I always tell people who are in a snit because they haven’t gotten their daily affirmation that God loves them best that if they’re so upset about the War on Christmas, they should make a dramatic public statement by not showing up for work that day.

You’re completely right about how upsetting the mere existence of atheists is for the fundie crowd. At a recent family gathering, somebody asked me what church I attend, and I pleasantly said “None, I’m atheist,” and moved the discussion on to the food spread.  Later that evening, I got pulled aside and was told not to ‘shove my atheism down their throats.’  Because apparently their was some extra room in the various throats present that wasn’t being filled by pumpkin pie, and my mild bit of self-identification might just sneak down when nobody was looking. Scary!

My friend and business partner sometimes gets into this whole “war on Christmas” crap. His favourite (and mine, as I have the perfect comeback) is that it’s “Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays.” At which point I remind him that back home in Vancouver, more people speak Cantonese in the home than English. Granted, some of these native Cantonese speakers are Christian. However, many cultures have a winter celebration that occurs roughly the same time, so you’re always safe with “happy holidays.”

Living as I do now in Japan, people would look at me like I was crazy either way. Well… maybe not. Most Japanese people would probably think it’s cool, because everything a crazy foreigner does is cool.

My favorite part of the Dallas bus “controversy” was that someone paid for that van pictured above to follow the buses all day with a christian message on them.

Some people LITERALLY have too much money.

Or in the case of Pat Buchanan, pretend that people with genitals don’t have Christmas.

A culture-war article from Pat Buchanan? It is Xmas! I had to click through, just to make sure that Buchanan hadn’t failed to bung in an evil rootless cosmopolitan intent on corrupting good Aryan Christians ...

To Post art critic Blake Gopnik, the “show about gay sex” at the gallery is “courageous” and “full of wonderful art. My review of it was a rave.”

The man is consistent. I’ll give him that.

“Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays”

I guess he doesn’t celebrate New Year’s, then?

“There’s nothing like your first abortion.  Getting your uterus scraped out is always a pleasure beyond compare, but your first time is special.”  I just spit milk on my keyboard

I definitely laughed out loud over that dialog. You win three internets for the day!

Am I the only one who finds it odd that some Christians consider it an assault on their faith when atheists and other challenge the use of public facilities for displays of the Christian religion such as a creche?  These Christians find it an offense that atheists, et al., don’t either get with the Christian program or at least shut up? Weren’t the original Christians persecuted (often to death) by Rome for similar reasons—because they refused to go along with the Roman state religion and denied the Roman gods?

I’ve never been a fan of atheist billboards, I think they are a big waste of money.  I think atheist groups can use that money for better things.  Besides, a message like “millions of Americans are good without god” gives into negative stereotypes about atheists that somehow being good is the defacto position of being religious and somehow atheists have to defend themselves as good.  IMHO, the exact opposite is true and I think it’s religious people who should be on the defensive.  If there was one billboard or ad that I would approve, it would be “millions of Americans can be good WITH god.”

Also atheist billboards are easily the target of counter billboards by Christians and they have more money to do it.

I hope that’s not what Tatum considers a test of his faith. Speaking as somebody who literally doesn’t own a Bible, that fella sounds woefully unprepared for a real challenge to his beliefs, and I don’t know if he has the grit to pass one.

Besides, a message like “millions of Americans are good without god” gives into negative stereotypes about atheists that somehow being good is the defacto position of being religious and somehow atheists have to defend themselves as good.

Whether you like it or not, those stereotypes are a major factor in the culture, and they’re not going to go away by wishing. Like negative stereotypes about blacks or gays, the only way to make any progress in getting rid of them is to push back. We can’t all just get along as long as they are portraying us as the Devil incarnate and we are just looking the other way.

ThresherK—exactly. Someone needs to tell this guy that most people don’t do everything that a bus ad tells them to.

I understand that these ads may be considered to be timed specifically to upset Christians the most (then again, making believe you are persecuted is a year-round thing for the religious extremists), but it’s understandable that they’re posted at Christmas.  Christmas is the time of year (Christmas “season” now begins at Halloween) when Christmas messages inundate every single aspect of everyone’s lives, whether those lives are Christian or not.  It is oppressive.  The reaction is understandable.  It is also understandable that people of other religions don’t speak up about it because they are scared.  Killing beating, and otherwise harming people of other faiths is a long-standing Christian tradition.  Atheists tend to be less fearful generally.

