Especially with the story about the mass amputation thing. You didn’t see it but it was really one of those things were it changes from just a film to oh wow what is happening to my perspective.

Comment #33: pharmakos  on  02/15  at  01:35 PM

I have forgotten most of American Beauty.

Which is stunning, b/c I used to have a damn near photographic memory, and that movie came out Before Children when the memory was still good.


The movie I hate?  Blindness.  Hateful dreck.  Rape porn.  Tries to be “deep” b/c a man can’t care for his wife/partner anymore b/c she can still see, and therefore can’t really understand him anymore, even though she’s gone into quarantine/prison/hell to support him. 

It is the nadir of filmmaking.  I hate this movie.  There is no art about it.  It’s a pretentious mass of hate and violence.

Comment #34: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/15  at  01:37 PM

There’s a certain roster of stars who, after a promising first couple of films, spent the rest of their careers playing exactly the same character (namely, themselves). Marlon Brando’s one of those guys. As is DeNiro and Pacino. And all I’ve ever thought when I saw her in a movie was, “Hey, it’s Meryl Streep doing another studied-to-death accent”.

Brando, in Apocalypse Now especially, seemed to be playing an imitation of himself.

Comment #35: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:43 PM

The fact that “Apocalypse Now” has become regarded as the “definitive” Vietnam movie instead of “The Deer Hunter” has always befuddled me.

I’ve always thought The Boys In Company C should be considered the definitive film of that conflict.

Comment #36: Sarcastro  on  02/15  at  01:48 PM

Apocalypse Now is a terrible, terrible movie.

Noooooooo!
It’s my favorite film.

Comment #37: Rebecca  on  02/15  at  01:49 PM

The Shining is the most deeply boring movie I’ve ever seen.  Sure, the two little girls are creepy, but other than that it’s just sitting around waiting for Jack Nicholson to go insane.

But that’s the reaction that I have to most Kubrick movies—bo-ring.  The only one I like is Dr. Strangelove, and that’s because all of the actors put so much energy into it that they almost bring it to life.

And now if you’ll excuse me, I get to go to the dentist on my day off.  They screwed up the impression for my new crowns and have to do them again.  Fun fun.

Comment #38: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  01:49 PM

I am happy to say I havenever seen any of these movies, my favorite movie for many years was the Matrix, I thnk it might have been the first “R” rated movie I ever saw in a theatre, but even now when I see it on TV I still like the first seen when Trinity beats up all the cops, and the seen when they go into the lobby of the building to free Morpheus, is one of the best in all of moviedom. 
I guess the key to happy movie watching is to stay away from artsy stuff.

Comment #39: John Rove  on  02/15  at  01:52 PM

Oh, one more thing:  as much as I can’t stand Kubrick, it’s nothing compared to the white-hot hatred I have for Godard.  Breathless is sorta okay.  Band a Part has a good dance scene.  Other than that, his films make me want to punch him in the face for wasting my valuable time with his pretentious idiocy.  I actually walked out of Weekend when they showed it in a film class because I was about to throw my notebook through the screen.

Comment #40: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  01:53 PM

Eternal Sunshine struck me as a critique of romantic love. Depending on your interpretation, the protagonists are doomed to either repeat the cycle of infatuation-pain-forgetting or be forced to find ways of handling the inevitable conflict (including, quite possibly, choosing not to have a relationship.) This is supported by the secondary relationship in which the Doctor denies Mary closure and emotional growth by erasing her memories of their affair.

Comment #41: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  01:53 PM

The key is to stay away from Matrices 2 and 3. Unless you happen to be a fan of boring people in disheveled Banana Republic clothes dancing in slow motion to endless raves.

Comment #42: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  01:55 PM

Dark Knight.  I have no analysis here.  I fell asleep during the movie and was just generally bored out of my mind. 

When I don’t appreciate a movie that others appreciate, like Dark Knight, I’m too lazy to do much beyond accepting that, while the list of cool things and the list of things I like may overlap, they’re not identical.

American Beauty, the movie, left me cold, too.  Now, American Beauty, the album—that’s an entirely different story.  That’s a “3 CDs you get to take to a desert island” pick.

Comment #43: Raenelle  on  02/15  at  02:05 PM

@11

Oh Sin City I wanted to like you. But every story arc was tough, dark, edgy man saves beautiful, helpless sexworker from bad bad men. Yuck.

Comment #44: kiki  on  02/15  at  02:23 PM

A friend once recommended City of Angles to me.

Didn’t like it either; I thought it was obtuse.  (ducks)

Comment #45: Sour Kraut  on  02/15  at  02:23 PM

Brilliance also did not rescue the Ratatouille, which was beautiful to look at but had an incoherent story

As a big fan of animation, myself, I expected to love Ratatouille, and instead all I could muster at the end of the film, what a big, “Meh.”

Artsy films are definitely not my genre, though I did see American Beauty, out of curiosity.  Don’t remember any of it.

Years ago, a coworker dragged my to Adaptation.  I knew it was arty-fartsy, but I went because we were playing hooky from work.  I figured work sucks more than any movie.

I was wrong.  So wrong.  There isn’t enough booze or pot to make a movie like that interesting.

Comment #46: adobedragon  on  02/15  at  02:23 PM

Mnem: Re: The Graduate, you may be surprised to know that Roger Ebert shares your opinion. (Or maybe you already knew.)

Hope all went well at the dentist.

Comment #47: Bitter Scribe  on  02/15  at  02:25 PM

Wings of Desire (terrible, terrible terrible, yet has 100% ratings on rotten tomatoes)
Breaking the Waves (rape and degradation of woman as some kind of transcendent thing)
Cache (supposed to be a thriller/mystery, yet there’s no conclusion to the story that makes logical sense)
And the winner of the suck Olympics:
Sideways

Comment #48: t-ster  on  02/15  at  02:31 PM

Egnue:
The Matrix may be the best movie with the worst sequeals ever.  Although the motorcycle chase in the second on almost made it worth watching. But the closeups of all the actors pock marks especially if you saw it in Imax made it hard to deal with.

Comment #49: John Rove  on  02/15  at  02:38 PM

I loved “Revolutionary Road”, which made the exact opposite point of “American Beauty”.  It sent up the man-boy who fancied himself better than the suburban hell that he created for himself, and showed how destructive the woman-blaming in those situations really is.

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/15  at  02:41 PM

I don’t watch very many movies, but I’m gonna go with TheNewAnarchist and second Gattaca.  It’s an utterly culture wars dominated flick with plenty of right wing tropes floating around.  It’s an American Carol that was better and more slickly done than anything Zucker can do.  But all of that stuff goes straight over the heads of most of the watchers…it’s one of the most misunderstood movie I know of.

Oh, yes, and I’ll defend Matrix Reloaded with my last breath.  It’s better than the first movie, but it gets trashed unfairly because it dumps much of the superhero genial bullshit (of course leaving in the fights) that the first one had.  The last movie was really the pits.

Comment #51: shah8  on  02/15  at  02:45 PM

Matrix Reloaded was a passable sequel until Neo started blowing things up in the Real World.  Then it turned into a foetid pile of soul-crushing horrible crap.

You know, it’s fashionable to discuss now how the suburbs are this horrible place that crushes souls.  The thing is, though, the suburbs are this horrible place that crushes souls.  Speaking as someone who was crushed thereby, even badly flawed movies which allow me to process all of that have a place in my heart.  Even American Beauty.  I’m told the original script had the teenage guy taking the fall for the murder.  Just knowing that that level of acceptance of the horror which is American suburban life exists improves the movie dramatically for me.  Because of course that’s exactly what would have happened.

Comment #52: Punditus Maximus  on  02/15  at  03:00 PM

Annette Bening’s character was a vicious stereotype, and the only reason it transcended that at all was that the actress was good enough to elevate this stereotype to humanity.

Is it just me, or does every perfomance she’s given since (and including) Bugsy shrill and annoying?  There’s also a quality to everything she does that screams, “I am an important actress.  Give me my Oscar, already!’

Comment #53: Kristen from MA  on  02/15  at  03:07 PM

Amen on Forrest Gump.  In retrospect it’s a Tom Hanks Oscar vehicle married to 3 hours of hippie-punching.

I’d forgotten about American Beauty, it left so little an impression on me.  I’m not sold on Annette Benning as the hero—I agree with Roger Ebert that she ‘confused success with happiness,’ and trapped herself in her own little cage.  Of course Ebert also thought AB was brilliant, so take what you will.  Both Benning and Spacey have bought into a phony ideal for living, but what makes Spacey even more pathetic is he doesn’t realize is that he’s simply bought into another myth by chasing after the trappings of teenage masculinity.  The closet-case marine is telegraphed from a light year away.  His son is pretentious & unlikeable.  And—it needs to be said—the whole film has the stench of rich, white privileged Hollywood gay men sneering at uptight suburbanites they know jack shit about.

Comment #54: Sour Kraut  on  02/15  at  03:13 PM

I always thought you were supposed to find Spacey’s character pathetic and contemptible and you were supposed to sympathize with Thora Birch’s and Tobey Maguire’s characters. (it was Tobey Maguire?)

At any rate, like others, I liked it the first time I saw it, but hated it the second time. It did seem very superficial, and the blowing bag a bit ridiculous on a repeat viewing.

An “arty” movie I was totally underwhelmed by from the first was Lost in Translation. Sorry, the escapades of two self-pitying, self-absorbed people in a foreign country was just too boring to bear.

Comment #55: louC  on  02/15  at  03:36 PM

PS Another one is Talk to Her. Sorry, a guy raping a girl in a coma is just not something I find sympathetic.

Comment #56: louC  on  02/15  at  03:39 PM

t-ster @ #48

and the winner of the suck Olympics:

Sideways

Dude, you need to get your crank worked on!

Comment #57: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  03:43 PM

Awww, yeah, for Jerry Maguire (evil bitches ruin men AND Magical Negro helps White People understand Life Better), and for Forrest Gump.  And I hate to say it, but almost all of Monty Python doesn’t work for me anymore, either.  It’s like the chicks are props, or they are Terry Jones hating on his mother.

Comment #58: jfwlucy  on  02/15  at  03:44 PM

Count me as another vote for Forrest Gump.  Having read the book, I found the movie even more disappointing; the book was a midly abrasive satire of Americana.  The movie took the philosophy of the book and embraced its polar opposite; demonstrated best by the the movie’s most famous line: “Life is like a box of chocolates” is a twist of the novel’s “Bein a idiot is no box o’ chocolates.”  Also, the CG was always firmly entrenched in the uncanny valley.

I’m also another vote for The Royal Tenenbaums; that one wore off quickly, though.  As much as I enjoyed it in the theatre, my distaste for it was palpable before I even reached my car.  The slightest bit of analysis makes the entire movie fall apart, so much so that I was pleasantly relieved that Wes Anderson dialed back the self-indulgence for The Fantastic Mr. Fox (in fact, I’d say it was even less so than the original book, since Mr. Fox’s fantasticness is deconstructed and acknowledged as little more than a defense mechanism).

I did, however, like Eternal Sunshine, but I interpreted it as a deconstruction/subversion of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl archetype; she is one when they meet, but then they have a relationship and it turns out that she’s not a collection of eccentricities but someone with an actual personality and moments where she’s not only not exuberantly charming but human and occasionally gross, and after moving the schlub to do something with his life, she gets tired of him.  I can see why someone might not read it that way, though.

Comment #59: nekouken  on  02/15  at  03:49 PM

I always hated American Beauty, which clearly means I’m a genius!  :D not really, but I did always find the entire theme of the movie repellent and, at best, pity-inspiring (and not the useful kind of pity, known more as “compassion,” either.  The squicked-out kind).

Comment #60: Lisa KS  on  02/15  at  03:56 PM

As far as Forest Gump, I never thought that was supposed to be anything other than a taking back America from the fucking hippies movie. It’s a collection of conservative platitudes, something that might, in another life, get emailed around as spam, but because it’s all advice his dear mother gave him, it somehow remains sacrosanct.

Oh, and Woody Allen did everything they tried a few years before in Zelig, and it was a much better movie.

