Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Enjoy this video. Do it. Previous entry: Some dangers of added regulations to sperm banks

Atheism and the art of persuasion

Religion

Greta Christina has a post on what I literally find the least interesting topic kicked around in atheist circles, the question of whether or not atheists should be "angry" or "friendly".  There's many variations of this argument, with some of the hardline friendly types suggesting that there's never any value to mocking religious beliefs, no matter how humorous they are, and hardline angry types minimizing some of the differences between some of the more liberal religious sorts and the fundies.  (I actually have a lot of respect for this, because it's a nice corrective to liberal Christians exaggerating the differences.) I'm linking Greta because she's got the only response to this that makes sense, which is basically "aw, fuck it, do what makes sense to you".  I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: when it comes to the promotion of any worldview or set of values, you need all sorts, barnstormers and pleasers, jokesters and earnest sorts.  Different styles make sense to different people, and the more diversity in your movement, the more ears you get. Riot Grrrls captured the imagination of would-be feminists who weren't so much into the power suits-style feminism or the hippie-feminism of the 70s, and that's a good thing.  

But I also reject the discussion because it's based on a false proposition, that there's a "right" way to persuade, some formula that will get people who aren't into your message to start listening.  This is a widespread delusion that spreads far beyond the atheist movement---it's part of the illusion of control---and I think it owes a lot to cultural paranoia about how advertisers and marketers manipulate us.  Well, they certainly intend to and they're often quite powerful at it, but it's important to realize that what any given message means is about 70% what the audience brings to it, and about 30% what the messager does, and that's if you're being unbelievably generous to the messenger.  Truly effective manipulation works with this limitation.  When manipulation works, it's about affecting an immediate behavioral choice, and it addresses already existing desires and beliefs to do so.  And even then, the most effective manipulations get say, 10-30% of people.  (Here's a good example.  Notice that it really only worked in influencing behaviors within a few hours, and it required tapping pre-existing beliefs to do so.)  There's no reason to believe that what advertisers do, which is to push pre-existing buttons to get impulsive decision-making, can be compared in a meaningful sense to what movements are doing, which is trying to change minds. 

Which isn't to say I think we should give up.  Historically, movements do have a good track record of changing minds.  But if you look at them honestly, you'll realize they did so in part by throwing all sorts of shit on the wall and seeing what sticks. It also depends on cultural context.  Movements take off in no small part because the culture around them shifts, making a larger percentage of the population open to their arguments.  Atheism shouldn't be any different in this regard.  

I think it would do the atheist movement well to remember that 95% of people who see a book titled "The God Delusion" and who pick it up are willng to be persuaded.  I definitely see that many atheists get this, since the discussions about growing the movement center around the assumption that people out there are asking questions.  But I don't see a lot of people making the important leap from there, which is realizing that because people who come to you are looking not to believe, how you present your message is just not that important.  At this point, people asking questions are just going to have a variety of tastes, and so the main thing is having a lot of variety in messaging so that different people can find the opening that makes the most sense to them.  But one thing I think is probably not worth our time too much is asking, "What does religion offer that we can replicate so that people who are deep into religion can be persuaded?"  I myself have asked this question, and now I really realize that it's bunk.  What religion offers is that it's what you've always had.  People tend to de-convert for two reasons: 1) their religions are so alienating they ran off or 2) they found themselves in a community where belief in the supernatural wasn't a prerequisite to get along with others, and so their need to believe faded away, making them open to atheist arguments.  Neither of these are within our control, though perhaps atheists would be wise to take a long view into investing more resources to grow communities where people stop feeling so much pressure to be religious.  

And completely off-topic, but I think worth considering is the distressing anti-satire critique that has formed on the left.  Anti-satire critique goes something like this: "Since some people who see a satirical send-up of their worldview will actually read it like an affirmation, satire is dangerous."  They usually cite the fact that many conservatives watch Stephen Colbert and believe him to be one of theirs for real.  This is again the illusion of control, and the false assumption that there's a message that can be crafted where the messenger has much more control over what the audience perceives.  What they fail to understand is that the counter-strategy to satire and irony, which is more earnest messaging, also misfires with a huge percentage of the audience.  A lot of people, like myself, have such an instinctual hatred of earnest pleading that the message behind it automatically becomes more suspicious because the messenger is hammering at it.  More importantly, what the audience brings to a message is exponentially more important than what the messenger brings.  The same conservatives who've convinced themselves that Colbert is one of theirs, if presented with a more earnest version of the same liberal messages, would roll their eyes and shut off the TV, making fun of how stupid and earnest liberals are.  There's really no way to construct  a message that will reach a hostile audience in the way that you hope it will.  The best you can do is keep talking and hope that people who are coming around find your particular style to be what they need to make the leap.  

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:10 AM • (102) Comments

I think atheists can actually learn something from Mormons when it comes to persuasion, not the door to door in white shirts part, but the we are happy because we are Mormon part.  Almost all my coworkers are Mormon and whenever I am sick, they don’t hesitate to let me know how healthy their lifestyle is.  Also being single they are quick to point. Out I could meet a lot of people at temple.

One of these days I should start pointing out how nice my Sundays are, sleeping in and enjoying an almost empty town, although most my Mormon friends are pretty sure we Gentiles spend most are time having drunken orgies, especially on Sundays when they are not watching.

Comment #1: Benny  on  09/07  at  09:37 AM

Dammit, there was a good series up once upon a time on messaging and persuasion that supports you on the limits of persuasion and manipulation of people. There are techniques, they do help, but they are mostly nudges unless you end up with brainwashing level of control of somebody. (And even then they aren’t perfect.)

I’ll see if I can find it (will depend on work piling up today or not), since it is interesting reading. But long story short, it supports the “no one true messaging” idea.

Comment #2: LC  on  09/07  at  09:44 AM

the we are happy because we are Mormon part.

That would be the least effective tactic to use on me. I’m sure leeches are happy being leeches, but I’m not going to start sucking blood.

Comment #3: junk science  on  09/07  at  10:07 AM

The often-cited analogy to the gay rights movement works well for the pluralism Amanda is advocating here. The combination of sheer visibility with a wide spectrum of individual approaches, all the way from buttoned-down to outrageous, turned out to be quite effective in producing progress. It will do the same for atheists.

Comment #4: Steve LaBonne  on  09/07  at  10:16 AM

And yet, do you feel converted, Benny?  Are you Mormon yet?  No real proof that Mormonism is about how good the pitch is in your comment.  You completely and utterly missed the point of my post.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/07  at  10:18 AM

Greta Christina is just the bomb. And thanks for this very interesting response to her post.

Comment #6: atheist  on  09/07  at  10:20 AM

Benny, it isn’t just Sundays.  They have stake meetings as well as Sunday worship, and each diffent demographic is expected to take part in specific activities geered to them: the young married women doing homey crafts and food related stuff, families with kids doing a family related week night meeting for socializing, singles doing something designed to get them into couples (examples from when I was in ID).  They don’t just take over Sundays, they keep people busy enough that it’s a pain to schedule anything else around it.

Comment #7: helen w. h.  on  09/07  at  10:21 AM

“Has anyone ever really been ‘convinced’ of anything?”

That was a line from a 20th Century philosopher - can’t remember the name…Ciorcan, Cicoran?

Since religion is largely a shameless and relentless project of inculcating a dogma into the unquestioning minds of children - one that would purport to explain literally everything on earth and Heaven, it’s actually surprising that many people can so easily cast off the coat of belief.

It would seem using ‘convincing’ wouldn’t do the trick, simply because the church beat us to it. Exposure, not to atheist dogma, but other religions and ideologies and thinkers. Knowledge itself is the enemy of the dogma - not a counter dogma.

Atheist ‘doctrine’ poses no threat to Christianity. It is the cosmopolitanism of the searching mind that gradually erodes superstitious beliefs. In this way you simply pull at the loose thread and the coat of belief unravels quickly and easily.

Comment #8: KingElvis  on  09/07  at  10:24 AM

t’s important to realize that what any given message means is about 70% what the audience brings to it, and about 30% what the messager does, and that’s if you’re being unbelievably generous to the messenger.

That one knocked it out of the park. Nice work: you’re on a roll with this whole illusion of control thing.

I would suggest that people de-convert for a third reason: they find themselves in a community of people for whom religious belief is not only not required, but actively thought of as weird, old-fashioned or kind of stupid.

Comment #9: felagund  on  09/07  at  10:27 AM

But I also reject the discussion because it’s based on a false proposition, that there’s a “right” way to persuade, some formula that will get people who aren’t into your message to start listening.

Yea. There is no magic bullet in politics. There’s just an eternal Sisyphusean loop of planning, doing, & assessing.