Omnipresent, sure, but “oppressive”?  Dood, get a spine.

Also: “Atheists tend to be less fearful generally.”  ROTFL.  As if.

“Speaking as somebody who literally doesn’t own a Bible, that fella sounds woefully unprepared for a real challenge to his beliefs, and I don’t know if he has the grit to pass one.”

Sounds like he’s also perfectly aware, at least at a subconscious level, that he couldn’t survive a serious challenge to his beliefs. 

These people are always filled some sort of christianist bravado, armed as they are with talking points given them in church or in their literature.  But if it came down to an actual defense of their beliefs most would be left unable continue after using up their canned talking points. 

As with many things, the people who are not True Believers often know far more about the beliefs of the True Believers than those who consider themselves to be True Believers. 

People who are not already poisoned by the irrational beliefs of their preferred religion are more easily able to ask themselves the tough questions: 

What if religion is just bullshit invented by scared people who are afraid of everything they don’t understand? 

What if religion just represents something to cling to and avoid the distinct possibility there is no reason for anything?

What if your life has no inherent meaning, and no purpose except to enable the strands of DNA locked in your cells to propagate themselves?

What if any meaning in your life is something that can only be created by you, for yourself, and cannot found in the ancient beliefs and sacred texts of long dead historical civilizations and cultures?

For a lot of people, those questions are something that you must put out of your minds and never, ever, think about.  They’re the ones who just want somebody to tell them what beliefs they should hold, and what rituals they should perform, and in return they get a promise of some glorious reward — a reward that has less actual value than what you’d find in a box of Cracker Jacks.

Some of us just can’t fool ourselves that well — or don’t want to…

VIRGIN (WHO LOOKS LIKE SARAH PALIN MIXED WITH TAYLOR SWIFT, BUT WITH EYES THAT TAKE UP MOST OF HER HEAD): Well, I had no interest in sex before, and didn’t even really know what it was, but I’m going to go out and ride like 15 cocks tonight, all because now I can an abortion!  I can’t wait.

I saw a movie with that plot line.

Well, I say “saw”, but I did a lot of fast-forwarding during it…

Yes, Dunc, my thoughts exactly when reading Albert’s comment.  Sadly, we DO have to defend ourselves as good. Many people are explicitly taught by their religions that atheists are immoral and evil.  When that is no longer believed by a huge portion of the population, then we won’t have to argue back at the inaccurate stereotype.

And I love the billboards & bus ads - the main point of these really isn’t to change anyone’s mind, it’s all about outreach.  Their target is people who have already concluded (or are beginning to realize) that god/religion is BS, but they feel totally alone with that perspective. They need to know that there are other people like them out there, that they can find a like-minded community, that what the church they were raised in says about that point of view is wrong.  Like the answering back of stereotypes: I long for the day when this outreach is not needed, but right now it really is.

I do see strong paralells to the movement for LGBT rights.  As a middle-aged gay person, I have seen progress in that movement that I never would have dreamed of.  We’ve moved from just asserting our right to exist as honestly gay people and not be seen as evil deviants, to nondiscrimination laws and real progress toward marriage.  If you had told me, when I was a teenager, that gay marriage would even just be part of the national discussion within my lifetime, I would’ve thought you were nuts.

Atheists are now at that beginning point: just asserting our right to exist and not be seen as evil deviants. Probably more atheists are in the closet than out.  At every stage of the fight for equality, there will be vocal backlash.  But I believe progress will be made.

Get a spine?  That’s just idiotic.  Have you something real to say, or are you just another dopey troll?

After all, Fort Worth is a place where residents commonly ask people they have just met where they worship…

How fucking rude…

When I was young, before I went off to college, I had a chat with my father, where he explained to me something called “Ward Room Rules.”  (A ward room is the room on a navy ship where the officers gather to eat, meet, socialize, etc.)  In the ward room, there were three topics that were off-limits:

politics
religion
women

While I suspect the latter may have been honored only in the breach, they’re a very very good set of rules for interactions with people with whom you are casually acquainted.  I’ll discuss these topics when I know someone better.