The Tom Hanks movie that truly disappoints me is Philadelphia. The bigotry acted out in the movie is so very comic book and uninspired, where a couple of creative shots are supposed to flesh out the ignorant fear of touching the same pen an AIDS victim did - that was prevalent at the time.

I get the same feeling when watching the Sarah Silverman show. She plays a dumb, bigotted character, one I get the feeling she doesn’t like, therefore doesn’t play it as more as mockery of hatred. I think a show like All in the Family was so successful because the show really explored their bigotry, not as stereotypes of hatred, but as actual unfounded fears that actual people actually had(have).

I just didn’t find Denzel Washington believable as a queer-hating person. It seemed very on-the-surface, and not developed.

Comment #61: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  03:59 PM

nekouken @ #59 -

I feel that some directors hit a rut and become hyper aware of themselves at a point in their careers, and for Wes Anderson, decided, “I have to make a Wes Anderson movie!” He then proceeds to turn the quirkiness up to 11 and everything’s a recreation of the magic of Bottle Rocket or Rushmore.

In my opinion, David Lynch got so bogged down during Twin Peaks that Wild at Heart became his “David Lynch” movie. The movie was a characture of itself, and it was all I could do to not walk out of the theater.

Comment #62: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  04:07 PM

I seem to have an aversion to the plague of films in which kooky and underachieving characters repeatedly whine about their life. I was underwhelmed by High Fidelity, and when I saw trailers for Greenberg I rolled my eyes.

Comment #63: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  04:22 PM

I hated Iron Man.  Turned it off.  Can’t understand why so many people thought it was so amazing.

Agreed on Sin City.  God, I hated that movie.

Comment #64: Rumblelizard  on  02/15  at  04:36 PM

It’s so great to see Forrest Gump get the beating it deserves.  I was the only person I know to shut it off halfway because it was so utterly horrible. 

But for recent movies that got a lot of praise from critics and a big wtf from me, nothing beats Gran Torino.  I really liked Million Dollar Baby so got convinced to see GT when it was in the theatre and I almost threw up.  Every hateful, despicable, moronic stereotype played to the hilt, horrorshow violence (like in Unforgiven, which I also couldn’t sit through) and good ol’ American exceptionalism crammed down our throats until our butt hurt.  I will never understand how that movie got the plaudits it did.

Oh, and I’ve watched Mullholland Drive about thirty times and it gets better every single time.

Comment #65: entrails  on  02/15  at  04:38 PM

Oh man, I looove the Graduate, love Anne Bancroft and Dustin Hoffman, love the Simon & Garfunkel soundtrack, and love its elevation of boredom and listlessness into heroic qualities, as wrong as that may be.  This in spite of what in retrospect is my hypocritical bashing earlier of movies that look down on every one of their characters except the main ones.  But so many people whose opinions I usually share hate the movie that they’ve got me second-guessing it.

Raenelle @#43: The Dark Knight definitely goes on my list, too…it was like they took America’s hypermasculine, human rights-stomping, treaty-violating, overreaction to 9/11 and condensed it into movie form.  The last lines by Commissioner Gordon about how Batman has to run because we have to chase him are among the corniest I’ve seen committed to screen, as well as the best expression of conservative self-pity and threatened masculinity.  I wouldn’t have been surprised if, when Batman removed his mask, it was Cheney under there instead of Christian Bale.

Comment #66: ryang  on  02/15  at  04:51 PM

Hmm, I think I should probably not see American Beauty again because, yes, I fell for it. 

Although I was always bothered by the scene where the Annette Benning character doesn’t want the Kevin Spacey character to spill wine on the sofa in the midst of them snogging on it. She gets berated by him for caring about unimportant things, but I was sympathising with her.  She’s probably gonna be the one cleaning the damn thing afterwards, and how difficult would it be for him to put the bloody glass down, afterall.

Never like Forrest Gump.  I think that one didn’t translate to Britain terribly well generally, since it was an exercise mostly in American nostalgia.  Also, there’s less of a hate-for-the-intellectuals streak over here, so the unintelligent-but-and-probably-because-of-that-good character didn’t appeal.  I also hated what they did to Robyn Wright Penn’s character - basically punishing her for being a bit of a free spirit rather than an orders-following good-ol’ country bot.  Yuck.

Sin City was just sickening from beginning to end.  No analysis required.  I’ve been afraid to watch Watchmen partly because of how horrible I found Sin City.

Also, I really like Garden State.  This was before I had started understanding the Manic Pixie Dream Girl thing, so probably another film I shouldn’t go back to.

Comment #67: Katherine  on  02/15  at  04:51 PM

Far Away, So Close. Sweet Jesus, is that movie awful.

Comment #68: Entomologista  on  02/15  at  04:56 PM

The movie I hate?  Blindness.  Hateful dreck.  Rape porn.  Tries to be “deep” b/c a man can’t care for his wife/partner anymore b/c she can still see, and therefore can’t really understand him anymore, even though she’s gone into quarantine/prison/hell to support him.

Caren, have you read the book? It’s basically the same fucking thing except there’s no grammar and it’s written very stream of conscious and I absolutely hated it. It’s the second book in my life that I’ve stopped reading and refused to pick up again.

As for movies, the one I can think of off the top of my head is Slumdog Millionaire. All my friends loved it but I guess I didn’t find little kids falling into piles of shit enjoyable.

Comment #69: UltraMagnus  on  02/15  at  05:01 PM

So late to the party but oh well…

Thoughts?  What movie that got roundly applauded did you find tedious, cliched, or intellectually bankrupt?

I honestly liked the movie, if only for many of the reasons guy guys didn’t.  Specifically, it was a movie about selfish, mean spirited, angry, miserable people.  Kevin Spacey WAS a dick.  His daughter was a grouch.  His neighbor was a repressed jerk with anger management issues.  The girl Spacey’s character falls in lust with is the quintessential teenage Mean Girl and would have fit in as the villain of just about every Cheerleader flick.

These were all bad people.  The world was filled to the brim with horrible human beings.  And I think that was the point.  They lived in a dystopian suburbia wrecked not by suburbia itself, but by its residents.

Kevin Spacey’s journey is ultimately about making himself happy.  The surrounding characters are, likewise, trying to find happiness.  The wife is looking to advance her career and rekindle her love life.  The daughter is fighting for her independence from her parents.  The neighbor is struggling with his own homosexual urges.  The cheerleader is exploring her sexuality.  And the climax - when Spacey turns down the cheerleader - isn’t about painting his character as some noble hero.  It’s about his character’s realization that he doesn’t need to fuck a teenager to feel like a man, and that this WON’T make him happy in the long run.

Contrast this to the neighbor who tries to make out with Spacey, only to discover Spacey’s not gay.  Now the neighbor is more miserable then when the movie started, but he doesn’t settle for just sulking away.  He decides to murder his neighbor, which is ironic because killing Spacey only makes things worse for him.

So all the various story arcs follow the various people - all of them terrible - in their individual quests to find the antidote to their terribleness.  Happiness.

And in that sense, I thought it was an excellent movie.

Comment #70: Zifnab  on  02/15  at  05:15 PM

Enjoyed American Beauty, just because of the scene where Kevin Spacey tells off his boss, and I actually liked the (in)famous bag-in-the-wind scene. I will say that several of my female friends and acquaintances found Kevin Spacey’s character so repulsive that they couldn’t stand the movie as a whole.

A few years ago, my wife and I rented “Blue”, having heard it was this marvelous artsy film, and the whole movie we kept waiting for something to happen. If there’s genius in it, it sailed over my head without so much as a friendly wave.

Hated Forrest Gump, and didn’t like Philadelphia at all. “In the Name of the Father” which came out the same year as Philadelphia, was a far, far better movie.

Comment #71: Norsecats  on  02/15  at  05:17 PM

Also, I really like Garden State.

That movie was horrible and I knew it exactly five seconds before the opening credits rolled.

Dear Zach Braff -

YOU ARE NOT A GOOD ACTOR

Sincerely,
People with Taste

Comment #72: Zifnab  on  02/15  at  05:18 PM

Yeah, I was on the list of people who used to love American Beauty. It used to be one of my favorite movies, being the sole exception to me of a good version of the unfortunate rash of “dysfunctional family” movies where instead of actually exploring abuse or the effect of misogyny on children, happiness, and freedom, they would often through a bunch of unlikable characters against the wall and make the male paternal figure just oh so hopeless to deal with this randomly messed up set of characters.

But yeah, rewatching it these days hurts. I realize I was more responding to its drowning of the suburban myth while retaining characters with at least tiny shreds of likability or humanity. And most of all I was responding to the fact that Kevin Spacey is an incredible actor. The character’s actions are obscene, perfectly captured in Revolutionary Road by having Leonardo DiCaprio play that type without the sympathetic gloss. A combination of privilege, petulance, and displacing corporate and life impotence by taking it out on his wife and home life as if they were responsible. But Kevin Spacey can make you love characters and can be fricking brilliant as was demonstrated when he provided the sole saving point of the new Superman movie.

And I’d love to second Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind for the shitlist. Unlike Beauty I never liked it. It plays like it’s some big condemnation of how people get more enamored of the idea of a relationship or how men in particular get hung up on their idea of a woman rather than taking the time to find out who the woman is and get to know them and despite the statements of fans I can’t see how it’s some secret reversal when it seems to treat that world as somehow better and more worthy and some great thing because it just hurts so badly to lose someone who never existed and who never really mattered to you more than an idea or a role.

I think it’s mostly because I don’t watch MPDG movies, really ever, mostly because I skipped out of a lot of modern music and popular culture and thus just didn’t bother with movies about how alternachicks can be magical negroes with looser sexual morals and good soundtracks because they didn’t look like they were meant for me. I think a lot of people use it as I used Beauty as something to hold up and compare to the really bad movies in the same genre.

Basically American Beauty is great if you’re comparing it to all the awful suburbia isn’t really bad, kids are ungrateful and moms are overbearing “dysfunctional families” movies and TV shows from the same time. And ESoSM is probably great if you’re comparing it to all the awful “I want to be Kevin Smith and write a lust poem to the current musical culture” movies that have been flooding the last couple of decades.

On Vietnam movies, I maintain Jacob’s Ladder followed by Full Metal Jacket were the best of the bunch.

Comment #73: Cerberus  on  02/15  at  05:20 PM

I also hated American Beauty when I saw it; later that year I saw Fight Club and even though it is the same movie as American Beauty, I loved it. Probably because Fight Club is honest about its alienated man-child and American Beauty is completely fake.

Comment #74: joxn  on  02/15  at  05:30 PM

I’m with Mnem on “The Graduate”.  Just because Ben is the protagonist doesn’t make him a sympathetic character.  The only thing I really hate about that movie is the Most Tired Plot Device Ever (false rape accusation) , but the last scene really does work as intended.  Without it, the movie is nonsensical.  With it, it’s a dark swipe at Ben’s pretensions that he’s better than the Robinsons.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/15  at  05:36 PM

I’ve got to put in a good word for Y Tu Mama Tambien. Luisa isn’t a manic pixie dream girl. Time and time again, the guys are disappointed because they assume she’s a manic pixie dream girl, but it turns out that their desires and hers only coincide sometimes and she feels absolutely no compunctions about disappointing them.

<MASSIVE SPOILER>
For whatever reason, Luisa gets a kick out of “deflowering” these guys and playing the two boys off against each other. That’s not an inherently sexist trait for a female character. It’s just assumed that men like inexperienced women. (The boys aren’t actually virgins, but that makes it funnier because they think they’re so urbane and sophisticated about sex.)

In the end, the guys lose. Neither gets the girl, and their friendship falls apart because they are too blinded by macho bullshit to deal with each other after they end up in a three-way with Luisa. Luisa just walks away, having gotten exactly what she wanted out of the experience: A sexy road trip and a ride to the magical beach paradise.</MASSIVE SPOILER>

Comment #76: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/15  at  05:47 PM

Caren, have you read the book? It’s basically the same fucking thing except there’s no grammar and it’s written very stream of conscious and I absolutely hated it.

Nope, Ultra, and now I never, ever will.  Thanks for saving a few hours of my life.

Blindness is so bad that even when my husband rents crappy SciFi from Redbox—>nutty Japanese stuff that never really makes sense or things that might have been halfway decent if they’d had more than half a script, or things so bad it was funny if they hadn’t decided to make two-thirds of the movie gory/slasher/blowed up people real good crap—even the worse of that gets a pass now.