Comment #10: atheist  on  09/07  at  10:34 AM

I’m glad that there are both “friendly” and “angry” atheists, just as I’m glad that there are “friendly” and “angry” feminists.  For the most part, I think it just comes down to the type of person.  Some people will be friendly and some will be angry no matter what they believe.  And I also think that different people are convinced in different ways.  Some people will be more willing to listen to a friendly atheist, and some will be more likely to listen to the loud one.  We also need angry atheists just to push for basic rights.

I honestly don’t care about converting people away from religion.  It’s not on the top of my priority list.  I’ve seen enough atheist assholes to realize that religion is really a symptom of misogyny, hate, and even authoritarianism rather than the cause of all these things.  I’d hang out with a loving, tolerant religious person over some evo-psycho libertarian any day.

For example, my mom is religious and active in her liberal mainstream church, and I have no desire to convince her to stop.  She’s more of a good influence on the church than the church is a bad influence on her.  Since it’s a lot easier to get the extremists to tone down and still believe than to become non-believers, the overall result would be better if we tried for that.  It’s like how convincing 100 people to cut meat consumption in half has the same effect as convincing 50 people to become complete vegetarians, but the former is infinitely easier to actually accomplish.

So I guess I’m tolerant of mainstream religious people in the same way that every vegetarian I know is tolerant of people who eat meat but aren’t pushy about it.

Comment #11: bananacat  on  09/07  at  10:36 AM

I think atheists can actually learn something from Mormons when it comes to persuasion, not the door to door in white shirts part, but the we are happy because we are Mormon part.

I was never Mormon but some of my high school friends peer-pressured me into “dabbling” with Evangelical Christianity (which was very different than the mainstream Christianity I was raised in).  And I can tell you that there was a tremendous amount of pressure to always be happy, even if you had to lie about it.  We were told that if we’re always cheerful, people will want to know how we can have such a perfectly happy life and that’s a great segue into telling them about Jesus.  Whenever anything bad happened, we weren’t allowed to be visibly sad for two reasons.  First, if we were sad then we might scare people away from the religion, and then they might never get “saved” and they could burn in Hell for all eternity and it would be all your fault for pushing them away.  Second, it’s selfish to be sad about anything.  You’re not allowed to miss your Grandma who died because she’s in Heaven now and it’s selfish to want her back on Earth just for your own benefit.  All other bad things were part of God’s plan and we had to see the good in it (such as an earthquake maybe scaring people enough to be converted to Evangelicalism).

I don’t know a whole lot about Mormons, but I suspect there’s something very similar going on.  In the FLDS cults (which are quite different than mainstream LDS), women are told to “keep sweet” no matter what.  In the mainstream, I’m pretty sure that they are still pressured to put on a happy face no matter what happens.

Comment #12: bananacat  on  09/07  at  10:42 AM

I’ve long been of the opinion that 99% of the time, when I get into a “discussion” w/ a kool-aid drinker of any sort, I’m not going to convince or convert that person (I can’t counteract years of indoctrination and propaganda w/ a 15 min conversation or a few facebook posts). I’m arguing for the audience, the lurkers who may be interested but aren’t that invested, to whom what the loon is saying sounds kind of right b/c maybe they heard the same thing on TV or read it in the NYT, but mostly only think that b/c they never hear anyone making the rational case in response. And as you say, I’ll take different tactics depending on the situation (and often my mood) - I can site facts and data, or I can point out that the kool-aid drinker’s argument is ridiculous/sociopathic and mock him incessantly.

Comment #13: Geocrackr  on  09/07  at  10:48 AM

And yet, do you feel converted, Benny?  Are you Mormon yet?  No real proof that Mormonism is about how good the pitch is in your comment. 

And yet that’s sort of not the point of what Mormons are doing and the analogy is to what atheists might want to do. What the Mormons are doing is “normalizing” themselves in the eyes of the public. The idea is that, “Mormons are just another religion made up of surprisingly nice people.” If the next leap of the observer is, “I’m intrigued and wouldn’t mind being more like them,” all the better, but the “long game” for the Mormons has always been to portray themselves as extraordinarily good people in order to counter their image among evagelicals as a “dangerous cult.”

Comment #14: Tyro  on  09/07  at  10:49 AM

The discussions seems to me to come from a completely wrong place when one speaks of “persuasion”.  Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.  Do you persuade the mentally ill to not be mentally ill?  I have a niece who has bipolar disorder.  I can’t talk her out of being bipolar.

Trying to talk crazy people out of being crazy is crazy.

Comment #15: DBK  on  09/07  at  10:51 AM

Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.  Do you persuade the mentally ill to not be mentally ill?

I used to be a believer, and now I’m not, because I read Richard Dawkins. How can this be? Am I now deluded into thinking I’m no longer deluded?

Comment #16: junk science  on  09/07  at  10:54 AM

I guess you were.  I was never a big believer in talk therapy, but it does work sometimes, so I guess I have to say that sometimes talk therapy can work.

Comment #17: DBK  on  09/07  at  10:56 AM

@#4: Steve LaBonne

I agree, and I think this is also really helpful to people who are on the fence or have grown up with misconceptions around atheism.  My boyfriend was an atheist already, but he specifically told me that before he met my family, he didn’t know any non-religious adults (we’re adults, obviously, but people who could be parents or mentors) who were demonstrably good, stable people.

Actually, religion is such a non-issue in my family I don’t know if any of them are atheists or not.  I probably am, but I just don’t see that it’s relevant when I think about right and wrong, so probably not relevant at all.  My only reaction to religion in people my own age is to try to be polite about an odd affectation I assume they’ll grow out of.  Like enjoying Phish or something.

I don’t really advertise being atheist mostly because, like I said, I don’t care.  But if I knew someone with offensive stereotypes about atheists, or someone who worried about their own character for doubting, I’d bring it up then.  As far as I know I’m an OK person who does good work and is even allowed around children (without taking so much as a nibble!), and I could see someone being comforted/educated by that.

Comment #18: themmases  on  09/07  at  10:59 AM

To be fair, I don’t want to give Dawkins all the credit, because if I didn’t want to be persuaded, I wouldn’t have been. True belief grows more impenetrable as the arguments against it grow stronger. A good part of my belief had already eroded away by that time.

Comment #19: junk science  on  09/07  at  11:05 AM

Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.

No, it most cases it is not a mental illness.  Don’t water down the meaning of mental illness by throwing all kinds of things in with it.  Mental illness isn’t just some trivial quirk, and it’s not just something that you disagree with or think is irrational.  And people with mental illness don’t just go about constantly believing ridiculous things.

Religious belief is actually pretty consistent with healthy mental status.  People aren’t inherently rational.  It takes a lot of effort to be even somewhat rational, and if you think that you are rational all the time then you are deluding yourself as much as everyone else.  So unless you want “mental illness” to become so meaningless and expansive that it includes all people, you can’t claim that religion is a mental illness.  As a person with an actual mental illness, I resent people tossing whatever they feel like into that category as some kind of intended insult.

Comment #20: bananacat  on  09/07  at  11:09 AM

Movements take off in no small part because the culture around them shifts, making a larger percentage of the population open to their arguments.  Atheism shouldn’t be any different in this regard.

And this is why, to continue the analogy Steve LaBonne brought up, we have to live out of the closet.  Part of the culture shift has to include a widespread recognition that atheists walk among us, that our worldview is compatible with an otherwise familiar lifestyle.

Comment #21: Cris (without an H)  on  09/07  at  11:11 AM

Exposure, not to atheist dogma, but other religions and ideologies and thinkers. Knowledge itself is the enemy of the dogma - not a counter dogma.

I agree. It reminds me of a humanities course I took back in high school. Part of the course was comparative religion, and so we learned about the basic tenets, beliefs, practice, and history of a bunch of different religions all over the world. It was cool. For some reason, I’ve never forgotten overhearing one of my classmates (a Christian, natch) complaining that the teacher was trying to “convert” us.

That makes no logical sense (convert us to Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Daoism, Animism, et al. at the same time?), but what struck me was how much of a threat she perceived simple knowledge of other religions to be to her own belief. I guess she didn’t want to risk realizing that all of these “false beliefs” make about as much sense as Christianity.

Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.  Do you persuade the mentally ill to not be mentally ill? I have a niece who has bipolar disorder.  I can’t talk her out of being bipolar.

People stop believing in god(s) all the time. If you could persuade your niece not to be bipolar, wouldn’t you do it? Obviously you can’t, but belief in god is a choice. Pretending it’s not, besides being unhelpful to say the least, is empirically false.

I mean, I don’t run around trying to deconvert religious people, but that’s because it’s none of my damn business. Not because I don’t think they’re capable of not believing in god.

Comment #22: Triplanetary  on  09/07  at  11:11 AM

I guess you were.  I was never a big believer in talk therapy, but it does work sometimes, so I guess I have to say that sometimes talk therapy can work.

