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Attack of the morally depraved sperm stealing abortion partiers

So not but a few minutes after I posted about stupid attempts to grant men legal ownership over women should they accidentally impregnate them, I read this post by Gabriela at Bitch Blogs about a couple of paranoid, annoying pieces by men who, while granting that coming in someone doesn’t give you legal ownership over her, should at least buy you some moral ownership.  Gabriela is far too generous with Conor Friedersdorf, who thinks the “what about child support?!” argument has any validity, and Damon Linker, who is very concerned that feminists are encouraging immoral displays of excessive independence for women who’ve had the presence of semen within their vaginas in recent memory.  Conor is less interesting to me.  He uses the phrase “your agenda on reproductive rights”, making it exquisitely clear that he doesn’t consider women’s rights to be human rights, and there’s not much you can do with someone whose argument is premised on the belief that “women” are a separate category from “human”. He also buys into the fallacy that child support constitutes 100% of the expense of raising a child, when of course single mothers usually pay far more than 50% of the money and 90% of the time and 100% of the physical creation effort that goes into making a child.  Okay, 99.9%, but I’ll get back to that in a second. 

Both authors, due to their obvious emasculation fears, fell for the “abortion party” story hook, line, and sinker. As I noted when the controversy first arose, anyone who falls for this story is telling you more about their fears and gullibility than they are telling you about what actually happened at what was technically a fund-raising party for a college student who couldn’t pay for her own abortion.  Indeed, I’d say the young woman and her friends were being generous and honorable by raising the money themselves, so that there is more for other needy women that have to turn to abortion funds.  (I have more on that subject in this week’s podcast.)  The author of the “abortion party” piece made his anti-choice views clear with his digression about the 3-year-old.  His belief that the boyfriend was being outcast and abused seems to come more from his hopes than from the evidence at hand, since he admits that the abortion decision was mutual.  But he believes, against all evidence, that the boyfriend is being emasculated by a bunch of hard-drinking feminist harpies, and our bloggers today buy that, again, telling you more about their fears than about what feminists do.

Damon Linker was the one who really got on my nerves, starting with his self-congratulatory willingness to extend to women their basic human right to control their own body.  At least legally.  But he’s incredibly concerned that feminists are misleading women into being immoral towards men’s feelings, which is a legitimate concern, because as we all know, women are particularly weak-minded and easy to confuse, and unlike men, have no native moral sense.

The kind of feminists and progressives who would throw an “abortion party” and insist that the father of a fetus facing possible termination should have no say in its fate are thinking and behaving monstrously, I’m afraid, by applying political and legal considerations to a sphere of life (the private sphere) where morality should set the tone. They believe, perversely, that the best (and perhaps only) way to ensure that abortion remains legal and out of the political sphere is to treat abortion—and demand that men treat abortion—as a matter of moral indifference.

The straw is flying so furiously that it’s hard to see, but it’s still hard to miss his point about how women have so much trouble understanding their moral obligation to their impregnators, just because they have no legal obligations to them.  Which is bullshit, even using the evidence he has on hand. Even in the original abortion party story, which was sexist propaganda with obvious truth-fudging going on, noted that the decision for the abortion was mutually reached.  The boyfriend was made a part of it.  Frankly, I think that the original author and Linker just can’t imagine a man signing off on an abortion , and so they’re eager to believe that any sadness that a man experiences during an abortion process is due to a woman undoing what he did, and not because of other factors, like perhaps that he feels bad that he couldn’t help her out financially and so she had to throw a fund-raising party. 


Linker is very, very concerned that feminists are inculcating an immoral disdain for a man’s right to say what happens to his baby, even though it’s not a baby yet and it’s actually her pregnancy.  That feminists are giving women the impression that they don’t have to put up with it if a man tries to bully them out of their decision to abort.

But once again, abortion is not, and will never be, a matter of moral indifference. A man can fiercely defend a woman’s (public) right to choose an abortion without state interference while also passionately trying to persuade his girlfriend (in private) to carry their (not her) baby to term. In the end, she should be permitted to abort the child if he fails to convince her, even if he continues to object.

How very magnanimous of him to graciously allow that women should maintain legal ownership over their uterus even as they’re breaking a man’s heart by wielding her formal legal ownership over his moral stake in her body.  A couple of things are interesting here: Linker doesn’t seem to realize that men are just as capable of “passionately” persuading through guilt trips and badgering towards having an abortion.  At least Conor Friedersdorf got that right.  Linker is so worried about the perilous consequences to women who have abortions—-you might end up single (ominous music)—-that he doesn’t stop to think that men quite frequently are of the belief that they don’t want children right now just as much as women are.  I can’t say for certain why he’s got this blind spot, but the above Bill Hicks routine comes to mind as a likely diagnosis of the problem, especially since Linker makes sure that the thick-skulled ladies grasp that it’s “their” baby.  (Which is, at least, a step past the my/his language that Linker might have felt more comfortable using a couple decades ago.)  Linker seems to approach abortion with roughly the same attitude you’d have if you sold a painting you’d slaved over to someone, and then found out that they’re about to burn it. 

Thus the need for the Bill Hicks routine, and his strong reminder that impregnating someone isn’t exactly hard work.  Linker put more effort and cunning into writing this silly blog post than it takes to knock someone up.  Linker seems like he’d do well to laugh a little about the absurdity of reproduction, and remember that he probably has entire nations laying around in a gym sock somewhere.  You’d think that men only get one chance to create offspring, the way he works himself up. Or that semen is a precious commodity entrusted to women’s care, instead of something thoughtlessly tossed around in pursuit of other goals. 