“At least it wasn’t Blindness.  I didn’t like it at all, and I wonder how they got Kyra Sedgwick and Michael C. Hall to take the gig, but at least it wasn’t Blindness.”

Comment #77: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/15  at  05:54 PM

I’m glad I’m not the only person who hated “The Graduate.”

Comment #78: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/15  at  06:05 PM

@Lindsay Beyerstein—THAT is what I walked away with from Y Tu Mama Tambien. Thanks for reminding me. I mean they don’t fully subvert the whole MPDG thing until the very end, it’s true, but she spends a lot of the movie succinctly deflating each boy’s ego.

Comment #79: Well, what?  on  02/15  at  06:19 PM

I’m going to defend Gattaca merely by saying that at least it isn’t Dead Poets Society.  First two-thirds: pap, but well-acted and well-filmed pap.  Last third: I can’t watch it.  It’s a celebration of teenage stupidity, teenage cowardice, and meaningless protests.

Comment #80: Maureen  on  02/15  at  06:24 PM

In my opinion, David Lynch got so bogged down during “Twin Peaks” that Wild at Heart became his “David Lynch” movie. The movie was a characture of itself, and it was all I could do to not walk out of the theater.

That movie felt like David Lynch scrawled “Wizard of Oz” on a brick and spent 2 hours bashing me in the head with it.

Weirdly, I hate most David Lynch movies (pale imitations of Bunuel that they are), and I didn’t like “Twin Peaks,” but I did like Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me.  I can’t entirely explain why, but for some reason that film actually felt like he finally realized that the sexual abuse he loves to show his female characters being subjected to is something that was very damaging to Laura Palmer and fucked up her life beyond repair.  I had never gotten that feeling from any other film of his.

Dentist was okay.  Hopefully I will not also be allergic to the new cement they used for the temporary, because that has made the last two weeks suck ass.

Comment #81: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  06:31 PM

The Piano.  What a piece of crap.

Gattaca can serve as a veritable textbook on how to make a good-looking, futuristic movie on the (very) cheap.  Looked good, cost little.  Bravo. Real SF for those afraid of the SF label.

Comment #82: Eric_RoM  on  02/15  at  06:34 PM

I think Kubrick did exactly two good films: Dr. Stangelove and Paths of Glory. Paths of Glory is a bit amazing because Kubrick got Kirk Douglas to act (as opposed to doing a star turn) for the only time in his career. Kubrick was a fine cinematographer - but as a director, feh!

Comment #83: david22  on  02/15  at  06:46 PM

Apocalypse Now is a terrible, terrible movie.
The Maltese Falcon, while not awful, is barely mediocre.
2001 is largely pretentious twaddle.
Unforgiven, despite claims to the contrary, was the same old lionizing of violence and macho mythos that Eastwood always makes.

Wow. You and I, were we to accidentally touch, would no doubt annihilate one another in an epic release of matter/anti-matter energy.

Which is to say: I disagree. A lot.

MALTESE FALCON barely mediocre? I… I don’t even know what to say to that, other than maybe movies aren’t something you are into?

Do you also hate RAIDERS or think it is over-praised?

Comment #84: jdobbin  on  02/15  at  06:56 PM

I LOATHED “Sideways” with a white-hot passion. God, what a horrible film. Surprised so many people were snookered into saying it was great. It was a horribly boring buddy comedy with a few wine references thrown it. Just horrible, awful dreck.

I love Sin City, but it leaves a big fucking bad taste in my mouth. The second chapter had me grumbling to my husband as we left the theater. I hated that all the hookers had to be rescued by the big strong white man. Gag me. Other than I admit I love it. I find it visually stunning and gritty and compelling.

Comment #85: Vacuumslayer  on  02/15  at  06:57 PM

I’m going to join the anti-Kubrick chorus. His movies always struck me as pompous, cold and humorless. (And yes, that includes Dr. Strangelove, which I found shrill and teeth-grindingly unfunny.)

To be fair, I didn’t see Paths of Glory.

Comment #86: Bitter Scribe  on  02/15  at  06:57 PM

I will add that I actively despised nearly every pretentious, self-aware and self-satisfied second of JESUS’ SON, and I went in enthusiastic after a bunch of recommendations from friends.

Comment #87: jdobbin  on  02/15  at  06:57 PM

“American Beauty really was awful…and I would say the same of any subsequently-directed Sam Mendes film, up to and including “American Beauty in the 1950’s”, i.e. Revolutionary Road, another movie that encouraged viewers to scoff at and look down on pretty much everyone in the entire movie, except for the main characters who saw through the bullshit but were powerless to escape it.  Mendes is like a middle-aged, pretentious Holden Caulfield.”

I liked his “The Road to Perditition” and it doesn’t have that vibe at all, IMO. It’s just a gangster story. See also his “Jarhead,” which was interesting in that it was mostly a war movie about how much it sucked to not get to fight in the war.

Comment #88: witless chum  on  02/15  at  06:59 PM

Hrm, I think probably the best Manic Pixie Dream Girl I can think of is Susan from the under-appreciated Desperately Seeking Susan, which is also one of only two screwball-escape-from-suburbia 80s films that really work for me. Of course, I think one of the reasons it works for me is that Susan is a MacGuffin for Roberta’s character development.

I also find it interesting that the screwball escape comedies that dominated the 80s turned into the plague of suburban tragedies including American Beauty, The Ice Storm, and Donnie Darko.

Comment #89: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  06:59 PM

Now, now, does either The Ice Storm or Donnie Darko deserve to be mention along the lines of American Beauty?  Surely they had more sympathetic characters?

Comment #90: shah8  on  02/15  at  07:05 PM

MALTESE FALCON barely mediocre? I… I don’t even know what to say to that, other than maybe movies aren’t something you are into?

Ha! I was actually a film major, a million years ago. I don’t have any serious dislike for Maltese Falcon, I just think there are way better noirs. Falcon makes so little sense every other scene involves the characters gathering together to try and explain what happened in the last one. The Big Sleep can’t quite follow its own plot, either, but it’s soooo much more fun to watch.

Comment #91: Egnu Cledge  on  02/15  at  07:06 PM

Pearl Harbor is a horrible movie. It did nothing for me. The love triangle and end were very predictable. The whole movie was predictable. You’re supposed to feel sorry for the 3 of them but I could care less.

Comment #92: Libertas  on  02/15  at  07:10 PM

YES. Thank you!
I also hate Garden State quite a lot.

Comment #93: Danica Lefse Queen  on  02/15  at  07:17 PM

Vacuumslayer, especially given that one set of damsels in distress happened to employ a fucking human cuisinart. But I guess the receptors in her vagina render her completely helpless when she comes within proximity of a big strong white man who could rescue her so much better than her gazillion swords could.

Comment #94: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/15  at  07:19 PM

shah8: At least to me, all three of them have the same theme of personal and internal conflict to find meaning within meaningless suburban environments. I won’t disagree that Donny Darko is a better movie for all the science fiction trappings piled onto Donny’s purgatory.

Comment #95: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  07:22 PM

libertas, i hate to break the news to you, but we already knew the end of pearl harbor, before the movie was ever conceived.

Comment #96: cpinva  on  02/15  at  07:23 PM

is “the works of Woody Allen” narrow enough to count as a single movie?

also, I’m gonna go ahead and drop Fight Club.

an anti-corporate message in a film by Fox studios. product placement to blow up cool looking bits of modernity.

Nothing like commoditizing the countercultural iconography.

Comment #97: karpad  on  02/15  at  07:24 PM

Eyes Wide Shut. Lordy, what an overblown, meandering, puffed-up, pretentious, sexist piece of crap that was.

As far as “Falling out of love,” I loved Garden State when I first saw it. Bought the DVD, even. The shine wore off with a couple more viewings. Now, I find that movie annoying as heck. I’m embarrassed by the well-to-do neurotic brooding and the pronouncements of JUST HOW WEIRD all the characters are.

I still like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, though. I don’t think it was an MPDG film at all; If Clementine looks two dimensional, it’s because we are seeing her chiefly through Joel’s eyes and memory. Most of the time, we aren’t seeing her at all.

Comment #98: maatnofret  on  02/15  at  07:37 PM

Does Moulin Rouge count?

For a few years after it came out, several of my friends were music students at the college in town, and it seemed that the “in” thing was to like Moulin Rouge. I remember after watching it at one of the dorms with a bunch of people; the music majors loved it, I was too confused to figure out what I thought of it, and my roommate summed it up as “Disney on acid”.  Later on, I watched it on TV and made it only half way through.

The main fault with MR is its plot incoherence and vagueness, but it also seems to be vaguely promoting a certain “nice-guy"ism: the whole “why won’t she be with me instead of that jerk?” attitude. Yeah, it’s wrapped in the seemingly good notion of praising “Bohemianism”* as better than being rich, but the character Satine is only really looked at from two angles - being the partner of “some guy” (either the rich or the poor one), and of suffering a deadly illness. Yeah, that’s real deep.

Recently, I’ve been getting interested in opera, and then I recalled that MR was based off of one of Verdi’s operas. There’s the other big problem - as a viewer, I’d much rather go to the original than this knockoff. If the music was actually good, that’d be different, but in MR, the use of contemporary music was hokey and trippy.

The one good thing going for it were the production values. That’s it.

*As a side note, is it just me, or does the very notion of using Bohemian in place of “alternative” as a bad cultural appropriation from actual Bohemians - that is, people from the area of Czech speaking lands called Bohemia?

Comment #99: Ben F.  on  02/15  at  07:39 PM

Good catch on “Moulin Rouge”—what a disappointment. Makes you hate a nice little song.  And the casting??  OY. Nicole Kidman should only ever play robots.

I have to disagree with the inclusion of Sin City in the discussion itself—there’s no way it was ever considered “arty”: it’s pulp through and through.

Comment #100: Eric_RoM  on  02/15  at  08:05 PM

Probably because Fight Club is honest about its alienated man-child

I guess I just don’t care about alienated white man-children enough because I didn’t care for Fight Club either.

Comment #101: DonnaDiva  on  02/15  at  08:15 PM

Sin City was high-concept pulp.

Comment #102: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/15  at  08:23 PM

As for movies, the one I can think of off the top of my head is Slumdog Millionaire. All my friends loved it but I guess I didn’t find little kids falling into piles of shit enjoyable.

You too?  The thing positively reeked of paternalistic romanticization of poverty.

Comment #103: DonnaDiva  on  02/15  at  08:24 PM

Perhaps not “arty,” but independent.  And timely!: Every Kevin Smith movie, ever.

I remember really liking Fight Club when it came out, but can’t stand it now for all the reasons mentioned above.  Plus, reading Chuck Palahniuk’s catalog, it’s clear that he has one successful narrative formula and nothing will ever tear him away from it.

I hate “American Beauty” for the same reason I hated “The Virgin Suicides,” because I wanted to sit down and re-write the movies from the girls’ point of view and don’t have the time or skill to do it.  On the other hand, I loved “Marie Antoinette”—eye candy, FTW.

Others:  Pulp Fiction (I resisted for a long time, finally watched it and walked away unimpressed), Requiem for a Dream (an after-school special masquerading as film), Hotel Rwanda (it sounds terrible considering the subject matter but it didn’t keep my attention), and Magnolia (the only redeeming factor is that Tom Cruise played himself).

Comment #104: Lauren  on  02/15  at  08:31 PM

Sideways was the most boring, pretentious, tedious load of crap I think I’ve ever seen.  I think what pissed me off most about Sideways was the incessant drunk driving, for no reason and with no consequences.  Also the fact that people saw it and decided it must be super impressive to disdain merlot.  It’s most entertaining when people sneer at a bottle labeled “merlot” and then happily buy a right-bank Bordeaux (which are usually 70% merlot).

I like Moulin Rouge, Gattaca, Fight Club, Donnie Darko, and Dr. Strangelove.  I also like Romeo + Juliet, which I’m sure many people hate—but I still think the final climactic death scene is played as strongly as I’ve ever seen it played. I still find myself hoping that this time she’ll wake up just a second sooner.