What makes you think that you are an expert on psychology?  First of all, talk therapy isn’t just two people sitting around discussing their fee-fees.  If you don’t even know what it is, then you shouldn’t judge its validity.

Second, reading a persuasive book is not talk therapy.  That’s a pretty ridiculous idea that I have never even heard from other mental illness minimizers.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  09/07  at  11:12 AM

I guess you were.  I was never a big believer in talk therapy, but it does work sometimes, so I guess I have to say that sometimes talk therapy can work.

Or maybe your whole “mental illness” analogy is just worthless.

Comment #24: Triplanetary  on  09/07  at  11:12 AM

Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.

That’s just an incredibly stupid thing to believe. Lots of what religion does is grab onto the hooks provided by a normal human brain - theory of mind, pattern recognition, and so on. Belief in a god is a delusion, but it is not a delusion that requires a sick brain. But keep telling yourself how special you are.

The “debate” about how best to persuade is an incredibly tiresome one, in large part because it seems mostly to consist of smug “friendly” atheists yelling at the direct-approach people that their approach will turn people off of atheism. I think you nailed this one, Amanda - any approach is only going to work on people who are receptive to being convinced anyway. And let’s not forget that it’s not just that one approach might work on some people, and another on others - there are definitely potential atheists out there for whom both approaches will be a necessary component of tipping them over into acknowledged unbelief. I know, because I’m one of them.

I had pretty serious doubts, and the direct approach really stuck in my craw - in a good way. And it took a long time to go all the way to open, outright disbelief. Hearing people say that religion was stupid and illogical was embarrassing, but it was effective because my knowing, and trying to ignore that faith was stupid and illogical was at the root of my own doubt. And sticking to my guns like that WAS embarrassing, and it needed to be embarrassing! At the same time, the friendly approach - not from the internet, but from a philosophy professor who was openly anti-religion, but in a non-aggressive way - made me feel safe in admitting that I thought it was bullshit, and made me realize that there was a community of people who felt the same way and would support me.

Comment #25: grolby  on  09/07  at  11:15 AM

Yeah, I’ll be wanting a second opinion.

Comment #26: junk science  on  09/07  at  11:15 AM

Thanks so much to DBK for derailing the discussion. Most helpful.

Comment #27: Steve LaBonne  on  09/07  at  11:21 AM

There is a good example in the advertising world of the point Amanda makes about using all kinds of approaches. Geico Insurance usually has three different campaigns on at any given time. The gekko ones, the Mike McGlone “does a drill instructor make a lousy therapist?” ones, the caveman ones, and so on. They know basically all demographics and personality types need car insurance, and that not everybody responds to the same sell, and since they are trying to gain customers rather than cement some image of a ‘brand’, they’re willing to make different kinds of ads to broaden their appeal.

Comment #28: benvolio  on  09/07  at  11:25 AM

Or, hell, assume religious belief might be a form of mental illness. At one point I was mentally ill, and a part of what cured me was that people I trusted kept patiently explaining that my delusions weren’t real. Eventually I decided they were right. So the mental illness analogy, while not “freindly”, could also serve as another way of describing the process of persuasion.

Comment #29: atheist  on  09/07  at  11:28 AM

I agree, and I think this is also really helpful to people who are on the fence or have grown up with misconceptions around atheism.

Such as my girlfriend (a liberal Episcopalian), who before meeting me wasn’t sure she would date an atheist. We met on OKC and I had made a point of choosing the “atheism and fairly serious about it” option on my profile. To her great credit (and my great good fortune!) she did not make that a dealbreaker even though she had originally answered no to the profile question about dating an atheist.

Visibility is the key. Beyond that, individual approaches can and should vary widely.

Comment #30: Steve LaBonne  on  09/07  at  11:28 AM

I figured all of Geico’s campaigns were targeting the disaffected, self-consciously ironic recent college graduate. Some of them probably prefer cavemen over geckos, but they all seem to be in the same spirit.

Comment #31: junk science  on  09/07  at  11:29 AM

I’d call myself a “friendly atheist” or a filthy accommodationist to put it another way. I’m not remotely interested in trying to convince people that atheism is right, as I am in convincing people that atheism is no barrier to being moral, “spiritual” as loosely defined, or a part of a larger community. My own atheism was a product of a decade of growth, so I’m not expecting to convince people overnight.

But that’s just what I need to do for my own relationships with other people. I’m not convinced that accomodationism really is more persuasive. Those who are open-minded enough to see atheists as peers already do so. Those that don’t, won’t. And the latter group includes an astonishing number of “religious liberals” who try to establish their claims to enlightenment by stereotyping the heck out of both atheists and theological conservatives.

Comment #32: CBrachyrhynchos  on  09/07  at  11:39 AM

Hey Amanda

Sorry if I missed the point of your post, what I was trying to say is that atheists might be well served to point out the positive side of non-belief, it’s great not to feel guilty about every pleasure, and it’s great not think there is some wise man looking over your shoulder at all times.  Or just the idea at when an atheists does something nice it’s really for the intrinsic value, not because you are expecting your own planet in the afterlife.

While it’s fun and easy to mock supernatural beliefs, it doesn’t hurt to show there is also an alternative to them.

Comment #33: Benny  on  09/07  at  11:39 AM

You’re welcome Steve.  Let me know if you need anything else.

Comment #34: DBK  on  09/07  at  11:46 AM

I’d call myself a “friendly atheist” or a filthy accommodationist to put it another way.

I’m sort of midway between that and Dawkins / Myers “Gnu Atheism”, but I would never describe you as “filthy”. wink I have no quarrel with accomodationists as such, only with the Chris Mooney / James Wood types who set up shop as substance-free, drearily repetitive tone trolls. They’re really fucking annoying.

Comment #35: Steve LaBonne  on  09/07  at  11:49 AM

Oh, and by the way, the less snotty commenters have me thinking I need to rethink that analogy.  I’ve been using it for years and I am kind of attached to it.  I especially appreciate the argument that religion latches onto things that are in a healthy brain, though I also think that religion depends deeply on a failure to observe the world as it really is and, instead, one substitutes what one wants the world to be.  That’s the basis for my assertion, actually.  One wants the world to be just, so an overseer, who punishes the wicked and rewards the good, is invented.  One wants there to be life after death (everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die), so one invents a magical place where everything is really great.  In the end, it is the idea that religion requires one to see the world as it isn’t that gave me my analogy originally.

Comment #36: DBK  on  09/07  at  11:52 AM

I wonder if people’s identification of “friendly” or “angry” is dependent on the process of their conversion.  I guess I would fall into the friendly category, and I never had a specific moment of deconversion or some kind of epiphany or turning point.  I also didn’t have a very strict religious upbringing, although I did go to church every Sunday which is apparently more than most mainstream Christians.

But it seems like a lot of “angry” atheists had a more sudden change to atheism, or had a bigger change because their upbringing was a lot more religious, such as attending religious school as a child.

If this is actually the case, then I think the two types of atheists are very necessary, to identify with two different types of religious people.  If I meet someone who grew up like me and mention how over time the whole thing just seemed less and likely, they’ll be more willing to listen.  If someone else grew up in a strict religious household and started having serious doubts when a tragic event happened and their religious peers handled in a traumatic way, then they can be more persuasive to other who are in a strict religious setting, especially those that are already having doubts but don’t think they can leave.

Comment #37: bananacat  on  09/07  at  11:58 AM

Yeah, I’m not going to shoulder the burden of “don’t be a dick” when atheists are subjected to a no-win double standard in that area. The mere existence of atheists is offensive to some. While I’m not going to wack the hornet’s nest with a stick(*), I’m not going to take responsibility for the prejudices of others.

(*) Largely because I find atheism to be justified but not philosophically compelling when put up against post-modern theology.

Comment #38: CBrachyrhynchos  on  09/07  at  11:59 AM

Oh, and by the way, the less snotty commenters have me thinking I need to rethink that analogy

You’re really going to tone-troll me?  I hope you realize that what you are saying comes across as “I won’t listen unless you say it nicely.”

It’s actually pretty relevant to this discussion though, because you are so much like the people that you want to convince.  I guess you have proven a point that tone matters more than reasoning and facts for a lot of people, including yourself.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  09/07  at  12:02 PM

I thought we were all equally snotty, anyway.

Comment #40: junk science  on  09/07  at  12:06 PM

I can only do my best; some of the commenters here are born naturals.

Comment #41: atheist  on  09/07  at  12:08 PM

I’d describe myself as vaguely religious—I have this sense that there’s stuff going on in the universe and in the human soul that is and always will be beyond our understanding, but precisely because of this sense, I am skeptical and distrustful of any dogmas and -isms that try to crush the universe et al. into some kind of system—and I find the idea of atheists trying to “persuade” me just as off-putting as when Christian evangelicals try to convert me.