Personally, I’m extremely concerned that Linker doesn’t understand the impact that his rights-based argument might have on male readers.  Yes, men may have the right to be complete dicks, who run roughshod over a woman’s feelings about having an abortion and spend all their time berating her, instead of maturely realizing that it’s for the best not to have a baby together unless the mother is all in.  I’m concerned that Linker isn’t educating young men on the morality of being an inconsiderate asshole who doesn’t take the time to wonder how scary it must be for a woman to be pregnant when she doesn’t want to be.  And while I fully support the right for men to lay a guilt trip on a woman who is getting an abortion, I’m worried that Linker will influence young men to think that their rights to free speech are hemmed in unless they thrash about as if this is the only chance they have to have a baby. 

Naturally, I’m going to be accused of not wanting women to consult with men in the event of an unplanned pregnancy.  But that’s not true.  I’m just annoyed that anyone is stupid enough to think that’s there’s some moral turpitude in young women of stealing off to destroy fetuses that men put entire minutes into inadvertently creating, and then I suppose having gossipy parties to talk about what fools men are or whatever we supposedly do.  The truth is that most women turn to the guy who got them pregnant first, and if they don’t, it’s often because they have a good reason.  For instance, they might be dating Damon Linker and know that he thinks that his right to act like a big baby over an abortion means he’s obligated to do so, in which case, I don’t begrudge them the moral right to sneak off and abort to avoid his “passionate” persuasion.  Not that Linker stopped to consider this in his high dudgeon about feminists lowering the morals of the women of America, but 48% of women getting abortions cite relationship issues or lack of a relationship as a reason they’re getting an abortion, a reality that makes his ominous threats that a relationship might end if a woman aborts over a man’s wishes sound even more comical. 

Obviously, women in solid, healthy relationships have a moral obligation to let their partners in on the decision, but they’re already doing that, because that’s what people do.  I honestly don’t know why abortion throws people off-balance.  An unplanned pregnancy is like any other major decision that can rock a couple’s relationship.  Most of these decisions affect one person more than the other, or at least one person has the real decision-making power here.  If my boyfriend got a job in L.A., we’d talk about it (a lot), and my input would be important to him, but at the end of the day, it’s his decision to make, and if there was an irreconcilable difference, so be it.  But that doesn’t mean he’s being some immoral bastard by retaining the right to make his own employment decisions for himself, both personally and legally.  Nor is there any great danger of him sneaking off in the middle of the night to LA without telling me, so preaching about his moral obligations to me seems more than a little stupid. 

On the flip side, sneaking off in the middle of the night to live in another city isn’t always wrong.  I’ve known one man to do it, actually, because his girlfriend was willing to passionately persuade him by breaking his shit every time he tried to break up with her.  But then again, my two differing examples involve men, who can be counted on to understand their own situations and act accordingly, instead of having to be subjected to a single moral rule that covers all situations.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:41 PM • (41) Comments

Men aren’t doing anything during a pregnancy.  They contribute literally nothing to the fetus’ development; they have no physical stake in it.  No sacrifice is demanded of them during that time period.  At best, they can—-not have to, but can—-contribute indirectly by providing for the woman in terms of needs or comfort.

This argument that they deserve to be able to demand that level of physical concession, with nothing required of them in return, is the epitome of Doin It Rong.  Harass her, threaten her, use legal force against her—-and then you expect her to do you a favor of that magnitude in return?  To say nothing of the fact that you’ve just proven yourself too immature and demanding to be ready for fatherhood, as well as a very undesireable partner!

If any man is so attached to the idea of THAT particular bit of sperm growing into his child, he can bloody well offer to contribute at least the amount of effective effort that he asks for from the woman.  Deal with the finances, so she doesn’t have to pay the monetary costs of pregnancy and childbirth.  Put physical and mental effort into seeing to her comfort.  Offer back massages and footrubs—-attentive ones, and lots of them.  Arrange for care and custody of the baby to be something she approves of, that doesn’t burden her beyond what she’s willing to contribute, and then stick to it.  And of course accept that it’s her life, and her choice, and not every woman is going to be willing to do that regardless of the price offered.

If he’s the one who wants the baby, he can be the one to shoulder the burdens, to pay and reimburse the prices of its creation.  If the burdens involved are too much for him, in the service of getting him something he wants, then how dare he demand of someone else what he’s not willing to pay, for something he wants and she doesn’t?

Comment #1: Kyra  on  07/23  at  08:15 PM

I’m still wondering what the guy in that original story was doing hanging around with a bunch of 22-year-old college students.  I remember the guys in their 30s who tried to hang out at college parties when I was in my early 20s, and they were uniformly creepy.

Comment #2: Mnemosyne  on  07/23  at  08:18 PM

His belief that the boyfriend was being outcast and abused seems to come more from his hopes than from the evidence at hand, since he admits that the abortion decision was mutual…..Even in the original abortion party story, which was sexist propaganda with obvious truth-fudging going on, noted that the decision for the abortion was mutually reached.  The boyfriend was made a part of it.

I’m hesitant to sign on to this, since in so many cases when the sexes are reversed it’s clear enough that “we decided this together” means “I pressured her to have an abortion/carry to term.” But you know what? I don’t give a fuck whether or not they decided together. It’s her body.

Comment #3: Rebecca  on  07/23  at  08:49 PM

* “when the sexes are reversed” = “when the girlfriend is the ambivalent one”

Comment #4: Rebecca  on  07/23  at  08:51 PM

Obviously, women in solid, healthy relationships have a moral obligation to let their partners in on the decision

What?  Why do you think so? I would tell a partner if I got pregnant and planned to have an abortion, just like I’d tell him if I had appendicitis or was thinking of quitting my job. I would tell him these things for my benefit, because he’s the person I do my complaining to, and the person I lean on for comfort in times of stress, and what’s the point of having a partner if you can’t vent your worries and frustrations, and let him do the same with you. But you’re saying these are obligations I have to him? Moral obligations? 