Also: “Atheists tend to be less fearful generally.” ROTFL.  As if.

Yeah, we’re so fearful of death that we have to make up stories about how it’s all going to be puppies and rainbows, otherwise we just couldn’t face it.  And we don’t think morality can exist without fear of eternal punishment.  We freak out at the merest suggestion that people with varying beliefs exist.  We’re just all about fear.
...oh wait, that’s not the atheists, is it?

Calliope, there was a gay rights activist at Skepticon who did his speech on just that—-the parallels.  I was impressed, mainly because I tend to live in urbane environments where atheism is no big deal.  But that’s not true for everyone.

And to begin to understand the relationship between fear and religiosity from actual RESEARCH rather than just pulling opinions out of one’s ass, this review article is a good start:
  Vail, et al. (2010) A terror management analysis of the psychological functions of religion. Personality and Social Psychology Review, Vol 14(1), pp. 84-94.

Is the “holiday season” oppressive to atheists?  I agree with the omnipresence.  I have to think about whether it is oppression.

Oppression is the unjust use of authority and power to suppress that which the authority and power disagrees.  Without a doubt, there are aspects of the season that I personally find irritating (the musak carols become downright painful to my ears by now, but that’s the worst aspect to me.  So, I just do less business in public spaces at this time.  Am I oppressed?)  I also find it annoying when I travel on the 25th that it is difficult to find places open to eat, buy gas, etc.  2007, I was in Tofino, BC, and everything was closed.

I could see family situations as being extremely oppressive.  Each person’s life is different, and how they experience life is different, so I definitely could agree…  For some, it is oppressive.

We say that the heat is oppressive, though I doubt anyone actually thinks that the heat is unjustly using it’s authority to deprive anyone of their rights.  I think DBK was using the word in the former sense.

#12

That’s exactly what I was trying to say, push back.

op·pres·sive
 /əˈprɛsɪv/ [uh-pres-iv]–adjective
1. burdensome, unjustly harsh, or tyrannical: an oppressive king; oppressive laws.
2. causing discomfort by being excessive, intense, elaborate, etc.: oppressive heat.
3. distressing or grievous: oppressive sorrows.

See definition number 2 above.  I wrote “oppressive”, not “oppression”.  Two different words, each having its own definition.

Got pedant?

Oppression is the unjust use of authority and power to suppress that which the authority and power disagrees.

Most Americans are Christians, and Christmas is a national holiday, despite the fact it is a religious one.

I don’t think it used to be so oppressive, but since the assholes have gone on their “Christmas War” rampage demanding that everyone say “Merry Christmas” be they co-religionists or not, I’d say oppression is a big part of it now.

It’s amusing to me in part b/c of the Charlie Brown Christmas special—a big part of that cartoon is denouncing the commercialization of a religious holiday.  The Grinch hits the same note: Christmas is not about the toys; it comes just the same.

Now you have Bill O’Reilly et. al. screaming b/c there’s not ENOUGH commercialization.  They WANT the stores to co-opt Christmas.  They’re offended if the stores try to cater to everyone and don’t treat their religious holiday as primary.  A store!

Worst of all, I now have trouble hearing “Merry Christmas” b/c it’s come to mean “Fuck YOU!” to too many people.  It should be a kind greeting, but instead it’s a challenge and a threat.

The Christmas Warriors are most certainly trying to oppress, even if it makes a mockery of their supposed belief system.

Oppression is the unjust use of authority and power to suppress that which the authority and power disagrees.

Oppression is also the action of weighing heavily upon the mind or spirit.

And given the suicide rates in December I’d say it is fairly safe to maintain that the Christmas season is pretty damned oppressive to a fairly large segment of the populace be they believer or not.

DBK, you’re such a delicate flower that displays of religion “oppress” you?  Call the fucking wahmbulence.

Cruise on by in your atheistic happiness, whiner.  That’s what I do.

Sarcastro,

That December suicide thing is a myth:

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/suicide.asp

Always check snopes before spreading rumors.

Dopey troll still has nothing resembling an intelligent argument.  Not surprising.

my favorite bit about the truck following the fort worth bus:  there are ONLY 2.1 billion christians in a world exceeding 6 billion people.

two thousand years, and you still can’t even scrape together a majority?