In fact, when I read what atheists write on-line (PZ Meyers and his fans, Skepchick, etc.), it reminds me a lot of what I hear from the more outspoken advocates of Christianity (being in the USA, I’m not confronted as much by evangelical Muslims or Jews.)  The same certainty that they’re right, the same (or more) contempt for those they see as their enemies, the same endless repetitions of arguments that they find convincing.  And my reaction is the same: G/god save me from becoming like that!

If you—atheist, Christian, whatever—want to “persuade” me, don’t waste your time with slick marketing.  Instead, try to be a good and decent human being 24/7 (or at least 23/6) and show me that your religious beliefs (or un-beliefs) are at least compatible with being the kind of person I’d like to become.

Comment #42: AMM  on  09/07  at  12:23 PM

“I would suggest that people de-convert for a third reason: they find themselves in a community of people for whom religious belief is not only not required, but actively thought of as weird, old-fashioned or kind of stupid.”

...which bothers me in the same way as when I hear that people convert because they’re in a community of people for whom religious belief is required and non-belief is thought of as weird, threatening, and is not tolerated.

I realize it’s impossible to change human nature that way, and this is probably naive on my part, but ideally people should be able to buy whatever they want from the marketplace of ideas, without pressure from they community they live in.  Just because Turdlick, TN is solidly Southern Baptist, that doesn’t mean you must be one too, whether you want to convert or not.  Likewise, Liberalelite, CA might be solidly atheist, but that shouldn’t cause people who would otherwise be believers to be coerced into dropping their beliefs.

Forcing people to do certain things/behave certain ways is a recipe for rebellion against those things (at least among many people), regardless of their merit or lack thereof.  As most of us atheists were raised in religious families, we’re already prior victims of coercion (of a sort).  We should recognize and respect the difference between coercion and persuasion…

Comment #43: MikeEss  on  09/07  at  12:24 PM

Good religious people are why religions have been successful at persuading is all, it doesn’t mean that a religion is not the cause of bad stuff because one can point to good individuals in it, I think the bad provoked by the delusion is greater than the good promoted when you consider that people who want to do good will likely come to that naturally.  You don’t need an excuse to do a non-horrible thing.

Comment #44: ewellone  on  09/07  at  12:26 PM

I also think that religion depends deeply on a failure to observe the world as it really is and, instead, one substitutes what one wants the world to be.  That’s the basis for my assertion, actually.  One wants the world to be just, so an overseer, who punishes the wicked and rewards the good, is invented.  One wants there to be life after death (everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die), so one invents a magical place where everything is really great.  In the end, it is the idea that religion requires one to see the world as it isn’t that gave me my analogy originally.
Comment #36: DBK on 09/07 at 11:52 AM

But we don’t really see the world as it is. 

Our brains interfere with spurious pattern-seeking and other distortions of reality. 

Our division of the world and actions into good and bad propel us into looking for ways that good is rewarded and bad is punished. 

Our experience of powerful smart food and comfort-giving parents when we do not yet have reason, or knowledge of their imperfections, provides the perfect substrate on which to grow the omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent God. 

It’s unavoidable.  We can only accept that it happens and fight against it.

Comment #45: oldfeminist  on  09/07  at  12:28 PM

“And I can tell you that there was a tremendous amount of pressure to always be happy, even if you had to lie about it.  We were told that if we’re always cheerful, people will want to know how we can have such a perfectly happy life and that’s a great segue into telling them about Jesus.  Whenever anything bad happened, we weren’t allowed to be visibly sad for two reasons.  First, if we were sad then we might scare people away from the religion, and then they might never get “saved” and they could burn in Hell for all eternity and it would be all your fault for pushing them away.  Second, it’s selfish to be sad about anything.  You’re not allowed to miss your Grandma who died because she’s in Heaven now and it’s selfish to want her back on Earth just for your own benefit.  All other bad things were part of God’s plan and we had to see the good in it (such as an earthquake maybe scaring people enough to be converted to Evangelicalism).”

It’s this kind of stuff that was a major reason for me to abandon religious belief.  And it’s a strong reason why I am strongly opposed to “belief” of any kind.  Beliefs of any kind, sooner or later, require one to ignore certain realities and exaggerate certain states of mind in order to be socially acceptable among your peers.  I find this very difficult.

If I’m pissed off, I’m pissed, and I’m not going to pretend that moose turd pie is delicious.  If I’m depressed, I’m depressed, and no amount of “Put on a happy face!” bullshit is going to change that.

I don’t want to be a True Believer of any sort.  I’m not a fundamentalist Christian, I’m not a virulent atheist.  I’m not wedded to the Democratic Party, do or die, I’m not a mindless O-bot, I’m not a believer in “America, Love It or Leave It”.  I don’t think anyone has the One True Way for anything.

But maybe that’s just me…

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  09/07  at  12:39 PM

The same certainty that they’re right, the same (or more) contempt for those they see as their enemies, the same endless repetitions of arguments that they find convincing.

Truly, none of us can achieve the serene superiority of ambivalence that you’ve perfected. You always know someone is really right when they make a big show out of not thinking they’re right.

Don’t worry, we know we’re not worthy of you.

Comment #47: junk science  on  09/07  at  12:50 PM

I would suggest that people de-convert for a third reason: they find themselves in a community of people for whom religious belief is not only not required, but actively thought of as weird, old-fashioned or kind of stupid.

But given that few of us are ever going to be tenure track faculty in a humanities department, odds are we will never encounter a social circle like that.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  09/07  at  12:59 PM

The same certainty that they’re right, the same (or more) contempt for those they see as their enemies, the same endless repetitions of arguments that they find convincing.  And my reaction is the same: G/god save me from becoming like that!

You seem to have a lot of certainty regarding the superiority of your ambivalence.  I hope I never become that cynical, believing that it’s awful to hold any opinion, other than the awfulness of holding opinions.

 

Comment #49: Punditus Maximus  on  09/07  at  01:00 PM

@Tyro: any major city is pretty much like that.  Once religion stops being your social circle, belief has an entirely different meaning.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  09/07  at  01:01 PM

@Tyro: any major city is pretty much like that.  Once religion stops being your social circle, belief has an entirely different meaning.

Comment #51: Punditus Maximus  on  09/07  at  01:01 PM

Good religious people are why religions have been successful at persuading is all, it doesn’t mean that a religion is not the cause of bad stuff because one can point to good individuals in it,

One thing I’ve noticed from my own experiences, is that it is possible to like the individuals in a group, but dislike the group as a whole.

What I think is worth remembering, along the lines of the 100 vegetarians vs. 50 vegans example above, is that religious beliefs can be very deeply rooted in a person’s psyche. They either can’t, or won’t, let go of it, and it’s pointless to try.  What you can do is what Amanda usually advocates, which is to focus on reality rather than ideas. I don’t think the question of belief vs. non-belief is really so important next to the question of what people do with those beliefs. That’s where they start to affect other people, and that’s where problems start. Incremental change works well—look at what the anti-choice movement has been up to.

Comment #52: Jayn Newell  on  09/07  at  01:01 PM

In general, persuasion is the act of consistently presenting an alternative, so that when people’s current system doesn’t work, they can look around and find you.

You’re never persuading the person you’re talking to, if they already have an opinion.  If they have enough of an opinion to engage, they have an entire system of belief that they’re not going to shred just because of an internet conversation.  What you can do is make their ridiculousness or falsity apparent, so that others aren’t seduced by the bad arguments, and set the stage so that when they’re sobbing in the rain, kneeling in a field seven miles outside the city limits, screaming for their fathers to love them, you’ve made it clear that there’s somewhere for them to go now that they are willing to stop lying to themselves.

Comment #53: Punditus Maximus  on  09/07  at  01:06 PM

Trying to persuade people to be less religious contradicts what to me is one of the prime perks of atheism, namely the joy and freedom not having to give a fuck what other people do in the privacy of their own brains. Atheist or biblical literalist, what I care about is what you do in this world, which is why I’ll answer to atheist but the label I’m serious about is secularist.

Comment #54: heresiarch  on  09/07  at  01:13 PM

@Tyro: any major city is pretty much like that.  Once religion stops being your social circle, belief has an entirely different meaning.

I’ve lived in major cities all of my adult life. While my social circle has been pretty secular, I’d never describe it as one that regarded someone else’s religious belief as “weird, old fashioned or kind of stupid.” academics in the humanities are the only ones (in meatspace) I’ve known to be vocal about that attitude, though, which is felagund’s crowd, which is why I mentioned his circle as a special case.