And yeah, Amanda, notifying or even letting male partners have a say in abortion decisions is “what people do,” that’s true. Living together, merging finances, and getting married are some more things that are “what people do.” I trust you’re not going to say that any woman who doesn’t do those things is shirking her fucking moral obligations to her man.

If my partner had an abortion without telling me, I’d feel hurt that she didn’t trust me or didn’t think I’d do anything to make it easier on her. If I decided that meant she’d shirked a moral obligation towards me, I’d be a monstrous prick. Keeping your medical decisions to yourself is not immoral.

Comment #5: sophonisba  on  07/23  at  09:29 PM

I can see a couple good reason for the boyfriend to be moping around at the party, if all the guests are her female friends coming over to help her out of a jam:

a) he’s gotta feel kinda crappy about having helped get his girlfriend into a personally and financially difficult situation and not having the resources to help get her out of it. (Yeah, there may be something a bit patriarchal about this, but so what?)

b) since he’s in this jam too, potentially to the tune of a large chunk of his income and/or time for the next 18 years, where the fsck are his friends, who should be helping him out by contributing? (Yeah, there are a lot of reasons in the current world why his friends wouldn’t be there; all of those reasons say bad things about the current world.)

Comment #6: paul  on  07/23  at  10:58 PM

Yeah, I can’t get in on the “if your relationship is for realz, you’ll tell your man that you’re going to abort.”

First of all, I’ve been on both sides of having some scary, life-altering shit go down (including a pregnancy scare) where I or my partner needed to see the matter clear on our own before we could let the other person in on it. It wasn’t an implication of our relationship: it was just a matter of privacy and how we managed that kind of stress. It sucks, but if that’s the sort of person you are and especially if your partner understands, than I really don’t see the problem in it.

Second, and this is more important: If you ask 99.9% of the women out there who are in broken, fucked-up relationships, they are not going to think of themselves as being in a broken, fucked-up relationship. They might think there are “certain issues” that still need hammering out, but even if she’s terrified to stay out more than 15 minutes beyond when she lets out of work lest he accuse her of slutting it up with her coworkers, she’s going to think that the relationship is solid. And even if she’s harboring doubts, she’s definitely not going to let on to the outside world that her relationship is less than 100% solid. By creating this line of reasoning where “Obviously, women in solid, healthy relationships have a moral obligation to let their partners in on the decision, but they’re already doing that, because that’s what people do” is more or less the same line of reasoning (IMO) as convincing every woman to declare that “she would NEVER have an abortion herself…” even if she wanted to keep it legal. If you talk this line of obligatory informed consent as a means of proving the legitimacy of the relationship, then you’re basically creating a social pressure on women to always consent no matter what because otherwise it’s a tacit admission that she was so flawed as a human being that she couldn’t have a perfect relationship with her boyfriend beyond the mildest of quirks. Which is downright impossible for a certain breed of woman.

So I prefer to make it about privacy: if she doesn’t tell her boyfriend, she has her reasons, and it’s none of my damn business what those reasons are…. I trust her judgment on the matter and won’t make any assumptions about the health of the relationship.

Comment #7: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/23  at  11:14 PM

There is nothing a man could offer to make me do it. Women rarely carry babies for minimal pay for other women, but if it’s for a man, it becomes a moral obligation.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  11:44 PM

Soph, I do think there’s something amiss if you hide big stuff from your partner. But I’m going to assume that if you can’t share, the relationship is over.

I’m on your side. My point is that most people know when the right thing to do is have the talk, and when you don’t owe that loyalty.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  11:48 PM

Mighty, Guttmacher’s research shows otherwise. Believe me, a pregnancy or even a scare can make you very realistic, if only for awhile. 48% shows women know the score. I would think that abortions aren’t necessarily a referendum on the relationship.

When I said that sometimes there’s an obligation, I was trying to make it clear that feminists are not out to get men. Point is, trust women. Most know when they ought to sit a guy down, and when he doesn’t deserve to be a part of it. Please read what I wrote, which can be summed up as: trust women.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/23  at  11:55 PM

This stuff is so dumb to me.

The normal guy concern isn’t that she might abort it, it’s that she might want to keep it.  That “she gets to choose to abort it if she wants” is like “if you get in an accident turning in front of oncoming traffic, it’s your fault”.  It’s a fairly easy to understand, hard and fast rule.  The harder thing to swallow is what happens if she wants to keep it.  But, even then, I think it’s something we need to condition young males to anticipate before they have sex.  It’s her choice.  If you can’t live with the possibility that she gets to choose what happens if she gets pregnant, you shouldn’t have sex.  That’s not a hard thing to condition people to understand. 

I am not the most feminist-friendly/abortion-friendly participant on this, and I can get my head around that.

That Bill Hicks thing was awesome.

Comment #11: Wallace  on  07/24  at  12:01 AM

I’m actually somewhat torn over what should happen if she chooses to keep it. Obviously, the abortion is her choice. But it seems like men should have a similar choice - if he doesn’t want to raise a child, he should be able to pay whatever it would cost for her to get an abortion at that point in time (including travel, compensation for missed work, etc). That money then goes to her - she can either use it to get an abortion if she doesn’t want to raise the child alone, or use it to offset the financial cost of the pregnancy.

Just as men don’t get ownership over women’s choices, it does seem like women shouldn’t get ownership over guy’s choices. Of course, the difference here is that the guy is just sacrificing money and whatever time/effort his conscious requires to have the kid, but still.