I liked American Beauty when I first saw it at age 17, but I haven’t seen it since. I don’t know how much of my liking for it was being 17, when movies about how suburbia kills your soul seem very deep and meaningful.  (Being 17 entirely explains the liking I had for Magnolia when it came out.)

Comment #105: snowmentality  on  02/15  at  08:38 PM

Juno: annoyingly self-aware, terrible dialogue, and the most agonizingly awful soundtrack I’ve ever experienced.

Signs: terribly boring for most of the movie, and then the “twist” was grade-A stupid. I also didn’t appreciate the heavy-handed religion theme.

Donnie Darko: I wonder if even the director had a clue what this movie is about. An example of a film that tries to pad its quality with a great soundtrack.

The Royal Tennenbaums: another example of “the-soundtrack-is-great-so-the-movie-must-be-too!” Boring, lack of sympathetic characters, and not funny.

Eyes Wide Shut: cold, sterile, bad acting all around, and boring.

Forest Gump: not an art film, but I hate it so much I’ve got to include it. It’s the cinematic condensation of all the right-wing platitudes we’ve come to loathe in the last forty years.

A Mighty Wind: I love some of the other Christopher Guest vehicles (although I didn’t really like “This is Spinal Tap”), but this movie was just dull. Eugene Levy’s overacting was pretty painful, too. And “For Your Consideration” was also a poor effort, in my opinion.

By the way, I disagree about American Beauty. I watched it two years ago and really enjoyed it.

Comment #106: Sadie Morrison  on  02/15  at  08:44 PM

Oh, and I also don’t get the Monty Python movies. They’re just not funny to me.

Comment #107: Sadie Morrison  on  02/15  at  08:45 PM

Roger Ebert earned huge respect from me for rewatching both “The Graduate” and “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” in recent years and revising his original high opinion of each.  In both cases, what bothered him most on the second pass was the films’ sexist attitudes.  “Cuckoo’s Nest” is one of the most misogynistic movies ever made—the entire premise is that men would all be living lives of joy and freedom if bitches didn’t keep oppressing them with their nagging and fun-killing and objecting to being raped.  A lot of anti-establishment movies from that period, on closer examination, are mostly just traditional macho posturing dressed up as countercultural rebellion.

“The Shining” is my favorite Kubrick movie even though I don’t think it’s very good.  It’s weird and imaginative and fun to look at, but I don’t think it says much of anything; maybe that’s why I find it more enjoyable than Kubrick’s “deep” movies.  Similarly, my favorite Wes Anderson movie is the totally silly and pointless “The Life Aquatic.”

Comment #108: Shaenon  on  02/15  at  08:46 PM

Thanks for bringing up Slumdog Millionaire.  I liked the first half but the second was pure hollywood drivel.  Also agree on Fight Club—I loved it the first time I saw it, but now I can’t believe I ever could have been able to sit through it.

Lauren, I recommend you watch Pulp Fiction again—I think it’s one of the best ever now, but I didn’t like it much the first time I saw it, either.

Oh, and let’s not forget You, Me and Everyone we Know - at least I think that’s what it was called.  God and sonny jeebus, what a horrible movie that we were told to like.

Comment #109: entrails  on  02/15  at  08:48 PM

@99: I feel the same way about the other big adaptation of that material Rent.

Comment #110: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/15  at  08:51 PM

Every Kevin Smith movie, ever.

Lord, yes.  I remember loving “Chasing Amy” when it came out, and I recently rewatched it and had no idea why.  Manic Pixie Dream Girl Syndrome crossed with a hateful protagonist with a stupid problem (it’s bizarre that we’re supposed to sympathize for one minute with Ben Affleck being mad at his girlfriend for having had a threesome, like, ten years ago), at least one long, heartfelt, overwritten speech too many, and Kevin Smith’s usual flat, lifeless directing style, which worked for “Clerks” thanks to the natural limitations of the staging but is just boring in all his other movies.  The only good bits are the funny scenes at the comic-book convention.

Plus I lost my favorite hat at a screening of “Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back,” so fuck that movie.

Comment #111: Shaenon  on  02/15  at  08:53 PM

Shaenon, I saw “Dogma” with an old boyfriend, and I remember realizing that I had to break up with him partially based on how much he loved that movie.

Comment #112: Lauren  on  02/15  at  09:00 PM

Schindler’s List, anyone?  I was convinced when it came out during my high school years, but now…yeesh.

I too want to defend Eternal Sunshine—it pretty much calls out the MPDG phenomenon with Clementine’s speech “too many guys think I’m here to save them etc, but I’m just a f-ked up girl looking for my own piece of mind.”  It always struck me as being pretty equally about two messed up, flawed people—not just one’s projection onto the other. It also maybe the only love-themed movie I ever saw as a single person that didn’t make me feel bad about being single.

I never saw The Reader and don’t for a second doubt Hollywood’s ability to reduce a nuanced book into a crappy, misinterpreted one-liner.  But the book is very good—the first half a little annoying, as it’s a young boy remembering an idealized first love.  Which is thoroughly taken apart in the second half, where the book proves to really be a careful meditation about coming to terms with one’s identity as the first post-Nazi generation of Germans; how to approach and metabolize the history, how to be responsible for one’s culture, what and how to forgive.

Comment #113: hjboerner  on  02/15  at  09:02 PM

Garden State is not, objectively speaking, a good movie, but so many things were correctly portrayed in that movie: I have been in suburban NJ houses that were just like Natalie Portman’s house, and Peter Saarsgard’s bedroom was a dead-on portrayal of the bedroom of that of my friends in suburban NJ.

But that is a lot of what gave American Beauty a lot of credit when Amanda saw it—some of the scenes are really well done and some of the characters are good, but it ends up being much less than the sum of its parts, and you realize there really not much “there” there.

Comment #114: Tyro  on  02/15  at  09:08 PM

I didn’t mind American Beauty when I first saw it.  But then rewatched it later and hated it.  Especially the fact that we were supposed to hate, hate, hate Annette Bening’s character.

Movies I’ve hated when everyone loved them

Iron Man
Children of Men
V for Vendetta

Pretentious and fascist…each and every one.

Comment #115: Melponeme_k  on  02/15  at  09:12 PM

Garden State and Juno are two total pieces of shit that made me angry as I watched. I don’t know if it’s any kind of prototype, but Rushmore and Bottle Rocket really had a quirkyness to them that made them enjoyable. It’s like the makers of GS and Juno tried to copy that, and sucked.

Napoleon Dynomite makes me feel that as a culture, we don’t know what we’re supposed to think is funny, so when something quirky and ironic comes out, if some people laugh, we all guffaw audibly to prove we’re in on the joke. I get it. Have a pet llama, and call it a pig. WHEEEEE! We’re quirky! And Vote for Pedro t-shirts might as well say, “I’m an asshole who needs to be told when to laugh”.

I also remember everyone back in the 70’s thinking Animal House was some kind of masterpiece, but Porky’s was a pale ripoff. 2 sucky pieces of shit that lots of people should be apologizing for.

Comment #116: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  09:17 PM

The Piano.  What a piece of crap.

Seriously.  My husband absolutely loves this movie.  Loves it.  In 12 years together, I’ve never made it all the way through that movie.  It is awful and boring and really, I don’t see the point.  Also, Holly Hunter irritates me.  I know it is awful of me, but there’s something about her mouth that makes it nearly impossible for me to watch her.

We have agreed to disagree about this.  I’ll ignore it when he has to watch this movie.  And he’ll ignore my irrational love of 80s brat pack movies.

Comment #117: ks  on  02/15  at  09:19 PM

@106

Wow, there’s another one. I always feel bad being a dark comedy loving geek who seems to be one of the few people who just hated Donnie Darko from the start. The main character sucks and having not grown up in the 80s the long continuous blowjob of the 80s but with dark alienated spin didn’t make me feel nostalgic enough to avoid noticing that there really weren’t any likable characters and ignore that the plot was sci-fi lite bullshit for people who are scared off by anything to genre. Ooh, time travel, yeah, that space is innovative enough to forgive the openly shallow exploitations of it, the endless dwelling on characters who lack any redeemable features and yet not enough nihilism or point to be a really good black comedy.

It’s like they basically took the Easter Bunny, Todd MacFarlaned the shit out of it, threw in some 80s nostalgia, added a metal chain to it, and threw in some elements of genre without understanding how to use them or what makes them interesting and we’re all to ooh and aah because it’s non-descriptively edgy about the candy-coated memories of gen y/gen x-er male loner types.

@108

Well yeah. I personally love the book, on the aspects of sanity, difference, conformity, treatment of the mentally ill, and the oppressive nature of society especially that of the 60s to try and squash the natural human diversity of the world. And the movie retained a number of elements of this reasonably competently.

However, my love of the book has to appreciate those aspects wholly separate from the fact that Ken Kesey has capital letter Issues with women and blacks. Black people are animalistic, semi-cognizant brutes. Women are domineering, controlling, emasculating leaders of the oppressive society or literal personality-less fuckhole prostitutes who cheerfully offer to fuck anyone and avoid having personal opinions. And just as faithfully, the movie retains the incredible misogyny and racism of Ken Kesey’s masterpiece to create just as problematic of a movie. And it’s a movie I’ve only been able to watch once, because as hard to avoid it in the book as it is, it’s just so much harder to hide the raw viscerality of the hate in a visual medium.

Comment #118: Cerberus  on  02/15  at  09:22 PM

The list would be too long to compile for me (needless to say, I stay away from the Tarantino threads because of it), but I would like to use the argument from authority fallacy to stick up for Kubrick and one of my top 10 favorite films (Barry Lyndon) by using Brian Eno.

That said, one of the great film critics in Britain had a comprehensive book about world cinema, but didn’t include anything about Bergman or Antonioni because he admitted he had a complete blind spot towards their work and didn’t want to poison the rest of the book with his vitriol. Somebody upthread typed basically the same thing about Godard’s body of work, and it definitely applies to me as well.

My new favorite genre is minimalist, adult-oriented action movies at the cusp of the ratings system and the rise of the director: stuff like The Quiller Memorandum, Point Blank, Bullitt, and anything by Jean-Pierre Melville in the last decade of his life.

Comment #119: norbizness  on  02/15  at  09:43 PM

As for the Maltese Falcon, I don’t think film noir existed as a genre yet, at least consciously. I don’t think that came until Double INdemnity with some of the unique cinematography that was done. Plus, it’s a pretty good directorial debut.

Also, without Syndey Greenstreet and Peter Lorre, how would Ren have come up with all those insults for Stimpy?

Comment #120: norbizness  on  02/15  at  09:52 PM

A lot of anti-establishment movies from that period, on closer examination, are mostly just traditional macho posturing dressed up as countercultural rebellion.

Another example:  Five Easy Pieces.  I’m sorry, I’m supposed to like Jack Nicholson’s character after he berates the waitress at the truck stop?  It’s a fucking truck stop, not the Ritz-Carlton, so what are you getting so goddamned upset about when you can’t get any toast?

Comment #121: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  09:54 PM

@121 - Karen Black is truly made out to be a furry-tentacled monster, isn’t she? Good thing Jack Nicholson finally evaded the clutches of her evil, soul-sucking, black-hole vagina.

Comment #122: I Heart Puppies  on  02/15  at  09:59 PM

I have to defend “Eternal Sunshine”.  Charlie Kaufman is not interested in stories that center around sympathetic protagonists, full stop.  Movies generally don’t flout that convention.  So audiences expect it, and when they don’t get it, they get upset.

Antiheroes aren’t the same as unsympathetic protagonists.  Antiheroes gain your loyalty despite your better angels, like Vic on “The Shield” or Don Draper on “Mad Men”.  Nothing against that—-it implicates the audience in their misbehavior and brings us to ask hard questions.

But Kaufman is doing something different, at least in “Eternal Sunshine” and “John Malcovich”.  The characters are unsympathetic.  You don’t feel warmly to them, and sometimes you root for them to fail. The distance allows him to engage certain ideas in ways that you can’t with other kinds of storytelling.  I like it; I don’t know what the limits are in terms of storytelling, but it’s certainly refreshing to see someone do something differently successfully.