Comment #55: Tyro  on  09/07  at  01:15 PM

I think people are most likely to get angry when you are challenging a belief that they feel is a “prerequisite” for a number of other beliefs that they hold.  For example, someone might believe it is important to follow a moral code, and that person might get angry if you say there is no god, because he mistakenly thinks that belief in god is a “prerequisite” to living by a moral code.  So for his “need” to believe in god to fade away, he first has to come to the conclusion that belief in god is not a prerequisite to living by a moral code.  And he’s not very likely to change his mind in 20 minutes through the process of deductive reasoning.  More likely, his feelings will change gradually, several weeks after you’ve talked to him, while he’s sitting on his porch, sipping on a margarita and watching the sunset. 
And of course this goes beyond the question of atheism.  For example, if I am talking with someone who believes strongly in feminism, and I say that X is false, she might get angry if she thinks that belief in X is a prerequisite for her other feminist beliefs.  And again, she might eventually come to the conclusion that she doesn’t have to believe in X to be a feminist, but she isn’t likely to change her mind in 20 minutes through the process of deductive reasoning.  Nobody changes their mind that quickly. 
So the bottom line is, everybody has false beliefs and some have more than others.  But we all need quiet time to watch the sunset and drink a margarita, or at least some kind of quiet contemplative space, because that’s really the only way people change their minds about things.

Comment #56: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  09/07  at  01:25 PM

KingElvis @8:

Since religion is largely a shameless and relentless project of inculcating a dogma into the unquestioning minds of children - one that would purport to explain literally everything on earth and Heaven, it’s actually surprising that many people can so easily cast off the coat of belief.

Unquestioning minds of children?  I don’t think so.  Children have to be the most curious group of people.
As for people easily casting off the coat of belief, it’s funny, isn’t it, how easily we’re expected to cast off belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.  So why would it be surprising that, having had so much practice letting go of belief in magical things, it wouldn’t be just as easy to let go of belief in a god?

Comment #57: rain  on  09/07  at  01:30 PM

If you—atheist, Christian, whatever—want to “persuade” me, don’t waste your time with slick marketing.  Instead, try to be a good and decent human being 24/7 (or at least 23/6) and show me that your religious beliefs (or un-beliefs) are at least compatible with being the kind of person I’d like to become.

Well, let’s test Amanda’s point. Did you become vaguely religious because some vaguely religious people were good and decent human beings 23/6 (or more!) and showed you that their vague beliefs or vague unbeliefs are at least compatible with being the kind of person you’d like to become?

Or did you come to your present beliefs for fairly idiosyncratic reasons of your own and you’re really quite unlikely to convert no matter how many elderly puppies the atheists, Zorastrians or Jews help cross the street?

Comment #58: witless chum  on  09/07  at  01:42 PM

Unquestioning minds of children?  I don’t think so.  Children have to be the most curious group of people.

Children are always hungry for new knowledge, yes, but they’re not as capable of thinking critically about it. Generally they accept as fact what they hear from an authority figure, and if they detect a contradiction, rather than trying to reason it out themselves, they’ll again just ask an authority figure.

But in terms of being hungry for new information, a child is less able than an adult to distinguish between “the earth is round” and “there’s an all-powerful entity out there and the Bible accurately describes it.”

Comment #59: Triplanetary  on  09/07  at  01:42 PM

So why would it be surprising that, having had so much practice letting go of belief in magical things, it wouldn’t be just as easy to let go of belief in a god?

Because they aren’t the bedrock of other beliefs. No longer believing in Santa Claus does not affect how we view the rest of the world—no longer believing in Jesus does. Perhaps more importantly, it means trying to filter the world for yourself, rather than having answers (however incongruous) handed to you. The world is messy—belief in a higher power provides comfort in giving you a false image of a world that is orderly. It’s another variation of the illusion of control, and not everybody is able to let go of that.

Comment #60: Jayn Newell  on  09/07  at  01:45 PM

@ 11, bananacat: I honestly don’t care about converting people away from religion.  It’s not on the top of my priority list.  I’ve seen enough atheist assholes to realize that religion is really a symptom of misogyny, hate, and even authoritarianism rather than the cause of all these things.  I’d hang out with a loving, tolerant religious person over some evo-psycho libertarian any day.

I agree with this. I’m also an atheist, but I don’t see myself as part of a movement, and I don’t care what people believe if they are allies in the fight against intolerance and authoritarianism and social injustice and etc.

And though AMM perhaps choose poor examples and sounded too smug, I also find annoying those atheists who are more concerned with (as Amanda said yesterday in another context) “proving the purity of their ideology.”  (DBK’s comment @15 strikes me as a case in point: it says little beyond “look how little I respect spirituality!”)

@44, ewellone:  it doesn’t mean that a religion is not the cause of bad stuff because one can point to good individuals in it, I think the bad provoked by the delusion is greater than the good

This might be a valid reason for attacking spirituality in general, but I’m not certain it is true. Whether religion causes more harm than good might be an empirical question but no one has developed a methodology to test it in any convincing way.  Those who believe it may be right, but they are also going with their “gut” feeling.

@44 (cont.):  when you consider that people who want to do good will likely come to that naturally. You don’t need an excuse to do a non-horrible thing.

This strikes me as completely unconvincing. People are naturally altruistic?

Comment #61: argus  on  09/07  at  02:15 PM

People make converts not by talking about themselves but by talking to the convert about their experience. If you’re going to influence the thinking of others, you have to acknowledge their life, their reasoning, etc. No one converts to Mormonism because they envy the life of Mormons. It’s because the Mormon missionaries ask people about their life, find places where they are dissatisfied or feel there is a contradiction, and then suggest that those problems can be resolved by joining the CLDS. It’s a fundamental aspect of human psychology, we are all deeply selfish creatures and we have to know What’s In It For Us.

When I’ve talked to people who have anti-choice feelings, I basically begin to describe very specific scenarios in their life as in, making it about them and the risks that anti-abortion policies can have on them, personally. I don’t sit there and declare that the government can’t tell me what to do with my uterus because they don’t give a shit about my slutty uterus, but they might care about their own uterus (or the uterus of their wife/partner), and understanding that the law (especially these days) is not going to differentiate between my slutty-3-abortions-a-year uterus and their married-with-two-kids-but-this-one-could-kill-you uterus, or their 15-year-old-daughter-who-made-a-mistake-and-got-drunk-at-a-party-and-was-raped-in-a-way-that-will-never-be-convicted-on-and-now-she’s-knocked-up-but-really-should-go-to-college uterus. And then carefully examining how we trust the reasons people have for undergoing a procedure that is costly, invasive, and painful.

Comment #62: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/07  at  02:16 PM

@57 Rain,

Yes children are curious but it almost seems like dirty pool to brainwash such easy targets.


But that leads to a larger point that I think everyone is missing. Belief is not a ‘choice’ - that is a kind of modern American consumerist approach.

I’ve been re-reading Nietzsche lately, and he really reminds you (in “The Anti Christ”) that religion should be thought of as a kind of industry that benefits priests.

We see this in the Catholic Church and even more in the charismatic ‘born again’ churches, which purport to save adults as well. There’s $$$ in it for the clerics, and they are the ones that carry the torch of ‘faith’ not really the ‘consumers’ or laity.

Comment #63: KingElvis  on  09/07  at  02:30 PM

On the flip side:  My intro to philosophy class in college was taught by an amazing professor, and his pedagogical method was to read and dissect the major arguments for and against the existence of god the entire semester.  At the end, we basically discussed the point that not one of those arguments would persuade anyone who was not already disposed to believe as a result of their experience and personality.  The arguments are the hooks for what already resonates in us—it is possible to believe in God knowing that there is no way to definitively prove God’s existence.  (Which is where I stand—I believe in God, because of my personal experiences and because it’s the best way to explain the mysterious and numinous in the world as I have experienced those things.  I also think that I am a better person because of this belief, which has not only never interfered with my feminism or my commitment to social justice, nor with my ability to accept science and reason, but has actually strengthened these beliefs and commitments—but I don’t try to convert anyone.) 

I guess my feeling is that arguments follow belief, not the other way around.  And the argument might provide a hook for someone who already believes that there is or is not a god, or an articulation of what they believe, but it’s not likely to persuade someone unless they are already 99 percent there.  We aren’t nearly as rational as we think we are. 

Slightly unrelated—religion is not a mental illness unless the term “mental illness” is pretty much meaningless.  Religious faith and mental health are not per se inconsistent, although certainly mental illness may manifest itself in religious terms.  A believer may be wrong about the existence of God, but he or she is not delusional in the ordinary sense of the word.

Comment #64: Kit-Kat  on  09/07  at  02:46 PM

But one thing I think is probably not worth our time too much is asking, “What does religion offer that we can replicate so that people who are deep into religion can be persuaded?”  I myself have asked this question, and now I really realize that it’s bunk.  What religion offers is that it’s what you’ve always had.  People tend to de-convert for two reasons: 1) their religions are so alienating they ran off or 2) they found themselves in a community where belief in the supernatural wasn’t a prerequisite to get along with others, and so their need to believe faded away, making them open to atheist arguments.