I’ve gotten the vibe that this isn’t cool in feminist circles, though. Could the lovely intelligent folks around here fill me in? Is this something that sounds reasonable? Am I missing some glaringly obvious flaw here?

Comment #12: jalmondale  on  07/24  at  12:19 AM

jalmondale,

Personally, I think you need to condition people to understand it’s the woman’s choice, and you shouldn’t have sex if you can’t live with that.  There is not short end of the stick.  In different ways, it’s shitty for both sides.  The guy’s burden is she gets to choose.  If you can’t live with that, don’t have sex.

Comment #13: Wallace  on  07/24  at  12:28 AM

Wallace: I wish that was true but I can think of at least three men I’ve known who bullied their girlfriends into having babies when they had wanted to terminate. In all cases, the relationships eventually fell apart (two of the women ended up cheating on the guy to precipitate an end to the relationship, the third was a teen pregnancy situation and they opted for adoption and they broke up shortly thereafter), the kids got stuck in a miserable situation, and I got treated to MRA-style rants about those awful, unnatural women.

jalmondale: because child support is an obligation to the CHILD not to the mother.  The CHILD has certain rights that don’t disappear and both mother and father have EQUAL* obligations to support the child.

* Yes, I know that child support is woefully inadequate and falls far below parity in contributions, MRA talking points aside.

Comment #14: history_mom  on  07/24  at  01:02 AM

jalmondale,

The reason it’s not cool is because child support is not a “hey lady, sorry I knocked you up” payment.  Child support is for the child.  That kid doesn’t deserve to live in poverty because dad didn’t want it and mom did, and dad told a judge, “well I offered her $400 for an abortion, not my fault she didn’t take me up on it!”  A human being, who had no say in whether or not it got conceived or born, will suffer for it.  One thing that everyone can agree on, pro-choice or not, is that a live birth results in a human being who needs to be cared for.  It is only right and proper that mom and dad, without both of whom the child wouldn’t have even been born, both contribute to that child’s well-being.

Comment #15: Denise  on  07/24  at  01:14 AM

jalmondale,

Just as men don’t get ownership over women’s choices, it does seem like women shouldn’t get ownership over guy’s choices. Of course, the difference here is that the guy is just sacrificing money and whatever time/effort his conscious requires to have the kid, but still.

Although I think it’s true that we should want to preserve both individuals’ autonomy wherever possible, male ownership of this particular choice would burden women far out of proportion with how women’s ownership burdens men.

When a woman carries a pregnancy to term, she sacrifices her body, its health, and her personal autonomy for at least nine months.  She risks her own life and, as Dr. Tiller’s assassination earlier this summer so aptly demonstrated, if her life is threatened by her pregnancy, her privacy and personal safety will be further threatened by the kinds of vicious misogynists that our government has so far failed to satisfactorily rein in.  She disrupts her employment, personal life, and (especially given how little is known about the safety of many drugs during pregnancy) potentially her ability to care for her own physical and mental well-being.  This is in addition to the further personal and financial demands of parenthood, which are shouldered disproportionately by mothers in relationships and out of them.

Although the personal and financial requirements of responsible fatherhood are no doubt also great, they pale in comparison to the sacrifices that must be made by mothers and which cannot physically be avoided.  Add to this the fact that we know mothers often end up providing most of the childcare even when they are in relationships, and all or nearly all when they become single mothers, and that even mothers receiving child support pay more than 50% of the costs of raising a child, and it becomes obvious that the potential demands made on men whose partners choose to continue a pregnancy simply don’t compare.

We are forced, therefore, to preserve the greater degree of personal choice and freedom where we can and, in this case, the mother’s interest is profoundly greater.

In addition, it’s problematic to allow men to avoid their long-term financial responsibilities for potential children by shelling out for a potential abortion.  Remember that we’re trying to preserve choice here—to carry an unplanned pregnancy to term as well as to end it—and consider that this option can easily be used as a form of coercion.  Although I might question the judgment of a woman who wanted to have a child she could support only with the help of a father who would do this, offering an amount comparable to the cost of an abortion and walking away allows men to pressure women to end unplanned pregnancies by rendering them (and the resulting children) unaffordable.

And anyway, the cost of an abortion varies—a lot—depending on how early or late it is performed.  If a woman attempts to carry the pregnancy to term, only to require a $6000 late-term abortion to save her own life, is her partner responsible then, or when he paid her $600 in hopes she’d have a first-term procedure?

Comment #16: themmases  on  07/24  at  01:16 AM

Jak, it’s simple. Abortion is about the right to terminate a pregnancy, a medical decision. Men and women have equal rights to control their bodies and equal obligations to raise your children. Women do not have a choice to neglect born children, and neither do men.  Men and women have a right to use known technology to control what happens to their bodies.

Does that make sense? Women do not have extra rights. Like men, they are required to care for real children.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  01:26 AM

I thought the trite meme was that women had abortions because the man involved forced her to?  When did that change?  Aren’t these the same MRAs that want to have the privilege of opting out of child support if the woman doesn’t get an abortion?

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  07/24  at  09:19 AM

Oh, and Jake?  If a woman is pregnant, then the guy made his choice - if he didn’t get a vasectomy or wear a condom, he made his choice insofar as his personal body is affected.

Comment #19: Ms Kate  on  07/24  at  09:21 AM

Amanda—I think that’s more or less what I was driving at, but I must have expressed myself inelegantly. Shocking, I know.

What I was trying to say is that when a woman is in a bad situation with her relationship, and she needs to have an abortion (or she’s afraid she might be), and there’s a part of her that is saying “don’t Don’t DON’T tell him!” then we need to make sure that she doesn’t have another voice on her shoulder saying “Y’know, if you don’t tell him, it’s because you’re in a broken, dysfunctional relationship.” Even if it’s absolutely true—if she can’t actually come to terms with that fact, we shouldn’t be creating static that makes it harder for her to do what she needs to do.