So, how do y’all feel about moderate Christians who aren’t terribly bothered by atheists (indeed, might even count them as friends), unburdened by saying “Happy Holidays,” and are generally content to worship and do good works without making a fuss about it?

I only ask because I sometimes get the impression of a categorical distaste for believers from the comments here, and occasionally the main posts.

In the ward room, there were three topics that were off-limits:

politics
religion
women

While I suspect the latter may have been honored only in the breach, they’re a very very good set of rules for interactions with people with whom you are casually acquainted.  I’ll discuss these topics when I know someone better.
Comment #20: James on 12/15 at 02:22 PM

I talk about women all the time. They’re not just for sexin’, you know.

Brightnoah - If we’re not talking about how terrible moderate Christians who aren’t mean to us are, then we’re probably not talking about you.

I think you’re missing the point in my comment about oppression.  <b>Each person’s life is different, and how they experience life is different<b>.  I try not to make judgments about others perceptions of the world around them, so if they say they feel oppressed, I accept that they feel oppressed.  I accept that things that make some people feel oppressed may not make others feel oppressed.

I only ask because I sometimes get the impression of a categorical distaste for believers from the comments here, and occasionally the main posts.

There’s not a lot of respect for those who believe in the supernatural here, which isn’t surprising given that one of the site’s owners is a skeptic and atheist who asks you to Blaspheme when posting a comment.

As long as you don’t prostelytise or take runs against the Establishment Clause, though, most here don’t really care what you personally believe in.

I take individuals as they come, but moderate belief in supernatural beings is equally irrational to fundamentalist belief.  And while moderates are definitely easier to get along with, I have to admit fundies are more logical in some ways.  For instance, fundies are correct that atheism and rationality are a threat to irrationality.  They’re also right that gay marriage is a threat to traditional, patriarchal marriage that was established to subjugate women.

I think someone is missing someone’s point, James.  Don’t know if you’re responding to me or others, (#37), but I got that in what you wrote.  In my case, however, I was responding to your misreading of what I wrote.  I never said anything about “oppression”, but about how the excess of Christmas hoopla is “oppressive”.  You offered a definition of “oppression” in response to what I wrote, but I never used the term “oppression”.  See #14 and #27.

@DBK: It is never correct to assume that a conservative is arguing in good faith.

It is true that, as an atheist, I think even moderate believers are not correct, but I generally have a “live and let live” attitude as long as that attitude is reciprocated and beliefs are kept out of the public policy-making sphere.  I don’t go around saying “you are wrong” to such people, but I will say “I am an atheist” which of course implies it.  Of course, people saying “I believe in god” similarly implies they think I am wrong, so that goes both ways, and there’s no reason to view one as more offensive than the other. 

I see it as similar to my friend who’s convinced that wearing her lucky shirt has something to do with the Saints winning football games.  I think she’s wrong that it has any effect, but there’s no harm done, so I feel no need to argue with her superstition.  Really, New Orleans is so rife with all sorts of superstitions that I’d have almost no one to hang out with if I rigidly insisted on clear rationality in everyone’s internal beliefs.

Again, if something doesn’t apply to you, then it’s NOT ABOUT YOU.

I have no problem with anyone who believes in God.  I have problems with people who believe that their religious beliefs entitle them to behave like assholes.

Christians would do well to read Jesus’ words on the subject: namely the Gospel of Matthew.  That’s where he says to shut up, pray in quiet, and God will hear you.  If you want to make a spectacle of yourself like the hypocrites, well, they’ve already received their reward.

Blasphemed too soon.

Idiot relatives sent me a Christmas Warrior letter letting me know that Christians are tired of turning the other cheek.  I quite enjoyed letting them know that meant they were not following Christ.

Idiot relatives sent me a Christmas Warrior letter letting me know that Christians are tired of turning the other cheek.  I quite enjoyed letting them know that meant they were not following Christ.

They were following Jeezus.

I shouldn’t be surprised by something like this, yet here I am, totally gobsmacked that someone would hire a truck to follow a bus to “combat” the message.  Nothing like totally drawing attention to an ad that most people would ignore.  Hint: If you have to be that obnoxious to prove your point, less people will agree with you.  In fact, you look like the world’s biggest flaming asshole instead.