It’s true that people deep into religion aren’t going to care about alternatives, but there are plenty of people with only vague beliefs who nevertheless stay associated with religion because of what we might call the fringe benefits; the replication question is crucial and I think it’s a large part of what keeps religion limping on here in the UK.  I have a large number of friends with no particularly religious inclinations who still feel that they are missing out on something and so turn back to religion, particularly for weddings and when they talk about how they will raise their children.

Overwhelmingly, there is little peer pressure involved and it’s not something that’s been a major part in their life.  But they are drawn by the sense of community and belonging.  That’s why one of the most important things that the British Humanist Association (who I’m not shilling for, BTW) do is to organise non-religious ceremonies and also to help people form communities without religion.

Comment #65: Pejar  on  09/07  at  02:53 PM

Not only does religion offer a sense of community and belonging, it offers rituals and traditions, which are often really important and meaningful in a deep way to people.  It helps you mark life events and transitions in a serious way—births, deaths, weddings, adulthood, illnesses, etc.  I think it’s often why people turn back to a church for weddings or baptisms—they want to mark these events in a meaningful way, and just inventing your own ritual whole cloth doesn’t necessarily feel as satisfying.  A religious tradition helps you link up to something bigger than yourself at these moments.  It’s all well and good to argue that this is an irrational need or that people shouldn’t need these rituals, but I think that many people do, and they don’t feel they can find them outside of religion, or they abandon their religion but find they miss this part of it.

Comment #66: Kit-Kat  on  09/07  at  03:16 PM

Generally they accept as fact what they hear from an authority figure, and if they detect a contradiction, rather than trying to reason it out themselves, they’ll again just ask an authority figure.

Isn’t this what most adults do, too?

Comment #67: EG01  on  09/07  at  03:23 PM

@Comment #66: Kit-Kat on 09/07 at 02:16 PM

Not only does religion offer a sense of community and belonging, it offers rituals and traditions, which are often really important and meaningful in a deep way to people.  It helps you mark life events and transitions in a serious way—births, deaths, weddings, adulthood, illnesses, etc.

I’ve often wished atheism had a phrase like, “(S)he’ll be in my prayers.”, as a way of indicating that you care about someone and wish them well, hope they get over a problem, etc. But we really don’t, we have “I hope (s)he’ll feel better”, or “I’ll be thinking about them”. Both are nice but they lack that certain something.

Comment #68: atheist  on  09/07  at  03:47 PM

What’s wrong with “S/he’ll be in my thoughts”? I use that all the time. And it expresses what people actually want out of the sentiment- the compassion of their fellow humans.

Comment #69: Steve LaBonne  on  09/07  at  03:54 PM

@Comment #69: Steve LaBonne on 09/07 at 03:54 PM

What’s wrong with “S/he’ll be in my thoughts”? I use that all the time. And it expresses what people actually want out of the sentiment- the compassion of their fellow humans.

You know, that’s true. “S/he’ll be in my thoughts” works fine.

The only thing missing is the (untrue) suggestion that your prayers are going to actually influence God to help the person in question.

Comment #70: atheist  on  09/07  at  04:04 PM

atheist @70:

That’s usually what I say.  “I’m so sorry, that really sucks”, or “I hope they get better”, or “I’d be more than happy to come by and clean, if that frees your time up at all”, if I’m sufficiently close to them.

(I try not to do the “if there’s anything I can do” thing, because (a) it’s rare that there is, and (b) it puts the burden of “think of a way this person can help” onto the person needing the help, which, meh.)

Punditus Maximus @53:

I am in hearts with your comment.

Comment #71: XtinaS  on  09/07  at  04:25 PM

Tyro, I’ve lived in cities for nearly all my life, and in my experience my humanities department colleagues are somewhat LESS likely to think of belief in god as weird, old-fashioned or kinds of stupid than my general social circle, which is mostly 40ish white hipster couples, often with young kids. If you went to one of the endless kid birthday parties and told everyone else you were going to take your kids to church, everyone would look at you as if you’d said you were going to roast them for dinner. Many of the professors will either not care, try to engage you in some kind of debate about what you meant by “god”, or just accept your beliefs as valid.

Comment #72: felagund  on  09/07  at  04:28 PM

I’ve seen enough atheist assholes to realize that religion is really a symptom of misogyny, hate, and even authoritarianism rather than the cause of all these things.

There aren’t really many atheists who’re free of the religious grip in a wider community sense.  Most’ve us who were raised atheist still had schoolmates, coworkers, family members, et cetera, who were going to church and getting filled up misogyny and whatnot. 

There’re probably three main vectors for large scale, long term transmission of misogyny: government, culture, and religion.  All three influence each other, but religion has a unique problem that a lot of it is anchored to something problematic.  It’s a lot of work to move culture to something nonsexist, but there’s no reason it can’t be done.  Ditto government.  Religion (often, anyhow) carries a special baggage of texts that’re full of “women are gross inferior creatures” bullshit.  There’s no getting away from that. 

In our own lives, yeah, it probably doesn’t matter much where someone gets their hate from.  They have what they have.  But in the long term, Abrahamic religions need to be binned if there’s ever to be gender equality (other ones too, but ~half of people are Abrahamic, so I’ll start there).  As long as people take the Bible, the Quran seriously, gender equality is off the table.

Comment #73: Brian  on  09/07  at  05:01 PM

“(I try not to do the “if there’s anything I can do” thing, because (a) it’s rare that there is, and (b) it puts the burden of “think of a way this person can help” onto the person needing the help, which, meh.)”

I read a great column about things not to say to a sick person (I think it was in the context of cancer) and this was one of them.  If you really want to help, you offer a specific service—“I’ll be over on Saturday/what would be a good time for me come over to shovel your walk/rake your leaves/fill your freezer with casseroles/do the laundry/whatever.”  Or “I can babysit your kids while you go to doctor’s appointments, please call me and tell me when you need me.”  Or some other specific offer.

Comment #74: Kit-Kat  on  09/07  at  05:05 PM

Belief in a god is a form of mental illness.

Er, no,  One of the key points in labelling something a mental illness is that it has an effect on their ability to deal with society.  IIRC, believers tend to be happier and better connected than non-believers.

“Cognitive deficiency” may be a better term.

Comment #75: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/07  at  05:13 PM

@Comment #42: AMM on 09/07 at 12:23 PM

I am more like you, AMM. I generally describe myself as “spiritual.” I have no problem with either atheism or organized religion until someone uses it to hurt another person, which happens all too often- unfortunately. For me, both atheism and organized religion would require me to ignore my own thoughts and feelings and personal experiences.

I have to say I’ve had more hardcore Christians try to persuade me than Atheists. My atheist friends have the general attitude of “I don’t care what crazy shit you believe because you don’t push it off on me.” Christians are generally more militant but after a few minutes of argument they back off.

Basically, I have a live and let life attitude. Each person is unique and who am I to say anything about what someone believes? (Unless it hurts or causes that person to support things that hurt other people.)

Comment #76: Genine  on  09/07  at  05:16 PM

“Religion (often, anyhow) carries a special baggage of texts that’re full of “women are gross inferior creatures” bullshit.  There’s no getting away from that.”

It seems to me that religiously-driven misogyny is an added bonus, if not a compelling feature, for all too many people.  Whether the religion made them into misogynists, or merely reaffirmed beliefs they already held, it’s a big huge problem that must be dealt with.

It would certainly help if the American Talibangelicals and the Catholics would reassess which parts of the bible they are most fond of, but I’m not gonna hold my breath waiting for them to come around. (In the case of the Catholics, it might be another 1,000 or 2,000-years before they drop their male-only hierarchy, if then…)...

Comment #77: MikeEss  on  09/07  at  05:17 PM

Children are always hungry for new knowledge, yes, but they’re not as capable of thinking critically about it. Generally they accept as fact what they hear from an authority figure, and if they detect a contradiction, rather than trying to reason it out themselves, they’ll again just ask an authority figure.

But in terms of being hungry for new information, a child is less able than an adult to distinguish between “the earth is round” and “there’s an all-powerful entity out there and the Bible accurately describes it.”

I recently read an article from Clifford Stoll on raising curious children.  He pointed out that sometimes he deliberately and blatantly lied to his children, forcing them to call him out and defend their claim he was wrong.  It got them into the habit of questioning what he said, which was necessary because he wasn’t always right anyway.