I’ve known a lot of women who had doubts who’ve been in bad relationships and went ahead with the pregnancy out of the hopes that a baby would change him into a good father. I’ve known women who dig in their heels and insist that “you don’t know him like I do” when you point out he’s a bully and possibly worse.

Our culture is steeped in this narrative that we aim primarily toward women that says “there is that one, that perfect one, for you out there, and without that person, you are incomplete and you’ll never be happy.” And so a lot of women (particularly women who don’t find themselves with a lot of options), when they meet a man and begin a relationship, expend a lot of mental and emotional energy convincing themselves that this guy is “the one” and that the relationship is everything Hollywood promised them. See all of the people I’ve mentioned above. See all the women who clearly fear being alone more than they fear being with an abuser. See all of the women who, when they describe something wretched that their boyfriend did, and you tell her “DTMFA”, declare “BUT I LOVE HIM!” as if that’s some sort of trump card immune to argument.

...And don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I think that persisting in that fantasy is a good idea, and I would totally burst the bubble…. but not any ol’ time. If she confided in me that she was pregnant, that she’s scared and hasn’t told him yet, and was having an abortion, I wouldn’t take that opportunity to point out that this says a lot about the state of their relationship because if she got defensive about it and decided that the fairy tale must be preserved and that could make shit a lot worse. I’d demure (if you can picture it), give her the emotional support and whatever else she needed, and wait until after she had seen clear of the crisis to ask her why (specifically) she didn’t want him to know and go from there.

And if we start circulating this “not telling your boyfriend is the sign of an incredibly dysfunctional, broken relationship” meme, it’s going to become like that damn “I would NEVER have one myself” theme, in which women have to present their credentials as a whole, stable person by doing something that would be directly against her interests so that she can continue to represent herself in a good light.

Really, what I want is for trained Planned Parenthood counselors to be available post-abortion to talk about this sort of shit. If a woman doesn’t have her boyfriend present at the abortion, they should just ask about that and then go from there.

Comment #20: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/24  at  09:29 AM

I get so tired of the “if the man doesn’t want it, he shouldn’t have to pay for it!” meme.

Women who have given birth to their children, and *then* decide they don’t want them, have to pay for them unless they can give them up for adoption, and if there is a father actively involved in the child’s life it is not legally possible for the woman to give the child up for adoption without his consent—either there needs to be no father involved in the child’s life or the father must give permission. If you run off to another state and leave your ex-husband to raise your kids, YOU WILL PAY CHILD SUPPORT. Your vagina does not give you a free “get out of child support” pass.

All either sex has is legal and moral control over their *own* bodies. If we lived in a futuristic society where a man could say to a woman, “You don’t want that baby? Give it to me, I’ll gestate it”, and the process of transferring it to him was no more dangerous than an abortion, it would probably be quite possible for men to get women into a position where they had to pay child support for a child they never wanted, because it would probably become illegal to get an abortion if the father of the child was willing to gestate it except in cases where he’s a rapist. But we don’t live in that world. We live in the world where once the man releases the sperm, it’s out of his body and he has no more control, and then once the woman gives birth, it’s out of her body and *she* has no more control. Being female does not get you out of paying child support to a baby once it is not in your body anymore.

The other thing to consider is the approximately five thousand year documented history of men being supreme dicks when they are given this choice. Men, you have proven, time and time again, that in aggregate YOU CANNOT BE TRUSTED with the choice to say “I don’t want to pay for the child, so I want my obligations to be discharged now and have no need to pay.” Biology gives men the power to walk away scot free from an act that can kill a woman and will most likely radically transform her life, when the decision to engage in that act was fully mutual on both parts… for there to be any equality at all, society needs to step in and ensure that there *are* consequences, of any kind, to men. Men cannot have an abortion for a woman, and while abortions are not as stressful, physically, as full-term pregnancies, they are not without physical cost… so why would a man get rights from signing a piece of paper that a woman gets from undergoing surgery or taking medication that gives her horrific cramping pains?

I *could* see the argument that men could go before a judge to argue hardship in order to have parental rights pre-emptively terminated. Maybe. But this would work kind of like teen girls trying to get the right to an abortion without their parents’ permission, because the assumption of pretty much everyone in our society, judges included, is that men who don’t make any money are losers and deserve mockery, and men who want to get out of paying child support are douchebags, so it is likely that this process would be unbelievably humiliating and usually would not work. And, I feel very, very strongly that men who are raped should never ever ever have to pay child support; they should be granted *full* and total custody of the child if they want it, and the right to give it up for adoption if they don’t, because RAPISTS DON’T DESERVE PARENTAL RIGHTS. If a woman rapes a man, and it is proven to be rape (which is easy to do in most cases of a woman raping a man because he’s usually 12 and only a man in the biological, sperm-producing sense… “he said, she said” cases involving woman on man rape almost never make it to court…), and she gets pregnant, the child should be taken from her at birth, the boy who was raped and his family given first option as to whether they want to keep the child, and if they don’t, adoption, straight up. No child deserves to be raised by a mother who is *known* to rape children.

But if it’s not rape, and let’s face it, women raping men is such an infinitesmally tiny percentage of sex acts that result in pregnancy that I’m not sure why MRAs dwell on those cases so much, then men do not have the right to get out of paying child support once their role in the production of that child is done, because neither do women. Women only have the right to abortion because the child is being produced in their body. It gives them a longer window of time to decide “no, I don’t want this”, but it also gives them physical, biological effects that men just never suffer, ever. And since men have proven that they *will* have sex without protection and walk away from the results, leaving women and children in poverty, if they are legally permitted to… because that’s what they’ve been doing for five thousand years… they cannot be given the legal right to do so.