“In fact, you look like the world’s biggest flaming asshole instead.”

Feature, not a bug

So what you’re saying is that for wingnuts atheism is the theological equivalent of gay sex, i.e. the hottest most attractive thing anyone could possibly imagine (but wrong and sinful), so hot that even allowing public mention of it or its adherents is going to send millions of true believers heading for the bathhouses and the bookstores?

I have no problem with anyone who believes in God.  I have problems with people who believe that their religious beliefs entitle them to behave like assholes.

I personally also have a problem with people who believe their religious beliefs (coughChristianity, usually) oblige them to take a rhetorical bullet for the asshole set. When moderates climb up on that cross next to their fanatical brethren, complaining simultaneously that 1) they don’t believe in that stuff oh goodness no they have a nice version of Christianity and 2) why are you always picking on the Pope/megachurches/douchebags it is so darn mean to all us Christians—! ...Yeah, then I have a problem with moderates too. Stop acting like fucking adorable little human shields for the evil ones, pls. You don’t need to feel like being a Christian compels you to defend child molesters and exorcists just because your religious tribal identity has randomly kicked in, yanno?

They’re also right that gay marriage is a threat to traditional, patriarchal marriage that was established to subjugate women.

I think the horse is long gone from that particular barn.  The reason marriage equality is so relatively simple (legally, if not politically) is that feminism has already done most of the heavy lifting by making the legal rights and obligations of marriage symmetric between the partners.  That means that from a legal standpoint, marriage equality is pretty much just a matter of saying “You know all those laws and decisions that define what rights and obligations two people in a marriage have towards one another and towards the state?  Well, just take all that and apply it to these two people over here.”

If we were still back in the days when, say, a husband had the right to dispose of his wife’s property without her consent, then gay marriage would be much harder, because we would first have to define how the specific roles of “husband” and “wife” apply to a same-sex couple.  But we are now well past that point.  Traditionalists can still layer asymmetric social expectations on top of the legal structure, of course, and they can continue to do so even in the presence of gay marriage.  The only thing that gay marriage really takes away from them is the ability to pretend that the structure of marriage hasn’t already changed.  But that particular change took place decades ago.

Eric_RoM: I find non-stop xmas comercials, specials and carols taking over my usual watching and listening spaces to be oppressive.  And f#cking annoying.

There is a mall in Jakarta that has an absolutely huge Christmas tree and it goes dark for a fountain to be lit up in colored lights while joyfull, joyfull we adore thee plays twice a day.  My husband took video while he and my son were there last week.  The music is off from the traditional enough to still be enjoyable and the lights are cool.

I think someone is missing someone’s point, James.  Don’t know if you’re responding to me or others, (#37), but I got that in what you wrote.  In my case, however, I was responding to your misreading of what I wrote.  I never said anything about “oppression”, but about how the excess of Christmas hoopla is “oppressive”.  You offered a definition of “oppression” in response to what I wrote, but I never used the term “oppression”.  See #14 and #27.

I was talking generally, previously.  When I respond to people, I quote them, as above.

I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

James, you wrote:

“I think you’re missing the point in my comment about oppression.”

That’s pretty ambiguous.

Re: moving a creche from public to private property

And here I thought they wanted to privatize everything.

I find it oppressive to my gourmet soul not to be able to buy a good wine to cook or drink with dinner in my part entire state, if it happens that I want to buy it on Sunday - and don’t even dare suggest cooking wine!!!

http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2010/12/in-my-opinion-this-is-child-abuse.html

THis seems a tad pertinent.  Watch the videos.

I always get here too late, but if this thread isn’t dead this might give you a laugh - I’m on my company’s “diversity,” no, I’m sorry, “inclusion” committee.  this year our December meeting started with required attendance at a holiday show which was solely xmas carols and hymns - no shit.  talk about missing the point.  and not even a Feliz Navidad for the lone Mexican in the group.  I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. (I laughed, but I was crying inside, where it counts)

as far as the happy holidays v. merry xmas - I always thought it was just good business sense.  were I a merchant I’d want to cash in on that sweet, sweet Kwanzaa and Hanukkah cash, too.  why limit yourself to one holiday when you can have them all?