Comment #123: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/15  at  10:14 PM

Coming very late to the party, but I must say that I thought Chasing Amy is going to be Kevin Smith’s best movie by far.  I agree that the protagonist is not likable for a variety of reasons, but they key (to me) is that he is not ‘rewarded’ by the movie for his conduct.  The movies that I loathe have jerks who get happy endings without any change or redemption.

Completely agree with hating Forrest Gump.  I will tell all and sundry that all four other Best Picture nominees in that year (Shawshank Redemption, Quiz Show, Four Weddings and a Funeral and Pulp Fiction) were all far superior.

Thought Titanic was a masterpiece of technical achievement dragged down by a three-cent story (gee, what other Cameron movie fits that criteria…).

Hated Erin Brockovich.  Didnt’ find her character to be ‘plucky’ or anything of the sort, but rather part of an ‘anti-education’ tirade about how education and training are things you don’t really ‘need’ as long as you can ‘talk to the little people’.

Didn’t like The Reader at all.  Didn’t find Winslet’s character at all sympathetic.

Comment #124: Aussiesmurf  on  02/15  at  10:14 PM

“Every Kevin Smith movie, ever.”

Thanks so much for this. I kind of wanted to post on the other thread that (family tragedy aside) I really don’t care if he croaks from abusing his body. However, I did not want to derail or stir the shit. Just to cover my ass further, I do not actively want him to die. I just would not be broken up or mourn his loss in any artistic or creative sense.

To be on topic- I hated American Beauty and wanted to slap the shit out of pretty much every character. An added irritant for me was Peter Gallagher, I have nothing against him as an actor or a person but he just makes my skin crawl. The shower masturbation (and the whole movie) scene just propelled forward my already growing dislike of Kevin Spacey. And on that note fuck Pay it Forward and K-PAX right in their feel-goody ears. I do not need to be prodded into being warm and squishy by ham-fisted screenplays and hackneyed directors.

I will out myself as someone who likes Wings of Desire. Perhaps it’s my Nick Cave crush leading me astray. Any other associated movies (Far Away, So Close) do blow and deserve the scorn they are receiving on this thread.

I generally enjoy Kubrick but think his films suffered from an apparent inability to self edit.

I don’t think anyone hates Forrest Gump as much as people named Forrest.  I know two and man do they both loathe that film with an intensity most people would find difficult to muster for such a trite piece of crap.

Comment #125: HooksInMyHead  on  02/15  at  10:25 PM

My reaction to American Beauty was that upper middle class Americans are compulsive and narrow in their outlooks of the world.  Sure, they are also trapped by suburbia.  But not at one point, on either the parts of the males nor the females in the movie, did I see genuine creativity, transcendence or intellectual prowess at work.  This movie was more comic than tragic, although it did have a slightly whistful mood running all the way through it.

Comment #126: scratchy888  on  02/15  at  10:41 PM

That movie[Wild at Heart] felt like David Lynch scrawled “Wizard of Oz” on a brick and spent 2 hours bashing me in the head with it.

Oh Mnemo, that is the funniest and truest thing you have ever written.  I was so disappointed in that flick.  Bashed in the head with a brick indeed!

Which leads me to why I never trust a 4-star movie review: Natural Born Killers.

Utter shit.  Ebert was so impressed, but if you’d ever seen MTV videos (which I most certainly had) there was nothing new in the quick cuts, animation, fantasy sequences, etc.  Utterly derivitive and an utter bore.  Had the film not been sold out and my friend and I separated in the packed theater, I would have walked out.  I couldn’t wait for them to just kill everyone and escape so the movie could be OVER.

That said, at least neither of those movies were Blindness, though Wild at Heart does come close.

Comment #127: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/15  at  10:43 PM

And since The Reader keeps coming up, I just have to post this clip of Kate Winslet on “Extras.”

She must have bribed Ricky Gervais to keep his mouth shut after she was nominated.

Comment #128: Mnemosyne  on  02/15  at  10:45 PM

I had a hard time with Natural Born Killers because of Juliette Lewis who I like as a musician but can’t stand as an actor. Oooh…that reminds me. Who hates What’s Eating Gilbert Grape? Anyone with me?

Comment #129: HooksInMyHead  on  02/15  at  10:52 PM

I (Heart) Huckabees - bored and gagged to death simultaneously in the first and only viewing.

Anything Tarantino - every frame of all his work is tragically dipshit-hip violence porn for demented 12-year-old revenge-addled boys; Beavis and Butthead meets gratuitous arthouse fanboy nostalgia schtick.  Did I mention I don’t like Tarantino?  Dictionary definition of Tarantino:  PANDERER. LOVE ME EVERYBODY. PLEASE. DESPERATE HERE!

Anything directed by Clint Eastwood - ANYTHING!  He’s always at least 25 years behind the times and still not convincing.  His films are therapy for him, boring reruns of obvious reality for me.

American Beauty - as pretentious as I was at the time. Now I am slightly less so. American Beauty? Moreso.

The Eternal Spotless Record of Jim Carrey’s Mindless Star Turns - Carrey is the most transparently and nauseatingly insincere and unconvincing actor ever, his slimy oozing vanity ruining his characters in ways geometrically greater than does the vanity of many, many other vain actors combined.  He was either incredibly perfect for his pathetic role in Spotless Mind of someone who will always be the sociopathic permanent warped ruinous adolescent boy-man, or he totally ruined whatever chance the movie had of being successful in any way whatsoever. Spotless Mind taught no one anything they didn’t already know, unless they’re incapable of learning, in which case it only reinforced the ignorance.

California Split - Altman, George Segal, Elliott Gould. Loved it the first time, in ‘70s.  Two years ago? Been there, lived that. Boring, trite, slowww.  I love Gould, though, and still swear by his performances in The Long Goodbye (d: Altman) and Little Murders (d: Alan Arkin; writer: Pfieffer). Still love both of those films too.

Five Easy Pieces & Cuckoo’s Nest - yeah, Nicholson’s women-hating obnoxious characters mixed with the era’s James Dean rebelliousness, and Nicholson’s having been a new breed on the scene.  Easy to see why I loved them (in my early and then later teens).  Now….I’m sorry, women!  And Nicholson’s crazed string of quirky ‘Lex Lothario’ personae got way old very quickly.

Re Gilbert Grape?  Liked it when first came out.  Now I can’t even make myself watch it FOR FREE a second time. Whatever happened to the actor that played Gilbert?

Comment #130: News Nag  on  02/15  at  11:06 PM

The Maltese Falcon is awesome. 

It makes no sense whatsoever.  You just have these awesome actors with great lines trying to cover up that what they’re doing makes no sense whatsoever. They need a patsy, a fall guy!  I get stuck watching it everytime, just like The Blues Brothers.

As for rewatching movies, I loved A Room with a View.  Loved it.  Saw it was on cable a week or so ago and thought “Hey, that’s a great little flick, I’ve only missed a little, let’s watch again!”

And I HATED it.  Absolutely hated it.  How could I have ever loved it?  It made me want to reread the book, b/c I loved that, too, to try to figure out what. the. fuck.

Then I realized: My major in college was the Victorian novel and how it related to 20th C film.  I read a LOT of Victorian novels, and the main fucking point of most of them is that to be a proper woman, you have to sacrifice your happiness.  Propriety must be observed, and you simply can’t go with the flow or take control of your life if that means someone else might be made sad, even briefly, and you must never overstep your place.  By the end of school, I threw The Fucking Mill on the Fucking Floss across the room b/c I just couldn’t take it anymore. 

Lucy breaks off her engagement to the stuffy Cecil, whom she doesn’t really love, and runs off with the romantic, but poor, boy she does. They’re going to enjoy Italy together, and she’s going to live life with the same passion she has when she plays the piano.  She’s making herself happy because she can, and if everyone else is disappointed?  Too bad.  Go pick on Maggie Tulliver instead.

It’s just such a relief from the usual Victorian misery, that I can see why I revelled in it then and didn’t mind the forced kisses and other shit.

Comment #131: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/15  at  11:13 PM

Right. Iron Man was pretentious and fascist. You people.

It was pure art, Chet.

Comment #132: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/15  at  11:15 PM

I haven’t seen most of these movies because, quite honestly, I don’t like modern realism, either in film or in novels.  Detective stories, superheroes, science fiction and fantasy - *that* is my catnip, and I’ll take a well-done genre flick like Star Trek II any day over American Beauty.

That said, here are some critically acclaimed movies that I’ve seen that I flat-out hated:

- The Birds.  First, it’s stupid (seagulls attacking humans?  Why?).  Second, the misogyny practically oozed from the screen.  I’m amazed Tippi Hedren ever went near a movie set again.

- Forrest Gump.  Reeked of condescension toward the mentally handicapped, the counterculture, and pretty much everyone in the world.  I wanted to stuff a box of chocolates up Robert Zemeckis’s posterior.

- St. Elmo’s Fire.  I was about the age of the Brat Packers when this piece of swill came out, and NONE of the characters rang true to me.  My friends and I were too damn busy making a living to have existential crises about the horrors of yuppydom.

- The Breakfast Club.  Ditto the above.  First of all, I have *never* heard of a detention taking place on a Saturday morning.  Ever.  And not only did I suffer through the hell that is the American high school, my mother was a high school teacher for thirty years, and *she* never heard of such a thing either.  Add in that the detention takes all morning (??), that the teacher supervising these supposed miscreants isn’t around for most of the movie on very flimsy grounds, and that the supposed burn-out (Matthew Modine?) shows *zero* signs of either drug use or alcohol, and what you have is a piece of sanitized horseshit cleverly disguised as a teenage bonding movie.

- In fact, I might as well say that I can’t stand any of the John Hughes 1980s movies or their imitators except 16 Candles, which at least was *funny*.  The only movie about teenagers from that time period that worked for me was Say Anything…., and that’s because for once the bright, sensitive girl actually got to achieve *her* dream with the help of her boyfriend, not the other way around.

- Moulin Rouge.  Yes, Ewan McGregor and Nicole Kidman can sing, and yes, the set design and photography is gorgeous.  But the script is ridiculously overwritten, and *why* are all the women dressed as whores?

- Star Wars I, II, and III.  PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET SUFFERING JESUS KILL GEORGE LUCAS BEFORE HE CAN DIRECT AGAIN. 

- Pretty Woman.  Sorry, but even though Julia Roberts is stunningly beautiful, this is a movie about a prostitute that does not once mention AIDS, drug abuse, or the reality of life as a streetwalker.  It makes it look like *fun* to sell one’s body, and a nifty cool way to find one’s True Love.  *BARF*

- Ivan the Terrible.  I actually started laughing hysterically halfway through this one when my professor showed it during Russian history class in college.  Not Sergei Eisenstein’s best hour.

Comment #133: Ellid  on  02/15  at  11:23 PM

Garden State and Juno definitely, but I’d add Amelie in there too. People don’t talk like that. People don’t act like that. You start out with that kind of privileged, pretentious, look-at-me brand of manufactured quirkiness and you end up with every mobile phone advert on TV, filled with idiots in bright T-shirts doing KER-RAZY THINGS because THEY’RE JUST SO FUN AND YOUNG AND INDEPNDENT THINKING. It’s the ultimate symbol of the death of depth or political thought in popular culture. Well, it leads to that and Josie Long. Also can’t bear Eggers, Foster Wallace, Safran Foer, etc., etc. for similar reasons.

But as for everyone else’s comments, I’m reading this and banging my head against the wall. People think The Deer Hunter is a better ‘Nam film than Apocalypse Now? It’s incredibly boring in long stretches, racist and has an ending so unrealistically hollywood it would make Michael Bay blush. AN captured the spirit of the war perfectly, the sense of madness and unpredictability and brutality pervading everything and the sense of being trapped in all that on a massive scale with nowhere to go.

And Kubrick? I can understand people not liking Lynch (though I’m a big fan) but Kubrick’s in my opinion the greatest director ever. The Shining has nothing to say? It’s arguably the greatest demolition of traditional masculinity ever captured in a mainstream hollywood film. I could bang on and on about Kubrick films all night but suffice to say, they’re mostly all great and each of them has a distinct message about the nature of society and how it affects people caught up in it. I think in general, you get a lot more out of films when you realise that the protagonist isn’t necessarily meant to be the ‘hero’, unless you really think Starship Troopers, for instance, is a pro-fascist film.