Comment #21: Alara J Rogers  on  07/24  at  10:11 AM

My standard response to the “It’s not fair that women get to decide” trope is, “Well, it’s not fair that women deal with menstruation and pregnancy but we don’t have a whole lot of say about that.  The whole reproductive system isn’t “fair”. You can take that up with your “God”.

Comment #22: BadKitty  on  07/24  at  10:34 AM

This has always been my take on it:

Yes, there is a sense in which it is unfair that a man can be made to financially support a child he would have preferred not to have. But it is less unfair than the other two options, which are 1) he gets to compel the woman to have an abortion, or 2) the party with no choice in the matter—the child—goes without sufficient support and care.

Comment #23: Karalora  on  07/24  at  10:35 AM

Mighty, that’s really hair-splitting my point, I think, but to address what you’re saying anyway: Well, of course I’m not going to use someone’s immediate neediness to bully her about her bad relationship.  But never ever stating in public (not to an individual in crisis) that if you can’t even rely on him for support for a medical procedure, then your relationship is fucked?  No, that’s going too far.  We can’t control for every possible negative reaction to what we might say, or else we will have to be quiet.  People don’t come to the conclusion that they’re in fucked up relationships 100% on their own.  Creating counternarratives to the Twue Wuv narrative is necessary. 

But really, I’m shocked that anyone’s jumping on me about this.  It’s true, isn’t it, that most women who get abortions talk to men about it?  It’s true that it’s tempting to just abort and never tell him, but most women don’t, and why?  Because they feel that intimacy requires openness, and especially so with decisions that affect both of your interests.  This is morality. 

That’s all I’m saying.  Linker, etc. are working under the belief that women are so morally inferior that they need one simple rule to follow, because they have no native moral sense.  I’m pointing out that reality shows otherwise, that women do the right thing instead of the easy thing most of the time.  And that when women behave differently than Linker demands, it’s also usually the moral thing to do, because self-preservation is a moral imperative. 

What we’re talking about is the morality of lying, basically.  If you continue in a relationship with a man after an abortion, you are lying by omission.  And lying isn’t always wrong, of course.  Lying for self-preservation is a moral obligation.  But in normal, healthy situations, lying is repulsive to people, and for a good reason.  If you find yourself having to lie about an abortion to your partner, then yeah, that’s a giant fucking red flag that you need to work out.

But my point, and I can’t reiterate this enough, is that Linker and company’s assumption that women are morally flawed and will lie for the hell of it, or otherwise bully and hoodwink men, is offensive and sexist.  Women aren’t born liars who have to be bullied out of it.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  11:04 AM

Continue after hiding an abortion, that is. And I fully trust that women, being full human beings, can tell if their reasons are moral. So I can assure readers that women aren’t out to get men with the fear that I’m going to break someone.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  11:15 AM

Sorry, I’m going to disagree with you Amanda.  I’ve had 4 pregnancies (2 abortions, 1 miscarriage and 1 birth) all with the same man.  He was a part of one abortion decision and not the other and to this day I’ve never mentioned the second abortion to him.  When I had my first abortion I included him and my family in the decision.  The second time I simply made an appointment and went.  The best reason I can give is that continuing a pregnancy at that time simply wasn’t up for discussion.  With anyone, not him, not my family, hell I didn’t even tell my friends.  I wasn’t conflicted, I knew what I wanted to do and I did it.  I’ll agree it is a lie by omission but I won’t agree that in every single case it is a red flag that there is something wrong with the relationship.  I’m still with this man and in December we will celebrate 26 years together.  Women have good reasons to tell or include the man or not and I refuse to second guess any woman’s decision because I will always trust that they have made the best one for them.

Comment #26: Pockysmama  on  07/24  at  11:59 AM

pockysmama, you just more or less AGREED with Amanda. Who said, and I quote:

And that when women behave differently than Linker demands, it’s also usually the moral thing to do, because self-preservation is a moral imperative.

and

Continue after hiding an abortion, that is. And I fully trust that women, being full human beings, can tell if their reasons are moral.

For whatever good reason (we are trusting that it’s a good reason) you felt that not telling your partner about the second abortion was right and necessary. We might not understand it, we might not tolerate a relationship that worked that way ourselves. But we will be damned if some asshole out of Ohio is going to FORBID you to have that choice.

Comment #27: Well, what?  on  07/24  at  12:09 PM

You’re right, I read it wrong.  Sorry, I’m going for more coffee and noting to self not to post before 10 am.

Comment #28: Pockysmama  on  07/24  at  12:29 PM

When I say that I trust women, I don’t mean that 100% of women make 100% of the best choices all the time.  But I am saying that women shouldn’t be considered morally inferior to men.  Linker and Will Saletan and other pro-choice concern trolls operate under the assumption that we should be especially cautious about women’s choices, which can be assumed (in their eyes) to be less sound on average than men’s choices.  I reject this.  I reject the idea that Will Saletan is the final judge of right and wrong, that he never makes mistakes. 

These discussions are always conducted, too, under the incorrect assumption abortion is the more morally fraught choice than childbirth.  I strongly disagree.  I think childbirth, which brings another person with needs and pain into the world, is what needs stronger moral justification.  If you regret an abortion and decide you do want a baby, you can always try again.  But you can’t undo it if you regret having a child.  Therefore, the latter regret is more profoundly problematic, and child-bearing is a more fraught decision. 