Comment #78: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/07  at  05:22 PM

While I think this is a very apt description of the dynamics of political styles within any movement and the necessity of those different styles, I think there may be a bit more substance to a lot of the inter-atheist debate. A lot (most?) of the prominent atheist activists have 2 goals wrt atheism: ending discrimination against atheist and making everyone into an atheist. These two goals are not the same and at times can conflict. And the “militant” and “nice” styles can exist within both aims (a militant could challenge people head on while a nice atheist might try to sympathize with the reasons for religion and nudge a person away from religion to win conversts, and a militant might call out every example of religious people being privilige in pop culture where a nice atheist would try to demonstrate how atheists are just like anybody else w/o stepping on toes in order to gain atheists’ rights) I think that atheist rights are held back by the apparent lack of an atheist rights movement that does not have conversion of non-atheists as a mission.

I also think that “nice” atheists don’t really have an organizational home and have, mistakenly resorted to whining at the militant wing instead of organizing on their own.

Comment #79: alysia  on  09/07  at  06:19 PM

it’s not likely to persuade someone unless they are already 99 percent there.  We aren’t nearly as rational as we think we are. 

I don’t think it has to be anywhere near 99 percent in the direction on non-belief. A 100 percent believer will of course never be convinced, because their beliefs are held in direct defiance of evidence, which they view as a test of their faith. If there’s any amount of reasonable doubt in a person, and a willingness to engage evidence without a predetermined conclusion in mind, they can move to nonbelief over a much wider margin.

Comment #80: junk science  on  09/07  at  06:21 PM

#73:

There’re probably three main vectors for large scale, long term transmission of misogyny: government, culture, and religion.

*eye-roll*  Other than genetics, I think you’ve covered about every possible large scale, long term means of transmitting of anything.  It might further be worth mentioning that government and religion are really just facets of culture anyway.

I think a better match might simply be family, community, and authority figures as vectors for these kinds of bad impulses.  When you see women cheapened and abused growing up, when you live in a community where women aren’t valued equally with men, or when you exist in a system where those in authority lead through abuse or otherwise condone and permit misogynistic practices, that’s where the problem becomes systemic.

Religion can be a vector, but only in so far as the authority figures and communities and families that embrace the religion let it be a factor.  Simple belief in a higher power doesn’t do anything to encourage or discourage misogyny on its own.

Comment #81: Zifnab  on  09/07  at  06:26 PM

“It got them into the habit of questioning what he said, which was necessary because he wasn’t always right anyway.”

...so, what you’re saying is Clifford Stoll is another extremist lefty who is trying to destroy the ‘Merican Fambly by raisin’ kids who question the God-given authority of The Family Father.  Goddam libruls…

Comment #82: MikeEss  on  09/07  at  06:27 PM

“Simple belief in a higher power doesn’t do anything to encourage or discourage misogyny on its own.”

...true.  But since when has any religion been organized around the mere simple belief that there’s a “higher power”?  About 2-seconds after deciding there was a god, the next thing those newly-religious humans did was to invent and codify a whole bunch of rules and dogma — which is where the misogyny can usually be found.

“You can’t be a priest unless you have the correct genitalia.  Women on their period are unclean and must be avoided.  Women are the property of a man, who shall have ultimate authority over them…”

That’s when the fun starts…

Comment #83: MikeEss  on  09/07  at  06:37 PM

If you—atheist, Christian, whatever—want to “persuade” me, don’t waste your time with slick marketing.  Instead, try to be a good and decent human being 24/7 (or at least 23/6) and show me that your religious beliefs (or un-beliefs) are at least compatible with being the kind of person I’d like to become.

Well, let’s test Amanda’s point. Did you become vaguely religious because some vaguely religious people were good and decent human beings 23/6 (or more!) and showed you that their vague beliefs or vague unbeliefs are at least compatible with being the kind of person you’d like to become?

Actually yes, in a sense.  That is, people who acted in a way I admired led me to be more open to their beliefs.  I can think of two examples:

First, by the time I was 16, I was thoroughly fed up with the church I was raised in (Episcopal) and was convinced that being Episcopalian made you a hypocrite, a know-nothing, and was about sucking up to the powerful.  I was telling everyone I was an atheist.  It happened that our church got a new minister: Jack Spong (some of you may have heard of him.)  His example forced me to consider the possibility that one could have a brain and some integrity and still be religious.  40 years later, I still feel his influence, and it’s probably the #1 reason I can’t join the “religion is a mental illness” crowd.  Unfortunately, the constant contact with the other Episcopalians kept souring me on Episcopalianism.

Second, I had heard good things about Friends’ schools, and got to know some teachers at some of their schools in Philadelphia.  It was that contact that led me to attend my first Quaker Meeting, and it was the people I met there that led me to become a Quaker.

(Unfortunately, in later years I ended up among Quakers I could not admire, which led me to stop attending.)

 

Comment #84: AMM  on  09/07  at  06:59 PM

My objection to posts like this is the idea that atheism is monolithic, and that any one atheist speaks for the rest of us.  I hear advocates of Richard Dawkins say “The atheist doesn’t say ‘God doesn’t exist’, he says ‘God can’t be proven to exist…’”, and I think “Bullshit.”  I say “God doesn’t exist.”  Like everything else in life, there are different kinds of atheism.

The other thing I think is that you don’t choose what you believe.  I didn’t choose atheism, or rationalize it to myself.  It’s just something I acknowledged about myself.  I don’t believe there’s a god.  I think the most effective marketing of atheism isn’t persuading people to believe or not believe, but rather it’s helping people who already don’t believe to acknowledge that about themselves.

Comment #85: Wallace  on  09/07  at  07:00 PM

It might further be worth mentioning that government and religion are really just facets of culture anyway.

That attempt to deflect culpability away from religions might fly if religions were no more misogynist than the culture, but they’re not.  They’re at the forefront, offering up justifications for women-hating.

Comment #86: rain  on  09/07  at  07:11 PM

@argus #61 Some people are altruistic, some people are not, but you don’t need religion for that, you may need some organization, you may need those people to be able to see beyond themselves and how their own self interests are helped by the good of those and the society around them.  They may have to live long enough to figure it out but religion doesn’t seem to be a requirement there but to go kill those people over there, people you have never seen and have no real problem with other than they exist.  Religion helps a lot.  There is really no other reason for it in my mind.

Comment #87: ewellone  on  09/07  at  07:18 PM

At some point during my first serious psychology class (was that high school or college?  I don’t remember, but it was at least 50 years ago) ... anyway, at some time during that class, I realized that “oh, *this* is where religion comes from!”

We were learning about conditioning.  In its simplest form, some small animal is in a cage of some kind, and it’s wandering around committing various behaviors, and you choose the one you want to encourage, and every time the critter does that, you give it a food pellet.  Inevitably, some of the critters are going to have done something else just before they did the target behavior, and they are going to associate the reward with both behaviors, and learn the one you want them to learn, and also the other one.

It’s like superstition, and in fact, it’s called “superstitious behavior”, and it was obvious to me, as a kid, that this has happened to a lot of people: they have come to associate things that were not really associated except by random occurrence.

It’s always a surprise to me that other people don’t make this connection and say to themselves “So that’s where religion comes from.  Interesting.”  Of course, religion as it is now practiced tends to have those weekly meetings and usually weekly or monthly potlucks, and group projects and all those other things that people find rewarding in their own right, so it’s not entirely superstition.

So, no, I’m not a believer.  Naturally, I ended up a Quaker (although a lot of my family was Quakers a few generations back, it didn’t carry over to the current generation).  But I’m not at all ashamed to use the best bits of religion when they come in handy, as for instance in raising kids. 

One of my favorite bits is something Francis of Assisi said: “Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.”  I don’t believe religion is needed for people to be altruistic (I believe that research has shown the even animals can exhibit altruistic behavior), but if it can help, I’m not afraid to use it.

By the way, when I was reading about how difficult it is to convince people, I thought also about the fact that “convinced” is what Quakers say instead of “converted”—as in, “Then, in 1982, I became Convinced.”

Comment #88: Older  on  09/07  at  07:57 PM

Psychologically, it takes much more energy to maintain an ideology than it does to accept the contingencies of reality as they are.  That is why Buddhism is closer to atheism than any of the Abrahamic religions.  That is also why there is an energy saving aspect to Buddhism that can be conducive to mental health. 

The best thing atheists can do to convert believers to their own values is nothing.  Let the religionists work themselves up into a froth, but don’t respond to their incitements.  The force of energy preservation will justify our point of view in the end.

Comment #89: scratchy888  on  09/07  at  10:14 PM

Psychologically, it takes much more energy to maintain an ideology than it does to accept the contingencies of reality as they are.

No, you’re wrong.  People are very great at seeing patterns and connections that don’t exist.  It takes an enormous amount of effort to even notice when we’re wrong, let alone convince ourselves to stop it.  Human brains aren’t inherently rational, and anyone who thinks they are is having the biggest delusion of all.