Comment #134: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  02/15  at  11:35 PM

I love Y Tu Mama Tambien, and I’m not sure how anyone could see Luisa as a MPDG. She is clearly shown as having her own desires and motivations, and they are as complex and developed as the male characters’ (if not more). Her story is heartbreaking. So is the boys’ story, in a different way. The stories happen to coincide, but they only continue to do so because of her conscious decision.

I’m not sure if it counts as arty, but I haven’t cared for any Tarantino movie other than Kill Bill, and I still don’t understand why anyone likes Garden State.

Comment #135: stonebiscuit  on  02/15  at  11:41 PM

If David Foster Wallace inspired any willfully quirky Amelie-style behavior, this manic pixie will eat her brightly colored t-shirt.

Comment #136: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  02/15  at  11:42 PM

Jack Nicholson isn’t meant to be seen as a heroic character in Five Easy Pieces, and I don’t think anyone was exactly cheering in the last scene, throughout the film it’s made clear that he finds it impossible to deal with his feelings or responsibilities in any capable way. Haven’t seen Cuckoo’s Nest in ages so can’t really comment, except to say Fletcher reminded me of a couple of managers I’d had previously.

And hold on a second Ellid, you didn’t like Ferris Bueller’s Day Off? Am I reading that right?

Comment #137: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  02/15  at  11:42 PM

I find Chasing Amy a lot more tolerable if I keep in mind that - intentionally or not - the plot is more or less Much Ado About Nothing. It shares the jarring, random, wow-the-male-hero-is-a-jerk argument that breaks up all the funny. The parallel is also funnier if you believe the Shakespeare scholars that insist that the title of the play translates, pun-wise, to “a whole lot of fuss about vagina”.

Comment #138: purpleshoes  on  02/15  at  11:47 PM

I thought The Birds was good. The point of a bunch of birds turning malevolent killers is that it is uncanny and weird. My favorite bits are when it shows its age though. At one point a truckdriver walks into a bar for a bloody mary to relax before he gets back to driving and no one says anything about it.

Comment #139: pharmakos  on  02/15  at  11:52 PM

Maybe the wine coolers were stronger back in the day, but I honestly can’t remember anyone thinking that St. Elmo’s Fire, Joel Schumacher’s follow-up to the admittedly groundbreaking D.C. Cab, was an arty film.

Comment #140: norbizness  on  02/15  at  11:54 PM

And that douche at the Onion that cringes at Living Colour now can eat a bowl of dicks.

Comment #141: norbizness  on  02/15  at  11:59 PM

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET SUFFERING JESUS KILL GEORGE LUCAS BEFORE HE CAN DIRECT AGAIN.

Yes.  Please.  Just take the money and run, George.

Ellid, where did you grow up?  Because all day Saturday detention was real in the 80s.  At my school, you could get cafe jugs (Judgment Under God, the name for detention at Jesuit/Catholic schools) where you cleaned the lunchroom all through lunch, after school jugs for an hour or so, or Saturday jug for major infractions, which lasted a whole school day long, but on Saturday.

Hughes is writing about Chicagoland high school.  I liked Breakfast Club and thought of it as Big Chill for Gen X.  It still is, but neither movie seems very good anymore.  They were never “arty” though, just popular.

I can’t enjoy 16 Candles anymore b/c of the rape and the easy way our ‘hero’ Jake just hands off his drunken girlfriend to be raped.  And how she’s just fine with the rape afterward.  I only want to hear the Thompson Twins’ “If you were here”.

Comment #142: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/16  at  12:09 AM

With some of these movies that we like at first and then realize that they were crappy all along- do you think that the good acting is the factor that convinces some of us into liking said films?

For instance, with Garden State, Natalie Portman’s acting impressed me, so at the time I did like it. If I saw it again, I’d probably be annoyed, but there is at least a rational reason why I liked it. With American Beauty, it’s the same thing by an even bigger factor, as all of the actors did a great job , even though I’m pretty much in agreement with Amanda about all the problems of the plot.

Confession: I still do like Forrest Gump and watch it every time it’s shown on TV. I do see the problem with how it’s unfaithful to the book, though. Doesn’t stop me from getting misty-eyed when Forrest and Jenny give each other goodbye glances and “Turn, Turn, Turn” cues up.

Comment #143: Ben F.  on  02/16  at  12:10 AM

The main fault with MR is its plot incoherence and vagueness, but it also seems to be vaguely promoting a certain “nice-guy"ism: the whole “why won’t she be with me instead of that jerk?” attitude. Yeah, it’s wrapped in the seemingly good notion of praising “Bohemianism”* as better than being rich, but the character Satine is only really looked at from two angles - being the partner of “some guy” (either the rich or the poor one), and of suffering a deadly illness. Yeah, that’s real deep.

One of the things I like about theatre over film is the much broader range of interpretative possibilities…I was in Traviata last year, and it makes such a difference when people can act. If Alfredo is good in act I, you can see why Violetta falls for him; if she’s good, you can see that she’s falling for him and that the cabaletta is her desperately trying to convince herself that she isn’t. The end of act II, and act III, basically require the tenor to stop playing the hero, because Alfredo is a douche and everyone ought to be on board with that. (Likewise Douphol can be a one-dimensional ass, or he can be proud and standoffish but still pissed off when Alfredo insults someone dear to him. Our show was double-cast, so I got to see both.)

...Anyway, that was a long digression, but what I meant to get to is that I think in Traviata it’s not just the guys - it’s also the lifestyles they represent. Otherwise act IV would be horrible. I haven’t seen Moulin Rouge, so I don’t know what it does with that.

I don’t have an issue with modernization per se - I think that Rent in particular throws every ounce of Bohème‘s character development out the window so it can be *edgy* instead.

What movie that got roundly applauded did you find tedious, cliched, or intellectually bankrupt?

I thought 500 Days of Summer was absolute shit. The gimmick had been done before, and it has nothing else to recommend it - the man is unsympathetic and the woman is deathly boring.

I mean, the director has stated that she’s intentionally a MPSG and that it’s supposed to be a coming-of-age rather than a romance, but that doesn’t work when the protagonist makes you want to tear your face off. (Also, the director says that Tom doesn’t see Summer’s complexity…dude, she’s barely a one-note character. You can’t say that it’s from the perspective of a shallow person as an excuse for lack of character development.)

Comment #144: Rebecca  on  02/16  at  12:11 AM

Rebecca,

What a coincidence, I’m actually listening to La Traviata right now on the radio!
Thanks for bringing up those details.I’ve actually never seen a production of La Traviata. Those are some aspects I’ll have to watch out for when I get a chance to visually see a production. And yeah, I think I probably should give the plot of it a chance rather than just assuming that it’ll have the same problems as Moulin Rouge.

Comment #145: Ben F.  on  02/16  at  12:19 AM

I grew up just south of Pittsburgh (Thomas Jefferson High School ‘78).  Our detentions were always after school.  Maybe it’s a regional thing?  My high school library wasn’t two stories tall, either. wink

As for Ferris Bueller…*meh*  It had its moments, but it’s not my favorite by any means.  Couldn’t suspend my disbelief, even though Matthew Broderick was a hoot.

Finally…I know St. Elmo’s Fire wasn’t a critical favorite, but every once in a while I see something on TV or the Internet where someone talks it being an iconic 80s movement.  I really hope this isn’t going to be one of those New Classics that everyone suddenly claims to like twenty years later….

Comment #146: Ellid  on  02/16  at  12:42 AM

Agree with lots of these mentioned here, for basically the same reasons. I watched Five Easy Pieces a few years back and was infuriated because Karen Black was the only character I liked, even though the movie treated her as a joke. She was the only one who was ever honest about who she was and what she wanted!

Going way back, I can no longer watch The Philadelphia Story. There’s a ton of old movies with the theme that an uppity woman has to be put in her place, and most of them I can just rationalize, but TPS is so charming and fun up until that point and then out comes the hateful crap about how Tracy has to let the men walk all over her because they “love” her. I just can’t stand it.

Comment #147: sophronia  on  02/16  at  01:13 AM

Natural Born Killers.

Comment #148: Lauren  on  02/16  at  01:13 AM

Elleid, I can assure you, from personal experience, that there are Saturday detentions that are held all day.  All fucking day long.  Unfortunately, every one I was made to attend was strictly chaperoned and did not involve pot, lipstick in cleavage, romance, or heart-to-hearts with my fellow attendees.

Comment #149: Lauren  on  02/16  at  01:36 AM

St. Elmo’s Fire wasn’t a critical favorite, but every once in a while I see something on TV or the Internet where someone talks it being an iconic 80s movement.  I really hope this isn’t going to be one of those New Classics that everyone suddenly claims to like twenty years later….

I think St Elmo’s Fire is the movie that launched the phrase “Brat Pack”, which gives it more meaning that it could possibly deserve.  It is a classic “Brat Pack” movie, except it’s missing Molly Ringwald, who must have lost out to Ally Sheedy who has her typical part.  Demi took the Ally part of crazy girl.

They’re all so interchangeable.  John Cusack wanted the Judd Nelson bad boy role in BC, and I can see him in it—he’d just be a more damaged, less tough guy version.

Comment #150: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/16  at  01:48 AM

Haha, count me in as one of the ones who was suckered into thinking American Beauty was a great movie.
In my defence, I was 19 and I had just escaped my shitty suburban hell to attend art school away from home.  I deeply identified with the angsty teenagers.  When the douchey guy says that line - I think it goes “Sometimes there’s so much BEAUTY in the world…I can hardly stand it”.  I was like “Wow, that’s exactly how I feel!  This movie is deep!
Christ, I’m glad I’m not 19 anymore….

Comment #151: nico  on  02/16  at  01:55 AM

OK, V for Vendetta was fascist? WTF?

1) Wrong end of the political spectrum
2) The graphic novel is left-anarchist leaning. The movie basically tones that theme enough that it’s turned into some mild moderate-liberal denounciation of neo-conservativism.

Comment #152: BlackBloc  on  02/16  at  01:59 AM

2001 is largely pretentious twaddle.

I have to defend this one. The main lacking of the movie is the largely incoherent storyline, which makes much more sense if you’ve read the book (despite the continuity differences). I enjoy the movie largely because of the cinematography and special effects—there just isn’t that much else, but that stuff is good. Helps that I’m a science fiction fan, so a lot of it just pushes my buttons right.

@sophronia: I was disappointed to find out Five Easy Pieces wasn’t some adaptation of the Feynman book of the same name. Of course, then it would just be something that would get shown in classrooms for some reason or another.

I have to nominate What the Bleep do We Know!? for a high spot in Worst Movies Ever. I’ve never seen it, but just reading about how badly it mangles quantum physics gives me a severe case of Pretentious (and WRONG) Shit Ahead.

Comment #153: truth is life  on  02/16  at  02:08 AM

Beavis and Butthead meets gratuitous arthouse fanboy nostalgia schtick. 

And the problem is…?

Comment #154: Well, what?  on  02/16  at  03:17 AM

“- Star Wars I, II, and III.  PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET SUFFERING JESUS KILL GEORGE LUCAS BEFORE HE CAN DIRECT AGAIN.  “
Funny you mention that, since the prequels really aren’t as different from the original trilogy (once you correct for nostalgia goggles) as people like to pretend…

Comment #155: Devonian  on  02/16  at  03:27 AM

Going way back, I can no longer watch The Philadelphia Story.

I can still watch it as long as I can start shouting at the TV during the most egregious parts, like when Tracy’s father blames her for his cheating on her mother.  That is some seriously fucked up quasi-incestous shit there.

I have to do the same thing with a lot of Preston Sturges films.  They’re a lot of fun, as long as you manage to ignore the incredibly racist scenes that occur whenever a black person appears onscreen. Stepin Fetchit was a model of dignity and restraint by comparison to, say, the train scene in The Palm Beach Story.  Because having drunk white men shooting at a cowering black bartender is funny!

Comment #156: Mnemosyne  on  02/16  at  03:28 AM

stuff like The Quiller Memorandum, Point Blank, Bullitt, and anything by Jean-Pierre Melville in the last decade of his life.