What I simply thought was funny was this: Linker was completely horrified by the idea of women who don’t consult their partners on abortion decisions, but was blase about a man who bullies a woman he got pregnant as if he has some claim to her body.  Which is fucked up, because the first behavior is one that happens under morally justifiable circumstances all the time (the relationship is over/never really a relationship, he’s abusive or a bully, it’s so unimportant to both of you that it’s like dwelling over what you had for lunch), but the latter is obviously a dick move.  The set of circumstances required for a man to have a moral right to pressure a woman who obviously wants an abortion are very narrow—-I can at least see having a calm discussion if he’s infertile and this is likely a once in a lifetime accident, but even then, he should be calm and cognizant of the fact that this is another person’s body and asking this of them is like asking for a kidney.  Outside of that, I can’t think of a morally justifiable reason to do anything but accept that this is what she wants to do.  If, down the road, she wants to have a baby with you, there will be another chance.  If she doesn’t and you do, then this is a time to separate and find more suitable partners, which isn’t a “consequence”, as Linker ominously suggests.  Nor is it a reason to try to persuade.  You either accept her decision about the pregnancy and all its implications or don’t.  Being a dick about it doesn’t have a justification.

But I’m not going to be a caricature and say that I think all women are morally sound 100% of the time.  Women lie, cheat, and steal.  A woman could have very nasty reasons to lie about an abortion to her partner.  She could get off on having a secret, she could be cheating, she could be misleading him about her willingness to have children for some reason.  But even allowing for this, there’s no reason to be especially paranoid about abortion.  All these lies just show that it’s probably best a child wasn’t created from this union.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  01:13 PM

Also, I doubt that most women who conceal abortions have bad reasons, I’m just allowing that it’s possible.  My point is that women are no better or worse than men.  But since we trust men, we should trust women.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  01:14 PM

I guess words like “self-preservation” in Amanda’s comments are throwing me off here, making it sound like it could only be moral to not include a partner in the decision under dire, life-or-death circumstances. If you’re set on your decision, as a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, I don’t see why the situation should be made more stressful for the woman terminating by having to have a “conversation” about it with anyone else. I think that almost no romantic relationships have 100% transparency, and considering that the scenario of a female partner terminating a pregnany the male partner doesn’t know about has no ramifications for the male partner, I’m not sure why this is any different than any other incident in your life that you don’t necessarily bring up to your partner. If 100% transparency is a romantic relationship model that works for you, that is wonderful, but I think it is uncool to condemn serious, caring relationships that just don’t necessarily operate under that model. Sorry if I’m being dense here and missing something—I’ve been reading Pandagon for years and this is the first thing that has ever moved me to comment.

Comment #31: WeetzieBat  on  07/24  at  01:15 PM

When I say that I trust women, I don’t mean that 100% of women make 100% of the best choices all the time.

Correct, but trusting them is obviously predicated on the assumption that MOST women will make a moral choice MOST of the time. And we think that the law should be predicated upon this assumption as well.

If I knew in detail pockymama’s reasons for concealing her abortion, I might disagree that they were right, or good, or ideal. But in seeing the following: “woman seeks to abort a pregnancy, has not consulted partner, does not appear troubled by this” my default position will always be: She clearly has her reasons and they aren’t mine to question.

I think I only meant to point out to pockymama that your opinion, or my opinion, or really anyone’s opinion about her relationship (other than that of her and her partner) has no bearing on whether or not she should be trusted to obtain a medical procedure without consulting anyone else. I too was lacking full caffeination at the time, though…

Comment #32: Well, what?  on  07/24  at  01:24 PM

Of course we assume most people are the best people to make their own choices.  I just worry that if you interpret “trust women” in another way that hints that women are better choice-makers than you’d guess from a random sample of human beings, you’re going to get people dragging out hard to defend choices as evidence that women can’t be trusted. 

But in seeing the following: “woman seeks to abort a pregnancy, has not consulted partner, does not appear troubled by this” my default position will always be: She clearly has her reasons and they aren’t mine to question.

As is mine, and I’m going to assume pockymama had her reasons for that reason.  But having a vague default position puts you in a situation where an anti-choicer will start digging around for specifics.  Is it okay if a woman lies because she’s a cheater?  Is it okay if she lies because she’s trying to make her male partner believe she’s open to children when she’s not?  I was trying not to get so general that I’m clearly full of shit, because you’re easy to dismiss.  But admitting that some women make immoral decisions doesn’t mean the “trust women” principle is invalidated, and if you admit that upfront instead of letting an anti-choicer have a space to attack you, you come from a much stronger position.

I guess words like “self-preservation” in Amanda’s comments are throwing me off here, making it sound like it could only be moral to not include a partner in the decision under dire, life-or-death circumstances.

I hate to be arch, but in a conversation about extending women the benefit of the doubt, I’d like some.  As a pro-choicer, I believe that women’s lives need to be defended beyond just their physical health.  That’s why I joked that not telling Linker you’re aborting a pregnancy he causes seems reasonable to me.  He’s already made it clear that he’d be a dick about it. 

But let’s face it—-most people believe lying is wrong when there aren’t extenuating circumstances.  Linker, etc.‘s argument is that feminists are so fucking crazy that we think that abortion is so precious that the usual moral rules of how to treat your intimates and how to be honest are put on hold.  I was simply pointing out that no one thinks this and no one behaves as if they think this.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  05:25 PM

Weetzie, if you’re in a relationship where your partner wouldn’t feel horribly betrayed by the omission, then okay.  I could see a guy simply not caring what you do, though I can’t imagine myself in such a relationship, because I’d be hurt that he doesn’t care that I’m going through something that is pretty important.  I think my boyfriend needs to know about and support my cavity drillings.  Plus, you can’t have sex for a couple of weeks at least after an abortion, which means that once you start with the one lie about the abortion, then there will be follow-up, compounding lies.  Unless you don’t have sex very often.