Comment #90: bananacat  on  09/07  at  11:21 PM

I guess I can weigh in on the unquestioning minds of children issue and the variety of approaches working.  I was Catholic until I was ten, which was the first time I heard anyone say that they weren’t sure there was a God.  First I was afraid I was going to go to hell if I even thought about there being no God, but then I decided that just thinking about it was not enough to condemn me.  Before that I was a True Believer.  It took about half an hour of really thinking about it to be 99% sure there wasn’t a God.  But all it took was being exposed to that point of view once. 

I wasn’t planning on being convinced or even doubting before that.  It did feel exactly like realizing there was no Santa Claus, to the point where for a little while afterward I secretly wondered if all of the grandparents were telling the adults the same kind of story, and smiling between themselves about the joke.

Comment #91: Nimravid  on  09/08  at  12:32 AM

No, you’re wrong.  People are very great at seeing patterns and connections that don’t exist.  It takes an enormous amount of effort to even notice when we’re wrong, let alone convince ourselves to stop it.  Human brains aren’t inherently rational, and anyone who thinks they are is having the biggest delusion of all.

And, if I am wrong…?

Comment #92: scratchy888  on  09/08  at  12:59 AM

Sounds like you had a similar experience to my grandfather, Nimravid.  When he was eight or nine, he just decided that the whole concept didn’t make any sense, and has never looked back.

Comment #93: EG01  on  09/08  at  01:35 AM

I think it owes a lot to cultural paranoia about how advertisers and marketers manipulate us.

Which inasmuch as it’s true is a shame because if there’s one thing we should take from modern advertising/marketing/pr/etc it’s that what ultimately works is lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of it from as many angles as possible.

Comment #94: Dan  on  09/08  at  02:02 AM

What religion offers is that it’s what you’ve always had.

It also offers hope in the face of death, which is terrifying.

Which doesn’t help in terms of atheism offering the same thing because atheism really can’t ever offer that and be honest with itself. But IDK that it does atheism any good to pretend that isn’t there.

Comment #95: Dan  on  09/08  at  02:07 AM

At some point during my first serious psychology class (was that high school or college?  I don’t remember, but it was at least 50 years ago) ... anyway, at some time during that class, I realized that “oh, *this* is where religion comes from!”

We were learning about conditioning.  In its simplest form, some small animal is in a cage of some kind, and it’s wandering around committing various behaviors, and you choose the one you want to encourage, and every time the critter does that, you give it a food pellet.  Inevitably, some of the critters are going to have done something else just before they did the target behavior, and they are going to associate the reward with both behaviors, and learn the one you want them to learn, and also the other one.

Once again - religion started off as man’s attempt to negotiate with the weather.

Comment #96: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/08  at  02:14 AM

On the flip side:  My intro to philosophy class in college was taught by an amazing professor, and his pedagogical method was to read and dissect the major arguments for and against the existence of god the entire semester.  At the end, we basically discussed the point that not one of those arguments would persuade anyone who was not already disposed to believe as a result of their experience and personality.  The arguments are the hooks for what already resonates in us—it is possible to believe in God knowing that there is no way to definitively prove God’s existence.  (Which is where I stand—I believe in God, because of my personal experiences and because it’s the best way to explain the mysterious and numinous in the world as I have experienced those things.  I also think that I am a better person because of this belief, which has not only never interfered with my feminism or my commitment to social justice, nor with my ability to accept science and reason, but has actually strengthened these beliefs and commitments—but I don’t try to convert anyone.)

I guess my feeling is that arguments follow belief, not the other way around.  And the argument might provide a hook for someone who already believes that there is or is not a god, or an articulation of what they believe, but it’s not likely to persuade someone unless they are already 99 percent there.  We aren’t nearly as rational as we think we are.

What? No, that’s silly.

Your argument against, well, argument, seems to assume that an argument has to move a person to 100% persuasion, and if it doesn’t then it isn’t worth bothering.

Which is bullshit. No, your argument is never going to move anyone from zero to 100%. But you know what, it’s absolutely completely possible to move them from zero to 1%, or from 45 to 50%. And yes it’s entirely likely that their response to that will be shouting a whole lot and saying you’re wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong and never, ever openly admitting that you might have had a point. And then you run into them again and MYSTERIOUSLY they have views that are a bit closer to yours.

And yes there are people who you’re never ever gonna move even 1%, because A. they’re dumb or B. you’re the one who’s wrong. But, you know… oh well!

But yeah we know people do change and we know it doesn’t happen by magic - or at least I do, CAUSE I’M AN ATHEIST, LOL - so yeah, just because it’s messy and chaotic and not especially rewarding doesn’t mean you just throw your hands up in the air and go home. Or at least it doesn’t mean that to me, cause I kind of think atheism means admitting that things are just messy and incomprehensible and plain-ass hard, and you just like, deal with them anyway.

Comment #97: Dan  on  09/08  at  02:25 AM

Sounds like you had a similar experience to my grandfather, Nimravid.  When he was eight or nine, he just decided that the whole concept didn’t make any sense, and has never looked back.

I’m yet another one of these (around age 11). People like us are one of the reasons why just the sheer visibility of unbelievers and unbelief is so important. A lone doubter who is unaware of the existence of others like herself- and yes, it’s still like that in many communities in the US- is in a tough position; most human beings, at any age, have a hard time being out on a limb that way.

Comment #98: Steve LaBonne  on  09/08  at  07:03 AM

I think a better match might simply be family, community, and authority figures as vectors for these kinds of bad impulses

None of these vectors has long term propogation power, and most don’t really have widespread either.  A family affects maybe a handful of people for one generation.  A community might be more like a few hundred, or a few thousand, and probably persists for a couple generations.  An authority figure gets a generation, though obviously some are widespread.  Christianity, and Islam, are doing it to more than a billion people each, and they’ve been doing it for more than a thousand years.

Other than genetics, I think you’ve covered about every possible large scale, long term means of transmitting of anything.

Yes, of course, that was my entire purpose. The point is to compare them and realise that government and culture don’t have an inherent reason to be misogynist, but religions, as they exist, are mostly (and here I say mostly since most religious people are Christian or Muslim, so they constitute most religion) tied to explicitly misogynist founding documents (that are, formally, more or less the whole basis for the religion). 

Why would you look at potential culprits you know aren’t capable of the deed?  Look at those who are!

Comment #99: Brian  on  09/08  at  09:09 AM

A family affects maybe a handful of people for one generation.  A community might be more like a few hundred, or a few thousand, and probably persists for a couple generations.  An authority figure gets a generation, though obviously some are widespread.  Christianity, and Islam, are doing it to more than a billion people each, and they’ve been doing it for more than a thousand years

Christianity and Islam are made up of families, communities, and authority figures which teach and propagate their belief system. Religion is not a separate entity to those three things.

Comment #100: Tyro  on  09/08  at  09:26 AM

Which doesn’t help in terms of atheism offering the same thing because atheism really can’t ever offer that and be honest with itself. But IDK that it does atheism any good to pretend that isn’t there.

I think the extreme likelihood that I won’t be burning in hell for eternity because there is no eternity has some comfort to offer.

And the idea that you’re the captain of your own ship is comforting. Like the TV vampire says “If nothing we do matters, then nothing matters but what we do.”

Comment #101: witless chum  on  09/08  at  09:52 AM

I tend toward the friendly approach, both because as the daughter of a Presbyterian minister who is on the far-liberal end of things, I have a lot of respect for liberal religious people, even though I’m an agnostic. I also feel like in the short term, at least, the atheist movement’s main goal should be issues-driven - ensuring a stronger protection of church and state, including getting creationism and school-led prayer out of public schools. (I would also add abstinence-until-marriage into this, since it’s based on religious values rather than science and statistics, and most programs are at least pseudo-religious.) I think with those issues, the allies we have among liberal religious people/religious minorities are too important to alienate. Basically, I agree with what John Scalzi has to say here: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2006/09/17/thinking-about-the-god-delusion/

On the other hand, I also agree with what Dan Savage says here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrEsHtSSWfs I think way too many liberal Christians are quicker to whisper “we’re not all like that!” whenever someone rails against Christian fundamentalists, than they are to confront the fundamentalists themselves. As Savage said, WE KNOW THAT, it’s the fundies who don’t know that and think they’re the only “true” Christians.  I also feel like even liberal Christians often don’t completely understand the various microaggressions that non-Christians in general, or non-religious people specifically, have to put up with in a country where religion is so illegally intertwined with government. Look at Obama - a liberal Christian, and a constitutional law scholar to boot - supporting Bush’s “faith-based initiatives.” I mean, it’s easy for him to act like that’s not something worth fighting over, but he isn’t the sort of person who is hurt by that. It’s times like that when I really feel like the only president I could trust is a non-religious one.

Comment #102: Erda  on  09/08  at  02:03 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.