Yes!! One of my fav movies of all time is Army of Shadows.

Comment #157: t-ster  on  02/16  at  03:30 AM

I really liked Gattaca, though I’m not blind to its faults…Full Metal Jacket is totally engrossing to most of us who suffered through a particularly rough Basic Training, but the movie should be instantly shut off right after they graduate.

I’ve never managed to get all the way through Fight Club…it’s so (a) utterly impossible to care about Edward Norton’s character and (b) utterly impossible to find Brad Pitt’s character charismatic and compelling, though you are clearly supposed to. 

Oh my God, V for Vendetta, don’t get me started…blech.

Comment #158: Lisa KS  on  02/16  at  06:00 AM

“- Star Wars I, II, and III.  PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET SUFFERING JESUS KILL GEORGE LUCAS BEFORE HE CAN DIRECT AGAIN.  “
Funny you mention that, since the prequels really aren’t as different from the original trilogy (once you correct for nostalgia goggles) as people like to pretend…

Not that the original trilogy was a shining example of wonderfulness, but it had waaaaaaaay better dialogue in multiple places and oh, oh my, so much better acting.  Somehow, someway (I think partly because of the impossible, stilted dialogue, but that still isn’t sufficient to explain the depths here) people who I know darn well can act cuz I saw them do it prior to that movie (Natalie Portman and Samuel L. Jackson spring to mind) completely lost the ability to do so for this one movie.  Also, they did a lot better n-o-t trying to explain the Force in scientific terms in the first three…“Midi-chlorians?”  hee.

Comment #159: Lisa KS  on  02/16  at  06:09 AM

Also, I really like Garden State.

Wow, that was one egregious typo there - I meant I liked Garden State - past tense.  I haven’t seen it since then, and I think I’d better not.

Comment #160: Katherine  on  02/16  at  06:32 AM

I was at a friend’s place over weekend and she put on something that simply reinforced my burning hatred of everything that comes with the tag “rom-com”. This piece of crap was called The Girl Next Door and basically had the same plot arc as Sin City, but without the blood and gore. It was: impossibly perfect, smartassed suburban highschool Gary Stu character saves poor, hapless sexworker from her awful, vile, slutty self and validates her existence by “saving” her from an abusive boss by putting other exploited women in his path to be mown down. It could have been a truly sex-positive, feminist critique about the exploitational porn industry, abuse, exploitation, capitalism, conservatism wound into a coming-of-age story where an older female adult shows an immature teen how to be an adult, and they DON’T get together at the end because the woman has better things to do than serve some spotty oik and he needs to do the rest of his growing up by himself. But no. It’s just a rote piece of shit with patriarchal cliches up the wazoo, repackaged in pink fluffy wrapping. I laughed for all the wrong reasons when it was revealed that Gary Stu’s idea to save the day was to produce a vid on sex education using hardcore porn. Yeah, ‘cos fucking PORN is the answer to abstinence-only and will totes help you develop a healthy sexuality! My ass, Gary Stu.

The girl-next-door, by the time all the drama is over, gets to be… the smartasses girlfriend, with no furthur mention of development, while he and his all get to go to prestigious colleges, make loads of money right out of high school on the backs of pornulated women, who, convienently, disappear from the film without furthur comment. Even the “bad” guys - who were really just abusive misogynist douchebags - get rewarded on the backs of these women. That, I think, is what irritated me the most. It’s the Manic Pixie Dream Girl stereotype in bold. Underlined. I was slightly surprised that not one of the female characters were killed by near the end, having served their purpose as dude fodder. All the female characters in that movie are one-dimensional stereotypes and it’s obvious that they are just there to give the more important male characters something to do, literally and figuratively. The only reason I didn’t take the disc out of the DVD player and use it as a frisbee was because it wasn’t my house. I’m pretty sure I annoyed everyone at there by constantly saying: “Yeah right!” “That’s racist,” “That’s sexist” “As if!”.

Comment #161: Princess Rot  on  02/16  at  06:44 AM

Man, I came into this waaaay too late, but I have to agree with the few commenters above who mentioned “As Good As It Gets” and “Wings of Desire” - I so hated both immediately and could not figure out why damn near everyone around me sang their praises.
As for Woody Allen, I wouldn’t go so far as karpad@97 to denounce his entire opus - I love just about all of his earlier stuff, but have mixed feelings about most of his output after about 1980, with absolute almost cannot-be-expressed-in-words hatred for “Manhattan” and “Hannah & Her Sisters.”

Comment #162: EdoBosnar  on  02/16  at  06:45 AM

Ok, so as far as Saturday detention we definitely had it in CA in the late 90’s/early 00’s. My HS has the pretension of calling it “Saturday School” however, and far from learning I spent the day explaining how to make the delicious jello shots I served at my house party the night before wink

As far as crappy arty films go, I absolutely hate 8 1/2. Could you be MORE self absorbed than to make a film about what a creative genius you are and how your life is so hard?!?

I also hated the Truman Show…no lesson learned except possibly to play practical jokes

Comment #163: thatsnotironic  on  02/16  at  07:33 AM

I didn’t like Up. Not sure if anyone’s mentioned that.

Comment #164: MarinaS  on  02/16  at  07:56 AM

Yes, Iron Man and V for Vendetta were fascist and irreputable pieces of crap.

The lead character sells arms for his fortune.  And he proclaimed that he didn’t know what they were for… Right, that is like a mercenary claiming he fights for good causes and nothing else.  Then he is taken prisoner and gets to murder everyone…of course he only kills bad men stereotypes with racist overtones so the audience won’t have to be bothered with any kind of remorse or outrage.  I won’t even get into the misogyny that covers all this character’s relationships with the women in his life.

V for Vendetta

This is the story of a psychopath who abuses a woman he proclaims to love.  Because he wants to make her stronger.  He wants to turn her into a broken psycho like himself so she can understand the torture he experienced.

And does he have any plans for the kind of society that will take the place of the dystopia he lives in after he blows up a few buildings?  Nope.  He just blows up crap like the torturous psycho that he is.

Comment #165: Melponeme_k  on  02/16  at  08:52 AM

My list

Repulsion (rape fantasies. It’s astonishing that this director would go on to make a feminist horror classic, Rosemary’s Baby…not so astonishing that he would go on to rape a child)
The Horse’s Mouth (suffering male artist, and clear and too typical misogyny underlying its screed against bourgeois society)
Au Hazard Balthazar (von Trier avant le lettre, but this time a girl AND a donkey suffer, so the Catholic does von Trier one better)
M*A*S*H stupid male crap (see The Horse’s Mouth). Much better Altman? 3 Women. sort of like Images..if it weren’t pretentious crap)

Comment #166: medievalkarl  on  02/16  at  10:58 AM

I won’t even get into the misogyny that covers all this character’s relationships with the women in his life.

You also forgot about the fact that he’s portrayed almost constantly with an alcoholic drink in his hand, to the point of likely “having a problem” and OMG what will the children think? You know, sometimes, the protagonist is supposed to be a bit of a narcissistic douchebag in the beginning of the film.

Though I suppose if you hate every single character that Robert Downey, Jr. has ever played, then you’ll hate Iron Man, too, but that’s a matter of personal taste.

Comment #167: Tyro  on  02/16  at  11:01 AM

Did anyone see the movie Antichrist? It struck me as having potential to be an “arty film that can suck it,” but I never saw it, so I can’t say.

Comment #168: Tyro  on  02/16  at  11:03 AM

I have to agree about V for Vendetta. I haven’t read the graphic novel, so I don’t know if that’s a better story. I liked V for Vendetta the first few times I watched it (even bought it on DVD), and then just recently I watched it again with a friend and had a revelation: It Sucks.

V fails as even an archetype, and his quirkiness (oh, the flowery apron and love of old movies!) just emphasizes his shallowness as a character. I don’t know how I ever thought he and Evey had a “love story,” because his torture of her for the purpose of “making her stronger” was horrible. He just selfishly wanted to make her be like him so he wouldn’t be alone. And when the government is corrupt, he just blows things up. I can’t condone that kind of violent anarchism as a form of rebellion.

Evey in the movie is also completely shallow, not to mention Natalie Portman’s acting is horrible. That scene with her and the priest? The first time I saw it, I thought she was lying to him. I didn’t realize that the character actually was trying to warn him. My eight year old cousin could act more convincingly than that. Oddly enough, her acting is better AFTER Evey is tortured by V. But the first half is cringeworthy.

Most of the party members are completely shallow except for Finch, who is possibly the only interesting character in the entire movie. The only genuine scenes in the entire movie were the flashback about Ruth’s story (makes me tear up every time, no matter what I think of the rest of the movie), and the part where V talks to the female doctor.

Have to agree with everyone about Garden State and Juno. Also, I thought Fight Club was interesting in some ways, but I’m still not sure what the overall point was. It’s difficult for me to get into a movie where I dislike all of the characters and can’t find anything actually human about them.

Comment #169: ArtOfMe  on  02/16  at  11:26 AM

Re Gilbert Grape?  Liked it when first came out.  Now I can’t even make myself watch it FOR FREE a second time.

Even when re-enacted by by Squirrels?

Comment #170: Egnu Cledge  on  02/16  at  12:56 PM

I actually like Robert Downey Jr especially in films where gets to actually play a human being flawed or not.  He was fantastic in Zodiac.

He was not a human being in Iron Man.  He was a cardboard cutout of a figure in which the plot dictated who or what he had to be at any given moment.  And no amount of personal charm or acting ability from Downey Jr. was going to cover up the defects in that lack of a character.

Comment #171: Melponeme_k  on  02/16  at  01:23 PM

V for Vendetta the graphic novel is somewhat different from the movie in tone.  The situation is an awful lot like PlanetES.  The plot remains mostly the same, but everything that was transcendant about the print media was hollowed out for fear of blowing out minds or angering conservatives.  V for Vendetta the movie merely presented a safe, unchallenging anarchism that’s remarkably and traditionally liberal.  Of course, that made the undercurrents of the movie nonsensical, because the torture, violence, and all that gets to be pointless chum for the sadists who love movies.

Comment #172: shah8  on  02/16  at  02:11 PM

I have to nominate What the Bleep do We Know!? for a high spot in Worst Movies Ever. I’ve never seen it, but just reading about how badly it mangles quantum physics gives me a severe case of Pretentious (and WRONG) Shit Ahead.

More than any of the many, many worthy contenders here, THIS movie was the absolute worst thing to happen to cinema since the Star Wars prequels.  It’s the New Age equivalent of Expelled.  Bad science, bad everything.  Argh, I cannot tell you how many times people would rent this flick at the cool indie video rental store where I worked, and then say they loved it, regardless of my many warnings against it.  I just can’t understand how otherwise intelligent people with good taste would come away from this trash with anything but a bad taste in their mouths.  Ugh.

Comment #173: Dr. Locrian  on  02/16  at  03:06 PM

And re: V For Vendetta and Watchmen.  They have only the barest resemblance to their source material, so please don’t judge their political content based on these mostly horrible adaptations.

Comment #174: Dr. Locrian  on  02/16  at  03:08 PM

I had managed to forget ever seeing What the Bleep…  Holy shit!  Yep maybe worst ever.  There’s a real danger in following these threads, isn’t there?  Crackling fire behind the sofa as total douchebags wax on about utter nonsense as thought they actually aren’t trying to sell a douchebag belief system.  Kill me now.

Comment #175: entrails  on  02/16  at  03:53 PM

norbizness @ #144 - St. Elmo’s Fire and Reality Bites were really thought of as the first real “message” GenX movies. So even though they weren’t seen as high art, or highly regarded, they were heralded as the new voice of the next generation.

Ellid @ #134 - 2 things - The Birds was written after a news account of a northern California town where something happened, atmospheric, or something, and birds started attacking people. It was only for a few days, and not to the extent depicted in the film. Also, Tippi Hendron really didn’t work for a few years after Marnie, and she claimed Hitchcock had her blackballed for not sleeping with him.

I can’t even watch 16 Candles, not just for the patronizing attitudes towards little girls who are rewarded by having the hunk save them, but the outright racism is horrifyingly stupid. Why do we need to hear a gong, or Chinese-sounding music every time we see the Asian adoptee? The role is only slightly more offensive than Mickey Rooney’s Mr. Yunioshi in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. John Hughes is a bigoted piece of shit. I’m more proud of John Gacy living in Chicago than I am of John Hughes. I’m glad both are dead.