There’s things about our partners’ past we politely ignore, because what’s past is past.  We don’t read diaries or email, because private thoughts and correspondence are easy enough to misunderstand and may not have a direct relationship with the real world.  I never said that people don’t have privacy. But there is a general category of things that are understood as something you talk about—-if you cheated, if you change jobs, if you decide to start sleeping on the floor.  Abortion isn’t small for 95% of people.  It’s not necessarily huge or tragic.  It won’t change your life necessarily, but I think it goes into the category of things that one generally speaks about with a partner.  If not, then that’s unusual and there’s a reason for it. 

There might be very unusual people that the don’t ask/don’t tell method of fertility management works for, but most people who have sex together and are in a steady, healthy relationship have some kind of partnership model of fertility control.  My post merely reflected that fact.  I think men are well within their rights to expect women to include them in knowing about what’s going on with their fatherhood status in relationship to her, and was trying to address their concerns, which they are entitled to.  Writing about the few men who don’t care and couple up with women who don’t tell, and not the general one that thinks that men have a right/responsibility relationship towards pregnancies they cause or could cause, would be weird.

A man can want to know and be supportive without trying to control it.  Validating their existence is important, or else we’ll become caricatures of man-hating feminists.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  05:36 PM

“Look, dude, you’re not shooting blanks.  And sometimes you have to pay for a broken window, even if you play it safe.”

Comment #35: Crissa  on  07/24  at  06:39 PM

I’m just annoyed that anyone is stupid enough to think that’s there’s some moral turpitude in young women of stealing off to destroy fetuses that men put entire minutes into inadvertently creating

...in some cases SECONDS!

Comment #36: Danica Lefse Queen  on  07/24  at  09:37 PM

Well, as an artist, all I can say is if you want to buy my paintings and burn them, at least I’ve got my prescription copays covered for a while.

Comment #37: Samantha Vimes  on  07/24  at  10:05 PM

What I mean to say is, once the painting is yours, it’s up to you what you do with it.

Comment #38: Samantha Vimes  on  07/24  at  10:08 PM

Samantha, you could have sold them with a contract of what is acceptable use of your art.  It’s not outside the realm of the possible… All the art I’ve bought has had a written or verbal contract limiting its use or display on the internet or commercially.

That said, I don’t see how anyone has the right to say someone else doesn’t have the right to remove the bodily fluids spilled upon their person…

Comment #39: Crissa  on  07/24  at  11:01 PM

Wow, I guess my comment above hit a nerve (or perhaps what I thought was a polite request for ideas didn’t come across that way). A couple things that I found disturbing/odd:

1) I’ve apparently become ‘Jake’ and a (male) MRA. Particularly odd since the point of my gender-neutral pseudonym was to prevent being dismissed for being a girl (not a concern I had about here, but I just adopted the handle I’ve used on other sites).

2) The “you shouldn’t have sex if you can’t live with that” meme is surprisingly similar to what forced-birthers say about pregnancy and sex. I thought this was a group that realized that birth control isn’t perfect, and that punishments for having sex weren’t cool.

3) Withholding financial support for child = coercion idea. Sorry, but saying that you don’t want to be a parent seems like a valid position to take. Telling the woman she’s going to be raising the kid herself is not coercion, it’s simply stating a fact. If she doesn’t want to become a single mother (but might have been ok raising the kid with the current partner), then she might get an abortion after that. But it doesn’t seem like this is something men should be *legally* prevented from doing (that it’s kind of a dick move to pull on someone you supposedly care about just because you feel like it, sure, but I think ‘trust men’ needs to be a correlary to ‘trust women’).

To clarify, since a couple folks seemed unclear on what I was saying: yes, a woman’s choice to have/not have an abortion should be completely hers to make (I’m not presenting one party’s rights trumping the other as some sort of dichotomy).

I would like to thank the people who put forth the ‘obligation to the child’ point, as it’s one I hadn’t considered (special thanks to the people who answered without being snarky/condescending).

Karalora makes the most concise summary of the issue that the paper-abortion problem creates:
“1) he gets to compel the woman to have an abortion, or 2) the party with no choice in the matter—the child—goes without sufficient support and care.”

Would making the paper-abortion more like a paper-surrendering-to-the-state law be ok? There are many states that allow new mothers to give up their children to the state/hospital for no cost, with the idea that forcing someone to provide for a child is generally not good for the child or the parent (called Safe Haven laws). Could the father cede responsibility to the state, which is now on the hook for child support, in addition to paying for the abortion? This avoids option 2 (option 1, obviously, is not cool), while still acknowledging that, while there’s is no way to terminate a pregnancy free of cost (either via abortion of birth), becoming responsible for another human being is still something you should get to choose about, regardless of gender.

I get that reproductive systems are not fair, but generally the goal of social systems is to make things more fair, to the extent possible, and perhaps spreading the cost of children across all of society is not a bad thing.

Comment #40: jalmondale  on  07/25  at  08:27 PM

jalmondale, I’m glad you asked that question - it’s something I’ve wondered about, too. I generally reach the same conclusion you did - in the current system, there really isn’t a perfect solution. Just as pregnancy shouldn’t be enforced on women as The Consequence of having sex, neither should child support be required from men as The Consequence of having sex, condom or no (not to mention, condoms aren’t 100% effective).
However, while there is a viable alternative to pregnancy for women - abortion - there is not a viable alternative to paying child support for men, and here we are. If the government stepped in to pay 50% of growing-up fees, in exchange for total loss of parental rights, that would be ideal. Of course, I also think the government should pay for abortions. But then, I’m socialist scum.

Comment #41: Zef  on  07/26  at  02:36 AM
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