No film has ever made me want to run up to the screen with a bucket of paint like VisionQuest did. Oh, let’s pretend we’re honoring Native American mysticism with a remake of Rocky.

Comment #176: I Heart Puppies  on  02/16  at  04:38 PM

Edobosnar @ 163 - I like Woody Allen’s work, somewhat, and find stuff like Crimes and Misdemeanors interesting, although I was done halfway through, recently, on a rewatch.

My wife finds him so creepy, that if I bring home a WA movie, I’ll be watching it by myself. Mighty Aphrodite was worth the watch, but I really haven’t been able to watch his stuff with the same curiosity since it came out the he was fucking his kids.

Comment #177: I Heart Puppies  on  02/16  at  04:51 PM

And re: V For Vendetta and Watchmen.  They have only the barest resemblance to their source material, so please don’t judge their political content based on these mostly horrible adaptations.

Agreed.

One of the things that bugs me most about the film adaptation of V is the completely unnecessary addition of the St. Mary’s virus. One of the things that’s so frightening (and true-to-life) about book!Norsefire is that, like historical fascism, it didn’t need that kind of manipulation.

Comment #178: Rebecca  on  02/16  at  05:04 PM

Stubborn Kind of Fellow @ 135 - My brother-in-law was in nam, and says the bridge scene in Apocolypse Now is the most realistic scene of any Nam movie. The utter confusion and drug use was normal for alot of shithole situations there.

I can see where people find it long and drawn out, but not having been in the conflict, it seems to lay out alot of what I heard described, as far as confusion and surreality.

Comment #179: I Heart Puppies  on  02/16  at  05:11 PM

Has anybody mentioned Wes Anderson yet? Because his movies are shit. Not the shit. Just shit. Like, poop. From a butt.

Comment #180: Entomologista  on  02/16  at  05:12 PM

I’ve refused to watch the movie version of V for Vendetta because I respect the comic so much, even though its one of those comics I can’t stand to read. The most important thing is that V is Alan Moore’s version of Frankenstein’s Monster. We are led to sympathize with him as a victim of tragedy, but otherwise he is thoroughly a monster who can’t relate to others except through violence or manipulation.  V’s most moral impulse is the realization that anarchism can’t coexist with monsters like him, so he dramatically arranges his own death, and it’s astounding to me how the mask has become appropriated by some protest groups.

Evie’s relationship with him after her torture and rape is problematic, but I find a lot of Alan Moore’s sexual relationships to be either weird and kinky or problematic.

Comment #181: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/16  at  05:41 PM

@CBrachyrhynchos: That too. The film industry as a whole, I notice as a thread here, has trouble communicating that we are not supposed to like this protagonist.

Also, yeah, the film romanticized a relationship that wasn’t romantic. Fail.

Comment #182: Rebecca  on  02/16  at  05:56 PM

Apropos of nothing: In The Graduate, when Ben is speeding southbound on the 101 to Santa Barbara, he goes through a tunnel that, in fact, only goes north. I’m no movie critic, I’m jus’ sayin’.

Comment #183: Hornet  on  02/16  at  06:10 PM

The film industry as a whole, I notice as a thread here, has trouble communicating that we are not supposed to like this protagonist.

Just to be a pedant, I don’t think it’s the industry, I think it’s the actual medium that’s the problem.  There’s something about the intimacy of film (and, to a lesser extent, TV) that makes it very, very difficult for people to stand outside it and be objective the way they can be with a book or even a play.  I’ve tried to explain to people that Salieri is an unreliable narrator in Amadeus, but it’s so difficult to get that across when we’re literally seeing things happening in front of us and not having them described/narrated to us.  We just saw Mozart giggling madly as he plays the piano, so it must have happened that way.

Comment #184: Mnemosyne  on  02/16  at  06:17 PM

Mnemosyne: We’ve briefly talked this out before, is Salieri really an unreliable narrator? Or is it the case that the playwright is presenting a turd of a historical narrative that defames both characters? There certainly are cinematic and stage conventions for signaling an unreliable narrator, I don’t remember them being deployed in that movie.

Comment #185: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/16  at  06:25 PM

Generally though, I’m profoundly skeptical when it comes to biopics. Amadeus, in particular, stands out as being a complete work of irresponsible shit. It wouldn’t be so bad if it were not for the fact that biopics get routinely pulled into education. I really wish screenwriters writing historical fiction would, you know, write fiction with their own characters and conflicts rather than picking random historical figures to put into fictional conflicts.

Comment #186: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/16  at  06:38 PM

Mnemosyne @ #185 - If I may break in, I agree that film is a poor medium for subtleties, like a narrator with an agenda. Although I found Oliver Stone’s JFK to be mostly nonsense, he couldn’t change film types enough to give the impression that the scene was just an illustration of how the theory could have happened. I mean, like you said, IT WAS JUST THERE ON THE FREAKING SCREEN!!

You’ve suspended disbelief enough to accept the actors on screen as the real players, it’s not that much of a subliminal stretch to assume that the scene just shown was intended to convey a truth. After all, it is just a movie, and we’re not used to working that hard to discern the meaning of what’s being shown to us. When we have delve in to the level of analysing the use of color, or other symbolic items, most people (myself included) just shut down.

I’m probably just rewriting what you just said.

Comment #187: I Heart Puppies  on  02/16  at  06:53 PM

Only hacks set up a film in a way where you’re MEANT to root for or aginst the protagonist, most of the decent directors realise life isn’t like that and so present characters and situations that are interesting and whose story is relevant to the things in life without an easy answer, and then allows the viewer to make up their own mind.

It’s not so much that film is a bad medium for subtlety, but that people are too used to switching their brain off when they watch it and letting themselves be told what to think about the characters. The perfect example of a film that works on two opposing levels is Robocop. It’s a pretty rad movie when you take it at face value as an action film. But the hero is a tool and symbol of corporate fascism and in all actuality not a good cop. The fact that Verhoven presents this within a hollywood action plot framework is what also makes it such a great satire on that element of American right-wing culture.

Comment #188: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  02/16  at  08:02 PM

We’ve briefly talked this out before, is Salieri really an unreliable narrator? Or is it the case that the playwright is presenting a turd of a historical narrative that defames both characters? There certainly are cinematic and stage conventions for signaling an unreliable narrator, I don’t remember them being deployed in that movie.

I think he is.  It’s established right from the beginning that he’s basically a crazy old man—he’s being interviewed in the asylum after trying to kill himself, after all.  When he starts talking about Mozart, the dissolve they use is like a curtain being pulled back—very nostalgic and memory-centric.  At an absolute minimum, Salieri is vastly overstating Mozart’s childishness and vastly understating his artistry because of Salieri’s own jealousy.

I would argue that there are actually very few cinematic conventions for signaling an unreliable narrator.  (There are many more for the stage, but they don’t translate well.)  Look at how many people thought that Minority Report had a happy ending (me included) until you stop and realize that everything that happens after Anderton is put in suspended animation is pretty much exactly what the jailer said happens to everyone in the prison as they dream of escape and vindication?

Comment #189: Mnemosyne  on  02/16  at  09:00 PM

Look at how many people thought that Minority Report had a happy ending (me included) until you stop and realize that everything that happens after Anderton is put in suspended animation is pretty much exactly what the jailer said happens to everyone in the prison as they dream of escape and vindication?

(SPOILERS)

That has always been a good speculative take on Minority Report, except that the final ending in which the precogs live in a simple country cabin away from technology and the modern world is very much an ending that Steven Spielberg would have picked, not really one that Anderton would have imagined.

Comment #190: Tyro  on  02/16  at  11:56 PM

I hated Forrest Gump the first time I saw it. Message: If you never ask any questions and just float through life, great things happen to you. If you are remotely interesting, you die of AIDS. I tried explaining this to people at the time and got nowhere. No accounting for taste, I suppose.

Comment #191: Theron  on  02/17  at  02:11 AM

Two defenses.

I loved Eternal Sunshine on the Spotless Mind although for different reasons than Amanda does. I actually found the leads reasonably sympathetic whereas I normally don’t when it comes to Charles Kaufman films. This isn’t to say their terrific people or anything, but I could see hanging out with them and being interested in their struggles. I don’t want to get into spoilers, but I think Clementine’s actions at the end show what she’s capable of doing on her own and speak well for her character. The main appeal of that movie for me was that it was effectively good near future sci-fi that used its gimmick to explore human nature.

Re: Wes Anderson, I rather liked Fantastic Mr. Fox. Wouldn’t say it was absolutely amazing, but it was a good fit with him. Not for people that hate the guy, but for those that were a bit disappointed with some recent work.

Otherwise I agree with most of the common opinions.

Comment #192: GregSanders  on  02/17  at  01:28 PM

At an absolute minimum, Salieri is vastly overstating Mozart’s childishness and vastly understating his artistry because of Salieri’s own jealousy.

Well that’s the central problem. Salieri certainly was coloring the truth (IMO both to establish Mozart as the temperamental prodigy and a musical genius.) But there is no indication that he was fabricating the truth ala Don Quixote or Munchhausen. The whole thing only holds together if you take for granted that Salieri was jealous due to circumstances of his relationship with Mozart. And meanwhile, we are expected to take the confessor (and therefore the playwright’s) view of Salieri at face value.

Comment #193: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/17  at  01:54 PM

My basic beef with Amadeus is that it’s much worse than other biopics when it comes to cherry-picking facts in order to create the illusion of authenticity for a cartoonish parable. So it takes a few things about the life of Salieri—-a personal relationship with Mozart, dementia at age 74, and his decline in popularity after his retirement—-and without apology promotes a posthumous slander that’s intimately tied to German nationalism.

It’s a view that’s hard to reconcile with the man who revived Figaro and, in Mozart’s own words, couldn’t restrain his enthusiastic cheering of The Magic Flute. He spent the last decades of his life teaching the next generation of composers and singers.

It would be like promoting a movie that unquestioningly builds from the idea that Obama is a Nigerian national and sleeper agent.

Comment #194: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/17  at  05:02 PM

So it takes a few things about the life of Salieri—-a personal relationship with Mozart, dementia at age 74, and his decline in popularity after his retirement—-and without apology promotes a posthumous slander that’s intimately tied to German nationalism.

Ah, okay—I was misunderstanding your objection.  Most people I’ve discussed it with were upset about the portrayal of Mozart, but your problem is with the portrayal of Salieri, which is, I agree, presented as being true even if the story Salieri tells us may not be true.

That, unfortunately, is a problem with the source material, not the film, though of course having a major film with that as the premise spreads it far beyond the reach of the play.  And, yeah, it was a pretty assholish thing for the playwright to do since Mozart probably would have been forgotten if not for Salieri helping to promote him after his death.

Comment #195: Mnemosyne  on  02/17  at  06:41 PM

I don’t see Amadeus as being terribly nice to Mozart, even establishing Salieri as batshit insane. As Salieri’s narratives superficially match historical ones, the case is made that there is a kernel of truth behind his claims that Mozart was highly gifted and irresponsible.

Amadeus is just a particularly egregious example of a “biographical” dramatic work in which moralistic axe-grinding completely mangles the biography. I suspect it’s endemic to the genre.

Comment #196: CBrachyrhynchos  on  02/17  at  07:19 PM

You know what?  We’ve made it to the end of this thread’s life without any complaints about Starship Troopers.  Since I like that movie, but some people really have a full-on hate for Verhoeven…

Comment #197: shah8  on  02/17  at  10:00 PM

American Beauty is crappy, but I think Amanda’s wrong about Suvari’s character.  Indeed, that’s the one thing in the movie that deserves praise.  I don’t think we’re supposed to sneer at how pathetic she is, but rather empathize with her fear of letting her peers know that she’s wary of sex (like most kids are).  So she talks a game to hide her insecurity—and Suvari’s performance is fantastic: vamp vamp vamp through the whole movie and then, suddenly, surprisingly, fragile and, oh look, she’s just a kid.

Comment #198: Cliffy  on  02/18  at  08:45 PM
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